The Bill Simmons Podcast - Luka Does Dallas, AD's Future, and the Fultz Fiasco with Marc Stein and Chris Ryan | The Bill Simmons Podcast (Ep. 451)

Episode Date: December 5, 2018

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by his first ever podcast guest, and NY Times sports reporter, Marc Stein to discuss Luka Doncic's red hot NBA start, Dirk Nowitzki in the Dallas sports pantheon, Anthony Davis, and contemporary sports journalism (3:33). Then Bill sits down with The Ringer's own Chris Ryan to discuss the recent Markelle Fultz news (1:22:55). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Tonight's episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network brought to you, as always, by our friends from ZipRecruiter. You know what's not smart? Not having Mark Stein on your podcast for a long time. What the hell am I thinking? He's one of our greatest guests. You know what else is the smart job sites that overwhelm you with tons of the wrong resumes?

Luckily, there's a smart way at ZipRecruiter.com slash BS. ZipRecruiter finds people with the right skills for your job. They actively invite them to apply. Right now, my listeners can try ZipRecruiter for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash BS. ZipRecruiter is the smartest way to hire. Meanwhile, it's the most wonderful time of the year. It's NFL season heading toward the playoffs.

Games are heating up. They're heating up on the Yahoo Sports mobile app. You can watch them live on your phone. The local nfl games and primetime nfl games for the rest of this season the yahoo sports mobile app wherever the holidays take you won't have to miss a thing that is we're celebrating my friends download the yahoo sports mobile app and make this an NFL season to remember. We're also brought to you by two podcasts that I'm on this week.

House of Carves or Joe House. When are we putting that one up, Kyle? Right after yours. Oh, really? Tonight? A lot of pots today.

House and I talked about two great meals I had in New York City and then desserts. We talked about basically desserts, Korean food, and Italian food, and what makes for the perfect Italian restaurant.

So listen to House of Carbs or subscribe and you'll hear all that. And then we're putting up the rewatchables. I think Thursday morning, the firm. You're going to want to listen to this one, even if you're not a huge firm fan, because there's a lot of Tom Cruise, Wilford Brimley. It just gets super crazy. So check those two out. Check out our new podcast, Winging It. Vince Carter,

Kent Bazemore, Andy Finberg breaking down life in the NBA. Coming up, Mark Stein, and then we're going to talk to Chris Ryan about the Markov faults thing, because that just broke.

So that's going to be at the tail end right after the Mark Stein part, which is over an hour. And it's really good. But first, Pearl Jam. Hey, before we get to Mark Stein, just want to tell you next week, December 11th, I'm going to be plugging this every time I have a podcast from now until then, Tuesday night, HBO, Momentum Generation. time I have a podcast from now until then. Tuesday night, HBO.

Momentum Generation. A documentary that I got involved with pretty late, but it's fantastic. It is directed and conceived by the Zimbalist brothers who did the two Escobars on 30 for 30, which is one of the best 30 for 30s we ever did. It is

about Kelly Slater and the whole surfing generation and how they grew up in Hawaii. And I mention this because I really want you to watch this. It's one of the best documentaries I've ever been involved with. And it's fantastic. So set your DVRs. I'm planting the seed every time we do a podcast from now until Tuesday night. I really want you to watch this one.

You should trust my taste at this point. I don't know what else to tell you to watch this one. You should trust my taste at this point. I don't know what else to tell you. Watch this one. Momentum Generation, December 11th, HBO. All right, let's bring in Mark Stein. On the line right now, my first podcast guest ever, spring 2007. It wasn't even called the BS Report yet. It was called Eye of the Sports Guy, which sounds like a Bravo series. Mark Stein was on that one. I had no idea what I was doing. I don't remember what we talked about. I have no idea how long it went. I think it was probably awkward. I'm much more accomplished now. I'm at least semi-competent now at doing this. Mark Stein now writing for the New York Times. Neither of us

are at ESPN. How was that for an intro, Mark Stein? Very good. I'm pretty sure I told you back in 07 that I think I said even then, if I'm your first guest, this thing is doomed. So I'm glad I was wrong. Yeah, you were really wrong. It was not doomed. It's been very fun. And I'm now in year 12.

Podcasts have taken up. When we started that first one, and I think it was either you or Chad Ford was the impetus because I heard you or Chad interview Danny Ainge on ESPN.com and they said like podcast. And it was like just this 30-minute interview. Was that you or was that Chad? I think it had to be Chad. It wasn't me.

Yeah. So I heard that and I was like, how do I get one of these? And like a week later, they just sent me the equipment. I hooked it had to be Chad. It wasn't me. Yeah. So I heard that and I was like, how do I get one of these? And like a week later, they just sent me the equipment. I hooked it up. And then I either emailed you or texted you. I don't even remember if we were texting back then. And I was like. Yeah, you just wanted to talk hoop.

Yeah. And I was like, hey, come on this. For some reason, I was the only guy who was available. No, that's not true at all. Now you have a cadre of people who voiced your theories upon. Yeah, that is true. I do have a cadre. Yeah. I was like, I think I said, just come on. We'll talk hoops. I think the 07 lottery was coming up and the play and then we just kind of did our thing. So you are in the heart of Luka land.

My beloved Luka Doncic, my, is he Croatian or Serbian? He's Croatian, right? Slovenian. Slovenian. My Slovenian son. Get your Balkan countries right. Yeah, God, I got to work on that. My Slovenian son, Luka Doncic, I went all in on him this summer. I went nuts when two teams passed on him

and then Atlanta traded his rights. And sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong. I'm really proud of this one. I was all in. He actually has a chance to make the All-Star team. What has Luka Mania been like in Dallas? It's his team already, man. That's the crazy thing.

You know, this is still Dirk's town. And I've lived in Dallas for 21 years, man. That's what, that's the crazy thing. You know, this is still Dirk's town and I've lived in Dallas for 21 years, basically one, except for one year that I lived in beautiful central Connecticut. And I always say Dirk is bigger. He, he, he, he's arguably bigger than any cowboy, obviously cowboys, the Cowboys will always be kings here. Football will always rule. But I don't know that there's any one cowboy that you can put ahead of Dirk. That's how synonymous he is with Dallas sports. But Dirk is still playing.

He's still active. And the Mavericks are Luka Doncic's team. I did not see that coming before Christmas of his rookie season. And he's 19 years old. I, I, I did not see it coming, but I also wouldn't have been surprised because I really thought people underrated how hard the EuroLeague thing that he did last year was. He ended up playing like 90 games. He played against, he played in a competitive league with really good, angry crowds all over the place where you have to compete.

Your life's just a tad bit in danger. And he was like the crunch time guy for this team that won the title at age 18. It seemed crazy to me that people were picking him apart. I just didn't understand it. I thought— And he won Eurobasket, too. I mean, to me, that might even be more impressive that he, and you know, a team that had, you know, they had other good players and Brock, which obviously

made the all-star team last year, but you know, he was the driving force of that team and little Slovenia wind Euro basket, which is insane in international hoop circles. Look, I think, you know, this about me, but for those that don't, I, I don't watch college hoops at all. Apart from my beloved Cal state Fullerton and paying attention to the big West. I will not watch one second of Duke Zion, Rowan Barrett kid. All you're like,

I just, I just, my philosophy always is I will wait till these guys get to the NBA. But Luke is actually the guy that I knew in the draft last year because I do follow European basketball to a degree. I've actually seen him play a EuroLeague game. We went on a family trip to Madrid a couple of years ago and I actually got to see him play for Real Madrid. And yeah, I mean, this guy, the EuroLeague is the highest level outside of the nba it doesn't have the athleticism obviously but hostile environment playing with huge stakes and i mean he'd been there since he was like 14

yeah so he he i mean that thing when you talk to dirk about luca he just he was so much more ready for this than Dirk was. Everyone wants to compare them and say, oh, Dirk will pass the torch and he's the mentor. But like, if you compare their lead ups to coming into this league, I mean, you know, Dirk couldn't have been less ready and Luka couldn't have been more ready. Right. And you know that the EuroLeague stuff, going against adults, going against physical players, going against cheap shot artists and people who have all these tricks, playing in weird stadiums with fans who are just really pissed off and really festive and trying to knock you out of your game. There's really nothing like it, you know? And then on top of it, the, the amount of games that they have to

play per year, I think that's the biggest, the hardest thing I think for college players when they come in is going from that, you know, 35 game season to the 82 game season. A hundred percent. Right. I mean, he played like 90, 30 games. Yeah. It's an extra 30 games. And if you even go back to the nineties, when, you know, all the greats from Europe were coming over, you know, the Euro league was much smaller back then, you know, 90s when, you know, all the greats from Europe were coming over. You know, the EuroLeague was much smaller back then. You know, they were playing, you know, 10, 12 extra games. You're not 30.

And Porzingis benefited from it. Yeah. And Luka benefited from it. They already went to another country and learned how to do that before they came to the States. When Novitskiy got here, he didn't even know how to write a check. He didn't know how to fill out a restaurant bill. But these guys went from small countries in Eastern Europe to big clubs in Spain, which Spain has really become the best league outside of the NBA. And so they already learned how to make that transition to adulthood before they got here.

And I think that's kind of an underrated part of both of their success. Well, and also being on teams with 35-year-old people and 29-year-old teammates and people who are as good as they're ever going to be and people who are threatened by you. And you're dealing with things that if you're in college, like the situation Zion's in right now, the other two best players on his team are both the same age he is. They're both freshmen. He knows he's there for eight months. Everybody's catering to every single thing he has. And by the way, I love Zion. I'm not criticizing him. I'm just saying he's in a really kind of cushy situation. There's some pressure, but for the most part,

he knows it's just this little pass and he's with people his own age. Luka's experience was completely different. That was one reason I thought he was going to succeed. And then, you know, he already had the step back jumper. All you had to do was watch the YouTube clips last year. He had an elite NBA move that was going to translate into the NBA. I don't care who he's playing

against. That was a top of the line NBA move. And then the vision was the other thing. He already knew how to do these sophisticated driving kick passes and go into the lane and then find people in corners that you don't even know how we saw them. He is so advanced at that. Have you seen in Dallas? I mean, you were there for Nash. How would you compare to the Nash Luca kind of vision? Well, it's funny. I remember vividly in June that I talked to a Western conference executive and they were like, and I said, what is, you know, I'm, I'm pro Luca, I'm biased, you tell me more objective, what is this guy's best case scenario?

And they said, six foot eight, Steve Nash. And I'm like, man, that is, that is a lofty projection. You really think, I mean, that's a lot to ask this kid, and this guy's like, best case scenario, yes. And I gotta be honest as, as good as he is. And with everything we've said in the preseason, he looked shaky. Yeah. I mean,

they played the Beijing ducks. And in that game, I remember the pro three looked long for him. And even just getting his steps, right. It was, he was, you know,

in the preseason, he was taking one extra step that I think he got away with in Europe. He was getting called for right, in the preseason, he was taking one extra step that I think he got away with in Europe. He was getting called for travels, and I was like, man, the way everybody's been raving about the way he looked in pickup games before camp, I thought he was going to look better than this.

But the minute the season started, if you go under, he hurts you. If you go over, he hurts you. The kid, nothing bothers him. He just is so unflappable. And he's 19. It just doesn't make sense. And he's got a little bit of a nasty edge, right?

He's gotten into it a couple times with guys on the other team. And it's not like he's some soft, the stereotypical soft Euro type guy. I feel like he has a little bit of an edge. He reminds me more like Alan Aron. Dirk pointed this out, and I think he's exactly right. One, another big benefit that Luka has is it's a different league. When Dirk came in 20 years ago, remember what prototypical fours were. It was Karl Malone. Yeah. I mean, Duncan was still

playing next to Robinson and Dirk got thrown around like a rag doll. With the way the game is called now, and you can't be as physical as you were even five years ago or 10 years ago, that plays into his hands too. Not because of any softness or anything, but just the way the game is called, it favors offensive players. And it's just one more thing that's helping him make this transition. Yeah, poor Dirk came in in the late 90s during the NBA's hidden steroids era that nobody's ever going to acknowledge or write about. But that was like in every sport.

Just go look at the size of the dudes we had back then. And look at the size of the guys now it's, it's a much more kind of sleek athletic league. Now, I think if you, I saw, I remember seeing Dirk his rookie year. So that was what? 97, nine. Oh, that was, that was the lockout season, right? Yeah. I don't know if I saw him in person that first year. It was the first or second year. And he was clearly something.

But it did seem like he was so tall and skinny, it was kind of hard to imagine where it was going. He clearly had a beautiful shot. But at that point in time, it was very traditional. Centers, power forward, super physical, like you said, a lot of low post. And it was like, how does this guy, how would this work if he was the best player on a title team? And then I think by year three, all of a sudden,

it made a shitload of sense. But I remember the tall and skinny thing, just being skeptical. I'm not skeptical of Luka Dacic, which is my point. Well, I always say that I'm proud about being right about that one, but right is relative. I never could sit here and say I thought he was going to be an all-time great, that he was going to revolutionize his position and score 30,000 points and all that stuff. I mean, nobody predicted that 20 years ago. But I did think he was going to be an all-star because my feeling was I had

actually got to go to Germany and see him during the lockout. So I kind of saw him before he even got to Dallas. And when I watched him there, I just said, what this guy has, you can't... The shooting... There's never been a seven-footer who shoots like this guy. He'll learn all the other stuff. So I

did think he could be an all-star. But a friend of mine actually asked me last week, when did you think he was going to be an all-time great? I can't even... When they beat San Antonio in Game 7 in 06, I mean,

what Dirk has become has exceeded all rational expectations. I remember when he was coming to the draft and my dad and I were really rooting for the Celtics to get him. We had no idea that Paul Pierce was going to follow us, but there was a lot of bird buzz with him, remember?

And it was like, this is, he's German bird. He's got, but at that point we didn't have YouTube. You just had, you kind of had to trust. If you even think about how, like that was nine the spring of 98 when he played the hoop summit game and went for you know 32 or whatever and you know i think it was bird who told jackie mcmullin if you watch this tape you think this guy is going to be the best player ever but even with that level of buzz the draft was three months later and there were

still not you know dirk wasn't nearly talked about like it would. I mean, could you imagine that now? Can you imagine if some kid plays like that in the hoop summit in March? That's all we'll talk about. I just looked it up as we were talking. Cause I Dirk, they didn't come to Boston in the lack of year. The game I saw was his second season. He had 26 be two he had two rebounds.

But he played 30 minutes. But listen to the starting lineup. This will be near and dear to your heart. Robert Pack and Eric Strickland as the guards. Steve Nash coming off the bench, as well as Seth Sabalos also coming off the bench. Nowitzki playing center, I guess. Michael Finley.

And then your fifth starter, who had 16 rebounds that night and played 40 minutes, Dennis Rodman. Dennis Rodman. How many games did he play for them? The longest 12 games of my beat writing life. Oh, my God. Dennis Rodman is a Dallas Maverick. Didn't even remember.

He played 40 minutes in a game for the Mavericks? I have no recollection of this. He used to shower before games, but not after. What a dude. Oh my god. What a character. Let's hold that thought about Dirk in the Dallas Pantheon because I want to come back to that because that's a great conversation.

The Donchich in June. So Dallas wins the title in 2011 Dirk gets his belated recognition as one of the greats and now I think he's one of the I think he's in the top 16 if I made my top 20 list

he's somewhere 16, 17 I think he passed Malone, I think he passed Barkley I think he might have even passed Julius Irving but then the next five, six years, frustrating. Going back to Tyson Chandler leaving. The next eight, not just five. Yeah, I guess next eight. They were never able to really properly defend the title.

It became clear about four years ago that they were just completely wasting Dirk's post-prime. They took a lot of swings. Rondo comes in and out through there and made some big signings. Wes Matthews coming off an Achilles. That didn't work. They really paid for Harrison Barnes, who I actually will—not a bad thing to have Harrison Barnes on your team. You just don't want to pay him $24 million.

They went through the DeAndre Jordan car wash and came out covered in soap and finally get him this year, probably a couple years too late. Everything they did just either didn't work or they had bad luck or poor vision or whatever you want to say.

And then this Doncic thing makes up for it. Did they know immediately that that was going to be a transformative trade, or were they just hoping? I think they can't say that they knew for sure, but look, Donnie Nelson, he's a Donnie Nelson player. Donnie Nelson is the one, Don Nelson will admit it, Donnie Nelson is the one who found Dirk, who pushed for Nash. And yeah, I mean, this is, you know, Cuban, I told him the other day, he's won the lottery again. Like he, you know, now the Mavs finally have a postDirk future. And in this, this one guy is,

you know, because it, you need three great players at least to really compete for championships. I think we all know that and agree with that. So there's still miles from that.

But if this really is Dirk's last year, no matter what happens, no matter who else is on that roster, you've got Doncic, you've got Donchich, you've got a piece that your fans are going to be excited about, who's going to keep the building full, someone who Dirk can actually hand the torch to.

I mean, you know, they gave up a lot for him. I mean, everybody wants to just crush the Hawks. And I know you've been at the front of that line, but, you know, let's see what they get with this other pick Dallas sent them. It did cost the Mavs a lot. I'm not accepting that. That was a horrible trade. My number one goal if I have a basketball team is to get somebody who can be the best player on a title team.

That's it. I don't care what, you can throw any other trade, like, oh, I get this, I'm going to get these extra picks, like, whatever. Doncic was a trans, I felt like he was a transformative prospect.

The other people who worked at the ringer, Kevin O'Connor, Charks, Danny Chow, like, we were all like, what's going on? How is it, this guy's really not going to go first?

It seemed inexplicable. I didn't know he was going to be as as accomplished as he is right away I mean this is he's averaging 20 points a game but I just feel you're running the Suns you take Donchich that's at least defensible to me

because Aiton is a potential all-star center and I personally would have taken Donchich I wouldn't have even blinked That's at least defensible to me because Aiton is a potential all-star center. And I personally would have taken Doncic. I wouldn't have even blinked because now I have Booker and I have Doncic and those guys can play together. Sacramento, the funny thing is I actually like Bagley. I don't think in a million years they should have taken him over Doncic. And it's crazy to think of how much fun he would be on that Sacramento team. But that wasn't defensible And that was indefensible. But then you get to Atlanta at three, a team with no identity whatsoever, who has a, who has never really had, you know,

an all time, all time guy. I would say Nick is probably, you know, the best player they've had. Maybe he's like, I don't know, is probably the best player they've had. Maybe he's like, I don't know, the 60th best player of all time. They've never had like 50? I don't remember I had him. Yeah, he's in the 50s, 60s. But they've just never had a transformative guy. And to go all in

on Trey Young with this whole we want to be Golden State and he's our Curry. It's like, he's had a pretty and he's our Curry. It's like, ah, that's... He's had a pretty different life than Steph Curry. So when they get the next Donovan Mitchell with a number 12 pick in the next draft, that's not going to make you change your mind?

No, I want them to trade that pick to the Celtics for Jalen Brown, but we can talk about that later. I think the interesting thing about what's happening with the Mavs right now, you don't have your pick if you're the Mavs. Why not use the Wes Matthews expiring contract to try to make the playoffs?

You're in the middle of the road anyway. Look, I'll tell you this. They are looking and they want to do something. There's no question about that. Donnie Nelson is always active. They've got chips. I don't think it's materialized clearly what's out there yet.

We're not even into December 15th. But they're always on the lookout to do something. But I would also say, what is the rush? Because, okay, you make the playoffs in the West. So you get your brain kicked in in the first round. There's also some value to seeing what you have. They barely played 20 games. Do they really know what they have yet?

They got to figure out, can Dennis Smith play next to Doncic, or is that no hope? Do we have to move Dennis Smith? I think Harrison Barnes has played great this season. Me too. People point to that contract. I think he's, you know, that, you know, people point to that contract. I think he's lived up to it in Dallas in tough circumstances where he's had to be the guy a lot of the time.

And I, you know, I would not be in a rush to run away from him. So hold on. I have to, you're still figuring out. Hold on. I have to go to the store and buy you some settled down juice.

Harrison Burns makes $25 million a year. Hold on. I have outrageous in today's NBA. Yeah, it's a little outrageous. Hold on. We get to take a break. Let's talk about hotel tonight. Here's a little insider travel secret from our friends over there. There are tons of empty hotel rooms waiting to be booked. They've partnered with these awesome hotels to help them. So those unsold rooms, you get incredible deals. That's why they call it hotel tonight. Hotel tonight shows you a select list of incredible deals. That's why they call it Hotel Tonight.

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I thought I was doing that this weekend. My daughter has a soccer tournament in Irvine, California. And I was ready to stay there, but she's got some birthday parties Saturday night and wanted to come back. So instead of getting to stay in Irvine and go to the Irvine Spectrum,

one of my favorite outdoor malls, now driving back to LA because my daughter doesn't want to hang out with me anywhere. To start scoring amazing deals in incredible hotels, go to hoteltonight.com or download the app right now. I love talking about this Dallas thing. So you say, I don't know what the rush is. Why would they go for the playoffs

to get their brains beaten in? First of all, there's no great West team other than the Warriors. And who the hell knows where they're going to be in April? I mean, you could present any scenario to me and I would believe it. That's one thing. Second, they actually have two different trades they can make. There's a way for them to upgrade their team in a really significant way. So they have the Wesley Matthews contract that's an expiring and it's, I think he makes like 17 or 18.

You can go out and get somebody who's a legitimate asset for that. Like, I mean, they could go to the Knicks right now and say, we'll take Hardaway back, get him off your books for next year you can spend a shitload of money Hardaway by the way is a legitimate scorer now

I saw him in person on Saturday I'm impressed by him he's somebody that could be out there in crunch time on good teams I feel like but they could say we'll take back Hardaway's contract we'll take that off the books give us Frank Nitalikinka

Frankie Smokes take back Hardaway's contract. We'll take that off the books. Give us Frank Nidalehkinka. Nidalehkinka. Frankie Smokes. It ain't that hard. Nidalehkinka. Nidalehkinka. Nidalehkinka. Who I still love, by the way. Me too. I'm in on him. He's 6'6", and he's a phenomenal defender. But he's got that Rondo body. I feel like... I'm in on him too.

And by the way, who's a better fit next to Donchich? Cause he can guard, you know, he can cover up some defensive side. You've been, you've been bugging my phone. It's pretty scary.

And when we say the exact same thing, now I'm work. Now I'm officially worried. So you put, you do hard away. We'll take hard away his contract. Fine. Give us Frankie smokes.

And we'll give you the Wes Matthews expiring contract and our second round pick, whatever. And if you're the Knicks, you got to think about that because all they care about is KD this summer and making a run at him. And they feel like they have a real chance to get him. And I think the fans want it and the media wants it. And if the Warriors win again, there's a case to be made.

He won three straight. Now he's got to go have his own team, go to the Big Apple. The biggest challenge left in sports is to turn the Knicks around. And you want to have that cap space. So the other thing is Hardaway makes them a little too good for the Zion sweepstakes. And that's another thing they have to think about is, you know, between Fizdale, who coaches his ass off every game, and some of these different dudes, like, you got to figure out, do you want the ninth pick? Like, if you put Zion in MSG, I think that would be my number one non-Boston sports wish, for the Knicks to get Zion. Because I went to a game on Saturday night, and their fans were losing their shit over Emmanuel Moutier and

Kevin Knox and Mitchell Robinson. And they were acting like it was game seven of the finals. If you put Zion in there, it's all over. So I really hope that happens. But anyway, so let's say they get Hardaway for that. Hardaway and Frankie Smokes for just that expiring. They still have the Dennis Smith card to play. And this is another philosophical discussion. I know the Mavs fans, this is the number one topic right now. Can Dennis Smith play with Doncic? Or is Dennis Smith a winning player? And it's a tough one, I think, for people who work for the Mavs and just people who follow the team because he's a really good kid and people like him. I'm not sure he's a winning player.

I'm not sure he makes sense in 2019 and beyond. And I'm not sure he makes sense with Doncic. And I also think he has a lot of trade value. So my question is, is that a two-step deal where you then turn him into something else that can help you either a little more immediately, or you take a chance on somebody else's lottery pick, like Josh Jackson is getting buried in Phoenix or whoever. Is that a two-step move? And have I now talked you into this?

Here's the thing. I think the math, look, we all know that there's almost no one who has done worse in free agency over the last two decades than the Mavs. Yeah. Every time they've had cap space, they've struck out somehow. But I think they do want to go into the summer with cap space if they can. And now they have Luka. Mate, is Luka a lure? Is Luka going to be the first European who actually attracts other players because of the way he plays?

I don't have all the numbers in front of me. Maybe they can do your mythical hardaway deal and not mess up their cap space too much. But they're not going to take on long-term money unless they really like the guy because I think they do want to take the space and see what they can do. I don't care about the space as much for this year

because I don't think they're going to get anybody. Hardaway's contract, I think, expires after next season. The guy I would be thinking about if I'm them is Davis. Everyone has Davis either headed to the Lakers or the Celtics. Nobody, by the way, knows anything. It's just, and I want to talk about this with you in a little bit about this new era we're in where information is being leaked directly from the teams to reporters to get it out there that this is happening.

And meanwhile, nobody knows what to believe. We have no idea where Davis is going. I thought if I, at gunpoint, I would say he's going to the Lakers because he's signed with Rich Paul, but I don't know that. My point is, if Doncic, from what we've seen in year one, and then in year two, it goes up a level, I think they become a legitimate Davis suitor if he ends up going to free agency if the Pelicans don't trade him.

Okay, so here's the thing. You're going to have to trade for Davis to get it. Right. New Orleans is either going... New Orleans is going to offer him the 200 plus million extension. If he doesn't take it, they're going to have to trade him.

So don't you want to save your trade chips for that trade? I keep seeing that people think New Orleans is going to trade Davis in February. KOC believes that. Our own beloved KOC. If I'm them,

basically, if I give up on Davis, I might as well not have basketball in New Orleans. I watched them last night. So we're taping this on a Tuesday. They were on last night. And they were playing somebody good. Who did they lose to last night? It was a close one.

Or they beat somebody last night. No, they lost. They lost to crap on Blanken. Clippers. Yeah, yeah. I was watching that one last night. And it's a Monday night in New Orleans and you can see the empty seats.

That's a really good game. The Clippers are number one in the West. In New Orleans, they have Davis and it looked like they had about 9,000 people there who were actually in the building. I just feel like if you trade him, you basically

just move to Seattle at that point. If I were them, I would ride it out because he is an all-time guy. And it's just never worked out for anyone who's traded an all-time guy. It's never worked out. I can never remember one example. So you would trade them in a year? What would you do? To me, the only way you could even pretend to suppose that New Orleans

moves him this season is if Davis tries to force it and yes he has a new agent a very influential agent who can get things done but still that's got to come from Anthony Davis he would have to want to go now

he's not going to do that he's not wired like that. Yeah, I don't see it. He genuinely loves New Orleans and has a great relationship with that city. Does he really want to be the bad guy who forces his way out

in February? I'm not. I don't believe it. And there's other moves for them too. They could go, for example, they go to Boston right now and say give us Rozier what do you want you know

right now they're starting Tim Frazier because they don't know how long Alfred Payton is going to be out and by the way when you're relying on Alfred Payton

that's a bad sign in itself although he has played well you have to say when healthy he's been better he's healthy for nine games but if they went to Boston and were like, give us Rozier and we'll give you a pick swap.

Our pick with your pick. Top 10 protected. Whatever. I do feel like they could add two pieces with the team they have and still make some noise because it goes back to the little thing. The West, to me, is not lights out this year. I think there's a lot of good teams, but there's no great teams.

And they have the best player probably in the whole conference other than Durant and, and playoff LeBron. So I don't know. I just, I wouldn't trade him, but I think long-term we're on the same page because Luca is going to be an attraction.

That guy's fucking fun to play with and he's going to make you better. And right. So I think, but I think that also makes you think save your chips because the davis thing more more likely than not doesn't play out until july the pelicans make him the offer and look if you know he we've seen guys not take that super mac so maybe he says i'm not taking it i'm ready to move on it's the summertime it's easier for him to do that. And then it becomes the sweepstakes. Lakers and Clippers

obviously, or Lakers and Celtics, obviously at the front of the line, because they both have the most assets. I mean, that's the same reason why people say, Lakers should trade for Beal right now. No, they shouldn't trade for Beal right now. The Lakers are not going to win at all this season. You don't start slicing into that cast

of great young assets now. It's too soon if you're the Lakers. Boy, I love when we disagree. I mean, okay, so you're magic now. I'm nuts for trying to ask you to be rational

about the Lakers, but you can't trade two of those young guys now for Beal, and then Davis becomes available in July, but you can't trade two of those young guys now for Beal and then Davis becomes available in July and you've lost half your cachet. You can't do that. LeBron and Bradley Beal,

what does that get you in the West? Could I turn Ingram and some expirings into Bradley Beal? I can't do that. I personally would not want to do that. And then come to find out in July that I was Brandon Ingram away from getting Anthony Davis. I'd like Brandon Ingram, but is Brandon Ingram that good? Are we sure it's not?

There's some, a little bit of Laker hype thrown into that. I watch him and. I'm a fan. I look, I'm a fan. I don't know. Is he going to make an all-star team? He's regressed this season because he's still figuring out how to,

figuring out how to play with LeBron, which as we've seen. It's a problem. It's not the easiest thing to do. I get it. Kevin Love does not get enough credit for how well he survived the LeBron coaster all those years in Cleveland. Because it ain't easy. I get it.

I just, I saw Ingram in person a few weeks ago and I'm still not positive what he is. Because to me, it looks like he's a six foot ten shooting guard. And I'm not sure what that is. Like, forget the Durant comparisons. It's's stop. But he's just, he's got a really strange body for what his skillset is, which is, he's a shooting guard. He's not, he's not somebody who is ever going to be anything other than that. He's a perimeter player and he's really tall. And I don't, I don't

really know where that goes. I still like him. I still think he's a top 35 trade asset. But if I could turn him into Bradley Beal, who's only 25, who I think has been in a really effed up situation in Washington, playing with a point guard who just thinks he's better than he is, a variety of bad coaches, a hall of fame bad GM, and just a bunch of bad coaches a Hall of Fame bad GM and just a bunch of really weird teams and Beal I don't know I like the way he carries himself and I thought in the playoffs

two years ago against Boston I thought he was awesome I really loved him I think I think he could be this if LeBron's the best guy I think he can be the second best guy in a finals team you'd have to find a third guy everybody wants Bradley Beal I'm not if LeBron's the best guy, I think he can be the second best guy in a finals team. You'd have to find a third guy.

Everybody wants Bradley Beal. I'm not disputing that, you know, in any way, shape or form. I just think it would probably cost the Lakers two of their prize for young guys to get him. I don't know that they could get him. I would do it.

Listen though, the whole point of taking yourself out of Davis. I don't know if you are though, because LeBron is making, like, what, 35? Beal makes 25, so now I'm at 60. Other than that, I got a whole bunch of young guys and expiring contracts. I still feel like I could finagle it so I could have all three potentially. Your guy, Danny, has such a war chest of tradable pieces. I know, the Jalen part.

If Davis is going to be traded, you're going to have to come up with an amazing offer to beat what Boston can put on the table. I know, the problem is they're going to want Tatum. It's going to be a staring contest over Tatum. You can't have all the good players. I hate to break it to you. Are our players that good?

I don't know. It was a lot higher than three weeks ago. What is the term the league uses for not revenue sharing, star sharing or whatever. Get Zach Lowe on the phone. Whatever that term is that they use

for superstar sharing or whatever. The worst thing that happened to Boston this season from a Davis standpoint is the regression that Jalen Brown's had. Where you finish last season and we can talk about 10,000 different metrics, but Jalen Brown was ahead of where Paul George was

after two years. But in every respect, offensively, defensively, they were about even. And then the playoff reps that he got in those first two seasons were almost unparalleled. And you would have to go to Kawhi Leonard for a similar comparison of the amount of big games he was able to play in and succeed in just seemed like he was an incredible asset. And now he's regressed. And I think he would have been the linchpin of a Davis trade, but now I don't think he's the way he's regressed.

I don't, I don't think he can be the lead person. I'm not saying they are different role. It's a completely, I mean, they went from the main two to he's a role player. I know, but my point is he can't be the lead of a, of a Anthony Davis package right now at the way he's playing. I need a killer incredible asset as the lead of that package

if I'm trading Davis, and I think Brown qualified last year. If you have to sacrifice Tatum to get Anthony Davis, I think you can do that. With apologies to Celtics Nation. Tatum is great, but Anthony Davis is... I can't get there. I can't get there mentally.

Come on, man. I can't get there mentally. I think he's a future MVP candidate. To me, he's like in that Doncic class of, I just can't get there. If they said Horford and Tatum for Davis right now, let's go. I don't get there. If they said Horford and Tatum for Davis right now, let's go. I don't know.

That would be a tough one. Have you seen Anthony Davis play? I have. I have seen him play. I think he is probably the most talented power forward I've ever seen other than Duncan. Wouldn't you say? We might have to really start saying nice things about the East. If Anthony Davis, Embiid and Giannis are all in the same conference and Kawhi.

Oh my God. I saw it. So I saw Giannis in person on Saturday. Actually, let's take a break. Cause I want to talk about this. Hey, what a Carmelo Anthony, Matthew Delvedova, DraftKings, Tim Ferriss, The Ringer, nearly half a million entrepreneurs and businesses have in common. They've used 99designs to get custom design created for their brands, websites, and books. That's right. Today's show is brought to you by 99designs,

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So I saw Giannis in person on Saturday. And this rarely happens with NBA stars. It's like a final level. I'm not even positive it happened with Dirk. It might have, but I'm not positive. Giannis has reached a point that when he's in your town, you have to go. You just have to.

You have to go see the dude in person. And it is like the final level of NBA stardom where... Not only that, you have to go to Milwaukee. You have to go to Milwaukee. Oh my God. When was the last time we said that? I've just never seen a player like him. I've never seen a

player with his skill set. He is an absolute one of a kind. The weird thing about him is he's not even a finished product yet. I don't even think, I think he might be two years away from being as good as he's ever going to be. He doesn't, he can't really shoot. It's that the ball almost looks like a golf ball in his hands. I feel like his fingers are just too big. And he's just figured out how to get layups and dunks and runners and little follow-aways and offensive rebounds and putbacks and alley-oops. And he can get to 30 points without really having

kind of a go-to shot. I've never seen anything like it. He's the first non-center I've ever seen in my life who's a guaranteed 30, but isn't really a score. 20 points a night in the paint. Yeah. And he plays really, really hard. That's one of the things I love about him and I love about Zion. He's diving for balls. He's balls out the whole time. He never dogs it.

He's in phenomenal shape. He's trying to chase down blocks on every fast break. And the stuff that he does with the steps, with his ability to go from the three-point line to the basket in two steps, in the Euro steps, and his footwork, he's just incredible. And I can't say enough about what it's like to, you can't put a price high enough to go see him in person. There's been... Donchich is the only reason in Dallas now that five years later people could finally start to pretend

to come to grips with the fact that Donnie Nelson was begging the Mavs to draft this guy and they didn't. I mean, they could have had Giannis 5-6. I did that draft though. That wasn't a slam dunk by any means. There were a lot of possible red flags with that one

you don't think? the grainy film from the Greek YMCA Athens Y just like how rough his background was in Greece and just the thought of getting him into America and putting him here and putting him in the

NBA. Like what kind of a leap that was? I hope he's great. I actually, Milwaukee is actually, I love going there as a visitor. I wouldn't, can't sit here and say that I would move there,

but I don't mind dropping in even in the dead of winter to visit there. And I love how much he loves Milwaukee. I really hope he stays. I think it's a great story that he's fallen in love with Milwaukee. I think he stays. And honestly, it's one of those things like, I remember I had Durant on a podcast once

talking about why he loved the University of Texas. And I was like, you're only there eight months. Like, who cares? Like, if it's like this small moment of your life. And he was like, you're only there eight months. Who cares? It was this small moment of your life. He was like, up until that point, he'd grown up in DC and obviously came from no money whatsoever. It was the first time he had a nice room with a bed and a place to eat every day and all these new people to hang out with. And it just meant so much to him. That was like the first time he'd ever had all that.

And I do think there's part of that with Giannis going to Milwaukee where, from where he came from to he's thrown into this situation. And then from day one, it's like, you have this nice place. You have money. You have all these people who love you. That's a really hard thing to walk away from. So I, one of my favorite, one of my favorite stories. One of my first stories I got to do for the times was they sent me to Milwaukee to a Yonah. And I, you know, I'm sure you probably heard it. He wanted, you know, he moved before last season. He moved from the first place he was living in, into a bigger house. Yeah. And he wanted to have a garage sale because, you know,

he always says, I'm a world-class seller. You know, when he was a kid, he had always hot goods to make money in Greece. And he still wanted to have a garage sale and sell all his stuff. And the Bucks were like,

you can't, you're Giannis Antetokounmpo, you can't have a garage sale. You can't, people can't come to your house oh my god that's a great story who's in your top four this guy's in town I have to make sure I'm at this game right now

yeah I mean he's definitely one of them you know Embiid I just love he doesn't play a beautiful game. Yeah. But I love the whole, I just think as an entertainer,

he's, he's as good as we've got right now. Yeah. I would say what he might say, what he might do. Yeah. The Embiid Simmons combo is, is kind of a must see at this point.

And now you throw Butler in the mix, because I think Butler is another hot stir. So, I mean, they've got quite a crew of irritants there. If they get a bench, they're going to be a handful. And I think Davis in person, it's not like

a drop everything and go see him, but it's like a tiny bit below to the next level. It is, it's fun to see him once but it's like a tiny bit below to the next level. It is. It's fun to see him once just because of that. You're just not prepared for this green and raw alley hoops in person. It doesn't seem like he's going to get to the ball. I love Kemba and I love Jokic.

Oh, Jokic is a good one. Jokic is like, he looks like he came out of a, you know, like a beer league. His uniform doesn't fit. is like he looks like he came out of a you know like a beer league you see him his uniform doesn't fit he has my body and the guy is killing it how in shape is Luka Doncic right now

on a scale of 1 to 10 he takes a lot of grief for it here and certainly I think his conditioning is going to have to improve I don't totally understand how it can even be an issue when you're 19 and playing hoops every day i mean i don't know about you but at 18 19 i was still a stick so i i just i don't know why

he's always played a little bit on the heavy side, but to me, that's like, he's going to figure that out. Yeah, I agree. He'll learn the diet. He'll learn the NBA way. And that just means he'll go to another, you know, he'll probably go up a couple of notches because of that. I mean, he, yeah, I don't see that as any kind of real concern.

I know people love to fixate on it. You know, look, he's played. He's going to go through something. He's going to have some sort of slump or next season it'll be sophomore jinx or whatever it is. I mean, he's not just going to have this straight line pass to the Hall of Fame. All these guys hit that period where they look like they've taken, I mean, Donovan Mitchell is going through right now, it looks like they've taken a step back and they forget how to play and they gotta work through it so

there's no question he's gonna have challenges along the way but he's so far ahead of the game from what we expected Well, I think what sets him apart, I said this I said this last week I think what sets him apart from a lot of these other great rookies

and even somebody like Mitchell last year, Luka can go four for nine for 13 points and be the best player in the game. And that is the difference. When you can control a game offensively without taking a lot of shots, that's not a long list, especially for non-point guards. We've seen point guards do it, but not perimeter players. It just doesn't happen very often. Hey, let's talk about Dirk and the Pantheon because you've said this to me.

It's really interesting because obviously Dallas is Cowboys first Cowboys second Cowboys third Cowboys fourth and then probably Mavs fifth and then

I don't know who else after maybe the Rangers the whatever hockey team you have and yet Dirk is the most famous

I've heard you say this about that. He's the biggest Dallas athlete. And I'm trying to think like, all right. Well, look for our age, you know, we're, you and I are the same age for our age. It's Tom Landry. It's Roger Staubach. But like kids now today, you know, my kids don't, don't know Roger Staubach. Like the Cowboys have obviously had, you obviously had multiple Super Bowls and great runs.

Aikman, Irvin, Smith. But does any one Cowboy pop like Nowitzki pops in Dallas? I would argue no. The guy's got 21 years with the same team, never been done before, past Kobe. He's going to finish as the sixth all-time leading scorer, 30,000 points, changed his position, pledged eternal loyalty to this city, never even thought about leaving. You know, what do we start out talking about? The seven, eight years of misery since the championship has never looked at going elsewhere. You don't think that, you know,

the Warriors wouldn't have wanted him as a hired gun off the bench at some point. I mean, he could have gone somewhere, but he doesn't even look anywhere else. I mean, he is, I call him the godfather of Dallas sports. When something happens in Dallas, when the Cowboys win or lose, when the Rangers have a heartbreaking ending to a season,

when people are sitting around Dallas, wait, what's Dirk going to tweet? What message is he going to tweet to try to cheer up Cowboys fans after a bad loss or something? I mean, that's kind of the role he has in Dallas. So you think once he won the title, that's all he cared about? I mean, yes, it just changed. It changed his place in history and it gave him peace. I mean, you know, I don't know if he'll ever admit it or put it like that, but if he didn't have the

championship and we would all look at him differently, and I don't think he would be able to put up with these last, is this year eight since the championship? I mean, yeah, he would have, he would have had to go somewhere else if it didn't work out. So,

I mean, the championship did change. It changed the time. Would you have him top 20 if he didn't have a championship? Yeah, it was probably because of the 30,000 points, but he would have been right in there with Malone and Barkley and those guys.

Yeah. I think ironically, he would have won one anyway because I think he ends up on the 2015 Warriors, right? That first Warriors team? At some point, that team was smart enough to have pursued it. There's this whole slide in Doris' history where that's where

he goes and he becomes basically a way better Sam Perkins for three straight Warriors teams and makes some threes and all that. I love that he stayed. It's so hard to imagine that now. But yeah, if it's 2015 and he hasn't

won one by then, I think he probably could have talked to Vince. Well, your dude Nash, he's been on this pod a couple times. And we've talked a lot about whether if you don't win a title, is your career still fully complete if you're a superstar? And I think he's come to grips with it over the last few years because he was on some great teams. And you see him do this, and you've seen Barkley do this,

and some other people who were just great players who easily could have won a title, and a couple of breaks went against them, and it didn't happen. And they've talked themselves into just kind of how much luck you need. And I think you talked to Nash about 05, 06, 07. They really could have won any of those years if an injury doesn't happen or if a bad break or whatever. And even the 2010 team,

our test making that crazy putback shot, they had a chance to make the finals that year. And it seems like they eventually hit a level where they just are at peace with everything. You know? And so now Dirk's at this- To me, Nash and Barkley are wired just so uniquely. Like Nash really is one of a kind in terms of how much he put into the game during his career

and now in his afterlife, he's not around basketball a ton. He's with the Warriors a couple times a month, two, three days. He's in contact with Kerr and staff people there, but it's not,

I mean, he's broadcasting all the soccer now. He's got his, you know, his movie pursuits. I mean, there are so many other things in his life that you just don't see guys wired like he is. And then Barkley is, you know, just loves life, lives his best life all the time. It's, I mean,

for the mega star that he is, I can't, I mean, he and Shaq are both just remarkable how comfortable they are around crowds and people and everybody wanting to piece them. Like, they're just, like, do we really, like, John Stockton, will we ever know how it fits with him that he didn't win at all? Can we ever get to that answer? Probably not. You know, Karl Malone, I would love to know how he really feels about it. I'm not sure we'll ever get that answer.

Patrick Ewing, I don't know that it's easy for those guys as it is. Nash and Barkley just live a different kind of life than most humans. Well, Karl Malone's probably on a tractor right now, so I think he's fine. He's probably just going through some cornfield on some giant farm. Probably not thinking about it. I mean, he did go to the Lakers and take one of the most sizable pay cuts in NBA history because he wanted a ring.

Yeah. I think Dirk would have done it. Dirk would have done it. I think he's too competitive. But it's funny how it just kind of goes away after. You know, the Mavs had all the big sexual harassment,

that whole scandal that dragged on and on for six, seven months and was really bad and really reflected badly on Cuban. How much of an effect did that have on the franchise and how much has Luka helped of uh help them come out of the haze of that now that the season has started you really don't hear much discussion about it um so you know the it hit was it like February's when it came out last year and the investigation kind of consumed the whole summer when people aren't really paying attention. So yeah, because of Luca, because the team has started pretty well, it's faded to the background for now. But, you know, I even say myself that, you know, I don't

know if you remember this, but in 1998, I was still at the Dallas Morning News, and I wrote a story about the Mavs investigated Tordima Usri for sexual harassment. And at the time, it's still probably the hardest story I've ever had to cover. You know, that's real news, not, you know, Trevor Ariza's getting traded. This is real world stuff. I was a young reporter, didn't really know what I was doing, did the best I could on it. But, you know, after that, you know, I dropped the ball too. I, I, you know, I was no longer the beat writer, so I didn't know everyone in the organization

like I did back then. But, you know, I'm so focused on transactions and just championships and all the things that we get wrapped up in. And I never followed up on it either. You know, when, when, when all, when the depths of that came out, I mean, I was shocked. I was really disappointed in myself that like, I can't believe some of these stories and I've, I've never heard them like it. It was bad. It was, it was, it was really, really sordid.

And I think the sad reality is a lot more of that is happening in the NBA than, It was bad. It was really, really sordid. And I think the sad reality is a lot more of that is happening in the NBA than has come out. And we'll probably hear more stories like that, unfortunately. What was the reaction in Dallas and how did it affect Cuban's kind of legacy and standing there? I don't feel like because, you know, again, because it all played out in the summer and, you know, he made the big donation, but you know, there was no longstanding penalty. I don't know that people are really even talking about it. I mean, anymore. I don't think I haven't really asked. I haven't really taken a poll. So, I mean, maybe I'm just speculating here, but I haven't really heard it raised that, oh, this is going to damage his legacy. I mean, you know, we judge,

we judge owners on championships and, you know, he's been so committed to the Mavs and is so synonymous with the Mavs. I mean, it's a great question. I, you know, I don't know. I don't know if it, you know, to what degree it quotes sticks. Yeah. It did seem like it faded away, but I also agree with you that, I think there's going to be more stories in the NBA. There's 30 teams. In all sports. I mean, let, let, let,'s going to be more stories in the NBA. There's 30 teams. In all sports. Yeah. It's terrible.

I mean, what just happened at the Ballon d'Or ceremony in soccer. Right. I mean, are you kidding me? It's unbelievable. The way women get treated in the sports realm, it just, it, it, it blows your mind. How, uh, how has life been different since you ended up at the New York times?

It's really been cool. Like I'm still, I'm such a newspaper geek to this day that like, I just, every time I'm in the paper, you know, the New York Times is a news organization. The paper is only one part of it. I mean, it really prides itself on the whole digital experience that the Times has. And obviously the Daily is this hugely successful news podcast, but you know, like I'm, I'm still an old school. Wow. I'm in the paper. Yeah. I love this. When I'm in, when I'm in, when I'm in the Sunday or Monday paper, I'm just,

when I'm in the international version of the times I'm, you can't even talk to me that day. I'm giddy. Yeah. You still like the, the actual crafting of the story and the reporting and all that stuff. The last, the last few years, especially when we worked together at ESPN, it was becoming something of an arms race on, you know, who got the story first, who got the scoop, who was able to get on the ESPN bottom line ticker.

I remember we would talk about it. Yeah, that's all they cared about is news. I mean, you know, just, you know, even is Luka Doncic playing? And I give me eight paragraphs as fast as you can. I mean, that's what they care about. I never, we would argue about it because I never understood, like, who freaking cares who got the scoop? Like, it's going to come out anyway.

Oh, this guy reported this. Like, everyone's making themselves so crazy trying to make sure they don't get beat on these different things. But actually, I was wrong. It became not only a cottage industry, but it really became this arms race that I just never... I think it's one of the biggest things that's changed about the NBA this decade is the, because I think the audience has the tools to follow it minute by minute now better than they did 10 years ago. So that's like, I always,

my, my theory on it is like the audience and I do it in the sports that I'm passionate about as a fan, we see all the games. So we think we can coach better than the coach. We think we can GM better than the GM. Why am I going to listen to the writer? They don't want your opinion, but what they, what the audience, what the public doesn't have is the rumors, the, what might happen, who might get traded, who might get fired. That's the piece that people want to be armed with.

So if you can deliver that, there's value in that. Right. Do you like where this is going, though? Because I feel like I like it in some ways, but I also feel like there's more favor trading than ever. And we're now in a situation where, especially you make friends with somebody who's like a director of scouting or an assistant coach or like, you know, three levels below in the GM.

And that person will feed, I'm not saying you, by the way, I'm just saying in general, you really get in an organization, you make friends with the lower rung people. And then as will feed, I'm not saying you, by the way, I'm just saying in general. In an organization, you make friends with the lower rung people. And then as they ascend, there's some favor trading. And then it leads to the whole, a job opens up. Oh, you know who'd be great for this job? And you're recommending your friend, basically.

And then you have people that are in power as a GM or a coach. And you, you know, generic reporter as a GM or a coach and you, you know, generic reporter helps them get there a little bit. And now they get all the information from it. And I just wonder if it's too cushy now. I don't like, I look at somebody like I tweeted yesterday about Kenny Atkinson,

the Brooklyn guy. And when he got hired, I was like, great hire Kenny Atkinson, great hire. I watched the Nets games. I think they're like eight and 17. They're a mess in the last three minutes of every game. They're really bad. Like they've blown more games, I think, than anybody I've watched on League Pass this year. They run bad plays coming out of timeouts. They give up plays. Like, I'm not sure he's a good coach, but if you just follow it on Twitter, you'd think he's like, you know,

the next Red Auerbach. And I just, my thing is I'm not, I am more reluctant to believe stuff than I think I've ever been before with basketball coverage. Is that weird? No, I know what you're saying. And is there some of what you described?

No question. Because look, everybody in this space, there's great pressure to try to get information. I mean, everybody, there's, the thing to me about basketball journalism today is there are so many good people doing it. Take the news piece out of it. Just writing features, which is, you know, now become my emphasis at the time, to come up with a good idea in the NBA for a story that has never been written, that's as hard as breaking five stories. There are so many good writers right now who are covering the league. Every single day,

there are two or three features that you just go must read. I got, I got to save this. I got to read this late. I mean, the league is just covered to such an insane degree that, you know, it's,

it's, it's a challenge, but I can only speak for the way I try to do it. And no matter what I hear, no matter who tells me something, you know, I still try to get it from two or three other people to make sure it's right to make sure I'm not being led astray. That's your responsibility to make sure

we get lied to every single day in this league. That's the way it is. Reporters get told stuff, but we also get lied to. And it's your job to try to figure out when you're being played. I mean, that's, that's, it's your responsibility to do that. I, I'm probably, I probably follow this too closely and know too much, but I've been annoyed by how much, uh, how much water is being carried for people these days, just in general. And you can kind of see who the three or four people, everybody has that they're just gonna write the most flattering thing about it. It's almost turned into, it's the basketball version of like the celebrity journalism from,

from Vanity Fair or places like that. But you know, I think the readers see it too. I hope so. The public is, the basketball public is so much smarter than it was. I mean, there are so many readers who know the cap better than I do,

and it's my job to know it. I mean, it's just, you know, it's just different from when we were in high school or college as huge fans of the league. I mean, the modern fan is so much more educated. So, I mean, when those tweets go out,

you know, look in the comments, you see plenty of responses like, oh, you're just, you know, talking up this guy because he's your guy. I mean, people see it, they know. Well, you know what's crazy is how the coverage of the coverage has become something where you have a situation,

especially with the internet message boards, things like that. But this is a crazy thing happened a couple of weeks ago. Chris Haynes, who writes for Yahoo, was seen in the stands at a Laker game with Brandon Williams, the Kings assistant GM, for a while. And they were clearly talking. And then like seven days later, Chris Haynes wrote a piece about how the Kings management was really dissatisfied with Dave Yeager. He wasn't playing baggily enough. And everybody kind of connected the dots and said he was the source of it.

Then he disappeared for a week for some mysterious reason. They said it was like family illness or something happened. And then he came back and Yeager kicked him out of practice. And it was like, this is all stuff that would never have happened 10 years ago where you're talking to a source at a game and people are actually watching. I noticed that summer league, like if you're, if you're at summer league out of bounds,

journalist to journalist, that is such a violation. I cannot believe that stuff was written. Like, so, okay. So I'm talking, you see me at a game talking to whoever, and you automatically know that that's the source of my story.

You heard what we were talking about. Like, I can't believe that happened. Like it's, you know, so that that's so far out of bounds for a journalist to do that to another journalist. I can't even put a number on but now we have so many journalists at these games and Brian Curtis wrote a thing by the way, so explain to Brian Curtis

he wrote the thing about the sidling up, explain the origins of that story, because we didn't know it when we wrote the story he talked to Windhorse for it I don't know if Brian heard it from some other thing. I just know within ESPN walls, Ramona and I used to, like, we would call it sidling.

And I, I, I stole it from a Seinfeld episode. You know, I'm a huge Seinfeld fan. And there's the whole Seidler episode where there's the guy in Elaine's office who sidles up to her when she's not looking. And yeah, so I just so Ramona and I just always called it sidling. We got to sidle. We got to find a way to, you know, sidle. You know, how do we sidle LeBron? How do we get him away from the pack? And, you know, the following guys, you know, following guys to the bus has just become... And that's with the Warriors especially.

The Warriors, it is hilarious to watch after a game the race of reporters to try to follow KD out the door and follow Steph out the door. So yeah, we jokingly would call it sidling. So it got passed down to the Windhorse generation. You should be honored. You're the godfather of it. No, I think Windhorse said that he heard it from some, I think

Chris Thomason is the one that he heard it from, and I guess Chris Thomason is probably also. Whoever said it is a Seinfeld fan. It's a Seinfeld reference. So whoever, it's an arms race now. You're in the locker room. It's a Seinfeld reference. So whoever, it's an arms race now. You're in the locker room.

There's more people than ever. And everybody's just trying to get somebody to one-on-one. But as they're doing it, three other people are watching them do it and wondering. It just must be so hard to get unnamed sources the conventional way. The easy way now is to DM and texting, right?

Because we didn't have that 10 years ago. It's a two-fold thing. On the negative side, there's more people at games than ever. When I was just a beat writer 20 years ago, even after the Mavs got Nash and the Mavs have Nash, the Vitsky and Finley and Cuban, the owner and the coach, still a lot of practices was just the Star Telegram and me yeah you were the only two writers you know maybe a couple of maybe there's five writers maybe there's seven but you know

nothing compared to now i mean games trying to have a conversation at a game you got to have a prior relationship with the player to try to get them alone or just it's just not going to happen now for the most part reporters still respect if you know if i walk in the lake or locker room and i see chris haynes is talking to lebron one-on-one i'm not going to join that conversation right it's you respect the one-on-one and you don't intrude on that but you've got to have the relationship to get the one-on-one then there's's the flip side. Then there's Twitter, where all these players follow writers, and you can have Twitter relationships with the guys. Now, that's something I know you always talk about Bob Ryan, and he always talks about the glory days and how

it'll never be as good as that. And to a degree, I'll agree with him. I don't want to disagree too loudly with the legend that is Bob Ryan, but Twitter has given us the ability to connect with players away from the court that obviously his generation didn't have. Yeah, it's funny. His generation, I've talked about this before, but one of my favorite basketball books is called The Short Season by John Powers. He spent a year with the 78 Boston Celtics. And a big part of it, you're reading it, and he's just after the games going to the Scotch and Sirloin and having steak dinners with Dave Cowens and, you know,

John Havlicek. And it's like, wow, this had never happened before. But you know what wouldn't happen? I'm so jealous of that era. I know, but you know what? That would have been awesome. Getting cocktails with Tommy Heinsohn in the hotel bar at three in the morning as he's telling you how much he hates Sidney Wicks.

Flying with these guys the next morning, they're all on the same commercial flight. Oh, yeah. And they're connecting. When I started, I started in the 93, 94 season. Charters had just become the norm. Pretty much everybody was chartering by the time I started. So I never got, like when I started, I did at least get to stay at the team hotel on occasion, but I never had that experience of actually flying with, you know, Hey, Larry Bird's on my flight. You know, I mean, that would

have been, that would just would have been incredible. Yeah. I mean, you have 40 years ago, you're on a flight with the Celtics going to Detroit, but you're connecting through Washington and it's a two hour delay and you're just in the airport with six Celtics getting tidbits from them. Joel Embiid follows me on Twitter. I think I'll DM him. Oh, now I have this relationship with him. Hey, blah, blah, blah. Now all of a sudden you have immediate access to these guys. And as you know, they spend a lot of time looking at their phones. And they have their headphones on. The human interaction is not going to be the same. I was just in California and my best friend from high school,

named Dave, out of the business. He's not a journalist at all. He just asked me, do these guys really look at their phones? And I'm like, you should see the Warriors after. You walk into the Warriors locker room after a game, they're all on their phone. They're scrolling, whether it's, I don't know if they're scrolling through Twitter or Instagram or whatever it is,

but you see them scrolling, all of them. It's like nephew Kyle right now. Oh no, he's actually listening. He's paying attention. Sorry. Uh, yeah, no, it's, it's, it's funny. That era from 40 years ago kind of defined what that era was like, right? Everything's human interaction. We didn't have any sort of internet, anything. We didn't have cable really. And everything was done face-to-face and how you handled your business and all that stuff. And now this current era of basketball reporting kind of reflects what life is like. It's much harder to get one-on-ones with people. It's much harder to have those interactions like that. But you also have 24-7 access to basically anyone you want. If you're Mark Stein or Chris Haynes or Zach Lowe or name anybody, it's a never-ending well of people you

can reach out to with little quick texts. Hey man, nice game tonight. Whoa, what'd you think of the Butler trade? You're in somebody's life constantly, but you don't even have to interact with them. Sometimes they ask you without you even asking them. Oh yeah. It's beautiful. Yeah, that's good. That's what I know.

You're in. Cause I don't want to take this for granted. The other thing, if, if, if the basketball public didn't have the appetite for this stuff that it has, I don't know that it would be this way.

I mean, that this is my 26th season, and the league has never been hotter. And people can't get enough. you know, it just seems like every day there's something else crazy. And, you know, you see it

when Rachel Nichols does her show, and every day they're diving into some drama and you got World Wide Wob and it's all his, you know, video captures and it's just like, it's just every day. And you can't, you cannot feed the beast enough right now.

The only thing that hasn't changed is that the Knicks still suck. Yeah, but you're willing them Zion. They're going to be fixed. They're going to willing them Zion. They're going to be fixed. They're going to sign KD. They're going to have Zion. They'll have KP. Those fans deserve it, man.

So I went back to New York for William Goldman's memorial on Saturday. And I left with one speaker to go because I wanted to go to the Knicks-Bucks game. And I thought, if anyone would have appreciated this, it would have been Goldman, who loved the Knicks more than anyone and went to 50 straight years of games.

And I was thinking, like, the last 20 years of this guy's life, the Knicks were terrible, basically. It's so long. My daughter's 13 now. It feels like she's been in my life for 100 years. Like, the Knicks have been terrible for 18 years. my daughter's 13 now it feels like she's been in my life for a hundred years like the Knicks have been terrible for 18 years

she's they've been terrible for five more years than she's been born other than these little tiny blips and I don't know

it's the one fan base now that the Warriors have been taken care of because they had a great fan base I think the Suns the Suns have had at least fun teams over the years

and good stars and great moments you know and like the Kings would be I guess the other one but the Kings don't have the generations of fans

that I think the Knicks have but you start going through the fan bases the Knicks are clearly the number one choice the Buffalo Braves I know those fans

are pretty tortured don't get me started on the Braves don't get me started on the Braves do people even know that no I mean look the Knicks NSG is still my favorite place to go for a game still not those fans are pretty tortured. Don't get me started on the Braves. Don't get me started on the Braves. Do people even know that? No, I mean, look,

MSG is still my favorite place to go for a game. Still, not, our media seats have gotten considerably worse over the years, so that killed it some, because, man, for most of my time covering the league,

we would get those baseline seats at MSG, and just, I mean, just unbelievable atmosphere. You really just felt like you were at the heart. It's unbelievable. It's great. every time you went to that building.

I would say Boston, Oakland, and the Knicks are the three best experiences. But I got to say, 2011 Finals in Dallas was pretty great. I don't know if that crowd brings it to the table week after week, but just for that Finals, it was pretty great.

The arena has been pretty full for your guy, Don. It's been live. My dude! You know, I will say, Boston has shot up my rank because I discovered Sal's Pizza, the best arena pizza. I normally never

eat at the arena. Never. But they have those giant Sal's Pizza slices. Those are just epic. I think food at arenas is going to be one of the big trends over the next 10 years. These celebrity chefs, because they could actually make money. My friend Chang, who has a podcast with us, he has a thing at the US Open and I think at the Mets games.

My guess is that more and more that's going to be happening, but we'll have to, maybe that'll be a topic for a house of carbs. Um, Stiney Mo, this is a pleasure. 12, 12 years since our first podcast almost, uh, I'm glad we were able to do this again. You're going to come back, right? Anytime you need my man. Anytime. All right. It was great talking to you. I'll talk to you soon. All right. So we're going to bring in Chris Ryan and talk about this Markel Fultz thing which broke a little bit late for us

but we wanted to get it in there because it's such a strange story first the fantasy playoffs are fast approaching and if your team is not in the championship mix for your real fantasy there's always daily fantasy you know I've been playing every week I won two weeks ago on FanDuel.

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apply for full eligibility rules and terms and conditions go to Fando.com alright it is late Tuesday afternoon West Coast time

the Markel Fultz the latest in the saga broke today Chris Ryan what's your title editorial director of the ringer yeah it's a great title thanks man nice can I just say The Markel Foltz, the latest in the saga, broke today. Chris Ryan, what's your title? Editorial Director of The Ringer? Yeah.

That's a great title. Thanks, man. Nice. Can I just say I want to honor it as to be like the opening act for Steiny Mo? It's great. Like for 15 years, just been listening to you and Mark and the old three-man weave pods with Buke. It's like one of my favorite podcast combos. This is great.

I'm glad you're here as well. Didn't expect you to be here. No. I mean, I guess it's like I'm always on Sixers duty, right? Like, they're just, they're never boring. I don't feel like we've had the full false conversation.

It's been awkward for us. This whole year has been awkward for us. You and I? Yeah, because we had the Eagles-Pats Super Bowl. Yeah, that's right. Bauman got a Philly special tattoo. Gonzalez is, all his stuff in our slacks are coated little anti-Boston things.

And then the false Tatum thing got super awkward. Uh-huh. And now it's not even awkward anymore. It's kind of sad. It's just sad. Yeah, now it's just sad. I think that's the reason why you're not seeing some of the same gawking that happens. I mean, obviously, there's a lot of speculation and everybody's wondering what's going on

but there's NBA stories where people are like oh my god we gotta just get into the bottom of this and this one it's a little bit more like everybody's like there's a kid at the center of this that's just kind of sad well so for people who didn't hear this story

his agent Raymond Brothers announced that he has TOS. He has this nerve damage in his shoulder that was diagnosed after they met with 10 different specialists. Not one of whom, in the article that Adrian Wojnarowski wrote, not one of the specialists was

attached by name to the story. We have no idea. Was it six of them said it? Was it three? Did they find just one? Were they shopping for the opinion that they wanted? Now they have a reason to back up why he wasn't playing well,

why he had the hitch, all that stuff. And I got to be honest, I don't know how true it is. And I don't know if any of us know. I don't know if it's a cover-up because they feel like he's gone off the rails a little bit. I don't even know. I just don't know. I don't,

I don't know either, you know, and I follow this team as closely as I possibly can from here. And I feel like this has been one of those really interesting mysteries because it feels like there's something at the center of it that is almost like nobody wants to talk about. You know what I mean? Like there's so many stories out there in the NBA where you're like, oh, I'm going to get you the real dirt on this. Or we're going to get to the bottom of this.

And this just seems to be somewhere in this weird gray area between the head and the body. And that nobody can really properly figure it out. And people tiptoeing because they don't want to either impugn the kid or make it seem like there's something really wrong with them or whatever. And maybe to our collective credit, we've all become a little bit more sensitive talking about emotional or mental health

problems. You know what I mean? And if that is something that he's battling, which I think has been speculated about a lot, but Brothers addressed that today. But Brothers addressed that Woj tweeted that out. That Brothers said that this was like, I've heard the people of suggesting this is a mental problem. It's not. It's no way a number one pick

suddenly can't raise his arms above his head. And we've finally figured out what the physical problem is here. So here's why I'm suspicious. Because in September and October, the talk was about how great he was doing. That was when he was working with Drew Hamill.

He was going to start. He's doing awesome. Things are looking up. Might make the all defense. It's looking that good. And now it's like, oh, this whole time something's been wrong. We've heard so many different versions of what's going on that my head's officially splitting. We've had scapular imbalance.

We've had removal of fluid, the replacement of fluid. But then saying that that never happened and that the fluid actually was never a problem. So, Raymond Brothers, here are his clients. I'm just going to read the list. Zach Randolph, Markel Fultz, DJ Augustine, El Faruq Aminu, Jerrion Grant, Mitchell Robinson, Daniel House,

Trevor Duvall. He works for IAM Sports. I wouldn't call him a super agent. Yeah, but to be fair fair there's a bunch of guys out there who have an agent who they you know they are their agent's main concern you know right yeah but I'm just saying like he's so he's got this guy

in his life not a super agent he has Drew Hanlon who we don't know what the F is going on with that guy he is this whole new era now of these shooting coaches who are also like little mini celebrities and have this weird power

over these dudes and don't want any money from them, but just... There was also the whole story last year of this guy, Keith Williams, who was his shooting coach or his trainer in some way,

but also had a relationship to the family. And that was a lot of where... I mean, there's just been, honestly, when I talk about Markel Fultz, I just can't even remember what's myth and what's real. You know what I mean? Like I was just about to say something and I'm like, did we ever actually like figure that out?

Was this, was like, cause like there was stuff in Dietrich's Colangelo piece earlier this year that referenced pieces of information about Fultz that were like unconfirmable. You know what I mean? Unless you were one of three people within the Sixers organization. But there are rumors out there.

There are these videos of Fultz shooting while he's lying down. You know what I mean? Like these things that are like it's become almost like a like an urban legend or something like that. And then you have his coach

at Washington, right? Got fired after he left. Wasn't that what happened? He went 9-8? Yeah, but they were terrible. Yeah. I'm just going through all the people in his life. So he's got that guy.

Not a lot of help there. Then he has the Sixers organization, which has been a fucking shit show. And we played a small part in it with the Colangelo story, but they didn't really replace him all summer. They had Brett Brown doing double duty as basically GM and coach. I'm not even sure Brett Brown is a good coach. Are you sure he's a good coach? I'm sure he's the kind of coach who would give Markel every shot at being successful.

Do you think he's a good coach, though? We don't know yet. I'll tell you after this playoffs. Okay. But yeah, I like Brett Brown. Have that. They hire a new GM. There's weird.

It's just, I can't think of a worse position for a young guy to be put in on top of the whole Tatum trade. He goes to Philly. He's the final piece of the process. Let's take the Embiid-Simmons things. If this did turn out to be more mental than physical,

I feel really bad for him because it does make sense. I think it could be both. You know what I mean? I think both things can be true. I think that the physical stuff, if it was not diagnosed or if they were having a hard time diagnosing it, or if, I mean, look, if you look out there,

how many stories do you come across where it was like, there was something wrong with me and I couldn't figure it out and I thought I was going crazy until I finally met this doctor or that doctor or I figured it out. It was this, it was that, it was the other thing. So it's not like completely unheard of that people can sometimes look for the diagnosis that explains what's going on with their body. But I do think for somebody like this, who's probably like at a pretty sensitive, vulnerable age, if he's got some things that are screwed up with his body, that they did impact his mind and make him uncomfortable on the basketball court. If he had always been used to being completely healthy.

Right. And this is the first time he'd ever struggled really with anything. Right. And I think that especially in today's NBA, that lack of outside shooting stuff, it's just like you're watching him and you're watching how he just is never going to take a shot beyond 22 feet. You know what I mean? So he's just, if he's not a threat beyond the foul line at all, you're just kind of like focusing in on that. And you're fascinated by like, oh, he's obviously making up.

With Ben Simmons, we don't even talk about it because it's just, Ben's just not going to do it. But with Markell, there's like the promise of it. And you're just like, well, there's just got to be something wrong with his head. If he can do all this other stuff, but he just won't pull up. I saw him either preseason or start of the season. Can't remember. And there were moments when he really looked good.

Yes. That's where I think the mental stuff comes into it. Right. So that's another reason why I'm a little dubious to this, because he would have these quarters where the athleticism was kind of jaw-dropping. And you go, wow, somebody this quick cannot fail. This is not like watching Hashim Thabit try to run looking like he had concrete sneakers on.

Or Bennett being like going through what he's going through. This is like a six foot six fat guy, basically. This isn't working. Darko just always looked like, you know, somebody who had been in the Lost Boys. And wasn't the whole thing with Darko too that he had a bad attitude? Yeah. You watch him on the sideline and it was just like,

that guy doesn't look like he's ever going to be an NBA star. He looks like he was an extra in the Lost Boys or something. But this Fultz thing, he clearly does have talent. Yeah. He's not a bust. No, this wasn't Bennett because everybody, he was the consensus number one. He was the guy with a much higher ceiling than Tatum at the time.

One of my hottest takes is that Anthony Bennett was 10 years too late. 10 years too late? Yeah. Oh, because if he had played in the 90s, he would have been Larry Johnson or something? He makes more sense in 2003 or 1998. He's super physical, power forward. But now it's like,

once the league started changing right as he showed up, where is he going to play? It's just so, I mean, going number one, just. And that on top of it. It's just so tough. I mean, think about like the guys like Bennett. I mean, we even do this to Wiggins now. You know what I mean? Especially now because he signed his new deal.

But it's just like, if Bennett wound up having Michael Kidd Gilchrist career, I don't know if we would have necessarily talked about him that much. You know what I mean? Isn't it crazy? You think we would know more about basketball than ever and how to evaluate with top three guys, right?

Yeah. The stats are the best they've ever been. The video, the ability to... You can make a video of every single offensive move Markel Fultz made when he was in college and just splice that and watch it one after the other for five hours. And yet, teams are still missing on top five picks

more than ever. Like, look at the Markel Fultz draft. There might be, you might have Fultz, Josh Jackson, and Lonzo, who I'm still,

I'll buy all your Lonzo stock. I'm wavering just a wee bit. But you might have three of the five might never make an all-star team. And two of the five might be out of the league by the time they're 28,

for all we know. If you told me Josh Jackson's going to be out of the league when he's 28, I wouldn't bet my life against it. Like, his minutes have gone down. Josh Jackson and Markel Fultz probably will get another shot with another team somewhere. Well, and then you end up like the Knicks-Bucks game I went to this weekend where you're watching Emmanuel Moutier and Noah Vonley.

Moutier was picked seventh and Vonley was picked ninth and both of them were highly regarded and wrong spots. It happens. My point is, I'm just amazed that people can still whiff on these high picks.

Jaleel Okafor. There's whiffing. Bennett. Fultz. There's whiffing, but then there's, I think Fultz is different because I, and I know that this is an incredibly whiffing, but then there's, I think Fultz is different because I,

and I know that this is an incredibly small sample size, but whatever people saw, like I didn't watch a lot of Washington, but I loved what I saw of him. And then I saw him in the, in the one game that he was playing in Vegas summer league, where just that first quarter before, or first half before he rolled his ankle.

Yeah. But he looked fine. He looked dynamic. He looked like he was capable of making plays and shooting and all that stuff he rolls his ankle, they shut him down for summer league and then somewhere in there is the speculative mystery injury

or whenever he's aggravated this thing but there's just no definitive timeline and because you can tell that there is some tension between brothers in the franchise you're never going to get the true story but there's just no definitive timeline. And because you can tell that there is some tension between brothers in the franchise, you're never going to get the true story.

Yeah, I wonder, when I said whiff, by the way, I meant more like just to pick it and work out for whatever reason. You would think like if you're in the top three, especially with all the tubes that tank now, you'd think like top three, well, at least we're guaranteed to get somebody good now and it's like you're not

you don't know what the F's gonna happen I think Zion is the all time can't miss in a while maybe since Davis I mean like we'll look back now and we'll be like I just can't believe anybody overthought this Luka thing you know what I mean I just can't believe anybody was like,

maybe Aiden, maybe Trey instead of Luca. It was a great day for the Ringer staff. I will mention that pretty much everyone on the Ringer staff also loved Fultz, which goes to show you, like, you never really know. I have a couple of quick questions. Yeah, sure. We always talk about when Fultz spent two days with Boston.

And then whatever they saw, whatever happened, they immediately traded the pick or tried to, whatever happened and within a week. There was a famous, infamous, at least in the ringer, picture of Fultz. It's like a black and white photo of Fultz

in a concourse at TD Garden. And he's looking at a picture of Bob Cousy and the Celtics tweeted it out and we're essentially like the next generation. And I was like, okay, they're going to take Fultz and we'll have our choice of Ball, Tatum, whoever. And then two days later, they did the trade.

Yeah. And I was there in Boston a couple of times for playoff games, talking to the people I know and never got the indication from anyone that it was anyone other than Fultz. And not even like smokescreen. I think everybody was like, oh yeah, of course they're taking Fultz.

Like if you go back and read the thing Danny wrote for us the night of the lottery or the stuff KOC wrote, it was like Fultz is the top. Yes. And then after that, it's a debate. Lonzo, Tatum, Josh Jackson, whoever. One of my goals in life is to find out

what happened during those 48 hours with Fultz. It's an incredible mystery. Where they did a 180 on the guy. But you would think that all of their research would have been done prior to that, right? They spent time with him. They have like secret. They're in the brain doctor.

They have that stuff. The brain doctor almost led them to Robert Swift that year. But they've always kind of dabbled in that psychoanalysis stuff with the draft picks and heavy medical stuff. They have like a great injury staff. So my question is, they saw a red flag. Let's say it was the nerve damage thing. Or let's say it was something mental or something that held them off. But let's say it was the nerve damage thing. Or let's say it was something mental or something that held them off.

But let's say it was the nerve damage thing. And then they do the trade with Philly. That's technically legal. Because Fultz isn't on their team. It's just a pick. It still feels like slightly unethical though. I don't think that he had nerve damage before the draft. That's my take.

Personally. I don't think that whatever. Do you think he has nerve damage Personally. I don't think that whatever... Do you think he has nerve damage now? I don't think either of us know. I would hope so because that would be easier to come back from. I mean, they're saying that there's so many conflicting tweets

and reports out right now, but they're saying that he could be back with the team in a matter of weeks. And that's not really what we know about TOS based on... I mean, Bauman just wrote a piece for the site about Matt Harvey having a similar injury now obviously Matt Harvey's using his arm in a completely different way than Markel Fultz is using his arms but this is not like uh to fix

this with surgery at least would be a pretty invasive pretty difficult surgery yeah um if they're just saying and they they've got some doctor coming who worked with the Lakers and worked with Kobe and has worked with Elton Brand in the past, who's apparently going to start working with Markel. This is like another doctor. I just don't know who's running Markel Fultz's career. You know what I mean? Is it the Sixers or is it his agent?

Is he on the team in a year? No. I don't, I don't, I think I'm 75-25 that he never plays for the Sixers again. 75% chance that he doesn't? Yeah.

Wow. Really? Yeah. Because they can just kick this can down the road. More, more physical therapy. We've decided it's Markell's best interest to just work on his health

for the rest of the season. When you torture yourself with the what-ifs of the false draft, because that's what I would do because I love torturing, going backwards and torturing myself with sports things. Is it just taking Tatum third? Or is there a world where you even go back further to five and you take De'Aaron Fox

and you get something else from the Kings? Yeah, I'm not a good draft guy because my draft tastes are usually just like draft a guy from Kentucky. They're exotic. Yeah. No, they're just draft a Kentucky guy. Yeah.

De'Aaron Fox certainly seemed, like I loved De'Aaron Fox. Who would have been the most fun person to put on that team from that draft? I would say Tatum. With the team that they have now with Butler? Just like, yeah. I mean, I guess, yeah. Fox. I would say Tatum. With the team that they have now with Butler? Just like, yeah. I mean, I guess, yeah.

Fox. Fox would have been. And also everything everybody says about the way Fox plays and the way Fox is around the team and how he is like a culture changer and how he is like born leader and like wants to win and is like an absolute bulldog.

Like I just would love to have Fox. It's funny because the Fultz thing is so devastating and such like a bad story. But yet with Philly, the fact that Embiid is basically Orlando Shaq and is playing every game. And I remember like a year ago, remember I did that podcast with Danny and I'm like,

would you bet your life he'll play 65 games? And Danny's like, yes, I would. I would bet my life he'll never do it. So maybe that's, now he plays every game maybe that makes this podcast sound ridiculous

because maybe we should just be patient because there are people who are just like Embiid's never going to play more than like 35 games a season that it's always going to be an ankle

it seemed impossible a foot or a back or whatever it's going to be so maybe maybe like you know Embiid is now playing like 38 minutes a game

he's playing every game he plays he's playing too much he's playing too much yeah he is he He's playing every game. He's playing too much. Yeah, he is. He probably is playing too much, but he's playing with like a particular ferocity. Yes. And it's amazing. I certainly had given up this version of him.

I remember seeing him in the gym that time and writing about it after for Grantland. Just being like, that guy has to be the first pick. Yeah. But never thinking he would even get back to that athletically game after game. And he's awesome. So the reality is you threw away four seasons.

You ended up with two guys for sure. And those two guys, one is probably one of the best six assets in the league. And the other one's probably one of the best 12 assets of the league. Yeah. And Jimmy Butler. And Jimmy Butler. I don't know how long he's going to... It's weird.

People keep talking about, oh, that contract. That next contract's going to be a nightmare. It's like, he's 30. Who cares? You got to pay him. You got to pay him. But I think everybody is looking around at what's happening with the Wizards and how they can't get out from wall.

They're looking at Chris Paul and how he seems to be on the backside of his career now, the downside of his career. Chris Paul, he was 14 seasons in at that point. Do you think that Jimmy Butler's eight seasons with Tibbs are essentially 14 real seasons? I don't know. He didn't play that many. He was only

like three years where he played like a crazy amount of minutes. I guess you're right. I looked up his total minutes. I was shocked by how small it was. Jimmy Butler has done quite a bit in the last few weeks to just make himself a Philly fucking legend.

So, you're not going to hear me crying about us signing Jimmy Butler. He's really everything you wanted from your third guy with Philly, right? Huge balls.

He'll take big shots at the end of games. Yeah. He can guard anybody. He's got real swagger and he's the kind of guy Philly fans would just like yes

and I think that he brings an edge to that team that and you know you're seeing Joel be like an assassin over the course of the last you know like

three four weeks and he's got that in him but I think Jimmy brings that out of those guys what's weird is the four that you have because I think even though statistically Redick hasn't had his best year,

I actually think he has had his best year because. Well, also mentality rise. JJ's right there with those guys. Well, yeah. But I mean, there's other years where he's shot better. But I think he's being used and relied on in a much more significant way than I can ever remember at any point in his career. And I don't know whether the usage rate

stat backed that up, but it was easier on the Clippers. He's either coming around screens and taking threes or wide open threes or cuts to the basket. They actually need him for possessions this year. But you look at those four, even if the

best possible version of faults, I'm not sure that fits in with those four. You know? Well, that's when you start getting into like, yeah, I know, I know. I mean, we were having this conversation on group chat the other day about like whether or not

we're starting to see a little bit of an unraveling of this big three mentality or having like a really top heavy team. It's because the Warriors kind of screwed that up for people. I think they were like, well, you just get this model of team together and it doesn't matter who you surround them with but they're like pretty much a once in a generation collection of talent if not more than that

whereas like I'm watching Toronto this year and I'm just like you just Kawhi can sit out the second night of back-to-backs every for the whole season and they've just got like such like contributors from all over the the court from all over the court, from all over the draft, from all over ways of getting guys from Siakam and Van Vliet. And it just seems like that's the, that's the model is to be able to go 10 deep during the regular season and really like try a bunch of different things.

Sit dudes out. I think that was Stevens's mistake. The Celtics didn't really fall into place until he started smart and Jalen Brown got hurt. Yeah. And when Jalen got hurt, the minutes kind of fell in the way it was. And I think what Toronto, when they, Papa's the guy who invented this, but you pull a guy out of the lineup and then these other guys have to play more minutes and then everybody's kind of weirdly happy.

Yeah. You know, it's like- Well, everybody's happy when you win. You know what I mean? Well, true. I think that the Jimmy Butler, like they're winning games. Like Jimmy's happy. Jimmy's saying all the right things.

It's like if you have a kid who plays soccer and there's a lot of bench players, and then three kids don't show up and everybody just has to play the whole game. The kids are super happy after. Like, hey, I played the whole game. And I wonder if maybe that's this new way to manage the regular season.

Do you think that they try to trade Fultz this season or is he like next like they would have to attach something to Fultz to get anything at this point I still feel like if I'm

the Bulls or the Suns a team that's not going anywhere I would try to grab them and you know there's mixed results

with the pedigree of this stuff but then you look at Moudier and Vonley it's like you gotta bet on the pedigree this guy stuff. But then you look at Moudier and Vonley, it's like you got to bet on the pedigree. This guy was considered the number one draft prospect 18 months ago.

I would trade for him. And I think at some point he's going to realize maybe he needs some savvier people around him. Yeah. Because everything the way his life's been handled the last six months has been really awful. Look, Embiid's an MVP candidate. Ben Simmons is awesome.

Butler Trey has been fantastic for both sides. For both teams. Did you watch the Rockets game? I did. Rocco has finally found his calling. When Rocco ripped the ball out of Capella's hands, I was like, man, they really got one here. He's like, between him and Taj Gibson

and the Rose comeback, it's like the perfect tips. Also, I haven got one here. He's like, between him and Taj Gibson and the Rose comeback, it's like the perfect tip. Also, I haven't watched every minute of Minnesota basketball, but you can tell he makes Wiggins and Towns' defensive liabilities a little bit less glaring. The Wiggins thing. Danny Chow wrote about Wiggins today for us. I've never seen anything like it.

I mean, two years ago, he played 3,000 minutes and he averaged like 23 a game. And whether you loved his game or not, like at least seemed like it was headed somewhere. Now he seems like a guy who's on his way out of the league. I mean, he's 23. It's astonishing. He was like one of the best players on the court last night

in a game against James Harden though. I know. Yeah. It's so up and down. I think that was the only time it's been up. Yeah, I guess you're right. But like, the kind of decline he's had

from age 21 to age 23, if you're just going from a basketball reference standpoint, it's like, that's the arc of somebody who's going to be in China in three years. But obviously not

because he's making $40 million a year. Yeah. All right. Chris Ryan. Always a pleasure. All right. Thanks to zip recruiter.com slash BS. Please go there.

It's a great place. It's a happy place. Thanks to HBO's momentum generation. New documentary coming December 11th. If you don't like it, I will give you your money back for this podcast, which was free. I don't care. It's an awesome documentary.

You will like it. Also, watch it with your wife and your kids or your girlfriend or whoever. Kyle, did you see it? No, I'm waiting. You'll like it. Thanks to FanDuel. If you're not a fantasy expert, FanDuel is the place to play at FanDuel. You get the excitement of researching

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Going up at some point late tonight after Kyle's pulling an all-nighter tonight. And then the rewatchables on Thursday. The Firm, Chris Ryan's Wilford Brimley impression is one for the ages. It's really great. I recommend it just for that. We will see you on Thursday with one more episode of the BS Podcast. I don't have feelings with them. On the wayside On the first I never

said I don't have to ever say