The Bill Simmons Podcast - Luka and Zion Concerns, the Feel-Good Cavs, and Panic-Trade Predictions With Jackie MacMullan

Episode Date: December 15, 2021

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Jackie MacMullan to discuss Luka Doncic coming into the season out of shape and Zion Williamson's injury setback and weight concerns. They also discuss some possible trade teams, including the 76ers, Pacers, Knicks, and Pelicans, before getting into the fourth-place Cavaliers, the Hawks' defensive struggles, Anthony Davis, and more. Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Jackie MacMullan Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It is called Juice World Into the Abyss. It is directed by Tommy Oliver. It is really tremendous. Hope you check it out. It's also available on HBO Max as well. We only have one guest today. It's Jackie McMullen. We're going to talk NBA.

There's a lot to cover. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right. Jackie McMullin is here taping this Tuesday morning. Rainy day in LA. I don't know what the weather's like in Boston. Weird times in the NBA. I'll say.

A lot of topsy-turvy stuff. I want to start here because I haven't talked about this on the podcast yet. We have Luka and we have Zion. These two guys that we were thinking were potentially the future of the league, along with Giannis and a couple others. If you're looking at the 27 and unders, uh, Luca shows up out of shape and he's battled a bunch of injuries and just looks too, he's looked too heavy all year. And it's really disappointing. We can talk about it in a second. The Zion thing is more alarming because we have this foot injury that we found out about right before the season. They were kind of like, yeah, he probably will be ready for start of the season. We knew that

wasn't true because it was a Jones fracture. There were sites of him just looking way bigger than he used to. And there's all kinds of varying reports on how much he weighs. Now we found out there's a setback. That team sucks. Odds are they shelve him for another season, it looks like. And he has an extension coming up. This is the first time, and I was all in on him. I was like, I don't know what you guys are seeing. I think this guy has a chance to be a generational offensive player. The question was, can he stay on the court? I'm starting to get really, really worried. I don't think I'm alone. Where do you stand? What have you heard? Well, when you start having reports that you weigh 330 pounds

and you're not an offensive lineman for the New York Giants or something, you're in trouble. And, you know, our eye test, right? There's always the eye test. And we've talked about this a thousand times. Sometimes guys look big and they look overweight and they're not.

That's just not true with Zion. Yeah. He was playing too big even when he was healthy. And he's a force to be reckoned with. I can see why everybody falls in love with him. He's got a great personality. You know, he should be one of these guys you're talking about. One of these generational players that we're going to have on the cover of all those video games that everybody loves so much. But there was just the thing, the thing about him aside from the weight, because I

do think it's related somehow is, you know, at the end of last year, there was stuff, reports coming out of his camp. I never know what that means. His family unhappy with Stan Van Gundy. So he's gone, you know, he's out and, and now, you know, unhappy with the way the Pelicans have handled things. Well, hold on a minute here. How about the way you're handling things? Because ultimately, you're responsible for your own body. And I've watched this for 40 years now in sports. And back in the day, in the old school days,

it was up to you to take care of yourself during the offseason because teams didn't have 14 trainers and they couldn't afford to send someone to have a state-of-the-art facility that you could show up to every day. Zion has all of these things at his disposal, not to mention a multi-million dollar contract with a shoe company that you think would be invested

in making sure that he's training properly and eating properly. Every team has one or more nutritionists. So I think particularly in this day and age, Bill, that it's come to this for him is extremely alarming because there is help everywhere you turn. All you have to do is ask. Or if you're the team, you should be proactive and require it. So, yes, I do think this is a major problem, a major problem for the Pelicans. And, you know, he's one of those guys,

and we talk about this all the time, these great young players, Donovan Mitchell at the Utah Jazz. You know, he signed the extension. Will he stay? Will he end up happily ever after there? Trey Young with the Atlanta Hawks, he's become the face of that franchise. And, you know, they're having troubles now. We could talk about that if you want.

I do. Okay. We are. And we should. Later. Right. But my point is, these are the guys that, you know, you're supposed, are you going to, are we convinced they're going to live happily ever after in their market? Didn't you realize from the day one with Zion, that dude had New York City in his eyes, stars in his eyes about being somewhere else almost from the beginning. So if I'm the Pelicans, I am really, really bummed out for a lot of reasons. This is an amazing sliding doors thing for them

with all the ways the team they could have put together could happen versus how it happened, where you have... well, let's start with the Zion physical piece. The older I get, and I'm sure you hit this point at some point as you're recovering the league where you just kind of see the same patterns over and over again. And all right, what, what, what constitutes success for somebody? What constitutes greatness? What are, what are like the things you need? And I think as I look at somebody like Zion, he has all these role models around the league where you can look at somebody like LeBron

and you go, all right, that guy, all he cares about is putting his body in the optimal shape to be good. And that's it. And now it's year 19 for him. And he's still an elite player. You look at somebody like Giannis, who just has it, like he just gets it. And that's still an elite player. You look at somebody like Giannis who just has it,

like he just gets it. And that sounds like this dumb media thing where you're like, Oh, I wish all the guys were like Giannis. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying Giannis gets it. He wants to get better. He understands how important his body is, how staying in shape is, and he's getting that. He's maximizing whatever his potential is. And we see that if you watch the man in the arena about Brady, same thing, right? You see Brady scrambling on Sunday. He's maximizing whatever his potential is. And we see that if you watch the man in the arena about Brady, same thing, right? You see Brady scrambling on Sunday. He's faster now than he was when he was 24 because he's optimizing everything he can get out of his body.

And I think that's why Zion and Luke, I feel like it's the same conversation for each. Luke is not as bad as Zion. I think Zion has, he's already had some major injuries. Luca has not, but to not understand, even at a young age, this is my body. This is my life. I have a chance to be truly great. And to just not be in shape is like unfathomable to me. We have so much evidence now. We have so many decades. This isn't Larry Bird in the mid eighties, you know, because they trade Rick Roby. He's decides to not drink beer as much. Like we know all this stuff now we have all these tools. We have cryo chambers and hyperbaric chambers and yoga and Pilates, and we know how to eat. And like Haralba was on the podcast a couple of weeks ago, talking about how Luca loves sweet

tea and the Dallas locker. I'm like, great athletes shouldn't drink sweet tea, you know? And I, I'm just, I know these guys are young, but I'm also amazed they don't get it. Well, and I think the problem for Luka, it's compounded by the fact he goes home. He goes home in the summer to Slovenia, where he's an absolute God. And he's, he's an absolute God here in this country pretty much too. But he goes home there.

And, you know, I went back and looked because I thought I'll give Luke a credit for being so very honest and saying, you know what? I played in the Olympics. I took three weeks off. I relaxed. Maybe I relaxed a bit too much. At least he's owning it to a certain degree.

You get points with me for that. But I went back and looked because this was very familiar to me because last December, do you remember? I don't know if you remember this. Mark Cuban did an interview and he said, well, I can explain why Luca looks heavy to you guys, why he looks out of weight.

You know, he was all set to train with the Slovenian national team. And, you know, then COVID hit. So he couldn't train with the Slovenian national team. So what? He can't train at all? Right. So, you know, he's just getting seven big backs right so again here's my point so i think it's always been a problem when guys go home and they and they they

they're relying on themselves now if i were the dallas maverick not not a problem for yokich by the way yokich has somehow managed to figure it out yeah but he didn't early on and that's the point i'm going to make with both of these guys. They're very, very young. Go back and look at a young Tom Brady. I was standing, Bill, three feet from him when he had his hands on his head when they won the first Super Bowl. He did not look what he looks like now. And he was a hell of a lot younger.

Somewhere along the way, he started to realize this was part of gaining an edge, you know, and that's what it is, gaining an edge. Giannis gets that right now. I really do. I think he 100% gets it. But not everybody does right. Like Russell Westbrook always got it, right? But not everybody gets it right out of the box.

And if you're Luka, you're one of the best players in the world, whether you drink sweet tea or not. Now, maybe, maybe now he's realizing, because he's out with ankle soreness, he's okay. I've got to, I got to, I got to change this a bit. He's got a new coach. He's got an owner that, you know, swears by him. So maybe they sit down and say, look, when you go home to Slovenia this summer, you're going home with some extra people. And there, and because we know you

want to work, but sometimes when you get home, you get comfortable. Now, Zion, that to me is a completely different situation because the injuries are serious, number one. He hasn't even established himself enough, hasn't played enough to really establish himself, number two. And clearly the trust between the player and the organization is nowhere near the same as it is in Dallas with Cuban and with Doncic. So I think, you know, one is very, very precarious. The other one to me, it can be solved. I mean, there's other players we've seen as they went through their careers that realized, I mean, again, not everybody's Ray Allen, right?

Ray Allen played as long as he did because he was meticulous and he has OCD. He was meticulous in everything. He ate everything he did. And I've always argued, too, with Kobe Bryant, the most underrated part of all his considerable skills was his longevity. Longevity is a great underrated skill, and it takes a tremendous amount of work.

And that's why you do have to look at LeBron and say, well, pretty amazing. It's maintenance, right? It's like, if you have a nice car that, you know, you have like some old classic car, that car has to be in a garage and covered.

And you gotta eat. That's what these bodies are like. Tom Brady is an interesting one because, you know, the, the first couple of Superbowls that run in the, in the first half of the two thousands, he's hanging out with Will McDonough and Kevin Brady, and they're going back Bay five nights a week. And he talks about it in the run in the first half of the 2000s. He's hanging out with Will McDonough and

Kevin Brady, and they're going back bay five nights a week. And he talks about it in the man in the arena. He's like, I realized at some point, everything I was doing off the field affected the results on the field. And I wanted what happened on the field so badly that I realized I had to change what I did off the field. And that's why I give Luka a mulligan. And I'm much more concerned about the Zion thing. Do you know how many games Zion has played? What do you think off the top of your head? How many NBA games?

25 or something? Maybe a little more. Am I off a little bit? No, he's had two seasons. Okay, I'm thinking last year. 25 last year. So 54. Yeah, 85 total. He hasn't even cracked 100 games yet. See, to me, in my

mind, he isn't there at all. You know, he's just not there at all. So I'm going low on that. Imagine that I'm going low on that number. I was thinking 25 games last year. How many did he play last year? Do you have it? So he is 61 last year. He's pretty healthy and he was in decent shape. Not incredible. Isn't that funny? I don't remember him ever that way because I just look at him and I guess maybe I was one of the ones that came in with the preconceived notion that you're, you're carrying too much weight to be an effective NBA player for long. You know, Charles Barkley is another person we should mention. Charles Barkley came in as the round monitor rebound actually gained 25 pounds on purpose. So the Sixers wouldn't draft him. It didn't work. Moses Malone finally got a hold of him. He got in at

some point in his career when he was in Philly and a bit in Phoenix in tremendous shape. And then, of course, let it go near the end in Houston. So which is why he done why Carl Malone probably passed him on the all time list because he had these extra years that that's right. Body way more seriously. Barkley is a good example. Barkley also had Dr. J and Moses and Andrew Tony and Mo Cheeks. And he's talked about how much it meant to have that infrastructure. They had a major influence on him. You go back to New Orleans, and this is like the sliding doors thing, where basically every move they make doesn't work out, right? They have the fourth pick in the draft.

Darius Garland, who we're going to talk about Cleveland after the break, like they could have just taken Darius Garland. They could have, they could have taken DeAndre Hunter. They trade back and, you know, they get Alexander Walker and Jackson Hayes, whatever, whatever that trade turned out to be. But there was like blue chippers on the board. They had a blue chipper in Drew Holiday and they banked on, you know, maybe Giannis doesn't stay in Milwaukee. Maybe we'll get these picks.

And it was always the promise of what's to come. They could have put together a really nice team around these guys. They had Lonzo. They had Lonzo Ball. I was going to say. Lonzo's a winning player.

They had him. And they couldn't forget he was a winning player. They had multiple coaches, you know, that just the turmoil The situation And you know

I think Griffin It's one of the all time bad jobs I think he did an okay job In Cleveland But it's one of the all time bad jobs In New Orleans Like they are In a horrible place

The Zion thing Is a complete disaster They don't seem like To have any oversight of him And now you're looking at Okay he's due for an extension. What are you going to do there? How are you possibly going to give him an extension? The Denver Michael Porter thing,

that would scare the shit out of me for life for any other extension where it's like, all right, here's a guy with red flags everywhere. Oh, fuck it. Let's just do it. Or you could have just waited. Yeah. I mean, it's amazing when you think about all these players, these young players with these serious, serious problems at the age of 21, 22. And that makes me go back to some... I remember I did a story a few years back about, you know, peak performance.

That basically was the gist of it. And the idea of overtraining in AU games and how when kids are young, the mileage they put on their bodies, they don't even know they're doing it and no one is overseeing it. And he used Michael Porter as an example. Now, I don't know if that's fair or unfair. I really don't know because I haven't been around Michael Porter's training staff.

I wasn't there at his AU games. But, you know, a kid like Zion, you wonder about the pounding and the miles you put on before you've even gotten to this part of the league where it gets really difficult, really fast. And some of the old school guys talk about that sometimes. You know, I wasn't playing eight games a weekend and traveling 300 miles to do it in my parents' station wagon. You know, there's just it takes a toll. And that's the other thing, too, is we we talk about game management.

And it's interesting to me that all these players and teams that know better are still letting, like Kevin Durant, for instance, play 36 or 37 minutes a night. That's crazy. Right? Crazy. But that's Nash being like a warrior who's like, I was a great player. I get it. But I would be really more careful with Durant. I just don't.

Because we have all this data now. And I know people hate data, but it's valuable. We have data that tells us that rest is important, that, that, that load management is a real thing, that pop isn't crazy. Why anyone would ever doubt pop anyway? You know? Well, the wear and tear thing with kids, I remember that piece you wrote, it was really good. And I have a, I have a couple of friends who had kids playing in AU basketball and they would tell me about what the weekend was like. And I just couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe how many games there were in one weekend.

And it wasn't like when I was at Holy Cross and Joe House and I would play intramurals for three hours. We weren't then getting up and doing that the next day for another seven hours, you know? And I think there's such pressure. There's so much money at stake and they just constantly more and more games, more and more. Let's go.

Let's go. And we're, you know, we're off on a little tangent here, but so my daughter played AAU basketball and my daughter was a very fine high school athlete. She was not a great basketball player. In fact, basketball is probably her worst sport. The one she loved the most. She wanted to play AAU, but we just were not committed as a family to doing that kind of pace.

Yeah. Practice required. And then the travel required. And plus, she wasn't good enough. Let me state that first and foremost. She was not going to get a college scholarship, no matter how many tournaments we played in. She was very fortunate to get to play at a Division III school and have herself a great time. But what we ended up doing was joining an AU team that we actually formed among the parents, where we practiced at a local gym. We had study hall the first hour. I ended up being like a, not really a coach, more of an assistant volunteer,

if you will. And if you didn't have your homework done the first hour, you were in the gym, you were in the classroom next to the gym getting your work done. Now, this is all well and good for kids. We weren't an entirely white team, but mostly suburban white kids whose parents could pay for college. Now think about young kids from the inner city, but mostly suburban white kids whose parents could pay for college. Now think about young kids from the inner city, whether they're white or black, whose families can't afford it. And the pressure becomes, I need to go to Zayu's turns because this kid needs to be discovered. Otherwise, he or she can't go to college because we can't afford it. And it's just, it's a scary, scary, but that's, we're, we're off on a tangent. We don't need to go down that rabbit hole. But I think the wear and tear of Zion, plus like

we have pretty good ways now of just looking at somebody's running style, their gait, the stress they put on different parts of their bodies. And they're, they, people are always worried about Zion. There were always these, you know, YouTube doctor detectives who would break down these clips. And like, I don't like the way he, he puts a lot of pressure on the outside of his legs. I'm at the point with Zion where, um, I'm about to drop a pretty big question on you, but we're going to take a break. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey.

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Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. All right, coming back. Here's my Zion question. Because I don't think New Orleans can give him that extension. That actually could be the end of basketball in New Orleans. Now, maybe that's okay. Maybe it's time for them

to get out of that market and go to Seattle or Vegas or whatever. Fair point. If you're a team like the Knicks, and you basically botched last summer in a whole bunch of different ways, and you're kind of in no man's land, you're one of the 10 worst teams in the league now. Randall, you made a bet on hoping that last year was who he was,

and it turns out last year was probably a little bit of an aberration. And the guy we saw in the playoffs, who was horrendous, that's not who he is either, but it's somewhere- He's in between that. Somewhere between those two. And now you're like, holy shit, we're paying this guy $25 million a year. Do you make a move on Zion right now? And if you're the Pelicans-

What do I have to give up? It's always, what do I have to give up? If you're the Pelicans... What do I have to give up? It's always, what do I have to give up? If you're the Pelicans, do you look at this and you go, he's going to leave at some point. He's certainly going to miss this season. We don't know if he's ever going to get back. And it's like, he's an asset that he might not be the same kind of asset in a year. You don't have the pieces to put around him.

You don't have fans coming to your games anyway. Is this weirdly a trade asset? And if you're the Knicks, you look at it and you go, okay, I have this distressed asset in a terrible situation. I can bring him in. We can just throw a team of people at him and a ton of money, try to get his body right. And now we could have one of the 10 best players in the league. I would overpay for that if I was the Knicks. That's a really interesting thought. You're a clever guy, Bill. Thanks. Thank you. I was just, I was trying to think if I was the Knicks, what would I do? What would my move be? And I would, I would be calling Indiana constantly trying to get Sabon or me too. That'd be move. But I'd also be calling the Sixers. For Simmons.

Yeah, give me Simmons and maybe I can, you know, let's get a third team involved. Maybe I can end up with, you know, maybe it is with Indiana. Maybe do a three-team deal and I give you some picks

and we move things around and I end up with Simmons. If I'm the Knicks, I think that helps me a lot. Yeah, but that would involve. So what are the Sixers? The Sixers would have to. That would involve Rich Paul dealing with Worldwide West and Leon Rose. Pretty sure that's not happening. Yeah, but you know what? If Rich Paul, and I think sometimes you put that stuff aside because you got to get business done. I don't know. That's what, I mean, you got to do what's best for your client. He and you know, he tried to steal all their clients 10 years ago. He tried to take the entire

basketball roster when he left in the middle of the day. So let me ask you, if you're the Knicks, like what will you give up? Like you're going to have to give up RJ Barrett or who do you give up? You know, you're going to have to give up a Barrett? Or who do you give up? You know, you're going to have to give up a lot. Probably a pick. You're definitely going to have to give up a pick. My favorite trade for the Knicks. Oh, if you're talking about Zion? No, no, I'm talking about Simmons. Like, with a three-way with the Pacers.

So, you end up with... So, like, the Sixers, to me, with Simmons, this top 30 player thing. Who is it? I mean, I just don't see it. So now you have to figure out a way to end up with like

Sabonis and Karis LeVert or something. You know? Something like that. Yeah, but Sabonis doesn't make sense for the Sixers. That's the part that doesn't... Yeah, all right.

So let's say Miles Turner. Or how about TJ Warren? I don't know. You know, I'm just throwing names at you. Like two really good players. So are we segwaying into the Sixers? No, no, hold on. Because I have a point on this.

Okay. You know who makes sense for the Sixers? Ben Simmons. I was just about to say that. He's kind of exactly what they need. Somebody who can handle the ball and play defense. I watch him and it's like, that's the guy they need. You know what?

You are walking right into my point. So I looked it up for you. And last year, the Sixers were number three in fast break transition points. Okay. These are very rudimentary. I know people don't like get bogged down with that. This year, they're 13th. Okay.

Last year, just as basic offense as you can get points per game. Number nine last year, 21st in the league this year in points per game. Okay. Assists 17th in the league this year, last year, 24th in the league this year. So what does Simmons do for you? He can move the ball a bit for you, but mostly in transition, he makes you run. And defensively, he has an impact on the game.

So you're right. What they miss is him. Now the problem is he can't go back there. And while just quickly, while we were talking about Ben Simmons to the Knicks, are you sure that a guy

that has some questions about his mental health wants to go to New York? Is that the best idea? I don't see that one. The Simmons thing, I like Maxie, but I don't see that one. The Simmons thing, I like Maxie, but I don't know

if he's a starting point guard yet in the way. I think he's an energy guy off the bench. He's kind of overqualified for that. I don't think he's a, I got to make sure

everybody on my team is getting some and oh, Danny Green hasn't gotten a shot in a while. I got to get, he's basically a, I go to the basket guy. With the Knicks though,

the obvious trade to me seems to be Turner, Toppin, a pick, something else. Turner is actually what the Knicks need. They need a real center. I think the Mitchell Robinson thing has probably run its course at this point. And if you're Indiana, you've got to pick between one of those two guys. They're both assets. You can get something legitimate for them.

Now, if we're talking about Zion and what the Knicks would have to give up for them, they have a, they have a bunch of picks, right? They can do a bunch of, they have top and they have RJ Barrett and there's a world where the Pelicans could do this.

And then they spin it as we don't think this guy's ever going to be in shape like two weeks later. And, or we just don't think he's ever going to stay here. Both, the combo of them. Interesting. With the Simmons thing, I can't tell what's real and not real

because we never know anymore in this modern world of basketball journalism where people are carrying water for a lot of different people at all times. And it's like, oh, seven, eight teams interested in Ben Simmons. It's like, are they? Or are teams interested in Ben Simmons. It's like, are they,

or are they just like, you know, sending a text saying what's going on with Ben, but not actually interested. Let me give you the best example. Like, Oh, the Sixers are interested in,

um, I mean, the Celtics are interested in Ben Simmons. Okay. Well, yeah, they might be interested in him if they can trade, you know,

Peyton Pritchard and whomever, but they're not interested in them. they can trade, you know, Peyton Pritchard and whomever. But they're not interested in them if you want Jalen Brown. Right. If it's Marcus Smart and Robert Williams and Peyton Pritchard and a pick, they're 100% interested. Right, right. So that's the fine line between all of this. What's interested? Who's interested for real?

And, you know, I know, like, for instance, Daryl Morey loves Jalen Brown. I just know that from, you know, conversations from years gone by or whatever, but the Celtics aren't there yet. I don't know if they'll ever get there. I mean, you know, I don't know if you watched the game last night. They, that was Jalen Brown's first game back. They look, if they move the ball like that, everything would be great. If you, if you move the ball and defend like that let Tatum have his 40 or whatever the heck it was I don't even remember that's fine but you know the problem with them is consistency but if I'm Brad Stevens I'm not giving up on Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum yet I'm just not so I'm not training not happening until next summer unless yeah it's just never happening for

me so are teams interested like you know the Kings are they interested of course they're interested you can have probably anybody you want. You know, you could probably have De'Aaron Fox at this point. Buddy Heald. Oh my God. That team, that team said, I think they've set the record for players only meetings in the first two months of the season.

It's unbelievable. So if you're Daryl, at what point do you say, all right, I'm not going to get Jalen Brown as an example. So maybe, maybe I would take, you know, De'Aaron Fox and Buddy Heald. Maybe that works for me. I don't know. I don't know.

I would rather keep Ben and hope it works out. Well, he will. He will. He's not, he's never going to ban it. No. He'll sit and sit and sit because the team as structured right now has other issues anyway.

You know, Embiid's already missed 11 games. He's got this rib soreness. Oh, it's not a big deal. Everything's a big deal when you're the centerpiece of the team and you get injured. I'm sorry. It is a big deal. I think the trade that makes the most sense and has made the most sense for a while would be Ben Simmons for Brandon Ingram. I like that trade for each side.

And I think it allows New Orleans to reset, to throw away this season, basically. Get Ben reacclimated. Try to figure out if they can get Zion in shape and then ultimately come out of that with two real assets, potentially. I like Ben Simmons more than Brandon Ingram, personally. I'm not a huge Ingram fan.

I was going to say, man. You know how I feel about Ben Simmons, the player. I understand what he's done. I mean, if I told you in the summer, hey, Bill, by the time we get to Christmas, neither Ben Simmons or Kyrie Irving will have played a game. I mean, and that John Wall would have played,

I don't know, how many games has John Wall played? 20 have played, I don't know how many games has John Wall played, 20 or something. I don't know. It's just the weirdest thing. It's just so weird that these two players have not played one single game. It astonishes me. And it gives you an idea, I think, at how rich this league has become, how wealthy it's become, how you can take that kind of asset and just eat it because you're looking at the long haul and you don't have to worry about it because your team's worth billions. Your players are worth hundreds of millions. And it's just, I just think it's amazing. I think there's more to it than that. And it goes back to what we were talking about,

where you have this reservoir of just evidence the longer we have the NBA, right? And what are one of the things we know about trades? You never want to be the team that's getting the three pieces for the one really good person. That's right. Everyone's terrified to make

the Charles Barkley for Jeff Hornacek. What was that? Andrew Lang and whatever. Tim Perry. I think that was it even remember. Whatever. Tim Perry. I think that was it. Oh, was it Tim Perry? Oh, geez. Nobody wants to make that trade anymore.

So it's like, I'm sure teams are calling, I'm sure Dallas is calling the Nets. And I'm sure they're like, hey, what about Porzingis and Jalen Brunson? And the Nets are just like, no, we're not going to do that. We would rather have the asset.

I think teams realize like there's 55 guys total that make a difference. And after that, is there a difference between Danny Green and whoever? Like, no. Interesting. So who would you like of the Pacers roster? Who would you think would give Philly some hope, some help?

I mean, Sabonis, you're right. That's a redundant skill. So that doesn't work. Turner, to some degree, is a redundant skill. Huh? Give or take. I don't like the two of them together. I've never liked the two of them together.

I personally absolutely love Sabonis. I like Sabonis, too. If there was a Sabonis-Jalen Brown conversation, I wouldn't go running into my bedroom locking the door. I think Indiana would have to give up more. And by the way, I don't want to trade Jalen. I want to keep Jalen and Tatum. But if Sabonis was really on the table,

I just think he's an untapped resource. I don't like the cut. Last year, that coaching situation was an all-time debacle. They've never been able to figure out this Twin Towers thing with them. And I think if you put him on a team that really used all the skills he has because I think he's he's a good passer.

He's just really smart. He's a very good player. He's great at exploiting mismatches. I just want to see him on a good team at some point in my life. So if you're the Celtics and you can figure out how to get Sabonis

while keeping the Jays I would go all in on that. If there's any way to do that, I would do it. Well, I mean, Carlisle is a defensive-minded coach. They want to do what they're calling a medium rebuild. I don't know. Does he want Marcus smart? I think Marcus has more value than he does to the people that have to watch him every day. Like I went to the Cooper game last week and it was the full Marcus experience, right? When he turned it on defensively, he ate up Reggie Jackson for like a quarter. On the other hand, he did 11 things I disagreed with offensively. And the team kind of ebbs and flows.

He's got a weird energy. It's like he wants to be the leader, but he's not quite good enough. And I didn't really feel like the other guys, at least, it was so important to go see them in person. I don't think they dislike each other or anything, but the vibe's definitely weird. And Adoka stands there

mid-court, and he's kind of... I don't know. The intensity on him is weird. He's stiff, right? He's like everyone's watching. Yeah, but like it's almost like everybody's watching. So I'm just going to like he's in class and the teacher might tell me to sit up straight or I don't know him at all.

He's very guarded. You know, I'm not around the team every day anymore, obviously. But I've been around people who have and he's in. He's hard to penetrate for people around that team. And, you know, I don't think that's true with the players. Yeah, I think he's good with the players. He's hard to penetrate for people around that team. And I don't think that's true with the players. I think he's good with the players, but everybody surrounding them, it's been difficult to penetrate him.

And I think Brad, in a lot of ways, was similar, but just a little more affable and a little more smiling as he tells you nothing kind of thing. So I think Brad likes that. I don't think Brad likes... I saw Danny, by the way. Kevin McHale was inducted into the New England Museum Sports Hall of Fame. And Danny was there. And I have never seen him happier, more relaxed.

He is just like free, living in Utah, just having himself a time. And just the stress gone from his face. is just like free living in Utah, just having himself a time, you know, and just distress gone from his face. And yet think about Danny and his personality and his imprint on that franchise. He took all the heat for his team. A lot of the times, if there was some kind of controversy or something simmering, he would say something. I almost think purposely. So the attention would go to him and go away from the players. That's a famous Gino Ariema trick, actually. He used to do that when their teams were ranked number one and there was some kind of controversy. He would say something really volatile. So they'd all look at

him and start looking away from the young players that he was trying to protect. I also think the league is just really talented right now. Because even if you look at the standings, the Clippers are 16 and 12, which is the ninth best record in the league. And the Knicks are 12 and 15, which is the 10th worst record in the league. So you have 12 teams between 16 and 12 and 12 and 15. Right. The middle class and everybody has at least one guy who you'd really want. And everybody's got some young guys that you might be interested in. And then even when you go to like the Houston, OKC, Orlando, Detroit,

like those aren't like shit teams like we used to have in the past. Like even I watched Detroit. I watched them play the Nets the other day. And Durant, they needed like every bit of Durant's 51. You know, I like Cade. Grant just got hurt. But, you know, they're like every bit of Durant's 51. You know, I like Cade. Grant just got hurt. But, you know, they're not like a complete shit show. And that's the worst team in the league.

See, I think Grant might be available though, Bill, because his contract's up. Yeah, he is. So he's someone that I think can get moved. I know he's out now, but he's someone that I think you could very well see get moved. I want to talk about the Cavs, but let's take a break. All right.

So the Cleveland Cavaliers are 17 and 12. The seventh best team in the league right now is Memphis at 17 or 11. The Cavs are 17 and 12. Sean Grandy tweeted this last night and I thought he was kidding

that they would be our four seeds with home field advantage, home court advantage in round one. If the season ended today. Memphis and Cleveland. That they would be our four seeds with home field advantage, home court advantage in round one. If the season ended today. Memphis and Cleveland. That's great. I like that, actually. I like that.

Memphis got lucky with the Morant thing. Cleveland honestly got lucky with the Moby thing that he dropped the three. That was absurd. But you watch them. He's so good, isn't he? He is really fun. Oh my God.

You watch them and you think like, Garland they struck oil with. And I don't know whether Philly could have had Garland and Love in a pick for Simmons during the summer or not. I've never been able to confirm that, yes or no, but that's a tough beat for Philly if that trade was on the table. But Cleveland has, they have the heart of the 2011 Minnesota Timberwolves Rubio and Kevin Love who I thought really had good chemistry together

10 years ago but Love now has come off the bench as you know this kind of the high end of this would be the

Bill Walton 86 Celtics example but obviously he's not that but they have this guy that can come off the bench who's been a first team All-NBA or second team All-NBA you know who knows what he's not that, but they have this guy that can come off the bench. Who's been a first team all NBA or second team all NBA. You know, who knows what he's doing? Yeah. The game last night, it makes you kind of jogs your memory. I think it's been an interesting

metamorphosis with love because he's had these incidents that were close to insubordination. Yeah. It's important patient really. And I think he's been dealing with a lot. I think it's hard to be the last guy stand there, but they're very smart in the way they've handled him. I think he's playing about 20 minutes a game. I looked it up this morning. He's shooting almost 41 percent for the three point line. So that's what you bring him off to do. You know, bench helps them. They bring him in. And it's like they actually extend leads and stuff. Yeah. Rubio has been pretty. I mean, he's cooled off some. He was he he was shooting over 40% for the three point line. He is no longer, he's cooled off, you know, he's cooled off considerably, but that team Mobley that I don't know, it was two weeks ago or a week and a half ago. I don't know the block on Lillard. Did you see it? We got, it was awesome. Lillard was going, basically going up and I'm like, Oh my God, he's going to block. It was pretty cool. He kind of reminds me, people keep saying Chris Bosch, man,

I think he's got a lot of Kevin Garnett in him. I really do. That was the guy I've said the whole time. Like a less maniacal Kevin Garnett. Right. I mean, but it's just such a good defensive player. And so few rookies come in as a,

as a, as a good defensive player. A lot of them try to be, and they foul too much, and they overplay, and they try to block every shot, so then everybody just upfakes you, and you end up on the bench for five fouls.

That's not him. He's really, he's got great timing. I really like him. And you know, I would say he's an elite defensive player already. I really do.

I think he's one of the best people at that division. Small sample size. But yeah, I mean, defensively, they're in the top three in the league defensively in defensive rating and scoring defense. I mean, they're legit. And you remember when we were sort of poking fun at them because they were signing all these, they were gathering all these centers when they had Jared Allen and Andre Drummond. Well, I mean, the laugh's on us. Jared Allen, when they got him, we're like, well, yeah, he's a really good player, but you don't really need him.

Well, yeah, they do. Yeah, they do. And they just got rid of the other guys. So that was a really good score for them. I mean, he's fun to watch. I liked when they got him because I just thought he was this cheap asset. He needed to be thrown in the deal because they didn't want to give up DeAndre Jordan.

And Cavs were like, okay, sure, we'll take him. And I think there's a bunch of fans of teams, including me, that were like, why couldn't we grab Jared Allen? Where were we on that? Why didn't we throw in the non-lottery pick for him? But can we go back a minute to why Jared Allen had to go? Let's just go back to that for a minute.

Why did he have to go? Because it goes back to that crazy Durant-Kyrie friendship thing with DeAndre. It's a disaster. Think about that for a minute. Just think about that for a minute. Because they knew Jared Allen was good. John Marks is a smart guy. He knew how good he was.

But to appease Kyrie Irving, who is not playing for you right now and has not played a game for you all year. Because you promised we'd get DeAndre Jordan, who, by the way, since has been traded, you let Jared Allen go. Think about that. Talk about player empowerment. Wow. He's been unplayable for three years.

And like when the Lakers signed Jordan, who's a nice guy by all accounts, but he's washed up. He's been washed up for years. And they kept him because, you know, whether Durant Kyrie told them to keep him or whether they were just trying to appease their guys or whatever, but he absolutely should have been thrown that trade. There's no question.

It's unbelievable. And the weirder thing is that Houston didn't want him either. It didn't have to be a three-team trade. Houston could have just been like, cool, we'll take them. So you have this Cavs situation where the best teams in the East, Brooklyn, Milwaukee, Chicago, although the COVID stuff with them,

but I think that's the top three right now. And then you have... Well, that's just because Bam's hurt, though. I mean, if Bam's healthy with the heat, I think they're right there. Yeah, I'm just saying right now. I think healthy Miami would be our four spot. Yeah.

And Cleveland, I think, is in the running. I think I like their roster and their team better than everyone else. Yeah, playing hard. They're young. They play together. Garland is a star. Mobley might be a superstar.

Okoro, you know, I liked that pick for them, but they were just, you know, it's been hard to judge them at all up until this season because they were just bad all the time. So it's hard to say. And then your boy, Markanen, he's helped them. He's helped them. Your guy. Yeah. I've watched a lot of the Cavs this year, and I might have even wagered

on them a few times. They're always in games. I thought the most interesting one I watched, it was like the seventh, I'm looking it up, seventh or eighth game of the season against the Lakers. And LeBron was really trying because it's Cleveland, right? He's not giving them an easy game.

And they kind of went toe-to-toe with them. And then in the end, LeBron and Davis bully-balled Cleveland and they ended up winning the last five minutes. But it was like a weirdly impressive loss because I didn't even think they played that well, but they hung around, they hung around. And right after that, they lost to Phoenix.

They won four straight, barely lose to Washington. Then they had their little bump when I think Mobley was hurt and the team immediately tanked. Mobley comes back, the team's immediately good again. They're good again. Their identity is defense. It's just too bad about Sexton

because it would have been nice to see him with them through the course. Isn't he out for the year? Sexton? Yeah, but it's tough because I think he was a trade asset for them. Yeah, but he helped them. He did, but I think basketball

wise, and I hate saying this about injuries, but basketball-wise, I think it was good for Garland. It kind of just gave him the car keys, you know? It's like, all right, this is my team now. See, I think that was going to happen anyway. And I just think whenever you have depth, young guys that are playing hard,

and you create competition within your roster, I always think that's good. But maybe in this day and age, it isn't. I don't know. For the people listening who are not focused on the Cavs, just a couple pedestrian stats for you. Garland is 19 a game, 7.5 assists a game. He's taken 7 threes a game, and he's shooting almost 39%.

And the eye test backs it up because one of the reasons I like them, I like the shots they get at the end of games. Same thing for Chicago. I think they get good shots and they can also get stops on the other end, which is why I think they have to be taken seriously. Jared Allen is basically 17 and 11 this year. Yeah, he is. And they gave him that contract. I didn't like it. They gave him a hundred million for five years. And it was like, that's way higher than what the center market is, but it turned out to be good. And Bill, that's what you have to do if you're Cleveland. See all those mid market teams, whenever you talk to the owners or the GMs, they tell you the same thing. We have to overpay or

they don't stay. And Jared Allen was young enough that you didn't. I liked that signing. Well, easy for me to say now, but I didn't like the money. I liked him, period. I just thought young, energetic, seems like a really good team guy. All the Nets players are really sad that he left because, you know, he was just starting something. And it's interesting. They felt the same way about Karis LeVert, but it's so hard to, you know, he's had so many bizarre things happen to him. It's kind of hard to say now.

I don't think he'd be fun to play with either. It's funny. I talked before the season. Zach and I were on the phone. We were trying to plan what we were going to do for whatever and just catching up because he'd just gone back from his vacation. And we were kind of talking about a couple teams that we may or may not like. And I was like, I really like this Cavs team.

I don't know what it is. I like the players. I don't know if it'll make sense, but they have eight guys I really like, I really like this Cavs team. I don't know what it is. I just, I like the players. I don't know if it'll make sense, but they have like eight guys I really like. And Zach said the same thing. He's like, oh my God, I feel the same way. And I was like, their over-under was like 27 for wins. Oh, okay.

Yeah, when we did the over-unders, Cleveland was one of the ones, Russillo and House and I, we were all kind of like, yeah, this seems like they have more talent than a 30-win team. Was not expecting them to be fighting for the 4th seed. I gotta say, I'm not shocked

that Miami's had some injury stuff already because I think that was the concern looking at the over-under for them, which I think was like 49. Just Lowry's old. You know, the Butler-Bam. I don't know. I just, I felt like they would just try

to get their team ready for the playoffs. Obviously not anticipating the Bam injury. But I think out of those five, and then you have whatever's going to happen with Philly if Embiid stays healthy. They have to be in at least the top eight or nine. I think Boston will end up being there. But so how do we make sense of Atlanta? Whatever's going to happen with Philly, if Embiid stays healthy, they have to be in at least the top eight or nine. I think Boston will end up being there.

But so how do we make sense of Atlanta? What's your take on them? They've just abandoned the defense. It's such a shame. I was looking at the numbers. They, you know, Clint Capella, who I thought was a great pickup for them and had a good year for them last year. Teams are shooting like over 70% at the rim when he's in the game. It makes no sense.

I mean, their interior defense is non-existent. And I thought, you know, Nate McMillan got through to Trey a little bit last year on the way to this run to the Eastern Conference Finals that like, look, we know you can score. We know all those things, but you have to defend. If you don't, this team can't go anywhere. And if you defend, everybody else will. Because everyone's like, well, how come he doesn't have to defend? And so they've gotten away from it, Trey included.

And it's killing them. It's killing them. It's too bad. And you always wonder, and now I'm going to go in the way, way, way back machine. But remember when the Hawks pushed the Celtics in that great series with Dominique and Larry? Oh, yeah. Right. And we're all like, oh, they're going to be great the next year.

They weren't. Because they're like, oh, we're hot shit. Well, you know what? Not unless you keep trying and playing the way you were playing last year when you took the Celtics to seven games. So I wonder if that's the case a little bit with the Hawks. I'm disappointed. They're disappointing to me. You know, I love them. And I, you know, I think they're probably going to move one of those guys. Like I'm sure Cam Reddish, I bet they'll move him, you know, but some of those other guys, you just, you want more. I mean, the Capella numbers are alarming. Yeah, it makes you wonder why Darrell was so excited to trade him two years ago. Out of nowhere, right? When he didn't have a center. Yeah, you mentioned one, there's two theories with them that are usually bad things for NBA teams. One, you just mentioned the hot shit theory. We have this run, you go into the next season like, oh,

we're hot shit. We're there. And it's like, no, you actually, this is a year after your thing. You got to earn it. The other thing, they just have too many guys. And I think sometimes this happens where, you know, you look at the minutes, It's like Cam Radish is playing 22 and a half minutes a game. Is he happy? What are the people around him saying? He wants to play 35, right? Bogdanovich is playing 28. Herter's playing 27 and a half.

Gallinari's at 22. Lou Williams is at 13. All those guys probably feel like they should be out there in crunch time. And I think... Yeah, that's interesting. I don't know who their best five is. And it's a team that seems like they should be out there in crunch time. And I think... Yeah, that's interesting. I don't know who their best five is. And it's a team that seems like they're dying for a two-for-one or a three-for-one trade,

which I'm sure they've kicked the tires on Jalen Brown constantly because he's from there. Right. That's not going to happen. That's not happening. But could that be a three-for-one team with somebody possibly? Yeah.

And remember, they started slow last year too. They came on at the end of the year. So maybe that happens again. I don't know. But I just think it's just a little disappointing for me because I think they were ready to make the next step. They have a great core of young talent, guys that are winners, guys that really want to play, that aren't afraid to mix it up. And I know Trey isn't for everyone, but he could be on my team any day he wants to be. When you look at the stats, the stats compared to the eye test, the stats actually seem okay.

They're making almost 13 threes a game. They're 38% from three. Trey is 27 and 9 every night. Collins is 17 and 8. It's not the offense. It's not the offense. It's the defense. Right. When you watch them It's the defense. Right.

When you watch them, it's a team that doesn't seem to be totally happy. Transition defense. Yuck. Bad transition defense. You know, just nope. So you're not buying the,

you're not buying the foul rule with Trey messing with them at all. Say it again. The fact, the changes to the foul rules, people have blamed that for Trey. Uh, no, because you know, superpower. Say it again. The changes to the foul rules. People have blamed that for Trey losing his superpower. Although I will say Harden, if you look at Harden too, he's kind of settled in back to being himself,

but he's not having success going to the rim anymore. Not the way he was. See, I don't think he's settled back into being himself. I think he's... He's getting there. I think he's getting there. I don't think he gets by people the way he did. Well, no don't think he's settled back into being himself. I think he's... He's getting there. I think he's getting there. I don't think he gets by people the way he did. Well, no. That's what I just said.

But I mean, in terms of step-back threes, those are starting to be automatic again. But going to the rim for him is not what it was before. He's not... Neither one of those guys are going to be shooting, averaging 15 free throws a game. That's just... They want that out of the game,

and they're going to succeed. It's just like when they started with the hand-checking rules. They didn't want centers dominating the paint. They didn't want big men. They wanted to open the game up. And the year after they did that, Allen Iverson at 5'11 was the MVP of the league.

What the league wants, the league gets. That's just the way it rules, you know? It's a shame because I don't think Durant's ever been better. I looked at the stats. He's great. He looks really good, but he's playing too many minutes. Yikes, yikes, yikes. Too many minutes. And I know he doesn't like that, but it's true. His MVP season, his stats are pretty nuts. And he was awesome that year. And he was an MVP of a year that LeBron James was at the peak of his powers. And it was not even an argument.

Katie was definitely the MVP that year. Obviously 2017. It's hard to imagine him being better than that. It's hard to imagine him being better than he was in the series. But when watching him this year, especially on like a pretty mediocre Nets team with no Kyrie and with Harden, not really being Harden and I don't know,

Patty Mills, no Joe Harris all year. Right. And we've had some injuries. KD, just how he gets his points night after night. Who stops him? Who's the KD stopper? Who's the guy like, oh man, they're playing this guy. This guy usually has success against KD. That person doesn't exist and has never existed in the history of basketball. There's no, even like remember Bird in the late 80s where it was like when Rodman started to become Rodman and you're watching going, oh shit, this is kind of the guy you would create in a lab to beat Bird.

But remember, the problem with those is like they say, oh, maybe Robert Reed is, you're like, oh, stop it. You know, sometimes it's the worst thing on this earth for someone to say you're the KD stopper because he You know, sometimes it's the worst thing on this earth for someone to say you're the KD stopper because he'll destroy you. That's what all the great players do. They destroy you.

There's never been one at any point ever. I mean. Well, who was the best defender of Michael Jordan? Who was the guy that defended Michael Jordan the best? This is right in your wheelhouse. I mean, it was probably the Pistons collectively and their ability to throw Dumars and Rodman on him

kind of as a combo. And then just punish him anytime he went into the basket. But he solved it eventually. How about a young Reggie Lewis, though? Blocked him three times in one game. You're right. Reggie went the best at him out of anybody. Yeah.

That was your wheelhouse. Man, I can't believe you didn't get that. You're slipping. No, I was thinking about playoffs, but you're right. Reggie would go at him, and he also would go at Reggie Miller, too. I think he had a little burn in his saddle for both of those guys. But yeah, with the Durant thing, I guess Giannis technically would be the guy, but he's torched the bucks over and over again.

You can't ask Giannis to go out to the three-point line, and that's just too much to ask. Although Giannis acquits himself pretty well in those situations. But when he's healthy, he's always been a unicorn. We knew that. And he's unselfish, too. Even though when he puts up big numbers, he wants to make the right basketball play.

That's always been true about him, I think. Yeah, I agree. There's four guys. It's him and Curry, right? Aren't they the two right now, the front runners? They're former teammates, Curry and Durant. Who else? I think there's four guys

who are just playing spectacularly right now. Jokic and Giannis. Jokic has to be in there and Giannis. Yeah, Giannis. Yeah, you're right. Yep. I actually think Jokic, if you actually look and Giannis. Yeah, Giannis. Yeah, you're right. Yep. I actually think Jokic, if you actually look at his numbers

and you watch that team and you see who he's playing with and he's just throwing up 27, 13. It's unbelievable. Yeah, it's unbelievable. So he's got to be in that conversation. I think you could make a case this will be the best first team All-NBA

we've had in a while in terms of guys, like really good, historically great guys at the peak of their powers, where we have four guys and Luka should have been the fifth, but decided to, you know, take a ball again this season, which we'll give to him. That second, first, that second guard spot on first team All-NBA is kind of wide open right now. Cause Dame's kind of abdicated it. Harden's abdicated it. Luka. Don't count Dame out yet. Don't count Dame out yet.

We got some time left. Yeah. Not ready to do that yet. What team is he going to be on? I don't know. We'll see. I just think a trade could make all the difference

or a trade that they make to have someone join him. The problem they have is their most reasonable trade asset has a collapsed lung, right? C.J. McCollum. So that's a problem. What about Bradley Beal for your first team All-NBA?

Is he in that level? He's had kind of a crappy year. He just said himself the other day. I would not have him on that level. And I don't think he's played that great really all season. And now that the Wizards team is kind of cratered. Well, they're regressing

to their means. Yeah. It's a 500 team. I'm trying to think who else. I mean, Booker would have been there, but he got hurt too.

I thought Booker was probably the odds on. Yeah, Booker's. And he might still be bad. I mean, he's not going to, I don't know how much time he's going to miss. Booker's a good choice

because that team's good. Oh, and DeRozan's the other one we should mention. Oh, sure. But am I ready good choice because that team's good. Oh, and DeRozan's the other one we should mention. Oh, sure. But am I ready to put him first team All-NBA? I'm just saying it's wide open.

Somebody's going to sneak in there if Luka and Harden and Dame are not going to keep that spot. You can get a little creative, too. If Tatum keeps going the way he's going, maybe he could have a run at one of the two teams. I mean, he's already at 26 a game.

And then Mitchell, I guess, is the other one we should mention because Utah. Oh, Donovan. Yeah, that's how did we forget him? Oh, we shouldn't have. That was a bad oversight. See, that's where the Utah fans are. See, this is you.

I know. You mentioned 10 guys before Donovan. And you know what? We would deserve it on that case. Mea culpa to all the Utah Jazz fans, who, by the way, they're phenomenal too. They look great. Gobert's been unbelievable.

They're good. They're really good. They have, I think, the best, the second-best point differential now. They're 19-7. I don't... Something about them still leaves me a little cold, and I can't put my finger on it.

I don't trust them. Maybe it was just because I went to those Clipper playoff games, but it's almost like they have to prove it to me. They're scoring. Aren't they way above everybody's scoring? I think their offensive numbers are way... Points. I don't have it in front of me.

Yeah, they're 115 plus a game. I mean, that's a lot. That's a lot. And it's the style they play. Guess how many threes a game they I mean, that's a lot. And then a lot. And it gets somebody gets how many threes a game they're making. Sixteen. That's a lot.

That's crazy. Well, maybe that's why you're worried, though, because you got to do more than that. And they can. I believe they can. This might be their year.

This might be their year. Well, it would have to be the Mitchell becoming a real top seven. I think he's he's close. I think he's really close and he's got the right mindset for it and the great work ethic. I don't know. He's got a good personality for it. I think he's got all the tools. We'll see if he gets there. One more break. And then I want to talk about Anthony Davis. All right. So Anthony Davis, we talked about Luca disappointing. He's not a hundred percent in shape. We talked about Zion disappointing. It seems like injuries and some off the court stuff might derail a potentially great career. What do we make of Davis at this point? Like Barkley went at him really hard last week and you know, by the old guys on the TV show going after the new guys, I get it like,

and they've been tough at times, but I also feel like there, I thought he hit on some genuine stuff there. It's like, why this guy is supposed to be one of the seven best guys in the league. This guy, they gave up all these draft picks for why isn't he carrying them? Why does he have to have like the perfect supporting cast? Why isn't LeBron and Davis enough? And it's a pretty good question. I haven't loved what I've seen from Davis this year. And people are going to point to the stats, but whoa, stats are kind of right. But I don't like the 18 footers. I don't think he's moving as well as he used to. And I liked when he looked more like, you know, young Garnett, young, young, uh, young KG when he was just, you know, he skinnier is moving around. Now he looks like a center to

me and I don't feel like he's a special to watch. What do you think? Well, I just always have thought the same thing about Anthony Davis. It's you can't expect everybody to be a one. He's not a one. He'll never be a one in my mind because you know why? There's only a handful of a ones. I mean, LeBron's a one. I don't care how old he is. I don't care if Anthony Davis is better than him. LeBron's a one. That's just how it works. And Anthony Davis's motor to me has always been just, you know, okay, but very skilled player who, by the way, the Lakers it's been proven again and again are better off when he is playing center. That's just the truth of it. And, uh, the 18-footers is the one I would harp on.

That kid can dominate, but it's almost like it doesn't occur to him or something. Does that make him a bad guy? It does not. But again, I'll repeat, it doesn't make him a Kevin Durant or a Giannis. It's not in his makeup. You can't teach that.

You can't teach that killer instinct. It's only, it's not in his makeup. You can't teach that. You can't teach that killer instinct. It's only the very, very few have it. Only a handful of players in each generation have it. It's a gift and it's just, he doesn't have it. And that doesn't mean he's not a good player or that he's not a hall of famer. He's already won a championship. It just means that your expectations, I think, have to be tempered based on that knowledge. That's how I feel about it. This is going to be a weird tangent for him, but game three of the finals in 2020, the bubble. So first two games, he puts up 34 and nine, 32 and 14. He's 26 for 41 in this series through two games. And everybody is doing the,

oh my God. Here it is. It's happening. This is Shaq in 2000. This is Duncan in 2003. This is, he is becoming an all-time guy. And then the next day, game three, they lose to Miami by 11, 15 points, five rebounds. And then he was okay. The rest of the series, but it felt like there was this one moment and then it kind of went away and we've never gotten back. But there was this one moment between two and three where it was like, this, this is happening. This is happening. Kareem, this is Shaq. This is Will. This is the next guy. And I don't get next guy vibes from him anymore. And I don't know whether...

I don't know what's going on, but it doesn't seem like he's getting better. It's weird. He looks like he's 32, 33 years old. He's 28. Okay, wow. I would have guessed he was older. He looks like he's 32, right? Like 32, 33. He's not. He's 28.

Well, big guys always age. Even when they don't age, they always look older. That's always been my theory. But I just think that he, I think he's got, I think he has at times where he can get himself lathered up, but I don't think it comes naturally to him. And, you know, you've played sports. All of us have.

Like, you know which people, you know who they are. You can identify them within five seconds in a gym. Magic Johnson loses a pickup game and makes them play again because he said, you fouled me on that last basket that you hit the game on. Everyone's like, no one touched you. No, we're playing it over. It's just they can't stand to lose. That's LeBron.

I don't know if that's Giannis. It feels like it is. I just don't think that's Anthonynis. It feels like it is. I just don't think that's Anthony Davis. And I mean, does that make him a bad player? It doesn't. It just doesn't make him an all-time great. I regret putting him in the top 75.

I didn't put him in there. I think I did recency bias with him in projection. And you realize with some of these guys, you never know. Yeah, you didn't put him in. I don't think Bob Ryan had him either. Yeah. But at the expense of some of the people

I left off, like Gasol, who... See, I had Gasol. Gasol was a slow burn, right? Where it's like by the end of the Memphis run, you're thinking, oh, this is...

What a disappointing career. This has a chance to just be kind of a bummer that it didn't work out better. Then he goes to Lakers, reinvents himself, meets Kobe at the right time. But I think the, seemed like the plan was always LeBron passes the torch to Davis and then Davis keeps carrying the Lakers. I don't think he can carry the Lakers without LeBron. Do you? No, I do not. I do not. So there's no way they would trade him, right?

No, no, no, no. So what do you do for them? Because your only trade piece is Westbrook. Because you backed yourself into a trade asset corner where now they're trying to float out. A lot of teams interested in Taylor Horton Tucker. It's like, really? Are they? Yeah.

What is it? Well, I mean, again, they might be interested in him, but they're not interested in him for the stuff that's going to make you a champion overnight. He's one of your younger guys. You should be trying to move one of the older guys. Westbrook, I read somewhere that, oh, the Lakers and the Sixers. I'm like, there is no way Daryl Morey is taking on Russell Westbrook. He's already seen that movie in Houston.

That ain't happening, people. That is not happening. I don't know what the suitor is for him, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist. The only person you can trade him for is John Wall. And we're not going to do that again. You know? Those two guys. There's a...

I'm not... Please, aggregators, don't get carried away with this, but the only team that kind of makes sense is the Clippers. Where they could... They have the salaries to throw together. And... I don't even think it makes sense.

But... I went there last night. It's a team that has... Without Paul George, you're just... I went last night to watch them play the Suns and it's like, Oh cool. It's Reggie Jackson and Terrence man, Marcus Morris,

all these guys. And it's like, it's barely a barely an entertaining team. He's a, he's not, you know, he hasn't followed up, which is too bad.

I mean, it's again, it's early. I mean, it's only December, but they, they're there. Even when Kawhi comes back,

I just think their roster is a bit problematic. When do you think Kawhi comes back, I just think their roster is a bit problematic. When do you think Kawhi comes back? Do you think we see him this year? I do. I do. Really? But I don't, I do.

I would bet no. If FanDuel had the odds and it was like, no minus one third, I bet, I would bet the no. You say no at all. No. I think he's too careful about his body.

I don't see him pushing back. By the way, they're going to be like a nine seed, a 10 seed. Yeah, but I think because he's so careful with his body, he probably progresses at a better rate than the average player recovering from injury because he knows his body so well, because he's tuned into his body, because he has no problem using his own people if that's what's required to get him to where he wants to be. Yeah.

So, yeah, I might be wrong. I just, my gut was that he'll be, that we'll see him. What's nuts about the West is you have the Clippers who had no quiet all year and they've lost Paul George now for a couple of games. They're still 16 and 12. They're still a five seed. You have the Lakers who have had the most disappointing year of probably anyone in the league,

they're a six seed. You have nuggets. How about the nuggets? I mean, where are they? You've Dallas and Denver who I would say, wow, could that year have gone worse for either team?

No, right. They're the seven and eight seeds. Yeah. I mean the nuggets, the way they're treading water is unbelievable to me with everything that's gone on with them. And then you have Portland, who's had the year from hell.

And they're a 10 seed. They're in the playing game right now. That team sucks. Yeah, they got troubles. They have to do something. I think they have to do something. I don't know what they do, but they got to do something. What's new are they got to do something power rankings right now.

So I would have Portland one. I think Indiana's two. See, I would have Indiana one because... Really? Well, because you don't forecast almost every good player on your roster. I mean, LaVert, you've heard LaVert, Turner, Sabonis, and TJ Warren

have all been, it's been forecasted that they're all available. Brogdon, the only reason Brogdon isn't available is because he technically can't be because he signed his extension, so he's not eligible. Otherwise, he'd be available too. They're clearly hitting the reset button at what level we can discuss. So to me, they have to do something. They will do something. I don't know if Portland can do anything. The Pacers have enough interesting pieces that something can happen.

I think for the right team, TJ Warren could be a very nice pick. And of course, he's been injured too. He's had some health issues. But, you know, I think those... Feet scare me. The TJ Warrens have multiple feet things.

Who would you have in the third pick? Philly's off the table because we know they have Trey Simmons. But all right. So you have Indiana one. I have Portland one. Portland two. I have Indiana two. So who's three?

Is it Atlanta? Are they at the they have to do something stage? I don't think that they're at the have to do something stage. I think they're at the the have to do something stage. I think they're at the we want to do something stage. And again, I think they have enough pieces that will interest other teams. They have assets that people would be interested in that are worth more to other teams than perhaps they are to their own team. I have our number three then. It's Sacramento. They have to do something. What do you do with that? I don't know. Come on. We've been saying

that for how long? I feel like we've been saying that for five years. They have to do something. What do you do with that? I don't know. Come on. We've been saying that for how long? I feel like we've been saying that for five years. They have to do something. They never do. It's got to be this year. I'm going to go with Atlanta. I'm going with Atlanta. Before we go,

I came up with an idea for every Jackie appearance. Oh, okay. Story time with Jackie. You have to tell some story about when you were covering. So I'm just going to throw. I'm going to throw. No, no.

It's going to be even more confusing for you because. You're going to make me. Oh, okay. I'm just going to trigger you like you're a karaoke machine with some sort of event from the past. And you have to tell your best story about that event, player, whatever. Okay. Here's what we have for this podcast. 1992 dream team.

Your best story. Okay. Well, you're not going to love this because in 1992, I was the mother of a newborn child. I did not go to Barcelona. Oh my, all right. No, no, no. It's a story. Okay, good. It's not the one of a newborn child. I did not go to Barcelona. Oh my, all right. No, no, no. It's a story. Okay, good.

It's not the one you want, baby. Okay. So Dave Gavitt was in charge of the Dream Team, right? So Dave Gavitt, God rest his soul, who I loved, but had to write a very difficult column about when I was at the Globe, which fractured our relationship for many years. He knew I really wanted to go, but couldn't go. I was on maternity leave. I had this baby. So he got this dream team book and he had everybody on the dream team sign it to my daughter. Okay. Now, Larry spelled my daughter's name wrong,

Allison, but that's okay. So every player except for one signed it and it was Scotty Pippen. And it wasn't that he said, no, I refuse to sign it. Dave just never caught up to him. So I've been carrying around this book for the last, my daughter's almost 30, 30 years trying to be, and I've seen Scottie a hundred times, but I never had the book with me. So Scottie Pippen's the only one I didn't have sign it. So I watched the dream team. I didn't go to Barcelona. I feel like I know every story because I've written about it 8,000 times, but I wasn't there for any of it. How about that?

Wow. And you, you probably would have gotten more stuff at it. Dream team experience than any other reporter. I think other than maybe McCallum, it would have been, you guys would have been in the finals trying to grab stuff. Yeah.

McCallum was good. And you know, cause I loved Ewing. I knew all those guys really well, Malone, Jordan, all those guys. And it was, you know, people like, you didn't cover the tree team. I'm like, Hey, I had a child. Let's put world in perspective, please. Okay. I had my daughter. She, she was worth it. So the big winner other than your daughter was McCallum. Oh, McCallum wrote a great book. That book was great. It really was.

McCallum's like, oh, Jackie, I'm so sorry you can't come. I don't think he was even aware of me at that time in my life. Bob Ryan went. So he got to go. You know, because I was covering the NBA then. So he went. He went. No, I wouldn't say in my place.

They probably would have sent both of us. But he had a blast, you know. Yeah, but so he went, he went, no, I wouldn't say in my place, they probably would have sent both of us, but he had a blast, you know? Yeah. But you had, you had Barkley and Ewing, like those were like real relationships. You could have gotten some good dirt from those guys. Well,

I just got it after they came home. That's all right. I'll play one more. Okay. French lick, Indiana, your best story. Oh,

wow. I'll have to think about that. Okay. This is, your best story. Oh, wow. I'll have to think about that. Okay, this is a pretty good story. So I went out to do a book with Larry. I forget which one. And we were at French Lick because I'd never been there. Or I've been there once before, but not with him. And he was there.

And so we're going through all the places, Jubal's Bar and all the, you know, hot spots or whatever. And at some point I said something about, it must have been the second book because I said something about that movie with Dustin Hoffman about the president and they were saying that

going to the moon was fake. It didn't really happen. Do you know what I'm talking about? I can't remember the name of the movie. Capricorn One, you mean? No, no, no, no. Ah, shoot. All the President's Men? No, no, no. It didn't really happen. Do you know what I'm talking about? I can't remember the name of the movie. Capricorn One, you mean? No, no, no, no. Ah, shoot. All the President's Men? No, no, no. It'll come to me. Anyway, whatever this movie was, I happened to say, yeah, I'm going to see that movie at some point. Later that night, I stayed. So the great thing

about Larry is whenever I worked with him, he'd have me stay at his house. So he comes out with this thing from behind the back and he had the movie. We had the movie on like the DVD, but it was only in theaters. What was the name of the movie? I'm ruining the whole story. Someone help me out, Kyle. It was Dustin Hoffman. Yeah. Oh, walk, wag the dog, wag the dog. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was it. And he pulled it out. He had it. And so we watched wag the dog. That was my, wait a second. So he, he just was able to get a DVD of the movie because you wanted to see it. So we watched Wag the Dog. Wait a second. So he just was able to get a DVD of the movie

because he wanted to see it? Well, I think he probably, no, he probably already had it because like Larry Bird couldn't go to the movie theater because everyone would like cost him. So he probably had some agreement where he got all the first run movies like in his home ahead of time.

Oh my God. I watched Wag the Dog. It's my favorite story. The legend. Unbelievable. All right. Jackie, great to's my favorite story. The legend. Unbelievable. All right. Jackie, great to see you as always. Happy holidays.

Same to you, guy. I hope this all things turn around. I hope we get some trades. And next time... We're going to get some... There'll be trades. There'll be NBA trades. I mean, I think as of tomorrow,

86% of the league is available via trade. You know, Malcolm Brogdon tomorrow is the exception, not the rule. So somebody is going to get traded. All right. I just don't think it's going to be a Russell Westbrook bill. Yeah, I don't think so either. Sorry, Laker fans. All right, Jackie, good to see you. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Jackie. Thanks to producer Kyle Creighton. We'll be back on Thursday on this feed with one more pot, million-dollar picks, and a lot more.

Don't forget about Juice WRLD Into the Abyss, 8 p.m. HBO, Thursday night, and you can get it on HBO Max as well. Put in your calendar now. See you on Thursday. I want to see them on the way so I never say I don't have feelings with them. On the wayside, on the way so I never say I don't have feelings with them.