The Bill Simmons Podcast - Matt Damon and Ben Affleck on Four Decades of Friendship and Movies. Plus, Logan Murdock on the Jaylen Brown Saga.

Episode Date: March 22, 2023

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Logan Murdock to discuss his new article on Jaylen Brown. They discuss his approach to the piece, Jaylen finding his place as a member of the Celtics, his upcoming contract, and more (2:02). Then, Bill sits down with Matt Damon and Ben Affleck to discuss their longtime friendship; sharing apartments and bank accounts; starting their own studio; tabloids and paparazzi; the '90s movie era; their new film, 'Air'; and more (29:27). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Matt Damon, Ben Affleck, and Logan Murdock Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, Jalen Brown's future, Damon and Affleck interviewed together. Almost feels like an all Boston pod. It's next. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste.

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You can do it on the FanDuel Sportsbook app. Coming up on this podcast, I'm going to talk to Logan Murdoch about his Jalen Brown feature that ran on The Ringer today. And then I've had Matt Damon on this podcast, I think three times. I've had Ben Affleck on my podcast or the HBO show twice, but never together. And the goal was always to get them together. And it finally happened, got them together for just an awesome interview that I'm really excited to share with you. So this is

an elite podcast. I almost feel like you should be paying me for this one. And yet, that's the this part of the podcast. It is late Tuesday morning. Logan Murdoch from The Ringer is here. You can hear him on The Real Ones. You can read him on The Real Ones. You can read him on TheRinger.com. He did a piece about Jalen Brown today that he spent some time on.

It's a feature. Some really good quotes from a lot of different people. Congrats on the piece, first of all. You realize that Celtics Nation is in a tizzy right now. Now everybody's worried Jalen Brown's going to leave. The short takeaway was, oh my God, Jalen Brown is going to leave. But Lost and that whole thing was, this is a really good piece with a really good interview and the kind of access and quotes that we don't see as much anymore. And I know you and I have talked about this offline, how hard it is to just get athletes to talk in 2023 and just to be honest about what's going on with them.

So what was your process just trying to get him to talk? Well, full transparency, I covered Jalen a little bit when he was at Cal. I was interning, you know, but I got to know him a little bit. And I think that's where the story starts. So where it started, you know, my relationship with him started when he was at Cal, but honestly starting this piece was at Cal where, you know, talk to a couple of his professors and just people that knew him around, around campus, because that's kind of where he got his mindset in terms of, you know, being an organizer and just seeing himself beyond the game. You know, it started with

his mom, Michelle, but it was, it was really cultivated in his one year at Berkeley because it really showed him that, you know, he want, it showed him that he wanted to be more than the game. And so that's where I kind of started. And then I think I started this process and reporting it out in November and talked to him in January. And it was just, quite frankly, the hardest piece I've ever done. But, you know, it was really, it was, it was just, quite frankly, the hardest piece I've ever done. But it was interesting getting in his head for four months. And he's a really, really, really deep person. And it was just one of those pieces where you had to have layers in order to be able to tell the Jalen Brown story.

So there's two things going on with him that concern me as a fan. And I'm a huge jaylen brown fan um but the kd trade rumors popped up last summer and the team never publicly said we're not trading jaylen brown this is stupid wives is out there and i was doing podcasts at the time saying they should come out and say this is bullshit we're not trading jaylen brown we want to build around tatum and Jalen. But in the Celtics fan universe, it became a big debate. Would you do this? Wait, that's crazy. You wouldn't trade Jalen Brown for Kevin Durant. He's one of the 15 best players of all time. So that became a whole dialogue that I think he was really aware of. And I don't think it was ever

kind of shut down to his satisfaction. So he had that piece. And then you had the Adoka piece, who was somebody that I think he really liked playing for. And I think the lack of transparency about how that was handled, which I think from an organizational standpoint, they couldn't really be that transparent because I think there was some HR stuff and some legal stuff. So the details were a little sparse even for the players. But I think those two things together put this start of the season, even though the Celtics were playing well, it just gave it a weird vibe. And now that they're not playing well, it's starting to come out. There was a New York Times piece last week, an interview with him that he had some tough quotes about the city of Boston and the fans. And then in this piece too, same thing. It seems like he's struggling with his identity as a member of the Celtics and whether, you know, the, the loyalty factors.

And then you go backwards with the history of the franchise, Ray Allen. That's why he left. They were going to trade him. He found out they're going to trade him in 2012, ends up signing with Miami the way Isaiah Thomas was treated in 2017. I think these guys are aware, as great of an organization as this is, there is that the moment we can

turn you into a better asset, we might. And it does seem like it affected them. There's a third thing to that, Bill, which is all of that stuff you talked about going on in the summertime, that goes on weeks after he helped lead the Celtics to a title. Not to a title, excuse me, to a finals run.

And he's thinking, hey, this is the best team that we have had in years, counting the times, the years that we had Kyrie. I got us to help get us to the finals alongside Tatum and Smart and M.A. with this guy. And now you guys are talking about trading me on top of the fact that I was a rookie when you guys did what you did to Isaiah Thomas. I remember seeing that firsthand. I'm speaking for Jalen in this.

And he's seeing this world where, you know, I might not. I am a asset involved in the institution rather than somebody that is a partner and trying to get us titles. And it's funny because it didn't really make the piece. But to your point about the New York Times article and his relationship with Boston, it's interesting because he already came when I talked to him. He had already come in with the notion of, you know, just having just just feeling weird about going to Boston based on all the things that he heard. Past baggage. Things like that.

Past baggage and things like that. So he was already getting that. And I feel like his time in Boston has been just, it's been filled with conflictions. Because, you know, first off, he thought that he should be a starter right away. And he did start in the beginning, but his playing time would dwindle. And, you know, he's over here looking at Ben Simmons in Philly.

He's looking at Ingram. And he was in L.A. at that point. But he's comparing himself to these other guys. Like, I think I'm better than them. Why am I not getting this opportunity? And all these things are happening on top of the fact that he's getting dangled for when Anthony Davis is on the market. Hey, there's Jalen Brown. He's a good asset. Or when Kawhi Leonard is there, he's always

being dangled. Paul George was another one. Yeah. He was always the one that got thrown in a room or whether it was true or untrue. I think from his standpoint, especially with the KD thing, I think they made a real mistake organizationally, not just coming out right away and being like, hey, we're not trading Jalen Brown. We love Jalen Brown. We want to build around him and Tatum. Those are our guys. And that's it. Don't believe any stories about this. But they never said anything. I thought, I don't know. I didn't think it was well handled. I don't think it was either was either i mean considering the fact that you at least publicly say you consider him a

uh a franchise star and i think i really do think um this summer was a big big turning point because it was yet another time after he is a friend after jalen has become this franchise cornerstone and then to be in trade rumors because it's one thing to be a young guy and be in trade rumors because that's just the game. But when after you lead a franchise to a title, or to a, I keep saying title, every time, if you lead a franchise to the finals, you expect to have some level of respect.

And, you know, that Kevin Durant thing happened a couple of weeks after that finals appearance. Oh yeah. And he's thinking like another person you guys think is better than me on top of the other, other things that I, other conflictions I have with this organization. So it's,

it's, it's been a tough go for, for Jalen. And, uh, you know, to be fair, to be fair on that trade thing,

we don't know if they ever talked to the Nets about an actual trade. But the problem is it was out there that they were talking or they were circling. And that's when you just have to squash it. And the fact that they didn't squash it in any way and just let it kind of linger and then become a debate within the fan base

and on the media and on talk radio, that's where I think they lost the narrative a little bit. Yeah, for sure. And now it's, you know, this is starting to come out as they try to make another playoff run, you know? And this is just going to be, it's going to be a tough thing overall for the Celtics.

This always is something that tends to happen with them. You know, say what you want about other organizations, but the Celtics are getting a bit of a reputation that they don't take care of their stars, which is something that the rest of the league sees. Now, they develop really, really well. They draft really, really well. But I think the next step for the Celtics, and they have a newer regime. This is not the Danny Ainge regime, but they have an opportunity or what they should be doing is showing the rest of the league, no, we take care of our stars within

the fabric of this organization. And they're kind of fumbling the ball on that, at least publicly. Yeah, I would agree with that. I mean, Danny left. I think Danny had the reputation. It was always the joke of Danny would trade his mother if he could get five more wins. And that was just the mentality that nobody was safe at any time. But, but he hasn't been there for a year and a half. And that's, that's what was so confusing to me as, as a Celtics fan and somebody who's followed this franchise for a long time that, you know, Brown already had enough baggage with the fact that Tatum was a little bit of the favorite son, right? Brown is a little bit of a middle child syndrome with Brown. And it's always been Tatum. Tatum is the most popular

guy in Boston. He is, um, he's the most popular athlete. And it's always been Tatum. Tatum is the most popular guy in Boston. He is. He's the most popular athlete. And once Brady left Tatum really last year became the guy and Brown has been, you know, his sidekicks the wrong word, but like his, his running mate, but it was always Tatum. I always compare it to a tribe called quest. Like it's Tatum is a, is Q-tip and, and Jalen Brown is five dog, right? Like five dog is the one, like he, you,

he can rap with anybody, but Q-tip is always the face of tribe called quest. And I, I really got that, that comparison when I, when I saw, when I went out to Boston, that I think Jalen is really,

really respected. And I think people really know what Jalen brings to the table, but you're right. Jason is the one he is. The, he is, he is the one. And I think also because Jalen embraces that in a way, I don't think, uh, excuse me, I keep getting the J's wrong, but Jason embraces that more.

He's, he shows more of himself than, um, than JB does. And I think that that kind of manifests all the way around is that, you know, I think that Jalen can be one of those guys, but he has to embrace him and show himself a bit more. And I don't think he necessarily does that. And I think that that really manifests

in how the city portrays both of them. Well, one of the reasons, and I was saying this last summer that I thought it was so important to keep him and invest in him and make him happy is this is one of these rare guys, young black guy who wants to come in and be part of the city and invest in the city and do all these charitable things and really try to make an impact on the city, which given the history and stuff is something I think the city, that fantastic, that he fell out of the sky,

basically. There's a money piece of this that you didn't really go into 100% in the story because it's kind of in flux. Because if he makes the All-NBA team this year, which is very possible, then the money thing suddenly doesn't become a problem. But right now, they signed him to a really good extension a couple of years ago. It's like 25 a year, but it's not the max. It limits because the CBA kind of limits the extension they can get. And this is why from about a year ago, I think the organization started to become a little concerned that he might jump because he could just make more money if Houston has cap space or name a team that all of a sudden in the year he becomes a free agent, just has the cap space, they can just sign him for more than the Celtics can pay him. Now the catch is if he makes the all NBA team this year, he's eligible for a five for 190. I'm sorry, five for 290, which is way more than anyone else can pay for him. So weirdly, it all comes down to, if he's a third team, all NBA forward, he'll get the money. And then it becomes a question of,

do they want to pay him and Tatum a combined, you know, 90, 95 million a year. And now you're in warrior's land, or is that your reason maybe to trade him and make him a franchise guy somewhere else? Logan, I have Jalen as my third team all-NBA forward if he's eligible there. He's played more forward than guard this year. And I think he's the logical pick to be one of the six forwards. Season ended today, it might change. But if he gets that money, do you feel like that changes anything? I feel...

See, even as you talk about it, I'm kind of on the fence about it because you say all these things about money and analytics and also the contract situation. But I think that all Jalen wants to know is that he matters within the organization, right? I think that there's a bigger thing here, which is, I mean, I'm sure he'll sign for as much money as he can. You know, that's generational wealth. But I think the key here is I think he wants to feel like he's a partner in this. I think he's always wanted to feel like that. I feel like he thinks that, man, I'm a guy that has played, you know, I've played in big moments for this organization.

You know, I've been a part of, I've been an integral part of a lot of different postseason runs. I just want my due. I don't want to, you know, lead us to a deep postseason run and then be the subject of trade rumors. And I don't feel like, at least publicly, you guys have my back. I think it's bigger than just

the monetary thing. Now, the monetary thing is great, and I'm sure that he will be really, really happy to get the bag, but I think it's more than that. I think it's more of the respect thing when it comes to Jalen, especially as it pertains to his relationship with the Boston Celtics. I 100% agree with you, and I think they misjudged it. I'm actually surprised that they didn't see this last summer. I don't get it. This was pretty easy to see because if you were just coming out of last summer and you said, which roster would you want of any roster in the league? You would have picked the Celtics. 100%. All of a sudden, KD becomes

available. And I'll never know what actually happened, but I am a little suspicious of the Nets. It's in their interest, right? If KD's getting, he's already demanding a trade for them to float out of Boston thing. All that does is undermine Boston. It's actually a really smart competitive move. I have never been able to get to the answer of whether they actually talk trade with them or not. And you could say, you know, Lakob wins the title. Wick was, Laker was once in Wick's ownership group. Laker gets one over him. He's definitely puffing his chest after the finals. And maybe you're like, oh my God, we got to beat these guys.

Wait, we can get Kevin Durant. And you kind of lose perspective for a second. But the whole thing bums me out. And it really makes me wonder in this day and age, whether you can keep a young core together anymore. You know, like OKC probably did it the longest with, uh, with Durant and Westbrook, but even that Harden only lasted a couple of years. He left and Durant finally wanted to get away from Westbrook. But for the most part, I do wonder if that the tribe called quest analogy,

is that, is that just the way it's going to be? There's only room for one in every city. There's only room for one franchise guy and people are always going to gravitate to it. I'd rather be the franchise guy over here than be part of something greater if I feel like I could be traded at any time. And I wouldn't blame them for that either. Yeah. No, it's a tough balance because I think Jalen wants to. I don't think Jalen is mad at his role on the team necessarily. No, he's been awesome this year. He's been awesome.

And no, I just mean like his role on the team. You know, we just talked about how, you know, how there's only room for one guy. I don't necessarily think that Jalen necessarily feels that way in Boston. I think he just, I think he feels slighted over the fact that, Hey, I, you know, I've been doing, I've been doing this great work. I should just, I shouldn't be having to deal with all of the, these rumors. I think that's where it goes down to, you know, like, and he's right, by the way, he's a hundred percent right. And like, I talked to him specifically, like, what is your relationship with, with, uh, with, um, withason tatum and how do

you guys coexist he says on the floor like we don't have no arguments we're probably different people but it's all straight and i and not only did i ask him that no i asked marcus smart who um i've i've increasingly have been seeing like he is that heartbeat of that of that locker room but he knows everything right he kind of keeps that in check and he's the one that's telling me no man they're cool they're fine they're it's not it's not a thing where it's um you know him versus them putting them against each other i think it's um that's more of a i think that's more of it's it's it's i don't think that is it's so i think that narrative is overblown i think that they are two guys that can play with each other for for a long time uh but i think that it's a bigger thing about Jalen's relationship with management

and not necessarily his relationship and how he can coexist with Tatum. I think that they are fine. I think that it's a bigger thing of a respect thing. The Jalen and Jason thing was always fine. I think anytime the team wasn't playing well, that became the media story of, can these guys coexist? Does it make sense to have them both?

But it was always media stuff. It was never real. The stuff last summer was real. The fact that they didn't shut that shit down immediately. You got quotes from a variety of people in this piece, including Kyrie Irving, who,

who I got to say, talked pretty eloquently about the problems with the year two Celtics, the year he was there about how they had too many guys and too much competition and nobody pulling each other because that was exactly what I watched that whole season. They just had too many guys and too many guys wanted a piece of the pie. And you could feel it the whole year and it never resolved itself. And I thought it was interesting that he actually came out and said it.

I also thought it was interesting that Jalen admitted that he didn't get along with Kyrie at all that second year and then they belatedly have become friends, but were not friends when they played together because we saw that too, but nobody wanted to admit that either. Yeah. I think that it's, um, I talked to, I talked to Kyrie in January before I went out to Boston and it was just, I didn't know kind of how

he was going to answer the questions or if he was going to answer them at all. And, um, I was really just, I was just as an eye opener, just how, just how, you know, I don't know. He was just very open with his thoughts on that. And it kind of made sense when you look in retrospect because there were two things at play with those 18-19 Celtics, which is all these young guys are really excited from the year before,

you know, the Terry Roziers, the Jalen Browns, they all think, hey, man, we won with this core. This core can win. But they are still having to have problems with their role because it was very much of a divide between young and old on that team from my vantage point. And that was the one thing. And the second thing is Kyrie, you could tell,

especially towards the end of that season, his mind just wasn't on the game. It wasn't on what were the tasks was at hand. And, you know. I mean, you can tell because he completely shit the bed in the Milwaukee series. Didn't seem like he gave a shit. Exactly. We could tell that his mind was somewhere else and that he was trying to figure that out.

And, you know, this didn't really make the story, but he wasn't the leader that he wanted to be in Boston. He quite frankly wasn't. And I think that there was another something else interesting that I got that didn't really make the story was Marcus Smart. And I asked Marcus, like, it seems like because I was at the Nets Celtics game in January, like I think was the last game that Kyrie played with the Nets. But I asked Marcus, like, how do you guys feel about Kyrie right now? And he basically called Kyrie a brother and that he is within the fabric of, you know, our team. So and it's it's just interesting, you know, his relationship, Kyrie's relationship with Boston and his relationship, you know, with the with, you know, the guys that are the guys in Boston now, and Tatum and Brown, and all of these guys, I think that they see him as a fabric of this. And I think that there's been some healing going on. I know not with the city of Boston and Kyrie necessarily, but with the people on that Celtics team, the players, I think that they see Kyrie in a different light now. Kyrie, and I don't know exactly why they see that now, but I think a lot of it has to be Kyrie has just been, at least internally, honest about his role and how it didn't work

out in Boston during that time. Well, I give him credit for that. The Hayward thing was a big piece of that season because he was the third best forward on that team and Stevens really gave him a lot of rope and a lot of leeway he was coming back off that terrible ankle injury and I think that undermined a lot of this too because he just wasn't one of their best

five guys but was getting played like it but I think that messed some stuff too we'll see what happens with this Jalen thing. It's funny. I talked about this. I hadn't even read your piece yet on Sunday's pod with Rosillo because it just felt like the tea leaves were floating a certain

way where I was like, I don't know if he's going to be on the team next year. He might be on the team for the next 12 years. But it does feel like we are at a fork in the road with this Jalen thing. And I think it's important because what him and Tatum have as a combo is so rare, not just for this generation of players, but even historically, like just two guys playing together for a long time and trying to win titles together

and having some losses and coming back and, you know, lifting each other up, which is what Jalen has been doing a lot this year. There's games when Tatum doesn't have it. And Jalen just has carried the team over and over again. That's why I think he has been one of the best 15 guys in the league. Maybe at least 20. And that's why the all NBA thing will be fascinating because you have Tatum and you have Giannis. They're going to be first team. You're going to have Butler and Markkinen and Randall, I think, are all in. And then that sixth forward spot is basically between Jalen Siakam and DeRozan. I think Jalen has the best case. His team's doing the best. He has the biggest load. And the two guys together, Tatum and Brown, every time they play anybody, they're like, Tatum and Brown are

coming to town tonight. So I do think he has a chance. Wait, before we go, give me 90 seconds on the dubs. You're in the Bay. I saw them in person last week and did my whole thing about it. I just don't think they have it. I don't think there is an on-off switch with this team. The naysayers would say,

well, just wait. We got to see Wiggins and Payton, but I don't think they have it. I think the league's gotten better and they've gotten worse. What do you see? I know you're talking about this on Real Worlds with Raja all the time, but what are you seeing? I don't, I don't think they have it. I think the league's gotten better and they've gotten worse. What do you see? I know you're talking about this on Real Worlds with Raj all the time, but what are you seeing?

It's interesting because last year I remember seeing them. I was at the game when the season opener against the Lakers last year, and you could just see a magic. The magic was back for that night. There's no magic this season. There's no good vibes. The one thing that i always said was last year the warriors got all the right wins now did they have the the the

best the best record no but they always beat the utahs right they beat the the they beat the celtics or they beat the celtics and they beat the nets in brooklyn you know and they and they had all the right wins this year they don't have the right wins and they year, they don't have the right wins. They can't win on the road. There's just too much bad juju going on. And they get their ass kicked in some of these games. They get their asses kicked. And there's no rhyme or reason for it. And here's another thing.

This will tell you the most you could say about a Warriors season. That game in Memphis really showed me a lot. Not the last game, but the game before where Draymond Green does this big rollout about how he says Dylan Brooks just doesn't have it. He goes in on Dylan Brooks the morning of the game, and then they get punched in the mouth.

Usually that doesn't happen. If Draymond says something or they usually have a locked-in focus and they systematically beat their opponent on the road, that was prime opportunity for the Warriors to have one of those signature wins and they got punched in the mouth. Not only they got punched in the mouth, Dylan Brooks was the one doing the punching in the mouth and that usually doesn't happen with the Warriors and I think that there's going to have to be, it's going to be an interesting summer. I think there's going to be a lot of changes

this summer and it's just going to be interesting how they look next season. That's my 100 and something seconds for you. Listen, the law of the NBA is you can be bullies if you can back it up. But we've also seen a lot of teams over the years that were kind of like washed up bullies still trying to be bullies, and it gets ugly

every time. They got a lot of washed up bully vibes right now, man. How many times are you going to tell us you got four rings? We rings we get it you know after you're getting your ass whooped like how many times are they gonna do that that that's been the story that it's they're definitely the washed uh big homie at the at the rec center right now telling about what they used to be this season that's been their whole season all year yeah it's like the old Sopranos. The lowest form of conversation is remember when. Nobody cares about the four rings. Honestly, though, that's why that punch

was so vital the beginning of the season. That's why it was so important because it messed up the whole rest of what the season was going to be. It was just an unwanted distraction and that set the tone for the rest of the season.

That's exactly what happened. Yeah, it's too bad. I agree with you. I think there's going to be a lot of changes. And, you know, Bob Myers, it seems like he's on his way out. These stories keep leaking about what's going to happen with him.

And it's like, I think we kind of have a feel for what's going to happen. Clay's on his last year making just an insane amount of money for what the production is. The pool contract hasn't even started yet. And we drafted it on the worst contracts draft last week on this podcast. And then Draymond, Draymond, people seem to think he's going to leave, but I don't know where he's getting $27 million next season. Draymond's pretty much just like over this season

after what happened in the preseason has just been rolling out the red carpet for him to leave. You know, he kind of just puts little nuggets out there even on his podcast or whatever he does. It seems like he's kind of,

you know, just resigned to the fact that he's about to dip. It's run its course. So we'll see, but it's going to be interesting. If he does leave next year, there's a lot of

teams that I kind of want him to go on I'm very intrigued about where he goes and just like I'm really intrigued to see what fuck you Draymond looks like at this age I'm excited or whether it's even possible the game I went to last week he didn't have the same lift anymore which and usually

the lift doesn't come back he was also in LA Bill he was also in LA Bill. He was also in LA. Oh, good point, Logan. See, this is your veteran experience here. I don't know what's going to happen with that team next year, but I guarantee half the guys will be different and they're going to probably blow it up in some

different ways. The shame of it is Steph's been, you know, he's looked like vintage Steph a lot of these nights and he just doesn't have the help. Okay, Logan Murdoch, great story. you know, he's, he's looked like vintage staff a lot of these nights and he just doesn't have the help. Um, okay. Logan Murdoch. Great story.

Good to see some old school journalism on the ringer. I enjoyed it. Um, and I'll see you next week in LA cause we're doing a rewatch of us together. I won't spoil the movie, but let's get it. See you soon, bud.

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Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. All right, here with Damon and Affleck together. This is the first time I've done pods and shows with both of you, but never together. I don't think we've ever done a podcast. You decided by ourselves. It just wasn't quite interesting the last

the last time yeah I guess we've the last time we did an interview together there weren't such a thing as podcasts yeah right

it's true but you guys are back like you formed this this company made a movie so I screened the movie and I was talking to Ben after and he was saying

he hit a point in his life where he just wanted to work with his friends, which I thought was a really interesting way to put it. What, what took you guys so long to realize like, wait a second, this guy's my brother. Why don't we just do more stuff together? It's an interesting question. You're talking about that. It's like, I mean, we had, we got, I think there's a couple of things. One is that, you know, you're an actor and you've just become very conditioned to the idea that it's very tenuous. It's kind of hand to mouth. The phone could stop bringing any time. So you get the opportunity. Somebody offers you a job. It's just almost

impossible to say no, especially if it's like some director you've always wanted to work with or whatever. So there was one. Well, plus you're scrapping for jobs for years. Right. So you're hungry. So then all of a sudden, so you don't ever want your, you become almost compulsive. You don't want to stop. And, and so Matt and I both started getting those kinds of opportunities at the same time. And we were kind of off like a shot, like just, you know, kind of trying to get while the getting was good, you know, with the idea that this mix could be gone tomorrow. And also there was definitely kind of, I think an idea that like, Hey, okay, you know, you guys, you know, this was successful, but you don't want to be the laurel and hardy thing you got to have your own thing too and you're you know all of this

various ideas about how you do this thing and and it was it didn't feel like oh you know i mean i i can see from the outside it's like they're not doing movies together but it was like we were hanging out and talking to show that i was showing them all my movies so in effect you're kind of working together you have a life, we had a company together. Yeah, we were working together. We just hadn't been in something. And then we did The Last Duel and wrote it. And the experience was so fun and rewarding.

And I realized having collaborated with other people in the interim period, you know, periodically, all kinds of ways, like, wow, we really have a great collaboration. I love working with this guy. and I love hanging out with him. And you get older and you have kids and you have a life and it's like, you got to find a reason. You don't get to just kind of hang with your buddies on the couch every day. Like you take that for granted and play video games.

There has to be a reason you got to leave the house and go do something and it's your job. And so also I think the, you know, my dad died at the end of 2017, not to get too macabre, but, but, you know, he was, he was very close to Ben and he, um, obviously very close to me. Um, and that was a definite perspective shift, right? Where you go like, this is, this isn't promised to any of us and it doesn't go on forever. And if we don't start like getting proactive about working together together we're not going to work together it's just going to be it's you know and and what a what an insane opportunity

to even have like to be able to work together at this stage of our lives and careers is fucking amazing so why not avail ourselves you know something that i don't like whatever isn't afforded as much like status or wrecking you know like with matt then something else you know something that i don't like whatever isn't afforded as much like status or wrecking you know like with matt then something else you know bigger and fancier with someone else unfortunately that's not the case i'm actually riding his coattails but just saying like that's the truth i thought like i that's the quality of it is the p is and it's jason and chris talker and vile like if you can work with great people who are good people too you know it's Jason and Chris Tucker and Vial. Like if you can work with great people who are good people too, you know, it's so much more rewarding personally and professionally.

And I mean, not to mention, if somebody is just your best friend, you have a shorthand with you, you just want to hang out with. I mean, the only thing I can imagine would be better is working with your kids. And I'm pretty sure my kids have ruled that out. You know, it's funny what you mentioned about

as you get older, because we're all around the same age when you get older these friends that you have that you just they're in your life day after day after day from college or high school or whatever and then you hit your 20s same thing then as you get older you're like i haven't seen him for a year yeah i haven't seen him for a year and a half and time fight you almost have to like proactively look for things. Really good friends that I love who I haven't seen for years. Yeah.

And then with texting and stuff, I feel like I stay in touch with my closest friends, but I don't talk to them. Like in the old days, you would just be like, oh, I got to call Matt. I haven't talked to Matt

in a while. You would talk for an hour. The whole like, like our age, people still have Facebook. You know what I mean? Like the people still on Facebook and like the Facebook,

I still can see my friends and stuff on Facebook. You sort of have the illusion of maintaining the relationship because you're aware of what's happening with them, but you're not aware of it because you've had that interpersonal communication. And I do think it's different. It's a way that there's an illusion that social media kind of fosters closeness when it also can foster a kind of separateness. Yeah, it's like semi-closeness. But there was a couple of movies that you almost did. Like there was some, what was that, Fritz Peterson, Mike Kekich movie.

You worked on that for a while, right? Yeah, we had. It wasn't like we were ruling it out. It just was, it's kind of a function of like, what's next, what's available, what's happening, you know? And we, like you say, we had a production company together that was a very different kind of company than this, which is a sort of production companies

are basically pass-through companies. Yeah. Where you have, you know, the studio gets the first option on your stuff and they give you money for your assistant and someone to kind of develop things, but they own the material versus an agnostic, independent, financed company

that can be a signatory with the unions and do all the things that the studios effectively do, in our case, with the exception of distribution and marketing. Which is what you just started, what was that, like a year and a half ago, two years ago? Yeah. With Art of Security. So how did that, what unfolded with that?

How did you even decide to do that? Was that like you're at dinner one night after three glasses of wine, just being like, eh. No, it came out just been like no can we do this it really came out of this kind of longer conversation we were having about what we want yeah in our lives like really a very sober conversation about what life what kind of life we want to build for the rest of the road here yeah and and so and like beat for me it like, I want to be able to have, I kind of can't just be going, you know, chasing tax rebates and be acting in a movie and, you know, in New Orleans or, and then in Texas and running around because I'm divorced and I

have my kids half the time and then cutting out a bunch of that time. And these years are just too important. So it meant that I was really open to the idea of like, I can be exclusive to a company and go into the office every day and help other people make their movies. And yeah, you know, periodically, if I, if it's for the company, I'll get to direct a movie and do this, but it's really like, I also wanted to have that lifestyle of stability and be home for dinner and know that my kids to know that I was going to be there, not just sort of, where's, you know, his dad's, you know, off and back all the time. So you guys have an office? We do. We do.

It's 9200 Sunset Boulevard. Actually, no. That's not the address. So you pick an office. Do you have an office together? Or is it like two separate offices? I live in New York now. So I'm in and out of LA.

It's an office with like three physical production executives and a head of post-production and visual effects and business affairs and lawyers and accountants and comptrollers. So how many projects do you guys want to do a year? Like how big does this get? Or is this like what's the fun in a business? A lot of things people just ambition is always scale, like they're synonymous. And with our business, part of what we want to try to do in terms of generating the ability to have the autonomy and the confidence of our partners that we're going to do something good, which is the only brand we can aspire to really, hey, make a movie with us, we'll do our best to really make it good,

is that it can't just be heaping movies on movies. We want to try to do movies we can focus on, but we also want to give opportunities to people who are friends of ours where, for example, we were talking with Steven Soderbergh about potentially working with him. And this is a guy where you have a very low lift. It's basically like, go ahead right you know what i mean and that's there's a real joy here's your finance you don't have to manage you know right right well cole hauser's out he's too famous now i'm kind of disturbed by the fact that my wife really likes yellowstone and the part of me thinks that she's really drawn to the romance between cole hauser and that um a woman who plays his wife who's excellent whose name me now, but I kind of feel like,

don't like it too much, Beth. Kathy, Kathy Riley, right? Who's British, by the way, which is amazing. She was, her first thing was Flayed. She was awesome. That was the first time I remember seeing her in Flayed. It was like, oh my God, who's this? I first saw her in this and I was like,

actually Jen showed me like a clip off of Instagram of a monologue she has in the car with the kid about the ways to become rich. And then she was like, oh, I love this story of these two. And I was like, wait a minute. With Cole? With Houser?

What do you love about it? He's great in the show. You've worked with like 30 plus years and you have all these people pass through your life it must be hilarious or fun to watch

when somebody belatedly becomes big like that that's the biggest TV show we have to tell you the truth I was always mystified that Cole wasn't

a giant movie star from the time we worked with him he was 16 and I'll never forget we were driving me too and we were driving

out of Bill Ricka or wherever we were back into boston me and you and that old cadillac the blue one that you had and we were like all right we like leaving set for like the first week driving into cambridge and uh and and we're like all right none of the guys are around from school all right leaving me and you out who's the fucking best actor here and both of us at the same time were like hauser yeah i mean just i mean he was he was raw talent raw talent just astonishing and like to take nothing away from like the rest of the cast all good actors one of them just won an oscar you know we've never won an act and brendan just won a fucking oscar so spectacular so great and i love that guy and we've always loved loved's just the sweetest soul and very deserving.

But that's that. So I don't say that to demean the other actors. There's great actors in that movie. It's just to say Anthony and Chris and Randall, like there's a ton of really good actors. It's just that from the time we saw him. He's in Good Will Hunting. I mean, we were like, this is the guy we want to. Cole saw him he was he's in goodwill hunting i mean we're like this is the guy we want to cole's great and he's fabulous on that i mean you think like he is

very convincing as that guy i mean i think america believes he is rip you know what i mean it's uh he's the perfect character the perfect character for him yeah for sure you know and there's also the converse which is um or the converse, this is a related phenomenon, which is guys that you knew when they were, you know, junior or mailroom or whatever, who are now like running things. Right. And you're like, wow, that's the big boss. That happens in sports too. Like, I remember Pam Abdi, right? And she's running a studio. And she was working with Danny DeVito when I did The Rainmaker 25 years ago. Pam and I were like kids together, like in our 20s.

Like met on that movie and like now she's running a studio. They're giving people our age that much authority. You know, it's kind of unsettling. Yeah, that happens in sports too, where somebody who is like, you know, the video manager person on a basketball and they become a GM. The Patriots, they just keep moving up.

I mean, Jimmy Patero, we've known for years and years and years and years. And I always like, first of all, by the way, I couldn't think of a better guy to do that job. And he's an amazing guy, but it does trip me out. Like Jimmy runs ESPN, like he's the boss of ESPN, you know what I mean? Which just seems like the coolest job in the world. And he's the nicest guy, but he's a guy, when you're 29 and you don't think to yourself,

this guy's going to run the giant sports network to which I aspire. Or Stuber or Sean or all these guys that we knew. Yeah, Sean Bailey, forever. When you guys weren't working together, did he ever make a movie that you were like, why the fuck didn't he ask me to be in that? He didn't ask me to be in the town.

He gave that part to Renner. Yeah, I was going to ask about that. What happened with that? He didn't ask me to do Argo, which I could have crushed the lead in that movie, but he took it for himself. Could have, yeah, but I would have made less money. I guess they didn't pay you to direct it. No, it was the way I was subsidizing that part of life. Yeah, but I would have made less money. I guess they didn't pay you to direct it.

No, it was the way I was subsidizing that part of life. Wait, go backwards. Because as you know, I love the town. So you see Jem, the Jem character, and you're like, what the fuck? No, actually, I'll tell you what happened. Let me tell you the truth. We couldn't afford Matt Damon. You know what I mean? By a country mile.

Matt Damon costs what the movie costs. You know what I mean? Is that country mile. That, Damon, costs what the movie costs. Is that true, Matt? Back then, yeah. I was in the middle of the Bourne run there. I was doing really well. But the thing about the town, actually, I remember getting that script. It had a different director. I read the script. I thought it was terrible. And I remember being on the phone with Patrick, who's been our agent for 30 years now. And we were just talking about something else like a few weeks later. And I was like, what's Ben up to?

Because I, for some reason, hadn't talked to Ben. And he goes, oh, Ben's going to do that movie, The Town. Because you were like in Germany doing the movie. Yeah, I was like, what the? No, I was like, no, he can't. What are you talking about? He goes, no, no, no, no. He's got a whole take on it.

I'm like, he's not doing it with it. He goes, no, no, no. He's going to direct it. And he's going to rewrite the entire thing. And I went, oh, he can't. What are you talking about? He goes, no, no, no, no. He's got a whole take on it. I'm like, he's not doing it with it. He goes, no, no, no. He's going to direct it. And he's going to rewrite the entire thing. And I went, oh, oh, OK. All right. But my gut reaction was like, this is a disaster. Don't let him do it.

Because the script that I'd read was so bad. But he did a comprehensive, I mean, just a page one rewrite on the thing. I knew you at that point. Because you had done Gone Baby Gone. And you were telling me you were doing that. It was set in Charlestown. Yeah. And I remember we talked about it and you had done in Gone Baby Gone,

you really cared about the authenticity of the accents and the people. I mean, there are people in that movie who probably never acted again. And I was like, if you're doing Charlestown- Everyone died shortly thereafter. Yeah, if you're doing Charlestown, you got to get Charlestown correct.

Which I think you did, but you really put some real thought into every piece of it. That was my kind of, I mean, I always felt like, look, I really wanted to direct. And I knew that somebody told me like 90% of the directors in the DGA who directed feature films only directed one. Now that may be an exaggeration, but i don't think it's that big an exaggeration that's like it's getting the second movie is the really hard thing because you have it's so competitive and it's such an amount of of kind of trust and commitment who the director is and that it's uh a big deal so and also by the way when it got me beyond like i wasn't going to get any more jobs as an actor. So this was really it.

And I thought like at that point, I. So you thought that slump was that bad that you were in? Like that was like, that's it. You will never be on a poster again. The extent to which you're kind of conditioned already to see your career as an actor, as tenuous and and subject to the. And fragile. Yeah. And what hits and what doesn't.

And and and you're not altogether wrong. And in that sense, it was a pretty, like, it's hard to make it as an unknown in this business. Very hard. It's harder to make it as a known that they don't like. It's like, no, no, you don't have to come in. We know your work. We just don't want you. And that's just the function of, because so many people make decisions based on i was talking to chris talk about this yesterday like just who's you know so many people suggest we should get so and so and you go oh why what do they do no they're in such and such will you see it no but i hear it it's like just what's cool and what's the thing what's current is there's a real kind of hunger for that and i wasn't cool i wasn't cool at all because, you know, I had made some movies that didn't work and I had kind of been, you know, in part, you know, my own sort of like lack of awareness of how sort of or even being willingness to reconsider like how I come off and viewing that as like inauthenticity in and of itself. And also just the fact that movies didn't work, um, meant that like, I was probably, you know, I was much more likely to have a career as a director in my opinion.

And also I thought, wouldn't that be nice to not have to be out in front of it, not have to be out there doing podcasts, no, to not have to like, to, you know, like promote it. Right. And so then you just think, well, okay, if, if it's all on the line here, like, I'm just gonna, I have no shame about just playing right to my strengths. Like, what do I do best? What's the best thing I have to bear here? And I'll focus on that. And in my opinion, that was like, okay, I love and respect actors. I'm going to center it on his performance, and I have the advantage of people not knowing who he is as well so that he can surprise the audience. And then I felt like I understood what it was like in my experience to grow up in Boston and to try to reproduce that authentically. And that was about it. Those are my strengths. Well, you needed to win the creative chops back from the public.

Yeah. And you had to have the sense that- Because you'd gone into that Us Weekly Netherland of just- And you can't overstate that Us Weekly Netherland. People won't be able to relate today because it's 20 years ago, but it was, I remember Patrick, I remember being in Prague and on the phone with Patrick because Ben was on the cover of Us every week. And I remember Ben saying to me, he goes, we talked and he was like, I'm in the worst place you can be. He goes, I'm selling, I can sell magazines and not movie tickets. It's the fucking worst place you can be. They don't pay you for selling magazines and you can't get a job. And you don't get to do what you love.

Yeah, exactly. And you're also in a patrick called the editor that woman remembering like stop begged her begged her please stop please just stop and she said man she said just i mean you can imagine like what how the editor of us weekly would respond you needed the brangelina love triangle to save you yeah basically that was what that was they just move on to that. And then they keep going. And what else happened was the internet, which is that was the, the appetite. It wasn't once a week. It was like, what's every 15 minutes and social media. I mean, this is further down there. It becomes so diffuse that in a weird way, it became more difficult to

be overexposed because there were so many outlets and they were like, you know, that back then, if there were three magazines and you were on the cover of all three every week, it just felt like this was the only person you saw and it was overwhelming and they're jamming people down their throats. Whereas now you kind of, you follow who you want to see. It's more bespoke. Well, there's way more influencers, like starting in 06, you have YouTube, so you have the YouTube people. Then you have the Instagram people and the TikTok people. Back in the early 2000s, we had athletes, movie stars, musicians, and TV actors. And that was it for our celebrities.

And that's what's interesting about, to me, like one of the things about this movie is that it's the beginning of the idea that a person is a brand. Like that would have been a strange thing to say in 1984, but what's your brand? My brand, what do you mean? Like, but now the brand, now everyone's a brand. You're quite literally kind of curating your brand on Instagram. You're selling your own coffee. Take for granted that like, what can I, what does my brand mean? And what, what products, you know, and if like I can, whether I'm opening boxes or I'm selling,

you know, what products, you know, the idea is to establish a brand, an association with the self, and then find like what ways of making money by means of associating that brand with a consumer good, can I profit from and sell to sell as a business? Instagram is a business in a lot of ways for a lot of people. And like without, you know, and now because that's just taken for granted. So people naturally pursue that. If you're old and, you know, one of those, like when I was a boy, people like we are, there's still a certain kind of, I find it kind of strange.

The idea that a person, because a brand is a fixed thing. It's a, in my view, it's like a product. I'm sure we all think about it with our kids, I'm sure. The phone and the selfies, all that stuff. You took kind of, you were in the opposite place in the, when he was going through all that stuff in the 2000s, you were, I don't know, you were, I don't want to say avoiding it, but you were making movies in different countries and you were way more mysterious, which seemed intentional. Because like when Good Will Hunting took off

and you had a couple of celebrity relationships and you were in that hole, then that was it. Nobody saw you again. Yeah, I mean, I think I got lucky on the one hand that I just fell in love with a woman who wasn't in the business, you know? Yeah. And so that just, you know,

when your partner is a celebrity, it's like, it doesn't double the exposure. It like, it's like quintuples it. Yeah. Yeah. It really, it feels exponential and crazy. And I remember living, you know, I lived down the street from Ben for, you know, and his first wife for years and going over there, there were always cars parked out front of his house, outside of my house ever i walked around that neighborhood i rode my mountain bike around i never had any problem nobody ever took my picture but like but ben had ben couldn't come out of his house without and a lot of the people were there for his what his for with for jen garner but it's like she's on these magazines you've never heard

of in the midwest where people want to know like how she parents and how, you know what I mean? And so it was like the interest in them as a, as an entity was just. Yeah. Some of it is, I think people assume naturally from outside that you have more control over it than you do. Like I often see people, uh, they'll look at like, you know, whoever's like young and cool and now in a relationship or something and they'll go, Oh, they're out there chasing it or flaunting it. And I think like, no, they're hiding actually. They're running away. They are desperately trying to avoid this. And one of the reasons why I think people always think I look sad or pissed off is because the

pictures that you see, it's self-selecting. You only see me at the times where I'm standing there with my kids and five guys are following me and shouting things, which brings a feeling out in you. That is not a happy feeling, which is leave me the fuck alone because it's invasive and inappropriate. Now. So then if those are the photos you see are actually not particularly like he looks sad.

Yeah. Like it's sad. What about the photos of you taking out the garbage or getting a Starbucks? There was a lot of those. I take it. There's been getting a Starbucks. I have no idea why that's interesting to anybody. It's not even true to me.

He's holding a Starbucks in his left hand. It's the most null fucking thing in the world. You know what I mean? I know I'm not that interesting because I'm in it taking out the trash. I don't know. I think something happens where the perception becomes the reality in terms of value where it's like, well, we've seen pictures of this person before. We've run them before. So this person is the one they want and they sell them, isn't something I ever craved or wanted or even liked like extra attention. I self-conscious, I don't like it. I'm not that comfortable. I prefer to, that's why I would be happy to just be directing movies. And I, and I really envy the thing I envy most about Matt is the, the extent to which he's

been able to, to avoid and been spared that kind of thing, because actually it's, it really is the thing of like, you know, spared is the, is the right term rather than avoid. Cause I mean, I remember watching Brad on oceans. Like you couldn't see a more normal dude from the Midwest, like dudes from Missouri. He's like super, super chill, just a really nice, normal guy. And the world would not let him be normal. Like the amount of like traveling around, like doing a press tour with Brad. I mean, I could, you know, George used to describe as people,

people would step on our faces to try to get to Brad. Like it was just like unbelievable, the amount of attention and incredible how little he courted it and how little he wanted it or tried. There was nothing that dude could do. Like there was no, and so I think,

you know, it's, it's, it's less about avoidance and more about like, you just get lucky. Like, I feel like I got lucky. And there's a kind of, there is a,

like, I always think like, Oh God, be careful what you wish for. Like there is a fantasy, right? We always say I'm going to be rich and famous. As if like,

you know, the two are synonymous in a way with like these both, these are the two things that will deliver happiness. Just as a sort of a saying, leaving aside what ambitions about wealth and what that means like you understand that people see money as this is going to provide my basic needs and then something you know always winning the lottery that'd be a fantasy i'd get a i pay for everything maybe my kids and i have a great car and you know buy the whatever the motorboat i always want or something um but the aspiration to be famous is really even less uh is even more sort of missing it because there's not a lot to be to recommend it yeah to

recommend that it makes you it makes life weird people are weird you can become weird because your echolocation your radar chance of becoming weird than not becoming weird. But it's such a mindfuck, right? Because the world doesn't treat you the same. So it's like, how do you not become weird? It's much harder. You have to be much more vigilant. Like I was very, we talked a lot about this, like really protecting the dynamics in your most crucial kind of close primary relationships, right? And not let it get infected by this weirdness, right? Because those are the things that are going to sustain you and keep you going, keep you sane, right? Real relationships with real people that require compromise and pushback and you don't always

get to be right because you can surround yourself with a bunch of superficial relations, a bunch of people jerk you off and tell you you're great. People making money from you and working for you. Yeah, tell you your shit don't stink. believe me there is that is tempting right who doesn't want to just be told they're fucking great all day long right am i a genius i thought yeah but but there's no kind of recipe to go out of your fucking mind it'll also ruin the thing probably that makes whatever it is that you're doing like authentic and resonant with people because you you start getting a false impression you know if everyone's laughing at your jokes and again i spent a lot of time with chris yesterday we went up to with uh uh to beaverton and chris

tucker and we were on the plane and uh talking about how like he was saying if you have those relationships and those friendships particularly as a comic it's it's it's poisonous because you think it's funny and you get out there on stage and all of a sudden you get corrected very quickly, you know, and you want to have people to tell you the truth. And I think it's actually, as a comic, there's a quicker means to get a correction, which is go into a club and say the joke

and see what happens versus, you know, it's harder. It takes a lot longer to get that feedback. Like this whole idea that everyone was telling me was great and we built this movie around and we spent a year constructing you know i wish somebody had said you know i'm not sure people are going to identify with this character or this doesn't seem that plausible or maybe most people aren't interested in the foibles of the like super rich or something you know what i mean like Like, and those things, you know, if you, it's hard enough to kind of maintain a sense of, cause that's to me, what movies are, what's going to

create engender empathy in people, what's going to connect with them and touch them. And a big part of that more than we think is about projection and reflecting and connecting with something about your own life in the audience. And if your life starts to be a total departure from the experiences that people in the audience are going to have, the audience is going to get smaller. It's also way harder to go through something when you're that public. Like we're seeing it right now at John Morant on Memphis. We're taping this like near the end of March, but you know, he's gone through some stuff. And the thing that I've heard just through the grapevine was like, this guy went from,

all of a sudden he's potentially the face of the league, like a little like what Jordan, the position he was in in the movie he made. He's in a really small city for the NBA. He's in Memphis. And he has the chance to be one of the biggest stars we have, you know? And some people handle that or process that differently. Makes a couple bad choices. And then that becomes

you're trending on twitter every day i think you're the biggest story in the week the real difference um in terms of social media and not just for for people who are high profile in some ways but it could be for anybody is that we can be defined by a choice a a day, a slip of the tongue, a long thing. And that you can carry with you forever. And every time you go apply for a job, you know, somebody Googles you or looks you up and they see this post, you do something you said in college or whatever it is. Like, that's what I've told my kids. Like, you know, this idea that you're so free to be filming yourself saying things, sharing this stuff is you're going to carry that with you forever. And that's a heavy thing to bear, especially in a, in a world that has become both, you

know, more sensitive and more tolerant and more censorious. Yeah. Life and death were two very realistic coexisting possibilities in my life. I didn't even think I'd make it to like my 16th birthday, to be honest. I grew up being scared of who I was. Any one of us at any time can be affected by mental health and addictions. Just taking that first step makes a big difference. It's the hardest step.

But CAMH was there from the beginning. Everyone deserves better mental health care. To hear more stories of recovery, visit camh.ca. agony and ecstasy and when the buzzer sounds you deserve a coke zero sugar the one with irresistible taste and zero sugar win or lose coke zero sugar is the most refreshing way to end the game coke zero sugar best coke ever learn more at coca-cola.ca would you let your kids act i mean if they if look we were told explicitly and in every single yeah yeah literally told not to do it by everybody including our parents i mean including by each other's

parents yeah his mom told me not to do it you know what i mean she's like oh you guys are smart why don't you know good yeah she was like she's like be a doctor or a lawyer like why don't you do it? She's like, be a doctor or a lawyer. Like, why don't you go, you know? And we were like, no, we really want to do this. Like, so I do think that, that if, if you're really meant to do it, it doesn't matter what anybody says. And if I have a kid like that, I hope that my kids find something that they're that passionate about. I mean, one of my kids likes to do theater, which I think is fabulous. I mean, I think our experience in high school, in our theater program was one of the most formative and meaningful of our lives.

And I still think often of our teacher, Jerry Specka, and how much a difference he made in our lives. And also people who didn't go on to do theater, but who just learned a lot about kind of life and work and values and how you work with others. And, uh, and so I'm like, I see my, my child doing theater now as an eighth grade, doing the kind of middle school stuff, starting to look at, maybe I'll do high school plays. I think that's wonderful. That's spectacular. That can be a great experience. Um, I'm not sure that you want to, I, I, I would not want or wish fame or attention or that kind of thing that comes with the other kind of acting potentially on a person that young.

It's hard enough. And I think when you're younger, it's even more difficult. Well, there's a, you know, my brother always had this theory that I really, I think is true, which is that you retard kind of socially and emotionally at the moment you become famous and you stop growing you stop growing you stop and i think that's true kind of going back to what i was saying before because everybody's your subjective experience changes entirely yeah it's never the same like you you your experience of the world and and that's the mind you go the world isn't different but it's totally different for me. It's like my code in the matrix got rewritten, but just mine.

Right. And so that what can really happen is it kind of stunts your growth and development because nobody's, because Ben says like the echolocating you're doing, what's coming back to you is so fucking weird that it's, it's, it's kind of, it of it's it's it's stunting you basically which is why i think one of the best things that ever happened to me really was to get really cold in like 2003 or 4 and all of a sudden realize i'm not that funny but maybe i'm not all that interested you know i mean like there are people aren't laughing at my jokes as much and aren't a lot of people all of a sudden aren't calling me back and realizing really a blessing at the opportunity to get a break in there and realize who my friends were

and realize what these relationships professionally were, what they weren't. And to understand and accept them on those terms, but not to have any illusions. You have friends who love you and care about you for life or even for a period of time based on a mutual affection, empathy, and love. And then you have people who want to build relationships. And relationships are a means through which to kind of advance their careers. And that's one of the things they teach you, right? Like make relationships, get out there, get to know people, but those aren't friends. And they're not people that you should ever expect to rely on to like be there for you or care about you

if you're not a relationship that represents a means of advancement for them. And also it gave me a humility. That's a tough lesson to learn though. It hurts. Yeah, I've been through some of that too, where it's like especially when i left espn and it was interesting to see some of some of the things shift where it's

like oh i thought you were on my side like i guess we were just like we want to think like it's because of of who i am or i have people they like to get along with them and you just think, and it's, uh, it was very telling. And, and it also, I found like when things picked up, like it was really useful to Patrick was really good about this and people. And I just, I remember self-consciously going like, I don't want to hold any grudges or get back at anybody or now, but you didn't, it was like, I remember Patrick telling me we're going to welcome back all our old friends. And that was the best advice. Is that what he said?

Of course, I was like, well, why not? And he said, no, I think we're just going to welcome back all our old friends. Just hold your head high. Because you know what it is. And what else? It told me a lot about him. This is a guy who stayed working really hard for me. His career kept going

up and things kept getting better for him and he became more and more senior but our relationship didn't change there's a great story about him and patrick that was one of my favorites that um after you know gilly came out you know ben had a series of movies that didn't work and they went to a screening of uh of surviving surviving christmas and they're on like the lot at dream works and ben's like okay this is the one in the chamber i have and it's bad and this is gonna this is gonna come out in three months and it's gonna be another wave of it's gonna be the you're on the other team and larry hits the three but patrick um sat him down outside and the lot and dreams were sat on sat down on some steps and goes okay this is it like this is the bottom of the mountain we're here right now

this is this is the fucking this is as low as it gets professionally can't get any lower step by step i'm we're walking together back up to the top of the mountain and And so years later when he won best picture, which is like, I mean, that's the, that's the absolute pinnacle in our business, right? Yeah. He reminded Patrick of that story at the after party, put the Oscar in front of him and he told him that and he started to cry and he told Patrick that story. And Patrick called me, I was, I was in New York and Patrick called me the next day and told me that and brought me to, I was like, it was the most beautiful story, but that's Patrick too. You know what I mean? That's the kind of person that- Well, it's when you find out who your friends are because you find the people who are like, well,

okay, you're not helping my career. You're not successful. You're actually probably an albatross, but like, I care about you and I'm going to stand by you. And that there's something so fundamentally moving about that, about our need to have people who will have a kind of unconditional love and affection for us and be with us through thick and thin. I remember the first time you and I did a podcast, Matt, we were talking about when he hit the cold streak and how mad you were that people were comparing the two of you and like, look at Matt, this is like, that's the good way and this is the bad way. And you were passionate mad about it and i don't think you had really talked about that before and of course then that became you know the stories for the next couple days from the podcast but it was really

hard to watch your best friend be so misunderstood yeah you know i knew i knew i was in a unique position to know how talented ben was right because i'd written you know we wrote our first movie together we grew up together i did fucking high school theater with the guy like i know everything about him as a talent and so to watch like your friend get fucking dunked on right and be and be like humiliated really like they were the coverage was so mean right mean and mean to Jennifer to J-Lo at the time

I mean just fucking awful right and I was just like it felt abusive and and also really deeply misunderstood fundamentally misunderstood

so when he when he became this great you know director and everybody kind of welcomed him back you know

the press too right like these like incredibly fickle non-friends, right? Welcome, welcomed him back, you know, at least it felt like, all right, everything's right with the force again. Like now people, at least people understand how great this dude is and you know i it just i was so angry on his behalf for years um you know just this way like people would say oh ben and like you know like a subtle eye roll or something let's go fucking roll your you've you know who are you like you motherfucker like a part of it's like you be we as a culture like we it's sort of like really it's just a big high school you know what i mean it becomes like who's in's in, who's out, who are the people, who do we like? Are we like them now? You know what I mean? Without any, are they in, they're out. And there's some of that, you know, so that

it builds its own momentum, both positive and negative. So it's become the person about whom it's appropriate to make the joke about them being talentless. They probably don't really have any general opinion about like what real talent is or pay enough attention to right so like i really think about what constitutes talent and film make you know it's more for for the people like writing the quip you know it's it's it's a momentary kind of glib thing and it becomes like oh i can think of other people who have gone through that who are people who it's like just becomes okay to make fun of it. Well, like not like so and so. And you think like and I obviously having had this been through this. And by the way, I don't I don't like I don't shirk any of my own responsibility. I could there's I'm sure there's choices I could have made that were better, that were smarter.

But it also was not it also definitely was a thing where it becomes, you become okay to kind of pick on. And there is a dynamic of that, which I can see now in the media totally apart from. There are people about whom it becomes okay. And there's an increasing culture now actually of kind of snarkiness and the sort of reward of that. And the retweeting is really, if you say something really funny and nasty you get retweeted and there's a like an almost a cultural sport of who can be kind of the most uh snarky about about stuff it's not all of culture but that that current is present and maybe it's part of human nature and it's certainly no fun to be on the downside of that our guy brady's in this right now it feels like like the the last i don't know six seven months he had where it felt like he was in the top of the world forever.

And now it's like, and it's different for him because when you're done with football, you're done with football. You guys can act or director, you know, movies can go on forever for him. I think when you, when you're the best at what you do and now it's over,

it's like, well, okay. So yeah. And I don't even, honestly, I really do try to avoid. I mean, actually I didn't try to,

but I'm just not all that interested in the gossipy stuff. It's just depressing me. So like, I just love Tom. And I don't think I would even click on something that was like negative about the guy. So I can genuinely tell you, like, I believe you. And I don't even know what it is people are saying, but I do know that it's there is also this

of the british called like the tall poppy syndrome like it's fun to watch it grow and then it's fun to cut it down you know um we like just that's what drama is that's what storytelling is it's like right we know it was fun it was the six superbowls that was really fun that was fun enjoyed that part yeah when when you guys together, how long did you live together? Who was in charge of- That was forever. Who was in charge of the bills? Years and years.

Who- We split them. We split the bills. But somebody's, when people live together, somebody's like the alpha dog with stuff. Somebody's worried about- I'm not saying alpha dog.

If you're the one who's like, they're turning off our electricity. We have to pay this. We were actually- Who's cleaning the toilet? Who's in charge? We had been so used to having a shared bank account from high school that I remember- You had a shared bank account in high school?

Yeah, yeah. We had a Baybanks account that we shared, which we used- I still have the checkbook. I found the checkbook. Did you really? Just put that on eBay. I wonder if it will- Is Baybanks-

No, Baybanks isn't there anymore. Probably not. But it was always like, as long as one of us it was always like as long as one of us had a job as long as one of us had money we knew that the power wasn't going to get shut off you know what i mean and so i remember coming after doing geronimo it was like i i was like fuck i probably had 35 grand or something in the bank and i was like you know in my checking account it was like we're good like we got we got this we're good for a year. We're good for a year. I think that attitude really helped us

in ways we couldn't anticipate, which was I see other people get kind of falsely wrapped up in the ideas in businesses that are very competitive. Like this person, you know, in front of me, has to be knocked down for me to sort of step up one rung. It's like zero sum game.

Yeah, right. Whereas Matt and I always kind of felt like we were in it together. We're like, yeah, I want to get the part. I want you to get the part we're it's share it's collaborative and and so you don't we didn't develop the sense which i think can happen because you might be the only actor you know and you're starting to audition you're going out there and everybody feels like competition and you didn't get it someone else got it and whereas we kind of have the school of like hey if we do something you that's interesting enough, then there'll be room for us too. And this is why I can honestly say

I've even at the times where, where the disparity between the points in our careers was really, uh, it's extreme, you know, I never envy Matt that I always rooted for that one of that. I certainly wanted for myself and didn't, and wanted to be regarded and respected in a, in a way that was fair and honest. But, uh, and I, I, there are things I envy Matt. He had a great, Matt's dad is a, like I was a spectacular guy who I loved enormously and a great relationship and I envied that, but I, I did think, wow, that's, that's great. You know, I, where the line is between I want that or something. It's, that wasn't like i coveted it but i i loved it respected and i i would love i do envy in an ongoing way matt's um ability to move a little bit more unmolested through the world without the sort of particularly kind of toxic

people who um run around taking pictures like mostly for the sake of, of my kids. But I always, I never, I was never, I wasn't kind of baffled by the whole, it's not enough that I should succeed, but my friends should fail. It's funny though. People don't realize how close you guys were, even though they know you're like aligned in a lot of ways. And these guys were buddies and they wrote this movie, but I don't think people realize like the actual best friend, like share. I don't even have a friend that i would have

shared a checking account with that's unusual yeah well we had this shared a nice dream weird well it was unusual but it was also like we we needed the money for for auditions for trips to new york so that's what the money was for it was like you were allowed to go to new york with the money you could go to the camera we were allowed to take out 10 bucks and get quarters and go to a thousand and one and play video games that was another use of the money we were allowed. And and eventually, you know, we were allowed to try to buy beer like, you know, which never fucking worked. That's how we went broke. But like, you know, that it was a we it's a weird thing in retrospect. Like we've reflected on that. Like we're going to help each other and be here for each other. And it's hard enough.

And let's try to do this together. I mean, can you imagine how happy I was when that Bourne movie worked? Boy, the account. I was like, Hey, look, you're not going to be alone. I'm not going to be alone. We're not going to see each other. Like be, let's go out there and like do this together. And it wasn't, we, we also had that spirit you know like i mean certainly

when we were out in la and started like i did you know reindeer games and got my first big paycheck good movie i'm in on reindeer games thank you um no i had like eight guys from boston living one guy was living in a closet you know what i mean literally literally swear to god his mattress was in a closet these are like cambridge guys, all the guys we grew up with. And I would come in, because I didn't have a house. I would come in off the road with my duffel bag, and I'd get a room at Ben's house. I'd be off the road for a month, and I'd just move in.

So when you guys made it, all these friends you had from Massachusetts, they're just coming. Yeah, because that was like the best thing in the world. Like to be able to have it and be with our friends and hang out. And we had a great time, you know, and it was, these are the people that we love. They're our friends. We want to be around and you're in your twenties. Those are the relationships you're in, unless you've gotten married. That's also a really fun decade for that to happen. Cause I, I think is, you know, when we do the rewatchables pod, those 90s movies,

there's just so many good scripts and so much talent and so many directors. It felt like such an abundance. Like you'd need these scripts. It was just one after another. So many people trying to make indie films

or people trying to break into that world. I would think that would be so much harder. Spike Lee, Clinton, you know, those people you can make,

you know, She's Gotta Have It or Slack or Rick Linklater, you know, or Clarence. We wrote the or Rick Linklater, you know, our clue. We wrote the Robin Williams part. We called it the Harvey Keitel part. Because we knew that that movie got funded because Harvey said he'd do it. And once Keitel was on, they were like, OK, cool.

We got a million bucks or so. The story. So we literally had this role, you know, in the you know, it was called his name was Robert for a long time because we thought we would want Robert De Niro if we could get him. And then we changed it to Sean. Robert. And it was like, but that was. Every time we got a job, we'd think like, maybe this is, and I remember there was one

actor that Matt went to work with and we had really high hopes. And I, and I called him on location, like, of course, like the next day. And I was like, so how's it going? I don't think he's going to do our yeah it was i think property wall no what oh oh yeah yeah yeah yeah that's right that's right you have to tell me after all right all right for sure what's the maddest you guys have ever been at each other have you ever been has there ever been like a real i can't i'm so mad at ben right now blah blah blah or anything like that or have you always been has there ever been like a real i can't i'm so mad at ben right now blah blah blah or anything like that or have you always been aligned nothing nothing that is

appropriate for a podcast because it wouldn't be like oh i'm so mad you know like i'm like i'm mad you didn't take out the trash you know it's like but uh although that matt stood i do remember one time me and casey in somerville just like, let's see how long he can go. So that's kind of a pig? Matt, we were like, we're just going to give it to, we're going to just wait and not pick anything up. Three days later, we came home. Matt was playing video games surrounded by old sushi boxes.

Just like, okay, you waited us out. You got it, you win. That's so great. You never had, there was never like the same woman or same girl in high school or anything like that where we you know we did pretty well i mean i think uh i remember matt i remember one time matt we were having a snowball fight and matt like threw a snowball like it was close and i turned around and hit me in the face and i remember a burst of rage and chasing him down the street i didn't quite catch him as i remember i fell again like that i was mad i wish the snowball you didn't even

remember the snowball i don't even remember that i remember you remember you threw an acorn and on school ties and accidentally hit me in the eye and i had to go to the hospital i do remember that we were just we were just walking across the quad like all the guys and chucking acorns at each other and he threw one at like randall battenkoff and randall ducked and it like hit me in the eye i literally had to go fast and i still don't have complete control over my body or a real accurate sense of how long my limbs are but then i really didn't so i i think i could be kind of annoying to be around this is the guy where we spill the drink at the table and you know like because I make some gestures. He was like 5'2 and then

the next like month he was 6'3. Like Dennis Rodman. Yeah. I was 5'2 and then at the beginning of my sophomore year in the end I was 6'2 or 6'3. Jesus. Were you in the shower scene in school ties? Were you part of that scene? When Matt was naked

for like three days in the shower? I was made to strip and dance around topless. Not made to. No, I did have a topless scene in the movie that was, but it wasn't the, I didn't.

It wasn't the shower scene. It was the. How many days were you naked in that scene? It was a long scene. I think it was probably two days of shooting. Jesus.

I mean, it was like there was a whole monologue. It felt long, but it was short. That's crazy. Upper Canada College inspires boys from senior kindergarten to year 12 to find their passions

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Yeah, be safe. Because what you do, others will do too. Others will do it too. So don't take shortcuts across tracks. Don't do that. In fact, just don't walk on tracks at all. Not at all. Trains move quietly, so you won't hear them coming.

You won't hear them coming. See, safe riding sets an example. Yeah, an example for me. Because safety is learned. It's learned. Okay, give it up. Give what up? Really?

Really, really. This message is brought to you by Metrolinks. Let's talk about this movie. So, other than putting Matt in a fat suit, what were your goals? My goals were, I mean, there's so many things about this movie that were interesting. One, the movie itself being about how important and meaningful it was and companies started to really recognize the contribution, not just of these athletes, but their identity, what they brought to it and to really value them, or at least to begin to value them in a way that was appropriate and commensurate with what the value they were creating, their cultural footprint, their impact. Secondly, that it was the sort of nascent stage of this kind of identity brand evolution. And this was the beginning of the time when companies started having beliefs.

Like, we're going to have rules. We're going to have ethos. It wasn't just punch a clock, we'll pay your check. That's what you believe in. It was, hey, no, this means something, which is now ubiquitous, right? The Google, you know, these campus Apple, it's all very sort of, you know, magical. And, you know, it's all got some sort of deeper, it's supposed, your company's supposed to mean something. You It's a mission statement as a company now. That wasn't a thing people took for granted. And then really the story of, it paralleled the values that we wanted to sort of infuse into,

speaking of values, at least there was the business practice of this company, which was to do exactly that. The best technicians, artists, craftsmen, writers, actors, directors. Yeah, like the shoe guy in the basement, just like making the world go round. Yeah, exactly.

That's what Artists' Equity wanted to be and do. And then, you know, it was for me, it was, I mean, look, just having a chance to do something with Matt, I really looked forward to it. It was just so fun and joyful. And I loved that. And it was like we talked about, like we should be working together, but the movie actually started to mean something to me or mean a lot more. And I realized I needed other contributors and other voices and help. When I talked to Michael, who was really generous enough to sit down with me briefly for an afternoon.

Because I wasn't going to make this movie without saying, like, is this okay with you? You know, and asking for his respect. And his, you know, it's not like his authorship or we couldn't pay him his rights. Like he has, it's not a movie he branded and I don't want to pretend that, give it that patina because that has value

and that's Michael's value. But what I did want to say was, you know, like I respect you enormously and if you don't want this to happen, I will absolutely not do it. And then you played poker and you figured it out. And be like, whoever wins this hand. Then I would have lost for sure.

Be what is, what's important to you. and the thing that stood out to me said like hey george raveling is meaningful to me he was a big he was a reason why i ended up at nike uh you know he mentioned uh howard white and how meaningful howard was to him this is a chris howard who then gave me he gave me like these two amazing gifts both saying telling me me about Howard and the opportunity to work with Chris Tucker, because I found that role, which we sent to Chris and said, I don't know what the role is. I need your help to make it. Come work with us and write it and build it. And he worked with Howard. So we had, we really use a collaboration of multiple contributors and kind of said the same thing to Viola, you know, cause Michael said, I said, who do you want? And he was, he said, Viola Davis has to be my mother.

I was like, she has two lines. The joke we have is like, that's like saying you want Michael Jordan for your basketball team. You know what I mean? He's like, oh, no shit. You don't want Jerry Seasting? How about Scott Wedman's available? And so it's like, okay. But I thought it was kind of typical of Michael, you know, like the figures. He wants the very best thing in the world. It's great. Terrific. We'll make it happen. But then I got to have the chance to like a lifelong dream of mine to, to, to have Viola be in a movie I directed. I just thought that would like mean something for me that I had made it kind of as a director, that that's an actor that important and talented was willing to trust me with their performance. And then it made incumbent on us to try to start to write a part that to

write a part that viola davis might say she would do yeah that was that's like the goodwill hunting lesson of you we have to write the robin williams part yeah that makes somebody like robin williams want to do it and the second part of that lesson I've learned afterwards to then say to Viola, look, she didn't do the movie because I asked. I was like, Michael would like you to play his mom.

And this is... That's pretty tough to turn down. The best, yeah. That's what I was hoping. And here's the best we can do. Come help us and use your voice and experience

and make this better. Because I don't know what Dolores Jordan's perspective exactly might have been or would have been and i mean obviously neither is viola they don't know one another but her contribution like uh she her voice her perspective is apt to have more in common and more of a connection and and it's that collaboration and multiple voices because it's i don't if you were to make a movie that's realistic and authentic and has people from all different parts of life, well, there is no one person

who can speak with authority in all those voices. It's necessarily a collaborative effort. And really, look, here's the secret to directing is just work with brilliant people. And that's what I did with the movie. It's one of the best movies I've ever made. And it's just a function of all these people who not only are brilliant,

Matt, Viola, Jason, spectacular, you know, Chris Messina, who's great, Matt Mayer, is also... I really love this movie, but I'm not... I'm just not going to shove the town aside. If it's okay. You can... If it's okay. The town's having a great run in the Simmons

house. I don't want to take any DVDs off the shelf. I like that you don't even cite the one he won best picture for. You're just like, you're straight to the town. The town and rounders and Good Will Hunting. You know how I feel. But I just, I didn't want you to kick the town aside. Rounders, I want to see.

This actually reminds me, I don't want to do this in the podcast. No, we're doing it. Rounders 2. It's a lot of whispers right now. I know. We've been talking about it for years. We're investigating whether or not we can do it. Were you jealous that you weren't in Rounders 1?

It was kind of before you started playing poker. I wasn't playing poker much then, and it was much smaller. It was a really small time then. It really was. Go down to get the camera and the door. You had 100 was a really small time. It really was. Go down to get the camera and the door. You had a hundred people in the main event. I know. So Koppelman and I

and Ed Norton played in it. Edward and I played in it. You played. You did well, didn't you? No, I made it to the afternoon, but I lost. I had Kings. I shoved and Doyle Brunson. It was unbelievable. It was like the greatest story. I lost to Doyle Brunson. If you were able to say now

that you finished whatever it was, 89th in the World Series of Poker, you would have to be a world-class player. I think if I'm not mistaken, I think there were 350 people the year that I played, something like that. Or 700. It might've been 700 way more now.

Oh, now it's 10,000. But I don't even know. I mean, certainly in the early days, there were less than 100. When Doyle was winning, the number of people who were paying $10,000 to enter a poker tournament was very small. Yeah. You had to think you had a chance of winning. But that was what?

98, 99? 99. Yeah. Yeah. 99. No, that's. That was 99. It was 90.

We shot it in 98. Yeah. It was late 98. That it came out. Don't ask why I know these things. That's right. We shot it in 98. Yeah. It was late 98. That it came out. Don't ask why I know these things. That's right. I've seen it a few times, man.

I, it's, and I, and you know, that movie was a bomb, you know, and the whole thing, like it was,

it was years later, I think in 2007, it went into the black and it was, the thing is it, it caught that it was preceded the poker boom, but as the poker boom happens, it becomes the movie. 350 the year. Yeah. I told you I knew it three 50.

And then the next year there were 700 people, I think. And then it just started. It was notable for having only five players reached the official final table. Why did that happen? Wait, so you play, maybe they just knocked each other out. So you played Sonny Baccaro. Howaro. How much research did you have to do? I think we did a 30 for 30 on him at one point. You did. I can't remember if I was still there or not.

I believe Alex Convery, the writer, was worked on that. Yeah. On the 30 for 30. And he wrote this script on spec just based on the experience of working on that show. I think that was the genesis of the movie. Because the crazy thing about him is

it's set up as like he basically, he doesn't save Nike, but he pushes Nike to a whole other level, but then eventually goes to compete against them. Yeah, well, he got fired. In a real way. Well, and what was really interesting talking to Sonny was because it all ended like, you know,

after our movie ends, it descends into like acrimony and between everybody, you know, but they all like Sonny was really, uh, particular about making sure he's, he really wanted to impress on me the fact that this was this really joyful time in all their lives. You know, he was, you know, you know, him and George Raveling were the greatest of friends and, and, and Phil, everybody, you know, Rob Strasser, all these people were, that really was the good old days for these guys. And, and, and, and interestingly enough, when Ben showed the movie to Phil, like he said the same thing, you know, because when we initially talked to him on

the phone, I said something about sending, he goes, Oh, I bet he has nice things to say, you know, like, cause, cause I think they've had so much public, there's been so much public feuding between Phil and Sonny. And I said, actually he was really,

uh, he, he specifically said that this was kind of the greatest time in his life and that he had, and, and, and that the feeling there was such kind of, uh,

this kind of like wonderful collaboration and teamwork between everybody there. Like it was this really, and Phil said that to Ben just yesterday. He said, these people were my friends. He goes like, this was a great time in our lives. So was Phil okay with the movie? Because it's hard, you watch this movie

and it's like, am I supposed to like film this movie? Because I like some pieces and not other pieces. I think it's supposed to be complicated. Yeah. And that's what I like. I didn't, it's not a, it's not a geography. It's not like we're not, I didn't, it's not a commercial. It's not trying to, you know, it's not propaganda.

It's like about, a lot of it's about things people didn't see coming and frailty and weakness and conflict and, but that that's actually part of the process of creating things often in retrospect we like we often sort of paint it in a a certain way with a more direct line and you know yes there feels complicated and and that's sort of what and i thought it was very impressive that and graceful of him to to recognize the affection the movie has for Nike and in particular for the spirit of that like time when she said these people these these are we were friends yeah I was just trying to make

something and you know I said to him hey look Phil I you know I when you see this movie I've had the experience of being a meme a time or two I'd like yeah I get it you know part of the exchange is you know you you know go out there and this is part of the deal. And I still didn't know, people like to make fun of the boss. As a storyteller, that's kind of like the person who's going to be, functions best as sort of the foil in a way. And by the way, somebody's got to say, hold on, or this isn't a good idea, or there's no drama. If at the beginning of the movie, everybody just says, yeah, we're doing it. Then the movie's kind of over. So, and part of what I thought was interesting about Phil was like, I really am a, I've read a lot about Buddhism myself and I find

myself very drawn to it and interested in it. And I also find that I'm really drawn to it. And yet, oftentimes I see my life running counter to the tenets of Buddhism, which is why I love that, like, does the Dalai Lama have a grape-colored porch line? Because it just speaks to all of our kind of hypocrisies and other nature, which none of us are who we want to be or claim to be or believe we are. And that, you know, you try, he was a guy who was, like Matt says, like selling shoes out of the back of his value. Like, you're a revolutionary, you're a renegade, you're a pirate. And now you're in charge of the ship. And that's interesting. So he's-

What is certainly a quirky movie character. Yeah, he should be. Good quirks that like make sense as you're watching a movie. Nobody wants to see a movie. Matt's, I mean, nobody wants to see a bunch of like perfect people. That's what I think the worst movies i've done and been involved in have all been governed by this idea that well you can't do that and our character can't do this and you know there are things that are outside the parameters of what's

acceptable and the parts i've had found the most rich and interesting were the ones were more character parts we were allowed to do things that you know and in some ways it's true. You can't have the audience reject your protagonist because then the drama fails. But I believe that they're more drawn to people who have real flaws, who have weaknesses, who struggle. And then because like we all feel we do, and then find some way of healing some of that or redeeming some of that or finding some purchase again in their life in some way and it's not any things feel false to the audience yeah you tell them like you know yeah it all works out or it was just like this person would never do that i just think that feels like bullshit and once you do that the movie's no good well this movie i had to like it for this movie to work for sure yeah i'm like basically the venn diagram of the

movie you didn't like it in fact it would have been bad you have no idea how close we were to calling you the first scene where with bateman where we're going through the i wanted to put you in the movie and matt was like fucking no we honestly poster consultant at the very we were gonna we wanted to put you in that scene but just but we thought people it might take people out of the movie if they're like oh fucking bill simmons of the movie. What the fuck is he doing there? We want Simmons to like it. And if he's in it, it's going to look like bullshit.

I should have been poster consultant. But you nailed every single poster. You didn't have jam session though. That would have been my one recommendation. You had all of them. You had the goofiest ones. Yeah, you didn't have Jam Session though. Dr. Duncan Stein and like- You had all of them. I just went for the goofiest ones. Because I love the contrast

with which they treated the art photography of the marathoners. Right. And that was where that company put a premium on that sort of, because they did sort of want to be evocative of the marathoners and the rain on the ground and those Bruce Jenner photographs.

The Capulon is just like they made art out of athletes. Paul Westfall with this wide shot of a portrait of a guy playing basketball. Except the basketball was late to the game with that. The same time they were doing art with the... It's like what

Chris Tucker and Howard Weiss did at the beginning. They're doing Picassos upstairs and the cartoons down here. It's like Bobby Jones is Secretary of Weiss at the beginning, they're doing Picassos upstairs and the cartoons down here that's like, Bobby Jones is Secretary of Defense and he's sitting on the desk. I love that. That's so good. It's so goofy. Gus and Ray Williams with their mom.

They're like, let's put this out. This is a new poster. Like, what were they thinking of? Dr. Duncan's design. And there's a lot of cocaine back then. But you see Jordan? And then you started doing Annie Leibovitz. Annie Leibovitz.

And the photo with the arms the wings was the best every Jordan poster and I had most of them in college but they were all like they were a whole different form of the art because all of a sudden you looked at Michael Jordan and thought like this is art in motion and they recognized that and the rest of the world did and it began to be treated that way and they weren't sort of asking you know guys to come out and be, I don't know, wear your robes and carry a shepherd's staff. I love that one though. I put on Instagram, I put a picture of my room in like sophomore year in college. And there were just a ton of Jordan posters. And a couple of people were like, thought you were a Boston fan I was like Jordan transcended

Boston it was like we were cool with Jordan even though we hated everybody else did you see him play live oh yeah I went to a bunch of those games my dad used to get us one game for Christmas we had one game a year through his company

and obviously we couldn't go to a Laker game because you couldn't have those tickets because they needed those for clients. But we- Because there was one of them. Yeah, exactly. The thing with- But we would choose Jordan. My brother and I would go see Jordan

every time he came to Boston. Now it would be Curry, I think. Because I saw Curry Wednesday night, and it was the same thing. It was just transcended any possibility or expectation you could have had. Got hot in the third quarter. It's interesting because Jordan then started the argument of everyone who comes after

who's great. The question is, do they rise? Well, you solved the argument in the movie. I don't want to spoil the title card at the end, but. I'm sure that'll be a subject of furious debate. Oh my God. That's going to be one of the talking points. Yeah.

The thing with Jordan, he got to that point when he came back after the baseball, when they were great. He just felt so famous. He almost felt too famous for even people to go see him at a game. He would walk in and people just stare at him like he was the most famous person in the world. He said he would put a suit on every time he left his hotel room because he goes, I'm going to walk through the lobby. He goes, there's going to be some kid who's going to see me.

And it's the only time in his life he's going to see Michael Jordan. He goes, I'm going to walk through the lobby. He goes, there's going to be some kid who's going to see me. And it's the only time in his life he's going to see Michael Jordan. He goes, and I got to look like Michael Jordan. Like the understanding of, we were laughing about this, the understanding of like an icon. Cause I was telling Ben that story and Ben goes, yeah, I, you know, you know, my wife, you know, she's like, she's always looks amazing. Every time she goes out of the house, like I'm getting pictures, taking me with my fucking Dunkin' Donuts coffee. And I go, yeah, but your wife's an icon and he goes she and i go yeah she's an icon like you're not like you and me are not icons like you have to you you only you know it if you are one right then you behave like one just because that's what you are that's the responsibility of it

and you feel it in your heart and you know it it's like the reason we don't have that impulse is because we're not icons. Well, one of the things, I mean, you don't overtly say this in the movie, but it's not hard to figure out. Like Nike and the NBA just catch each other at the absolute perfect time. Where you have, 84 was the first year

where they didn't tape delay the games. Yeah, yeah. Bird and Magic. And that was a really important finals for the league. I grew up loving the league when it was like the, you know, the black sheep of the sports scene. And they're tape delaying games. And, you know, guys are going to drug rehab for two months

and coming back and they're still kind of zonked out. And it was just, but we loved it. You know, Kareem, Kareem was the star of the league, but it wasn't like fun to go see Kareem play as great as he was. And then this whole era comes in. They make Kareem so good in 2K. And still, I don't like to use it. By the way, I guess if you look at his numbers relative to the other players in that time, his dominance would be...

He won six MVPs in 10 years. You cannot out-rebound him in that game. Here's a question that you might know the answer to, because Jack Nicholson told me this 20-something years ago. We were at some Golden Globes party, and we got in the corner talking about basketball. Yeah. And we were talking about who the greatest was.

And he said that Kareem, over the course of his career, right, however many years, I mean, unbelievably long, incredible career. Scoring record up until now. And he played in college. That when the ball went through him, so when he touched the ball on offense,

not necessarily took the shot, obviously, but if he touched the ball on offense, his team scored 75% of the time. Jesus. Whoa. That is a fucking

unbelievable statistic if it's true. 100% of the times he didn't shoot, right fucking unbelievable that would have to mean a hundred percent of the times he didn't shoot right because it's his field goal percentage i mean yeah like 50 high 50s he's the most automatic two points but when when jordan came in the league the weird thing about the nike piece which you hit in the movie a little bit, but I, like as a teenager living in the East Coast, like the Olympic team cemented it for me. And granted, we killed everybody

and the Russians didn't show up, but he was just so obviously a star after that. And you said you cut the scene, the Stu Inman scene you cut out. Yeah, we did cut that. Yeah. Because from breaks in the game.

It's too bad, by the way, and a shout out to Tom Papa, who was fucking great in this scene and yeah i blew it but what the problem became was what we realized when we looked at the film is sonny had to be sure right he had to have this moment where he of clarity where he goes this is our guy and and like i'm i'm betting everything on this guy and the problem with the scene as written with stew was I was going to Stu going like,

why didn't you draft him? Like, what are you seeing? Are you seeing anything? So it was, he was kind of unsure that way. So that, which was a mistake.

It was like the first or second day, because then you just feel like, Oh, everyone is already taking it for granted that this was a huge blunder that he wasn't drafted first. So everybody already knows. It makes sense why you would leave it out. Cause it builds more dramatic tension.

Yeah, it was the second Halberstam book, not the first one. But Bobby Knight is like basically telling for the listeners, telling the Portland GM, like, you have to draft this guy. It's like, we already have a guard. We have Clyde Drexler. Have you seen the video?

He says Michael Jordan's the best player who's ever played before. In 1984, he says it. He says it on that. He says it. Oops, I got to go to meet my wife. He says before Jordan is in the league, he goes, he says it. He says it on that. He says it. Oops, I got to go to meet my wife. He says before Jordan is in the league, he goes, he's the greatest.

I mean, it's unbelievable. It's on YouTube. Yeah, he explains why. And what he ends with is his competitive fire. Bobby Knight doesn't seem like. He identifies like the X-Fact. He breaks the whole thing down. And he doesn't seem like he was the nicest guy in the world.

But I saw that and I thought, wow, that guy really saw it and obviously understood basketball because he breaks down unequivocally why Michael Jordan is absolutely the best basketball player ever and he's never been in the NBA and he was right. Yeah. Alright. Movie's called Air.

You were about to say that about this movie. It's not even his favorite Ben Affleck movie. I love this movie. Congratulations, guys. his favorite Ben Affleck movie. I love this movie. Congratulations, guys. Good to see you. Thank you, man. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Logan Murdoch.

Thanks to Ben Affleck and Matt Damon. Thanks to Kyle Creighton and Steve Cerruti. And I will see you on this feed on Thursday. I don't know if the podcast would be as good as it was today, but I will see you on Thursday. On the wayside On the first side of the river I said I don't have to ever