The Bill Simmons Podcast - NBA Finals Angles With David Jacoby and Kevin Wildes. Plus, Jon Bernthal’s Return to the Pod.

Episode Date: June 1, 2022

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by David Jacoby and Kevin Wildes to discuss Game 7 of the Eastern Conference finals, Jimmy Butler’s 3-point attempt, and having trouble rooting against Steph Curry and the Warriors (1:42), before talking about the best daily sports show fodder, why the Cowboys are still America’s team, NBA expansion, how the league would look if it adopted a relegation format (17:43), Half-Baked Ideas, Finals predictions, and more (41:54). Finally, Bill is joined by actor Jon Bernthal to discuss his role as Wayne Jenkins in HBO’s ‘We Own This City.’ They discuss meeting Wayne Jenkins, working (and arguing) with David Chase, wild stories from the set, filming ‘King Richard,’ being a sports dad, and more (1:04:13). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: David Jacoby, Kevin Wildes, and Jon Bernthal Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, going to talk to my old friends, Kevin Wilds, Dave Jacoby, about the NBA storylines, whether the Cowboys are the best sports talk fodder we have and a whole bunch of other stuff. And then Jon Berthal as well. It's all next. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet it all. We've been doing pretty well on million-dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the Chargers are going to be good.

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Must be legal drinking age. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. Put up a new Rewatchables on Monday night. It was a special episode. We went through all the reader email suggestions for new categories for the podcast. Then me and Chris Ryan and Sean Fantasy went through them, picked the ones we liked and kind of was like a selection show. It was fun though. I had a went through them, picked the ones we liked. It was like a

selection show. It was fun, though. I had a good time doing it. You can hear that. On Wednesday, we are doing a second episode. We're going to do Copland. Ray Liotta passed away last week. It's our second favorite Ray Liotta performance. A good movie in general. The anniversary is coming up.

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Coming up next, Dave Jacoby, Kevin Wouts, talking sports. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, taping this part of the podcast. It is a little past 11 o'clock a.m. Pacific time. My old friends Kevin Wilds and Dave Jacoby are here. They're in the grind of daily sports content. The grind. Come up with some topics.

Oh, come on. Come up with some angles. Let's go. And now finally the grind has slowed down. We have four days until the finals. And now, now you get a little creative,

got to come up with some finals angle nobody else had. I thought a fun talk show topic was whether Jimmy Butler should have pulled up for a three or gone to the basket. I've been thinking about this a lot the last two days. I said on Sunday night, as a Celtic fan, just in

the moment, in that split second when he realized he was shooting a three, I was relieved because I was so worried he was going to go to the basket, bounce off Al Horford, do the thing where he clears out with his left arm, gets the layup and the three point play. And when he pulled up, having put all 48 minutes, I thought that was, that was a relief for me. Where did you guys stand? Cause I know that on the talk shows, this was a topic. I had the exact opposite feeling. As soon as he pulled up for a three, I was terrified because the Heat had the puncher's chance. Like, all right, if Jimmy goes crazy, the Heat can win. And I was like, the Celtics were winning wire to wire at that point. And I'm like, oh my God,

here it comes. Jimmy Butler is going to throw the big right hand and we're going to be out. And he misses. So the fact that I was so terrified and nervous, I thought it was the right move. Also, let Jimmy be Jimmy. Let superstars do awesome stuff. I don't want to hear like, kick it out to max. Drive and then kick it out. Okay. I know history. Steve Kerr made a shot and John Paxson made a shot. I don't care. I wanted Jimmy to take the shot. He missed it. It stunk but I was totally fine with it. I was pro-Jimmy

decision making. Chicobe, 100% you have to take the shot. The only thing I disagree with you two is I did not like this conversation. I was like, oh, we're going to have to talk about this stupid shot in like three, four days. It's like, oh God, he hit the exact same shot in the first half he walked into it he's exhausted he's played 47 minutes and 49 seconds of basketball consecutively it just

looks like work like driving to orford that's just a lot of work and then you're gonna go to overtime like no chance that and but it also in the moment it really felt like everything was falling apart for the celtics they're just trying to just get they're just trying to get to the buzzer just get there and then it's stopping a score and stopping a score and stopping a score there's so much momentum that when he rose up to take that shot i really thought it went in like i was i was shocked when it rimmed out like the way it did but horford doesn't get enough credit for closing out a three-point shooter, immediately turning around and getting himself in position

to get that little carom rebound. Like, I think that was a play that doesn't get enough attention. Good take. Well, he also busted his ass to get back on defense. That game finished. I spent 15 minutes prepping for the pod. Russo and I just went live. I was still kind of reeling.

And then afterwards, kind of relaxed, I was catching up on a whole bunch of texts. And I was like, was I too... Was I a little too negative on that podcast because the Celtics made the finals? Should I have been more happy and less drained like we had just survived this fall from an 11-story building

and somehow landed in a dumpster with garbage bags that survived. And all of a sudden, I'm like, I'm alive. And then I watched the last four minutes again. And I was like, oh my God, this was like game six of the 86 World Series as a basketball game. There's no timeouts.

It's just, it's three straight minutes of another 98, 93 timeout. They come out of the timeout, Drew sits at three, just watching it's three straight minutes of, Oh, and then 98, 93 timeout. They come out of the timeout. Drew sits at three, just watching it in real time. I, I honestly think that would have been the worst game seven loss in the history, in the history of the NBA.

And I, and I went through and I was like, what was the worst game seven loss in this? This was it. There's no worst one, especially with this Celtics team that had, you know, this was now the fourth swing to get to the finals. And if they don't get it this time, my God. So that, so I was actually like, wow, maybe I should have been a little more, a little more like crazed after the pot that I was. I don't know. John Schumann posted this on Twitter that when Jimmy tied the Raptors

when he was with the Sixers, and he was four seconds left, that set up the Kawhi shot. Do you think Jimmy was thinking, you know what, I did this once and got the two and Kawhi beat me. I'm not going to let it happen again. You know, I heard,

I saw Perk and Stephen A had a good argument about this yesterday because Perk was like, I played sports. You're not thinking about legacy, big picture, history, anything. It's just everything's happening so fast. You're just like, oh, here's a chance to shoot. So I shot.

I do feel like there was a hero ball element to it, though. You just have to. It's like he's in a sports movie. He's been crushing it for two straight games. And the opportunity is sitting there for a split second. And he's like, you know what? I'm going to take the three. I guarantee, though, I know what they said after.

I know Spoh was like, oh, yeah, I'll take that shot every time. If you actually watch that play, he should have gone to the basket and bounced off Horford. He would have gotten a foul. He just would have. They were not going to call that foul. I don't think they would have called it. Jacoby, well, they were calling every other foul for miami jacoby what what did jaylen what was his uh

15 years of nba player take on this gotta shoot that shot said you gotta shoot it you get you get a chance like that to go ahead you know like you're there's a you go in into the arms a lot of things can happen ball gets slapped away horford's really crafty he had that great block on strews earlier like it's not a guarantee you're gonna get two points not guaranteed you're gonna get fouled we have a chance to go ahead another thing i liked about the shot was there's still 11 seconds left so in theory they could have fouled you know maybe maybe something's go one for two he's kind of giving himself a little bit of breathing room to get the ball back and get another possession you possession with maybe a chance to go ahead or tie. It's not a bad chance. I like the shot

in the moment. One of the things that would make that collapse such a bad loss was game six. We forgot about game six. I did not expect to be back in Miami for game seven. You remember after game five, I was like, this is over. Celtics-Warriors. I'm getting my Celtics-Warriors takes together.

You know what I mean? I was like, wait a second. We're in a word of one possession game in game seven. Like, how did we end up here? What happened? It's the other thing I glossed over on the pod on Sunday. We mentioned it. It wasn't like we didn't give it credit, but how huge the Marcus smart free throws were. When you think about some of the big games in the history of the league and conference

finals or finals where the guy goes one or two in that spot, or maybe he bricks both of them. Jalen in game six, miss two, they would have gone up one on one 99 and smart had just missed. It felt like 17 straight threes, even though it was only three and he missed like a runner. But,

uh, but he aced those. It, to me, it was like the personification of eight years of Marcus. It was the whole package. He was really good in that game. He was playing incredibly hurt.

He was, I guess, taking the right shot each time. And yet, it was unraveling in real time, which has happened in these Marcus games in the past. And then he ends up making the big play in the end. Eight years with this guy, Wilds. I definitely probably have... in the past and then he ends up making the big play in the end. Eight years with this guy Wilds. Definitely probably have I would say he's taken like three months off my life. Long term. Lifetime.

Yeah, but he's given you a... Is he your favorite Celtic? Interesting. My favorite Celtic on this team is Horford. Really? I'm all in on it. I love Al Horford. I do. He's become... When I was a little kid,

we had Paul Silas, who I barely remember, but he was my dad's favorite Celtic. And then in the 80s, we had DJ. DJ was that classic, just a great teammate, didn't care about stats as much. Those guys I just love. Bob Ryan made this point.

He could have played with any Celtic team in history. Oh, I like love. And he is like, Bob Ryan made this point. He could have played with any Celtic team in history. Oh, I like that. He could have been on the Russell teams. He could have been the power forward. He could have been on the 70s teams.

Easily could have played with Cowens and Silas. And on the 80s teams, would have fit in seamlessly. And he's just like the definition of a Celtic. At least what I think. You like that, Chico?

The Horfissance. Horfissance is great. Last year, he didn't play. The Thunder were just like, it's cool. Don least what I think. You like that, Jacob? The Horfessance is great. Like, last year, he didn't play. The Thunder were just like, it's cool. Don't worry about it. We'll pay you.

Don't worry about it. It's fine. Could have been picked up by anybody. And then he goes back to the Celtics and he's like the most important defender

on one of the best defensive teams in the league, if not the best defensive team in the league. And that's another reason that Jimmy shot. Like, Horford could get a block there.

Horford could slap the ball out of his hands like that's not a gimme so like I think if you're Jimmy you've got enough space to rise up and fire and go ahead like I think a hundred times out of a hundred you take that Jimmy shot I really do I have a little Kyle Lowry PTSD even two days later

I I've never seen somebody with more tricks it was like watching I don't even know how to describe it. Like Grant Williams... Three minutes or two minutes left, whatever, when the Celtics were falling apart. Tatum makes this perfect pass to Grant Williams,

who's on the baseline with the ball. Lowry's under the basket. He's got Jalen Brown on the other side of Lowry. He's taller than Lowry. All he has to do is either just kind of go in and lay it off the backboard or throw an alley-oop to Jalen. Lowry had the Celtics so psyched out

by the end of game seven. He was so scared of the charge. He kind of didn't know what to do and kind of went at Lowry. Lowry just stripped him and took the ball. If you watch it, it's like one of the worst plays of the entire playoffs.

It's like, you were right there. Just put it in. But Lowry was just, he was like a horror movie villain. He had so many tricks. He's pulling people. He's pulling jerseys. He's pulling arms. He's getting these charge calls.

He's flying backwards before the guy even hits him. You know what I would always call if I was a ref, Jacoby? I would call it like, yeah, I mean, you hit him in the face. Lowry was really good at playing defense. Someone's close to his jaw or close to his face at all. Oh, he's flying back. I would call it. I'm like, well, obviously, he's flying back.

That's a foul. Now, did he get hit 100% of the time? No. Offense, he's grabbing his neck. He's on the ground. Maybe I would watch him on replay. I'm like, did he get hit? I need another angle of this.

I need a specific Kyle Lowry cam before I accuse him of faking this injury. But I liked it. I like anybody that's sort of... I like the old crafty veteran. I'm a sucker for that. They really were. I would hate to play against him. I would hate to have him defending me i would get so mad i would just kick him in the stomach like every time he he does the blocker charge thing and he like falls over he reminds me of

like a baby on a changing table you know what i mean just like arms and legs flapping around he's kind of got the same like body type as a newborn baby it's just like he's on the ground twice per possession i don't know how he ends up doing it, but he falls over twice the possessions. It's funny. We always hear about like how shot blockers can change the game even if they had two blocks, but they

challenge like 10 or they, you know, or somebody who's driving toward the basket saw them and did like a rush pull up versus like challenging them. And it's like, how do you quantify that? That that's why big guys always win the defensive player of the years. It's really rare to see a guard have that kind of power over the other team, where if he's lurking near the basket, they're just worried about the charge so much. It actually changes. He's a six foot fat guy. I mean, he's 20 pounds overweight and it didn't

matter. Jason Kidd was, I think, the best version of that for me. He became so good at getting charges that it would almost psych the other team out as they're driving to the basket. But I'm not going to miss him. I'm not going to miss the bam out of bio moon shots with one second left in the

shot clock. I'm not going to miss Struis going 0 for 100, but somehow would always make the biggest shot of the game. Thank God that team's going away.

Now I have to work up some real animosity to this Warriors team. This is what I want to talk about. It's going to be hard. We talked about it a tiny bit on Sunday.

I want to go deeper. How do I root against Steph Curry? I know I will, but God. That's how I feel. I like that guy. I feel the exact same. Like know I will, but God. So I feel. I like that guy. I feel the exact

same. I used to not like Paul O'Neill. And I'm sure if Paul O'Neill's listening, I'm sure he's a nice guy. But he was just like an easy guy sort of not to like. And I didn't like him not in any real way, but I was just actively rooting against him. You sports hated him.

Yeah, I didn't really dislike him. But at the moment, I was like, ah, Paul, he's always arguing. I really like Steph. And I really like Draymond. And I'm rooting hardcore for Klay. I'm rooting for Andrew Wiggins. I like Steve Kerr.

He's a nice guy. I'm rooting for Steve Kerr. I'm rooting for Jordan Poole. That's a good story. I've got Kerr. He's a nice guy. Rooting for Steve Kerr. I'm like, I'm rooting for Jordan Poole. That's a good story. I've got the answer. I'm rooting for everybody. Pia Lizza? You go anti-Lakob. Anti-San Francisco.

Oh, thousand points of light? Yeah, you go there. You just go anti-Lakob. You go against... It's like the Darth Vader. You know what I mean? He's the evil overl's who's bragging about how he wants to go to 50 of the finals moving forward and he's light years ahead like your anti-lake up is the fix that's the only thing can we go even further maybe it's anti-big tech yeah now we're talking about it blue Boston against the Silicon Valley Big Tech.

Yeah. All this Facebook watching us and all the crazy shit that's happened. And how Big Tech's ruined culture and TikTok. And how our kids are trapped to their phones. And the Warriors symbolize all this. I love this. I can talk about something this fast. Celtics blue collar. It's the Warriors' fault that my son's on Roblox eight hours a day.

I like this. It's like Thompson's fault. All the people sitting in the stands game, what are the problem with America? Yeah, this is good. I like this. So you go against the players, you go against what the Warriors stand for. You can't go against the players. The players are perfect.

They're so lovable. I love all of them so much. You can't go that way. You have to go against the city and against the ownership. Well, wait a second. Draymond's pretty easy to root against if you're playing against him in a playoff series. I think he's in that Marcus Smart kind of that phylum of you love him if he's

on your team. You don't like him when he's on the other team. Do we get live pods after every game? For finals? I don't like him when he's on the other team. Do we get live pods after every game? For finals? I don't... Yeah, it's possible. At least for a couple of them. Sometimes the dates don't match up. But yeah, the live... I didn't know if I

was going to make it for that Game 7 pod if they lost. I've never been in a situation of having to... We had some Patriots post-game pods after the Eagles game, sucked it up, did a pod there, but the Pats had won a few. The Celtics won. It felt like the whole...

This whole era was going to completely collapse if they blew that game. I don't know how that... I think those would be your best pods, probably. When I'm just traumatized? Yeah, I mean, that's like... I have found our best shows on First Things First is like the Chiefs lose or like a Knicks pick loses.

It's like, ah, the ratings for the first quarter. Like what's going to happen? Yeah. If the Celtics lose, you know, I think it's good for you career wise. Sorry. That's just, it might be bad personally, but you know, that's silver lining.

I'm just telling you, if you really get into it and then it's like, ah, Bill Simmons devastated. I'm going to tune into that one. Sobbing, sob that's silver lining. I'm just telling you, if you really get into it and then it's like, ah, Bill Simmons devastated, I'm going to tune into that one. Sobbing. Sobbing in the air. Let's take a quick break and I have another topic for you guys. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is

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Redefine possible with Business Platinum. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. All right, so you guys are doing the daily shows. I want to power rank fodder, easy fodder topics that just work. Chum in the water.

Because Wilds was saying today, somehow you end up doing Lakers stuff today. Yeah. And I remember when I did countdown. Yeah. I remember when I did countdown the first year, 12-13, the Lakers weren't even good. Nobody thought they were a contender. And it would seem like every other show, the producers were like,

all right, so Lakers lead block. And I'm like, they're 35 and 33. We could talk, but it's just a Lakers play. So I'm going to give you Lakers. I'm going to give you Cowboys. You know all the principles. LeBron Legacy. Rogers.

The Evil Patriots. What else? Wilds, what do you know like it's segment four. There's not a lot going on that day that you could just throw on there and it's just going to work. Okay, so I'm going to give you an outside the box answer. And I'm going to incorporate Jacoby in food news.

So Juliet on food news did a bit on, I think it was blueberry bagels. Was it Jacoby? That she said blueberry bagels weren't a bagel. And she did like a 12 minute. I agree with her. That's a great take. Yeah, great take. weren't a bagel. And she did like a 12-minute- I agree with her. That's a great take. Yeah, great take. It's a good take.

And she was so fired up about it and so passionate. It was just like a must listen. Whether or not you feel strongly about blueberry bagels or not. So this is a long way of saying, I think when there's nothing to talk about, you figure out what you feel the strongest about and that comes through to the

audience. I would rather do something... I just feel strongly about Mac Jones, so I can always go to that well that I feel like he is being unfairly treated. So that is kind of a combo. In shape, Mac Jones. Skinny Mac Jones. Oh my god. Did you see him? Yeah, guess what? Best shape of a combo. In shape, Mac Jones. Skinny Mac Jones. Oh my god. Did you see him?

Yeah, guess what? Best shape of his life. And he stayed 20 minutes after practice. First one there, last one to leave. Him and Joe Judge, oh my gosh. As soon as the rooster crows, it's a race to the parking lot to see if you can get

there early. I thought I was the leader of Mac Jones Island, but I'm just not. Wilds is the leader. He's got a big banana around his head. He's holding a torch. I bought my youngest son, Billy, loves stuffed animals.

He's got like 70 stuffed animals. I try to call the herd, I think is the nice way to say it, where I'm like, man, we got too many. The room can't support all of these stuffed animals. One got to go. So I'll take one. I will hide it and put it in my room to see if he notices.

He will come up to his room and see that there are 68 stuffed animals. And I'll be like, where's Pinky or whatever it is. So I got to reintroduce. So this is me saying, I bought a baby goat stuffed animal and had to hide it from him because I knew he would commandeer it. I'm like, no, not this one. It's like Goonies. This one's mine. I brought this little baby goat to the show and I stroke his small beard when I'm talking about Mac Jones and the Mac Jones trajectory. I can get going on Mac Jones. You play the music, I'm going to dance. I can get going on Mac Jones. You play the music, I'm

going to dance. I get fired up about Mac Jones. Trevor Lawrence, he's going to be great, but Mac Jones is going to regress. Okay. Yeah, sure. Mac Jones, he was in the Pro Bowl. He'll regress, but Zach Wilson will be better. Everyone will be better, except Mac Jones. Okay. Sure, everybody. Sorry. I'm sorry.

Chicobs, why don't we even go like, if you switch Joe Burrow and mac jones is the super bowl season any different oh i like that i like that the trevor lawrence i remember being on camera and being like trevor lawrence is the the best prospect i've ever seen in my entire generation yeah i was just like can't miss guaranteed success and then you watch in the nfl you're like ah not that great. Another terrible take of mine is Steph Curry coming out of college. I was like, too small. That stuff's not going to work.

This is not going to work in the NBA. I remember before the draft, that was my angle on Steph Curry. I was like, no chance this works in the big boy NBA. And then he becomes like this generational Hall of Famer, changes the game forever. You take that take and you throw it toward Jimmer for that, and it's right.

You were a year early on Jimmer. But we were talking Lakers and Nets after the All-Star break, and there's a part of me in the back of my mind I'm like, the Nets just lost 11 straight basketball games. The Lakers are on the verge of not being in the playoffs. Why is our entire

A-block Nets and Lakers just because of the star power? Let's go back to the original topic. I think Lakers-Cowboys are eternal no matter what the record is and what's going on. I feel like they've surpassed everything else.

I think the Yankees used to be up there a million years ago, but the national baseball conversations have just kind of gone out the window until we get to September or October. I think for me, up there a million years ago, but you know, the national baseball conversations have just kind of gone, gone out the window until we get to like September, October. But I think for me, it's for me,

it's Lakers and Cowboys and then a drop off to whoever else we want to do. Can I do a sidebar? Yeah. Bill, sometimes things happen. Me and Kevin have talked about this in sports media, where it's like something happens. You're like,

I can't wait to hear what that person's take on this sports story is i need to know bill simmons what you think of the jock peterson injured reserve slap from tommy fam i need to know your because it's it's the perfect like confluence of inside fantasy football and like interpersonal relations, workplace relations and violence. So, I mean, those are the things I really want to hear your take on. So please grant the audience your thoughts on this incident.

So thanks for asking. Um, to me, it's, it's too hard to say a hundred percent what happened. I still feel like we don't have the whole story. So then I'm just going to gravitate toward who do I want to be associated with?

Because we clearly have to pick sides. There's no way to... You got to pick a side. You got to go fam or you got to go jock. I just thought jock seemed like a loser with the whole thing. I thought his interviews were really rambling and weird. I didn't like that he was showing his phone with text

to reporters. And it's just like, I don't want to be associated with Team Jack. On the other hand, you have Fam who's talking about how he's a big dog in Vegas and the casinos love him. And I'm like, all right, maybe he's in the wrong, but I just I'd rather be on that side. I don't feel good about either side, but that would be my pick.

What do you have, Wilds? I mean, I'm going to be consistent with this take, and I have been for over a decade now. I do not care about your fantasy football team at all. That's great. It's a great thing. In order to go to sleep, you can put on songs of humpback whales singing to each other in the Pacific Ocean,

or just any one of your buddies talking about their last weekend in fantasy football and what they needed and what the other guy needed. I'm out on it. So the fact that baseball players are slapping each other in the outfield, still registering on my... I love fantasy football, but it's just like your dreams. I don't care about your dreams. I'm sure they were interesting to you. And my dreams are interesting to me. It doesn't cross over. I'm not interested. I'm trying to be

passionately not interested. Where'd you land, Jacoby? When I saw the Jock Peterson explanation, and I clicked on it, and it's like three and a half minutes. I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I'm like, what's going on with him? And then I'm watching it and he's just talking himself in circles about the Indian Reserve and this and that.

It's like, this is the most guilty thing I've ever heard. What league are you in? If it takes you three and a half, it's like in the ESPN settings that we have, you're allowed to do it. But in this other one, I was like, the explanation was so long and detailed that it just screams,ting practice? Just guys standing in the outfield. You're 300 feet away. Is just everything videotaped now? Like just people just have phones and they're just taping everything at all times. How would somebody even think to have that? It wasn't even a security cam.

I don't know. Interesting. So you think the fam was like, watch this. No. Yeah. Or. Yeah. I don't know.

I don't know what to like you, Bill. It wouldn't be like you to have a conspiracy theory about something like this though. Why would somebody videotape three people standing in the outfield an hour and a half before a baseball game? And you're just like, Hey,

that looks interesting. I can't wait to download this and send this to some friends. Look at this conversation From way back Anyway, alright, so Lakers, Cowboys What about Brady? Where do we stand on Brady these days? How are the Brady conversations?

Luke Warm? He's just He's so good There's not a lot to discuss, I don't think You need sides right you need two sides to whatever like Rodgers is easy

because you could be like is Rodgers is he a good teammate would you want to play with him does he care about winning you can go a whole bunch of things can I let me ask you

celebrity girlfriends Rodgers is great do you think that the Cowboys are in there because the Cowboys you know America's team but that was really based on in there because the Cowboys, you know, America's team,

but that was really based on the history of the Cowboys franchise. And, you know, that's why I like cousin Sal's a Cowboys fan, right? He's not from Texas, but you see that you run into like, um, so people that are generational and a lot of Steelers fans, do you feel like the Patriots are the next in line for a whole generation of kids that grew up and the Patriots are like I jokingly refer to them as America's team so like last year when they played the Cowboys

I was like oh it's America's team versus the Cowboys people got fired up do you think that the Patriots since they had a whole generational two decade run which is by the way still continuing that they are next in line to be like, oh, they're just a national franchise.

That's why they have so many games on primetime and stuff like that. Do you think they're next in line to be Cowboys, Steelers? I don't. Why? I don't, because I think it's always going to be Dallas. I don't know why, but I think it comes from the 70s and it comes from

the amount of Dallas Cowboy fans and the fact that I mean if you look back at really since they won their last Super Bowl in the mid 90s their playoff record

is like pretty atrocious I know but they haven't staked yeah that's the thing but it's almost like I remember I wrote a thing a long time ago maybe like 8-9 years ago

comparing them to the Kardashians, where it's just like the noise around them becomes... That's the draw. It's just like, oh, the Kardashians, something happened. They're dating this person. They're dating that. It's just like a reality show.

And the Cowboys are more of a reality show than a football franchise. Have you watched... The NFL has released all the audio from the draft with the calls from ownership to the players. You guys know I'm not a Cowboys fan.

I like the Cowboys, but I'm not. I don't own Cowboys stuff. So, Jerry Jones, and I think he may say the same thing to Emmitt Smith as he does to recent. He goes, they call up and Jerry Jones gets the phone. He goes, hello, whoever.

He goes, how would you like to put a star on that helmet? And I legit got chills. Yeah. I'm like, oh, it's just such a good line. I was like, how would you like to put a star on that? I was like, wow, what a, it's just such a great line. I just loved it. And I was like, man, the Cowboys are like a special franchise. They're giving me chills and I'm not being drafted.

I'm just listening to a YouTube clip. Jacoby, you know why I agree with that? Jerry's so good at those calls. Yeah, Jerry is, I think, you know, he's the most visible, important owner. But the other thing is, it's the only team where the players are on the team become like weirdly, crazily overrated, right? Dak Prescott, I think people genuinely think he's one of the best QBs in the league. He's always thrown in these discussions.

And yet he's basically Kirk Cousins. There's no difference between him and Kirk Cousins from a career, from the stats they put up, from their performance in playoff games. There's no difference between him and Kirk Cousins from a career, from the stats they put up, from their performance in playoff games. There's no difference. Like, literally none. But I think everybody thinks Dak Prescott is better than him because he wears the uniform.

It's like what happened with Kyle Kuzma in the Lakers. It's Kyle Kuzma. Can't give up him. He's been in some big games. Learning from LeBron, and then he goes to the Wizards and he's pretty good at the Wizards, but how many Kyle Kuzma conversations

have you had since, right? None, none. But do you think there's something about that team that gives you this aura of something? You know what I mean, Jacobs? Well, it works. There's a reason it's always A1

on Monday morning on first take. It's always, always, always the conversation around the Cowboys. It is like a reality show. What happens on the field, win or lose, fuels the conversation. There's something about them that just gets elevated. The hype, the discussion, the discourse, it's all

the Cowboys' huge gap and then every other team. Huge gap in terms of just cultural significance. The amount of time that we waste talking about them. There's a huge gap, huge gap between the Cowboys and every other franchise. Can I give you the opposite story? A team that is not sort of historically celebrated, but is consistently interesting.

It's the Browns and Baker. Baker, we always have good conversations about Baker. Should you release Baker? Should the Panthers get Baker? Should Baker go to the Seahawks? I think Baker's just is Baker actually good? Is Baker

given a raw deal? I think Baker's just consistently interesting. I'm rooting for Baker. I hope he does well. Baker's a good interesting. I'm rooting for Baker. I hope he does well. But you know, Baker's a good example of what's happened to baseball. And I'm not saying that conversations have driven some of baseball's issues

because I do think it's like length of the games and getting our kids to watch and stuff like that. But if Baker was a baseball player, we would just be like, here are stats. Here's his war. Here's the speed coming off his bat. Here's his barrel speed. Don't get me started. Exit velocity. We'd have all that stuff and we would be able to determine if he was a good baseball player or not. But in football and basketball,

you can just go in all these... I don't think Baker is a very good quarterback. And I'm not even sure he's a good quarterback. But I also know that they succeeded with him two years ago. And that's got to be something. He was hurt. He was hurt all last year.

They got to the conference finals. He was hurt all last year. And it's like, you could give me the, he's short. I don't like him. I wouldn't be excited if he was the Patriots quarterback. But it's crazy to me

that a team like Seattle would just be like, you know who's good? Drew Locke. Let's go with Drew Locke. Baker Mayfield is clearly better than Drew Locke. He's clearly better than Sam Darnold. He's better than Davis Mills.

There's guys he's obviously better at. But I think that's why it's fun. It's more fun with football and basketball well because giving us flashes like remember that like two years ago he had this game against the titans we had like five touchdowns he's just basically perfect it was like it was like pitching a perfect game he was an absolute perfect quarterback and then i'm looking at last year like he's hurt he had a torn labrum it's like his chest was broken of course he's not throwing

the ball right on the field It's hurt the entire season. You know what? Wow. If I'm running a football team, I'm out on short quarterbacks. I think being out on short quarterbacks is back in. The Doug Flutie era of eyes too short, can't make it.

And then he became underrated. I'm out on all short quarterbacks. Russell Wilson. Yeah, I'm out on all of quarterbacks. Russell Wilson. Russell Wilson? Yeah, I'm out on all of them. You have to be like an amazing athlete. And Kyler, he'll run sometimes, but then he'll get banged up during the season.

He won't run as much. And then he's just, anyone can beat the Cardinals. I love the idea that just because you're short, you're going to be, you're like, you're injury prone. Like, ah, short. These guys are huge. Did you see the defensive guys getting drafted in this last draft? They're

330 pounds. If you're 6'5", you can absorb hits better. It makes no sense. Ah, he's short. I don't know. Brian Westbrook seemed to do okay. That Rams game was so bad from Kyler.

So bad. So bad. He completely melted down. And then he decides to pick this offseason to be like, pay me my money or else. It's like, bro, the last time you were in uniform, you were throwing the ball to the other team on the one yard line. That's the way it goes. Yeah, but they, you know.

It's tough. I mean, there's basketball players like that too. The Wizards are going to have to decide whether they want to give Bradley Beal $250 million. And I just don't think there's any world where he's the best player on the title team. Maybe he's the second best player on a contender. But, you know, especially they're going to add two NBA teams after this next deal,

which I keep telling people. I don't know whether they believe me or not, but we're going to have 32 teams in a couple of years. Vegas and Seattle. Why are you looking at me that way? I was ready to see. I thought you were like dropping more interesting news. No, it's happening.

I've never wavered from it. It's going to happen. And we're going to have 32 teams. And it's, you know, it's going to be harder and harder to figure out like how much do I want to commit to this max guy so I can go 38 and 44. What do you got, Chico? I got one for you, Bill. I got one. You're going to be harder and harder to figure out like how much do i want to commit to this max guy so i can go 38 and 44 what do you got your cups i got one for you bill i got one you're gonna love this one you're expanding teams you want to draw interest to these new franchises what if you took

the most famous athlete in the world and put him on one of those teams, the Las Vegas LeBrons. If you just, if you start, because the timing kind of works up. He'll be at the end of his career. I've been saying, he's part of the group. He's on the Fenway Sports Group. LeBron's going to be on that team. It's going to happen, I'm telling you.

LeBron in Vegas. It's happening. It makes so much sense. It makes so much sense. Not far from LA. It'd be the great way to start a franchise. He transitions into ownership. This is like, it's

perfect. It's perfectly set up for LeBron to start a Vegas franchise. Wilds is writing it down. He's taking notes. He's taking notes tomorrow on First Things First. I like that take. Let's make this one LeBron. What happens with LeBron this next year

is going to be so interesting because he doesn't want to leave LA. His son's a senior. I don't think that team has any chance to actually compete for a title unless they just pull off some miracle moves this summer, which I think is going to be just about impossible. Plus, he's in his 20th year.

And at some point, we've never seen a situation like Kobe. We never saw it because the Lakers were like, you're never playing for anyone else. Here's a lot of money. Jordan retired before we got to that point, then came back for the Wizards for two years. But with LeBron, he could just be a free

agent a year from now. And what is that worth? Clippers. Clippers. Clippers. Love it. Yeah, what I... Ty Lue. Clippers. Love it. Yeah, we talked... Remember, Bill... We talked about that.

Because like six months ago, he talked about LeBron leaving the Lakers and we shut him down. Yeah, you got shit on me. You're so like LeBron. I'm like, okay. I think it's realistic that he might not stay. You're like the first guy with the cell phone.

Like, this is going to work. I'm like, nah, it doesn't work. Sometimes it's like second or third company that comes along that really takes off. Like, this is what it is. Can I pitch you a trade

that I think works for the Lakers, Bill? I put it on Twitter. Let's hear it. Duncan Robinson and Kyle Lowry for Russ. The salaries match up. Duncan Robinson

is largely... You just had... You're going to put Jimmy Butler and Russell Westbrook together? Hardest playing team of all time. I think it would be great. And I would say the key culture will kind of morph Russ into his best self at this stage in his career. Duncan Robinson

can't play. He just can't play. He signed him for, I think, five around 70. He just had a whole series where he was riding the bench. You needed scoring. You're like, I know we need scoring and I know it's the Eastern Conference Finals.

We're still going to sit you. So when's the situation? He's not going to turn into a great defender. So, sure, put him in the Lakers. Give LeBron his shooter. And then Kyle Lowry, that's another, I think he's got three years.

So they get a true point guard in LA. You like that take to Cubs? Anything that gets Russell Westbrook off the team. Anything. This latest story where they don't want to attach their 2027 first rounder. Attach him. Get Russell Westbrook off the team. It just has to happen.

They're going to take it into the season. They're going to staring contest it. Oh my God. I have one for you. I was thinking about this a lot with the Fulham team that got relegated that the Khan family owns.

They own AEW. I was supposed to be prepped on Premier League stuff. They had another. they had this game it was like the winner of the game makes the Premier League and it was like a big deal for the soccer fans

and now we have the G League which has 30 teams and cities and you know already in yep guarantee

way in yeah way in could there be this new universe of the NBA where it's like 20 teams are in the actual NBA and then everybody else is like G League, whatever, 22 teams, whatever it is.

And then the bottom four have to stay, have the bottom four get relegated. The top four in the other league go up. I don't feel like the players, there's weird parts about how the players agree to this what if you're like Anthony Edwards do you want to be in the second division versus the top division but then that's where the transfer fees come in

so you'd have to have transfer fees if the team get relevated people become free agents you'd basically blow it up I guess my question is would the NBA just be better if it operated like the premier league 100% it will never happen but it is a tremendous idea i think the best part and again i wasn't prepped on this i didn't thought we were talking to nba i wasn't

ready to dive into the hierarchy of english football but i believe the it's premier league and then you get relegated but you can keep on getting relegated down to you're just playing with uh you know shout out to jj Redick, plumbers and firemen. But you're actually playing. So I would keep it going. You have the NBA and then you have the G League and then there's a league under that and then a league under that.

So eventually... The Z League? Well, you just keep on... It just keeps on going. And if you're in the top four... What league is Jacobian? Could we have enough leagues? Jacobian still playing?

My Wednesday night rec league team would be like, guys, if we go on a streak, if we go on a hot streak, we're going to be playing Madison Square Garden in three years. Yes, you can.

Not three, but you know, you'd have to work your way up. But that's the way, I don't know who the most successful team is in the Premier League, but there's,

you can go all the way down. So you're like, yeah, you're actually in the game. You're in the system. You're in the game. I absolutely love it. I love it. Because part of it is, I love it. Yeah, if you're like, yeah, you're actually in the game. You're in the system. You're in the game. I absolutely love it. Because part of it is... I love it.

If you're doing the Premier League thing, you'd have way less games on the schedule too. But you'd be able to make it up because you'd have more teams. You'd have 50 teams. You'd have second division. You'd be able to sell the second division TV rights. There would be real stakes for people trying to come up.

They'll never do it, but I think it would be, I think it'd be fun. Let's take one more break and then we'll do some half fake. When you ride transit, please be safe. Yeah. Be safe. Because what you do, others will do too. Others will do it too. So don't take shortcuts across tracks.

Don't do that. In fact, just don't walk on tracks at all. Not at all. Trains move quietly, so you won't hear them coming. You won't hear them coming. See? Safe riding sets an example. Yeah. An example for me. Because safety is learned. It's learned. Okay. Give it up. Give what up? Really? Really

really. Ugh. This message is brought to you by Metrolinks. I'm breaking news to Dave Jacoby. Oh. The last time I saw Dave Jacoby, we were with Jalen Rose in Boston after game three. We had some drinks.

And some more drinks because that's usually what happens when I'm with Jacoby. Jacoby is definitely better for my health when we're 3,000 miles apart. You're welcome. I get some more drinks. They left. At like

6.15 in the morning, I woke up on the kitchen floor in front of the refrigerator. I had no idea how I got there. In front of the refrigerator. I was wearing my a t-shirt and underwear and I think I went for a drink and was just like I need to lie down

and that was it and I and that was where I woke up and I walked back to my bedroom and continued sleeping oh man that's amazing that's amazing yeah wow yeah wow that's a story yeah Oh, man. That's amazing. Thank you. That's amazing. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Wow.

That's a story. Yeah. Game three. Lost and I woke up on the kitchen floor. And your underwear was in like shoes. It wasn't a fall. I checked my head because I was like, do I have a concussion? I think.

I know because I've been in this situation before. I think I was going for a drink and I just wasn't feeling awesome. So I think I just laid down and then it just got comfortable. And the reason I woke up was because it was a cold kitchen floor. The couch is one thing, but the kitchen floor is probably the most uncomfortable

place. It was uncomfortable place in the entire condo. Anyway, it was good to see you, Jacobi. It was good to see you, Jacoby. Oh my God. Good to see you too. Wow. Oh my gosh.

I want to know more. What position were you in? Were you sitting against the fridge? Were you lying down? I want to know less. No, I was lying on my side. I was comfortable. I think I would have stayed there if the floor wasn't as cold.

Anyway, I didn't see Jalen and Jacoby together in a year. So it was wonderful to see them. comfortable. I think I would have stayed there if the floor wasn't as cold. Anyway, I didn't see Jalen and Jacoby together in a year, so it was wonderful to see them. Anyway, what do you have for half-baked ideas, Wilds? Okay, I have one solo half-baked idea. It's less of a half-baked idea and more of just the absolute

truth. Okay, so here we go. The NBA rolled out these new trophies. The Magic Johnson trophy and the Larry Bird trophy. But somehow they didn't have Magic Johnson or Larry Bird presenting the trophy to the player. I mean, that's the least of our problems.

That's the least of our issues. I'm going to talk about the actual trophy. I've done a lot of research for my entire life is all about trophies and the pursuit thereof. And anyone that says,

ah, you know, Wilds, you're probably dedicating too much to trophies. It's the entire sports industry. There's billions of dollars going after trophies. So guess what? The actual trophy matters a lot.

And you should do more than just Google, like trophies.com, come up with some random trophy and give it to Jason Tatum. It's not how it works. So here's how it is. Major sports trophies are broken down into four categories. It's called, I call them the WIMP, W-H-I-M-P. We'll start with the W. I love acronyms. W, wearable trophies. You got rings, green jackets, heavyweight championship

belts, gold medals. World Series poker bracelet. Those are great trophies. You want to make a wearable trophy, I'd co-sign it. The Larry Bird and Magic Johnson trophies are obviously not wearable. So that's a loss. H, huge. Huge trophies. obviously not wearable. So that's a loss. H, huge.

Huge trophies. You can always just go, when in doubt, ah, we don't have a great idea for the trophy, just make it huge. Just make it a huge trophy. Champions League trophy, huge. Stanley Cup trophy, huge. Some of these horse racing trophies

are bigger than the horse. You can always make a huge trophy. Again, the Magic Johnson and Larry Bird trophies are underwhelming. They may be measuring at about 14 inches. Okay, I. Iconic. The World Series trophy, the Lombardi trophy. Neither huge nor wearable, but

they're iconic. They have so much history. They are just a perfect trophy. I think the World Series trophy is bad, just for the record. Awful trophy. It's unwieldy. It could hurt somebody. It's got a bunch of weapons on it. It's so delicate.

No, I love it. Delicate. Stanley Cup is the standard. Stanley Cup's a great trophy. You can drink out of it. It's too big. It's getting too big. Stanley Cup is too big.

Too big. No way. It's sneaky light. Sneaky light. I love that guy. Like the Stanley Cup guy. Oh, we had him on the podcast. Yeah, we had him on the podcast. It's sneaky light. Sneaky light. I love that guy. Like the Stanley Cup guy. Oh, we had him on the podcast. Yeah, we had him on the podcast. This guy's amazing. He's like,

what is your job, Steve? He's like, I control the Stanley Cup. I take care of the Stanley Cup. I am the caddy. I'm the white glove caddy for the Stanley Cup. All right, we interrupt for a while. Let's keep going. Okay, sorry. So that's the iconic trophies. Lombardi trophy. So we have W, H,

and I so far. So MP. Mini person. Mini person, like the Heisman Trophy. Like, oh, here's a mini. Now, if you can combine them all, a huge trophy that you can wear that's a mini person like the Heisman Trophy, that'd be great.

They didn't do any of these for the Larry Bird Trophy. So look, it's the first year you're allowed to have a mulligan on the trophy. Come back and say, you know what? We've decided to contact someone involved in the Heisman

Trophy design and we are going to make the Larry Bird and Magic Johnson trophies. We have the Magic Johnson and Larry Bird, so you can hold them. Even the MVP trophy, which is not necessarily Jerry West, but it's based on Jerry West, that's a cool trophy. So that trophy is not doing it for me, man. I am not a fan.

It needs to be redesigned. This sounds like this should be part of if I ever become the sports star. We should have a trophy and awards trophy and awards kind of consultation I'm with you first of all Jacobus they missed a great opportunity to do a mini Stanley Cup where you could have you could have drank out of

the bird or the magic trophies right they could have done a mini Stanley Cup basically you could have poured cup poured it on him whatever or or just made made the player that done the Heisman model They could have done a mini Stanley Cup, basically. You could have poured it on him. Whatever. Or just made the player that done the Heisman model. Or, could a number, could 33 and 32 have been on the trophies?

Something attached to the players? They put no thought into this. Sports Illustrated cover? Make a statue out of that? Let me pile on here. Let me kick this half-baked. I put it back in the oven for a little bit. What if

every year they debuted that year's trophy? So it was like, it's sort of like the championship ring is different every year. So what if the Larry O'Brien was just a little tweak on a theme so every Larry O'Brien trophy was unique to that year and that theme but it still looked like the Larry O'Brien trophy was unique to that year and that theme,

but it still looked like the Larry O'Brien trophy, but it was, that's not bad. I don't hate that. I think you do that with the Larry O'Brien. I don't think you do with Larry O'Brien, but I think you could do it with those bird magic trophies. Also,

like when did we ever care about the conference championship trophy? I never remember even like the, in the NFL the NFL, they barely want to hold it. I think the Bird Magic trophies were... Those were really cool ideas. Yeah. And then they hold it up and it looked like something my son would win because he gave the best speech in 10th grade. It's like, Dad, I won this award.

Oh, yeah, okay. $5 trophy. I'm with you, Wilds. Not a lot of thought put into it. Here's my other question, because we can all agree, pretty uninspiring trophy. It had to have been the final verdict on the trophy, right?

They had to have had different mocks. There had to have been PDF files mailed around. Here's 10 different choices. Which one do you like, Adam? Adam's like, how about that 14-inch completely generic I mean, here's, here's 10 different choices. Which one do you like? Adam? Adam's like, uh, how about that 14 inch completely generic one? That looks like it could be for any sport.

It has nothing in common with bird or magic. It's got crystal in it. I love crystal. I call it Swarovski. I just, uh, I'm just not, I'm just not a fan.

He's missed opportunity. Jacob's. What would you have gone for? Like, would you want it to drink out of the Bird of Magic trophies? No. Guys. Well, a couple things. The cup really does play.

When they drink out of the cup, it really plays. I like the cup. They're drinking beer out of it. They're holding it up and passing it around. No one's passing around the conference championship trophies. I think drinkable is good. I think it's just something that's functional.

Yeah, something that's functional that you can use. The cup works. The World Cup doesn't look like a cup at all. That's true. What if it was like a big champagne? World Cup trophy is bad too. No, it's not. That's a horrible take.

Edit that out. Horrible take. I don't like the World Cup trophy either. Keep this in. It looks messy. It's like an abstract painting. No, Kyle. Keep it in. Keep it in. Horrible take. I don't like the World Cup trophy either. No, bad trophy. It looks messy. It's like an abstract painting. No, Kyle, keep it in.

Keep it in. Awful take. How about this? Eastern Conference, Western Conference trophies for NBA. It's shaped like a giant champagne bucket.

It's got accompanying glasses around it. And then the trophy that sticks out of it is like a mock champagne bottle. I got one. a mock champagne bottle i got one you make the conference trophies like so they can like um go side by side to the larry o'brien trophy so you can complete it so some team just has like half half of a trophy but the one team

completes it when they get both of them together. Oh, it's like a middle school crush thing. I do kind of like it. I like that. The championship ring thing, I think would have worked so much better as an awesome necklace. Like a necklace that

LeBron, when he's out in the town, if he had on a chain that had all four rings that he won as a player, when he's out in the town, if he had on like a chain that had all four rings that he won as a player, and he's just like, that's what he's wearing when he's going to like a movie premiere. That makes so much more sense to me than these four gigantic rings that,

I don't know if you've ever held one of those. Like they're completely, you can't even function when you have these rings on. You can't even- Send an email. Yeah, it's hard to your... Remember Phil Jackson did that as his book thing. It was like a viral thing.

He was like, I can't type. I got my 10 rings or whatever he has. I think he had 13 rings finally with two as a player and 11 as a coach or whatever it was. Six. Yeah. But if you had that as this giant chain with all the rings

that would go all the way around him that would be pretty cool I love this I love this that would be cool I'd vote for that I just think championship rings is one of those

like I always had this theory and like sometimes when people go well that's why we've always done it and with championship rings for some reason they evolved

in the 50s 60s like there were years where the Celtics you got like a watch. There was stuff for sports auctions. New accessories. The 1962 Celtics championship

watch that every player got because they didn't get a ring. But in the 70s, it became ring, and now it's like rings culture, literally. I think the Bucks ring does transform into a pendant. I believe. I think you can pop ring does transform into a pendant. I believe. Interesting.

I think you can pop it off. It twists and then it pops out and you can wear it. I believe. I've got to check with Jostens on that, but I'm almost positive you can pull that off. Before we go, can we do talking head draft for the topic that will hit the hardest

if each team wins so I think for the Warriors if they win we immediately go into Curry versus LeBron they now have the same number of rings and that just dominates

the summer how good could LeBron have been he has the same rings as Curry he's won less than Kobe and we just go down that road and that just dominates the summer. How good could LeBron have been? He has the same rings as Curry. He's won less than Kobe. And we just go down that road, and that just becomes a summer of people yelling at each other about that.

Oh, no. Don't forget the KD angle at the Warriors win. I like that part. The win without KD. KD being swept by the Celtics. If you can wedge LeBron and KD into anything, it's going to get better. So you get KD involved in the discussion about the Warriors,

how this one means more, and this is the true Warriors without KD. That whole thing, I'm going to really enjoy if they win. Yeah, and how good was KD anyway? And then that whole thing is going to be great. Wilds is just looking at a whole summer of Nick Wright doing this on his show. I love it.

Nick Wright will be all in on that. There's some Steph top 10 all-time talk. Right. Then I think the more fun thing, I mean, you'll like this, Bill, is like we have, I don't know if Pat Riley started this or when you go to the parade and you immediately are like, we have, I don't know if Pat Riley started this or like when you go to the,

when you go to the parade and you immediately are like, we're running it back. We're like, we're, we're kind of like, it's, so it becomes how many can the Celtics win?

And, and I think that's, Oh, with the Celtics win, yeah. The Celtics were the most dominant team of the last century. Are the Warriors the dominant team of this century?

Joe Lacob has some quotes that like they didn't trade draft picks to, you know, maximize Steph's window because they want to win, be good for a very long time. And all of a sudden like, well, they've got Jordan Poole and Wiseman pops. And,

but at the same time, Celtics are super young. So are any of these teams going to win more? It's going to be like a half hour celebration. Like, do it again next year should you be the favorites so immediately looking forward I think that's the big topic Bill you're you took your pants off at some point right so you're just sitting there you take your pants off and then you decide to rest on the kitchen floor. You got ready for bed in some respects because we've all fallen asleep

on the couch with our jeans on. No, I was in bed. You were in bed and then got out of bed. I think I left bed to go get water and then just settled on the kitchen floor. Oh my goodness.

Listen, And then just settled on the kitchen floor. My goodness. Listen. Shots aren't good for me, Jacob. Especially as I get older. We're at the bar. Bill goes to me. Bill goes to me. So, do you still do shots? Like, he tried to bring up like a conversation.

Yeah, that's stupid. Yeah, exactly. He goes, do you still do shots? He asked me. I get excited. I see Jacoby. Just order the shots, dude. Jacoby and I have a lot of history together.

We have a lot of history. And I'm sitting there hanging out with Bill, and Bill's just got his eye on the door. Just staring at the door the entire time, just waiting for Jalen to show up. I'm like, bro, I could have a conversation about the game, too. We could hang out here. Maybe Jalen comes. Maybe Jalen doesn't come. That is so not true.

I was so happy to hang out with you. Bad friend. No. You kept telling me Jalen was going to show up and Jalen is like Bigfoot. Like you don't know if you're

you could be in the wilderness for six months hoping to get a glimpse of him for eight seconds and then all of a sudden he'll show up and then he does this thing where it was always your fault.

Jalen. He's the best. This is not enough. And you have to go thing where it was always your fault. Jalen. He's the best. This is not enough. And you have to go on your phone and be like, no, no. I've sent the last three texts. This is not equal of us staying in touch. But yeah, I'm retired from Shots Wilds. It's over. Wilds retired a while ago. I retired decades

ago. You're the Tom Brady of retiring from Shots Bill. But Wilds is the Tom Brady of Irish goodbyes. I'm the goat. Goated. Oh, yeah. Oh, we were hanging out. We were hanging out with Chambo and DOC.

We had a great time. Wilds spent at least an hour and a half just staring at people smoking cigarettes and wondering how he could get one. Didn't make a move, though. Disciplined. He's like, do you need me to go over there with you? What do you want me to do? You're just staring at people smoking cigarettes. Disciplined.

You were living through them vicariously. And they were smoking those little tiny Capri menthol ones too. I'm like, that's gonna be an awful experience even if you get one of those wilds. I didn't. I didn't. That's why. And then he Irish goodbyes so much that once he got up from the table, I was like, he's gone. We'll never see this man again.

Out of here. Drives by in an Uber and he's like, I don't know he's gone. We'll never see this man again. Out of here. He drives by in an Uber and he's like, I don't know how this happened. I don't know how I ended up in here. I don't know what happened. His car just pulled up and then I got in. See you later. I think it's really smart because Wilds knows he can text people the next day and say it was great to see them and nobody's upset that we didn't have

the hug. Just everybody knows. I don't need these melodramatic goodbyes on a Wednesday. Sorry, everybody. It would be funny if your kids were Irish goodbyers just even pre-drinking. Just gone, yeah. You see them at whatever,

at a movie theater, and then they're just gone. They don't even thank you for that. At the dinner table, next thing you know, boom, on the iPad. Like, what just happened? I was just... How'd you pull that off i with both of you guys are not like huggers like i cannot see you for three years and i'll get like a nice firm handshake from you guys and i think wilds leaves because he doesn't know whether to go with the handshake or the hug goodbye he can't deal with that he doesn't want to deal with that i'm out of here

he's just going that's what he does i still need it it's just it's the goodbyes are the are the are the the least efficient time spent in our society oh when can i see oh does that start planning something else like okay here we go i'm gone i'm not i should call me i'm the jose alvarado of the of the irish goodbye i'm hiding in the corner. Next thing you know, boom, got you gone out of here. Bill, I need it. I need to get, you need, if you're going to the finals in Boston,

I need you to take a picture of yourself lying down in the kitchen. I'm just going to do it every couple of months. I'm just going to send you one. And I told my wife and my wife was so happy that, um, I, you even got me to, to a I woke up on the kitchen floor standpoint you know

she doesn't know if I'm washed up as a fun person before we go wow it's prediction for the finals I'm gonna go I'm gonna go Celtics in seven

my fun stat is Celtics have won six of their last seven games in the bay so I don't think home court is a huge advantage for the Warriors. Celtics in seven. Celtics have seven road wins this season. Boom.

I mean, in the playoffs. I think the record's nine. Two more road wins, they tie the record. What do you have, Joe? Pretty good. So both of these teams have like had some really, really sucky playoff games. Like remember that game against Memphis when the Warriors were down 55.

Yeah. Yeah. They're down 55 points. I'm like, what is happening? I don't even think John Moran was playing. I'm like, you're down 55 in this game.

And Boston just has like these like 17 turnover halves that just don't show up in game six at home. There's just so much variance that I wouldn't be surprised if either team swept. So that being said, I'm going Warriors in seven because I just don't see the Celtics getting on a plane and winning game seven on the road. I don't see it.

I think that's fair. I think they're four to one to win in 7 on FanDuel I think they I think they're better than the Warriors but I feel less confident about it than I did after game 6 and game 7 Miami I haven't been able to fully come to grips with

why couldn't they close and why does this team over and over again in these close games with leads, whatever, last four minutes when it's like pace, pace, that was working, ball movement. And then last four minutes, everybody's slow. Everybody's standing in spots. And it just seems really easy to stop.

This team has always looked better when they're up 10 than they do when it's like tie game, one point game. And I think the Warriors are so good at executing. On the flip side, I said this Sunday night, I just feel like you go through those three rounds with the Warriors and it's pretty flimsy. That Denver team, they had one guy.

Memphis, jaw got hurt. Memphis' wings really bothered Golden State for most of that series with the size on defense. And then Dallas just couldn't make a three for four and a half of the five games. So I don't know how tested they were.

And I want to see... I think the Celts, they love playing them, and I think Smart loves playing Curry. So I really do think the Celtics are going to beat the Warriors. But I don't know what game. If you look at their closing five,

if you've got a healthy Time Lord, Time Lord, Horford, Jason, Jalen, Smart, there's just no one to pick on defensively. There's no switch you want. There's just no one there. When you have Curry, you can pick on him a little bit. You can pick on Poole a little bit, but you cannot do that with the Celtics closing five,

which is one of the things that I would go to bed at night on the kitchen floor thinking about if I was a Celtics fan. What's interesting is they beat Miami, especially in game seven with the role guys, like Grant Williams. Pritchard came up big that game. TimeLord has been up and down just because of the injuries, but the supporting guys have been so huge.

And in that, the end of that Miami series, they just weren't getting that stuff from the supporting guys. I don't think they can beat the Warriors. Great Williams has to do. We did the Milwaukee series. They're going to need help. It's going to have to be a one person effort.

Yeah. They'll get a game. And I'm, you know, the Butler was just such a bad matchup for them in three of those games. I saw some people were like, Butler should have been the MVP of that series. Like, he sucked for three straight games. And they lost.

That's a ludicrous argument. Honestly, it's ludicrous. But Golden State doesn't have anybody like Butler, which is the type of guy who gives Boston problems. I think they match up pretty well with Curry. Anyway, I'm optimistic, but we'll see. Wilds, we can hear you on and watch you on First Things First, Jacoby, the Jalen and Jacoby show and Food News

on the Ringer Podcast Network. Great to see you guys as always. I'm going to go lie in the kitchen for now. You're the best. Alright, my guy Jon Bernthal is here. He is in We Own This City, which is on HBO Max. There's been a few episodes.

By the time people hear this, there'll have been five of the six. I thought initially it was the spiritual cousin of The Wire, but now I feel like it's an actual son or daughter of The Wire. It's directly linked. I think if you love The Wire, there's no way you wouldn't love this show. You play the star. You're unbelievable in this show. I demanded that you came back on.

God damn! I didn't realize I was working with Supercup! You're doing this charismatic character who at the same time is pretty evil. And you have to balance that. You have to sell the charisma of this guy while at the same time, you can't make him too likable.

And yet he is, but he's unlikable as hell. How do you, that is a tightrope. How do you do it? Yeah, look, man, I appreciate the good word. It means the world that you dig it.

I mean, look, it's the first thing David Simon said to me when we started. He said, you know, the challenge here is to just, you can't just make this guy a monster. So there's a couple of things. I mean, I think first and foremost from, you know, knowing that you're going on to a show with the creators of The Wire, you know, it's essential for me to like really get in deep with the BPD and members, ex-members of the Gun Trace Task Force and the last sort of remaining plainclothes unit, aggressive tactic cops that are still working today. When you go to those guys and say, hey, we're going to make it, we're making a piece, you know, in today's Hollywood about the most sort of corrupt chapter of the Baltimore Police Department.

Hey, will you let me in and go on ride along and, you know, open up the books to me? That's a tough ask. And I was aware of that. But I think because you're going in sort of, you know, under the umbrella of the wire, you know, guys like legendary police officers that are there now, guys like Keith Galeano, Tony Maggio, guys that I became like super close with, they watch the wire every year, because I think ultimately what they respect about The Wire is that it was made with journalistic integrity. It was made to tell the truth. And, you know, the truth is really what these guys are after and it's what they respect. And I think that, you know, from every single person that I talked to about Wayne Jenkins,

whether it was the drug dealer that he was selling drugs with, whether it was guys whose careers were upended because of their connection to him, guys who loved him, guys who hated him. They all said the same thing. And that was he was an absolutely dedicated father. He coached all his kids in football. He was you know, he put his three sons above everything. He could be on the middle of a stakeout or in the middle of going and robbing a drug dealer. And if he got a call from his wife saying his kid was having a problem, he would dip out of there. And when I found that out, I really went to David and George and said, Hey, look, we need to, you know, really infuse this into the piece. Like this guy, you need to have a conflict at the center of what this guy's going through, which is I love my kids

more than anything in the world. Yet I'm engaging in behavior that ultimately will most likely keep me from them, you know, for now the rest of the rest of my life. engaging in behavior that ultimately will most likely keep me from them, you know, for now, the rest of the rest of my life. And I think that, you know, when you dig into that, you can get into something, you know, that's pretty cutting and pretty tense. And so I kind of, you know, I think that that was sort of, you got to ultimately make him a human being. As far as the charisma, I mean, I think it was that charisma and that idea of him being, you know, the biggest dick in the room and the loudest voice in the room and the guy that everybody couldn't take their eyes off of. That's also what gave him cover. That's what sort of enabled him to do what he did. And, you know, getting getting lauded the way he was in the department. It gave him free reign over the city. And, um, he knew what he was doing, man. I mean, and from the times I've talked to him in prison, um, he's a, he's a, he's a cunning dude, man. He he's a, he's, he's, he's a smart guy and, and, and, you know, a legendary corrupt police officer, but a legendary police officer at that.

Well, one of the reasons I own millions of dollars in Bernthal stock, you're able to play the tennis coach in King Richard and then this guy, and they're just two completely different people. This guy, you're dialing it up and you're, depending on who you're in the room with, but you also, you had to nail the Baltimore accent as well. It's like a little Southern, not too much. But so, so what was the preparation for that? Well, look, I mean, I think anytime again with these guys, you know, they, they want to tell the truth. I think normally when you go and you, you do a TV show or a movie, you know, the idea is let's make the scene as entertaining as possible. Let's make it, uh, let's, let's ratchet

up the stakes. Let's, can you imagine if we did that? Let's push each other. Let's make it as biting as possible, as dangerous as possible. I think on this show, it's a little bit different. You know, what really wins the day on set with David Simon is the truth. We're shooting it in the actual place where it went down. Usually the victims are there. If there's police on the screen, they're usually police in real life. If there's, you know, gangsters on the screen, they're usually guys who have just gotten out of prison. I mean, he's really into telling the truth. So I think if you're going to do that, I mean, I think in both cases, to me, that's like my sword. If I know we're really going to try to tell the truth, then I can dig in and spend as much time as possible on the busy work,

like getting the accent down, getting the tennis down, getting the police tactics, police procedure down, spending my time on ride along. You know, that's not, you know, that's not, hey, some Daniel Day Lewis. Hey, man, I just like I dive in so full. You know, it's about that. That's the only thing you can control in this unbelievably uncontrollable world. And I think just like an athlete, man, you know, you put your time in the weight room. That's the only thing you can control. You, you, you put your time in on the practice field. You're not late. You, you, you, you got your eyes and you cross your T's. It's all you can control in this. So I think the accent stuff, you get a great dialect coach, which I did and just work your

ass off on it. And again, that's one piece of this thing that you can control because there's so much of it, especially when you're dealing with non-actors. 90% of the people that I work with in this show are people who have never been on camera before. And a lot of them are guys, I'm going on ride along with these guys. I'm saying, hey, come in and do this scene. I mean, I'm bringing all the real guys, the heaviest hitting cops in Baltimore to be in the scenes with me. That's, you know, I love that. That adds so much to everything that's going on in the scene. And, but, you know, it's, it's not a guy who's got,

you know, they haven't taken Meisner classes, you know, they're not going to be bouncing back and forth with me, you know, the way that a lot of actors will. So there's a lot that you can't control with things like accent and gun work and stuff like that, that, that, that's all within your control. Well, and you met him a few times. A hundred percent. So how did that help? It helped a lot. I mean, honestly, I often, I subscribe to the idea that you learn more about people by what folks close to them say about them rather than what people say about themselves. I think, look, Wayne's in prison and he's not getting out for a long time. So he was in federal prison. So our relationship consists of, you know, 15 minute, you know, recorded phone calls. But, you know, there's, there's not a single time you get on the phone with Wayne Jenkins where he's not trying to, you know, he's not trying to play you or do something. I don't mean that. I mean that. I don't mean that in any sort of judgmental way at all. Just who the guy is. He's a mover and a shaker. Brother, he is always going to be trying to convince you of something and get you to do

something for him. And that's where he is. I think the things that were the most helpful for me was really getting to know guys from the Gun Trace Task Force, guys that served with him, the aggressive unit, plainclothes flex unit, police officers that are really across the country right now kind of getting disbanded. And I'll say, I got to know so many people who were victimized and brutalized by this man. And there's no words for that, man. To be brutalized and victimized by police corruption or police brutality is, you know, it's there's no words for how awful that is. There's people who have been beaten physically. People have lost their lives. People have lost their freedoms. People's Fourth Amendment rights have been violated on a daily basis by guys like Wayne.

But there's a whole other group of victims. And those are the good, courageous, honorable members of police force. And there's a lot of people who take an oath and take a lawmaker's oath, and they police with integrity, and they care about the community that they police. And I met a lot of these guys whose careers were completely upended, their lives were completely upended just because they had proximity to Wayne. And I've become extremely close with those guys. And I feel like, you know, those were the folks that, you know, that's where I learned the most from Wayne. I mean, I got to know Donnie Stepp really well, too, who is the drug dealer that Wayne was selling stuff, you know, selling his drugs with, you know, that he would confiscate or steal off the street, and then he would go sell it with a

with a drug dealer that he grew up with. And Donnie had just gotten out of prison. He had to wear an ankle monitor. But I talked to a federal judge, and we got a deal that he was allowed to leave his house just as long as he was with me, which if you had asked the John Bertholdt 20 years ago, that sounds completely fucking insane. That's what it was. But Donnie was extraordinarily helpful. And look, I think anytime you do a story like this, that is really, really the effort is to tell the truth. Everybody does have an angle. Everybody wants their character, their story to sort of come off in a certain way. And I always kind of keep that in mind,

but it was great to kind of be able to have the infrastructure and the runway with this, you know, to really spend three months before we shot going on ride-alongs every day in every district, going on drug raids with the Baltimore SWAT team. And I met some great people, made some friends for life. Well, you're a psycho with this stuff. So is David Simon. You guys must have loved each other. We did. I mean, look, him and George, I do love those guys. I mean, we also bumped heads because

I learned things that I felt like they didn't know. They were stuck on things that they felt like, you know, we, we, we care. And I think that, you know, anytime you really, really care, you're going to bump heads. And I think that's healthy and that's great. But, you know, you mentioned King Richard. Wait, give me an example. All right. Uh, so there was a, there's a scene, I don't think it's come out yet, but there's a scene where Wayne was testifying in court. And I went to go play that scene. And I wore that, you know, Baltimore police bulletproof flak jacket, um, in court. And David's like, you know, why are you wearing that? Everybody's questioning me why I'm wearing that. And I said, cause I have a picture of him on the day wearing it. And David said, no police

officer would wear that in court. He's kind of, he was like, where's his jacket? Where's his, where's his picture? Why are you saying there's a picture? I haven't seen a picture. And I just held it up on my phone. Somebody had sent it to me. I'm like, there's a picture. And you know, I did get a, you got one over on him. I did, man. That was, that was one for Bernthal. Trust me. There was many the other way, but you know, I think again, like as soon as he saw that picture, he said, good go. Because again, it's not about, Hey, what looks coolest or what's going to make for the best picture. It's not up to the DP or the costume department. What was he wearing that day? That's what he's wearing. And, and,

and I dig that it's, it's like, it's like being in a boxing gym. The truth is right there in the ring, man. We don't have to, you know, you don't have to placate. You don't have to puff up. It's right there. But I also think, you know, for me, you know, you mentioned King Richard, it's the same director, you know, Ray Green directed King Richard. He came on with me to this and directed all the episodes. And in my mind, look, I've had the privilege of working with the best. Ray is up there as good as anybody working. I mean, he's a legendary director. He's, you know, right sort of at the, his career is about to explode.'s, you know, right sort of at the his career is about to explode. But, you know, having him with me, you know, with David and George, who are, you know, for their own right, very set in their ways.

They know how to do it. Look, a big part of me playing this part is improv and changing it up. And, you know, you don't want to be changing up David Simon's lines. But having Ray with me and getting my back and encouraging me to sort of go that way is something I'm eternally grateful for. And he's my brother. And this performance is just as much his as it is mine. Well, and he's a guy like you who loved The Wire and understood the importance of like, hey, this show is going to be compared to The Wire in some way, going back to Baltimore. That's right. I think one of the things I love, I mean, there's so many things I love about this show,

but, you know, it's six episodes. It easily could have been 13. They could have strung stuff out. We could have gone on, you know, the little side trip with Sean Suter. His wife is having infertility issues and they got to go to the doctor. And is she going to get pregnant or not? We could have had all these Hollywood subplots

and Simon's just like, no, this is a true story. Six episodes, viewing all the facts. I don't want to do a lot of detours. They do some detours with you, but all of them make sense. Like, you know, when Wayne's bringing crabs initially, way back when, when he's a young cop and he brings like the kind of crappy crabs and

they give him a shit. And it's like, you can see that the seeds are planted. We're like, ah, I need to make more money. I don't feel good about this, but everything is so purposeful. And the first two episodes, it's, you know, the timeline, you're going back and forth. And once you kind of get used to that, which I was used to basically telling what your hair and facial hair situation was. You could kind of tell where you were. But then in that fourth episode, man, with the Freddie Gray thing, how it pays off and how emotional and intense that is. And we have just, you've laid the breadcrumbs here for three and a half episodes for this moment where we go into Baltimore. And I was fascinated by this.

I went and read about it. Like I was, how did they convince people in Baltimore to do that? And it's really because of the cachet of those guys, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. We shot right at Madonwan Mall, right where the heart of the uprising kind of popped off.

And I looked, they did it with respect and reverence for the city of Baltimore the whole way. Yes, they've earned their stripes in that city. And those are two creators, really, really three with Nina Noble. They've stuck their whole career there. I mean, they've been there. You know, Baltimore Sun reporter George Balcones, son of D.C., lived in Baltimore. You know, those guys, the crew on this show is the same crew from The Wire. They're folks that played kids on The Wire and now playing adults, you know, and we own the city. But, you know, the folks that were down there that day

in that community, you know, look, Baltimore is beautiful and it's a brutal city. And those things really go hand in hand. And the folks that were playing people in the Freddie Gray uprising, Freddie Gray protests, those people were really there. And the neighborhood came out and the neighborhood was watching. And, you know, we knew that that was going to be sensitive. And the guys that I was standing with, you know, the police officers that I was standing with that day, you know, were, you know, I would say 80% real police officers who were really there that day. So it was tense and look, without sounding like a total corn ball, I think there's something enormously therapeutic about it.

I think there's something about getting it out there and expressing it, come together after each scene, you know, we sort of hugged each other. And, you know, one thing that did happen that day, just to give you a window into the city of Baltimore, you know, we're shooting that scene, we probably did it 30 times and the guys, you know, once they threw the rock at me and I came in and sort of roughed those guys up, those were three or four

stunt guys that I was tangling up with that I knew from Punisher that I've known for a really long time. And we were very comfortable with each other getting physical. But one time I ran out there and there was a guy that I'd never seen before, this Dreadlock guy. And I'm like, what's this guy doing there? And, you know, you never really know with background actors, you never really know what's going to happen. And the guy reaches back, like he's going to throw a right hand at me. I'm like, is this guy going to sock me? And sure enough, man, he threw a punch like right at my face and I blocked it with my shield and the shield hit my face. I don't know if you've noticed in the scene, I have like a cut on my face. So it hit me and I just figured it was an extra who's trying to hit me. So I figured, well, look, man, if he's going to swing on me, I have like a cut on my, on my, so it hit me and I just figured it was an

extra who's trying to hit me. So I figured, well, look, man, if he's going to swing on me, I'm going to swing on him. So I hit him with the right hand and just busted his eye open and he fell on the ground. Then, you know, we finished the scene and then, uh, afterwards, you know, there's a whole bunch of chaos. And then afterwards the guy came up to me as, uh, I was busted open. He gave me this huge hug. He said, man, you're a real one. You're a real one. And he was like, man, you're for real. And then he looked to his right and three real on duty Baltimore police officers were running at him. He was actually being chased, saw this scene and decided, hey, I'm going to go knock that guy out in the middle of this scene. And then what? And I cannot imagine a more Baltimore, you know, a Bentley because then he hugged me and he had integrity about it.

And and that's why I had the little Nick there, because, you know, the me being the sort of, you know, prima donna actor that I was. I was just they had to try to get rid of the blood because nothing was going to match. And I was just so worried about losing the takes because you only get so many in TV. So I just said, let's just keep going. Let's go from the beginning. We'll just do the whole thing with a little nick on my face. Wow. Thank God you had the boxing training. Yeah, man.

Thank God I had the shield, man. I'm not that fast. Do you think anybody else could have walked into that same spot and filmed basically a recreation scene like that, unless they had the pedigree in Baltimore that Simon and Pelicanos has? Because I would say no.

I would agree. I would agree. I mean, again, I think the same way that I got sort of like entree into the Baltimore Police Department and they opened their arms for me the way that they did. The same is true with the city of Baltimore. I mean, look, the, the, the, um, the scourge of, of, of, of corruption, police corruption in that city. Um, it is touched. I mean, the, the, the show gets into it. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's touched nearly everybody and, and the city's in really rough shape and, and, um, it's really sort of like infected and, and, and, um, uh, you know, it's had a real effect on the soul of that city. And, you know, I also think there's something about that city. You know, there's a great documentary on HBO about Sean Souter and about his death and about the sort of energy and fervor and brotherhood, the folks of Baltimore came out to protest the death of Sean Suter, a police officer, in the same way that they came out to protest the unfair death of Freddie Gray, a citizen.

And that really speaks to a lot of Baltimore. And I think, look, man, they're after the truth. They're after the truth. They're after digging into the crime. They don't want to abolish the police in Baltimore. They want the police to police better. And I think that's what folks want across the country. And I think it's naive and misguided

to throw out terms like defunding the police or abolishing the police. To me, in my experience, those words could only be uttered by people who have never been in a situation where they needed the police, who have never lived in a community where policing is so necessary.

And I think being anti-police corruption, being pro-Black Lives Matter, and also being pro-law enforcement, all those things ring true. And I don't see why you can't be all those things at the same time. You had that scene with Jamie Hector when I think it was a car wash or auto body when you flipped the table. That was the super cop scene. And at some point, I mean, you're doing this with Marlo from The Wire,

a show that you loved. Yeah. And you have like all these great scenes of them. This is a two part question question one at what point are you not working with Marlo anymore and you're just working

with Jamie Hector the guy who played Marlo does it take like days to get over that because Marlo is such an iconic distinct character how do you

divorce that from the human being you're working with you know look sometimes it's harder than it is other times when you're working with? You know, look, sometimes it's harder than it is other times when you're working with somebody whose work you just like, you know, when you're

just a fan. I mean, I'm the biggest Wire fan. I'm a huge Jamie Hector fan. But, you know, like day one, getting to know Jamie, I got to know his wife. I got to meet a couple of his kids. I got to meet his sister. You know, they're just like, I don't know. And then it drops. It goes away. It does, man. I got to know Bill and Jamie really fast. And I think like me, he's hungry to tell the truth. He was hungry to tell this story for the right reasons. And I really respected the way he went after this. he went after telling Sean's story. And, you know, it really, that wasn't hard. I mean, look, the guy who plays Conlon, like the guy that we have locked up,

me and him are going, who owns the shop, that's a guy named Ralph Horn, Big H, a legendary Baltimore cop that I know super well. He's got a podcast in Baltimore called the Silverbacks. It's a, it's a group of like just legendary black cops that call themselves the Silverbacks. I mean, some of my best friends in Baltimore, he came in and did that scene, did, I mean, he's never been on camera before and he just absolutely smashed it. So, I mean, I think that just like that entire scene, just trying to make it as dangerous as possible. Uh, you know, I, I,

there wasn't much, uh, there wasn't much sort of standing back in fanfare. I mean, on this one, I was pretty much all in. Yeah, I would imagine. I got used to him by like the third episode. In that scene, though, that's the pivotal moment of the show, right? You have all this stuff. Jenkins is kind of side-eye looking at him. And they have that moment where it's like,

is this guy in or is he out of all this stuff? What do we do? We'll take some of that. And that was like the three episodes leading that moment, right? All right, here's how these guys get sucked in. You got the one guy who's already gone on the dark side. Looking at this other guy, I'm like, hey, man, it's this easy. We just stuff it in our vest.

We're good to go. Yeah, man. And look, movies and TV have been exploring that since Serpico, you know what I mean? It's always, it's that thing. It's, it is literally the quintessential lose lose situation. And ultimately it's going to go down one way. You've either seen me do it and you're going to let me do it or you're going to do it with me. But, uh, you know, I mean, look, I,

I do think when you police, you know, they say police work isn't pretty and they say, you know, I mean, look, I do think when you police, you know, they say police work isn't pretty and they say, you know, it's, it's one way or another, you know, of the cops that I've gotten to talk to and gotten to know that I've been lucky enough to get to know all over the country. It's like, look, man, you, you find things out about each other. You, you, you, you kind of have to, and you know, and, um, I think now and how litigious things are and how sort of like, you know, everybody's neck is on the line. There is this thing of just trying to have a little piece of something on someone and that can be bastardized and used for evil. And then I think

it can also be used for good sometimes. And, you know, when you're dealing in a world where, you know, your safety and yourbeing and your life really depends on the people that you work with and getting your back it's important to know that uh you can trust him and again the way that he does that is is in this total sort of like evil manipulative wayne jenkins way but he's got him and and and what i really respected about the episode is that in the end of the episode the the scene with, you know, Sean and Wayne in the car, you know, he says like, look, man, you know, in any other business, if I was a lawyer, if I was a doctor, I am the best of the best in this city, but I'm not making any more

money than anybody else. I don't have a fancy car. I don't have a fancy house. This city doesn't do anything for me. So why don't I deserve these things? And whether you agree with that or don't agree with that, or think of that as ridiculous, you'd say that violates the code that you took. You can certainly empathize with it. I mean, you can certainly understand it. And I think that that's giving this character a chance to sort of not pull punches, turn your back on the audience, be as evil as you can possibly be, but also really come from a place that he thinks he's completely fucking justified. I mean, those are the kind of characters I want to play.

And I was really grateful that he had that opportunity with Sean who, you know, was sort of like portrayed as this kind of choir boy and be like, come on, man, answer the question. What do we do this for? And,

um, it's something that I can kind of latch onto. So I'm grateful for it. Well, it's my favorite Bernthal character so far. You got a long career left. What, what kind of, so we're taping this between episode four and five.

Do you feel like the show's getting momentum? Because I feel like in my life, it's starting to, people in my life, just anecdotally, starting to get a little momentum. But I still feel like the word's not out correctly yet. Yeah. You know, man, it's weird. If you talk to, Baltimore's such an underdog city. And I think that like, you know, David and George, that they're such they're so comfortable with with with with kind of being underdogs. I mean, the wire, I don't know if you remember, but no Emmys. They weren't winning Emmys. You know, the wire wasn't that nobody watched the wire, you know, and you look back and I mean, George says it all the time. George Pelicano says, you don't want to be the show that everyone's watching now. You want to be the show everyone's watching in 15 years. And again, if you are actually telling the truth with your work and it is this sort of meld between journalism and entertainment, I think you got a

shot at that. I think you really do. And I think that, you know, if you were to go into Baltimore right now and ask anybody, hey, man, you know who Wayne Jenkins is. Everybody knows who he is. Everybody. That's that's a huge story. The Gun Trace Task Force is an enormous story in the sort of zeitgeist of Baltimore and the culture of Baltimore. And, you know, I think that means it's going to be around for a while. I think people are going to be interested in, and I don't know. I mean, it,

it sounds like a bullshit PC answer, but I, I can't, I can't concern myself with kind of like who's watching or how many folks are watching. Um, I, I just,

I just hope it sticks around and I hope we made, you know, George and David and Ray happen. Well, people can find these things on the streaming services too. I feel like you're going to get boned over. I think you're going to get an Emmy nomination, but I think you're going to get boned over

because it's a David Simon thing. You're not allowed to win Emmys with David Simon projects. What was that King Richard experience like? Because that's the biggest movie you've been in. You know, the King Richard experience overall was, was, uh,

like, do you feel like your fame went up after that or everybody saw it? Yeah. You know, like, I, I, I don't know. I don't really think on those terms. I mean, I know, look, I've been in movies that I've been in movies that have really sort of taken off, Wolf of Wall Street or Fury. These movies that were big movies. I think for me, what I love so much about King Richard, number one, it was a movie that my kids could see. So that was just awesome for me. It was good to walk out of a movie and just feel good about life.

How many times has that happened? Right? And it's like when you think about the films, when you think about Hoosiers, when you think about, you know, even major league, when you think, I mean, we talked about sports movies the last time. Yeah. And you told me this was going to be one of them. That's right. And I think it's like, we feel like there's no real market for that now, but like, this was an uplifting kind of meditation on family and on fatherhood and on faith and perseverance. And I feel like the movie kind of meditation on family and on fatherhood and on faith and uh perseverance and i feel like the movie kind of captured because the movie was set zach balin the the screenwriter set

that movie you know really from when the girls were 10 and 11 to when they you know were you know basically when when venus was 14 yeah like looking at that chapter everybody knows where they're going obviously but it really really captured the palpability of the impossibility of the task that was at hand. And I felt like the way that they dealt with Serena was just so genius. Like I think about in The Departed, my buddy James Badge Dale's in The Departed. Remember at the end, he comes in and he shoots him right in the head and he's like kind of been in the movie the whole time and he's always sort of around but you don't know him then you're like oh shit he's like you know it's a major major plot

point of the movie and i just thought that like the way that sort of serena you know the way that demi played her she's so amazing and every time you see her like the screen lights up she's always there but she's not front and center and then all all of a sudden, like a dad does sometimes, you sort of focus on one kid and then she sees, he sees the kid there and he says, no, she's going to be the best in the world, but you're going to be the best of all time. And it's such, for me, that was sort of like such a beautiful, like fathering moment, you know what I mean? How you kind of come up with the right thing at the right time. And, you know, you know, and then the fact that that comes true, you know,

it was a, it was a beautiful thing to be a part. And, and, and, and I feel like that film, there was a righteousness on that set. There was a familial aspect of that set that I've only had a few times in my career, but you know, we're all getting to the King Richard cast is all getting together. Uh, uh, not this weekend, but the next. We all really love each other. We all stayed enormously close. And I really think the person who really just doesn't get enough credit for that movie is Ray Green.

I just think to take that film and elevate it in the way that he did was really an incredible feat. And to make this movie that could be, you know, it could borderline on sort of like a family, like sort of- Or too sappy. Yeah, I mean, it's like, it's funny and it's for everyone. It's, you know, it's uplifting,

but it's exciting. And the character work is incredible. And I really think, you know, the guy is just sort of like impeccable in the way that he casts and the environment that he creates on set. And again, it made me feel so lucky to have him on we own the city i gotta ask were you at the oscars or were you watching no you know uh i went to all of them and and i went to all the awards and i did have a ticket but uh my son little bill little bill burthard plays travel

baseball he had a double header oh this is heartwarming. I love the dad sports travel stories. Yeah, man. And look, man, I like, and I don't, I know it's crazy. And I know maybe people like for me. No, I get it, man. That's where I want to be, man. That's where I want to be. And I miss too much as it is.

And my other son had a lacrosse tournament. And I just, I told my wife, I was like, baby, we're not doing this. Like, you know, I've been working my ass off. I haven't, I haven't stopped really in, in, in years. And I just, I don't know. And, and, and, and honestly, you know, after everything that kind of went down, I'm kind of glad that I wasn't there to be honest with you. What was your reaction watching it? Um, you know, look, Will's my friend, man. And, and, and I don't, I don't, I don't judge my friends by, you know, their lowest moments. I, I, Will's my friend, man. And, and, and I don't, I don't, I don't judge my friends by, you know, their lowest moments. I, I, I judge them by their highest. Um, you know, the Will that I

know was, uh, you know, on that set was so extraordinarily generous and so extraordinarily, um, healthy and, and, and, and was such a wonderful leader on that film. And the guy I saw, you know, that night is somebody I didn't know. And I hope he's okay. I feel terrible. I felt terrible for what happened to Chris Rock. And it was just a super unfortunate situation. I think, you know, more than anything, I was watching with my son. You know, I was watching with one of my boys.

My boys, you know, met and they're like, why would, that doesn't even make sense. You know, and I think that's the tragedy with my son, you know, I was watching with one of my boys, my boys, you know, met and they're like, why would, why would that doesn't even make sense? You know what I, and I think that's the tragedy because I think, you know, that knowing that he put, knowing him and knowing that he put that out there, I think hurts him more than anything else. And, um, that makes my heart hurt. Yeah. I mean, some, everybody's had a bad moment and unfortunately for him, that was a bad moment with, I don't know, 20 million people watching or whatever. Did your son win the baseball tournament? He did win the tournament. Oh, there you go.

Yeah, man. He won the tournament. He actually hit like a double at the end of the game. A ground rule double. Yeah, it was a great game. He pitched. Yeah. What kind of baseball dad are you?

Are you like quiet, rocking back and forth intensity? Are you talking? Are you like left field rocking back and forth intensity? Are you talking? Are you like left field away from everyone? What are you doing? It's a good question, man. Cause you know, like I played ball. I was a catcher. I played baseball in college, you know?

And you know, my son Bill, he's very good. You know, he's played travel ball with older kids. And he talked to me cause I was pretty loud. And I feel like my chatter is pretty damn good. Like it's like years of experience. And I understand that baseball chat. First of all, this is West Coast baseball and I'm playing East Coast baseball, totally different thing. And it's insane out here, but I really do. I'm a, I'm a pretty strong believer in my ability to be a sideline and just, just to even be in the dugout and just doing chatter. But my son did silence me. He was just he was just like you know dad i've been talking to the other guys and they really kind of want you

to calm it down and i started talking to some of the players on his team they're like dude we never said that we love the way you did so i just i'm trying to be respectful of my kid and so but but i will say the other day in a very very close game you know there was a dad who plays in the nfl and one of his kids uh his kid was playing. I think his kid's one of the best in sort of Southern California. And my son came in to pitch against him and his dad was going crazy. So I started going crazy. My son struck him out and then and then hit a double, another ground rule double off of the kid. And I was like, I do believe that some part of that had to do with my just raising my, you know,

I'm, he's an NFL football player, but I'm a, you know, a professionally trained actor. So my voice, you know, I feel like I've matched his, uh, his intensity pretty well. That's hilarious. Just stay, stay off like a YouTube parent fight. I don't want that with John Bertholdt travel baseball brawl. Um, yeah, we still got to figure out the sports movie and you promised me you'd come on the rewatchables too at some point. John Bertholdt, travel baseball brawl. Yeah, we still got to figure out the sports movie. And you promised me you'd come on The Rewatchables too at some point,

as soon as you're not as busy. Listen, man, I think I mentioned last time, my best friend in the world, Dougie Thornell, he's my quarterback in high school. He is the biggest fan of The Rewatchables. He's the one who turned me on. All right, so you're coming on. Yeah, dude, and he's got a really, really strong play. He really wants revenge of the rewatchables he's going to turn me on he's all right so you're coming on yeah dude and he's got a really really strong play he really wants revenge of the nerds and uh oh wow and i strongly support it and if you do that man and and you want a sidekick i'm all yours man okay

all right tell me about the podcast that i haven't been invited on yet man you got the invitation you know look at the the the podcast is called The Real Ones. You know, look, it's really came out of this sort of conversation about the important issues of the day have really become about just completely agenda-driven flag waving. And I really find that, you know, so much of the conversation is being led by the wrong people, people who talk the talk instead of walk the walk.

It's experts, it's celebrities, it's pundits. So I've decided to, you know, kind of give whatever platform I have to the folks that I've learned the most from. And that those are, you know, street cops, they're special forces soldiers, they're surgeons, they're nurses, they're coaches, teachers.

And, you know, what I've found is in these people that are actually have boots on the ground and these sort of major issues of the day, they go to these issues with real empathy for folks who might be on the other side. So I've had episodes where I've had, you know, ex-gang members who have done 20 years in prison sitting there with the police that actually put them away. And what I find is they're finishing each other's sentences.

They have so much more in common than they do alike. And I figured, you know, these guys can sit down. Anybody can sit down. And the show is not about me. It's about the people that I bring on. And I, you know, I am can sit down, anybody can sit down. And the show is not about me. It's, it's about the people that I bring on. And, um, I, you know, I am not you, man. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not a, a, uh, I'm not considering myself a skilled interviewer, but I do a hundred percent believe in the people that I bring on. I think that they're incredible. And I think that they

lead with this sort of patriotism and this sort of masculinity and this sort of strength where, you know, the folks that I bring on, they, they, they lead with kindness. They, they, they walk the walk. They've got nothing to prove. They, they, they, they have real openness and, and, and ability to compromise and listen to folks that sort of think differently than them, have different political backgrounds in them, different racial backgrounds, different socioeconomic backgrounds, different sexual preferences preferences but i think there's nothing more american than that to be able to sit down with people that are different from you and and lead with respect and open-mindedness and know that you might have something to learn from them and uh look it's called the real ones i'm

super proud of it i'm really really grateful to the folks that that come on and and you know most of them are folks that i've known my whole life. And I've been really, really blessed to kind of grow up where I grew up and how I grew up. And then even more blessed to have the career that I had where I get to know these people. And again, I get this access into these communities and into these professions. And those are the folks that I'm bringing on. And I'm really excited about it. I'm really grateful to be doing it. Awesome. Well, congrats on the show.

Thank you, man. It's really, really good, man. I really hope more and more people see it, especially anybody who loved The Wire. I have no idea why they wouldn't be watching this. I'll see you in the rewatchables. Thank you, brother.

I appreciate you. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Jacoby and Wilds. Thanks to John Bernthal. Thanks to Kyle Creighton for producing, as always. Thanks to Steve Cerutti and Dylan Berkey. Back on this feed, late, late, late Thursday night after game one of the finals.

Don't forget, new rewatchables. There's a new one up, the Category Selection Show, and then Wednesday night as well. Copland, see you here on Thursday. On the wayside On the first side of the road I don't have to ever forget