The Bill Simmons Podcast - Luka’s Ascendance and a Mavs-Celtics Finals Is Brewing With Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: May 27, 2024

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss the Mavericks' 3-0 series lead over the Timberwolves, the mastery of Luka Doncic, the revival of Kyrie Irving (1:28), struggles for KAT and Anthony Edwards (23:50), a history of the "best player alive" belt (46:37), the Celtics-Pacers series, Jayson Tatum debates, Finals speculation, and more (1:06:08). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I hope you listen to Prestige TV podcast over the weekend. I did a podcast with Julia Lipman because we have no prestige shows to talk about. So we talked about the 30th anniversary of the best two-parter in the history of Beverly Hills 90210. Certainly not a prestigious episode, but we made a lot of jokes. We had a lot of fun. So go check that out on the Prestige TV podcast. Coming up on this podcast, Ryan Rosillo and I are going to talk about a round three of the NBA

playoffs that went sideways over the weekend. And now starting maybe even by Tuesday night, we're not going to have any more basketball heading into the second half of the week. Yikes. What happened? How did we get here? It's all next. First, our friends from Pro Gym. All right, taping this a little before 8 o'clock Pacific time. Just watched Dallas beat Minnesota.

They're up 3-0. The Celtics are also up 3-0. I think it looks like we're going to have a Celtics-Mavs finals, barring one of the great comebacks in the history of professional sports. Where do you want to start, Russello? We have to start with Dallas because this is the most impressive thing I think that has happened

even though Minnesota taking out Denver. You're like, they're really going to go in there and beat Denver at their place in game seven. And then they do that. And yet here we have two teams that I do think are close, but just the mastery of Luka. And we already know what's about to happen.

I know we're going to talk about it under the pod today, but there's a reason why over the course of these years where I'm like, if you just want the ball in somebody's hands in the biggest moment, I don't know why you pick anybody other than Luka. And it's not just the made three against Gobert in game two. It feels like it's impossible when he's cooking. And he just dropped and emptied the entire toolbox

on this team again. There's all these different plays. There's a bunch of different reasons this series is 3-0. But Luke is the best player that's still alive. We knew that when we ranked him coming out of it.

And I just think it has to be a lot of praise for Dallas to start this because this is so incredible. Well, now it's starting to feel like the best player alive championship belt is in play. Because if Luka keeps going here

and then beats Boston in the finals, Jokic is like, he just found a place for it in his living room, right? Like right above the TV. He just cleared a cabinet out. He just put it in there and then he's like, wait, what? I'm losing this? If Luka pulls this off,

he's going to be the best player in the league. And it's crazy because I'm the same person who said a couple months ago, I thought the distance between Jokic and everybody else was as significant as this is Justin Termini's point first, but as significant as anybody since LeBron in 2013. But you look at Dallas here, 16-4 to end the season,

11-4 in the playoffs, getting better as the playoffs go along. And it's now hitting the point where you almost feel like they're like the freaking Yankees in the late 90s, where it's like, if this is a close game in the eighth inning, you're probably going to lose. This is how it's going to play out. Yeah, let's do the belt thing can we hold off on that yeah we'll put it later i just feel like there's been a lot of belt transfers in a very short amount of time and that's a topic in itself but the closer argument's perfect because you know this is kind of by design when everything's

supposed to work out it's like okay can you have two people that can get their own shots in these impossible moments at the end of playoff games when everything else is falling apart? Do you have two players that can get you good looks? And I would have never wanted to be in the Kyrie business. I don't think anybody pushing back at the time was wrong, even though that's kind of the way it plays out. But even tonight, there was a play where, you know, they were debating on the broadcast, like what to do with Luka, need more doubles, more of the debate carryover at the end of game two against Gobert. And, you know, it just sounds better to be like,

hey, double, he's got to double more. You got to keep two with him. And I'm not saying that you shouldn't be looking to just cheat off of somebody else. But it's not like Luka isn't going to figure that part of it out either. He brought up Gafford for a screen, and I was waiting to see are two going to stay with Luka off of the Gafford thing because Gafford instead of Lively is a downgrade for Dallas because he's not the passer that Lively is, which is one of the most remarkable things about how this team

is built, that this kid's a rookie and he's making like the right reads and big, big, you know, stakes playoff games. So as the screen is about to be set with Gafford, Luca knows exactly what he's going to do. He swings at the Kyrie who kicks the PJ Washington in the corner and PJ hits like one of the biggest shots of the game, that three. And it looked like it was 104, 104 when that happened,

it looked like it wasn't really that big of a deal. And in reality, Luca was like, Oh, you think you're going to like trick me? Yeah. So he doesn't even have to you know he's kind of in that gravity conversation of the curry's and the yokich where even if you think he's not really impacting anything he was 35 feet away from the hoop and that attempt to defend him which he already could tell what they were going to try to do,

was like, you guys are absolutely wasting your time. Because the ball's not even going to be here by the time you guys come up. And then you're going to be spread out behind. We talked about this in the past. I agree with everything you just said. The pick your poison kind of last level of basketball. Because Jokic was like this too, where the defense just kind of has to decide at some point, all right, what are we good with

because we're going to be giving up something. And the part of what I don't understand about what Minnesota's been doing this series is I would just want all the role players to decide the games. I'm fine with Derek Jones and P.J. Washington and whoever. That's what I want with it. Like when Jaden Hardy was in there for a lot of spots, just let those guys knock yourself out, guys, because that's what they're doing on the other want with it. Like when Jaden Hardy was in there for a lot of spots, just let those guys knock yourself out guys.

Cause that's what they're doing on the other end with Edwards. They want all the, all the side guys to decide the game for Minnesota on the Dallas side, Luca and Kyrie. Like, you know, if, if you're going to stay home at these other dudes and just let those dudes

go one-on-one, which they've done over and over again in crunch time in these three games, it just feels like you have no chance, especially the Luca part. I don't know why Gobert came back in this game or solo, and we'll have the whole Gobert conversation later, but I think the best lineup they had for whatever they're trying to do, the best they looked was when Nas Reed was out there and there was a Nas Reed, Anderson Anthony Edwards McDaniels I forget who the fifth was but um that when they were able to move and switch that felt like the closest they were to solve in Dallas otherwise I don't know what you'd do the problem is is I was with you

I was going okay cool they're going to try something else because even when Dallas went small and then they brought Gafford back in and then Powell gets minutes like his livelihood doesn't come back from the game. And that was a brutal need of the back of his head. So you wonder what's going to happen for him the rest of the way. But Minnesota is still big when they're small. So you're going, all right, maybe they can survive here. But the thing is, Bill, they didn't do anything with it.

They didn't do anything with it. It was two Nas Reed attacks on Luca, which were fine. Okay, he got him once, and then the other one was the foul. And then there was a weird Kyle Anderson late shot clock thing where that was happening a bunch. So when you looked at Rudy, when he came back in from not being in the beginning, they were actually minus two through all of it. And there's this big Rudy thing where, you know,

there's a lot of people that I respect that are really smart and they'll throw this plus minus stuff that we've seen in front of you. It's like he's actually had the best differential of any player on the Timberwolves. And I'll just go, I don't know, man. I don't know. I go, I'm not really sure that that's necessarily what I see. This isn't a Rudy problem game, by the way.

So let me probably just stop myself there because I was excited about that, as you were, but Minnesota had 102 points at 554 left to go in the fourth quarter. All right? Yeah. They basically scored two points to close against a 13-1 run, and then the last two points were the Edwards layup. And the shots were awful.

They were all end of the shot clock, like just stilted toilet bowl offense. So there were some minutes in there where I'm thinking, okay, cool, let's see an attack. There should be space. They're going to space the floor. They're going to switch. I mean, they haven't really stopped this Dallas closing group yet anyway,

so let's try something else. And then Kyrie got right into the paint a couple times. So I think Finch was looking at it going, all right, Luka's getting deeper. Kyrie won a drive. So they brought Rudy back in. Yeah, we need a shot blocker. But the problem is they didn't get Luka into switches. They didn't bring Ant up.

Maybe they're worried if McDaniels is setting the switch, then they'll just ignore him and then Tuesday with Ant. There's a conversation there about how much do you set screens for Ant because you're bringing more traffic his way. But when they went small, they actually didn't do any of the things that I was excited about them potentially doing, is the point I'm trying to make. I wonder why Denver couldn't unlock Minnesota the way Dallas has.

And I, I wonder if, uh, rim protection. Well, but also the, you know, they,

they went through it last year. They're playing for eight and a half months, however long it was. Then this year they got the big bullseye and, you know, they talked about how they ran out of gas. Their role guys kind of disappeared. But when you watch what Dallas has been able to do in Minnesota

and put their big guys in space, I wonder why Denver didn't do that more. I don't really know the answer. I'm sure they're watching this series going, damn. On the other hand, Luka and Kyrie had 66 tonight. And it felt like anytime they needed a big basket, they were getting it somehow. like the level of shot making, especially in the fourth quarter was ridiculous where it felt like Minnesota

played almost perfect defense and, and Dallas would still hit a shot. There's a fun Luca Gobert thing. I was actually looking up over the weekend after game two, cause I was wondering like, it really seems like Luca hates Gobert. What's this about? And I was like deep diving it going like Luca hates Gobert. What's this about? And I was deep diving it,

going through YouTube and stuff. My theory, and I hope somebody asked Luca this, I think it dates back to the 2020 Olympics. Slovenia lost to France by one point. And it was, remember the game? Batum had the block. He blocked somebody at the rim,

right at the buzzer, and France won by one. And in that game, Luca had Gobert block. He blocked somebody at the rim, right at the buzzer and France one by one. And in that game, Luka had Gobert and a switch for a second and Batum came over and he got rid of it. And the guy he got rid of it to went to the basket and got blocked. And I wonder if ever since then, Luka's like, I hate this guy. I'm just going to, but there's been other stuff. Like he's punched him a couple of times during games, like little sneaky Gobert punches that it seems like it's not a punch, but it is a little elbows. They've gone at it a couple of times games, like little sneaky Gobert punches that it seems like it's not a punch, but it is. Little elbows. They've gone at it a couple times, but

there really seems to be a hop in his step for Luka going against Gobert, which I've enjoyed. I like the animosity in this series. I think it's been fun. And same thing with Edwards where he hit that point in the third quarter. He was like, fuck this. I'm not going down this way. And just took over the game for like four minutes,

but couldn't keep it going. No, because they had gotten dallas into the bonus like eight and a half minutes nine minutes to go and if you look at the free throws in that quarter alone like the game had slowed down ant has this great stretch he has the dunk he has the turnaround he has the bank and you're like okay maybe he's actually going to do this because this is this is what he's saddled with the hope of like hey if you're going to be one of these guys, like you have to be better than you've been in this series. And I have a ton on Ant that's incredibly disappointing. There's all these big moments where you're like, you just have to be better than this. And I don't know that there's necessarily a reason we could apply, you know, when somebody is middle age and they end up playing below the standards, we never say, oh, he's middle aged.

So I don't know if it's just youth. It's kind of the way basketball works and sports works. But the Luka part of it, I mean, he kind of gets into it with everybody. It's like that Clippers team with Doc and Chris Paul and Blake and DeAndre and Austin Rivers was on the team. They argued. They got into it with everybody. I remember one night we were trying to rank.

We were like, okay, how many teams have they had a thing with? And I think Luka is almost the individual version of that Clippers team. It's a good call. He's going to go over great in Boston. I can't wait for a finals with him arguing a 45 calls. He's so great though, man. I, that's the thing. And obviously he's been doing this forever, but to watch him do it on the biggest stage where the pace that he plays at when he gets the half step on somebody and then just keeps the guy on him, almost like a hockey player.

And once he has you on your hip, you kind of don't have an option because he'll just stop suddenly and then you're crashing into him, right? You can't reach around because they'll call a foul. He's too big to get around. And there's just, he'll just stop suddenly and then you're crashing into him, right? You can't reach around because they'll call a foul. He's too big to get around.

And then he's got that little eight-foot floater. He can stop. He can just go to the basket. He can then through the alley-oop. And once he gets a step, watching him just use and abuse McDaniels, I thought was pretty interesting. He just got too much size for him.

You know who the type of player to guard Luka is, Rossello? I do feel like it's a little Nas Reed-ish. And I don't know why they haven't gone to that more. Because I think the Celtics, Tatum and Brown, they're actually in pretty good shape. They're not going to stop Luka, but they have the type of tall athletes that at least you're going to make them work, get to his spots.

But I don't know why they didn't try Nas Reid on him more because Nas Reid was good on Jokic too. McDaniels is too small to me. Well, he's too, he's not stout enough. So I would agree there and he was always going to get a couple of dumb fouls. He had

the reach in that was silly and then he had another one where it looked like he was just mad, but it didn't,s. He had the reach-in that was silly, and then he had another one where it looked like he was just mad, but it didn't, I don't think, take away. I don't feel like he was playing defense as if he was in foul trouble because that's the thing with McDaniels. We can't fall in love with how aggressive he is on Booker and the stuff he was doing with Murray. And then, I mean, we can always find fouls with him and Cattery.

Like, what are you doing? But you kind of have to sign up for a lot of that if you're going to fall in love with the physicality and the challenging and the reaching and trying to get away with just slowing the other player down. But with Luka, it's an entirely different animal. The hockey player analogy is perfect. It's kind of like a tight end who ends up in the end zone with a corner on him where it's like, you may think you're defending me, but you're not. Like, I'm just, I'm too big for you. And the craziest thing is it's not about luca

turning the corner it's just about him playing with all of this pace where he's watching it live when i went to that clippers game like i knew what to expect because i'd seen it before but there'll be moments he's in the paint and everything stopped around him and nobody knows necessarily what to do and it almost feels like it's easier i remember nash would actually have an easier time making layups because everybody was freaked out about what he was going to do and it almost feels like it's easier i remember nash would actually have an easier time making layups because everybody was freaked out about what he was going to do the ball towards everybody else so you get that scoring part of it with luca and the size and the touch and then something legler talked about with me which i loved he's so great at the late kick out yeah

you'll think you'll think okay this drive is over he's putting it up okay like that lobby had left to right to gafford through all of those bodies he had another drive in the first half where he's like up on one leg the shot is about to happen and he just turns and gets it to the right corner i think it was a jones three um you know we look we knew how special it was i voted in the second mvp so you know just by default because knew how special it was. I voted him second MVP. So, you know, just by default because I thought it was so close with all those players that I started just kind of dividing it by like who do I actually think is the better player

of these players? And I only had one guy ahead of him. And there's a reason. I don't know. There's one guy that I can remember in the last five, six years who I felt like actually did a really good job on Luca. This is a deep pull. And somebody mentioned this to me recently.

I was like, Oh yeah, it was Ben Simmons. Ben Simmons, Ben Simmons did a good job on him. There's a couple of bad Luca box scores against Ben Simmons teams. And I think that's the type of guy. I think it's got to be like 6'9 and strong and athletic, which, of course, there's four or five guys like that in the league. Ironically, Tatum's one of them. And I wonder if Tatum is, when it's Boston-Dallas,

if that's going to be part of what Boston does. It's going to be Tatum and Jalen, but basically Tatum fourth quarter. But then you're putting on all these defensive miles on Tatum. You're risking foul trouble with Tatum. It's a slow balance. Yeah, it's asking a lot. Maybe to close a game. And then Jalen probably for the first three quarters.

But the great thing about this Jalen season is he's really accepted the defensive challenge. And I think he's been genuinely impactful on defense. And he's taken, there's been some of the better players in the league. Like there was that Zion game he had this season where he's just like, okay, I got, I'm going to take this guy. So they have two really good guys to throw at him, but then you, you bring the Kyrie piece in it. And that's another pretty solid spot for Boston where they have these two really, really excellent defensive guards that they can at least throw at him and make him make some shots. He'll still make them. It doesn't

really make, you know, I don't know if anyone's shutting down Kyrie when he's like this. The crazy thing about it, I don't feel like he's played at this level really for like six or seven years, like with the speed, the decision-making, the shot-making, combined with what he's doing defensively. Because the defense is where he really went sideways and really seemed like a liability, especially like that Brooklyn Celtics series, remember, two years ago. As that went on, it just felt like they started hunting him. And that's one of the things, I know he's been putting up points,

but I've been really impressed by the all-around stuff with him. It's an incredible redemption story. Somebody I gave up on as a basketball star. I'm not saying like that. There's nothing that compares. Go ahead. No, I'm just like other people ran. I'm not saying because I gave up on him that matters,

but I just didn't think we would see a two-way performance like this from him at this stage of his career and kind of giving up on it. It might matter to him to hear you say that. Funny, Kyrie at a press conference, hey, you know, I heard Bill Simmons, he's reconsidered some of his thoughts. I just want to say that means a lot. He had two plays.

The shot he hit left-handed going right to left and Ant actually gave it a decent contest. And it was off his left hand. And my favorite thing about the Kyrie offensive explosion, because I even think against Oklahoma City, it was actually a little too passive in that series for long stretches because I would look at the stuff he was turning down, which we've already covered. But then there was a moment where it was like, okay, wait. They're really gearing up. Minnesota, I felt like, had these two peak output defensive stretches. One was after the ant dunk, and there was another one there in the fourth quarter where they were trying.

I mean, they were trying their hardest. And then for Luka to have the luxury just to throw it to Kyrie, and he turned the corner, that made it 111-105. And at that point, Minnesota had gone over four minutes without a field goal so it's it's absurd that you have somebody like luca but you know this is the whole part about dallas is like we're saying this now how come we didn't believe a little bit earlier i didn't realize that jayden hardy would come in and give him great minutes you know we're talking about what do you give up

and i would agree with you i'd probably want to shrink the paint and or collapse the paint whatever you want to say and leave the corners and then oklahoma city's saying yeah yeah that's what we tried to do and then pj washington turned into an all-star and then derrick jones had his massive game so all of this has worked and the lively gaffer part of it and i mean exum who was actually like a nice little piece for them, hasn't even been needed. And Hardaway's been like nothing, even though he's back and healthy. It's just incredible how much this team has come together. Yeah.

I mean, he played the other night, but you don't even notice him out there. I don't think he got out there today. Yeah, the other thing. Go ahead. Well, just you mentioned the Derek Jones thing. Him and Washington were five for seven from three in the first half, right? These are guys that are in the low 30s usually

as three-point shooters. And those guys have come through and that's part of playoff basketball, right? You just, certain guys rise to the occasion, the crowd, the spotlight, the energy, and they targeted those dudes and those guys have shown up. I watched Eric Jones for years.

I don't know how many teams he was on that really stood out. It was always like, oh yeah, he seems like a fairly interesting defensive guy, but wasn't somebody that I thought would be hitting huge shots in a conference finals. No, no. I mean, the thing is,

because of the Luka part of it and because of having to make sure you're paying attention to what side Kyrie is on, there's just a lot of open shots. To ask a defense to go, hey, make sure we're switching or make sure we're blitzing. I thought Minnesota did a better job extending the pressure out to them, but Luka just figures it out. And if Kyrie's coming off of that, if two are on the ball and Kyrie's able to get the ball four on three with his speed, so it's come together, man. It really has. And I was wrong that I thought Minnesota and Denver was the NBA Finals because I didn't know that Dallas

was going to take it to this level. I mean, I know these games are all close and there's other stuff that I want to talk about, but I'm kind of in awe of what I've seen this team do, especially to close threes. You figure just the law of averages, they have a clunker to close in one of the three against Minnesota's defense, and it hasn't happened.

Yeah, you figure game one, I think Minnesota's up with two minutes left. Game two, they're up up with two minutes left. Game two, they're up five with 90 seconds left. And over and over again, Dallas defense just stepped up and then Dallas would make shots. And it got to the point where in game three, like I said earlier, you just felt like if that was going to be the situation again,

Minnesota was screwed. This is something that has evolved. I feel like Dallas figured themselves as a team during that Clipper series. And now looking back at that OKC series, because I thought OKC was right there that whole series. And as I said last week, I thought that came down to a couple rebounds and a couple shots.

But now I kind of respect the OKC team even more because they were throwing haymakers and Jalen Williams wasn't even playing that well. And they stayed in that series and it was the sixth gamer um I mean that's true because I mean think about it PJ's not fouled in the corner who knows OKC wins game six maybe Jalen Williams at home they've got game seven at home and and we're going oh man Dallas is going to be sneaky interesting team next year you know but instead they're up 3-0 on a team I figured after the Denver series is the best team remaining in the NBA. Let's, uh, we'll take a break and we'll talk about the Minnesota side of things.

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Get out. It was a new thing. Can't remember hearing that before. And I think it was Shaq who said he'd like to see Anthony Edwards and Carl Anthony Towns step up. I would like to see it. I agree with him. Anthony Edwards kind of stepped up.

Towns stepped backwards and down. He stumbled down. What's the opposite of a step up? A stumble down? It got to the point I was teasing House at halftime that he was going to be in the Wizards next year. House didn't like it. There was some unprintable text that returned.

Towns was just awful. Just awful. Ant, who for two and a half games just looked like his superpowers had been, the plug had been unpolled then all of a sudden he found the superpowers again but it was a little too little too late

what are you seeing? well the series could be summarized with this I mean coming out of the game one and two you had here are the differentials Ant and Cat were 21 of 69 Luca and Kyrie were 41 of 88 you had the differentials. Ant and Cat were 21-69.

Luca and Kyrie were 41-88. So that's 20 more makes from the four best guys on the Dallas side. You're going to lose. When I see that kind of thing, I'm like, I'm shocked. They were in both of those games and threw them away. Today it was six more makes for that side of it, so it actually somehow improved. Let's just do the cap part first because it's easier.

He's not that good. He's not that good. We know he can stretch the floor a little bit. This best shooting big man thing is so fucking stupid. He takes four a game. His drives against lively or like golfing with somebody who's never golfed before and you're like where the fuck are you aiming you're like oh right over there like the flag you're like that's the american flag

that's at the clubhouse the flag is over is over there uh he he actually got a little bit better on the drives today when lively went out but i went back and looked at every shot attempt he had. And believe it or not, I thought it was going to be worse going into it. There's more good shot attempts than bad shot attempts. He was handed a lot of shot clock grenades in the first two games. But the drives themselves are pointless. They're just pointless. And you can see what he's doing.

He's like, might as well drive. And then when everybody went small and he was still in, maybe Gaffer was back at that point, he couldn't post Kyrie. And it led to a turnover he lost his positioning against kairi so he is a huge part of the problem but the biggest problem is that ant isn't even close so i expect that from cat i don't expect ant to have this these i should say these many bad moments which we can go to here like what do you think is when you see Ant right

now like where are you with it I'm going to sound like I'm making excuses for him like I'm related to him and I don't mean to sound that way I think the playoffs are really hard I've been on a lot of texts because people know that I like Edwards and just like what's happening your guy get a lot of the because people know that I like Edwards and just like, what's happening to your guy?

You get a lot of that. The playoffs are hard. He's 22 years old. It's the third round of just a whole level of basketball and intensity and energy. And the only reason I mentioned this is because I watched it happen to Tatum two years ago. And I'm watching Tatum in these playoffs two years later versus what was happening to him as the third and fourth round of 2022 went on. And it's weird. The playoffs for young guys, they kind of

break your brain if you're not ready for it, if you haven't been through it, if you don't understand it. The only way I can compare it, and again, I know it sounds like I'm making excuses for Ant. I'm not. The only way I can explain it is it's like a boxing match when you see this guy who's never been, like in the old days when we had the 15-round fights and it was the guy, it was the first time, it was like, oh man, 15-round title fight. Man, these extra three rounds are awful. I can't believe this last nine minutes.

I never knew it was like this. You're just not conditioned for it yet. And that's what I see with him. He was so tired and so out of it in game one. In game two, it felt the same way. He just didn't have the same energy. So all the stuff they did for him today where they're trying to put him, hide him on non-scores,

they're having other people bring the ball up. It seemed like a whole bunch of things to just try to have him have energy in the second half. So it sounds like an excuse, but I just think there's a reason 22 and under guys have not won four straight playoff rounds. That it's that unusual. It's basically Magic Johnson. And Magic Johnson was not somebody who had the ball all the time. He was on a team with Kareem, who's the best player in the world. So, you know, two years from now, is he going to look like,

is he going to get to round three and just look like he has no power left in his battery? I don't think so. I agree with a lot of what you said, because it's usually the way it goes, which is what made it so exciting with him. And the Denver series, you're like, wait, is this really going to happen? Like when I was walking around getting ready for that game seven, I was like, is he really going to do this?

Now granted, he went six to 24, so they didn't win because of him. But to come back against Denver down 20, like all right, we've already covered it. Well, his defense was incredible in that game though. Right, but still, you've got to be better than six to 24. He hasn't been impacting this series defensively like he impacted that game seven. No, but they're tougher matchups too. So I think the the point it isn't really making excuses i think that was the excitement about him to be like are we actually

going to see a guy fourth year in 22 years old take this kind of jump and like maybe win a title like what is this almost like a rookie quarterback like wow this guy's just gonna rip through the playoffs guys 22 and i know i'm guilty of thinking about it, but even when I would get excited about it, going like, I think he can do it, I'd go, wait, you've been watching this league a long time. This isn't really what's supposed to happen. And so game one, him being tired,

if you're 22, it's just not really much of an excuse. There's days off. I think of the combination of the Kyrie part, but also he played so much point guard in game one. Like I was going back and looking at it. I was like, all right, so he's bringing the ball up the entire time because they're worried about Conley's injury

and he had left the game today and then came back. He's actually been pretty steady for him. And then he was in game one guarding Kyrie for a lot of that game too. Like it was, what they asked him to do in game one was, was, I think stupid. So then you look at the game one was was uh right right i think stupid so then you look at the game one drives because i was looking at every one of his his shot attempts he had one like touch in the paint

the entire second half of game one so you feel a little bit better about game two because i thought we saw some more aggressiveness but then the turnover at the end is inexcusable. You can't do it. And I know people are on Finch's case for not calling a timeout to get Conley back in the game, and that's a fair criticism. I'm not saying it's wrong, but you also don't expect Ant to throw it out of bounds. The spacing on that play was terrible.

Gobert has Gafford pinned at the rim. I think Nas and Kyle are to the left side, and they're actually on top of each other in the corner, like they're getting ready to break out of an inbounds play. But then Ant still throws it out of bounds. And then tonight, the drives were better, but he's been missing layups like crazy. He missed four straight layups that were good looks in game two.

He had the missed layup when they were small, and he got the ball back, and he waited. They had a timeout, and it's like, dude, what do you think is going to happen? This is closing time, a game three of the playoffs. You've got to get rid of the basketball or dribble out of there, and he lets himself get tied up, and even though he won the game, they lost the possession. Yeah, he completely froze.

So those moments are despite his greatness and what he was doing in the third quarter. It's unfortunate because I thought like with his personality, his attitude, and he's just, you know, this is not the guy staring down Kevin Durant saying you're done and I'm next. This is a guy that looks really uncomfortable in some big spots. And it's disappointing for how great I think he is, but it doesn't mean anything. It also means like, okay, he's actually likely to go through the normal course of events for the great players in the league. Because a lot of these guys

are already on vacation, post on Instagram, and he's playing in the Western Conference Finals, but he hasn't been good. It still sounds like we're making excuses for him. I don't care. Look, if he sucks like this for three playoff, like two more playoff seasons. All right,

sign me up. I'll say I was wrong. Right. But there's also an incredible joy with this because of the Jordan comps, which no one like no one's saying was actually saying, I think this guy's going to be better than Jordan. It's just that he looked like him. Well,

I think what was so fun about the first series and a half was all the history we had with somebody at that age trying to do what he was trying to do said, this shouldn't happen. It's impossible. And then he kept making it seem like it was possible, which was what was so freaking exciting about it. And guess what? It's really hard. You're 22 years old, but I'm telling you, we, we watched this with Tatum and, and I And Edwards, maybe the ceiling for him as a player might be a whiff higher than Tatum

just because of, you know, as good as I think Tatum is. The ceiling for Edwards is, don't you think, like maybe a smidge higher as a star? But Tatum went through all of this in 2022 is my point. I'm not going to let these, by the way, I'm not going to let these four games make me go, oh, maybe this guy isn't going to be that good. I'm not there yet. But the bigger issue is Towns is in his

late 20s and they needed him in game two and they needed him tonight and he sucked the whole series. And it's gotten to the point that when he drives to the basket, it looks like he's wearing the whole series. And it's gotten to the point that when he drives to the basket, it looks like he's wearing somebody else's sneakers. It's like, did Towns bring his sneakers? No, he's wearing some kid from the first row.

He's a size 14. He's never worn these sneakers before. He just looks clumsy. He's missing wide open shots. I don't feel like his shots are going to go in. And you think about how he played those first three quarters of the Denver game seven, where it was like, it felt like there was some sort of breakthrough for him. And now we've gone backwards to the point that, you know, we're probably going to be making up town's trades in a couple of weeks. Cause the, the,

the salary cap for them is outrageous, you know? And I don't know if it's sustainable to keep this team together and just be 75 million over the cap. And if you think you can't keep Towns, Nasrid, and Gobert going forward for the next few years on a small market team, you got to figure out something. But the bigger question to me is, I just think this is who he is. I don't know if there's a level up for him. And this is a reason we've spent so much time talking about him being like, what is this guy? Is he good? Is he not

good? Is he the best shooting big guy in the league or is he somebody that just you know, against when he's playing worse teams or lesser opponents, he looks great. But if you keep upping the stakes, he can't he can't kind of hang on as the stakes keep going up because he was a liability

in that. He got benched in game two. And he got benched in game two. Who are the Towns fans? Who's my favorite player is Carl Anthony Towns? They need him on that. They ran it a couple times tonight when he sets the screen for Edwards and it's a little pick and pop. And it's like, in theory, that play should be unstoppable. But for whatever reason Dallas there's

it's not. And by the way because they already have Nas and we saw what they were without Kat like there was a fear. Okay maybe there just won't be enough offense. I mean the irony of this Minnesota thing in the closing moments of these last three games is that it felt like this is a real problem for them

during the regular season. We were like, you know, it'll be weird, though. What's a clutch offense going to look like? And then if you look at the clutch playoff stats, their offensive numbers were actually pretty good. The shooting numbers were pretty good. They just weren't in a lot of minutes. And I'd imagine those stats

are going to be dragged down again tonight. I mean, they were brutal. I mean, they had like two points from like 554. In the first two games, yeah, the last three minutes, they just turn over, miss shot, turn over, turn over. It just was bad.

And Dallas has a good defense. What's interesting about Dallas, Luka's one of those guys that in your head, you feel like he's a bad defender, but he's not. And his hands are around, he's tipping stuff. Like, I think he had five steals tonight, you know? And you wonder, like at one point Reggie Miller was asking why they didn't attack Luke. And it's like, I, I feel like they are trying to attack Luca. I feel like every team in the playoffs has tried to

figure out how to attack them, but he's smart. He knows where to go and basically what he can't do. And very rarely do you see him 35 feet from the basket one-on-one. And if he is, they'll send a second guy out. They don't want to expose him. That was one of the things Minnesota just wouldn't do with Gobert. But you think game one comes down to Luka makes a three, Nasrid misses a three, right? I felt like they should have left that. They should have left Minnesota. The series should have been tied 1-1. But instead, Dallas is up 2-0.

And then tonight, they should have won. But Dallas has been pulling these games out now for four weeks. And at some point, it's not an accident. At some point, every time you're in a close game, you win. It's not an accident. Now, game two was the one that I had the hardest time with because you had the Jaden play where he loses out of bounds because Kyrie fouls him.

And then it's like, hey, let's review it. That'll fix it. And instead, we just waste everybody's time to make sure the call is extra wrong. But Ant can't throw it out of bounds. And you brought up something in the very beginning we started talking about. I'm with you.

Dallas, because it's Ant only, and there's crowds everywhere, I do think when they had that small stretch there, I would have thought, hey, bring Luka up, just see what happens against Ant. But I still think they would have just kept two with Ant and then ignored McDaniels and been like, fine, do you want to shoot a three? Because we don't know what we're going to get out of you any single night. Conley's going to hit a couple floaters or a three. That's

fine. We don't trust Cat. Rudy can't catch. Rudy's only good with offense if it is already decided before the catch that it's going to be a dunk. If there's any moment where it's like, okay, I have the ball. Now I have to figure out what to do, it's a useless possession. Kyle Anderson is somebody they don't even really defend, even though I think there were times in the series that I've liked when Kyle played against Luka, and maybe it should have been a Nod, McDaniels, Kyle, Nod combo, but now I'm just making up shit.

I'm making up shit for a team that just beat Denver by playing their way. But I felt like they were searching for it a little bit. It'd be interesting to see if they search a little bit more for it. That's a really important thing you just said. I think teams, when they get this far in the playoffs and through the season and they get to round three, you become afraid to change who you are and what you were and how you got there. I even think Joe Maz was like this with Brissette, where it was clear that Brissette needed to

play in this Indiana series. But Joe Maz, for eight months, the team is basically 73 and 20 playing a certain lineup a certain way. And it's like, I don't want to play Brissette. I like playing my guys. Hauser's lost his confidence now, right? What do you do with that going forward? You can't just be like, here are my guys.

This is what's worked for us. Like you have to adapt and move as the series has gone along. And I think Minnesota was a little afraid to move away from Rudy and, and Towns is, don't you think Towns is one of those? Oh, he doesn't have it guys. I never felt, I feel like, you know, with Town towns in the first quarter and a half I don't know if it's coming back no proof just I test and by the way my small my

small lineup like like experiment theory Luca would probably be like awesome cool I'm just overpowering right now now it's so easy so like i i think your point though whether it's it's interpreted stubbornness i think the coaches are always worried about losing somebody that's been important to what they've been doing but minnesota bench towns all through the end of game two right well they're already lost yeah if you're not losing them at that point. Hey, on Luka, I went through this because the LNBA teams came out and I'm going to fight and fight and fight for them to put positions back next year because

I thought the awards were ridiculous this year. The four centers on the first team all defense, one of the dumbest things we've ever done. Let's try to at least make this look a little like basketball. So when I talk about LNBA, I'm comparing this year's voting to the history of the league.

Anyway, Luca has made first team five straight years. And I was like, hmm. And I went through it and I was trying to figure out best streaks for first team all NBA, which for some reason could not be Googled. StatMuse, get on this shit.

I was really banking on you. I do this myself. Um, Carl Malone and LeBron James made 11 straight first team OMS. Did you know this? I knew LeBron did. I didn't know Carl Malone did 11 straight first team OMS. It's like,

that's, that's incredible. That's more than a decade. That's you have a decade. You have a seven-year-old kid the first year of the streak who's graduated from college by the end of that. Bob Cousy and Bob Pettit made 10. Well, I must have got a lot of AP credits. Oscar, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, all nine in a row.

Duncan and Kobe, eight in a row. Shaq, Michael Jordan, Elgin Baylor, seven in a row. Giannis and Harden, six in a row. Duncan and Kobe eight in a row. Shaq, Michael Jordan, Elgin Baylor, seven in a row. Giannis and Harden, six in a row. And then Luca, KD, Dwight, and George Mike in five in a row. All of those guys are like the greatest players in the history of the league. And Luca's 24. And we were texting over the weekend about like, hmm, what does this mean if Luka just wins the finals? Where does he stack? But when you think of the all-NBA resume, the fact that he already got to a conference finals with a team that really, when you look back, it's kind of crazy that they beat Phoenix in a game seven, ended up losing to gold state in five. Just this career he's having and putting together. And he's still on the under 25 version of his 20s. And he's got the kind of game that I just feel like it's not, what's he going to lose athleticism?

I mean, the only thing you would worry about is, is he going to get bigger than he is? Well, it doesn't even seem like his size seems like weirdly an asset. You know, it's, it doesn't even seem like his size seems like weirdly an asset. It's almost a little like Jokic where he's big enough that it's more of a problem than a hindrance for him. And I think it's a problem for the other teams. So I think especially if we're going to have two sweeps

and we're not going to have the finals until a week from Thursday, this is just going to be a nine day long Luca conversation. I think over the Celtics, I think, I think Luca, where does he fit? Is he the best player in the league? Can he be one of the best players of all time? Like all of these questions are going to start getting asked now. You're right. It's going to happen. And it's already started to happen. And this is why I want to talk about the belt transfer. But before we any of that what i do like about this developing storyline with ant and luca is the luca part of this there's like all the things you wanted ant to be like i i did all these things already like i didn't get to the western Finals at 22, but I mean, he turned 25 in February, so he was only, what, a year off

from that? So he was six months, maybe, older I think, than Ant, being in the Western Conference Finals this year. So, with the speed with which we move in kind of re-ranking all these guys, which is, I think, I can become stubborn, or I can seem

stubborn, or I don't want to, because I think the mistakes are made is when you're constantly changing everything every like on the latest outcomes but you know when you look at luca the first year he's the leading scorer as a rookie they go 33 and 49 the second year they have that great series against the clippers you're like dude this guy's gonna be better right 31 10 and 9 and then the third year he loses in seven to the clippers and and his numbers are 36-8-10. Those series were so much fun. And then

the fourth year he's in the league, Western Conference Finals, they lose to Golden State. They didn't really have much of a chance. You look at his supporting cast for those teams, there's not much there. I mean, he's carrying that team, but they beat that awesome regular season Phoenix team the year after they had lost the Bucs to the Finals, which again, we've been over that game seven plenty of times in the pod.

Then last year's the year where things kind of fall apart. So I love the parallels of Luka getting through the West and maybe winning a title and being like, you guys were so ready to crown Ant, which again, I'm raising my hand saying I'm fully guilty of, but like, I just did all the things you were hoping Ant could do. Yeah. And like, there was never, there's never been a game like Ant's had three games now in a row in this series where I'm like, what the hell's going on? And you know And you can find a bad game in there with anybody,

but Luka's not going to have three games in a row in the playoffs. You're like, what's wrong with him? Yeah, Luka can still go seven for 20 in a playoff game and still seem like he's the best player and still be impactful in all these different ways. He'll still grab 11 rebounds and get nine assists. Do you see that stat they showed with the alley-oops? And this was like, I think in the second quarter where Dallas had 45 alley-oops in the playoffs and the next highest team had nine. It was the most.

They probably ended with 50. They said the most since what, 2001? Yeah. So I was trying to write it down and I was like, TNT, you have to like for the note takers, you're going to be slower with these graphics. That was a crazy start. Because when I saw it, I went, wait, what?

Like 45, and then it's like some Wilt number, and then here was second place. And his lobs, you know, I said Trey was probably the best, but Luka's size allows him to just stop. Jokic is good, too. I would say it's Jokic and Luka in the finals for the Laps. I think Trey's up there, man. Because he does a really great job of dribbling away. The Brooklyn Nets, Trey Young? Trey's awesome with Laps.

So he's a tier one lobber. How about that? Barclays on Trey Young? Well, the belt. You stopped me. No, no, no because you you did this before it was i did it i did all the work already give us the belt transfer well yokocheza now we'll go back till 1970 yokocheza now oh 1970 hold on no no it's gonna go to the bathroom you come back no it's gonna go fast the year after bill russell retired smart year it's going to go fast. The year after Bill Russell retired.

Smart year. It's a good year to do it. And the belt was vacant for a year after Bill Russell retired. We didn't know. There's a couple vacant years. I'm sorry. Then Kareem gets it in 71. So this is best player in the world. Best player in the world.

Kareem has it unquestionably in 71 71 bucks one of the best teams of all time Wilt takes it back with the 72 Lakers they had the 33 game winning streak they win the finals he grabs it back Kareem then grabs it back and Kareem has it for depending on

how you feel about Rick Barry in 1975 when Golden State when they ran the slate, they won the title. He was 30 points a game. But I kind of feel like Kareem had this really until 76. Now, interesting belt piece here.

Julius is in the ABA, stringing together titles. And I think Julius, even though he's in the ABA, has it in 76. I got to give it to him. Just watching the tapes, even though he's in the ABA, has it in 76. I got to give it to him. Just watching the tapes, I think he has it. 77, Bill Walton grabs it with the Portland Trailblazers.

He's just dominating. He's kicking ass. Then he gets hurt. Belt's vacant. We're now vacant for the 78 playoffs, 79 playoffs. Nobody knows who the best players. 1980, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar grabs it back. Heroic win against the Sixers.

Plays on the sprained ankle game five, so he has it. Somewhere, somewhere 81-82 range, Moses grabs it. Thank you. And Moses has it. Moses has it maybe when he beats the Lakers in 81 and takes this crappy Rockets team to the finals by himself. I think he has it at that point. Has it in 82.

Gets traded to the Sixers, one of the best seasons of all time. So he has it 83. Then Bird has it 84 to 87. Magic steals it from him in the 87 finals. Magic has it 87 to 88. 89 range, Jordan grabs it. Jordan has it 90-91, 92-93. Wait, can we just back up to the Bird-Magic thing?

Magic was never considered the best player in the world prior to 1987. No. Bird won three straight MVPs. I know he did. I'm aware. He was the best. And then Magic beating him in the finals,

Magic took it. And then Magic had it. Magic won three. He was the best. And then Magic beating him in the finals. Magic took it. And then Magic had it. Magic won three MVPs in four years. Then Jordan has it. Jordan goes to play baseball. Hakeem's like, thanks. I'll take the belt. And he has it for two years. Jordan comes back. I'll take it back. He has it for three.

1999 lockout year. Vacant. No belt holder. I'm not giving it to Tim Duncan who wins the title that year he wasn't quite Tim Duncan and I'm not giving it to him 2000 Shaq 2001 Shaq

Duncan has it from 02 I think through 07 there's some maybe Dwayne Wade there in 06. No. Duncan was the best player in the league, I think, for six years. Right?

Do you disagree with that? You're not going to get any disagreement from this guy when it comes to praising Tim Duncan's status. Because it just felt like, hey, go through the playoffs when they didn't win the title. And it was always something stupid yeah right and so i i love it personally i look there's gonna be some kobe

stuff but shack towards the end like it was kind of over by 0506 he wasn't he was on bad he was on even though kobe so you can make a case for ko in 06. And if you want to make the case, I'm fine with it. When Kobe averaged 35 a game and Duncan didn't make the finals. And if you want to say Kobe grabbed it for a year, I'm not going to fight it. But that team did lose,

I think in round one or round two, that Kobe team. So you know what? Let's give it to Kobe in 06 and then back to Duncan 07. I like the Duncan because it could be just a year I just don't want to hear like oh he won it

he lost it he won it he lost it he was the most important player in the league for a really long time so I'm glad you did it that way so we'll give it Duncan 0-2 to 07 Kobe grabs it I think he has it in the 08 season even though they don't win the title and then he has it 0-9-10 so he has it in the 08 season, even though they don't win the title. And then he has it 09-10.

So he has it for those three years. And 2011 might be vacant. And then Dirk shows up. At that point, LeBron. Dirk grabs it. I think LeBron's the best player in the league at that point. But not in the finals. So I think Dirk has it.

I think Dirk has it after the finals. But see, this is going to be my point as we close, because this is where it gets really interesting. It can't just be a revolving belt of who had won titles. But if Dirk beats him in the finals, I don't know how you could say LeBron is the belt. Because I think he's the best player in the world. Nobody thought Dirk was the best player in the world

when he won that title. It was an awesome run. Good for Dirk. Great underdog story. But LeBron did win the MVP in the world when he won that title. It was an awesome run. Good for Dirk. Great underdog story. But LeBron did win the MVP in 11. So maybe it's Kobe. I don't know. I almost feel like 2011 is either Dirk or vacant for me.

Is that the Rose year? Wait, is that the year Rose won the MVP? Yeah, but I wouldn't have said he was the best player there. So maybe we go vacant. Then LeBron grabs and LeBron has it. You could say he has it from 2012 to 2018. Is there

a Durant case for you at any point? My Durant case was going to be right around this time. So 17-18? No, it was going to be a little bit later. It was when we started having the Giannis argument and I think more people were on the Giannis is the best player in the world mode and I felt like

what KD did with the Nets even though they lost to Milwaukee I lingered I lingered with that and then I finally relented because I just felt like wait a minute why would I watch somebody play basketball the way Durant does offensively and then think Giannis is better than him considering the level of skill? Like, I think that's why there's always been this odd. It's never as bad as Rudy with the American players, but I think a lot of the American players would look at Giannis and go, OK, yeah, but there's not like all this crazy stuff in there. And then finally, it was like, yeah, but his intensity from the moment he steps on the floor to his his overpowering of you and the fact that it worked you know Giannis is an entirely different conversation if he doesn't make all of his free throws in that closing game but I mean

the guy went for 50 in a closing game to win a title so I think there's I know personally I was arguing Durant longer than than I should have been but I still think there were some Durant moments in there so you wouldn't have gone his first two Warrior seasons. Durant was never the best player in the world to you. It was always still LeBron at that point. Because I think you can make a real case for Durant in 17. You can, but it's cheapened by the fact that he's playing with the guy that's number two in the world.

Right. And so the funny thing about Steph winning the MVPs, I never once thought that Steph was actually the better player than LeBron. It's a regular season award. Right. Curry's never in here for you at any point with the belt. As much as

we love him. I agree. Yeah. I don't think there was ever a point where I said he is, if they had won it in 16, maybe before Durant, that would have been back-to-back titles. He would have won another MVP. There's a chance you could make the case. But I still think with LeBron being in the league at that point, still in his prime, I love Curry. Everybody knows that. I never thought he was actually a better single basketball player than LeBron was. So, no. He doesn't actually,

I don't think there's any moment that he has the belt. All right. So, we'll give LeBron 11-18. I think Kawhi 100% has him in 2018. He won the belt. He was the best player in the world by the end of that season.

He just was. I normally don't like doing that, but he just... Yeah, yeah. We're cool. We're cool on that. 2020 bubble year, I almost want to go vacant. Too weird.

This is where I'm in my Durant phase, but go ahead. But then, you know, he's not playing enough. He's hurt. No, he didn't even... Yeah, he was hurt. I'm just talking about the overall status of who was where. I get it. I do think Giannis in the 2021 finals through the 22 playoffs probably had it.

And then Jokic took it. And now Luka has a chance to grab it. Or at least it's a conversation with him versus Jokic. Because I don't know what else Jokic could have done in the playoffs. He's pretty unbelievable. So I hate dinging him on it. But if Luka rips through the Celtics team,

which I think is a better team than Dallas, but if Luka will be the reason they win, and if he can beat them, I think we have to have the conversation. Well, the conversation has already started. It will be had. I just don't like the finality of it because that's not what this is.

I know we're going to talk Tatum a little bit later today, but that Tatum's kind of hard to pin down when I don't think it's that hard to pin it down, but because you can't really just slot him and he's not easy to slot, that that means there should be more conversation about it. Even if Luka wins, it will be... This is why I always hated some of the Heisman stuff

where people say, oh, you should have the MVP vote after the playoffs. Well, if he did that, then the only time anybody would ever win the MVP is whoever the best player was on the team that won the NBA Finals, and that's not really what the award is supposed to be. If you want it to be that, then go ahead and just come up with a different award. But it

will not matter what you do in the regular season at all. And maybe that's the whole point, but I just don't think it makes any sense. Same thing with the Heisman. Some quarterback has a huge game, national title, didn't win the Heisman. And people are like, oh, he should have won the Heisman. You're like, well, wait, what the fuck are we doing? So if Luca gets through Boston and wins this, I would say more of the basketball media would be willing to anoint him the best player in the world because it's sexy and it's fun to say

when I know I'll be waiting. I'll be like, I'm going to need another year before I'm ready to put somebody over Jokic. And maybe it's that third quarter in game five. 1970, vacant. Kareem, Wilt, Kareem again. Julius, Walton, 78-79, vacant. Kareem, Wilt. Kareem again. Julius, Walton. 78, 79, vacant.

Kareem, Moses, Bird, Magic, Jordan, Hakeem. Jordan again. 1999, vacant. Shaq, Duncan, six years. Kobe, LeBron, eight years. Rossella says Duran. I veto that one. Kawhi. Bacon.

Giannis. Jokic. We'll see about Luca. Let's take a break. Metro links and cross links are reminding everyone to be careful as Eglinton Crosstown LRT train testing is in progress. Please be alert as trains can pass at any time on the tracks. Remember to follow all traffic signals, be careful along our tracks, and only make left turns where it's safe to do so.

Be alert, be aware, and stay safe. As the world's population grows, so does the need for resources like potash to support sustainable food production. This is why BHP is building one of the world's most sustainable potash mines in Canada. Essential resources responsibly produced. This is what BHP has committed to Canada. The future is clear. It's happening now at BHP, a future resources company. To discover how, visit bhp.com slash better future. I want to talk Celtics Pacers, but just quickly. The Gobert trade, are we back? We lost the Kyrie thing. We thought the Kyrie thing was stupid.

Well, turned out we were wrong. I wouldn't have wanted to give him $100 million. I mean, if my owner came to me and I was a GM, he'd be like, hey, how come we didn't give Kyrie $100 million? It was $120. Do you want me to forge you some stories? Amazing resurgence by the guy. Give him credit, man.

I really like watching him play basketball. I'm glad he figured out his life. It's really fun to watch him. Terrific Robin. I texted this to you. What other sports conundrums have rivaled you can or can't win with Rudy Gobert? I'm trying to think if there's got to be some quarterback

that we argued about like this. You asked me about this earlier today. You know, what's funny is I always think about the green monster because when you grew up in Boston, you're like, how come they don't win?

And be like, Oh, there's something about pitching at the green monster. Like sir, the green monster. Okay. But what we learned, what we learned was that was a stupid theory because they hadn't won in

so long you had to come up with reasons it was like maybe it's the wall and it's too distracting for pitchers pitching out of the stretch like that was something people are listening to right now being like people said that be like yeah our elders our uncles well part of the problem was that they would build teams that was were monster friendly teams right-handed sluggers that would be like oh my god he's gonna be amazing with the monster and uh once they stopped doing that they started winning world series yeah so does that mean you can't really say that because i don't think rudy gobert has four rings in his future um look it's weird it's weird to see somebody treated with this much disdain by so many of his peers,

who has won the defensive player of the year four times. And who's been a really successful regular season guy. And he's been in a lot of playoff games. And yet Draymond, who like they almost have to hose him down. He's so excited on the TNT set that it's going this badly for Gobert. Luka like can't hide his disdain. But you go through, it just seems like a lot of people

just don't want this guy to succeed. They don't like the way he plays. I can't believe this. And for the record, I'll just say, I imagine there's going to be somebody that just figures out with money to put together the group to just have the TNT crew be doing

once a week studio shows. I have a hard time believing that this is just sort of over you mean when nbc just hires the entire team they're gonna be fine it's like the dumbest discussion of all time is oh my god we have to say goodbye inside the nba the guys are gonna be fine everybody calm down nbc is gonna hire them and if they don't amazon's gonna hire them we're fine but if they didn't if this really were the last week and they're like hey we're gonna have draymond green come by like i

remember talking to mel and todd about the draft and i was like look you year-round draft guys this is your thing yeah like we're hit we're hitting you up 12 months out of the year and people love draft content and then ESPN will just start rolling out all the former players and then these guys and look I do it for the NBA I'm not a year-round NBA draft guy I cram and then I share my thoughts and I try to say that as if I know I can't do this year-round the way the other guys do who I have a ton of respect for but at ESPN like they'd have a former player come by, watch some tape.

They'd be on with McShay or Mel, who'd spent the entire year watching film of these guys. And they would just have like these outrageous views. Now the thing with the draft is you're going to be right and you're going to be wrong, no matter how much or how little work you do, because it's projecting people. But I'd ask McShay, I was like, what's that like?

He's like, Mel and I call it Daytona. It's like Jaws and Hodge come in on their bikes, their choppers, and they just start like barreling through town. Like, this Andrew, look, I don't see it. You know, so I don't.'t anyway back to the original point i can't believe they're putting draymond on the broadcast during this time he fucks it up he doesn't understand the difference between being funny and critical and just being fucking mean although draymond's

been a heater of delusion i mean look i can tell him firsthand a lot of people do not like tax content so you might want to bottle that one up if you did the Shaq thing about how it's not set up for him to be rich with taxes and fines and everything else that he said. But imagine going to Mike and Mike on your last week and going, hey, Carrot Top's sitting with you guys for your last week on ESPN Radio. No offense to Carrot Top, just different styles of humor Amir Blumenfeld tweeted that it was like Cousin Oliver's 11 episodes on the Brady Bunch which is probably the most dated pop culture reference I'm going to drop all year

but I thought it was a good joke who was Cousin Oliver? he was the guy they brought in the last Brady Bunch season he was like their wacky cousin it's like this is the last Brady Bunch season why are was like their wacky cousin. It's like, this is the last Brady Bunch season. Why are we screwing this up? Is that like Zach? I don't think it's Draymond's fault.

I don't think there's a single human brain they could bring in for the fifth spot that I'd want to hear from. Because this is the last run with these four guys on TNT. They're going to go to another network, but not with all the same employees. Anyway. Wait. So the holdup, though, was that they said that Ernie wouldn't work somewhere else potentially well he might be near the end of the road i think is the problem he might just be ready to retire soon so he's been a turner since you know for decades does he want

to jump somewhere else people i'll tell you what the history tells me it's like hey do you want to work one night a week on this seasonal job for millions of dollars instead of doing nothing? Most people do the former. Or he stays at Turner and does baseball and some other stuff. And he can say he worked there for 40 plus years, however long it is. I don't know. I don't know the answer. What happened to Minnesota's historically great D is the other question.

I know I did a whole segment on this podcast about trying to wonder about where they placed against the 89-04 Pistons. The problem is they don't have the specific defender to defend the 6'8 guy with size who can get to all the spots he wants. So basically they couldn't have defended Larry Bird, Luka Doncic. It's probably it. But if we're going historically great, the 89 Pistons and the 04 Pistons had guys to defend Bird and Doncic. So that would be the fatal flaw for the Minnesota argument. I don't think I did a very good job on the Rudy thing, though,

because I went on two different tangents there, so I apologize, but this isn't really, they're the Rudy moments that we don't like. First of all, there's no center that would have closed out on Luca. I don't think, I mean,

even when B, I mean, would when B have changed that shot, dude, we're going to see it in a week with Porzingis. They're going to try to do the same stuff to Porzingis and pull him out 30 feet from the basket with Luke on him. That Dallas, everything they do're going to try to do the same stuff to Porzingis and pull him out 30 feet from the basket with Luke on him. Dallas, everything

they do is going to try to have that happen. And if it's not him, it's Al Horford. That's what they did. I feel like Horford's been in every defensive action for like 10 straight games. Like every single one of them. I know that's not true, but it feels like it. As much as I'm not the biggest

Rudy guy, it does seem incredibly nasty because he's a foreigner and maybe resentment about the contract. And there was something going around of the top 15 players' annual salary for this year. The only one that's still playing is still Rudy. There's always Rudy moments that I don't love. Most of them have to do with him touching the basketball. But this isn't 3-0 because of Rudy.

It isn't. It's Ant of Rudy. It isn't. It's Ant and Cat. Do you agree with that? I would. My Blame Pie. Blame Pie. Remember that show? Blame Pie.

Ant, highest, probably 42%. Towns, 40%. And Rudy, 18%. Unless you want to work some coaches in. Let's move to the Boston Celtics, who are 75-20. Good record. Have a chance to sweep and get to the finals.

I looked this up too. I did a lot of homework this week. Teams with 20 losses or less heading to the finals. I looked this up too. I did a lot of homework this week. Teams with 20 losses or less heading to the finals in the last 40 years. Here's the list. It's not a long one. The 96 Bulls were 83 and 11. 16 Warriors, 85 and 14, they lost. 97 Bulls, 80 and 15. 17 Warriors were 79 and 15. 86 Celts, 87 Lakers, both 78 and 16. The 2013 Heat, 78 and 20. 92 Bulls, 78 and 20. And the 2024 Celtics, 75 and 20. Those are a lot of good teams, Rosillo. Now, literally every star in the East got hurt. That was helpful. I don't know if 75 and 20 happens if maybe five more guys played. Butler,

Giannis, Embiid, we keep going. But still, 75 and 20 is impressive. It just is. And I don't think they get enough credit, especially like, you know, the Tatum dialogue is going to, especially if we have nine days until the finals, the Tatum dialogue is going to be excruciating. Just if you're going to talk about Tatum and Brown, just mentioned the durability and the competitiveness and the success. Because I think I've talked about this over and over again on the pod. Winning matters, success matters, reliability matters. Reliability matters. And those guys are fucking

reliable and they're fucking successful. And just mention it as you're critiquing them. I listened to you talk about where Tatum is and what I think makes it complicated, but it shouldn't be complicated. It's like, hey, he's never going to be the best player in the league. He never has been. He's never going to be.

But he makes another all-NBA first team. He's in that group. But because he's not ever going to be the best player, it's frustrating for some reason. Like you're entitled to have the best player all the time. And then on the other side of it, it's like, well, he's actually really good, so you can't be that critical of that much stuff. Like, yeah, maybe his demeanor is a little subdued

for who's supposed to be the one. You know, the reason we fall in love with Ant are some of the same reasons we criticize Tatum. I think with him, and even in the Cleveland series, in this Pacers series, we know they're going to shoot a ton of threes. I'd say there's five to seven threes where I'm like, why did you even bother?

Like, you guys are good. Like, there are teams that don't have good players, on-ball creators, and I'm like, okay, I can see why you took that three because you can't get anything better. Yeah, you're playing the math. Right. Boston will still have five to seven.

Like, why did you, like, there's still so much time left in the shot clock. You guys didn't even give yourselves a chance in this possession, but I think it's kind of like with stars where if you have a real star and he takes 20 shots a game there's probably five you wish you didn't take but in the nights where he's making these impossible shots it's because he's he's even willing to take those so if you're a coach

you kind of have to allow it I think the Celtics are kind of like a team version of that with the three-pointing uh with the three-pointpoint stuff. But to watch what he did in overtime and then for them to come back in game three where it looked like they were ready to take the night off, there's so much more to like about Tatum. But because he's not extremely disappointing or the best conversation, it feels like people don't know what to do with it.

The way he gets talked about is as if he gets talked about like he's never been out of the second round or something. I know. Or that some of the big clutch games that he had, like Game 6 Bucks, Game 6 7 Philly, like what he did to Durant. It's like none of that shit happened.

Beat Butler in a series. I thought he played I thought Game three was the second best game he ever played. And I've watched most of them and I've seen all the playoff games. Because game six box was the best one he ever played. There's no question. 46.

He was 17 for 32. 7-15 from three. And he was on the road and they were going to lose and get sent home and he just, that was the best he's ever played. Pacers, 36-10-8, 12 for 23, no turnovers. There was some two-way stuff that he was doing in that game. I just think his defense, his rebounding,

he's always in the right spots. His passing, those two behind-the-back passes to Horford were out of control. He's always making the right decisions. I thought he was awesome. And then the other two I had, if we're going to do four, would be game seven against the Sixers, which was a blowout, but he had 51. And then game three against the Nets in Brooklyn when they're up 2-0,

39-5-6, six steals. And KD had 16 points, got to the line nine of 10, and was just like, wow, he's better than Kevin Durant. I can't believe it. This is like, we're doing this. He's actually a better player than Kevin Durant. So I think those were the four most important games for him. But in the playoffs, he's 26.

Why last night, though? Why last night? I'm surprised. What do you mean? I'm just surprised that you just make your case that last night's the what fourth so i'll make the case i think it was second best and here's why second best sorry they needed a win like that they needed a pop some chest hair they needed one of those ones they're down 18 indiana's making every fucking shot in the planet, right? Jalen says afterwards, he's like, every guy in the team turned into Michael Jordan. Nembhard, his season high was

22 points. His playoff high was 20. And I think he, what did he finish with? 35? Everything he's throwing up is going in. TJ McConnell's making threes from the corner. Everything's going in for that team. Miles Turner. And it's 84-66. And Tatum just had these little moments, right? He has a drive and then three-point play. They get a layup. They stem it off, so they're kind of lingering around. 88-76, has a three, has a block, does get passes to Wade for free throws. 93-87, that's when he hits Horford with the behind the back to cut it to three. 97-90, gets fouled on a three when they really need a basket, then passes to Wade for a three.

When it's 109-101, 239 left, Brown hits a big 12-footer. Tatum has another behind the back for out three, and he hits that big three at the top of the key, and they come back. But I just, every time they needed to play for him, I felt like Cameron Brown made it. And then drew took over down the stretch, but I thought he was,

you watch a game like that. And it's like, what are you guys talking about? This guy, if he's not one of the four best players in the league, he's the fifth. Like who are you taking over him after you get through the top four? You're not taking anybody. He's the fifth best player in the league. Okay's the fifth. Like, who are you taking over him after you get through the top four? You're not taking anybody.

He's the fifth best player in the league. Okay, so wait a minute. Let's do this right now. Jokic, Luka, Giannis, SGA. And Tatum is fifth by any calculation. Not Jalen Bronson? No.

Not Ant now? No. No, because part of the thing, this is what I've been saying all year with Tatum, like part of the case for him is like his ability to play all these different roles during a game, I really value. It's like when, like way, way back with Havlicek where he could play guard, he could play forward.

You could even go small and put him at the four. Like you could just kind of mold the team around him. And I think Tatum has that ability too. He's playing point guard a lot of the game yesterday where he's bringing the ball up and setting picks for him 40 feet from the basket and he's deciding everything. But he was also taking a big defensive responsibility too. I ride for tatum i it frustrates the hell out of me when he when he misses threes and i don't know why he thinks he's such a good three-point shooter when he's way streaker than he is i've said that a million times but i think the guy's an excellent excellent basketball player yeah i was talking to somebody in the league about it the other day and we were just talking about like kind of things we're doing now and i say that not

to brag i say it to like alert the audience of like hey this is what somebody who does this for a living because i always think that's the most valuable stuff you can share and the point was really interesting because it was kind of like you know how when you watch yokich and you want him to do more more right right but his inherent philosophy right like what he wants to be is a connector yeah and the guy's like i'm not saying tatum's even like in that yokich class but tatum does so much more and you would rather have that like it'd be great if he were luca okay i agree sga is better i mean look as much as I love Ant, I couldn't make any kind of case that Ant was better than SGA.

I liked watching Ant more, but SGA, just look at the numbers. And then I go into next year feeling even better about SGA. I still think people are turning the page on Giannis a little too soon here. Embiid would be the other person that would... I'm not. Right, you're not. Embiid would be the other person that would be brought up in this,

in the fifth spot, considering you won the MVP. But here's the thing, Rousseau, because I've heard this, and it really bugs me when we talk about players' careers, how people pit against each other, and nobody cares about the durability piece.

The durability piece has to be a piece of it. I need guys who are going to play, who I know are going to play, be able to play big minutes in the playoffs. Tatum's playing again, like 40 plus minutes every playoff game. You know, this is why I guarantee everybody in the planet would think LeBron James is a better basketball player than Jalen Brown, right? And he, and he is, he's more talented. But if I'm trying to win a title over the course of eight months, do I want Jalen Brown or a guy who's 39 years old? Who's the safer bet? Who do you trust more? Who can guard somebody on the other end? Who do you have to worry about? Like, oh no, I don't want to burn too much energy on this. Who's willing to kind of pop around in a game

and maybe not take a shot for nine minutes in the fourth quarter because somebody else is feeling it. Like you got to think about shit like that. And I think when you're talking about somebody in their twenties, they're just more reliable than people in their thirties. It's a fact. Injuries come into play, um, consistency, um, durability, especially if you're going round after round after round. We're watching Ant, who's 22, who's the physical specimen. He's worn out, and we're three games into the Western Finals. So watching how Tatum and Brown, what they put in their bodies,

and how they're able to come back in a game like that, I think that's part of it. It is. Jimmy Butler is like 35. I think people would think Jimmy Butler is as good as Tatum or in the vicinity, but Jimmy Butler misses 20, 25 games a year. I don't know what Jimmy Butler is going to be next year.

He's going to be in his mid-30s. Do you trust him to be able to play for eight and a half straight months? I don't. Yeah, and if I'm Jimmy Butler too, you've been around, you've had some really great moments. You think at this stage of your life

you're going to be talking shit when you're not playing while tatum's out right playing you know and i know this has already been covered before by pat riley more importantly than anybody else but the durability thing is like the pierce argument because you know pierce was never the best player in the league and i would say he rarely was even flirting with top five in his championship window. Two all-NBAs, right? He never got first-team all-NBA and maybe got one second-team all-NBA and that was it. But when I would talk to the Celtics about like, okay, where is he? Like, how do you see it?

Like, I know how I feel, but like, how do you see your own player and where he is? And they were like, man, he does not. This guy plays every game he plays through everything which is why i always hate the wheelchair meme because it's like you guys think he's soft like that moment doesn't make any sense to me either i was in the building for it but the truth is he played through everything so he may not be like peak talent of the McGrady's and the Kobe's and all these guys. Look,

I'm not comparing Pierce to Kobe, but there was a, there was a shorter like peak window for him, but he played all of the time. And it's why Boston is on this extended run here with Brown and Tatum going back to 17 before Tatum got there and then 18 again. But it's going to be weird in this series if Dallas wins and Luke is clearly the better player because he's clearly the better player

and Tatum's going to have to go through all this shit all over again. Because I don't even know who I'm picking. This Dallas-Minnesota series has made me now go, whoa, what am I going to do now? I thought I knew what I was going to do before the series started. Boston has won the last four against Dallas. am I going to do now? I thought I knew what I was going to do before the series started. Boston has won the last four against Dallas. Granted, completely different Dallas

team. None of those, yeah, they don't mean anything. I think they're the type of team that you would create if you're trying to beat Dallas is the thing that I think is in the most in their favor. Tatum and Brown to throw at Luka. You're not going to stop them but a little drew maybe

maybe a little drew like by the way drew is kind of an expert and drew we didn't even talk about like yesterday holy shit drew holiday last night that is one of my all-time favorite drew holiday games just for the moments when and i i love what jj reddick did on the broadcast because not a lot of analysts do this he told us how much he noticed that the Celtics defense just was a switch. He was like, okay, now they're awake. Look at this, look at this. And they did a good job of alerting you to it

as you were watching it. And the stuff that Drew did to turn that game around late, getting Siakam in the end one. I have a theory that Siakam's really good for 46 minutes, but it's a working theory. So I'm not there yet.

He's an eight inning, eight inning starter. Eight inning starter. What are those? It's funny. Cause I've watched Drew his whole career. And I think I've been on the higher side of people who love Drew, who never rooted for him,

watching him day in, day out. Like some of the shit he does, man, that, that little lefty post up movie has against big guys where they're like wait are you gonna try to scorn me right now and then he uses his body like that's one of the biggest baskets of the game was him going at

turner with the let with the weird fucking lefty movie has but uh and then the steel the steel was nuts and carlisle thought it was a foul and it just wasn't. He knew Nembhardt was going right the whole game and he just got to the spot and beat him to it. That had to be a brutal game to leave if you were Pacer Shan. Well, how about Carlisle? He was so pissed, right? Because you figured after the 15th shot that you pulled out of your ass, you're probably winning the game. I have more Celtic stuff, but we got to take one more break.

Back to the Celts. I'm going to do a little... I didn't tell you we were going to do this. Bucks Heat 2023 sliding doors. Okay. What happens if Giannis doesn't get hurt and

Milwaukee just beats Miami in that series? Because here's how it plays out. Giannis gets hurt and he comes back and they're down 2-1. Butler has 56 in game four. Drew goes six for 19. They blow a big lead.

And then game five, do or die. Butler is 42. Drew goes four for 11. They blow a big lead. And then game five, do or die. Butler is 42. Drew goes four for 11. Another blown lead. Coach Bud gets fired. The higher agent Griffin. Well, Miami beats Boston in seven. Now Boston and Milwaukee are like,

oh shit, we got to do something. This didn't work out. Boston trades smart for KP and two first. Milwaukee's like, we've taken this Drew thing as far as it can go. We need to get Dame. They trade Drew, Allen, a 29 first and 28, 30 swaps for Dame. And then Boston takes one of the firsts they got from KP, puts it with Brogdon, Rob, and a 29 first, and they get Drew. And it all happens because, I think because Giannis fell down in game one. I think if that doesn't happen,

I think Drew's still in the Bucs. I don't think they do anything. I think they beat Miami. They probably beat Boston. Right? I didn't love that Boston team last year. It's just the smart Brogdon. Rob Williams is he playing?

He's not playing. Grant was kind of wearing on people. Joe Mads' first year. I think Milwaukee would have beaten him. And then Drew's still on the team. So I look back at that and I'm like, wow, that was fucking crazy. Jimmy Butler had 56 points in a playoff game. Giannis got hurt.

Like, what the fuck happened? It's going to be like a documentary someday. That's my rant. Only thing I'd offer is, do you think if Milwaukee, let's say, loses to Denver in the NBA Finals and Dame is available,

Milwaukee goes, we're fine. We don't want Dame. Because I would tell you the league's history is that you would just want to up your level of talent and you'd be like, okay, fine. We'll take Dame. It seems like they were really afraid Giannis was going to ask out and felt like the Dame trade was the way to prevent that. But when you think of they traded Drew Holiday, Grayson Allen, who turned into one of the best shooters in the league this season, a 29 first and 28-30 swaps for Dame, the way Dame looked this year,

and then watching what Drew's doing in the playoffs, that's a brutal trade. I didn't like it when it happened, and it looks worse now when you see how good Drew is in a playoff series. And I think Drew is put in a little bit more than maybe he's capable of at this point in his career. Milwaukee last year, we had the ball a lot.

Did you see he averaged 17 shots a game last year? Now he's at like, I don't know, 10, 11, and he's more doing Drew stuff. He's in a great spot because I think that would be probably one of the critiques of him with the Bucs fans would be, hey, we all love him for all the same reasons. Celtics fans love him now, but he also was in a spot where he was taking way too many big playoff shots. And now he doesn't even have to shoot with this team. Right. and now he doesn't have to he doesn't even have to shoot with this team right so in retrospect do you think Milwaukee would have said

let's keep let's keep these two we need to get another guard that can take some of the offensive load off Drew let's sell Giannis on that versus trading for Dame who you know I just didn't like the trade I still don't

but I've been wrong on a lot of stuff this year too. I had one last thing on Tatum and Durant too. Tatum from 2020 and 2024, 79 playoff games. And he's basically averaging 26, 9, and 6. Durant, ages 21 to 27, 2010

to 2016, averaged 29, 8, and 4. Stats are basically the same except Tatum has more assists and Durant scored three more points a game. He played 91 games. Tatum's playing 79 during the stretch plus the finals. Tatum has 11 series wins and a finals and Duran had 10 series wins in the

finals. And I think Tatum's closer because I brought this up to Mahoney on Thursday. And I think we think of Duran and we think, well, this guy is the best scoring forward in history. You can't compare Tatum to him. But from a success impact stat standpoint and an age standpoint and what you've achieved, he's basically having the exact

same run Durant had. With the exception, Durant made the finals once. Tatum made the finals once. Looks like he's going to make it a second time. Which makes me wonder, does he have a level to go up like Durant made the finals once. Tatum made the finals once. Looks like he's going to make it a second time. Which makes me wonder, does he have a level to go up like Durant did in 17 and 18 for Golden State? Or did that happen

because Durant had better teammates? I still feel like Tatum's not a finished product yet, is my point. Yeah, you guys say that a lot and I don't understand that. Pretty sure this is who he is. I know he's young. You don't think the three-point shooting can get better though because it's gotten worse not better the last two years that would be the way for him to get better as the three-point shooting

I imagine that three-point shooting will get back but I also think it's a decision thing it's like what I was talking about before like when I don't like Boston's offense, I go, you had way more time to try to find something better than this, and you settled. I know they're going to take a million threes, but it's like, you guys are good. You're not a bad basketball team where it's like, none of us can dribble past anybody, so let's just take more threes. So, I think... Would you like what

they did yesterday when they were coming back? Because I thought that was about as sophisticated as they've been with actually like, let's get to the basket. Let's get good shots. Let's make the extra pass now granted they're playing an indiana team that you know compared to what we just watched in that dallas minnesota game i would say is a lot weaker defensively no i mean watching the pacers just try to survive here where there's still a lot of players that i kind of like there a little bit and the defense is better without Halliburton but you know

to me the next Tatum leap but I would have thought this would have happened already he's so big he's so good with his hands that you just think he could get downhill a little bit more and

he's going to settle he's always going to settle a little bit more. And he's going to settle. He's always going to settle a little bit more than we want. And that's when the haters will circle. I like that he went to the rim on that last play. He missed the layup and then Drew stripped them hard. But I thought that it was a good sign that he actually realized he needed to get to the basket. Jalen Brown, wanted to mention this.

Got that contract. Everyone made fun of him. He's been awesome. They're down eight. The game is basically, if they don't score in that position, they're down eight with two and a half minutes left. They don't score.

The game's probably over. He ends up with the ball. They post him up. He has Turner on his back. He hits a little 12-footer over him. over and he ends up with the ball. They post him up and he has Turner on his back and he hits like a little 12 footer over him. He's just been making a big plays at the right moments, which I don't think you always would have said about him. We'll see if it keeps going at the convert, if the competition is about to escalate, but last four playoffs for him, 74 games, he's 23 and seven,

49% shooting is playing 38 minutes a game and durable, which, uh, you know, I just, I just think he's another one that I feel like he's, I was making another list, just like top 30 players in the league. And to me, he's somewhere in that 20 to 22 range. And I don't think a lot of people would have him there. I thought he was, you voted for him for all NBA, right? Or you did not? I know you had Booker over him, right?

Yeah. You just love Booker. I do, because he's awesome. Well, get ready for a Jalen Brown referendum the next week. And then here's one for you. Al Horford. Only 22 guys in the history of the league have played at least 175 playoff games.

And then when it gets to 180, the list starts dropping. It goes like 16, 15. Some of the names on this list are names you would think like LeBron, Jordan, Duncan, Kareem, Magic, all those guys. But then there's some of those, like man, who's on this list, Robert Horryorry Robert Parrish Derek Fisher Tony Parker Dennis Johnson Iguodala

Byron Scott Danny Ainge is number 22 I was thinking Horford he's probably this decade's version of Parrish Horry Rashid Iguodala

like that kind of level of guy probably can't be one of your best three, but he's an awesome fourth guy and makes huge plays and can just keep playing a little longer, maybe a couple of years longer than you ever expected.

He's 38. He had like six threes yesterday. He's going to be playing a huge part in this dow series and this was a guy we thought was washed up three years ago but i just feel like he's been doing this for so long everybody's just like oh yeah al horford had another big game it's like this is fucking crazy that he's still doing this age 38 this is not a typical thing for big dudes so i love i love the the iguodala comp. It's great. Not because of their style

of play, but because of the impact and the trust. Great word. Can we have this guy on the roster? Can we have him out there with a closing five? He gets put into all of these things, which I know I already mentioned. I think I still have nightmares on his behalf in the

Cleveland series. It's why it's so important against Dallas to have Przingis back in there just to give them a different look. But I think that might be why they played Tillman, you know, but I think he, I think Joe Missoula got pissed at Tillman on something called timeout, yanked him out of there. I think it's why Bursette, you know, because I think the weird thing is Missoula at least has to develop some kind

of depth there on the fly, and that's what the East playoffs have been for them. I would have probably liked to see even a little bit more of that, even though that sounds like a ridiculous request for a team to be like, hey, can you ask the head coach to develop the bench a little bit here 100 games into the season? But it's going to be really important, because if they don't have Przingis and just thinking about how they're going to be attacking Horford, he's going to battle, he's going to be in the right

position, he's going to be doing all these things and it still won't really matter. They're going to have Porzingis. They threw him in the cooler. They threw him in the cooler. Joe Maz, I thought, was one of his best games he ever coached yesterday. And you mentioned that Tillman play.

That was a good example. He's got pissed. Tillman didn't get it. You know, they got an offensive rebound. Tillman fell asleep for a second. And he did one of those Eric Spolstra, like, you know, pissed off timeouts. Just like, I don't think we saw Tillman again. But it was Missoula's only paint touch of the game.

We had another one where he didn't like where the play was going and he ran out past midcourt to call the timeout but i just i like some of the stuff he did um there was a quote after the game when they i think white said halfway through the third quarter missoula was like stop feeling sorry for yourselves we have a chance to win this game and i kind of kicked them in the ass a little bit. But I think he's grown as a coach. Like that team, that win yesterday was, I think, the best win they've had all season. And granted, no Hal Burton, I get it.

But that crowd was into it. It's the kind of game that they would have fought back and then lost by two points at the end. And you'd be like, oh, man like oh man oh man i wish they had a better last but they actually won the game i think it was it was a weird little step for them i just that's how i feel you uncovered all sorts of positivity and evidence from game three i did i thought it was a really important game for them because I think they would have lost that game a couple of months ago.

And then won the series in five. Yeah. But I think there's a trust developing with those five guys specifically and white and holiday together. They're just really fucking hard to play, man. Wait, like the way those guys protect the rim. What other team have you ever seen that has guards protecting the rim like that? Over

and over again, they had a possession or four straight possessions in the third quarter where they had blocks. They're over and over again getting turnovers and racing. I think when it gets to a Dallas-Boston series, how Dallas controls not turning the ball over,

keeping the pace the way they want it versus the Celts get so much good stuff off defense and turnovers and making it so that the Celts are constantly just taking the ball out of bounds and walking it up. That's how Dallas is going to win. And then get to the final three minutes and

it's Luka and Kyrie versus Tatum and Derek White. Can I ask you a question? Yeah. Where will you rank these things? Hmm. 86, Buckner, really Bob Stanley. Eli Manning, come back.

Yeah. 18 and 1 yeah you're old enough we'll throw Bucky Dent in there please do it's a horrible day down to Dallas

as the ball no if you're gonna make the worst list of the worst moments of my sports life too many men in the ice has to be on there too

okay that was horrible 1979 moments of my sports life. Too Many Men in the Ice has to be on there too. Okay. That was horrible. 1979. Okay. That's before my time. Or 78, whenever it was. Okay.

Dallas down. Peter Clemo might be on there too. Dallas is down two. Game seven. At the Garden. Luka gets trapped. Swings it. Kyrie hits a game-winning three. Buzzer.

Kyrie knocking the Celtics out of the title. Yeah, seven seconds left. Game winner. That's it. Shot was good. Kyrie. Kyrie. I'm going to say this,

and I know it's probably going to be cut into some sort of clip. I don't have any animosity toward Kyrie like that. Like I really have enjoyed watching this year and I feel like it was five years ago and I don't know what happened to him in 2019. I don't know what happened at that point in his life. I don't know why it ended up so unhappily. Well, I'm just saying with the Celtics experience, right? And then the stuff with Brooklyn after, and there was a lot of animosity, but I look at this now, like they're playing great. Celtics

are playing great. And I really hope like at these games, the story is just like two really awesome teams battling versus like, oh, here's some shit that happened five years ago. But I know how sports works. I know that's how it's going to be. But no matter how you thought about Kyrie in the past, the guy's playing great. Got to hand it to him. Prediction, he's going to say something or do something. You're going to be so pissed within day two of the coverage

of the series actually starting. You're seriously thinking like, wow right that's surprised like i don't i see where you're at with the appreciation i mean he's been so good in this series too where i think the oklahoma city thing was like him picking his spots and i was kind of like what's going on with him and in this series it's like all right well i guess it's just on i mean his understanding of the moment, like whenever Minnesota felt like they were going to get back into the game, he hits that left side three. It's awesome to watch. Right, like kind of that not full court.

It's not like a fast break three, but it's like a transition three. We already talked about the other two plays that he made from the right side. But, man, even with appreciating that, I believe you, but I also think once the games start, there's going to be a part of you that's like, you don't want that guy celebrating on your court. You don't want that. I'm going to be way more annoyed with Luka. Because I'm already annoyed with Luka when I watch him

just for all the calls he argues. That's going to go into the games just rooting for the Celtics. That's going to drive me way more crazy than anything. I mean, the thing with Kyrie is he's been a really, really, really good teammate for them. Those guys like all like defend him and they all say the right things about

him. You can watch it. Like that team is super close. They all stick up for each other. Like that's the kind of basketball I want to watch. So I got to give it up to him. The luca luca bitching about every call that will annoy me way more and being unable to stop luca who also be super annoying like oh fuck tatum you fell for that again like that's gonna drive me you know way more nuts but i like the lively piece i want to

know when he comes back because that was about as bad of an injury as you know we've had in the playoffs where he's like oh that looked awful and they said he had a sore neck but i just don't know how that's not a concussion um when does he come back from that because we've seen guys take headshots where they're gone for like two weeks yeah okay here's the thing though with concussions we don't know so right but i think it's a it's it's a factor it could be something that looks awful and it's not even close to being concussion he could have just been like this kills because his neck wasn't tense and he gets blasted by a 200 and what 60 pound guy so uh i just think the concussion

speculation i'm glad we're past concussion content because we had a couple of peak years. There were people diagnosing them on Thursday night football. And I, I'm kind of glad that we're out of the glory years of, uh, doctors in the couch. So if you had to rank self-smab storylines, can Luca be the guys probably number one,

right? For this series, Luca belt, something, Luca, something related. We already know he's the guy, right? For this series. Luca Bell. Something Luca related. We already know he's the guy. But I'm saying something Luca,

like how high can this go with Luca? Anything Luca related, any storyline, like he's the number one story of that finals. I think. Yeah, because it's, you know, because of their second life in the season, because they were a five seed, you know, because it wasn second life in the season, because they were a five seed, you know, because it wasn't like going into the year, you know,

you just didn't, you had so many questions about who they were going to be. And then it just comes together. And then you're looking at the stack West. I'm like, I don't know. They're going to get through this. Like I still have these other three teams ahead of them. I was wrong about that. And so this all coming together with

like luca you know this is what i always want for the best players is i want the best players in the world to at least have this moment so we don't just sit around being like what's wrong with them what's wrong with them because a lot of times it would be maybe something's wrong with them but a lot of times it's who was in their way or how good was the team around them and this thing has just come together man in a way that's so impressive that that has to be it more than any other Celtics storyline, right? Yeah,

there's, there's a, an interesting Tatum conversation. If the Celtics win the title and he's the best player belt that no, it's just people normally we're used to when somebody actually wins a title. It's like that guy, he's the guy. And, um, you know, we've seen a couple of times over history, like when the Oh four Pistons won, it was like team.

Whoa. And it became more of a team combo than an individual combo, which I, I think will happen, but I think there's some pretty good Tatum stuff too. There's the Kyrie revenge series. There's a funny Porzingis revenge series plot. If he's healthy, kind of just cast them aside. Never heard great stuff about him and Luca.

And, uh, you know, could, could that be a fun one? This is, uh, this gets dark,

but, uh, there's a Jason kid revenge series too. I mean, he owned the Celtics in 2002 and 2003 and it was one of the darker moments with the Boston crowd that I'm not going to defend and I was in the crowd

for and I hated. That was one of the weird... It just was ugly all the way around. There were no winners. I just moved to town during that phase. I'm sure he hasn't forgotten that. There's the 18th Celtics banner. By the way,

they've only won a one banner in the last 38 years. Not insignificant. There's the Grant Williams factor. Who has the, who gets the, who lands the Grant Williams podcast? He just did one guest. Who did Grant?

He's warming up. Yeah. He'll be. Does he guest? Who did? Grant. He's warming up. Yeah, he'll be. Does he go? You should do it. Will you please do it? Does Grant go? Grant Williams? Grant will go.

Does he go? Is he working for NBA TV? I think you need to have him on. I actually would like to hear you and Grant. Why don't we have him on next Sunday, the three of us? I think it should be a Thursday. i think it should be you and grant just the two of us i'm just going to get in the way what if it's like one of those maybe it's like a comedian's getting coffee just grant and i drive around a car with cameras grant what happened in Dallas? By the way,

anyone out there in content that was like, we're going to drink a different liquid and drive around? Tea? Chamomile tea? Did you just, I don't know, come up with a different idea? There's a Drew Holiday, if they win the title,

two titles in four years as like one of the great Dennis Johnson type guys of his generation. Two behind LeBron. There's a really fun Al Horford combo. You like that show? Al Horford winning the title okay i'm interested oh long career wins it at 38 that's a fun story i love when the pod runs out of gas what do you you were like there's an interesting al horford one and i was like okay

i'm i'm ready. Al Horford hugging people. He's 38 is the selling point. It's called Al Horford. Season one is he's old and then he wins a title. He's old and it means a lot. He's hugging his kids and they're actually teenagers.

He's going to be sweaty. It's going to be crazy. Confetti everywhere. Other storylines as we have nine days to kill. Somebody will write a giant Nico Harrison piece because he did a great job. I like that he actually identified guys

that he had this crazy history with from watching them when they were like 12 and 13. He actually brought stuff in that is stuff that normal people couldn't have known. Like PJ Washington, how much he loved Dallas and the Mavericks and had always wanted to be in a situation like this.

Anyway, impressive by him. Then there's a weird Dallas ownership thing. They win the title. Who gets the trophy? It's not like Cuban's not going to be there holding the cubans not the governor anymore yeah i know but he's there it's going to be some guy philippe whatever his name is he'll be like who's where's cuban who's this guy is it going to be the vegas real estate guy yeah i think it i think whoever that dude is. I looked him up a little bit.

That's a nice life. Seems like it. I don't know. I don't know him personally, obviously, Bill, just from the outside, so maybe I'm assuming. Then the only other storyline I was thinking was just what's happened to home court. Like the Celtics have home court in the finals and I have no idea what that means anymore

because it just seems like anyone could go anywhere and win any game at any time. It feels like it's one of those pieces of information where you would look back years and be like, remember that four or five year window where home court didn't mean anything? Look at Minnesota and then Boston's had this weird stretch.

I would think with places like Boston, and by the way the Dallas crowd is incredible. The Minnesota crowd's been great. The OKC crowd. There's a lot of crowds throughout these playoffs. Look at that Pacers crowd last night. They don't have a chance.

Halliburton's not playing. Down 2-0. That place was on fire. So, I think there's a lot of places. I just can't fathom not wanting it um but you know whether it's the role player cliche thing of it it just statistically it's just absurd and it i feel like it has to be an outlier as as opposed to the new norm right i would say that except we're in like year four of it just doesn't seem to matter. Dallas has always had one

of the best crowds and I do think it helps the role players a little bit, but I was lucky enough to go to the 11 finals, those three games in Dallas against Miami and their crowd was a huge part of why they won. Their fans are great. They know when to cheer. They know when to make noise. They're just really good. The Boston crowd is also great, but I mean, sometimes with these finals games, when they're starting at 9.17 at night, there's just a weird energy thing that starts to happen. Once you start to get into midnight, everybody just seems like a little groggy.

So we'll see. Well, Boston's got to take care of business. Minnesota's got to take... If I told you one of these teams is going to come back and force a game seven, Indiana or Minnesota, who would you back and force a game seven, Indiana or Minnesota, who would you pick? Force a game seven?

Yeah. Oh my god. By the way, that's not happening, but you would say Minnesota? Yeah. I mean, I can make my case. I can make the case for it. I mean, I wouldn't have thought that Ant and Cat combined could continue to be that bad, even though Ant, overall,

I felt better about him, except for those two late plays again. And the missed layup thing is strange, but why can't they have a good night? You know, why can't they have a good night? Why can't you get a dud from, say, like Kyrie in game four? Right. And then he has a bad three-point shooting night. And then, you know, they go back to Minnesota.

You know, clearly the teams are close. But the difference is one team is completely comfortable in the uncomfortable moments and the other team is not. Yeah, Minnesota needs to be up 10 with three minutes left. Pacers, Halbert's done. He's not coming back. And the Celts are in this weird spot where I think they thought Porzingis

was going to come back for game four, but now it's like, why would you do that? Just put them in bubble wrap until game one. Game one's not until Thursday, I think June 6th. June 6th.

Jesus. And then there's two days off until Sunday is game two. And then it's another two days off until Wednesday, game three. So they just need to get him to that stretch. I don't think Porzingis has been gone for so long. I don't think people realize or remember how impactful he was for the Celtics because Horford's just been able to come in and play 37 minutes a game. But the Porzingis piece is going to be huge against Dallas.

Huge for rim protection. Huge for when their offense gets a little stale, stagnant. Can't wait. Well, the other thing, too, is just think about the spacing part of it. Gafford and Lively never really have to go after anybody. They don't. I mean, maybe somebody

ends up in a switch, but the whole point is you would hope now to be bringing Gafford or lively away from the basket. Anything else before we go? I have nothing interesting of note. I don't have anything either. Um, I'm bummed that we're going to do a podcast in a week

and basketball may have ended by five days earlier we're going to have to come up with some sort of crazy gimmick for a week from now redraft the 66 draft which draft 1966

yeah is that Rick Barry put me on the spot. I think it's something better. We'll come up with something. All right. Let's call this pod a pod. Thanks, Kyle Creighton and Steve Cerruti.

Really weird. Usually this week right after Memorial Day is an awesome basketball stretch where we just have games every night and stuff to talk about. And we could be done in 48 hours. So hopefully somebody will keep it going. And then hopefully it's not Indiana.

Hopefully it's Minnesota. Russillo, good to see you. Thanks, Bill. I don't have a few years with him on the wayside on the blue side never on I don't have a few years