The Bill Simmons Podcast - NBA Chatter With Jackie MacMullan, Plus a 2021 Oscars Breakdown With Wesley Morris

Episode Date: March 12, 2021

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Jackie MacMullan to discuss the NBA one year removed from the "Rudy Gobert Game" that paused the NBA season, the stress and fatigue from moving up the start date of the 2020-21 season, All-Star Weekend, NBA trade buzz, and more (2:00). Then Bill talks with Wesley Morris of the New York Times about upcoming Oscar nominations, figuring out what constitutes an "Oscar movie," the disruption of streamers, and more (55:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, if you like Taylor Swift, then why wouldn't you? We have a new podcast called Every Single Album. It's on the Ringer Dish Podcast Network. It is hosted by Nathan Hubbard and Nora Princiati. They just did the second Taylor Swift album, Fearless. That is up right now in the Ringer Dish Podcast, where you can also find me and Dave Jacoby breaking down the challenge every Wednesday night.

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details. You must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem called winning a hundred gambler or visit rg-help.com. We're also brought to you by theringer.com as well as the Ringer Podcast Network. Coming up, we're going to talk NBA with Jackie McMullen and movies and Oscar season with my old, old, old dear friend, Wesley Morris. That's all next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, we're taping this piece. It is 1.30 Pacific time, 4.30 Eastern time.

Jackie McBowen is here. The NBA comes back in full steam tonight. We're going to talk about a one-year anniversary of, I guess, the day we call it the Go-Bear Game when everything changed. It was leading up to the week before Boston's Sloan Conference is five, six days beforehand. There's Utah's in Boston. The Utah guys getting infected. I mean, it actually feels like it could have been a lot worse from that standpoint, but in some ways it feels like it's been a year and other ways it feels like it's been five years. But one thing that is for sure is the NBA is a hell of a lot different a year later. What's the biggest thing that's jumped out to you in the past year other than the no fans?

You know, I think the dirty little secret, Bill, is just the mental health of... We talked a little bit about the mental health of the players. I think it's that plus the mental health of the coaches. I would add the GMs, everybody involved. Like it just... There wasn't enough time. There wasn't enough time off. And they knew that.

And that's why they wanted to start in January, but their broadcast partners put their foot down. And it just, I see, I still feel the ripple effects of it when you talk to guys, which is not easy to do these days because you're not in an arena. You're not sitting down and shooting the breeze with guys before the games like we normally do. But when you get people on the phone or in a private moment, you know, one GM said to me about three days ago, this is so stupid. You know, they got to do it. But they're like, it's just, you know, one of the one another different GM said to me, you know, I went in the other day to our guys and their team is scuffling a little bit. And he said, I didn't like I wasn't talking about like, hey, you know, you need to keep your elbow in. He said, I just went to all and and said like, are you guys okay?

I'm not talking about basketball, like, are you okay? Yeah. Because it's been a long haul now. And I think it's obviously a reflection of society as a whole. It's been a long haul for all walks of life in every profession. And not to mention the people that aren't working. We could spend a whole day on that. But that to me is the overwhelming thing that I noticed.

And, uh, there's still great basketball being played. I give the guys that are gutting through this amazing amount of credit, especially those final four teams, which I think when you look back now, they all have struggled. Yeah. The Lakers, not until Anthony Davis went down, but the Celtics, certainly. The Denver Nuggets came out of the, you know, the gate six and seven, the Miami Heat. You know, they were a planned team or out of the playoffs in the early start. And I don't think that's a coincidence.

So I did Sloan Conference with Adam two years ago. And the thing that ended up making news was his real concern for the players and the mental health and all that stuff. And that was the season you ended up writing a big piece about, at least one piece. Some other people have written about it and how this was kind of the lurking fear with the teams, with the commissioner and all this stuff. A lot of it was driven by social media and just what it's like to be on display 24-7, guys being tied to their phones, constant kind of criticism, evaluation, things like that. And also the changing nature of the league where people are just moving around constantly. And, you know, honestly, some stuff that's going on with maybe the under 32 generation too, which is that first generation that's grown up online. And then you see everything

kind of manifests itself this year. What, what things are you hearing when, when, like when a GM goes in, asks his team, are they okay? What are some of the things they're worried about with their teams and like trying to keep a culture in the pandemic? Like what are the lessons we've learned through a year here? Well, I think that GM is doing his job by asking the question, because if you ignore it, you're going to have a hard time. And, you know, the mental health movement, I think started about two and a half, three years ago, maybe it started before that, but teams, almost every team now has a vast array of mental health services available to their teams and to their players. And I think the destigmatization of being willing to say, I need the help, that I'm getting the help.

You know, I always thought, you know, I did a five-part series and I spent a whole year and a half on it. And the one that always stuck out to me was Marcus Morris, because he's just one of the baddest dudes around. He's a nasty guy that nobody wants to fool with. And he and his brother, Markeith Morris, acknowledged some of the things they went through as kids growing up in North Philly and how that affected them going forward usually means there's a fire. You don't pull it off or change the battery, right? You don't go to check to see what's wrong with the firearm. You're supposed to look where the smoke is, what caused the fire. And too often with mental health, at least in my

research and what I've done is we tend to treat the symptoms, not the root of it. And I think teams understand that now. And that's a huge thing to take on. So think about Kyrie Irving for a minute. Okay. Kyrie Irving took that time away from the Brooklyn Nets and he hasn't fully explained it and nor does he have to, in my opinion, it's his own business. He did reference that it was a mental health thing beyond that. Not after that, it's really none of our business. It's a confidential thing. It's, and it's a serious thing, I think, among him and other players.

And, you know, I'm just going to take a wild stab at it that with Kyrie or any of these other players, it isn't as simple as what's going on in that moment.

It's not as simple as George Floyd. What that does is trigger memories and experiences that most of these, no, I shouldn't say most. I'll retract that.

Many of these players have experienced firsthand as young guys. And that triggers it. And think about that, you know? And if that happened to you, like, you know, driving while black, like I have a million black friends that always joke about driving while black, you know?

Guys walking down the street, things, you know, getting stopped for no reason. So these are all triggers for these guys. And, uh, and I think that's why this social justice movement was so emotional for so many of them and had such ramifications for so many of them, because all of them, if they haven't experienced it themselves, and I would say most of them have, but if they haven't, someone in their family has. And so that's why it was important.

That's why it's so important. And, and that's why I think so many of these players are just beginning to understand that, you know, if I have a mental health issue, if I'm struggling with something, it's really the same thing as having tendonitis in my knee. I know people have a hard time making that jump, but that's what this league is contending with. And so to then go back into the season so quickly, so soon, and you're dealing with parameters again, you're, you know, we've got guys testing positive right and left. You're not in a bubble anymore, but in a lot of ways, some of

the players I've talked to feel like this is worse because, you know, you don't know which, when a guy shows up to practice, where he's been, what he's done, who he's been with, and how it's going to affect you. Well, and then the other piece, which I feel like there hasn't been enough reporting on it yet, only because we don't really know the totality of the side effects, but it's clear in football and in basketball. Some of these guys that have had COVID have not been the same when they came back. So last year with Kendrick Nunn, you saw it recently,

like just as a Celtics fan, I don't feel like Tatum has looked a hundred percent right since he came back. And then he finally admitted like, yeah, I don't feel a hundred percent yet. So you have a bunch of people who have gotten this. Michael Porter,

Jr. Michael Porter, Jr. Got it twice. And you don't think that it's affected the Denver Nuggets. They? He was out for 21 days. He was supposed to be their third guy. The poor kid hasn't, I say the poor kid, but he hasn't even had a chance to really get his sea legs under him yet. Now, maybe he will in the second half. The last few games before the All-Star break, he started looking really good again. And I think he'll get there. but yeah, it's affected these guys mentally and physically. There's no doubt about it. And then you saw the league's worst nightmare was Simmons and Embiid on their way to the all-star game. And it, you know, it opened up that door of what would have happened, which, you know, leads to the other question here of, I, Adam Silver, I think since

he took over, it's been just a slew of wins for him. And I thought it was one of the better commissioner jobs I've ever seen. And was certainly one of my favorite commissioners ever. And the last year hasn't been great for him. Now, the question is, would it have been great for anybody? For anybody.

Who's doing well in that job? Like, it's just, you know, it was the first time he was in, he was in something of an insolvable situation in some ways. Like it's just, you know, it was the first time he was in, he was in something of an insolvable situation in some ways. Right. But then, you know, I think the pushing, pushing for the season, there were real money reasons for that. They were all explained, but they knew it was going to be Rocky. And he kind of had to be like a big brother. He wasn't like an angry dad, like Stern. He wasn't like, you're doing this. Oh yeah. I'm telling you, he didn't have that dynamic. He's very careful about

being the older white guy who's ordering around a mostly black league for what to do. Yeah. The all-star game I thought was kind of indefensible. I was really, and I'm not one of those people who loves to, Oh, I'm so bit out of shape. Like ultimately, whatever they played it, it was fine. It was it was just to me this was a league that needed a break they needed a person everybody needed a week off like let's just right let's take a breath we'll come back in a week this was a fucking crazy sprint

we had here right and then they're like well no we need the money from the all-star game it's like honestly how much money was it to have an all-star game with the stupid contest we had you know the game was whatever but um one of the lowest rated games ever had, you know, the game was whatever, but, um, I thought it was one of the lowest rated games ever.

I think, you know, one of the lowest rated games in many years. So, and it opened the door for, and it didn't happen. I was surprised it didn't happen, but one of the signature guys in the league to really go at him.

And maybe that's a credit to Adam that he has been able to build enough relationships and enough equity with the best players that none of them went at him. But you could tell LeBron was pissed off. He barely played in the game. None of those guys did. And I think what that comes back to is, you know, you're involved with the Players Association. Chris Paul's your president. Michelle Roberts, you're working with them closely.

And, you know, we talk about the money. Remember, the money goes to the players, too. So guys like LeBron, they don't need the money. But a lot of those guys do. You know, there's a lot of guys that do need that money. Remember the money goes to the players too. So guys like LeBron, they don't need the money, but a lot of those guys do, you know, there's a lot of guys that don't, that do need that money. So I actually tipped my hat to LeBron for, first of all, vocalizing. I don't, I don't think we should be going and, but I'm going to go, but I don't think we should. I liked that. By the way, I kind of liked that he went because I think he was saying, I'm going to take one for the team here, you know, and he didn't play that much, but he, you because I think he was saying, I'm going to take one for the team here. And he didn't play that much.

But once he got there, it didn't rain all over it. So I give the players some credit here. But here's the part that just doesn't, I don't care how you want to slice it. The NBA was held up as the model of decorum with the bubble and taking all these, an abundance of caution. I keep hearing this. My parents are in assisted living facility. If they tell me one more time, I can't go visit my parents in their apartment because out of abundance of caution, I'm going to scream, right? Because they're both vaccinated and have been for a month. But this to me is the same idea out of abundance of caution. The NBA created this bubble and they were, you know, marveled

throughout the land, throughout the world. They put the safety of their players first. Well, how on earth can they possibly say that now? They can't. They can't. No. So, and I guess they're okay living. I guess they can live with that, you know?

And that's business, right? That's business. Well, what's frightening with this is they learn from football. Football is basically the show must go on. But think about who they learn from. The league that has almost contempt for their players. It's not even like they have no regard for their players. They almost have contempt for them.

And the NBA is like, cool, that model will work. Listen, again, I think it's unsolvable. But I think there was some smart stuff they could have done here, especially with the All-Star break. Now it looks like a lot of people are getting vaccinated. We're starting to see in some states crowds are coming back. We'll see how that goes. Masks are coming off in Texas, for crying out loud.

Yeah, yeah. So that stuff makes me nervous. But still, it looks like we're going to have fans at playoff games in June. Yeah, we are. I mean, sooner than that, in your old hometown, there will be fans March 27th watching the Celtics play. But so if I'm the 76ers, I have a scare with my two best players. They end up having to leave the All-Star game. They're okay. And as far as we know, I believe that they're all set. I know they're not going to play in the first game back, but by all accounts,

and that could change, but by all accounts, and that could change, but by all accounts, neither one of them are positive. They're good to go. If you're Daryl Morey and Doc Rivers, aren't you like secretly glad this worked out better

than anything possible? True, they got a real break. They got a break. Your guys didn't play. They didn't get, you know, and Bede's a bit of a wise guy. You know, the wrong guy could maybe, you know, hit him a little harder than he should in an all-star game. He's puffing his chest out as in, as the presumptive MVP at the moment, which

I don't disagree with. So if I'm, if I'm doc, if I'm Daryl Morey, Josh Harris, I'm like, yeah, this worked out. Okay. After all. And that's a bad thing. You know what I mean? Right. That's not great. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you can still walk or run 60 kilometers,

host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. We've seen the wear and tear. We talked about the players. You mentioned the coaches, the GMs, people that work for teams. Anybody I've talked to who works for a team is just like, this sucks. Yeah, they're fried. This fucking sucks. It is the worst. I'm so tired of being tested. It sucks to come to work. The games suck. There's no energy in this dance. everybody's just kind of miserable and if you're a scout like think about that like your season so let's take the coaches your season ends and then you've got to look over what just happened and you you know

off season is when they look at film and they decide am i going to tweak the way we play what about our personnel you Free agency, the draft, all that got crammed into one little... These guys didn't have any time off, no break at all. At least the players, I'm going to assume, had a little bit of a break between the end of their season and when they started up again. But I can guarantee you the coaches and the GM, they did not. And I just think everybody's fried. And and look they'll get through it and you know whoever wins the 2021 nba championship there's no asterisk because everybody's operating under the same rules you know unless someone ends up with covid you know in game six of the nba finals so

the question becomes do you go back to some form of a postseason bubble is that even possible i they everybody i've talked doesn't seem like it no way no way in hell it will not happen right When it comes, do you go back to some form of a post-season bubble? Is that even possible? Everybody I've talked to says no way in hell. It will not happen. Right, right. So that means somewhere along the way, I think somebody's going to lose a key player somewhere along the way to this disease. It's going to happen.

How can it not? Right. And the difference with this, in football, you could maybe get away with it and you might have enough time to recover on basketball. Yeah. Especially. Yeah, there's one game a week in football. Game five, game six is two days later. Yeah. You know, I was thinking about how this is going to affect. I always go back to the trade deadline because it's one of my favorite things. I love the trade machine trades, things like that. Assessing guys this year that you might trade for,

because we have a lot of suitors. There's a lot of playoff teams who either they feel like they have a chance to avoid the plan and actually be one of the top six seeds. They're borderline contenders that feel like they're one move away, like Boston, Denver, people like that. And in a weird way, it seems like an opportunity to steal somebody who's in a bad situation. That's a bad situation, not for the normal reasons. Right. So I think in a weird way, it's harder for bad teams to evaluate their own players more than ever. That's usually, if you're going to make a good trade, if you're going to steal somebody from a team, you're usually stealing from the dysfunctional franchise, right? You're stealing

from the Kings and, and, uh, Minnesota and these teams that just can't get their shit together. Those are the best teams to trade with. Now this year, teams can't get their shit together for reasons that don't have anything to do with front office incompetence. So from a trade deadline standpoint, you might be able to cherry pick somebody who's really good or somebody who's just a team like Atlanta as an example, right? I don't think they'll trade John Collins. I don't think they should trade John Collins, but that team, you know, if they have one more bad week coming out of the gate, it's going to be pretty hard for them to, you know, get higher than like a nine seed.

Is it going to be possible to steal guys like that. So that's what I'm watching these next three weeks. And people keep telling me, John Collins, I mean, Minnesota's dying to have him. Minnesota wants him bad. What will they offer? I don't know. They really want him. And I think there are other teams too,

but from what I understand, Minnesota particularly. And so if you're the Hawks, you're looking at John Collins and Trey Young together, you know, does it work? I mean, Trey's not going anywhere. You already offered this guy some money. He didn't take it. How much are you going to have to pay him?

You and I have talked before about probably the key to their season was when DeAndre Hunter went down. Yes. I mean, he was really, really good. And I think he'll be back soon. They said it's still going to be like two, three more weeks, which I couldn't believe by that point, they might be like buried in the 12 seed. Abundance of caution, Bill. Abundance of caution. But anyway, but, but so for them, you're talking about evaluating, you know, don't you want to evaluate your future with Hunter

Collins and Trey Young all on the floor together, but you have not had that luxury. You have not had that luxury. So now what happens? So this is, you know, Harrison Barnes is the hot name again now, because we thought, you know, all along you and I, we always talk about the Celtics. It's Harrison Barnes. Well, he won't be available because the Kings had a little bit of something going on. Maybe they had a chance for the plan. Well, that's changed dramatically here. So Harrison Barnes, everybody's going to want Harrison Barnes. Will they trade him? If you're the Kings, you got a new GM, Monty McNair, who I happen to have great respect for. I got to know Monty a little bit when he was in Houston. He's another Houston guy in place for the Rockets. He's been there, I don't know, five minutes.

And he's going to ask to completely retool his roster. I mean, it's a lot to ask for these guys. Well, and he has the top four pick hanging over him. If they're fifth, they lose their pick. So it's like, they really have to tank. They need to be one of the two worst teams in the league, at least. So I think all those dudes are for sale.

So Victor Oladipo, right? Where does he go? Yeah, and that's a hard fit. Russell and I talked about him a little on Sunday night, I think. I thought he played well in Indiana. I thought there were signs of like like this guy is starting to make sense and they really haven't been the same since they made that trade because they turned him into Levert

who immediately had the kidney thing I mean that was just incredibly bad luck yeah terrible luck but they lost a guy who was 19 points a game

and just didn't replace him right but you know to bring him into another team mid-season he's certainly not going to be well what if it's Miami well what if it's Miami but then he's like a six man right he's not going to be. Well, what if it's Miami?

Then he's like a six man, right? He's not going to be somebody that is influential. I don't know. Depends who you trade, Bill. Depends who you trade for him. Depends who goes out the door the other way. You can't keep all those young guys if you're going to get Oladipo. You've got to give up one of them. Maybe two. You've got to give up one of those guys to get them

if you're going to do that deal, which I don't know if they are or they aren't. Denver seems to me, Denver and Dallas seem to be the two low risk teams that could just use somebody like that pretty clearly. That's interesting. What do you give up? Well, Dallas, you know, they have trouble trading their picks. Maybe Josh Green's in the trade, the guy they took last year in the first pick. They have expirings to give back.

Denver has some assets because Denver also has the Harris contract. Josh Green's in the trade. The guy they took last year in the first pick, they have expiring to give back. Denver, Denver has some assets because Denver also has the Harris contract who he expires next year. You can talk yourself into Harris needing a change of scenery and there's enough there. Like he's such a good defensive player. Yeah, it really is a shot.

Could you get his confidence back? All that stuff. Um, and then they have bowl, bowl, they have Hampton, they have some picks. And then the Celtics, obviously.

And then Golden State, if they wanted to get aggressive with the Oubre spot. If they wanted to. You know, Denver's interesting to me. I've got a piece coming out next week with Jamal Murray. He had some interesting things to say. That's what we call a tease.

But anyway, one of the things he was talking about was the lack of, it's not in my story because it didn't fit, but a lack of a rim protector for them. Like he wants them to go out and get a rim protector because he said, it's too much to ask Jokic to do that for us on top of everything else he's doing. We, you know, we need some rim protection because, you know, they lost Grant. They knew what Millsap Grant and Plumlee,

they wanted to keep two of the three. They knew they were going to lose one and they knew it was probably going to be Grant because again long term if you're going to pay you're going to pay Porter I think that's the idea and you know the Devers so Tim Conley like talk about an amazing job his biggest problem is he drafts all these great players and then he can't afford to keep them like Malik Beasley you know like Torrey Craig they couldn't pay him you know Jeremy Grant they just in then he can't afford to keep them like Malik Beasley, you know, like Torrey Craig. They couldn't pay him. You know, Jeremy Grant. They just in the end weren't going to be able to pay him that and pay everybody else. So they never expected to lose two of those three.

And Plumlee, he's easy to make fun of because some of the, you know, the bloopers that happened to him in the postseason last year. But he was very important to them. He was he was a very good guy off the bench. Then he's important defensively. So that was a loss that I think sometimes goes under the radar for them. Well, those rim protector guys, there's just not a lot of them. It's one of those things that sounds so much better on paper.

I think it's why the Celtics are so intrigued by Robert Williams. Right. You know, because it's like the ceiling of whatever he is. There's not many people out there like that. That's why Dwight Howard got signed by the Lakers last year and by Philly this year. And there's just, those guys are hard to find. I agree with Jamal Murray on the Jokic thing. Like ideally it's like that late eighties,

John Sally type who could be kind of a run the floor. Great example. Great example. Long arms, can protect the rim a little, isn't going to need the ball that much, stuff like that. But to me, Denver and Boston are the two teams that can change wherever they're pigeonholed right now in the top 11, right?

Because I think both teams are clearly a player away. The Celtics are at least getting smart back. I just don't like their bench at all. And I really think they need to fix something there. They need to add someone on their bench. But see, in my mind, they're getting Michael Porter back. That's how I view it. Because you know, Michael Porter and my boy, Jamal Murray, you and I, you know, you were asking for bubble Jamar, look at his numbers.

What were the last 13 games for the all-star break? Yeah. Better, better than bubble Jamal. Just telling you, he's a candidate for the, uh, right after the all-star break, somebody going nuts guy, which happens every year. Well, he's a slow starter every year. His career consistently, which is not a good thing, and it's something he should probably change, but he's been notoriously slow. And I think I have my own theories on that. It's because he's a guy that just has a hard time taking his day off. You know, he's one of those tunnel vision guys that works out all the time.

And, you know, LeBron's like that, too. but LeBron knows how to taper, knows how to build it up, knows how to pull it back. And, and, you know, that's something maybe Jamal will learn with time, you know? Well, it's going to be an especially fascinating month because the trade deadline's the 25th. It's also, we're going to get to the end of this month. People are going to be into March Madness, you know, this season will be back. And people are going to look up and there's going to be like 22 games left. I know. Crazy, right?

And it'll be like, holy shit, Miami's still a nine seed. And there's, now we only have, you know, 30, 25% of the season left. Right. But I do think the one thing that the play-in game has done, intentionally or otherwise, that it is why you're not hearing as many trades as you normally would. Because teams that are desperate to get in the playoffs, even if they get trounced in four games, they want to get there.

And the play-in game gives them either the illusion or the incentive, depending on how you look at it, to think that maybe they can get there. And then maybe you hold on to Thaddeus Young in Chicago as an example. Well, it's such a fascinating wrinkle for these, specifically with Charlotte and with Chicago and with New York, who all of whom have the moves to actually go and get another guy. Right. But it's like, all right, what's the purpose of that? Well, the purpose would be,

you might be able to get a sixth seed. Right. And Malik Monk, your guy, Malik Monk, they, you know, what's the purpose of that? Well, the purpose would be you might be able to get a six seed. Right. And Malik Monk, your guy, Malik Monk, there was talk about him moving on. But now, would you move him now? I don't know. No. He's the most, him and Bruce Brown are the two most untradable guys in the league.

There you go. The other thing, if you're a six seed, if you're a six seed in the East, that means you're avoiding probably you're avoiding, um, probably Brooklyn and Philly, who knows Milwaukee might have a run, but in the COVID era where you might be in a playoff series with somebody and it's two, two, and then all of a sudden it's like, so-and-so has been scratched. Who knows, you know, and the vibe's going to be weird with, with the fans. And I just think it's a lot like last year where it would have been inconceivable

that we were going to have a Miami Lakers finals. Even if I bet on it, it still felt inconceivable. Yeah. This year, I feel like there's a possible inconceivable finals. You look at the West. I'm not sold on any of those teams

if Davis isn't 100%. Right. I don't like a single West team. You don't like your Clippers. You don't like your Clippers. Tell me why. I was on Zach's pod and we kind of laid into the Clippers for

like five minutes. To me, it's like one of those movies where it's a nice looking cast but none of them are really clicking at any of the scenes. Yeah, that's interesting. You know what I mean? I do.

They don't have that guy who makes other guys better, which the Celtics have a little bit of that problem too, but... They do. There's just a lot of ball stoppage. I don't like the way they look in the last five minutes of games.

And honestly, I don't think they're nearly as good defensively as I think we expected they were going to be. No, consistently they haven't been because I kept waiting. But consistently they have not been. I don think we expected they were going to be. Consistently, they haven't been. Because I kept waiting. But consistently, they have not been. I don't know if it's going to be there. And the reality is Kawhi is not 2016 defensive Kawhi anymore.

He's just not. I mean, he's still elite. I don't know. He's still elite. He's not the guy. He's not that guy anymore. See, it all rests on Paul George in my mind. What's Paul George going to give you?

I know what Kawhi is going to give me. And he didn't give you enough last year, and that's why you didn't win. But I always want Kawhi with me when we get down to the dirty business. But the thing is, everybody's got two good guys now. My fear with that team, it's not even a fear.

I don't care how they do. But the three through 12, I I don't care how they do, but like the three through 12, I just don't trust anybody they have. And I said to Zach the other day, like they're going to have a playoff game come down to Nick Batum in the corner wide open. And he's going to hit

the side of the backboard. I'm telling you, we've watched this whole career. It's either the airport or he's going to hit the side of the backboard. I'm telling you now, it's going to happen.

You know, it's so funny about Nick Batum. I was saying to someone the other day, he would, to me has been so far, one of those examples of just change the scenery for the guy, lower the expectations and he'll, he'll be good for you. Cause that's what happened. You know, that no one, no one in Clipper land was expecting what Charlotte was expecting from Nick Patu. And so now it's just sort of fly under the radar and, you know, he's been helpful. He's been helpful. It's like when somebody

transfers in college and they leave all their baggage behind from the other college, whatever happened, the three times they got suspended and when they got kicked off campus. The new college is just fresh.

Shows up here, it's like, oh, Nick Batum. Glue guy. It's like, no, that guy quit last year. I don't know. I don't trust him.

Yeah, I'm not a Clipper fan. But like, you know, I mean, I just keep pointing to James Harden. Like's like, no, that guy quit last year. I don't trust him. Yeah, I'm not a Kuiper fan. But like, you know, I mean, I just keep pointing to James Harden. Like, James Harden quit on Houston, obviously, basically admitted as much. And you couldn't have a more model citizen in Brooklyn than James Harden. It just astounds me every day. And I keep asking, and I keep hearing the same thing. He shows up early. He's buying into strength and conditioning.

He's doing everything they ask. So does it stay from beginning to the end? Is he really, is James Harden really not going to care in game six of the Eastern Conference Finals if he gets the ball or not? If the answer is no, man, I just really love Brooklyn's chances, you know? Because if if seriously,

it's been fantastic. It's been a referendum on the dumbest argument of the year, which was that why did Steve Nash get a chance to be a head coach and what are his qualifications? It's like, all right, well, his qualifications were he was a transcended point guard who put more thought into this shit than anybody. I think he's done a really good job this year. Look, I like Steve. Yeah,

we all do, but I've never met anyone that doesn't like Steve, but that, that was a really hard team to coach. Think of all the shit that's happened to them. He's lost a rant like four different times. Yeah. Kyrie just takes off.

Doesn't even tell him where he's going. He loses his center. Who's really his only good center. Cause Deandre Jordan's not that good. Brings in Harden. Harden completely reinvents himself as this new version of James Harden. And now that's the team, if we had to bet our lives, everyone's betting on Brooklyn. And I don't know, I just think that was a hard team to coach. He won't get credit for it, but it was. I think he will because I think he's his personality is such he doesn't force himself on anybody. And I think that's just

the exact way to handle these guys. And I will say this. Is anyone else a little worried about Durant? Another MRI on that hamstring? Mm-hmm.

You know, I'm concerned. No, I'm glad you mentioned that. I noticed that yesterday. I saw on the ticker it was like, Kevin Durant is going to miss the Celtic game tonight. Like, really? So this is now a longer injury than just bothering him a couple games. And you think like the fear with this Achilles thing going way back was just, he has long limbs, long ligaments, long everything. And when you have a traumatic injury like that, how does it affect the rest of your body? How does stuff realign?

What kind of stress are you putting on different pieces? So the fact that he's already been pretty banged up this year and they really haven't played that many games. I personally think is a little worrisome. I do too. And I, you know, he's not a big, he's a big guy. He's a tall, lanky guy. He's never been stout per se. You know, we've all seen the x-rays of his hockey feet. You know, he has a very unusually shaped body.

And, you know, like that foot injury he had, you know, there was real concern that was going to end his career at one point. So I'm certainly not wishing any of that on him. Uh, I thought he's, he's handled himself so well, but, uh, I didn't like hearing that. I don't, I, you know, if I'm a Nets fan, that's got me a little worried. Well, here's the reason why it's important because unless they have some deadline move, we don't know about it. He's going to be there stretch five in the, uh, in the playoffs for four straight playoff rounds. And their best lineup is going to be their stretch five in the playoffs for four straight playoff rounds.

And their best lineup is going to be him at center and Bruce Brown's going to be out there and Harris and Kyrie and Harden. And maybe there'll be, you know, maybe you go a little bit more size at some point. If you're playing Philly, maybe DeAndre Jordan's out there. But for the most part, it's going to be Durant. And if he's not physically 100%,

that's the biggest obstacle for them. Because he's actually the glue guy they can't lose. Well, maybe that's why they're holding him out so long. So maybe, you know, that could be it. Maybe they're just saying, look, we don't care about any of these games because we know what our team is. Whether we finish the number one seed or not in the East,

we know we're the best team in the East as long as Kevin Durant is completely healthy. So maybe that's what they're doing. And if so, I tip my cap to him. Did seeing what Harden has been able to do in Brooklyn from scratch and reinvent himself yet again, change the way you feel about him historically as one of the few people along with myself who actually cares about the giant board of players and how they all rank against each other and all that stuff?

You know, I think it, I think it does because I saw so many games, this incredible talent, that's obvious, just sort of melt at the end of games and just make these, I'm not talking just about playoff games and, you know, and you go, what is that about? And this way, you know, I'm watching him now and he always makes a great play, whether sometimes it's shooting it, but hardly ever it is. And he seems to be embracing it. You know, I think I've said this before. What we'll know for sure is when Kyrie and Kevin

and James are all on the floor and it's, you know, the Eastern Conference semifinals, let's say, and they're down 15 and the series is tied two to two or something. Then how do they all act? Because that's when you really find out what people are made of. How is James Harden going to act then? I'm not doubting him at the moment because I appreciate what he's doing.

But that's what we'll really find out. That's what we'll find out who the adult in the room is. So I always thought of this stuff, like the last level of the video game for the greatest players. How can you fit into any situation? It's basically like the Belichick football coaching, right? It's not, I don't have a system. I just, here's my team this year.

I'm going to figure out the best way to coach this particular group of guys. So, you know, I was, obviously I'd like to bring everything back to Larry Bird on this podcast. One of the fun things with Bird was watching him in the all-star games and just seeing him calculate like, this is back when the all-star game mattered. How can I fit in? What do we need? Oh, you know what we need in this one? Rebounding. I'm just going to go grab some rebounding. Oh, we should play fast. I'm going to speed it up and just fit in. And I think like LeBron magic, you name any great player, Durant's another one. Perfect example. I didn't know if Harden had that in him. I gotta be honest. I thought the thing with Harden for me was he could do it on OKC,

ironically, a million years ago where he kind of fit in as this Ginobili 2.0. But it seemed like a lot of his success in Houston was based on, let's cater this situation to me. I am the star of this movie and get me the support. But it has to be all me and it's got to all run through me. I don't feel like he's playing like that this year. I actually feel like he's really inclusive with everybody else. I didn't know he had it in him. Yeah, no, I agree. And that's, that's the one thing when that trade was made. I don't think anyone said this is horrible, but you just were like, how's it going to work? And Harden's like, here, let me show you, let me show you how it's going to work. I give him a lot of credit. I really do. Well, it's like when Barkley made the dribble,

the dribble brothers joke, the dribble brothers was like brothers joke the dribble brothers is like that's a good joke because that's true they're all going to be dribbling that's not how they are I actually think that's much more basketball-y than that and I'll tell you what else say what you want Kyrie is playing out of his mind you know he's been unbelievable he's been so good

you forget how good he is sometimes you know with all the other stuff they're really good. Now, can they outscore teams? That's what I asked every coach, every GM that I talked to. You know, can they defend? Like, does it have to be they have to score? And they all say the same thing.

No, they can defend. They'll defend when it matters. And I said, can you turn on off defense like that? And most of them said, yeah, you can if you're as good as they are. So I'll take them at their word. Yeah, I agree with that. Before we go, let's talk Hall of Famers really quickly. They announced all the Hall of Fame finalists.

Our guy Paul Pierce was on there. A whole bunch of other ones. My guy Doug Collins. Doug Collins was not on there. There was a couple of interesting ones, including Bill Russell, who's already in, obviously. Right. He gets in as a coach. In the finals, yeah.

Which makes sense because he was the first black coach. He was a player coach that won two straight titles. I think what he did was actually really underrated in those last two years in Boston when you think these are the days you could almost, it would be easier to be a player coach now than it would be in 1969,

where it's like his assistant coach was John Havlicek. He didn't even have an assistant. Assistant coach was like the trainer. What's his name? Buddy LaRue. Yeah. And they had a thing like, if he ever got thrown out of a game,

Havlicek would take over. Like there were no coaches. No, that's right. That's right. So in a weird way, it was impressive. But I just assume, I guess I'm still trying to figure out

what the Hall of Fame is, but I just assume Bill Russell's in, he's in, but they pigeonhole people in these different spots. Well, like Lenny Wilkins. Lenny Wilkins is in three times. So Lenny Wilkins is in as a player,

as a coach, and as part of the Dream Team. Sokins is in three times. So Lenny Wilkins is in as a player, as a coach, and as part of the dream team. So he's a three-time Hall of Famer. There you go. Yeah, so that hurts somebody like Doug Collins because to me, the totality of the Doug Collins career, going back to the most clutch free throws anyone's ever made in the history of basketball, and then he gets boned out of a gold medal.

He would have been a hero. He's had some good coaching moments. Yeah, and injuries, but was a really good player. Was the number one draft pick. And just the totality of 50 years combined with the announcing and the fact that he was one of the best announcers for a long time.

Feels like Hall of Fame-y, but he has no chance under the way the criteria is now, I would say. Well, see, I think I always say like for all these guys, if you're doing your job, whether you're doing it as a voter, a Hall of Fame voter, or our job talking about who should be in and isn't,

you have to look beyond. Like if you looked at Bill Russell's coaching record, you'd be like, oh yeah, he won two championships, but he was playing. He had the best player on the team. Oh yeah, that was me. And his seven year, I think his career winning percentage is 54% or whatever,

but that's not what it's about. Right. And so Doug Collins is a good example of that. And you know, the other guy, no one's talking about who's a finalist is Rick Adleman. And Rick Adleman, everyone's like, well, he never won. He never won a championship. And I don't know what his career percentage is.

I don't have it in front of me, but I will tell you this. I did a story on year on coaches' plays and how coaches steal plays from one another. And everybody, and I mean everybody, that I talked to for that story had stolen a play from Rick Adleman. Because he ran that corner series and his whole thing was with the three bigs,

with Vladi and all those guys with the Kings. There's 17 teams, I think I counted, that play some form of Rick Adleman's offense, including in Denver, who's, I believe his son is assistant coach there. And David Adleman, who's a very good coach. But

my point is this, if you look at him just on face value, you'd be like, well, I don't know if he belongs in. But if you know the history of the game and the story behind it and the influence he had, it's like why Tex Winter's in the Hall of Fame. Tex Winter's won exactly zero games as an NBA head coach, I believe. I don't think he was ever head coach.

Zero. But, you know, we can argue, people argue about whether he invented the triangle offense. To me, it's semantics. He perfected it, introduced it all around the world, and teams everywhere play it. That's why Tech's winner's in the Hall of Fame. In my mind, a guy like Rick Adleman also deserves to be in the Hall of Fame,

even though his numbers might tell you something different. That's why Hall of Fames are tricky, because we can name a whole bunch of guys that score a lot of points, have more points than Ben Wallace, by the way, 5.7 career point per game average. He's a finalist and I think should get in because he was one of the best defensive players of his generation of his, the time he played. He helped the Pistons win a championship and his numbers tell you something different, but I'm telling you that guy was a Hall of Famer. So it's subjective, right? To some degree.

Ben Wallace is a good one because he was, I remember in my book, I did the playoff MVPs because we don't have playoff MVPs. Right, right. He was the playoff MVP in 2004. Like his numbers were great. More importantly,

Shaq was a guy that nobody had successfully guarded in the finals in the two thousands and Ben Wallace, you know, except for game four, like was between him and Rashid. They were able to kind of keep a good relative check, you know, and their whole game plan.

Yeah. The hall of fame is weird to me because I think, I think they let in too many people every year. And I think the bar lowered and there's some people that got in that probably shouldn't, shouldn't have. And it's tougher for me to figure out what it is, but the one I can't believe is C-Web. And granted, a lot of that's his own fault. And we mentioned him earlier that he's, uh, if you did his career again, uh, Oh, I guess we didn't mention him earlier. I was talking to Wesley Morris about that, actually. Oh, okay.

When you reset somebody's career, just be the better version of it is probably way more likely than how Chris Webber's career turned out. But I think when you throw in the college stuff and how important the Fab Five was, I think the Fab Five should be in the Basketball Hall of Fame,

but they're never going to do that. But I think when you throw in that and the fact that C-Web just had the terrible luck of when he peaked, he's in the same conference and league as KG and Duncan. Sure. And then TMAC and the forwards were loaded. So it was like, oh, he only had one first team All-NBA, but really he could have had three or four with the career he was putting.

Dirk was in there, too, and it was just like an unnaturally loaded thing. To me, he was the best guy on a team that should have won the title. And the best guy on five really memorable Kings teams that were in the mix every year the same way these Rockets teams recently were. So that would be my case. I know he was disappointing as hell. I think too, the problem was that he alienated coaches and sometimes teammates while he was playing. And so that's fair. That's fair debate, I think. I mean, I was doing this story. I think it was on Pop. I think it was something to do

with the Spurs. And I called Nelly. I mean, I just, I make up reasons to call Nelly because he's just so fantastic. And he lives in Hawaii now and he's just great to talk to and such a basketball historian. And he's totally at the point of his life where he's like, he'll just tell you how it is. You know, he's not worried about hurting anybody's feelings or he's not worried about his place in basketball, any of that, you know? And so somehow I was talking to him about Pop, and he said, well, you know, I hired Pop. He only had one job. And I said, what was that? He said, to keep me from killing Chris Webber.

And I said, really? And he said, I wanted to kill that guy every single day. He could have been so great, and he just wouldn't listen to anybody. He thought he knew it all. So Pop would be the guy that would like. And I just thought that was so funny when you, because we always think of Pop as this, the grandmaster and this very elegant above the fray head coach, but he was actually like this, you know, assistant coach to Nelly, like just trying to keep, you know, Nelly from punching Chris Weber in the

mouth or something. I just thought it was such a funny, funny little anecdote. Well, it's why, it's why it's so funny when, that he's announcing games now and being critical when he has to be in certain things. And it was like, you were the most frustrating part of the nineties. Like that's part of your legacy. And honestly, when he says things like, well, you have to, I'm just like, oh man, I was at that game when you did this. Like, I can't hear it. You know, I can't, but he's a lovely guy. I mean, he's a lovely guy to talk with. And I think he's one of those guys, you're right, given the chance to do it over, I think he'd make different choices. Not everybody will say that. Not everybody will. But I bet you, Chris will.

I've spent way too much time thinking about the purpose of a Hall of Fame over the years. That led to me writing my book where I blew up the Hall of Fame and created a different one. I think the purpose of the Hall of Fame is like if I bring my son or my son's son and we go and it's like you try to learn as much about who mattered in basketball and what mattered and the history of the game. It's hard for me to believe Chris Weber wasn't part of that history between the Fab Five and the career he had. He was certainly the most talented power forward I ever saw in my life up until some of the recent guys.

More than Tim Duncan? More than Kevin Garnett? I can't. Offensively, I think offensively, yeah. I think he was the best offensive power forward I think I've ever seen. Okay. So now you've got to add the offensive part. Yeah, I got that.

You're right. Yeah. So I got to call you on that. Uh, I, you know, he's a finalist. He's there. He'll probably get in. So you'll be okay. You can sleep at night very soon. Pierce will make it. Pierce will make it right. I think he'll be unanimous. I think he'll be unanimous. I don't even think there's a question about him. You know, I really don't. And you know, Chris Bososh is on this year and he'll get in too, I think. And I think last year, the reason he probably didn't was very simple because it was Kobe, Garnett, and Duncan. It was special. And I think they wanted to keep it that way. I think they wanted to highlight those three guys and they still haven't been inducted. They're probably

going to get inducted now in May. That still hasn't happened. It's weird, right? And, uh, and so, you know, Bosch will get in and he should get in. I think Bosch should get in. And Michael Cooper was a fun one just because those guys are perennially overlooked. DJ was dead when he got in. I know, I know, man. That was ridiculous. Yeah. And you know, Cooper is funny. I was looking it up after I saw that Cooper was one of the finalists. I looked it up. Michael Cooper never made an all-star game because he played with Kareem and Worthy and Magic. That's the only reason why. Every year. Now, again, I think he probably averaged nine points a game for his career. That wasn't it, right? We know what Bird has said about him. We know that he used to lie in bed at night with his wife, Wanda, the poor woman, and make her watch film of Larry Bird before they went to sleep every night.

You know, he was that kind of lockdown defender. I liked the story, too. I think it was on ESPN.com recently about Kobe's workout. Jerry West called in a retired Michael Cooper to just get in the kid's grill and make it as difficult as possible for him. Even at 40, or however old he was, Cooper was given Kobe all he could handle. So I think he belongs in there too.

I do. He belongs in there for me for a variety of reasons, but a game that I'm sure you were at, Game 4, 87 Finals. Celtics are up six, but cratering because Casey Jones has played everybody just every minute of the game. And they're all hurt too.

Yeah. They're all hurt. Turnover. I think there's like two minutes left and it's a little fast break on the other end and Cooper leaks out to the right and it's right in front of where me and my dad were sitting. Oh, okay. And magic, magic goes down.

Of course he knows Cooper's there, brings people over, swings it to him and the whole crowd, we just knew it was going in. Yeah. And Cooper hits a three. All of a sudden it goes from six points to three points, but he's wide open. I don't know what his stats were career wise, but that dude was a killer. You knew it was going in and the crowd made this noise like, Oh, he was, you know, and then it was their DJ. He was their DJs. You know, DJ would go one for 13 and then with six seconds left, he'd hit a 19 footer with three guys hanging on him. He was unbelievable like that.

Yeah, they're very similar, I think. It's funny. Nowadays, he would have shot 2,000 threes a day. I know. But he would have shot like 34%. He would have been this 3 and D guy. Yeah, he would have been a 3 and D guy making 20 million a year. People would have been like trying to get him.

All right, Jackie. I think we covered everything. And give me one trade prediction before we go. Player in a team. All right. Well, Scal says Harrison Barnes to the Celtics. Let's make it happen. Just to make your day.

Harrison Barnes. But I think you lose Peyton Pritchard on the way back. At least. Maybe. Maybe something. You lose a pick Pritchard on the way back, at least. Maybe. Maybe something. You lose a pick, too, probably. Somebody else in there. I think I'm okay with that.

I think Harrison Barnes is just legit good. Oh, he is. Yeah, he is. And you know what? You already know he's good, as opposed to Pritchard, who I think probably is going to be good. But he's... How tall is he? I don't know.

He's not that tall. And they need to get bigger. They need to get bigger on the wing. They just do. They do. You know, the craziest one I saw was someone talking about Al Horford coming back to the Celtics. Can you believe that? There's just no way that's going to happen. Yeah. I don't see that one at all. No way. For one thing, they're not going to pay him. They didn't want to pay him that money in the first place. Now, why would you want to pay him when he's two years older and less effective? Also, that's not what they need. They need a swing. They have to get a swing or

it's not going to happen. I theorize through Rosillo, I actually think it makes more sense for Sacramento to trade Buddy Heald than Barnes. I would keep Barnes. Really? Yeah, because then I could just play Halliburton more. He is good. Buddy Heald Barnes. Really? Yeah. Cause I, cause then I could just play Halbert more. Yeah, that's true. He is good. You know, Buddy Hill's got value though. I would, I would put my

hand up for Buddy Hill, you know, and I still think JJ Redick could help somebody, but I don't know if they'll trade him now. I guess they're not as sure now that they will. I mean, it, it, from what I'm hearing from GMs, it's like, eh, everybody's sort of like, eh, maybe I'll just hold on to my guys. Cause I'm still hopeful. I'm still hopeful for the second half of the year. I just, I think it's going to be a lot quieter than people, people think. All right. Well, look forward to reading your Jamal Murray article next week. Good to see you as always, Jackie. All right. Thank you, Bill. Have a nice evening.

You too. All right. My old friend, Wesley Morris is here. We used to work together at a place called Grant Lane a long time ago. He's at the New York Times right now. Oscar nominations are Monday and you usually come on right before the Oscars and we try to make sense of the year. And there's usually a framework to it and you have a feeling and you can look at like box office mojo and see what did really well. And you can look at these different lists. My schedule is all off. It's we're in mid March. Usually we're doing this in January. I'm looking at box office mojo right now. Bad boys for life made $206 million. It made four times as much money as any movie ranked 10th and down for 2020. I don't know what that says,

but, um, how do you make sense of this year? I think this is the weirdest Oscars year we've ever had. I don't think that's a controversial opinion. But how does it set in your brain as you think about it? Huh. Well, it makes me feel like, why don't you just throw Bad Boys into the mix for Best Picture 2? Why not?

You know, it's funny because that was the last... It Picture 2. Why not? You know, it's funny because that was the last, it wasn't officially the last movie theater movie, but it was definitely, I think it was the last big hit

before the pandemic was officially declared a pandemic. Actually, Sonic the Hedgehog was the last big hit. Okay, that's right. Just to be fair.

Just to be fair. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I didn't see that in the movie theater though. No. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. I'm just marking myself. Things stop with the way back comes out, right? As the pandemic's hitting and the way back gets screwed

and the way back has also been lost in the Oscar stuff. I thought Affleck would get at least like people kicking the tires on him. No way. But yeah, so from March, we're the year anniversary of the pandemic from the last 12 months. It just goes aside. I think the thing that's really interesting to think about is

what would have... Let's just say nothing changes, right? Let's just say... Okay, let's... How do we tastefully, respectfully speculate about this? Let's say that there, there is no pandemic. Um, you know, there definitely was a pandemic, but saying that it doesn't happen from the standpoint of what you and I are talking about with movies, but every single one of the movies that we're talking about right now is an Oscar...

is Oscar eligible because it fell within the eligibility window of a calendar year. All right, so use Tenet as an example for this. Let's say Tenet makes $240 million. Yep. Does that change how we see it as an Oscar movie? Probably.

I think that the way back, I mean, I think there's some line of demarcation that happens in terms of the way people are thinking about this. Because I think what happened is nothing became real until the studios began to take the Oscar part of the calendar year seriously. And so everything that predates, say,

I mean, what movie would, I'm looking at my list here, what movie would be the movie that says to everybody, okay, I guess the Oscars are really happening. I think it was like Venice, I think Nomadland winning prize, like winning in Venice. If that's a thing that actually happened and not my imagination I think it was that the other international festivals began to have events and like prizes were being given

right people are like wait we had a movie season yeah yeah and I'm this well not only this happened like this is happening and I think that it basically Yeah. This happened? Well, not only this happened, like this is happening. And I think that it basically obliviated any movie that came out before September. I agree with that.

And so what you're left with is all of these things that like, I don't use the term Oscar bait, but this is the year that if you're ever going to use that term and don't like using it, this is the Oscar bait, but this is the year that if you're ever going to use that term and don't like using it, this is the Oscar baitiest year. It's actual bait for Oscars.

But along to that point, I've had a lot of trouble even knowing what an Oscar movie was. In years past, we had this whole infrastructure, right? And there was the tenant side of stuff where it was In, it was inception seven years ago or whatever.

It was always like those big budget movies that were also really well done. Maybe those were the dark night, but then there were those other ones that were, they would come out September, October, November, December, 824, like smaller studios. And you could kind of tell, oh, this is, here we go. This is an Oscars one. When stuff gets released on Amazon or Netflix, I have no way to discern. Like one night in Miami, it was just like, oh, Regina King directed something.

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. I guess this is a thing. But then it's like, oh, this actually would have been an Oscar movie if we had a normal year. And you and I are in this for a living. You're in it way more than I am. But if I can't really tell the difference, that tells me most people

probably can't tell the difference because I'm relatively normal for this. I have one thought about this. And it's not controversial. It is basically Roma. It is the thing that you knew was going to happen actually being forced to happen because of the circumstances.

But this conversation that nobody really wanted to be having about what a movie was, that Amazon was forcing Hollywood to really reconsider, is a real question. It's not Amazon. I'm sorry.

Netflix, right? Roma's a Netflix movie. Is that correct? Yes. I'm pretty sure about that. Roma's Netflix. The thing about Roma was that people were freaked out that this was auguring a thing. Well, I mean, it wasn't auguring.

It seemed to be dooming something that everybody was already worried about. And so Roma happens. It's a Netflix movie that plays in theaters only more or less for Oscar consideration. And that, I mean, I'm not even sure if the first thing is Roma, but it just becomes this wave of things, mostly from Netflix at this point,

where you don't know, you don't know whether that Coen Brothers movie, by the way, for instance, which I liked, that had that really good Zoe Kazan performance. You don't know, what is it, the Ballad of Buster Scruggs. Yeah. And I didn't know what to do about that. There was playing at one theater, I believe, in New York City.

And I didn't know where was it would it be expanding to other theaters at some point i think all of those questions about what a theatrical release was versus something that winds up on a streaming platform i mean i don't know what they're worried about out there now i don't know what the worry is if warner brothers is willing to just release its entire slate for the year on its streaming platform because that's where all of the business model energy

is to get people to subscribe to it. I mean, things are definitely different. I'll give you the worry and then I'll give you the thing that's probably appealing to them. The worry is that there's no way to actually specifically say, here's how this movie did.

So like, look at the way back for instance, right? So the way back comes out of March. Let's say the pandemic's not for another six weeks, right? Let's say the way back makes $120 million and is the number one movie in America for three straight weeks and leads to this whole Ben Affleck.

He's back again. And you get all this push from it and people know what that is. And then when we get to Oscar time, we'd be like, oh, the Ben Affleck, that movie, well, it did pretty well. And you save that. The flip side is all of these streamers can just lie about, first of all, they can lie how the movie did. Second, they can control how the movie did by how they promote it on their platform. So this is my number one fear. One night in Miami, one night in Miami.

And it's just, it's constant. And it felt like a much bigger thing than it would have been if it had just been released in a theater. So they have extraordinary control for better and worse. And if, if for, from their standpoint,

I would argue that in a weird way, that's probably more beneficial to them because what is successful to them? Well, what's successful is people came to our platform and they watched something. Well, what do they watch? They basically watch what we told them to watch. That's why Ginny and Georgia became so successful the last two weeks, right? It's why we had two Fyre Festival documentaries and two different platforms that everybody watched. It's because people go to Netflix, Amazon, whatever. And the top thing that they

see, they're like, what's that? Yep. So that the amount of control they have over kind of telling us what to watch to me completely changes the Oscars conversation. Absolutely. Yes. Except I still think that, I mean, okay, so I've got one major disappointment, which is that I really thought that once you got to September and the Oscars did seem like they were happening, and you're pushing back the release, you know, you're pushing back the eligibility window to whenever it was, February or the end of January, I think. And then, you know, I'm thinking, okay, well, the critics groups are still going to do the work that they do in terms of

handing out awards and, you know, beginning to refrain this conversation, but then the golden globes nominations are going to happen later than that. I thought this is a real taste making free for all. And this will allow anybody filling out a ballot to just go hog wild and just write in any old thing that you liked that you weren't told is the best and the best of the year. You get to actually be honest about what your tastes are. And there might be some surprises in that.

Or what your agenda is. Right. Yeah, sure. Yeah. But that did not... So, okay, for instance, I saw this movie that I really loved over the summer that came out in the

early fall called The 40-Year-Old Version by this woman named Radha Blank. It is... For anybody who's wondering about what to do about their Woody Allen relationship, I would say, let this woman make 10 more movies and that problem will be solved for you. Because are people still wondering what to do about their Woody Allen relationship?

They're out there. Okay. I think I know what to do. I think a lot of us know what to do, but even my mom who Manhattan's her favorite movie. She's like, I'm out. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I think that I thought Rod Ablank would be a shoo-in for any number of these prizes just based on people seeing it on Netflix, which is where it lived, and being like, this is charming, extremely well-made, and this woman is a star. She's a star, and she's a star

in this very specific movie director, movie actor sort of way that does not really exist anymore. And by the time the movies begin to go through the filter, that 40-year-old version is

not one of the things that winds up in anybody's cup. Same thing for The Five Bloods. The Five Bloods. It almost peaked. It peaked. I saw it so long, I don't even,

babes barely remember it. It was a year ago. But that's a pre-September movie, right? Yeah. The Five Bloods is suffering from a number of things, I think, in terms of not being part of this end of the year,

or I don't even, what is the end of the year? In terms of being part of this end of the year, or I don't even know what is the end of the year, in terms of being part of this Academy Awards conversation. Thing number one is it came out, I think it was the first major movie by a great director that the reviews, you know, that had these great reviews. And people really did seem to watch it those first two weekends. Or, you know, those first two weeks.

Because what's a weekend even now, Bill? What's a weekend? And then I think what happened was people, I mean, I think people saw the movie. And it's frustrating. It's got some good parts and some bad parts. You and I are going to talk about this,

but I don't think that the, I don't think the quality, I don't think the quality of the movies really matters for this conversation. Because I think part of this weird year is, and what I was trying to get at earlier, is if nothing had changed about this year and the pandemic just

happened, the pandemic doesn't happen and you have the same movies opening, including Tenet, including The Way Back, but, you know, Tenet doesn't work and The Way Back is fine, but I mean, it's a movie built

to let this actor give a good performance. Yes. Kind of like On the Rocks. On the Rocks is built for Bill Murray to try to win an Oscar. Don't even do that to Ben Affleck. Don't even do that to Ben Affleck. Somebody's trying.

Yeah. Fair. So I think you know, the movies this year are not that good. They just aren't. I look at the things that are like the main, the major candidates for these, you know, five to 10 slots. It's shocking.

And I'm like, what? These movies? Are you kidding me? I, they're, they're very, I mean, I actually think as a class of movies they're a great it'll be a great class of movies to just be able to say that these were your these were your five to ten academy award best picture nominees but not a one of them is is is is a great movie right um and some of them are just embarrassing. We can talk about that in a second.

But I think the Five Bloods, its quality is somewhat separate from the thing that wound up happening to it. Which is, I mean, and I'm just going to say this, I don't think quality really matters in the scheme of what we're talking about with these Oscars.

You know, quality is a completely secondary or maybe tertiary aspect of what we're dealing with here. I mean, people might like some of these movies. I like a couple of them. But we're not really talking about any of these movies being great. They're all important for various reasons.

Well, we're hitting this weird time with art. I think movies are being felt the most with this. What a movie tried to do, what a movie represents, who made the movie, is now being factored in as one of the main ingredients of how people felt about the actual quality of the movie is now being factored in as one of the main ingredients of how people felt about the actual quality of the movie.

Yes. That's been happening for a while. For a couple years, but this year especially. And it's led to this point where I do feel like there's probably people out there who are a little afraid to be critical of movies the way we used to be. Yeah.

If a movie stands for something beyond just here's a two-hour thing, people start tiptoeing and they start walking around on eggshells and they're afraid to be critical because if you're critical, then you're a fucking asshole. When you and I had a conversation earlier,

in the middle of last year, about the trial of Chicago 7. If you had told me that that movie would be in the thick of an awards conversation for anything

other than a Razzie or Six, I seriously would have crapped my pants. I can't believe it. It's like a front runner. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just can't

believe it. I mean, we don't need to relitigate the many things that don't work in that movie. But it strains with the thing that works best in that movie, which is Mark Rylance. And, like, not at all

part of any conversation that Sacha Baron Cohen has, like, won the movie, so to speak. I just can't believe it. As a 42 year old Only Abby Hoffman's 24

In the movie or whatever I hear the Mark Rylance to me was the only Importance of performance that mattered In this movie other than the guy Who played Fred Hampton Oh right Yaya Abdul-Mateen Yeah

He's wonderful too but he's barely, I mean, he's barely in it. He's barely in it. And his scenes, his scenes, I mean, it got me excited for the Fred Hampton movie that I knew was coming,

which is another one. Like, when we talk about these movies that are hit and miss, like Judas and the Black Messiah, unbelievable title. I mean,

really, like one of the best titles to get you fired up to see it. Really interesting story that people have been waiting to see for a long time. I think in a movie, like who was going to do this correctly. And Daniel Kalu is really good in it, but the movie's got a lot of problems and people are talking about it. Like, oh my God, that was amazing. It's like, was it like, like how am I, I, you could do this better than me, but how are we supposed to feel about Lakeith Stanfield's character in that movie What was he Ultimately like This guy is One of the worst characters we've had in a movie

And the movie's ambivalent about A. What they're trying to do with him B. How I'm supposed to feel about him And then C. Ultimately where we're supposed to land with him And then at the end it's like Hey he killed himself after this thing came out So it's like Okay so he felt bad Right Right we're supposed to land with them. And then at the end, it's like, Hey, he killed himself after this thing came out. So it's like,

okay. So he felt bad. Right. Right. Right. Right. Isn't, wasn't the whole point of your movie to teach me, show me that course.

I give your thoughts. Uh, I think a really interesting thing is happening with respect to black storytelling and Black filmmaking at the movies. I think that I have

personal feelings about what's happening, and then I think I have a different set of personal feelings. I think the thing that is happening is great on the one hand because this pent-up energy that has existed in you know among like a wide swath of storytellers is finally being released right you now have all of these directors and screenwriters out there trying to make up for a lost time with respect

to stories that just haven't gotten told. And that's the legacy of this year, right? The amount of diversity in the movies we have is almost unparalleled. Right. So we both agree that that's fantastic. That's part of the thing

that's happening with these Oscars. And I think in this movie year. But I also find it really fascinating that most people's use of that pent-up energy is to tell the story of a great Black American, A, to make a biopic, which is my least favorite genre of movie, period. That's the personal part.

Me too. I do not like these movies as a genre. There are many good ones, but for the most part, you just, they wind up doing more harm than good in terms of what you, the questions that you wind up asking about, is this real or is this not real? Did they make this up or not?

They fabricate this other thing. When we did the Doors Rewatchable, Chuck was joking about that, how they have those scenes where it's like, hey man, it's all out there. Vietnam's right over there. And they have to condense whatever's going on in the world in two minutes to advance the

biopic. I'm with you. They're very frustrating. I enjoy all of them, but they're frustrating. Exasperating. So I find it interesting that a lot of that energy went into the telling of stories of very famous Americans, great Americans in a lot of cases, who don't appear in movies or don't appear as often in movies as any number of other non-Black people. White people. I mean, who are we kidding? But then there's this other current

in which I shouldn't have a problem with this because it solves a biopic problem that I have, which is that you take the Peter Morgan route, which is a great route, which is you're not telling the whole life story of a great person or a famous person. You're telling an incident or a chapter from that person's life that's really interesting. Peter Morgan is the guy who wrote The Queen, Frost Nixon. That's also a documentary strategy too. Don't do the Cradle of the Grave. Cradle of the Grave version, concentrate on like five years.

Right. And it's a very good strategy. My favorite Peter Morgan movie is The Damned United, which I don't know if anybody's seen. It's fucking awesome. It's honestly one of the best sports movies the last 12 years. That is one of my awesome. It's honestly one of the best sports movies in the last 12 years. That is one of my favorite. It's one of my,

it's the best of the Peter Morgan movies in my personal... It's also the best Michael Sheen movie. It's also... Movie, TV show, anything. Yeah. Michael Sheen. He's great in that movie.

I salute you, sir. Anyway, these movies do a version of that. But the problem is, in at least the case of United States vs. Billie Holiday, which is a Lee Daniels movie, that Susan Laurie Parks

wrote. I mean, if you told me that Susan Laurie Parks was going to write a Lee Daniels movie, I would have, after I got picked myself up from passing out, I would have just said, what is it? And can i give you all

my money right now um but the the way that these movies have gone about so anyway the bill the united states versus billy holiday and then um judas and the black messiah and there's another movie one night in miami one in Miami. But okay, so that's a different problem. That movie's problems are different from these two movies. Plus- But it's another one, like we're set in a specific time

with famous characters. Right. But the problem that I have with Billie Holiday and Judas and the Black Messiah is the points of view are all, they're occupied by the FBI, right? Or like, you know, it's not the FBI and Billie Holiday,

it's the drug agency. The Federal Bureau of, it's not investigations, narcotics. It's the Narcotics Bureau. Yeah. The points of view in that movie are totally scrambled. And you spend way too much time

with these boring government people, these G-men. They're not interesting. Like, none of them is interesting. You're going to tell me Billy Holiday's, you're going to give me part of Billy Holiday's life, and you're going to spend me Billy Holiday's... You're going to give me part of Billy Holiday's life and you're going to spend all this time with...

I like... What's his face? Garrett... I almost said Garrett Dillahunt. That's not the same person. Garrett Hedlund, right? My guy. I still own his stock. I love Garrett Hedlund.

He has nothing to do in this movie, but there's so many scenes of him just sitting around trying to orchestrate this plot to get her arrested. Well, it's the same thing with Judas and the Black Messiah. Landry from Friday Night Lights,

who I've always liked. Same thing. It's like, we get it. We get it. He's going to promise some stuff and then he's going to backstab the guy in the end and get what he wants. It's like, this could be done in three minutes. You have seven scenes with this guy. I know exactly where he's going to backstab the guy in the end and get what he wants. Like this could be done in three minutes. I, you have seven scenes with this guy. I know exactly where

it's going to go. But the problem is it really makes me question. I mean, these movies feel to me compromised in that way, in that they couldn't imagine themselves. And I guess it's kind of, I mean, the problem is also a metaphor for what the movies are aching to make clear, which is that, you know, the movie itself can't be free of this, of these surveilling white people because, you know, Billie Holiday and Fred Hampton couldn't be free of them. But the movie isn't really engaging with what it means to have, in Billie Holiday, this black narcotics agent go undercover and become

her lover and also be betraying her at the same time. He's like the one guy who doesn't beat her up, but he then beats her up in this other way. He basically, you know, it's a kind of non-consensual sex in a way. And, you know, in the Fred Hampton movie, you have this character

who has infiltrated the Black Panther circle, but doesn't seem to, he just does a lot of posing. And I mean, physical posing. I mean, he's not even espousing an ideology at all. He is just physically there to take the movie

through the genre film that it ultimately is determined to be. The same with Billie Holiday. These are movies that have at their core these really great ideological questions about, you know, Black power, Black sovereignty, and what would it mean for a guy like Fred Hampton, who was also interested in a kind of class solidarity, understanding what the power structure in this country looked like and what it would take to

actually overcome it. The movie's not interested in that. Also, Fred Hampton was like 22, too. That was... The other thing is like... I don't know. I've always been fascinated by him. I was waiting for the Fred Hampton movie.

I can't believe I'm about to say this, but this is a person who actually needs to have a conventional movie biography made about him. Or like the Miss America treatment, like the FX series where it's seven episodes and we dive in and we really get there with the same way they did in that thing. I don't like a lot of clutter though. I don't like the Avengers approach to any of these historical events. I think the one night in Miami problem that I have is like the Avengers approach to any of these historical events. I think the One Night

in Miami problem that I have is it is an Avengers movie with these great Americans trapped in one place or holed up together in one place for a little bit. But that movie works for me. The script

is not good, but that woman can direct a bunch of actors. Yeah. She can... That is some of the best directed acting I have seen in a movie in a long time.

And what I mean by that is she understands how to block these guys. She understands how to create intimacy among them. And between them, you know, there's a great scene

between Jim Brown and I believe Malcolm X on the bed. And they are sitting so close together. And these two actors are essentially locked into each other

in this one scene. And it's just, it's so electric. You know, the movie, the movie, you almost don't even notice how mediocre the surrounding material is

because the people at its center are so, are so, they're just exciting to watch. It's a way more fun movie than I was prepared for. It was my favorite of the three we just talked about. I thought it was the best one. Oh, it's by far. It was than I was prepared for it was my favorite of the three we just

talked about I thought it was the best one oh it's by far it was the most entertaining it just was the one thing I will say about Billie Holiday and I will say all three of these movies you know Lee Daniels is Lee Daniels if I'm picking

my 30 favorite directors Lee Daniels is definitely one of them this is not a thing he tries if I'm picking my 30 favorite directors, Lee Daniels is definitely one of them. This is not a thing he tries. The thing about Lee Daniels that's great is he does a thing that Regina King does. Regina King outdoes him in her movie, which is like people sitting around and talking. In a way that seems completely authentic.

Yes, yes. And in Regina King's case, it's especially impressive because the things they're saying are basically from a Wikipedia entry, right? Like they're just, they're four competing college papers duking it out in this motel room.

The thing I love about Lee Daniels is the thing that she does better than he does in her movie, which is people sitting around doing nothing, but all the great scenes in United States vs. Billie Holiday are just people sitting around doing nothing. They are just shooting the shit,

and it is a glorious thing to watch. The problem with that movie is that there kind of is a plot, and I don't know. I would love to see Susan Laurie Park's original script is the other thing I will say about that movie. I would love to see what she had in mind for it. I mean, this could be it.

But I don't, I wonder. I wonder. I mean, she's somebody with a strong point of view. I don't know what, I wonder what else about Billie Holiday she would have wanted us to know. But I just feel like, you know, the other thing that I was,

the other movie that, it's not a fiction film. It's the FBI, it's MLK FBI or FBI MLK. That Sam Pollard documentary that also is about the government's relationship to Black people.

And I think the takeaway from this batch of movies is, you know, this country, at the height of the Civil Rights Movement, was terrified of Negroes. And the degree to which it was scared of Black people, you know, because people in Regina King's movie, also under surveillance by the FBI at various points.

There is a real... There is a real... I mean, the scholarship's been done, but I mean, to try to tell the story of the ways in which the government sought to, you know, expose, you know, in some cases assassinate, or to attempt to assassinate, humiliate,

you know, discourage the advancement for civil rights in this country is shocking, right? It's that piece and then also the piece they were so afraid that, you know, somebody would emerge that would be the leader, which is weirdly the theme that ties in a bunch of these movies. Like Ali, Malcolm X, Fred Hampton.

But the problem is though, Bill, the machinery, the mechanics of these movies, at the end of the day, they're all just movies, right? And there's not a lot that's interesting in them as movies. There's not a lot of great... I think Shaka King is a good director. I'm curious to see the next thing that he does. But there's something missing from the heart of all of them.

And that is... But that movie, the Fred Hampton. Yeah. So to me, And that is... But that movie, the Fred Hampton. Yeah. So to me, that movie is Fred Hampton represents something that the government is so afraid of that they're going to try to undermine it

and then eventually say, fuck it, let's just kill him instead. Right? Yeah. Yeah. To me, that's the most important part of the movie.

The Keith Stanfield character is a prop to kind of bring all that stuff in. I don't really care about his journey. I care about what was Fred Hampton tapping into that made them so afraid that they eventually said, fuck it, let's just riddle his apartment with bullets. And I feel like that was the secondary story of the movie.

That was what frustrated me. I felt like they were really more interested in Keith Stanfield's journey. But meanwhile, they weren't even telling us what the journey was. Right. Because we never had that one scene where he's just getting a haircut

and somebody starts talking about a famous traitor. And you just see the look in his eyes. He's like, well, and he starts talking about a famous traitor and right you just see look at his eyes is like well and he starts like defending the traitor we saw him not reconciling this at all except with the weird Landry from Friday Night Light scenes that you could have cut all those out movie would have been fine I

can't believe actually that given some of the license that the movie takes, it just couldn't have those conversations between Jesse Plemons and Lakeith Stanfield be between Daniel Kaluuya and Lakeith Stanfield. Yeah. Right? To have two Black men talk about, you know, to have Fred Hampton kind of quiz,

you know, this, I canpton kind of quiz, uh, you know, this, I can't remember the, the, the, the infiltrator's name. Now I just like left my brain. Yeah.

To have some scene where he's feeling them out and he says something like, look, what we're trying to do right now, there's nothing more important than this. We have to make sure we don't have somebody in our inner circle who could betray us because that would be here. All the reasons that would be blah, blah, blah. Like we don't have anything. I don't know. I just, but this was also a thing. I mean, this is a problem that I had with, with the Chicago

seven movie too, which is that you have all of these great American figures gathered in one place. It's an Avengers movie problem, which is that you have all these people assembled and nobody really gets to do the thing that makes them great, that brought them into that courtroom, right? It's all about the trial. I mean, it's called The Trial of Chicago 7. I mean, I don't know why I'm shocked

to be discovering the movie's about a courtroom case. But I don't, why I'm shocked to be discovering the movie's about a courtroom case. But I don't, the courtroom case is so, I mean, okay, in actual, the actual trial was fascinating. But as movie making,

what you really want to know is who each one of these guys is in more than like a thumbnail way. You kind of just want to spend more time with all of them to see what would have landed each one of these people

in that courtroom together. Well, but it also, the miscasting out of the, now we've mentioned a few movies here, that has the most egregious miscasting. No, I'll take two seconds. Eddie Redmayne's fucking terrible. No, I was going to say, that's what you're going to bring up.

He's terrible. He plays Tom Hayden and he's awful. He's not believable. And I almost think it's good for Sacha Baron Cohen, who's actually pretty compelling, even though he's way too old, but he's basically playing some SNL character playing Abby Hoffman. But at least he's doing something

compared to Eddie Redmayne, who's just in a different movie. It's like we did New Jack City. We were talking on Rewatchables. We were talking about how Judd Nelson's just in a different movie. Every scene, it's like, oh, Judd's over here.

He thinks he's filming Lethal Weapon 3. Eddie Redmayne's in a different movie than everybody else. And it's the biggest flaw other than some other bad flaws. These movies are really scared of politics. And I think that is the thing that connects pretty much

every single one of them. All the movies, every single one of the potential Best Picture nominees is a movie that connects in some way to some large American ideal. Sorry, some large American ideal or

some actual political problem, right? So, I mean, we can just go through them. The five locks seem to be Nomadland,

which is kind of an old school Oscars movie. Yes. Chicago 7, Minari, which was good. Mank,

which all the movie nerds absolutely loved. And Promising Young Woman, which we should talk about in a second. Minari Which was good Mank Which All the All the movie nerds Absolutely loved And Promising Young Woman Which we should talk about In a second And then it goes into

Judas We talked about Ma Rainey's Black Bottom One Night in Miami Sound of Metal Borat Is kind of lurking Yeah

Yeah And The Five Bloods So Of all those movies, I mean, the only one that doesn't really have any obligation to acknowledge any of this is The Sound of Metal, which is my favorite movie of that bunch of movies.

That is hands down my favorite of that bunch of movies. If you've not seen The Sound of Metal, it is fantastic. It is one of the most beautiful movies about a change in a person's life I've not seen the sound of metal it is fantastic it is one of the one of the most beautiful movies about a change in a person's life i've ever seen um riz Ahmed is really good the the the guy who plays the the guy who runs the the camp um where of like the the group home where riz Ahmed winds up you, doing a little bit of rehabilitation. That guy is fantastic. A name is,

I'm not going to get his name right. I think it's Paul Racy. Paul Racy. I think, I think that's right. I think each one of those movies, except for the sound of metal is trying to say something larger about, about this country. And doesn't really want to name it, right?

It doesn't want to say what the problem is. Borat, Borat. That's the only movie that is willing to sort of take this shit on and to actually identify it, to say the names, to get the people that it wants to rope in, in. And so it is a Trump era movie that is not afraid to say the names, to get the people that it wants to rope in, in. And so it is a Trump-era movie that is not afraid to say Donald Trump. It's not afraid to go into

so-called Trump country. It's not afraid to be ugly and gross. I mean, I think I texted this to you at some point. I like that movie and I never want to see it again it is it is a kind of ugliness that just it kind of makes me sick but it also reminds me of the

place where we live and it's not as good as the first movie and yet it is still it is still really it's a really useful document of a particular moment in this country's history that also is larger than the moment itself and it's it's so unafraid to be the thing that it is yeah and that woman Maria Maria

Bakalova is she's an actor. I mean, I think she's an actor, but she's also like, it's one of those things where, I don't know what your experience with this movie was, but I didn't know. I mean, I didn't know who she was, but I also wasn't sure about the nature of

her being in the movie. And then at some point, it's just clear that this woman is doing... She's just making magic out of I don't know what. I actually think she should be nominated. I loved her. I thought it was one of the best

female comedy performances of the last 10 years. Yes. And I'm talking about the Melissa McCarthy and bridesmaids. I wouldn't even gender it. I just period. Yeah. I'm with you.

The fact that she basically walks into an NBA game with LeBron, Sasha Brancone being LeBron. He's like the LeBron of this, right? Nobody is better at in the moment improv, fuck with people comedy. And she's just like, cool. She's better than he is in a lot of ways. I mean, I think there are times when he is

surprised that she's keeping up with him. There are moments where I watched this movie. I did watch it twice. But I don't ever want to watch it after that. Where he is like so clearly I don't ever want to watch it after that. Where he is like so clearly in awe,

but he, you know, he can't, you know, he's also got to stay in character. Yeah. But she's so, she's so willing to go so much farther than maybe he even asks her to go

that he can't believe it. It's awesome. And she should get nominated. I don't, I have no idea. I have no feel with comedies. The Oscars usually ignore them, but because Borat was, as you pointed out, a weirdly important snapshot

of whatever weird year we were in. Yeah. It might actually win some points on that. I don't think that, I still think that there is the classic Oscars respectability question. And this movie is

utterly disreputable. It is disgusting. It is foul. And it is too honest for the Academy, right? I think... I mean, anything... I hope it gets nominated.

I could be totally... There could be enough people in the membership to get it a Best Picture nomination. But I just think, I think that there is a fundamental, I don't want to call all of the rest of the movies that aren't that or sound-o-metal

dishonest, but there is a kind of reluctance to get in there and really say stuff. I think Nomadland is a beautiful movie. It moved me. I think Frances McDormand is wonderful. I think the people around her are great. But what is that movie really about, right? Like, it takes it so easy on us because the thing that you find out about each and every one of these people

that's living this peripatetic lifestyle is that they've all lost somebody. Yeah. Right? Like, there is an incident of personal grief that has sent them to this place. And it's a lifestyle predicated upon loss. And not loss of status, not loss of a job, or a house, or a lifestyle, but a person.

And maybe there was some loss of those other things with that loss of a person. But it's romantic. It's a romantic movie that isn't... I don't think it's afraid to be angry. I just don't know what it... I don't know what else it wants to be about. And I guess there's a way of watching it where it's fine for the movie

just to be the thing that it is. And that's true, except... And Jenna Wortham made this point to me. And I had been thinking about it, but I didn't think about it the way she said it, which is that, you know,

Frances McDermott loses her husband and we find out that he ran this plant back in, you know, their old, you know,

when she was fixing a place for a long time in this town. Um, and he dies. And I don't remember if we, does he,

I don't remember how he dies, but I saw this remember if we... Does he... I don't remember how he dies. But I saw this a long time ago. But it's entirely... It's probably cancer, I think. Like, it's entirely possible that company that he ran or worked for is the reason he's dead.

And the town empties out. And like, the... You know, they romanticize this lost way of life in some ways but it's possible that that way of life is responsible for what she lost and it's just so interesting how simultaneously curious about human beings that movie is, but not about the conditions that change our humanity or that deepen or cause us to disconnect from it. It thinks it's got that one scene

when she goes, I don't want to ruin it for anybody who hasn't seen it. There's a scene where she's among a different set of people who aren't living this nomadic lifestyle. And I think those scenes are meant to explicate. They are definitely meant to explicate some things about the Francis McDermott's

character's life. But I don't know. There's a real void. There's a real kind of spiritual void in that movie for me that I don't think it really... It's based on a book that gets into a lot of these things. To me, it was a great performance movie, not a great movie. But she's a good filmmaker, though, Chloe Zhao. I'm just saying, what endured for me... Yeah, she is

a good filmmaker. You're right. But what endured to me and what I think we'll remember 10 years from now is Frances McDormand, I think, is going to win the Oscar for it. And then the director, this will be, we'll look at that movie and she's going to do five more. And that'll be like the tipping point when it's like,

Oh, she could make any movie she wants. Yeah. But I mean, again, there's another movie that like, I think that movie is a safe. It doesn't,

I don't feel like it's compromised in terms of the way it formally operates. You know what I mean? I think it needs to... It can only... It only can work for the number of people it's working for because it cuts all these corners

and is about this very digestible human suffering as opposed to, you know, something more existential or something more inherently or obviously political. Like the Amazon stuff

isn't really indicting of Amazon. It is, but it's not really enough. It's weird. Benari, even though it's a completely different movie, it reminds me a little of Nomadland in that. I thought Steve Yeun was great. I really like him as an actor,

and I'm always rooting for him anyway. But I just thought he was really good in that movie. And that movie is really well done. It's not trying to say too much. It's laying stuff out and we're kind of have, you know, we have to figure out

whatever we want to figure out from it. I don't think it's a great movie. I thought he was really good in it. I thought it was, I certainly am glad I watched it. I probably wouldn't watch it again. But I guess that brings us back to our point. It's like,

these are movies that are right in the middle of the Oscar race. Yeah, I mean, yeah. It's just weird. Yeah, Minari's a really interesting one, right? Because, you know, you... It's tricky because the thing that makes it... The thing that you love about it or the thing that the people who

like it like about it is like it's smallness it's truth about you know an aspect of the immigrant experience in this country also it's and how old school it is it moves at a pace that is the pace of the movies that were 40 years ago and that's yeah I think, what I kind of liked about it. This is, you're bringing me to my, I mean, it's kind of like the reason, it's kind of my problem with the movie in some ways. It's Sundance 1996. It feels like a very particular old kind of American movie. And Chicago, Child of Chicago 7

was Sundance 1993. All those actors should have been that age in 1993 when they did this movie. Yoon Young Jung plays the grandmother. When she shows up, it just

completely changes the character of that movie. And it becomes stranger and more interesting and the energy changes. She's fantastic. I just feel like there isn't... I mean, it's not that there's not enough going on with this movie.

It doesn't need to have more. But there is something... it is kind of like it's moving around a question about what it means for this family to be you know where it is you know starting this farm and you know leaving that it's similar to nomadland in the sense that like you're talking about a romantic, you're talking about a kind of romance with work and industriousness

and these American values that run up against a different set of values, personal values, or in this case Korean values. And the movie very gently does not press the issue of there. And it doesn't have to, but it lets you off easy a little bit.

I had this new thing where after I watched the movie, I watched the trailer. And there's this weird phenomenon. There's been a couple movies this year. The trailer is better than the movie. And what they're trying to say in the trailer is more interesting than how they actually pulled it off in the movie. And Minari is like that. You watch the Minari trailer is great. And you watch and you're like, oh. And then the actual movie doesn't go much deeper than the trailer did it's

really again as it was really meticulously done and all that stuff but I think that that part usually the movie should be a lot meatier than the trailer from a subject standpoint I think it's sweetness is really working for it right total um I think the fact that nothing truly terrible

happens, you know? It's a gentle movie. Yes, and it's gentle on us. You know, there's a total way for this movie to be kind of angry and bitter. Wait, we gotta cover two quick things. Okay, yes. One is that you still think Manc was the best movie of this calendar year,

whatever, this 12-month cycle, or do you have something else? I don't think, no, I like Mank. I was surprised that I liked Mank as much as I do. I'm not a big David Fincher person. I think that for, I think, again, the thing about Mank that works is David Fincher is like one of the occasions where he's being honest about what he's interested in. And what he's interested in is movies and how they get made. And he doesn't care about people.

He should stop pretending to. And what he's interested in is is the sort of the formal aspect of film making and so if he's gonna be if he's gonna make a movie that i'm gonna believe in some ways in all the ways i need to find a movie believable um it probably has to be about a thing that he that's so that's so evident in his uh that's so evident that he cares about. And this is definitely one of those things. Yeah, it's like Panic Room. He was most interested in how he was going to film everything

in this awesome condo and all the state-of-the-art shit he wanted to do. And it's like, oh, there's going to be some characters in here too. Right. We're not sure why they're here. Yeah, and there is some conversations in the script about the war and what it means to be fighting in it. And the business itself

that kind of gives it a little more depth than a less well-written movie would have. But even that, I think I just liked it because it's such a movie, right? It looks, it looks great. And you're in a world and they clearly built all this stuff.

Or, you know, there's just an, like an attention to detail that, that you admire. It's not my cup of tea, but it's definitely a one-on-one. Right.

It's like, I've never seen a movie quite like that movie. So that was, I think, what he wanted, and that's what he got. But I don't, would you say there's a favorite? Nomadland of those movies. Yeah, Nomadland. I mean, that's the favorite of the bunch. Let's talk about the Chadwick Boseman piece here.

Okay. Which part of it? I thought he was awesome in The Five Bloods. I have no idea if he's even going to get nominated for it. No, probably. I mean, anything could happen. Again, The Five Bloods could really do well because Academy members remember...

And Spike Lee has been resurfaced. The question is, does he get nominated over Del Rey Lindo? I do think the fact that he's not with us anymore would make people more prone for that performance to resonate with them. I thought he was excellent in that movie. And then as a lead actor, I think he has a real chance for Ma Rainey's Black Bottom.

Yeah, I mean, for sure, Chadwick Boseman will be nominated for something, maybe two things. has a real chance for Ma Rainey's Black Bottom. Yeah. I mean, for sure, Chadwick Boseman will be nominated for something, maybe two things. But you talked about him. We talked about him in the pod before. It'll end up, I think, being one of the legacies of these Oscars. And I wouldn't be surprised if he got nominated in both categories because I think we kind of belatedly realized

how important of an actor he was. I think some people knew it all along, but I think now way more people know it and appreciate it. And even what he did in a movie like 21 Bridges, which I really like. That's a movie star. That is my favorite genre of movie star performance.

He's shown a lot of personas there in the different movies that he made, you know, and you go back and you look and he's not Chadwick Boseman in the movie. He's playing a character each time. And I think the two things in this, the two things he did this year,

I don't know. I think, I think he will be one of the themes that I think he should be. Yeah. I mean, I don't think that anybody voting in the acting categories is like... There's not going to be a question

about whether it's Delroy Lindo or Chadwick Boseman from Five Bloods because they would be different categories. I think that the question... Well, the question would be, am I nominating two people from this movie? That probably isn't going to be a best a best movie so they'll pick I think between one of the two

I mean again to be like to speak honestly I think that that would be one of those things that brings us back to where we were when we started this conversation which is about you know what are we recognizing when we started this conversation, which, which is about, you know,

what are we recognizing when we were recognizing this work? Right. I don't think that the five bloods works. I, I love Spike Lee. Um, this is one of those movies that like he has no control over and he doesn't seem to mind that he has no control over it.

Um, no control over and he doesn't seem to mind that he has no control over it um and it goes a lot of different places and he doesn't even he doesn't even seem to really even care about the gold until he cares about it again right i mean it's clearly an homage to treasure of the sierra madre but he doesn't freight it with anything. And I think that, you know... Well, he doesn't know how to edit it either, which is... It weirdly reminds me of the Pete Davidson movie. Oh, the King of Staten Island. There's a really good movie in there.

Yes, yes, yes. And it's just like, eh, fuck it. We're just going to make this two hours and 20 minutes or whatever it is. We're just going to keep all this stuff in. It's a meandering... Both movies are meandering, but have hours and 20 minutes or whatever it is. We're just going to keep all this stuff in. Both movies are meandering, but have things that I really genuinely liked. I thought the last 40

minutes of the Pete Davidson movie, once we get to the fire station, that movie's really good. Steve Buscemi's character is fucking awesome. And Bill Burr comes more to life. It was like, whoa, where was this movie? Because that movie then becomes about something, right? It's about camaraderie.

It's a little bit about class in a way that like... I want to spend my whole movie in the fire station. Yeah, the energy there is really good. I don't know how much of that stuff was even written. You know what I mean? A lot of it seems to be on the spot. The Five Bloods problem for me is... You know, there are a lot of movies in there.

Right. Well, yes. And, you know, I think I just didn't believe any of it. Right. Like, I didn't believe, I believe the relationships among those men. And, you know, those five, those four guys, I love watching them. I think that... But I did not believe the Delroy Lindo character.

I just didn't... I felt like, again, that is a movie that was afraid to make that guy everything. I mean, he had to... Delroy Lindo has to do all...

hit all the beats and do all the things that character is asked to do. You know, the ugly stuff he's asked to do and say. But I think Delroy Lindo has to hit all the beats and do all the things that character is asked to do, you know, the ugly stuff he's asked to do and say. But I think Delroy Lindo is playing post-traumatic stress, and that is only a little bit in the script, right? He found a very playable thing in this guy that's got too much going on

and the stuff that's going on with him are at odds with each other other as far as I'm concerned and he he's supposed to be well it's unclear what he's supposed to be but it's just too much happening and that performance can't reconcile at all and you know

he's one of our he's one of our very good actors and this part just to me got the better of him I thought people are going to think I'm kidding. I really thought Affleck in the way back was, was one of the most affecting the scene when he breaks down at the end. It was like one of the most affecting movie moments of the year. And I just think Affleck brings so much baggage now. People aren't even going to consider that movie, but I it's been on HBO a lot.

I keep getting sucked into it because I like the basketball scenes. I thought that movie was really good. And just as terms of sports movies go, some of the tweaks that they did to the sports movie model, especially it's been out a year. I don't care about spoiling it,

but having the big game, but still having 25 minutes to go and all of a sudden... I did not see that coming. I've just never seen that in a sports movie before. I'm like, wait, what? Yeah, wait, wait. So we're doing a state championship next? It's like, no, that's the last

basketball scene we're going to see. I thought it did some stuff, but I thought it tapped into something with him and our history with him and this 25 years of Ben Affleck being in our life and all the fucking demons that dude has. And they figured out a way to make a movie character that became the proxy for all that shit. I thought it was really interesting, but I also realized I like Ben Affleck more than most. I mean, I don't know how on the record I am about loving Ben Affleck, but I do

really like him a lot. And he's very good. This is one of those years where there's so many good performances that aren't going to get Oscar nominations. I mean, it happens every year. But you would think, well, this will be the year where some of these people are just going to

get in there, right? That performance seems like one of those things. I hope that Riz Ahmed and The Sound of Metal is one of these people who actually gets into the last five people. I feel like... I think that Viola Davis in Ma Rainey's Black Bottom, that is, nobody's talking about it

as one of the great pieces of acting that I've seen or that they've seen in a long time. But I think that wherever she is in that movie, I mean, clearly she's gotten out of it. I saw her pictures of thanking Beyonce for those clothes that Beyonce sent her and her daughter. So she's gotten out of it. I saw her pictures of, you know, like thanking Beyonce for those clothes that Beyonce sent her and her daughter. So she's back to normal.

But wherever she went to find Ma Rainey, I mean, I compared it, you know, when I was watching it, I was like, this is Daniel Day-Lewis in There Will Be Blood without the Paul Thomas Anderson movie to go with it. And if somebody wants to let Viola Davis... This is kind of why I like Widows so much. I think Widows is an underrated movie.

And part of it is that Viola Davis will go any place you need her to go. I'm going to throw another movie at you. You're going to laugh. Okay. Black Cat. Michael Vann. Not a great movie. No.

The Helmser brothers in doing a Brooklyn accent when he's from Australia. My friend Eric Hines, though, really loves that movie. So it's Chris Ryan and I like it. It might end up we might be the only two. But she's in it and she's playing like this brash government person who's... And it's just

like, this is cool. This is like one of our best actresses. Why is she in this movie? But every scene she's in, she's like fucking Meryl Streep compared to everybody else in the movie. And it's kind of hilarious to watch. She's so much better than everybody else.

She's always like that in every movie she's in. She's always the best person in the scene. Morgan Freeman, there are some actors where well, Morgan Freeman is sort of Morgan Freeman was always the most interesting person in any movie he was in. It's true.

And then he became the voice of God and America's president. And it kind of made you forget how great he can be. We have now turned him into a hood ornament or an elder statesman. But Viola Davis is not in that position at this moment. She is still... Were it not for the opportunities

that she probably was denied in terms of parts she got cast in, she definitely... She would be the person who comes to mind as readily as people like Daniel Day-Lewis and Meryl Streep do when we talk about what great movie acting is. It's a rough IMDb for her because she's been good for almost 20 years.

And she's, you know, like in 2007, she was in a TV series called Traveler. Oh, yeah. She played Agent Gianmarlo. I don't even know what that is. 2008, she was in the Andromeda Strange. She played Dr. Charlene Barton. And then in Law & Order,

she was in there on and off all the way through. She was in Medea Goes to Jail. Oh, I remember that. She was in Law Abiding Citizen. Yeah. She's just bouncing around. And for some reason, it wasn't until what? 2000?

I don't even know. Somewhere in 2013, 15 range. I think that she had that really great year where she made Far From Heaven, Antoine Fisher, Steven Soderbergh, Solaris. You're going way back. Yeah, that's 2002.

Yeah, she kept showing up in things and was, again, like the most captivating, not even the most captivating, what she does in Antoine Fisher. That is one of the, I don't know if you remember this, she has one scene at the end,

like just like she dunked in doubt, you know, her heat check, like she had this great moment at the end of Antoine Fisher. And, you know, I've heard Denzel talk about it, but I'll never get tired of people singing the praises of that performance

where she just comes out and it's like an ugly, nasty, black mother portrait. But she puts as much humanity and awfulness into it. I mean, Viola Davis. She's a good candidate for IMDB reset game. We just get to redo your career. It's like

with certain NBA players. Hey, Chris Weber, we're just going to redo this. We just feel like there's a better outcome. Yeah. I mean, that's a great comparison. And she is the perfect person to have that happen for her. She's the only person... I mean, there are lots of people I feel this way about, but she is the perfect person to have that happen for her. She's the only person... I mean, there are lots of people I feel

this way about, but she's the only one where the talent is just... What could anybody have been thinking except you know what they were thinking? She's a dark-skinned woman. Well, they didn't have parts for her. But they didn't have parts for her is

unacceptable to me because the parts were there. I mean, the way they were thinking until basically four years ago. That's why it's so fun to see her in Black Cat. Even that was kind of, whoa, Viola Davis is in Black Cat? Playing the

role that normally Kelly McGillis would be playing? But the thing about this is if you're Viola Davis, if Michael Mann wants you to read You're doing it. You're just going to do it. You're just going to do it. this is like if you're Viola Davis, if Michael Mann wants you to read... You're doing it. You're just going to do it. You're just going to do it. Unfortunately for her this year, I think

Frances McDormand's going to win. Sometimes we have years where the best actress, the person who wins, it would have been like the fourth or fifth best performance in another year. Sometimes there's just not good parts. This year was a good year for women. Sometimes there's just not good parts. Yeah.

This year was a good year for women. Yeah. This year is pretty strong. But I do think Frances McDormand will end up winning. I don't know, Bill. If Audra Day is one of the nominees, it's over. I mean, if she gets nominated, it means people saw the movie.

And if she gets nominated and people saw the movie, it means that enough people might have seen the movie for her to win. Do you wish we had shows like The Jump for movies where it's like, Frances McDormand might win her third best actress. What does that mean for her legacy against Meryl Streep? That's coming up next.

We could do that right now. We could do that right now. We could do it right now. But I do think that, I think Audra Day could win. I do. I think that, you know, she plays Billie Holiday

for anybody who doesn't know in the Lee Daniels movie. But I don't, I don't see it. I think you're wrong on that one. I could be wrong, but if she gets nominated, look out.

Look out. People love Viola. If it's, if it starts between that and Viola, be wrong, but if she gets nominated, look out, look out. I don't think it's, if it's, if it starts between that and Viola, if we're not giving it to Francis McDormand, I think people gravitate to Viola. Uh, yeah,

but I also think, you know, I don't really believe, you know, there are people who don't believe momentum. Are you, you're not momentum or you are momentum? You're,

I don't know how you have, I don't know how you have momentum this year when we've had no movie season. Well, that's why we need to jump for movies. The equivalent of momentum for me is I don't believe in things canceling out like voters, like, like people splitting votes or whatever,

but there is a possibility that if you've got like two people who've got three Oscars between them, that you want to give it to a person who doesn't have one. Um, so there is that. Like Eddie Redmayne that year. Now he's ruining Chicago 7. But I don't know.

I don't know what happens. I mean, Carey Mulligan, anything could happen. Carey Mulligan is probably going to get nominated. let's talk about that and then we'll go. That was the most interesting movie I saw this year. Sure.

We can start there. I think the most interesting out there performance we had in a mainstream movie, I'm surprised that it's become a shortlist best movie. I was glad I saw it. I thought it was really, really interesting, but I didn't expect the ceiling to be as high as we had toward Oscars time. Yeah. I mean, again, this is another movie that really doesn't entirely work. But it's got

some nerve. I don't mean like you've got some nerve. I mean, it's got a little bit of nerve. And it's got... But it's got a problem for me, which is that I don't understand... I don't understand what she's going for, right? I thought a lot about Rosamund Pike in Gone Girl watching Carey Mulligan in Promising Young Woman. total control over every aspect of what she knew she had to do to keep the movie interesting

and to create a character that while not at all human was also like extremely compelling for her lack of of of humanity right um carrie mulligan seems to be going for the opposite effect, which is she wants to try to play a person who has become disconnected from her humanity. And the thing that I keep noticing in the movie, and this is a crazy thing to say, Bill, but the men are fascinating in this movie to me.

And I don't think that the performances of the men are fascinating in this movie to me. And I don't think that the performances of the men are fascinating, but I think that the machine-like nature of that character, the Carey Mulligan character, kind of the thing that makes you cringe, obviously, is the men being caught, right? The men being called out

for what they're about to do to her. And I really found it much more interesting when looked at from the point of view of these shitty men. And I don't necessarily know that that makes the movie a success.

So that was my biggest issue. I thought they went the self-parody route with all the guys in it. Even the Bo Burnham character, the boyfriend, who is like this doctor. But all of it was, to me, that scene especially. All right, we're going to end the podcast here. So if you haven't seen the movie, just jump off now because I'm going to do a major spoiler. She's going to this bachelor party.

And the bachelor party is like an SNL sketch. It's like a parody of a parody of a bachelor party. And it's like, that scene is so much more harrowing to me if it's, you know, a bachelor party where it seems authentic and it's

like these seven guys trying to get away for their wives for the weekend who are like, cool. This lady showed up and I feel like she's in danger from the get-go. You don't feel like she's in danger because they're basically making fun of the concept of a bachelor party, which leads me to my biggest question with the movie. Is this a parody movie or am I supposed to be scared? Is this a thriller? Is this a black comedy?

Yeah. I look at a movie like To Die For and that movie knows what it is the entire time. It's like, this is a black comedy? Yeah. I look at a movie like to die for, and that movie knows what it is the entire time. It's like, this is a black comedy. We're going to go to some places, but we know what we're doing this movie. It's like, is this a black comedy? Is this ultimately a drama? Am I supposed to, am I supposed to not laugh at this part? It's just trying to fuck with you in ways that I don't know if it worked all the time. i like the nerve of the of the being messed with i just feel like the end of that movie the the last sequence in that movie is is it's deranged in so many ways and a proof of i mean nobody's talking about promising a woman as a white movie, but it is an amazingly, it is a movie about whiteness in so many ways.

But, you know, again, can't quite name it because, you know, there's a kind of white filmmaking. But the villain at the end is basically like one of the guys in Trading Pl when that Dan Aykroyd was friends with that, the country club with Muffy. And you know, it's like, what is this? This is like a joke from 40 years ago. It's the sirens bill.

It's the sirens that do it. It's the, it's the belief. It's the, it's the belief in a particular kind of like there's discomfort on the one hand, but then there's a belief in, in justice in injustice in in this

other way yeah um that i just after watching a movie basically about like like injustice right like a movie that you're supposed to believe is about justice that was never served this person is willing to do the thing that she does willing to hang all of her stuff on the belief that it's finally going to get served in this, in this very symbolic way. In this usual suspectsy kind of. And yes, yes. But,

but with the sound that you hear at the very, the, the sounds you hear at the end of the movie are tell, supposed to signify to you that, Oh, it's a wrap. She was right. The most interesting thing to me about that movie was

Carey Mulligan and just thinking like the arc of her career and just I thought I didn't know she had that performance in here. So as I was watching I was like, oh, okay. You should see her in the Paul Dano movie

that I'm not going to remember the name of, which is really unfortunate. Paul Dano directed a really good movie that's got a great performance by her in it that I'm just totally blanked on the name of it. But it's her and Bill Camp.

And it's based on a book or a short story that I can't, I'm just totally blanked on it, but she's fantastic in that. And, um, again, another good movie directed by an actor that,

um, understands how to direct actors. All right. So Oscar nominations are Monday. You can hear Wesley on still processing as well as the rewatchables that we're doing in April that I'm just dragging you into. I'm not even asking you. I'm just going to tell you time and date and movie.

I'll see you then. Enjoy the Oscars. Say hi to Jennifer for us. I'm going to try. And it's good to see you as always. All right, that's it for the podcast. We will see you on Sunday.