The Bill Simmons Podcast - MJ’s Doc, Tua’s Draft Stock, L.T. vs. Rice, and the ’93 Knicks-Bulls Battle with Ryen Russillo | The Bill Simmons Podcast

Episode Date: April 20, 2020

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss the first two episodes of the ESPN documentary 'The Last Dance' (2:50) before getting into the upcoming NFL draft, top QB draft prospects, Bill's and Ryen’s all-time top-five NFL players, and more (37:50). Finally they revisit Game 4 of the 1993 Eastern Conference finals between the Chicago Bulls and the New York Knicks (1:40:20). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the BS podcast and the ringer podcast network brought to you by state farm, Scotty and Mike, Kobe and Shaq, LeBron and Wade, just a few NBA duos that are undeniably the real deal. If you're watching, uh, the last dance, which we're still in, I are going to talk about in a second, Scotty and Michael, I think were my second favorite tandem ever behind Bird and McHale. Bird and McHale, the low post game of McHale, Bird spacing it, the way they played off each other, unbelievable, at their peak in 86, some of the best stuff I've ever seen on a basketball court.

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It's a charitable donation. Once again, that is the ringer.com slash W C K. We're also brought to you by the ringer.com where we are covering the Michael Jordan documentary. Like it is the NBA playoffs. Cause we don't have the NBA playoffs, uh, unfortunately, but we have a whole bunch of cool podcasts, including our new podcast about the wire, the wire way down in the hole, including flying coach, the new podcast with Pete Carroll and Steve Kerr. You can subscribe to both of those on Spotify or on Apple or wherever you get your podcasts. And coming up,

we are going to tackle the MJ doc. We're going to talk about the NFL draft and we're going to do another episode of the rewatch of bulls with Ryan Rosillo. Speaking of basketball on book of basketball podcast, Chad Ford and I redrafted the 2003 draft. We're running that on Tuesday and we are running the Ferris Bueller rewatchables on Monday. So really fun week here. Plus a lot of rumors of the cuz cousin Sal coming on Thursday night after round one in the nfl draft so i don't know we'll see we'll see if we can get them that's all coming up right now riscilla first our friends from

pearl gym All right, it is 8 o'clock Pacific time Sunday night. We just watched the first two parts of the Michael Jordan documentary. I'd already seen it, but I really enjoyed watching it a second time. Ryan Rosillo, you hadn't seen it yet. What did you think? I'm oddly, I didn't think this i was gonna feel this but when he started talking about in episode two when he just is like i want to win and all these dudes talk about winning now and i don't know that i believe them all and i don't know that i've ever believed an athlete as much as i believe jordan who's like what are you guys doing like we're supposed to win these games and i know we're getting into this in a little greater i'm so motivated right now like i want to do something i want to go outside i want to compete like i'm not i'm not bullshitting

you i am like incredibly inspired where i thought going into this everybody was like worried about people being like oh jordan they're really not gonna like jordan i already knew that stuff i'm i just believe this guy so much i want to go do, Jordan, they're really not going to like Jordan. I already knew that stuff. I just believe this guy so much. I want to go do something, and I know I'm not going to have the opportunity to do that because there aren't even rims. I'm like Braveheart. The first time I saw Braveheart kind of inspired right now.

Well, he has that one line in the second episode when he's talking about we can't let up. You've got to keep asserting your dominance you can't let other people know like he has that whole dominance alpha dog thing but genuinely believes it it's not it's not like you know i think kobe kind of grew to believe a lot of the stuff that he was saying but a lot of it was like mamba mentality hashtag whatever a lot of it's a jordan jordan impersonation by kobe yeah no question so um but you know he really believed the step on somebody's neck you can't let them up you have to motivate people

you have to drive them and if they can't take it you don't want to be in the war with them anyway get them the fuck out get me somebody else like he was a maniac right and in episode two that you know after the injury where i imagine a lot of the rest warriors out there were so happy to learn about a minutes restriction in 1985 um but that team is 30 and 52 and is the eighth seed that ends up playing the celtics and jordan towards the end of the year is playing in these games because he was back at unc he wasn't supposed to be playing at all. And he's playing. It's absurd to even think of maybe the best player in a league in the 80s.

Still, things are so disconnected and organized, unorganized. He's at UNC supposedly rehabbing and being in a pool and taking classes. And he's running full court with the team. And nobody knows until Jordan comes back and tells Kraus. And they're freaking out. And they're like like we'll let you play but it's only seven minute burst each half and they have this game against the Pacers and they're thinking about the lottery pick which is obviously very familiar now and everybody's

like and Jordan's like what are you talking about and he's at the minutes restriction the game is tied there's 30 seconds left time is called Kraus comes down to the bench. He's like, get him out of there. Jordan's freaking out in the timeout because he's not going to go back into the game. Paxson hits the game winner. And the first thing I looked at the footage was a real winner is so excited. His team won. He'd be out there celebrating with them as opposed to the selfishness that we've seen with other athletes where it's like, I want you guys to think I want to win, but I really only want to win on my terms. And Jordan's out there high five and everybody. And I'm going, that's exactly it. That's the point. He may have been an asshole to his teammates, but like, it's way better. Like

you could be an asshole, but if you win, we'll justify all this stuff. But he really, truly cared. Like it was driving him insane to not be out there, even though that team was 30 and 52. Well, the other thing is it was actually terrible that they made the playoffs. It led to the 49 and 63 point games against the 86 Celtics. But that's like, you know, that, that was a no win situation. They did the 86 Celtics were the best team of all time. The lottery that year, only seven teams were in there. That was back in the day.

That was the envelope era. That was like, everybody had the same odds so if you if you ended up you know one of the seven even if you were the seventh team you had the same odds as the worst team in the league so it wasn't weighted at all yet because i was looking it up before we were doing it it was just straight envelopes 85 and 86 and they changed in 87 that was the year i was trying to find it. Yeah, the Celtics ended up getting a number two and they got the Lembias pick. Right, because of the Seattle pick, right? So it's actually kind of indefensible

if you're just running an NBA team that you would have let Jordan play at all. And I wonder, like, I was thinking about, you know, Jordan's owned the Charlotte team now for the last decade or so. If he was in that situation as an owner, he'd probably be benching Michael Jordan or, or, you know, keeping him to the minutes restriction, right? Yeah, whatever. But, but

that could have been a huge pick for them. Cause Brad Doherty was the first pick, like even Ron Harper, I think was the seventh pick that year. If bias goes to them, who knows, maybe he doesn't party as hard that night. It's a good what if. Now, that's the only time I'm going to defend the Bulls organization this whole podcast. I've written about this a couple years ago. Their decision to basically break up that team after that 97-98 thing is the most indefensible decision slash strategy from any NBA team we've seen. It, it does, it doesn't make

sense now. It didn't make sense then. And I think there's been some revisionist history about why he retired. He retired because as I laid out in the piece I wrote two years ago, he didn't have anywhere to go. They, you end up going right into a lockout right after that. Phil Jackson's out. He only wants to play with Phil Jackson. He stays with Chicago. This is the late 90s, the era when teams weren't carving out cap space and keeping an extra $20 million to try to sign MJ. The only team that really had cap space was Houston. They ended up signing Pippen. So he could have glommed on to somebody else's situation,

played for cheap, tried to win more titles. He just wasn't going to do that. He had made like $36 million in the 98 season. He wasn't going to play for 4 million to try to win a title with Ewing or, you know, and he'd hurt his finger and he was just like, ah, fuck it. I guess I won't play. And when you think about it, how do the Bulls handle it that way? I, the stuff Jordan was saying about, we deserve to keep defending this title until we lose. It's amazing. The Bulls organization didn't feel that way.

And by the way, they had the rebuilding thing and it was a disaster. We've been laying it out in the redraftables. They ended up rebuilding three different times. There are so many things that happen and not just in sports, but things that happen where in the moment, it's the worst. Like, oh my gosh you know has everything anything ever been this bad because you know those of us that talk for a living those of us that are asked our opinions we want to sound profound we want to have that lasting moment like

if you get interviewed for this you're hoping to kind of say that thing that really really resonates like billy packer has a spot where he's like man jordan was amazing he's amazing we're like all right billy thanks for coming. Like Packer didn't bring a ton in his cut. You want to have that cut where it's like, this is amazing. I guess I just did a Billy Packer. Looking back now, 20 years removed, this hasn't been talked about enough. It hasn't.

Because I remember how I felt in the moment, finishing up school, starting to really get back into sports. Jordan had that contract where he was just sort of paid beyond everybody else, and he was worth it. But you're right. How could you, as Reinsdorf, how could you let Jerry Kraus, who just by looking at Kraus, you know who he is. You know everything about him just by looking at that little man, who was good enough to put this team together, ballsy enough to trade Oakley when Jordan didn't want to trade Oakley for Cartwright, who was, you know, a big that you needed back then to identify and trade up for Pippen, to draft, you know, B.J. Armstrong later on, Kukoc, Horace Grant, to draft that kind of guy. I mean, yeah, he had some whiffs, but everybody has whiffs. How could you let a man's ego, because he's not getting enough

credit as this Napoleon complex figure, as the GM, because he doesn't like Phil Jackson, how could you as Reinsdorf let that get in the way of, hey, it's Jordan who still wants to play. This team just won their third straight title. And by the way, we're winning 60 plus games. Championships are hard. Let's run this back. or we can have the greatest player in the history of the game retire. And then everybody just goes their separate ways without giving ourselves at least another really good shot at another title. Well,

they also crazy member in 97 after they win the second title, they almost trade Pippen to the Celtics. And it was going to be in retrospect, a catastrophe of a trade for the Celtics. It was the third pick the six pick. And I think it was their 1998 first round or two for Pippen. And which would have ended up being Chauncey Billups, Ron Mercer and the Paul Pierce pick. And at the last second,

it doesn't happen. Pippen almost got traded a couple of times during the nineties. One was a Sean Kemp trade that, that almost happened. And then as we find out at the end of part two, he demands a trade at that point, he's going to be a free agent. Um, what's the point? Who are they going to get to come back to try to win the title? And you know, the rest, they're going to, they're going to figure it out. We find out some stuff in the last two parts, spoiler alert, um, more about could Jordan have actually come back? Did they audible? The part I never understood is what if Jordan hated Kraus this much and so did Pippen, why didn't they exercise their leverage slash sway and be like, Hey, it's him or me. Like do that earlier. Do that when

he's coming out of baseball, like I'll come back, but you got to get rid of Jerry Krause. Like at some point, Reinsdorf wasn't going to value Krause more than this Jordan dynasty, this money machine that he had. I always wonder why Jordan didn't just do a him or me thing. Cause nowadays, I think it's somebody would, right? Oh yeah. I mean, and the thing is is like even though we go hey back then that's not how it worked we're talking about michael jordan we're talking about michael jordan michael jordan can't stand kraus pippen clearly hates kraus to another level where phil at the end of episode two has to say hey look we had to tell scotty you know you

need to need to calm down like you're getting on the team bus and you're just railing on jerry kraus and by the way like this is part of my anti-Pippen thing from back in the day, just because I've always had a hard time of really understanding where it's like Phil in one of the episodes that aired tonight, he says, you know, Scotty was completely underpaid. He signed a seven-year deal for $18 million in 1991. In 91, the highest paid player in the league was Patrick Ewing at like four and a half. I mean, hell, Jordan still had like 10 guys ahead of him on annual salary. So Pippen signs for seven years, $18 million. And then he bitched about the contract the entire time.

Well, there's one other piece to that. He, that was actually, I think he signed that early before he was up. He had a rookie contract where his agent fucked him on the rookie contract. So then to catch up, they gave him this longer deal early, earlier in the rookie year contract. So it was like, we'll pay a little more, give us a little more in the back end. I thought it was disingenuous for Reinsdorf to say, Oh yeah,

I told Scotty he shouldn't sign it. Like that's bullshit. He, that was an unbelievable contract to have Scott. And he was one of the best 15 players in the league. By the time he signed that contract, they had him for nothing. Right.

But Phil, Phil calls him the second best player in the world after mj and you go okay wait a minute wait a minute like look pippen is is great in the moments where he doesn't have to stand out and be great like there's all these little things going back and watching these redraftables or excuse me rewatchables that we're doing there's just moments where you're like okay yep this is this is why he was special but i remember just again being younger and just being an nba fan being like why is this guy constantly constantly complaining and then he gets hurt he does the surgery later jordan mentions that he's pissed off about the timeline of that surgery and then you know he's still in a suit at the start of this year that this is based on 97 98 they're losing games they're

four and four they have one on the road double overtime with a bad clippers team jordan goes crazy in it and at this point like pippen's demanding a trade but then at the same time too like kraus is up there and instead of doing the thing that we're all just accustomed to but it's part of the job like yes we wish people were more candid but when your gm's being asked at a press conference hey did you guys almost trade scotty And Krause goes, yeah, we had a lot of really good offers, but we decided to do something else. So Pippen loses his mind. So parts, I kind of go, you know what?

I'm siding with Pippen here. It's always tough when you sign a bad contract and then you resent it the whole time. But going into that final year, just so much more turmoil than we'd expected. But you're right. Well, they could have renegotiated the contract though. That was, they could have, because there's only, there was only one year left on it.

But, but then back to your original point on this whole thing in no version of any NBA argument, does a Jerry Krause figure win this thing in 2020, except for the fact that Ryan Storrs track record has been what it is. I mean, Paxson, the Gar Pax thing is finally over. Okay. Kenny Williams won a world series of the white Sox 15 years ago. And people in baseball are always like, yeah, I don't really know. I mean, this is kind of what Reinsdorf has done with both of the teams that

when you work for him, he's incredibly loyal when the entire city is ready to turn on you. So I don't know, obviously it plays some sort of factor into the whole thing. And the fact that Kraus did a really good job. I mean, he helped kind of fill in the pieces around it. But when, when your number, when,

when Michael Jordan is like, all right, well, if Kraus is going to get his way, I'm never playing again. And you go, okay, well,

it's impossible beyond the titles. Think about how much money that costs them. Let's say they figured it out and he played for two more years. And that's another eight months of tickets. It's another eight months. Even if you're not winning, it's 50 plus wins and say the worst case scenario is you lose in the playoffs. Oh my God. But you're

still raking it in and you're still selling that building out. And instead, for what they audibled into, and if you haven't heard the redraftables, which we've been doing on Book of Basketball, they luck out in 99. It's a three and a half month season. They they're terrible. And they get the number of pick. They get out and brand couple of years later, they flip out and brand, they get two of the top four. They take Tyson Chandler and Eddie Curry. That doesn't work out. And six years in, they finally have the foundation of something.

But rebuilding is a lot harder than it sounds. You know, what's also really hard is having the best player of all time. I just would have, at some point, like I think the players have way too much power. It's weird how little power they had in 98 that he couldn't convince them to be like, look, rehire Phil. Give Scotty a contract extension.

I'll stay for as long as you keep those two guys. I, if you're a riser, if you're like, great, good done, let's keep going. Let's keep this. Reinsdorf had to get on a plane to Montana to go to Phil and go, all right, let's work this out because Phil was up after 97. And clearly I think Reinsdorf, kind of going back, at least when we saw on the doc, knew, all right, well, wait a minute. We got to figure this thing out.

Jerry's daughter was getting married and Jerry invites the entire Bulls staff except for Phil Jackson, but then also invites Tim Floyd, who he hung out with on a fishing trip. And Floyd eventually ends up becoming the head coach, as we all know, and flames out in that rebuild.

And Reinstorf at least got on the plane, goes to Montana, gives Phil Jackson his $6 million for the year. Phil was underpaid in comparison to other coaches and all these other guys that had had really, you know, not the resume Phil Jackson has. And it just, it just, it just, it's like, look, the only thing that's weirder about the story is that Michael Jordan decided to play baseball for two years.

But this is- Well, the other thing is the rules were a little more favorable to mess around in the 97, 98 range. Like Jordan, they were just able to give him whatever salary he wanted. For some reason that didn't count against the cap. You were able to renegotiate somebody's contract. As far as I can remember with the year left, you know, you could, you could tack it on to F after that last year, things like that.

The coach thing, Jackson making 6 million in 98 was a lot of money. I think he was the highest paid coach back then, except for Riley. So it's re it's really weird. This for people who don't know the background of this story this DVD has been around since the late 90s the NBA Entertainment they asked to film for the documentary we're talking about yeah they asked to film the only deal they made

was we'll never do anything with the footage unless you say it's okay and they let them behind the scene and you got a little taste of it in the first two parts, but you get, you get much more of a taste in the next eight parts because this was more of a background setup, you know, first two. Okay. Give me your role, the origin of this, because this goes way back. I mean, you and Connor shell put together the 30 for 30, this kind of falls under that. So give me kind of the first inside look at, at these conversations when you guys are trying to figure out how to put something

like this together. Well, so we, we were doing 30 for 30. We had it going, it was in motion and I don't remember that the timeline. Oh, I do remember the timeline. Actually it was spring of 2009. It was when LeBron played Orlando because we had a meeting with the director during that series. And this was 30 Fingers in Motion. We were making them. And then we were like, oh, this Jordan thing. Could we get something? And we'd heard about this mystery DVD, but they- You heard about it. You'd heard about the DVD. This legendary DVD where they had followed him around. I was like, what's that? Well, you can't see it. Nobody gets to see it. I was like, well, we know some people have seen it.

So they ended up mailing us the DVD. I still have it. And it was their cut of this two-hour doc that NBA Entertainment had done. It was dated and you would have to take some stuff and change some things, do some interviews. But it was the real Jordan. And we were like, how do we...

Hey, by the way, I take no credit in this. This is just, this was a quick moment in time in oh nine, where it was like, could we turn this into a documentary? We taught, we brought in at least one really good director that we had sent him the DVD to see if they could do it. And, uh, and it just came down to the NBA. I didn't want to do it. And Jordan did Jordan. We had no chance. Whom did anyone that you knew like sit down with Jordan and approach him on about, about this. It,

the, the, the feedback we got over and over again was that it was going to be incredibly expensive. And for the NBA, for the amount of time that they had spent that season falling in the time, energy, money,

everything. And then on top of it, compensating Jordan, who also had to allow all this footage where, you know, as you'll see in the next eight parts, doesn't come off great in some of this stuff, but this is the real Jordan. He had no interest and it kind of died. We died. You didn't pay, you know, $10 million for documentaries in 2009. Who are you paying $10 million to though? You paying $10 million to NBA entertainment? You paying $10 million for documentaries in 2009. Who are you paying $10 million to, though? You're paying $10 million to NBA Entertainment? You're paying $10 million to Jordan? It never got that far.

The way they did this deal, this was a Netflix-ESPN combining. ESPN gets the live rights. Netflix gets the overseas rights. Then they eventually get the doc after three months or whatever. They put in real money. I don't know what the exact price is,

but I guarantee it was over $ 20 million, something like that. And then the production company gets some, the NBA gets a lot. And then Jordan, I'm sure it gets the most. Cause you can't do this without Jordan. You're not getting any interviews if he's not involved, you know, that it's a, it becomes a dominoes thing. Once it's like Jordan's in, he's producing it with us. That opens the door for all these things. But honestly, the documentary climate changed the last four or five years. It was inconceivable for anyone to pay more than 5 million bucks for a documentary five years ago. And now you look at what's happening even in the music industry. Like Billie Eilish's music doc went for like 25, 30 million and singer, uh, Beyonce's

Netflix thing was 25 million. The, the price for this stuff because of what we saw tonight, because you can own conversation. If you looked at Twitter today, it was hashtag glass dance across the board. Now we miss sports, but a documentary's ability to capture attention and get in the zeitgeist for two days, a week, whatever, that's worth something. In 2009, it wasn't. What's been going on to build up for this? I'm at home and I was looking at Twitter and I didn't want to be on Twitter for this though. I would tell you right now LeBron stands you're all right right now you're okay you know for the battle for supremacy like whatever it is there's a few arrow volleys your way and you're back at camp drinking grog going that wasn't so bad it gets worse it's gonna get worse guys

but I'm just saying your number you're like you guys are like ready for battle tomorrow you don't have it you don't have any deserters yet. Is there anyone else? Maybe it's Muhammad Ali. Is there anyone else that there would be this kind of anticipation for 20 years after they played to go, okay, we get like this 10-parter and it feels like anyone connected to sports is not only excited about it, but is also talking about it? Because that in itself is a thing. Like, I don't know what else could reach this. Well, it's him and Ali. That's it.

It is, right? That's the whole point. It was him and Ali. And LeBron is not in that level of the conversation. He's just not. But, you know, it's so, the timing of this was bizarre. But when we were at Kings was on today. Which is my favorite sports documentary.

Maybe documentary ever. So that's the best sports documentary of all time. And I say, and I say that as somebody who has produced a lot of sports documentaries, I, the reason I say it's the best is it's one part. If you're going to say the best multi-part documentary,

that's like a different conversation. The best documentary of all time is when we were at Kings because it's, it's like an hour and 50 minutes and it's incredible. And the footage and Ali and his peak. The James Brown concert edit and his training. Oh my God. Right.

I mean, you want to talk about being inspired. The when we were Kings James Brown scene. I lose it. So I try not to get frustrated by younger people too much. And I'm sure I did this when I was in my twenties and whatever, where, well, no, where you're just like, you, you tend to think everything that's happened in your recent lifetime is always the best thing. I, it worries me that people haven't even seen when we were Kings. Cause it's on Cinemax right now. And I'm sure it's on like the HBO ghost site. And if you care about sports documentaries and you love the 30

for 30, uh, series, and you love the OJ series and you're joining this Michael Jordan series, and you want to have conversations with other people about sports documentaries, it starts with when we were Kings, that thing, first of all, hoop dreams, which was the other, like, you know, really impactful sports doc. It's not nearly as good as When We Were Kings. When We Were Kings could be released right now and it'd be fucking awesome. And that thing is at least 20 years old, right? I don't remember when it came out. No, it's late 90s.

97 maybe? Yeah. It's impeccable. It's so good. And the story's great and everything about it. So I would highly recommend that one. But yeah, the journey of documentaries, you go back to Ho hoop dreams was I was in grad school and that was the first time a sports doc comes out and they're going, wow, this thing has a chance to get nominated for an Oscar. Like what? Um, and then all the way through when we were Kings was another big land point that I think

the legendary night series that HBO did was really important. HBO and ESPN both had some good ones. Black Magic was important. 30 for 30 was important, obviously. You go through. I think what's cool about this and why we'll remember it long-term, regardless of if people feel like it's an A minus,

an A, an A plus, whatever, is just what it meant for the quarantine, how we didn't have sports for five and a half weeks. And this is being treated as a sporting event. People are doing live after shows after a documentary. It's inconceivable in 2005, right? You know,

the black, the black magic one. I remember watching that in my hotel room when I used to live in a hotel there for a little while. But the Bob Love stuff is like one of the heaviest things I've ever seen in a documentary. And it was cool to kind of see the Bob Love part. And, you know, I'm too young for Bob Love. But just this odd amount of like just emotional sympathy you had for Bob love hearing him tell his story. Uh,

that was like, I don't know that black magic is really good and it doesn't ever get mentioned. No. And my friend Dan cores did that, who did the Reggie Miller 30 for 30 for us and also did basketball love story. And black magic was really important for ESPN because it was the first

really high quality nonfiction thing ESPN did. Because you go through the 80s, 90s, they're not doing anything other than Sports Century. Sports Century was important. It was what it was. It was a formula. Every single one of them was exactly the same. It was the same kind of behind the music type thing,

where it was like, but what Ryan didn't realize was that Danny Cannell wouldn't be around for much longer. And then it would go to commercial. And I didn't know. Yeah, you didn't know. Uh, but you know, it was good for what it was, but it was very, you watch those now and it's very primitive. I don't even think they would rerun those on ESPN. Uh, well, black magic was the first one that pushed the envelope. And that's a real pivot from some of the stuff they were doing because you know early 2000s they got really excited into the scripted stuff and playmakers was working and then playmakers was an nfl thing and the nfl calls

the shots and then you know hell i think the monday night lineup still might be getting punished because of playmakers but then wait don't forget tilt tilt okay see and that was a good tilt was a good show okay tilt was a good show but van pelt has has such a great story you got to get them on to tell this they used to have like the in bumps right or the promos they would do for the new scripted stuff on tv and i do think that there were like some old school on air guys that would kind of be like what are we doing like you know abc family here tonight so van pelt would have some fun with the promo reads as they tossed or whatever or maybe go to break and scott would go like and don't forget el diablo tonight and he started

like making up names he's like you know i carumba know, El Diablo's magic fire hand will be on tilt following us here. And then somebody like from the principal's office, like, hey, Van Pelt, fucking cool it on those. Set of those tilt reads. It wasn't just tilt. Remember how many movies they did? Little Bobby Knight movies. Oh, two, I think. They did a bunch of them.

They did Dale Earnhardt movie. They did a whole Bronx is burning miniseries, which was like secretly one of the most expensive ESPN projects ever. It was like three times as much as the budget was. So by the time we started innovating 30 for 30, it was just a mess. The, the, the, all the different projects were all over the place. We were just one of the many projects people were working on, but, uh, to watch it now, it's like this well-rounded machine where you have these sponsors and these sponsored segments in there. And it's like the vault presented by whatever. And then it's all going on, uh, there's stuff on plus and there's stuff on the website and there's after shows. And when we did the first 30 for 30, it, we,

they didn't even promote it and we put it up and then it was over. And we kind of hoped people would watch. I remember going on Twitter being like, oh, a couple people are tweeting about it. It was just a different era. So let me, because one of the first times I'd heard, look, I know Connor Schell's really close with you, but the first time he's sort of on the radar when I would notice other on-air people shaking him down at parties and stuff, I was like, all right, he's becoming a bigger deal. Right. they're on air people shaking him down at parties and stuff i was like all right he's becoming a bigger deal uh right you know the story goes is that um ezra who's who's doing the directing i forget ezra edelman is that the name yeah ezra edelman um we met a couple times really nice guy

does the oj doc and he goes to connor and connor's overseeing it and it's like okay so what do we have here it's like all right two parters and it's like now i need like six and i'd heard that connor went to skipper was like it's gonna be six and they went all right cool just go for it is that remotely true no i still have the pitch no it was always it was supposed to be four parts or maybe it was supposed to be three parts five maybe it was supposed to be three parts, five hours. I think Connor went and got, it ended up being five parts, but the pitch we always wanted to do like a multi-part whatever.

I remember we took, we, the one, the one I was the most excited about that fell through is Tyson week. I wanted to do Tyson week, like shark week. That was before. How did that fall?

How did that fall through? Cause it was, we were working on the second series. So it was the second 30, but then we knew that we knew the next iteration had to be, it needs to be a multi-part something. This is like the next step for 30, 30. Cause we're doing shorts at that point. We'd done the nine for nine. It was like, the next one is we need like a multi-parter. And we had, I had a whole, I had a really good game plan. We'd worked on this whole memo thing for the five nights and all that stuff.

But then if you remember, remember like right around that time, Tyson started, he did like a, he wrote a book and he did. Was it the Larry Sloman one? He did like an autobiography and he was doing. The Broadway deal. He did the Broadway thing and he was like an autobiography and he was doing the Broadway deal he did the Broadway thing and he was like available he was coming off the hangover

and it just didn't feel special so we ended up just kind of not pursuing it so the reason I even asked that go ahead finish the talk but I do have one follow up and then I'll get back to what we were doing the best part was

laying it out was with the Robin Givenss leading to buster douglas that would have been like that would have been one of the best hours ever yeah because he needs you know if tyson were smarter about this he would kind of like he does in his book the sloman biography which is an incredible read and he talks about all the stuff he's facing pre-douglas. And he should just go out there and be like, well, this is what I was doing. Sleeping with every maid that came by. And I had STDs. And I went in there and fought Douglas. And I was doing a ton of blow.

And I was just kind of like, oh, how did he lose to Buster Douglas? You're like, oh, okay. So you did the worst possible stuff leading up to this whole fight. I think that would work. The reason I'm asking, though, is that how much of the oj multi episode platform influences the okay you think even though i know you're not a part of this one like you would have been back in the day but that they do 10 parts or is it this kind of thing where it's like hey maybe if it's six parts let's make it 10 because we can sell more revenue i mean imagine all these things are factored in i would say making a murder was a bigger impact.

On this? Wow. Yeah. Because that, well, it just started a documentary trend in general where people started looking at multi-part documentaries because you get more money. It's honestly it. So that's why you see even Tiger King. That was probably what, two episodes too long? Especially if you count the last one. All of these are always padded because the more hours you're doing,

the more you're getting paid for. For this one, the way to really do this correctly was the way they did it. And I actually, I don't think this was too long. This is one of the ones that it's only 49 minutes per episode. And if it was on Netflix, it would probably be an hour a pop. So maybe it would be eight episodes instead of 10, something like that. I think it's the right length. I actually feel like

stuff like the Sam Bowie-Jordan draft, they could have done another five, six minutes on that. And I think you'll see some other stuff like the 91 finals that's coming up in a little bit. They could have gone way deeper on that. That was one of the reasons I wanted to do the podcast last week, but I just think it's cool. I'm glad. I'm really glad that he, that Jordan decided to do this. I'm glad that, uh,

they found an awesome director for it because that's another way this could have gone wrong. And I'm glad they got everybody and that everybody was still alive to talk about it, except ironically, Jerry Krause, cause he died, I think, a year ago. But other than that, all the principles are in this. Yeah, the Jerry stuff would have been fascinating. But, I mean, just looking at every cut and knowing everything we do about him, I doubt that guy would ever say, like, yeah, I was wrong. He wasn't going to say he was wrong. And he was wrong.

Woj was really in his corner. And I always thought it was, that was an interesting one. Woj, Woj was a huge Kraus guy. And I remember, I think he had him on a podcast, like,

fairly close to when he'd even died. But, really, like, respected him. There were, there were Jerry Kraus fans out there that thought he was, like,

a brilliant guy. He did what he did. I'm not knocking on those things. It's just so improbable at the end of it. Yeah. Well, we'll talk about the MJ doc way more down the line. A little bit later in this podcast,

we're going to do volume two of the rewatch of Bulls about game four of the Knicks-Bulls series in 1993, which is just a classic. We're going to take a break and then talk about the NFL draft. Hey, at-home fitness is on everybody's mind right now. Whether you're tuning into a friend's Instagram live fitness class or looking up yoga tutorials, people are finding really creative ways to stay active. Sometimes it's hard to know when to rest or when to push, but with the Whoop Fitness Tracker, it's so much easier to program your workouts based on your body's recovery. Whoop tells you how much stress your body can handle, how much energy you're

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let's audible to the NFL draft, which I think people are more excited about than any other draft ever, because we have nothing to do. We literally have nothing to do this. My son is excited to watch the draft with me. My son never in a million years would have said, Hey, let's watch the draft dad. But now he's like, yeah, we're going to watch the draft with me. My son never in a million years would have said, hey, let's watch the draft, Dad.

But now he's like, yeah, we're going to watch the draft, right? Where do you think Tua is going to go? I'm like, who are you? What is the plot you're the most excited about with this draft? It really is about Tua because if he were healthy, I don't think there's really any debate about number one. That's

how specially I think he is. I still think burrow is incredible um you know i was i was at the big game in bama and even though you know lsu put it on bama i kind of was like man there's still more things i like about tua and i know they were all stacked with there's like 12 nfl guys out there catching passes between those two teams but the ankle injuries before the hip injury which miraculously there's nothing better than pre-draft medical reviews where it's like his hip is even better than before. You're like, wait a minute. So his hip was crushed in a game and now it's better. That's weird. And that's

what they're saying. And I think a team just going to go ahead and take them because hell, half these guys end up flaming out anyway. So why not take somebody like him? So I'd imagine he goes really high and maybe there's a trade up for him because you've seen that happen so much historically. Well, you left out his, uh, he fucked up his wrist too. He's got,

he had three things over the years. I mean, I was just going, yeah, yeah. But so that would be one of the reasons I think, and I barely follow college football, but I love the draft.

And I think one of the things I love about the Tua whole subplot is I could see it going one of two ways and each way would make total sense, right? He goes to the NFL. He just keeps getting hurt. And he's just like, yeah, Tua's brittle. I mean, the guy was talented, but we should have known in college, he got hurt more. And of course that was how it was going to play out. Or I could see the other way. I'd be like, man, remember when we weren't sure if two was the top five pick? Cause he had a couple of injury things. It was the quarantine. And then he, you know, the Raiders traded up and got him. And it really does feel like hit or miss. I don't feel like there's going to be a middle ground. I feel like it is a little bit like the Odin thing, although not as many, maybe, uh, obvious red flags as Odin had, but same thing where it's like, oh man, if this comes through, this would be an amazing pick. But I do, I do think there's a world in which if he

goes by pick six, I wonder if like panic time sets in and the team start looking at each other and it becomes like a Paul Pierce 1998 situation. You think there's any way he falls out of the top six? I don't, I really don't. Um, and you know, even if, if we think, Oh no, you know, is he slipping here? Does this mean that everybody's kind of like got him behind their number one option and the number one option is there, right? Depending on how the board shakes out. But you know this. I mean, it happens in the NBA all the time. And how much variety is there on medicals with guys? Like I had heard stuff about Durant where like, you're that big, his feet, and he's had a couple problems here. He's never going to be the same. You know, Steph's ankles. Oh, you know what? This

is twice now. And look at all the time he missed. And you know, you got to worry about it. And then some guys stay healthy. If you think about quarterbacks,backs i mean there are quarterbacks like matthew staff for the beginning of his career it's like okay this guy can't stay healthy now granted it's not great timing for this comment now because the back injury but then he just played for a bunch of years same thing with drew breeze like oh he's not healthy can you really buy into that guy okay now he's one of the best statistical quarterbacks we've ever seen play the game so i think quarterbacks are a lot like nba lottery picks where I know when a team goes, yeah, you know, this guy's a safer bet at seven or eight, but this game is about adding a star

and we'll take the higher ceiling, younger guy, more of a question mark at seven or eight than the guy we know is going to be in the rotation for 10 years, because we know we can't get that other guy in free agency. And if somebody turns into something, then we'll have hit on this. I think GMs in the NBA are held to this kind of standard where it's like, you have to understand what they're doing, where they're collectively like agreeing, yeah, this is a little dangerous, a little riskier, but let's go for it because it's so hard to add talent. I feel like it's the exact same thing with quarterbacks. I mean, hell, if you can, and we don't know about Josh Allen yet, right? We don't know, but if you can talk yourself into him as a top 10 pick when the stats don't back it up and two years of film is still kind of all over the place in the NFL, then I think you can talk yourself into Tua who does some things.

And I taped with Dofer this week that's coming out this week who's working with Tua. And we did like 20 minutes on Tua. And there's just stuff that Tua does that I think is like NFL ready, NFL caliber with the way he looks off safeties and stuff he does with his eyes and the way he reads second and third options. And I wouldn't blame a team going, all right, yeah, we don't love his medicals, but what are we going to take, an offensive lineman? Right. The flip side would be when you aren't able to really study what he's like physically right now, this moment. And you're

a GM and you're, if you're a GM, what's your goal? Your goal is to keep your job, keep your job. Yeah. Yeah. Your goal. If it's like, you know, you're the owner, if you're Steve Ross, it's your team. You're like, well, if this doesn't work out, I'll still own the dolphins. If you're the dolphins GM, whoever the hell that is now, it's like, well, if this doesn't work out, I'm getting fired. I'm going to be on ESPN2 with freaking Marcus Spears. That's my destiny. I do wonder

when it gets really close, it's like the night of and Detroit is saying to the Raiders, hey man, 12 and 19. That's our price. We don't even want your second, just 12 and 19.

We'll move back. You can have three. And if you're Mayock and you're just going, all right, now I'm all in on two here. Maybe they want the third round or two. And Gruden's like, what do you think we should do? And now Mayock is thinking I'm in a really good spot here. I've only been here a year. Things are good.

Multiple first-round picks. I can take a left guard and a cornerback. Those guys take forever. And even if they don't work out, it's D-backs. People don't care as much. But if I'm like two as our guy, we're all in, and it's just a catastrophe, I'm out. I'm back on the NFL network.

So there's going to come, I'm out. I'm back on the NFL network. So that there's going to come a nut crunch time and I'll be interested to see which team it is. So my, my pick, and I studied it just like looking at the order and what people need, the team that has the most urgency and that just the need just for all things considered to be the chargers for me, where it's like, they're in LA. Nobody knows they're in LA. They're playing it. They're playing in somebody else's new stadium. They have no ties to any fan here. There's barely any football fans who like LA teams here anyway. And if there are, they like the Rams there, they have no ends. That's the move where it's like you gotta get Tom Brady well they didn't get him

you gotta get Tua and you're like yeah we're the team that has Tua that's something that's something to put in a stadium and if at the six pick I feel like that's the upside the question is you don't think he even falls to six no you brought up a good point because of what's going on now the

lack of really being able to kind of hands-on know exactly what you're getting into here with tool but i think people always kind of talk themselves into decision too when you have these positions you're right i mean the number one priority is keep your job that's why so many nba gms kind of resent and hinky because they're like wait a minute i'm worried about getting fired every year and this guy's openly advertising i want to suck at this it's like well no it's a longer picture thing but you know that's why the guys that are trying to win like 40 and 45 games look at it and be like i'm actually trying to improve my team and get better and there was a lot of resentment about hinky on that so when you look at it yeah from the football standpoint it is

like okay who is secure enough who's i mean mayock's just gotten the gig it's clear car isn't necessarily their guy um the chargers i don't even know if a tua pick does anything i mean you know you sell a few extra jerseys sell a few extra tickets i just you you can't understand how off the radar they are unless you live out here it's an identity right now they're they're zero they're like the they're the other now. They're they're zero. They're like the, they're the other team. They're the, they're basically the Clippers without even any of the Clippers history and none of the fun stuff or anything. They're just kind of the other team that's going to play in that stadium.

I have no idea why they even want to be in LA. So that's why I thought they were going to go all in on trying to get Brady. Cause at least that's an identity for two years. Obviously they thought that was stupid, but you know, I go back to like, what would you buy that you couldn't see?

You just buy, you're buying a blind basically. Like how far would you go? What's like, what's like the line? What's the line that we cross? Here's a case where people are basically buying into a franchise QB that their doctors can't look at. I think that's crazy. I would be afraid to take them. I really would. I, if I was the dolphins and I have those three first round picks, I have a really good

foundation. I'd love my coach. I'm in a division that Brady just left. I wouldn't take Tua. I wouldn't, I, I would just keep trying to add good players and be like, we'll worry about a quarterback next year. Let's keep building on what we have over rolling the dice. But it's so hard to do that in football. It's harder to have that longer-term view. It just is. And if you don't believe me, whenever I would talk to guys that came by and would hang out with us in the studio during NFL season, we would talk about some of these football players are like a polian.

What are these NBA teams doing? Like, well, you know, they, they're hoping to win 20 games and then, you know, three years of straight in the lottery and maybe package two of those people. You're like, what? Like the immediacy of the NFL season is just different. So even if you're saying it the right way, uh, even if your approach to it would be the right way, specifically for the dolphins, it's just hard to go, hey, do we like this guy?

Do we like everything that we've seen on film? Yeah. Have we called enough people that we feel comfortable that we're getting good information even though we're limited now in a way that we never would have expected before? Yeah. Okay. What if we think this is the guy? The film is telling us this is the guy. So let's just go ahead and take the guy and sit and say, let's just roll it out right now because we did some really good things last year and if we have the right guy now maybe like i understand

how anyone can talk themselves into that kind of situation and one of the most overblown quotes of all time uh and people love parcells because parcells is a great quote he's he's unbelievable at his job but like people have bought into parcells quotes so much that they just kept repeating them the whole if you take a guy at the top of the draft and it sets you back 10 years, that's the biggest lie in NFL law. It's just not true. Like, especially now with the way the contracts work, if you screw it up, teams are like,

all right, I'm ready to move on. Like, Arizona took Rosen and took Murray the next year. Right. And they may have something. So even if you're going, like, you can't, you can make a mistake. You could argue against it. But what you can't use is the not drafting to, or a top quarterback, you can't say,

oh, that really set your franchise back. No, it'll mean like, if he's not healthy, you'll play someone else and figure it out. Wouldn't you argue that this goes more wrong than right when you're taking quarterbacks to say, I don't know what the percentages is, but even look at the famous Sam Darnold draft and how many of those guys went in the top 40 or top 45 or whatever. Well, it's five QBs, what, in the first round, I think. I've referenced this before,

but I've done this thing where I went through the 20 years of first rounders. Is it 50-50? Is it 40-60? 50-50, and I was being nice about how I graded, hey, good career, meh, middle group, stayed in the league, didn't start all the time, not what you wanted out of a first rounder, and then straight bust, like can't be debated. And the straight bust were 50%. So I could even have bumped it up higher if I wanted to be meaner in the way I graded it. And I didn't make it really complicated with all these different metrics, but it's pretty clear.

Like, go through every first-round guy that was taken. And that's why in the Darnold year, you're sitting there and you're talking to yourself, and at Darnold, it's like, yeah, but I like Baker a little bit. But look at Josh Allen, and you're like, hey, you know two or three of these guys are going to suck, right? Like, it's not, the math will tell you there's no way all five guys are going to be awesome.

That's why I was pro-Saquon that year. The best running back I've ever seen in my life, Saquon. Yeah, you were early on that. I love him. By the way, they've won nothing with him. I don't know if that was right, but here's a deep cut. I'm going to give you a little deep cut right here. The Tua thing reminds me, and this isn't fair to Tua, but it might be.

It reminds me of the Grant Hill thing when Grant Hill became a free agent that year, but he'd hurt his ankle in the playoffs. Remember? And the Magic, they were so fired up to get two stars. They had built this cap space, and they were the first team that was really thinking about

following the model of Jerry West and Shaq in 96. Yeah, it was a couple years out, John Gabriel, and it was like, whoa. I remember reading about it going, wow, this guy's a genius. Yeah.

We could get three stars. Right. Right. And Duncan ended up staying. So they ended up getting grand Hill and T-Mac. If you go back and read the, the grand Hill stuff back then, they were major red flags.

Like he had a really bad ankle injury and the physical, we, there were some concerns, but they were so fired up to do it that they just plowed ahead. I think there are concerns with the two, a thing. I just don't think you can give somebody a physical examination through zoom.

It's ludicrous. Now, my question is what about house party? Well, you have a house party, baby. TikTok. My question is, do we think

at least two of these teams have figured out a super clandestine? We'll never tell anybody. Let's keep this between eight people. Total. We're actually doing a physical with, with two during the quarantine thing. Would you put it past two NFL teams to be like, hey man, we're going to take you at three. We're going to send two people there. They're going to be wearing hazmat suits. And we're going to put you through a physical

and we'll never tell anybody. Is that conceivable? Honestly, Bill, the shocking number would be zero teams doing it. Right. So you think at least two teams have done it so you think you think at least two teams have done it because i feel like at least two teams have done it how could you not how could you not right how could you not when you're going okay this is this high of a pick i mean despite everything we just said and saying ah you know let's go ahead and take the qb and what i love about the grand hill thing is that yeah it's a you know if i were running a team

and a doctor said he might die the first month we get him, then I'd be like, all right, now it's a no. Now what? Now I think it's a no. But then when you start thinking about NBA cap space, you go, okay, well, what am I supposed to do? Like turn down Grant Hill when we've been planning this whole thing this whole time and take three Keith Bogans? I don't want to do that. No offense to Keith Bogans, but I don't really blame teams for doing that kind of stuff

because it's so hard. So yeah, like back to the Tua thing. I mean, imagine if your owners are like, look, I don't, you know, social distancing, whatever. This is the top 10 pick. Like, let's get somebody on a bus or not a bus, but you know,

let's drive down there. Have a couple of guys drive down there and figure this thing out. So I don't know. I didn't really, had you read that or are you just theorizing at home in your spare time?

I'm theorizing it because I think our people are becoming more brazen than they want to admit to anybody. You know, like even Ben and I went to see my mom yesterday and we drove and she came out and we should just be like, well, we'll, you know, we'll talk from 15 feet away. My mom just comes right up to the car and leans in. She's got the mask on. We're like, mom, you're too close. She's like, oh, come on. I've got a mask on. I do feel like some people are breaking a little bit. And if you're an NFL team, we're like,

ah, we'll just send two doctors. It'll just be the two doctors and Tua. They'll be wearing things with the mask. It's totally safe. And we'll take you if you do the physical. I don't think it could be ruled out. Oh, it can't be ruled out. It can't be ruled out it can't be ruled out and it'd be amazing story to hear either prior to it because it sounds like the kind of schaefter story that you'll hear but it may not be it might be protected

one team one team trey met with tua i'm hearing location right right they examined him. He, you know, whatever. I was going to just do dumb jokes and I'm going to stop myself. Here's, so quarterback roulette. I'm going to give my picks for how I hope this plays out where we are two weeks from now. Now I'm including the Cam, Jameis, Dalton, all the rookies.

I think this would be the most fun scenario. I like the idea of Gruden and Mayock not trading up for Tua because Marcus Mariota is their guy. As a football fan, from a comedy standpoint, all of that, I hope that's their move where they're like, look, this guy was the second pick in the draft. He just needed a change the scenery. Cause by the way,

he doesn't need to change the scenery. He's not, he's not going to be a winning started quarterback. It's not happening, but I like the idea of them trying to make him happen in Vegas. I like to go into the chargers. I actually liked their weapons. I think he has a chance to be awesome.

If he could stay in the field with the weapons they have. And that would be exciting if, if like they backed or became the more fun LA team is the Rams are in their salary cap. I like the idea of cam in Washington and reunited with Rivera. I think that'd be fun. I love the idea of Jamis going to the pats for like one year, 3 million. Prove it. Do you, do you really prove that you want that who's going to be better next year jamis or stidham i mean come on anyone who says stidham is going to be better than jamis next year needs to have their head examined i don't know how i'm

not saying it's going to be no but it's a complete unknown at this point i mean the only people like him might not even be a starter right Right. The only people that like him are Pats fans that are talking themselves into it. So I just don't think Jameis... Like, when you think of pre-Brady Brady, what was the greatest part of it is he didn't screw up.

I mean, Jameis... If Arians couldn't figure him out, and Arians wanted him out there, out of there, excuse me, you know, whenever anybody's like, oh, but yeah, but look at all this yardage, and you go,

how can you turn the ball over this many times? And I think he fumbled 12 times on top of the 30 picks. So that just doesn't seem to be a Belichick fit, but sometimes Belichick is more excited about how little something costs versus what, you know what I mean? Like, oh wow. But then, okay, great. So you spent 3 million on a quarterback or 5 million on a one-year flyer and quarterback,

and there'll be some fake numbers in there or whatever, but agents are already over so where's all that savings are you just restructuring other things to have more cap space down the road because you went from thinking you were spending 25 maybe on brady who now we realize was never coming back before the season even started to jamis in single digits but now where's that savings going but they spent a lot of the savings on franchising guys and bringing back McCourty, things like that. I don't think they have the money anyway. You made the key point. Belichick loves nothing more than

getting somebody on a discount. That year that they signed Rivas for one year, $14 million, Belichick probably had to be hosed down after he agreed to that. It's like, Oh my God, we're paying the, one of the three best quarterbacks in the league, 14 million for one year. He had to, he had to have been so out of his mind, delighted about that. So if, if they can just steal one of these guys, which is conceivable because yeah, I don't know how many first round quarterbacks do

you think they're going to be four or five it seems like there's at least four well who do you have as the fourth jordan love yeah it seems like he's going in the first round maybe i mean it really depends on how the board plays out where you know one of the things like when aaron rogers dropping that was just something you could see on the board where you go, wait a minute, like, here's the quarterback story for these next 10 picks. So now this is a little weirder. And then even at Green Bay with Favre, you're like, okay, but then that kind of probably scares you because they go,

God, they like this guy so much they can't even believe they had him and they're going to go ahead and take him anyway. The way the board played, like, you'll see, hey, if they just drafted somebody, they just signed somebody, they brought somebody in. And I'm not talking about like one of these guys that's unknown. I like the Tua thing in L.A. because Goff has gone from bust alert to whoa to wait a minute, like his thing has been, he's already had like a 15-year career variance on what he is right now, which is incredible to do it in such a short amount of time.

And if you're a Rams fan and you're being like, oh man, I really liked this guy a lot more a year ago. And for that shift to have been like, if Tua turns out to be like the best version of Tua and he's with this Chargers team. Now, I don't know really what it would do dent-wise for the franchise, but at least the national storylines would be, just think like they ended up

with the guy that's the stud rookie versus golf, which is assuming a lot. Well, and the situation, the Rams are in, which the cooks trade, I think helped them out at least a little bit. Cause that looked like,

I still can't believe they unloaded that guy and got a second round pick. He said five concussions. I thought he was completely untradeable. But they're still in, in absolute hell with their cap situation. The Rams are one of those weird situations where had they won the Super Bowl against the Pats, everyone would have just said, oh, well, you know, they did it the right way. Yeah, they mortgaged it.

Yeah, they went all in. They didn't have to do the stuff they did. It would have been a Super Bowl win where I would have gone, yeah, they still really screwed up a ton of this stuff. The Gurley contract, the moment it was signed, was indefensible, okay? And if you don't believe me, other people were like, hey, teams,

guys that I know on teams called me, but you have to understand how terrible this contract is. Not only because of the position, not only because Gurley's banged up, but the timing of it to go ahead and do it a year

before they had to. They paid Goff all of this money into one year. Wait a second. On that one, also, just the history of giving running backs a contract like that is the quickest way to just commit football suicide over and over again teams have done that and it's worked out horrendously right the one position you should

never do that to the golf thing i can at least understand you know hey he was going to be up he was your franchise guy they talked about how like after the loss, this guy owned it. And it's like, man, it would be awesome to just be paid upon like how well you take leadership in something. Like he killed it at the podium. Here's 34 million a year. But that was kind of going to be the going rate, especially when you thought like he was going to be really special. And then as they said, which I agreed with, they go, we had all this cap space, but then we just front loaded into one year with him and we didn't want to sign any vets, so we paid him all that money. They trade for Brandon Cooks when the Saints and Pats don't want to pay him. He's not a one.

He's not a one. And now he's on his fourth team already, and they're the ones that paid him. So what they did do is they ripped the Band-Aid off, which I would give him credit for, but the whole reason the wound existed was self-inflicted. And well, and then you left out, they traded first for Ramsey. Right.

The crazy thing about the Ramsey trade, they do that Peter King column after, which I happily made fun of when it happened, where they did the whole thing. Like, you know, it was like the ultimate, we joke about the zig,

you know, they're like, they're good. They did the zag where they were like, you know, it was like the ultimate, we joke about the zig, you know, they're, they're good. They did the zag where they were like, you know, all these teams are saying first round picks matter. We're going the other way. They don't matter. It's like, this is crazy. How can you say first round, first round picks are the best thing you can have.

You can trade back. You can turn them into more picks. You're getting guys locked in blue chippers at a chief salary. Like, what are you talking about? It's an insane theory. And on top of that, it's like we have a massive salary cap dilemma. Yeah. Let's also not have any resources in the draft because we get to pay Ramsey because he's

miserable anyway, Jalen. So when, uh, when I read that, I almost wanted them to call Peter King back and Peter King tweet, say the Rams are talking about late NBA first rounders, not NFL picks. Well, it was the equivalent of an NBA team being like, you know, we've studied this in lottery picks. They just don't matter. We're just going to, we're going to trade ours every year. Top five picks over mid-level starter.

Yeah. Too much pressure on the guys. Listen, we've seen this over and over again in sports, but when a franchise starts trying to build their team based on we've got to win the fans over, it's never worked in any sport. And you could go back. I mean, one of the most famous examples of this

was when New Orleans moved to, um, the jazz, they moved to new Orleans and they traded two really juicy first round picks for Gail Goodrich, who was this Lakers guard. Who? Yeah.

Right. He's the, like a CJ McCollum type. And he was near the tail end of his career. They went all in on him. Then they traded more picks for Maravich. They just completely gutted their team. They're like, we've got Maravich and Gail Goodrich to, to, uh, to score first guards,

but the fans are going to love it. It's like, guess what? The fans don't love going 30 and 52. Like just, just have a team that wins. That's, that's, what's going to matter. I don't know why they were so concerned with trying to have stars for the stadium and have stars in la like nobody cares so it's my son's gonna wear a todd girley jersey because they gave him 40 million dollars a year or whatever they gave him like i it's just the dumbest uh philosophy i you know some of the other

the other arguments too were like you know this just proves that this franchise takes care of their own you know homegrown and all this stuff you go yeah it's so great so what does it mean when they have to cut them which they did yeah and then he doesn't get the money that you know or all make-believe years anyway on the back back into these deals uh whenever you have the marketing people the sales people the promotional people stadium people you have any of those people influencing the sales people, the promotional people, stadium people, you have any of those people influencing the transactions, you know, you're going to end up getting fired. You just are. And, you know, some NBA guys and certainly NFL guys, I would say even more NFL guys can, can distance themselves from it, but we've seen it so many times in the NBA where you just go,

but what the hell were you doing here? And then you'll hear the explanation for it. And you go, you know, we just needed some buzz. Ticket ticket sales were down we didn't have anything to really sell and you just go cool you got you got buzz and we used to always joke about it where it was win the luncheon so the sec introduces their new head coach and he's out there and he's kissing babies and waving the pom-poms and he's shitting on the rival and you're like yeah but this guy's like on the way out like this guy's been done for five years he's not gonna recruit the way he used to he's not gonna his offense is outdated so yeah you won you won the press conference you won the luncheon and i can understand like look i can understand when teams do it because it's just like this

sucks but it doesn't usually like you said it doesn't usually go hey you know what's great is we gave in to everybody else influencing a basketball decision except for the actual basketball people or football people in this case. The Knicks have been the most guilty of this over the last 45, 50 years. I mean, they, in the 70s,

they tried to sign Will Chamberlain. They gave Spencer Haywood a ton of money. They tried to sign George McGinnis. They thought about trading for Dr. J. It was like year after year after year, they traded first rounders for Bob McAdoo. And that's been the mindset really ever since over and over again.

Remember the Larry Johnson trade they made? Yeah, I was researching it for this pod, as we mentioned earlier. Yeah, it was like his contract, I think, was 12 years, 84 million or something bonkers like that. And and they were like, cool, he'll get the fans talking. Meanwhile, like his back was already messed up. He couldn't jump anymore.

What about what about the rumblings of like LeBron's final destination? And you'll read something or hear something where it goes, you know, he wants to play with his son one day, which is true. I mean, this has been out there for years that he would hope his son is good enough to play in the league and lebron would love to be his teammate it's like you know that could be like the nicks you're like cool cool nicks you're gonna you know i mean this is making fun of something that hasn't even happened before but it's definitely been in the the rumblings of all the nonsense scenarios that could be out there so yeah we're on the same page on this one. If he wants to play with his son someday, he might have to go to Russia.

Um, I have, I have a couple, uh, I have a couple more. Um, that was harsh. Well,

he's, he's a tweener. Like he's got to grow. If he's already breaking him down. Oh, he didn't, he didn't, the state title semifinal game.

He didn't even play. So, you know, is he a freshman or a soft? I just think he's a freshman. I just think it's crazy to talk about ninth graders. Oh, and when LeBron jr. Joins the NBA, the kid hasn't even finished growing yet.

We have with the next, with the next draft and though, if they knew it locked up LeBron and free agency. Well, the thing is he might, he's an incredible athlete, but right now he's short. So he'd have, he'd have to grow to like six, four, six, five. He's a, he's not a point guard. He's a shooty guard or he's like kind of like a combo guard. But I just think, I think it's nuts to put pressure like that on 14 year olds who haven't even grown into their bodies

here. Like, well, when LeBron jr makes the NBA, this is the thing that people just say on TV shows now. Well, you know, he wants the thing that people just say on TV shows now. Well, you know, he wants to stay around long enough to play with his son. There's only 400 NBA players and only 40 new ones come in every year. Like to just assume that LeBron's son is going to be an NBA player, I think is crazy. No, that's fair. Yeah, right, right. On talk shows, it's just he already has a roster spot.

It's like a foregone conclusion. Yeah, right. It would be a foregone conclusion if he was like LeBron was in high school where LeBron as a ninth grader was the best guy in Ohio and the best player in a team that won the title.

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I have one more thing that would make me happy with quarterbacks. Pretending he's not unhappy, Andy Dalton being stuck in Cincinnati. But then as we get into like that August, September range with an injury or something, there's a whole week of Andy Dalton, where's he going content. So like the C block? C block Andy Dalton content? Andy Dalton, sweet steaks.

He's not happy. I can't believe it's April. This is the quarantine talking right now, but it's April and you're already excited about August Andy Daltonton rumor mill bears not happy with foals or trubisky could that be where dalton's going next on first take um they just go right into it i have one in addition to what you have i like cam in pittsburgh oh so you're saying able place you know it's a it's a great organization ben you know do you want to bet on ben's health at this point and you know i probably like their defensive talent more now than their offensive talent but it always feels like pittsburgh like hey guess what we're

just going to find two stud receivers every time we do this uh i would i would like cam to not have to be the focus of the franchise like he was in carolina and maybe these are all ancillary things that don't really matter like is cam an all-timer no is the mvp year kind of fluky in the comparison the rest of his years yes but he doesn't have to be the guy which would be like the first time in forever for cam going all the way back to Auburn. And maybe he wouldn't like, I don't know, but I just feel like, Hey, Cam, this is the way you would say to Tomlin come here. I know it. I know you want to be a starter week one on one of these franchises. Ben's always hurt. And you know, maybe it kind of goes right this year and then

Ben moves on and maybe this is your team and you're in a stable, structured thing here where it's not all on you. And let's get you healthy too. So if you had... Yeah, I just want to see him structured. Something structured with Cam. Hold the Cam thought. If you had to bet on Roethlisberger or Rivers being washed up first,

who would you pick? Oh, man. Because I think Rivers is washed already. I thought what I saw last year, there's no... I was telling some of the ring NFL guys they were texting. I was saying how

when you lose the mobility and you start throwing picks as a QB, it's over. It's like when the dog starts going to the bathroom in the house, the dog's just like, fuck it. I'm just going to take a shit in the carpet again. Like a Logan Roy. Yeah. Could you do that outside? The dog's like, nah, I'm just going to do it in here again. You're like, oh man, we might have to take this dog to the vet. When Rivers, you can't move side

to side anymore. You're just getting crushed and you're throwing it up for grabs with three minutes left. That doesn't change that. That's who you are from that point on. And there's no going back. So I think he's washed, but I think I wouldn't be surprised if we never saw like a meaningful Roethlisberger moment again,

because I felt like he was on the fringe anyway, just because he'd taken so many hits. He reminded me of like that when Coates on the Pats, when he hit this weird point. He had dragged three defenders down too many times over the course of five years. And all of a sudden, he just couldn't move anymore. It was like, oh, man, Ben Coates is done.

So I could see Roethlisberger just being shot. Roethlisberger is going to be 38. And seriously, Roethlisberger's 2018 to be 38. And seriously, Roethlisberger's 2018 season was almost underappreciated. Monster! Yeah. I mean, he threw for... He didn't throw 34 touchdowns isn't crazy anymore, but he was the league leader in yards.

His completion percentage was 67%. 320 a game. I know it's not all yardage, but I still like Rivers' health better than Ben's. And I'm not just saying that because Ben just missed, you know, most of the season, but I like Ben's going to stay in there and get clobbered. He's going to tell you after two.

Um, but I don't know, get away. Rivers needed to get away from that sundown coming. I squint and screaming at everybody. Although, you know, you, like you said before with Tua there, the Chargers receivers are totally underrated. And Eckler, too. They're good, right. Yeah, I like that, Tim.

But I guess I haven't given up on Rivers, and it's not because I'm anti-Ben, the player. I just, I don't know, maybe it's the end for both of these guys. It wouldn't be shocking. I mean, they're drafted a decade and a half ago it happens I was saying Manning had that last year when he was nine TDs and 17 picks and you just look at his pro football reference page and because they won the the Super Bowl that year and I think people remember the whole Manning performance a little more fondly than what actually happened you throw

nine tds and 17 picks in a season and you're in a brock osweiler quarterback controversy which did happen remember osweiler came in and looked good and it was like ah should they just put manning on ice like is this should this just be over every quarterback it has to happen to and and it has even far of when he had that rejuvenation with the Vikes, the next year he was terrible. He just lost it. He lost it. That first year in Minnesota was insane coming off the Jets year

where you go, okay, maybe he's done. And then he's like MVP level with it. And then, look, the Manning thing I'll never forget because I lost my mind about halfway through the season because Denver was on so many of those primetime games. And every one of the announcers that had done a production meeting with peyton and he's so likable and he's such a personable guy and he's been around forever all those guys liked him so you know he would throw a 15 yard pop-up that somebody caught because that's what he had to start doing

he started starting pop-ups and so the corners the safeties were able to adjust to some of these throws so the ball was in the air longer because he couldn't couldn't zip on it anymore and you know collinsworth would be like they say that man i look i tell you they they a lot of people saying peyton can't make that throw that's a throw right there and you're just like no it isn't he's seven for 12 for like 40 fucking yards like what are you doing obviously i got way too upset about it and then that was no it bad. It led to because it was happening every single national broadcast with Manning where he'd make one or two nice throws. And the announcer would totally have his back because they liked him. And I get it. Look, they went up on a Super Bowl.

It's insane how great that defense was and what they were able to do. But that also led to the awesome post-Espy's party at Conner's party where Peyton's wife was like, you got to meet him. And I was like, hey, what's up? He's like, oh, hey, Ron. And I was like, hey, what's up? He's like, oh, hey, Ron. Nice to meet you. And she's like, he shit on you all year. And I was like, oh, hey, cool. This is going to be awesome.

Well, you know, we won some games. We were able to pull it out. He shit on you all year. The wives get more mad than anybody. She was so nice to me. And then she's like, he shit on you all year. And then the only thing that saved me was that she goes, Danny Connell was way worse though.

And I was like, and I couldn't say anything. I wasn't going to say no. I had your back all year. You should have done a pause and just been like, I mean, you did throw nine TDs and 17 picks. Like to be fair, to be fair, the cam thing, I feel like it no i just feel i like it for pittsburgh i the moment he signs with the pats if it ever happened i would talk myself into it in 1.4 seconds i feel like he's been hurt for two years i've been hearing about that shoulder forever but

i feel like when he's healthy i do feel like he's right there with, with Wilson, with these guys where when you're going against them and he came in and he won a couple of games in new England where you're just like, fuck this guy. I don't know how to beat this guy when he, when he's really feeling it. I would like to see him on a different team, healthy, doing his thing again. I still believe he's young. He's that way. Is he, is he even 30 yet? 29? Yeah, 30 this past season.

So, he's not Russell Wilson. Can we put that one to bed? Because Russell to me is like. No, Russell's better. You know what I mean though. Russell's like solidly in that top five for me forever healthy. Like a healthy Russell Wilson. Well, no, I'm not saying

all time but I'm saying currently like in his prime years I can't start a list of five and leave Russell Wilson off I just can't and there are those little plays in between the broken play the third and seven flushed out rolls right spins it back left turns his body that baseball throw and then he lobs it up over two guys and it just falls into some dude's hands and you know it's a first down like he's just i love those russell wilson plays and with cam i did too you know the the there's almost like these moving cam arguments like there are with a lot of these guys right so one is okay is he this franchise guys he awesome he's his winner 2015 you're winning those arguments you're like whoa like this is insane how good this guy's becoming like is this an extended version of flacco's playoff run yeah it kind of is and then

after that you're like hey there's some good games there's some bad games and then it's an argument about his weapons but the health thing even though i agree you know when you're that big he knows how to play the game one way and he takes a beating the way they would run him in short yard situations but when he was good i'd never hear about the shoulder. And then the pro-cam people, as soon as you're like, what is he doing right now? And then the pro-cam people would be like, oh, he's hurt. They're like, well, what about when he was good before?

He was still hurt then. And I'll never forget co-hosting with Willie Colon, you know, played a long time and just awesome guy, by the way. And Willie, I was like, what's up with Cam? And he said it on the air he goes he's he's not the smartest guy i've ever played against he goes we had this situation where or no i think he was part of the super bowl where he was like there's two plays he goes in it's very remedial blitz protection stuff where they got him twice with the same thing and he's

like most quarterbacks would never ever allow that to happen he goes there's just stuff with cam that he doesn't figure out the way other guys figure out so i don't know if that's a fit for belichick i don't know if that's willie you know overstating it um that's really played right the thing that the the reason i brought up him and wilson because i do feel like they're guys those are two guys that they could win these games against really good teams. And you would kind of be watching going, we can't stop this guy. And I can't really figure out why,

especially like Carolina would have those years where Cam's number one receiver was like Devin Funchess. Musha Muhammad. Or Curtis Samuel. Yeah. And, and Cam is just like moving down the field. And the same thing with Wilson, where you're like,

who's that guy? Where's this guy? How is he getting this much out of DK Metcalf? Where they could just take the sum of the parts and do shit. Lockett was awesome this year. And Baldwin, I think, has always been kind of underrated when he was going well. And you had Greg Olson there for Cam.

You know what I think this is? You know what I think? I'm going to explain to you what you're thinking. You're mellow theory, unlike mellow prime mellow expecting to be able to beat the other players that were all in a tier ahead of him was a great observation. And I brought this up before when you said it, it's like sometimes you need a guy that looks at LeBron and looks at the

other guys and looks at Wade and says, Oh, I'm just as good as you guys are. Like, yeah, I think cam thinks that cam doesn't think any of and looks at the other guys and looks at Wade and says, well, I'm just as good as you guys are like, yeah, I think cam thinks that cam doesn't think any of those guys at the top of the quarterback class are necessarily better than him. And I don't know if that's something that holds him back in a new role or a

team that may need a little juice. It's a little down on itself. Uh, if that's exactly what they need and that's the real wild card would be his approach, his personality from being the man to not having to be it. And is that piss him off? Does he,

does he shut down or is it a team that's like, Hey, we love this guy. We liked it. He has this much confidence in himself because we haven't had this position in a while. He's won some playoff games, which I like.

And I, there's a fearlessness with him that if his shoulder is healthy, I feel like should come back. It's not like he's 37. I don't know. I think he's a good gamble for somebody. So who do you, does that mean you want cam more than Jameis on the pats?

No, I, cause I don't think this pats team is a contender this year. I just don't. I think they've Belichick has screwed up too many drafts recently. I think from a value standpoint, I think one of those guys or both of those guys is going to be a steal. If you can get cam for even one year,

9 million or something and just be like, yeah, we'll try to rehabilitate. You see how this works. And if this is awesome, we'll take care of you with a much bigger deal. I think that's a great, you know,

a great move for somebody. Um, last thing on to, uh, if the Raiders did, the Raiders are like 12 to one to great move for somebody. Last thing on Tua. If the Raiders did, the Raiders are like 12 to one to trade up for him. If they did trade up and they do have the pieces, if they want it, and then they're going into Vegas

with Tua and John Gruden, the whole thing, and then Tua actually turned out to be good. That's probably our most fun scenario, right? The Vegas Raiders. Oh, Tua's good. And that whole thing. And they're there now he's in the AFC West. He's going against my homes twice a year. Um, I would enjoy that. I hope he's good. We need more good quarterbacks. We don't need like another Greg Oden situation. Can I ask you something though on the Raiders thing? Yeah.

I totally agree on the Marcus Mariota deal. Like I go, he's the kind of guy of like, he threw a touchdown on a national broadcast. Even the announcer would have a hard time selling it, but they would, because it's just what they do. They're like, oh, you know, he makes, there's some throws in there that you really like. You know, I think one of the dumber things that ever happens is when people do

this weird connection thing. Like if a guy went to the same school, like JJ Reddick somehow is mentoring Zion Williamson because Zion was at Duke for a few months. Yeah. And there's like, yeah, you know, JJ would be able to pull him aside. JJ may be able to pull him aside because people like JJ Reddick, but that Mariota would be like, Hey, that's really good. Like mentor to a Hawaiian. I just want to hear that. I want to see that story written where it's like if he ends up with the Raiders, be like, what a perfect fit. And Mario to be there. Did you know the to a message board story from Alabama?

Did you know this? You didn't know about this. This is like a famous college football thing. So when Tua shows up and everybody was kind of like, this guy's sick. But Jalen Hurts just won sec offensive player of the year as a freshman and you know they're a defensive stop away from clemson him winning a title that night in tampa and you start hearing more and more about tua and i don't spend any time on message boards but this became a thing it was it was out there some alabama fan was like

look i don't know what's going on with tua hearing things maybe he's picking up the offense a little slow but he is a foreign player and is the school doing anything to maybe get him a translator is there like a language barrier people were like hey dude he's from fucking Hawaii okay oh my god translator they were afraid he there were rumors that he wasn't picking up the offense quick enough in practice. And there was a Bama fan. Again, I am not saying this represents all Alabama fans. I'm just saying this one thing became this really infamous thread where the poster was worried that there was a language barrier because he was a foreigner. That's a guy who's probably not successfully practicing social distancing right now.

I would guess. I had one more question for you since you love college football. Did you see the flights to Jacksonville? How cheap they are? Jalen Hurts. There's some, oh, he might go in

in the first round kind of buzz. The Patriots, you know Belichick, who I'm convinced doesn't really watch college football, but does have like the coaches that he relies on. No, he does. He does. Like you can go through it and go, he likes this coach. He likes this coach. He likes this guy. Saban has to love, like if he calls Saban is like, Hey, should I take Jalen Hurts? I'm not going to take with 23, but I could trade back to 28, take them there. Um, do you think this guy could be like a really

good starting quarterback and say like yeah i fucking love that guy i had a once in a generation prospect and tua and that was the only reason i had to play tua like he's the best quarterback i've ever coached jalen hurts is gonna be an awesome pro you should take him could you see belichick taking jalen hurts no because i don't think Saban would say that. I think Saban would say Jalen's an amazing guy. He's an incredible athlete. He's like one of the strongest players on the team.

It's not a matter of arm strength, but he never, I thought, got better at the progressions. And Herbstreet pointed it out on broadcast in the Herbstreet way of being incredibly nice, but I've been around Herbstreet long enough to know when he's being critical. And yes, he got benched for an insane talent in Tua, but there were, I thought, consistently limitations. So I want to hear about all those numbers at Oklahoma. That offense opens it all up for all those guys. It's still TBD on all the Oklahoma guys.

And I think a team is going to talk themselves into Jalen because he handled himself like an absolute pro in a really disappointing situation for a young kid. I think Sab team is going to talk themselves into Jalen because he handled himself like an absolute pro in a really disappointing situation for a young kid. I think Saban would rave about the kid. I would be shocked if he's telling Belichick, who I think is more than just the NFL guy. I think a team that takes Jalen in the first round is making a mistake, and there you go.

That's my take on it. Who's your favorite quarterback other than the top two? Favorite quarterback? I would just want to give you my favorite player at cd lamb at oklahoma baller just baller you know it's tough to argue against jerry judy and more people i think have judy ahead of cd lamb um i just think there's something about cd lamb and i also think derrick brown the kid from from auburn the d tackle in another world he should be the first pick in this draft he just should I mean he just was one of those guys even if you didn't watch Auburn you didn't watch college football all the time you'd be like wait a minute who the

hell is this enormous single digit guy in the D line like why is he on every single play like nothing will ever be in Dominican Sioux for me at Nebraska that final year where when you watched in Dominican Sioux you're like this what what the fuck is this? This is insane. And I still think as good an NFL career as Sioux's had, it's kind of disappointing compared to what I wanted it to be. But Derek Brown is kind of at that level. I forgot to tell you, my son's really into football now. Yeah. He goes into an LSU game. He goes into these stages, right? So he'll go like, he really got in wrestling when he was like six.

He really got a Michael Jackson for a couple of months. He goes from like obsession to obsession and he's now obsessed with the NFL. And it started with the video game. And then we started playing Matt and kale and they have these legend cards. So he got to know all the legends. And now the last couple of months, he's just been on YouTube watching like condensed games, America's game.

So now it's progressed to the point where we downloaded the NFL app and they have those football live shows. He's been watching those. And he's always asking me like, who's your best three? Who are the best four guys? Who do you think are the three greatest? And I was always like, my answer is always like Lawrence Taylor, Jerry Rice, and then

probably Brady. But like, I just feel like Taylor and Rice have to be the first two. So we watched a football life with Taylor and they have, they have the North Carolina footage of him when they kind of figured out what he was his junior year. It's some of the most unbelievable footage. It reminds you where you talk about Sue, it reminded me of this where he's just like demolishing three guys on the same play.

Like he's, he's blowing over the blocker and then throwing the running back into the quarterback for the sack and shit like that. It's Lawrence Taylor, North Carolina has to be like the number one defensive highlight guy. But I, I still have him one. He's the greatest football player I've ever seen. He's still my, I have him one a and I have Jerry Rice one B.

Yeah. It's kind of tough to argue. I think Moss, cause they started playing some of the Moss highlights again that were making the rounds this week. And it's just so funny that he could, he could admittedly not even try as hard as you would want him to. And it didn't matter. He could have double coverage

and it weren't even like, it wasn't even go routes. And yeah, like imagine being Dante Culpepper. Like, I wonder if Culpepper ever had a moment where he's like, oh my God, I can't believe how good people think I am. Because of course he didn't. Right. He had a couple of huge years. He had a couple of years. You're like content call paper. This guy's incredible. And then you take them away from Moss. You're

like, Oh, wait a minute. Nevermind. Um, I had, so my top four, if I had to do a Mount Rushmore, just the guys I've seen. Cause then if you're going backwards to the Jim Brown era who knows but uh Taylor Rice I think Brady has to be on there and then my four spot is either Dion well I I don't know you don't have Dion's not even like I'm not saying he has to be three but I think he has to be brought up here at some point yeah he has to be brought up but I think Montana has to be brought up here at some point. Yeah, he has to be brought up, but I think Montana has to be four because I left the Montana experience telling myself like, just, just remember 30 years from now, that was the best quarterback you've ever, you've ever seen. There's been guys that have passed him. And I think Brady, obviously the longevity, but when you go back and watch this football from the eighties, you always joke about how the bad boy pissed in. It was, oh man,

every time you drove to a lane, you just got, you know, clotheslined in the basket. It wasn't totally like that. Football really was incredibly dangerous if you're a quarterback. Like Montana gets knocked out of the Giants-Niners game in 90

on a hit that if it happened now, I feel like sports would stop for a month so we could just regroup. Yeah, but like, Oh my God, what, but that happened all the time. And these guys took crazy hits and that guy's diving at their knees and for all the shit he was able to do and how great he was, they almost went, they almost went back to back to back. I mean, if the giants, if Roger Craig doesn't fumble, now they're playing the Bills in the Super Bowl. They probably beat the Bills. They could win three straight Super Bowls in the 80s. So anyway, he would be my fourth. And then I'm in the Moss Dion range after that.

But to me, LT and Rice are unassailable. They have to be the first two. If for anybody in my age group, if those aren't your first two, I don't know what you're watching. Yeah, I guess the only other one, I mean, if we were, and I'm not trying to be like football nerdy on this, but I really do think Larry Allen with the Cowboys. Oh, wow. Yeah, because just anybody that you've ever talked to that played with him against him

and then just every, every, like Larry allen sounded like the guy from the avengers that was like too busy like i'm just gonna play football like sorry i can't be in your superhero group who do you have for best defensive end ever for you so we're not calling a sack you could be so it's it's third and eight and you need a sack. So we're not using Lawrence in this because he's a linebacker? No, no. I'm saying like linemen. So like the Reggie White, Strahan, like that, those kind of guys. Nose tackle, you could put Sue.

It's probably Reggie White. Well, Sue wouldn't be mine for the NFL. Reggie White is probably the guy. Derek Thomas is probably worth bringing up. I don't know. know yeah it's funny it's because they have all these in madden ko they have all the legend cards and there aren't any like as many legendary defensive linemen as i thought they would be you know that like me joe green and too tall jones people like that but um and then you go back to the fearsome foursome, all those guys, those are before our time,

but yeah, I'm too young. I'm too young for the Minnesota stuff. And then Pittsburgh, I mean, just Bruce, Bruce Smith was another one, but they're all kind of around the same,

but LT and rice were just so clearly, you know, at the end of the LT thing, Belichick's just like, he's the greatest football player I've ever seen. Like he's in Belichick. Doesn't say things like that. You know, Belichick's just like, he's the greatest football player I've ever seen. Like he's in Belichick doesn't say things like that. You know,

Belichick's not like, here's my, here's my hot take on best players ever. And he's just like, yeah, he's the greatest player I've ever seen. No, he's almost offended.

It's, and it's the best way ever. How complimentary is of it? Where he's like, well, you know, I don't know which time he's quoted it, but I'm,

I'm just basically combining the number of times I can remember Belichick saying like, okay, well, you know, look, there's Lawrence. And then, you know i don't know which time he's quoted it but i'm just basically combining the number of times i can remember belichick saying like okay well you know look there's lawrence and then you know like this guy ain't lawrence how much of the uh nfl 100 have you watched because we we taped all those so there's in the ed reed one which made me want to watch the whole series they're talking about this play ed reed makes on manning and they where he set it up previously he set it up and he runs two steps and then just veers to where he knows the ball is and they go and collinsworth sets it up and he finishes and and it seems like the moment's going to be over and belichick just kind of comes in and he goes that is the greatest play I've ever seen a safety make. And he gets so excited. It's like fucking porn for Belichick. Like he he's honestly, and he's going over and he's like,

no, it's a go route. Like Collinsworth had a, like a little detail wrong. Belichick's correcting him going through and how upset Manning was and how they studied it on tape. And they just couldn't believe Ed Reed pulled that off. And Ed Reed is, for the safeties, there's been some great ones, but he's got to be in that conversation too. But I've been thinking a lot about my all-time just guys I've watched. This is a whole podcast for us, but I've always had that.

Ed Reed's like another level guy too, because the big thing is always the reverence, the way other guys will talk about some of these dudes like when you're sitting there with darren woodson and you ask darren woodson who was an awesome safety you know borderline hall of famer with the cowboys and a guy that you know you spend a lot of date you know how it is i mean you weren't you were lucky enough to not be in bristol every day but when you're there and you're around these dudes all the time and you'll be like hey but like I remember it was one of the first times I realized like McNabb wasn't

great. I was like, man, McNabb really carried that Eagles team. Like, you know, he's, he's kind of underrated. And like a dude was like, what? And I went, Oh, and then he's like, what did you like about him? What did you, and I go, well, you know, if you go the percentage of offense that he was for the Eagles, those first few years, he's like, yeah, do you like when, uh, the ball hit the dirt all the time in the second half of his career did you like and I was like oh no like I realized I struck a chord and since you know I'm not even close to the level on the NBA stuff where I'm probably more impressionable but it would always kind of make me think but you know Ed Reed is definitely in that group the way guys would talk about stuff and and moss you

know it's like moss is kind of in that group of like he was too good for the nfl and i i think he's the second best receiver ever by any argument just from talent the year he had an 07 which really pushed over the top but he had like three or four signature like really really pantheon years combined with the eye test right i think how many times do we have a guy that shows up and you go all of the hope that we have for the next big thing right that's why we all love the draft in both of these sports so much because you're hoping you're actually going to see some version of something you've never seen and almost 99 percent of the time we are let down but there's always that one guy that you go oh like he's really going to be this thing and moss from the jump with minnesota watching those games oh my god what is like somebody like

this exists like somebody can just show up to the nfl and dominate these men like this like he can be like he's really going to do this. And you know, it happens just enough, maybe once every 10 years, if that, where we constantly have this open mind, hoping that it's going to happen more often. And it doesn't.

When he showed up in the pats and those first couple of games, when they were just wreaking havoc and that jets game, when he had the three guys on him and he ran the 55 yard button hook, Brady had 10 seconds to throw, just hit some mosses running across the field 50 yards from the line of scrimmage. And I've never seen anything like it. But I still, Rice is the guy that I don't understand why he hasn't carried over from a legacy standpoint like he should have. Because that was one of those where we left the Jerry Rice experience.

Like, Oh yeah, it's not, he was so far ahead of any other receiver. Like you go back and look at the numbers compared to the other guys and the stuff he did in big games. It was like total package. And then Sue blew out his,

uh, not Sue, uh, sat broke out, blew out his knee that time. And that face mask is never totally the same after that. But, okay.

But remember too. And, and I, I'm not arguing Moss over Jerry, but you know, um, Moss isn't Dominique Wilkins. Cause that's, that's a, that'd be a knocking of Moss, but the Dominique Wilkins stuff that you see now you go, okay, this holds up. Moss's peak stuff holds up in a way that peak Jerry Rice isn't as appreciated enough. Like, hey, perfect route running, break, out of the break every time, setting you up, bringing his hands up late so that you can't adjust to his hands as you try to battle him for a ball in the air. Every single part of it where Moss is like, yeah, I go about 50% and his highlights are just better but to think in this passing happy generation

and that jerry rice left 16 years ago yeah he still has like 150 more catches than anybody else um touchdowns like it's just no one's catching him he's at 208 receiving touchdowns from 85 to 04 and excuse me uh total touchdowns total touchdowns he's at 208 uh randy during an era when seven right when they weren't throwing the football all over the place it'd be like 300 now he reminds me rice's numbers are a lot like when you look at gretzky's numbers you're like gretzky had 50 goals and 39 games and you know gretzky had 220 points or whatever he had. And it's just as crazy at your run. All right. We, uh, we went on a huge tangent. Let's take a break. Hey, your life today likely looks different than it did last week. New

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quickly. A couple of new podcasts to wire way down in the hole with Vanden Lathan and Jamel Hill. Subscribe now. Episodes three and four are coming this week, as well as Flying Coach with Pete Carroll and Steve Kerr. Check out both of those. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Back to this one. All right. So this is volume two, the rewatch of Bulls. In the first one, we did Lakers-Bulls game three, 1991 finals, which I feel like was Michael Jordan's most important game of the first eight years of his career. This one is cool.

And we talked, we did a few weeks ago, we broke down Suns-Sonics game five, 93, which was, this is just one of my favorite playoffs ever. uh, Sonic, Sonic, five 93, which, um, was this, this is just one of my favorite playoffs ever. This little stretch here where you have game four, this incredible Jordan game.

You also have the, the sun's battling where they, the Spurs or the, it was the Sonics this round. Yeah. Sun Sonics. That's game five that we did. And then the Charles Smith game to end it.

Unbelievable stretch of hoops. The background of this is Jordan is starting to break a little bit from all the gambling stuff. He goes to Atlantic City when they have a Knicks game, but game one or game two, one of those. And people find out

he was in Atlantic City and people are asking is that why blah blah blah? Is that why you lost the second game? Well well because they lost the first two games right of the series but I think between game one and game two he goes gambling then game three sucks he's three for 18 but somehow almost has a triple-double goes to the line 17 times

and they win pretty convincingly game four is on a Sunday and you know that it Jordan's not talking to the press anymore I want to talk about this Knicks team first, because I really enjoyed watching it again. I mean, the type of team that just nobody would ever put together anymore.

They're playing Oakley Mason and Ewing together. Charles Smith in the rotation. Yeah. Charles Smith is out there. They have huge. Did he get bigger watching it on YouTube? No, I swear to God,

six 11 enormous going back and watching these games. I'm like, man, I, I don't spend a ton of time walking around wondering how big Charles Smith was 25 years ago, but it just was one of the first things that jumped out. Well, he was like a top three lottery pick. He was talented. Yeah. Um, they really only had two guards. Relaina Blackman was hurt. I think somebody else got hurt. Greg Anthony was the backup. He was barely playable. And the Bulls start doing something in game three, which is just bonkers to watch. They're trapping full court with Jordan and Pippen,

two of the most frightening people ever. And they're trapping Starks and Doc Rivers, who's hurt. He's playing anyway. And they're just basically trying to get steals, cut off the court, force Ewing and Oakley and Mason and Charles Smith and these guys to actually have to handle the ball in the open court. And it just gives this game this kind of chaotic vibe.

But the Knicks are kind of hanging, and then Jordan just gets hot. But where'd you stand on Starks? I feel like he's an underappreciated 90s guy. Yeah, this whole roster is really, really cool. And I went through like every single transaction on it, right? So you go, well, how the hell they put this team together? Anthony Mason was like a street free agent

who was actually from Queens and they bring him in and they're like, hey, he's a pretty good passer for a big guy. Greg Anthony was the 12th pick two years prior to this. So he playing he was bad in this game he just straight up was bad i thought he was a bad pro is is where i stand on greg anthony well he wasn't as bad i think his career was better than like if you go and just watch this game and you've never seen a greg anthony game you're gonna think he's true he was just bad in this game he was young um and doc rivers had a bad game here but he was part of this this three team deal where just the year before they brought in doc they brought in charles smith they sent out mark

jackson they sent out a couple picks the knicks got a pick back to um oakley was the cartwright trade where they both switched first rounders in this whole deal so here you have like in a very short span of a couple years leading up to this 93 team like this team is reinventing itself with these big tough guys um and it just felt like nick's basketball like every time like doc rivers to me even though he was in atlanta and more whatever like even though he's from chicago like he feels to me like a new york city guy who's tough mason oakley the same deal i mean ewing was a physical player even though you could start to see some of the athleticism stuff declining here with him and frustrating possessions but then you get to starks who was a street free agent, who was at the CBA, the WBL. And then three years later, he's guarding Michael Jordan, the Eastern Conference Finals. And he's

kind of going toe to toe with them in a way that, you know, you're like, that's right. And yes, Starks would have games where it would just fall apart. And he was an extremely fragile. He was like a non-volatile Draymond. He was a non-confrontational Draymond Green where Starks would be confrontational, but it was more about him beating himself up. And he had pockets in this game. There's like a four-possession stretch where he throws it out of bounds.

Oakley throws it out of bounds to him. Doc thinks he's supposed to make a cut. They have like four or five plays in a very short amount of time. We were like, like all right the knicks are like going down their leg here again because it's them going up against mj i will talk about their fatal flaw later on but this wait hold on hold on on starks um he would self-destruct at bad times i remember he head butted reggie miller that time even in this game they he gets a charge and he throws this tantrum i thought he was getting kicked out.

The rap on him was like, you can get in his head. And I think he said, you know, he just started talking to himself all the time. Yeah. And, and it was a guy that if you're a Knicks fan, you loved having them on your team, but you knew you couldn't win a title if he was your second best guy, which was the situation they were in in 94, where they're up three points. Right.

He had 13 points. Are you talking to 94? Go ahead. Well, I'm going, I'm going a year ahead. Just like they're up three, two. They just need to win one game in Houston and they needed anybody to come through. That wasn't Ewing. And it just, he couldn't do it. And Rolando Blackman, ironically was supposed to be the guy in the stretch.

Cause that was a big trade for him. And he was just too old. I think he, they were hoping he had what $2 left in the gas tank. And it was just empty when he got there. And that was it. They only played seven guys. The bulls really only played seven guys,

eight. If you count Stacy King, it is funny to see how good Stacy King still thinks he is in certain moments where you're like, Oh, and he's just like, he's just out of shape. And you know,

that was kind of the thing with Stacy King is it, it just didn't really happen for him as a higher pick. Not like he was number one overall pick, but Starks is, I guess I shouldn't say non-confrontational, but I feel like he spent more time fighting with himself mentally than he would. Yeah. He would go with other guys every now and then, but you could see him kind of melt. And he was a player who you want to respect the hell out of because of where he came from, all the stuff he went through to then be like, dude, you're going at Michael Jordan here and you respect the hell out of it. But if he had zero points or 25 in a second half of a playoff game,

neither outcome would surprise me. And I think there's something to be said of the fatal flaw for this next team is they wouldn't double. I was texting with somebody that was in this game last night and I go, what was going on here defensively? And it's like, Knicks wouldn't double. They don't double until like two and a half minutes left on Jordan as Jordan's absolutely torching them.

And Jordan's hitting some stupid flat-footed threes that don't even make any sense that you would take, but it's Jordan. And I think the LeBron, if you want to do the screen grab bullshit, you go, wait, Jordan puts a 54, but Starks is chasing him around the whole time without really any doubling like what the hell is that and then they finally put Doc on him and then I went and watched game five and there's more Doc on him with that that's a major problem because this backcourt you have all these bigs and the Knicks are still in this game okay and we can throw in game five whenever you want but you keep thinking the Bulls are killing them and and they aren't and then

you're like wait a minute they still have a chance for this thing and yet they don't have the back court depth and they really don't have a mobile wing to chase Jordan around in this game you're right Starks is on him so much and then know, Charles Smith ends up with them at times. And you just go, you know, look, Starks is a great story, but he's not going to be one of my picks to get up and contest Jordan shots in a playoff game. I got to say, I was impressed by Jordan made some really, really crazy shots in this game. I thought, I thought Starks was in the right spots almost all the time. There's a couple of moments

in the second half when Jordan really got going when they would spread the floor for him. And it starts to look like what basketball looks like now. And if we're talking about, oh, what would it be like to watch Michael Jordan in 2020?

Look at any position when they just keep him 35 feet from the basket at the top and they put two and two on each side, try to give him as much space as possible. Well, guess what happens? He goes to the rim every single time, or he gets a wide open uncontested like 12 footer because you couldn't guard them. You couldn't stay in front of them. Uh, but I, I thought this next team, I it's a really impressive game. Jordan's having one of the five best scoring playoff games that he probably had in his career.

And they're like within three with three minutes left. I don't even know who was playing well for them. I, Stark's Stark's made some shots, but I didn't feel like the Knicks were like playing particularly great. They were turning the ball over a lot. I didn't think Ewing was that great in this game, but they were so big and so physical and they just kind of hung around, hung around and knew what to do. And very good defensively. The trap thing that you bring up

in the adjustment in this series and then what they do, I don't know. Could a coach today ask his superstars to go out and trap? Because that's the difference in what we were talking about. Can you imagine LeBron doing that in the year 2000 season? Because the Jordans, this is...

I guess it would have been like LeBron in the... Ninth season, so 2012. Right, 2013 heat. I don't know. Wouldiley be able to say hey lebron wade like let's get out there and trap or would those guys be like no i don't want to do that because it's crazy to see how good they are at it and actually new york did a good job you know here's new york pace wise where chicago is like the slowest pace team i think that year anyway but you think of the knicks slow it down these low scoring they were trying to beat the Here's New York pace-wise, where Chicago is the slowest-paced team, I think, that year anyway. But you think of the Knicks, slow it down, these low scoring.

They were trying to beat the trap in transition, and they were actually doing a good job with it. But the entire time, it was like this high-wire act where you go, oh, my God, they're going to screw it up. They're going to turn it over again. And just to have Pippen and Jordan out there running traps at you, and it wasn't always just full court. But there were times where the inbound was in question, like the inbound after a make

and Chicago's defending it. Like it's the last second possession and it's the second quarter. The intensity in this game is so awesome to watch and the building and everything. Go ahead. Well, I was going to say the press looks like Jordan and Pippen a couple of times. It looks like a high school team where they just tell the two senior captains to go get a couple of steals and they're like, okay, cool. We got a coach. And they're just like, and these are like John Starks and Doc Rivers who were, I think both of those guys made all-star teams and they're almost incompetent trying to get the

ball up. Doc Rivers, like, can't wait to get rid of it. Now he is hurt. I go, I want to keep mentioning that because I think he had like three different injuries, but, uh, but you see the effects for on Jordan, the fourth quarter, he he's like dead. And at the end of the third quarter, he has this whole scoring run. He makes his first seven and, and then they show him and he's doing the hands on his knee things. And the announcers are like, Jordan's wiped out. He's really tired. They got to get a breather for him and it's like yeah i would hope so he's

he has 45 points and then was pressing defense i would hope he's tired it's unbelievable the the pressing thing like you have to like if you're listening to this you're like i don't have time you have time right now go watch an n NBA team with the best player in the world running these traps and denying the inbound pass in the second quarter. That's the kind of thing I was talking about. Do you want to win, or do you want everyone on Instagram to think you want to win? I don't know if that's a generational thing. I don't know what that deal is, but if Jordan could go out there

and chase the inbound all night long, you can. And the funny thing is because Jordan is hitting some threes. He hits a three that gets him to 80-68 and you're like, all right, this game's going to be over and it wasn't.

Like you said, New York's still hanging around and it didn't really ever make any sense. He hit this one completely flat-footed and then the next play, Starks throws it out of bounds. The first three that Jordan hits in the fourth quarter, he actually sets a back screen on Ewing.

Like here he is like charging into Ewing's back, trying to get somebody else free. There's zero ball movement because MJ has been so amazing that everybody kind of else like shuts down a little. Well, go backwards to,

go backwards to the start of the game. They do this whole thing about how hurt is he? What's wrong with his wrist? He was three for 18. Is it going to be okay? And then he comes out, he misses his first two shots. And then Michael's still feeling the effects. And then he goes, he drops 27 in the first half. It's like, no, his wrist is fine. Okay. I've noticed this now in three Marv games in the last week. If Marv were around today.

We're criticizing early that is Marv. Like he's here. I love this. Well, I haven't even got to the wig yet. If there's one, like, I just try to think of, we should do like in another month, self-scouting reports. Cause I did it about me as a roommate. I just want a full-blown strength and weaknesses

of each other. And we can even add in a few of, you know, observations we have about each other. I think we're close enough now. And I'm awful at noticing wigs. I've just been, it's historically something that's a real, real blind spot for me. I'm bad at recognizing other men's wigs. I'm the opposite. It's one of my like five best talents. Well, that's great. I'm so good at it. Two-p and wigs i know i know every time so coming out on the two shot he and fratello the czar and marv has this like full body possum going on where it's like marv showed up to this shop and goes i want something but i want a little more body i want a little more volume this time around so what can

you do because this is you know this is the conference finals. I don't want a finals wig. Okay. I don't want to get married, but I want to flirt a bit and I just need something with the little, I want to go sideways, couple side doors, suicide doors, Dorothy Hamlisch. Yeah. Right. Right. Whatever, you know, just some America's sweetheart over here. What do you have for me? All right. so back to marv joe buck catches waste way too much shit i also think side note i think joe buck's done sort of a national pivot now where everybody's just collectively all yeah yeah everybody's in and it's like all right but it was after years of everybody thinking that joe buck hated their team which is stupid if you're a bulls fan do you notice and i'm not i don don't care. I wasn't rooting for either of these teams.

Do you notice he's constantly kind of bringing up the Jordan struggling thing all the time? And you had to have thought, especially if you're from Chicago, you must have hated Marv on these games. You're like, oh, New York guy, the Knicks guy. Marv doesn't let it go. Like if MJ misses a couple, you're like, oh, tiring. Oh, the shot has not been as good.

Oh, you know, the second second half look at the numbers are he's he's tired and the numbers show that he was scoring like nine and nine points in the first or excuse me nine points in the second half 15 in the first half it just always seemed to be that marv would find a way to be negative about jordan 91 i understood it 93 i don't well they have that graphic in the fourth quarter it says points by, and it's like nine first quarter, 18 second quarter, 18 third quarter, five fourth quarter. And he's like, Czar, Michael Jordan's slowing down in the fourth quarter. It's like, well, he has 50.

I think he's doing okay. In the third quarter, he makes his first seven shots, and this is coming out of the first half where he had 27. And like all of them are contested, basically. I don't feel like they were easy. There's no like fast break. I got to steal. Here's my easy fast break layup.

It's like somebody's hand is near him at all times. Third quarter, he goes to a whole other level. And they're not even in rhythm, Bill. That's the thing. Like to stand, to catch, the possession's's over and everybody's looking at you being like all right we'll just go ahead and take the shot and you're flat-footed no dribble pull up three and it looks like it's a good like that's a bad shot and uh he was just i mean in this game he he knocks all of those down every one of those shots you're like oh that's not going to go in. Yeah, it is. Did you notice Dick Bovetta reffing?

Okay. I did. Did you notice, is it Jack Neese? Yeah. Official number 35? The calls get super shaky. In the second half, it becomes pretty clear Stern sent a pretty brisk instructions like,

this is going back to New York 2-2. It becomes one of those. There's some second half calls where you're like, oh, okay. I'm not conspiracy Bill, but it was really tight very early. They got two on Charles Smith for nothing. And then Doc got one grabbing. Did you see how many fouls the Knicks had in this game? It's got to be over 30, right?

31. Yeah. Starks ends up with three, but Ewing had five. Oakley had five. Doc Rivers had five. Anthonyarks has five. Starks ends up with three, but Ewing had five. Oakley had five. Doc Rivers had five. Anthony Mason had five. So there was a couple things tight where you go, okay, what is this? Like a little tone setting here?

What are we doing? And there was a couple calls late that I was like, this doesn't make any sense. But there's a call. I think it's in the second quarter, but I have everything else right. Where Oakley,ago did a really good job with their bigs where they were they were trying to front every post as much as they possibly could and it led to a lot of contested entry passes and you know some good stuff there um guys working hard like nobody wants to front all night long because it sucks it's hard and

those guys work i mean phil got these guys to work their asses off man that can't be emphasized enough and oakley loses the ball it's off of him and oakley goes to jack nice who's at the baseline official and jack's trying to inbound and getting ready chicago getting their possession and oakley's not going to let it go and nice yells at charles oakley because you can hear it on the youtube broadcast he goes you get out of my face to oakley wow oakley still won't let it go. And then he teased him up after he yelled at Oakley, you get out of my face.

Now look, Oakley was letting him have it a little bit. I still can't tell you how much I enjoy the quick confrontations with the ref and then everybody gets back to playing. But I can't imagine

the social pieces today if a ref told a player, you get out of my face well speaking of the the replay thing grant and starks get into it in the fourth quarter and grant hip checks him starks comes running in and it looks like they're gonna fight hockey hockey hipped him earlier right so and they have to be broken up and this was at a moment of the game where the game has a really nice flow. Jordan's playing well. If that happens now, the game stopped for 10 minutes and it's like, oh, all right. Secaucus. Hey, we have, oh, we have another shot of the hip check.

Oh, what do you, what do you think? Double fouls. And it would just go on and on and on. And we'd lose all the momentum of the game. Watching these old games and the pace they have make me hate instant replay more and more by the day. Watching the old games on ESPN Classic and Hardwood Classics on NBA TV, the pace is just better. It just is. We don't need all this shit.

There's moments in this game where it's like, oh, was that out of bounds on somebody? It's like the refs like, ah, bull's ball. It's like, it's fine. We survived. We'll get the next one. Yeah, it's fine. Look, if people, if we were watching all these replays and ruining all momentum and excitement, that's the other thing too, right from the jump, 17,000 Chicago stadium, this place is

going off and it's a sustained level of excitement where you're immediately in it going, all right, this matters. And I don't know that we have that sustained kind of atmosphere going on. I mean, some buildings, yeah. I mean, Golden State was rolling in Toronto's atmosphere. That was sick too. And there are definitely other places, but that kind of stood out a little bit, but you're right. Like if, if we were sitting here watching all these horrible replays and every stupid elbow and the sensitivity to any kind of hit that it's like, we've got to stop everything in the counters. Like, well, it's a player safety and be like, okay, cool. You're actually ruining your product by doing this. And we don't need to replay all of this stuff. We don't, cause you know

what? You're actually not getting it right. You're not getting it right enough to the level to actually justify how much you're screwing up the enjoyment of an entertainment product. And I hate, I hate it now. I hate it as much as you do. The other thing you mentioned when the fan experience, one of the great things about watching this game is it's the Chicago stadium. The crowd is just totally attuned to Michael and the crowd. And it's just, it's a thing at this point. And it happened with bird and the Celtics and the, and the garden, the same thing. And it definitely happened with magic and the Lakers. And there was something about a great guy who belonged to their franchise. I think Kobe had it to some degree in LA at the Staples center probably didn't have the same atmosphere, but, um, the guy who belongs to the city and the team and the arena. And it's weird because

you think like the warriors, you would have think they would have had it in the same way, but I always felt like the warriors, there was, especially in those home games, it didn't have the energy of a game like this. It was either they're up by 20 or the crowd was tight. It wasn't, it wasn't this kind of euphoria that you could feel for the Bulls fans. They're like, oh my God, our guy's going off. This is the fucking greatest. The games the last couple of years have like a tension and it would get quiet

and it didn't have the crowd noise kind of din that this game, like what you were saying, there was a din for two hours and it didn't go away the whole game. You can hear it the whole time. And I don't know whether it's an economic thing. Maybe the, maybe those fans got priced out to some degree, or I'm sure there's nine different variables we come up with, but it's really special. It's special to watch. I do think the Warriors, there's a fatigue of when you're just that good maybe more so now when you're that good and it's your fifth version of it where it feels a little flatter because then

it's it's not the enjoyment of the pursuit it's the anxiety of of hoping to not be disappointed yeah hoping you'll get bad yeah that's what i think would have because there's there's times i feel like you know watching some of those golden State games where it felt like as great a crowd as there was. And I was there for two finals games this year and it was terrific, except they lost both. So I wasn't, I'm the only guy I think that's probably ever gone to two Warriors games and never seen them win

in the last five years of this group. Wait, back to that 93 Bulls thing for a second. So they're trying to get their third straight. It's, it's a team that's in a little bit of transition. Like cart, right. Is hitting the tail end here. Um, as a very useful starter, this is probably the last time he gets some run in 94, but he's at a different point of his career. Paxson's starting to slow down the guy that I really liked who was even better a year later was BJ Armstrong because,

uh, he, he just gave them a different dimension. He was, he could give them the Paxson stuff, but could also like create his own shot. And he was a little feistier defensively. And,

uh, and he really lost him the next year. You think you might have the worst fit of anyone that's worn an NBA jersey? Because it was enormous. It made him look like a skinny, fat kid. And then on top of it, the Armstrong thing was bigger than the St. Louis Arch. Well, so Cartwright goes 0 for 4 in this game. Paxton goes 0 for 2.

And they got Trent Tucker's off the bench. He's playing. Then you go to the Game 5, which is one of the all timers. We didn't really need to break that down. Cause everybody knows the Charles Smith game, but even in that game, like, well, so cart rates five for six in that game, um, their bench basically goes two for 11. That team was really Jordan, Pip and gray. And I think Armstrong was the fourth best guy in the team and was a guy that I was really Jordan, Pip and Gray. And I think Armstrong was the fourth best guy in the

team and was a guy that I was, was fascinated by in the Jordan history. And he comes up later in the documentary, this guy who was really cerebral and fascinated by Jordan and knew understood pretty early. He was never going to be around another human being like this. And there's a whole stuff about how he would read up on books about genius, try to like unlock, unlock Jordan and figure out his, uh, his psyche and all that stuff. But I was always, I was always intrigued by his relationship to these teams. Cause you know, you always think of like packs and then Steve Kerr, but BJ was the most important guard they had in 93. He gets lost to history and Horace grants the other one. Horace is great in this game. Uh, Horace was the Rodman for the

first three titles and kind of gets shoved to the side. Now, now it's like Jordan Pippen and then Jordan Pippen Rodman and Horace gets a little shoved aside and even gets shoved aside in this documentary. I like Horace more now watching three of these games in a week than I did in the moment. Again, I'm just older, more experienced at watching basketball, but there's so many plays

in between. Keeping the rebound alive, getting an offensive rebound, immediately getting it back out to somebody on the perimeter so they can attack before the defense is set up. He can run all day, okay?

He can run all day with you. And Horace ages better than maybe we even appreciate it I mean other than Bulls fans look he was your guy was funny as part of those first three but he was a really important player for this team because he accepted all of this stuff where even the rebounding numbers because I'm like man this guy's awesome and then I'm like wait a minute the rebounding numbers for this series he wasn't that great but he's just he's a perfect complement to these incredible wing players they have and bj in game five he hits the three that puts him up in the corner where jordan drives from the top left and they send a double and it's reminiscent of you know some of the bullshit that lebron dealt with in the beginning of his career throwing it out to Donyell Marshall. And it's like, you know, great players actually do pass the ball

and make great reads. And Jordan did it a million times too. And he throws it to B.J. Armstrong in game five, and B.J. hits that three in the corner. He misses one a little bit later. And that's the biggest shot of the game. And so for B.J. to be a guy that was drafted, I think, in the late teens and step in and be able to contribute to this kind of team

with that kind of pressure on you pretty shortly after getting drafted is, I don't know. There's a lot of watching this offense going, okay, when Jordan sits and it's awful. This is a bad pipping game. Game four is not a very good pipping game. He just sort of floats. But you brought up something, though, that I want to stay on.

Whenever the Knicks were stuck offensively, and I'm telling you, if you watch this again, you're going to keep thinking they're down much more than they are. And they aren't. They get down like 12 at one point, and you're like, all right, this thing's over. And they fight back. They get it to like four or five.

What was their thing that you were like, oh, if they run this, we're in trouble. Cause I don't think there is anything. I don't, I don't think they had it. I don't, I think that's why they never won a title and why they couldn't get over the hump of the bulls. They would dump it to Ewing. They, what they really needed was it's funny. The thing that made the team so special and memorable was their ability to just play like two power forwards with Ewing at the same time and this weird super physical you weren't basically the bad

boy Pistons on HGH and it was great and it got them really far and got them to the precipice but ultimately not having like that kind of flexible the ability to play the small ball team the ability to have that one awesome wing that you could just throw on Jordan.

They just didn't have it. Yeah. They looked. They looked and they looked and they looked and never found it. And none of us should ever make the mistake of like, oh, if they had had this like wing, you know, we all want these wings that can do a bunch of different things. But Jordan's still going to get 40 if he wants to get 40.

But whenever I would watch him, it'd be like, okay, what are they going to run? And they ran pin downs with their big guys that would try to, they'd have the two to two bigs, whoever they wanted to do it with, with Ewing.

And then one of the other two power forwards, because it really was true. Like it wasn't like they had a power forward that was a little bit smaller and stretch the floor. And that's maybe why they did the Larry Johnson deal later on. But I mean, Mason was an enormous real four and then there's Oakley and then Charles Smith is bigger than those guys. And they win what? 62 games that year. They're the one seed. They

have home court in this series. They win the first two games and you're watching game four and parts of game five. It's like, okay, your bigs go down to the block. They screen, you send your guards out on a catch. And if they're not open, then you reset and you get it to Ewing, where Ewing has to make these ridiculous turnarounds. Or he started doing that thing where Ewing was good enough still at his size to hard dribble into the paint. But then he'd always have to just kick it out to somebody. And that's the one thing where Cartwright's minutes,

because every offensive touch you see, you're like, what's the point? But Cartwright did a really good job with Ewing, keeping them parallel to the hoop and not letting him get deeper there. You know, like he would just ride him straight across and then Ewing would just sort of kick out and you're going, this team won 62 games would probably beat anybody else if it's not for MJ. And I don't really know if there's one offensive set from them other than Starks bailing them out or Ewing hitting a 15 foot baseline turnaround, which is a lock, you know,

that's the thing when, when people do the Jordan won six titles, but he never went against a great center and he lost a shack that year and he came back from baseball. That's not fair. It's not fair. Um, but never went against the Hakeem rockets,

which, you know, by fluke, it just didn't happen. But to me, this series solves that argument for me because this was a team that had an elite center who was a 25-pointer game. You could go to him.

You could dump the ball. And he was more likely not going to get it, too. Yeah, I think he was fourth in MVP voting this year. And, you know, it's the prototypical bigger team that you would have thought they would have a lot of trouble with. Then you would see it again with the 98 Pacers was the other team like that. Where it was just like, man, this team is big.

Smiths is a problem. They got the Davises. I love the Davises. But what made both of those, what made the 98 Bulls special and then this 90, this early nineties thing, they were so athletic.

They could flip it with their athleticism, you know? And it was like, Oh, you're going to play these big guys. We're just going to press you. And we're able to do this because we have Pippen and Jordan who I say, if we did a draft right now of what five guys would you want to try to

press the 93 Knicks with, you would say Pippen, Jordan. I think Kawhi is in that conversation, right? Yeah, Kawhi. Yeah, Kawhi. Bruce Bowen. No, I really think it's just Kawhi. I think Jordan, Pippen, and Kawhi are the three.

If you're just saying, I could have two guys. Bruce Bowen. If I could have two guys ever to just try to press the 93 Knicks, maybe LeBron if it was like 2012 Miami LeBron when he was like peak athletic skill. I don't know. But they were always able to flip it. The center thing didn't matter against them.

They were always able to kind of adjust. The only time it really came back to haunt them was 95, and that was because they didn't have Horace Grant. They didn't have Rodman. So this Knicks team, though, the year before, they had McDaniel, and they had Gerald Wilkins. And Gerald Wilkins sucked in 92. Yeah, he wasn't good in the 92 series,

so they moved on from him. And McDaniel was a lot of the same problem they had with Mason and Smith. They were never able to find that wing that whoever it was, even like a Kevin Gamble type, just anybody who like a six, six guy, Chris Morris, make an outside shot. Yeah. Anyone, they just couldn't find them. And, uh, it was one of the reasons they lost. What, what was your take watching Ewing here? 93 version. I went back and looked at those numbers and that's where

I found the MVP voting. I mean, it was just solid across the board, 25, 12. He can make some passes. But to me, this is the start of seeing him becoming, and it's weird too, because we're so used to watching these bigs now run around like crazy. So I'm not trying to do the unfair 2020 athletic expectation of a center that now look at it in 1993. But he's slowing down. He's slowing down. Now, what they're great on is on drives. Their second defender is there a lot to cut off any kind of drive.

But it's also because of the evolution of the game. They didn't have to worry about coming off a shooter. So all these bigs, what they did do well, a lot defensively, is they're always seeming to be like two guys challenging at the rim there. And, um, there just wasn't a lot of room because the guys are enormous,

but I was not, I did not leave the game for, and certainly not game five when they missed 15 free throws and Ewing misses a huge one. Charles Smith misses a huge one. And then the, the Charles Smith stuff at the end, I was,

I'm not an anti Ewing guy, but I went like, Hey, this is the kind of game where you're not David Robinson and you're certainly not a keen. Yeah. That was the issue. He was always the third best center of whatever year there was. You could always find two or three guys who were just better than he was. But if he comes along 10 years later and he's in the 2000s, when all of a sudden it's like Dwight Howard, Amar Stoudemire playing out of position,

like he would have been, it would have been so much easier, I think, for him. He just came in during a loaded time. Yeah, but he was the guy, like he was so athletic at Georgetown. No, I know, but he was there for four years. Nowadays, he comes out after a year, right? And those last three Georgetown years are his first three Knicks years.

Is John Thompson still coaching? John would be like, you're not ready. Everybody else gets to leave, coach. You're not ready. Yeah, you're not ready. Please stay. Stay a fifth year. One more. I've worked you into our Georgetown graduate program. Yeah, so you have the Knicks go. Riley shows up you into our Georgetown graduate program. Yeah. So you have the Knicks go, they go, Riley shows up, they went 51 and 92. They go seven against the Bulls. I never felt like the Bulls were going to lose that series.

This series, especially when they went to nothing and you knew that they had game seven in MSG, MSG still had a ton of mystique at that point. And Jordan, it just felt like it was so hard to do a three-peat. We hadn't seen it. When was the last time we had a three-peat before this? It was Russell. It had to have been the Celtics, right?

It was Russell, right? The mid-60s Celtics. Because what? The Lakers have 87-88 and then lost in 89. So they had 85-87-88. Russell. Yeah, Russell.

And it just, at some point there in 93, it felt like this is the Knicks year. It's all coming up next. You know what I forgot? As I wanted the Knicks to win this, now that I think about it, when I said I didn't want to be rooting for either one of these teams,

I wanted the Knicks to win so Barkley had a better chance against them. Although I don't know if Barkley would have had a better chance against that front line. He would have just pulled it out and probably attack, but you know, you're just always afraid of MJ.

So I don't know if, I don't know if Phoenix would have beaten the Knicks. I don't know. I feel like the sons were the third best team that year. I think the Knicks behind New York. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not going to tell you wrong.

Yeah. Uh, all right. That was it for the rewatch of bowls. I have two more things okay very quick watching how hard these guys ran into each other off of screens was oh my god okay it just needs like it seemed like a fight ready to happen 200 times now i used to do this thing here we go softball stat guy but in any pickup game i ever was in once i started putting a little size on because i was scrawny for a good chunk of my life if you went

to set a screen on me i would i would put my shoulder right in your fucking chest plate as hard as i could and it's really stupid of me and it's not cool me to do it but i would do it to be like all right the next time that guy's gonna think twice about setting a screen and these guys were killing each other off the screens now i like, all right, the next time that guy's going to think twice about setting a screen. And these guys were killing each other off the screens. Now, I still think all of this, the defense is so physical and all this stuff. Guys aren't getting hand-checked the way they talk about it. People aren't getting decapitated.

You know, I'm a broken record. I'm annoying about it, but I'm trying to change the world here one podcast at a time. But the physical stuff going away from the ball on the screens, how hard they hit each other it's you're right it looked like it was a fight gonna happen every time but they all accepted it like you could screen the shit out of jordan and jordan was like all right like i'll get you on the next one there wasn't this let's stop and talk about it for five minutes stuff it just was accepted well you notice

marv marv had the thing where he's like it's starting to get a little chippy a little chippy yeah you think so somebody just went flying into the second row of the screen you're right it's getting a little chippy but yeah they're very rarely deteriorated into like a fight because it was just the way they played yeah and this and it's this series specifically because if you go back and watch the lakers 91 book that's not what was going on this is a dick harter he's the defensive coach for the knicks his philosophy was always they can't call them all okay that's what he did he was with jim o'brien with the celtics his whole thing was they can't call them all they just can't so just hack the shit out of

people all right the last thing is the tv promo coming up tonight after the game oh fresh the fresh prince blossom and the nbc original movie don't touch my daughter star starring paul servino i always saw don't Touch My Daughter 2 I didn't see the first one I heard you don't need to see the first one The first one sets up the sequel Which is really great

Yeah I love that I gotta say I watched the entire halftime show too You're a maniac Oh my god I love Quinn Buckner, Bill Walton, Peter Vesey And Bob Costas And not even behind a desk. They're all facing each other.

They're in this weird living room. So Vesey's talking. You could see Costas' entire back and the back of his head. It's like, who thought this was a good idea? Do you think Vesey just came along like 20 years too soon? Because I could have seen Vesey going head-to-head with Skip and Stephen A. Prime Vesey? Vesey was influential.

He had some of the best one-liners. He was the one who had the one-liner about when James Worthy got arrested with the two prostitutes. And he had a one-liner. It was like, James always has enjoyed working against the double team or something. Put that in the New York Post. Oh, the something. You put that in the New York Post. Oh, the stuff he used to write in the New York Post is a whole other level.

But I'm thinking like a guy that's informed, but then his deal was like he would go on those NBC halftime shows and he would just tear people down sometimes. Yeah. Like he was vicious. And it was kind of like what people want on TV from opinion people, but he was also on the NBA beat. And I just feel like if Peter Vesey, the 1990s Vesey that we grew up with was available as a free agent for a

debate show. Now he'd be, he'd be looking at beach houses. Oh, he would be feuding with Woj. I'll tell you that much. He would, he would not like the,

he would not like the whole Woj bomb thing. He would be going head to head with Woj. Yeah. But if it's Woj, I'll tell you that much. He would not like the whole Woj bomb thing. He would be going head-to-head with Woj. Yeah, but if it's Woj, I mean, what's he going to do? Beat Woj? Nobody beats Woj. No, I think they would fight to the death. Maybe Vesey just disappears one day. He's never seen again.

If it's Woj, his punches would be coming like 30 seconds after Woj's. The other one was they had Ahmad Rashad and Hannah Storm as the sideline reporters. I like that. Two sideline reporters for a basketball game. Okay. The Ahmad stuff, somebody should do like a full-blown hour-long just rip of all the Ahmad cuts because it's kind of like Ahmad the whole time there's never been a more confident sideline

reporter who's kind of like hey I got some tidbits but I think you're just here to see me well he was his one of his best friends was the best part of the game right so it's like let's go to Ahmad he was with Michael Jordan an hour ago and look he's smooth as hell don't get me wrong he's smooth as hell but it was always kind of like Ahmad would be like do you want me to give you this injury update

or you guys just want to hang out a bit alright that was it for the rewatchables so next week we're going to do a 93 finals game All right. That was it for the rewatchables. So next week, we're going to do a 93 finals game. We'll figure out which one. Your guy, Barkley. Let's do the triple overtime.

We can either. Oh, the Suns win that one. Yeah, let's do that one. I got to research. We might have to turn it up to a Twitter poll again. Will I get to pick one? All right. You can pick it. You want to do that triple overtime? I might want to save it. I might have to turn it up to a Twitter poll again. Will I get to pick one? All right. You can pick it.

You want to do that? Triple overtime. I might want to save it. I might want to save it. Cause we got to do, we have to do the Utah game in 97. We're doing, we have to do the Phoenix and then we're going to do, we have to do the flu game and we have to do the last game.

So if we do Phoenix next week, I thought, I thought we should do one of the Orlando Chicago 95 games because those games are fascinating to watch. I like what you're doing here though, is you're doing, I really thought the 91 call was like a real vintage wine that you knew about. And your friends after the dinner party were like, you know, Bill, I wouldn't have gone with a New Zealand Malbec, but was delicious It paired perfectly with a venison You know what this is your pod

I actually think I like presenting Things and having you go oh it's a good idea And then no we'll just do this one instead though No I'll let you pick We're doing 93 finals I want to dive into that finals So we've done 90 We skipped. We're doing 93 finals. Cause we, we, I want to dive into that finals. So we've done 90. All right.

We skipped 92. We're just skipping Portland. Yeah. We're skipping Portland. Everyone knows that the problem with Portland is there's no signature MJ game. Cause I went through it. Cause I, I want to know you did.

Yeah. I want to do game six Cleveland. Cause I, I really love that Cleveland team. I was excited to talk about it, but the game wasn't that good. And then the Portland one, everyone knows about the six threes in the first half. I was excited to talk about it, but the game wasn't that good. And then the Portland one, everyone knows about the six threes in the first half.

And there's that, the other most interesting game is that weird game six when the bench kind of wins the title. You know what? Actually, this is, you know what? I've only been here like a year and a half. I'm not going to put my feet up on the table. You lead the way on this

because you're not just picking, hey, he had a million points in this game. You're picking the lead-up storylines. And it's been fun to go back and read some of the beat stuff about these games going into it. Yeah, I wanted to pick the one the Suns won after they lost the first two at home.

And just an epic, ridiculous game that they won, but they lose the series. So, I don't know. I mean, that's me being a bit of a homer. So, I'm willing to... You and your love of the Suns. I just never knew. Barkley. It's Barkley. It's just Barkley So, uh, I'm willing to, you and your love of the sons. I just never knew. It's Barkley.

It's just Barkley. I know. I get it. Right. Um, all right, well, we'll do one of the 93 finals games. Maybe we'll do Twitter poll.

The rewatchables volume three coming next week. We're Sillow. You're doing, uh, pods. You have, we have the draft coming Thursday. We can,

uh, listen to the Ryan Rosillo podcast. Anything else? Yeah. We got Trent Dilfer coming draft coming Thursday. We can, uh, listen to the Ryan Rosillo podcast. Anything else? Yeah. We got Trent Dilfer coming on and we're starting up a new thing. It's going to be a two part podcast. Reach out to all my famous pro athlete friends. Uh,

they're going to tell their best recruiting stories. So we need like 12 guys, break it up into two parts, rapid fire, five to 10 minutes. Each guy telling me his favorite recruiting story and don't worry about it. SEC. We're not trying to get anybody into trouble. Awesome. All right. Thanks. All right. Thanks to Rosillo. Thanks to state farm. Thanks to Norton LifeLock, the company that's dedicated to your cyber safety. They want to do their part to help. That's why they're giving away six months

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Hope you're listening to the doctors and the scientists. Hope you're staying optimistic because why Hope you're listening to the doctors and the scientists. Hope you're staying optimistic. Because why not? We're stuck here. We're heading into week six of the quarantine. Try to stay optimistic and listen to all the experts. We're going to get through this. See you in a couple days in the BS button. I don't have

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