The Bill Simmons Podcast - NBA Draft Red Flags, Edey Sleeper Watch, and a UFC 303 Breakdown With Kevin O’Connor, J. Kyle Mann, and Ariel Helwani

Episode Date: June 25, 2024

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Kevin O'Connor and J. Kyle Mann to discuss an incredibly ambiguous NBA draft; they discuss the range of opinions on foreign prospects Alex Sarr and Zaccharie Risacher, Reed Sheppard's ceiling, why Rob Dillingham is the most interesting player in the draft, why Zach Edey belongs in the NBA, "slide guys," and much more (2:07). Then Bill talks with Ariel Helwani about how the UFC has become Bill's third-favorite sport, the upcoming UFC 303, "Should we give up on Conor McGregor?," and more (1:03:51). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Kevin O’Connor, J. Kyle Mann, and Ariel Helwani Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, we're talking last minute NBA draft stuff, including some bets, UFC 303, and Canada's drought all next. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this, it's game day, all the gangs here, you quality, great taste. Picture this. It's game day. All the gang's here. You're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer.

Or how about when you're standing at the grill and the smell of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that. Or when you want a light beer that tastes like beer, that's delicious. You don't want to load up on those heavier beers and then you only have two of them. Then you feel tired.

Your stomach feels full. Miller Lite, it's your friend. It just accompanies whatever else you're doing. You're super happy with it. Opening an ice cold Miller Lite can signal the beginning of Miller time. Miller Lite is the light beer with all the great beer tastes we like. 90 calories per 355 mil can. So why not grab some Miller Lights today?

Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. You know me, I can't go a day without sports. I really can't. And now Monday nights are all about hockey. That's right. There's a new exclusive home

for streaming Monday night NHL hockey, and it's on prime all season long. Watch prime Monday night hockey deliver unreal plays. The biggest goals can't miss moments. Matthews, McDavid, Crosby, the NHL's best. They're all on prime prime Monday night hockey. It's on Monday. It's on prime. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. Just put up a new Rewatchables. Van Lathan and I did Bad News Bears, the 1976 version with Walter Matthau and Tatum O'Neill.

Had a great time. That was the end of 70s sports movie month. You can also watch that on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel. And there's a new Instagram feed as well for the Rewatchables. It's at the rewatchables pod, which we're going to be messing around with. We're going to have a lot of fun

with movies this summer. Rewatchables, moving to two times a week, starting this week, heading for the next two months because we're burning off the Rewatchables 1999 episodes that we did five years ago.

It's time. Now it's the 25-year anniversary of the 1999 movies. I think we are doing Big Daddy for this Thursday. So stay tuned for that. Coming up on this podcast, Kevin O'Connor and J. Kyle Mann

from The Ringer. We're going to talk a lot of NBA draft stuff. Taping this on a Tuesday afternoon. All the storylines as we head into Wednesday night's first round. We're going to have some hot takes. We're going to talk about where we see the draft,

where the possible trade options. And then after that, our guy, Ariel Hawani is coming on. He hosts the Ringer MMA show. He is the best UFC voice in the world. And we're going to talk about UFC 303. We're going to talk about the pound for pound rankings. We're going to talk about Canada's drought. 31 years and counting in the NHL.

Does he care? Can you care if you're from Canada, but you don't actually root for the Canada, for the Canadian team that's in the Stanley Cup? All those questions answered and a lot more. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, we're taping this. It is about 2.15 Pacific time.

J. Kyle Maness here. Kevin O'Connor is here, both from The Ringer. And we're going to talk NBA draft stuff. Hopefully, before people listening hear this, no weird basketball trade stuff happens. I'm going to keep my fingers crossed for the next couple hours. But I've thrown myself into this draft. Mostly become the finals ended early. Casual Bill is here

with some poorly crafted half-assed draft takes. But KOC, is it more fun when the draft sucks? Why is it more fun to have just all these like maybes, sort ofs, I can talk myself into this kind of it's just i feel like teams are going to draft by needs and all hell is going to break loose on wednesday night where would you rather have a draft loaded or a draft that's weird like

this a draft that's uncertain and certain that's what makes it fun to me because i think you can have that type of uncertain atmosphere with like a lot of great prospects but the fact that this year we don't know what's going to be happening at number one we don't know who's going to be picking where with all the trade discussions that are happening that's what makes it really fun to me because it's not even just like that the top five or the top three it's it's like that at number 10 but we get like a thon maker level surprise there are we like right who's going to be taken at like number 17 or number 25 out of the you know 40 or so guys that you could argue belong in the the top 20 it's like one of those weird deep years at each level of the draft so i love all the uncertainty that's made like a lot of discussions fun with you know with, with Kyle over the recent weeks with the draft show and,

and then talking to people around the league through the process too. It's nobody really knows what's going to happen even just one day out. Well, we've all been texting a lot. I mean, first of all, research is like pretty much still a consensus number one pick and none of us really totally see it. So there's that. And then you have SAR who is either going to go first or second, it seems like, project. I think it's fair to say. Some curiousness about him just in general, not really caring whether he goes first or not.

I think I really want to unpack that, Kyle. Just from a psychological standpoint, somebody who's like oh yeah I don't really care if I work out for the team with the number one pick because they might not be the best fit I just would like to go to a team that I could get minutes on just fundamentally seems weird to me where do you stand on it yeah it's like you'd like to see some of that like chip on the shoulder um just that nuclear sort of like engine in a player like the thing the the luca like snarling at the camera level type nasty shit but maybe in this draft where there's sort of an absence of like a projected primary like offensive like a

star level talent maybe maybe we're looking for that and it's not not there and maybe it's like a sort of like a temptation a pitfall to read into it too much, you know, at the same time. Because maybe he's smart and he wants to go to the best fit. I don't know. I'm trying to make like excuses for him. Kevin, I mean, Kevin, when you rattled through like all the different places he went, when you started to lay it out like that, I was like, oh, that is a little more concerning maybe than I had originally thought. Do the list, KFC. I mean, so, I mean, he started outside of Real Madrid.

He left them, obviously, a big international team. He left there to go play an overtime elite, brand new league, lower level of competition. And then when it's time to leave OTE, rather than stay in the United States, go to a big school or even go to the G League, where as we saw this past season with Holland and Buzelas, tough level of competition with all the talent in the G League now.

He instead goes to play in Australia as a bench guy, playing behind veterans on a team trying to make the playoffs. And then when it comes time to work out for the number one pick, he decides not to do that as well. And so there's been a history for years now with him kind of avoiding that toughest well. And so like, there's been a history for years now with him kind of, you know, avoiding that toughest path. And I like the people you talked to around the league that are on the more skeptical side of SAR. A lot of people look at that history and there's concern there when you also factor in on the floor. You know, I talked with, you know, Damian Wilkins, who is like the head of scouting, GM of Overtime Elite, former NBA player.

And we talked about Saar and Dillingham and other OT prospects. And with Saar, he's like, well, we got him in. He just wanted to play on the perimeter. We had to teach him to be a guy to attack the rim. He's like, he wasn't being aggressive. We taught him nobody can stop you. Well, this year in the NBL, he shot 48% on layups at the rim. He's kind of contact adverse.

As Kyle and I have talked about throughout the year, it's like he feels like he should be this versatile beast. People compare him to Derek Lively, but he's not that level of athlete or dunker or finisher. And so I just feel like with Sauer, factoring in the off-court stuff with those decisions and then the on court performance, it's just too much theoretical for me to want to put him at number one on my

board this year. And I can see, I can see why Atlanta, even if they did work him out, wouldn't want to take him. Sounds like the perfect wizard to me. Everything you just laid out seems just classic. Usually,

usually when you, usually when you have a 48 percenter like that who's big like that you usually have it with like the caveat of like okay well like brandon miller's a little smaller or i'm just trying to think of like guys who are like true pick and pop bigs who are sort of upright perimeter guys who justifiably have a preference to be out there and to do that but the shot is really shaky too You know, he kind of I would say he kind of has this low on his shoulder. He shoots like Tari Eason sort of low into the side on his shoulder. It's not like it's impossible that it can never come around. But the finishing and then you combine it with the sort of like avoiding the hardest path. Those those flaws are visible even with him choosing the lesser path. So it just kind of makes you think, like, where would we be? Where would we be if he had chosen this other path and exposed those flaws even more? Would we, you know, feel like we're all three kind of hanging on by a thread in our belief in him?

It kind of makes me think we'd be totally out if he had chosen that hard path. And how much are we also anchoring him to the pretty good week he had against the ignite where he like locked down ron holland on a handful of possessions he had two good games but then he had a pretty forgettable entire season in australia i mean it was okay but it was nothing special in a bench role so like how much of it is like he's just anchored after that week against the ignite rather than like even but prior to that game i think i had him like 16 or 17 on my you know pre-season board i like he's like solid but nothing spectacular and at this point now i moved him down to six and i feel solid with him there but even

then i mean i'm like i'd rather somebody else take him to be the gm that ends up taking alex r yeah i mean i keep thinking what Tate texted us. Sorry, Tate's not here. Tate's on like 40 ringer shows this week, so I thought I'd give him a break. But Tate was saying how would you take a guy first or second who

didn't feel really strongly that he should be the first pick in the draft? And I never thought of it that way, but I was thinking maybe that's a way to think about this stuff. Like if you ask Anthony Edwards in 2020, Hey, who do you think should be the top player in this draft? And he would be like, not only should I be the first part of this draft, but also in the NFL draft and the MLB draft first in all the drafts. I think they should give a polygraph before each draft cycle to the players that might go

and be like, if you and LeBron were in the same draft, should you go first? Like we just test how like wildly crazy confident they are. Just kind of give them a rating based on that. And then the NBA should mandate that release to the public

so we could have it. I mean, one of the reasons that like, one of the many reasons I like Steph Castle is like, I think if you asked him that, I think he would genuinely believe he should be the first pick in the draft, right? I think Dillingham, for better and worse, would think he's the best part of the draft, no question.

But it is an interesting way to think about it. I asked Castle a similar question, Bill, when I interviewed him on Monday. And I asked him like, do you think you can become a top 10 to 15 player? And his answer wasn't maybe as confident as you would have hoped. It was more, that's what I want to be. That's the goal.

That's what everyone's goal should be. And I'm going to work as hard as I can to become that. So I would assume he would have had a similar answer if I had asked exactly the question you did about, should you be the number one pick of the drafts? Yeah, I remember a million years ago when Jalen and I did this interview series with all the draft picks in 2013 and we were really putting thought into how they answered stuff. And the two guys that jumped out

from a confidence standpoint were Oladipo and McCollum. Just the way they handled themselves, their answers, and their confidence. And you do realize when you're running these teams, you could get so swayed one way or the other by how somebody handles stupid things like that. But I say this every year, the draft isn't an exact science,

but especially in a stupid draft like this where it's basically like the top five doesn't exist. It's just, we're basically starting at pick six and you have to think of it that way or pick four, however you want to start it. I just want to go with like, what are you, what's the one or two things you're just really good at? And, and that's it. So if we, if we go through the draft of like the top guys, what are you really, really, really good at? It becomes a little easier, right? Because Klingon, it's like rim protection, lobs. Okay. Those are two things. That's like Derek Lively last year. Those are the recipe for if you redid last year's draft. Castle, it's like

athleticism, perimeter defense. Like, oh, that's somebody that could play in a playoff series. Reed Shepard, shooting, Dillingham, really crazy high offensive ceiling and so on and so on. When I get to like the, the SAR Risa Shea, like Risa Shea, who we got to talk about why he's the consensus number one pick, but nobody actually has him number one on a board that we've seen. And it's like the Risa Shea from what I, and I'm back out to not liking him. I liked him Sunday and now I'm kind of drifting away from it. But the best case scenario for him is basically like Troy, uh, Trey Murphy, right? I was like, Troy Murphy. Oh God.

Troy Murphy would be tough. Troy Murphy. I got, I got, I got a Troy Murphy comp in the guy. Quentin Post, seven foot out of Boston College. Troy Murphy got paid. He got one big contract. But Reese O'Shea, couldn't you say that

that's like his best case scenario is that he could become Trey Murphy? No, I don't think so. I think Trey Murphy's got a flamethrower jumper and Reese O'Shea doesn't. He's a clip, man. Like Trey Murphy is flamethrower.

I'm giving you the best case. I mean, and I have my, for my shades of Harrison Barnes, Tobias Harris. Like a little bit more streaky as a shooter. That alarm Joe House, just for the record. Joe House saw those two names. He's like, I'm out!

No! I mean, I get it with Reese O'Shea. I get, well, you know, the 6'8". You know, he's versatile defensively. He's really good as an off-ball defender. You can switch him and play different schemes and all that. I get that he shot almost 40% from three this year, but the fact is that he really only had two good months shooting the ball in his entire lifetime. But if you're taking him first, you better think he's as good of a shooter as Trey Murphy

potentially someday. Otherwise, I don't understand why you would do it. I don't either. I really don't. I mean, look, he shot like 48% from three the first two months of the season playing in France. And then he shot below 30% for the remainder of the year, which is pretty similar to what he did every other year of his career playing professionally. And he's been around a 70% guy from the free throw line. He is not a shot creator,

does not get to the rim a lot, is not much of a playmaker. And I think he's a very good defender but not necessarily you know he's not herb jones he's not that type of guy on defense so i just have a hard time with him at one he feels like if if the spurs or some team feel really good about him as a shooter and what he can be long term i think he's going to be a good role player but i don't think he's worth number one for atlanta or you know washington at two for that matter and he doesn't really make sense for houston at three and so it's not until four with the spurs

and i'm like okay i this makes some sense to me what do you where do you stand on that one kyle i'm with him on that i mean i you think about like the outcomes that we're we're like willing to accept with him and i think that like if he's think that if he's in my rotation and he comes in and he can make... I don't want to overdo it with how shaky the shooting is. He was 41.4% on spot-up looks. You got to think about the types of shots that he's going to be taking. He's probably going to be attacking straight line drives. He does have some nice touch around the basket.

He's a smooth mover. He doesn't look like... I don't think he's as stiff as Tobias. But, yeah, in terms of being a help kind of scheme defender, I think he'll hold up pretty well. It's just are you betting on the growth plate on his game? Are you saying this is a guy that we think could become a facilitator? Probably not. He's probably going to become a connective,

pass-it-off-the- the catch guy at best, I think. And I think that's somebody worth taking a gamble on, like in the like five to or like eight to 13 kind of range for me. Yeah, that sounds great. So why is Gavone so adamant that he's going to be the first pick? I don't understand it. Well, when I had Gavone on the draft show, the way Gavone spilled out to me is like he's been a high volume shooter for years now. He's taken a lot of shots. And Gavone told a story about how he was on a plane with him once. And they're sitting in these crunch seats in a middle seat. And he's like, well, you put him in an NBA situation where he's got daytime off and NBA training and conditioning that that shot will fall with more consistency.

My thing with that is, yeah, but he's been a 70% guy from the free throw line. I don't think all that changes. He's never been an elite touch guy. So it's like a really big bet on projecting that shot to become a 40% or near 40% guy like he was for two months this season. And I'm just not there with him. I think there's other guys who are safer bets. There's other upside plays.

Ron Holland being one of them. I'd still take Saar over him. Hollinger had Ron Holland number one today in his list. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah, there's still some Holland supporters out there. Wasserman over at Bleacher Report has Holland number one as well. Well, Holland had the classic people got of this like big kid on the playground

guy who like in that like grassroots like high they're in high school they're physically mature but maybe he's a little more mature than his than his peers and he kind of establishes himself as the guy we've seen that happen over and over again whether it's like stanley johnson or it's uh you know uh who's who are the other ones we were thinking of i mean michael kidd gilchrist just couldn't shoot the ball at all i mean that's another one josh jackson um just that archetype sometimes but holland does project i was making a list of my guys that are like most likely you know in the little subcategories, to become a tough assignment defensive guy, he could buy into that.

And I think Holland projects as somebody that could definitely do that. Riesesche, I don't really see that with him, to be honest with you. See, this is why this is such a great draft, guys. Because there's multiple people where you almost feel like you have to have a hard take one or the other.

And there's going to be some stuff that can get cut out a year from now and be like, oh, remember when you said so-and-so and then it turned out to be this way. That's why I would just, like if I was running one of these top four teams, especially, I just want the guys that I know are going to be at least good.

I'm not trying to get like an all-NBA, multi-year, whatever. I'm just trying to get somebody who could be a really good starter. And how many guys is that, that we would kind of bet would at least be really good starters, right? That's Castle, that's Klingon.

Would you put Ron Holland on that list? No, I wouldn't, because the shot. Yeah, so it's like you get nervous with that. Reed Shepard could be... Who was the one that mentioned on one of your pods, the Mark Price comp? I did like a... Kyle and Tate.

I started defending that today. Yeah. I did like a jolt. I didn't mind it. You know, Mark Price obviously had a pretty big college resume. He was good. And to me, he's like the lost great point guard of the 80s

and 90s and blew out his knee at the worst possible time like right in his prime um i don't know if reed shepherd can manage the game like that but i did i didn't mind the comp it's somewhere he's somewhere mark price on the highest possible side and pritchard probably in the lowest possible side. And he's somewhere in there, I would say. But he did, from all counts, really improved over the last year. And Kyle, you got to watch him a ton, obviously. But he's definitely going to be in the top seven of a good team at some point in his career with the shooting. The shooting's like unnaturally good.

The defense could push him, could be the thing that's a big enough problem because he is small. I mean, he has, the one thing about him is that he just has interesting, his game is an interesting Venn diagram where you don't really get the pull-up shooting

that he has with, I mean, you get the passing and the floor court mapping stuff. He has a very smart basketball brain in terms of knowing the geometry of where and how to exploit advantages and things like that. But he has defensive hands that are just really unusual. They're really strong and really accurate. You'll see him come. There will be a scrum around the basket.

And Reid will just get his hand exactly on it, right where it needs to be to be and pop the ball loose he does that kind of stuff all the time the problem is that he is probably like 6'1 and he was basically it turns like he's gonna have to get a lot stronger in the NBA and be more of a deliberate pace player I think to like not be exploited all the time because I think is I don't know Kevin do you think his hands are good enough to be like they're great but it's weird that we have this incredible disruptive skill set, but he also is just kind of small. He's going to get targeted in serious games. I mean, he's only a quarter of an inch shorter than Stephen Curry.

His wingspan is only a quarter of an inch shorter than Stephen Curry. He weighed in the same as Steph when Steph was at the combine. Steph obviously went up to like 190, 195 pounds. This is good KFC. I like this. Bill lit up when you said that. when Steph was at the combine. Steph obviously went up to like 190, 195 pounds. This is good KFC. I like this. Bill lit up when you said that. Wow. So he's small, but he's not much smaller than Stephen Curry.

So I think if he's in the right situation and in the right environment, you're talking about a guy who had five steals five times this season. There's only three other guys in college basketball who did that all year long. He had three block three- three pointers in the final two minutes of three separate games this entire season. So he's clutch with those defensive plays as well. And like you said, he's got that instinct, Kyle, with those good hands looking for loose balls and the interceptions and everything else.

I think Shepard offers enough intangibles on defense that yes, even though he's smaller and yes, even though he's going to get targeted, I mean like the environment's everything. And, and ultimately if he lands on the Spurs and you get Victor back there and with other long arm defenders, I don't know how much that's going to matter when you talk about a guy that hit over 50% of his threes this year.

And it has Ryan, you know, raved about to you like two weeks ago, Bill, on your podcast 95th percentile and everything catch and shoot unguarded guarded dribble pull up for mid

range from three I think reads kind of you know dribble game is a little bit underrated like he's got a pull up from mid range where he can do it like pretty easily like out of his dribble motion it's not like there's a stop and needs to gather like he does it seamlessly when he's handling the ball he's a great passer in the open court which is why

like you and tate when you're going back and forth with your comp you're like well mark price a little lonzo ball with the passing ability i mean i i move i just said screw it these are all players i like no you you've been thinking about him at number one and in that range for a couple months there. I said screw it. I just did it. I put him at one because it's the same logic that you were talking about, Bill. Who are the guys that I think are going to be good?

Shepard, I think, is going to be really good. Klingin, I think, is going to be really good. And Castle, I think, are going to be really good. So I put them one, two, three on my board, and I feel good about it. I think that's smart. Especially the Derek Ladley thing, I think was really instructive. Cause I remember us talking about that last, you guys talked about him endlessly on all our draft pods. And the question was like,

was he just on the wrong team at Duke? Cause this guy has specific skills that if the right team drafts him, he could really unlock. And I think Lively has even been better than any of us ever could have imagined last year. He really, especially at the, you know,

I went to all the finals games. He really jumped out in person in those at Dallas games where you're just like, wow, this guy might actually,

they might have three all-stars here two years from now if Kyrie can stay at that level because he was that impactful as a rim protector, passer, creator. Like I, you know, so we, we kind of saw that last year, but you don't know.

And in Klingon's case, pretty easy to see at least like what, like he's, is he better, better Walker Kessler? Can he, can he become like a Gobert type kind of defender? Lobs guy? So yeah, I think we're all aligned. I think where it gets tough for me is Mattis Bezelis because there's been versions of him that have worked and there's been versions of him that haven't worked. The one thing I do like about him is that he's had the spotlight on him the whole time.

Right. And he's always been in the mix. There's always been attention on him. He did play G League. Yeah, I could see the Franz thing. But we've also seen those type of forwards where it's like, ah, they can kind of do everything, but not really anything. Where do you stand on him, Kyle? The handle is going to be the big thing for me. Like he shows flashes of like he could be a spacer for you who like he doesn't quite get to he's not quite like the horse getting to the rim like like franz was franz was just this powerful force getting into the lane and could take contact

he's kind of got some of the i'm don't don't cringe too much at this like this is more just like where they are in their development he's got kind of the reddish kevin knoxy kind of thing going on with his dribble where when when he takes contact he kind of like stops like he needs to he's got to get low but i believe in his handle more and his feel way more than those two guys so i'm not trying to like bring those two into the conversation uh but like he's, the shooting is the big thing with him that people are worried about. Like, you know, there are people who kind of like wonder, cause he had a really strong sample before at, uh, at sunrise Christian, which is a really reputable, like factory for prospects. And he, he had a good sample, but there are people

who are kind of questioning that even now it's kind of like, well, what is it going to take for him to be consistent? Is it just that, you you know that g league team was terrible as kevin confronted ron holland with hilariously in that interview i like spat my drink out uh you guys suck so much they shut down the team um that that affects the types of looks you can get you know in a setting like that will that improve his sample will speeding up his shot like he has a lot to work on. I think, I'm a believer though. I really think that his feel is going to sort of be the thing that gets him over the hump. And I think the shot is workable enough.

It's not broken. And he adds defense too. I think the defensive versatility, especially off ball, adds room protection. He's tough, hard-nosed, hustles. I think Buzellelas has enough of those qualities on top of the flashes of offensive potential that I give him an edge over Saar and Risa Shea

as kind of those mystery box prospects where you really don't know what you're going to end up getting. And like you said, Kyle, the feel aspect, he can handle a little bit, he can pass a little bit, not as a primary, not as a point forward necessarily, but he can do that with, I think in a good team context with other talented players, he could be one of those connected pieces.

It's interesting that we lean positive on Boose Ellis, but negative on Risa Shay though, isn't it? That like they are similar. What is that about? What do you think the crux of that is? I'm just throwing that for discussion. I think it's the handle.

Like, I think, I think just like Booseella shows more of that creation flashes, like pull-up jumpers for mid-range, and he did it more at the high school level, whereas Richerchet has always been more of that 3 and D and hasn't expanded on the role.

And maybe he just hasn't been able to show it, and maybe in a different context he would have, but we haven't seen it. So Eileen Buzella's there. It would be funny if KOC was like, I just don't trust the French after the Killian Hayes thing. That's just where I am. That might be part of it. It hurt my feelings and that's just where I am now mentally. It might be part of it, Bill. We're going to take a break and then I want to talk about the most fascinating player in the lottery, Rob Dillingham.

This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl,

but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. As the world's population grows, so does the need for resources like potash to support

sustainable food production. This is why BHP is building one of the world's most sustainable potash mines in Canada. Essential resources responsibly produced. This is what BHP has committed to Canada. The future is clear. It's happening now at BHP, a future resources company. To discover how, visit bhp.com slash better future. on the highlights. It's very possible his destiny might be 15 years from now, somebody doing the three-minute mixtape on whatever social platform we have in 2039. And the headline is Rob Dillingham was a problem. That's one outcome. There's another outcome where he's the rookie of the year and is just super fun. And people are like, holy shit, who is this guy? He's like Jamal Crawford crossed with Kyrie. I don't know what to make of the YouTube highlights, Kyle.

I know you watched them all year, but it's really hard for me to believe, A, that Shepard versus Dillingham is not more of an argument for number three. If Houston's like, we want, we want to guard some scoring, which is some explosiveness. I don't know why Dillingham's not in that conversation.

And then just in general, this guy's probably the most fun player in the draft. And should we be talking about him more? So why aren't we talking about him more Kyle man? I think it's, we've talked about this on the ringer NBA show on every show. It's just interesting how, and I was telling you as like, I can't think of many instances over history, over my time following the draft where there like was a clear cut. Like Rob Dillingham is unequivocally the most talented advantage

creator in the draft. He's probably the most talented, just pure shot creator in the draft. He's the most talented handler. He gets into the bat into the, and the big thing, but big difference between him and Reed is Reed is very kind of, he doesn't get really low and wide with his dribble. Rob is very low and wide with his dribble. And you mentioned Jamal Crawford. It's kind of, to me, the thing is like, if we know those things are true, what's stopping us? Well, it's like, well true what's stopping us well it's like well what's stopping us what stopped malik monk from being a primary option on an nba team what stopped lou williams or jamal crawford like those guys even today we talked about him like well who would win in the one-on-one competition you know they're like well jamal crawford would have been a problem

blah blah blah but it's like i think the worry with him is the defense. Similar. He's very small. He's very skinny. I think he weighed 170 pounds. He would just kind of come and go. He could be a little flighty at times and commit really, really timely bad fouls. He was horrible about that. I was told that was one of the big reasons they didn't keep him in the starting lineup as much. He just could be a little bit erratic. But I agree with you.

So you don't think his coaching at Donda Academy really established a good foundation? That's the other thing. Kevin, you can speak to this from your intel stuff. Tate loves to talk about this. That's the other thing is the intel. I almost forgot about that. He went to the Kanye school? Yeah, he literally went to Kanye school.

Decision-making negative. Yeah. forgot about that he went to the kanye school yeah he literally went to kanye school decision making negative uh yeah so it's crazy like he he really does have a lot of that i mean i brought up the garland thing over and over again mainly it's just sort of like a engine for a discussion of like why is it that like i think he's a better at like he's a pretty explosive athlete there were times where he did like windmills like he's he's like a physical finisher around the basket he's very quick and poppy like what is it about why were we so why do we believe in darius garland so much and have skepticism in rob dillingham like it's just he's like a first ballot like youtube like hall of fame prospect. He's so skilled. KFC just goes by anybody whenever he wants. Finishes around him.

Kyrie's the best at this, but there's definitely some Kyrie stuff with both hands. Has this crazy fun jump shot where he just kicks his right foot out for no reason. And it's kind of his trademark. And I do feel like

I could just see him becoming a thing and then people imitating it. And to me, the worst case scenario, Malik Monk has more size than him. And not that he's a great defender either, but at least he's taller. So this kid, worst case scenario, is probably a six man, but seems like an instant offense guy. And if it's in this draft where it's like, all right, I'm the Spurs and I'm picking eighth and I could get this guy who just comes into games and swings games for six minutes of a quarter.

That sounds fantastic in a draft like this. Where do you stand on them? I got a dealing him eight, a 10th of my board. So I'd be fine with him at eight. I think Dillingham has that upside. If he adds,'t know he waited at 164 you know so once you let's get this guy cheeseburger really light so if he gets up he's been hurt he's been hurt but you think maybe gain weight but yeah yeah but if he gets it up to 175 180 at some point and he's able to

you know be surrounded by lengthy wing defenders where he's not a complete liability on defense i think he offers enough on offense i mean like you said like what's the difference between him and you know shepherd like kyle outlined it all and i think the other thing is the passing like dillingham with after he went to donda academy he went with to overtime elite and there he was score, score, score, score, score. Like he's not much of a passer at all, more of a ball hog there. He passed more with Kentucky, but he doesn't have that natural feel, quick decision-making that Shepard has. So Dillingham is more your bucket getter, your spark plug. And I like him for that. I do like Dillingham, but with the lack of size and the lack of great feel as a passer or defense, he's

10 on my board, not any higher than that. He goes against a lot of my instincts, Kyle. Like I'm really fighting it off. It's, it's the same reason I didn't like Isaiah Collier from the get go. I just don't usually like players like that, but there's some sort of flair with him that just feels a little different. Like if you're going to say what rookie in this draft in, in the rookie season is a threat to have like a 40 point game. Oh, easy. That's a given.

I don't even think, is there anybody else you would even, he might hit a 50. He might hit a 50. Yeah. Connect can go on. We can talk about him, but like dealing him is going to score. He's going to have those nights. I mean, if you think about like the Jalen Green kind of body type of like Dillingham does all that stuff, but he's more skilled and efficient in every single way. Like it's the same elastic-y kind of small guard thing.

But he did play pretty well with others. That's the other thing. They would have these three guard lineups this past year where it was all pass, dribble, shoot, movement, kind of quick guards. And he was not selfish. Like at any point, I never thought to myself, there were times where he took one here, here or there, but like Cal supposedly gave him two a half. That's what he, but I mean, he was efficient, man. I mean, like spot up three pointers, 54.5 as a pick and roll jump shooter from three, he was 43% from three on 28 shots. But I mean, he can really shoot it. You know,

we talk, I feel like sometimes we say the shot maker thing as a way to like downplay, maybe how skilled they are, but, um, he can really shoot it. Like, uh, yeah, it would not surprise me at all. We're going to have nights, this upcoming like podcast cycle where we're like, Jesus, Rob Dillingham. And we'll question ourselves. I think the playoffs is a whole other thing, but yeah, he yeah, he's just, if he were a little bigger, man, I think he'd be, would you say so, Kevin? I mean, if he were 6'4", 6'5". Oh, he'd be number one.

He'd probably be number one. It's going to start in Vegas in Summer League. That's where it's going to begin with the Rob Dillingham vibe because he's going to have some big nights. I'm already on Redfin looking at condos in Rob Dillingham Island. One thing about both of those Kentucky guards that really stood out to me watching all this stuff is both of them really know how to use picks already.

I got a comment on that. In the college game, it's just pretty rare. It's just something that jumps out because that's all the pro game is. Somebody's coming out. You're trying to get mismatches. And it seems like both those guys know how to do that. So I was thinking either of them on Houston next year with the kind of team that they clearly want

to be competitive and they're going to be in real games. Either of those guys, I think, could help them off the bench. What were you going to say, Kyle? I was just going to say, you noticed that and I think it says something about their skill because this past year the bigs that they were playing with were some of the most incompetent screeners bad timing couldn't do any like they even the guys that could do something with it would just make take stupid angles like it was the most maddening

thing to watch from a basketball and from a rooting perspective so if you think about like a Dillingham with like let's say Miami gets crazy and they're just like, we want to just go get this guy. You were talking about like, maybe there's not a star play for some of these teams that have something going and they're like, let's just go try to get this guy. Like if he's playing with like a bam or somebody that can like lay the wood or like the way Monk plays with Sabonis, uh, it's going to be interesting to

see because they were playing. It was frustrating to watch a lot of the year. Wasn't this a little like what was happening with Hero in that draft too? Where people are like, oh, that guy can score man. Yeah. And then he fell. He had better bigs. Yeah.

Yeah. KOC. Oklahoma City is at 12. This is going to be a weird draft with some mistakes. And it just feels like we're heading toward somebody sliding to OKC at either 12 or maybe they look at Utah. The guy's there at 10 and they move up. They do what they did last year to get Wallace. Who's your slide guy?

Because to me, it's either Dillingham or Holland. I could just see both of those guys going five spots later than they should, but Dillingham especially. I feel like he's going to be gettable in the 10 to 14 range. And Rossella said this when we were doing the pod the other day about stuff OKC needed. It would be fun for them to have just some heat check guard off the bench like Dillingham, right? Like they just coming off the bench with Dillingham and Wallace. And they're like, watch this. And then they're just, you know, just building the offense around four minutes. But who's your slide guy?

Who do you think is going to fall? I mean, I think Dillingham and Hollandlland like you mentioned two of them for sure i think if you're talking about some of the top guys you know top five-ish guys buzellus maybe you know depending on how the board falls i mean he's still in the hawks worked him out on sunday for number one so we'll see their clinging dependent on the way the board falls like if atlanta did go resa shea if sar did go to to the Wizards if Shepard went three to the Rockets and then if four was Buzellis and five ended up not being Klingon like it's a lot of those teams five six seven see I disagree on that because I think this I'm not saying the 12 but to seven like no but I think NFL QB rules are going to apply with Klingon, where he's such a commodity for this draft with certain teams that I think if he goes maybe to five, that becomes a trade-off at that point.

Isn't that falling though? But that's what I mean. For OKC, that is a trade-off opportunity, right? Or Memphis. Memphis would be the other one. Because that rumor that's been going around the last couple days about Marcus Smart and number nine for number three, that's stupid. Why would Memphis do that?

They didn't offer it. It's not going to be offered. That's a dumb trade. They're going to trade Marcus Smart to move up six spots? Not happening. I said that to Verno just to make sure he doesn't lose sleep before the night of the draft. I looked into it and let him know that

Marcus Smart and No. 9 are not going to the Rockets. That stupid Pistons team that basically has guys at every position but needs everything, if they could move back from 5-12 and pick up OKC stuff, and then

OKC gets clinging out of it, that's something I could see happening. I also think Memphis has extra picks to trade, yeah. And then OKC gets clinging out of it. That's something I could see happening. I also think Memphis has extra picks to trade, too. Detroit to me seems like the swing team, and Charlotte's the other one. Charlotte's at six. They kind of need every... Brandon Miller is probably the

only keeper on the team that you'd feel great about. Do you guys feel like Lomelo is a steadfast, unquestionable keeper at this point? Because I don't. I mean, what are you going to give him up for, though? That's my only question. My point is having LaMelo wouldn't stop me

from taking Rob Dillingham if he was there at six. You know what I mean? I wouldn't take another small forward because I like Brandon Miller. He's a guy. I don't love the Dillingham Melo balance, but I do love.... He's a guy. I don't love the Dillingham-Mellow balance, but I do love... It'd be a disaster.

I do, but I do... Entertaining. I do really love the Shepard-Lamello balance, though. You know, with those two guys, high IQ guys, passers, connectors, within without the ball. And with Charlotte, I've heard that their team, like, you know, maybe they trade down,

but there could be a trade-up team as well. And if they were trading up for Shepard, I think that'd be the guy I'd want to move up for if I'm the Hornets to two or three. I mean, I'd love to have him because he could work with Lamello if Lamello continues extending like he did his last 10 or so games of last season before he went out and got hurt. And if not, well, guess what? Shepard's kind of insurance for LaMelo at the same time he he checks both of those boxes so I think for Charlotte that'd be my dream target is Reed Shepard and if not him maybe Devin Carter somebody like that Stefan Castle I think there's like two Castle and Miller together would be outrageous yeah So here's the thing with Charlotte, Kyle. Because Charlotte has,

I wouldn't say they've been competent for this entire century. New ownership. I would say pick a time when they were. You might be faster. They hit the Brandon Miller pick. Yeah. And the Charles Lee coach hire,

the Celtics love Charles Lee. Like that guy's going to be a good coach. The Celtics could not have been more bummed out that he got a head coaching job, but we're all so excited about it. But that whole process of how they landed on him, they identified him fast. They grabbed him. They got him. Charlotte might actually know what they're doing.

So I think the old version of Charlotte probably takes Rob Dillingham and then him and LaBello are feuding by game 40. This version, I'm kind of excited to see what they do for that. Did you who did you have as your slide guy, Kyle? I think I mean, I think Dillingham is going to slide for sure. I don't you know, you mentioned you mentioned Klingon. Somebody is going to grab him. I could see Boozell is falling.

Me too. Among those guys. Just just not necessarily because people just sometimes guys just fall because not because they were i guess that's not even true but i mean if you're looking at like detroit and charlotte i just think they're both in kind of a situation where you're like okay the rebuilds have been bad especially with detroit they have new leadership charlotte new ownership ship you're kind of like you can either go like, we're going to rip this out root and stem.

For me, if I was Charlotte, I think Mark Williams is worth keeping around. I think they've got a couple things to keep around. I like Mark Williams. Yeah, I think he'll work. But I just think they run into an issue too where it's like, if you keep drafting these dribble pull-up guys who don't put a lot of pressure on the rim, like LaMelo and Reed and Miller would be really fun.

But I just think you'd have to, A, have really, really good defensive front court on the rim. Lomelo and Reed and Miller would be really fun, but I just think you'd have to, A, have really, really good defensive frontcourt on the other end, and you'd have to have... I like... They need culture reset, too. I think both of those teams do. The UConn guys. You know what would be a good move? KOC, you know what would be a good move? They take

Castle at six, which I don't even think he'll be there, but if they could get him. And then they're like, Castle and Miller, this is our version of Brown and Tatum. We're going to build around these guys. Just good message. Brown and Tatum just won the title. We'd like to emulate the Boston Celtics, our 2024 world champions. This is a good start for us. Yeah, I'm with you. They would have taken the Rando Ballcrater. All right, let's talk about the most fun guy in the draft.

Not from a basketball standpoint, but just from a where the fuck is he going to go standpoint. Zach Eadie. You could tell me he goes ninth. You could tell me he goes 25th. I'm prepared for anything. I'm not going to have a lot of hardcore draft takes, but this one I'm going to etch in stone for you guys. I think Zach Eady is a rotation guy in the

NBA. And I think he should be a top 15 pick. Let's go. Yeah, Bill. And I think he will absolutely be able to play in a playoff series. I just think like OKC at number 12 would be so much fun if that was the location for him where, look, let's say he's playing 14 minutes a game, but it's just like he's a just let's get weird guy where it's like, oh, we're doing this. Oh, now look at this. And you think about what the playoffs we just watched. There's all these situations where sometimes teams are too small, like the Knicks. They lose Mitchell Robinson. All of a sudden, they're playing precious at center. Well, guess what? You're not going to be able to do that against Zach Eadie. And maybe you'll torch him on the other end and you'll put

him in screens and all that stuff. But there's just a lot to like with the dude. He produced at a crazy level. I even like the fact that he's a good free throw shooter. I like the fact that at the end of games, you can put him in games and just inbound it to him and he'll get fouled and he'll make both free throws. He's something. If he's a seventh man, eighth man on a playoff team, that's pretty great in a shitty draft. So I'm pro Zach Eady. I do not think he should go past 15. And honestly, if he's there at 12, I wouldn't be surprised to vote Casey Tuchum. That is my Zach Eady speech. What do you think, Kyle, man?

I've been, I went on a Thunder podcast and said this, that like, I think there's been a swell of people supporting this idea. Because, yeah, because I think if you're Oklahoma City, I don't think that you're missing peace. They traded for Caruso, but I don't think that you're missing peace you know and they traded for gruesome but i don't think that you're missing peace to like shore up that like four three spot where you need some more size to like guard those bigger forwards

i don't think that you're gonna that guy's not in the draft that well i don't think that you should even even if you were i don't think that you should add another guy on the same timeline as that that core like i think that like edD. is just interesting because I don't think that it would compromise the way that they play with their five-out style, the main thing they do. So I wouldn't think about it that way. I would just think about it like, let's say they're in a playoff series against the Suns, and in comes the second unit.

And you're like, okay, I don't know who's even going to be there. Kevin, who's going to be their backup five next year it's not going to be somebody right somebody bad somebody and then you're just like okay well our guy just picked up three or four fouls because ed just he's just a machine he's super physical he i told you he shoots like 70 on that like righty hook and that was like all of his offense you can get a little turned off by like how simple it is but i think that like he gets the line. He's a foul machine. He catches lobs.

I just think he's an interesting novel thing to have on your bench because I can't really think of a comparison. I can't think of a guy that was that big and that had that much of an effective way that he scores in the past. I don't know. Can you all think of a big that was similar to him that was that effective? You know what I thought of? In Dallas, the Clippers went away from this in the Dallas series, but one of the things they tried to do early in the series was they had Zubats and they were like,

we think Zubats can bully ball Gafford and Lively. And they would go to him and he was actually scoring in them in the low post. And I was watching it going, man, nobody does this anymore. And just says, fuck you. We're going to post up our center and try to, Dallas tried to do this with Gafford against Tatum a couple of times. But for the most part, you just think about the finals,

how many teams went small or tried to get away with, you know, like trying to play five out like the Celtics did or try to cheat five, 10 minute stretches. And I just don't think you're going to be able to do that against Edie. Like whether he's not going to, I don't think he's going to be an all NBA guy. I don't think you're going to be able to do that against Edie. I don't think he's going to be

an all-NBA guy. I don't think he's going to be an all-star. But I think he's going to be a fucking bitch against certain teams. I think he's going to be really hard to guard. Where do you stand, KOC? Minutes after OKC got eliminated, I posted how they should draft Zach Edie. We're all buying a condo

together on Zach Edie. I already purchased multiple, honestly. If Edie goes to OKC, I've been, okay. So, so we're all buying a condo together and Zach needy. I mean, I already purchased multiple, honestly. I mean, I think if he goes, okay, see, I think he has a chance to be one of the five best guys from this draft class. And it's because of Memphis. I don't think Memphis is going to take Edie. I think Memphis wants to play fast. I don't think they want, I think they want maybe more of like a clinging space. They want to aware, even for that matter to Kaleo where it'd be interesting there.

And so would Klingon if they trade up. But Edie for OKC specifically and other teams, too. But with the Thunder, like if he's their change of pace guy for 15 minutes a game in some series and maybe 30 minutes a game in some other series. Because the thing with Edie is even though he's massive, he's durable. He played almost every minute in the tournament for Purdue allue all the way to the title game he is relentless he has great energy and the thing people talk about with his defense i i mentioned this play all the time but the block he had on dalton connect the end of the purdue tennessee game where he just outstretched his arm and made this nasty block on Connect going for an extension layup.

Purdue had Eadie avoid fouls. They wanted him just to use his sheer size to be a deterrent around the rim. They didn't want him going for blocks. They didn't want him getting into foul trouble because if he was, they're dead. Okay? So that moment against Connect, I think, serves as an example of what he could be if he has Chet Holmgren on the wing next to him if he's on the lakers and anthony davis is next to him if it's the heat with bam at a bio out there

if it's a too big system it's another one that i really like for him yeah i think i think ed could be nasty and like the offense that he brings and also like you said bill good three good free throw shooter he's got touch as you said kyle 70% or whatever it is on that right hook shot. He has touch, and there's a lot of people that believe he can develop like a Brooke Lopez-esque 34%, 35% spot-out three-point shot. And if that happens with Eadie, well, that changes everything with the way we talk about him as a future pro in the NBA. He's also a funny Philadelphia 76ers pick at 16 too.

No break. Just like Embiid insurance, but also like when Embiid's out, this guy comes in. That's interesting. I hadn't thought about that one before. I wonder if Sacramento 13, now they have the same issues as Memphis where they want to play fast. They want to play a little, you know, spread, shoot, run and gun and all that. But that would also be a fun guy for them.

I just think, I think he'd be fun for a lot of these teams where, you know, think about like if Miami takes him. Now the Celtics are playing Miami. Poor Zingas is out. He hasn't recovered from, you know, his injury and they're playing like Luke Cornett. And it's like, oh, Zach Eadie's in.

Oh my God, he's torching Luke Cornett. It's like, oh, Zach Eadie's in. Oh my God, he's torching Luke Cornett. It's like, Jesus, he just scored eight points in two minutes. I like that he took a lot of shit as a college player too. I feel like he comes in the NBA with thick skin, which some of these dudes, like the guys from Kentucky, they were in college basketball for like five minutes

and they're in the draft. Zach Eadie was in there for a while playing in big games in front of big crowds with a spotlight on him. So yeah, I'm kind of in on him. What do you do about Topich coming off the torn ACL where it's like, on the one hand, there's value for him. And on the other hand, you don't have a guy for a year. And then his first year he's coming off a knee surgery. So maybe you lose two years, but he's somebody that people thought could potentially maybe you lose two years but he's somebody that people thought could potentially be a top eight pick what's what's the right range for him kyle uh i think that he's a fair bet like if you're you know this has happened before where

guys coming to people get a little turned off well they've been turned off by the shooting i mean that's the thing like he hasn't been a consistent pull-up shooter in the way that you would like which would like unlock a lot of his stuff uh i think in the like 10 to 15 range i think he'd be a fair bet because he's in the like or maybe even higher i mean if it depended on your belief and his because among like the the pick and roll playmakers in the draft i have him as like the top three like he's right in there like he's his spatial sense like and he's young like you know people talk about him in juristic a whole lot nicola jurassic a lot and he's he's a year younger than him and he just made kevin and i talked about on our show that like he knows how to make every pass like skip

passes roller passes uh and he was playing with grown men so i think you know if you're looking for somebody who's just like you know a second side catch it and like run another pick and roll uh his level of decision making is is really high, I think. But the shooting's the thing, I think. Depending on... I think your willingness to move higher is probably driven by that. And it's also, KOC, a fun tank pick.

Right? If you're Portland at 14, it's like, yeah, let's take the guy who can't play for a year anyway. We want to suck next year. They pre-injured... Yeah, he's pre-injured. He won't... It's like, yeah, let's take the guy who can't play for a year anyway. We want to suck next year. They pre-injured. Yeah, he's pre-injured. He won't. It's like the old Philly move where it's like they're in the process.

So they're just drafting dudes who probably can't play for them. Where do you have them, KFC? I have them at 15 on my board in part because the injury knocking him down a bit. And like Kyle said, the shooting, he shot 30% from three this past season. He's like a good bet i think to figure it out as a shooter he's an 80 plus percent guy from the free throw range he's got good touch on you know little floater shots near the rim but he's stiff like i think mechanically he needs to change his shot i don't think it's a matter of just like getting stronger or getting confidence

or whatever that's you know that those qualities i think it's more about he needs to change his mechanics a bit from three-point range i could I could I could splash a little if you wanted to be confident he has awesome rhythm as a ball handler we talked about this earlier in the year that like he just has a nice kind of like movement to the like you said he's he is stiff and like when he gets into a shot but when you move like that I think you can be coached to sort of like harness sort of like the energy in the way that you move. Like, he's not shooting

from sort of like this mechanical stiff way. Like, I think that his handle can flow into a nice shot. Like, I think it's workable in that way. I agree with that. Have you heard

his Andre the Giant voice? Oh, my God, yeah. He's got like the deepest NBA draft voice in like 10 years. He's like, does that move his stock up, Bill? Up three spots, I think, right? He's got the deepest NBA draft voice in 10 years. He's like, bro, Hulk Hogan. Does that move his stock up, Bill?

Up three spots, I think. I like it. Oh, Hulk Hogan. How are you? All right, guys. Before we wrap, it's time for the most exciting moment of the podcast. As you know, the Celtics have the 30th pick. And as you know, I dive into college basketball.

I dive into this whole draft process only having watched NCAA tournament games and YouTube. And yet I have a guy that I want for the Celtics at number 30 and he might not be there, but I, so I have a backup pick too. I've hinted at you guys with you guys who I wanted here. So it's not gonna be too surprising,

but, uh, our winner is Baylor Shireman. who I wanted here. It's not going to be too surprising. Our winner is Baylor Shireman. That's who I wanted, number 30. Just a shooter. I could see him on the team. I think he'd fit in from a chemistry standpoint.

Gives us a little Sam Houser insurance down the road if Sam Houser leaves. Maybe he could come in and just get some three-point buckets for us. But he's older. I want the Celtics to take an older guy who could act because with the second apron thing, they're going to be freaking playing the trainer as the ninth man. They're going to have no money for anybody. He's 23.7 years old, according to the Ringer Draft Guide. Sounds great. He's almost in his mid-20s. He's approaching his prime. And that's my pick. So when we get to the early 20s,

I'm going to be on Baylor-Sherman watch, hoping nobody takes him. KOC, your thoughts? I think Sherman would be a great fit at 30. He makes perfect sense for the Celtics if he makes it there. I'm interested in why you prefer an older guy instead of an upside swing at 30 when the rotation is already set for at least next season.

Doesn't part of you want to take an 18- or 19-year-old guy that in two years? No. The answer is no. Put him on the main Celtics. There's a dynasty in the main Celtics right now. Here's the track record with that, and here's why that doesn't work.

Those guys are not going to play for the first two years of their career, right? So even by the time they start playing, it's now year three, maybe year four, and the guy's 22, 23. You have no idea if he's good because you've had no arc with him because he's been buried just playing G League.

And then you have to decide on his second contract. And you're like, I've seen this guy play never. I think what Miami did with Jaquez, in G League, and then you have to decide on his second contract. You're like, I've seen this guy play never. I think what Miami did with Jaquez, that's the direction. If you're a really good team, I think you have to think that way. You have to look at these guys, 22, 23, 24. I'm sure the Golden State, the fact that they were able to get guys last year, a little different example, but guys who could play right away for the team they had made sense.

Whereas the Lakers took project guys who couldn't get on the floor, and if they had to do it over again, they obviously would have taken Hawkeyes. But I went for this. Denver too. Christian Brown, even last year. Julian Strother, even though he didn't play much. Jalen Pickett and Hunter Tyson, all older guys. I want older guys,

so that's my first pick. Kyle, you have any Baylor thoughts before I move on? I was going to say, you didn't exactly hint at it as much as outright endorsement. It was sort of, didn't you have like exclamation points? He jumped out immediately. KOC had in the draft guide shades of big Brandon Podzemski.

That sounds great. I'm all in on that. My other one, this is a deep cut. And weirdly, he was floating around on NBA draft Twitter yesterday because there was this video of him breaking down plays. But I like the, I like the Marquette

kind of forward center guy. Also Iguodaro. He is 21.9 years old. KFC gave him the shades of Al Horford, even though he had him as the 47th ranked guy in a terrible draft. Apologies to Al.

No, that's for, I should change it to average Al Horford. You need an adjective in there. But this is another guy that makes sense with the way the league is, right? He's a big guy and everybody's like, he's a really good passer. Well, it's like, well, what do big guys do on teams like this? They're 25, 20 feet from the lane. They're setting screens and they're just trying to find people.

Derek Lively style. And I think that would be a fun one too is 32 early for him it probably is he's funny he's he's fun there's some caveats like he's a little skinny he's not quite you want him to be like a capella type like if he were a little bigger you'd feel better about playing small with him but like if he gets up against some legit bigs that are putting him in the basket, it could be an issue. I was going to say there are a couple of – Devin Carter won't be there, obviously.

Harrison Ingram is a guy from North Carolina that I like a lot that is extremely toolsy, that can hit shots that I think if he worked on his body could adjust to the way the Celtics play. Kevin knows what's getting ready to come next. Kevin McCullough, my guy from Kansas, is the guy. He's been one of my favorite players in the draft. I think he owes me a paycheck

at this point. I've mentioned him so many times. But he's a weird one because he had the injury and he just might go, what, 12, 15 spots later than he should have. I studied his tapes too.

I was just trying to figure out guys who could fit with the team. I think in 2008, they would have taken Isaiah Collar and been like, I can't believe he fell to 30, and then he's just getting waived in two years. Is there anybody else, KOC? Can I give you one young guy, one teenage prospect to think about? Like an 18-year-old, 19-year-old? Yeah, French prospect.

Played this last season in Germany. Pacome.da. They worked him out the morning after they won the championship. Pacome is a guy who fits in terms of he can dribble, he can shoot, he can pass. He has defensive versatility with a 6'9 wingspan. So even though Pacome is younger, he's younger, he's 18 years old right now. He's not going to play right away if there's a stash if yes if there's one young guy that i think makes sense for boston at number 30

it'd be him i would agree taking the denver golden state route with an older guy is the preferable path considering all the implications with the second apram that that is the route but if they go young i think pacom the da is the guy they should really think about at number 30 my last thing my last draft take which you've heard before so i saved it for the end because it's boring but the audience hasn't really heard it i'm i'm all in on jared mccain yeah and he's gonna probably fall to miami at number 15 and people are going to be like, oh, that's a good pick. And I'm just going to fucking start breaking shit. I'm going to be so mad if Miami takes him. And then I'm going to be equally mad if Philadelphia takes him.

I don't want him to go to Miami or Philadelphia because Jared McCain is going to be good. I will go on the record with that. You can take this video, you can cut it, you can throw it back in my face four years from now. I'm going to be right. Jared McCain, that guy has been a winner his entire life. He's a winning basketball player. He's going to just figure it out and be a good guard who will be on good teams. And you watch. That's my Jared McCain case. I love Jared McCain.

Did you listen to my interview with him? That helped win me over even more than I already won over. He's so lovable. Dude has it, man. He's been a leading man for a while. And he played out here and I got to watch him in LA a bunch and I just think that dude has it. And I was thinking about him for Utah

at 10. Next to Keontae George in the backcourt. That's interesting. Yeah, and just like he's, even though he's young, he'll eventually be like the adult. He's just, he's going to be a good pro. He knows what to do and how to act and how to, and he's a guy. Trent Perry's like this too, who's going to college this year.

But these guys who know how to get everyone else involved and then take over in the last four minutes, like he knows how to do that. So, all right. Contractually, I have to ask you where you think Brian is going to get drafted before we go. Where do you think Kyle? I mean, it seems like 55. Are the Suns going to try to make a play

to get involved in this, to get aggressive and maybe become more involved than they actually are? I mean, it seems like 55. Even though it's consensus, it feels like the safe bet. What do you think, Kelsey? I think I'll be conservative here and say Lakers are 55. I think he goes in the 30s, and I think it's by a team that feels like they can bluff the Lakers

and they're thinking they're going to take them trying to get assets from him and the Lakers will panic because this has clearly all been preordained. That's my prediction. Honestly, my favorite idea is your bet recently. The Celtics. The Celtics at 30. my prediction honestly my favorite idea is is is your bit recently the celtics celtics just as a trade asset yeah so i like that idea more last week until i was able to finally really be able to dive into the draft i was like man we might actually get somebody who could be a 10th man at number 30 but i do think as a trade asset um you know, Priscilla laid out some of that rich Paul interview the other day where he's

like, if we wanted him to take them at 17, we would just tell the Lakers take them at 17. It's like, Whoa. Okay. Yeah. I think he goes in the thirties by a team that doesn't really want the pick

and just feels like they can get something. Pacers have three second round draft picks. They draft 36. I think they'd be a good candidate for exactly what you're talking about. Yeah. All right. So you guys, you're covering this on a ringer on Bay draft show tomorrow night. Yes, sir.

Yeah. All right. Great. Good to see both of you draft time. Wacky, fun, stupid drafts. I think I like that more than a dress that makes sense. KOC Kyle. thanks for coming on. What does possible sound like for your business?

It's having the spend to powers your scale with no preset spending limit. More cash on hand to grow your business with up to 55 interest-free days. And the ability to reach further with access to over 1,400 airport lounges worldwide. Redefine possible with Business Platinum. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum.

Get to know yourself and your roots better in 2024 with Ancestry DNA. Want to know where your family comes from in northern France? Maybe you'd like to see how your genes influence certain traits like diet, fitness, and allergies. There's so much of you and your heritage to discover. Don't wait. Ancestry DNA kits are on sale now for a limited time. Visit Ancestry.ca for details. Terms apply. Ariel

Hawani is here. He is my favorite voice in the UFC. He hosts the Ringer MMA show with Pizzi and Chuck. Chuck, who I expected to see in the NBA Finals, but his team didn't show up. Dallas did, the Celtics won.

You gave me a begrudging congratulations before we hopped on. Yeah, it was very sincere. I didn't mean it one bit. By the way, the drought is finally over. I was expecting to come on here and celebrate the Canadian Stanley Cup drought being over. Unfortunately, Florida and their four fans

are very happy today. Congratulations to them. But the Helwani ban on the BS pod is finally over. I mean, it's been like an eight-month thing. Are we beefing or what? What are you talking about? You were on like two months ago. It's been, I think it's my first appearance

in 2024. Basketball, basketball, basketball. No, that's not true. You were on in the spring. Wait, can we talk about the drought for a second? You got to explain to me the rules of Canada. Yes. Where now that it's been

31 years since you had a team in the Stanley Cup Finals to actually win, now Canada gets to claim all the teams? Hell yeah. Well, it depends on who you're asking. If you're asking a Flames fan, they're ecstatic. Flames fans are happier than Florida Panthers fans today because they hate the Oilers. If you ask Canucks fans, they're 50- even I really think Jets fans, they were all rooting for the Oilers. We want this to end.

We have an affinity for the Oilers, especially kids of my generation, 80s, Gretzky, Messier, Yari Curry, Grand Fury, et cetera. So I wanted to see them win. And it's just to me, look, the Panthers are a nice story. They've had their chances before, 30 years. Paul Maurice is a great guy, all that stuff. But it just feels like it means so much more to not only the city, the province, and the country than the city, the state, and the country, if you compare it to Florida. So you think it means more to Canada

than Sunrise, Florida? Yeah, I'd say it means more to Canada than the US. It means more to Alberta than Florida. And it definitely means more to Edmonton than Sunrise. Florida has three cups now since Canada has won their last cup, which is just a complete outrage. I went on the record four weeks ago. I hate the Florida Panthers. I hate both Florida hockey teams. I'm not saying it's rational. I'm a sports fan. You're allowed to sports hate different things. We certainly see it in UFC. I hate the Florida NHL teams and I root against them. And yet I had a Celtics Panthers Stanley Cup NBA Finals series bet.

That once the Celtics won, it's like, well, that's done. And then all of a sudden the Oilers come roaring back and actually bet on the Oilers in game six as a hedge, wrote out the Panthers game seven. So I was like kind of rooting for both sides of it. And hockey's just such a root canal at all times. And if you're the Oilers, and Katie Baker wrote a great piece about the ringer for today, you just, if you're an Oilers fan and maybe an extended Canada fan, you just spend the rest of the summer thinking about McDavid in front of the net with like six minutes left in

the split second where it's like a hundred times out of a hundred. He scores on that. Uh, the defensive makes a good play. He doesn't get it done. And then they just

kind of left those guys on the ice for the entire third pair. I've never seen anything like it. Those guys were dead by the end. I mean, there was one

point with like a minute left for McDavid just kind of like fell over. Um, I felt for them. I really thought the Panthers were broken. I really did think that they were broken, you know, being up three, nothing in the way that they were losing. And then that trip, by the way, like Florida to Edmonton back and forth, that's exhausting in its own right. You

keep having to do it after you're losing these heartbreakers up three nil or three, nothing. I'm in the soccer mode right now. Three nil. Sorry about that. Wow. I liked it. That was embarrassing. But you know, the drought continues and perhaps, perhaps it's the St. Patrick curse. Some have called it, uh, for Patrick Wobb back in 1993, the last one to win it all. Or perhaps it just has to be the Habs, um, who for the longest time were the winningest team in, in, in sports. Maybe they have to be the ones to break it. Although they aren't looking very good at the moment. Yeah, that's the craziest thing to me because when I was growing up,

the Canadians just beat the Bruins every year back when I liked hockey as much as the other sports. And the Canadians, people think it would be the Yankees for Boston fans. It was the Canadians. And they just, every year, year after year, beat us and they felt insurmountable. And this really lasted all the way through

past when I graduated college through 93, when they beat Gretzky, when everybody in the world was like, Gretzky is going to win this one. This is going to be so great. And the Habs were like, hold on. And then that was it. And the fact that, forget the Canada part, just that Montreal hasn't won in 31 years is just insane. Because this was basically the Yankees slash Celtics of the NHL forever. And it's a double generation drought now. I know you're enjoying this, but don't forget NBA champion 2019. Very nice. About to medal in men's basketball at the Olympics.

Very nice. Back-to-back Blue Jays titles once upon a time. Yep, right after. I mean, it was 92, 93, so at the same time. And, you know, our soccer team is doing much better these days. So perhaps just like the balance of power is shifting. Maybe we're not just a hockey country anymore.

Because I don't know if you saw the Team Canada roster. I mean, best backcourt in the world. You know I saw it. I tweeted about it. And you're missing two guys. And even without missing the two guys, like, Shaden Sharp's not playing and somebody else isn't playing

that could have made the team. Yeah, yeah. Benedict, yeah. Whatever. We don't need him. It's all good. It'll be good. You have a nice little small ball lineup. Wiggins is back in the good graces of Team Canada. No one expected that. We got Jamal Murray signing up.

Don't tell Chuck this. Nembhard, the hottest, the hottest. Nembhard, who broke my heart as a Knicks fan. But don't tell Chuck this. I was extremely happy that the Nuggets got balanced because I just, I felt like that, you know, increased our chances of getting Murray to, they would have gone straight to like late June.

Maybe he, you know, he says, no, thanks. So this is going to be great. I can't wait for Canada-US. Well, the other thing that happened was the US was doing this whole, we want people in their primes. We want this switchable athletic team. And then Embiid decided to play. LeBron decided to play. Kawhi, who the hell knows with him, decided to play.

So now they have this old generation team with Kawhi, KD, LeBron, Curry. So now you have to cater to all KD, LeBron, Curry. So now you have to cater to all those guys, but also try to win. And who do you win with? Who's your five? How do you balance that? So I think there's more questions now.

Canada's just sitting there with the Murray, SGA, Nembhard. They could go super small. Oh, yeah. Oh, you're getting me so excited. Just like new Olenek to space. It could be pretty good. You're making my palms sweaty. I don't know if you're a soccer fan, but what we're seeing right now with England at the Euro, all these all-stars not knowing how to play together, that's what's going to happen to the US come a month or so from now in Paris.

So mark my words. Well, the most shocking thing to me is that UFC is now my third favorite sport. And I think a lot of it's because of my son, because we just get all the events because we watch everything. But it's football and basketball for me. And baseball used to be tied for the top three, and then it fell to third. And now it's like, I just watched my first Red Sox game yesterday because that Mookie Betts trade murdered me. But UFC, I've been really in. And we have a lot to discuss. You're texting me about UFC Saudi Arabia on a Saturday afternoon.

Yeah, I watch all, I honestly watch all of it. You're giving me Ikram Aliskarov hot takes. I lost money. I lost money this week on a couple of bets. Whitaker, you told me to stay away from Whitaker. I did not. All right, let's start here. McGregor Floyd was seven years ago.

Literally seven years ago. Literally seven years ago. It was July 2017. Or August. McGregor's three and four since December 2015. He's won one UFC fight since 2016. He turns 36 in July. I don't know how much abuse he's put on his body the last 10 years.

And he was supposed to be the headliner of this fight that you and I have talked about multiple times in this pod. And now it doesn't happen. When can we just give up on McGregor? Are we there? No, not yet. No. I mean, he was, he was almost there.

He was two weeks away. He broke his toe. He has the photos to prove it. Now, could you, can you get into the debate of, all right, you know, would the old McGregor have fought? Maybe, who knows? Has he fought injured before and has it worked out for him? Yes. Has he fought injured before and has it not worked out for him? Yes. So he was in a training camp. He had a fight signed. It was right there. We were at the, I don't know, the 10 yard line. Unfortunately, he got hurt and

these things do happen. And it's actually quite shocking that they don't happen more often, given all the abuse that they put their bodies through when they're preparing for these fights. I still think he has at least a couple left in him. I think he wants to prove people wrong. I think we'll see him again. I actually think we'll see him again this year. The question is when they're kind of this year. Yeah, yeah. They're in this fight right now. Like this is this is the fascinating thing. It's always this constant tug of war with the UFC and Conor McGregor because they feel like they gave him too much power in 2016, 2017. And now they're trying to show everyone like, hey, this is never going to happen again. And with you, Conor, we are the boss. We are the promoter. And so he and his team are saying, put me in in August. put me in September max. Well, here's the problem. The next pay-per-view after this one is in Manchester. It's already booked. The next one after that is in Perth. They're not going to send them to Perth. They already have a main event. It's Israel, Destinia and Drakis. 305 is a good main event.

The next one after that is the sphere, which he's a, he's a perfect candidate for, but they don't want to do them on the sphere. They're doing a Mexican Independence Day theme and it's already kind of laid out already. The next one after that is Utah. They're not sending him to Utah. Then it's Abu Dhabi. Then it's MSG and they've already earmarked John Jones for that. And so the next available one is December. He's saying, just make me a new date. Give me August 31st. Just create a pay-per-view date for me. And they're like, no, no, no. We have our schedule. Next available is December. Like 305 and a half? He's just- 305.5? Call it McGregor Chandler. One night only. Just make it like Kobayashi and Chestnut. So like a Jake Paul type, like a Jake Paul, like this is a special event. It doesn't have to be a

numbered card. Exactly. But I don't know. It's a, it's a tug of war right now. And I don't know if he's going to win out. And you saw Dana's stance on Saturday at the post fight press conference. He was like, I'm not even thinking about this until he's a hundred percent ready to go. And so I think that's the way they're going to push this down. Like he's saying, give me the date right now. And they're like, no, no, no, no. Like until you're a thousand percent, then we'll discuss that. And then by the time that happens, all the chips will have fallen in a certain way. And they'll say, all right, yeah.

How about December or November or something like that? But it'll be a diminished version of him regardless. I've seen this rodeo too many times with mostly boxing. But these guys, as they get older, they hit mid thirties, late thirties. They haven't had a lot of ring slash octagon. And the layoffs are like, oh, he hasn't layoffs are like oh he hasn't fought in a year he hasn't fought in a year and a half he's fought one time in three years it just never goes well those are always the best guys to bet against over and over and over again because their name is

basically making the odds a certain level but they're not the guy anymore from the name yeah and it takes like the extra two fights to realize it. And this has been a UFC tradition dating back to the early 2000s. And also he has a boatload of money. And the other thing is like, he's trying to turn back the clock. The guys he is facing and being booked against are trying to like make a name off of him. And so who has more motivation there?

It's an interesting little thing. And I thought the Chandler fight was a perfect fight for him. I thought it was a very winnable fight. Chandler should wrestle against him. I didn't think he was going to. I think he was going to stand and trade. And sometimes he overextends.

And sometimes, you know, when you do that, you can get caught. And Conor is such a precise striker. I mean, it was right there for him. And it's devastating. And by the way, it's devastating for Chandler too. This guy hasn't fought in almost two years.

He's been waiting for this fight. His last fight was November of 2022. and he's been good to go. He just keeps chasing this, this dragon, so to speak, and it keeps getting pushed and pushed and pushed. And now he's faced with the predicament. Do you like, you know, do you take another fight or do you keep waiting? It's one of the craziest situations ever because no one's ever been faced with this before. Like it's right there. You can see it, you can touch it, but you don't know if it's actually going to come to fruition. Meanwhile, you're not making any money. Well, UFC 303 has proved just stay ready because you, you might be called to fight eight days before the pay-per-view. I mean, what was the fight that

had four people scratch before we get to the final? Has that ever happened? What's the record for most scratches? Well, the amazing thing is the evolution. It's happened like once or twice before, but this is particularly weird. So the original co-main event was Khalil Roundtree against Jamal Hill. Then Khalil Roundtree got popped, tested positive, so he got pulled.

Then it became Jamal Hill against Carlos Ulberg. Ulberg had just scored a 12-second knockout in May. Great. Okay, everyone's cool with that. Then on the day McGregor withdrew, Jamal Hill announces that he suffered an injury. So he's out. In comes Anthony Smith. So now it's Carlos Ulberg, Anthony Smith. And then just last Friday, we find out Carlos Ulberg got hurt. And so it's now Anthony Smith against Roman Delice, an 85er who's moving up to 205. So it started off with two guys,

Khalil Roundtree and Jamal Hillen, and it ends up being Anthony Smith versus Roman Delice. It's no longer the co-main event, by the way, in case anyone's like, what the hell? So that's a quadruple scratch. Wild, absolutely wild. That has to be at least tied for the record. It's definitely one of the weirder ones,

especially all the permutations. But really, this is the greatest sort of example of why the UFC is so beloved and popular right now. Because look at Fury Usyk. Two weeks before Fury Usyk, Fury gets a cut. The whole event gets canceled. Yeah. Conor McGregor, $20 million gate. It's already done deal. It's going to be the biggest gate in UFC history. He gets pulled. And what do they do? They pick Alex and Yuri, credit to them, two weeks notice, two of the most beloved fighters.

There isn't a single human being who's an MMA fan on the planet who hates either of these guys. They are just beloved. And they produce great moments, great fights. They had a great fight in November at MSG. You throw those guys on in the main event, you add another fan favorite fight, Brian Ortega versus Diego Lopez, which wasn't even on the card. They just like pulled it out of thin air. The rest of the card is solid. And this is exactly why the people love the UFC. The train rolls along.

The show goes on. These guys are out. We plug these guys in. Everyone's happy. They get to keep their night out on Saturday. And then we worry about the other stuff down the line. It's a remarkable thing that they've built. Yeah, because way back when, there's always been that thing about how the McMahons were kind of looking at UFC for a second.

When UFC was in trouble and they were talking and Vince didn't want to buy it. And Vince's defense at the time was, I don't understand their business model. They have too much turnover. They have somebody, they're the champ, they lose. All of a sudden they built the star and he's gone. Whereas like WWE, they pick the Undertaker and you build the Undertaker and you have that guy for 30 years and you can just put him in and you can market him in all these different ways. He's like, I just don't get their model. And what turned out to be the model is the model is just the numbered cards and the fight nights. And there's always another fight you can grab from thin air. And you can, at any time you have 10 to 12 stars,

but those 10 to 12 change year to year. And it doesn't really matter who the 10 to 12 are. And maybe two of them will be transcendent for what half a decade, two thirds of a decade. But ultimately it's just, it's a never-ending, replenishing pile of stars, which I don't think anyone would have predicted in the early 2000s, right? No, and that was always the knock. I remember Chuck Liddell,

he ends up on the cover of ESPN, the magazine, and he's on an episode of Entourage prior to UFC 71. The UFC is finally exploding, and they book him against Rampage. I'll never forget. It's Memorial Day weekend. I'm sitting at home watching SportsCenter, six o'clock on a Friday. And I remember Brian Kenney saying, we're going to go live to Las Vegas for the Chuck Liddell, Rampage Jackson weigh-in. Now this blew my mind. ESPN is talking about the UFC. This is absurd. And so it feels like a real coming out party for the sport.

And for Chuck, what happens? He gets knocked out in a minute and a half the next day. And so everyone's like, you see, this is why the sport will never be popular. But I love wrestling as well. And I understand the analogy, but being a wrestling fan is sort of like traveling on a lazy river. You just get to kind of enjoy the whole experience. Being an MMA fan and a UFC fan, you're, you're on this bullet train and you just kind of like hit your wagon to this guy, like Alex Perret, we're going to get him for two, three years and it's going to be freaking incredible. And he's going to take us through a rollercoaster of emotion and we'd love it. And then we jump off and we go to someone else.

And that's the way the fans are. Like your son is probably exactly like this. Like this is my guy. And now this is my guy. And now I love this guy. And I love that guy. And, and the fans love it. Like, it's just, it's an adrenaline type of fandom that you don't get another sports never

worked like this before i think that's why people had such a hard time seeing it in the mid-2000s because the sports we were used to is like you have stars they have a whole long career art yeah you root for them then they retire then you find the the next. And it's just, this is different. This is like speed dating crossed with I don't even know what. But it just never ends. And I think even you look at Pereira, like, I really like Pereira. He could get knocked out

on Saturday night and it's over. By the way, he got knocked out in April of 2023 by Izzy in Miami. He got brutally knocked out after he knocked him out at MSG. This guy, Alex Pereira, two-weight world champion in kickboxing, all of a sudden realizes there's nothing going on for me in kickboxing. Let me come over to MMA. He has one fight out of the UFC in 2020. I was watching it, late 2020, late pandemic that year, and there's no one there.

He fought in a company called LFA, a there. And I legit, he fought in a company called LFA, a feeder league. I legit thought he killed the guy. The guy was out for so long, no joke, like six, seven minutes, the guy was out and I thought he killed him. He hit him so hard. Then he gets signed. He made his debut after Conor's last fight. The last time Conor McGregor fought in July of 2021, Alex Perra wasn't even in the UFC yet. He makes his debut in September of 21. And what we've seen out of him with less than 10 fights on his resume, he's now a champion at 185 and 205, currently 205.

He's headlined MSG twice. He saved the day with 300. He saved the day with 303. It's mind blowing what he's done. And on top of that, he doesn't speak English. So like, it's very rare for someone who doesn't speak English to connect with the American audience. But he just has this aura. No, but like the fact that he's a mute and he doesn't have any expression, he doesn't show any

expression in Portuguese or in English. He has a great entrance. He does the bow and arrow thing. He is a cult, like favorite, like the fans adore him. You left out one thing yes great great great elite stare down before the fight guy him and yuri before the first fight yeah one of the i i don't know if it was a top three stare down of all time but it's a top 10 it's going to be mentioned and and that's why people love both of them because in an era where i think a lot of sports fans and fight fans feel like there's a lot of inauthentic characters, people cosplaying as fighters. These two are as authentic as it gets. They're as real as it gets.

Like they do not. Yuri Prokhaska goes into the woods and starts like punching wood things and he goes and he meditates. I just spoke to him. He went into this thing, like people make a big deal about Aaron Rodgers. He does this before or after every single fight. He goes into a room for three days, no light, no food, just water and just meditates for three days. Nothing, no phone, no nothing, nothing, nothing going on. Like this guy is as martial artist as it gets. And he is so beloved. And then he goes up against a guy like Pereira who comes from the jungle and

just like, you know, does the bow and arrow thing and knocks people out for a living and is like, you saw at 300, he gets hit below the belt and all of a sudden Herb Dean is like, okay, one second. He's like, no, no, get out of the way. And boom, he knocks him out.

Like, it's just, it's unbelievable. It's unbelievable what they represent. They couldn't have found two better guys to offset the disappointment of Conor not fighting. This is why I think the UFC hit a home run with this. Yeah. And I'm betting on Pereira, but the thing that makes me nervous is, you know, let's say they fight three times. He's not winning all three. Like you're one of those, but I went back and I watched the Izzy fight that he lost. Cause I, I, I remember it being

surprising, but I couldn't remember the details of it. That was a really unique knockout by Izzy because it looked like Pereira was about to take him out and he just nailed him with a right, like right at the perfect time when he was like, oh, I'm going to do my knee hit. I'm just, this is it. I'm going to finish you. And then just got rocked, which doesn't happen that often when you feel like the night, it happens almost more in boxing where you feel like the knockouts about to happen. And then it flips the other way. Um, and that's the only time he's lost. So to me, I, I just feel like he's one of the safest bets. He's in your top three for pound for pound at this point, right? Yes. But I will say this, like, if you're looking for some reason to not pick him,

when they called him to take this fight, he was in Australia on a seminar slash media tour. He lives in Connecticut. He was in Australia, loving life, no plans to fight. The latest talks were him fighting in August in Perth. And not only was he in Australia, and not only was, at the time, Yuri back home in Czech Republic,

and the guy's always in shape. He's always training. Like he truly lives that martial artist lifestyle. Alex Pereira broke his toe before 300 and he fought with a broken toe and then he broke another toe in the fight. So he was coming off of two broken toes in Australia has to fly back two Saturdays ago and really has like a very tiny window to prepare for this fight. They called when all the stuff that was happening with Conor McGregor started to go down, they called Yuri and they said, would you be willing to step in? He said, yes.

It took a full week for them to get the deal done with Alex. Now I know Alex was training a little bit just in case, but he kept on saying, no, no, no, no, no. I'm in Australia. My, my, my toes are, you know, recovering and all that stuff. Yuri was like full throttle, hoping that this happens and, and, and getting ready for the fight. And so if you're someone that's looking to take a flyer on Yuri and the line is pretty close, you may want to say to yourself, like, you know, maybe he had a little more time to prepare. Maybe

he was in a better headspace. You never know. I will say this about Yuri. He does get hit a lot and he absorbs those punches, but it's one thing to get hit by, you know, with all due respect in Alexander Rakic, who doesn't hit as hard as Alex Pereira. It's another to get hit by Alex Pereira, which he found out about in November, which by the way,

I still think was an early stoppage to a degree. Still, he does get hit a lot. So for him to win this fight, he's going to have to have much better defense. I think you just laid out the case why Pereira is not like two to one.

Yeah, yeah, 100%. He's like in that minus 155 range, which seems low, but it's, I don't know. Has anybody ever run the advanced metrics on fighters who took fights with less than two weeks notice? I would imagine it's not awesome. And you have a crutch if you lose, right? You lose and you go, well, I took the fight on two weeks notice. Right. And that's why you have to respect Alex even more because most guys who are taking this fight on two weeks notice, we just saw it with Alex Volkanovsky, right?

That was back in October when he fought Issam Akhachet. That was a loss. Yeah, but in that case, he's moving up to 55. So he really has nothing to lose. He's still the champion at 45 at the time. Or you're taking a non-title fight like Anderson Silva back in the day.

You're moving up to fight a James Irvin just for fun or a Stefan Bonner just for fun. Here's Alex saying, no, no, no, I'll defend my belt. He could have taken a heavyweight fight or a non-title fight just to say, hey, I'm going to show up, star power, I'll help you guys out. He's defending his title and now he's the hunted against the hunter. The guy who's been sitting on the loss, who's a lovable psycho, who's just been like obsessing over this. And now he's going to go out and defend the belt against them. Takes a lot of balls, man. I have so much respect for him and Yuri. ESPN did their pound for pound and they had Islam one, Edwards two and Pereira three.

Would you really put Edwards ahead of Pereira three. Would you really put Edwards ahead of Pereira? At this point, yes. Okay. But it's very close. And by the way, I'm pulling it up as we speak, the ringer has its own pound for pound rankings. Yes, it does. I just noticed the ESPN one

because I was surprised that Edwards was second. I mean, Edwards has been undefeated for so long. Why do I feel like he's beatable? Am I nuts? I mean, his last loss was a decision loss to Kamaru Usman in 2015. It's been almost 10 years. All right. So my top three are Islam, Leon, and Alex.

And the only reason why you maybe knock alex down a little bit is because he did get knocked out by izzy um and and and pretty brutally uh but don't tell this to dana white because he still maintains that john jones should be number one and that anyone who doesn't have him number one is a complete moron he went on a bit of a rant about this after the last pay-per-view in um in new jersey i have have Jones four, and I think soon you could start to make the case for the Aspinalls of the world or the Teporias of the world as well. Jones just, I'm not trying to hate on him.

He just hasn't fought enough. He's fought once since February of 2020. That's just not active enough. This is like the Kawhi Leonard thing. It's like Kawhi is one of the six best guys in the world. Is he? Doesn't play. Yeah, and theoretically he might be, but the same thing for Embiid. six best guys in the world. Is he? Doesn't play. Yeah.

Theoretically, he might be, but the same thing for Embiid. It's like, yeah. Can Embiid play a whole season? Can we not have like some sort of Embiid crisis? Can we have good playoffs? I also think Dana gets confused between greatest of all time

and pound for pound. Jon Jones could be the greatest of all time. That doesn't mean he's the best fighter right now. When you think pound for pound, what's your number one thing you think of? If everyone was the same weight,

let's just pick an arbitrary weight, 155 pounds, who's the best guy? Who has the best skills? Who wins that fight? If everyone was boiled down to the same weight. Wouldn't the smarter way to do it be like, let's imagine these guys at 140, 180, and 220?

Like almost like three different weight ranges? I just think like, who's the baddest man on the planet? But you know what? This is the beauty of pound for pound. It's the classic barbershop debate. It's like everyone has their own criteria. There's no right answer. This is why UFC is gaining momentum and baseball is losing momentum.

Because in baseball, it'd be like, nope, here's war. And I've got some warp for you. Let me throw some bibbip your way and some fip. And UFC could just be like, no, I think Edwards is the best pound for pound. You don't really need to have any evidence. You'd be like, well, he hasn't lost in almost 10 years. Beat that idea.

All right, we'll take a quick break do you see it it just stares at me smiling on october 18 discover what hides behind the smile hey you yeah you scrolling trolling TikTok and avoiding your chem homework? Chegg here. Hot take. You've seen enough Bama Rush, ASMR keyboard, and viral dance videos for one day. Let's lock in and start that assignment. If you need a little help, lean on Chegg's expert-supported learning tools. I say this with love. Put on some lo-fi beats and get going with our step-by-step study support. Your weekend will thank you. Small steps today means big wins tomorrow. With Chegg. Subscribe today. You got this. Tega. Lopez seems like he's on the fringe of becoming not the guy, but like the fun kind of, oh, I love that guy. Like one of those guys, but he's like a fight away from having it happen. Right. Is that a fair take? Yeah. And this could be the fight. Um, this is actually reminiscent a

little bit of the Benoit St. Denis, Dustin Poirier fight from March where it's like a guy who's in the top three, a former title contender is just kind of looking for something at the moment. And here comes this other guy who's in the top 15, like, you know, 10 to 15. That's what Diego is. And he's trying to make his name off of Ortega. I give Ortega a lot of credit for taking this fight. A, because he wasn't on the card before the condo thing happened. B, he's actually coming off a win.

Dustin wasn't. So Dustin was in a bit of a tougher spot. He just beat Yair Rodriguez in February. And he said recently that he was actually considering moving up to 55 and fighting on that sphere card in September. But then this opportunity came about and he took it. And so it's at 145. But this is, we've seen a theme this year, by the way, where the UFC, which is what they should do, they're trying to build the younger stars off the backs of the old guard, right? We just saw it with Robert Whitaker. But what keeps happening is the old guard is saying, not yet. And so Ortega could be saying, not so fast to Diego Lopez. Like, we just saw it last weekend. We saw it with, you know, with Dustin Poirier when he beat Benoit Saint-Denis. We've seen it a couple of times over the course of the year. And we're going to see maybe on this card as well, MVP and Ian Gary.

MVP is 11 years older than Ian Gary. That could be another case where the old guard says like, nah, not so fast. And so I'm really curious to see how this one plays out because Diego, to your point, is on a rocket ship, but Ortega is still very much a player at 145. Ian Gary is going to be in a couple of my parlays. Just telling you. You like Ian Gary in this fight? I don't. It's more like I'm not a Michael Venom Page guy. Why? I don't know. I don't have any real reason other than the Bellator bellator bellator bias i'm just like yeah ian told me that um he didn't want to take this fight because mvp was lower ranked and he also

and so i said to him like how did you come around to it like what's the motivation now he's like i'm still not motivated for it i'm like oh that's not good now i think part of that is showmanship and part of that is just like some trash talk. But MVP is really good, man. Just because he's fighting in Bellator or was for the past 10 plus years. He is not a bum at all. And so I think this is going to be a really interesting fight. I think Ian's going to try to keep the fight. There are two incredible strikers, and I don't think there'll be a lot of wrestling.

But if one guy is going to try to clinch and make this a dirty fight, it's going to be Ian. And so we'll see because MVP is really good in those situations as well. He's very evasive. He's elusive. And, uh, you know, he's done pretty well, even though he is a striker on the ground when faced against like really top wrestlers. And Ian is not one of those. He is a striker by trade. And to me, this is the second biggest fight on the card. I'm kind of shocked that it's the opener of the pay-per-view. I think it should be the co-main. And I think they just want to kind of start things off with a bang. But to me, as far as stakes

and intrigue, by far, second biggest on the card. What about our quadruple scratch fight? Which would that be? The one with Smith. Oh, the quadruple scratch. It's alright. It's alright. I mean, it's just, you know, it's a

payday and Dolizze is coming up to 205. Smith's, you know, he's all right. It's all right. I mean, it's just, you know, it's a payday and Dolita is coming up to, uh, 205 Smith's, you know, he's a great guy and, uh, he's made a nice career for himself as an analyst and he's on the back nine. Uh, I was more interested in the Smith Ulberg fight than I was you about one guy that I'm super excited about? I'm sure your son loves this guy. And correct me if I'm wrong if you ask him later today. Peyton Talbot. Peyton Talbot has the look. He's got the vibe. Peyton Talbot, you got to go a deep dive into his YouTube channel. walking into this like weird 90s and one mixtape skateboarder vortex of like just like blink 182 skater guy surfer guy shot like it's on a vhs tape you know like those old like and one tapes that people would pass around of like that's who payton talbot is it's weird there's weird images

i love this kid. I love everything about him. He's got he's got a black circle on his chest and a black circle on his back, which he has some explanation for it being like something that you can see through his soul. He and he's got the look.

He's got the hair. He's got the vibe. He paints his nails. This kid is a superstar like about to break out and could be like another Sean O'Malley type that the kids all love. And so he's on the card and I think it was really smart to put him on the card. He's lower on the card, but he's been fantastic so far and could be someone that a lot of people are excited

about for the next couple of years. Minus 2200 on FanDuel for his fight. So it seems like speaking of my son, I have a whole UFC research committee now because I have my son, but I still have my daughter's boyfriend who runs the Balls Deep UFC Instagram. I'm a big fan. But he's really into it. So I said,

I have R.O. coming on. Give me three questions. Oh. Here's the first one. Is Whitaker versus Sean Strickland now our next big, most fun fight. So not necessarily the next big super fight, but just a fun fight, a fun style fight, a fun, I can't wait to see what

happens fight, especially Whitaker, who was just absolutely jacked and like a maniac last weekend. Cause I bet on the other guy and you texted me and, no, no, this is going to be Whitaker all the way. And then they showed Whitaker come out and he was doing the Whitaker stuff. And I was just like, oh my God, why did I bet against this guy? And then we found out via his manager on Tuesday that he had like this emergency surgery before flying out. He had an abscess in his mouth and he couldn't eat or sleep or train. And then he goes and does that. It's like, these guys are just built different. Um, I love the fight. I said seconds after the knockout that that should be the fight. The problem is Sean Strickland is adamant that he is going to wait for the winner of Izzy DDP and just

get a title shot. I don't know if that's going to happen. He's been a little critical of the UFC's businesses, business practices, and they tend to not love that and reward that type of behavior. So Whitaker is from Australia. He lives in Sydney. The pay-per-view on August 17th is in Perth. I think you have Izzy DDP at the top, co-main event, Whitaker Strickland. They all have a history with each other, by the way. DDP, the champion, beat Whitaker last summer. It's like Real Housewives. It's just like all the housewives have had a fight at some point during a season.

Yes, he beat Strickland to win the belt in January. Izzy and Whitaker had two classics. Izzy and Strickland had their fight where Strickland became champion. They're all intertwined. So that, to me, is the fight to make. I just don't know if Strickland's going to agree to it. Next question.

Who's the real champ of the heavyweight division at this point? And have we ever gone this long without actual heavyweight clarity since we've had UFC dating back to the late 1990s? Has it ever been this ambiguous? There's been interim champions. The newer fans may not remember the Brock Lesnar diverticulitis days. Those were weird times where he was out for quite a while and had surgery and all this stuff. Frank Mir became interim champion. So yes, there has been some muddied waters at heavyweight. To me, it's Tom Aspinall. Tom Aspinall is the best heavyweight on the planet. Jon Jones has one win at heavyweight, and it was against Cyril Gann, who wasn't the heavyweight champion. So it's not like he's the lineal champion. Fran Seng Gann, who had the belt, and he walked away. And Tom Aspinall has obviously more wins at heavyweight. He's been in the UFC for several years. And his last win was against an equal opponent, in my opinion, to Cyril Gann. It was Sergey Pavlovich, who I know didn't look good this past weekend, but up until then had looked very, very good.

And so I don't know how you can say that Jon Jones is the sole or rightful owner of that belt. If you want to break it in half, you can. But to me, because of his longevity, Aspinall, because of his skills, because of what he showed us, and because of his strength of competition, he's beaten more tough guys at heavyweight than John one guy.

He, to me, is the sort of unofficial champion. If I can equate it to early 90s WWE, you know when Ric Flair used to parade around with the NWA belt and he called himself the real heavyweight champion? I've told Tom that he should do this. I don't think it's hitting. I don't think he understands the reference, but I think when he fights in July, he should just call himself the real heavy, the people's champion, if you will. And, uh,

yeah, better marketing time. Yeah. Yeah. He's, you know, he's just a humble blue collar Englishman, but I think he wins on July 27th. And then I think he gets on the microphone and calls out John. And I think he should be sitting in the front row at MSG if John ends up fighting then. And then he should fight the winner. And if the winner of that fight refuses to fight him, they should give him the belt and everyone should get out of the way. Who's favorite in Jones versus Aspinall? That's a good question. I like Aspinall. I think Aspinall is- But don't you think Jones would get the, oh, he's more famous,

like kind of favorite bump? Like Jones would be like minus 140, but all the smart people would be like, no, no, Aspinall, this should be a dead even fight. That's very possible. Aspinall is like a generational talent. He reminds me of Cain Velasquez and Frank Mir if they had a kid,

the way he fights. And those are two of the best ever. The way he fights, the way he moves, the way he boxes, the way he fights. And those are two of the best ever. The way he fights, the way he moves, the way he boxes, the way he's on the ground. So maybe you are right, but I would like his chances in that fight. And that's no knock on John. He's just getting up there in age and he doesn't fight as often. Third question. Maybe I need to give them a nickname. The Balls Deep segment. Tommy and Ben, the Balls Deep Ben combo. Does Ben ever appear on the page? I haven't seen him yet.

He hasn't. I've been telling him he can't do that stuff, but I'm sure he'll... Why not? He'll irrational confidence his way in at some point. Holloway beating Gaethje, was that the most important individual development for

UFC this year? Because goes up a division, wins an amazing fashion, now he's got this title fight. Was that the most fun, unexpected thing that platform that it was on, right? It was on 300. So many people are watching and it was iconic and it was the point and the knockout a second left. So I would say as of right now, it's the knockout of the year. I don't think it was the fight of the year. I think there's a bit of revisionist history. Like the fight wasn't really that close. It was pretty much all Holloway. It was almost like the ending of the year. Yeah. A hundred percent. And knockout. And knockout, for sure. And moment. I thought Poirier Islam was more intriguing as far as a fight is concerned.

Like, ooh, what's going to happen? Especially as it played out. But yeah, I mean, consider this. When Max Holloway lost to Alex Volkanovsky for the third time, you were pretty much thinking, where does this guy go from here? He's in no man's land.

Now here he is, uber popular, BMF champion, pick of the litter. And I think as I was talking about the UFC hitting a home run for 303, the one guy that would have been bigger than Pereira would have been Holloway.

And they did reach out to Holloway to fight Chandler. But I was told he was unavailable. He's got some stuff. He's, he's, you know, he's got some stuff, he's on vacation, all that stuff. And, and he doesn't have to do this. And so it's unbelievable. And again, to the UFC's credit and to the sports credit, a guy loses three times in a title fight. And I know one of them was controversial and all that stuff, but in boxing, like you're pretty much written off, you're done, right? And here he is, he takes a couple of fights, he beats a couple of, you know,

solid contenders at 45, he moves up, the chips fall in a certain way and boom, now he's a superstar and he's fighting Ilya Teporya in a gigantic fight later this year. So yes, I do think that the statement is correct. But by the way, his greatest moment could happen if Max Holloway ends the year as champion, which they're going to fight, you know, maybe in October, uh, that would be an unbelievable comeback story. Feels like we could go every three weeks with the numbered pay-per-views. I know, I know they shouldn't, but it feels like we have enough talent to, I mean, basically now it's every four weeks, right?

So there's like 13 a year. Yeah. And I mean, this stretch is pretty wild because we had a pay-per-view June 1st. Now we've got one 29, so that's four weeks, right? So there's like 13 a year. Yeah. And I mean, this stretch is pretty wild because we had a pay-per-view June 1st. Now we've got one 29th, so that's four weeks. Then we've got 27th of July, but then we have 17th of August and then 14th of September. Well, they're smart because they crammed three in between NBA finals and football, right? They looked at that and I don't think they're going against

the Olympics at all either. They like strategically. 27th is Olympics. Is it against it? Yeah, yeah. Is the Olympics starting at that point? I thought it was like

end of July. It starts like the 26th. Yeah, right around there. Yeah. Right. Yeah, it's a good time by then. But it's right at the beginning so it's fine

and that's another one that shows just how hot they are. That one's happening in the middle of the night in England. Like that one is going to be taking place in Manchester

but catering to American time zone. So the main card is going to start at 3 a.m. local time. And so when by the time Leon Edwards and Bilal Muhammad fight

it's going to be around like 5.30 in the morning which is kind of absurd especially for Leon who lives in the UK and is having to change his whole sleep schedule now, Aspinall too. But they could do whatever they want. They are the beast.

I love how weird the pay-per-view times have gotten in boxing and MMA over the last two years. Because of the Saudis? We just, all the weird locations and especially in the West Coast, any fight that's in Saudi Arabia comes on, you know, between 11 and 2 o'clock here in the afternoon, which is great.

My wife doesn't love it, but... Yeah, it's not good for atmosphere, but it's great for us. And it just seems like there's more boxing than ever. So it feels like every weekend there's something now, right? And you're doing some of it, right?

Yeah, I'm doing some of it with The Zone. It's just such a good... WWE is on fire right now. right and you're doing you're doing some of it right yeah i'm doing some of it with the zone um it's just such a good wwe is on fire right now like they're on fire that's the other thing if you're one of those fans like me who who's in that venn diagram who loves all three entities wrestling boxing and mma it's like i can't even keep up anymore like boxing is doing amazing don't listen to anyone who's saying they're dying or in trouble. Now boxing, this is the best boxing stretch in a while, in a while. WWE is just like, I like what, as the kids say, they are cooking right now. It's every single show is just banger after banger. And then UFC is on fire too. It's a pretty incredible time. I don't remember in my

lifetime, all three entities as hot together at the same time, like we're seeing right now. And sports gambling is definitely help. There's no question. It made it more fun. It puts the stuff in perspective. It's easier to understand. You have instant people you can bet on all that stuff. All right, Ariel, so what's the plan this week? Okay, so actually as this is out, our 303 preview show is out. It's on our Spotify exclusive feed, so go check that out. Ring Room MMA Show, myself, PT Chuck, and TST, our fearless producer, all a part of it. And then post-show

following 303, by the time all of you wake up, or some of you go to bed, it will be up as well. Looking forward to that. Say hi to those guys. Tell Chuck we were waiting for him in the finals. It's fine. Jamal Murray, he's good to go.

We're secretly happy about this. He's going to text me the moment this is out and he hears it. But, uh, I had, I had to be honest, Chuck. I'm sorry.

I said, I felt bad. I actually didn't feel bad. I was very happy. All right. Good to see you. All right. That's it for the podcast.

Thanks to Ariel Hawani. Thanks to J Kyle Mann and Kevin O'Connor. Don't forget. We are coming back on Wednesday night after round one. Me and Rossello, maybe some special guests

as well. We'll be doing a lot of NBA stuff on The Ringer. Don't forget about The Ringer's NBA Draft Guide. As well, don't forget about Bad News Bears,

new Rewatchables podcast. That's up. You can watch it on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well. You can watch all the clips from this podcast on the Bill Simmons

YouTube channel. And I will see watch all the clips from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. And I will see you Wednesday night after round one. Yes, we can. On the wayside. On the Bruce and Leveron.