The Bill Simmons Podcast - Miami’s Zombies Do It Again, Portland’s Dilemma, Ja’s Future, and Worst GM Jobs With Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: June 5, 2023

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss the Heat’s Game 2 road win over the Nuggets, Game 3 thoughts, where Jimmy Butler and Nikola Jokic rank among all-time players, and Pat Riley's legend continuing to grow (1:39), before discussing what the Trail Blazers' offseason should look like (46:55), Adam Silver's comments about the Ja Morant situation (55:16), drafting the worst GM jobs in the NBA, and more (1:06:51). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I put up a new rewatchables on Friday. Our schedule is a little out of whack in June, at least for this week and next week. And I don't know what to tell you. But we put up on Friday, Casino Royale. My favorite Bond movie, I think. Me and Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins, we broke it down.

We broke down the poker scenes, which have some flaws, but we dove into them face first. You know, we acknowledge it. I love watching people in tuxedos play poker. I had some ideas for a possible TV show about this, but you can listen to that podcast on the rewatchables. We're going to have another one either Wednesday or Friday this week.

Not sure of the timing yet. So on this podcast, we have one today. I think we're going to go Tuesday, Wednesday this week, and then Sunday is my guess. So stay tuned for that. Rosillo is coming up and we're going to talk about game two, Denver, Miami, and a whole bunch of other NBA stuff. Getting close to the draft, getting close to free agency,

getting close to at least one possible crazy trade. You just never know with the NBA. It's all next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, taping this. It is 7.5 Pacific time. Just watch game two of the 2023 NBA Finals. End of third quarter, Rusillo. Jokic was wreaking havoc. He was 83-75. And Mark Jackson said something like,

Jokic is taking over this game. And we go to commercial and I go down and get an iced coffee, come back up, and it's like a two-point game. And Miami is just making every shot. This is what they do over and over again. You cannot sleep on them. I'm going to start with this. I've never seen a run like this in basketball with a team that I didn't feel like was as talented

as the other teams are playing and over and over again can summon some sort of run, some sort of accuracy bender. The only thing I can compare it to in recent sports history is Flacco, that Baltimore Ravens year when he just left his body for four playoff games and just looked like the best quarterback in the world. And you go back and look at the stats and you're like, how did this happen with Joe Flacco? The Heat did it again. They almost shot 50% again from three today.

They're all tough shots. They're all off handoffs. They're all guys falling to the side. And they scored 36 points in the fourth quarter and flipped the game flipped the series and i did not bet against them in this game because why would you if you had to add it up to like how many nights they're getting nine they're getting nine and a half like they if they pull this off i don't know how there'd ever be another team in the conversation of like nba title winner was getting this many points collectively if you add them all up throughout the entire playoff run

going all the way back to milwaukee i mean boston they'd still be a 10 point dog and you were like okay so um i yeah you talked like the plus 350 plus 300 just single gamers they've had like eight or nine of those wins at this point. Yeah, if you added them all up over the course of a playoff run, I don't know who would have as many times as they begin points. I thought Denver was in trouble actually in the third quarter because it felt like the game was stuck for a really long time. It was stuck on the 60s. And you're watching it and you're going, okay.

And I don't know if Denver, when they got up 50-35, like that was a massive turnaround. were down 21 12 they were down 24 15 and then you look at it and you're like this is like a 28 to 6 run here by denver they go up 15 to go over right it felt like that and and i i honestly felt like denver just they they let themselves get pulled back into a game in perfect Miami fashion where Miami's like you know we're still hanging around we're still hanging around and then you going to get your coffee that was the Duncan Robinson show he had 10 points to game they were all right then and there Miami who you know I still think we look at the offense sometimes going will they have enough to carry him they had 29 points in the first eight minutes of the fourth quarter at Denver.

They were nine for their first 10 field goals in the fourth. They only missed five shots. Look at their shot chart. They only missed five, and that was towards the end when it was kind of over now. I really like how they play. It reminds me a little 2014 Spurs-ish, where just guys are moving in all different directions and over and over again,

they're just banking on the other team to fall asleep, which is what was happening to the Celtics over and over again. Michael Porter Jr., I would not send that one to the Basketball Hall of Fame, that Michael Porter Jr. game today on both ends. So they get five points offensively. Defensively, he just would get lost over and over again on those, you know, the heat just, they keep just sliding those guys.

You just look away for a second. All of a sudden that guy's sliding one way or two guys go with the guy who's cutting through and then the other guy slides back. And I don't know how it keeps working. We have a big sample size now at this point. They played five games against Milwaukee. They have five or six against the Knicks,

seven against Celtics, two now against the Nuggets. And still is working. The BAM just hand off stuff. And all these guards, they're all unafraid. And Caleb Martin had, I think, three points tonight. So he's cooled off. And his

mojo just got transferred to Gabe Vincent, to Duncan Robinson for a quarter. Lowry made some crazy 26-footer. They're always the team that they get fouled on the three because you stepped on their foot, but they never step on anyone's foot on a three. It's just, how about the play when Bam throws a terrible alley-oop in the last five minutes, hits the backboard, just comes right back to them.

Like this, at some point, you can't stop what God wants to happen. And it just seems like God is like, I like this heat team. Just, just, I'm just enjoying this. And it's very Flacco-esque to me. This is what the Flacco Ravens were like. It's like, how long can this keep going? Well, they just won the Superbowl. Right.

And then it was weird. Cause then you had to like, be like, is he good good and then he definitely wasn't and then he wasn't I remember Van Pelt and I got an argument about it on the air he was like are you going to finally admit he's good and I was like I don't really want to have to yeah I was like I didn't know he's going to turn into Joe Montana for a month I was like that's weird but you know that's that's four games that's one guy uh yeah this is two months right This is incredible. I actually think, you know, some of the threes are tough, but I think some of them are wide open too. And, you know, Denver had a stretch where it felt like they got a little annoyed defensively. Like,

okay, let's start closing out on these guys. And you noticed a difference. I think that was in the third quarter at some point, because I felt like Miami was stuck on 66 points forever. But everybody, again, that game got really stuck in the third quarter. I was like, God, this is taking for long, like really long. Nobody's scoring. This thing is really stale, and this is exactly what Miami wants. The crowd kind of wasn't into it. You had Denver making some weird mistakes,

even though I think against the zone, they get good catches initially. It felt like the two adjustments were don't let Jokic pass, let him shoot, okay, and then Kevin Love starting the game prevented them from getting caught in some of those awful mismatches with Aaron Gordon and having his size and ceiling deep at the rim and just getting these super easy catches because you have a smaller perimeter player going up against Gordon so I think the love thing was part of that and you know look I never think really anybody is going to get swept because I just think the mentality of the teams today and the players are like all right we got these guys the threes make

it hard three yeah you're right like I whenever anybody's like oh so you think it's a sweep and I'll be like shit I think I'll still think it's six games sometimes even if i don't think the teams are close but for miami to do this and you know we've seen look this is the first time denver's lost the home of the playoffs um you know we'll see what happens to them on the road it hasn't been a factor really at all they they closed out la they closed out phoenix in dominant fashion they didn't have a very good road record this year. So, you know, I've kind of put that concern to bed here, but just really impressed Miami.

Just, you know, I don't know what else to say. If you're Denver, what are you concerned about? I would say, number one, Porter and KCP, when they play like that, they almost don't have a chance. Like, they're going to make a big deal tomorrow on all the shows about how Jokic had only four assists and they, they turned him in a shooter, not a passer. I actually thought he should have more assists. Nobody was making shots except for green and Brown came in, but he wasn't on the floor for some of that stuff. Um, I thought Porter was just awful. And I think Malone is going to be

kicking himself when he watches this tape tomorrow because I personally I just think Bruce Brown when when when Porter doesn't have it I think you kind of know in the first quarter do you feel that way you've watched Porter even more than I have yeah but you know with him sometimes yeah but I'd say you don't do because there are games and you're right he stunk tonight and he'll have games where you're like oh my god and then he's getting lost on those those threes where you could like, oh my God. And then he's getting lost on those threes where you could see how pissed the other player would be. His teammate would be like, dude, what are you doing? But I have seen Porter have like two points going into the third quarter

and then he goes on like a 12-0 run. He did in the Lakers series once. I just thought they needed defense from that spot more. And I liked the way Bruce Brown was playing. And I actually think they needed defense from that spot more. And I liked the way Bruce Brown was playing. And I actually think they made a mistake not playing him over Porter down the stretch. So that was one thing. The other thing that I thought was interesting, because when I went to that Game 3 Lakers series, and they just weren't getting any calls, but they kept their composure.

And I was really impressed. It's like, oh, this is like a championship thing, right? They, they could get rattled. They could go the other way, but they, they're not, I thought that lost their composure night in the fourth quarter. Cause Miami is making shots. They were annoyed by that. They didn't get a couple of calls. The game got super frantic and chaotic, which is what Miami always does. And I, they seemed a little rattled to me. Like I didn't, I didn't love the offense they were running. And then as usual with Denver, they did this in the Minnesota game that they almost came back and scored where they could just score 12 points in two minutes and pull the,

and all of a sudden it's a one possession game again. But for the most part, I thought that fourth quarter was the worst quarter I've seen them play all season. Miami made some good shots, but Denver was also, I thought, a mess. So if you're coming out of that game, it's like, what could we have done differently? I don't know. Settle down a little bit, but also I think that Porter-Bruce Brown thing is going to be kind of an interesting crunch time call for them because I think Brown's better for them in some of these situations if Porter doesn't have it. I guess we'll find out. Yeah, Porter, he still only played 26 minutes, so you might be on to something

just because that's not a lot for this kind of game. And I do think they got really frustrated. It's kind of weird when you'll go, all right, which teams are the biggest complainers? I'm like, kind of all of them. Denver's on the low end of that

though, usually. Yeah, but Jokic will get pissy throughout a game, and he kind of gets away with it. Then I think Murray not getting the goaltend, and then there was another play where Butler flopped on a drive. It looked like there was contact from behind, and he kind of just fell down, and then he got the free throw, and that was just right after he'd hit the three because there was a stretch there with Jimmy Butler where I'm going like, Hey, is this guy's ankle like to the point where you can't rely on him? Cause now,

you know, he was like three for 13 at one point. Yeah, you're right. So I was like, man, I don't know if they can go to him and yet it didn't matter. That's what was scary. It's like, okay, so what happened? Oh, Miami went crazy in the fourth. Oh, what happened? Well, Jimmy Butler. Not really. He had the three. He had the and one.

He had some nice passes tonight, but he's had long stretches now in both of these games, and I don't know if it's the ankle where I'm like, I expect to notice you a little bit more. Yeah, it doesn't seem like he has his same kind of touch around the basket that he had in some of the earlier series. There was a couple of plays today where he just like was flinging five footers off the backboard, but he still, he can summon it for these little stretches. But I'd be interested to see if we find out, like we found out this weekend that Randall was hurt way worse than that Knicks series than they let on, right? He had arthroscopic surgery this weekend. It's like, oh shit, his ankle was that bad. I'll be interested to see how hurt Butler was. What I liked about what he did today, and I want to talk about him historically in the next segment. He still controlled the game. He wasn't shooting well, but I felt over and over again, he just gets in the paint. He kept doing that baseline drive

where he'd find shooters and he's always going downhill and downhill, downhill. And they don't really have a point guard. He's basically the point guard, but I thought he had a better game than the stats. If that made sense, even though he was a little sloppy around the rim, I just thought he, he kind of controlled the game and kept them around every time. It's looked like Denver was going to blow it out in double digits. They would just kind of crawl back and it'd be like six again. And they were just able to do that for two quarters until they made a run. Yeah. Look, his passing is great. He's as good as anybody, I think, kind of going with that behind the net hockey thing with the baseline where Steve Nash, Steve Nash, I always thought was like the best at it. And it really opened something up because you're just, you're so

comfortable. Yeah. But the other great advantage is like defenders still have to look at you because you're so close to the rim. Even if you know that you're probably not going to go and try to make a layup

like by coming inside and being in the front of it. So that means if the defenders are watching you, then it's kind of as long as your teammates get it and they cut

like he and Bam have that down perfectly. And it's actually really, really tough to deal with. So yeah, I'm with you. I thought his passing was good, but I guess I'm still expecting some of those moments where he could just put guys in the blender with drives like there's just nothing you can do with them and it might be the size of an aaron gordon or i feel like sometimes he has the ball and he's one-on-one

against him and he's like i don't i don't know if i'm gonna get a clean look at this and so he turns down some of the drives where I felt like there were drives that we were going to see from him earlier on. But I was watching him, and I do think something's wrong with the ankle. I really do. Yeah, I don't think he's...

It just seems like his touch is a little off, but it's not mattering with him going by people. When we talk about the mentally tough basketball teams, usually we use that phrase for football, right? Like mentally tough. Oh man, that team over and over again. Like the Belichick, the 0-3, 0-4 Pats were like that. Even though they won all those games in a row,

they had the win streak, they won the two Super Bowls in a row, but a lot of the games were close. A lot of them were like three-point games, seven-point games, but they just found a way to win these games. And I, some of these games, Miami's winning where I don't know how many wins they have at this point. So this is one plus. So they have 13 wins. And I would say those 13 wins, maybe 10 of them. I thought there were points in the, in each game where I thought they were, oh, they're done. They're going to lose. And something about, I don't know, the makeup, the guys they have. I know this is what everybody's been talking about the last couple of weeks, but it's really unusual for basketball when you don't have a superstar. Because usually the superstar is the one that gives everyone else the confidence,

but they don't really have a superstar, right? They just have a bunch of really good players who play well together. But man, it just feels like they think they're going to win. You even saw Bam after. He just had the chest out. He's like, I told you. He was yelling at somebody. This is going to be a tough one for Denver. I still think Denver's better, and I still think they're going to win the title.

But I thought this was one. You got to finish this one today. The worst case scenario would be is this has a little Dallas Miami 2006 game two, where they had the 10 point, 11 point lead member, and then Dirk brought Dallas back and it just kind of subtly flipped the series and then it just completely changed. That would be my fear if I was Denver, because I think they have a better team. Yeah, I mean, it's unfortunately the same conversation if you're a Heat fan, hearing us go like, hey, we think the other team's better, but it's okay.

Right, you're playing better. It doesn't matter who has more talent. Right. That Highsmith and Love and like at one possession, Zeller and Lowry were back-to-back buckets. And, you know, you're watching this play out and you're going, what is this? And they needed it, right? They needed it that whole time.

And I think one of the things I really liked, another thing I liked about Miami in this one was just how comfortable Bam is. Like, oh, okay, so this is how we're going to defend me. So I have time to make the right decisions. I'm not getting pressured into a situation where they're contesting out on me because they don't have to defend me like a shooter. But he's been great. Some of that two-man stuff he does, again, and some of the other passing, despite the one that almost broke the backboard, he's making some great plays and there was even a cut with duncan robinson where they ran something

where duncan robinson cuts and the guys were so freaked out to defend duncan robinson on the cut that they left i think vincent wide open for a three in the fourth quarter and then they ran it again and they were like oh like we can't do this. And it was really smart. I thought from Bam, because then it looked like he had Duncan Robinson on a cut, but I think Gordon was with him and Bam was like, just, just couldn't pull the trigger because he's thinking, okay, size wise, like, I don't even think so. You know, the read was there. He could have made it. It could have been turned over and you still would have been okay with it. I just thought he was making some awesome plays,

and it's kind of a comfortable spot for him because Jokic is not going to pressure into him. He's just not. Yeah, they were basically running the same play that Denver runs with that Murray-Jokic high screen, except Miami somehow in that fourth quarter figured out a way to bother that. I haven't seen anybody bother that all season. They had like this extended zone out there

and they were kind of leaving Jokic, you know, basically like making it so they couldn't do that little handoff play. So then they put Jokic like basically in the foul and like, okay, great. Then we'll take this. But then they figured out a way to at least bother that one too

and push the game into the corners where the Nuggets didn't really have anybody that was playing that well in the quarters. If Porter played well today at Denver, they wouldn't be able to do that at Denver 1, but they kind of stiffed that out. And Jokic ends up with 40, or 41, and 11 boards. He took 28 shots.

I just don't feel like he's... It reminds me of when the Spurs did this to Nash in 05. Like those guys just aren't happy when they're taking 28 shots. It's not the ideal Jokic game. He's not like, cool. I went 16 for 28. That's not what he wants. He wants, he wants 23 and 17 and 15.

And he wants everybody else to do well. His first shot, his, his first shot in game one was the loose ball with three seconds left in the quarter. That was his first shot. He had three field goal attempts at the half, and they were up 17. So you're right.

He's definitely saving stuff for the second half now. I think he learned a lesson in the Lakers series. Let's take a break, and I want to talk about Butler and Jokic. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. You know me. Let's take a break and I want to talk about Butler and Jokic. It's on Prime. All season long, watch Prime Monday Night Hockey deliver unreal plays, the biggest goals, can't miss moments. Matthews, McDavid, Crosby, the NHL's best. They're all on Prime.

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or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. All right, some big picture stuff. I had all this stuff prepared because I thought if the Nuggets won tonight,

they were becoming interesting historically because they were undefeated at home until tonight. That's a shorter list than I thought. If you go back really since the 80s, the 2017 Warriors were 9-0 at home, 96 Bulls 10-0, 87 Lakers 10-0, and the Celtics were 11-0, and that's it. I was thinking, man, if the Nuggets win this game and even win it convincingly, there's going to be a whole bunch of stuff that comes with that. Them being up 2-0, them being undefeated at home, them having a really transcendent player.

And I felt like Monday had the potential to be this whole, holy shit, or the Nugget, kind of a better version of what happened with the 2015 Warriors. Like, holy shit. Not only is this happening, but look at all these teams you can compare them to. And then of course they lose, which kind of puts it in perspective how amazing those other teams were. I told you a week ago or two weeks ago, I thought this was the best team I'd seen in person in five years. I still think they're going to win the series, but I, I, I just wouldn't bet against this Miami team anymore. Like for the people out there, the young gamblers, I just think they're a stay away officially. They're like the guy at the poker table. Who's just making all these weird bets. And you're like, man, that guy's how's that guy winning. And he just keeps winning at some point, you just got to put your hands up

and just watch it and wait for this to play out. Don't you feel that way? Like, how can anyone think this is going to stop at this point? It's been two months. Yeah, right. I mean, after tonight, I kind of gave up. I was like, all right, I guess it could happen. Like, I guess it could actually happen, even though I thought.

Because I was like, well, Boston's soft. They're a mess. They turn the ball over. They don't know what to do at the end for the coach yeah they've never seen a zone before apparently and then didn't adjust to it later on it's the same opponent they're probably gonna play zone again you guys know you still have to play them again right right so um yeah I mean if we want to go back in and think like I mean this is only one game you know in since when Phoenix like even when they were losing against Phoenix, whatever,

they swept LA. So we're on like three or four weeks of not seeing anything wrong with them. Even in Minnesota, you're right. The one game they lost, they came back and got that to overtime. And even this game, they came within, you know, Murray had a shot to tie the game. Would you call timeout? Because I was surprised they didn't.

And it does feel like we've entered this new era of trust my players, which I'm fine with, but I didn't think there was enough time this time. So by the time they got over half court, there was like seven seconds left. I would rather have the timeout and be able to move into a play faster so I have a chance to get a rebound, something like that.

It was an okay shot. It wasn't great. I thought the shot was okay, so I didn't have a huge timeout. It was like a B-. But, I mean, when you're doing all the prep that you can't use unless they win it like in five games, I guess you could use it. Maybe you can use it six games, not seven.

Like, would you go, hey, they only had 53 wins, or oh, they were under 500, or they were actually kind of average on defense, or any of those things that you were kind of average on defense or you know like any of those things that you were kind of i don't know how you watched them this year and didn't at least go i wonder if any of this is going to come back to burn them and it didn't the last month was really concerning and we just couldn't tell why they took their feet off the pedal but like

that you saw the stats about game one how many open shots miami missed and then today they made a lot of open shots. If I'm worried if I'm a Denver fan or if I have money on Denver, all the open shots in the two games would be what worries me because we didn't see that get fixed basically for eight quarters. Yeah.

I mean, Miami, this isn't supposed to work offensively. This isn't supposed to be something where you're scoring 40 on the road in a closeout quarter going into it down. When I look at their profile, I'd be like, okay, maybe they held the other team to 16 and they scored 22, or maybe they hit a bunch of threes, which is certainly what they did here tonight.

But it's not even a Jimmy Butler takeover game, like the closing quarters against Boston in games one one or two or what he did in milwaukee we were wondering if they were going to waive his waiting period to get into the hall of fame i mean that was the kind of shit he was doing against the puck so to not have that be part of it and still be that dominant you know i i i'm i'm with Like, none of this is a surprise about how we picked Denver and how we feel about them in comparison to it. But it feels a bit like a wake-up call here.

But I also wouldn't be shocked if Denver smashes them in game three. But, you know. Yeah, and I'm not sure how much, I'm not sure how much home court matters for Miami. They're the all-time home court, might not matter in any playoff game they play. So Denver could go in there and lay the smack down. The three-point shooting, if they are able

to do this for three more playoff wins, just these games of, I don't know how many games at this point where they've been 18 for 35 from three, 16 for 32, 17 for 31. It's it's, this was a team that shot 34% during the season and didn't have hero. Now, the funny thing is if they brought hero back and that screwed them up and send them into a tailspin. So let's do a, I want to do Butler and I want to do Jokic historically. Okay. Because, um, I was thinking pyramid. I like to make my pyramid list every year in June

as the finals are going on and try to think what's at stake for the best guys. And Jimmy's got the four third teams. I think he's got a second team. He led them to the finals in 2020 when head-to-head with LeBron. Almost made the finals last year. Almost beat Kawhi and the Raptors in that round, too.

So he's had some good playoff runs. Now he's got this one. It feels like he's in the 100 now for me. Like, I might have moved some C charts around, snuck them in there. Really? Yeah. Who's out?

I don't even know. I mean, I have some bad news for, uh, for big shot Rob. He's finally been bounced. He was 84 when I wrote my book, but that was 13 years ago. But I think, I think he's finally lost. So I had, I had Jimmy in the, basically somewhere in the mid nineties, depending on where this goes. Hey, Jimmy Butler's definitely better than Robert Ory. Yeah. If you needed my help. Well, when I did the 09-2010, I wanted to reward the awesome role-player guy, right? But now this is stupid. So, yeah, he's in.

I got Parker, and I got Manu, and I got Clay Thompson, and Bobby Dandridge, and Jimmy Butler. And then I got Tracy McGrady right in front of him. And Paul Westfall right in front of them. Like those guys were first team, all NBA guys who were in the argument for these are, you know, one of the best five players in the league for a couple of years in a row. But anyway, what an improbable turn of events for that dude, right? He goes 30th in the draft. He, as recently recently, when we started doing podcasts again, when you started doing stuff for The Ringer, Philly trades for him, they basically give up nothing. It's like Covington and Sarich and Jared Bayless, that was the trade. Then Miami basically also gives up

nothing for him. It's like Kassan Whiteside and Josh Richardson and future first. And then over the last four years, turns himself into this unbelievable belated asset. I think he's one of the best 100 players ever. I don't even think it's an argument.

Yeah, I guess, I mean, you know, this is always one of those things. I'm going to just agree with you because I would not be like, no, I got him 117. Sorry, dude. You know what I mean?

He's not like NBA 75. If we were doing the NBA 75 list this year, I don't think he would make it. He's an honorable mention guy at this point. When you think about the talent of Milwaukee and you think about the talent of Austin, you're like, actually, the Heat have been the ones that are in the finals twice and a bucket away from

making it a third time, which would have taken away Boston's one performance where Boston seems to really like being in the Easter conference finals. Um, you know, the only bad run of it was when Milwaukee just put it on him a couple of years ago. And was it the first round? And so, and Butler was bad. There was other weird stuff that was going on that series, but you know,, it's pretty funny when you think about who Boston's supposed to be, who Milwaukee's supposed to be, a little flirtation with, like, who's Philly, the Brooklyn stuff that's never worked out.

And yet, for this four-year run, this team goes into Denver, gets one tonight, and you're like, yeah, like, this has been kind of the class of the East, and yet it's always felt like we had different options. Yeah, we never felt good about it. Yeah, it's funny. If you go back to summer 2019,

and there's a bunch of pieces moving, right? Because that's the year Anthony Davis gets traded. That's the year Kawhi signs with the Clippers, which leads to the Paul George trade as well. And if you just said, Kawhi signs with the Clippers, which leads to the Paul George trade as well. And if you just said, all right, these guys all switch teams. Kawhi, Paul George, Anthony Davis, Jimmy Butler.

One of these guys is going to make two finals and three conference finals. Which one would you pick? Butler's the fourth pick. You would have actually thought that was going to be Kawhi and the Clippers. and the clippers easily right oh that forward's going to make the but it was basically like he took kawaii's mojo coming out of that uh that season so anyway um whatever happens for them even if they lose in five i i think he's just vaulted to another level and it even happened a little bit before this but even watching that game he played today he's just vaulted to another level. And it even happened a little bit before this, but even watching that game he played today,

it's just, I love when guys are awesome when they're not, you can tell they're not 100%. And I would say he's like 80%. So that's one. The other one was Jokic, who I just kept putting him over guys and he's kind of, he's higher than I expected. I'll just say that.

Like I have him in the top 25 now. You have Jokic's 25, top 25. I'm in the top 25. I do. I do. Like you watch that game he played tonight or let's take the last two games.

Two finals games right he's taking pieces of some some of the great finals players we've ever had and he's just making a souffle of those guys like he's got the 77 walton he's got the 2011 dirk and he's got the 86 bird passing post-up stuff and he's just using all three of those parts i think the effect that he has on his teammates and just how what these of those parts i think the effect that he has on his teammates and just how with these stretches that he'll have like the game he had tonight um it's just ridiculous like i i he's at for me at like really close to the highest level i mean he would have to win the title i i factored this in like assuming den wins top 25, if they don't win, nudge it backwards a little

bit. But I think we're now in that territory. So we're talking guys like, you know, Carl Malone, KG, Bob Pettit, Julius Irving, Elgin Baylor, Dirk, Giannis, John Havlicek. From a talent standpoint, I think he's there. He's got the MVPs. But it was just kind of jarring as I was making the list. Oh, he's better than that guy. He's better than thatPs. But it was just kind of jarring as I was making the list. Oh, he's better than that guy. He's better than that guy. And he just kind of kept going up. He's about as reliable of a dominant offensive force as we've had in a long

time. Like, what would be a bad Jokic game at this point? 20 points, 12 rebounds, and 9 assists? Like, man, Jokic sucked tonight. No, it's wild because he's now reached a point offensively where I feel like every possession is the right possession. I never feel like, what the hell was he doing?

That was wrong or that was a bad shot or, oh, he forced that or what did he do there? I mean, I know he had one out of bounds tonight, but for the most part, it's like two hours of watching a guy that doesn't make mistakes, that has the ball this much. You know, there's even shots with Steph where I'll be like, ah, you were just feeling yourself there a little bit. You know, all the great players do some stuff

where you're going to be like, you know, Giannis pulls up from three or bails you out in transition with a jumper, and you're like, why did you not just keep, even though he goes to the lane constantly. Luka, some of the step-back stuff. With Jokic, he's as good as those guys, but he also, I feel like everything he's doing is under the premise of making sure

it's the best possession that you could have. So if you're talking career- career wise he probably gets dinged a little for how much longer it took him yeah he's 28 i'm i'm projecting like just assuming it's gonna take he'll probably have five six more years at this level or around this level right well if he's gonna be like this and maybe wins another mvp along way, then 25 would probably be the low end for him when he's all done. Yeah. Right?

Yeah. So I don't think that's... The other one that's in there is Giannis, who I think is ripping off a similar arc where I just assume, unless there's a catastrophic injury, he'll keep going around the level he's at for the next few years.

The thing with Jokic that was important about these last two rounds is, you know, all the diehards and all the people who were the Jokic kind of touters, he still needed to do it on the highest stage, you know, and that was the last piece. Unfortunately, that's just the way it goes. You gotta be as good with all the lights

against the best possible competition. The stuff he did against the Lakers and then the stuff he's doing in this series, he kind of needed it for the resume, unfortunately. Yeah, but it is an unfortunate. If you're going to be this guy and you only have one Western Conference Finals appearance four years ago and it wasn't even close, eventually you need to kind of do this. That's why I always think the Jimmy stuff is so fascinating because we don't really ever talk about him being one of those guys at the top, which is fine.

I think that's accurate. But then this happens and you're like, well, this is weird. It's like, yeah, but he also kind of skates. He skates. Like if he were considered the fifth best player or the fourth best player in the league all the time, if we actually talked about him like that, then we'd be like, well, how come he doesn't win more right but with him it's like he's in the perfect spot yeah right he wins just enough and he does it in a way that's that's so impressive i'm surprised you liked him as much as as you did tonight but i don't know i don't know if that was the prep because i would agree about the passing but i just maybe i'm holding him to this weird standard of i know we agree that i want to notice

him yeah i just want to notice him. Yeah, I just want to notice him. He's sloppy around the rim, but I think what I liked about him is that he didn't play well, but I thought he still had a huge impact on the game, which to me is like I'm always more impressed when you can do that, when you're like, I don't totally have it, but what are three other things I can do to make the game? I thought he controlled the game offensively.

Like Lowry in the first half was an abomination. He's minus 21, right? Gabe Benson was good. Other than that, they don't really have anybody who can create anything for anybody else. Caleb Martin crashed back to earth, which Raheem did that before, uh, was the, one of the bets before the series, Caleb Martin's points per game. The bet was over under 15 and a half. Oh, wow. And Raheem was like, I'm shorting that. There's no way.

There's no way he could do that two series in a row. You do think like, all right, what makes somebody cool off? If you're Caleb Martin and you have just this incredible run against the Celtics where you're basically outplaying Tatum and Brown, you're following everybody you've ever met in your entire life. You're probably hearing from over the next two days. Right. And people just all over the place, like almost like managing what's happened to your life becomes part of, you know, your preparation for trying to get ready for the finals and all that stuff. So I always feel like we underrate how that would affect somebody.

Even like Derek White after game six, he has that crazy play. Like anyone he's ever met in his life, he's going to hear from over the next 48 hours. How does that affect how you get ready for the next game? But anyway, he's if, if he had played anything remotely like this in the Boston series,

the Celtics are in the finals, but that's the crazy thing about this Miami team. Yeah, right. I mean, they basically, for that series, got an extra superstar out of nowhere. Like, they got Kawhi Leonard for a week. Who is your team? Oh, this.

But there's a guy who turns into Spider-Man for two weeks. And then he's not going to be that again. Where's Gabe Vincent for you as a free agent now? Is he like a $10 million a year guy for you? Would you rather Max him or Harden? I don't know how you did it,

but you got a Harden joke in there. It was great. I'm proud of you. I think he's like a $10 to $12 million a year guy at this point. Right? Yeah. What else do you need? Like who's the guy, Tyus Jones? I think he signed for like 15 million a year.

Yeah. He's got another, yeah. He's not a free agent. I love Tyus Jones. No, but I'm saying like that's, that's the the price range for a good non-all-star point guard, but somebody who's definitely a winning point guard. So Gabe's, I think, somewhere between 10 and 15. I bring this up because we did that second apron stuff last week

and Miami's going to have some tough decisions. And I think Kevin Love is a max player again. I think he showed that today. I don't think you're serious about that. He did have nine and 10 in a couple of great outlets. Cavs didn't need that. They were fine. You know what, though?

I like, you know, for all the times you try to figure out, like, who's a good coach and who sucks and all that kind of stuff. Like, we all know how great Spoh is. And then you see something where for Spoh, especially when it turns into a win you're like all right that's great but if it was somebody else and they they lost you'd go so let me get this straight you couldn't even play this guy a minute in game one and then he's just starting power forward in game two but i really think he's all over the place yeah right uh so i i just don't know that we're consistent enough with it but i i think at least for this series with that size like just from the jump seeing aaron gordon seal everybody in game

one where you're like oh this is going to be a problem and like they can do it when the primary defender they can do it at a switch they can do it and then it's like now they're just going to put a power forward out there instead of another guard And that changes a lot of the cross matching, you know, depending on even what your, your primary assignment is. So, uh, yeah, I don't know, man, it worked out, it worked out. And, uh, you know, the series is, you know, they won in Denver too. They, they wanted a place that nobody wins. They came back. It looked like after a great start, they were going to get run out of there and they just they slowed it down enough to stay in it and then they look like it's the far superior offensive team i mean i couldn't believe it i looked up it was like they have 29 points in

eight minutes in the fourth quarter at denver so not many teams would do that i was looking at uh pat riley and i was doing some pat riley, which I think a lot of people know the details. There's some stuff out there like Chris Herring had in his book about, you know, he took over the heat in 1995. The Knicks were kind of flaming out. Like he kind of knew he had sit in the wall with that Knicks team. So Herring said he asked for $50 million over five years and a 10% ownership stake. And nobody knows exactly what the deal is, but he definitely had a pretty hefty stake in the team, which he might have sold in 06 or might have sold the piece from. But the Heat to that point,

they were 0-2 in playoff series. They had a high of 42 wins. And since they did that, they lost in the Eastern Finals in 97, 05, and 22. They made the finals in 06, 11, 12, 13, 14, 20, and 23. And they won three titles.

But I put down all the stuff he did. It's pretty impressive. You're talking like a quarter of a century, but did the morning race trade. He did the Cycli for Hardaway trade. He did the cycling for Hardaway trade. He did that sneaky Lamar Odom signing when something got screwed up with Anthony Carter, his agent did he get all of a sudden the Miami had Lamar Odom. He drafted Wade with the fifth pick in 03, which was not a slam dunk at the time.

Like there was some Chris Kamen buzz with that pick. He traded for Shaq when Shaq was super expensive and there were only a couple teams and it was like, is this guy's body breaking down? He did it anyway. He built all the cap space for LeBron and Bosh, hired Spolstra, did that Drogic trade, which got them into the finals a few years later,

picked Bam 13th, and then he pulled off that crazy Jimmy Butler thing. Those are 10 things. 10 really, really elite executive things. And I'm not even talking about the heat culture side, but right around then was when Red Auerbach really got pushed out with the Celtics.

And I would say Riley's probably the successor to that kind of over and over again has been able to figure it out team that's my Riley monologue for you no and it's and it's good the New York thing you know for people that are younger to understand like that was a big deal Pat the rat the whole thing then being getting to go up against them like it was nasty because what do you do is fax his resignation in and well there was some stuff he had a year left on his deal. Right, right.

He was definitely talking to Miami in the four months leading up to the end of this season. So there was some shadiness with that. But they also wouldn't give him a piece of the team. I mean, he was really smart about, I want, you know, I deserve a stake in the team if I'm going to be running everything. I actually deserve a stake.

And nobody was thinking like that before. So he kind of invented that. But you trace that back to the Knicks. Maybe in retrospect, they'd take the reset button on that one. Hey, Pat, here's your stake. Maybe keep them. I don't know. So anyway, it starts with that and it just keeps going through. And then, um, you know, this, that the fact what he saw in Spolstra, how he stuck up for

Spolstra and, uh, and all that stuff. Pretty cool. Any, uh, any other finals things you want to hit before we move on? Um, any big picture stuff, anything catching your eye? No, not really. Uh, yeah, I You wish you were there? Yeah, I do wish I had gone. Denver or Miami?

Which city? Probably Denver. I think the Denver thing would have been fun. I don't know because it's always hard to tell on TV, but it didn't seem like the crowd was incredible for that game. I thought they were awesome. I mean, usually, look, when you're losing, and you're losing like they are the entire fourth quarter, you just don't think you see many crowds that are super,

like, because they're sitting there going, is this really happening? It's like the worst feeling. I agree. Right? So whenever, you know, whenever we do these body language things, like, oh, wait, the team that's losing and is bummed out doesn't look like they're having fun.

No way. You know, like, that's just the way it goes uh but yeah i don't really think i have anything left other than you know i want to watch the zone stuff again because i felt like some of the zone results were a little overrated from game one but it prevented them from being able to go kind of into their two-man game which is the default what they want to do on their offense and And, you know, it was crazy. That fourth quarter's crazy. So here we go.

Do you think... That's all I have. Do you think any NBA team, any other NBA team will try to emulate what they did with the zone? Do you think it's emulatable or do you need a certain type of coach and certain type of players?

That could... I'm trying to think of another undersized another undersized team like could dallas do this with luca as a way to to cheat having luca on your team defensively or yeah i think luca you know could atlanta do it i don't know luca would be the worst defender trey would be the worst defender in miami you know like all of these guys you know some of these dudes that had to try to find a way to have any kind of career. Well, guess what they couldn't do? Take off possessions on defense.

So it's like, hey, you're a two way. You're an undrafted. You're you got cut by the Celtics. Like you got to play defense. And even Duncan Robinson, who, you know, looked like his career was over here. The great thing, the classic heat thing is going to be they're going to trade him and actually get something of value from him when he looked like he was one of the worst contracts in the NBA.

I do think the zone, there has to be some buy-in, but I'm a big believer in it. I'm a big believer in it. I mean, look, it just took Denver's offense out of rhythm for a good stretch here, even though I still felt like they got good looks, but it wasn't

them kind of predetermining what they wanted to do, where I thought the zone stuff, like, the backups killed it in Game 1 for Denver, and then there was the stretch in the second half where Miami ran the zone with Jokic, where I know the numbers probably said it was really successful.

I didn't feel like... I thought they were really good looks, you know, like, wait, is it score or is it the other team's getting good looks? And so I think they've both gotten good looks in these games against it. But I would want to do this if I were another team. I'd be going, how do we do this? How do we implement more of this stuff in there? Because it seems to be a real weapon because the other team's just never ready for it so i don't know and we talked about this before but the the other thing is the i would press with my backup unit i would have a specific like full core ball pressure thing the heats have fucked around

with it a couple times but we watched this work when the patino when that was like the one interesting thing of the patino era in Boston. When he had that in the first season, when he had that weird press with all the athletes and it was effective. And maybe it's something you only have to do with like the seven through 11 guys on your bench or something.

But I think the case for Moore's zone, it kind of puts the game in a blender. It just, it makes, I don't want to say chaotic because it's not quite chaotic. It just has a different kind of feel and momentum to the game. It just doesn't feel like a normal basketball game anymore when it's happening. And I think you, it like disrupted Denver in a very subtle way that I hadn't seen from them. And I watched a lot of Nuggets this year, but they But they seemed a tiny bit disrupted. So, all right, we're going to take a break and then we're going to figure out what Portland should do.

When you ride transit, please be safe. Yeah, be safe. Because what you do, others will do too. Others will do it too. So don't take shortcuts across tracks. Don't do that. In fact, just don't walk on tracks at all. Not at all. Trains move quietly so you won't hear them coming. You won't hear them coming. See, safe riding sets an example. Yeah, an example for me. Because

safety is learned. It's learned. Okay, give it up. Give what up? Really? Really, really. This message is brought to you by Metrolinks. All right, so Scoot Henderson went to Portland. And this is one of the more interesting decisions I've seen with a team in a while. We've talked about it already, but I really want to dive into it. And I think you and I are the co-GMs and we have to decide what we'd do

if we were running Portland. Like the Paul Allen's niece or whoever owns that team. They're just like, you know, I don't like my GM. I really like these guys on the Sunday night pods. I'm just going to let them decide what we do. To me, it's pretty clear what they should do is trade

Dame and draft Scoot and have Scoot and Sharp and Simons and just kind of rebuild around that plus what they get for Dame. The weird thing to do would be to take whoever's left, which probably will be Scoot, and just have them and Scoot and Dame and Simons and Sharp. And I don't know what you're trying to do at that point. But very rarely do you see a team with a specific like, all right, we have a week and here are the two paths.

Do we want to be good? Or do we want to like kind of reboot and rebuild? So if you're going to keep Dame, I don't know how you also have Shaden Sharp and the number three pick. I don't know what those two assets do for you if you have this window with dame who's entering his mid-30s next season what would you do i wouldn't want to keep playing uh this this dame game every year because you

know to be fair to him right it's not it's not like he's pulling an aaron rogers every offseason right and it's probably more of us from the outside so like even though this feels like it's been going on for years because it has it's not really his fault you know it's all of us just wondering and then there would be like a chris haynes update every now and then right where you'd be like what is he saying here is this like a hint that he wants out or is he doing the deal where he wants out but he he doesn't want to ask out which is kind of like the garnett stuff that happened minnesota you know 15 years ago it's almost like the mart it's like the martyr move yeah but with with him with him being at 45 48 58 63 million the next four years.

I wouldn't want to be paying him that because that might be devastating. And what's our version of good if you're Portland? Hey, everybody's healthy. Everybody runs it back. And then what? We're in the playing game? Probably. So I would want to get off the Dame contract now because I think it's going to be horrifying

at the end. Also, what's my goal in the West where I'm in the same conference as Jokic, who's clearly going to be at this level for the next six years? I have Wemba Nyama coming in. Yeah, but I'm not.

I'd be like, whatever. Three years from now, I got Wemba Nyama. God only knows what that Spurs team is going to look like I have that New Orleans team with a bunch of assets I have OKC with a shitload of assets

you know so long term there's going to be teams that might have better assets than me short term I'm not going to be better than

a team like Denver at least the Lakers next year if they bring their guys back and who knows with Memphis so I don't even know which era I would target.

I would probably move toward later and hope that somebody panics and gives me too much for damn would be my hope. I just don't know who that team is. Somebody would do it. I mean, somebody would because he's that good. And they would be like, I'll worry about the who that team is. Somebody would do it. I mean, somebody would because he's that good. And they would be like, I'll worry about the rest of it later. I still think Philly and the Harden thing, with their contract, I think Daryl is just going to go, whatever. I don't care.

I'll just trade him. If it's a bad number at the end, somebody else will trade for him. I'm not going to worry about it. And he's done that a couple times in the past to get his guys. So I do think there'd be teams that are really interested in Damian Lillard, but I think we're on the same page

here, that it's like in the best case scenario of events, everybody's healthy, they keep Grant, everything's good, Nurkic actually plays all the time, Sharp takes a jump. All of these things. I don't really think that team's probably any better than in that 6-7-8 range.

They just don't defend. They don't. The small guards, man. They got two really small ones. And Lillard has no interest in being a defensive player at all. He just doesn't. He kind of gets a pass for it. And Lillard has no interest in being a defensive player at all. He just doesn't. Yeah, like even if they were able to talk the Celtics into like a Jeremy Grant sign and trade

with the number three pick for Jalen Brown, I don't know where that gets them, right? Or if they did, I don't know, number three and sharp for Jalen Brown or Paul George or some established star, I still don't know where that gets them. Does that get them to round two? Does that get them to round three? The move, you have Sharp, you have Simons, you have a number three pick and a three player, and then it drops draft. And you can turn Dame into a shitload. Unfortunately for them, I don't feel like Philly has quite enough for a Dame trade which you wouldn't have said a year ago but I think now

I don't know if they have enough and if you go around the league it's kind of hard to find a fit for them because I tried I looked around I was like what about this team what about the the one that makes sense is the one we talked about already which was Atlanta now we're not on Trey Young's new podcast. Well, if it was a Trey and Dame as the principles of it, and then if you're Portland, you're basically getting a much younger version of the explosive offensive player you already have.

And if you're Atlanta, you're solving the Trey-DeJounte thing. You're bringing Dame in. You don't care about the money piece of it because you want to be good. You have an older team that fits better with him and that might make more sense. I don't think... Miami is another one that you have to take seriously because they have De'Hero and Lowry plus a lot of picks and they just have a tendency to keep grabbing these dudes. Other than that, it's pretty hard. You go around the league,

it's hard to find a team unless the Knicks said hey let's do it we'll go RJ we'll go another one of the guards yeah but you can't have Jalen Brunson and Dame Lillard as your backcourt like that's I wouldn't that team's not going anywhere right now there could be a three-teamer where if it was like Embiid goes to the Knicks and Dame's going to the Sixers and we did a ring around the Rosie thing. Yeah, but why is Dame going to the Sixers? That never happens. He's not going to be there. Well, that's the thing.

That never happens. Then the only other one, and I was trying to think, how does he get to Milwaukee? And I couldn't figure that one out either. Then the only other one, and I swear, it always seems like we're bringing this team up because Saruti's on the podcast, but, you know,

Dame and Orlando, with the assets they have, the problem is their young guys aren't quite where they need to be with yet, but they have the assets to make a Dame big-ass trade if they wanted to. Yeah, but not trading... A trade that would make sense for Portland.

What would it be, though? Because they're not trading Franz or Paulo. You think Suggs, Fultz, you know? You don't think they would trade Franz and Six for Dame? No, I don't think they would. I don't think they would.

Can you chat us whether Serena said, I would not. Yeah, it's tough. You go through and it's... What about Ingram and... Brandon Ingram and Dame? So now you're going to have CJ and Dame on the Pelicans again?

This is the problem. This is the problem with Dame trades. So you read this stuff, it's like, well, they might trade Dame. And it's like, to where? For who? Go through all the teams. It's way harder than you think.

I mean, there's a Memphis, there's a Ja, but Ja getting suspended. I don't know how many games he's going to be suspended for, but could that be an out for Memphis? And then, I don't know. What do you think for the Josh Dispensary, by the way?

What is your prediction? It'll be more than I think it should be. I think it'll be heavy unless Silver was just coming down as like a leader and teasing as if he was going to throw the book at him. For whatever reason, the last few years, I think for those of us that do this job, there's a race to show how down you are with punishment. You want more punishment than the other person. So I think 20 games is egregious,

and people seem to think that's not enough. You cannot like him. You can think he's an idiot. I do think there has to be kind of the application. Unless there's way more to this that I don't know about. But considering what we all know that he's been dumb enough to do, like you really think a guy should lose half of a season because of some Instagram videos?

Like that to me is insanity. But it's like, I don't know. It's just weird how punishment plays out, where it's this contest to see who takes punishment the most serious. Doesn't mean I like Ja. Doesn't mean I think any of this shit's cool. Doesn't mean I don't think he's made huge mistakes and has to figure some

stuff out. The interview with Jalen was terrible. fake rehab stand was terrible. Stress rehab. They're doing all the stuff they think they're supposed to be doing. I don't like any of it. I don't like any of it. And because of that, I think people also don't like any of it. They're like,

oh yeah, half the season or whatever. I don't know, half the season? That seems like, I think 20 games is going to be a lot if he gets that. You and I haven't talked about this and we actually agree. To me, 15 games seems like a shitload of games for this.

Yeah, right? are we the only sane people here because i feel like i'd see just commentary about it and i think when you go on tv like something fucked up happens to you i really do where you're like you have to show how serious you're taking these violations so then you when you're on tv you have to be like, dude, if he misses the whole season, you know, and I'd be like, what are you talking about? You don't have to like anything he did. You can think he's the dumbest guy in the league, but there still should be kind of a line where you're like, okay, that's too far. You can't suspend him half the season for this stuff. Well, the part I don't get is he, nobody was being hurt or threatened or anything in any way like he was just acting like a jackass well the washington post article which i've heard so many different

versions of what that is or isn't i don't know what it means i don't know what it means either but that but they already they already litigated that so this is the second offense where he flashed a gun for a split second i would I be happy if this was my son? No, I would not. Do I think he should lose half the season? We weren't privy to what they talked about when they suspended him the first time. And there might be more stuff that we don't know about. But from what we know, it seems insane. The arenas thing. I was like, I get it, man. That's fucking crazy. They had guns in the locker room and they're starting to shoot each other. Like, like, yeah, I get it. I don't really get this other. And cause the other pieces,

obviously there's something really bad going on with this guy. And to, you know, this is, we grew up in the eighties, especially I'm a tiny bit older than you, but we grew up with a lot of dudes, especially NBA guys who threw their careers away or threw portions of their careers away, just making dumb decisions, or they were addicted to a chemical, or they just had bad judgment or whatever it was. So this is the NBA I was used to. They, we don't see it anymore because these guys they have such a better support system around them the league is so much better about kind of helping them when they come into the league

social media makes people way more kind of self aware about how they're being presented into the world so this is just less common but honestly if you're comparing this to stuff in the 80s like this is like a 1 out of 10 so unless

we know more i just don't know how you lose half a season that's what makes me think there's got to be more there's got to be more stuff that hasn't come out yeah right based on what we know and what we've seen but when silver went on tv and kind of teased he was going to like layeth the smacketh down here you were like oh, oh. But that was fucked up too. Do it on a Friday after game one. Why are you saying we don't want it to track from the finals, but

instead we're going to have everyone talking about this for two weeks before we unveil what we're doing. I didn't get that either. I thought that was a bad idea. All of this is stupid. And, you know, the biggest offense to me was when he went away, the bogus Jalen interview. I love you, Jalen. But that interview was ridiculous.

And the bogus rehab stint where it's like, he's fine. It's like, what rehab clinic works for five days? Is this a rehab clinic anyone's heard of? Usually when people go to rehab, they go away for like a month or they go away for six weeks or they really try to work on some shit. It didn't seem like he worked on anything.

So is that his fault or is that the team's fault or the people around him or everybody? But should the guy lose 40 games of a paycheck? I just don't see it. Yeah, I don't either either and i think what happens is when you're like hey that's that's a then it like immediately becomes oh you're okay with it you're like no i'm not okay with it i think it's really stupid i think it's really stupid i don't know i don't know what the goal is you know sometimes when we sit and we try to figure out the motivations with different athletes, sometimes it's like, maybe...

Maybe he's being intentionally self-destructive or who the fuck knows. But clearly something bad is going on with him, right? Yeah, that's the part that I think you're right, is the scary part. And if they have way more info and they know more about it than what we know now at this point, which of course they would, but you'd have to go, if they really hammer him, and say, okay, he's going to be out half the season, but is there a chance he can come back early?

I don't know, depending on him going through stuff. But I don't know, maybe we just saw Silver hint at that he was going to hammer the sky and, and we're all off base and that it's, it's still only going to be 20 games, which again, I still think is a lot, but we'll see.

Yeah. Cause the point you keep hearing when people talk about this stuff is how does this stuff happen? How does somebody, you know, how does somebody risk everything? And I'm amazed that doesn't happen more often. We're putting, we're putting these people in the spotlight now. I mean, sometimes the kids are

16, 17, 18, they're in the spotlight. It's too bad. He's certainly one of the most fun players we've gotten to watch over the last 10 to 12 years. And it looks like he's poised to throw it away. Yeah. That's the other part of it is that it's not just that he's a star. He's one of the most marketable stars. And Nike felt like they kind of wanted to reset the decks

with three players or four, I guess you could say, between Zion having a shoe, Luka having a shoe, Tatum having a shoe, and Ja having a shoe. And when I was in Chicago for the Combine,

I just went to Nike and Michigan Ave because I wanted to go to the Nike shop. And I'm looking around and I was like, how are these jaws doing? He's like, we sold out of them, you know? Wow. So I was like, okay. I think they had one color away that was sold out. The other one you could get, um, there. And then I was like, well, how are the other shoes doing? He's like, his shoes are selling better than Tatum, Zion's or Lucas, but you know, you're also in Chicago. So I was like, yeah, I guess so.

Well, in the eighties, when stuff like this happened with your best player, they traded the guy. And a lot of times, like, especially like during the cocaine era, if the guy had a cocaine problem,

they would kind of hope the other teams to know about it and try to sneak trade him. Like, Hey, you're interested in Michael Richardson. He's available. Yeah. He's great. Yeah, I think we'd trade him. And then all of a sudden, he bounces around from Golden State. He goes to, he ends up with New Jersey. I think he might've gone. Bernard King went to Golden State and Utah, came back to the

Knicks and then cleaned his life up. But they were able to do a lot of stealth stuff. I don't think you can do any stealth stuff now. And I'm sure there's some teams out there that are like, hey, should we trade for Ja? How do we get him? Should we go after him? If you're Memphis, you had this unbelievable setup where you had him and Triple J and Bane, and you made some good draft picks.

You're feeling really good. And now that's all flipped upside down. And I'm with you. It seems like he's going to get suspended 35, 40 games. And we haven't talked about it, you and I, on this podcast, just because I hate talking about stuff when I don't know what actually happened. But the way Silver handled that thing this week,

it made it seem like he, you know, if he got suspended for the whole season, I wouldn't be shocked, you know? It seems like they're taking this incredibly seriously because there's a piece of this now where it's like, I cut you some slack on the first one and then you did this. So it's a little like Spygate deflategating where the second penalty is going to be way harsher because the guy feels like they let up on the first one a little bit. Yeah, that's a good analogy because you were like, wait, what happened

on the deflategate stuff? And then you dug into it analogy because you were like wait what happened on the deflate gate stuff and then you dug into it all and you're like this is ridiculous this is a revenge suspension basically right right that's that's what it felt like so with this because you know when the first time i don't think i've talked about it all on my pod either because i'm with you in that clearly there's more information than the information that you or i have but um the first time he was at shotgun willies in denver outside of denver uh i don't know if it's technically in denver or not but anyway um the easiest thing in the world was like hey that's not my guy like if you wanted to play that there it was going to be really easy for you to not have to

get in trouble for that you know you could just say hey sorry it's not mine you know what are you going to do can't prove it the authorities weren't going to do anything about it right the nba is like we can't really do anything about it and then for it to happen again you know in the same fucking way but it seems like a cry for help to me that's not like normal behavior you know, in the same fucking way. But it seems like a cry for help to me. That's not like normal behavior, you know? And then there's been so much emphasis on mental health the last 10 years. So then how do you judge whether that's even a piece of that or not?

Because clearly the guy's not playing with a full deck these days. So how do you even handle that? How do you discipline that? If he's willing to intentionally sabotage his life, how do we even address what the reasons are for that and whether you should be punished for it? Because clearly there's way more going on. Yeah, I don't know. That's crazy that he did it the second

time. To me, that just seems like somebody who's trying to sabotage their own life. Or they have a friend who's really bad with the phone. Right. Or, or maybe like, who knows, maybe he was super high. I didn't know what he was doing. Maybe it was a toy gun, but the way Adam, you know, kind of presented it a few days ago, it seemed like more somber than maybe any of us were expecting. Right. Yeah. Almost like they have more information on it than we're privy to. Um, all right, we'll take one more break and then we're going to do a little game we played last year that we're bringing back. All right. So last year at this time, we played a game like literally this month, 2022, we played a game. Worst GM jobs. The GM jobs you wouldn't want to have. And the parameters were talent of the roster, salary cap situation. What's your owner like? What market are you in? What's your success upside?

What's the ceiling of the job? So we went back and I listened. It was really funny, the order we had in 2022. We just went, we traded picks. You had the first pick and you took Sacramento. You thought that was the worst GM job. And I, by the way, agreed with you. We just were like, where is this team going?

And I think at one point one of us said, well, they have the fourth pick, so that's good. But for the most part, seemed pretty grim with not a lot of movement potential. With my first pick, I took Washington. I think I got good value a year later. Still feeling good about that. You took Phoenix third because you didn't know

what was going on with them long term, how the Chris Paul thing was going to play out. Obviously, now they have the Duran and that's a different situation. I took the Lakers with my second pick. Didn't anticipate Austin Reeves

turning into, you know, the free agent steal of 2023 potentially. You took Portland. I took Utah. And we had a whole conversation about what do you do with Mitchell and Gobert not realizing they were about to trade them for 200 picks and a couple of future all-NBA guys. You took Philly.

Only if there was a heart at max. You're very careful. Their heart at max has to be involved. I took Brooklyn and laid out a whole case. So this is all, right. So this is the beginning of June 2022. So it's before free agency. It happened.

Right. Okay. And I was like, I don't know what's happening with this Brooklyn team, but it feels like they're headed for a cliff. And like three weeks later, KDS for trade. Then you took Charlotte. And then with the 12th and last pick I took Atlanta

not a lot of those teams are going to be left in the worst GM job draft for 2023 also a little harder to figure out 12 teams this year because I think you know like San Antonio if they had gotten the fourth pick instead of the first pick would have been probably the first pick in our draft now they're

not going to get drafted I'm going to give you the first pick again have been probably the first pick in our draft. Now they're not going to get drafted. I'm going to give you the first pick again. Which GM job would you not want heading into the draft in free agency right now? Charlotte. Charlotte? Yeah. Interesting.

Because I think, well, one, the whole reason Sacramento was the answer last year is because of Vivek. That was a big part of the conversation the whole reason Sacramento was the answer last year is because of a vet. All right. Um, that was a big part of the conversation. And then Monty McNair ends up winning executive of the year. So,

uh, they did a great job. It was awesome. You know, good for the Sacramento Kings, but I still think the owner part of it's such a big, big factor. And even though the Hornets are supposedly going to be sold here,

uh, the Jordan runs been terrible. We've been over it. You have some weird basketball decisions that you have to worry about. And on top of that, you're probably going to max out LaMelo because he's your star. You'll have to do it. And you don't want to do it.

So that would be my first choice. Would you trade Jalen Brown for LaMelo Ball? No. Would you trade Jalen Brown for LaMelo Ball and Gordon Hayward? His expiring? I don't know. Gordon doesn't stay healthy, man. I wouldn't do either trade.

I was trying to think like if if charlotte decided you know who's awesome scoot henderson let's take that guy number two and we'll trade lamello like what i wonder what they could get for lamello okay with my first pick, this surprised me. I'm going to take the Chicago Bulls. Wow. Well, I don't know what their move is. They don't have a first-round pick this year. They lost the Franz Wagner pick. DeRozan's in his mid-30s now.

I'm not a Zach Levine guy. Just feel free to put that on my IMDB or wherever you want. He's certainly fine. Just not personally my cup of tea. He might be yours, just not for me. There's talk about a Vooch extension, which made me super nervous. That was in the news.

I don't know if Patrick Williams is going to be good. And I don't really know what the moves are with this team. From a roster standpoint, there's a lot of other rosters I wanted. And a couple of the other teams that I was thinking about, I was like, well, at least they have a top seven, top eight pick. So I'm taking the Bulls second. You were surprised by that? Yeah. But as you talked it out, they're definitely kind of stuck right now. I just don't want to be in no man's land with the team I'm taking over. And I'm also not convinced

that that team ever wants to spend money. What was that thing? They exceeded the luxury tax like once in 15 years, something like that. So I have an owner who doesn't love spending money. I don't have any first round picks. And the Lonzo Ball thing was just an all-time bad beat. Doesn't seem like he's even coming back.

So, all right, who do you have? Yeah, the Lonzo thing sucks. This is going to be weird. You're going to be surprised I'm taking this team as high as I am. But I'm going to take Minnesota. Oh, even with our guy Edwards? I know, even with our guy edwards i know even with our favorite player but you know gobert is going to be 41 44 47 million and then carl anthony towns who

you know i'm just not a huge fan of 36 then 50 54 58 million player option for 62.0 million uh that's in 27 28 uh conley they have to make a decision on his contract so there's some depth stuff there um in look jayden's been a nice story for them but for him to like be really something you're gonna have to see a little bit more from his offense as well and that's with one of my single favorite players in the league like if i give you my list of five favorite players in the nba anthony edwards is list of five favorite players in the NBA, Anthony Edwards is on that list. You factor in those two guys, you already know this, and the draft picks

that they moved out. I think the scary thing is they're going to have to... We already know Milwaukee is at some point going to have to reinvent this thing on the fly with stage two or three of whatever Giannis is. I don't even know if Minnesota will be able to do it in a way that helps the rest of the roster when they have to figure out who they're going to be.

Because I think Edwards will be that good. And pretending that he's not the number one option as they move forward is probably just a waste of everybody's time. You made me think as you were talking that out, does a Towns-Dame trade make sense? Maybe. And then Portland takes Scoot and you put Dame and Edwards together with Gobert as a center and you got McDaniels it's not nothing

if you're Portland I'm probably hoping I can get more from Dame Towns is like 27 at this point I feel like he is what he is but he's still a 25 and 10 when he's healthy. He's still a pretty good player. He's still a good player.

I just don't trust him. And I don't know what happens to him in games where I feel like pressure. Yeah, he feels like it might just be the way he is so demonstrative that it ends up being worse than it actually is with the basketball stuff.

But I feel like he lets shit get to him. Not DeMarcus Cousins way where you'd be like, oh, he's gone for the game. Like, OK, we'll see you on Tuesday. You've got nothing left for tonight. I wouldn't say anything was ever that bad, but I look, I think there's plenty of evidence to say that those two guys, it just, I don't know,

man, we've been over it. We've talked about it a million times. I need to keep going over it. I'm taking the Clippers. No, I'm taking the Clippers next. Clippers are on my board,

but the ownership deal, great owner, but, um, the great owner also put us in the position where I have a $210 million payroll. I have a best player who makes an insane amount of money, who

keeps getting hurt, and then kind of tells you when he's going to play. I have no draft picks at all. OKC just basically has all my drafts going forward for a couple of years here. Paul George is very dangerously heading toward that Blake Griffin. When Blake Griffin all of a sudden had had like seven, eight surgeries and you're like, oh man, that's a lot for one body.

And then all of a sudden his career went off a cliff. I do worry about that with Paul George. He's had a lot of injuries to a lot of major body parts. And then I don't really know what else I'm supposed to like on this team. And I don't know how they have a $209 million payroll. So I don't know what the fixes are. I think the fact that Ty Lue was out there and about as being available for these different coaching jobs when he was under contract for another year was really weird and the clippers were like you you're not going anywhere um i don't know what the fixes are with this team the salary stuff is like it's kind of jaw-dropping the spot track like pulsates when you look at it

when you do the multi-year contracts the the spot track starts doing some fucking Daniel Craig getting poisoned in were like, okay, so let me go over this again. You're like, all right, Terrence Mann's 10 and a half, 11. Zubach is worth 11 million, but he is 11 million. Covington's 12 million. Batum's another 12 million. Fucking Marcus Morris is 17 million. Oh. 17 million for next year.

You know, you're just stuck. You have for next year. You're just stuck. You have all these pieces. Gordon's not even close to being fully guaranteed, but they'll probably bring him back. At this point, why not? Those Knicks rosters from the early 2000s when they just had so many salaries,

the only way to get out of the mess they were in was to trade for more salaries. They just kept adding. It becomes like a ladder match for a salary cap. I'm laughing so hard because I'll never forget Isaiah going on with Mike and the dog to explain what he was doing. And they were like, what are you doing? And dog is just like letting him have it, right? And he's going, he's he's like well what you don't

realize chris is when you have an expiring you can then trade that for somebody else's contract because those expirings are really valuable and then dog's like yeah but you keep trading them for like a more egregious contract right and then he's like yeah but then those become expiring like he didn't understand like a pod Right. Right. Right. And then now he's running the Suns. Right. And so I was like, what? And then I even had Isaiah on years later. It's somebody had set it up for us and we had him on. And I was like, hey, when you did this deal here, but then you said this. And the guy that set up the interview saw me in the hallway and he was just like he did not he thought he was just going to come on with you and bullshit about the nba playoffs for seven minutes and you started going through his entire basketball reference history he's like i can't imagine but again he hated you way more than me so i think i was in the clear we ironed it out i'm surprised i'm surprised he didn't want to just hate you forever nah we're fine.

What's your next pick? Okay. This is actually where the board gets a little interesting. I have a couple picks left that I really liked. Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and say Wizards again. Oh, that was my next one. Great value. The problem is the guys that you're going to be paying,

like Porzingis opting out to get more money would scare the shit out of me. I like Kuzma. I like Kuzma in a certain number. And then my number one dude, your favorite player, Bradley Beal, is not that guy. I know his numbers say he's that guy. So the problem is, is if you're Washington, you're like, we're paying A money for B minus players. Yeah, we're our big three is a 37 and 45 team.

And then Beal has no trade clause. So even if you want to get out of the Beal business, you still need his permission. It's tough. You never, and it's so funny because this has been House's whole life ever since I've known him, of them just having these static teams of big money guys that then you can't kind of get out

of the team you've created. No flexibility. This is just what the Wizards do. I think it's great value. I have no idea what Przingis is worth. You could tell me he's going to sign for 80 for four years and I'd be like, okay. I have no idea if

he's going to make it two years. You could tell me he's going to sign for 150 for four years. I wouldn't be surprised. I don't know what his value is. I don't even know who they're competing against, but he was pretty good last year. I think he was like 20 and 9, something like that. And he played the whole year. He wasn't hurt. So wait, the last,

the last time they've been in the Easter conference finals was, was in the seventies. Yeah. It was the 1979 bullets. Yeah. It's grim. It's, it's about as grim as it gets.

The nuggets were kind of secretly grim too, but the wizards even had them beat. Okay. Um, I'm'm gonna take Houston yeah I like this because it's not just about Houston it's about comparing Houston everything else because Houston's at least a thought on the board but uh go ahead and explain yourself yeah well well the board's gotten a lot harder so we'll start Um, I don't know who my, there's no doubt. This guy is a keeper guy in that team is they have some talent.

I like we've, they've had a losing record. I think they're like 42 and one 40 for the last two years, something like 42 and one 20. I can't remember where it is. It's bad. Um, I have no idea if anybody on that team can

be the top three guy on a team that can win the title. They ended up with the number four pick in a draft that has three guys and then drops. They have all this cap space, but it seems like they're going to spend it on James Harden because that's what the owner wants, which is another piece of this ranking is I have to work for the owner. And I just think there's teams that have better situations going up and down the board. I don't really know what my goal, at least I have this.

I don't know what that is. So unfortunately, I'm going to take Houston. Now they might be able to hit that number four pick. Maybe one of those Thompson twins will end up being the best guy in the draft other than Wabanyama. I don't know. But I don't know.

It probably sounds a wee bit harsh, but out of everybody that was left on the board, that was the one that jumped out to me. Yeah, it feels a little harsh until you actually run through the exercise, right? Because if you started kicking around like Detroit, you go all right i

think they may know who their backcourt is and the other piece they're going to add to it here charlotte was my number one pick orlando we like their roster wizards we already took i mean i guess i could go pacers and go are they going to be stuck in purgatory here for a little while have the pacers roster and i'd rather have their assets right right so then you go okay what about in the west? I thought about maybe Dallas because of the Kyrie situation that you put yourself into where you have, like, if you end up giving Kyrie

three with a conditional fourth year on it or some shit where it's actually all incentivized, then I would have already taken them. But I don't know what's going to happen here with Dallas. But you can't take Dallas because of the Luka thing because at least Dallas always has to get out of jail free card. Yeah.

And if they have to trade Luka, they'll get more for him than anyone's ever gotten for a trade. So at least they know they have that. They know who their guy is. And it feels like Houston's given Jalen Green two years to just see if he can be the guy. And honestly, he feels like a talented player who was just the primary option on a really bad team. So the numbers are going to look good, even if certain nights you were like,

well, I have no idea what they're doing. And so Houston's the right call over San Antonio, clearly with Len Banyama, with Utah at all the picks, Dallas having a real guy, the Pelicans, despite their injuries, having a better roster, Oklahoma City, all their assets, we already took Minnesota. So City, all their assets. We already took Minnesota. So yeah, I think Houston's a totally

fair one. And if they max out hard and bring them back, I might take them number one. Yeah, they would vault. They would vault up. If we did the ringer draft board for this, they would vault up. Alright, two more picks. Who do you have for your last one? Well, I kind of know.

Yeah, if Kyrie goes to Dallas, Dallas. That's a great pick. It kind of isn't, though. You know, like, I already went through the exercise and said it all out here. I'm just saying good value. Yeah, but having a top five guy who's kind of like a no doubt top five guy,

even if he's taken some dings after making it to the conference finals last year and not getting out of the plan, not even getting into it, that might make it wrong. But I'm just, I'm adding the Kyrie part of it on top of the fact that, you know, they got a Christian Wood decision to make

and every other thing. So there's going to be a couple of guys I don't like that are probably going to be under contract there. The fear with that trade is you wake up one morning, Luca's like, I want out. Right. Then what happens?

The thing is, there's people that want to play with Luca. There's guys you'll hear about dudes who are like, I want to play with Luca. But there's nothing really there. And that's probably why they're going to do the Kyrie deal. I don't love this pick, but we're running out of teams.

I'm going to take Brooklyn because, um, you know, they're going to be missing some picks going forward. I think they're fine. They're kind of in that no man's land. I really like bridges. They're going to resign. Cam picks going forward. I think they're fine. They're kind of in that no man's land. I really like Bridges. They're going to resign Cam Johnson.

I like Claxton. Like they have, you know, it's not, it's not terrible. They don't have like a top 20 guy. They don't really have the roadmap for the top 20 guy unless they can get lucky once they're back in the free agency game. But more importantly to me is just like, we had this whole Brooklyn run that really started when Prokhorov bought the team and went all the way through this Durant, Harden, and Kyrie, where they had all these chances to be

more relevant than the Knicks. And then the Knicks won one playoff series and it felt a hundred times more relevant in the tri-state area. There's just so many more Knicks fans. You're just drawn with a dead hand with Brooklyn. The only way they can change that is if they end up with one of the five most transcendent guys in the league, but they had one and it still wasn't like amazing.

You know, so I don't, that job would just be tough because you have an owner who doesn't care how much money he spends, but you've had now a few years of, oh, if only that hadn't happened and that hadn't happened, that hadn't happened. And now I don't really know what your nucleus is. What is it? What's the upside of that team? 45 wins max. So it's Brooklyn. I don't feel great about it, but I thought they were the best on the board.

They do get some of the picks back with the Phoenix deal, but they're not going to be picking as high as maybe they should be with a reflection of what their record is going to be. But I feel like this was a 16 draft, and then our last two picks were reaches. Because I feel wrong even putting Dallas down. Really good owner. Guy wants to spend the money, gets it. And you have the top five guy.

You have a no doubt guy. But if you get into the Kyrie business, I'm immediately out. I'm just out. And so that's kind of my runner up choice for that spot was Philadelphia. Because if they lose Harden, I don't know how they replace the asset. And now it's Embiid with Maxie and the expiring Tobias Harris contract and PJ Tucker. They have Tobias Harris. I don't really know what I'm looking at. And the Embiid trade request kind of looming at this point.

So I was looking at them, but it's hard to put a team that has a top five guy. Same reason you had a tough time with Dallas. At least you have that asset. So you're right. So top six was Charlotte, Chicago, Minnesota, Clippers, Wizards, Houston. It's interesting neither of us put Memphis.

Yeah, I think just because there is a version of this thing working itself out here. And when they're all healthy... It's interesting neither of us put New Orleans. Nah, it's too much talent. Even with the Zion problem.

It's a problem. Right, but who would you rather have? I'd rather have New Orleans than be Brooklyn. Yeah. I'd rather deal with the Zion problem and hope, hey, Zion's gluten-free now. He is? That's amazing.

He's down to 250. He dumped over the shot clock the other day. What? Did you see a sit down with Malika Andrews? He really understands his diet now. He does? No more bread pudding? I'm just kidding.

It's like, that's coming though. That's coming. He's going to do the sit down with somebody. He's going to talk about, oh, you know this. I finally get it. Yeah. I think Luca needs to do some of this stuff too, to be honest. Luca and Zion are there one, two in some order in there. the can you get in shape please malone's talked about it with

yokich i thought it was interesting hearing him talk about yokich was in shape but not 100 and now he's in crazy shape and can run all game and do you remember when yokich was like not fat yokich but oh my god did he just lose all this weight after the shutdown of COVID? Remember the pictures? Granted, pictures can look really, really bad, but all of a sudden he looked emaciated and you were like, oh my God, Jokic is... And now he's like, no. It's like an exempted Jokic.

Yeah, from that point on, he's been arguably the best player in the league. Did you give your succession thoughts? I listened to you. listened to van i couldn't i couldn't get enough of it i couldn't get enough of uh it and then i watched some of the episodes again this past week and i think um i this was kind of my biggest takeaways i always knew that the car thing had to come up again i didn't think it would come up as a passing kendall trying to tell him he made it

all up so he could connect with them. And then it wasn't really ever addressed of whether they believed him. I guess they kind of did. And then they were like, you're even crazier or this is insane and we don't believe you or any of that stuff. Going back and looking at episodes, I feel for parents, right? Because there's just no way you're... There's no perfect game for parents. Right now, there's stuff that you're doing that your kids are going to get pissed at you about in their twenties. And then, you know, when they're in their thirties, maybe they'll be like, Hey, they did a good job and maybe I can back off a little bit. Right. Um, but it's, it's a tough deal being a parent. And then there's just being an awful one and i think what we saw was three siblings that we were getting like a real the

culmination of the horrible parenting of them and that that's kind of what the lesson was is that you know logan kept constantly saying these kids are fucking morons we saw that video of him in the last season where he's like you guys are more annoying than my dipshit kids or my useless kids. He wasn't a good dad. He fucked with these kids all the time. The mother was terrible. So the goal was that none of them could ever win because they were all incredibly flawed and you could still see their flaws, but understand them because that would be a really shitty way to grow up, Having a father that disconnected and a mother that was arguably even worse. So that's what I thought. Good synopsis.

I'm going to miss it. This is the first Sunday in 10 weeks or 11 weeks when it wasn't on. I'm going to miss it, man. I'm really going to miss it. I, I just love the show. Uh,

just, there's so many scenes. There's just so many scenes that I didn't even realize. There's so many scenes. There's just so many scenes that I didn't even realize. We were talking about Sledgehammer, Carl. I was out and about, and some guy was like, when you referenced Sledgehammer, and I was like, dude, for whatever reason, even as a kid, we kind of knew like, hey, I think there's something about this show that makes it special.

Even as kids, we didn't have cool TV when we were little kids, but there's something about this show that makes it special like even as kids we didn't have cool tv when we were little kids but there was something about sledgehammer and so every time i see carl in a scene i like pay more attention and he's he's unbelievable man uh what did you where are you at with it other than missing it as much as i know i'm gonna miss it but well we had i listened to everything you did. They had the last episode and, uh, in Fenton,

I had to tape right after. So we're frantically taking notes. We watched. And then I watched it again that night. I watched like the last hour of it. And I was like, Oh, I missed that.

I missed that. I missed that. Then I watched it again this weekend with some distance. And the scene when they're watching the video of the dad when Carl sings the limerick, that scene was incredible. I actually, I felt like we undersold how great that scene was

when we were just reacting live off the show. And the conference room scene's insane. That's among the three craziest scenes the show's ever had. When it just, like him tackling Roman and them kind of doing a UFC John Jones-ing going for the legs.

I, those two scenes really jumped out on like the, with some distance watch. Yeah, I think Madsen telling Tom he wants to sleep with his wife was up there for me. And then how is was tom gonna handle it all and then i don't think she'd mind it either yeah greg tried to make one last play for it uh i didn't i'll admit i didn't love the last minute

shiv like nah i'm out but i think it kind of spoke to like... That was Van's biggest problem. Van was all upset about that. Yeah, I think I kind of wanted... Yeah, I think because the show, we think so highly of it. It was like, are we going to get this weird Kaiser Sose moment here? Are we going to get something that we didn't think we were going to get? And I think ultimately,

instead of them taking some huge swing and some clever ending that like no one saw coming which is really kind of unfair to hope you're gonna be able to pull that off just having shiv be like nah i'm out fuck these guys you know what the pivotal scene was that uh somebody pointed out to me and it's really it was probably a tiny bit too subtle but they go into the dad's office and kendall kendall goes behind the desk and he sits down and he puts his feet on the desk and they're talking with Stewie about something. And he says some bullshit Kendall thing and it cuts to Shiv and she's kind of like looking at him like, oh my God. Yeah. What

are we doing? It was, but I don't think they stayed on her long enough or maybe they didn't want to because they didn't want to tip off the ending. But I think somewhere in that 45 seconds, it dawned on her, this guy's not my dad. He's a fucking train wreck. What am I doing? And then at that point, it became a business decision. My husband will take over. I get the sale. I get all the money from the company, but I still get some sort of like conciliar stay and way start. It was a smarter move. I mean, she knew more than anyone.

Kendall's a disaster. So I thought it rang true, but I see Van's point that it seemed a little abrupt. Yeah, especially after they'd done this huge hard sell on us at the mother's compound. Yeah, with the blender. Right. So that scene

the meal fit for a king was was really cool because it really felt like siblings you know yeah in that in that goofy way that only siblings understand each other and everything's like on the table and nothing's too weird whereas if it weren't siblings you'd be like what the fuck's wrong with you right and so I really liked that scene, but I felt like, okay, so that was kind of a hard sell to come to this conclusion.

So the big twist is Siobhan just going, nah, I'm out. And I was like, ah, man. But then we did get that conference room scene and,

you know, it was, uh, I haven't, you know, I've put it, where would it put you? Where's your pyramid?

You know, I still think Sopranos and The Wire are a one-two, but I think it's up there for three. I need some distance. It's in the running for the three spot. Do you like Mad Men more or less than Succession? You know, that's part of why I need to do a Mad Men rewatch this summer. Have you only watched it once? I think I watched it twice.

I think there was a second time, but I need a third one. I need to dive back into it again. What's your top three? Wire, Mad Men, and it's just so hard to leave Sopranos off. It's just so hard to leave Sopranos off. It's just so hard. It's funny though on the rewatch where you're like, Tony, not a great dude. Not that this is shocking,

but he's just so dumb all the time. And you're like, oh, did I not pick up on this? But then sometimes, I don't know. I think it still has to be Sopranos. But I got really, I'll admit, I got annoyed with Sopranos at the end because they were constantly selling like the gangster side of it,

and the show was getting weirder and weirder. And I still liked it, but they would do like scenes from next week, which usually I wouldn't even watch, and they would show two guys fighting or somebody showing up to this guy's house, and then you'd show up, and it's like a fever dream episode.

And you'd go, this isn't, it's funny. You know where your bread is buttered, but you actually are trying to do way different stuff with this show. So yeah, I think Wire, Sopranos, Mad Men, Succession, Brotherhood, Showtime. One thing I liked about Succession was it actually was the right length.

Sopranos, you could have probably trimmed 15 episodes if you're doing that over again. There was some fat that could have been trimmed. There's no question. Mad Men was a little fat, but not as fat as Sopranos. I still like The Wire.

I get in fights about season five. as fat as Sopranos. I still like The Wire. I still get in fights about season five. I just don't think the newspaper thing was as bad as people make it. There's so many good things in season five. People get too caught up in the Templeton part of it. I still stand

by the season finale as well. I like that season finale because they didn't try to, they were only, they, they were reemphasizing a point that they'd made for five years that it's just going to keep happening. That's it.

The Templeton thing was a miss, but it did to me, there's a lot of other great stuff. It's five. All right, we're going to wrap it up. You're doing, you have two pods coming this week.

I have two pots coming as well. Uh, new rewatchables coming much later this week. I'm not even sure what movie we're doing. And this podcast was produced by Kyle Creighton and Steve Cerruti. We'll be back on this feed on Tuesday. Thanks,

Priscilla. I don't have.