The Bill Simmons Podcast - NBA Draft Lottery Reaction With Mark Titus (Ep. 214)

Episode Date: May 17, 2017

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Mark Titus to break down last night's draft lottery (02:00), if Markelle Fultz is definitely going to be a Celtic (11:30), what Lonzo Ball's draft declaration says about him (15:00), players who could be the second pick (28:00), and Malik Monk's stock (31:00). Then Titus shares stories about growing up with Gordon Hayward (36:00) and playing on the first team that Brad Stevens ever coached (38:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast brought to you, as always, by SeatGeek. That's our presenting sponsor since the mid-80s, the last time the Celtics finished in the top two in the lottery. Find the best tickets for round three NBA, round three NHL, MLB, Hamilton, the Opera, whatever. I have SeatGeek on my phone, and it's by far the easiest way to shop for the best tickets thanks to their revolutionary grading system. Buy and sell tickets in just two taps on your phone two taps everything fully guaranteed try it out download the SeatGeek

app or go right to SeatGeek.com we are also brought to you by Larry Wilmore's new podcast Black on the Air subscribe now you can also subscribe to Cousin Sal's new podcast Against All Odds with Cousin Sally it's Jimmy Kimmel coming on this week and Cousin Sal's new podcast, Against All Odds with Cousin Sally. It's Jimmy Kimmel coming on this week. And Cousin Sal and I actually, we bet on the Lakers to finish with a top three pick yesterday because we just thought, you know what? There's no way the Lakers aren't getting into the top three. And there's no way they're losing their pick. So who knows?

We're going to talk about that lottery with Mark Titus from The Ringer coming up right now. On the phone right now, The Ringer's college basketball expert. We have a lot of college basketball experts, but this is that of everyone we have. Not only does he write columns about college basketball, but he is a big believer in the integrity of college basketball as its own experience, and not just as a feeder system to the NBA. So you must be conflicted. I believe in the amateur model, for sure.

Well, yeah, I know you're conflicted on lottery night, because people are just being discussed that you watched for either one year or multiple years just as projections. And I'll put this guy here and put this guy there. But you wrote a piece that I really liked at the beginning of March about Markel Fultz, who it looks like he's going to be the number one pick for my beloved Celtics. And your point was stop talking about this guy like he's this number one draft

prospect. Enjoy the fact that he's just good at basketball right now. What do you love about Fultz? Well, yeah, like Fultz well yeah like he Fultz fell victim to the Ben Simmons thing where like everyone was on the Ben Simmons bandwagon and then as it turned out his team was terrible and his coach was terrible and as the season progressed college basketball fans were like stop shoving this down our throats we don't care about what he's going to do at the next level and all that kind of stuff. And then Fultz was not Simmons. Fultz was very, like, Simmons was very clearly just there

because he had to be, and Fultz actually kind of wanted to be there. But it made it worse that Fultz was on, like, Fultz lost 13 straight games at the end of the season, which is, you know, not a good sign, and I'm sure people are going to make more of that than what they should. But he, like, wanted to be there. He was trying to win. His team was just, just like obviously absolutely awful um so i i like i forget when i wrote that i think

it was march yeah like towards the end of the season i thought like why am i not hearing more about marco folds how can someone like me who watches college basketball more than anybody i know how have i not heard his name this year when he's putting up just absolutely insane numbers so I started watching a few games trying to actually understand what's going on and um I don't know I I love that he like he does something different every game like he he's not a scorer he's not a rebounder he's not an assist guy he he had games where he shot like 10 threes in one game he had games where he shot one uh he had games where he had one rebound and 10 rebounds like he does he does a little bit of everything um that i'm not really sure to compare him to like i see james harden as a comparison but james harden's left-handed and i'm a big believer in the uh you can't do

cross-hand comparisons you can't do a lefty to a righty that just doesn't work so but that's like that's probably the closest thing i'd say um but yeah i would caution, like if you're trying to be smarter than everyone else in your circle of friends and, uh, have the hot take and you, you say that, um, his team's sucking and his proof that he's not good. That's, that's a bad take to have. That's wrong. That's very wrong. Yeah. So a couple of things with him. One was, it seemed like his knee was bothering him a little bit. Yeah. And he ended up actually missing a few games near the end of the season.

But his team was so bad and his coach was so bad that at the end of the year, even though they had the number one recruit in high school coming to Washington, having already committed to that coach, they fired the coach anyway. They were just like, you know what? We don't care where this number one recruit goes. We have to get rid of this coach. I guess, like, because this is a perpetual thing for washington is they always had like the next recruit coming and then like the washington just finally gave up i mean isaiah thomas is proof of

that too like the same code lorenzo romar had isaiah thomas on his team and they never did anything notable so this is just a perpetual thing for him yeah I was obviously rooting for the number one pick for my team just because why not but I really think out of all the guys that were in this draft for the specific team that the Celtics have this is the greatest possible

guard prospect that could have dropped to them but you're Alonzo guy right now that the Lakers are going to take him or you're a Lonzo guy, right? Now that the Lakers are going to take him, you're not a Lonzo guy? No, no, no. I'm still a big Lonzo believer. But Fultz is at another level. And everyone

I've talked to who knows anything about this stuff, and even some of the people that work for the different teams, there's just a higher ceiling for him. Especially when you look at a team like the Celtics where you're going to have to draft somebody. You have a team that's one of the best four teams in the league

that has a roster that's already established for next season. And ideally you want somebody, your number one goal with having the number one pick is to have somebody who's going to be a superstar someday, which he qualifies for that. Your number two goal, if you're them, is to take somebody that can fit in with what you have now and make you better and maybe give you a better chance to win the title over the next two years. That's him. Because, as you said, he can do everything. He's malleable.

He can be one day he could just be the spot-up shooter for threes. Another day he can run the offense. He can run the pick and roll. He's a good defender. He can play both spots. He can play with Isaiah, which I think, if they took Darren Fox, Darren Fox weighs, what,

160 pounds? I don't think you could play him with Isaiah Thomas. But you could play Fultz with Isaiah Thomas. And I think that's why, I don't think the could play him with Isaiah Thomas, but you could play Fultz with Isaiah Thomas. I think that's why I don't think the Celts are trading down. I think you can't rule out anything with Ainge, but it just seems like this specific guy is so perfect for them.

You just see him fitting in and getting the Rozier minutes, playing three guards with him and Bradley and Isaiah. I can just see it. I can see him playing 25 minutes a game next year for them. I think it's interesting how people talk about these guys that are going to go in the lottery are certainly the top five guys and whether they can make an immediate impact. And it's always framed like an immediate impact means

stepping in on day one and just putting up double-doubles and just dunking on people and all that kind of stuff. And Fultz is a guy, like you said, he's going to make an immediate impact. It's just that it's not going to be – it might not be like what LeBron did when his first game in Sacramento. I remember that when he just went off and you're like, okay, this guy is a real deal. This is amazing.

This is awesome. It doesn't have to be that. Fultz can go to a great team, like you said, just kind of maybe plays off the ball a little bit maybe he does have the ball in his hands I don't really know but Stevens will figure out something with him and and he will he will still have an impact it just might not be what like people who want instant gratification and want this guy to be like a an all-star in his first year they might be a little disappointed but otherwise you know he's he's gonna be he's

gonna be fine well worst case scenario you know let's say he played rogier's minute and maybe grabbed a couple minutes from smart three guards stuff like that he you know he can spread the floor because he can shoot you know he's a very very very good athlete you know you can run pick and rolls with them right away and he's just gonna fit in and and i don't think he's like one of those. I was thinking in my head, comparing it to other guards that have come in, like that were top three picks, top five picks, whatever.

Like, let's say they, let's say they're drafting Derrick Rose the year Derrick Rose came out of Memphis. That's somebody they'd really have trouble fitting in. Right. Cause it's like that Derrick Rose is like, I need the ball. Get out of my way. I'm used to having the ball all the time.

You'd have a lot of trouble playing him with the team they have. And if you go down the line like D'Angelo Russell, you know, you go down the line, it's pretty rare to find a guard who can just kind of be like, hey, cool, man. Where do you want me to play? All right. Yeah, I'll play here. Cool.

All right. I'll stand over here. And that's what he can do and i also think like to put up 23 six and six or whatever he did in 40 minute games in college is just there's that that shows a consistency that i think you need when you when you get to the pro so i'm on board what i mean that cuts that cuts both ways with like the stat thing because i see a lot of people say the only reason he put up huge stats is because he was the only guy on his team and he had to do everything and all that.

The flip side of that is you go into every Washington game, you can pretty much throw five guys on folds and still win the game and just say, I'm daring these other guys to beat us. He knew that going into every game. I don't know. The one thing that jumps out to me about him and and why I think I loved him so much is just the way he changes pace he's got that so figured out and he's so smart about that and and when you watch as much college basketball as I do

you see so many young guys who are quick or more athletic and they think they just got to go 100 miles an hour at all times and that's their advantage is like I'm just faster than everybody and Fultz can change the pace he's got like hesitation moves and little spin moves and it looks kind of sloppy at first and unorthodox and then you start to understand what he's doing and you're like this guy is ahead of his years you know like he's he's smarter than than i think most people would realize so and he also not to turn this into a giant false orgasm podcast but he also yeah he's he's fucking great at making 19 footers you know and i and i think as you watch basketball of off and everybody's just trying to shoot threes or get to the line and everybody's playing

high screens with four guys spotted around, that shot is open now. And you saw it happen in the Houston series. San Antonio was just like, we're giving you the shot. And when you have, you know, I think that's why Avery Bradley's been so valuable for the Celtics, because that shot's open when you play the Celtics. And Avery Bradley just takes it and makes it. So I think Fultz is going to be spectacular because he just is the type of guard that you need

with how everyone plays basketball now. I still wonder, just because Danny Ainge will trade anyone at any time, has no loyalty to anything, doesn't care what people think, I still wonder if it makes sense for Philly to try to move up to one. I was going to ask you, is this a done deal that Boston is taking, Fultz? Or are we just looking too far ahead here? I know that they've really, really liked him offseason. But I also know that they're going to turn it into whatever the best asset it can be.

So, if I don't know, if Philly goes to them and says, we'll give you number three, and we'll also give you this, this, this, and this to flip spots with us, this is a great draft. I'm pretty sure the Celtics could talk themselves into Josh Jackson at number three.

So, you know, I'm not willing to rule anything out. The one thing I wouldn't do if I was them, because I got this question a lot yesterday, was would you flip the pick for Jimmy Butler or Paul George? I just wouldn't do it because you're paying those guys like $20 million a year, maybe even more. Whereas, like, false. To have somebody who's this good under contract for like $4 million a year, maybe even more. Whereas like false to have somebody who's this good under contract for like 4 million a year, you know, I think that's the best asset you can have.

If you have a guaranteed guy who can give you production and you're not paying him anything, I'd much rather have that. And you know, I don't do would Paul George really make the difference for them short term in the next two years with LeBron playing this way? I don't think he would. Yeah. So that's why I keep, so let's talk about Lonzo.

All right. I, uh, uh, you know, I was on the bandwagon all year. I did not like the, I did not like the tournament game against Fox.

I thought, I don't know what the hell happened to him in that game. It's one thing to have a bad game. It's one thing to just say, oh, man, he just didn't have it tonight. He was scared to bring the ball up against Fox. Explain that to me. So this is going to sound like a retroactive, of course you said that. It's convenient that you can say this now that you watched him kind of lay an egg in the tournament but all season long my my complaint

or my fear i'm not really sure what the right word is um with with lonzo was that he never really had adversity he never really had it was never really hard for him and i guess that's like a good thing like he's so good that he never has to worry about having a bad game or whatever. But I was worried that what happens when things are going south, when everything's going to hell and all that kind of stuff? How does he respond? Because he just seems so casual about it all. He's just out there just kind of doing his thing, whatever.

Oh, we're losing late in the game. I'm just going to hit a step back three and it'll go in and it'll be fine. I got this under control. But from the start of that Kentucky game, he did not have it under control. And that was like kind of a game I was hoping he would say, okay, we don't have it. I'm kind of not on my game tonight. Our team's not on our game tonight,

but I'm still going to dig deep and find a way to maybe not win, but just like kind of have that competitive spirit. And yeah, that was really disappointing. I don't want to read too much into it. I already sound like I'm 80 years old because I like college basketball so much, so I'm trying not to like, these kids don't play hard enough and do all that kind of stuff. But at the same time, I mean, it is sort of concerning.

That was a matchup against De'Aaron Fox. Everyone was watching. It wasn't just an individual thing either. Like NBA fans were into the individual thing, but college fans knew that those were two of the best teams in the country, and that was a huge, huge game. And, you know, just to see him lay an egg was disappointing. I don't know.

Yeah, and it went just beyond laying an egg. It was somebody that had played better than him the last time they played. Somebody who played in the same position. Somebody who was a potential top five lottery pick, and somebody who clearly was going to go into that game saying, I think I'm better than Lonzo Ball. I'm going to show it tonight.

That's why I was so surprised that Lonzo didn't play well, because it's like going into a UFC main event. You're climbing into the octagon with Fox. And you know it's coming. You know he's going to be relentless. You know he's going to track you the whole way up the court. You know he's going to try to push the ball every time on you.

And Lonzo just seemed completely unprepared. And that's what worried me about that game. And if you're someone who loves to make too much of the stuff, Lonzo declaring for the draft as soon as the horn sounded was not a good look. And especially when two nights later when De'Aaron Fox, they lost to North Carolina, he was bawling his eyes out in the locker room and talking about how badly he wanted to go to the Final Four.

I love both of those guys. I love how hard Fox was somebody that the first few times I watched him, I remember I was emailing you. I was like, why the hell don't they turn the ball over to Monk? Why are they so enamored with this Fox? He can't shoot. And then the more I watched him, I was like, holy shit, I'm dead wrong. This guy

is like a gamer. Yeah, he's just such a good athlete. The knock on him is good. He's going gonna get knocked for two things that his shots a little ugly and maybe isn't totally reliable which is 100% fixable and that he's too skinny I mean he's probably

what 155 160 pounds but people will say what happens at the next level when he's going against these monsters like Westbrook and people like that I just think that guy's a scrapper, and he's a phenomenal, phenomenal athlete. Phenomenal. Which is what you need to see.

Yeah, he reminds me of, I would say, since we're doing comparisons, we're always hot this time of year, Mike Conley, John Wall, little mix between the two. John Wall was the big thing because he played at kentucky and he was fast and and all that kind of stuff and pushes the tempo and and just like an unbelievable athlete but he reminds me of conley a little bit too i talked to mike about him like mike mike loves him just kind of how he's he mike mike conley didn't have a jump shot heading into the nba um i talked to mike about that too where

he's just like he's like yeah everyone doubted my jump shot heading into the NBA. I talked to Mike about that, too, where he's just like, yeah, everyone doubted my jump shot. Now Mike doesn't miss. He's actually a good three-point shooter. Yeah, that's something that's fixable. I don't know. I would honestly consider Fox a three. I think Fox is – I would consider Fox a two.

Hell, I don't know. As far as the competitive spirit and all that kind of stuff, like I, that stuff matters to me still. Um, I still care that he was crying when he lost and, and, um,

maybe, maybe that's the Adam Morrison fan in me that I, that I like guys who cry when they lose, but, but, uh, yeah, like he's,

he's got all the tools. He just can't shoot, but you know, like he'll, he'll fix that. You're preaching to the choir and that stuff and the more the older i get and the more i try to figure out who's going to be good and who's not going to be good i really do think like that extra level of passion and emotion and

competitiveness really does matter and there's some rare exceptions right like harden at arizona state the big knock on him was he doesn't care. He doesn't have enough passion. He disappears too easily. Things like that. And he, his career went like that for a couple years and then I think OKC trading him was probably the greatest thing that ever could have happened to him.

Because on OKC he just could float in and out of the games depending on whether they needed him or not. Then OKC said we're trading him. We don't think you're a max guy. Game 6 doesn't really do much to disprove that.

Well, there you go. I don't know if Fox and I feel the same way about Monk and that's why my dream scenario potentially is Sacramento's got five and ten. I just keep thinking it would be so much fun for Fox and Monk to be in the same team because those guys clearly loved each other. Like, you could see it in that video.

And it's like, man, if you had Fox and Monk and Buddy Heald, I don't know. That would actually be a fun team. I would want to watch that team. But back to Lonzo. I'm not sold the Lakers are taking him at two. I'm just not. Really? I don't know.

I think there's some red flags. I think the way his season ended ended as you said just declaring immediately after like how did it you're on his team how do you feel about that he's right kentucky on a friday night in front of everybody he thought you're gonna win the title the game's over for three minutes and lonzo's like hey i'm going pro all right guys see you later i don't know i didn't i didn't sit right with me it's hard it's hard to distance him from his dad too um because if you've if you like followed lonzo all year i i honest to god i only think i know what lonzo ball's voice sounds like i don't think i've ever heard an interview

do an interview i don't know i don't know his opinion on anything you just hear his dad all the time and then you kind of you kind of put his dad you kind of lump them together as though they're the same person and whatever flaws his dad has, you, you, you know, you project onto Lonzo and all that kind of stuff. So that's,

that to me is like, um, interesting as well. Cause some of the negative stuff I've, I wonder, is it like, am I reading too much into what LaVar is saying? Like,

is this, do I not like Lonzo? Cause his dad's an idiot. Or do I not like Lonzo? Cause he's got a funky looking jump shot and he never really had like an intense drive on the court? He just kind of went through the motions and all that kind of stuff. Well, we've seen this happen before.

When it comes to easy to guys during the formative years of their career, sometimes they kind of settle into that. And I think, you know, you were close friends with Greg Oden. I think that was one of his, obviously his body breaking down was the number one issue with him but he uh the game came so easy to him for so long that he didn't he didn't have that that fox kind of yeah that i oh i have to prove it i have to prove it every night gene because he never needed to have it and that's what he, in the national title game, which was the best game he ever played at Ohio State,

that was the first time where I was like, wow, the Odin's playing like his life depends on this game. If he plays like this, he has to be the number one pick. But I wonder about that with Lonzo where, you know, it comes easy to him. He's got a huge bullseye on his back. People are going to be rooting against him because of his dad. He's the type of guy that if he's on the wrong team, it could actually go wrong.

Oh, yeah. I think he's got to be on – explain that part of it, how he has to be on like a sophisticated IQ team almost. Well, part of what made him so intoxicating, and that would be the best word to describe him to college basketball fans because when you watch so much college basketball and it's uh up 35 second shot clock for so long they just switch it to 30 but it's still like plotting walk the ball up the floor kind of physical boring to to nba fans kind of stuff

and then you get a team like ucla last year who just runs and guns they have everybody can shoot threes they have multiple nba big guys um and he just surrounded he basically surrounded himself with nba players and they ran an nba offense and um that that was part of what made it so intoxicating is like you're watching this you're like holy hell we haven't seen this in college basketball in years this is amazing amazing. This guy must be unbelievable. But then you kind of step back and you're like, well, it helps that he's got TJ Leaf. And he's got Bryce Offord, who's not an NBA player, but he's a knockdown three-point shooter to throw to.

He's got these experienced wings that he can pass to. So he had the perfect situation for his skills at UCLA. Now, the flip side is he has a ton of skill and he he was part of the reason they were so good was like he could see the floor he pushed the tempo he controlled the offense that kind of stuff but but yeah you you wonder and that's the thing with like a lot of guys that come into the nba and i think like most fans don't realize um or maybe they do they just don't care that just because you're the fit still matters like just because you're the best player doesn't mean that you're going to be the best player in

college like or in nba um where you go what team you go to matters and like what the situation is matters and you can't just take like any guy and just throw him on any team and assume that he would have the same success like if car Towns went to Philly instead of – if him and Okafor were flipped that year, because that was kind of sort of a debate, maybe they both have different careers. I'm sure Towns would have been better than Okafor, but that stuff sort of matters.

Yeah, and I think Okafor is probably – That's not a great example, I know, but – No, no, no. No, I think it's a great example because he went to the worst possible team. If you play Okafor's first two years over again, but he lands on five different teams, I guarantee this Philly experience was the worst it could have gone for him. He doesn't have a point guard.

He's playing with seven other big guys. But, yeah, I think the reason that I still believe in Lonzo and I'm trying, you know, as much as I like some of the other guys in this draft, Lonzo's the one guy that I always use the word contagious. Something about the way he plays makes the other guys kind of start playing that way. And there's been very few guys who could have that kind of impact on their teammates, where all of a sudden

everybody else is looking up, and everybody else is looking for the next pass, and that extra pass, and, oh, I see that guy under the basket, I'm going to find him. Something about what he does, it just kind of infects the other guys in a really good way. And that's why, like, you know, if the Lakers do take him,

I think they have to trade Russell. I just don't see how that works. I would just hand the car keys to Lonzo and try to put people around him that could be, you know, kind of have similar DNA to him. Like, if I was the king, would you trade the number 10 pick, if you're the king, for Russell? Do you still believe in Russell?

Because you liked him in college. So the Ohio State alum in me says I have to believe in Russell. I'll be honest. I haven't watched a ton of Lakers. Believe it or not, the Lakers aren't really moving the needle for college basketball fans right now. Right. But, yeah, I still think d'angelo's got great like he he in a weird way like he kind of

sort of reminds like he his ceiling to me is what foltz is and i know that sounds absolutely insane but like he kind of had that feel in college like he was foltz so i'm not really sure what what the what's wrong what's going wrong if he's he's also like a little maybe a little too into the la lifestyle so it might be good for him to kind of get out of LA and end up in Sacramento. Yeah. That'd be, that'd be good for him. Let's, uh, let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. All right. Quick break. I want to talk about Delta, my favorite airline. It really is. I love Delta. And one of the reasons I love Delta is Delta studio, which offers every type of entertainment for every passenger for free. Delta studio grants you, which offers every type of entertainment for every passenger for free.

Delta Studio grants you access to over 1,000 hours of entertainment all from your seat back. For your own device, 100% free podcast games, TV shows, up to 300 movies, access to HBO Showtime, 18 channels of live satellite TV on select flights, where you can listen to your favorite artists with Delta Studios' expansive music library. Delta is also partnered with the likes of HGTV, Refinery29, Food Network, Hulu Originals, and more to offer you great content. It's all streamable

on your laptop, iPhone, iPad, or Android tablet device via the GoGo Entertainment app. Oh yeah, GoGo. yeah go go buckle up relax delve into another world as you soar above your own with endless entertainment from delta studio your journey is sure to fly by check out that delta has a great app too if you ever fly on delta i'm a big fan of the delta app it's one of the best ones. Since we're here, let's also talk about my friends at

harrys.com. I use their razors. They sent me some, I think it's been almost two years since I started using Harris. They saved my life. I used to get terrible shaving cuts. I do not get shaving cuts anymore. I have a clean, happy face. If you're not using their state-of-the-art German engineered razors, I don't know what to tell you. I don't know. I don't know why you'd go to the drugstore and just buy generic company razors when you get Harris. Harris is the best.

On harris.com right now, buy listeners and get themselves a free trial set that includes a weighted ergonomical handle, five precision engineered blades with a lubricating strip and a trimmer blade, a rich lathering shave gel, and a trade travel blade cover. And guess what? Harry's is so confident in the quality of their blades.

They want you to try their shave set for free. You heard that right, for free. Just cover a $3 shipping fee when you sign up. That's it. It's a $13 value for you to try a special offer for fans of the BS podcast. Here's what you do. Go to harrys.com slash BS. That's it right now. Go to harrys.com slash BS right now and redeem your free trial set. Just cover that free shipping again, harry's.com slash E S back to Mark Titus. So we're going to call this part of the podcast.

Are we sure Lonzo ball's going second? Josh Jackson's really, really good at basketball. And I think if you're just ranking, who are the shortest bets in this draft, who get to bet your life on it, which guys will make an all-star team? I think

Josh Jackson has to be number two on that list. Am I right? Would anyone over him? I would say yes because I love defense and athleticism. I love that because it doesn't go away. Like if you're a great defender and if you're six,

eight and a freak athlete, I mean, it goes away when you get older, obviously, but like every single night he's going to be that. And he, he kind of knows what he is. And yeah,

so I would say that, but I, I'm terrible at this stuff. I don't really know. Yeah. But you watched all these guys like a lot of people like O'Connor Kevin O'Connor at the ringer he loves Jason Tatum and I think there's real reasons to love Jason Tatum because that's somebody you know comparison sometimes

it's tough like I don't really know who to compare Darren Fox to because um there's really nobody like there hasn't been like a freak lefty athlete that played point guard who's skinny like him but super competitive. There's just nobody like that. But you can kind of pigeonhole him in these things and be like, well, his speed and athleticism is maybe on the level of Wall. Not quite what he does. He doesn't have the strength of Westbrook,

but we've seen guys with DNA like that make it. With Tatum, it's just like he's Danny Granger. He has a chance to be a better version of Danny Granger. I've seen Tatum before, and I know that's going to work. I know that model works in the pros. He's going to be able to play the two, three, or four, and I just get it with him. So I would say him andson would be two or three i don't that doesn't mean they should go second or third but you just know what they are you know and like you said with jackson like he

if you have athleticism and defense and you can shoot that's it you're just going to be a reliable bet every night right the one thing i'd worry about Tatum is the Duke DNA. The one, what does it mean that the one guy who has been a great one and done and, and Mike, since, since the one and done era that coach K has started playing the one and done game, the one successful undeniably successful one and done guy is Kyrie Irving.

And he didn't really actually play for Duke. So by the way, by the way, Kyrie Irving, not successful until LeBron showed up. That's true. Yeah.

He was there for three years and it was, uh, it was a clusterfuck and it wasn't really until LeBron showed up that all of a sudden he wasn't, you know, he was headed down the Steve Francis, Stephon Marbury path that I think LeBron

probably said. Who's your favorite? The top seven it seems to be in some order probably is Fultz first, Lonzo second, Jackson, Tatum, and Fox, Monk, Jonathan Jonathan Isaac and then Dennis yeah seems to be the top

eight some order is there anybody you love out of that top eight that you feel like is being underrated I I mean I guess I would have said Fox like a month ago but I think people are starting to like jump on the Fox I still i think monk maybe like monk monk was really hot for a little while and then fox kind of stole the shine um monk was i don't know like i was at the game in in vegas when monk had 47 on north carolina and was just yeah that was that was a there were unbelievable athletes on that floor that night there were unbelievable length size like that was in that felt like an nba game the pace of it, all that kind of stuff. And he just was nonstop.

At no point in that game did it feel like he was not going to be an NBA All-Star. And I know it's because he was making shots, but it was also just the way he carried himself and the way he – I don't know, the balls he had. He took the game winner was an absolutely terrible shot, and he just took it and knew it was going in. And that's kind of how he played all year. And I guess like, that's the knock on him is that he's definitely a guy that you could stop the game in the middle of the game and ask him what the score is. And he'd be like, I have no idea, but I said, I have 17. That's what I know. So I guess like, maybe,

maybe that's not great, but I don't know. Like the Monk bandwagon was, was full steam ahead in like December and January. And then as Fox started to develop, I don't know, like the, the Monk thing started to slow down. So maybe,

maybe I'll get that going again. Let's get back on the Monk bandwagon. Well, the problem for him is, and it's a college basketball problem and it's an AAU problem. You know, the point guard has the ball so much and determines so much of what's happening, and the offenses are so bad that we end up fixating on the point guard

and whoever the rebounder slash low post guy slash shot blocker is. And those are the two guys that stand out, and there's just no other way. And when I watch Kentucky, and one of the reasons I really like Mock so much was that i just felt like if they had turned the offense over to him if fox just didn't exist he could have run the offense and been their lead creator slash playmaker and they you know they might have even been better we'll never know um but i think you can run the offense through him yeah you, he's not a great ball handler, but I think his shot, and he does have great instincts,

and obviously he's got unlimited range and all that kind of stuff. And it's sort of having those two things together kind of make up for his lack of, and he's not like a bad ball handler. He's just not someone who's going to cross guys up and that kind of stuff. Yeah, but you could still, with the spacing that he's going to create with his shot, and you run him around screens,

there's ways to revolve an offense around him that could make him really dangerous. Especially in the NBA when you have, a little like what Washington was doing with Bradley Beal in the Boston series, where you're just running him off pick after pick after pick and flip-offs and you're doing that just non-stop and the defenders start wearing down and all Monk needs is

one second. There's some Dennis Smith buzz. The knock on him was that other than that his team was terrible that you know he'd hurt his knee maybe he wasn't 100% back and then apparently in these workouts

in the Orlando he's been doing great did you watch him any thoughts on him because he's the one that might jump I'm proud to say I didn't watch Dennis Smith this year I'm proud every college basketball fan listening to this is just nodding and saying yes thank you year i'm proud every every college basketball fan listening to this is just nodding and saying yes

thank you i'm probably it was like a it was like a personal boycott of mine i think to just like a part of me was like should i watch it should i watch nc state to kind of get a feel for dennis smith and then you would you would just see the scores the headlines the all that kind of stuff going on at state no no so so we both think Fox could go to three at Philly. I don't think that's inconceivable he could be a top three pick. I'm with you on that one. Alright, last thing. Because we've talked about doing this on

the podcast, but we've never actually done it. You played AAU ball with Gordon Hayward, and you've known Gordon Hayward forever. When did you meet Gordon Hayward? I played high school with Gordon. We went to the same high school. Yeah, he was two years younger than me.

So I don't even really remember. I mean, like when I was just like kind of grew up, like I didn't really grow up with him because he was younger than me. And I was awesome and cool and he was a nerd and he was younger. So, you know, you kind of pick on him a little bit. But no, like I wouldn't say like i hung out with him but like yeah we played growing up together a little bit and he was shorter for a while right like he had he was one of those late groupers guys yeah he was uh so when i was

a senior he was a sophomore he played a little jv a little varsity um and he was probably 5 11 6 foot 6 1 maybe something like that. Yeah, weighed 150 pounds. And then two years later, I'm at Ohio State, and I'm talking to my dad, and my dad's like, yeah, I go to all the high school games. I'm like, really, why do you do that? Aren't there better things to do? And he's like, well, you know, Gordon is 6'8 now

and dunking on people. And I'm like, wait, what? How did that happen? Where was that when I was his teammate? So, yeah, he was definitely a late bloomer. You think that there's a legit connection with him and Brad Stevens. Explain that part. So the story there is Hayward's parents have, I think they still do.

Maybe, don't quote me on this one, but when he was playing at Butler, they had Purdue season tickets. They were Purdue people. They went to all the Purdue games when we were in high school. And then even when Gordon was on Butler, playing for Butler, they still had Purdue season tickets. And that's noteworthy because Purdue offered Gordon a scholarship. He could have gone to Purdue and played at Purdue with like,

by the way, I know you don't care about this, but other people that are listening might. That would have been like the Robbie Hummel, Etuan Moore, Jawan Johnson years at Purdue. I resent that. Why don't I care about that? I don't care about this, but other people that are listening might. That would have been like the Robbie Hummel, Etuan Moore, Juwan Johnson years at Purdue. I resent that. Why don't I care about that? How dare you? So yeah, that Purdue team was insane. And they could have had Gordon Hayward on top of that.

But he chose Butler because Brad Stevens was basically like the first guy who saw something in him and offered him and kind of recruited him early and all that kind of stuff. And he was just like loyal to Stevens and he loves Stevens and and and you know like that's not that's not something that just Hayward feels towards Stevens I mean like everybody who interacts with them loves Stevens I've I can't tell this story enough Bill that Stevens was I was on the very first team that Stevens ever coached so I sort of feel a connection to him when he was 22 years old um a volunteer assistant, I think, at Butler,

he was coaching third graders on the side as like a side gig, and I was one of those third graders. That's amazing. Yeah, so I still have that loyalty to students. Yeah. Now he's battling LeBron. So your theory here is that Gordon Hayward, once upon a time, bouncing around between JV and varsity,

grows a little bit, makes the team junior year. Only Brad Stevens sees something in him. Only Brad Stevens, yeah. He's welcome, offers him a scholarship. Then Gordon Hayward has this dramatic growth spurt. Now he's the best player in Indiana. He can go anywhere he wants. His family's Purdue.

They have Purdue season tickets. Purdue comes around late. They say, hey, man, hey, sorry we're late to the party, but we'd love to give you a scholarship. And Gordon Hayward says, I'm good. I'm going with the first person who ever believed in me. I'm going with Brad. Yeah.

So why doesn't this lead to them reuniting this summer? I don't know. I can't answer that. Maybe weiting this summer? I don't know. I can't answer that. Maybe we will see. I don't know. Yeah, because that's why I really feel like there's a chance. I hope so. Boston needs a break.

Boston sports fans need something to finally go your way. I mean, if you just gave Gordon Hayward off Jay Crowder's minutes we're like 8 wins better just off the bat maybe Ted Jay Crowder, did your dad was he always like did he fixate on one guy who drove him crazy

when he watched basketball Jay Crowder Jay Crowder drives my dad crazy can I just say before we go that the Celtics winning the lottery is sort of my worst nightmare, only in the sense that I am receiving secondhand homerism from you for this, that people are talking to me about the Celtics as though, one, that I'm a Celtics fan,

or two, what does this mean for Simmons and like and I just want to say I do not care I don't care I don't really care about the NBA that much I certainly don't care about the Celtics winning and I do find it amazing that the Celtics went number one the Lakers went number two and um this is so obviously rigged it hurts but you know I love I love that you're you're going to find a way to say that, like, it was rigged for the Lakers but not the Celtics, by the way. I have to say that, too. I watched the 15-minute ping-pong thing because it was online last night

trying to figure out if there's any way they could have rigged it because the Celtics winning balls were 7, 1, 9, and 10. So I was like, all right, now if those four balls come up again and it's a slightly different order and it's the Lakers, one that's not sufficient, but then the Celtics won it the second time and the third time, and then the Lakers won the fourth time and the combinations were different. First of all, I think it's massively illegal if they rigged it, but

for me, it was always more of just like, this is what happens to the Lakers. They're like the family in your neighborhood that just keeps getting breaks and anytime they start hitting adversity, something good happens. It's just what's

been going on with them for 70 years. That's why I thought they were going to win it. If you were going to rig it, it would look exactly like it ended up though is all I'll say. It would be the Celtics 1 and the Lakers 2. Ball could go to LA and his dad could be out there doing that thing and they can get that going. The Celtics can get the number one pick, add it to the Eastern Conference final team. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying I'm just saying.

Listen, I certainly can't refute any of it. The only thing I would say is you probably would have given the Knicks the third pick if you were really going on with it. That's very true. You would have had Celtics-Lakers than Knicks. I'll also say when people come up to you and ask you about being the Celtics,

I think you should tell them the story about how I'm kind of your Brad Stevens. I was the first person who believed in Mark Titus. That's a good point. I thought something in that gangly kid before his big growth spurt. There's something here. I'm offering you a scholarship. That's an excellent point. That's a great point. Hey, we should mention you wrote about Draymond Green for the

ringer today I did I wrote about the Draymond Green I wrote about this idea that um you can find the next Draymond Green that uh you know the Warriors have changed how basketball is played and a lot of that's because you have two of the best shooters of all time but also because Draymond Green can guard any position and all that kind of stuff. So there's this idea that teams just need to find the next Draymond Green and then they're good and then they can go from there. And my piece was about how that's stupid and that's not going to happen because there isn't another Draymond Green out there. Because this idea that Draymond just suddenly became what he is

is ridiculous to anyone who paid attention to his career i mean he's been the same player since high school it's just that he didn't really fit into what basketball was at those times in his life and then like once people once people kind of understood his game they're like oh we could do something with this and then he became a great player and that's kind of like how his career has gone it happened at michigan state he wasn't that great to begin with and then tom is i was like oh here's some stuff we could do with you and then he became big 10 player of the year and then it happened with the warriors he was coming off the bench and then they're like oh how can we use your skill set to to make this happen um so it's not like he was just like some bum who couldn't really play that much and then

just worked really hard and got into the gym and all that kind of stuff. And then suddenly became a great player. He was the same player all along. It was just, you know, people didn't really know what to do with him. And his teams always did well. The one thing with him at Michigan State, the obvious difference is just that he was heavier and in much worse shape. That's very true, yeah. What was he, like 25 pounds heavier? I mean, the wrap on him cut me out of

in college i think i don't think i did that draft actually but i remember the rap in college was uh too fat too short yeah like he's an inch and a half too short and he's too fat he's not in shape he'll never stay in shape he'll probably get fatter and you know to his credit he got an awesome shape and he also learned how to shoot you know he begins from three i guess the point to take away from that too is that it's not just his body type that has made him great like it's his intangibles like he was overweight and he was still one of the best players in the country and the reason why is because he is just insane he's just like he's got a competitive spirit unlike anything um you know like some people love it some people hate it whatever but he is just crazy about winning and all that kind of stuff um so yeah i i that was

kind of the point of the piece is that this idea that you can just plug in any six foot seven guy who with with long arms and just say like hey go be go be Draymond green. Um, that's, that's not going to work. When you shut it down, LaMarcus Aldridge, I was thinking like, there's gotta be only him and Rodman in the, in maybe,

maybe Kevin McHale. Cause Kevin McHale could guard everyone from like Andrew, Tony to Kareem. But the fact that Draymond can guard everybody from, you know, James Harden to LaMarcus Aldridge is insane. There's nobody in the league like him that has a bigger disparity of guys he can kind of shut down. But it's just so weird how people assume

that you can just go pluck the next Draymond out of the draft. But I mean, of course you should try to find the next Draymond. He's unbelievable. But if you're going to say that, why not try to find the next LeBron? Why not try to find the next Draymond like he's he's unbelievable but like if you're gonna say that why not try to find the next LeBron why not try to find the next Durant the next Curry I mean like yeah that's that's a really an enlightening thought go try to find a guy who can guard five positions and is the heart and soul of one of the greatest teams of all time that's what you should do good luck right there is a recurring theme though that and i think this is the one thing that's been borne out and this is i think why we both like

fox so much that that that higher level of competitiveness seems to translate pretty well i remember i oh wait for some reason i watched a ton of basketball in oa college hoops i think that was the last year i really threw myself into it. And I just loved Westbrook. And kept watching him because I was watching that year for love because, you know, Kevin Love was such a fun college player. And I remember watching Westbrook and just going, what's this guy? And then looking up his draft ranking and he was like 28. You know, like, why is he 28?

This guy's a freak. But it was the whole thing. I'm like, well, what position is he 28 this guy's a freak but it was it was the whole thing like well what position is he he's not a point guard what is he and it's just like you know what he is he's just a really fucking competitive guy and for once the league actually over corrected like he went fourth which even i thought that was insane i liked westbrook but i had him earmarked like 8, 9, 10, 11, somewhere in there. Okay, so he took him fourth. I was like, whoa! Settle down! We don't know

what position this guy is, but it was borne out. Competitiveness, usually that's a win, and that's the thing that scares both of us, I think, about Alonzo, just to bring it full circle. It's like, man, it bothers me that he didn't show up in that game. Maybe it's one game

and you can't make too much of it, but right there, Fox is in the octagon with you. Then again, Tyler Hansborough also exists, so we have to keep that in mind as well. Tyler Hansborough's in. Yeah, so. Hey, if you want to listen to more of Mark Titus,

check out the Teed Up podcast On the Ringer University podcast Yeah we're doing once a week We're doing draft stuff too it's not all college We talk more college stuff Tate and I are more interested in maybe the second round guys The

The fact that the three Leading contenders for national player of the year This year all of them are going to go in the late second round if they get drafted at all and how that's just interesting to us. So we like talking about that sort of stuff. Did you see Tyler Euless come in? Yes and no. Like I,

I definitely thought he was too short and all that kind of stuff, but he was, he was good as hell, man. He, I, I knew he had the skill and all that kind of stuff, but I,

I, I kind of believe too much in the uh he's too short thing i think if i could redo that one i would i would not buy into that as much it was interesting that they took him partly because he was devin booker's buddy and uh and now it's turned into like you know it's that was one of the best picks of the last couple years is is why why is this not a thing for a team that has no identity and has no direction or whatever? Just try to get as many Kentucky guys as possible

and hire Calipari and make that your thing. Why is this not a strategy? To be honest, I was wondering if Sacramento might do that. Yeah. If they try to come out of this draft with Monk and Fox and then you already have Colley Stein there. You have Scal, although maybe Cal might not. Does he

recognize Scal or not? Oh, yeah, you were in Kentucky. Hey, how are you? Good to see you. Yeah, that might be a good direction for them. All right, Mark Titus, follow him on Club Trillion on Twitter and check out his Draymond Green piece

on The Ringer. Thanks for coming on, buddy. Yeah, this was fun. Thanks so much to SeatGeek, our presenting sponsor. Don't forget to download the SeatGeek app today or go right to SeatGeek.com. Thanks to Harry's. Don't forget to go to harrys.com slash BS. And thanks to Delta, my favorite airline.

Don't forget about Delta Studio. 1,000 hours of entertainment all from your seat back or your own device. 100% free podcast games, TV shows, up to 300 movies. Access to HBO and Showtime shows. 18 channels of live satellite TV and

select rights. You can even listen to your favorite artists with Delta's expansive music library. All streamable on your laptop, iPhone, iPad, Android, tablet device, via the GoGo Entertainment app. Buckle up, relax, dive into a different world as you're on a Delta airplane. We'll be back on Friday. Sorry about the hotel phone.

I hope this one sounded better than it did yesterday, but we'll be back on Friday with another BS Podcast. Go Subs. On the wayside I'm a bruised son Never lost it I don't have to ever forget