The Bill Simmons Podcast - NBA 10-Game Awards and Matt Damon Returns (the Sequel!) | The Bill Simmons Podcast

Episode Date: November 13, 2019

HBO and The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Kevin O’Connor to talk NBA awards after 10 games including MVP, ROTY, COTY, Most Improved, Most Hopeless Team, and more (1:50). Then Bill sits down with Matt Damon to talk 'Ocean’s,' 'Rounders,' NBA, NFL, MLB, his new film 'Ford v Ferrari,' feuding with Jimmy Kimmel, and more (53:25). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's waiting for you. Check it out. Coming up, we have a great podcast today. Kevin O'Connor is going to come on to talk about the 10 Game NBA Awards. And then, back by popular demand, the one, the only, Matt how we were able to book him. From the mismatch on the Ringer NBA show, Kevin O'Connor. What's going on, Bill? I'm here to talk to Devin Booker.

Yeah, you got to throw Devin Booker in my face. We get to talk about the 8-1 Celtics. We're taping this on a Tuesday afternoon. But that's not the reason you're here. We're going to do the 10-game awards. There's been 10 games. It's way too early. These are overreactions, but it's also fun to just put the league

at least in a little bit of perspective right now. MVP for me is just two people through 10 games. I have Giannis and I have Luka. And I don't really think there's a third candidate yet. Prove me wrong. Who do you have? So you wouldn't have LeBron in there? No.

You wouldn't have Kawhi? Because of the load management? No. I think they're in the mix, but those were the two that jumped out to me. Well, I mean, with Giannis, he's the guy. Giannis is the guy. It's clearly he's the guy. He has more points than last season, more rebounds, more block shots, more steals, more assisted passes. And he's doing it with, you know, at as good scoring efficiency with worse circumstances,

no Brogdon and now no Middleton moving forward. Yeah. And a system that teams have known for a year now. And he's still producing at an even higher level. So he's the guy right now. And with Luka, I think he's already a top 10 player in the NBA. But I haven't heard a lot of talk about him being an MVP candidate. So what is the case for him to be second right now for you? Their offense is really good. And he's the only reason.

Because KP has not been. I think they're number one offensively. He's averaging a 28, 10, and 9. They've got really nothing from Porzingis yet compared to. He's like,

he's playing like a 6'5 wing spotting up from 3 right now. Yeah, but okay. Isn't that kind of how you should be using them if you're Dallas? There's all these different. Dallas is number one on offense right now for what it's worth.

There's all these different stats about when you just put him 24 feet away from the basket, he's devastating. And it always seems like they're trying to force feed him and make sure he's involved. And it's like, dude, you have your offense. Run everything through Luca. Have Porzingis. He's a stretch five. And then just put shooters around him and nobody's stopping him

and you're right like that's a big part of it and that's what I talked to you know Mark Cuban about when I was in Dallas through the preseason story on the Mavericks him and Donnie Nelson

both said one of the reasons behind having the floor spacers so far away from the three point line is just because of the impact it makes on the rest of the team higher points per shot

you know on cuts on pull ups on drives, driving kicks. And so there's value in Porzingis just being a spot-up shooter out there. But as we saw

with Boston's loss to Dallas, he still has not gotten to the level. Boston's beating of Dallas. Oh, sorry. I misspoke. You had to correct it. That was a big comeback win

by the Souths. Dallas's loss. Yeah. Porzingis still cannot beat smaller players on the post. And then Marcus Smart on him. Marcus Smart's loss. Yeah. Poor Zingus still cannot beat smaller players on the post. And then Marcus Smart on him. Marcus Smart's awesome. Marcus Smart, the Celtics' best big...

Haley wrote about this for the Reign a couple days ago. He's literally their best big man defender. I think Haley undersold Marcus Smart on offense, though, with the pick-and-roll playmaking and all that. But the defense, I mean, Haley's right. He is a defensive wizard on the end of the floor. And when I talked to KP during Mavs preseason, he brought up Marcus Smart as a guy

who has effectively stopped him in the post before. And KP said, you know, now I'm better at beating those smaller players. And he hasn't been though. I think for Dallas to be at the level this team can be, like Luka already, I agree, is an MVP candidate. I think he's a top 10 player in the league already at 20. But Porzingis, for them to really elevate in the playoffs

when beating mismatches is a necessity, and maybe you're putting two guys on the ball against Luka, KP's going to have to be somebody who can beat those smaller players on mismatches. Because right now, teams are just comfortable putting smaller guys on them. Boston could put Smart on them. They can put Tatum on them. They can put any of their smaller guys.

There's no reason for any team to feel like they have to put a larger player on him. And Porzingis needs to change that. That's a failure on him. Because with his size, he should be able to go six feet from the basket on one of the blocks and just shoot a jump hook over anyone who's 6'3". And if he can't do that at this point, he's got to reevaluate stuff. But, I mean, look, he missed, what, 20 months? I'm not going to get too bent out of shape about how he's looked so far.

And defensively, he's still 7'3", and knows how to put his hands up, and it's not like he's been bad. Not at all. No, he's still been an overall good player for Dallas. I just feel like they have tapped into very little of that combination from the games I've seen. They've been one of my favorite league pass teams. I just feel like they have tapped into very little of that combination from the games I've seen. They've been one of my favorite league pass teams. I'm with you.

Giannis, 30-14-7. Talked about him on the BS pod on Thursday. He has made the leap up. Now Middleton's out for a month. No Brogdon this year, and it hasn't mattered. It hasn't affected his stats. He passes the eye test, all this stuff. And he's been more of a threat from three, too.

Ever since around last Christmas, he's been 30-plus percent from three on catch Ever since around last Christmas, he's been, you know, 30 plus percent from three on catch and shoot and dribble jumpers. So he's even a bit more of a threat than he was and that we sometimes

perceive him as. So I wonder how maybe that changes things for him moving forward if that shot keeps progressing. It's unbelievable to see. He is the best day-to-day guy in the league.

I think Kawhi is the guy who'd won the fourth quarter. And I think LeBron is probably the best high ceiling game-to-game guy. Would be where I've landed on that. Is there anybody else that belongs in that MVP conversation that we haven't mentioned? Nah, well, how many games has Zabit played? He's yet to get off to what, a 62 game pace or whatever? Something like that.

I don't think so. I think because if you go through all the usual suspects, a lot of Jokic hasn't really gotten going yet and he would be the other guy

I would watch out for. The Celtics and Utah have been very kind of full team kind of stuff. There's no like breakout MVP guy. Is there a

case in the top five? I mean, how about a Siakam? I was going to say another young guy. Siakam was the other one. It's another one of those things

where all NBA forwards this year, assuming we don't have injuries, is just going to be brutal. Like Siakam's going to end up being like a third team on the NBA. We need more than three teams.

Yeah, we do. And where do you put Lucas? Is he a guard or a forward? Because technically he's a forward, right? You're touching on the ultimate issue here. It's like,

let's just get rid of the positions. Get rid of them. It's a positionless's just get rid of the positions. Yeah. Get rid of them. It's a positionless game today. Who cares what it means for history with, you know, traditional basketball with comparing two guards, you know, six guards and six forwards and one center. The fact is, is that the game has changed.

And I think at this point in the league moving forward, there's no way it's ever going to go back to this traditional small 6-1 guard slot into that All-NBA slot. Why is LeBron listed as a forward but not a guard, a quote-unquote guard, when he has effectively always been a playmaker? But Ben Simmons is listed as a point guard in last year's All-NBA vote. And that hurt Simmons, I thought, because of guard was so loaded last year. I actually have a net as solution for this. I think it should be the pure point guard like Dame, Lillard, Kemba, Kyrie. So like a PG on there.

PG. PG for point guard, okay. And then a center. And then three perimeter spots. And I don't think it has to matter where they play. This might be a silly question, but what is a point guard? I mean, is LeBron a point guard? Is Luka a point guard?

I'm almost thinking more like height, like small, big. But yeah, you're right. Maybe it's just before perimeter people. Is Giannis a big, or is he a perimeter? I don't know. Is he a perimeter player? Giannis is honestly a center.

Kind of. He does play a center. He's probably the tallest guy in that team. Maybe he has to be some sort of mathematical. This is like over-complicating things. But, you know, if you take

share of shots in the paint or around the rim, then you're considered a center. Like a dunk percentage. Yeah, like Giannis would be therefore considered a player.

But then that's a whole, I think it's overly complicating. I think it would just be positional. But that's not a bad idea if layups and dunks were over a certain percentage

of the number of field goals you take, you're probably a low post player or somebody who's around the rim. All right. So we both have Giannis. For rookie, man, this is a brutal

rookie class so far. This is, the following is true. John Morant leads the rookies in scoring. Oh boy. And the freaking Warriors guy. Eric Paschal, baby.

Who you didn't go all the way in on on the draft guide, but you acknowledged and liked him. Yeah. But I feel like this could have been a huge win for you. Sure. But you know,

there's the flaws and the age as well with this game. And he's fallen into a, think about the situation he fell into. With Golden State, a team that has typically done a pretty good

job at utilizing talents like him floor spacing bigs somebody who plays hard you know a good smart player but then like all these guys get hurt and there's all this opportunity to for him to put up big numbers early i mean it's been a good opportunity for him there and one guy that i think we have to mention jaw for what it's, I think is rookie of the year so far. How about PJ Washington on Charlotte? Starting for them. How about Charlotte? Charlotte's kind of fun to watch.

Devontae Graham. How about the Cody Zeller resurgence? Yeah, the whole team, really. I think with PJ Washington, though, he's been a pretty good two-way player for them. Solid on defense. I agree. Rim running, shooting from three,

passing the ball well. He got better from year one to year two at Kentucky, especially as a shooter. And then he's made another leap, year two in Kentucky to year one in the NBA. And I've been really, really impressed by him. My guy Malik Monk still hasn't gotten going. I'm worried.

You're worried, officially. I'm worried. I think he's at the point now where you try to steal him if you're another team. He's like 28% from three this year. How much are you giving up? Are we talking like a second round pick? What are you investing in him?

He feels very Rockets-y to me. Hmm. Hey, Malik, stand in the corner. Interesting. I mean, the Rockets were taping this Tuesday afternoon. They're starting Ben McElmore. Oh, boy. Eric Gordon.

There's news today that he'll be out. Yeah, tough. All right. So we both have jaw. Rough rookie season so far. If you spent a lot of money on rookie cards. Zion hopefully will come back. Zion not only murdered the Pelican season,

but murdered both networks because they were showing a ton of Pelican games early and it's like, oh, the Pelicans are down 18 again. If zion comes back so he was out when that injury was announced six to eight weeks if he comes back and puts up monster numbers like he did in preseason are we gonna have another mb versus brogdon rookie of the year race where mb is clearly putting up the better numbers but brogdon is a guy who's having a good year but played way more games and ends up winning the award or is this going to be like you know atoning for the era and voting Brogdon

over Embiid with Zion potentially still stealing the award playing like 50 games well Ja isn't knocking out of the park the award he's leaving the door open for a 60 game Zion season but and the Memphis hasn't

been doing great either so I think it's wide open Zion can still win it I think don't count out my guy Tyler Hero we'll see

he's lingering he's got competition from his teammate none oh yeah you're right none how old is he 24? something like that yeah

you know it's funny the race for rookie of the year is not super inspiring, but there's a lot of impressive young rookies. Just none that are standing out like you hope for from a Zion. Yeah, there's like 15, 16 guys that I like. We haven't even mentioned Thibel, the master of the universe.

I wish he could score. Whose minutes are dropping for some reason. I really wish he could score, Bill. He can't score. The problem is you can't play him and Simmons together. I mean, there's a whole lot of issues in Philly. Oh.

I mean, from a... Should we go? Maybe we should just jump to most concerning subplot. I have Philadelphia for that. All right, what do you got? So I had for most concerning subplot Zion and the Hornets

we've already talked about. Houston's health, which is already dangerous. Oh, yeah, that's scary. Harden's going to have to shoot like 30 shots a game. Yeah, and you think of the Miles the last two years, too. I'm just throwing this in there, and the only person I've seen who's noticed it other than myself was Rosillo.

Maybe you've noticed it, too, but if you tweeted about it, I missed it. John Morant really scares me how fucking crazy he plays. Somebody needs to have a talk with him. I feel like he's going to get hurt with these drives. It reminds me of young Derrick Rose, where Derrick Rose was just so balls to the wall at all times. And Westbrook was like this too. Westbrook never really ended up getting hurt.

He's had a lot of knee surgeries though. He has. With Jots, like, dude, you don't have to dunk over every center that's in your way. Like, pick your spots. I just worry that he's going to get hurt. I mean, that fall he had last week or the week before. That was terrifying. I mean, if you freeze frame that at the moment he fell,

you would think like something really, really horrible just happened. Yeah. Thankfully, he's still on the court, but. I mean, that's one of the things that makes him so much fun to watch. But man, I hope he learns to pick his spots. So the other one, most concerning subplot. Tell me why you're worried about Philly. So with Philly, I picked them to represent the Eastern Conference in the finals this year.

And I have been totally underwhelmed by them so far this season for a number of reasons. For one, most obviously, Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons do not look any better. Embiid still does not look like he has gotten in significantly better shape, still looks fatigued out there. Ben Simmons still can't shoot or finish around the rim with his left hand. And then they don't have a reliable shot creator. Josh Richardson was the guy who could have become that and did receive a little bit of opportunity in preseason to be that.

He has not made a leap as a ball handler or as a creator. And then I think there's something wrong with Brett Brown's system. This team obviously doesn't have a ton of spacing. Horford leads the team in three-point attempts, but far too often, are they not even spacing the floor from outside?

You'll see Horford or Harris around the baseline. You'll see Harris passing on open three-point attempts. It's just really weird. And that's negatively impacting their spacing, which is leading to them turning the ball over a lot. And they lead the league right now in turnovers per game. And that is then, of course, affecting their defense. And on the defensive end of the floor, opponents are i think 39 percent from three against them so there's some bad luck on their side of their defense being about average so far but part of that is a symptom of the

offense turning the ball over so much leading to more transition and part of that is just the team not playing at their maximum capabilities on the defensive end. So overall, there just seems like there's something fundamentally wrong on both ends. And some of the concerns that people had about this weird fit, all these big guys, is already starting to pop up. And yet they're 6-3. And yet they're 6-3.

But I watched a lot of the- But they're a team with championship aspirations, though. And I'm not sure they are a championship team right now. I watched that Suns-Sixers game, which was a telling game because Embiid didn't play and that's a team they should beat, let's be honest. What I noticed, especially like

there's about three minutes left and it was a tie game, the crowd was into it, Booker's playing well. Philly didn't have that one guy when you talked about a creator, just that dude is like, I got this guys. Last year in those spots, it was Jimmy Butler. Whether he's the guy you want, if you're trying to actually win the title,

I don't know, but he was the guy who'd be like, I got this. And they would run the offense through him or they would run a play for him or whatever. And it makes me think that one of two things, you mentioned the coaching has been, I thought they should have gotten rid of Brett Brown last year that's one move they could make the other one is I still feel like they always knew they were one trade away with this team and they have that Harris contract is very trade friendly so is Josh Richardson are we sure it's trade friendly I mean how many teams want to pay Harris $28 million? Is that what his salary is this year? Oh my God. I didn't realize it was that high. It's $28 million this year?

Harris this season is getting paid $32.7 million. I'm sorry. I noticed. Oh my God. I understood. It's $32.7. I rescind the word trade-friendly. Yeah.

Oh man. $32.7, $34.3, $35.9, $37.6, and trade friendly. Yeah. Oh man. 32, seven, 34, three, 35, nine, 37, six, and 39 too.

Yeah. That is not trade friendly. Well, and that's, that's, that's really like sort of the subplot I have in mind with Philadelphia. If this doesn't work, then what you don't have cap flexibility moving forward.

It's hard to see tradable pieces on this roster. I'm not sure how many teams would want to trade for Harris. I'm not sure how many teams would want to trade for Al Horford at his age. Do you want to trade a Ben Simmons or a Joe Elamid? Probably not. Is it Richardson that you're flipping? Well, how much value does he have?

I don't know what this team does. Sorry, Chris Paul. You might be on to something. I mean maybe it is somebody like Chris Paul because I. Chris Paul. You might be onto something. I mean, maybe it is somebody like Chris Paul because they need that perimeter creator. So Chris Paul is 38.5 this year, 41 next year,

and 44 a year after. It's not like that much worse than the Harris contract. How did I not know the Harris contract was that bad? It's crazy. Man, they snuck that one by me. Harris is a solid player, but he's getting paid like a superstar. And he doesn't get used like a star.

He gets used like the fourth best guy on a team, which he is. With Philly, man, like I said, I picked them to represent the East in the finals. And I don't feel good about that right now. So Simmons would be the other one you would think about. Yeah, I would definitely think about moving him. But that one can't happen for a while because he just signed the extension sure but the I mean as soon as you can as soon as something makes sense but again like it's the same question though like how much value would he have all right what's the most you would trade for Ben Simmons if

you were updating your trade value column like what is the most you would trade for Ben Simmons I'd be scared i'm with you it doesn't the first game of the season it was you watch it and you go oh yeah oh he made a leap and then it was gone i mean all of that the phony videos this summer of him shooting threes and now he won't even spot up in the corner it's really a joke chris paul for tobias harris solves a lot of problems for both teams yeah Chris Paul CA client

Joel Embiid CA client interesting yeah you might be on to something here Bill let's go to I kind of like that idea the more I'm thinking about it here

I kind of like it well if you're OKC you're locked in you're all in you're doing that you're giving up some picks to get rid of Chris Paul totally yeah

I think maybe give it one pick or something like that. Got Shea Gilgis. Yeah. Biggest leap. Speaking of Shea Gilgis. That's a good one for that. Is it Gilgis or Gilgis?

Gilgis. Gilgis, Alexander. Gilgis. Gilgis, Alexander. Gilgis. Just say Shea or SGA. That solves all your problems. I can't believe

how many times I've screwed this up when I watched the freaking Thunder Games. Just say Shea. Shea, you know. That solves all your problems. I can't believe how many times I've screwed this up when I watched the freaking Thunder game. Just say Shea. Shea. Shea, you know. What is it again, Kyle?

Isn't it Shea? No, Shea. It's Shea. No, it's not. I thought it was S-H-A-R. I've heard it pronounced but it's Gilgis. It's Shea, Gilgis,

Alexander. Well, our next category is Biggest Leap. He's in there because I did not expect his ability to play both guard positions like he has

and to play off the ball. It was all stuff that I did not see coming. For what it's worth, I'm happy. I know a lot of people are like, get Chris Paul out of there. Put the ball in Shea's hands.

It's like, well, why not have him develop in a multi-ball handler system? Because he's not going to be your James Harden. He's going to be your guy that is handling the ball amongst other players in an ideal world

for OKC. So I think it's a good thing for him to develop behind this ball. The bummer for them is how bad their wings are. They traded Grant for tax relief. I'm not saying he would have solved all the problems, but they probably have the worst set of wings in the league other than Gallo, who's not even necessarily a wing.

Gallo could get something good for them at some point. Yeah, he's a trade piece. Portland? I'd be all after Gallo, who's not even necessarily a wing. Gallo could get something good for them at some point. Yeah, he's a trade piece. Portland, I'd be all after Gallo. So biggest leaps. Here's what I have. Tell me if you would add anything. I got Luka and Siakam becoming MVP candidates, I think is one. I'm stunned by Brogdon.

I don't know if he can stay healthy. But Brogdon being a number one guy who knows what to do at the end of games. And you think like, man, if Philly had signed him, I don't know, they probably couldn't have worked it out with the salary, but they had signed him instead of Tobias Harris. And you just flip those two. They would be in such better shape. But man, that guy's an assassin in these fourth quarters.

He's such a good decision maker. Yeah. It's like he knows when to pick his spots. He knows when to pass. I think that is probably the most underrated loss of the summer. I mean, obviously a lot of stars change teams and everything, but Milwaukee letting Brogdon go instead of paying him and paying the luxury tax. When we look back at this team, you know, two, three years from now, depending on what Giannis decides to do, that could be the decision that

we look at as a turning point. And maybe it won't be. Maybe Milwaukee gets to the finals and wins it all this year. But that decision was such a significant risk for that franchise to let him go, especially with what we're seeing right now. In regards to Siakam, though... One last thing. They're 6-4 now. And now there was news today Oladipo was going to be starting

to work out in the G League and stuff. That's right. There was a moment when they were like 3-4, 2-4, whatever they were. And they stuff. That's right. There was a moment when they were like three and four, two and four, whatever they were, and they didn't seem that happy. It was a weird team. We had no idea when Oladipo was coming back where it really did seem conceivable that they were just going to have a bad season.

But now they've fixed it, it seems like. There were the rumblings about unhappiness. Treats. Yeah, and at this point, it seems like things have turned around. It can happen quickly. And so, you know, good for Indiana at this point. One thing that maybe has helped is Sabonis andis and Turner not being forced to play together right now.

So that'll be something to monitor when Turner eventually is back. Or possibly in the trade block. Siakam, what do you got? Siakam, I think with him, I'm just, I'm blown away just of how good Toronto still is with him taking the sleep. And so much of it, I think there's a credit to Nick Nurse here for empowering him as a player and obviously to Siakam for the improvements he's made. But so far this season, over half of his possessions have been finished using the pick and roll, isolations, or post-ups.

Last season, it was about a third of his possessions. And one stat that I think really illustrates the difference this year is last season, he held the ball for about 2.5 minutes per game, which was comparable to guys like Joe Ingles and Marcus Smart, secondary, or sometimes the third ball handler on your team. But this season, he's possessing the ball for 4.2 minutes per game,

equivalent to Jimmy Butler, CJ McCollum. What are these fancy stats you have, KFC? From NBA.com. Ball holding? Ball holding? Is that it? Yeah, CJ McCollum. What are these fancy stats you have, KFC? From NBA.com. Ball holding? Ball holding? Is that it? Yeah, possessing the ball. Possessing the ball.

That's now a stat. Yes, yeah. That's a good stat. Possession time. Yeah. And I'm just fascinated by how he's increased his touches and possession time and responsibility as a creator, as a playmaker, as a scorer.

And he's doing just as well as last season with this new role. And he's probably only going to continue to get better as he keeps growing like he always has. It's amazing. So Kyrie's possession time is like 22 minutes a game. I'll pull it open. It's 20 seconds per play.

It's probably obscene. The other biggest leap I have, assist leader LeBron James. Have you noticed he's two assists above everybody? He's got 11 assists a game. Me and Chris Vernon did a preseason predictions

thing where we're making these silly predictions. And I originally was going to say LeBron's going to lead the NBA in assists for the first time. I was like that's not that doesn't feel hot enough. I'm going to go Ja Morant.

You know and I was wrong. You know Ja won't be averaging a five. LeBron though he very well could. He very well could this year with the amount of

playmaking that he's putting put on his shoulders this season. Well it's I actually think that would have been a hot take if you had predicted that. Interesting.

Eleven's a lot. I mean, look, preseason numbers you can't read into too much. But I do think there's some value in looking at per 36 in preseason to get an idea of what a guy might do during the regular season. And LeBron did put up pretty unbelievable preseason assist numbers. You know who's second? Who's that? Our guy.

We were voices crying in the wilderness. Luka Doncic. Oh, of course. Luka Fortesworth leads the NBA in possession time. 9.4 minutes. Kyrie down at 6.7 minutes per game. 6.7. That seems low.

Luka's one rebound away from averaging a 30-10-10 right now. Just want to point that out. We're going to take a quick break. Come back with more. Hey, for this holiday season, immerse yourself in all your favorite holiday classics with a new home theater system from Sonos. Turn it on in the Sonos app.

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wanted to also play the basketball in the other Sonos system I had. So I double Sonos-ed it. Yeah, you can do those things. Really easy to hook. You pull it out of the box, hook it up to your Wi-Fi system. I can't believe it took me less than 10 minutes. Go to Sonos.com to learn more and complete your holiday shopping. Back to KFC. Okay, so putting a bow on that topic

we just talked about. Biggest leap. I agree with that. I think it's Siakam because especially after the playoffs last year when he really seemed scared at some of those games. The transformation, it's almost like Kawhi

gave him his secret sauce when he left. Here, take this. I was drinking it during the playoffs. It's awesome to see. Coaching job, Brad Stevens, Nick Nurse. Who else would you have? Monty Williams, Phoenix. I think the way Phoenix is playing, and this is partially a front office and coaching thing there but better ball movement they're better spacing

more discipline on defense they're basically just collapsing into the paint preventing penetration and forcing teams to shoot threes yeah or a renegade jumpers and part again it's the opposite of what we talked about earlier in regards to Philly, which has had some bad luck. Phoenix has had some good luck with teams not shooting threes well against them. But with Phoenix this year,

so much comes down to my guy, Devin Booker. Your guy. Devin Booker has been awesome. You never gave up on him. You told me he could be the number one guy in a good team.

He looks awesome. He looks great. I have one stat that I think illustrates the change in Booker. That he has a winning record for the first time in four years? Sure, yes. That's true, and he might have a chance at the playoffs. We'll see. Maybe slip in as a 7 or an 8 seed.

But another, you know, a touch passing stat from NBA.com. Booker last season made 45 passes per game and he received 67 passes per game. This year, that's down to 29 passes made per game and he's making 45 passes per game. And I bring that up because he's putting up near equal raw numbers, 25 points, shooting the hell out of the ball.

But he's doing that without touching the ball as often, passing the balls off and receiving the ball as often. And last year and in past years, the number one critique of him was he's a good stats, bad team player. He's a ball hog. He won't give it up. He can't play with other players. Well, here we are. Monty Williams has installed a system and the Suns added Ricky Rubio with a system that emphasizes multiple ball handlers sharing the ball and he's having easily the most efficient best season overall of his career and he's flourishing and I think there's still room for even further improvement for this overall team moving forward so I think with Booker you know we're here now and it's working he got better again and all that criticism has been totally hushed.

I don't have a counter. He's looked really good. What's weird about the Phoenix thing is I don't think their bench is good at all. And it hasn't really mattered for these first nine games because they're five that they trust the most. Those five guys play really well together. And I don't think it's sustainable because Baines is somebody who has never played more than 17, 18 minutes a game ever at any point in his career.

And right now they're playing him 35. I also think it's going to be really weird when Aiton comes back. It could be, yeah. But, you know, in Rubio's injury history, obviously he's been great. But I think what was the big lesson for me is just that Booker is a two guard

who needs to play with a good point guard who can just do all the stuff and just let Booker concentrate on being Booker. And that was the one that, whatever the arc of him as a player is, I think that was the one thing we learned. Because I always wondered, like, who cares? Just have him handle everything and be the creator.

But I don't know if that's the right move for him I think it touches on the same topic with Gildas Alexander I you know different players drastically different players but with Booker I still think he can do a lot on the ball for you I mean in a potential playoff situation someday for Phoenix down the line Booker's still going to be that guy at the end of the clock in the fourth quarter that you're giving the ball to. Yes. He can still be that guy. It's just you don't want him doing that all the time. And now they have at least some competent players around him, whether it's Rubio, whether it's Baines, or even someone like Oubre having a pretty good season for Phoenix. Right.

Especially on the defensive end, just hustling his ass off out there. You don't want Booker worrying about other players getting them involved all that stuff that's my point for sure and plus that's helped him on defense as well he's actually trying

on that end of the floor now for the first time ever since he was in college he's trying on the defensive end like bravo it's fun to watch he's pretty solid I think it was fair

to call him a good stats bad teams guy because he put up good stats on bad teams and now he's gotten rid of that sure but that label I think it was fair to call him a good stats, bad teams guy because he put up good stats on bad teams. I mean, from a literal sense. Sure, but that label has never been literal. It's about like, this is a player who will never contribute to winning.

That's what it's always been mean. Good stats, bad team player. Prove to me you can contribute to winning. Right now he is. He handed the good teams, bad stats championship belt to Zach Levine about a week ago. He's like, Zach, take care of this for me. Zach's like, that's great. Thanks, man.

We're going to win 28 games this year, but I'm going to get 25 again. One other coach to honorable mention to, John Beeline, the Cavaliers. Yeah, that team is very well prepared. I noticed that last week. I'm loving watching them play. It's fun.

I can't imagine I would have enjoyed watching Cleveland. He rejuvenated Tristan Thompson. They're running Kevin Love Tristan Thompson pick and rolls Bill Love's handling the ball on the perimeter and what's funny

Garland's been really not good at all he struggled but Sexton has been Sexton's made a jump you see the clip of a beeline

really empowering Sexton to shoot the ball I mean I thought it was pretty cool because Sexton last year was a guy who to shoot the ball. Yeah. I mean, I thought it was pretty cool because Sexton last year was a guy who was handling the ball a lot. Wasn't, he's sucking on defense.

Was not playmaking very well, but now he's getting pushed into that off ball role and becoming more of the guy that he was at Alabama, just busting his ass on defense. So that's been fun to watch. I'm glad you brought that coach up because that team is very well prepared every day. I was really impressed by them.

I watched the whole game when they played the Celtics. And the Celtics had way more talent. And that was a really hard-fought game. Tristan Thompson, I think, is the most intriguing buyout guy. Is he too good to buyout? He might be. He might have actually played himself into a, no, no, no, you're going to have to trade. He does make $18 million, which is tough,

but that's somebody when the Celtics, who I think it's fair to say, I think are a contender, that's a buyout guy that would swing it for them. I'm curious. So I agree for a first of all, about what you said about Boston. I still think they're one piece away, but there's probably a lot of people listening

who are like, no, they're not a contender. They're not, they're not even close. But like what makes them a contender you mentioned tatum and brown i'm just curious like what increases your confidence in them to actually be at that level this year well the tragedy was hayward getting hurt because i actually thought he was the best player in the team before he got hurt um here's what it is in a nutshell and this is what i tweeted right before the tweet broke haywood's hand. That was like how many minutes before? Four minutes.

It was four minutes later. It's unreal. They got rid of, it's not just Kyrie. It's also the fact that Marcus Morris and Roger are no longer on the team too. They got rid of all the ball stoppers and the ball moves now. And the mindset of everybody is so different. It's attack, attack, attack, slash and kick, attack, attack, go to the rim, attack. And that's just how they play.

I think they're really hard to defend. And Kemba is, he said, I think he's made, they played nine games. I think he's made 37 threes already. He's like 4.2 a game, 38 threes, something like that. Yeah. He brings a lot of the stuff to the table that Kyrie brought. He doesn't bring the end-of-the-game brilliance that Kyrie had, but that end-of-the-game brilliance also leads to just four other guys

just standing around watching you over and over again. You become pretty predictable. This team is not predictable. Every half, every quarter, it's just weird shit going on, and I think they're really hard to defend. And they can take on different styles too. If you can put in Rob Williams, Time Lord, as a rim running big,

who blocks shots for you, who rumbles down the lane, cuts, throws down these just crazy dunks, where it looks like he's floating midair. But then you can put in Enes Kanter, a more traditional interior center who's going to bruise you in certain matchups. His defense won't be as much of a limitation. Then you have put in Enes Kanter, a more traditional interior center who's going to bruise you in certain matchups.

His defense won't be as much of a limitation. Then you have Tice, who I think if you're going to upgrade, try to upgrade over somebody, it's probably Tice. But even then, you can go small with Grant Williams at the five, like they have sometimes, who has been okay. I think Grant Williams has not shot the ball well for them so far, but moving forward, that should be something that progresses for them. I still think they need one more guy.

I'm just not sure what that piece is. And it's hard for them to put together the salaries to get that guy. But if they can add one more guy, they're right on that same level, in my opinion, in the East with Milwaukee and Philly, if they play up to what they can. I think the East right now has five teams that I like and potentially a six if Oladipo comes back. But if you compare it to the West,

I think the Clippers have the highest ceiling. If Davis and LeBron are going to be there for four playoff rounds, they have to be taken seriously, obviously. But if you just compare the top five in each conference, the East is right there. So you're not as high on Denver or Utah? I don't like what I've seen from Denver this year.

I think it's fixable, and I think it can mature, but there's a little bit of a malaise with them that I haven't been crazy about. I love Jokic, but I don't like the fact that he came in overweight. I mean, he definitely gained five to 10 pounds. It's just a fact. Maybe Draymond Green's like, yeah, man, don't work out before the season.

This is what I do. I won three rings. I mean, I think Lakers, but if you put some of those teams, Denver and Utah in the East, they probably look comparable to Milwaukee, Boston, Philly, these teams that you're mentioning. That's what I mean, though.

Yeah. Okay. I understand what you're saying. I'm in the top five for each side. I thought going into the season, the West had probably seven of the best nine teams. I don't feel that way anymore. Because Boston's better than you expected.

Boston's better. I think Miami. Miami's better, too. And Miami has a trade to make, which I'm on pins and needles waiting for it because there's all these different ways they can add one more guy. They have a lot of tradable salaries. It's like inverse

of Boston. Boston doesn't have many guys in that $8 to $19 million range. Almost all of Miami's team is. They can make a lot of moves. Coaching job I'd go Monty Williams so far, but I think all the coaches we've mentioned were good. Most hopeless team, there's only one candidate.

The Knicks. Knicks, right? Yeah. Everyone else, there's... Even the Warriors, who are headed for the year from hell, they can still... There's nine different ways to spin it, right? They still roster Stephen Curry and Clay Thompson and Draymond Green. And they're already doing the thing like, hey man, we needed a rest.

We've been grinding out for five straight years, nine months a year. This was unsustainable. There's silver linings here five straight years, nine months a year. This was unsustainable. There's silver linings here. A good thing in the long run. Yeah, that's what it could be. We weren't going to win the title anyway. By the way, it really could be. It could be. I mean, it's just a fact. Michael Jordan

took a year and a half off to play baseball. It's not a bad thing for Stephen Curry to get a couple months off. Clay to get potentially a whole year off. It's not bad. Wizards, the rookie they drafted, not a bust. They kept Beal. The team's weirdly fun to watch for a terrible team. I'm psyched that Isaiah Thomas is back.

I don't know how long it's going to last, but they're not the shit show I thought they were going to be. And Charlotte's not either. The Knicks are the shit show. The Knicks have a roster that made no sense when they put it together. Literally none. Zero. I still don't understand it.

In 10 games, people are getting thrown under the bus already. All I would care about if I was them was R.J. Barrett, Frankie Smokes, Kevin Knox, and maybe Mitchell Robinson. I wouldn't care about anyone else on this team. What are you guys trying to do? Make the playoffs?

You're not going to. I don't understand. I mentioned this to Verno on today's Ringer NBA show. I don't understand the idea that this team actually had playoff hopes. I don't buy. They really did. I don't buy that they really did, though. I think they did.

There's no way you could look at this team and think they— Why would you sign Taj Gibson? Because it's a two— Why would you sign Taj Gibson? Because it's a two- Why would you sign Marcus Morris? Because they're short-term deals. That's why. You're literally just building for 2021. How about just keep the cap space?

You'd get ahead somebody. You have to have bodies in your roster. They could add a Russell Westbrook probably for free. One thing I want to say about the Knicks though is when you say most hopeless, do you mean in the whole grand scheme of like the next 10 years hopeless? I'm saying right now.

Okay. If you talk to the fans from the 30 teams, who would be the most bummed out? I mean, it's always Knicks fans. It's the Knicks. They have James Dolan as their owner. Oh, my God. There's already dysfunction. You didn't even mention that Fizdale could be fired.

Like, there's already dysfunction. He's going to be fired. He'll be the fall guy. Meanwhile, these dumbasses were the ones that signed everybody one thing though are we sure it's not the kings are we sure it's not the kings i know the reason why i say that though is because as bad as it is in new york as dysfunctional that it is it's still new york city yeah and it's still a team that's gonna have a lot of money to spend in 2021 or 2022. It's New York and it's a big market. I feel like as dysfunctional and as it is as hopeless as it might be, it's not Sacramento,

which has some iffy salaries, long-term salaries on there, which has, you know, probably slightly better young talent, but they're going to lose one of those guys and bug Donovich next summer. And all likelihood they have less in all likelihood. They have less flexibility moving forward. They have less draft picks. I think Sacramento, I really, really hate to say it, but if you're picking one Western

Conference team, it's probably them. I like Fox and Buddy and Bagley, though. I think all three of those assets better than any asset the Knicks have except for RJ I think that's fair but if you're doing top

top assets on those two teams RJ's the only one who cracks the top four but how much how much of an asset is being New York City and having a bunch of money even if you're not getting

we just saw it for 20 years all they did was lose but even if at that point you're not getting that number one guy in free agency and you're getting like the fourth or fifth best guy. I don't think anyone wants to play there.

Anyone. We just watched them get shut out with two max cap slots. So like Rudy Gobert in 2021, like why wouldn't he want to play? Like, I'm just saying a Rudy Gobert type of player. He would sign in Sacramento over New York. KFC, are you like on the Knicks payroll? What's going on here? No, I'm just making... Nobody wants to

play there. Not one player. We'll see. People want to go there when they have nowhere else to go. That's what I mean. Not every team has a max slot. That's my point. By default... Kyle, is KFC trying to be the next Knicks GM?

I mean, if James Dolan is listening... He's trying to do a John Hollinger on us. If James Dolan is listening. Unbelievable. You're lobbying for the Knicks GM. I just think if the at-cap space is an asset. And also, I like Heald a lot. I'm not nearly as high on Bagley as you are.

I'm not as high on Fox as a lot of people are either. I like those guys. Wow. Fox is really good, but he also is a very inefficient half-court scorer. Bagley is not a good defensive player. He is an inefficient half-court scorer who I'm not super high on

as a decision maker or moving forward. Buddy Heal is a guy I love. Why couldn't all of this stuff have manifested itself last year when the Celtics had their unprotected pick? Well, the Celtics

could run into the same issue with Memphis this year. If Memphis is bad, top six protected this year, then next year Memphis could end up being good. They have some cap space. They could add a guy.

Young players get better. God forbid this ever worked out. Yeah. Oh, it did that time when we got Jason Tatum. Never works for Boston sports teams. Never works out. All right, last one.

Most pleasant surprise. We mentioned Monty Williams. I got to say, I made some jokes about Anthony Simons before the year. Oh, yeah. What a delight. He's fun, isn't he? Could not believe how good he was in the Clips Blazers game. He was like borderline unstoppable.

They had to put Beverly on him. Yeah. And he's been able to sustain it the next couple games. And they have this weird situation now where they put those three guys out together and it's kind of dangerous. But then they have Mario Hazonia out there. Oh, my God. And I don't know what they do, but Simons is playing almost too well where you can't trade him. I wouldn't.

He's untouchable, right? I wouldn't trade him? I wouldn't. He's untouchable, right? I wouldn't trade him. What if Orlando said, we'll give you Aaron Gordon right now for Bazemore and Simons? I think Portland says no. I think you say no. I think Simons as young as he is

and the upside that he's shown, he's the guy four years from now when you need to pay him, you're like, okay, we'll just trade CJ McCollum at this point. You know what I mean? So it's like he's your future-proof guard that you keep at some point to make another move.

And I think if you're going to make a move, it's Whiteside or Bazemore. Yeah, Whiteside. A lot of takers. Oh, yeah. But he's an expiring deal, at least with picks for like a Kevin Love or a Gallinari somebody like that who you can plug in at the four

see I think it's Gallinari Gallo's a no brainer Bazemore I'll throw in a first I'll throw in some money what else do you need yeah but not Simons

if you flip Pozzonia for Gallinari this team is good right away and the Simons thing is a real thing I would be doing my annual here's how they should trade CJ McCollum part of this pod, but I'm not

going to do that because he's not eligible to be traded until January 20th. So you can't. You get away. You can't even do it. I'm not sure I would do it anyway because it's such a fascinating team now with these three guys. I'll say this about Simons. You watch Fultz

more than I did in college. Watching Simons is what I thought Fultz was going to be when he was coming into the league. Interesting. This guy, he just has a flow to his game. He's got these little stop and pop bank shot and pull up threes. And there's just something going with him that's different. And he's only 20. He just turned 20 in June. So they weren't full of shit. I thought they were full of shit when they were doing this. Oh, you know who's untouchable?

Simon. It's like, okay, dudes. You'll be training. I heard the noise this summer too. Like Simon's going to make a leap. And you're like, yeah, you know, we'll see. But then you see in summer league, he looked really good. And then in preseason, he looks really good.

And now it's regular season and he looks really good. I'm buying. I, he looks really good. And now it's, now it's regular season and he looks really good. I'm buying. I'm totally buying him as a six man of the year candidate. Nah, I mean,

Lou Williams is still going to put up huge numbers. Lou Williams is kind of, you know, the incumbent, you know, he's going to get the votes again.

I mean, Lou Williams shouldn't count as six man. Why? Cause he plays as much as a starter. He's out there in every fourth quarter.

I think that's a bending of the rules. So we should change the rule then. It's a rule bend. It's a minutes thing, not come out of the bench. It's a rule bend. They get through the first four, five minutes of the quarter and look shitty until they bring you Williams and Harrell. Start these guys.

They're two of your best players. What are you doing? I don't know. For what it's worth, I got Andrew Wiggins as the most pleasant surprise. Oh, I knew you were going to do it. I mean, we're talking 10 games. This might not be true in another week.

You're going to write the Wiggins redemption piece in like two weeks. Here's the funny thing. It's been a slow buzz building. I pitched a story to Chris Ryan before the season. Can Ryan Saunders save Andrew Wiggins' career? I mean, he's only like, what, 24? Yeah.

And the point of the pitch was, you know, Saunders had said before training camp that Wiggins is going to have a breakout season. You know, with the new system they were installing, you know, analytics-friendly layups, threes, getting to the free throw line. I was like, can Wiggins maybe excel in this? I don't know.

It was like kind of asking the question. And through 10 games, including preseason, preseason was bad. Regular season is good. I'm not sold. But it's a pleasant surprise

that Wiggins has looked pretty good. He is taking, he's taking smarter shots. He is not taking early mid-range jumpers as often. And with the driving lanes that the five-out...

This is enough about Andrew Wiggins. You've used up your minute. The five-out offense, his playmaking has improved, Bill. This is too long. He's passing the ball. You're jinxing him now. Maybe I am. Last category, league pass team MVP.

I mean, I had Luka for this. Dallas? Yeah. I mean, Luka, you know, is a player to watch. Luka or Trae Young, one of those two guys. I think the Celtics have been really fun from a league pass standpoint because their games are just,

they're just entertaining. Everybody scores. There's a real pace to them. And I have the, I think the Clippers have been really fun. They've had some, they actually have a home crowd now that is into the game.

Like that Clippers Raptors game last night, the crowd was good, and I thought affected the game. And I have Luka as well. And the Simons thing, every time Portland's in now, I'm kind of like sneaking over to see if he's playing. You have like an alert for Simons entering the game. It's just to have him and McCollum and Lillard, if Simons can keep making a jump,

to have these three guards that could all score, nobody really has anything like that. It's a shame that they suck so much at the four position right now. You know, it's like losing Aminu and Harkless, I thought was, you know, notable. I like Harkless. I thought it was notable this summer, but I underrated the actual significance of that loss.

I mean, when you're playing Hazonia as much as you are, it's a problem. I still have faith that Kent Bazemore can emerge. I do not have faith in Whiteside. I do not have faith in Hazonia at all. You mentioned Luka and you had him as an MVP candidate. And I've said he's already a top 10 guy. Are you there yet with him being a top 10 player in the league today? Or is he just an MVP candidate? I have him in top seven now. Top seven. Top seven.

I think he is a super duper star. Top seven today. So I think he is. Who falls off that top seven then? Because like, you know, I have on my list, the guys who I would have ahead of him for sure. LeBron, Kawhi, Giannis, Steph, Harden, AD. So that's six.

But then the next group is like Lillard, George, Luka, Jokic, and Bede. I have Luka higher than Lillard. See, the Portland fans are getting mad. I just think he's a complete offensive player already. I can't believe how easily he goes by people. His passing is ridiculous, and it seems like he can score whenever he wants.

He's probably the best passer in the league. And he fucking rebounds. Yep. I think he passer in the league. And he fucking rebounds. Yep. I think he takes Curry's spot. Now, if you want to put Lillard in there as the seventh guy, but I think he takes Curry's spot and Durant's spot because Durant's the other one that you didn't mention. But those two guys.

So the top seven now is really probably a top eight or a top nine. And then you didn't mention Embiid. Oh, no. Embiid would be in that next group. So for my order, this is just thrown together in two seconds. LeBron, Kawhi, Giannis, Steph, Harden, AD, Lillard, George, Luka, I have ninth. Then I have Jokic, Embiid, Kyrie, Butler. That's like the top 12, 13.

I'd have to put more time into this. Yeah. I'm just starting backwards. Luka has to be in that first six or seven for me because I think he's a one-man offense. I tweeted that over the weekend and the counterpoint was like, he needs to do it over a longer period of time.

And I understand. Fuck that. Watch the games. Yeah, I know. That's what I mean. I understand that. That's just a bad opinion. No, I mean, I think we already,

we've seen years of this. We've seen the progression each year from before the NBA to his rookie year to what he is now. This is a very natural. I count his year league as his rookie year. Last year was year two. This is year three.

It makes sense to me. He looks pretty awesome. Listen, hop on the Luca bandwagon now. He's fucking unbelievable. It's real. Kevin O'Connor, listen to you on Ringer NBA show. Read you on the ringer.com. Thanks for coming on as always.

Thanks for having me, Bill. Okay. We're getting to Matt Damon in a second. First, let's talk about square. They make that little white reader that lets people take credit cards, including, um, I think the last three years of haircuts I've gotten, I used square and got out of there within like a minute. Kyle, are you using your square yet?

I gave it to my barber. It's changed, changed everything. What do you mean? I gave it to my barber. I was tired of paying him over the other ways. My barber's got it. He's fully functioning now. Oh, that's great. Yeah. Look at that. What's your barber's name? Fernando. Fernando. Congratulations. Square is so much more than just a card reader. They have a lot more tools to help businesses too. Point of sale for restaurants, retail stores, salons, and frankly, any other kind of business that needs a point of sale. You can set up a free online store. You can run payroll

and offer employees benefits. You can send invoices right from your phone. No long-term contracts. Always get your money fast. See how Square can take your business from square one to whatever's next at square.com slash go slash BS. And since we're here, let me tell you about Luminary really quickly. It is a podcast subscription service with some of the best content around, including our amazing new podcast, Sonic Boom, How Seattle Lost Its Team,

hosted by our very own Jordan Ritter Kahn. If you're a fan of sports, great investigative journalism, or both, it's a podcast you won't want to miss. If it ever bothered you that the Sonics got ripped out of Seattle and brought to Oklahoma City, well, now you get to find out all the facts and the reasons why it actually happened. We also have two more podcasts on there, Break Stuff, the story of Woodstock 1999 and the Rewatchables spinoff, the Rewatchables 1999. The Luminary app,

free to download, gives you access to way more than just their own content. You can use it to listen to thousands of other shows, including this one. Get your first two months of access to Luminary's premium content for free when you sign up at luminary.link slash Simmons. After that, it's only $7.99 per month. Luminary.link slash Simmons. Cancel anytime. Terms do apply. Here he is.

The one, the only, Matt Damon. All right, Matt only Matt Damon. All right, Matt Damon is here. The last podcast we did, which was a year ago. Was it that long already? One of the most popular podcasts I've had in the last like five years. Oh,

good. I feel like this is as a sequel. I don't want this to be like Fletch 2. I didn't even know. Caddyshack 2. Some of the other bad sequels. I'm hoping. Don't say any of mine. I don't think it'll be Godfather 2.

You don't do sequels. I guess you just did Born. I did Born and Oceans. Oh. What was the most maligned Oceans sequel? The second. But now it's, I thought it's come around now. I think it has.

It was Soderbergh's favorite of them. Yeah. But people were mad when it came out because it was too meta. I think so. Yeah, I think so. I haven't seen it. I mean, people were mad when it came out because it was too meta. I think so. Yeah, I think so. I haven't seen it. I mean,

I would have to go back and watch it, but right. It was that thing of Julia Roberts playing herself and right. Right. And Bruce Willis or anything thinking Julia thinking. Yeah.

Her character was Julia Roberts mistaking her. Yeah. People just, I think what year was that? We shot it in oh four. Yeah. Cause that was right.

So the last 15 years, and then when Twitter became involved, really people just getting pissed off about movies. Well, people were probably always that pissed off. Yeah, they just had a place. They just had a place to voice it. Yeah. Yeah. I had no idea how mad people were.

What was the maddest people have been in a Matt Damon movie? Probably Ocean's 12, right? I don't know. Bagger Vance? I mean, I certainly have my own feelings. It's hard. It's that thing. It's so hard to make a good movie.

And you don't work any less hard, nor do the hundreds of people who work on the movies. You don't work any less hard on the movies that aren't good. Yeah. Right. It's, it really is the same workload. It's not like the great ones require more.

It's just that they came together, you know, in, in, in a way that the others didn't. um, downsizing was one that people weren't sure about. And now it seems like that's coming around a little.

Oh, I wouldn't know you. You'd know better than I would. I love it. I mean, it's Alexander Payne is a, is one of the great filmmakers on the planet. And look,

he, he totally delivered for me. What he said to me was he was going to make a Hal Ashby movie with special effects. And that's what that movie is. And I don't know if we, if we, if it just wasn't what people were expecting, which means maybe we were a little too tricky in the marketing by, by, I think people might've been expecting like me and wig to just be downsized and to be like, zoinks, they're small, you know?

And like, and maybe we, yeah. And, and, and, and, and if you set people's expectations up for something, then you don't deliver that. You're going to be, they're going to be disappointed. And that really is, and that's fair. You should show them the movie that you made. You know what I mean? You should sell them the movie as it is. You know, you shouldn't try to do a bait and switch,

which I don't think we were doing. I think the idea was we want to save the reveal that she doesn't downsize. She chickens out. And it was like this great reveal when you read the script. And it was really funny. And suddenly this guy is a bachelor living in leisure land in a condo. And he's five inches tall, right?

And he's got to put his life back together. And so, but I don't think anybody saw it because it's just such a dramatic left turn. And he falls in love with a one-legged Vietnamese political dissident. And, you know, there's that great line that I have, and I'm going to paraphrase it, but who would have thought 10 years ago that I'd be going down in a Norwegian fjord, going to meet the great, and I name the scientist with it.

And it's just the most ridiculous thing. And he's five inches, I'm five inches tall. It's this, and that's what I loved about it. It was unlike any other movie that I'd ever seen, And he's five inches – I'm five inches tall. It's this – and that's what I loved about it. It was unlike any other movie that I'd ever seen. And that's what I think movies should be. They should push us a little bit and entertain. But they have to entertain us too in that case.

I don't know. I mean I had lunch with Alexanderlexander afterwards and um kind of an after action taco down at tacos por favor give them a little plug just sitting there at tacos por favor going like what happened man like boy that didn't work like what was it but but the thing about great directors legitimately great directors is every shot in that movie is so meticulously designed like it's gonna age well you know it really is the best expression of that idea. It just seems that people weren't interested in that story. We just did a Rewatchables podcast on The Shining, which is basically almost 40 years old, summer 1980.

Yeah. I didn't even know that that movie, like, basically bombed. People were mad when it came out, and they didn't understand it and get it. And it took, like, eight years for people to even— Well, Stephen King apparently out and they didn't understand it and get it and it took like eight years for people to even Stephen King apparently still he didn't like it he was furious

right he thought he felt like totally betrayed by it well I haven't read I never read the book so I can't I can't speak to what he might have been upset about but it always just surprised me because it's such an iconic movie

and it really and Kubrick I mean I have a few different Shining stories that I love. I don't know how much time we have. We have a lot of time. How do you have Shining stories? You were in the Shining. No, but I worked with the production designer who the last film he did was The Talents of Mr. Ripley.

And he was Kubrick's guy. And he told me this great story about about what about when he was designing that movie, Stanley Kubrick had a scale model of the Overlook. It's the Overlook Hotel. Yeah. The Overlook Hotel in their production office. And they would stand around and this is like 1978 or nine. And he would set these lights on on you know to to shoot this little hotel he would set miniature lights and he would get them he would take hours doing this while his production heads were standing around and then he'd take a photograph and then he'd hand it to an assistant who would go and run off and this is before one hour photo yeah run off and develop it and come back with an eight by ten and kubrick would look at it for about five minutes and then he'd put it down and he'd go back and he'd start setting the lights and uh this is roy walker telling me this story

yeah the legendary guy and and and this process would go on for days but what roy said was what was incredible was when you were on the set kubrick had come up with some algorithm by which he could kind of transpose the numbers of the light so he would get them he would set it just how he wanted and then he would record what each light was at he knew his sources were coming from exactly the same place in the big world when he did it and he came up with this algorithm by which he could just go and he had all the things set and he would just set the lights up. And Roy said, you could hold the eight by 10, stand in the hallway, hold the eight by 10 in front of your face and pull it away. And you would see the exact same thing that had shot on

the miniature model, which is just like the level of it just artistry slash insanity and obsession is just so beautiful i mean that's why people are convinced that all these different things are in that movie because their whole point is like this guy was a genius and a lunatic and every single thing was in there for a reason yeah so there's like people think it's about you know the native american genocide and they're like all these different clues and one of them is this it's i think it's coffee or something but it's calumet and it's it's like an indian chief on the on the can and he turns it in ways so that it kind of mirrors what's happening with the characters and people but there's actual video of him moving the cans yeah in this little

no there's nothing like so good to bring downsizing back into it watching how meticulous alexander is about everything in his frame there's no there's no any of these directors there's nothing arbitrary yes in a frame of a movie there's nothing that hasn't been thought about there there have been meetings and conversations about every color, every single thing in that entire palette that's being presented to you has been discussed for hundreds of hours. So do you think they see that in their head, almost like a little kid, like with a short story in their head, and they just have to hit the beats that's in their head? I think people do it, they all do it really differently you know yeah some people work thematically and they go well

here we want this kind of light and this because this is the characters in this place and they're kind of kind of going through the character and the prism of what's happening for the character and and and and everything's extending out of that and and other people probably like kubrick i don't know what was happening in his brain. It was probably the weird photo stuff. And like every, he probably had every frame sketched out. I know that. I've heard like David Fincher, who's Soderbergh's best friend. So I've done eight movies with Soderbergh, but I have never worked with Fincher. But Ben worked with Fincher.

Affleck did. Oh, for Gonger. Yes. And so I went down and visited the set one day and and and what what i've heard from both steven and from ben having worked with him is it's it's it's fincher is like has that kubrick thing like he can't unsee what he sees yeah right and so i sat behind him one day while he was directing and it was this scene where ben and rosamund pike walk into this bookstore and so the camera was down the aisle of books so it sees them down the aisle open the door come in and then as they walk down so the camera was down the aisle of books so it sees them down the aisle open the door

come in and then as they walk down these the camera dollies with them at the far end of the bookstore and walks down and then they eventually enter an aisle the camera stops they enter up the aisle towards the camera and they end up kissing each other in this section of the bookstore so it's like a probably a 90 second shot yeah while they're talking and and and when the camera rolled like fincher's got this big monitor in front of him with with you know it's everything is time because everything is exactly as it's going to appear in the movie and he's and he's set all these levels himself and he's sitting there and and uh and i'm i'm behind him and i've got headphones on so i can hear the scene and

and he calls action they call background which is for the the extras the people in the bookstore and then they call action so when he calls background and then action a background actor walks across the frame all right then ben and rosamund enter the bookstore and the scene's about to start but fincher is already monologuing he's going who the fuck walks like that and it's the background artist that he's that has it just it just instantly caught his eye because i mean what the fuck was that what the fuck who the fuck walks like that nobody walks like that now ben and rosamund are on the other side of this bookstore and they're doing the scene but fincher's just still talking about this and i'm sitting here going like oh my god they're

definitely going to do the scene again. Like this take is completely. It's shot. It's shot. It's just shot. And so they get through the whole scene. They're acting their hearts out. It's great, but it doesn't matter because the scene ended before it began.

And Fincher goes, cut. He takes the headphones off. He's like, I mean, what the fuck was that? And he looks at me. Now I know what he's talking about. The background artist was told to go from point A to point B. And they were not thinking about anything other than going from point A to point B. Like a zombie.

And it looked ridiculous. He's not wrong. But it's just not worth. It's like, okay, just make a note of that. But it just ruined the whole thing for him. And we're sitting there. And as we're talking, a makeup artist comes on because Rosamund's still in the frame and she's going to like powder her forehead

or whatever. She comes on and David goes, I mean, that's how you walk. Like, you know, because she had a place to go. She had a reason to go there. Right. And so she's not thinking about walking. She's thinking about, I gotta, I gotta do my touch up. I only have about 10 seconds. I gotta get out. We gotta do the scene again. So I think, you know, and I think for people like that, it's almost like a curse, you know? Like I remember when he made, with the famous Swedish books, The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. Right. And I asked Steven, it was, the movie was going to come out within a month. And I was like, how was it?

I read the books. I'm dying to know. I mean, and Steven goes, I haven the books I'm dying to know I mean and Stephen goes I haven't seen it yet like what are you talking about he hasn't shown it to you yet like of all people and he he goes no I literally think there's like a monitor a computer screen in one shot in the background and he's still trying to set the level of that like he goes he can't unsee what he sees you know and and that's the the that's the genius right it's I mean would you think of Once Upon a Time in Hollywood?

I haven't seen it yet because I was shooting. Not for any other reason other than I was on set in France. So you don't want a blog post headline tomorrow? Matt Damon refuses to see Once Upon a Time in Hollywood? No, I'm dying to see it, actually. Well, that's your rival, Leo. I've been trying to start that rivalry forever. I don't think it's going to start.

You know who I am. I'm Team Damon. Well, thank you, man. I've been there forever. He's a great guy, though. He's going to start. You know who I am. I'm Team Damon. Well, thank you, man. I've been there forever. He's a great guy, though. He's lovely. The partner you guys went head-to-head. We did.

We did. I had a ball working with him. He's great. And that movie was, if you gave me what movies am I most excited about coming this fall, it was like that and The Irishman. I was just dying to see those. The reason I was interested in the way you thought of it was because the Brad Pitt part was, I mean, he's amazing

in it and you know him and you have a whole history with him, but that part would have been interesting in different people's hands. You were one of the people, you could have played, I think, either part in that movie or at least made a run at it. I'll have to see it. But there's not a lot of great A-list parts like that. No, there's not

a lot of great A-list parts because movies. No, there's not a lot of great A-list parts because movies are changing. The nature of movies are changing, are in the middle of changing because of the disappearance of the DVD. Well, this movie you're in now, which I'm going to talk about in a second, I think has two really good parts. But Talented Mr. Ripley was 20 years ago. And I think it was like December. When it came out, we shot it 21 years ago. Mm-hmm. And I think it was like December. When it came out, we shot it 21 years ago. Yeah. And that's a movie that I'm positive would not get made now.

Or if it got made now, it would be all actors nobody had ever heard of. Yeah, but I mean, even then it was hard to make. I mean, we made it for $37 million, which was a really, that's not a big budget for that movie. For the scale that that movie has, I mean, we were working six day weeks and working long, long hours. I mean, it was, it was, that was a labor of love for everybody who did it. Definitely. Um, and, uh, it's on cable a lot, which means now though the young people don't even watch cable anymore, but it seems like there's still an audience for it. Um, which I Which I think seeing that movie in 1999, I would not have guessed that that movie was going to have legs.

I thought it was great, but I was surprised by the rewatchability of it. Oh, that's good to know. It's good when they're rewatchable. I always thought that's how you should judge the movies, right? It's got to be part of it. The Martians like that too. The Martians are really rewatchable. Give it more time.

You never know. The Bourne movies? Yeah. What's the most rewatchable Bourne movie though? What was come on you can pick now you're almost 50 uh i always really liked the the second one i think the third one was kind of hit the zeitgeist the most it was like the right movie for that time it kind of we were riding on all we had kind of the wind at our backs for the third but the second one i felt i, I always liked it because it was really dark. The, you know, her getting killed at the beginning and it was unexpected,

especially after we, you know, we took all this, it was like we had to fight to get her in the first one, right? Because it's like, well, who is she? She's European. And Doug Lyman, who directed it to his credit, said, I don't buy this this american guy with amnesia being over in europe and bumping into another american like yeah what's that like that's crazy um and uh and i think you know and i and i remember at the time

it was like jennifer lopez was interested and there were like big names that were interested in that role and doug really fought to have a lesser-known European actress and and she was amazing and so you go to all that you know you fight for somebody who you believe in because she's great and then you you you kind of it all works out and she proves to be like one of the best parts of the movie see and you start the second one with her getting killed it was really surprising and but also it was also the only way to get that character going again right because he's like i'm out and i have this and i have a reason to live and so it's like if you you know it propels that it's propulsive right and uh and then and you're also with him because you're pissed off

too because you love her too right um but at any rate it goes from that kind of out of a canon start to and it ends with an apology he ends up going to this person and taking responsibility for what he did and that's why the original john wick worked yeah they killed his dog they shouldn't have done that they shouldn't have done that and then the premise you're in from the get-go, take it in Liam Neeson, they took his daughter. He's got to go get her. That's it. If you can explain an action movie in like eight words, you're good. It's going to work every time.

It's so true. What happens to old man born? Are you still making born in like 2038? I don't know. I don't know what will happen. I mean, he's at a nursing home. He's at a nursing home. Normandy or something. I don't know. And don't know what will happen. I mean, he's at a nursing home. He's at a nursing home. Normandy or something.

I don't know. And he just can't remember. He can't remember why he likes tapioca. He can't remember where they left the jello. No, if anybody ever came up with a story, I'd do it. I love the character. But I don't know. There was always that inner thing that propelled him, right,

which is he didn't have his memory. And I think we keep getting it back in stages. I think we've got my memory back four times. What kind of level of CTE does Bord have? I know, it's really bad. It's like the last level. It's a lifetime of cage fighting. He just doesn't remember anything. Let's take a quick break to talk about Sales Genie, a product of InfoGroup. If you're in sales marketing or own your own business, listen up. For nearly 50 years, InfoGroup. If you're in sales, marketing, or own your own business, listen up. For nearly 50 years, InfoGroup has helped professionals succeed just like you. We all know the number one reason salespeople and businesses fail in general. It's because they're challenged in finding new customers. Well, I'm here to tell you, all you need is the

right audience to call on or market to. Sales Genie is the proven way to find, acquire, and retain customers. Sales Genie can't make way to find, acquire, and retain customers. Sales genie can't make you pick up the phone. They can't bring your next customer to your doorstep. Here's what they can do. They can provide you all the B2B and B2C audiences for prospecting, whether it's calling, direct mail, email, or display advertising. And if you're serious about finding your next customer and growing your business, give SalesGenie a call for your free 14-day trial, 866-574-5442. Or go to salesgenie.com slash bill, S-A-L-E-S-G-E-N-I-E.com slash bill or 866-574-5442. Back to Matt Damon. I had

Edward Norton was here a few weeks ago oh man he's in on Rounders 2 everybody's in everybody's in every single person is in but I have a new plan

what's that? Netflix maybe they'd do it yeah I bet they would I don't know who owns the rights I don't know if if that's open on a Friday people are watching Rounders 2

I think so too I think I think it would be great you could do it in 10 weeks I could I would do it I would do it I mean I'm telling. I think it would be great. You could do it in 10 weeks. I would do it. I mean, I'm telling you. I mean, and I know Edward would want to do it.

I mean, we talked about it. Yeah, we talked about it years ago. And Brian and David have a great idea. Like, we really should do it. Edward seems concerned about what happens to Worm and how much he'll be in it. I don't think he wants to be a caddy. I think he really wants Worm to be drawn out as a real character, which I agree with.

But I agree that that's what people liked about the first one. Yeah. I don't ever feel like, I mean, he got to do this really colorful thing, but it felt like the co-lead,

you know what I mean? And that's what everyone loved. And it's that dynamic, right? It's that friend you have that always, you know he's going to screw it up for you. Yeah.

You know what I mean? And that's really, that's... But you have that always you know he's gonna screw it up for you yeah you know what i mean and that's really that's and i think you have the history that yeah you just the history is always gonna win so what's happened to them right i mean worm can't have been making really awesome decisions for the last 20 years right so what stage is he gonna be in like what trouble in like the costa rican offshore you know gambling house is he in right at the, like, you know, I'm in a bit of a spot here, Mike, they want to kill me. Right. It's like something you can see there, there are a lot of different ways to go. Wealthy Mike McD, I think is that would work. And then worm coming back because he needs money. Right. And he knows, but also, but meanwhile, there's

this other revolution happening in poker, right. Which is the, the Doyle Brunson's and all those people who were just running the game when we made rounders. And the common thing, it was like, Hey, it's a skill game and these are the best in the world. Suddenly these kids came up online from like Sweden, you know, like they've been playing 10 hands at a time since they were 12 years old. And by the time they show up for a live game, they're like AI, you know, they walk in and they're, and they're playing. And I was talking to Koppelman about it a few years ago. And he's saying it's the game has gone so deep into like game theory. Like it's just an unrecognizable game the way it's played by this new generation. So it'd be interesting to watch Mike go back. You know, he was the young kind of upstart who was kind of proved himself worthy in the game. But like now this new group is coming in of like... It's going to take them down. Right.

And they are taking the game. They're like destroying everybody in their path. They're literally doing stuff with analytics where they're playing hands online the way they wouldn't play them just so that they throw off their profile because people are reading everybody's hand histories. Right.

They're sabotaging their own hands. They're sabotaging their own. It's what Tony Romo called out Belichick for uh it was one of this great calls that Romo had a few a year ago or two where where the other team I can't remember who we were playing was coming down and the game we were up by three scores and there's like five minutes left and Belichick put this put his, and they instantly, right before they snapped the ball, Roma goes, oh, this is so gross. This is so sick. And whoever's doing the answer, what do you mean, Tony?

And he's like, oh, he never does this. He's just trying to mess with the analytics right now. Like he was literally putting in a package that he knew would get run all over because he was going to concede the score because it didn't matter at all for the game, for the outcome of the game and because he wanted he wanted the uh he wanted other coaches to be like flim flammed they're like well what does he do in this situation well sometimes he

does this and sometimes he does that no he always does the same thing there but he doesn't want you to see i believe he does all that stuff so i am i am still in the corner that the seattle superbowl which we actually probably watched together watched together, that he was reading the sideline on the other side, Seattle. He saw the chaos and anyone else would have called timeout, but he saw something he liked and just decided to ride it out. And people are like, that's crazy. There's no way he froze. I don't know. I mean, he was depending on Butler. If you remember that play, so Butler smacks, was it Tlaib who was right in front of him? So Butler walks up behind him.

They were stacked up against each other, right? I never played football. I thought Tlaib slapped Butler, right? No, I thought Butler was behind him. So Butler walks up and slaps Tlaib. In other words, to say, get firm on this guy at the line. Don't let him push you off. I'm coming in right here.

Like literally came right off his ass. And because he recognized it because Butler had been beat by that play in practice. Right. And he got a talking to from Belichick. So my recollection is that that. So if that's Belichick going like, I'm going to trust that Malcolm remembers that this happened. And, you know, that's a lot of trust. I don't think he was thinking that. I think he was thinking they seem out of control.

Whatever they're going to do on this play is probably not going to work. Let's ride it out. Maybe it'll be a pass. We'll get an incompletion. It'll stop the clock anyway. I don't know what he was thinking, but he's staring across the sideline watching them the same way you would watch somebody's house from across the street.

Yeah. watching them the same way you would watch like somebody's house from across the street. I just, I think he goes back to the Kubrick and Fincher and those guys. I think certain people are just different. We're not going to understand them. I don't know what he does 10 years from now. I think he's- I don't know why he didn't start Malcolm Butler in the Philly Super Bowl.

Well, that one, we'll never know the story. Well, I don't know why. I mean, it's like you've won so many Super Bowls at least tell us give us some reason why when we are getting when

they literally couldn't stop us did we punt we didn't punt in that game Patriots didn't punt I don't think so Tommy threw for what 900 thousand yards

in that game like set every record they could not stop him they could not stop him are you worried this is our last year with him? No, I'm... No, no.

I know you know. I know you know what he's doing. I don't know. I have not had that conversation. Hey, man, what's going on? No, no, no, no, no. I wouldn't... It's private.

It's his business. I would never ask him that. And I don't have that kind of relationship with him. I'm always really happy to see him. Yeah. And, like, I think the world of the guy, but... Are you happy to see him

because he's won a six Super Bowlsbowls. Is that one of the reasons? I love, I love watching people who are that dedicated to what they do and he works so hard and most of that work you never see. And I just admire that in people. I, I, I admire it in people in any field that they're in that, that, that go after excellence to that degree. It's awesome. And it's inspirational, and it makes me better at my job. But I think what's happening with him, like these people, like the decline of Tom Brady and it's his age. He's in better shape now than he was when he was 24, without a doubt. And they just got to protect him.

They just need to protect him. You know, the line, we've got all these injuries. We've got people moving around. If you protect him and give him receivers who can get separation, I'll take him over any quarterback in the NFL. So we're taping this the day after the Ravens game, which I actually feel like they needed because today has been a whole day of, oh, Brady's old.

Pats don't have it. This is great. We're back. It's our bye week and we're going to hear two weeks of this nonsense and people screaming at each other on ESPN

awesome it's over it's over coming up next I'll tell you why yeah exactly all that stuff no nothing's changed

I mean people say they just look at his numbers and say his production is falling off and you just go like I mean okay he doesn't have

Gronkowski this year. You know what I mean? Like, it would have been, you know, you know. The Ben Watson play that was,

Gronk catches that every time in the second half. Right. The 25-yard seam route. Right. Watson drops it. Yeah.

Gronk makes that play. Yeah. And, and Watson normally makes that play. Right, right. I mean, that just,

that didn't go our way. but, but look, there, you know, Sanu was great. Sanu Sr. Yeah, Sanu Sr. was awesome. That was exciting. And Edelman's always great. We have two seniors now.

Well, yeah, I know. It's a big one. It's a bold move to throw the senior on your uniform. On your own name? Yeah, I like it. That's good. So I don't know. I think, you know, when Isaiah Wynn comes back, like, we'll see, you know. If they can protect him, it's like, you know, I don't know.

Would you want to be 42 years old and, like, have this guy? I don't know how he does it. I don't know. It's like. Well, he's also, he's, the thing I've noticed this year, it does take him maybe a quarter to heat up sometimes, the old guy thing, but he's like a car. But he just doesn't take any hits he doesn't have to take anymore.

It's like you talk about like Fincher and their brain works. Yeah, he's assessed all of the risk in every game. And it's like if we run this play and it's not there, in 2.1 seconds I'm throwing the ball away. Yeah, which I love. I'm not getting hit. And I think actually younger quarterbacks should look at that. Yeah, like Baker Mayfield. Because you sit

there and you go like, you know, or Jimmy G getting hurt last year. Like, you sit there and you go like, I can keep this play alive. Like, young quarterbacks try to win the game on every play. Right. And what Brady's doing now is what Manning was doing at the end of his career. It's like, I got an idea of how I can beat you. Yeah. And

it's one idea, and I'm going to snap the you yeah and it's one idea and i'm gonna snap the ball and i'm gonna look and go nope didn't work all right i'm gonna try again i got three chances to beat you and that's how they're looking at it rather than like it's gotta be now and they run around and they get scrambled they get their heads taken off or they get i remember his first or second year he was scrambling to the right and just got absolutely tattooed by somebody. It was like against Pittsburgh. It was one of the conference people and bounced up. But it was like he would five years ago, those days were over where he would ever take a hit like that.

Yeah. And I mean, by the way, you're taking a lot of hits anyway. Yeah. Like, you know, it's like when they say, oh, quarterback hits and hurries. Like you still you're still in your 40s getting knocked down by a big, strong guy. 320-pound dudes. Yeah. Like, most human beings have never been touched by a 320-pound professional athlete.

I mean, it can't feel great. But can you believe how long this has lasted? I mean, think about what your life was like in 2001. I don't know what movie you were making that year. I watched the first Super Bowl. You've made like 10 blockbusters since then. But I watched, I know exactly where I was

for every Super Bowl. The first one was against the Rams. I was in a Scottish pub in Paris. So we were doing reshoots on the Bourne Identity. Oh. And, and. The predated,

all the Bourne movies, the first Super Bowl. first yeah the first super bowl yeah it was 2002 so the the born movie came out six months after it yeah that summer and we were picking up some shots in paris and there was a scottish pub near where we were shooting and frank marshall our producer went over and he grabbed me because this is you know so he runs this scottish pub we can watch the super bowl in here tonight. I was like, oh, my God. So we go. We get in there. And it's illegal for them to have, you know, be up serving beer at, you know, they're supposed to be closed at whatever, 1 a.m.

And the Super Bowl comes on in Europe at, you know, whatever, 2 in the morning. So we go in and they've got blankets up around in all the windows to like black it out to the outside. So no one knows we're in there. And every Scottish person in Paris has heard that the bar is going to be open. So they're like, they're all there because they're regulars at this Scottish pub, right? And they're instantly Patriots fans. They know nothing about American football, but they're all like, go Patriots. Because the Patriots are the reason that they're allowed to drink till

six in the morning. So it was an awesome place to see that Super Bowl. So when you're filming, you're just filming a movie in Paris. So how are you following sports? Well, I was just doing it. I was in Marseille for the last three months. Like the DirecTV app? Like, what are you doing? Yeah, yeah. And watching, you know, watching on a sling box, you know, and, and, and watching the game, like piping it into my hotel room through a computer and just watching it. So, but it's, but the, the night games are, you know, if I'm working the next day, it's really tough. I mean, I, for the Superbowl, I would always stay up the second, the, the second Superbowl. We, when we beat the Panthers,

that was the night before I shot that apology scene in the Bourne Supremacy. So I was in Berlin and I had the whole crew over and I stayed up all night because I was supposed to be ravaged in that scene. I'm supposed to be bleeding out. And I'm like, I have an idea. I just won't sleep tonight. Yeah. And, you know, and I'll show up and I go. And so I did that scene just, you know, having banged up, just just banged up and just did it. And it worked out great. The last time you did the podcast, you didn't tell the story about the 2008 finals when you sat next to the Lakers bench. I didn't tell the story. No, you did not tell the story. Can we tell the story? Well, first of all, Phil Jackson told you to fuck off. He told me to sit down and shut the fuck up. That's what he told me.

So what, what led to that? 2008 finals, you get into it with Phil Jackson. What happens? Okay, so we were, I think it was game five, I want to say. I can't remember now. I think it was game four. The comeback game? No, well, we came back in that game too. Yeah.

This was in LA. But the game before, we had been down like 23 points in the third quarter, and we'd come back and won. Yeah. So that game, we down, it's there at home, the Lakers, I mean, and, and we're down 21, 22 points in the third quarter. And Paul Pierce just, just, just goes full truth mode. Yeah. Just goes bananas. And, and, and they have this unbelievable comeback and Wahlberg was sitting like we had, our agent has four floor seats and Wahlberg and I asked for two each. And so we were, the four of us were there.

And, and we're up, we're standing up and we're the only people on the floor. This is game four, 2008 finals. Yes. Yeah. And,

and, and we're, and we're screaming, you know, it's, it's, it's, you know,

we're, we're, we're cheering on the Celtics as you do. And the, their run was capped by, I think, Pierce kind of sliced through the lane and, like, laid the ball in to complete the comeback, right? And the Lakers ended up winning that game, by the way.

So this wasn't the game where we came back and won. This was the game we came back and lost. But we won the series eventually. But when he completed this this comeback in the third quarter phil by the time he went up to lay the ball and phil's already up because he's calling a timeout because he's got to stop the bleeding and walberg and i are like oh my god and as he calls the timeout and he just spins on us and he goes sit down and shut the fuck up it's so mad which i get look it's like you know i can't imagine if i'm having a bad day at work and And he goes, sit down and shut the fuck up. It's so mad.

Which I get. Look, it's like, you know, I can't imagine if I'm having a bad day at work and there are fucking people cheering for my, you know, my pain. Right. So, but like, we're like, how's the Zen stuff working? You know, it was great. Anyway, so that was my one factoring into the great tapestry of the Lakers-Celtics rivalry. But you saw Kobe on the bench, too, being hard on his teammates, I thought. That was in there, too. I remember him saying, get them the fuck out of my way.

He had that killer, like, just fucking clear everybody out. I'm doing it. Just get them the fuck out of my way. And when the game started, he ran past us and goes, not tonight, motherfuckers. Like he was, you know, which is great. That's what you want. That's good. Deep down you admired it.

Of course. Of course. I like we all deep down admire the Lakers. We just could never say that. I'm still getting there. Really? With Magic Johnson? No, I admire the Lakers. We just could never say that. I'm still getting there. Really? With Magic Johnson? No, I admire those Lakers.

This current Lakers team with LeBron and AD. I haven't watched them play yet. I've been out of the country. I did some podcasts before the season. I was making fun of the Dwight Howard part of this. I was like, there's no way. I can't wait for the Laker fans to talk themselves into him. And he's been really good the first two weeks.

Hey, hey, you chuck yourself into Dwight yet? So it's going. It's good. But the Lakers, the Lakers-Boston thing is great. It's going to be there for our whole lives. And we hate each other. And then the Yankees-Red Sox thing is really fun, too. Although I wonder, like, do your kids, do they care about baseball at all?

Not really. I mean, they care. They see that their dad cares. So they, you know. I don't know what happens to baseball. I know. I'm concerned. Yeah.

I mean, I haven't looked at any of the numbers of viewership and stuff. It just feels kind of anecdotally like it's falling off. And yet, you know, talking to people on the film set out in France, the Americans, you know, the people who are our age still,

you know, that was, we were following that series kind of online, the Nationals Astros series. It definitely comes and goes faster. I remember the Diamondbacks-Yankees World Series, whatever that was, Game 7. Yeah, shilling. I feel like everybody I knew in my entire life watched that game. Well, that was 2001.

That was right after 9-11, too. Yeah. And that was the game where they had just taxed. Buster only wrote a really good book about that series. Yeah, he did. Last Days of the Yankee Dynasty. Yeah, yeah. Which is why Boston people are like, it's called Last Days of the Yankee Dynasty.

I want to read that. Right. But his point, which was really good, was they had just relied so much on Rivera. Because Rivera was just, I mean just the greatest of all time. And he just got to that. I mean, I remember Mark Grace's at-bat in the ninth inning of that game. He started it off and everyone was talking about it and nobody could get away from Rivera's cutter. And Grace had that beautiful swing and he's just sitting there.

And that first cutter came in and it just missed and i think some you know maybe it was joe tim mccarver somebody said like that was like his entire like an entire career of being like a world-class hitter for him to understand that not to swing at that you know and grace ended up working and he and grace i hit the, had the most solid base hit in that inning because remember Gonzalez's little flare thing. He was a dinker.

And that's a guy who went from hitting, what was it like? It was like 16 to 52. Eight home runs to hitting to 57 or whatever it is. And you're like, sure.

Right. What a coincidence. You know what I mean? And even he, with that body of his, could only kind of barely get that thing. I mean,

it was a very unlikely win for that team. And Kostner was on this pod like about three, four months ago, and he was talking about for love of the game. And he told this story that I actually thought was going to be a bigger deal. I'm not one of those like, man, I hope this blows up, but he's basically like they're making him throw 200 pitches a day or whatever. And he was getting help from the Yankee training staff. And by the end of the filming, he had to do this one long day where, and he just like his shoulder was shot and basically asked the Yankee trainer. And this was like 1999, like whatever you've been afraid to give me before, give it to me today. And the guy's like, all right, this is going to make you

growl a little. He gave it to him and Kosta went out and threw for like seven hours. Wow. And was like barking at people. And I was like, this is great. We finally have a direct tie to the Yankees. Right, right, right, right. They're the four World Series, but nobody cared. No, it had been like the Patriots, everybody.

Oh, it was Belichick. Can you imagine if the New England Patriots traitor had said something? Yeah. This movie you just made. First of all, I really liked it. Good. I liked it good i liked it i like movies with like stars just being stars and a plot i can understand what i wasn't expecting was how like gripping the last 40 minutes were yeah really like yeah you know sometimes you it's like oh i bet there's gonna be a big race but the the whole thing is just and everyone in theater was like super quiet

people were just really into it it's really good great thanks man I'm really happy with it and I don't you know it's you don't get a lot of scripts it's like going back to the Once Upon a Time in Hollywood

where it's where it's you know an original idea that is not franchisable it's not you know there aren't a lot of opportunities to do that anymore and they're becoming fewer and fewer so yeah it was it was it was an easy yes for me because it's a great director you know which is the first thing i look for so jim mangold is he did walk the line and and logan and yeah it's just great um and he'd worked with christian before on 310 to yuma which was an underseen really good western Western. Have you seen that? Yeah.

Yeah. With Christian and Russell Crowe. It's really good. Um, and, uh, and so that, so Jim doing it and then being able to work with Christian, I was like, this is a, this is a no brainer. And he did it again. He created some character that was some new version of Christian Bale. Yeah.

I mean, there's the, uh, the guy that he plays is a real, uh, guy named Ken Miles. And, uh, and there was some existing footage of, of Ken and, and, uh, Christian does a really good job of inhabiting that. Are you ready to hear from the car nerds? Yeah. I mean, I think I've already, that's not a real GT40. I could tell cause they're all going to come out. Well, when we did, we did some press with these car magazines and car shows the other day.

And on one podcast, the guy was like, well, you know, or in one of the interviews, he goes, I mean, I, you know, I was, I liked the movie so much that I was willing to forgive the things that weren't true. And Christian goes, hang on. You know, we were doing the thing together. What are you talking about? Like, let's dig into that. What do you mean? Wasn't what details weren't true? And he goes, well, Carroll Shelby was six, three. I'm like, goes, what are you talking about? Like, let's dig into that. What do you mean wasn't, what details weren't true? And he goes,

well, Carroll Shelby was 6'3". I'm like, that's what bothered you? My height? That's the problem? That's the problem? This happened to you again.

This happened to you with the rugby movie. Yeah, no, exactly. Was the guy's name Botha? No, Francois Pinard.

Francois Pinard. Botha's the boxer. Botha's the boxer. I knew it was a Francois. Francois Pinard. And South Africa just won the World Cup. Yeah. But that guy was like 6'5".

He was even bigger than Shelby. I mean, he was much bigger than Shelby. He looked like a linebacker. That guy won Le Mans and he was 6'3". He's a big guy. He was in like a 1955 Porsche. Some of those guys are tall. Like the GT40 had a little bubble on the driver's side.

And it was called the Gurney bubble. Cause Dan Gurney was, was, was pretty tall. Um, and, and the only way, I mean, I get in that car and it's like, you know, that when the door opens, the roof opens with it, you know? So if you're tall, it's going to take your head off when you shut it, the whole thing comes and closes on you. So even I get in there and I'm like, this is, it's funny. Cause there's this whole market for those cars from the sixties and seventies. I love those cars. Yeah, they're beautiful. The thing is, if you're driving any of those around in LA, it's like in any pothole. Oh, I mean, yeah. Where are you going to even drive that?

I guess you'd have to live in the country. Yeah. And also, I mean, the systems in them, like the brakes were the weakest link in the car, whereas now they're the strongest. Yeah, yeah, yeah. the brakes were the weakest link in the car, whereas now they're the strongest. Malcolm Gladwell did that thing about it where he took a car to the test track and you could just override. The brakes are so good now that you could just override everything with the brake,

even if your foot is on the accelerator. Whereas in 66, when these guys were racing, those brakes were like melting. Like they literally didn't know if the cars were going to stop and they were doing 230 miles an hour coming up at a wall, not knowing if they could stop. So, I read you guys didn't film the racing scenes yourself because you would have thought, like, the actual.

You had to do, like, a mix, right? Yeah. Well, some of it's, yeah, second unit. Some of it's, like, real race car drivers doing it. So, it wasn't one of those things where they had you at the track for seven months trying to learn. Christian went. Christian, because you want to look like you know how to drive, right?

You want your hands to be in the right place. But I'm saying like he's not, now he's not going to start entering tournaments because of all the skills he's learned. No, that's the thing. It's like you kind of, as an actor, you end up as a jack of all trades and a master of none.

You know how to approximate how somebody does something, but that doesn't mean you can do it. These race car driving is like anything. The guys who are great have been doing it since they were little, little, little kids. And that's all they've been doing. Yeah, they were racing go-karts when they were like seven. Yeah. Let's take a break to talk about ZipRecruiter.

Sports teams face many challenges. Look at the Red Sox. They win the World Series in 2018. And now, 14 months later, we're here freaking out that they're not going to keep Mookie Betts. It's a challenge. Maybe they should have figured out the payroll better. Well, Codable co-founder Gretchen Huebner faced her own challenge. She needed to hire a game artist, so she went to ZipRecruiter, posted her job, and

found the right person in less than two weeks. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate through the site within the first day. Right now, you can try ZipRecruiter for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash BSZipRecruiter. The smartest way to hire. Meanwhile, the rewatchables

is going this week. We did the holiday. My wife is on this. It's Amanda Dobbins, Julia Libman, and my wife. So that's happening. And if you love Matt Damon, which you probably do because you're still listening to this podcast, we've done a couple of Matt Damon episodes on the rewatchables.

We did Rounders. We did Good Will Hunting. We're doing Talented Mr. Ripley at the end of this year. Don't tell anybody it's supposed to be a surprise. But if you like Matt Damon, go into our Rewatchables archives and listen to those. Let's get back to Matt. What are some other weird things you've learned how to do? It can be really random, like the Bourne Supremacy, that scene where she gets shot,

the car goes off a bridge into the water. So I had to shoot a scene underwater where I was in a car underwater and I had to swim upside down and get air in the little corner pocket. And so, so it instantly, if you have any tendency towards claustrophobia or any, you know, any fear of water or drowning, and I don't have a fear of the water, but, but I, I worked with, I, I, I flagged it as something that might be a problem. Cause the other thing is you're going to get in a water tank. They're going to fill it with milk and a bunch of particulate so that it looks like a river

and you're not going to be able to see, you know, so you're taking away like a few of your scent. You can't breathe. You can't see you're underwater and you need conditions to change to survive. So you're going to, you're instantly going to go into lizard brain a little bit yeah but what they did was they just took me to a swimming pool and uh and we built out a pvc pipe um a car like a box right and we we did it i did it underwater like i put the thing together with with the stunt guys and then we would practice going down and swimming into it and sitting there and then taking my air away. And so it's all of this, these scuba diving techniques, but I never got certified as a scuba diver. Right. So it's like, I can, you know, at the end they were like, you should really just

go get your scuba license because you've kind of done everything, but I just kind of never did it. But I learned how to be underwater without air and without being able to see, you know what I mean? And without panicking. So the goal is to make it look as seamless as possible. It's always a magic trick. So you just kind of troubleshoot. What is it that's going to make you think, see how I'm doing the magic trick. So in that scene, it's like, you get all those conditions. You have a bunch of different people,

people who are underwater filming specialists or people, you know, you get the car, you make it safe. You may, you know, cause she's in that scene too. She's dead she's already been shot so but she's still got to hold her breath and get her tank taken away and you have safety divers with you and a whole system to kind of do it so that and it's a really exciting really tense sequence and it's also a really emotional sequence right because yeah he's realizing as the audience is realizing oh my god she's dead and he lets her go in the water and she floats away and it's like so it's a really important part of the movie so um then rounders you learned how to play cards but you you actually like that that was

really fun well that was i mean you guys you guys were all good casinos we will and and it was this really underground game then right yeah these clubs and you had to get buzzed in through the door and you had to go look up at the camera like the way it is in the movie. You had to do that stuff. And Edward and I really got into it. I mean, we were in our late 20s and it just felt really fun, like and cool. And, you know, it was a different world. It's like, you know, you're in New York City and suddenly you take a right turn and go down a stairway and suddenly, you know, you walk in and you hear the chips flying and the people, you know, and it's, and it's like, oh my God, this is like a whole subculture that I didn't know was here. What about rugby? Do you have to learn that whole thing? Well, I realized right away that, that, uh, that there's no way, like,

unlike I'd done a football movie with school ties, right? And it's like, all right, here's the play. And you do the X's and O's and you know you're going to run right between the guard and the tackle. And it's a very scripted thing. Whereas rugby is just a free-for-all. Yeah. And I realized right away, the ball goes down and you get in the mall. And you go, there's no way to ensure that someone's not going to step on your face. And if someone steps on your face with

cleats, like the movie shuts down for a week while you heal. Right. And so, so what we did, like most of that movie, we were shooting the rugby stuff and Clint Eastwood had his little monitor, you know, cause he's out on the field watching the movie, you know, watching what the camera's seeing. And I'm standing next to him, like going, Ooh, that looked tough. Oh, that looked painful. So I didn't do a lot of- You threw the big black in school ties though. What's that? You threw the big black in school ties.

I did, I did. Brendan Fraser just throws me down. Yeah. Would be another one. I forget, there's two good football scenes. I actually liked him as a quarterback. I thought he was realistic. Well, we had a kid named,

I believe his name was Billy Scharr. And Billy was the quarterback at Syracuse. He took him to the Peach Bowl. And that kid, I mean, it was the first time I saw an NFL arm. He didn't make it to the NFL, but he had an NFL arm. And I remember because we would have throwing competitions. And I threw, I was 21 years old. I turned 21 on that movie.

And my best was 58 yards. I threw a football 58 yards i was really proud of billy would throw at 70 yards jesus but more importantly than throwing it 70 75 yards was he would throw it 40 yards on a rope he threw the first time i i did like a deep post just messing around we were just kind of warming up it was the weirdest thing and i've subsequently read receivers who talk about, they go, you see the ball when it's halfway to you and you have a lifetime of like knowing how, you know, and it just gets there faster and it goes through your hands. Cause you just weren't ready,

you know? And it's like a car speeding up or something. It feels like it speeds up. It's like that movie fastball where they talk about that thing where the people say the ball rises. Cause that's what it looks like. That's the phenomenon for them. It was, it was, it went through my hands and I was like, I saw you throw it. There's nobody guarding me. It's not even like, I'm just, we're just messing around. And it was just this incredible velocity that it had. And I went, wow, that's another, that's another level. Do you ever throw with Brady? No, I would love to. I would love it. We did the thing where, where he and Jimmy came over and he threw the ball through the window. Did you see that?

Oh, yeah. And he put it right on. They put that little sugar glass and that little, you know, little cross. I mean, he put the point of the football on that. Oh, so they didn't use like wizardry or anything? No, he threw a ball through the window. But like exactly in the spot that he had. He just did that.

They were like, all right. So, Tom, you want to throw it through that window? He's like, okay. Where's the Kimmel Feud stand these days? It's on hiatus? What happens? No, we're still going. It's still, I mean, we're still, I think he still ends the show that way every night.

I haven't been seeing the whole show because I've been in France, but I've been watching a lot of his monologues. I usually try to see what he and Molly are up to. Did we ever talk about how I was working on the show when he started doing that? Oh, really? I didn't know that. Yeah. That's why I moved to LA, right for when he was launching it. Oh, my God.

And the first couple months, we couldn't get any guests after the first week. Right, right. And Leno, and it was basically Leno, but it was just squashing Letterman too. But it was more Leno because it was the LA show. LA, New York. And if you're coming to LA, you're going to pick one 1130. And so Leno was just basically like, if you go on Kimmel Show, you'll never come on mine. Oh, I didn't know that.

So within a month, we're booking the Who Wants to Be a Millionaire run up winner and stuff like that. And it was so frustrating. And then at the end of the show, as he started doing them, my apologies to Matt Damon, we ran out of time. It was like an inside joke that we couldn't get any guests. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, as he described it to me, when I went to do that primetime thing, it was the first time I ever met him. Yeah. And I was like, what's the deal, man? Why me? Like, what? And he goes, honestly, I just, he could have said anybody. Yeah. and he goes honestly i just he could have said anybody yeah and he goes i just said he goes i think i had a ventriloquist and a guy in a monkey suit as my yeah and i just that's what it was like and he goes and i just said my apologies and that day and he goes and i saw my

producer right behind the camera doubled over laughing because then i just started doing it but whenever i see him it's just like you know he and molly you know who's his wife and also his head writers she's you know they're like this behaves like no other joke in the history. It's the same stupid joke. And he goes, it gets a laugh. People are expecting it. And people must ask you about it all the time, right? In airports and everywhere, people are like, fuck Jimmy Kimmel.

It's like a constant thing. What was the feedback for the Brett Kavanaugh stuff on SNL? I just got asked about that this morning on NPR. It was the first time, uh, there wasn't much feedback that, that I, I mean, I just, cause I thought it was just really funny. It was fun to do like a cameo that you could play this really distinct. I just thought, I don't think those celebrity cameos usually work for them like in that kind of way.

And I actually thought that worked. I did, too. I thought that because Kavanaugh was so out of control in that hearing that, like, that all I had to do was just do what he did. Right. Like, that weird sniffle thing. Like, you know, that, like, every time a woman questioned him, he's like, you know, like, what is up with this guy? And so it's, you know, the beer stuff, like, you know, you just. And the three friends that he had.

Yeah, right, right. Squee, and he's starting to cry. And it's like, oh, my God, this is like. You kind of dipped into the school ties guy for that character. Yeah, well, that's what it is. Yeah, it's the boarding school dickhead guy. Exactly what it is, yeah. Yeah, you just play that guy.

So with the last time we did this, I didn't know after 2017, you went away for a while. You took your family and you went. I did. I went to Australia. That was one of my. Because there were all these rumors online that you moved to Australia and all this stuff. But you actually did go away for like nine months, right? It was like three or four months.

Yeah. Oh, that was it? I thought it was longer. Yeah. No, it was about three or four months i think four yeah and what'd you do just camp we did a lot to get away from civilization yeah it was right after my dad died yeah and uh and we we just uh um i don't know you know we have friends down there for one and then it was a place my dad had never been. I think maybe there was something about me that wanted to, you know, I don't know.

But also so much kind of came rushing back to me about my relationship to my dad. And, you know, my brother and I would talk about it. Like we suddenly started remembering all these like shitty camping trips. You know, where we go to, you know, that weren't. I mean, I say shitty as a joke because it's like, you know, you drive out we go to you know that weren't i mean i say shitty as a joke because it's like you know you drive out to the cape and you get a campground and and it's like and it's and it's so awesome and uh and i was like well let's make some let's go on an adventure like let's do something like we got this time with the kids let's go let's just go

and your kids weren't like too old where it would have been they would have killed them they get pulled out of school for five months. Right. And no, well, we, well, we also like, we did it this year from, I think we went with, we brought two teachers with us. We went, let's go. Let's really. And we, they were interacting with the school.

And so it was like. Oh, that's good. Yeah. And those, I mean, and we're kind of used to that for movies. Sometimes we'll, we'll, we'll go and bring teachers who kind of interface with the school and, and academically the kids will get ahead. Like you don't, you don't want to do it too much uh i mean just because school isn't just about obviously reading and writing it's like the social stuff and the negotiation skills and all the stuff

that goes along with uh with your development is so it's so crucial to be around other other other kids yeah um but uh but to do it as an adventure and to really set it up with them as an adventure like this is where this is what we're doing because they've you know we moved back to boston for that year my dad was sick yeah i mean he was sick for years but when he was really sick and and uh and and and it was a really tough year but i'm glad that they got to see that they they got to they got closure in closure in, I think, a very healthy way. And they got to see what a family does, right? Right.

And appreciate that and understand that. And so they understood that trip as what it was, right? Like, all right, you know, this is our family. Like, let's go. Right. It seems like you've really protected that family side. Like, people don't know that much about what you're doing privately. And you have about as normal of a family life as you're going to have

considering your position in life, you know? Because I think it could go sideways in a lot of different ways. Yeah. In the wrong hands. It can, and it still can. I mean, there's,'s you know the online stuff like i you know it is kids will only start investigate you know they'll start investigating their yeah when they're like 10 yeah yeah like what you know which is now you know i've got a 13 and 11 and a nine-year-old so

um that's weird i remember my son he was like nine or 10. He's like, dad, this thing on YouTube, this guy hates you. Why are you looking at me on YouTube? He's like, I don't them. Right. Right. Um, but, uh, but yeah, I mean, that's a, that's definitely a consideration and, um, cause you just don't want it to infect your dynamic with your kid, you know, or really any of your, any of your real relationships, right. There's a, you know, there's the outside world and the, and, and the inside world and the inside world. It's like, you don't want, you don't want the dynamics between you and the people who are closest to you to be at all infected by this superficial celebrity thing right well i think about that with affleck a lot because he's you know his life is just covered in a totally different way that's yeah really damaging i think in a lot of different ways but

especially like he's going to get coffee and there's people seeing if he looks all right or, oh my God, he grew a beard. What's going on here? It's really intrusive. It's really intrusive, particularly, you know, because, you know, part of the, you know, recovery is, you know, about anonymity, right? And that's a crucial part of it. So for somebody to be in that situation and have it and, and, and have the added pressure of that whole element is just really, it's, it doesn't feel fair, but it is what it is. What's your next thing with him? Well, we wrote something together that, uh, along with a, this unbelievable writer, uh, her name's Nicole Holofcener and she's just great. And, uh, so the three of us wrote this, um, this movie, it's about medieval France and it was, it's called the last duel. And it's about the last sanctioned duel in medieval France,

which was between two knights, one of whom claimed the other raped his wife. And, and so it's this really smoothy about perspective. And so Ben and I wrote the male perspectives and, and Nicole wrote the female perspective. And, and I think it's really, potentially could be really interesting. So that was the first time you've written something with him? Yeah. Since 93, 94, 95? Yeah. Yeah.

In fact, 90, when we start that one, 90, 93. Yeah. 93. We sold it in 94. Then we kept working on it and it came out in 97. Because you did the, you bought the Fritz Peterson thing, which I thought would have been an awesome movie. It's interesting.

We talked about— I still feel like you could do that one. I don't know. But I think we will write more. It was interesting. Good Will Hunting took us such a long time, and I think we always told ourselves and each other we just don't have time to write.

We're never really in the same place for very long. And then this one we wrote so fast. And I think it's because in the intervening 25 years, we did nothing but make movies. So we know so much more about it now. And, you know, it's just our process was so much more streamlined that without even trying to, we didn't set a deadline for ourself. We didn't, we just, I just show up at his house or he'd show up at my house and we'd write for three hours. It's like, we'd take the kids to school or do, and then we'd just go grab a coffee and go sit down and start working. And like, suddenly it was like, wait, we have 20

pages? Like, I think they're good. Like I read them again last year. I think these are good. And he's like, yeah, I know I do. I think these are good too. Suddenly we have 35 pages like i think they're good yeah i read them again last year i think these are good he's like yeah i know i do i think these are good too suddenly we have 35 pages and before we knew it we had two-thirds of our movie you know and nicole is every bit as fast i mean she's a professional writer yeah she's great and she's like you know faster than we are and suddenly it's like wait we have 150 pages guys guys. We got to pair this down. You guys should have gone to like the Soho house and just like when the writers go and they write at the Soho house.

Just got that table. No, we just- We would have caused a ruckus. I don't want to do it in public. Wait, we're now at the point, most important part of this podcast, where you tell the Red Sox ownership how awful it would be if they lost Mookie Betts.

We cannot lose Mookie Betts. I'll give you the floor. There's no world in which we can lose Mookie. That would be... I'm more upset about this than just about anything right now. There is no world in which we can lose Mookie Betts. I'm still trying to understand it and wrap my head around it because you can look up all the figures

and see how much money they make from the team. Yeah. I'm sorry they spent some of the money maybe incorrectly or they have some regrets, but I don't feel like I have to lose out on Mookie Betts. Like I had Mookie penciled in for the next 12 years of my life. Yeah. Through 2031. I was like, well, that guy's going to be in my life. Yeah. He's my two kids. He's a generational guy. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, he's got to stay

in the Red Sox uniform. There's no, it's got, I, the first time you saw him in a uniform that wasn't a Red Sox uniform, do you think you'd cry? Well, right.

You're old enough to remember this, how traumatic it was when Fisk came back on the White Sox. That was honestly one of the worst my my code to my house in new york when we used there used to be a keypad and it was it was uh uh it was 7227 really yeah that was so traumatic lost him to any any reverse the numbers and i

just as a kid for some reason i saw that as like oh my god yeah it was like a personal attack on us yeah but it was like but it was a righteous one yeah how dare we trade this guy you know what I mean it's like he was the soul of you know well it was worse than that because they wanted him to leave and they mailed this contract a day late intentionally which made him a free agent I think if that listen if that happened now, that would have been insane. But we have, and we have owner, we have a very different style of ownership, brand of ownership now too, right? We're very lucky. We're incredibly lucky. Well, that's why I'm so hurt by this. I don't know. I feel like they've, for the most part, made really good decisions. I don't

understand why they don't see this would be bad because you're talking,'s, for people under 15, he's the most popular guy on the team. Yeah. Just flat out. He's the high number one and then it's like whoever's next. But I think it's weird they don't see that part. I just hope he stays. My gut feeling is that they'll eventually realize, oh wait,

this would be absolutely idiotic. We shouldn't do this. Yeah, I can't imagine they wouldn't. I mean, I really can't. They've been really smart about almost everything. They've been very smart. Come on, don't look skeptically at me. No, I'm agreeing with you.

That's why I'm so confused by this. We've won four World Series in the last 15 years. It's amazing. They've made good decisions for them. The sale extension was not great. Probably wouldn't have done that one just because I didn't know what his health was like. But for the most part, they've been really smart.

That's why I'm so confused. But tell me this. When they brought Sale out in the ninth inning of game five, that was the filthiest thing I've ever seen. And I started laughing. I was like, oh, my God. It was the first time I ever allowed myself during any of these World Series runs to say, we're going to win before we won. Yeah. How you would never,

ever do that. Like I didn't do it when, when, when the ground ball came back to folk and he started running towards first base trip. Yeah. I was like, it hasn't happened yet.

I'm not saying it, but when they brought sale in, in the ninth inning, I was like, that is nasty. That is disgusting. Well, it was just the filthiest thing to do.

It's like, we're not going to need you tomorrow night, big fella. Why don't you come in and pitch one inning when we're up by however many runs we are? And it's just the most demoralizing, and I loved it. It was pretty great. But I remember the 06 when A-Rod hit Bronson Arroyo's glove. Yeah.

And then Jeter goes around third, somebody scored, and all the Red Sox DNA came back where it was like, oh, we're going to get completely fucked on this call. This is going to turn the series around. We're going to lose because they missed this play. And then they actually made the right call. They talked about it. Francona argued it. Yeah.

And then it was like the calls reversed. A-Rod's out. And A-Rod did the whole, what did I do? Yeah, what did I do? What do you mean? And then it was, no, but it was like we're in a new world like I remember like going to the parade in uh in 04 I drove up um and uh from New York with uh Lucy wasn't my we weren't married yet and uh but we were together and we came up for the

parade I said we have to be there and my brother's kids were still little so we went over to my dad's and we were and they wanted to see him the duck boats when they went into the charles so they were going to go down to the river and i was like i just i gotta run up to i'm gonna run up to boylston street i just i'm gonna see the duck boats twice yeah they're gonna go by i'm gonna wave and wave at all the guys and then i'm gonna run down to the river and i'll meet you and i ran up by myself so that i could see the duck boats go by and i sat on the corner and like by myself yeah grown man i was 34 years old and the and the boats went by and i looked at those guys and i started crying really swear to god crying and literally people are like are you you mad, Damien? I'm like, no, no, I'm not.

I'm his brother. I just look like him. But I was so, because it felt like something had changed forever. Yeah. In a really incredible way. And it is that thing in 06 where you go, no, you know what? The fucking call is going to go our way. Yeah.

Because it's fair. We're going to get a fair shake this time. I remember the first time during that whole four-game run, Tony Clark hit that double down the line in one of those games. It was a game four, game five, one of the X-training games. And it landed, and then it bounced into the stands over just rolling around. They would have scored.

And I remember when that happened going like, all right, that's weird. Normally we get fucked on that. That's weird that that played out that way. And it was just a collection of moments like that. So it might be, that might be the moment, right? When the Matrix got taken over by like the teenager. It was either that or 16 when the Chicago Cubs win finally

and Donald Trump becomes president and like everything just goes, you go like, wait, there's a lot of unlikely stuff that seems to be happening. I would say the Cubs thing's weirder because that was what, six days before Trump? No, it was right then. It was literally, yeah, it all stuff. Like it was like, let's just change the dials really quickly. Let's just start. Let's just see what happens. See what happens to these guys. If all of their expectations are totally upset and we just see how they live. Like, let's see, you know, in that simulation where those versions of those people live.

Let's just take a look and see how they react to this. What are you going to, you turn 50 next year. What are you going to care about? How's your life going to change? I turned 50 six weeks ago. It's fine. It's good. Water's nice.

It's fine. Jump on in. It's great. Did anything change? No. You do. The one thing I thought of was I'm not in the 18 to 49 ad demo anymore. This is your last year in that demo where you're just going oh i'm in the demo now that's

just discarded but yeah but i advertised i had that conversation with my father years ago probably 10 years ago we were we were it was christmas time i had some movie coming out and we were driving up to uptown in a cab or no and we would have been in a car if i was promoting stuff and uh and uh well i was probably going to do like a morning talk show or something i don't know but we're driving up like park avenue yeah um uh and you know in the 20s and in the 30s and and we're going by bus stops with all these all the movies that are coming out and my dad's looking and he's quiet for a long time he goes matthew jeez i don't want to see any of these movies that

I'm seeing advertised on the bus stop. And I started laughing. I said, pop, if you wanted to see any of these movies, then someone's losing their job. Right. Because you're not the guy we're trying to get. Like, you know, and we started laughing about that. It's like, you're right. You're, you're, you're, you're in this discarded demographic that goes like, I'm not. But look at my dad now. He watches all three of those Chicago shows. They're all in a row. It's like Chicago Fire, Chicago PD, and Chicago Med.

Right, right, whatever. And he watches them all in a row. And I'm like, which one's your favorite? And he was like, I just like them all. They're all really good. Are we good to go? Yeah, I think we're good to go. Yeah, okay. Was that an hour? Yeah, I think we're good to go. Yeah, okay.

Was that an hour? Yeah, I think we're good. That was fast. Ford versus Ferrari. Yes. November 15th. And then potentially one of the great best actor categories of all time. Could be everybody.

Could be all your peers. It's so weird. I never thought of this movie like that. I thought of it like a crowd pleaser. It's the rare combo. It's the crowd pleaser that's also really good, which just doesn't happen that much anymore. Right, right.

No, it definitely worked out. I'm really happy with it. But it was supposed to come out in June, and they held it for this season. I think that's the right move. I hope so. It'll work out. We'll know on November 16th. Things have worked out for you really since that Tony Clark thing.

Maybe even a little bit before that. Maybe that was, yeah. Maybe the matrix code got rewritten for all of us. Matt David, the sequel was good. Thank you. Thanks, man. Thanks, man. Thanks so much to the one and the only Matt Damon.

Thanks to Kevin O'Connor. Thanks to State Farm. Thanks to Sonos. This holiday season, immerse yourself in all your favorite holiday classics with a new home theater system from Sonos. You don't even have to get like crazy ambitious and get something that covers your whole house. Just get the Sonos Move.

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Go to square.com slash go slash BS to see all the ways you can take your business from square one to whatever's next. Two more podcasts for me coming this week. One more at the book of basketball 2.0. And then Thursday, we're going to get, try to get back in the horse with football. And we're also going to talk about the morning show and Apple and a couple other things. So until then, see ya.