The Bill Simmons Podcast - NBA Draftapalooza, Part 1: A Shocking Celtics Trade With Kevin O’Connor and Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: June 22, 2023

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo and Kevin O’Connor after the Celtics, Grizzlies, and Wizards made a surprise trade that sent Marcus Smart to Memphis and Kristaps Porzingis to Boston. They discuss Porzingis’s fit and future with the Celtics, why the deal makes sense for Memphis, and why Bill is going to miss Marcus. Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Ryen Russillo and Kevin O’Connor Producers: Kyle Crichton and Steve Ceruti Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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we got mock drafts, we got a big board done by KOC and a whole bunch of our NBA writers KOC is about to come on it's a little bit of an emergency pod I gotta say

if it was Porzingis and Brogdon probably would have waited until Thursday but then Marcus Smart got involved so we had to

we had to bring Rosillo out KOC Kevin O'Connor and we're gonna do a little emergency podcast on a shocking late Wednesday night trade.

It's all next. First, our friends from ProJet. All right, we're taping this. It is 9.30 on a Wednesday night. I was hanging out with my daughter and my son. We watched This Is The End. We had a great time. Had some ice cream. There was this Porzingis canceled trade

that felt like it probably wasn't going to get worked out. And then all of a sudden, the bombshell. Porzingis to the Celtics, Tyus Jones, and some contracts to the Wizards, and Marcus Smart to the Memphis Grizzlies. Out of nowhere, the Celtics got two first-round picks. So we decided, screw it. Let's get a Zoom together.

We pulled Rosillo. I don't even know what part of the country Rosillo's in. We have KOC, who was just ready all night because we figured something might happen. The reason we're assembling though, this feels like the end of the era. The Marcus Smart, Brad Stevens, whatever the hell that era was, KOC, that's where my head's going first. Like, wow, I can't believe we talked about Marcus Smart trades for five years. They actually did it. What'd you think? Well, this is the end. You're right. That's for sure.

I think with Marcus Smart, it was time though. He wins defensive player of the year. Last year, we've talked about it all year in our respective pods. He just wasn't the same guy defensively. And for Boston, this is what they've been hunting for this entire offseason was to initially clearly they wanted to trade malcolm brogdon that didn't

work out but they wanted to break up these guards and have fewer options and they wanted to add size and the fact that they come away in this deal with two first round draft picks including number 25 this year 2024 next year i mean like me, this is an absolute home run deal since KP's just coming off a career best season on the offensive end, and he was still very good on defense for the Wizards. I'm honestly shocked they got as much as they did in this deal, considering Smart's decline last year.

Russillo, I can only guess your thoughts. I'll just start here. Would you rather have Tyus Jones or Marcus Smart? Yeah, once I saw Tyus was in the deal, I was like, whoa, wait a minute. I mean, I love Tyus. And I understand, you know, if you just look at some of the numbers, you'd be like, wait a minute, he's not who Marcus Smart is. And, you know, maybe you're right. But I've just always loved Tyus.

Like, you know, my new buddy, Chris Paul, I was like, I just love if he had a Tyus Jones backing him up to take some of the wear and tear off the tires. So I think losing him for Memphis, this deal's really weird, man. It's really weird. Look, we got to let you take the floor here. So why don't you just go? Because you've been on the smart thing. I remember when we did, when they lost two years ago in the playoffs, you and I were doing a pod after they were eliminated, I think. And you were like, yeah, he won't be back. So it took two years, but now he's gone. But I love the guy and I feel like genuinely sad.

He was a great Celtic. I loved rooting for him. I had a rollercoaster ride of all time with him. I can't even compare it to another athlete on another Boston team. I can't even think of anyone else like this. I mean, Manny on the Red Sox was a roller coaster, but ultimately he was a hall of famer. He was great. He was a difference maker. He won titles with them. Marcus was too great to be considered a role player, but not great enough to be the third guy on a team that won the title, which I think is ultimately the destiny of the Marcus Smart era, right? They got so close in that Golden State series.

So close this year where they come all the way back and it just, there was always this little piece missing. We always talked about it, Rousseau, on the Sunday Day Pods. The ball always found him in the biggest possible moments. And I've been saying this for a month after five and seven years where you go to the conference finals and you just can't get over the hump. At some point, you got to change something. So that's where my head's at. Were you at that point, KOC, with this team? Like that something semi-major had to happen?

Yeah. I mean, look, I think Marcus is is i mean my ever since watching him in college at oklahoma state i always felt like he was going to be one of those guys that had clutch moments and the biggest moments in the biggest games and you know clearly for boston making all the runs that they did he did have plenty of great moments but he also had pretty plenty of dud moments as well and i think with the way this locker room has changed and the coaching staff has changed, it's at a point now where something needed to be shaken up. And if it had to be Marcus Smart or if it had to be Malcolm Brogdon, then so be it.

And that might be a harsh way to say it, considering he's the longest-tenured Celtic and he did so many great things over the years for Boston. But ultimately, I think it was time to move on and kind of clear out his voice from the locker room. And maybe this is a point where without him being there, you do see a Jalen Brown or a Jason Tatum kind of take on that role a bit more without Marcus Smart being there. Maybe he has to go for those guys to take the next step.

And the fact they got what they did now, they're in a position where they can continue trying to trade up within this year's draft tomorrow and Thursday night. They've been trying to trade up from 35. Now they can do that with 25. They have KP. Now they can play with a space floor

with Horford and KP and still have room protection. It's insurance for Time Lord. It just it balances out the roster in ways that I don't think smarts intangibles or leadership necessarily outweighed the positives that Boston now has. You know, with Brad Stevens, especially entering Thursday with the draft. And Rosillo, you were on this. I mean, the Horford age thing. How realistic was it to expect 20 solid minutes a game from him next year? I mean, I'm not saying he couldn't do it, but

at some point with centers and miles and games and seasons, he was in the 2007 draft. He was in the same draft with Jeff Green. And at some point, it's like, this can't be your center solution. Robert Williams was hurt every year, and now Horford is 38. So now they have a little more flexibility. They also, they kept Grant. But did you, Russell, did you feel like they at least had to address the big man thing and that they had too many guards? Where was your opinion on that? They desperately need another big man, okay? Because Williams is always hurt. He just just is and even when he's healthy you're always like wait is he hurt again you know and it's it's a really weird thing like you have to watch him all the time to kind of notice it and then like horford this year was a miracle it was a miracle that he was playing

these major minutes and certainly the shooting fell off but what he was this year what was he second and threes percentage wise in the regular season and then you know he off. But what he was this year, what was he second in threes percentage-wise in the regular season? And then, you know, he didn't seem like he could hit a big one there when they needed it late other than that one game in Philadelphia. But the fact that he was out there competing

in these high-level playoff games, you know, almost getting to the NBA Finals again, I think he went from Horford was so great that I thought people were kind of making a mistake. Like, wait, you just think that's going to happen again? So they had to add another big. And the best part about Przingis is that if it's just the opt-in without a new deal, then I'm all for it. I know everybody's big on the Bill Simmons sad face meme, which is picking up a ton of momentum lately. And now, God damn it.

You had a good tweet about it because it was like, yeah, that would also be my face if I found out they extended them for a hundred million plus dollars because- 140. Yeah. Right. That's the problem with Przingis. He had a really good year. I loved the guy before the draft. My Przingis history is well-documented, but at a certain time,

you just kind of give up on guys that aren't going to play. So now you're adding a third guy into it, but at least it's a different look. It's a completely different look. I remember when Dallas had him, one of the things that I'd kind of been told was against Anthony Davis in a playoff series, if the Lakers aren't going to play with a center, that leaves Davis having to try to chase Przingis around and soften them up a little bit. It gives Missoula, although sometimes it's going to be the double bigs.

There are certain times you felt like they should have gone to it. But I'm thinking about Embiid in a playoff series. If they go with Przingis as the five and play four out or go five out, and Embiid has to actually kind of contest some of those shots if they don't play a Horford or Williams alongside him, I just think it gives you a much different look. You have a completely different basketball combination of what you want to look like if you get Przingis healthy. So if he's healthy and it's one year and you get the picks and you moved off of Smart,

who, you know, my history with him is far more complicated. I remember one year I went through like his first seven seasons and every year that he took more shots in a game, like there was like every time they lost, if you looked at their wins and losses, in wins, he took less shots and in losses he always took more and it was like for seven seasons i thought what marcus did two years ago is he kind of finally figured out hey i'm not as good as jalen i'm not as good as tatum he deferred more but it felt like this guard combo where derrick white was clearly better than he and brogdon and that guard role is so diminished now the point guard that you still

needed smart to be like look you you might need to set somebody up every now and then and I don't know that they were ever playing like that anymore so it felt a little redundant because they've done a good job at developing or not developing but acquiring talent at that position so he felt like a surplus that allows them to look different and they pick up the two picks so the one year for Przingis I think this is a home run for the Celtics thing, but I'm also afraid he's going to be in a boot watching games too. So who knows? I would rather they did the one year and didn't extend them at all and got a look at it and decided after the year how it went. He played 65 games last year. He's 27. Pretty major knee surgery. I think it was six years ago.

Tall guy, which always makes you nervous. But one of the people I really trust in life with basketball opinions, ironically, is my buddy Joe House, who I've known for 35 years. We always see things relatively the same with hoops. And he watched Porzingis all year. I just assumed House was not going to like Porzingis and just be like, yeah, he's soft or whatever. He really liked Porzingis last year. He was like, this guy's good. Like he's a good offensive player. Um, there's certain matchups that he's not great. Like he thought, he thought some guys could kind of bang into him and overpower him. And of course Embiid is a bad matchup, but Embiid's a bad matchup for anybody. Um, the shooting, he said he was one of those guys that you could kind of feel it in the

first half if he got going. It's like, oh, it's a KP night. And I think why I like this for the Celtics, there was so much certainty with this team. We just watched so many games with these guys over the last few years that we were like the dads on a little league team where you kind of, oh, here comes Tommy. He's going to fucking pop up, this kid. You just got, we knew these guys so intimately

and there was such predictability of their offense that they kind of needed to throw a grenade in the swimming pool. Porzingis now is this like wildcard guy, high ceiling, if he can stay healthy, if they can figure out how to use him and space him, and if he's going to get open shots with these guys and do a little double big stuff. It's just kind of more interesting next season than it would have been if they brought all these

dudes back. And the other thing, KFC, they can replace all of Smart's minutes. That's the real piece of this. If Brogdon can stay healthy, now who knows where his head's at after he was traded for eight hours, but White needed to play 38 minutes a game, 35 to 38 a game. He's that good. Brown is going to be in the two and the three, assuming he comes back, which I think he will.

They're going to have some sort of free agent swing. I've heard that they're going to use the mid-level this year because the second apron stuff doesn't really kick in for two more years that they're going to use the mid-level this year because the second apron stuff doesn't really kick in for two more years that they're going to spend this year so they can go and try to get one more wing and I feel like you can replace all those Marcus minutes right KFC? Yeah, I mean you're going to just play

Derek White more, you're going to play Malcolm Brogdon more assuming that he actually does stick around here you have guys that can fill that role. It just gives you more lineup flexibility overall. It's like Ryan said. I mean, with Porzingis, you're going to be able to space out those bigs on the perimeter now. You don't need to use those guard-heavy lineups anymore. You can use more two-big lineups and still have five-out spacing if you want to.

Or you can use KP as that screen and roller in the time Lord role. He can do that if necessary. Granted he's not as explosive as Robert Williams, but he can do that in a certain way. He can beat mismatches much better. He's a great post player at this point. You had great stats

in the column on Monday. You had those second spectrum stuff about how he was able to attack certain defenses that I was like, whoa, that's a good job with those stats. I mean, he, I mean, like Ryan, you mentioned Dallas, you know, his stint there earlier in his career, he wasn't nearly as good at that point at beating mismatches on the post or it just attacking closeouts off the dribble. He's gotten at least last season, like way better than he was just a handful of years ago in Dallas. and then never mind when he was younger with the Knicks

he just seems like a much more complete offensive player at this point where he can kind of be the third option for Boston sometimes he'll be a decoy pulling out Embiid or if Boston were to make the finals pulling out a Jokic next year I mean he can do that but I think they can also throw it down to him on the post or just kick it out to him from behind the mean, he can do that, but I think they can also throw it down to him on the post or just kick it out to him from behind the arc and he can make plays off the bounce now

with a little pull up or get all the way to the rim. He just KP is just so much more complete now that the upside that you have with him, if he plays 40 games during the regular season,

but you have him healthy for April, May and you hope June, that's really ultimately what you're gambling on here. He's Al Horford insurance because he can space the floor, but he's Robert Williams insurance because he can protect the rim, and he can play with either of those guys if two of the three are healthy. So I think for Boston, it's definitely a big, big win of a trade.

And the draft pick stuff, I'm amazed they got two out of this. I can't get over that. I can't believe they're in the draft. I've done no research on any non-lottery picks. Now I'm going to have to spend eight hours promoting trying to figure out who's in this draft. Rusillo, walk us through your journey with Porzingis. Were you ever completely out? Were you ever completely in? Were you ever completely in? But like, where did you stand? I was like way too in when I was prepping the draft one year and he withdrew because he couldn't get a first round promise. And that's when I was hitting up Chad Ford. I'm like, what's the problem here?

How can this guy not get a first round promise? How can he not? And I loved him. And then he didn't go. He came back next year in the draft. And then I remember talking to teams about it. And it was like just the classic lottery stuff and the survival of a GM where GMs at the top would be like, not that I was talking to everybody, obviously, but the philosophy being like, even if you like Przingis a little bit more than Towns, if you're wrong about Przingis, you're fired. Like if you're wrong about towns, it's like, okay, maybe, maybe we'll give you another, another cycle and a new coach and all that kind of stuff. I think there was even an article. I figured if it was ESPN, I figured if it was Grantland, but it was like, is Porzingis a bust because he's staring right at us, daring us to like him. And then he's right. And it was

perfect. Cause it was like, look at him, look at this guy. He is, he's the poster boy for another international bust because it's, but the thing I always liked about him is back then, he had a little bit more edge to him. And then he shows up with the Knicks. He's dunking on guys. He's swatting. He had a real confidence that we weren't seeing from some of the international players. Now we see it all the time with him. I think the personality has evolved to the point where none of these guys are ever scared now when they step on an NBA floor.

But the Knicks got sick of him pretty quickly. And then when they traded him to Dallas, remember, we were all like, that's the best you could do? Like, oh, wait, going backwards on the Knicks thing. He was in that unicorn. I think I even did a unicorn article for The Ringer where it was like him and Giannis and Embiid. And it felt like we were in the era of like the foreign unicorn guy. I think we all considered his ceiling to be on par with Giannis and Embiid before he got hurt. And then by the time his Dallas stint was done, it was like, Jesus, what is this guy worth?

Wouldn't want that contract. So when I was looking at it this year, I'm like, yeah, he's been pretty good, but I was kind of over it. I was over it probably because he didn't hit the ceiling that the other guys you're talking about, because it was this absurd combination of all of the size and all these skills. And like that beginning of the Knicks thing was so much fun because you're like, oh my God, like they took the right guy. They took the guy that was like really easy to pass on. And then this organization that you would think, Hey, they're never going to do that. Cause wasn't it Phil's pick? It was Phil's pick. And you're like, Phil's not going to take that guy. And they take them and it looks like it's going to work out. And then look, it's been a really bumpy road for him. So if it had a lot They added a big. And I always feel like one of the things we have to remind ourselves in any of these deals when they happen is we act

like there's all these better deals. We look at the Beal deal, right? And it's about the money. It's not about Beal's talent. It's not about the price. The price in a vacuum for Bradley Beal is an absurd price. Every team would be like, are you kidding me? Expiring Paul, non-guaranteed, sham it in some seconds. What are you, nuts? Expiring Paul, non-guaranteed, sham it in some seconds. What are you, nuts? Say yes before somebody wakes up. We have to say yes to this. But the other part of the Phoenix Beal thing is that you go, okay, do you realize what the options would be? If you're Phoenix, you're going, I know he's owed a ton of money. The price makes sense. But right now, we're so all in after Durant, we actually don't have that many options so back to the celtics if you look at like okay they need to add a third big okay well

who is it is it ayton's contract all right you know he stays healthier maybe with different coaching away from monty williams you get something but i just don't know that he's wired to be the guy that we all hoped he could be one day. So that I think is the real win is that you're upgrading a position where you add, you needed to add something and you add something that's so complimentary and so different. And really at its best, it's a pretty crazy statistical skillset combination of a guy where you're

like, okay, compare that to what else would have been out there for them. I know that's where you look at this being like one year with this guy, if he actually is healthy, like that's the part that I think is, you know, when you start thinking of all the reasoning for the teams and how they pull these deals off, you look around, I think that's where it's like, this is the best you can do. And it's actually a pretty good option. Yeah. I was feeling like it was heading more of the Aiton direction,

but Porzingis makes way more sense. The key point, and I think we're all aligned on this, if it's one year, let's see what this looks like. I'm good with that. If this becomes a $120 to $140 million commitment, which they really haven't been saddled like that since the Kemba contract. They don't really do stuff like that. Yeah, they don't. They like to have the flexibility. And my guess is, talk him into one year. He's never been, he's been on a good team in Dallas, but it was a weird team. It was that Luka, Helio-centric offense. He's never just been on a good normal team, right?

The Wizards situation this year was the first kind of normal basketball situation he'd been in since New York, which is like, yeah, man, get some shots up. We'll run some offense. We'll run some plays for you. In this situation, whole different story. So KFC, I just feel like I love the upside. I love getting the picks. And I think we all kind of feel like, as much as I love the guy, I feel like we're selling high on Smart here, if you're the Celtics. Like, this is, to get this price,

Tyus Jones and two firsts for Smart is basically the price for him. It's higher than I thought, I gotta say. Like, I thought maybe hard away in 10 for Dallas, like you'd have to take some sort of contract back. But for Memphis, they got rid of a good player, but the two picks, that Golden State

pick, it's a pretty interesting one. The West is loaded. He was worth more than I think I expected. What about you, Kelsey? Definitely worth more than I expected, especially after last season. I think it's, you know, for Memphis, they're 25 games without John Morant.

With Tyus Jones, he's on the one-year contract. Maybe they didn't feel good about retaining him. Maybe he wanted to move as well. So for Memphis, I think for them, you know, 25. And players in that range for Boston, and it previously was for Memphis, there's a lot of good players in that range. Guys who I think are going to be able to come in right away,

provide versatile defense, or at least some spot-op shooting. It's a good spot in the draft with a lot of good players in that range. Guys who I think are going to be able to come in right away, provide versatile defense or at least some spot-up shooting. It's a good spot in the draft with a lot of good quality upperclassmen. What about the highlight film guy from UConn that you love? Hawkins? No, not Jordan Hawkins. Who's the guy you tweeted about

today that you want to see with Jokic? Andre Jackson. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He'd be interesting for for boston but especially for denver i'd love andre jackson at denver but um no guys like that i mean there's a lot of those in that range so for memphis i think they're just making the bet hey marcus mark and br hopefully our upgrade over dylan brooks and he can be the guy who supplements the loss of John Morant earlier in the season and they're making that gamble that he's both of those things for them I think it's too high of a price to pay I would rather have kept

the draft pick capital and retain Tyus Jones Tyus Jones is such a steady point guard he's a stabilizer he's been one of the reasons why they've been so good in recent years anytime Jaws been out I mean, I, there has to be more to it there with them making that deal,

moving Tyus Jones when he's been arguably just as good, if not better than Marcus smart. I, cause I liked the draft of that range. I really liked the 20 to 45 range for Boston. You get 25 and 35 now and Peyton Pritchard possibly as a, as a player to dangle and trades. I wonder if they could move up or if they like Denver we see Denver now with three picks in that range they could keep all of those and add some young players to their core that can be early contributors

like Christian Brown was last year like they know Peyton Watson will be I wonder if Boston's thinking along the same lines here with a very pricey roster, especially if you re-sign Brown, that now hopefully you hit on one of those. And if you hit on one of them, then that's a massive win for your franchise. I think that's what could be happening at this point. Yeah, it said the payroll for them is going to be 176

as it stands right now, and that's before the Grant Williams thing. Yeah, I think that's a really key point about Denver because I think the model that Denver is looking at, and one of the reasons they won the title, is these cheaper free agents, the Jeff Green, Bruce Brown, they hit on both of those,

and then they hit on Christian Brown. I think if you're the Celtics, you have this roster all of a sudden where everybody is making 15 million bucks and up once this Grant Williams contract goes in. You have no cheapies anymore. you have this roster all of a sudden where everybody is making 15 million bucks and up. Once this Grant Williams contract goes in, you have no cheapies anymore. And at some point you have to have some young guys, the way the set, the way you have to construct the cap, you're going to need a couple, you know, you're either going to have to get lucky with the 25th pick or get lucky with a minimum guy or whatever. So I think that's part

of it. Um, we're going to take a break.. Priscilla, are you going to stay to talk about Memphis, or are you done? No, I would just add two things quick, sorry. But I love Hawkins more after evaluating for the draft than just watching him. His shooting, I don't even think he's going to last there because that's how special I think his shooting is, whether it's on the catch or it's off the dribble. And his shots, his points per shot, when he was guarded,

he was 1.33 points per shot, which he was guarded, he was 1.33 points per shot, which is in the 94th percentile of college basketball players. He was almost 0.2 points better guarded against contested shots than unguarded shots. He is actually a really special shot maker, but they had so much balance and so many options in that UConn team. I think it was easy to forget him at times. Granted, not for UConn fans, but I appreciated him more going back and watching everything. But the likelihood of a bad team finding a rotation player in the 20s is still pretty slim the likelihood of Boston with this roster finding a rotation guy who's a rookie at that pick I think you've got to think like a year or two down the road I don't even

know potentially I mean if it's this year it bonus, right? You mentioned Jackson and you're like, yeah, I like him with Jokic. Like I fucking like you with Jokic. So Jackson scares me a little bit as a player, just because he's not, you know, he's the passing, the toughness and all that kind of stuff. But like the NBA, you stick somebody out there that, you know, on a good team that you don't have to guard. Like sometimes you're working against yourself.

The reason I wanted to add one piece before I jump here is that I think part of the reaction, though, will be, wait, you traded your heart and soul. You traded the guy, the Celtic, Tommy Point. You traded that guy. It's a fair question, but if they were losing in the playoffs to Miami because they didn't have the mental toughness, then where was all that shit before?

Where was it the other years where I felt like they had a year-long stretch where you and I felt bad about it, Bill? We were like, you know what? This team's just soft, man. And then they turned that season around. So maybe it means mentally it's like, oh, no. That's fair to bring up. But it also could possibly be it's completely overrated and overblown

and it's not really that big of a deal. And the guys that are around it every single day had no problem moving on from them. So, I wanted your thoughts. Well, you'd think the Golden State series, they lose the last three games in the finals. In this Miami series, they lose three in a row. You know, they fell behind by Philly.

The mental toughness thing was a thing we talked about over and over again. What is this team missing? Why do they always have to have their backs to the wall before something good happens? And at some point, you got to shake that up. Because you could say, hey, did you just trade your toughest guy and bring in Przingis when toughness was a question? Yeah, true. That's certainly a criticism to be had. All right, Rosillo, thanks for hopping on. We're going to take a break and we're going to talk about the Memphis side of this.

And you're going to miss the Ewing Theory Wizards conversation, but I know your thoughts. Thanks, boys. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this, it's game day, all the gang's here. You're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're standing at the grill and the smell of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that. Or when you. Your stomach feels full. Miller Lite, it's your friend.

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It's the ability to reach further with access to over 1,400 lounges worldwide. Redefine possible with Business Platinum. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply. Visit mx.ca slash business platinum. All right, so the Memphis side of this, I don't know if you know this,

but your co-host on The Mismatch is a Memphis guy. And I'm sure you've talked about the Grizzlies with him once or twice. He is? Is Marcus Smart the most grizzly guy ever? It's like he was created in a lab. It's like they ordered him on eBay. It was like, hey, we have all these check marks of things that might work in our city with our team, with the way we play, with grit and grind. Let's have an expansion draft. Who could we just pick?

And the you'd pick mark is smart. I actually do think he's going to be awesome for them next year. I predict a huge chip on the shoulder, rejuvenation. I can't believe they traded me. I'm going to show them. And I could just see him being awesome. What do you think of him just for next year for them? Well, I mean, you want to really connect it here. Tony Allen goes from Boston to Memphis at age 29. Marcus Smart goes from Boston to Memphis at age 29. And with Tony

Allen going there with Boston at that time of his career, it felt like, okay, you know, this is, you know, it's time to move on from Tony Allen. Then he plays more years in Memphis than he did in Boston after a great start to his career with the Celtics. So with Marcus Smart, I definitely think he's going to have that chip on his shoulder. And he's probably going to come back and try to go for Defensive Player of the Year again, even though he's playing with Jaron Jackson Jr. At the least, their defense, if Smart can tap into more of what he did the prior season when he did win Defensive Player of the Year, they could be awesome on defense

because he's going to be able to replace Dylan Brooks and be a better offensive presence for Memphis. He's not going to, you know, he's going to chuck shots like Dylan Brooks, but he's better at scoring. He's far better at playmaking. He's going to be more like Dylan Brooks, but he's better at scoring. He's far better at playmaking. He's going to be more of a connective piece. And with Jaron Jackson Jr.'s development on offense, I think for them, they suddenly have a really interesting offense

and still be able to retain defense. Because even though all of us like Tyus Jones, Tyus Jones is not the defensive player that Marcus Smart can be. So for them, I think it makes sense in terms of the player you're adding. It's just the price feels like a bit too much today when we look at the value of those draft picks. But from Memphis's standpoint, I totally get it in terms of trying to instill that culture you're talking about that Tony Allen once did, but also just add some kind of scheme

flexibility where you're not losing something defensively when Tyus Jones is on there with Ja. You can still be strong and versatile and have guys who can make the right plays off the dribble as well. Yeah, I'm thinking, what was the problem with last year's Grizzlies team? Well, pretty easy, maturity. They needed more adults, right? So now Brooks goes, that's going to help them. We're going to have Post figured out my shit, John Morant, hopefully. It would be nice to have a normal version of him again.

Smart could help there too. And Smart could help there too. And Smart just being an adult with the different, same kind of thing with how the removing Smart from the Celtics team is going to change the energy

right whether it's going to be better or worse we'll see but they needed something to be different and I think for the Grizzlies adding him

the fans are going to fucking love him like they're going to love him and we're Verno's going to be saying to you like the first month oh my god I can't believe you gave us Marcus Smart.

You fucking idiots. But here's the thing. I was texting Bill. I was telling him, you guys are so fucking stupid. But here's the thing. I made this point a couple of times during this season, the way he plays, this would be my fair. I'm just point a couple of times during this season. The way he plays,

this would be my fear. I'm just planning this for the Grizzlies fans. Just remember I said this. I think he's going to have a huge chip on his shoulder here and et cetera, et cetera. That dude's body has been through a lot. We watched it. We watched his entire career on the Celtics. All the charges he takes, all the collisions, all the big guys that he goes against, the bigger guys that he is defending in the post and they're just like dropping their shoulder into him. I was, you're too young to remember Ben Coates, but I use this analogy at some point last season when Ben Coates was the best tight end the Patriots ever had until Gronk. And he was awesome. He was awesome in video games. And every time we threw him the ball, he would just get hit by three guys and he would drag,

he would just drag these three guys down. And it was incredible. And guess what? By like 1998, it wasn't as incredible anymore because he took so many hits. And that's my fear with smart. Like we've seen this with other basketball players. These guys that play this style, it's not a style that lasts into your mid thirties. You know, there's definitely a shorter shelf life for it. And I felt like there was a lot of wear and tear with him last year. He had the ankle injury at one point, but defensively, he just couldn't stay in front of guards

in the same way anymore. So the guy that I voted for defensive player two years ago, that guy was kind of gone. It popped back up a couple times. There was that one Philly playoff game when he was just awesome. And it looked like last year's Marcus. But for the most part, you know, you think like Miami couldn't stop Jimmy Butler.

Wasn't really even guarding him that much. Philly, Harden had those two games where he torched the Celtics. Harden was somebody smart, used to play really well against. So there was a lot of red flags with him last year. And that's what makes me think if you're the Grizzlies, just be careful. The guy who's like, hey man, you should buy my car. It's great. Nah, nah, you don't need to check it out. Just take it. Nah, it's in perfect condition. Never had an accident. And then you get the car and things start going wrong. Well, that's why it's a gamble for memphis you're you're betting if

you're zach kleinman their general manager you're betting that you get the version of marcus smart you're talking about that he can get healthy and return to the guy who won defensive player of the year and for years was an all defensive caliber guy a stopper against guards a guy who could battle against bigs i mean remember like he was one somebody defending chris taps porzingis very effectively right like they'd stick him on kp never mind like true biggs he could do it all and you're betting that happens however you know like another patriots example here this could be the celtics letting a guy go right as the decline is beginning.

And we saw the signs of it this past season, as you said, with the, he just didn't have that quickness moving laterally on the perimeter. So I think for Boston, it makes sense from their side of things too, where if they think that this is the beginning of a Marcus Smart decline, and if that's the case, well, I mean, it's a massive win for Boston and it's a loss for Memphis. And if it's not, it could end it's a massive win for boston and it's a loss for memphis and if it's not it could end up being a mutual win for both teams so i think logically it makes sense especially for boston with the picks that they're getting and considering everything we talked about

with kp what he provides but i get it philosophically from memphis's perspective for like a lot of different reasons and i yeah and what do they care about picks in the 20s they made so many of them at this point you can spare two of them it's sort of like oklahoma city and like indiana and a lot of these teams that are consolidating they just have so much so many picks or in memphis's case they have so much young talent on their roster i mean that guy may never play at all they cut a guy they drafted during the season so i mean like i think they're in that point uh where like like these other teams they just have too many picks or too many good young players where for them it's a diminished value asset whereas for boston it's

very valuable to add a young guy on your bench that you hope turns into something i'm gonna get corny for one second i'm'm older than you. I've rooted for a lot of Boston teams. He was one of the best people I've rooted for on the Celtics. Just character, personality, the amount of shit that he gave game to game, the connection with the fans. And I always felt bad anytime being like, man, I wonder if we should trade him or any of that stuff. Cause he was such a good guy. He was such a good role model. People just loved him. He was an awesome guy. He was in a lot of big playoff games. And you think when he comes to the team, it's a little disappointing because I think it was the

seventh pick and they were hoping to get in the top three and the latter didn't shake out. And they pick him and he's just an awesome Celtic who gave a shit from day one. He was hugely impactful and he played in an unbelievable amount of games. I mean, KFC, he played in how many playoff games? 108. 108 playoff games.

Like think about that. He played, he played, uh, 18 and 17, 15 in 2018, 17 and 20, 21 and 22 and 20 and 23.

Like really durable. I think he played hurt a lot. I think sometimes he had injuries that we probably didn't even know he had. He was the ultimate gamer. And he loved being a Celtic. And I think the fans really appreciated him. I appreciated him. This was about as long as you would have thought.

He came onto the team in 2014. This was nine years. I would have said the over-under was probably seven and a half. But I think the Grizzly fans are going to love him and I will always root for this guy. So that's the end of my corny monologue. Well, to add to your corniness, I mean, Marcus Smart, when my dad was going through chemotherapy,

signed a jersey for my dad. And once I get that frame, that's going to be hanging on my wall wherever I live for the rest of my life. I've always appreciated that from Marcus. He lost his mother to cancer like I lost my dad and like he's just always been a a good person and i i also have felt bad when there's been criticisms of marcus smart but like we get a you know we get to analyze the game fairly um but he's always been a unbelievable human being and for boston the

way he played over the years for longest tenured guy, you know, after his sophomore year at Oklahoma state where member like him, he like threw the kick the chair and there is these questions about him and all that. And the Celtics get him and he kind of, we saw him return to the player that he, he has become a defensive player of the era, a durable player, a respected player. And I hope he continues thriving for Memphis. I hope this isn't like the beginning of a drop off i hope he's kind of what they need and he helps elevate that team

and supports jaron jackson jr and john morant i hope it's kind of a repeat of the tony allen era in memphis because i always loved tony allen too i love ta he was awesome and the fact he continued with memphis for years and was part of so many great grit and grind teams. I hope Marcus Smart, you know, can do that for this new Memphis team. And maybe they'll be actually going to go further than that Grizzlies team. But who knows with John Moran, the talent that he interesting. Yeah. Sometimes when your favorite team makes a trade, you know, the human nature, because we're all selfish, you just, I hope that guy sucks on the new team. I hope he doesn't do as well. Like you just, you know, it's like if you date somebody and then you break up and they're dating the next person, it's like, oh, I hope that one doesn't work out. It's just the way we are.

We're a little vindictive. But there's certain guys where you're like, man, I'm that one doesn't work out. It's just the way we are. We're a little vindictive. But there's certain guys where you're like, man, I'm going to fucking root for that guy. And I don't even care if we lose the trade, if it works out for him. I'll always root for that guy. And one of the things that I loved about him, he had a pretty tough life

that he was pretty open about in a lot of different ways because I think he felt like it would help other people and other people who grew up or were having a hard time or kids and stuff. So he was always really transparent about it and the mistakes he made. And I think to, when you have athletes, like we always talk and goes back to like Charles Barkley about, am I a role model? Am I not a role model? Like, I do think he took that stuff seriously And I think it had an impact. So I think of him in Memphis,

and I think Memphis is going to get him the most. If you could have picked any team in the league, that fan base and that organization, they'll just get him. So I hope that it works out. This is one of those trades that I hope everybody's happy. It's like the divorce, where you're just like,

ah, I really root for both of those people to find happiness. The Washington standpoint of this, so they lose Beal and they lose Porzingis and they add this Tyus Jones, Chris Paul combo, which are two trade assets, but it's pretty clear what they're doing. They're going to try to be the worst team in the East. There's no scenario

where they actually might not tank, right? I don't think so. No. Are we 100% sure this is direction? Because I'm like 99% sure. But then I also wouldn't be shocked if they're like, you know what? We just

didn't love that bill contract. And we didn't want to pay Porzingis $36 million. We basically stripped $86 million off our cap and maybe they're going to do that weird Presti thing from the kind of the post-Russ era where he's basically collecting assets, but the team is also weirdly

competitive. I can't decide if they're going to be a weirdly competitive team or not. I mean, they're probably going to lose Kuzma, so that means they're going to lose their three competitive team or not. I mean, they're probably going to lose Kuzma. So that means they're going to lose their three best players from last season when they were not good with those three best players. So losing 70 points.

Yes. I'd be surprised if they're good. I'd be surprised if they're a play-in team. I was just like, could they be one of those overachieving teams where we're like, wait, what's going on here? Because now they'll have the room to sign one more person. But I'm with you. It seems like they're going to bottoming out would be the safe bet here.

I think the only way would be if with their eighth pick in the drafts, that player is really good right away. And suddenly, Denny Abdi gets a little better. And Corey Kispert is taking three more threes per game. He's shooting over 40 and johnny johnny davis is alive yeah he actually davis has a pulse he wakes up i mean if those things all happen then maybe they're you know competing for the nine or ten in the play-in but i i just don't see i think they want to they want to be bad and they want to be in a position to absorb

big contracts for some of their expiring deals. Like that Landry-Shammett contract they got from the Suns, that's an interesting deal because it's got an option and then it's non-guaranteed. I'd expect them to look for a lot more expiring deals like that so they can just be flexible with the opportunities provided, whether it's signing a free agent next summer or whether it's absorbing a big contract and getting more assets in a trade. I think Michael Winger taking that job, he's going with clean slate here. Let's build it up for the first time when they've just been trying to get the sixth seed, get the five seed and just make the playoffs. By the way, the most fun way to be a GM, where you're basically like, I'm stripping my team.

I'm going to do weird trades. I'll take your bad contract that you don't want. Give me a pick. You start making weird picks with your draft picks. Like, yeah, I'll take the seven foot four guy from freaking Portugal that just started playing basketball two years ago. Sounds good. We'll take him at number 38.

You have no downside and no pressure on basically anything you're doing. that just started playing basketball two years ago. Sounds good. We'll take him at number 38. You've no downside and no pressure on basically anything you're doing. Wait, before we go, here's my last question. Then we're going to go. And for the record, we're going to be doing, this is part one. At the very least, we're doing one more part after the, probably like after the top 20 tomorrow.

But if there's another big trade, that will be part two. And then the draft will be part three. probably like after the top 20 tomorrow. But if there's another big trade, that will be part two and then the draft will be part three. The Celtics, I'm just starting to get excited now about number 25 and number 35. They also have this Grant Williams sign and trade possibility.

And the question here is, and I don't, do you remember how the rules work? Can they sign and trade him before July 1st or can they agree on anything or does it have to be July 1st? So they can't even like pick the guys

for the other team or any of that stuff. Well, I mean, yeah, theoretically I mean, you could be having those conversations in theory, but because I think they are. So my question is like, well, I mean, of course, everybody think they are. So my question is like... Well, I mean, of course, everybody is. Yeah.

Well, with 25 and 35, is it unrealistic to think they could trade 25 in Grant Williams and get up to like number 10 or number seven? Like Indiana's at seven. They want a veteran. Probably too much. I'm probably overvaluing Grant Williams,

but also with Dallas, like we know Dallas wants, it's going to be really hard for them to add a free agent unless they can attach that contract with something. Maybe Grant Williams isn't good enough, but I just wonder, are they going to dangle him with 25 and 35

to try to edge up somehow? I think Pritchard is the guy that they're using to dangle in some of those deals. That would get you like 17, maybe 18. Yeah, I mean, I still think Pritchard's not like a super high value guy, but he's a solid role player. He's a spark plug coming off the bench.

So if a team feels like they need that, I think he's at least like equivalent to an early second-round draft pick. So if you look at it like that, where it's 25, 34, and 35 instead of Peyton Pritchard, you could get up somewhere. I think the teams to keep in mind for where they could target a trade-up is Miami at 18. Obviously, you just face them in the postseason, but Miami, there's been conversations about trade down the rockets at 20 but i don't think they want to consolidate they just want to move out and then the nets at 22 the nets are trying to trade up with 21 and 22 but if they're unable to do that they could move one of those picks in a trade down or trade out so other than that like i think atlanta would be the other one at 15,

but they seem to be wanting to more trade up rather than trade down. And the Lakers are, you know, at 17, that's the one other spot to keep in consideration as well. There's been, you know, multiple reports about them being a team that could trade down for multiple picks. So I think Lakers, Heat, Nets are the three main ones I'd keep in mind as a trade-off spot for the Celtics. I'm already on the record with Pritchard. He could have played in the finals for Denver. He could have played 10 minutes for them as a backup point guard. I do think that guy is a playoff backup point guard on the right team

if the right team just trusted him. He can shoot. He's unafraid. And his minutes got just yanked around in Boston. It was hard to see, but I do think he's a backup point guard on a good team. Is it the right team now with Boston? Without Marcus Mark there?

Yeah, maybe. Especially with as Brogdon insurance. But that's the other thing with this, with everything that happened today is there was six hours there where it seemed like Brogdon was going to the Clippers. So now how do you unwind that one like yo sorry about that

yeah so we're good right you're coming back when you come to training camp is there something that we don't know about that's recent or is this just like ever since the draft when Malcolm Brogdon was drafted there was concerns about that his foot was like

made of glass, that it was a, that it was a time taking bomb. And that eventually it was just going to suffer an injury that it would sideline him forever. And he's, there was a Clippers physical thing where they were like, I don't know.

I'm not sure. And maybe these teams just decided to go another way. Yeah. But if you're the Clippers and you can turn Marcus Morris on the 30th pick into Brogdon, you're doing that. That makes me think maybe they were like, hey, well, if we don't like the physical, can we keep the 30th

pick? Might have been one of those type of things. I don't know. Well, we'll see. I don't think the Celtics are done. No, they're not. That's my final takeaway. Something's going to happen with Grant. And I think with 25 and 35, they're going to get a little frisky as this goes.

All right, KOC. KOC, we have ourselves some drama already. This is good. One trade in the books. We're both on call tomorrow like doctors all day. We're going to have Tate Frazier with us during the draft. But if anything else happens tomorrow, we'll just throw up another emergency pod.

This podcast was produced by Kyle Creighton, who was in an Uber the entire time, and Steve Cerruti, who we woke out of a deep sleep to join us on the Zoom. Thank you to those guys. Thank you to Rosillo too. And we will see you on this feed, I guess, by the time you listen to this a little bit later today.

Thanks. We'll see you next time.