The Bill Simmons Podcast - NBA All-Star Arguments: The East With Zach Lowe

Episode Date: January 11, 2023

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by ESPN's Zach Lowe to argue for all 12 spots for the Eastern Conference All-Stars! Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Zach Lowe Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, TV fans, if you're excited about the season of 1923, or if you're excited about the upcoming season of The Last of Us, go check out the Prestige TV podcast. We're covering both, including Sunday Night, right after The Last of Us ends on HBO, Van Latham, Charles Holmes, breaking it down. The Prestige TV podcast. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite.

I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this, it's game day, all the gangs here, you're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're standing at the grill and the smell of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that. Or when you want a light beer that tastes like beer, that's delicious. You don't want to load up on those heavier beers and then you only have two of them.

Then you feel tired. Your stomach feels full. Miller Lite, it's your friend. It just accompanies whatever else you're doing. You're super happy with it. Opening an ice cold Miller Lite can signal the beginning of Miller time. Miller Lite is the light beer

with all the great beer tastes we like. 90 calories per 355 mil can. So why not grab some Miller Lites today? Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. You know me, I can't go a day without sports. I really can't.

And now Monday nights are all about hockey. That's right. There's a new exclusive home for streaming Monday night NHL hockey. And it's on Prime. All season long, watch Prime Monday night hockey deliver unreal plays, the biggest goals, can't miss moments.

Matthews, McDavid, Crosby, the NHL's best. They're all on Prime. Prime Monday Night Hockey. It's on Monday. It's on Prime. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where I put up a new rewatchables on Monday night. We did Sideways, me, Sean Fennessey, Chris Ryan.

My mom loved it, which is all I care about. That's her favorite movie, or at least one of her top five. I am also going to be on Off the Pike with Brian Barrett on Wednesday. Me and him and Kevin Hensch are going to do the State of the Red Sox and the State of the Patriots. We're not happy about this Trevor story, just FYI. Spoiler alert for that podcast when it goes up tomorrow. Also tomorrow on FanDuel Sportsbook, I always do a same game parlay of a Wednesday NBA game. I'm going to be putting that on my Twitter feed. If you follow me on Twitter, trying to figure out a perfect like four to one, five to one off one of the games. So stay tuned for that. On this podcast, Hall of Fame guest, Zach Lowe, my old Grantland teammate. We are doing a home

and home this week. He's coming on this pod today. I'm going to his pod on Friday. It is all coming up next. First, our friends from Pro Geo. All right, taping this 1 o'clock Pacific time, Tuesday. My old friend Zach Lowe is here. We're doing a home and home this week. We're going to pick all-star starters and then go through some of the other all-star stuff in the East. And then we're going to do the West on his pod, the low post, later this week, probably Friday. This has been the hardest pick the all-star starter conference I've ever looked

at in my entire life. I struggled with it. I changed guys around. I had a Google doc. I'm moving people up. I'm moving people down. I could not settle on five guys. This is impossible. Do you ever remember it being this hard? Usually we had to struggle to get to a fifth guy. Now it's like there's eight guys. Who do we pick? Well, part of it is, and I kind of shirked the assignment a little bit

because I just ignored the fact that Jason Tatum is in danger of getting squeezed out of the starting lineup and just put Jason Tatum in my starting five because it's ridiculous not to have him start. So I had four locked in starters and just like one spot that actually did in that construction. I did not have a hard time with my starting five. But again, I cheated and I haven't looked at the NBA's ballot yet because I don't know. Are you a voter for this? Like you vote for this?

I am a voter for this. Have we gotten that? I don't know if we've gotten the ballot. Do you want to vote on this? But a voter for this have we gotten I don't know if we've gotten the ballot like we just got the do you want to vote on this but haven't gotten the ballot yet I mean can we just list Tatum as like what are we doing if Jason Tatum has to come off the bench

in the all-star game potentially because we have to start guard X it's ridiculous just put him in the starting lineup well the cause I had a hard time with it because you didn't cheat like me no I felt like I was cheating in a different way. I'm just, Giannis is going to be on my first team. He just is.

He's starting for me. And if I have to start him at center and I have to cheat a little bit, I'm just doing that. So the question for me, I mean, the first hard part was Giannis, Durant, Tatum, and Embiid. Who's the odd man out? Nobody. Nobody. Oh, you're going nobody. So you're going Tatum and Embiid. Who's the odd man out? Nobody. Nobody. Oh, you're going nobody. So you're going Tatum at guard.

You're putting everybody in. Is this just fear of the Philly fans? What is it? No, it's just like, they're the four best players in the conference and it's like clear. And what are we doing? Put them all in the all-star starting five.

All right, but that's not fun. Then we just wrap the podcast up and I'll say goodbye to you and thank Kyle. Like we have to make this hard. Let's say we have to obey the rules to some degree. Like Jason Tatum's not a guard. Jalen Brown, you could really make an actual case that he might actually be a guard.

What's the difference? Yeah, maybe there isn't a difference. But let's say just for fun, you had to pick three of the four. Who's your odd man out? You have to have an odd man out. I think odd man out then is Embiid just because of games played and availability. Although now Durant's hurt, that's complicated. But I mean, it's like these are

going to be three of the five players on people's MVP. It's ridiculous how hard this is going to be. But I think just availability, it would be Embiid, which is ridiculous because every time he plays, it's like, oh, 40, 20, and five for Embiid. But yeah, I think it would have to be him.

All right, let's go through the guys in order for the starters. So Giannis, who's at 32, 12, and five this year, but somehow having statistically like his least efficient year since the mid-2010s. Of all the jaw-dropping Giannis stuff, 13.2 free throw attempts a game?

It's a lot of free throws. 13 per game. You're just like, I'm going to the free throw line over three times a quarter when you play me. That just seemed like a lot. His usage rate is comically high, 38.9. Why is that, Zach Lowe? Because Drew Holliday's missed a bunch of games

and Chris Middleton's missed the entire season. And if he's not using up the possessions, it's like, all right, I guess Grayson Allen want to do some stuff for us. Marjan Beauchamp, you want to do some stuff for us? What else are you going to do? Joe Ingles, though. Joe Ingles has been helpful for them.

So Joe Ingles, there were some signs for us. What else are you going to do? Joe Ingles, though. Joe Ingles has been helpful for them. So Joe Ingles, there were some signs last night. First of all, quick crunch time. Second, when did he tear his knee? This feels like a fast comeback. It was less than a year ago, right? In the age of everyone takes six months longer than people used to take

to recover from every injury, which is, I'm not saying it's a good or a bad thing. That just is what it is. Like Jamal Murray took a long time. Kawhi takes forever. That's just the way it is. We've learned science advances, knowledge advance. This is, it is like a year ago. And he, maybe this is the benefit of not being that athletic to begin with. He looks like Joe Ingles. It just looks like, Oh, Joe Ingles is back. He didn't have any speed to lose. I was surprised. I thought the game last night was really good.

Really, really, really entertaining. And at least the Knicks, we can debate the Mitchell stuff later, but at least the Knicks have reached a point now where the MSG games are fun. The crowd likes the team. They're competitive. They have a guy in crunch time

who really has a lot of confidence. And what was one of the shocking things about the game was the Ingles and Giannis were kind of two man gaming. It was like Ingles, you just showed up. You're already running it. Now they don't have Middleton. When Middleton comes in,

I'll be interested to see who the five is, how they use Ingles, stuff like that. But it goes to show to your point, how desperate they were to have anybody who could create anything next to Giannis. Well, Middleton, I mean, Ingles has thrown like you don't realize like the Bucks are

not a good passing team. And sometimes like just throwing an entry pass to Giannis is a freaking adventure for them. And then Ingles comes on and you don't realize how much you're starving for a guy who can just like lob a pass to you in the middle of the lane when you slip a screen or just thread an entry pass over a front or something like that until he comes in and does it routinely and you're like oh my god the bucks have the bucks have someone who can do this it's like a miracle yeah they he he might be a bigger part of their team than i thought i thought they

overpaid for him i might end up being wrong on that. As somebody who was once a great entry passer, I can really identify the other great entry passers. And you're right. The Bucs had no entry passers. And this is the first one. There's some weird advanced stats with Giannis about all of his unassisted baskets and

just how bad the assist rate is in the Bucs and stuff like that. Ingles will help with all that stuff. The Giannis thing. So the Bucs and stuff like that. So Ingles will help with all that stuff. The Giannis thing. So the Bucs are 26 and 14. Giannis has played 34, 40 games. He's been really, really, really like LeBron level durable over the course of his career, where it's just like, even when he gets hurt, it seems surprising.

And you just assume he's going to get up. Even if his leg is like next to the scores table He's like, go get your leg, Giannis. He's had four straight first-team OMBAs, and this year he's going to be the fifth. I'm starting to think of him big picture in that kind of pantheon all-time, what-are-we-watching context

where I had a friend of mine last week when everybody was going nuts about Luka and Jokic, including me on this podcast, say like, watch Giannis' next couple of games. Like Giannis sees all this stuff. And then of course, Giannis has the big games in a row. This is now a half decade of him just wreaking havoc. And it doesn't feel like he's 27.

It doesn't, I'm trying to figure out the trade value. He's clearly the number one. It doesn't feel like there's any sign of a finish line with this. How long does this go for you? Well, he gets better every year. He's a better passer now than he was even last year. And like defensively,

like the bucks have been bad on offense. It's like one of the sneaky big stories. They're 25th in offense, 25th. Like that means you're basically just better than the teams that are trying to lose if you're 25th. offense. 25th. That means you're basically just better than the teams that are trying to lose if you're 25th. But on defense, their entire stretch of the game

when he and Lopez are in the game, it's like, what are you even supposed to do in the paint? It's a complete no-fly zone with those guys around. His timing gets better and better. And why would there be a finish line? I just think, you know, I remember we did before the season, I think we did something on like which of the top the current guys who made the top 75 had the most at stake

this season and you picked durant which i think is which i think is i thought you're going to pick hard and you're like no i gave up on hard and he's not the number one guy on this team you picked durant which i thought was a good pick and i like kind of devil's advocate lee made the case for yannis just because two-time mvp every chance at a ring is precious bucks are kind of sneaky getting a little old around him middleton is a potential free agent this summer has not really played this season like that's a story that i guess everyone's just assuming he got hurt last season this is year two of him not standing on the court. And you kind of were the first one to sound the alarm bells last week on your pod that, you know, is there some frustration brewing within the Bucs or is there some stuff going

on? And I think it's more just frustration with people's health and availability and losing and like normal NBA, like doldrums, frustration stuff. But like, I think you hit on something and it's not something we've really ever heard with the bucks before. This is like, you know,

happy go lucky, the bucks Milwaukee. It's fun. Um, there's 17 and 14 since starting nine and oh, and just, they need to, they need to get Middleton back and see what they have on offense because they just haven't looked kind of the same.

And that's your point about Giannis' efficiency. He's amazing, but this is not a peak Giannis offensive year, really. All the Bucs fans got mad at me. It was like a nine-second throwaway where I was like, hearing it's not the good shit lollipop over there. Butch, by the way, you've heard and we've all heard. And like a day after I said it, they blew a 12 point lead to who is it? Atlanta with a minute and a minute and 10 seconds left.

It's like this is not the kind of thing that happens to a team that is like running on all cylinders. That's why it's funny. You know, it's a dumb game halfway through the season. I thought that win against the Knicks last night was important for them because they were down 17 in that game. They had everybody but Middleton. Basically, they had just lost to Charlotte by 29 points somehow on the road.

And it just like, and if they just, if the Knicks just win that game going away, it begins to all of a sudden, it's like, well, the bucks, like what's going on with the bucks?

Should we be worried about the Bucs? And they came back like that was a real comeback win where the team decided like, yeah, we're going to we're going to come out and play. We're going to play hard. We're going to play together. We're going to try to win this game. Just watching it, I was like, this kind of feels like a good win for them. You wouldn't think you wouldn't think. Yeah, you wouldn't think midseason at the Knicks is a big deal for the Bucs.

But I was like, that's a good win. Yeah, but during the season so long, there's seven, eight inflection points where you kind of have a moment where you find out what kind of team you have. I thought the big thing for them is just Holiday was awesome in that game, especially down the stretch. And I loved watching him go at Brunson. I was kind of shocked Brunson was scoring on Holiday like that.

I don't really have a lot of memories of people going at Holiday kind of one-on-one a lot and getting the shots they wanted off him. How many times has that even happened? Chris Paul did a little, but it's not a usual thing. Bucs, I was impressed. I felt the same way. You know how this goes because you're in the narrative game with the worldwide leader. You have two bad losses. It's a Tuesday. What's our first story going to be? And if there's some smoke, you kind of drift toward the smoke. And we were doing it with the Hawks with reason because there's something really wrong with that team, with the talent they have. And we've seen it all year. then the stuff comes out none of it was surprising but with the bucks it was just you know small subtle signs they're always on the clock with the honest i know he's signed with them but you know they there's always going to be an inherent pressure to put a really good team around him and he was doing a lot a lot more than he usually does this year for 33 34 minutes a game like just the the offensive

workload he had was kind of stunning. Now, as you said, he's also evolving into the kind of player who can handle that workload. But 38.9 usage is really high. That's like Westbrook 2017 level high. Well, and you were the first one to even mention the ownership situation there. And you did it like months before anybody else.

And then like it went radio silent everyone was like whoa that was weird that bill said that and then all of a sudden it comes out that like you know there was some actual fire there and like that's a whole thing too i i picked them to win the title this season and i've just been continuously and like let me see their team mode because middleton is so important to their team but i they need him to get healthy and get stable and yannis needs him to get healthy and get stable, and Giannis needs him to get healthy and stabilize their offense now. When do you think I'm going to get to the point career-wise

when I throw stuff out that people are going to be like, oh, he must actually know something if he just threw that out? What is that, like 2025? What am I looking at? You should be there, but this is where the Celtics thing comes back to bite you because the conspiracy

theorists will come out and say, oh, he's just trying to undermine the Celtics. Celtics fan, trying to hurt the Bucs. Consecutive first team All-NBAs. This will be five for Giannis. Do you know who has the most consecutive first team All-NBAs? There are two people

and the number is 11. I'm going to guess it's a tie. It's Kareem and LeBron. Very good guesses. It is Carl Malone, the James Harden of his generation. What? With 11 straight first team on MBAs.

Holy cow. Yeah. This is why the work that we do on podcasts and the book i wrote and some of the pieces both of us have written like just to put the carl malone stuff down before 100 years from now the nerds come in or like was carl malone the best player of all time it's like it's shit like that for 11 first tomorrow it also it also shows you the power of never getting hurt like to his credit right never ever hurt there was never a his credit, he was never, ever hurt. There was never a season where like,

oh, he only had 30 games played this season. He was always healthy. So after that, Bob Pettit and Bob Cousy playing against Plumbers, both had 10 straight first-team All-NBAs. Wait, who was tied with Karl Malone? Who was the other 11 one? LeBron.

LeBron, okay. Yeah. Nine in a row. Bird, Magic Okay. Yeah. Nine in a row. Bird, Magic, and Oscar. Nine in a row. Nine first team on base in a row. Just banging them out. Our guy, Tim Duncan, you and I riding.

Co-shotgun on. Can we stop saying Tim Duncan wasn't one of the best seven or eight players of all time? I'm in the mode where now we're all fight people. What else? What else do people want? You want, they don't want to, they don't care.

He's not good at TikTok. You want passing? Yeah. There's no fun TikTok clip with Tim Duncan or a little tweet. The two minute Twitter clip of Tim Duncan was a problem. He doesn't exist. It was like, it was like the five titles were a problem.

What about the time when he beat Shaq and Kobe in a playoff series when he was the only all-star on his team? Tim Duncan, eight. Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Elgin, seven. And Jerry West, six. Those are our only six and up guys for consecutive firsts to mom and bids. The reason I mentioned that is to be one of the two best guys at your position

or at center, the best guy for more than half a decade is pretty great. And that's the kind of stuff that Giannis is looking at now. He got the title. He had the 50-point game in the game six. He's 27. The work ethic's there. But now what are the next three, four years look like? You think about when Kobe basically reinvented himself from 08 through 2012 and just put his career at a totally different level.

He has a chance to do that. Yeah, it's early in all these guys' careers. And the Embiid health stuff kind of puts him in a separate category, the early seasons that he missed and all that. But you look at just the numbers that Luka and Jokic and even Tatum are putting up at their age. And it's like, if they stay healthy, if Jokic and Luka stay healthy, they're going to be top 15 players of all time. And Tatum could end up. But then you're like, we're running out of top 30.

Yeah, we're running out of top 20 players Yeah, we're running out of like top 20 players of all that. We have too many guys. I don't know if it's like the numbers are, you're better at this than I am. The numbers today are like, you kind of have to remember we're 10% inflated compared to where we even were like 10 years ago in terms of points per game. Everyone's averaging 20 and 30 points a game. But what these guys are doing is, is you got to appreciate it in real time. Like this is just all time.

Great stuff. What all these guys are doing. I was going to bring this up later, but we can do it now. I actually think the numbers are, you said 10%. It feels worse than that. It feels like I was being polite.

And I think LeBron is a good indication. LeBron in year 20, I don't think athletically he's the same guy. If you did split screen of him in 2010 or him in 2013, a season that we both revere, that third Miami season where he was like, we were like, is LeBron going to shoot 60%?

Is this a thing that might happen? Versus LeBron now, athletically, he's just not the same guy, but he knows how to take advantage of the pace of the game and the fact that you can't really guard it anymore. He gets to the basket anytime he wants and he's still getting his 29. But I do feel like if you put 2010 like one of those two Cavs MVP season LeBrons into the league now, it's like 37 38 a game I think I just don't think you would have been able to guard him a fun thing to do once or twice a year is watch the fourth quarter and overtime of the Ray Allen game in the 2013 finals because

they're down Miami is down like 10 or 12 yeah lebron played the best nine minutes of his career in that game and i don't know why that i guess all the drama at the end kind of overshadows that the spurs collapsing the kawaii free throw the ray allen shot like yeah i have it in a pete lebron scored or assisted on 29 of their last 38 points and on d and on defense to your point about his athleticism it's like oh my god no he's like Pippen, Pippen level. Yeah, he was the highest possible level. So yeah, I look at that and I said this on the pod last week that it does feel a little like when the football, the passing got a little easier and the numbers just changed.

And we might have to look at this. I don't know what the cutoff is, but you might have to look at somewhere in the mid-2010s. Once the threes really came in and the spacing changed and the guys who were on the court changed, which I think is another big thing in this, just go back and watch some of those 2012 games, the plotting centers we had to watch and the teams that tried to play with size. I do wonder, the David Lee-Draymond moment, maybe that's the moment when David Lee gets hurt and Draymond goes,

and maybe that's the moment the league just shifts. I think of Roy Hibbert and Pero Antic from the Hawks-Pacers first round series that year when it was like, oh my God,

are the Pacers in trouble? Because Pero Antic can shoot threes and maybe that was the moment. You're right. I also think of what a big deal it seemed at the time when the Heat finally started Bosh at center in

one of their playoff runs. It's like, oh my god, Bosh at center? Okay. Now it's like, of course Chris Bosh started at center. What were they messing around with? Remember when Paul Millsap was a three for a minute? When he entered the league, it's like, is he a three or a four? It's like, Paul Millsap was a three for a minute. Like when the interleague is like, is he a three or a four? It's like Paul Millsap?

The Boston, the 08 Boston Celtics. I always say this. Inadvertently invented small ball and didn't even realize it. Because remember, they love to go big. They love to have Perkins with KG and Big Baby or Leon Poe. And they, you know, that was the mentality. But then the game four of the Lakers series, that was when they went small. And that was the mentality. But then the game four of the Lakers series, that was when they went small.

And it was the lineup. All the Celtics fans were like, every time we play this lineup, they kick ass. And it was like Eddie House, Posey, Ray Allen, Pierce, and Garnett. And the spacing was there. And all of a sudden, the scoring was unlocked. But at the time, we were like, whoa, what a gamble.

Going small. I'll tell you when the inflatable statistics really like when it landed hard on me like like this is something i have to internalize and remember all the time talking about these numbers is two seasons ago when colin sexton averaged like 24.5 points a game and i was like man that is a colin sexton yeah that is a hell of a season for colin saying i'm like maybe i like colin sexton averaged 25 points a game something must be going and no offense to colin sexton he's a good player i like him but like that was a moment where i was like that's something's that that's when it landed on me is like this is just a thing i have to keep in

mind every time i talk about a player's numbers like oh so and so OGN and OB is averaging 19.8 points a game like that's a big scoring numbers it's like yeah that's like 15 now yeah the usage rate stuff I just feel like in the old that like remember the classic example perk shout out to perk we love perk um but OKC would run the token like two per plays. Nobody does that anymore. Nobody runs the token two plays for their big guy just to make sure they get their hands wet before they just have to set picks for the rest of the game. That's like part of Jordan Ura Bull's scripture is the cartwright post-ups. Like you got to give Big Bill some touches early in the game because he's got to defend. Like every single game is like got to give cartwright the post- post-ups. You got to give Big Bill some touches early in the game

because he's got to defend. Every single game, it's like, got to give Cartwright the post-touches. And Bill was like, he was a great post-player, so it was fine. But yeah, you're right. You don't see... Well, think about...

That was the whole point of the triangle was that... And the whole reason Phil Jackson was so committed to it was he wanted everybody in the player to touch the ball and be involved, and he wanted movement, and he didn't want the ball to touch the ball and be involved and he wanted movement and he didn't want the ball to be stuck with one or two people.

And now in 2023, the goal for half of these teams is to have the ball be stuck for two or three people. And that's it. So I don't know. I don't know if it's better or worse, but the stats are definitely screwed up. Let's take a break. Yeah, all stars.

And then we'll keep going. Keep the NBA season going with FanDuel, America's number one sportsbook. New customers, you get $150 of free bets guaranteed when you place your first $5 bet. Download the FanDuel sportsbook app. Safe, secure, super easy to use. And you can bet on everything from the money line to point scores to threes drained on every Wednesday. I look at the NBA schedule. I pick a same game parlay. I tweet it out. FanDuel does a cool graphic and we're off.

I'm going to do that on Wednesday. Stay tuned for that. FanDuel even lets you combine your bets for a chance at a bigger payout with the aforementioned same game parlay. Oh yeah. And guess what? FanDuel is live in Ohio.

So you can get in all the action with great offers just for you now and throughout January. Don't miss your chance to get $150 in free bets with promo code BS. Make every moment more with FanDuel, official sportsbook partner of the NBA. You must be 21 plus in select states. First online real money wager only. $10 first deposit required. Bonus issued as non-withdrawable free bets that expire 14 days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too.

You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. All right. So, so far we've only picked one all-star starter. It's Giannis. Quite a pace. Kevin Durant was having one of the four best, I say, stretches of his career. I'm very hesitant to say best season because I still remember the 19 playoffs when he was

just destroying everybody with this free agency coming before he got hurt. 2014 is just... Slim Reaper. 2014 is a great basketball reference. What the fuck season? You look at it, you're like, wait, 32 points a game. He played over 3,000 minutes. Just stuff we don't see anymore.

I thought 2017 with the Warriors, that first season when they were really, really like, oh my God, this is great. That was a really fun version of him. And then this last version of him where, you know, almost a 50-40-90 guy at 30 points a game. Just all the usual stuff.

It's crazy. He doesn't even have the highest usage rate on his team. Kyrie does. But just the efficiency. He's playing really hard on both ends. Which raises the question, why didn't you play this hard when Steve Nash was the coach?

Which is a whole other story. But yeah, this is the best I've seen him play in a while. Where do you have him? I mean, he's a no-brainer all-star starter. And I think you keep him there. He's played 39 games. I think he's missed two games.

And you look at it up and down, everyone's missed 10 games, seven games, eight games. Even if he misses the next 15, he's still an all-star starter because he was that good. And yeah, I mean, I have nothing to add. The guy's just completely outrageous at every possible part of the game. He's the most well-rounded scorer maybe ever. And defensively, this is as good as he's ever been.

I actually think the Nets will miss him just as much, if not more, on defense than on offense, which is crazy, but he's been that good of a two-way player for them. He was right. I mean, who not? It's impossible to pick an MVP right now, but he had as much of a claim as

pretty much anybody, which is crazy. It's crazy he's only won one MVP. We're going to get to the end and be like, that guy was MVP once. And so was Kobe. It was nine years ago. It's hard to win MVP. Sometimes it's circumstance, whatever. And he also

went to Golden State and became part of a much bigger ensemble during the peak of his career when he probably wouldn't have won a second one. It's funny. I remember when I did all those pods with him, there was one time we were talking about the all NBA and the all league. And I was like, I've, I think it was either him or Curry. And I was like, yeah, you missed too many games. I put you on the second team where I put Curry on the second team. It was one of them. And he was so confused by the logic of like, but wait a second, I'm one of the best players in the league, or Curry's one of the best.

Why wouldn't it be first team? What does it matter if I miss some games? It just wasn't registering with them. But when you have this many great guys, the games played does end up becoming one of the deciding things. That's one of the reasons you and I, one of the many reasons we love Jokic.

Guy's out there. He's durable. If you turn on a Nuggets game, he's durable. You don't fee. If you turn on a nuggets game and he's in street clothes, you assume something horrible happened. I was interesting. It has been interesting. We're way off track now, but I was interesting to you. And who was it? It was the was in, um, on van. Yeah. And van. And it's been interesting. We were talking about this on the show today. Like, Zach, you got to talk about, is it likely Jokic, you know,

do you need to start warning people that Jokic could win a third straight MVP? And I'm like, I think the public discourse has kind of come around to just, he's awesome. Like, the whole, like, Jokic skepticism is kind of weirdly faded away. Like, to the degree that there ever was any, it's just like, everyone's kind of like,

yeah, if he wins, that's fine. If he wins three in a row, like I thought there would be this outcry of like, we can't give it to him. He hasn't won a championship. And it's kind of like, yeah, if he wins it, he wins it.

He's averaging a triple-double, basically shooting 60%. He has the respect of pretty much everyone now. And his team's much better this year, which has brought out all these new pieces. I mean, yesterday they played the Lakers and he's like, I'm just gonna take five shots.

I'm gonna see if I can get to 20 assists. I'm going to see if you can make a YouTube montage of all my assists in this game. Do you see that one where he went down the right? He went driving down the right. He did this spin move, went on the right. It looked like he was going to lay up and then wrapped around to a cutter down the middle. It was like, all right, I've never seen that before except for Larry Bird. I've never seen that specific pass.

The thing with him is he just has to be such a delight to play with. If you're on that, to me, the final level of hoops is if the other guys are like, I just can't believe I'm on this guy's team. It's, it's like, if you're in pickup, you know, you're waiting all day and then you end up on the most fun team to be on. And you're just like, oh my God, I hope we keep

the court. I love playing with this guy. I don't want to lose. I just want to keep winning. And that's what all those guys in that team, they're all better because they met Nicole Jokic. Well, and you're, you're, you know know this is the double-edged sword of the the usage rate stuff you mentioned before is you know guys want to touch the ball like there is something to the guys will play harder and on defense and be happier and do all the little things more if they're not just sort of chilling on offense while trey young runs 90 pick and rolls every game or luca runs 90 pick and rolls every game and you can win that way like harden almost won the championship with with that kind of style you just have to be like one of the five best players in the league and

you need to have another guy who's one of the 12 to 13 best it's it's hard but you can win that way but there is something to the like people want to touch the ball like even i don't need to shoot but like pass it to me let me do a handoff let me drive and kick like i want to touch the ball. I don't need to shoot, but pass it to me. Let me do a handoff. Let me drive and kick. I want to do something. It's basketball atrophy. This was the hardest thing with the Celtics with Neesmith.

As you know, I owned a beachfront house on Neesmith Island, and he just stood in the corner for two years. And it's like, is this guy good or not? I'm like, you know what? This guy gives a shit. He's super athletic. I'm keeping the house. And now he goes to Indiana.

He gets to play with Hal Burton, who's one of the most fun guys in the league to play with, on a coach where everybody gets to touch the ball and move. And now it's like, guess what? He's an asset. I do think basketball atrophy, sometimes it's hard to even say, I don't know. I don't know if this guy's good.

It would be really fun as a GM to try to figure out is this guy kind of an underutilized asset or not? Romeo Lankford I gave up on, even though he's had some good Spurs games. I mean, I can tell you the Kings, when they traded for Herter,

that's one of the things they were betting on. This guy can do stuff we haven't seen him do. And it's hard to fault the Hawks. They made the conference finals and all that. And he was a huge part of that. But they bet on this guy's got more to his game. And we can bring it out with Sabonis doing all the funky handoff stuff that he does and all that. So if Ben Simmons doesn't self does himself combust in that round two.

Oh my God. There's like nine sliding door moments from that, right? Atlanta. We don't, we don't have to do the asterisk with every Trey young conversation. Well, they did make the conference finals and then you just kind of have to say

that he's, he's been not fun to play with for four of the five years that he's been in the league, or maybe even four and a half. But then... Relevant to our Eastern Conference All-Star discussion that we're supposed to be having right now. Yeah. Anyway, yeah, yeah.

Let me keep going. Last thing on Durant. Before he got hurt, would you have had him second team all defense? I haven't actually sat down and listed the players. But would he have been in that conversation at least? Yeah, he would have, right? For sure. 100% for sure.

And I think that's why I wanted to mention that. The true shooting of stat, I don't totally understand except for when it's over 60, that's kind of where you want to be. But when it gets higher than 60, I don't really know how to put it in perspective. But the true shooting was 67% this year,

which is usually where like dunking centers are. Yeah. It's like DeAndre Jordan. DeAndre Jordan leads the league in field goal percentage. Yeah. So I thought that was notable, but you know, this is who he is since,

since his first like good season in 09, he's been 28, seven and four every game. This year he's 37 and four. He's always been close to a 50, 40, 90 guy. I was going to say, I think he's only actually done 50, 40, 90 once, maybe twice. He's always lingering. It's right there every year. It's like 50, 41, 89, 52, 39, 92. It's crazy. He's close every single year. And then the other thing, he's sixth in points per game, which maybe that's how when these stats are so weird

now, that's one of the things we'll have to look at is like, were you a top seven scorer? How many years in a row? And then maybe that'll be the cutoff. All right, Tatum. So Tatum's basically having the, not from a shooting standpoint, because he's

47, 35, 86, so he's not really a 50, 40, 90 guy, but the numbers are basically KD numbers, right? 31, eight and four is like a typical awesome KD season. A little bit of a bump because of where we are, but the free throw attempts are now up to 8.6. Delighted to no end. I've been arguing about that for three years. Just go to the line twice a quarter. Can you at least do that? He's doing that. Over nine threes a game.

He's durable as fucking shit. 39 out of 41 games. 36.7 minutes a game. That's a lot. Which in this era is a lot. In the old, you go back to the old KD. Go look at KD on Basketball Reference where I think he has four or five years where he's over 3,000 minutes in a season. It's never happened.

If someone averaged 40 minutes a game today, that's all we would talk about on TV for every single day of the NBA season. It's like, oh my God, he's averaging 40 minutes a game. Nick Nurse is so close. He could just, three more minutes a game, they'd start talking Raptors. Usage is okay, 33.

Pretty solid, right? To score 31 points a game. 33. Not bad. Speaks to the ball movement and the guards on the Celtics more than anything. And the pace.

Here's what was interesting with me. First Celtic ever to score 1,200 points halfway through the season. I feel like we've moved to a world I feel like we've moved to a world. I feel like the total points title should matter more

than points per game because now you're bringing durability into it. Who has that right now? It's probably Tatum or Luka would be my guess because Tatum has only missed two. I think Luka has only missed a couple. But just in general,

if you score 2,400 points in a season, you either average 30 plus a game or you played 80 games or both. And that list isn't long either. But I don't know. I like the combo, the durability. It's Luka right now. Yeah.

KD's best season ever was 32-7-6 in 2014. That's Slim Reaper season. Russ was hurt part of that season, right? 50-39-87. So we always wondered, could Tatum he's never going to be as great as KD, but could he be in the vicinity? You would say he's in, I would say, the vicinity

of a peak KD season, right? Yeah. Look, let's simplify right now. If you cheat like I did, if you just had to pick the five all-star starters with, like, reasonable positional rules in the East, this is who they should be.

Tatum, Giannis, Durant, Embiid, and Donovan Mitchell. Do we at least agree on that? Like, if you finagle the rules so you can pick the five best guys, those are the starters in the Eastern Conference? Yeah, my rule with this is

if that was a fivesome, could they make sense playing basketball together? And I think Embiid, Giannis, Tatum, Durant, Mitchell, even though they'd be long, would still work. I could coach that team. That would work. That would be fun. I mean, we coached a celebrity team once.

We lost. Well, Kevin Hart killed us. I've rooted against all his movies ever since. I just remember sitting awkwardly on the bench talking to a supermodel whose name I don't remember anymore, but she was delightful. She was great. She didn't care about PT. She was great.

Yeah, so with Tatum, I guess my question for you is is there another level to go up beyond this or is this is this the ceiling for him offensively factoring in that the game continues to change and maybe points will continue to go up a slight bit but

I mean is he what's reasonable is 34 points a game reasonable for him? I feel like we're kind of at... You think it is reasonable? I don't think this is the ceiling just because, look, the numbers will be what the numbers are,

but I think qualitatively he will have better three-point shooting seasons than this and better three-point shooting stretches than this. And I think we'll see the same Giannis thing where maybe his assists never leap that much and leap off the page but you'll see passes every year every week you're like oh that's not sure he would have made that pass like

last season his passing will just get incrementally better every season he gets experience being the guy and having the whole defense throwing at him every game so I don't I don't think this is I mean his ceiling just can't get much higher than this because he's already so good. But I don't think we've seen the best Jason Tatum yet. Yeah, he'll have like a 42% three-point shooting year or something like that. Now, I'm glad you mentioned the passing because I was at, my daughter's high school has this whole event where they compete against this other rival school and all the winter sports all at once. So she played her girl's soccer and then the boy's soccer and then the boy's basketball played. And we have really good LA basketball,

right? So this was Crossroads against Brentwood. Not two of the top 10 LA teams, but really good, good basketball. And I was sitting there watching, Brentwood was doing this frisky press thing. And I was sitting there watching it with my mindset and what I watch every night with NBA. And I'm just like, why is that guy penetrating and then doing the one-handed loop pass to the guy in the corner? And you're thinking like,

oh, because the NBA players I'm watching are aliens. Like even that Tatum pass that he can do now, which he couldn't do two years from now, no normal person can make that pass. And we're just like, yeah, he's added this pass. It's like, yeah, he's added the single hardest pass you can make when you're a scorer and your mentality is to score

to just suddenly whip it cross court into the corner. I don't know. I just feel like the league is just getting better and better and better. CJ McCollum. I was watching Pelicans Wizards last night. CJ McCollum had this play on the sideline where he like gathered a tricky pass that almost let him out of bounds. And just like in a snap, like in a play where you and I would have just fallen jumper off the glass. And I had to rewind. I was like, what just happened? How did CJ McCollum do that?

And it's like, oh, because these guys are doing things with their bodies that you and I just were not, not only can we not do them, like we don't even understand what the hell is going on. They're so ridiculous. And the equipment's great. All the, all the stuff they, oh, my calf hurts a little bit. You can have somebody beat the hell out of your calf until that goes away. It's amazing stuff. All right. So we're there on Tatum. By the way, only 30 guys ever have scored 1200 points at the halfway point of the season.

Wow. That was, I saw it at Boston Sports Info, kind of an underrated Boston sports account, but that guy had that. Shout out to that guy. Okay, so you have Embiid. This is where I'm going to differ. I'm going more traditional. I have Donovan Mitchell. I'm glad you're sitting down. I have Tyrese Halliburton as my other

all-star. It's fine. And you know why? Because I want to see him in the all-star game. He's fun to play with. Remember that stretch when we had no good point guards in the all-star game and it's fun to play with. Remember that stretch when we had no good point guards in the all-star game and it was like Jason Kidd should just have to play for both sides and then Chris Paul got good and then we had enough point guards again?

Halliburton in the all-star game is going to be awesome. He probably won't shoot. He'll have like two points and 12 assists. Look, if I can't put Tatum at guard and I have to bump one of the front court guys, Tyrese Halliburton might be the right answer. So I've got those five locks in that I have as my fake starting lineup. And then I have five other guys that I'm like, I'm pretty sure these should be the next five guys in the All-Star game.

And he's one of them. The advanced stats, whatever numbers you want to use, and they're good. The Pacers are good and they're not going anywhere. He absolutely deserves it. The shooting numbers and the passing numbers are outrageous. Like, I don't, I don't think that's an, are you sitting down? Okay, good. If you've been paying attention to the NBA.

The Pacers are 23 and 18. They over and over again, win games in the fourth quarter with like really smart offense and because hal burton is fantastic he's a franchise player he's 2010 and four this year 48 41 89 percentages he's almost a 50 40 90 guy um 56 on twos stands out to me too like his finishing the question with him is like is he athletic enough to finish in the lane to beat switches to do all that stuff and he's like he's answering all those immediately like immediately is the as the number one guy he's answered all those questions i remember i was talking during that draft because i loved hal burton and i was talking to somebody

who had a pick in the top let's say top 11 11. And I was like, I don't understand this Hal Burton thing. He's going to be good. I don't know, you guys overthink this stuff. And the guy said to me, his shot takes too long to, when he shoots it, it's like the release is, he's just not gonna be able to shoot that way in the NBA. He won't be able to create his own shot. And I was like, I don't know. I just, this is who he is now, but we already see like, he's going to be way better. I just, they overthink this shit all the time. This was a guy

who played so well with everybody else and all the stats were like, he didn't need the ball to be awesome, which is like, that's the number one thing I'm looking for now with the way basketball is played. Like, do you, do you not need the ball that much? And can you still affect the team? And this was like the number one example of that. He's a 2010 guy, which is a bigger deal than I think people realize. I went and looked this up. We've only, do you count James Harden and Russell Westbrook as point guards or no?

Yeah. When they did their point guards or no? Yeah. When they did their 2010s. Okay. Yeah. So we've only had 32 seasons ever of 2010 and they were done by the following people. Oscar Robertson, a bunch of times magic,

Chris Paul, Isaiah, Kevin Johnson, Tim Hardaway, once James Harden, Russell Westbrook, tiny Archibald once, Darren Williams once, John Wall once,

and Tyrese Halliburton this year. And I think he's 23. Should be an all-star. I mean, we can talk about the... We can talk about the other guard candidates. So who was the guard that you... that he was the toughest call over? Like your first guard off the bench

for the Eastern Conference? Jalen. Yeah, if we're counting him as a first guard off the bench for the Eastern Conference. Jalen. Yeah, if we're counting him as a guard, I think that's the right answer. Well, let's do, we'll do those three and then we'll do Embiid. Mitchell's the one who has to be in there.

29 a game. He's almost a 50-40-90 guy. The shooting, the efficiency of him, every single instinct we ever had with that trade of like, this will be great for him. This is the perfect team for him to go to.

It's been realized. The only thing I worry about one iota is just the Garland piece of this. Because Garland was an all-star last year. And just... I thought it was going to be... I thought they were going to be kind of co-driving on the road trip where it was like, all right, get to Kansas City we'll switch and it's like this is

Mitchell's car and I just wonder how is Garland going to feel about that long term so far probably fine well but we'll see I mean but but he was on my short list of guard candidates still. I mean, 21 and on good shooting. Um, they've been, I think plus six per a hundred possessions when he plays without Mitchell. Uh, he has missed nine games that everybody has. He's still,

he's still, he got poked in the eye though. That was different. Yeah. That was right at the beginning of the first game of the season. I think he still had a one hell of a season and is, I think, I think clearly Cleveland's second best all-star candidate

over Mobley and Allen. I've kept all my Mobley stock. I was hoping for 10% more this year. Like, so it's, it's just crazy to me that every year, every year, two things happen and they're totally contradictory. Every year there's a Lowry marketing or a Victor Oladipo where it's like, oh, my God, we gave up too early on this guy. Young guys, some guys take time. And at the same time, that's happening.

Everyone's like, I'll out Lowry marketing and got to find the right place, right time, right maturity level, whatever it is. At the same time, that's happening. The same people are like, what a disappointment. Scotty Barnes and Evan Mobley are in their second season. Just these guys are just regressing. It's just a disaster. Oh, my God. It's like, how can you believe both of those things at the same time?

Scottie Barnes and Evan Mobley are going to be totally fine. Mobley's fine. He just didn't go up offensively. He still can't shoot. He's still shooting like 56%. His twos are crazy. What are his threes? The threes are a disaster. I thought the

3s would be a little better. It's early, man. It'll come. I just said, man, I was throwing the Tim Duncan name around with him. I just wanted it to go up a notch. Tim Duncan won the finals in his second year. Barnes, I'm way more alarmed about. And I think it's a

combination of how they're using him and he's lost confidence in his shot. You can see it. And teams are now playing him like, this guy doesn't really want to shoot. Like he's getting that. Oh, they're playing him like Simmons and Draymond. Yeah, he's getting the Simmons treatment.

So I think that's more alarming because in July, I think we both agreed, I don't know if I want to put Scottie Barnes in a KD trade. This was July. Now you'd be like, wait, I can get KD for Scottie Barnes in a KD trade. This was July. Now you'd be like, wait, I can get KD for Scottie Barnes. I think that has changed.

Mowgli, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, as I said, I'm keeping all my stock. you couldn't,

Mowgli is unbelievable. 14 and nine, but the defense, I mean, he's defensively advertised like already. All the, the fun advanced numbers that we always wanted to be able to just look up

on a dime and now they all exist. All the rim protection stuff with him. All the five man. He's fine. I just... Can you start making some threes? Give him a little time.

Just start making some threes. Get in the gym. Get in the gym, says Simmons. Get in the gym. No, I'm, says Simmons. Get in the gym. Oh, my God. No, I'm kidding. I love my... Mobley, you're my guy.

Wait, before we keep talking about Mitchell, let's take a break. When you ride transit, please be safe. Yeah, be safe. Because what you do, others will do too. Others will do it too. So don't take shortcuts across tracks. Don't do that. In fact, just don't walk on tracks at all.

Not at all. Trains move quietly so you won't hear them coming. You won't hear them coming. See, safe riding sets an example. Yeah, an example for me. Because safety is learned. It's learned. Okay, give it up.

Give what up? Really? Really, really. Ugh. This message is brought to you by Metrolinks. Okay, Mitchell, here's another one. This is how the stats are just getting weird. Mitchell's a shooting guard.

31.8 usage, not high. 63% true shooting, really high for a guard. 49, 41, 87% shooting splits. It's just unusual. And I don't really know how to process it yet that we might just, is this year an aberration or is this where we're just heading?

And it might be where we're heading. Maybe these guys every year, they get a little more skilled, just a little better combined with the pace. Everyone's been talking about this for the last week, but if you just showed me that Donovan Mitchell whole thing before the year, if you showed that to me

five years ago and were like, these are going to be Donovan Mitchell stats in 2023, I would have been like, is he the leading MVP candidate? He'd be like, these are basically Kobe stats with better percentages. And I said this after he scored 71 points.

He's not going to crack. He's not even like top five in MVP. Like he wouldn't crack hardly anyone's ballot in the MVP. It's insane what these guys are doing. What's your perfect fifth guy for them in crunch time? You can go grab anyone from any roster realistic who makes like between nine and 18 million dollars let me bring up all right so yeah i have to be i have to be realistic

um so is it like a bug bogdanovich you probably can't get because you don't have the picks anymore no caruso i think is off the market now that the bulls have shown a lot of signs of life the last three weeks yeah 19 and 22 the bulls coming. The Bulls are coming right along. I mean, they've been good for three weeks. Like they gave the Celtics everything they could handle last night. The Bulls are in the mix again. They've played the Celtics stuff every game. If I'm being realistic salary-wise and ambition-wise,

I think a guy like Dorian Finney-Smith would be fine. Just like I don't need – everyone would say OGN and OB and this and that, but just realistically, what's possible both trade-wise and salary-wise going forward, a guy like that would be fine. So Levert for

Dorian... No, I don't think Dallas does that. That's an interesting trade, though. It is interesting. That's a really interesting trade. Did you just make that up right now? Listen, this is why I'm in the Hall of Fame for fake trades. I didn't get there by accident, Zach Lowe. Another ball handler for Luka. It's an interesting one.

The Dallas people love Finney Smith, though. They do. He's good. Finney Smith, every good team needs a Finney Smith. One of those three guys needs to be traded, though. Hardaway, Bullock, or Finney Smith. Every good team needs a Finney Smith. One of those three guys needs to be traded, though. Hardaway, Bullock, or Finney Smith. Because that's really the only way they're going to be able to improve this year. Yeah, so the Mitchell thing. I talked about this last week.

And I know you did, too. But just like, if it's happening on the Knicks, it's fun. But I'm also glad it's happening on Cleveland. Because I care about Mobley. And I care about Garland. I also love Garland. I love both of those guys. And I actually think this was the best scenario for everybody that he went to Cleveland because we have a real contender. I think the Cavs are going to be heard from. And it's been fun for Mitchell. It wasn't fun watching him last year. He didn't seem happy. The Knicks are 22 and 19 and they have fifth-best point differential in the Eastern Conference. It's not like they're suffering. They have two guys on my top 12.

Two All-Stars. You're giving the Knicks two All-Stars? They're in my mix. They're in the mix for sure. My third guard was Jalen Brown. I feel terrible about this because I watch more Celtics than anybody else, obviously, and I think he's been awesome this year. And 27-7-3.

Paul George's best year in 2019 was 28-8-4. Jalen's shooting 50% this year. Paul George shooting 44% that year. What are the threes, though? Because Jalen's at 32-something now, right? Jalen's at 34, paul george is at 39 yeah paul george is a little bit better but this was the case of when it was like we got to trade jaylen brown for kawaii leonard it's like and i remember on this pod laying out the case and

people thought i was being a homer by the way i've been wrong plenty of times i'm just saying this um i was like look why can't this guy be paul george they're the same size they have the same pedigree. He's been in big games already like Paul George in those early Indiana years. Why can't that happen? And it feels like it's happening. Paul George still, there's a cerebral playmaking piece

that I'm not sure Jalen will ever totally have, but it's better. And I think he's a better ball handler than he used to be. And he's also, I think, the most competitive he's better. And I think he's a better ball handler than he used to be. And he's also, I think, the most competitive he's been. I do think that Warriors series and Draymond standing over him and that whole thing was a little bit of a reckoning for him.

There's like an edge to Jalen this year that I don't feel like he had last year. Do you agree with that? He's more physical than peak Paul George, I think. Just stronger and more physical going to the basket. People bounce off of him,

and he clears space so easily just with physicality. Paul George does it with guile and footwork and speed. Yeah, it's actually kind of hard to believe this will be Jalen Brown's second All-Star game. He feels like he's been such a preeminent player for so long. He's going to be his second All-Star game. He's been in a shitload of playoff games at this point. Yeah.

He's almost been in probably like 90 playoff games. And a no-brainer all-star. I mean, we don't even have to debate that. I had the five guys and then the three guys that I felt like were no-brainers. Actually, two. Two and a half. Embiid and Jalen Brown. Let's talk about Embiid. He's 28-39.

They're 24-15. They're 7-4 without him. And he's going to miss a couple more. There's some sore foot thing. I'll just say it's kind of quiet right now in Philly for Embiid on game three of sore foot. As you know, nothing scares me more in the world than centers with feet or shins or any sort of anything from below the knee.

Makes me fucking nervous. And he has a injury history, obviously. With all that said, a ridiculous offensive season so far. He's almost 34 a game, 10 rebounds. Usage almost 38. Which is like really, really like almost record setting high for a center. Um, 11.6 free throw attempts, which, you know, I love. And when he plays, he's played big minutes and he's played awesome.

And he's had some best player in the court games. It made me think like, I think I've said this before, but don't you think they should just keep track of who the best player in the court was for every game just so we can see what that looks like at the end of the year best player in the court I know it's subjective but it would be fun to look at the end of the year and be like whoa

Jokic had 39 best player in the court games Embiid's had definitely he's in the top five for best player in the court games I don't but and he has that sort of, he and Harden have the pick and roll obviously, but he has that like 13 foot jumper out of the pick and roll where he just like right inside the foul line, he takes a regular pick and pop jump shot. And your only defense against that is like, you just have to hope he misses.

You have to hope he has a cold night. Cause some nights he'll make like 70% of those shots. You're like, oh, okay. We lost like, there's nothing you can do. Yeah, the Shaq, when Shaq was at his peak and he was unbelievable and he was so dominant, it was mostly brute force, right? There was, especially we were coming out of like watching Kareem and watching Hakeem, especially Hakeem and Mikael and these people that had just become artists on the low posts

and Shaq was never an artist but he was so athletic and he was so much fun to watch but you would never have called him an artist like he had good footwork the stuff Embiid

has added the last couple years there's some real artistry to it that little one-legged shot he has and some of his

like drop step stuff I do feel like he's worked on it and he's gotten better on it and he probably doesn't get enough credit for it yeah and feel like he's worked on it and he's gotten better on it and he probably doesn't get enough credit for it. Yeah, and he's at his best when he's decisive. Like when he catches and just goes and he knows what he wants to do,

there's nothing I can do with him. The only semi, semi, semi weak spot is that his turnovers are up a little bit this year. He can get a little sloppy passing it, but he's a... That game he had against Utah when he had 50, whatever he had. Oh my God, I watched that one. You just get a little sloppy passing it, but he's a... That game he had against Utah when he had 50, whatever he had. Oh my God, I watched that one.

You just sat back and you're like, this guy is just a man among boys. There's just nothing anybody on the court can do with this guy. He's doing whatever he wants. Pretty crazy. Shaq was like... Teams would sign players whose entire job was to just foul Shaq.

Like just, we need like three backup centers and your whole job is just foul Shaq because there's nothing else we can do. Yeah, he did that thing where he just, if he got to his spot in the block, it was over. If he was within four and a half feet of the basket, like what were you going to do? You had to foul him because all he did was swing around and it was done. I would say, so it's January 10th, 2023. Embiid was in the 2014 draft. I would say

Embiid has reached expectations for whatever the best possible expectations were for, eh, this guy, Kansas, hasn't spent a lot of time playing basketball. We'll see where this goes. I remember at the draft, I compared him to Serge Ibaka because I did that draft.

And I was like, I think this guy is like a Serge, he could be like a better Serge Ibaka basically. Because remember, he was skinnier, and he just seemed like... And now he's morphed into what he's morphed into. But when you think how many nadirs we had with the Joel experience, it's kind of amazing. The guy's averaging 34 points a game. Missed two full seasons at the start of his career.

A lot of organizational drama. It's a big season for the Sixers, by the way, as we know drama. It's a big season for the Sixers, by the way. As we know. But it's a big season for the Sixers. And also, you say organizational drama, also like some whiffs. Just like some fork-in-the-road trades where even in the moment,

it seemed like a little sketchy. And then it couldn't have worked out worse. Even if you just said the Fultz trade and the Mikael Bridges trade, those are just he could just easily have Tatum and Bridges on his team. Stop doing that to Philly people. Chalk.

Alright, now it gets a little harder. So you have for your starters, you're putting the four best with Mitchell. I cheated. I'll have to revisit this when it counts. I went more traditional with Giannis at center, Durant, Tatum, Mitchell, and Halbert. But even then, I cheated slightly with Giannis at center.

And if Giannis is in a center, then I'm going to cheat the other way and make Tatum a guard and put Embiid in there. After this, then the all-star candidates, and you're going to reveal all of them in your column. You're not going to name all your all-stars today. But I'm just in order of guys that I think have to be discussed.

DeRozan. A better year statistically than he had last year. Got hurt last night, hopefully. Got hurt last night. It should be okay, but it's funny because I had written down 41 of 41 games. He's durable yet again.

He is two games away from a thousand, Zach Lowe. Plus 63 playoff games. He's played over 37,000 minutes. He's 33 years old and still looks like the same DeRozan we've been watching for seven years. Yeah. 36 minutes a game, which I appreciate. And this 19 and 22 bowl season,

I was in blow it up mode with them, but watching them the last couple of weeks, it's clear that they should not blow it up. I think they have to take it right to the, right to the edge of the trade deadline and see where they are and see what the record is. They do have some good pieces, but Levine's going again.

Not an all-star. Do we agree? Not an all-star this year. They do have some good pieces, but Levine's going again. Not an all-star. Do we agree? Not an all-star this year. Oh, God, no. No. No. I haven't liked some of the stuff that's all of them.

But just for purposes of this podcast, that's not to say anything. He's having, like you said, the last two weeks, he's looked like Zach Levine again. He has. And he's had some monster, monster games.

The Bulls are, you can already see what their future is, which is the one and two seeds being like, kind of don't want to see the Bulls as an eight seed if that's okay.

Give me one of the shittier teams. You know who I don't want to see when I'm the one seed in round one is the fucking Bulls. No thanks. I like that you're planning your flag on being bullish on the Bulls when everyone spent this entire last calendar being like like it's not going to work they're mediocre they stink KOC's been on blow it up mode for

a while I 1000% agreed with them you know how I felt about those Lakers picks I just want to be the first in line for the Lakers picks they're handing them out I'll take them thank you this is great because you're not going to have a team in five years of anybody.

But I don't know. I think the last three weeks they've kind of figured some stuff out. There was a moment there where I actually thought Donovan was one of the worst coaches in the league. I didn't understand some of the stuff they were doing.

Anyway, I don't want to talk about the Bulls. So go ahead. So DeMar, yeah, he's on my, you remember I said I had to talk about the Bulls. So go ahead. So DeMar, yeah, he's on my, you remember I said I had my five starters and

I had five guys I felt like pretty confident these guys should be there. He's one of them. DeMar is one of them. Is Siakam another

one of them? Yes. Yeah. Another one where 26, eight and seven, that seems like a lot for points,

rebounds and assists. That's like a, that's like a vintage LeBron season. And he's slowed down a little bit in the last three or four weeks. But yeah, they're plus 3.5 per 100 with him on the floor, minus 5 with him off the floor. Something's just wrong with their team, though. Something's just wrong with their team. And Nurse knows it because he keeps,

he's playing everybody big minutes, which is always the sign of like, I don't really trust what's happening here. I'm just going to play my best guys and keep my fingers crossed. I would love to have been in their draft room when they picked Malachi Flynn over Desmond Bain. I wonder how in on Bain they were

because there's such a length in wingspan construction right now. And that was the knock on Bain, right? That he was, he doesn't have a great wingspan. He's too small, blah, blah, blah. But like that's, that one hurts.

There's a lot of Desmond Bain regret around the league to be clear. But like that was, that was right there for him. Yeah, but Siakam's got to be in the all-star game. I don't think Van Vliet's played well. I don't think he thinks he's played well.

I mean, he's been on podcasts galore the last couple weeks, basically saying, I'm shooting like crap, and I need to shoot better. Undersized point guard who's not a great, great playmaker just needs to make more threes. He's never been a good two-point shooter, needs to make threes. And Barnes recovered. Yeah, that team feels off. It's moved to

number one on the who's going to make a trade rankings. To me, they're the clear number one now. So they'll do something. And also, a team that you've been wired in with for over a decade now, a team just completely unafraid to

zag. The Raptors? Yeah, they are an all-time, we don't care. We'll do whatever if we don't like what we see or if we like what we see. Just be prepared. They're the guy in your fantasy draft that keeps you on your toes year after year. Like, what are these guys doing?

This team, I could see them blowing it up. I could see them adding. I don't know what to make of them. I don't know what to make of them either, but they did. The flip side is they held on to those Lowry-DeRozan teams for a long time. Past when people thought like, yeah, okay, they're cute. We know they

won't win against LeBron. You could argue that that was a good move. Remember they made the conference finals that one year. I don't know. I, I, when you're playing Scotty Barnes as like a super undersized center, that that's just a gimmick. That means you don't know what to do with your team.

Another team that I don't think knows what to do with their team. Um, and one of my, my next all-star guy is, uh, Bam. Yeah. We got the same. We got the same kind of like uh yeah next bam's got to be there bam has been i know i'm captain of the bam wagon but 21 and 10 three assists uh 54 percent shooting plus three with him on the floor minus five and a half per 100 when he sits they they he's and defensively he's everywhere all the time he's been sensational for them absolutely

got to be in the all-Star game, I think. Why is that team 21-20, in your opinion? I mean, how many games has Butler missed now? 14. Bam's missed four. Lowry is a regular single-digit scorer. They've had some injuries. Their depth has been suspect compared to how it usually is but yeah they're not i mean you look at butler bam and hero have been like all

pretty much at expectations when they've played and they're still 21 and 20 now they are starting to get healthy and i think they're like nine and five in their last 14, which is not great, but you know, let's give it a month and see, see if they can put it together. Cause they, they more than the bulls, maybe it may,

you know, you, you, you kind of hinted at the bulls is like, I don't want to see those guys. Oh, Miami's definitely. And I don't want to see those guys.

Yeah. So much confidence. Yeah. Miami is, I think outranks the bulls as like, Ooh, I got to play them in the first round. That's kind of a crappy reward for being the number one seed

or number two seed or whatever. You could feel it in that Friday Celtics game, the second one of the back-to-back. When Butler came back, Boston was just sailing. And Miami that whole game was like, all right, let's see how good you are. And they just beat the shit out of the Celtics for four quarters. I thought the Sunday moment,

the crunch time when there's like four seconds left and Jimmy's getting the ball. I wonder, is he going to do the thing where he runs to the corner and shoots the three? Or is he just going to barrel the basket and try to get a call? And he did the Jimmy thing where he just like, he beat somebody. He flung himself

I think into Royce O'Neal and does that thing where it just seems like he's trying to get contact, but then he'll almost make the shot. He beats somebody. He flung himself, I think, into Royce O'Neal. And does that thing where it just seems like he's trying to get contact, but then he'll almost make the shot. And then he puts the ref in the position of, do I call that? What was that? That guy initiated, and it was a good no call. But he's fucking scary.

He's scary at all points of the game. And you're right. I don't want to see him in the finals. You don't think there's no trade possibility with him, right? With them trading him? Yeah, let's say they're 22 and 29 in three weeks. He's tough to trade,

man. That contract's a big contract. It's a lot of money left. That would surprise me. So we've named, however we arrange them, we've named 10 guys who are our first 10 guys. We actually both, without consulting each 10 guys who are our first 10 guys. We actually both, without consulting each other, had the same first 10 guys.

Tatum, Giannis, Durant, Embiid, Mitchell, Siakam, Bam, Tyrese, DeRozan, Brown. So we only got two spots left. That's it. If we think those are the top 10, there's only two left. And then it gets tricky because, I don't know, the advanced stats stats as long as we're on the heat like scream that Jimmy Butler is still Jimmy Butler and he's missed 14 games Harden's missed 15 games

he's going to lead the league in assists once he qualifies over Halliburton like I don't know what to do with any of these guys you won't be shocked to know Harden wasn't on my final list why though because I have other guys I like let's take we'll take one more break and then we'll zip through this. Alright, you asked me why

Harden wasn't on my list. So let's just say I have a guard spot and a front court spot left. And the guards that we haven't gone through yet are Kyrie Irving, Jalen Brunson, Darius Garland, and a guy that you and I value probably more than anybody except for her, Al Bob, Drew Holiday,

who I just, I blind put him in. It's like when I see the French onion soup at dinner and I'm like, this place has French onion soup? Blind in. I'm not even thinking about it. I'm not going to look in the kitchen. I'm not even thinking about it. I'm not going to look in the kitchen. I'm not going to ask questions. I'm in.

Crispy Brussels sprouts appetizer every time. So crispy Brussels sprouts for you, French onion soup for me, and Drew Holiday for both of us. Just blind in. He's always in the mix. So Kyrie is having an awesome statistical season, but really no different than every other Kyrie is having an awesome statistical season but really no different than every other Kyrie

season because he's always 25-5-5 he's always around 50-40-90 he's been on his best behavior for six weeks now Durant's out and Kyrie's in that got this mode now which I think could go in a variety of directions we saw one direction when he ended the game the other night with the 35 foot shot with six seconds left on the clock that they put back

in. But that was like, Oh, that wasn't a great sign. I have no idea where it could go. He could do something dumb or say something dumb at any moment and blow this up. But it's looked pretty good for six weeks. He's been on his best behavior, and I think he's played really hard on both ends. He's rebounding. He's diving into traffic. So he's not one of my favorite players, but I got to hand it to him. He's going to get one of your last two spots?

No. I just got to hand it to him. I thought he hit rock bottom as an asset. I was on this podcast once with Michael Pena like five weeks ago. I was like, would you trade Dinwiddie and Dwight Powell for Kyrie and Michael

was like no and I was like you're right I wouldn't either like I wouldn't Kyrie's too risky and now he's kind of at least rehabilitated himself look 26-5 and 5 the shooting numbers are what they are he's only missed 10 games like he's

missed fewer games than Butler, Harden, even Drew Holiday. It was a loud 10 games. It was very loud. Well, that's the thing that I will struggle with. Can I be an all-star when I tweet out, let's just call it a problematic movie, and I get suspended,

and the Anti-Defamation League is like, yeah, we don't want your money. And then my whole team is like in complete chaos because of me. And now that's passed and they're not in complete chaos anymore. But if we're looking at this season, like, I don't know. It's going to be a tough one.

Fortunately, he's not on our list. I want to get to Brunson because Brunson's going to be my pick. You mentioned all the Garland stuff. I just want to get to Brunson because Brunson's going to be my pick. You mentioned all the Garland stuff. I just want to pay homage to him for eight seconds. I'm just glad people like Garland still exist in basketball. These kind of unselfish point guards

who can look for their own stuff but are concerned about the other guys. I don't think we have a lot of them anymore. So I don't want him to feel slighted in case he heard this for some reason. I love Darius Garland. Me too. And the best compliment I can give him

is I feel very comfortable when the ball is in his hands, if I'm a Cavs fan. I trust his decision-making. I trust his shooting. Someone on Twitter I saw compared him to Steve Nash the other night.

And although they's interesting, I thought I was thinking more younger, Chris Paul, he reminds me of, but it, you know, he does the under the rim thing that Nash used to do and all that. Like I,

I get, I get who I apologize. I don't, I can't credit the person. I remember who they were, but I get that because I just, there's a certain just sort of like, all right,

the right decision. Is he going to be made here because Darius Garland has the ball. I'm a huge fan. I can't wait to see where his career is. It just seems like he just gets it. I want my point guard to get it. He understands like,

I've got to take care of guys on my team, when to lay out, that he just wants the team to win. He wants to make the right play. And I think last year he was put in that position of kind of having to do too much because they didn't really have any creators. And that's not who he is.

I think he's a way more unselfish player than that. I'm a huge, huge, huge fan. All right, so I have him. Sell me on... You don't actually have to sell me on Brunson, but let me hear the Brunson. Well, quickly on Holiday.

Do you know how many years Holiday's been in the league? I remember those Sixers teams. It's got to be, so like 13 years, 12 years? Drew Holiday's a 14-year veteran. Yeah. He's 32 years old. He's played 867 games, 65 playoff games,

and 30,000 plus minutes. And he's not even in his mid-30s yet. I don't understand it. But he's having a typical Drew Holiday season. All right, here's the Jalen Brunson case. First of all, the Knicks are 22 and 19. Second of all, in the last five minutes of a game, not only are they not a disaster, there's real confidence from the fans, from the players that we're in good hands with Jalen Brunson, which when was the last fucking time the Knicks could say that? He's averaging 22-4-7. He's not a 50-40-90 guy, but not far away, 47-30-85.

Usage rate, 26.4. Old school, 80s guy. Fourth in clutch scoring, just total number of points. And it feels like his team, which I think is the single most important thing and I would give him my guard spot right now if the season ended today because I think to go into that weird Knicks situation

the city that always feels like they never found the right point guard oh we didn't get Mitchell blah blah blah oh my god Jalen Brunson so much money and then he's just made it his team and I love watching him guard. Oh, we didn't get Mitchell, blah, blah, blah. Oh my God. Jalen Brunson, so much money. And then he's just made it his team. And I love watching him. And I think in crunch time, he can go toe to toe against these other dudes. We saw it last night. He went toe to toe with holiday. Um, he's a toe to toe guy, which they've never had. So right now I'd give him the spot. Yeah. He's, he's a 29 of 53 from the field in the last five minutes of games when the score is

within five points it's like almost 60 percent um i was gonna ask you i don't like to think about all-star this way because every team context is so different but you do run into these things where it's like is it weird to give the knicks two all-stars, but the Bucks just one? That feels weird, but maybe it isn't weird. If you had to pick Brunson or Randall, you only get one Knick. You're picking Brunson? No, I think I'm picking Brunson and I think I'm picking Jimmy Butler over Randall,

if those are my choices. I think I would rather have Butler and Brunson than Randall and, and holiday. And I think like now I'm going to neg drew holiday, even though I just, I, we just loved them.

I do think that part of their creator issues that they've had this year, it should be a tiny bit blame on him, right? You don't have Middleton for the whole year. Like, can you step up? And he kind of is who he is. But at the same time, I love him. He's one of my favorite players.

This Jalen Brunson thing. Is this a 2004 Nash level mistake for you yet that Dallas didn't keep him? Turn the fucking TikTok camera on, Kyle. That even... Dallas didn't keep him. Turn the fucking TikTok camera on, Kyle. Here's why I mentioned that. Obviously, losing Nash for $60 million, there were some

defensible pieces to that. He got his ass kicked in the playoff series that year. He had some back issues. I don't think anybody could have predicted the hand check rules and all the things that moved into Nash's favor. At the same time, it was fucking stupid not to keep Steve Nash.

And even no one could have predicted D'Antoni would come in and revolutionize the league. No, you can't predict all that stuff. And yet, it was stupid not to keep Steve Nash and they signed Eric Dampier, which is worse. This Brunson thing to me is more inexcusable, more indefensible, and stupider because they

could have had him for four for 55 before the season. They could have had him for four for 55 in January during the season. Rick Brunson, you can go back and read this. Rick Brunson, who was handling it for his son, he said, quote, I told the Mavericks once the season has started, there's no contract talk. And I went back against my word. In January, I thought he did enough where he deserved the extension.

I said, hey, take the money, man. He wants security. He wants to live here. And they declined. And now I'm saying he's going to be an all-star in the East. And Dallas is wasting this incredible Luka season where they have no second star, basically. I think it's almost worse to waste the Luka season where they have no second star, basically. I think it's almost worse to waste the Luka

season. As great as Dirk was, Luka's ceiling of him is just higher. If they had Brunson, you would say they're probably the favorite in the West or co-favorite. I don't think it's quite a Nash-level mistake, but I'm ready to have the conversation, Zach Lowe.

Nash is a two-time MVP. I get it. There's also the, like, if they had Brunson, they probably wouldn't have Wood thing, which I don't know if you care about that, but it might be an either or just financially. I don't care. You may not care.

I'm good. And, but all the, I've said this before, all the focus on the extension that they did, that they didn't offer in a timely enough fashion, which would look like they would be the best contract in the NBA right now, our top five contract in the NBA from a team value perspective. I remember talking about this right before a month into the season with a smart

person from another team said, well, Zach, forget, forget about that. Like, why didn't they just pay him the max? Like,

like what, what, why didn't they just outbid the Knicks? Like that was an option too. And, and they like when the, when the, when the fallback plan is nothing,

just, just pay him $30 million and hope he's worth it. I was like, oh man, I didn't really think, I was thinking so much about four years 55, I kind of forgot they could have just done that too. I think it's a bigger mistake because it's less defensible. Losing Nash, obviously, and he becomes,

that's like a higher end mistake. This is like, I still can't believe they didn't see what they had. I think they overreacted because he wasn't that great in the 21 playoffs. And probably you can't predict what was going to happen down the stretch in the 22 playoffs, but holy shit. And then it was so funny. Like, I'm sure you had Knicks fans in your life too, who are like, what the fuck with this Jalen Brunson? Why are we paying him 110 million million and just having to have over and over the conversation of like um Jalen Brunson's good he's completely you guys haven't had a reliable point guard in yeah forever you know I mean

Derrick Rose has been really good for them changed their season a couple seasons ago and they won 48 games but you know that there's an expiration date and a minutes limit on Derrick Rose. It's such a bummer because Luka is so special that I'm just, I'm trying to maintain every good piece I have around that guy. And you just can't say that not keeping him. Four for 55 is nothing. I mean, that's fucking, they're paying 16 million for Bertans,

17 for Tim Hardaway, what, 12 for Reggie Bullock, 11 for Dwight Powell but the 16 for Brunson was the deal breaker? It's weird it doesn't add up I do think you're right that his playoff performance pre last year's

conference finals run probably sparked some like small guard playoffs we run into these teams, they put big wings on them. Is that going to just be a thing for his whole career? I do think that may have factored into it. Even as a trade asset, four for 55,

and you can put him with two other contracts. Look, man, they've had a lot of turmoil and topsy-turvy shit happening in their organization, including our friend Haral. Bob was there, he's no longer there. I just think they missed the boat on that one. The Julius Randle we mentioned

and the only one we didn't mention is just if they do that weird thing where they feel like they have to put another center, Jared Allen versus Nick Claxton. I can't believe Nick Claxton, I even wrote him down in an all-star list, but defensively, he's been an absolute monster and he has to be at least mentioned.

I completely agree. And I said on my pod that just came out today, I'm going to sound like an insane person, but I put Nick Claxton on my long list of all-star candidates. So can I throw a couple of names at you and you can tell me how seriously you consider them? I have five more names on my list that we haven't mentioned. So let's see if it's on the list. Brooke Lopez? Didn't have one. Not enough scoring?

Not enough scoring. I do think the pivot that his career took over the last six years is just confounding. I don't understand how he turned into this player versus where we were in 2014. I don't understand it. Shooting 38% on threes, 61% on twos. Might be the defense player of the year front runner. I would not vote for him as defense player of the year, but a lot of people will. I'd vote him pretty high. I would think you'd have to say over Bam if we're talking.

So you're saying you would have him over the Claxton and Jared Allen combo? I'm just saying. I think I actually would have him over both of those guys. I'll tell you the numbers. Don't say it. Don't. No. No.

Okay. Don't. Who do you think I was going to say? Were you going to say Trae Young right there? No. Oh. Okay. Don't. Who do you think I was going to say? Were you going to say Trae Young right there? No. Oh, okay. Okay. Sorry, I braided you.

I got upset. The numbers, both traditional counting stats and the advanced numbers actually quite surprised me. Kristaps Porzingis has a real all-star case. Why are you laughing? I looked at it too and then I was like it's just that prosigus

I can't do it what is it just that they play for the Wizards like that and Wizards is a silly name like 22 and 9 on good shooting good defense

the team is good when he's on the floor like I don't like the advance numbers are good and you just laughed it just seems like when the Wizards are on anyone's schedule, the other team says, oh, let's rest Kawhi today or whoever it is.

If we're giving Claxton and Jared Allen a look, can Miles Turner get a look? I mean, he has better numbers than both of them. He probably should. I was just looking at the Nick Claxton defense stuff. It blew my mind. Jared Allen reputation. Just that... Miles Turner is 17

and 8. 38% from 3. 64% from 2. Defense is... It's Miles Turner. He's pretty damn good. Also, seems really psyched to be on this team. I can't say I love Miles' body language playing in the Twin Towers with Sabonis

and just being used as a three-point shooter, and I don't blame him. But really, it's funny. Like him, Halliburton, Buddy Heald, who I think people always thought was kind of an issue in Sacramento on and off the court to play with, and maybe wasn't always the happiest guy,

but I think in Indiana, he seems super happy. It's just funny that Carlisle is overseeing this team of like this young, happy team of reclaimed projects. And it wasn't what I would have predicted with Carlisle. Give me, I want to know the other names that you said you had five other names on your list. I'm hoping there was one guy that I just thought you were not going to be able to resist just mentioning his name in the conversation. And I'm wondering if he's on your list. Well, I was looking at forward backups for Randall and Butler. Here it comes. Here it comes.

I can feel it. Franz? Yes! That's the one. I knew it. I was like, That's the one. I knew it. I was like, he's totally, Franz is going to be. Look, man. 24 and 4, 49, 35, 86%.

I'm looking at this. He's on my long list, too. I just, I just like, I know he's going to find a way to work Franz Wagner into this. I know it. No, he's my, I have him like 15th on my list. I, uh. Would you trade, would you trade, um, do you think the Celtics would trade Tat. Would you trade? Would you trade? Do you think the Celtics would trade Tatum for Franz Wagner?

Would you do that? Stop. Is Franz Wagner the number one pick in that draft? Would the Celtics have to throw in a pick? Stop. Here's the other thing with Franz Wagner. Really weird guard situation on that team, right? It's just like...

You think? It's just like every night... He's the starting two guard next to Bol Bol and Bankero and Wendell Carter Jr. when they're healthy. And then it's like,

oh, Anthony's playing today. Oh, here's Suggs. Oh, like... But it doesn't seem to really matter. And I've been shocked by how much magic I've watched. Was not expecting that.

Yeah, so if we redid the draft, Mobley's one. But not expecting that. Yeah. So if we redid the draft, Mobley's one, but I think Franz is two. And I don't even really think it's debatable. Cade's three. Is he? Well, Scotty Barnes will be three.

Is he? Well, who am I forgetting? Your guy, Jalen Green are you gonna say Herb Jones should be the numbers for you picking the draft I love Josh Giddey

oh Josh Giddey's good Josh Giddey's really good I think if I had to do it over again I would do Mobley Franz and I think Giddey's

third for me can we just do it K drops to four only because I don't understand what's going on with his leg or why he had to miss the whole for me can we just kate k drops to four only because i don't understand what's going on with his leg or why he had to miss the whole season so can we just take a quick detour um given the jail and jail and green mention and you're you're you're off it off again on again relationship with jail and green friendship we'll call it a friendship yeah i'm rooting for him like what's your level of concern watching the rockets like i don't

under i don't really like understand what's what's happening there hi should we just leave it there like i watched them i'm like this is none of the guys have gotten better except for shangun shangun's good i don't i don't i thought i just thought green was going to be a little more advanced this year as a creator. But they just seem like a mess. I don't think there's real stakes because they're in the Wimbledon thing. I don't think that coach is necessarily going to be there next year. And it's alarming sometimes with them. You're flicking on league pass and it's like, oh, the Rockets are down 30.

It's not good. I don't love the body language. I just don't on league pass and it's like, oh, the Rockets are down 30. It's not good. I don't love the body language. I just don't like a lot of it so far. Now the Rockets fans are going to be mad again. The Eric Gordon, no improvement. No improvement. The other day, it was like, oh, he's just

one step from writing trade me on his shoes like Chris Morris back in the day. When the players start talking to the press that there are problems, that's when that's like the final level. That's why this Atlanta thing got so weird. Nate McMillan like openly talking to the press about, you know, about stories being written about the team.

And yeah. So anyway, I have, I had Franz. I wrote down Bogdanovich and Kuzma just because of the stats are putting up, but you got to write them down. You got to write them down. And then the last guy I wrote down was Trey Young. Oh, I guess we didn't mention, we didn't really talk about Harden Harden's 22, 11 and six,

but he's missed a ton of games. I think Harden, I think you're underselling Harden. Let me make the case for Harden, and it's not a case that I'm thrilled to make. 22-11 at six would lead the league in assists if he qualified. Yeah, but didn't because he's missed six games.

He's missed 15 games. That's fine. Everyone's missed some amount of games. A lot of people have missed games. Plus six and a half with him on the floor per 100 possessions versus plus one and a half off. And they are a solid positive when he plays without Embiid, which is that's been the missing ingredient for them. I think he's been really, really good. And you just...

He's an absolute zero defensively. Okay. I'm just going to add that to everything you laid out I'm not gonna argue with that he's like a DH okay I think he deserves so you just he's out for you too many missed games

no if he had played 34 games instead of 40 I probably would have had him on but he's missed 16 games and he doesn't play defense so did you at least write down DeJounte Murray? I didn't. I tried to keep it a Hawks free list.

I have one thing on Harden. From 17 to 21, the five seasons, he was 10.5 free throw attempts a game. 54% on two-pointers. Okay.

Last two seasons, 7.9 free throw attempts a game. 47.7% on two-pointers. I get that. When you're a guard, if you're under 50% on two-pointers and your free throw attempts are going down, 50 years of watching the league and studying the stats and stuff. To me, that points to the arrow pointing down. Well, I don't think anyone would argue with you there.

I just, and 48% on twos, you'd like to be better. I would just say eight free throw attempts a game is still a lot. And if I'm just considering this year and if I'm the Sixers, my goals of winning the title this year and James Harden's all-star candidacy this year, for a guard, that's still a lot of free throws. For James Harden, it's not a lot of free throws. But that's still pretty damn good. There's some games where he just seems like

he's 25 feet from the basket and that's how he's decided to play that night's game. The Trey thing, 28 and 10, the 31% three-point shooting is just absolutely bizarre. The usage rate of almost 34%. He doesn't play defense at all. He gets picked on constantly and I'm just disappointed. I wanted him to be better as a basketball player after five years in the league. And I don't feel like he's any different than he was three years ago, unfortunately. Yeah, they're getting outscored when he's on the floor.

They're minus five per under possessions when he plays without DeJounte. Everyone stands around and watches him. I do think it's a real thing of like, if this guy dominates the ball and I have to cover for him all the time on defense, like that's going to strain any team, any team. And he has- Might be two coaches

in the Trae Young graveyard soon. He hasn't did enough threes. Like, he's still... He's an offense unto himself. I mean, that's the thing. But, like, the Hawks are 22nd in offense. Like, very quietly, the Hawks have been a bad offensive team.

And they're built to be a... They were number two last year. And they're built to be a great offensive team and a team that just does just enough on defense like they're 22nd in offense the only silver lining I mentioned this last week on the pod is that they're when their best five guys play

together the plus minus stuff's pretty good yeah that's like a foundation yeah that's a foundation of the other silver lining is they is they traded one fewer first-round pick for DeJounte Murray than the Timberwolves traded for Rudy Gobert. And they have to pay Murray, what, in a year? A year and three months?

He's not going to be taking a discount. I would think not. DeJounte Murray's really good. I'm not making fun of the trade. I'm just highlighting. I couldnounte Murray is really good. I'm not making fun of the trade. I'm just saying, I'm just highlighting. I couldn't resist bringing up Gobert. Can I ask you a question?

If they traded DeJounte Murray again in the next 12 months, if he moved a second time, would you be shocked? No, nothing would shock me. Nothing. If they traded Trey Young in 18 months, it wouldn't shock me. If they traded Trey Young in six months it wouldn't shock me if they traded trey young in six months would you be shocked what is it now january and so you're shocked no i mean it's hard what's the last trade that shocked you i guess haliburton sabonis was

like whoa that was it like but what what actually is that would actually harden back in the day, harden one shock. Like what, what hardened 1.0 trade? Yeah. What, what actually shocked you? Like what, if Halliburton Sabonis was a jaw dropper,

I mean, let me ask you this. The top 10 guys don't get traded. So it's like, there's no, like obviously if Giannis got traded, that would be a shocker, but those things don't happen.

If Trey Young got traded within the next four weeks, would you be shocked? No. Me neither. I think the last truly shocking thing that happened was Kawhi going in the Clippers and Paul George joining him. That was it. Whatever that night was. That was, I think, the last truly jaw-dropping shocking night we've had in the NBA.

When there was a literal earthquake in Las Vegas during the Summer League. That was a big one. Nobody saw that one coming. Porzingis to Dallas kind of came fast. Oh, the Kyrie trade was kind of shocking to Boston.

That was a good one. That's a good one. That's a good one. The timing of that one was weird, too. That was late in the game. Yeah. Okay. All right.

I'm so glad we got through this whole pod without talking about LeBron or the Lakers. I will be joining you on what, Friday morning? We're doing the low post? Yeah, that's the plan. After what I'm going to because I'm going to Celtics next Thursday, which was supposed to be a mega game and is now less of a mega game. And I have bad news for you. We are going to

have to talk about LeBron and the Lakers on the low post because we're doing Western Conference All-Stars. One request. Can we put a time limit on how long we're allowed to talk about Jokic? Maybe we have Dan, your producer. Maybe it's like 12 minutes and we have to move on we're not allowed to go more than 12 minutes i think that's like how every group needs a designated driver or something like we just we just someone needs to regulate us on yokage people people a couple

people are like dude you're pretty overboard on Jokic. I'm like, am I? Says who? I'm sorry. I never thought I would see anybody do the Bird Magic stuff again. I just did. I'm so delighted by it. 25, 11, and 9.7 assists.

And he's shooting 62%. I can't believe how many. It's hard to go overboard. It's hard. I can't believe how many... It's hard to go overboard. I can't believe how many Nuggets games I watch. And I'm starting to think about them mentally. As I watch them, I'm like, oh man, one more shooter and we're good. And I'm like, oh no, no. I just want

Jokic to have a moment so badly. It's just Jokic, not the Nuggets. I just want him to make the finals. That'll be fine. But I just Jokic, not the Nuggets. I just want him to make the finals. Well, then I root for the Celtics. That'll be fine. But I want Jokic to make the finals because I don't want him to be a guy

that he's about to turn 30. I'm like, well, he never made the finals. And then it's like, fuck you. That's not why we watch this stuff. This guy is the most fun guy to play with in the league since I don't even remember when. Certainly since you and I knew each other.

And he does stuff every night that I've just never seen before. And he's just, anyway. All right. Well, we used up two of the 10, 12 minutes for Friday. Zach Lowe, good to see you. I'll see you on Friday. Always fun. I'll talk to you.

All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Zach Lowe. Thanks to Kyle Creighton. Don't forget, Rewatchables went up Monday night. We did Sideways, and then I'm going to be on the Off the Pike podcast

on Wednesday, talking Red Sox and Patriots. And if you want to hear more basketball or read more basketball, go to the Ringer Podcast Network or theringer.com, where we just ranked top 100 players. I will see you on the Boston Pod on Wednesday

and on this feed on Thursday, the big playoff preview. Round one, can't have.