The Bill Simmons Podcast - MJ, the GOAT. Plus, Survivor Greatness, 'Big Mouth' Season 4, MJ vs. Kobe, and Quarantine Life with J.A. Adande, Nick Kroll, and Jason Concepcion | The Bill Simmons Podcast

Episode Date: May 15, 2020

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons reads an excerpt from 'The Book of Basketball' on what makes Michael Jordan the GOAT (3:00), before he is joined by Northwestern University's director of sports journalism, J.A. Adande, to discuss covering the Jordan-era Bulls, thoughts about the ESPN documentary 'The Last Dance,' Michael Jordan’s relationship with Kobe Bryant, and more (36:48). Then Bill talks with The Ringer’s Jason Concepcion about the season finale of ‘Survivor’ (1:11:05). Finally Bill talks with actor, comedian, and writer Nick Kroll about self-quarantining, Season 4 of his Netflix show, ‘Big Mouth,’ a ‘Big Mouth’ spinoff show called ‘Human Resources,’ the flexibility of making animated shows remotely, and much more (1:34:55). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Tonight's episode of the BS podcast on the ringer podcast network brought to you by zip recruiter. I'm sure you're wondering what some of your favorite celebrities have been doing during the quarantine, whether they've been doing the bill Murray and groundhog day, learning how to be a concert pianist or whatever. Uh, while some people in businesses are branching out there in this time, there are places that are doing what they've always done. Like our presenting sponsors, zip recruiter Throughout all of this, their mission has remained the same. They're still helping people find jobs and helping growing companies hire for their teams by bringing together candidates who need employment and employers looking for great

candidates. ZipRecruiter is committed to helping our workforce stay strong. Let's work together, ZipRecruiter.com slash work together. We're also brought to you by theringer.com where we did a whole big Survivor thing this week. We're going to be talking about Survivor a little bit later on this podcast. Survivor Hall of Fame was dropped today and Survivor's Greatest 100 Moments. If you like Survivor, go to theringer.com.

Check out all the stuff we did there. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network where we just announced the latest podcast that we are dropping. It is season one of a new series called Boom Bust. And this one is Boom Bust, the Rise and Fall of HQ.

Two episodes coming May 20th. You might remember the HQ, the trivia app that for one brief moment seemed like it was going to take over the world. And then it didn't. You can subscribe on Spotify or Apple or wherever you get your podcasts. We also have a couple of our newer podcasts. They'll go on Flying Coach with Pete Carroll and Steve Kerr.

Just put up a new one this week where they had author Michael Lewis. And then we also have TV Concierge exclusively on Spotify, as well as Behind the Billions, which is the breakdown after every Billions episode by Brian Koppelman and David Levine, the showrunners and co-creators of Billions. So that is what we are up to on the Ringer Podcast Network. Coming up, the Hall of Fame pyramid essay that I wrote about Michael Jordan when I said he was the greatest player of all time. I'm going to read that to you. You'll enjoy it, I swear. I promise. That's happening. And then we're going to have Jay Adande, our old friend who's been on this podcast and the Book of Basketball a couple times, talking about the Michael Jordan doc, some of the journalism stuff in there and what it was like to cover him.

Jason Concepcion is going to come on to talk about the Survivor finale. And then last but not least, our friend Nick Kroll, he pops in and then my son crashed the Zoom at the tail end. So this is an action-packed podcast. Naturally, we're going to start it with our friends from Pro Champ. Here's the Hall of Fame pyramid essay that I wrote about Michael Jordan for the Book of Basketball's paperback edition in 2010. I only tweaked a couple small things just so it sounded better as a podcast, but this is basically what I wrote. I had him ranked number one in 2010. Guess what? He's still ranked number one. Here we go. In my lifetime, only one superstar was routinely

described like Hannibal Lecter. Michael will rip your heart out. Michael smells blood. Michael is going for the jugular. Nobody goes for the kill like Michael. They're on life support. Michael is pulling the plug. Michael will eat your liver and cap it off with a glass of Chianti.

I only made up the last line. Everything else was definitely muttered by an announcer between 1988 and 1998. And sure, we enabled the competitor that Michael Jordan became. We love the greats who care just a little more than everyone else. Just like we hate the ones who don't. Ronnie Lott, he had part of his pinky amputated in order to keep playing in the NFL. Guess what? We loved Ronnie Lott for this. Now that's a guy who cares. Tiger Woods won the 2008 US Open playing with a torn ACL. Guess what we said? That's a guy who cares. Tiger Woods won the 2008 U S open playing with a torn ACL. Guess what we said? That's a champion. That's what you do. Pete Rose. He bowled over Ray Fossey to score the winning run in the 1970 all-star game, separating Fossey's shoulder and altering his career. Well, Hey, you don't block home plate when it's Pete Rose. That's why we never judged

Michael Jordan for his competitive disorder. If anything, we deified it. The man could do anything and it was okay. From 1984 to 1991, by all accounts, magazines, newspapers, books, you name it, Jordan pulled all the same shit that Kobe did in the 2000s. And when Sam Smith finally called him out in his 1992 book, The Jordan Rules, everyone reacted like we'd react now if a gossip blog attacked Obama's daughters. Jordan couldn't be an asshole. And even if he was, we didn't want to know. By the time Kobe Bryant rose to prominence, our society had become a little more cynical. We gravitated toward tearing people down over building them up.

That's basically what we did to Kobe. Had Jordan come along 15 years later, maybe the same thing happens to him. Then again, Michael never had to find his inner Mamba like Kobe did. Michael always knew exactly who he was. Michael had to win at everything. He studied up on opponents, searched for any signs of weakness, even pumping beat writers and broadcasters for insider information. He soaked poker buddies from teammates on flights so regularly that coaches warned rookies to stay away. He lost in ping pong to teammate Rod Higgins once, bought a table,

and became the team's best ping pong player. He dunked on Utah's John Stockton once. He heard Utah owner Larry Miller scream, why don't you go pick out someone your own size? And then Michael dunked on Mel Turpin and hissed at Miller. He big enough for you? He once bribed airport baggage guys to put out his suitcase first, then wagered teammates that his bag would be the first one on the conveyor belt. He famously stormed out of a bull scrimmage once like a little kid, and only because he thought coach Doug Collins screwed up the score.

One of my favorite stories, when a team of college all-stars outscored the 92 Dream Team in a half-ass scrimmage, they puffed their chest a little bit after. Jordan started out the next day's scrimmage by pointing at Allen Houston and simply saying, I got him. Houston didn't touch the ball for two hours. That's the thing. Jordan measured everything by the result. He measured every teammate by his capacity to care about that result. He tested them constantly. He weeded out the ones who folded. Dennis Hobson, Brad Sowers,

Will Purdue, Stacey King. It's a longer list than you think. He humiliated teammates in scrimmages to reassert his dominance, punching them, bullying them, sometimes going too far. Like with the Steve Kerr punch teammate, Craig Hodges told Michael Wobon about a 1990 incident in which Scottie Pippen made the mistake of challenging Jordan in practice. Uh-oh. When Michael quote proceeded literally to score on Scottie at will said Hodges, it was incredible.. I mean, Scottie even then was one of the best players in the league and Michael just rained points on him. Scottie had to step back and say, slow up, man. End quote. For years and years, Jordan couldn't rein in that side of himself. He cared about winning, but only on his terms. He also wanted to win scoring titles, drop 50

whenever he pleased, treat teammates like he was the biggest bully in a prison block. That led Phil Jackson to adopt the triangle in a last-ditch effort to prevent Jordan from hogging the ball. And by the 1991 playoffs, Jordan found a workable balance between involving his teammates and taking over the bigger moments. The rest was history. And you know Jordan's best-ever credentials. Playoff chops, individual records, all-around honors, all of it surpasses anyone who ever played. He owns more iconic moments than anyone. The 63-point game, the 87 slam dunk contest, the shot against the 89 Cavs, the, oh, a spectacular layup in the 91 finals. Those six threes in game one of the 92 finals along with the shrug. Can't forget the shrug.

41 a game in the 93 finals. The 87 win team in 96. They won 87 games. The flu game in 97. And the last shot in 98. He demoralized eight memorable teams in eight years. The Bad Boy Pistons, Showtime Lakers, Riley's Knicks, Drexler's Blazers,

Barkley's Suns, Shaq's Magic, Riley's Knicks, Drexler's Blazers, Barkley's Suns, Shaq's Magic, Malone's Jazz, and Miller's Pacers. None of them were ever quite the same. He accomplished everything with just two elite teammates and a bunch of role players going six for six in the NBA finals, averaging a 34, six and six in 35 finals games. He averaged 31.5 points per game in Chicago peaking at 37.4 in 1987. When by the way, I only made 12 threes. He scored over 32,000 points in 930 Chicago games. He averaged 33.4 points in the playoffs. The record still by far. He won five MVPs. It easily could have been eight. He won six finals MVPs. It feels like 10. He won a scoring title, a slam dunk title,

and defensive player of the year in the same season. He's the only player who ever averaged 30 points a game. He's also first all-time in PER usage rate and win shares per 48 minutes. But here's the best Jordan stat. During those final three bowl seasons in his mid-30s, he played 304 of a possible 304 games. Astonishing. When Michael captured that last title in 1998, we all agreed this man is the greatest basketball player

we will ever see. Of course, that didn't stop us from looking for the next him. We spent the next decade anointing false successors, hyping young stars who weren't ready, overrating imitators who weren't really him. We need to stop looking. My personal belief, nobody will surpass Michael Jordan ever. And I have four big reasons why.

Reason number one, the four peaks. Most NBA players peak once and that's it. Their career year, that's what we call it. An elite few guys peak a second time. Hakeem in 90 and 94. Barkley in 90 and 93. Jerry West in 66 and 70. Shaq in 95 and 2000 and named four guys. In rare cases, the superstar peaks three different times. Bird had 84, 86, and 87. Magic had 82, 85, and 87. Kareem had 72, 76, and 80. Even Wilt had 62, 67, and 72. In each case, their 3.0 version exceeded the 1.0 and 2.0 versions, while only Jordan peaked four times. And arguably, Jordan 4.0 was better than the first three versions.

MJ 1.0 happens in his fifth and sixth seasons when he carries a weaker 89 Bulls team to the Eastern Finals during a really competitive season. In year five, he has the NBA's best all-around statistical season since the 1976 merger. 33-8-8 with 2.9 steals, 54% shooting in the regular season, then in the playoffs, 35-7-8. The following spring, he puts up a 43-7-7 in the Philly series before falling to the superior Pistons in seven. As a pure athlete and scorer, here's where Jordan peaks.

Maximum speed, maximum explosiveness, magic level respect from officials, multiple defenders trying to stop him, extreme unparalleled durability. In those two years, he plays 195, 196 games at 40 minutes a game. Unleash 89 Jordan into the current NBA with no hand checking or hard fouls,

and it's all over. He'd score 40 a game. Well, MJ 2.0 happens in the 93 playoffs after a rigorous workout routine, sculpted his body and whipped him into superior shape. Now Jordan can absorb hard fouls, stop tiring at the end of games, abuse smaller defenders than the low post,

and he's a savvier all-around player with a better sense of how to use his teammates and when to take over a game. He's even a better teammate. Instead of undermining them publicly and privately, he sticks up for his guys against Riley's Knicks, personified by the memorable and one layup where he stood over Xavier McDaniel,

yelping angrily at him. Only one problem. The man suddenly has no peers. He's the only NBA super duper star without a relative equal driving him to remain on top. There's no carrot to chase. He's just better than everybody. That puts him in a no-win situation. Once the media pressure and public attention becomes too overwhelming, Michael makes the most curious decision in NBA history. He walks away at his absolute apex, or so we thought. Because MJ 3.0, that happens during the 72-win season. Jordan shakes off the baseball rust from the two-year layoff. He rebuilds his basketball body. He plays more physically on both ends. Instead of Barry Sanders, he's Emmitt Smith.

He's picking his spots, plugging away, moving the chains, punishing defenders for four quarters. His baseball foibles had taught him to embrace his teammates, accept their faults to some degree, and adapt his own considerable skills to complement theirs. He finally understands the secret. One of many reasons why that Bulls team went 87 and 13. Amazing. MJ 4.0 happens in the spring of 1998. And naturally it's my favorite version of the four. His hops are pretty much gone. Yet Jordan makes up for it with renewed intensity and resiliency. Rarely does MJ exhibit emotion

anymore. Even game-winning jumpers are celebrated with a simple fist pump, a relieved smile. Like Ali in the mid-70s, he relies on guile, experience, memory, heart, breaking out every trick he knows, like with that famous Brian Russell push-off to win the 98 finals. But here's how great this version of Jordan is. For a single greatest moment ever, he blatantly cheated. Nobody gave a shit. I repeat, nobody gave a shit. If anything, we applauded him for his ingenuity. And yeah, it was poetic that MJ pushed off a guy named Russell to swish the shot that officially clinched his GOAT status. Jordan 4.0 had a surreal, almost mystical ability to take command on the grandest stages.

During that final bowl season, he evolved from the greatest player ever to the greatest closer ever in his collection of performances against superior Indiana and Utah teams. As he fought the effects of a third straight 100-game season, as he coaxed as much mileage as he possibly could from a 36-year-old body,

remains the single most extraordinary athletic achievement of my lifetime. Watch Game 6 of the 98 Finals sometime. Pippen's bulky back had rendered him semi-useless. Rodman, he was just about washed up. He's headed for wrestling pay-per-views. Tony Kukoc, Steve Kerr, they were there. Luke Longley, Scott Burrell, Ron Harper on one leg, that's about it. Jordan wins game six on the road basically by himself. Scores 41 of Chicago's first

83 points, manipulating the proceedings, biding his time, waiting to pounce. Down by three with 40 seconds left, MJ goes for the kill. He explodes for a coast-to-coast layup. He strips Karl Malone on the other end. He drains the game winner all in one sequence without a single teammate touching the ball. It's a fitting conclusion to the most brilliant basketball game anyone's ever played. I know LeBron James is fantastic right now, but if he's still winning championships by himself at 36 years old on the fourth version of himself, we can start talking about him and Jordan and only then. So that's the first reason nobody will ever surpass Jordan. Here's reason number two, pathological competitiveness. I can't imagine

a killer like Jordan happening again, and here's why. The NBA is too buddy-buddy now. They hang out during the summers, play Team USA together, text and email each other. It's a big circle jerk. Watch Wade greet Carmelo after an allegedly hard-fought game. They look like old roommates reconnecting

at a college reunion. The greats from Jordan's era always maintained a respectful distance, even when magic and Isaiah smooched. And that was weird. There was a coldness to it when Jordan and Barkley became close. Part of me always wondered

if Jordan sniffed out Barkley as a potential rival, a little like Russell with Wilt, or even Natasha Henstridge hunting for a mate in Species. Remember that movie? Then befriended Barkley so he could undermine him competitively. I swear that's what happened. You know what moment killed Barkley's chance to be a Pantheon guy? Game two of the 93 finals in Phoenix, where he played as

well as he possibly could have. 42 points, 13 rebounds, some dominating stretches, but Jordan exceeded him with a 42-12-9, closed the game out. And you could see it written on Barkley's face as he walked off the court. I can't beat this guy. And he couldn't. That goes back to a peculiar DNA gene that only Jordan and Russell had. They lived to vanquish. They fueled themselves by overreacting to every slight, real or manufactured. And that's how they kept winning. When Rick Pitino questioned Jordan's hamstring injury during the 89 Knicks bowl series, Jordan dropped 125 points in them in the last three games. When Orlando knocked an

out-of-NBA-shaped Jordan out of the 95 playoffs, Jordan coldly swept them a year later. And when Karl Malone lobbied for the 97 MVP, you know who didn't like that? I'll give you one guess. Michael Jordan. He made Utah pay handsomely in the 97 finals. That's just how it went. Remember how Jordan famously and openly detested Bulls GM Jerry Kraus? Well, when Kraus glowingly courted European star Tony Kukoc, you know who wrecked Kukoc in the 92 Olympics with particular fury? Yeah, Jordan and his henchmen Pippen. Both of them just took him out. Before the 89 draft, it bugged Jordan that Kraus had become infatuated with Dan Marley's potential. So he torched Thunder Dan in the 93 finals. Again, 41 a game and screamed, fuck you, Marley, as the Bulls celebrated

right after Phoenix's final miss in game six. Did Marley do anything to him? Of course not. This was all about Jared Krause's penchant for taking too much credit for the Jordan era. And really, MJ was right. Saying Jared Krause built the six-time champion Chicago Bulls is like calling Lord of the Rings a Sean Astin flick.

There are two defining stories about Jordan being a secretly hyper-competitive lunatic. Here's the first one. Game one, 92 finals, a painfully forced Drexler-Jordan storyline in full swing. And then Portland makes the mistake of mentioning their strategy to make Chicago shoot threes. Well, Jordan scores 33 points in 17 minutes. He had six threes. He outscores Drexler 35 to eight in the first half. He breaks the record for playoff threes in one half. All of this actually happened.

And the second story, that happens much later. Remember, Jordan's opponents had learned to leave him alone by the mid nineties, leading to a phenomenon unlike anything else we've witnessed before or since. Michael became basketball's version of a sleeping tiger. In a league full of smack talkers, chest thumpers, and yappers, incredibly, remarkably, he remained off limits. Even during the summer of 2001, when he'd been out of the league for three years and

Jordan was running the Wizards and reportedly mulling a comeback, a slew of NBA teams voyaged to LA to watch a few California prospects work out. Jordan was there. So was LA native Paul Pierce, who'd spent a little time with Jordan over the years because of Michael's friendship with Anton Walker, Chicago thing. At some point, Pierce started talking smack to MJ. Stuff like, you better not come back. This is our league now. We don't want to embarrass you. And Jordan was nodding happily with one of those, okay, okay, just wait faces. Finally saying, when's our first game against you guys?

I'm going to make it a point to drop 40 on you. You can almost imagine Jordan pulling out a piece of paper and adding Pierce's name to the list of guys whose butts needed to be kicked. Here's my favorite part of the story though. Pierce's coach at the time was Jim O'Brien. He overheard the running exchange and he quickly pulled Pierce away, imploring his star, never talk to him. You hear me? That's the one guy you don't talk smack to. And this was when Jordan had been retired for three full years. Three. Even then, at 39 years old, a current NBA coach considered him a viable threat who should not be angered under any circumstances. Wake me up when this happens again in my lifetime.

Okay, here's the third reason we'll never see another Jordan. Command of the room. I've been going to NBA games since I was four years old. He's the only NBA player that felt truly, legitimately, all caps famous. Seeing him in person unhinged people like they were Beatles fans in the mid-60s or something. Jordan possessed what a Boston writer named George Frazier once dubbed duende, a charisma, an Eastwoodian swagger, a sense of self-importance that can't be defined. When Jordan entered the building, nobody else mattered. The way people's expressions instantly

changed, the sounds they made, there's just never been anything quite like it. I don't know if you remember those dopey EF Hutton ads when somebody would say, my broker is EF Hutton. And he says, and then everyone else in the room would suddenly shut up and lean into here. Well, that happened with Jordan. He would swallow up the room even if 16,000 people were in it. And those reactions didn't change when he stopped playing basketball either. I went to a party once, 2006 All-Star Weekend in Houston. My friend Rich and I were smoking stogies on a not-so-crowded cigar patio, and out of nowhere, Charles Oakley saunters through the doorway, followed by a human tornado with Jordan and his posse at the epicenter. And here's what happens when MJ enters a room. It immediately becomes an entourage scene. No matter how you felt about the party leading up

to the moment, the party jumps from whatever grade to a solid A plus immediately, right away. MJ's presence validates the entire night. So that night, Jordan ambled in, glanced around, puffed on a cigar for a few seconds, traded a few barbs with oak while pretending there weren't 25 people packed around him, snapping cell phone pictures. And then within 90 seconds, they'd had enough time for a new room. Just like that, they were gone. The patio was mellow again. And as Rich said later,

it was like a gust of wind. MJ was the gust. Everyone else was the twigs, leaves, and branches flying around. So when Jordan was playing, he had a little more time to prepare for that gust. He looked around 30 minutes before game time and realized that 75% of the fans had already arrived. It was like a Springsteen crowd waiting for the lights to turn off. Every male patron with good seats had a glazed giddy, I'm important because I'm attending this important game right now, glow to them. Every female patron looked like she'd spent an extra 10 minutes getting ready. Every little kid looked ready to spontaneously self-combust. Wide-eyed teenagers stood in the first few rows, rocking back and forth, holding pens, pathetically desperate, praying against billion-to-one odds that MJ

would inexplicably leave the layup line, vault the press table, and glide into the stands to sign their autographs. Well, as soon as Jordan made his grand entrance, he stopped the place cold. Every eye shifted to him. Fans started making strange sounds. You'd see a barrage of flashbulbs going off. You'd hear squeals and cries mixed with appreciative applause. And then a slow developing roar would emerge, almost like a chain reaction. MJ was in the house. What always fascinated me was the way Jordan carried himself. He kept moving, kept looking down, kept a little half smile on his face, never broke character, even as strange palms bounced off his shoulders.

Even if somebody was screaming, Michael, three feet away, blowing out his eardrum, didn't matter. He just kept plowing forward with a tiny grin. There's something dignified about it. It always struck me, famous people are famous for a reason, and he was the best example of it. And it's not like the energy faded from there either. When Michael met the three officials before the opening tip,

they oversold his jokes. They looked like bartenders buttering up a customer for a huge tip. When Michael dispensed advice to a teammate on the bench, the other guy would nod intently like some life-altering secret was being revealed. And when he strolled toward the scorer's table for the opening tap, every conversation in the first few rows

came to a screeching halt. We all just stared at him. When he stood on the free throw line for the first time, thousands of camera flashes, I repeat, thousands, remember those, would click to capture the moment. Everyone had the same goal. I saw Michael Jordan play. Here he is shooting free throws. People will be impressed by this someday. That's how he felt. The moment always seemed bigger than you or me, as did the ongoing thrill of witnessing a vintage MJ performance, of appreciating all the little things that made him him. He never slacked. He always gave a crap. Physically, he controlled himself with a grace that nobody else quite had. Technically, perfect in every way. Perfect physique, running style, defensive technique, footwork, shooting form, everything was perfect. If he dribbled a ball off his foot or he threw a pass out of bounds, it always seemed like a fluke. Spiritually, his teammates reacted to him the same way sitcom kids react to dad. When dad comes home from work,

everyone's killing themselves to please him. Everyone's hanging on every word. I'm telling you, that was the step that always stood out more than the dunks and the breathtaking drives. I was there the last time Jordan played in Boston as a Chicago Bull, December 97. The young Celtics never had a chance. You know why? Because they beat him the last time. MJ took care of business. Then he just seemed bored by the whole night.

Honestly, that was always the best time to watch Jordan in person as he was searching for dumb challenges to keep from coasting. He never wanted to coast. So as soon as Jordan and Antoine Walker started talking trash, I remember nudging my buddy and telling him, watch this, something's going to happen. So we followed Jordan and Walker

as they kept a running dialogue going. And there was a Boston foul. And now Walker and Jordan were lined up next to each other on the right side of the free throw line. Walker had inside position. Jordan stood to his left, kept talking smack. Walker made the mistake of jawing back. Never a good idea. And I remember telling my buddy, watch this. Jordan's telling Twine he's going to beat him inside and get the rebound. Watch this. Just watch. Sure enough, as Jordan's teammate prepared to launch the second free throw, Jordan's arms started swaying with his mouth moving the entire time. You could see Walker's body tense. The ball went up. MJ somehow leapfrogged

past Walker, grabbed the rebound, jumped back up for a layup, and it all happened in one motion. And who fouled Jordan from behind to prevent the layup? Antoine Walker. We watched Michael strut and giggle his way to the charity stripe, thoroughly pleased with himself, like he just found a $100 bill in the ground. We watched Walker's head hang like that of a little kid who'd just been scolded by his parent. And we watched a Jumbotron close-up with Jordan lining up his first foul shot, an enormous grin spread across his face. His net had been made, and honestly, so had ours. But that's what makes me laugh whenever I hear guys like Wade and Kobe and LeBron compared to Michael, because nobody had moments like the one I just described. They might be close physically, athletically, but in the command of the room

sense, no way. Even during Jordan's injury-plagued return with Washington in 2001, there was one moment during his first Boston appearance that stood out when Jordan drained a crunch time jumper and looked like he might actually be heating up. He spun around and hopped back to the other end of the court, running with that distinctive gait, his elbows swinging back and forth like someone using a Nordic track. And we were roaring. I mean, we love the Celtics, but really even the slim possibility of witnessing an MJ throwback performance trumped everything else.

Jordan glanced over to everyone in my section at midcourt, his eyebrows raised, and he unleashed a defiant grin. And he melted us. He fucking melted us. Imagine a busty senior cheerleader winking at a school bus filled with ninth grade boys. Triple the reaction. And that was us. We spent the next 20 seconds buzzing and nudging each other. I don't even remember who won the game. I really don't. All I remember is this. MJ was back. MJ was on his game. MJ was feeling it.

And the possibilities were endless because some people are just larger than life. I will believe LeBron has reached MJ status as soon as he owns every set of eyes in a 17,000 seat arena for three straight hours. And as soon as he can liquidate an entire section with one smile, not a moment before, which leads me to the fourth and final reason that we'll never see another Jordan, the Jordan mystique. I'm retelling this story in the present tense because as far as I'm concerned, it still feels like it happened three hours ago. Come back with me to that same 2006 all-star weekend in Houston. And remember that Jay Adande once upon a time dubbed all-star weekend the black Superbowl. So here we go. I'm drinking Bloody Marys on a Saturday afternoon with my buddy

Sully and some friends from Boston. We're debating another round when suddenly Charles Oakley saunters into the Four Seasons bar with three lady friends, eventually settling at the table right next to us. Oakley orders a round of shots for his table

and a martini for himself. We quickly order a second round for ourselves. Where else can you drink five feet away from the real-life shaft? 20 minutes later, Jordan shows up with two more friends, stops the room cold. At first, it seems like he's just saying hello. And then we realized he's actually sitting down. His friends move them into the inside booth. That way they can block him with chairs on both sides.

Nobody can bother him. Oakley orders more drinks. We order food and drinks for our table. For all we know, we're staying all afternoon and all evening. People stream over to say hello, pay tribute to MJ, kisses ring. We're starting to realize he's like the real life Michael Corleone. And I think Oakley was his real life Luca Brazzi. At one point, Michael's agent, David Falk, takes a seat about 30 feet away, patiently waiting for an invite. He finally gives up, comes over to say hello. And he asks MJ, hey, how late did you stay out last night? Followed by MJ casually saying, 7.30, as we nodded admiringly. The drinks keep coming and coming. And occasionally, Oakley stands up and saunters around just to stretch his legs and look cool while I make

comments like, I wish he could rent Oak for parties. At one point, Oak thinks about ordering food. He stands up. He looks over at all of us eating. He notices our friend Rich's cheeseburger. He asks if it's a cheeseburger. He asks if it's good. He keeps glancing at it. He keeps glancing at it. And that's where all of us were waiting for Oak to say the words, Oak wants your cheeseburger and he wants it now. But he doesn't. He ends up ordering one for himself. That was too bad. Two solid hours pass. Everyone at Jordan's table finishes eating. Some people leave. The cigars come out. And I'm sitting there whispering, there's no fucking way the cards aren't coming out soon. It's impossible. MJ has never sat this long

in one place without the cards coming out. The man has a competitive disorder. The cards will come out. The cards will definitely come out. Almost on cue, the cards came out. They started playing a game called bid whist, which is a form of spades that's popular among NBA players. Oakley and MJ, they teamed up against two of their friends and Jordan comes alive because of course he does. And we saw it all. We witnessed his legendary competitive streak in action. Trash talking nonstop in a deep voice, snickering sarcastically, cackling with every good card, even badgering one opponent to the point that the guy seems like a threat to start crying like one of Joe Pesci's minions in Goodfellas. This isn't Corporate MJ, the one you and I know. This is Urban MJ,

the one that comes out for the Black Super Bowl, the one that made an entire league cower for most of the 90s. It finally makes sense. And I'm sitting there dying of gambling envy. I mean, what would make a greater story than me and Sully calling winners against Oak and MJ? Yeah, right. Meanwhile, the day keeps getting stranger and stranger. Around six o'clock, Shaquille O'Neal shows up with some friends wearing a three-piece suit with a vest that causes MJ to joke, I'm glad you're living up to the responsibility of the dress code. Everyone laughs a little too loudly because that's what you do when Michael Jordan makes a joke. You laugh your fucking ass off. A little bit later, an NBA assistant coach shows up. What's interesting

about this was he's wearing a red sweatshirt with a giant Jordan logo on it. Who else runs into a friend randomly wearing their clothing line? Yeah. MJ keeps getting louder and louder. He and Oakley are cleaning up with the cards. Everyone in the bar is watching them while pretending not to watch. And then suddenly it happens. MJ's wife shows up. Uh-oh. Everyone makes room for her. She sits down right next to him.

Poor MJ looks like somebody who took a no-hitter into the ninth inning, then gave up a triple off the left field wall. The trash-talking stops. He slumps in his seat like a little kid. The cigar goes out. No more hanging with the boys. Time to be a husband again. And watching the whole thing unfold, I lean over to Sully and say,

look at that. He's just like us. And he is. Just your average guy getting derailed by his wife. For once in my life, I don't want to be like Mike. That story happened in 2006, and I can still remember where everyone was sitting,

which brings us back to the Jordan mystique. He's the only celebrity who pulls that story off from beginning to end. His force of personality was just that great. So yeah,

LeBron might approach him soon. And if not him, somebody else. You will instinctively want to pass the torch to that person. That's just the way this stuff works. Again, we always want the next one to be greater than the last one. And it's impossible for the last one to keep defending the title once memories start fading. Just remember that Superstar X can't pass Jordan solely by putting up triple doubles, breaking scoring records, and winning multiple titles. They'd

have to beat a force of personality that compares to presidents and tycoons. They'd have to surpass a competitiveness better suited for a dictator. They'd have to keep peaking well after we believe they could keep peaking. They'd have to remain the coolest person in the room long after there's any tangible reason for them to hold that title. And they'd have to pull off stories with endings like, look at that, he's just like us. Michael Jordan was the greatest basketball player of all time, as well as the most memorable basketball player of all time. And maybe you need to be both. So that's it. If you want to read the entire book of basketball,

it's 10 years old, but you can find it, Apple Books, Kindle, Amazon, wherever you got your books. It's still out there. It's still 700 pages. It's still got a lot of stuff in it. All right, we're going to have Jay Adande in one second. First, the last few months have taught us what's important in life.

It's also taught us what we need to eliminate or change. It's the same for business. What are the changes you need to make? Do you have a hairball of multiple software systems when you could streamline with just one? All you need is NetSuite by Oracle, the world's number one cloud business system. Finance, HR, inventory, e-commerce,

everything you need all in one place. So you save time, money, and headaches, whether you're doing a million or hundreds of millions in sales. NetSuite gives you visibility and control so you can manage every penny with precision. NetSuite even surveyed hundreds of business leaders and assembled a playbook of the top strategies

they're using as America reopens for business. Join over 20,000 companies who trust NetSuite to go faster with confidence. Receive your free guide, seven actions business need to take now, and schedule your free product tour at netsuite.com slash BS. Get your free guide.

Schedule your free product tour right now, netsuite.com slash BS. All right, here's Juite.com slash BS. All right, here's J.A. Adande. My old friend J.A. Adande is here, director of sports journalism at Northwestern. We used to work together at ESPN. You might've seen him in The Last Dance,

a basketball documentary that everybody on the planet has watched. We are now heading into the final two episodes. What's been your biggest surprise through eight episodes? The moment that shocked me was the audio of Jordan sobbing after he won the 96 finals on Father's Day. I'd seen that clip tons of times of him on the floor with the basketball, clutching the basketball. But hearing that, that just took me to a different place. So that was something that was completely new and unexpected for me, even though I'd seen that video before.

What about you? That's up there. That definitely was up there. I was surprised. We talked about it a little on previous pods, but just him getting so emotional about what it took for him competitively and how if he couldn't handle it, that's on you. He never asked anyone to do anything that he wasn't doing himself.

And then him crying and trying to figure out what made him so emotional. And the theory that, uh, we talked about where Scylla was just like, is that it's almost the emotional cost of, of, uh, what you lose with your family and the things you give up

because you're wired that way. And that was my interpretation of it. Do you feel differently? Yeah, it's the cost. It's the price. It's the fact that he probably never thought about why. You know, he did, but to really look back and think about it,

and I think that's one of the biggest things that this documentary offers is that it allows the two decades to pass and the perspective, which is something that we didn't get. And this team was so scrutinized to the extent that any team could be scrutinized at the end of the 20th century, you know, through every available medium at our disposal, they were scrutinized. But even as they were discussing it so much, I don't think they had the chance to really sit back and analyze it while they're going through. And that's something that clearly everybody has done now. And I think that's bringing out the emotion. And you were in Chicago during the first three-peat, at least the last couple of titles of it. So you're in the middle of it there as his fame and the team's fame is going to a whole other another level and then you're in la writing columns during the shack cobia era which was another heavily scrutinized team and then i think

the the other two heavily scrutinized teams of this century were probably the lebron wade bashi and then the uh where curry's warriors went from 2015 on and i was at all eight of those finals too so you know i well actually well, I actually, I take it back. I wasn't at the last warriors, warriors, Cavaliers finals, but the other seven that LeBron was in, I was at. So the bull scrutiny, I still feel like was at a whole other level, especially after he came back from baseball and how that team was treated by everybody those last three years. They were honestly like the Beatles or the Rolling Stones or something. I've never seen anything like that since.

Would you compare even like Shaq, Kobe Lakers or Miami or Golden State? Would you put it even in the closely the same class? No, and things were different that there were these micro economies that sprung up around those teams. Remember the heat index that ESPN.com did? Yeah, controversial.

You had this thing that this surge of people being hired specifically to cover those teams. One thing that the Bulls had in the 90s, I'll give my old boss Rick Jaffe at the Chicago Sun-Times credit for, was the hyper coverage of the playoffs. Right. So the playoffs would come around and all of a sudden you'd have six, seven, eight people covering the team on the road in the playoffs, special sections. So that was new, and that was the extent of the coverage back then. And then the heat comes along, and ESPN assigns three or four people just to cover that team year-round, FoxSports.com, CBS Sports. So that was a new element that came along, and then obviously the social media aspect, too, that came along. The bloggers, there were more people around these teams, the LeBron Heat and the Curry Warriors.

There were more people around that. There was this, again, this micro economy that sprung up around those teams. That was different. But the fact that everything at the disposal, everything that was available, they didn't have the full attention of the entire internet. But those 90s Bulls teams had the full attention of all the media that was available. Sports Talk Radio, which was new, ESPN, which had really just risen to the prominence that it had in the late 90s, and then everything that newspapers were doing. So, you know, today you don't have the New York Times, Washington Post, LA Times, Dallas Morning News, et cetera.

You don't have all those national newspapers, the Boston Globe, sending writers to chronicle these playoff runs. You did back then. When the Jordan rules comes out, and that's the first time the hood is kind of lifted on this team, and people are like, wait, Jordan's kind of lifted on this team. And people are like,

wait, Jordan, Jordan's kind of an asshole. What's going on here? Um, and that was the, you know, up till then you see the access that journalists had from the late seventies into the early nineties really starts to shift. Do you feel like that was like the turning point for the media and professional sports when that book comes out? I don't know if it was the book that did it, but certainly it came at the end of an era. And mid-90s, and it wasn't necessarily Jordan, but it was a lot of his stablemates in the David Falk camp. So fellow David Falk clients like Patrick Ewing and Alonzo Mourning, they just stopped talking to the media before the games. It used to be commonplace.

You walk in the locker room and you could talk to Michael Drip before the game. Certainly could talk to Magic Johnson before games and mid nineties. And a lot of those guys, and it felt like Ewing and Alonzo were some of the early ones that just say, I'm not talking before the game. I'm not going to be available for the game. And so that changes.

And so you lose some of that chit-chat time and the time to get to know those guys in a little bit of a casual situation. Also, you're starting to have more media members in there. Bill, the first All-Star game I did in 1994, All-Star weekend, the locker room was open before the game. And you just get some great interactions. I'll never forget Shaq's getting dressed and he's lacing up his shoes. He turns over to Dominique Wilkins like, Dominique, man, how long you been in the league? He says, you know, since 52, whatever it was.

Shaq says, damn, man, I used to watch your ass on TBS. And just little fun little moments like that that you could capture. You do see that in this, but only the Jordan documentary, the last dance camera crews in there with Magic and Michael are in the locker room. You can notice there's, camera crews in there with Magic and Michael were in the locker room.

Yeah. You can notice there's no other media in there in 98. It used to be any media member with a credential could be in the locker room

before the game, before the All-Star game. Well, you also had the travel changes in the 90s too. That's when everybody started getting their own planes.

Right. You know, you read the books from the 70s and even most of the 80s. Sometimes the reporters are on the same planes with these guys trapped in a gate. And on the same bus going back and forth. Yeah. Or they're at a hotel bar or whatever. And now there's such a clear delineation in every respect. These guys, the players leave the arena, they get it, they get on the bus, they go to the the plane they're at the hotel like they don't

interact with anybody and they just put their headphones on that's the whole other thing the headphones era yeah yeah that changed it as well remember for a while the headphones were banned coming in when they tried to do the uh oh yeah the dress code one of the things was no headphones because they they didn't want their players to seem disconnected from everyone now the headphones i mean they have a headphone partnership right so it's part of the look, the expectations. So before you came on, I read, uh, I read the thing I wrote about Jordan for the book of basketball, the whole pyramid essay. And one of the big pieces was the command of the room piece with him that I always felt like, if you're going to talk about greatest ever, you have to factor that in with him because there was,

when you're in the room with him, all were on him there was just something different about him but you've you've been around some other special guys you were around you know you were writing about Shaq and Kobe Shaq at like the peak of his Lakers fame Kobe as he's starting to get there and a bunch of other NBA stars was Jordan in a class by himself for you in that respect? Completely separate. My phrase was he would tilt the room. When he was in there, it felt like the whole room was tilted toward him. I'll tell you two stories.

One, we're in the Bay Area for the All-Star Game in 2000. Game was in Oakland, but all the activities were in San Francisco. So we're at, I forget the name of that hotel. It's on top of one of the hills there. And I remember in the basement of this hotel, the convention room areas, and I'm standing there by the staircase. And all of a sudden, there's just this sense I get in the room. And the activity level picks up, and it feels like there's an approaching thunderstorm or something, and there's just a buzz. And I just thought, I've been around enough. I said, Michael Jordan's here.

And before I even saw him, I just could tell he was in the room. And sure enough, here he comes. And there's this group of people surrounding him. And it's just this little seat or it's like a boat charging through the seat. And he comes by and I was standing by a staircase. And I said, hey, Mike, what's up? And he walks by me and I thought he ignored me or didn't hear me or something. And I realized it was a strategy. He gets past me, climbs past me on the staircase, reaches back, shakes my hand and say, Hey, how are you doing? And keeps walking. What he did was he prevented me from stopping. He acknowledged me, but he did so in a way that I couldn't stop him and chit chat. He was so skilled at moving through rooms and he had just mastered it that he could

get through and he didn't ignore me, but he made it to the point that I couldn't talk to him. Another example, to me, it wasn't quite the same. I was in this club in LA. There were two parts of the club. There was a front and a back end to kind of go down this narrow hallway. And I start walking down the hallway and all of a sudden Shaq shows up at one end of the club. There was a front and a back end to kind of go down this narrow hallway. And I start walking down the hallway and all of a sudden Shaq shows up at one end of the hallway and there's all these people around. So now you can't leave from that exit.

And I turn around to go the other way and Jay-Z's at the other end and all these people are there. So like I got blocked in the tunnel, but it still wasn't the same. I've never experienced where you could tell someone was in the room before you could even see them. And that was Michael Jordan.

The only other person that I've seen who was at least a little bit like it, and it's for a totally different reason, was Barkley. Because Barkley, people just gravitated toward him. And if you were ever at a bar, which I know you've been with Barkley, or a restaurant or wherever,

he's the Pied Piper. Absolutely. And everybody feels included. He might run into 50 people over the course of two hours and every person is going to feel like they've had some meaningful sort of one minute interaction with them. I've never seen anything like that either. Jordan was different. Jordan was like Clint Eastwood coming through. You were like, Oh my God, what's going on? But Barkley, Barkley is that, that's like its own category. He's got to be the leader of that. And the thing is he, he revels in it, right? Charles Barkley loves being Charles Barkley. And that's a key difference between he and Michael is Michael felt trapped by being Michael. And, you know, and he talks about this

in the documentary about how he's stuck in a room. He can't go out to dinner. He can't go out. It's funny. I went out and I did something with the Bulls and the phenomenon with that 95-96 team when I was at Washington Post. I went and spent a couple of days with them. And Michael said, I'm starting to get out and go to restaurants a little bit more. So I'm just not inside the same hotel rooms all the time. I said, what about going to the mall? He said, I'm not ready for that yet. Can you imagine Michael Jordan going to the mall? You'd have to rent it out. Off the table for him, right?

He couldn't do it. There's actually a story here in Chicago recently about how he used to have to call up the grocery stores and ask them to stay open late for him. So they'd close it down and then he would go in after hours to shop because he couldn't go in and shop for groceries, especially in Chicago in the 90s, it would be insane.

That was the thing when I saw the cut of this in the late 2000s. That loneliness was the thing that jumped out to me the most other than him yelling at teammates and stuff. Oh man, I didn't realize his life was just him hanging out with four security guards. It goes into that in the ninth episode

even more than that. It was such a strange way. Kobe was lonely in a different way, it felt like. He chose to be. Yeah, right. It was such a strange way. Kobe was lonely in a different way. It felt like, yeah, right. He, he was just like him and his,

his wife and that was it, but he didn't really have a lot of friends on the road. And so it was a little bit similar to Michael in that regard. And that the closest people to Kobe were his security, but Kobe was different because he, he came in and he was so much younger than everybody. Yeah. So that was different for him.

Michael didn't have, but Michael had that disconnect that they talked in the earlier episodes was these guys were all out trying to get drugs and, you know, get wasted and whatever. Right. And he was trying to, you know,

climb the ladder and be the best basketball player he could. So there was that disconnect. Michael didn't have any teammates. That's a key difference between them is that Michael comes in. He's immediately the best player on the team. And it's a matter of him then finally surrounding him with guys that he could play with kobe comes in they're loaded with talent loaded with older guys and you know the friction came from kobe thinking that he deserved to be at the top of the list ahead of all those guys who had already done stuff in the league.

We haven't talked since the Kobe Memorial when Jordan gave, I thought, a really, really great speech. I was so impressed. It was so different than his Hall of Fame speech. Did you know the extent of their relationship? Because I got to be honest, I did not. I did a little bit. And it was a little something that Kobe let me in on that. He told me one time that, yeah, you know, we we talk. to admit it publicly because I think he didn't want people to know that he was seeking advice and that wanted Shaq to mentor him and Kobe was resistant and they were wired so differently that it would never work. And you and I talked about that on the Shaq podcast, but Kobe and Michael were wired the same way. And I think Michael appreciated the fact that Kobe came to him and said, look, I want to learn from you. And, um, you know, I think Kobe was thrilled and flattered that Michael would take the time and

really choose to speak to him as not quite a peer, but as someone that he could relate to. Well, the other important piece of that is Michael was on his way out of the league at that point, so he wasn't threatened by Kobe the way he would have been five, six years earlier. He would have sniffed him out as a potential rival and be like, I'm not helping you. And it was fun. That's one of the fun things for me is how dismissive he was in the locker room before the 98 game.

Little Laker boy, little Laker boy is going to come and take all the shots. That was pretty funny. But then they got to know each other pretty well. Something I took out of the memorial. So, you know, we saw the Jordan influence on Kobe, but I'm amazed at Kobe's influence on Michael. And Michael's saying stuff at the memorial like, I want to be a better person and I want to, you know, I can't wait to get back to my kids. I've never heard him talk like that. And Michael being philosophical about life, that's something you don't hear. And to think that Kobe Bryant brought that out of them and moved him so much that, you know, we were all thinking that here comes another round of crying Jordan memes, but I'd never heard Michael talk about his wanting to be a better person, which,

you know, you'd think we'd all want to do that. But like Michael, it's evident in this documentary. He didn't care about what type of person he was. He cared about what type of basketball player he was. He wanted to be a winner, but thinking that he wanted to be a better person because of kobe i thought wow that is a major impact a major tribute to kobe and because i

think it built because kobe did one thing michael never did kobe found happiness after basketball i think kobe was much better adjusted after basketball than michael ever was and michael is to this day. And I think that's one of the reasons why he was so moved. It was like, okay, maybe I can find what Kobe found. And that's a way to be happy without stepping onto a basketball court and knowing that I'm the best player on that court. Well, in a lot of ways, it's like what happened with Gretzky. Gretzky, same thing, like searching, has been a coach, he's been a part owner like doing all these different things but never seems like he's found like his uh his one thing i thought with the jordan kobe

stuff normally i'm suspicious when people talk about how close they were or whatever especially when one of the two people has died and i there was some stuff that happened after kobe died where you're just kind of listening to some of these people going, Oh, stop it. Yeah. Yeah. You were, you weren't nearly as close as whatever. That was the, uh, the reverse where we actually learned like, Oh shit, these guys were way closer than any of us do. And then, you know, Jason hair who did the last dance documentary, he had already, uh, interviewed Kobe, you know, and, and had that part earmarked. But to hear Kobe talk about, I don't win my five titles without Michael,

stuff like that, like, Kobe didn't talk that way. He never said shit like that. I'd never heard him give that much credit to anybody. So I was shocked by that. I don't know how you felt. I was. I had one interview with Kobe where he talked about how similar he and Michael were. And it was interesting to me because he really tried to avoid the comparisons, even though he brought them on.

He got so sick of it that he would go out of his way to avoid talking about it. But there was one time when he went there and it was triggered by when I mentioned something that Michael had said about him, about something he saw in Kobe that reminded him of himself, which was the desire to separate himself from his peers or the people that were supposedly his peers. And that just got Kobe going about, you know, Michael and I do it this way. And, you know, we both were scorers first. And, you know, we weren't about trying to get everybody involved.

And maybe people don't like it, but that's the way we're wired. And I'd never heard of him put himself on the same plane as Michael, the way he did then. And maybe he felt the license to based on their conversations. That was before I knew about how close they really were. But that always stood out to me, the one and only time where I really heard Kobe compare himself to Michael. Well, I always love asking you this question. How did you feel about the journalism pieces of The Last Dance? you have Jordan and his side or EPs of the doc that I call these doc commercials when they're in the wrong hands where it's like,

yeah, this guy has a doc and it's like, but he's also going to be in charge of it. And it's going to, it's going to delve into no areas. That's going to make this person uncomfortable, make them look bad. This one, you know, if you're talking about a delving into uncomfortable areas scale, it's like an eight out of 10. Like they get into his dad's death. They get into the gambling stuff. They avoid his family, at least through the first eight episodes,

completely. That seems like that was the only third real topic. But for the most part, you feel comfortable with how they handled this stuff? Yeah, and I just think you have to start from the premise that it's not journalism and it is i mean his people are listed all

throughout the credits the very premise of it think about it bill that this the agreement the only way this footage was shot was under the condition that it would only be aired with michael jordan's and i'm sure some of the other principles approval. So from the get-go, that's not journalism, right? You would never authorize a work of journalism in which the subject gets final approval on whether or not it even appears. So I think that the framework was established early on that it wasn't going to be journalism. It wasn't going to be a true documentary. That doesn't mean it doesn't document some important historical things. For example, getting him and David Stern on the record about whether or not there was a gambling suspension. I think it's important for that to be said for the record. And now we have them. I'm not sure we ever had them so packaged and presented for you. And just getting his perspective on all this, getting his side. So it's not journalism, but that's okay. Guess what? There's a myriad of podcasts and columns and television shows to correct any historical flaws that there might be in this or omissions, I'd say more omissions and flaws. It's not like that doesn't exist. It's not like we can't go out here and provide a counter narrative to what he's saying. Not as many people will see it and

hear it, but we all have the freedom to say, well, actually it was like this. So it's just one side and it's a side that we haven't heard to this extent before. So that's the value in it. And so I don't get upset that it is one sided and that he has home court advantage in the last word, like that, that Peyton back and forth while hilarious, I don't think it's completely accurate.

Gary Payton did do a good job of defending him in the finals and it did alter that series for a while. And I think you said it, that it changed the way we talked about this team because they didn't sweep to complete the 72 wins. So that's all true. You know, as much as Michael wants to laugh at it and say the glove, which I'll never look at those two words the same again, the glove. You know, so that's not quite accurate, I think, but it fits the narrative. The better answer would have been, look, we had just been in the spotlight

for eight straight months with everybody coming at us. We had tried to break this record. We were all tired. And I don't feel like we were playing our best basketball by the end of that playoffs. We were pretty worn down. And the same thing happened in the next year in 97. It was...

Same thing happened to the Warriors. You know, they won 73 games and then they almost lose to the Thunder and then they just run out of gas at the end of the finals. And LeBron picked up steam and that was that. Yeah.

I said on a previous pod how I thought in the all-time tournament, I thought the 2017 Warriors would be my one seed. I don't know who's going to win, but I just feel like with the threes and the offense just going against whatever other team in history, it would be just too hard for people to figure out. What do you think? I mean, I don't know what they do with Shaq, for example. And then you've got Kobe and some other guys on the perimeter to defend some of their perimeter players.

I just can't pick against a team with Michael Jordan in it. If we're doing a best-of-seven series, I've got to pick one of the teams with Michael Jordan on it. So which team? I'd say the 92 team. And B.J. Armstrong, I thought, was great about that in the documentary. He says, in 92, Jordan wasn't playing basketball. He just knew how to win. And I remember watching that team and it reminded me of

the eighties Lakers teams. It probably would have reminded you of the Celtics teams. You know, I didn't get to see those teams that much on the West coast before a league pass, but I imagine it was the same when they knew how to win and they got that, you know, they could just play at 80% for, you know, 40 minutes and then for about six minutes, just turn it up and play at 95%.

And then that was it. They just had to play six minutes a night. And that BJ's expressed that sentiment really well. That 92 team had that. Yeah. It's funny. Deep dive in all the other games. And I watched a ton of them

because what else are we going to do? I was so impressed by those first three teams, that version of Jordan versus what came out. I personally enjoyed the second three-peat version of Jordan more because he's in that mid-70s Ali stage. Right. He's just so much craftier, and the odds are more against him.

He's more human. So I liked that version more, but that, that some of the shit he was doing in 91, 92 and 93 is just unbelievable. Like people have no chance. He's doing whatever he wants. And he's just going over people.

Right. Yeah. You couldn't stop him. Like you physically couldn't stop him back then. I also, I kind of like Horace Grant more than Rodman. I got to say, I mean, he's a Grant more than Rodman. I got to say. I mean, he's a better offensive player and he can defend all 94 feet of the court,

which Rodman wasn't trying to do. Rodman was just trying to get rebounds and, you know, wear a bow into the game. Yeah, and he was a loose cannon. And you're worried about, is this the game Rodman self-combusts? He gets a technical, he kicks a camera, whatever. Horace was just doing his thing. Horace was the guy I thought who got the least amount of shine compared to what his value was in this documentary.

I thought they needed another 10 minutes of it, but we know why that happened. Yeah, exactly. I'm surprised they gave Horace as much time on this as he got, you know, and that he sat down and spoke with him. I also got to give credit to Isaiah Thomas for showing up, even though he knew Jordan had home court advantage in this. You know, the fact that Isaiah even showed up

and tried to make his case, you know, and it led to some of the great moments in the documentary as well. You know, there's been some anti-Isaiah stuff. And it's exactly what I knew was going to happen with him, where people are going through the basketball reference now, and they're looking at his stats. And it was like,

look, I'm not even having this argument because I was there. Like Isaiah, if he wanted, we could have scored 28, 29 points a game easily. He at least would have put up Iverson numbers and was a much better playmaker and could go by anybody he wanted was also playing in an era

where if he drove to the lane, he's getting knocked down. You're just getting knocked down period. So I don't know. He's going to be the lost guy from that era and it's too bad. I thought the most egregious part of the recent ESPN rankings, the top 74 was that stretch where it's like Isaiah behind Iverson and yeah, I couldn't even look at it. I heard about that. I was like, I'm out. I'm not even looking at this list. I mean, it actually gets better as, as you go along. Like, I think the top 10 or 12, even Bob Ryan,

Bob Ryan said he had no problem with the top nine, you know, at least the, you know, maybe he might quibble slightly with the order, but he said he thought he got the top nine. Right. But like, yeah, that Isaiah thing is just egregious. And like 40 spots below Steph Curry? No, I mean, I think if you're ranking the point guards, it's Magic 1, Isaiah 2. And I've yet to see or

read anything that changes that form. Point me to the guards that had championship teams built around them that went two straight. Yeah, and that were like six feet. You know, that I can look at eye to eye. It's very rare. Jordan changed it to make it where the focal point could be a shooting guard,

but it's still few and far between where you have guys below 6'6 that win NBA Finals MVP. And Isaiah is one of them. And so that's very telling to me that a guy six feet or six one could be the MVP of a championship team. Yeah, I mean, and Kareem's the other one who's starting to lose historical steam

as the years pass. Meanwhile, he won six MVPs in 10 years and was the 85 finals MVP. And like, you know, we left the 80s like, wow, Kareem. And now it's like, ah, Kareem, are we sure? It's, you know, and honestly, I really do feel, I don't think it was the number one reason Jordan did this doc,

but I don't think the timing can be understated where LeBron comes out of 2016 with that title and everybody going LeBron, LeBron, LeBron, LeBron. And then miraculously, that's the year Jordan's like, hey, I wonder if I should finally do this doc. I don't think it's a coincidence. Absolutely not. It's the same reason he came back in 2001.

He retired and he sees all of a sudden, oh, Kobe Bryant, oh, Vince Carter, all that. And he says it. There was that Washington Post magazine story where he's basically saying like, yeah, I'd like to test myself against these guys and see what I got. And he was still itching and he could do something about it and i think he

learned that the answer was like no you're 40 years old that's it it's their league now you know but he had to get that one last itch out of the way and this was his version of that you know now he knows obviously he can't come back and compete against these guys but boom he can drop 180 hours of behind the scene footage and, you know, multiple interviews and let people know. And I think it had the intended effect. You know, I've spoken to some younger people who, my students and some other people weren't around and they're saying, wow, now I see.

It's hilarious. Isn't it great? Yeah. And it's fun. Bill, I compare it to when we were kings. I think you might've talked about this too. You know, the Ali that we saw wasn't the Muhammad Ali.

Maybe you might've, you might've watched them a little bit earlier than I did, but you know, by the time I'm seeing these fighting, like Ernie Shavers and Spinks and, and Holmes and like, that's not true Muhammad Ali. So I didn't get to see it.

So I didn't get it until when we were Kings comes out and you get a, you know, just a full filtered or unfiltered behind the scenes look at muhammad ali at his peak and you think wow okay now i see and i think this is that for the jordan era and for this generation getting to see the goats you know the muhammad ali of their times at least in terms of greatness his sport, and seeing him in a way that they could only maybe heard about, but now they're seeing. Yeah, it's great.

You were both surrounded by young people, and it's been interesting to see the impact on it. You got them running from your house. Yeah, I mean, all of it. Plus, we have a lot of young people at the ringer, and they were always like, LeBron's their guy, because they weren't there for Jordan. Have they changed their mind? Have they come around? people at the ringer and they were always like LeBron's their guy because Jordan, you know, they weren't there for Jordan and I get it. It seems like the under 30 people, this is, you know, and ironically with the documentary, now we're getting to 97 and 98, like they haven't covered the flu game. And, uh, and cause we went into the last

two bowl seasons thinking this is probably the best player we have ever. Like we're pretty sure. And then it was like he just dropped the mic those last two years. And then by the end of it, we're like, nobody's ever talked about this. Like, let's just let's all make a pact. We're shutting this down if somebody tries to go at this. But, you know, it's just the way this stuff works. Has your profile raised from the doc?

Has his profile? No, yours. I mean, you're in it a bunch of times where people are like, hey, man, I saw you in the doc. Yeah, I mean, this sets the record, especially because it's multiple. So I've never done or never had as many requests for podcasts and radio hits

and television appearances. This is a new personal record for me. Wow. It surged around Kobe Bryant's death, but that was just a very intense focus for a couple of days. This has been a full month now of, can you come on? Can you do this? Can you do that? Anytime you call, of course, I'm going to be on it.

I've always been thrilled and honored to be on your podcast. Thank you. I've always enjoyed doing them, but I've had a ton ton and I've had to say no to a lot as well. But yeah, it's certainly raised the profile. I think it probably might have helped the students. I mean, the students, that's the thing. I mean, they're old enough to see me on Around the Horn, but it's just an honor in my career and one of the highlights of my career, honestly, Bill, to be a part of this. More people have watched this than have watched me on anything before. I've never appeared on anything that was seen by six million people.

So just the visibility, I'll probably never, I really doubt I'll ever touch this again. So just being a part of it, even I probably have a total of 90 seconds of screen time, but 90 seconds for 6 million people goes a long way. So it's been really cool. Bill, have you seen the odds on the, the last dance final episodes? No, you're gambling guys.

So I got this from a bet online.org. The over under on the, on whether the hit 6 million viewers for nine and 10, I'd bet the over on that. Although episode eight was the lowest, the least viewed episode so far. I think it was like 5.8 million. So I want to take that in consideration. But I think the finale, the finality of it,

will bring it out. First Person's shown, Phil Jackson 3-2, Jerry Krause 2-1, Scotty Pippen 3-1, Reinstorf 4-1, Rodsman 5-1. I might bet on Reinstorf there Especially at 4-1 But people Too many people Have already seen the screeners

That's true I just like betting On professional wrestling My advice would be Don't bet on this How many people Will be shown with a cigar On their mouth

Over under three? Ah that's over three Yeah you know They're winning championships So you're going to see A lot of people With cigars in there So you wouldn't take

Any of these bets You think it's all too faded out there. No. It's not shady to me. Plus, if I bet on it, people will be like, oh, you knew the director. You had the inside track out of it. Have you seen the last two? I saw nine. I didn't see ten. Well, they just finished ten on Saturday.

I know. Yeah. It wasn't supposed to go when it's going. I think they did a really nice job of getting it going. I want to have you back at some point to talk about the pandemic and what it's meant to schools and teaching and all that stuff, but we can do that on a different podcast. Jay Adande, pleasure. Glad you're safe and well. Thanks, Bill. Good to see you. Shout out to Ken Reeves, White Shadow.

Yeah. All right. We're bringing in Jason Concepcion in one second. First, with all the uncertainty in the world, feeling safe at home has never been more important, which is why I want to talk to you about Simply Safe Home Security. Longtime friends of our show, and for good reason, Simply Safe has made it easy to finally get comprehensive protection for your home. No technician or salesperson that needs to come out and disrupt your house. You don't need to pay any outrageous monthly fees or sign into your contract. Just order online and set it up yourself in under an hour. Your home is protected 24-7 with emergency dispatch for break-ins, fire, and more, all

for just 50 cents a day. And we're not the only fans of SimpliSafe. U.S. News and World Report's named SimpliSafe best overall home security of 2020. Go to simplisafe.com slash BS. Get a free HD camera for my listeners. That's simplisafe.com slash BS. SimpliSafe with two I's. Use it to make sure they know that our show sent you

from SimpliSafe and all of us here wishing you safety and good health. All right, let's talk survivor. All right. Bringing in Jason Concepcion from the ringer. He hosts a binge mode podcast with Mallory Rubin. More importantly, um, he's on a pivotal rewatchables next week as we break down Armageddon, one of the most important movies of the last 30 years.

Absolutely. And a movie that is becoming more and more apt as we head toward our own personal Armageddon survivor. Yes. All stars. Yes. What was it called? Winners take all winners.

Winners at war. Winners at war. Winners at war. Very satisfying season. Tony emerges as the champion. And Riley McAtee on The Ringer today said he cemented his position as the male goat of Survivor. Sandra was the female goat. Tony's the male goat.

I never understood the Sandra thing. Somebody who's just useless in challenges winning two titles almost seemed like bad for everybody else and not great for her. Tony's winning challenges. He's outwitting people. Is this the best survivor ever? Um, I think that he is the best ever. Yeah. I think he's the goat.

Uh, you know, Sandra, you could, the argument I would make was it, uh, and it also, it makes it more impressive that she never had challenges to lean on. Tony, it was the all-around game. Like, this season, everybody's a champion. The competition is at a high. They added in the fire token, so there's this entire other economy to manage. You're getting disadvantages and advantages thrown at you from Edge of Extinction. And Tony managed all of that. Tony,

like Tony overcame everything that came in him. He controlled the game. He blindsided people. And yet no one ever got mad at him or held anything against him. Never had a vote cast against him. And that was amazing. Dominated the game the entire time i think he has cemented his legacy as the best ever and you know what a lot like you know obviously the last

dance is a huge uh driver of of stories right now much like jordan he came back with another facet to his game you know jordan came came back with the mid range fadeaway, right? Tony came back after his first season and after kind of a washout in Game Changers. In his first season, Tony would betray people. But the way he would do it with his allies is he would goad them into making a move on him first. This season, Tony rode with his allies, allowed them to make decisions even if he disagreed with it, and that gave him the capital down the line to make decisions himself and or betray his allies. For instance, this episode we last saw, he allowed Ben and Sarah to to drive the decision not to split votes against Natalie,

even though he believed and he was right that Natalie had an idol and that allowing his allies to drive that decision allowed him later on to be like, I'm making this decision. I gave you that one. Now I'm allowed to make this one. And that was an evolution of his game. So you're saying that was his mid-range fall away jumper, the putting the onus on the other players to fuck up. And then he comes in and saves the day and he looks like the hero. Well, yeah, yeah. And that's like the uncharitable way of putting it.

The charitable way of putting it is he really stood by his alliances this time in a way that built trust. And I think that was, you know, crucial for a player who, you know, in his first season, swore on his badge, swore on his father's life, swore on everything under the sun and then stabbed everyone he could in the back. He also, you know, he really mastered the hiding in trees or hiding in bushes thing, which I don't know. I I've seen probably 29 or 30 of the 40 seasons. I don't remember anybody really taking that to the level that he took it. I mean, I would say to me, the thing he did in game changers, which is actually bury himself in the ground near the water where

the water jugs were to me that was much more insane it's like you're literally underground yeah uh he's just taken spying two levels hither to before unseen i i would i'm waiting for someone to to take tony's techniques and use for themselves. Like he's really an innovator in the space of spying. Right. Well, and much like Michael Jordan doesn't seem like he needs sleep. Dude, can just go 24 hours a day. He's just just good. He is like up all the time, scheming, scheming, scheming. And then that's why he's so hard to beat because the guy gets up at like three in the morning to go look for idols with no clues, is constantly wondering what's happening next,

is thinking about what his next move might be. Sarah said in one of the confessionals last night that she does a lot of calming Tony down. And I can imagine there's a lot of footage that didn't make the final cut of Tony just like becoming like crossing over the edge of of watchful into full paranoia and Sarah having to talk him back. He was amazing. It was one of the best start to finish seasons I've ever seen anyone put together. What was crazy about it was it was clear halfway through the season.

He was the biggest threat in the game. And in the first part of the season, everyone's like, we got to get rid of Boston Rob. We can't let Boston Rob run the show. And then Tony's just running the show basically from the moment that the one episode where it seemed like they're going to turn on him and get him out. And he flipped it, handled it beautifully. And then from that point on was running everything. And nobody kind of looked at each other and said,

well, wait a second. Why don't we just get rid of this guy? He doesn't even have immunity. It's one of the most puzzling things about this run is everybody understood that Tony is a, in your face, aggressive on all the time player who will absolutely lie to

you. And yet they couldn't put together a coalition to take him out until it was too late when Kim tried and then she got it flipped on her. Well, it seemed like there was a fear factor, right? It was like if you cross him and he finds out I'm done. So I don't I don't want to do that. It's too risky. Well, much like Russell, he's got this reputation and I think well-earned as we saw of always having something in his pocket. He's always got an idol in his first season. He had multiple idols and he used them almost like, like a, like a mugger uses a finger in, in the pocket of his sweatshirt, you know, like stick them up. He didn't actually use the idols.

He said, he just brought them out and said, hey, I got my idol here and here it is, and I'm ready to use it. And since then, when you think about Tony, you always have to wonder what's he got? What's he got? What could he bring out? And I think that dissuades people from going at him.

You really have to blindside him perfectly from the perspective of his of his competitors to take him out. And I think that really shielded him from a lot of stuff. The weirdest thing that happened last night in the three hour Survivor finale, other than them stacking it so that there was only like eight minutes left in the show when we found out who won and they're just racing through the zooms it was like what just happened you guys ended the show before that with a 10 minute retrospective that we'd already seen like you only find eight minutes for the winner um the ben there's five people left there's three against two basically and ben just kind of rolls over and lets Sarah take him out.

I didn't understand it as it was happening. I don't understand it now. It was a puzzling decision. I think that Riley and Mal on the pod has spoken today, opined that Ben must have known that he had no path to winning against anybody that was left. So he was looking for like a face-saving way out. I think that that's probably right.

I would add to that that, you know, a lot of his narrative, a lot of the stuff he said was about, you know, personal growth and making it about friendships and learning something through this experience of survivor and i just think like emotionally he was kind of checked out you know what i mean like he just didn't have it in him to fight anymore and i think the puzzling the thing that's really puzzling about that decision which i i it didn't land for me you

know like i'm happy for ben that he did something that makes him feel good and that is important to him that said when you're in like a final five in the most competitive survivor in recent memory and you lay it down and you lay it down in a way by throwing it to Sarah that actually undercuts her narrative for winning, which was I'm taking agency. I'm separating myself from Tony. I'm taking control. I'm in the driver's seat for the first time, and I'm unapologetic about it.

And Ben throwing it to her really undercut that narrative. It actually hurt it instead of helped it. So it's just a puzzling decision all around. I'm going to be much harder on it than you just were, because I think in general, Roe It actually hurt it instead of helped it. So it just a puzzling decision all around. I'm going to be much harder on it than you just were. Cause I think in general, we're always like, Hey,

you don't know. We don't know where his head's at. Everyone's like super sensitive at all times. I'm like, you just played survivor for 38 days. You're in the final five. You have one move, which is to switch sides because you know,

if it gets to the final four, whoever wins the immunity challenge, you can only take the one person with you and Tony and Sarah aligned and Natalie and Michelle are aligned and you're the odd man out. Your only chance is to flip, flip the other way, knock out either Tony or Sarah, because they're going to do the same to you eventually. Yeah. And then hope you can win the immunity challenge when there's four people left, which by the way, he would have been the odds on favorite. I thought it was inexplicable. I don't care about his personal growth. First of all, you're on a, you're in a game show. Who cares about your personal growth? You're in, you're in Fiji for 40 days. Nobody cares what your life's going to be like seven years from now. Well, you know, the other thing, and again, Ben's truth is Ben's truth.

Yeah. It rings a little hollow when you already won the million, right? You won the million. And then you come and say, you know what? It's not about the money. It's about the friends.

But you already won the million. So yeah, you could say that. You have the luxury of saying that. Also he, how does that explain some of the other moves he made during the game where he blindsided people? It's like, was that so his personal growth wasn't in,

wasn't in full swing yet, but now it is. I, I almost felt like him and Sarah made a side deal. Yeah, there was, there might've been some missing context there. There might've been some missing context there. There might have been some missing context.

Much like his feud with Jeremy that no one knows how that started. He seemed to have a lot of personal animosity had built up between him and Jeremy. Wouldn't even speak with him. And whatever caused that was cut out of the show. I have no idea what caused that. So maybe some side deal with Sarah was nixed out. But yeah, I agree. They've talked about that on The out of the show. I have no idea what caused that. So maybe, maybe some side deal with Sarah was, was nixed out, but yeah,

I agree. They've talked about that on the pot is spoken. There's a missing piece with the Jeremy benthane that, uh, never really made sense or added up where, where the animosity came from. Um, I,

so the Simmons family, my daughter, Zoe watched this entire season with me, mainly because we're in a quarantine. There's not a lot to do right now. Can you guess who the two Simmons family favorite people were on this show? One got voted out before we got to like the final eight who were behind. And then we shifted allegiances to somebody else.

Can you guess who we were voting for or rooting for? I mean, was it Boston Rob? Well, he went out early though. Okay. So let me see. He got, he got snaked pretty quickly. I, for some reason he was 10 times a bigger threat than Tony for no reason. All the early people got snaked pretty fast. I'll give you the first one. So, we love Jeremy. We were all in on Jeremy, rooting for Jeremy. There was a window there when it

seemed like he could flip the game, and it couldn't really happen, but I just like him. He brings a lot of the stuff together that I would want out of my survivor person. So then we switched, I was surprised because I was never a huge fan of her in the past, but we switched to Michelle. Michelle, we were all in on Michelle the last like few episodes. I really thought, you know, I love when the people are the underdog, when they're just kind of scrapping to

stay in the game, you have to come through in the clutch, win a challenge to save your ass. And I thought she did a good job. Impressive season by Michelle. Just think about the things she had to overcome. First of all, she's on the show with her ex, with Wendell, who it obviously did not end well because she said in one of the earlier episodes, like, you actually hurt me in real life. And then she had to work with him.

Well, it seems like part of the problem was that she felt like it was her ex. And I'm not sure he a hundred percent felt like she was an ex. There was some sort of ambiguity with how, how intense the relationship was that didn't really add up. I agree with you. I think from her, her perspective,

he's an ex from his perspective, they were like just hanging out or something. Yeah, it's like, well, you're not my ex. What happened? Yeah. So she's dealing with that. She was on the outside of many alliances and on the bottom as we came down the stretch here. And then

the episode before this had such a disastrous challenge that she was actually crying afterwards that she had done so poorly and then this episode comes in is last in the physical portion of that early challenge but then gets to the puzzle and crushes the puzzle in a fashion that like i can't actually remember seeing someone so dominant in a puzzle like that she got to the puzzle, the camera cut away for five seconds and then came back

and she had the whole first section done. And everybody's looking at her to cheat off of her puzzle. It was amazing. She just overcame so much adversity and really hung in there. I was really disappointed that she didn't get at least one vote.

The Simmons family. Yes, she deserved a vote. Very upset about this. Yeah, we didn't understand that one. I am, look, people can feel Simmons family. She deserved a vote. Very upset about this. Yeah. We, we didn't understand that one. I, I, I am a look. People can feel how they want about this.

There's no right answer. I'm dead set against this. Somebody getting voted out early in the show, lasting in some weird Island and then coming back late in the game and somehow being in the final three, because they won like one immunity. They brought an immunity out of with them. It doesn't sit right with me. Cause i don't feel like she outwitted and i know riley talked about this on his podcast on ringer dish but um i i just feel like it's almost like if you

made the nba playoffs even though you weren't a playoff team and you were able to get in right before the semi-finals it's like, here comes the Minnesota Timberwolves. They've won an immunity challenge. And not just get in, but like have home court advantage in the opening round, you know? Right. They get to use seven players on the court in game one. It's like, what? You weren't even here for two months.

You know, I think Survivor kind of dodged. I think they kind of dodged a bullet with this one. There's no doubt that Nat coming back in made it more exciting. I would also argue that, you know, she had a legitimate case. I would not have voted for her, but you can make the case for her. And I think if she she made two mistakes at the end, one, she should have thrown her immunity to Michelle to show that like it's about I'm protecting my alliance. I had this alliance. I'm not just trying to leap over michelle's back into this final three and then she she should have put herself she should have given up the immunity necklace and gone against tony in the fire making

contest because if you want to if you want to be the king you got to kill the king and she was saying the whole time she came back from from Edge and was like, everybody's talking about Tony. Tony's running the game. Tony's doing this. Tony's doing that. So I've got to take out Tony. And then Tony says to her right before they do the fire competition.

Well, what's stopping you? Exactly. What's stopping you? Why don't you just you have to go against him? That's how you burnish your resume. I think if she would have done those two things, I still think, you know, well, if she would have beaten Tony, obviously she that would have been the end of it. But I think she would have really burnished her resume had she done those two things. But I agree with you. I think edges. It needs to be tweaked somehow. There's just not enough interaction. You're too isolated over there. And yes, you're throwing advantages and fire tokens and disadvantages into the game, but it's, it's a one way conversation. There's no way that people in the game proper understand what's going on in the edge. And then you come in and it's like out of nowhere, you don't have the social

formulation is totally thrown out. And it worked out this time and made it very exciting. But I agree with you. That needs to be tweaked somehow. I think the answer should have been just bring them in a little sooner. Like when there's eight people left, that's when it's like, all right, everybody from extinction, here's your one chance. And you come in now there's nine left. Now there's enough time. You actually still have to play and outwit. You can't win every immunity challenge at that point. The way they stacked it with this one, it just, everything's in her favor. She comes in with the idol.

She's able to win one challenge at the perfect time. And then all of a sudden she's in the final three, which didn't sit right with me. When she started, you know, going down the litany of the different things that she had thrown into the game, that actually did impress me. And that she had thrown into the game that actually did impress me and then when you add into the fact that she's been on edge of extinction since day one and i

don't know if she has like a hidden stash of like of of beef jerky and creatine or what because everybody on that island looks like a bag of bones yeah she looks like leBron James. She is muscular and so fit and strong. I actually don't understand how she maintained her strength at that. And yes, she had some peanut butter, but what was in the peanut butter? HGH? I think she was doing some... I think she was doing some Tom Hanks

castaway spearfishing shit or something. You could make a case she's, other than Serena Williams, maybe the second greatest female athlete of all time. You watch her in the challenges, you're like, oh, she's going to crush everybody. How is anybody going to compete with her? She is the greatest survivor athlete ever.

What a specimen. Her against Tony, I think she has a case. I wouldn't vote for her, but I think she has a case. But I agree with you that the edge needs to be, they need to balance that better. What would your, what would your game be just for the record? If you ever made survivor,

what would you, what would you, what, which file do you fall in? I think I'd be like, kind of like the Christian from, from David's David versus Goliath. I'd be, play a strong social game

where people like me and kind of float until the merge and then really turn it on and become like a puzzle and challenge threat. But really try to act like, oh, you're just pulling me along for this early part of the game. I'd get voted out early because I would be complaining about my contact lenses just constantly.

It's so dirty out here. I'm so afraid to put my contacts in. People are like, we got to get this fucking guy out of here. Man. When, when they go close to them sometimes and you see all the bug bites on them,

Jesus, like I there's, I couldn't do it. It's tough. Jeff Probst, though, quarantine, no quarantine, always looks exactly the same. It's like he puts on a Jeff Probst costume

and he's just going to look exactly the same no matter what the circumstances. It's pouring rain, looks the same. Looks the same. He is the king. I got to say, I think the decision at the end of the show to be like send me your 16 year olds was maybe not the best line reading yeah yeah maybe we could have rephrased

that i was figuring out a way to tweak that yeah uh i was thinking they you know how they can't figure out the mond Monday night football booth. Yeah. Like Jeff probes. Who's better at narrating action than Jeff probes. And now Patrick Mahomes is coming back. Like he just do Jeff probe stuff. He's unbelievable.

Before you go. Yeah. So one of my biggest mistakes of the quarantine was not including you in the escape from New York rewatchables, which we made up for that. Now we figured out how to do four on a rewatchable spot. But one of the key questions there was, if you were a Knicks fan, would you rather have the escape from New York scenario

where New York becomes a maximum security prison and James Dolan never owns the Knicks because the Knicks have to leave or how it played out where New York didn't become a maximum security prison, but James Dolan took over the Knicks. Those are your two choices. Which one do you pick? Wow. That's really, really, really tough. Um, I, you know what? Things are so crazy right now.

Give me, give me New York as a maximum security prison. Like, let's just, let's just try it. We need, I would love to see a Knicks championship and I would love to see the Knicks not owned by James Dolan. The one thing I really missed about that pod was being able to do my Donald Pleasance impression, which I will now. Well, go ahead, do it now. Okay, yeah.

Hey, the Duke, hey, number one. That's it. All right. You can hear Jason on binge mode. You're up to some other things for us that we haven't discussed yet, but yeah, you're up to stuff. Thanks for coming on. Thank you for having me.

All right. We're bringing in Nick Kroll to talk about Big Mouth and what he's been up to the quarantine, all this stuff. But first, I want to tell you a couple of Ringer podcast notes. We announced today, actually, that we're launching a new podcast series called Boom Bust. Season one is about the rise and fall of HQ.

You can subscribe on Apple and Spotify and wherever else you get your podcasts. Speaking of Spotify, music exists with Chuck Klosterman and Chris Ryan. Hit the tail end of their first season. And if you love music and you love deep dive discussions,

and you want to feel like you're just trapped at a bar sitting next to two guys, which is going deep on music. I would highly encourage you to listen to this one with Chuck and Chris Chuck's been on here a million times. So has Chris. So check that out. The wire way down in the hole with Van Lathan and Jamel Hill is heading toward the end of season one. I have a bad feeling for Wallace. I'm not sure it's going to work out for him. TV Concierge, where we have little recaps of different TV shows that are either coming or TV shows that we've become obsessed by, that you can find exclusively on Spotify. So that's what we're up to lately, not to mention Flying Coach with

Pete Carroll and Steve Kerr, which is one of the coolest podcasts we've debuted and unleashed in some time. So there you go. All right, Nick Kroll right now. Nick Kroll is with us. We're taping this late Wednesday afternoon. He spends 24 hours a day on Zoom, just having Zoom meetings, doing things on Zoom. He's all Zoom. He's Zoom 24-7. I am truly on Zoom all day long, and I am, no joke, dreaming in Zoom. Are you having that at all?

Are you experiencing that? No, I've really tried to only do Zoom when I have to do Zoom and still try to do phone calls and mix it up so I don't lose my mind. Yeah, we're writing big mouth and we're doing it on Zoom every day. So it's all day from like 9.30 to 4 or something like that, depending on the day. So I am on it all day long. My brain is sort of thinking that way. I definitely remember some dreams. I talk in my sleep a lot and my girlfriend says that I'm clearly talking as if I'm on a Zoom call or conversations with people in my sleep. It's making me feel crazy. I think the weirdest thing about Zoom was when it started to feel normal about two weeks in.

Totally. Well, it's like, I finally, I don't know if you've had that where you physically saw someone who wasn't in your house or family and you have a socially distanced hang. And what was the creepiest thing to me was seeing people in person

and being like, thinking it was going to be like, so crazy to be like, Oh my God, I'm, but then you're, I was kind of like, Oh yeah, it's kind of like zoom. Like I was, zoom is now the basis of judging all other interactions. Yeah. Yeah. I need a quadrant of people at all times. Yeah. The social distancing hang, it really feels like that's started to become a thing in the last two, three weeks, because I guess one of the positives is we've learned that human beings actually like being around other human beings sometimes. I was concerned for a long time, but it's still in play. Thank God. It is. And we're trying to do different things that are obviously as

responsible about how we do it. But like, um, uh, we went to the drive-in. Have you been to a drive-in yet? No. How was it? It was fun. Um, it's great. It just feels, it's nice to be out in a place with, but everybody's in their cars, so you're separate, but you are in a place with people, even if you're all separated. It just felt like it was nice to have a collective experience. So it's almost like we've reverted back to the 1950s, but with much better equipment in our houses. Yes, for sure. And we went and saw, of course and we went and saw of course i went and saw this uh documentary uh spaceship earth about the the this cult who um built that biosphere in the early 90s yeah which i don't know if you saw the movie bio no but i'm assuming i did a long time ago yeah so

i'm assuming biodome was inspired by this biosphere It's this sort of cool, hippie-ish cult who raised $200 million and built a biosphere to create a terraform of Earth to see if when we colonize space, we would be able to figure out how to build and rebuild Earth-like living. And it was pretty good. But we did a drive-'s, it's, it's, it was pretty good, but it,

but it was, we did a drive in, which is, it was so weird, but it was fun. Um, well, you're a guy that likes to find humor and even the darkest of situations would have been

the funniest things about, uh, three months in quarantine to you, the things that you didn't expect. Yeah. What, let's see. I mean,

it's been a, you know, I don't know how you're talking about it or you know i think like my experience is i've been living in my house with my girlfriend uh we cook constantly and i spent all day on zoom um What have I discovered? I mean, like, I was not much of a cook, but I've been cooking, like, roasting chickens and cutting chickens. Have you felt like touching a full chicken, like feeling a full chicken feels like you're holding like a baby, sort of. And so the sensation of cutting a chicken in half, like in my 40s now, the idea that I didn't know what that feeling was like is very disturbing.

Yeah. So now I'm just cutting babies up, I guess is what I'm saying. Have you rolled more or less handmade cigarettes over the last three months than normal? I had quit. Yeah. I guess like we hung out when we hung out at Chang's house, I was still smoking rolly. I was rolling my own cigarettes. I have since quit.

I went to a hypnotist. Oh, you went to a hypnotist. Oh, you went to a hypnotist. Did it work? Yeah. I mean, it's worked three times, if that makes sense. Yeah. It works for about two years and then I jump back in. I go, yeah.

So I've gone to a hypnotist multiple times. I don't know how that's working now. How is your eating? Are you eating differently? What are you doing? Is your consumption normal? Well, it's less junk, right? Because you go to the grocery store, you're not getting junk and there's really no junk to get. So it's a lot of just two meals a day and then that's it.

Like a breakfast or lunch, whatever you do. And then some sort of dinner thing. Our family's been cooking more. Yeah. I mean, it's been great in that way. It's like, but I know I'm like a, you know, a privileged fucking. Yeah, me too. You know, so it's like, you know,

so I have to say like, it's been, you know, it's been a, it has made me realize like how much I have... My family's all in New York, and I Zoom with them for Passover seders and birthdays that I normally, if I weren't there, I'm involved more with. It's weirdly brought me closer together with family and friends that I...

Unless I'm in New York or wherever I am, I don't talk to them that much. And now it's these like weird, much more frequent kind of things of like, oh, right, the human, we do need connection, especially in these moments, you know? That's so true. By the way, I'm a believer in the hypnotist thing

because when I was like 14, I couldn't put my contact lenses in my eyes huh i just for some reason was afraid of my finger it would be like this and i couldn't get over the hump and i wore glasses basically all the way through eighth grade because i just couldn't get the contacts in and somebody suggested going to a hypnotist and i went like twice and now 40 years later 35 years later, whatever it is, I I'm now like the greatest person of all time. Putting content. I could put context in on an airplane. I can put it from in a passenger seat in a car. I could probably do it upside down.

Like if there's a, if it was an Olympic event, I would win and I couldn't do it until I went to the hypnotist. That's, that's really wild. So you're like parents. Cause I had the same thing. I got contacts. My friend, Andrew, who's the Andrew Goldberg, who's I co-created big mouth with,

I'd gotten contacts a few years earlier and I couldn't, my blink, my instinct to blink was so strong. I couldn't get the contact. And he sort of taught me the trick to put it in. If you look away, so your eye doesn't know. And then you look back in, but, but I, that's so interesting that you went to a hypnotist for that. Did you

ever think about going back for anything else? No, I, I, I kind of wish I had something I could go back for. I don't know what that would be. I didn't sort of, I've gone, yeah, I've gone for smoking and then I went back for snacks. just addicted to snacks a different a woman over the phone she hypnotized me over the phone and it's truly insane but it did it work and I yeah I'd listen to it when I go to sleep at night and it's I mean it sounds so crazy but like it's also just like if you're like man I really want to quit smoking and you go to this hypnotist you pay money to and then he tells you like he's a super weird dude this hypnotist i went to um he's like super tan he's like an older man who's the color of like a like a beautiful basketball. You know those like beach town dudes who get so tan?

Yeah. Or like a Wilson football, like a gorgeous leather football. Yeah. And he asked weird questions, like rhetorical questions, like would you give a toddler a gun? And you're like, I don't know.

I don't know the toddler. Has anyone done a background check on him you know like am i in texas yeah yeah it depends i guess on what state you're in so then he and then he sort of hypnotized you and it and it worked like it it uh it it like and then this woman over the phone i listened to her her recording and it's the power of suggestion. You know what I mean? And it's intentional. You're just like, I got to quit eating this.

But by the way, right before this started, I was eating cookie dough out of the fridge. So that didn't work that well. It worked. It worked all right. I might have to go back to try to wean off all the MTV shows. I still watch The Challenge. And it's like, I just got to move on with my life at this point. So maybe that'll be

my next thing. That's a CT. CT's that kid's a monster. One of the great athletes we've ever had. Yeah. I'm so desperate for sports. The Challenge and Survivor have become two of the things I'm into the most. It's just sports

withdrawal. So CT was on Kroll show. We had him on. Cause our, our director editors directors, uh, season three, Bill Benz and,

and Dan Longino are similarly love the challenge and love CT. And we were doing like an action movie parody. And they were like, we should cast CT as like the bad-ass. And he was great. He was super fun. Great dude. But I wanted to bring something up about Survivor.

Yeah. One of our writer's assistants, Kelsey Krasniger, is a really, really funny, smart woman who's been putting together a Survivor quarantine that she's been doing a virtual survivor with a bunch of people and they're playing full seasons of Survivor in their own quarantines, like all separately,

but she's running a full game of Survivor. Wait a second. First of all, that's the most incredible idea I've ever heard. Second, how do you play? Are you just like on Wednesday nights, you vote somebody out and everybody's just lobbying behind the scenes? Yeah.

She's got challenges. They vote and then they have like off-site, they have their own, you know, they're doing it on Instagram and YouTube and they're doing their testimonials and then they're having alliances that are playing out in the offshoot of the week and then they get together

and have like the, you know, the whole ceremony each week and there's winners. I'll send you a link. I'll send you a link to check it out. That's an incredible idea. How do they simulate the BO? Is that just, you just have to supply your own BO? Like, what do you do?

I guess so. You have to spray yourself. You just have to like sit in your own. I mean, it's not that hard. We to like sit in your own i mean it's not that hard we're all sitting in our own filth all day long so do you have to shit outside or can you use normal toilets like how does that part work you put you poop outside and then you have the you have the the bugs eat i mean i'm gonna go too far so i'm gonna stop because i don't so so how many people how many people are left? Is it like six, seven left?

I think this is their second season doing the show and this is the quarantine edition. And I don't know where it stands right now. That's a brilliant idea. It's great. I mean, all quarantine entertainment content ideas on Zoom have, in my opinion,

been a little lacking. This was the first one that actually feels like it could work. It's, you know, I'm a moderate survivor. I'm not historically a huge survivor fan. I think this time has sort of driven us to it a little more. But I've watched some of this stuff and it's really funny.

And I have some friends who were doing it and they're like, it is getting me through, one, it's getting me through the quarantine, but two, it is getting me through. One, it's getting me through the quarantine. But two, it is like very much like it feels very much like I'm on Survivor. And it feels like super intense and super engaged and super emotional. And so I'll forward it to you to check out. Yeah, I want to see that.

Yeah, it's great. I don't know how you replicate Jeff Probst. Yeah. Not just for that idea, but in life, because he's truly one of a kind. He is an American treasure. Yeah. He wears a UV-protected Columbia, like, sports shirt

better than just about anybody. Oh, yeah. He's good at narrating the challenge action, too. He is. I haven't watched Survivor in a long time. I hadn't watched Survivor in a long time, and someone was like, you've got to watch this season. It's the all-stars.

It's the champions or whatever. I tried to watch one episode on CBS On Demand on DirecTV, and I was in until it got to the first commercial break. And then it was 10 minutes of commercials for CBS shows. And it kept

re-looping on the commercials. And I watched like four commercials for Blue Bloods and I lost my mind and was like, I gotta turn this up. I can't do this anymore. Blue Bloods, season 13. Yeah. Look at Tom Selleck in a huge jacket to cover his belly. Tom Selleck's hair is now Dr. Pepper color.

What happens on Blue Bloods? All I know is Donnie Wahlberg, who I really like. I'm so happy that he's just, you know, at some point on those shows, you're just raking in cash. Yeah. He's married to Jenny McCarthy. He's making season 13 money on Blue Bloods. Oh, my God.

You know? Good for Donnie Wahlberg. It's one of my dad's favorite shows. Speaking of favorite shows of people in my family. Yeah. So you're working on season four of Big Mouth. But now you're doing it on Zoom. Yeah.

We're finishing season four of Big Mouth. We are. But now you're doing it on Zoom. Yeah, we're working on, we're finishing season four. We're actually working on season five right now. Oh, you're done? Season four. Yeah, the season six is still long. It takes like a year and a half

to make a season, like from beginning to end. So we're deep into, so we have to be way ahead of wherever we're getting ready. So season four will come out in this, this fall. Um, and we're working on season five. How's your son doing? So there's been some developments. Um, still loves big mouth, obviously.

Good. I know he's once the quarantine hit, he rewatched all three seasons and then we could tell it was happening because he was significantly more abrasive around the house and more obscenities and things like that. We're like, are you watching Big Mouth again? No! But then he

really likes the show Duncanville. Oh, cool. The Fox show. Yeah. He has that. Now it's like there's a mistress for you. He has that. Now it's like there's a mistress for you. It's tough. The longer you stay away with a new season,

the more you're just opening the door for these other shows to seduce him. I got to stay on it. It's making sure as a drug dealer that you're keeping your clients supplied or they're going to find a new outlet. I have to watch that.

But he's a real animation kid. When we talked last, he was starting to go shoot stuff. Is he making stuff in the quarantine? Was he making some videos and stuff with his buddies? Yeah.

Well, that stopped because now nobody can, right. None of the kids can be with that. None of them are creative enough at age 12 to figure out how to do like entertainment through zoom. He's doing a lot of music stuff, but yeah, he,

when he had died, I feel like he has good taste with animated stuff. So when he adopts a series, I always feel like it's a good sign for the series. Cause for the most part he's pretty on it he really like he has high taste for that stuff but yeah the big mouth big mouth is still like is is uh way up there for him where so we're we're working on that um as we speak and then we'll go into a spininoff show called Human Resources.

Oh, yeah. You told us about that the last time. Yeah. So we'll go into that once we're done. Obviously, animation right now, similar to podcasting, is something that we can continue to make at this truly bizarre time. I was going to ask you about that. There's actually kind of a competitive advantage to producing animated series and movies and shows versus having to actually be on a set producing stuff. Yeah, I mean, it's simply just the idea that you can keep moving the ball down the field

in isolation from each other in a way that live action you can't. I mean, I think they're going to start to try to figure out creatively how to do live action while we're still in quarantine. It's like, do you have a funny take on Room? The Brie Larson movie? Room the comedy. Yeah, can we do Room the comedy?

Room the later years? Let's see what the boy is up to in that. The lady in the Silence of the Lambs dungeon. Just a whole 13 episode arc with her. Yeah, we do a series about if baby Jessica had stayed in the well, like what she up to now.

We could do that. I mean, it's all about getting creative. But yes, no. Animation has allowed us to we keep, you know, We're recording over Zoom. At some point, we'll probably have to get proper booths in our houses or we'll have to record at some point when things get a little safer to go out to proper recording booths or whatever.

Your audio sounds super clear right now. I don't know what you got going on over there. I got a little Apogee mic. Oh, nice. Yeah, I got that. And we're trying different things. I got a big sound blanket that I sometimes will cover myself in like a child in a fort. And you're doing stuff with Mulaney again.

Yes. We, me and John Mulaney, have been working with these two older, 70-something-year-old New York City Upper West Side monsters named George St. Geeglin and Gil Faison. They had a show on Broadway called Oh Hello on Broadway. It became a Netflix special as well. And John and I have been trying to help them produce their podcast.

Some people say they sound and look a lot like me and John, but make no mistake, they're different men. They're much worse people than we are. And so they decided to do a podcast they jumped on the podcast train i think they saw your success and decided to do a podcast about the um life and death of princess diana they felt like that that would be a useful uh podcast to do and um so they started doing it about a year and a half ago and then got busy and bailed on it. They had a falling out. Oh, no. Yeah, they had a major falling out. But before they banked all these interviews, they got Ira Glass and Sarah Koenig from This American Life and Serial to try to guide them as people deep in the podcast world.

And they interviewed John Oliver and Lin-Manuel Miranda and some psychics and a few other people about the life and death of Princess Diana. And then they had a falling out. They stopped doing the podcast. They got busy. And then in the middle of the quarantine, we got a xerox copy of a fax that they sent and um it basically said we're back we want to do put the podcast out so me and john along with our producer lena mitsitsis have put out a this oh hello podcast podcast they call it the oh hello

podcast and it's the about the life and death of Princess Diana, Dytown. And Lena just won a Pulitzer for her work with Ira Glass and company at This American Life. So she's splitting her time right now between winning a Pulitzer Prize and working with Gil Faison and George St. Geekland. Unbelievable. So if this does well, could season two be about Natalie Wood? Or is there another mystery? That's the question,

is where they would go. It would be Natalie Wood. There are still too many legitimate questions for them to actually answer. They would be much more likely to be like, you know, like what happened to the Menendez brothers? Um, you know, like, well, they murdered their parents. It's like, all right. Sounds like it sounds like we solved that one then. Um, so we'll see. It's, it's been really, um, it's fun. You

know, the people have seemed to like it. Uh, it's been, you know, there was questions about whether the boys, because the boys are in double, they're in quarantine, they're self-quarantined in New York, but they, George believes Gil has double COVID. But they haven't talked much about COVID inside of it all. They really just have focused on Princess Diana.

And, you know, each episode feels a little bit like, one episode feels like WTF, one episode feels like, you know, Ser episode feels a little bit like one episode feels like WTF. One episode feels like, you know, Serial or This American Life. One episode feels a little bit like. So they sort of are trying out all these different formats. You know, they haven't they haven't messed with the ringer yet. They have not messed with the ringer format at all. I mean, obviously, competitively,

we're concerned. It's fair. I mean, it's about elevating. It might elevate everybody's game. You know what I mean? Because they are not above it. They're not above stealing playbook. They're not above any of it. It's all about who does it best. I highly recommend watching the Natalie Wood documentary on HBO because it's one of the weirdest documentaries I think that's ever been made. Does it talk about Christopher Walken in it? It talks about it's produced by her daughter. They

interview RJ who's like 90 and still doing great. George Hamilton's in there. It's like a celebration of her life but then dives into the boat. But I left it with more questions that I had going into it. And it's just bonkers.

It's not even that good. It's just bonkers. Yeah. Well, it's sort of this Spaceship Earth, that documentary about the biosphere. Similarly, you're like, what happened here? But you're still like,

man, I still want to know what happened. Why did these people build a biosphere? And what happened here but you're still like man i'm still i i still want to know what happened like why why did these people build a biosphere and what happened to it because i don't even want to ruin it the the villain at the end of this documentary it'll be a real it's a very funny reveal who the villain of this document i won't ruin it but uh it's very funny but i got to watch that natalie wood thing I've been, I'm assuming, I mean, beyond assuming, but the last dance, I am super, I'm one behind, but I cannot,

it's so fun to watch again. It's so fun to see all that for me. Do you know the original DVD that they had was kind of narrated and hosted by John Cusack? Because that's what, that's what... When we saw it, when we were trying to get it for 30 for 30 at the end of the 2000s,

they had kind of made a documentary out of it, but then never did anything with it. And Cusack is like a recurring guy. That's why that footage of him in there, there's like way more John Cusack. I have no idea how it happened or why it happened he's a Chicago boy I guess and he's like narrating stuff

and it's totally different that's weird yeah that's right because that footage had been around so this was before Jordan had agreed to do it initially it was they filmed him for the year they actually made the documentary.

They held off. Then they gave it to Spike Lee. Then he decided not to. And it just kind of bounced around. And Jordan basically wasn't interested. And then something flipped in the mid-2000s. My son is here. He wants to ask you a question.

You got it. Come on in. Hold on. I'm going to give him my... You got it come on in hold on i'm gonna give him my you gotta put the headphones on there we go all right come in you gotta sit down what's up bud hello nick how you doing first of all the whole entire series moi it's perfect i love it so much thanks for the chef's kiss it's changed my whole entire quarantine life. Well, you had already seen it, but you rewatched it.

I rewatched every season five times. In counting. Thank you. Ask him what question do you have about season four. All right. First of all, stop. So, people say the Department of Puberty is the best episode. I really disagree.

I think it's episode four, season one, the sleepover episode. No doubt in my mind, that is the greatest Big Mouth episode ever. Wow. I like this. I like, you know, you're not, you and your, you picked up something from your dad, which is to have very clear, strong opinions on things. And you're not afraid to make a proclamation, which I respect.

I like that. I really like that sleepover episode too. How come, what is it, why do you like that one so much? What is it about that one for you? We learn about Jay Waymore and his brothers Val and Kurt. Yes. I don't know what that means.

Yes, you should ask your dad, not for many years, but ask your dad if he's ever seen the Italian Stallion. Have you ever seen the Italian Stallion porno? With Sly Stallone?

Oh, yeah. In episode 10, season one. It's entitled The Porn Scape. I know every episode. Well, ask him, what do you want to know about season four? Because they finished it.

It's done. Yeah, so we're done with season four. But okay, so you like, so the Department of Puberty, not your favorite. I love the Department of Puberty. Okay, good. You like that sleepover episode. 100%. Okay.

That's episode. Okay. And they fight. That's Nick and Andrew getting a fight. The girls sleep over, the boys sleep over. We meet Nathan Fillion, that Miss sleep over. We meet Nathan Fillion. That Missy has a crush on Nathan Fillion. We find out about the Italian-Stanley porno,

which then comes back in the porn scape in the last episode. Yeah, episode 10. Boy, you really know the order of these things better than I do. That's crazy. Okay. All right.

So, do you have any questions about season four? You want to know, what do you want to know? I'm so confused on what's happening with Jesse. I'm not sure if she's moving or not, even though her mom put her house on the market. I'm so confused. Sure. Okay. So, well, I don't know what I'm supposed to, I don't know. It's so early to like, what can I, I don't want to spoil anything, but I also want to give you some info. So, you know, I'll say this. Jesse's mom moves to the city.

I won't, I won't say exactly what happens with Jesse, but they're the first three episodes of the season. It's the summer, you know, so we go straight into the summer. So stuff, it's the summer. We go straight into the summer. Stuff goes down over the summer. I have something he knows about. You cheated on Big Mouth with Duncanville. I'm sorry.

It's okay. You see like Duncanville. It's good. I haven't seen it. A kid's got to do what a kid's got to do. You can't judge. He's got he's gotta get his fix elsewhere i i got no i got no qualms i got it's all good people making that show i got only love only love and it's as long as i know that big mouth is you know holds a specific place in your life that's great that's all and there's and that you can see when the time comes that you and your dad can watch the Italian Stallion together.

Where's badminton? I want to know. The badminton. Do you think the badminton is part of Steve or separate from Steve? Separate. You do. It's a ghost. I'm telling you, it's a ghost.

It's a ghost. Interesting. Steve it's a ghost it's a ghost Steve's dad we're wrapping this up you're going deep deep say goodbye to Nick goodbye thanks man good to see you that was quite a Zoom cameo unfortunately I didn't have a second headphone

I couldn't hear anything you talked about can you tell he's watched every season five times he really does he knows the show and he. Could you tell he's watched every season five times? He really does. He knows the show and he really understands it. And he's into it in a sort of a deep level. It's not a kind of surface level version of it. It's a really kind of very nuanced, deep understanding and examination of it. Well, it's interesting because he turns 13 in November.

Yeah. And my wife and I were like, should we talk to him about puberty? And she's like, he already knows everything from Big Mouth. You can thank your friend, Nick. I love my father. I was like, it's probably better for him to learn that way than the way our generation learned,

which is like an awkward car ride with your dad. Yeah. Or just like, or nothing. Yeah, or just like... Or nothing. Yeah, or getting your hands on the Italian Stallion, the Sylvester Stallone porn. Exactly. It's so crazy.

Yeah, it should have been a bigger deal that Sly Stallone made a porn. I know. Well, I guess the history of it is that he made it well in the past, and then once Rocky came out, they renamed it the Italian stallion. They were trying to play up.

It was a smart play. It's a good, that's a good move. It's a good marketing play. I totally support that. Um, okay. This was good.

Um, I was good to see you. I'm glad things are going well. Yes. I'm glad you're still able to do comedy, uh, through zoom. You know,

and we do, we can, we do, we can say hi to everybody. I will. And, and tell everyone a big mouth. Thank you. Because, uh, the show means a can say hi to everybody. I will. And, uh, and tell everyone a big mouth. Thank you.

Because, uh, the show means a lot in the Simmons house. I will. And, uh, if people want to check out the, Oh, hello, podcast, it's all over. Uh, you know, it's on, it's on all the things. It's on all the things. I'm, I'm interested to see what we are going to unearth about princess die too. It's you never know. It was undercover. Weirdly.

It was not nearly as big of a story as it should have been. It was. And, and it, you know, and 21 years later, it was, uh, there's still the boys still think there's much more to be examined. There could be, who knows? I think they're lifting the hood up on this a little bit. Groundbreaking journalism. All right, man. Good to see you. Thanks, Nick. Take care, man. All right. That's it. Hope you enjoyed an action-packed podcast. Thanks to Zip Recruiter. Rossello and I are coming on Sunday night. We also, if you love the rewatchables, we did Draft Day a couple of days ago and we have Armageddon coming up. So that's all we have. We'll see you on Sunday

night. Enjoy the weekend. Please stay safe. Listen to the experts and we will see you next time.