The Bill Simmons Podcast - Most Fun NFL Offseason Story Lines With Mina Kimes and Danny Kelly, Plus West Play-In Roulette With Michael Pina

Episode Date: March 24, 2023

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Danny Kelly and ESPN's Mina Kimes to discuss the biggest NFL offseason story lines so far, including the Panthers' no. 1 overall draft pick, Lamar Jackson's future, the Lions as the favorite in the NFC North, Sean Payton's first season as the Broncos HC, and the Aaron Rodgers saga (1:34). Then Bill talks with Michael Pina about Karl Anthony Towns's return to the Timberwolves, most fun Western Conference play-in matchups, first team All-NBA conundrums, and more (1:07:24). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Mina Kimes, Danny Kelly, and Michael Pina Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I don't have Damon and Affleck for you on this podcast, but I do have riveting conversations on the NFL and the NBA. That's next. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet at all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the Chargers are going to be good. I think Seattle's going to be good. And then trying to back what you think in those first few weeks and then zag the other way. If you were wrong, you could bet on new and fun markets on FanDuel,

like to catch your pass, same game parlays, highest scoring game across the Sunday slate, offensive TDs, the next drive. They have so much stuff, it's crazy. The app is safe and secure and easy to use. And when you win, you'll get paid instantly. Plus, look out for FanDuel Squares this season. Here's what you have to do. Visit FanDuel.com to download America's number one sportsbook. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming.

Please visit RG-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. You must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem called Win 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com.

This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this, it's game day, all the gangs here, you're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're standing at the grill and the smell of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that. Or when you want a light beer that tastes like beer, that's delicious.

You don't want to load up on those heavier beers and then you only have two of them. Then you feel tired. Your stomach feels full. Miller Lite, it's your friend. It just accompanies whatever else you're doing. You're super happy with it. Opening an ice cold Miller Lite can signal the beginning of Miller time. Miller Lite is the light beer with all the great beer tastes we like. 90 calories per 355 mil can. So why not grab some Miller Lites today? Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. If you're into March Madness, check out One Shiny Podcast with Tate Frazier. He's going to be weighing

in during the games over the next couple of days. Also, the Prestige TV Podcast, which is about to go haywire because Yellow Jackets, we are putting that one up, the reaction podcast to episode one, which is streaming, I think on Friday. That's with Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson. And then on Sunday, right after succession, the first episode of season four ends. Me and Joanna and Sean Fantasy are going to be posting our podcast about episode one, which was spectacular. So there you go. On this podcast, Mina Kimes and Danny Kelly, we're going to be talking about our favorite off-season football storylines. And it was really fun. And then I had to get a little basketball in as well.

So we brought Michael Pina in. We talked about our favorite mystery Western Conference play-in pseudo contender. Plus a little first team all NBA as well. So that is all next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, we're going to talk football. We've been talking a lot of basketball lately.

We had Damon and Affleck on Tuesday. It's time to talk some football. Danny Kelly's here from The Ringer, who has been, even though it's the offseason, working his butt off, getting ready for the draft read, see all that stuff. And then Mina Kimes from ESPN is here. Two Seattle fans.

By the way, are you feeling a little Seattle 2023 fever, Mina? With the Seahawks, with all these draft picks, rumors of the Sonics coming back. You got a guy in the Mariners throwing 100 miles an hour. That's showing up on my Twitter. What's going on? The Mariners are very hot right now. Julio Rodriguez is just on a Sports Illustrated cover. We got the All-Star game

this year. Everything's coming up Seattle. All-Star game, Danny. Yeah. And J-Rod? Hell yeah. I didn't actually know that we had the All-Star game, so that's news to me. That's awesome. That's great. Let's do this. Three more years of Geno? Shit's happening. You're stealing one of

my things here. Yeah. Oh man, the fight to draft Geno. We all had it. I don't want to ruin the concepts. I invited the two of you on. We were going to do our favorite off-season storylines. It's not really a draft, but we'll

probably just go in order and throw stuff out. And we might have some overlap and things like that. I will say this. Usually the NFL off season, it's like a B minus, maybe a B. This one has been spectacular. I've loved it. I mean, we have the Aaron Rodgers soap opera, which just never ends. We had a huge trade already with the number one pick. There's four quarterbacks that everybody's arguing about. Nobody feels great about. There's teams just going sideways and backwards and not a lot of teams going forward. We have a team that almost won the Super Bowl, lost a ton of starters. Mina, you do this, you're on NFL Live multiple days a week. Is this the

most action-packed offseason it's been? Yeah, it's been great because I don't remember this time last year how busy it was, but it can get pretty rough after the combine for the draft. You do end up doing a lot of the same segments, but it genuinely feels like there's news every day. There's signings, there's trades, there's the Rogers and Lamar stuff, which actually, you know, I'm a little bit tired of talking about that stuff, but it's definitely been more action packed.

And I think like more impactful than recent memory. What do you think, Danny? I mean, yeah, absolutely. I think, you know,

from kind of wild trades like the, you know, the Rams and the Dolphins for, for what's his face. I'm who name I'm planking on completely. Jalen Ramsey. Yes. Jalen Ramsey. Obviously that was like kind of a wild trade. Wild trades like the Rams and the Dolphins for what's-his-face. The name I'm planking on completely. Jalen Ramsey? Yes, Jalen Ramsey.

Obviously, that was kind of a wild trade. The Aaron Rodgers, the Darkness Retreat. I'm giving away some of my picks here. And then obviously, with the draft, the draft is really interesting because there's no consensus on anybody. And so it's just been a lot of fun to try to break that down too. So, yeah. I do remember now what we were talking about this time last year and it was tom brady's retirement we did like two tom brady retirement specials yeah yeah and then he unretired so they

were totally pointless and it's funny now bill that like you talked about all the crazy stuff happening the greatest quarterback in nfl history retired and i don't think any of us are going to pick that as being one of our more interesting stories. Until he comes back, which cannot be ruled out. Put that on the board. All right, Mina, you're the guest. You're playing a road game. You can have the first pick. What do you have for your single favorite off-season storyline? Now, we're defining the word favorite. It's not just like, oh, I really like that. It's just meaty. It can be something you're completely confused by.

It can be a signing that you love. It could be a team that is just a complete train wreck and you can't look away. Just something that captures your fancy, which you're number one. I'm not going to do the Homer pick. I'll leave that on the table for Danny. If he wants that, Eugene. For me, it's got to be the Bears and the Panthers trading. The Panthers

trading out for the number one overall pick. And just kind of like the conversation around that number one overall pick in general, Bill, because Lovie Smith not only did the Bears enormous favor by winning that final game in week 18, which will go down to me as one of the all-time FUs, incredible just moments in NFL history, sliding doors moments. But he did, I think, the content industry a favor as well, because now we have all of these teams that need quarterbacks picking at the top. You have the Texans now behind the bears who had the opportunity to trade with the Panthers,

Panthers took the trade. Um, and nobody knows who it's going to be. I like that is legit. Like this is not Joe Burrow. This is not Andrew Luck in 2012. Every day. It seems like we hear the Panthers being linked with a different quarterback,

except for Will Levis. I don't think I've heard Will Levis. Just wait, just wait. So that's awesome. Like for my, you know, utilitarian purposes as someone who has to talk about this every day, that's interesting. But I genuinely find it interesting because I think you can make like a credible case for all of these quarterbacks. You know, we had this happen when San Francisco traded up to number three. Yeah. And then it was, oh, well, they must be trading first. And then it became Mac versus Lance and Kyle wants Mac. Everyone else is talking him into Lance and nobody ever knows what really happened with that. But all of a sudden they

landed on Lance. Danny, I think it's so weird to trade the kind of capital that Carolina gave up to move to number one, but then not know who they were going to take. I just don't, I don't fundamentally understand it unless you're looking at it like it's the bachelor and you're, you made the final episode and you're like, I'm just in love with both of these girls. I don't even know. I won't know till I'm on the cliff what I'm doing in this case, they're like, yeah, we like these guys. We can't wait to get to scout them more and talk to them. I personally would never trade up unless I knew who I wanted. Did you understand that?

No, not at all. I'm exactly the same as you. I think it's almost just like malpractice if that's actually their strategy. I think that's what they're telling us because maybe there's a way in which they can get some leverage and maybe they could convince the Texans to trade up one spot if they can convince the Texans that they like Bryce Young or whatever. Whatever the case may be, they're leaving some

open-ended... They're not telling us exactly who they like. But I am the exact same way. I thought that when we were talking about the 49ers a couple years ago with Trey Lance and Mac Jones, I just thought, you don't make a trade of that magnitude where you're giving up multiple future first-round picks. I mean, this is a huge, huge trade.

You're leveraging the future of your franchise for years to come, and then you don't have the conviction on one specific guy that you really want, that you think can be the guy. It's like, oh yeah, we like this guy. We like this guy. You know, to me, that just makes no sense.

So I'm 100% with you on that. like this guy. We like this guy. To me, that just makes no sense. So I'm 100% with you on that. To me, that is, this is, I hope, just posturing and maybe a way that they could trade back one with the Texans and still get their guy, but I don't really know if that's what's happening here. I don't get that. It does seem like,

Mina, it seems like teams value this rookie QB on the rookie quarterback for five years thing so much that they almost lose sight of who they're actually going to take. It's just so appealing to have somebody for that cheap. It's the biggest advantage you can have. And they're like, fuck it, I'll just flip a coin. And the Panthers told us they value that contract so much more that they perceive the risk of trading those picks. And DJ Moore, who's a very good young player,

they think that that's less risky than trying to trade for Lamar Jackson, who is a known quantity. You have to almost look at those things. I'm comparing those decisions, right? Because every team had the option to at least try for him, and they aren't trying. And obviously that's a complicated story, whatever.

But the point is, it's very risky to do what Carolina did, to go up without a sure thing at number one overall. But I was smiling a little bit when Danny was talking because I'll say that and I agree with him, but I also don't know who I would take number one. I have been evading ranking the quarterbacks because much like purportedly the Carolina Panthers, like I kind of need more time.

Like I'm still watching them. I'm still thinking I lean Bryce as my number one, but you can really, I've seen smart people, people who work for you, people are in just generally rank these quarterbacks in different orders every time. And I think you can actually make an argument

for a bunch of different rankings. It's super fun. And, you know, I just fly in, in the NFL draft off the top rope, barely watching college football and knowing nothing and just meeting different people and just trying to be like, you know, the VP of common sense with it.

In this case, you know, everybody has just this deep flaw that you just know it might not work out. Bryce Young is too small. That's the reason he's not going to go number one. Now, he could have a great career and then you go, see, told you Bryce Young, but he could also get pancake by some 290 pound guy and then his career is never the same. It's like, see, told you, Bryce Young, too small. Richardson, phenomenal athlete. Who knows? We've seen that type before. And then the CJ Stroud one, see, look, again, I barely know anything, but he seems like the classic top three mistake guy

where you talk yourself into it, but he's coming from an awesome program, awesome program. But then two years in, it's like, wow, why did we think he was going to be good? Ohio State really boosted him up. I could see that going sideways too, and yet it seems like he's going to be number one. Danny, what's the fairest flaw of any of those guys in your mind, other than Bryce Young being a welterweight?

I mean, I think the fairest flaw is certainly with Richardson being just so inexperienced and so raw. He is literally the best athlete at quarterback that they've ever tested at the Combine. So like that is, you know, his ceiling is just incredible from the point of view

where you can utilize this guy in the run game. He could completely change the way your offense functions. It's like Jalen Hurts, but faster and 30 pounds heavier kind of deal. But at the same time, he just hasn't thrown a ton of passes in his college career.

And that is a huge red flag. That's the Trubisky issue. What did he have, like 17 starts? Something like that? Trey Lance was the same deal. Lance, yeah. It's one of those things where it just makes you extremely volatile

from a, we don't know exactly what you're going to be because he just doesn't have a ton of experience in these situations. Like everything is new. You got to you got to learn on the fly. And so I think that there's just a ton of variance with what could happen with Richardson. I think he could come in and be a superstar. We could see him turn into a superstar over time but at the same time like you said like the Trubisky thing it's just some maybe it just never comes together for him because he can't uh you know go through his reads or whatever it is whatever it may be like he's not accurate enough there's just a lot of ways for him to fail too I think so I would say that is the fairest one I think the least fair one is is comparing

Stroud to other Ohio State quarterbacks but it does I do think it's worth mentioning he's like been throwing to probably the best receivers he'll ever throw to in his like in his nfl career like he's literally been throwing to like top 10 nfl quarterbacks or sorry uh nfl receivers in his time at ohio state and so like that is a huge variable they kind of kind of take into account here he's been thrown to some amazing makes me nervous makes me nervous. Did you fall in love with him, though, during the playoffs? You know, in that one...

People who follow the draft now have heard people talk about this like a million times, and we're going to hear it brought up a million times now in the draft. But, well, you know, when it counted, he used his legs. He created. He escaped. Did that not sway you at all, Bill? No, because I've been burned by that logic before.

That's the thing. There's no right answer with these quarterbacks because what you just laid out with Richardson, Trubisky is the worst case scenario and Josh Allen, who had more college experience, but it was the same thing, right? Incredible athlete, not accurate. Well, if he could ever be accurate,

he'll be awesome. Well, he goes to Buffalo and then all of a sudden becomes accurate. And then he's awesome. But it took three years. It took to his third season, didn't it? And then they had to bring in Stefan Diggs. That really, really helped him too.

The surrounding supporting cast is so important. There's just a million variables that you got to get right. That's how you avoid getting old takes on draft predictions. I say this as someone who's been burnt, Josh Allen, is you just say, well, Will,

it just really depends on circumstances and where they land. And you say it like a really authoritative, smart NFL people know that you can't actually assess a rookie quarterback until you know which team drafts him. What does seem like there is a piece of this where if you're going to draft the guy, you better be drafting him into the perfect thing for him. Like if you're going to spend that, like Carolina, if they're spending that kind of capital on a QB, then you better make sure every single piece of whatever you're doing offensively is built around that QB. Because you had this even more invested to make it work because you just gave up all this shit for him.

I just think we're never going to figure out quarterbacks and it's harder than ever. It's like, we're now at, we're now like it's 40, 60. Now I used to feel like it was 50, 50.

Now it's like legitimately 40, 60. Like that Zach Wilson and some of the recent guys, I think have really skewed it. All right. Let's, uh, let's move on to who's up.

Is it Danny? You're up. Go ahead. Sure. You're up. Yeah. Why not? Um,

I don't represent the Seahawks delegation here. Gino Smith deal was obviously huge in our world, but also just in the NFL world in general, because he took a lot less money than I think anyone was expecting. Um, it was initially reported as three years, 105 million. Um,

it's actually closer to three years, 75 million, but there's only $27 and change guaranteed. So this is quite a bit lower than what everyone was expecting. In fact, I was expecting him to get more closer to the $105 billion figure that was originally reported.

Well, especially after Daniel Jones must have freaked you out, right? Exactly. That was after, right? What was the order in which the deals were done? Well, it's just like Daniel Jones. They were saying it's going to be 35 to 40. No question.

Yeah. I mean, Geno Smith was a better quarterback than Daniel Jones last year. But Daniel Jones is younger. I get it. I understand why he made more money. So I just want to... So I think just, yeah,

from a late career renaissance point of view, Gino Smith's story is awesome. It's good for the Seahawks. It's good, you know, that gives them a ton of flexibility going forward. If he turns out to be really good and he is clearly betting on himself, if he turns out to be really good,

they're going to pay him more money and that's going to be good for the Seahawks. But if he ends up kind of turning back into a pumpkin, then they can transition to the draft or whatever, like another free agent, and kind of go from there. So I thought that was a really interesting deal just from the NFL, but also just because I'm a Seahawks fan. It was awesome.

Mina, can we talk about the Seahawks for a second? Let me twist your arm. I know it's something you don't really like. They picked 5, 20, 37, and 52. They got Gino back on a pretty cheap contract for a starting QB. I would say it's on the absolute low end.

Very cheap, yeah. And they're in kind of a shit show of a division. Like right now in FanDuel, they're plus 450 to win the NFC West. The Niners are the favorite at minus 160. We have no idea when Brock Purdy is going to throw a football game. I mean, he might not play until October. We have no idea if Brock Purdy's going to throw football again. He might not play until October.

We have no idea if Trey Lance is good at football. And they just signed Sam Darnold as their third string quarterback. They lost McGlinchey. They beefed up their D-line. But I certainly don't feel like San Francisco is a slam dunk in that division by any means. Plus 450

seems super high. I mean, it's making a face. Well, the thing is... The CX do have a lot of really nice pieces. I really love the Gino deal. They have two... They were rookie tackles, offensive tackles. Now they're going to be in their

second year, but they're both on rookie contracts, which is not quite having a quarterback on a rookie deal, but pretty comparable in terms of the way it allows you to spend elsewhere on your team. So the offense is pretty set. The defense is still a work in progress. I mean, they do this, obviously Tariq Woolen broke out last year.

They added Draymond Jones, which is a really nice signing. But the problem with the San Francisco 49ers in particular is Kyle Shanahan is exceptional at targeting your linebacker group and we don't actually know who's playing linebacker for the Seahawks right now.

So there's still some areas of weakness on the roster that feel like specifically bad when you're playing San Francisco. Yeah, Brooks got hurt. You have four of the top 52 picks, including number five. And now we know you're not going to take a quarterback at number five. So let me get you to the...

Oh, oh. You think you might take one? What do you think, Danny? I mean, I think it's definitely an option for them. I think they recognize, and they said this at the combine, that they're not going to be picking at five probably anytime soon because they just have a higher floor than that. They've been used to that.

So this is an opportunity where four of the top five picks could be quarterbacks. There's a really strong likelihood that there is a quarterback there at five, is what I'm saying. And so I think they have to consider it and they have to think about the long-term future. And the contract for Geno would indicate that they're not married to him, literally, in terms of the contract.

But maybe from their point of view that they don't necessarily believe in him. I don't know. The deal is so small and gives them so much flexibility that you have to think maybe they're thinking longer term here. This is a subject of much debate in our psychotic secret Seahawks group chat. Yes. That is separate from you, Bill. Because we really go back and forth. My preference would be to not take quarterback personally.

Honestly, I think there's just too many needs in the front seven. So Danny, is there a guy who could be a multi-time all-pro who will be there at number five at some position that's not quarterback, in your opinion? Yes, I think Will Anderson is the first one. And if he's there at five, I think the Seahawks don't trade back and they don't take a quarterback because he's just the

type of player I think that could be, like you said, a multi-time all-pro or pro-bowler type player. He's kind of exactly what they need. They just need more juice on the edge. And I think he'd be a three-down player for them. I think there's... This is something that they probably wouldn't do because they haven't ever done this before. But there's a few corners that are really good and I think could be worthy of that high of a pick.

And then, obviously, Jalen Carter from Georgia. There is a lot of extenuating circumstances that might make them not take him. But he is a very talented player as well. So I think that they have options there at number five that would make them not go quarterback that they think they could instantly upgrade their team and make their team really good for a long time.

But yeah, I think if Will Anderson's gone, that changes things. Which quarterback falls if you had to bet on one of them, Mina out of the three, cause it seems like, like the fourth one's going to fall, but the top three, who knows?

Yeah. I think, I mean, really, I really believe they could go in any order. Richardson is the classic, like high ceiling prospect where like either a team will fall in love with him or several teams will be spooked by him.

So I think that he strikes me as the guy who could be there at five for Seattle. And look, the thing is even if Seattle, Geno, crushes again, they could always trade Richardson. And you could argue that quarterbacks

like that tend to retain their value. Richardson. And you could argue that that's, I mean, quarterbacks like that don't, they tend to retain their value. So it might be a smart bit of gamesmanship to draft him regardless. I don't know if I would do it. I'm just saying it's definitely on the table. I think you guys should be more bullish on the Seahawks.

That division is just a shit show. Arizona's going to be terrible. The Rams have openly admitted they're going to be terrible. They kind of want to be terrible. They're just completely throwing away the season. So there's two teams and one of the teams doesn't have a quarterback. Kyle Shanahan is

like the candy man for Seahawks fans. Danny knows. I'm more afraid of him than all but maybe six quarterbacks if I had to put them on. Give Kyle Shanahan anyone. Give him, I don't know, Josh Rosen, whatever. And I would be afraid of him against our defense.

He has just burned us so many times, so ruthlessly, so efficiently. He haunts me. Their playoffs went so badly that apparently there's a video, I missed it, like an NFL Films thing of George Kittle asking Brock Purdy if he could throw left-handed. This was during a playoff game.

That's when you know your season's gone south. Hey, starting quarterback, can you throw with the other hand? Is that possible? All right, we're going to take a break and I'm going to go with mine. The NBA playoffs coming very soon. Now is the perfect time to download FanDuel America's number one sportsbook. New customers get a no sweat first bet up to $1,000. That is bonus bets.

If your first bet doesn't win, download the FanDuel sportsbook app. Safe, secure, super easy to use. Bet on everything from the money line to point scores. Threes drained. Same game parlays. You can go bet the MVP odds. They're changing every day. Embiid, Yoka, Giannis, pick one.

Go for it. Don't miss the chance to get your no sweat first bet up to $1,000 bonus bets when you go to fanduel.com slash BS. Once again, fanduel.com slash BS to learn more. And by the way, FanDuel, now live in Massachusetts.

Download the app now and take advantage of their great special offers, boosts, and more. And you can check out Off the Pike with Brian Barrett. He will have some special bets as well. Make every moment more with FanDuel. An official sports betting partner of the NBA, you must be 21 plus and president select states. First online real money wager only.

$10 deposit required. Refund issued is now a drawable bonus. Bets that expire in 14 days. Restrictions apply. See full terms at FanDando.com slash sportsbook. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. Hope is here. In Massachusetts, visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 1-800-327-5050 for 24-7 support. In New York, call 1-877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY. Fando is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under agreement with

Kansas Star Casino LLC in Colorado, Iowa, Michigan, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Tennessee, or Virginia. Call 1-800-GAMBLE or visit Fandle.com slash RG. Call 1-800-NEXTSTEP or text NEXTSTEP to 53342 in Arizona. In Connecticut, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat. In Indiana, 1-800-9-WITH-IT. In Kansas, 1-800-522-4700 or visit ksgamblinghelp.com. Louisiana, 877-770-STOP.

In Maryland, visit mdgamblinghelp.org. In Wyoming, 800-522-4700. In West Virginia, visit 1800gambler.net. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. You know me, I can't go a day without sports. I really can't. And now Monday nights are all about hockey. That's right.

There's a new exclusive home for streaming Monday night NHL hockey. And it's on Prime. All season long, watch Prime Monday night hockey deliver unreal plays, the biggest goals, can't miss moments.

Matthews, McDavid, Crosby, the NHL's best. They're all on Prime. Prime Monday night hockey. It's on Monday. It's on Prime. Okay. I'm going to leave It's on prime. Okay. I'm going to leave Rogers on the board.

I know he's going to go at some point. So I'm going to go into the Lamar thing this way. This is my favorite thing about the Lamar situation, which I just, I'm just kind of dumbfounded by because clearly there's a change of scenery thing that he needs. We've seen what other teams have paid for quarterbacks, both in contract and trade value stuff. And it's just bizarre to me that nobody's made a move on him yet when there's multiple

teams that could have. The thing that I love about this the most is that this all stems, the ground zero of this whole Lamar thing is the idiot Browns who've been the worst franchise of this entire century. Not even close. They're like the Clippers in the 80s combined with the Sacramento Kings from 06 to 22 combined with

five other terrible teams. They just go all in on this Deshaun Watson thing with the no trade clause and a crazy all guaranteed, crazy amount of money, three first round picks. And it was the proverbial, the drunkest guy in your fantasy draft who just bids $98 for Christian McCaffrey

and just throws the old draft basically in a whirlpool. And now it's screwed up this Lamar thing. And the Ravens have to be so fucking mad at the Browns who they've just killed for two straight years or decades, right? That's like beyond the black sheep brother. They've just been annihilating them. And yet they've screwed up their Lamar thing. I just can't believe that that's how this played out. I would be so mad if I was a Ravens fan that the Browns were the ones that did this. Anyway, that's my Lamar take.

Steve Bishotti, who's the owner of the Ravens, he said that. He came out and said... You know the, I think you should leave. Oh my god, he admitted. Yeah. When the deal happened, there was literally a quote from Bishotti. I think it was at the owner's meetings. Bishotti, at the meetings, where he

was like, well, really wish the Browns hadn't done that with Deshaun Watson. Flash forward a year later. It's like he, it's the most prescient, like that quote has basically set the table for everything that has happened since then. Not just involving Bishotti,

but clearly all of the other owners who feel the same way. Everybody is so mad at Cleveland and he came out and said it. But to borrow, to go back yet another bachelor analogy, I'm not just doing this because you're hearing me now. I feel like I would have done this organically. The Browns were the super drunk one at the cocktail party, just completely wreaking havoc, but then starting nine other fights. That contract, I feel like somebody's going to write a book about it. Because the other thing was Watson looked terrible last year. And we haven't even mentioned all the

other stuff that comes with having Deshaun Watson on your team in 2022 and 2023. So I don't know, it feels like that completely screwed up. And Danny, I think he's gone. I like, I, I'm a big tea leaves guy. I've read all the stories and I have a vested interest because I think the pats are kind of a stealth home for him. Ooh, that would be interesting. I don't think they're a top two candidate, but I think if you're going to expand the list of five, they'd be on there. Kyle, settle down. But I just think it's pretty rare to have a guy like that out there. Now, I'm a little worried about the durability side with him and the fact that he was injured the last two years. And just in general,

these quarterbacks that are athletic, but don't have the big frames like Dante Culpepper, Josh Allen, stuff like that makes me a little nervous. But at the same time, it's two first round picks. And I have to pay Lamar Jackson? Fine. I have Mac Jones as my quarterback. I would do that every time. I mean, yeah. If you're looking at the actual just market rate, that is a bargain for any starting quarterback. I mean, like Russell Wilson, it was like multiple first round picks plus players. You know what I mean? And so for a guy like Lamar Jackson, who is young and is recently an MVP, like changes the way your offense runs.

Absolutely. I think, you know, that's why so many people were kind of crying collusion is because it's like, this doesn't make sense that no other teams would go and try and like sign him to an offer sheet or whatever. I think that the hard part and the, there's a lot of layers to it, but the fact that he's representing himself

is also a weird part of this whole thing because there is a chance that it's just like the well is poisoned. Like he just hates the Ravens front office now because you're having these discussions directly with the team. And there can be, you know, like it could go bad. It could like be like bad feelings. And he could be like, basically, F these people. I'm not working for them again.

And I can take my talents elsewhere and thrive. And so, I think he feels, in addition to the fact he's representing himself, and that's this layer, he feels like he owes it

to the quarterback position too, I think, to set this thing that, yes, we are going to do fully guaranteed deals from now on. If I accept anything less, then it's going to go back to thing that like, yes, we are going to do fully guaranteed deals from now on. If I accept anything less, then it's going to go back to the status quo because I think,

you know, I think he might look at it like he has a chance to actually make a sea change in the NFL. It's like, I mean, Kirk Cousins deal is fully guaranteed, isn't it? And so it's not like Deshaun Watson is the only one that's done it,

but his is short. Uh, Kirk Cousins is shorter and it's, it's just like a different structure. But, um, I don't know. I one that's done it, but his is short. Kirk Cousins is shorter and it's, it's just like a different structure. But I don't know. I think that there's also, there's just like more layers to it than just like getting a deal done. Like,

I think he feels that he represents, you know, all quarterbacks here and, and, and needs to kind of like get, get that going. What I don't understand was the rush from all of these teams to immediately announce to the world,

aka via, you know, whatever, their reporters, or the reporters who cover the teams, were not even putting in a call. Like, that's what... Because you can go team by team, and for some of them, make stronger cases than others,

why they wouldn't want to do the deal, the contract, whatever. There's certain teams where I do think it doesn't make sense that they're not interested. But to not even contact him was preposterous. And then to go back to the risk thing, yeah, there is risk

that comes with him because of the size of the contract and the injury history. But I just saw a tweet about, I think it was Greg Doyle or something, about how the Colts might trade down for Herndon Hooker and whatever. And I'm like, if you're a Colts fan and you've been in quarterback hell ever since Andrew Luck, you want to keep going this route.

Right now, you're probably you're not you're not even first or second at choosing a quarterback. Or do you want to just take the guy who, you know, is electric, even if there is a little bit of risk? Like, that doesn't make any sense to me. And by the way, you think Jim Irsay would be the one owner who's crazy enough to do it. Right. My buddy house thinks they're getting them in Washington. So I don't, I don't know if that's true.

I think San Francisco is interesting to me as a, as a dark horse candidate, because there's the Trey Lance part. They have the picks, but they're lower in the first round picks. So they, you know, I think part of the reason the teams like meaning you mentioned some of the teams, like why wouldn't they go for them? It does seem like the teams that have top 10 picks, maybe they want to wait

until after the draft and then you make a run for them because then it's next year's pick. And then you're not giving up like, like if you're Carolina, like the net, the, before they made the trade, the ninth pick, um, the Pats have the 10th pick. If they're, if they wanted to go for Lamar, you want to wait until after you draft the 10th pick and keep that guy and then trade for him in May. The question is whether he'll be available in May. But I think the agent thing is a way bigger piece of this. It's really unusual because a lot of the, and other

people have made this point, but in situations like this, when there's real acrimony, sometimes you need like a middleman and it doesn't seem like he has a middleman. It's just like, we're unhappy with you. And Lamar's like, well, we're unhappy with you. I'm unhappy with all of you too. And there's nobody kind of brokering it, which, you know, over the course of NFL history, we've seen agents who most of the time are reprehensible, but sometimes they can at least be somewhat of a peacemaker, find a new spot for the person and be the Jerry Maguire of the whole thing.

I don't like the idea of him representing himself. I wish he wasn't doing that. Normally, like in the NBA, you can do it because like, all right, I'm signing my max extension. I know what the number is. Just give me the 250 for five years. That know what the number is. Just give me the 250 for five years. That's what the number is. But in this case,

if he's trying to find the right situation, I still feel like the Pats are in this though, because he's killed, he's shredded the Pats, right? It is one of those things where, yeah. It's one of those things where when it's a guy who's you've had personal experience of just annihilating you, you kind of makes

you want him more. All right, Mina, what do you got for the next one? Like the Bills and Damien Harris. OK. Don't get me started on freaking Buffalo and Damien Harris

for $2 million. I had a feeling that might be that might be triggering for you. He's going to rush for 1,200 yards for them. Anyway, go ahead. But you,

I feel like I pulled off the interdivisional equivalent of getting Gusecki for nothing. So I really like that them. Anyway, go ahead. But I feel like I pulled off the interdivisional equivalent of getting Gesicki for nothing. So I really like that move. Yeah, I did like that. We're going to use him as a slot receiver. Yeah. That's not my pick.

My pick is Sean Payton coming back. Yeah. Instant man style, out of retirement to coach Russell Wilson. This is incredible for a number of reasons. One of which, and this isn't the football side of it. Sean Payton, I just feel like a coach like him has been missing from the NFL. I have this take that, I think I've shared this with you, Bill,

that the coaches now like each other too much. There are too many Shanahan-McVay friends. They're bros. Too many coaching trees. Bring back the beast. Yeah. Jim Harbaugh is who we really need, but with him on the sidelines still,

Sean Payton, legendary beaver, petty, incredible, not a buddy-buddy guy. So I like him back in the NFL because he is a true star coach. Yeah. And I just think it's funny that he is i so he was sort of the crown jewel of the coaching carousel um but

so when we were talking about him and like where he might end up i don't think many people picked denver because it didn't seem like a good place, right? Because of the tire fire last season, stuck with Russell Wilson, who didn't play well last year. But, you know, we forgot. Don't forget the no picks part. All of that. However, I neglected to account for the fact that the Walmart fortune backing the Broncos

made it a very enticing job in certain ways. So I've been very interested in seeing. I'm very curious to see if he can rehabilitate Russell Wilson's career at all. I've been interested in the moves the Broncos have made, and they've been really active in free agency,

bolstering the offensive line. And I think a lot of their moves point to them being focused on running the offensive line. And I think a lot of their moves point to them being focused on running the ball more. Frankly, they bring in Mike Finchie, who's a very good run blocking right tackle out of San Francisco.

So I think Sean Payton is going to try to minimize Wilson's role in the offense a little bit. And I'm curious to see if it'll work. It seemed like Sheil wrote about this for the ringer.

He went big and physical and a lot of the moves were not moves you make if you're trying to build around your superstar quarterback who's going to throw for 5,000 yards. They paid a lot for a backup QB. They paid Stidham, what was it? 5 million a year? It's pretty

in the high end. It's more than my guy Minshew got in the Colts. I was surprised he took the deal as well. And I think you hit the key point, Mina, that the Walton family, and it was obviously just an insane amount of money. And you start talking yourself into Russell Wilson from two years ago.

It's like, oh, I mean, look at those 2021 tapes. Oh, they look pretty good in week six. And you just think, oh, maybe he's hurt. Maybe the Hackett situation, we've never had a worse coach, probably in the last 10 years than Hackett last year. And, oh, maybe he's hurt. Maybe the Hackett situation, we've never had a worse coach probably in the last 10 years than Hackett last year. Oh, I could fix that. We'll get the line better, et cetera, et cetera.

I love it too. I love also that Danny shot his wide in free agency. I love when these guys come in and they're just like, what can I get? How much do I have? They don't think of the salary cap as this multi-year thing. It's just like, we can I get? How much do I have? Like, they don't think of the salary cap as this multi-year thing.

It's just like, we have this much to spend. I'm spending it now. But they did go for it. The question for me is to what end because they're in the division with the Chargers

and the Chiefs. Right. I also found it interesting. Again, there's multiple layers to this I think are very funny. For starters, Peyton went out of his way several times apparently

at the con line to talk about how Russell Wilson was bugging Drew Brees because they live by each other. And he's like, Brees was telling Peyton, if you're going to take this job, can you take it already?

Because Russell Wilson is bugging me. And Peyton said it as if he was joking, but Matthew Barry wrote in his column that he kind of interpreted it like he had heard that there's a little bit of truth to this. He is actually kind of annoyed at Russell Wilson for constantly bugging Drew Brees, but there's that.

And I thought it was a little bit ironic because it came out, according to The Athletic, Russell Wilson went to Jody Allen, the Seahawks owner, and tried to get Pete Carroll and John Schneider fired because he wanted them to hire Sean Payton. And so now Payton is with Russell Wilson in Denver, but maybe doesn't want Russell Wilson. So there's just a lot of layers to this.

We'll see. And I totally agree, Mina, that it looks like they're doing the whole not let Russell cook thing. They're basically going to try and mitigate some of the issues that he has now as a quarterback. He's getting older. He doesn't run around as much. doing the whole not let Russell cook thing. Like they're basically going to try and mitigate, you know, some of the, the issues that he has now,

you know, as a quarterback, like he's getting older, he doesn't run around as much. He doesn't escape as much. And so they got to, I think, get back to the roots of what he was like early in his career,

where, you know, he's got a really strong run game. He's got a good defense and they kind of like, you know, mitigate some of the issues that he has, like throwing over the middle field, things like that.

Yeah. We've come all the way around on Russ Cook, Danny and I, because it is it was really clear at the end of his time in Seattle that, and I don't think this is true of his entire tenure there, when defenses started

playing more of those too high looks and Seattle couldn't run the ball effectively, Wilson was pretty limited because he wasn't able to throw deep. And as Danny said, he's not really good at throwing over the middle of the field either. So I feel like Peyton, who by the way, the other thing I should say,

people have forgotten, he is one of the best offensive coaches of all time. I don't think people remember at the end of Brees' tenure how limited Drew Brees was as a quarterback and how Peyton was still making chicken salad out of that. So, you know, it makes sense that they're going to be more of that, you know, wide zone boot play action, heavy offense. And I wouldn't be surprised if it looks better than it did last year.

So let Russ cook is going to become let Russ order. Let Russ order from Postmates and Caviar. Danny, what do you got next? Oh, man. Let's see here. This is going to be man let's see here this is going to be out of left field this is going to be out of left field I really enjoyed the NFLPA report on all the franchises I thought this was such a funny interesting

thing they literally released it right after all the GMs had finished going on the podium at the combine so it was a little bit disappointing it was like an hour after everyone was done. They released this report because we weren't able to talk to anybody about it. But I thought it was very interesting getting some of the information. I just kept picturing Major League, the movie Major League,

where the owner is basically trying to make everything as hard as possible on all the players throughout the season. And some of the teams that were the worst, not super surprising, the commanders were dead last, according to the aggregate. Nobody was expecting that. The Jags had a problem with rats.

They had a rat infestation in their facility during the season. There was multiple teams who had been... The players were complaining because there was no players' family room on game day. So the wives had to breastfeed the babies on the floor. The stadium was public restrooms.

There was multiple teams that this happened with. The Cardinals, I believe, and the Bengals. Sorry, actually, no, it was the Jags and the Bengals. Both had this problem. So, like, I don't know. It was just like an illuminating look into the actual day-to-day life of players. The Cardinals got last for the treatment in families because they had to pay for all their own meals

at the facility. They're the only team that made the players pay for all their meals. It's funny. All the teams were on brand. I totally expected the Bengals, the Cardinals, Commanders. The Jags surprised me a little bit, though,

because Shad Khan is really, really rich. And they're also doing simultaneously AEW, the wrestling thing. And I just, it never occurred to me that they would be one of the true cheapos. But they had rodents in the locker room. They had, like, a legitimate rat issue. In Jacksonville's defense, I will say,

the report said the players were confident that the team would rectify these situations and improve them. It just hadn't happened yet. They didn't feel like they were getting screwed, I think. It was just more like, okay, we need to fix this. There weren't a lot of coaches and people. I think the Chiefs

trainer got named, if I remember correctly. Was it the Ravens or the Chiefs? I don't want to misname them. But anyways, the coach that was the ravens the chiefs i don't want to misname them but anyways the coach that was named was josh mcdaniels which coupled with darren waller and his wife dunking on him over the wedding thing yeah kind of a rough off season for josh um yeah just from a manager i would say every every waking moment of his non-Patriots anything has been pretty rough. Yeah, the poor Jags. I'm going to unleash an incredibly hot take on you guys that I've been thinking about

really since the playoffs. I still think the Jags could have beaten the Chiefs. I really feel like that game was sitting there and there's sliding doors where like three out of 10 times they win the game. Sure. And we never see the Chiefs in the next round. That game was close. The Jets are for real.

When you have a quarterback like Trevor Lawrence, yeah, sure. I think anything can happen. Okay. I think so. I wanted to get that off my chest. I like it. All right. You know, I'm not going to do Rodgers.

This would be a great bid, by the way. We just never do Rodgers. This would be a great bid, by the way. We just never do Rodgers. I want to keep putting them off. I like that tight ends and running backs are now the freelance cameramen of the NFL. Like they don't even, it's like, I won Damien Harris, one year, two million. Like Damien Harris is good.

He didn't play as much as he normally would have last year because Ramon J. Stevenson became one of, like, the four best running backs in the league. Tight ends. Dalton Schultz thinks he's going to get a huge payday. Ends up with the Texans for, like, one year, six million. The price for running backs and tight ends is now year to year. They're not even, like, what did Rashad Penny get from the Eagles? He got, like, a three-fer. They're not even like, what did Rashad,

what did Penny get from the Eagles? He got like a three-fer. Just barely over the league. It was like 1.3 million or something, which is insane. Big injury history. So basically the NFL is turning into where fantasy drafts go after like round two, where it's like,

I want to get a tight end for a dollar. I didn't get Travis Kelsey. So now I'm going to do, I'll get Evan Ingram for a dollar. I'll't get Travis Kelsey. So now I'm going to do, I'll get Evan Ingram for a dollar. I'll take, I'll just roll the dice on four different running backs for $5

and maybe I'll hit with one of them. Now all these teams have actually adopted that strategy and there's an awesome running back in the draft this year who everybody thinks is one of the best five players in the draft

and yet he'll probably go, what, 20th, 25th? I like that you said 20th right there. So the whole league is out of whack. five players in the draft. And yet he'll probably go, what, 20th? 25th? I like that you said 20th right there. So the whole league is out of whack. Yeah. Yikes. 20. Bill, it's kind of interesting because it does reflect fantasy football a little bit.

I mean, in the real world, tight ends have been a smaller part of the passing game. They've gradually sort of been phased out more or less over the last few years. There's like one or two or three sometimes actually good fantasy tight ends because at this point, most teams are just running

three receiver sets and tight ends are not a big, huge part of the passing game or if they are, they're like the third or fourth option in the passing game. You know what I mean? And then with running backs, it's always just the injury concern, the durability concern. There's just a lot of really good running backs.

There's just a surplus of guys that can come in and play for you. And so obviously the price is going to go down. But I think the tight end thing is very interesting. I agree. It's basically just because there's very few teams that have a tight end who is the first or second option in their offense. Yeah. Well, it's interesting like danny you're right about obviously over the last 10 years the explosion of 11 personnel but some of the best offenses used have the chiefs the super bowl winning offense

famously used 13 personnel more than any team in the league and into great effect with tight ends that most people can't name outside of kelsey I think, though, Bill, you're absolutely right. And I think it reflects a few things. One is the league reacting to the Zika-Elliott contract, some of these other contracts, looking at them and realizing this is never again. And there are some tight-end contracts as well, including one that Patriots just got off their books.

But I also think this is a very deep draft at both of those two positions. True. Not just Bijan. The running back class is really nice. It's a really, really nice tight end class. I'm sure you've heard a lot about that. And also, free agency in general

was really muted this year. Like there were not in any Christian Kirk style, whoa, we got that much deals. Running back and tight end was dramatic. I would say maybe safety too. But for the most part, no team went crazy this offseason. I felt like most deals were pretty safe.

And I thought that was pretty interesting. It was a tough beat for the Pats, who spent third round picks on two tight ends in the same draft and then spent like $60 million on John Smith and Hunter Henry, whatever it was. And now tight ends.

Now you get Gusecki for basically one for $6 million and some incentives, but is way better than any of those four guys. I think the tight end position is interesting to me because it seems like there's like 58 of the same guy in the league now.

It's like, I still don't understand what happened with the Chiefs where all of a sudden they had new guys that never heard of, where it's like, that guy's open for 20 yards. Who's that? Oh, it's their four-string tight end. And he looks the same as 30 other tight ends

I've been watching on the league pass. The running back thing, it's been headed this way for a while. The durability, plus the fact all the miles that those guys have on them from high school and college. And it just seems like you're seeing that with Austin Eckler. Eckler is one of the only running backs we have who can play all three downs, you know, and basically he's available and who's going to trade for him? By the way, if he leaves the Chargers, that's a major blow for them. Is it? I mean, or can they draft a guy?

They're, by the way, picking right after Seattle, so that would be an interesting Bijon spot. But look at Carolina. They trade away Christian McCaffrey. The run game doesn't skip a beat. It's just, you know, and I think Christian McCaffrey, by the way, was incredibly useful in San Francisco

where he was used really uniquely. But these trends are happening for football reasons, not because, you know, there's a particular bias against the position, which is unfortunate. It sucks.

Like, I feel bad for the running backs, but that's what it is. I love Dante Foreman, and I can't believe that was another one. He was one year, three million to the Bears. Like, that guy was awesome last year, the second half of the year.

All right, we're going to take one more break and then do three more. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl ring. He rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November.

Sign up now. Just search Movember. What does possible sound like for your business? It's the ability to reach further with access to over 1,400 lounges worldwide. Redefine possible with Business Platinum. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply.

Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. All right, coming back. Mina, what do you got? Is it time? Yeah, let's do it. No, I'm going to do a football. I don't care. Mine is sort of deciding between two. Okay. Mine is sort of tangentially

related to he who we are not naming thus far. The Detroit Lions, man. I had them. That was my next one. Great one. Everybody, myself included, loving what they're doing in free agency. I'm pretty confident they're the current favorites to win the NFC North right now. Bill, you said you looked at the odds, right? So I texted Sal and a couple of other of our friends because I was stunned that they were plus 130. I actually thought they were going to be like minus 150,

something like that. They have the 6th and the 18th picks on top of all the stuff they did in free agency and they went 9-8 last year. And that division stinks. Plus they got Jamison Williams coming back.

They're legitimate favorites. Yeah. So many things working in their favor. Jamison Williams coming back with Demon Play. So the offense, working in their favor. They had Jameson Williams coming back. We didn't even play the offense,

which I think finished top five in DVOA. And then perhaps equally importantly, they bring back Ben Johnson, their offensive coordinator, doing something that I have always advocated for teams to do,

which is spend everything on your assistants. You can just, you know, throw money at them. I think there are other reasons why he stayed, but maybe he didn't like the jobs or whatever. But clearly the dude got a raise and he is awesome. So that was such a cool...

So you're saying the Patriots strategy of relatives and washed up other coaches working out of position is a bad strategy? Joe Judge got promoted today. I saw it, right? Oh, great. He was so fired up for it. Special teams.

And then the other thing is, and this is the free agency stuff, really, the glaring weakness of the team was the pass defense. Worst QBR in the NFL, worst in a bunch of categories. They went out and they completely remade their secondary aggressively, too,

because they tried to get Jalen Ramsey, which was the other thing I was thinking about doing that one. But they miss on him. so they sign a bunch of kind of like your favorite cornerbacks cornerback guys like Cam Sutton, Emmanuel Mosley coming off the injury people that football people just love and then they get CJ Gardner Johnson who has familiarity with their defensive coordinator Aaron Glenn on a on a really, really cheap deal. Now at number six, they're in pole position to do a million different things.

So love their offseason. Love them as division favorites. Love the Lions. And Danny, I'm just going to say it. They probably have one of the four best quarterbacks in the conference. If Rodgers leaves. Right. Yeah.

Name me four that you would rather have in the NFC than I guess you would take Geno, Dak, Kurtz. I'm trying to decide if Stafford is even. Like Cousins? Yeah.

No, Stafford. Stafford's a tough ranking right now. I can't tell if he can throw or not, which is obviously important. Would you rather have Goff or Cousins at this point?

That's tough. I'd rather have Goff or Cousins at this point? That's tough. I'd rather have Goff. Goff played surprisingly well last year. I think I would probably pick Cousins just by a hair, but if we're even discussing it, I think that's notable. Because we had given up on Goff. In this offense, I don't know if he was

necessarily elevating everyone around him, but he was delivering the football on time. He's doing kind of what he did earlier in his career with the Rams and running the offense to the way that you can run it with getting the ball to your playmakers and letting them do the work. I thought he took some hits too, which was the rap on him earlier on in his career that you could hit him a couple times.

And he would fall apart. He's tough. I like that team. Jameson Williams is a great point because they're going to have the sixth and the 18th pick, but then they also get him. Who's almost like a red shirt freshman in college or something. They,

they trotted him out. I had him in fantasy last year. So I was kind of like, I wonder, and he would only play like 10 plays, but they would always run one play a game where he just got wide open 50 yards down the field, beating people by 10 yards.

He was my favorite wide receiver in the draft when he was healthy at Alabama. But I mean, okay. So Lions fans love Jared Gaff. So they don't love it when you say this. So I'm almost afraid to say it. Yeah. This would be such a good landing spot for Anthony Richardson at six.

Oh yeah. Sits for a year. Perfect place. Great offense. Great place to learn. And then you get to tap into that upside that he provides. I would love that for him. I thought you were going to say Lamar there

because that was Shio Kapadia. Also interesting. His big, like, why wouldn't the Lions trade for... Because I think they could do the 18th pick, not the 6th, right? Wouldn't you get to pick your pick? So, yeah. For the Lamar thing?

6th, trade 18, and next year's 1st, and other stuff, and then pay Lamar. But I don't think they have to. I think they're in a great spot. I was stunned that they were still plus money as a favorite, because Green Bay is going to go the other way. I don't, the bears, I just need to see fields have a game where he's like 25 for 35 or something. Like they just didn't throw the ball at all last year. I have no idea what to make of

them. And they feel like they're maybe a year away from being whoever they are. And then Minnesota looks like a mess. And it looks like, you know, they're kind of a stealth candidate to maybe trade Cousins if, you know, once we get past the draft and quarterback roulette slows down. Danny, is that inconceivable? No. Whoever doesn't get, like,

let's say the Jets-Rogers thing just falls apart. Right. And the Jets are like, shit, we need a quarterback. I don't know, it could be Cousins. I'm not positive he's going to be in that team. I mean, Cousins is, you know, the hired gun of, like,

veteran quarterbacks at this point. Like, he did the thing where he got, he, you know, bet on himself and he made tons and tons of money. It doesn't really feel like the Vikings love him. Like, they've sort of slipped up several times talking about, like, how they don't really buy him as, like, a long-term solution.

I mean, I don't know if that's... It's pretty much acknowledged and everyone agrees with that. But you don't say it. If you're the team, you don't say that. Even though they have a couple of times. So I thought that was a little bit funny. So yeah, it does feel like they're not...

They don't look at him as like, this is our guy. It's just kind of like he's here for now. Lions were 9-8 last year. So to me, they have the kind of feel of's here for now. Lions were nine and eight last year. So to me, they have the kind of feel of the Eagles last year where the Eagles, it was just sitting there and everybody was staring at it

and everybody was going, ah, Jalen Hurts. Like that was like the hiccup, right? And then they kept adding people and then their odds started to shift and they became like the sexy pick and it kept shifting. And then all of adding people and then their odds started to shift and they became like the sexy pick and it kept shifting. And then all of a sudden they were favored ahead of Dallas. Goff is kind of the hiccup for the case for them. And also like Dan Campbell,

the game management stuff, there were some hiccups. I would use the word again. But I find it hard to believe they're not two wins better this year. Like 11 and six seems pretty reasonable. Either way, this is probably the most exciting spot the Lions have been in since I can't even remember. Okay, Danny, you're up.

All right, I'm going to do it. I'm doing it. I want to talk about, well, let's just frame it this way. The darkness retreat was just a content goldmine. It really was.

He really milked it, too. We talked about this thing for so long. It was like multiple weeks. And he keeps referencing coming out of the darkness, which to me, it's like, can we get more absurd? This is the most absurd storyline ever. The darkness retreat.

He's really milked it. I mean, there was no question this Jets thing was just going to keep going and going and going. And, you know, the Jets were equally as incompetent because they go and they bat their eyelashes at him and basically lose their leverage. And now it's just a staring match. It seems like I wouldn't give up a first round pick for him. Would you, Mina?

Why would you do that? They have no other options. The Jets, you mean, have no other options. The Jets have no other options. The Pack They have no other options. The Jets, you mean, have no other options. The Jets have no other options. The Packers have no other options. Yeah, that's the thing. What are the Packers going to do? I know.

The leverage discussion is really... I actually feel... I said the Packers had a ton of leverage and I kind of was like, I actually don't feel like either side has leverage. So I kind of want to walk that back because both sides are in hell right now the question is who's willing to just go to the ninth circle uh i mean the jets there's nothing else they can do but the packers will also be in hell if he comes

back and makes them meet the salary or whatever and does you know the far thing so i i don't feel like you can make a truly strong argument for either side because of the the uniqueness of this situation um yeah it's it's a tough one to talk about because i don't really have a good feel for when it's going to end um and what it's going to take i like you were hearing rumors of like all kinds of packages and I guess maybe like a couple seconds a conditional something might make it work. The Packers Danny and I were both at the combine

literally the number one thing people said at the combine is the Packers are done. They want like even you check into a hotel the hotel person's like yo Packers man they have been there talking how they want to move on from Aaron Rodgers. It's like the worst best secret. Which is kind of funny because I think the Jets have more people in, more friends in the media.

But it's, yeah, it's, I just kind of want it to be done so we can move on to the football side. Well, let me ask you guys this, though. Forget the drama and the darkness and all of that. The darkness. Are you buying the Aaron Rodgers led jets as being a Superbowl contender build their inner division? Like how scared are you? Not scared.

No, I didn't think he was good last year and he was in an inferior conference and he didn't play well last year. I also thought it was interesting. You know, Devante Adams, I did, I did a thing about Rodgers last week

and I was saying how his contract was one of the reasons Devontae Adams left and a Packer fan in my life corrected me. It was like, actually, Devontae said the Packers offered him more money. I was like, they did? So I went and I read, I didn't remember that.

So I went back and I read the stories. In the stories, he's talking about, you know, they offer me more, but it was time for me to new challenge in Vegas. And it seems like Aaron's only going to be there like for a year or two. Anyway, it's like a year or two.

He signed a three year, like guaranteed. Why did Devante Adams think it was only a year? And it just got me back thinking like how fucking stupid the Packers are. Like they could have gotten out of this a year ago. And instead they like tripled down on a guy who was already unhappy with him. And like, just to, even if they do this trade,

let's say, let's say the Jets panic and give them a first. They still have to carry, if it's after June 1st, 15.8 million on this year's cap and 24.4 next year, just dead money. So just how they botched it last year was unbelievable in itself. And then everything that's going on this year, it's, I don't ever remember, you know, there's been bad QB endings, like Peyton Manning kind of batting his eyelashes at everybody after that terrible Broncos Superbowl year when he could barely throw the ball and

nobody wanted to sign him. Like that was weird, but you know but that's kind of how it ends. Montana, they want to go with Steve Young and he goes to KC and has a couple more years. This to have somebody to have a run with the same franchise end because the franchise is like, not only do we not want you, we're going to the combine

and we're even going to be telling people in Au Bon Pain who are making us soup how much we don't want Aaron Rodgers anymore. That's just a really dark ending and we haven't even gotten to the Jets part yet the Jets haven't won since 1970 you know and have the most traumatized fan base of probably anyone other than maybe the Browns I'll defend Rodgers the player for a second you know he was actually hurt last year I do think that affected his play i don't think he's washed but okay i also think like i have seen some takes and i kind of did we did this with denver last year sort of positing that he's like walking onto you know the dream team

um i like the jets young skilled players and and Randall Cobb when he inevitably joins, but I don't know who's playing offensive tackle for the Jets. And I would also note that the Bills are still a very good team. And my other topic that I would have done is I love what the Miami Dolphins did on defense this year. So the notion to me that suddenly the Jets are leapfrogging both of those teams, sorry, but I'm not going to acknowledge the Patriots, it just doesn't really... I don't know.

I'm skeptical of that, like you are. And Brees Hall, probably not back until October? She's in a one-year injury? If he was 100% healthy, I could be like, well, they do have B Bruce Hall and Gary Wilson. That's going to be unbelievable.

But they only have one of them. I think the other thing that is funny about this, I don't know if irony or whatever, but, like, Rodgers is... It feels like he's actively making the Jets worse everywhere else. They're going to improve

that quarterback. That's... Yeah. That's for sure. But he's draining the cap space. He's going to require draft picks. I don't know if the Elijah Moore thing is... It's tangentially related to the Packers, I feel like,

because maybe they need picks to make this trade, but they had to get rid of a very exciting, young, talented receiver. And then they had him sign... I mean, obviously, they were going to say they were going to sign Al-Nasr anyway, but they wouldn't sign Al-Nasr to Pease Rogers. They brought, I mean, obviously, they're going to say they were going to sign Alan Zard anyway, but they wouldn't sign Alan Zard to Pease Rogers. They brought in Nathaniel Hackett, who I don't know if he's like

a good offensive coordinator. We saw what he did in Denver last year. Yeah. And then, you know, the fact that the history here is he doesn't like to throw to young guys who,

and especially guys that are like, maybe not really precise in their route running or on time and like Garrett Wilson was the most exciting part of the Jets offense last year. And like if he, if Rodgers comes in and like shuts him out as he does with so many young receivers like, is he actually just making them

actively worse? On top of the Jets fan base who will instantly be triggered against him the moment he gives them a reason to. I just don't think the quarterback should be the biggest distraction on the team. I'm old school. I think the quarterback,

the quarterback's the pilot of the airplane. Should be the number one wide receiver. The quarterback is your pilot in the cockpit. You just want like a nice, normal, boring guy in the cockpit. I don't need somebody like, where's the pilot? Oh, he's just getting out of his darkest retreat.

The pilot's upset with a couple of the flight attendants. We're just trying to sort it out right now. It's like, what? Can we fly the plane? I don't know. I don't know if I'm speaking out of school here, but I also heard that he only lasted two days in the darkness retreat. Is that true? Is that out there? I heard that too. I don't know if it's out there, out there, but I heard that at the combine and it's hilarious if it's true. There was a lot of talk at the combine. Wow. Rodgers.

A lot of people talking. You just made the Tuesday McAfee show, Dan. All right, I'll finish this up. I really wanted to do something about Miami going all in without having any idea if Tua can play 17 games, but that's not my favorite thing. That actually kind of bums me out because them penciling him to just like,

oh, Tua will be fine this year after a three concussion season makes me nervous. I am going to go, I'm going to end it with this. The Patriots and the Patriots fan base being more optimistic than usual because we might have a competent coaching staff underneath Belichick. That's how far things sunk where it's like Bill O'Brien is here. It's like we landed Bill Walsh in 1980 compared to what we had. It's like Bill O'Brien.

Well, now that he's here, he's going to unleash Mac. It's like Bill O'Brien was like, you know, pretty good coach in the Texans, but it ended pretty badly there with him as the GM. And I don't know, the concept of him as the savior

and then Belichick being like, you know what I'm going to do this year? I'm going to pay my coaches more and I'm going to take the assistant coaching staff way more seriously. It's basically what he said. Kind of wish that had happened last year, but I love that that's one of our reasons for optimism.

Good coaching. This is a Bill Belichick coach team and we're excited to have good coaching. I don't know what happened. It's 2023. I guess this is how it plays out, Mina. I mean, it was a good hire for a number of reasons. I think his style offense, not history with Mac Jones,

but his offense and what we've seen Mac Jones excel in, particularly in college, it makes a lot of sense. The competence argument goes a long way, for sure. This feels like a team that's due for a sort of a dead cat bounce. I still feel like they don't have enough pieces. I actually like the Juju signing a lot

and we talked about Kasicki but it just feels like they're still a wide receiver away. Given their history of drafting wide receivers, I understand why there's some trepidation about their ability, but I don't think that should stop them from doing it

because they do, I still feel like they need one more wide receiver for this offense to actually work. Yeah, everyone's convinced they're going to take a cornerback at number 10, but I think it's funny when anyone assumes that they know what the Patriots are going to do because they never leak anything and nothing ever comes out. You never have any

idea. So they'll probably trade down. That's how it's going to play out. And then my dad's going to text me. It's kind of amazing, Bill, that last year I was looking at that cornerback group. I was like, geez. And they finished as a top seven defense in the NFL. In some ways, as incompetent and dysfunctional as the offense was,

the defense just kept humming along as they do. It's a pretty good team. We'll see. There's going to be a couple of weirdo teams that end up going 11 and 6, 12 and 5 because that seems to happen every year. And I'm hoping my Pats will be one of them. All right. Me and Danny, this was really fun.

Good to see both of you. I'm glad we talked about the NFL offseason. I'm glad we made Rogers hold on for 50 minutes before we discussed him. I thought that was well played. Thanks for coming on. Thank you. Bye, Bill. When you ride transit, please

be safe. Yeah, be safe. Because what you do, others will do too. Others will do it too. So don't take shortcuts across tracks. Yeah, be safe. Because what you do, others will do too. Others will do it too. So don't take shortcuts across tracks. Don't do that. In fact, just don't walk on tracks at all. Not at all. Trains move quietly so you won't hear them coming.

You won't hear them coming. See, safe riding sets an example. Yeah, an example for me. Because safety is learned. It's learned. Okay, give it up. Give what up? Really?

Really, really. This message is brought to you by Metrolinks. Life and death were two very realistic coexisting possibilities in my life. I didn't even think I'd make it to like my 16th birthday, to be honest. I grew up being scared of who I was. Any one of us at any time can be affected by mental health and addictions. Just taking that first step makes a big difference. It's the hardest step. But CAMH was there from the beginning.

Everyone deserves better mental health care. To hear more stories of recovery, visit CAMH.ca. All right, Michael Pena is here from The Ringer. We are going to talk about the Minnesota Timberwolves. Why are we talking about them? They're 37 and 37. Their best player currently isn't playing. They're a seven seed. They're probably going to be in the playing tournament unless they work some magic. And yet I texted you and I said,

what do you want to talk about? And they're the first thing you mentioned. And I was excited because I wanted to talk about that too. What is jumping out with this Minnesota team to you other than Towns came back this week? Well, Towns coming back is a not insignificant deal for this basketball team. You watch him last night against the Hawks.

And I mean, right away, offensively, you see what they've been missing. He hits a trail three. He hits a pick and pop three. He's attacking the basket. He's throwing no-look passes to the corner. Just a mismatched nightmare for Clint Capella, for Onyeka Okungwu.

Whoever they were throwing at him, he was great. So I thought that that was a big deal. But it's interesting. I mean, they're 7-9 since the All-Star break. So you would think, right, like first-round fodder. Since they got rid of D'Angelo Russell, who I'm just not a fan of at all, I feel like the pieces make a lot of sense for this basketball team. I feel like Mike Conley has been playing tremendous basketball since they acquired him, shooting over 40% behind the three-point line. It's a big deal, obviously. His pick-and-roll chemistry with Rudy Gobert.

He's unlocked Rudy Gobert in a lot of different ways, which is kind of integral to this basketball team. Jaden McDaniels said today that he is the best defender in the NBA. I don't necessarily agree with that, but I will say that he should be a shoo-in for an all-defensive team. He's been absolutely tremendous. Everyone around the league respects him. I think his offensive leap since February 1st

or since the trade deadline, whatever cutoff you want to use arbitrarily, he's been just great offensively. He's hitting shots, hitting threes, creating stuff off the bounce for himself. So he's been a really big bright spot in a season that just has had really terrible vibes. And I feel like some pieces are clicking. I don't want to say clicking because this team is still pretty inconsistent. But with Towns coming back, with Conley in the fold, with Gobert

playing a little bit better, with Edwards, who obviously didn't play because he's got the ankle. If Edwards can get back healthy, I just see a lot of talent on this team, and it's starting to look like an even better version of the group that a lot of people thought they would be when they first acquired Gobert in the offseason. The McDaniels thing, almost 17 points a game in March, 44% from three. Gobert has basically been 16 and 11 for a month, really since the Conley trade. I'm with you. They have

some playoff players now. Guys that make sense to me in a series more than what they had last year. I thought Russell was such the wrong fit for everything they wanted to do. The thing I like about this team and why I was glad you wanted to talk about them, they finished a game yesterday.

They had Nas, Reed, and Gobert just playing together. They'll throw out lineups where you're like, wait, what's going on? I wouldn't be surprised if they were in the fourth quarter of a playoff game or in a play-in game and they had Nas, Reed, Gobert, and Towns together. They're just, the different looks they can give, I think are pretty intriguing. And I'm with you on McDaniels. Like he's been one of the 2023 revelations

like the last couple months. So I don't know. I guess the two questions for me. One is, is Edwards ready to be like the guy in a series or even a playing game. And then what is Towns going to show us this year from a hoops IQ standpoint that was lacking last year to say the least, or is he just who he is now that he has Conley now that he has like a team

that makes more sense around him and more like distinct role players, is he going to make more sense in a playoff series what do you think about towns just ceiling west well first of all i just want to say naz reed unbelievable the fact that he's a free agent i mean they're gonna have to pay jayden they're gonna have to pay anthony edwards like give naz reed a max contract he's amazing kyle anderson great role player for them Torian Prince dropped 35 on 13 shots earlier this week against the New York Knicks in the most efficient scoring performance of the season anyone's ever had.

What was he, 8 for 8 from 3? Yeah, he was... So you're right. The pieces, they just have a lot of guys this year, and they gave up a lot to get Gobert, and it was not looking good for a while. But I like how some of these role players are playing. I'm, you know, when it comes to Cat,

I think we've talked about him before, I'm more optimistic, I think, than most because I just am in awe of the offensive gifts that he has. And I go back to, I covered the Timberwolves-Grizzlies series in the first round last year. And the way that Taylor Jenkins just come in as the 2-7. They have a great starting five.

They have an identity. And he just benches Stephen Adams after game one, which a game that the Timberwolves won in Memphis. Just benches Stephen Adams, just completely throws. His rotation was totally in flux. Didn't know what he was going to do, how he was going to guard Kat. Started Xavier Tillman one game.

Started Kyle Anderson another game. He was scrambling because Carl Anthony Towns offensively creates so many different problems with his spacing at the five. I think that now I'm just interested to see. What's a bummer with his injury is just we didn't have a lot of runway to have chemistry develop between him, Gobert, Conley, etc. But defensively, this is kind of what you want, right? Offensively, if he's going to give it to you he looked great offensively in his first game back from the calf injury yeah defensively

i want to see you know can go bear pick up the slack in the areas that they brought him to fill and that's kind of the big question with this team and it's the whole the whole gambit is just you know cat's defensive limitations have been holding us back for years and can rudy fill them and so that's the question more to me than like i get the the fact that he commits atrocious offensive fouls some of his turnovers are just like peak head scratchers like i I don't, I don't know what he's thinking sometimes, but I just think that he's one of the more special offensive big men of my lifetime and create so many different matchup problems. And the pieces around him right now just make a lot of sense.

So I'm kind of bullish to be honest with you. The only thing with that is, and we said this when they made their trade, is one of the appeals to having somebody like that is what you just mentioned with the Steven Adams thing, where he's a five, but not really. And he makes you have to defend in a totally different way. And once you put a center next to him, now you lose that advantage. So I want to see, I'm going to watch them closely over the next couple of weeks, because I want to see if they figure out how to play him with Gobert and with Nas Reed because those guys are good. Nas Reed

this year, I mean, they should almost have the all NBA team for bench guys and it should just be like guys like Nas Reed. Just people like that that come off the bench and make a difference. Derek White, I guess, would be the captain. One of the things I love about Minnesota, though, the way it is right now, they're seven and Oklahoma City's eight. And that could change. All these teams are separated by a game, a half game. But Minnesota and OKC in a playing game would be one of the funniest playing games.

Two teams that are just completely different roster-wise, the way they play, just every single piece of it. You could, you have the one team that has too many big guys. Then the other team that has really no big guys. And then just trying to face off and okay. See, just trying to out athlete them and run on them and Minnesota trying to pound them.

That's going to be such an odd playing game that I can't wait. I hope we get it. Honestly, it wouldn't shock me given the Paul George injury if we see Minnesota creep up and get the six. I mean, everything is just so bunched. So that playing game would be a lot of fun though. And stylistically, you're absolutely right. Like the bigs versus the small, like, you know, you could throw Jaden McDaniels on Shay and have Rudy camping out in the paint.

And, you know, Oklahoma city, I don't know how many threes Lou Dort is going to hit. I don't know how many threes Jalen Williams. I love J Dub. One of my favorite players to watch this season. I don't know how many threes that team is going to be hitting Josh Giddy,

et cetera. So I would probably, Josh Giddey, et cetera. So I would probably be excited. Josh Giddey is like Evan Mobley. He's open for a reason with everybody five feet off him. I heard the OKC announcer the other day screaming about the Dorcher Chamber, which I hadn't heard before. Did you hear that? I did not, but I think I like it. It was the Kawhi Leonard play when Kawhi Leonard didn't score in the last play.

Dort was guarding him, and the announcer was like, he put him in the torture chamber! I was like, this is great. I'm in on this OKC team. Fun playoff team. The other one that would be fun for Minnesota to play in the playing game is the Lakers. Because now it's like just, you know,

assuming LeBron's back, now it's like, you know, a big team against a big team. And, um, I don't even know who the advantage would be. And they're claiming LeBron's going to come back and maybe be back for the last week of the season. I don't know what to believe on that front. I find it hard to believe he could just come back and be at the same level right away. The Clippers thing, you know, typical, terrible Cl Clippers bad luck. We should have known something terrible was going to happen. But actually, the clip was so bad. I was amazed it was only a sprained knee. You just think like, oh my God, he blew out every ligament in his knee. We'll never see him again. And instead, it's like, ah, should be back two, three weeks. They have enough depth to withstand

it and stay in the playing picture, but not ideal. And I was liking them as a possible sleeper because I went to that Warriors game last week and I was like, there's a lot here. I can talk myself into this team in a weird conference, but now I don't know. And that's where I am basically on every team in the West where I'm either like, I don't know, or I'm like, I'm out and I'm not in on anybody. Who are you in on in the West where I'm either like, I don't know, or I'm like, I'm out and I'm not in on anybody. Who are you in on in the West at this point? That's a great question. Um, I like Denver. I like Yoko. I think they've, they've been playing, you know, they had that really rough patch,

uh, over the past couple of weeks, but I think they've bounced back their win against the wizards. Granted it's against the Wizards, but Jokic is starting to look a little bit more aggressive offensively as a scorer, which is kind of what I've wanted to see from him for the past couple weeks. Their big win against the Nets in Brooklyn.

To be honest with you, the Paul George injury is just... It's just such a critical stretch here for Russell Westbrook. I think Kawhi has obviously been playing great, but the Norm Powell injury as well really is... They're going to need a lot out of Russ. Bones Highland is probably going to enter the rotation pretty soon.

So I don't know. They probably are cursed as an organization. I think that that is solidified. We don't need the probability there, Michael. That team is cursed. I wrote a column about it in 2009, and 14 things have happened since that column. So that's tough with the Clippers.

I don't know. I want to see the Phoenix Suns play basketball with a healthy roster. That would be a lot of fun. They're on a tailspin right now that's not looking great, but that's what happens when you trade for KD

and you give up your two best wings and you have no one. You're just playing Josh Akogi and Torrey Craig big minutes. So, you know, I called into Termini and Eddie Johnson, friends of the program, on Monday after that

Suns loss on Sunday. And I was like, I think the Suns should be way more concerned about even when Durant comes back because there's just a lot of mediocrity on that roster, you know, and you think like you trade all that stuff for Katie,

but you also gave up like your two wings who could really guard people and then not hurt you on the other end. And you'd say, Oh, well, Wayne, right. He can defend and Okoji, but I,

Tori Craig, who can't defend. Um, but I just, it's a lot of like 10th, 11th, 12th men all of a sudden playing real minutes for them. And I just wonder in this day and age where the league is so much deeper, can that model of just, well, we have our four guys and then we patch together the rest of the

team and that was able to get us to the conference finals or whatever. I don't know if that model is going to work this year because I think the league is too deep. So the wings really jumped out to me on Sunday when I watched them or Monday, whenever that was. I just, I don't know. You've a lot of C minuses. And I don't think people realize it yet. We saw last year why they lost was the Dallas Mavericks were hunting Chris Paul over and over again and

chris paul is you know right now one of their one of their best on ball defenders so that's like yeah they're gonna play lineups with terrence ross in them right what are we doing here so they're gonna get hunted i'm not optimistic defensively that their defense has just been really bad and i think they really miss mHale. They really miss Cam Johnson. They're going to need a lot out of Kevin Durant, who will come back as their best defender, let alone their best offensive player. And that's a crucial point because the reason that injury was so untimely on top of the fact that he's just never played with these guys

is they actually really need his defense. And he's now had two lower body injuries over the course of the year that he's come back from. And I don't know, it would, uh, it would make me a little nervous. I, speaking of the hunting, you made me think of the Miami Knicks game where Miami was like, all right, this Jalen Brunson thing has gone far enough. We're just hunting the living shit out of you in this game. And it worked. And it was, it made me wonder like in that Cleveland Knicks matchup, like that Brunson thing, we haven't seen anyone totally exploit that.

And I wonder if that's going to happen. Did you lose a little luster with Sacramento? After that Celtics ass kicking, or was that just an unusually good Celtics game? Well, they didn't have MVP candidate, Kevin Herter on the floor for that one. So that was tough.

Just an absolutely integral part of everything that they do in all seriousness. I thought they missed him. I don't know. I really appreciated and am enjoying the Light the Beam experience. When it comes to winning playoff games winning a playoff series their defense has just consistently been bad all season long and um i love so much of what they do how they play offensively the pace i think that could carry over sabonis all nba third team all nba lock amazing season unstoppable i mean in that celtics game like they had to take All-NBA, third-team All-NBA lock. Amazing season. Unstoppable.

I mean, in that Celtics game, they had to take Rob Williams off. I felt bad for Rob Williams, frankly. He just was getting pulverized. So the defense is a concern, I think, with Sacramento. You realize we could have Sacramento Golden State as our 3-6, which I'm positive has never happened before. They're maybe, what, an hour away from each other?

I don't know what highway that is. Maybe it's the 5, the i5 series. But you also have Vivek. He used to be a part owner of the Warriors. Goes by as the Kings. There's a lot of fun storylines with that. And I also think the Warriors fans will potentially travel a little bit for that one too. So the games, we were in a situation where we could have, you know, Phoenix Clippers and we could have Sacramento go and state, and then we

could get that Memphis, Minnesota rematch and then Denver and the Lakers or Denver. Okay. See the team that I really, I can't believe I'm saying this because Luca is one of the five best guys in the league, but I just don't want to watch Dallas anymore. I'm good with them for the year. I'm with you. I want to reboot. I'm with you.

They're like a TV show where the season just didn't work. And we know that a couple cast members need to leave and they got to reboot and try to reinvigorate themselves somehow. I just don't like watching them. So you're with me?

Yeah, I was out once they traded for Kyrie Irving. Speaking of defense, they just can't guard anybody. The fact that they're petitioning their loss against the Warriors last night on that weird

call, whatever, in the third quarter, it's like, yo, come on. Also, they were down five with five seconds left. They hit a three at the buzzer to make it a two-point game. So you can't really say, oh, we would have lost. No, it didn't make the difference. That game was over. Yeah, I'm tired of watching them.

I would rather see Utah on the play-in than Dallas. Utah's fun. Walker Kessler, the new Rudy Gobert. Fun thing to watch. Hey, before we go, who do you have on that other first-team O-N-B-A

guard slot with Luka? If you had to pick, the choices would be SGA, John Morant, just coming back, Donovan Mitchell,

you could have. Dame on a crap team. Who would you have? James Harden, maybe? I'm going Dame. Dame time. Okay. Yeah.

Here's the case. Top 75 player who's having the best season of his career. Fifth highest usage in the league. 64.5 true shooting. He's averaging 32, seven and five hit a 71 point game. He's plus one Oh five for the season on a crappy team. That's been banged up for months.

No, Anthony Simons, no use of Nerkich, no Jeremy Grant. When he's on the court, they're good. He's making 58% of his twos, which is like way above his previous career high

so like he almost has uh also 100 more total assists than sga who's it's kind of like a coin flip between sga and him honestly like i i absolutely love the season shake alexander has had and he's playing in a more competitive situation. And that game against the game where Paul George got hurt, like had had like playoff vibes to me in the fourth quarter. And SGA was unstoppable. Like, you know,

the clubbers threw Kawhi on him. He was hunting Eric Gordon. Who's a pretty good defender. Didn't matter. SGA just gets into the paint against anybody. They were small. Tyler was small in that game down the stretch, which I thought could have been a mistake because when you're playing that team,

you just got to try to protect the paint as best you can with size, I think. I understood what he was doing. But SGA is just amazing too. But Dame, the season Dame has had is just like, you had a really great conversation with Rosillo recently about the stats and how out of whack they are but it's like I still look at Dame stats and like this I don't care about like it's not like he has the greatest spacing around him he's just been amazing like his shot making is just incredible um the defense is the defense you

know what are you going to do about it uh but he's been minute by minute one of the best offensive players in the entire league this season and it's a shame that they weren't able to be more competitive and he might get shut down uh we'll see what happens but he's just been when i think about like really ridiculous performances this season and really memorable moments, like Dame is at the center of so many of them. So he's, he's got to get my spot.

That's a really good case. He's only played 58 games. Shea's played 61, but Shea's going to be playing down the stretch because they said, fuck it. They're going for it. And it seems like, as you said,

it seems like Portland's going to shut down Dame pretty soon, although they did win last night. I think he would have to play the rest of the games to get first team because you got to get to at least 60, I think, to be in a conversation this year with how deep the guards are.

I'm struggling because I think I have to have Mitchell at least 13 because I want to get one of the Cavs on there. The Cavs have been one of the best stories of the year and they're one of the top six teams. And you just start doing all the math and even Harden getting hurt and missing a couple games, you wonder, that could swing it because there's seven guards for six spots. And then there's the thing we talked about with Logan on Tuesday's pod about this Jalen Brown. If he's eligible forward, he's going to get the six forward spot, which has huge ramifications for the Celtics for their salary cap going

forward and all that stuff. If he's eligible to guard at guard, he has no chance because the guards are way, way, way too deep. But, um, I think SGA could grab that first team over the next two weeks.

So if OKC can continue to win games like they won Tuesday and go toe to toe with some of these teams with really an unusually young kind of odd team, right? Like who even leads their team in rebounds? It's, oh, Josh Giddey, 7.8. Like Holmgren was supposed to be on this team and he's not. So it's just this weird, small ball athletic, you know, hodgepodge team where SGA down the stretch can just carry them. Um, so I, I think he could make it, but it's a really good battle. You make a good point on Dame. Like the legacy stuff should matter with this stuff too. Um, even though we're judging the season, I get it. But like when it's a great player having a great season, you got to take that tiny bit more seriously.

So real quick, would you not even consider Steph Curry for any of the all NBA teams, given how many minutes and how many games? I think he's only at 48 with eight games to go. But if you really dig into his numbers, Bill, like he's just the best player. He's just Steph Curry. I need to get to 55.

That's just that I've made that rule a while ago. And that's where 55 is at least two thirds of the season. Okay. I remember Durant yelling at me about this once he thought that was stupid. He's like the best players are the best players. What does it matter how good people get hurt? But especially in a season like this, I'd want to see him 54, 55 would probably be the cutoff, but he's probably going to get there the rest of the way. And then, you know, then that Mitchell spot, I think becomes vulnerable. Cause you could say 55 games of Steph was just better than 75 games of Mitchell or Harden.

Harden wouldn't be the other spot that I think would be vulnerable. It's loaded though. I mean, it really is. You could say that the, there's probably nine guards that are the top 20 players in the league right now. It's eight or nine guards.

Um, pretty, pretty easily you would pencil that in. And I don't know. I feel bad for Curry too because that's such a weird team. He's such an outsized importance to them. Everything seems to revolve around what cuts he's making and the spacing that he gives them.

All right, 20 seconds. Jalen Brown stuff last two weeks. Overblown, underblown, or properly blown? I think properly blown that's how i'll be honest with you i mean you talk to people around the celtics all season long and they're kind of like we really hope he gets the super max so you know uh we'll see And then obviously he had the quotes that he gave Logan and that's that piece, that wonderful piece. So I don't know what he's going to do.

I don't know if he knows what he's going to do, but everyone on that team right now is focused on winning the title. And that could also happen. And if they win the title, obviously that changes the calculus. So who knows? But I think it's a real story for sure. Yeah,

I agree. All right. Michael Pena, you have a real story for sure. Yeah, I agree. All right. Michael Pena, you have a big piece coming up. I won't spoil it, but I'm excited to read it. Good to see you. We can hear you on the Ringer NBA show as well. Thanks for coming on. Thanks, Bill.

All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Mina and Danny and Michael. And thanks to Kyle Creighton and Steve Cerruti for producing as well. I will see you on this feed on Sunday night with Rosillo. Don't forget Prestige TV podcast right after succession ends. Me and Joanna and Sean breaking it down. See you then. I don't have feelings within

On the wayside On the first side of the river I don't have feelings within