The Bill Simmons Podcast - NBA Hall of Famers, KD's MVP Potential, and Messi vs. Ronaldo With Steve Nash | The Bill Simmons Podcast (Ep. 416)

Episode Date: September 19, 2018

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons sits down with Steve Nash to talk about his induction into the NBA Hall of Fame, spending time with the Golden State Warriors, MVP criteria, how to fix American soccer, Kylian Mbappé, Ronaldo vs. Messi, and Steve's new gig broadcasting Champions League soccer. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Tonight's episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast and the Ringer Podcast Network is brought to you, as always, by our friends at ZipRecruiter. You know what's not smart? Taping a podcast or finishing it up at six o'clock at night, right there in the middle of this Red Sox-Yankees game. Something crazy might happen. I might not even be topical in two hours. You know what also isn't smart? Job sites that overwhelm you with tons of the wrong resumes. Luckily, there's a smart way at ZipRecruiter.com slash BS. They find you right skills. People with the right skills for your job, actively invite them to apply. You get qualified candidates first. Right now, my listeners can try ZipRecruiter for free at

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Check that out. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where not only can you find this podcast, but a variety of other ones, including the Ringer NFL Show, which has been excellent this season, including Dual Threat with Ryan Rosillo, which is going up right around the same time this podcast is going up. He had Kevin Clark, Robert Mays, and myself on as guests. We did a little panel. And the question was, three years from now, which quarterback would you want the most? Who's going to be the best quarterback in the league in 2021? Assuming that there's going to be football in

2021, there might actually be a strike. Who the hell knows? Our answers will surprise you. This is really good. If you like this podcast, I promise you you will like Dual Threat with Ryan Russo, especially this conversation. We also talked a little about the Pats and Josh Gordon.

You might remember the last time you heard me on this podcast, I said some not so nice things about Josh Gordon. Just like, why would anyone trade for him? The guy hasn't done anything relevant in five years. He can't hold a job. He can't rely on them. And then the next day, the Patriots traded for him, my favorite team. So it's tough because I'm in that position where I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to be the guy who's rooting against something to work

out for my favorite team. But I am also not optimistic in the future of somebody who has not really been successful for five solid years. Five solid years is a long time. Five years ago, Donald Trump was trying to buy the Buffalo Bills. That's how long five years ago. We did this on Rosillo's Pod. I asked Nephew Kyle what he how long five years ago we did this on risola's pod i asked nephew kyle what he was doing five years ago and he said uh he was on hiatus from school i didn't even want to know what that was the best way to put it hiatus yeah we'll call it hiatus call it a hiatus i think that's when uh my wife was saying we gotta get we gotta get my nephew out here when she started calling me we gotta get him out of the East coast. We have to save

him. Yeah. So we talked about that. My answer will maybe not surprise you as much if you listen to the podcast the other day, but it was good conversation. That is an excellent podcast. We also have new episodes from the Dave Chang show this week, as well as Against All Odds, House of Carbs. I don't know if JJ Reddick has a new one this week, but well as Against All Odds, House of Carbs. I don't know if JJ Redick has a new one this week, but a whole bunch of good stuff coming up. And if you check out the ringer.com, our NBA preview started this week. Oh yeah, the NBA is coming back.

Always feels a little bit early since they moved the season. Not quite ready mentally to start thinking about basketball yet. And yet it turns out I was because I read every single piece we had over these last couple of weeks. One thing on the Ringer NBA show, which you should listen to because it's really good

and we have all kinds of different people on each week who work for the Ringer. We have special guests, all kinds of stuff. Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor have a podcast on the Ringer NBA show on Tuesdays. They now want to name this podcast and they sent a couple suggestions, which needless to say, I vetoed.

I did not like the suggestions. If you have a name for the Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor podcast, if you have an idea, send it to us. You can send it to us. Send it to either of their Twitter feeds. I think Chris Vernon is at Chris Vernon or it's Chris Vernon show. That's what it is. And then Kevin O'Connor is Kevin O'Connor MBA at Kevin O'Connor MBA. If you cannor NBA, at Kevin O'Connor NBA. If you can come up with a good name. I just wanted to call it Verno and KOC, but apparently that wasn't exciting enough. And then if Mays and Clark, Ringer NBA show on Mondays and Thursdays,

if you can think of an idea for that one, tweet at those guys. Bye, Kevin Clark. And then Robert Mays, I think he's just at Robert Mays. Speaking of Kevin Clark, he did the worst picks ever. We did a video for that on The Ringer. I think it went up last Wednesday. And this week's going up this Wednesday. He almost went 0-3. He almost did it.

Our goal is for him to do as bad as possible each week. He takes the three worst NFL picks and then explains why these are the three worst picks. The Lions prevented him with a garbage time touchdown from claiming 0-3, but he's got some good stuff in the works this week for that. And we are also, from a video standpoint, we're still in the shop with something with Roger Sherman, who just moved out to LA. And he's in the running for most eccentric ringer and play, Kyle. Yeah.

I just, I don't know enough. I'll never know enough. He's an enigma. Yeah. He's an enigma. That's a great way to put it. Enigma, right? Yeah. A delightful enigma.

What'd you call me? No, he's a delightful enigma. I'm kidding. He's definitely the number one candidate to, from an outfit standpoint, everything's on the table every day. You just don't know where you're gonna get it. So many questions.

So yeah, we're in the lab with him as well. And we have a bunch of NBA stuff. You might remember we did a NBA preview of Palooza last year. We're blowing that out this year. It's gonna be even better. It's super sized version of it. Very excited. Plus I can be in some of the stuff this year. So that's this year. It's going to be even better. It's super sized version of it. Very excited. Plus I can be in some of the stuff this year. So that's fun too. Anyway, coming up, Steve Nash,

Hall of Famer. We are talking basketball and soccer with him. And he's been on this pod before and you will enjoy it. And that's all I can think of right now. First up, Pearl Jam. Here we go. All right. So Steve Nash is coming up one second. I just realized I've known him now for 10 years. Mark Stein actually introduced me to him at some point in 07, 08. And we started talking. And at that point, Shaq was on the Suns. It was kind of going a little bit weird. And we just started kind of emailing back and forth.

And there was like this brief snippet of time when Nash was thinking about writing a book. And I was basically finishing up Book of Basketball. And I just read every NBA book that ever existed. And I really felt like Nash could be part of an awesome book. Because his brain just works differently than just about everybody. The things he sees on a basketball court, his thoughts on chemistry and where basketball is going and what makes a team succeed and the unselfishness. Like he just gets it.

We saw a lot of the same things the same way. And we started kind of emailing back and forth on what that book would like. And I think the emails were so candid that I think he realized pretty quickly oh yeah there's no way i can do this i'm still the best player in the phoenix suns i can't i i can't psychoanalyze like amari stoudemire in a book that would be crazy so um so we stayed in touch and then we ended up finally collaborating on uh the finish line Grantland, which was a little docu-series that we did about

his last season on the Lakers when his body was really falling apart. So we've known him for a long time, good conversations. And he's got this new gig where he's going to be on Turner as one of the analysts for Champions League. So that's why he came on, but always a fun excuse to talk to him, especially coming off the Hall of Fame. So here's Steve Nash right now. Steve Nash is here, Hall of Famer. It happened. What a class. Great class. I mean, it's really, really impressive because I thought the Hall of Fame, they had started to loosen the standards and then all of a sudden, boom. Well, it's such a, I mean, it's such a broad hall, right's global it's like you know you got um like rick welts who was fantastic and so you get it he adds a lot to our class right yeah frankly and you know

you got players from different dino raja and you know then you got the the nba guys so it's kind of cool in that you have this diversity but it is sometimes hard to realize like what is the criteria right yeah because it seems like i thought c-Web should have been in by now because college, he was the peak of his powers in the NBA. He was a top five guy and a potential best guy in a championship. Yeah. But then he was also this totally memorable college guy. Yeah. And who also kind of redefined the one and done thing and all that stuff.

I mean, he was an unbelievable college player. Unbelievable. Unicorn. I still feel like it's him or Duncan for me. And now Anthony Davis is in the conversation, but just most talented, powerful type guys. Yeah. You know, I always like to sneak in that conversation

that he just never really had the drive is Rasheed. Yeah. Talent wise. Yeah. You said talent man like Rashid at his peak when he was in Portland if he wanted it a little bit more I mean that's kind of the rub with him though right of course and KG was the other end where he wanted it so badly that's what made him great not that he wasn't a great athlete but i think that there was this one little chip in his brain where he didn't want to be the guy yeah he wanted to be like the supporting guy yeah he definitely was uh

it took him a while i think he got it's one of those things that becomes an echo chamber because he would make the right play in clutch time but every time going turnaround jumper for the game and they'd kill him for it and then it becomes this thing where it's like, wait a minute. Now should I stop making the right play every time? So I think sometimes that those discussions bother me. I get it. Sometimes you have to take responsibility, step up and shoot the ball. But if you're drawing a double team or if you're breaking the defense down and you can make a play for your teammate, you got to do that. I think.

KD's like that. I feel like KD makes the right play almost every time. Yeah. And when he gets in trouble is when, when people are like, you got to take over, man, you got to do it. And he's like, he's not really wired that way. The more he plays like a point guard or a playmaker, I think the more brilliant he is. Yeah. I think when he kind of gets, and I hate to say this isn't like a necessarily a knock, but the way they played in Oklahoma city all those years where he kind of like would have to like go out and hold his man off at 25 feet catch the ball face five guys and put the ball on the deck and try to take a tough pull up from 18 or wherever you know the less of that and the more of him just getting in a pick and roll or getting off the ball

and moving and getting off a pin down and putting it down breaking the defense down that's where he's like you know the best part of the world you know when he has to stand and like take on five guys defensively yeah he can still get you 25 but it's like it's not when he's dominant dominant what uh what'd you learn from being around the worries the last two years because i want to get back to the all-timers but you you that team curry is now top 25 ever. I think Durant is somewhere 15, 16 best players ever. And then Klay is one of the best shooters ever. Draymond's one of the best glue guy energy guys ever. Iguodala is one of the best swingman defenders.

What are you seeing when you're hanging out with them? I agree with all that. I mean, I just think it's like the confluence of some luck. You know what I mean? Like you need some luck. Like they got all four of those guys. Well, now it's, you know, Andre's five. You know, you saw how much they missed Andre.

And Andre's a brilliant basketball player, but you saw like he picks his spots during the year. But then when it matters, like he really elevates. Do you play with anybody like that? A pick their spots guy? Because it seems like every really good team has at least one guy like that. Going way back to the start, you know who was a little bit like that?

Who was brilliant? It was Danny Manning. Really? I don't want to say, I mean, this is when he was towards the end of his career and he'd had, you know, obviously the knee issues, but a brilliant basketball player. Like his mind, his ability to pass 6'10". I mean, what a basketball player. But, you know, he probably didn't have the motor

or the knee to carry a motor like he probably did when he was 25, right? Or whatever it was before he got hurt. So, but man, like Andre, you know, he just knew when to switch and when to be where and where the, you know, double teams were coming rotations. He could break people down with his vision and his passing, his footwork. I mean, that guy was a player.

You know, it's funny. Like, Gran Hill, C-Webb, Penny Hardaway, there's these guys that always get mentioned when we talk about, oh, man, the what-if guys. Oh, if that guy hadn't gotten hurt. Danny Manning never gets thrown in there. He should be, like, one of the first three guys. Yeah, I can't remember, like, as well as I should, but, but like i don't know if he got enough of a runway before the knee went

you know he didn't he got hurt early that's probably why yeah we saw with penny we saw with grant we saw with c-web like you know all the things that they did we saw them play like i mean grant hill like this new generation has no idea how good he was yeah i mean he was just he was a point forward he was more athletic than I mean, he was just, he was a point forward. He was more athletic than anyone on the court. He could pass. He could dunk on anyone. He'd get you 25, 30 and seven rebounds easy.

Similar to Penny in a sense, but he, you know, it was a different game then. They could put two hands on you. They could forearm you. They could knock you down. It was super physical. And for him to be able to do it in an era where there's less possessions and it was like wrestling out there you know grand hell was unbelievable and then david cern changed the rules so you could succeed

you single he's single-handedly you were the you were the impetus changed my career i think he he sought me out was like this poor kid from canada we gotta save this guy he's got no chance if they can put their hands on him, he's cooked. So, you know, we were talking about guys getting out of what they're totally comfortable doing. That first time you're in the playoffs, the Suns Spurs 05. And they were just like, hey, Nash, we want you to score. We're going to cover everybody else. Put up some points.

And you did it, but you didn't really like it. It also, the way our team was built, you know, like if I had to score like that all the time, it just, I mean, Pop, you know, he's the best, but it just limited not only the opportunities for us to get 110 points, because, you know what I mean? It was taken away from my teammates, but it also limited kind of our mojo, right?

Like our flow, like our energy of guys feeling like they can make a difference in this game. So you just get a little doubt creeps in and we just don't quite have that energy guys aren't quite on their toes and and rotations are a little softer and you know the trickle down effect but uh yeah i think looking back you know you you change things right but the rockets almost did that to the warriors in june they came damn close. They really knocked them out of the way they like to play and on top of just the grind of four straight finals and all that stuff. But they came as close as we've seen. Sure. I mean, they were unlucky not to win. But having said that, you know, watching the Warriors closely, I mean, they really didn't play to an acceptable

level in my eyes until the finals. I agree. And I'm talking from training camp. And I think it was just, it was a comedy of, I don't want to say comedy of errors, but like it was just, it was like the perfect storm for that to happen. Like you said, multiple finals in a row.

There was no new narrative. I've heard you talk about that before. Like they didn't have that like story, like we got to win it for cousins or whoever, Katie or whatever. Do you believe in that? I think there's something with that. You know, like you you especially like when you're a team that's so good like the warriors it's human nature to like not always have your foot on the gas a little bit i think or at least with certain teams and i think they have

that you know like they their personalities i think are a little bit susceptible to that um and so the other thing they start training camp a few weeks early, or maybe it was like a week early, I think, last year, to stretch the season a few days. Then they go straight off to China. Miserable. They barely get to practice in China. You get deconditioned.

You're doing events and photo ops and stuff, which is natural. We got to go and promote our game and do the things the league's done brilliantly. So it's not a slight, but you go to China, you decondition a little bit, you demotivated, you come back, you're jet lagged, you're out of it for two weeks because you're not just coming home and laying in bed. You're going straight back on the road. And so I think they were funky for just a long time. Like they just never broke out

of that. I know Steve was extremely patient, probably wanted to pull his hair out a number of times, but you know, he, brought up, Chuck Daly, I think, used to say, sometimes you got to wait on your team. Like, you just can't go, you know, shake the bushes early and then lose guys, right? You got to kind of wait on them, let them come around, give them that respect that they've earned. And so in my eyes, like, they didn't really,

I didn't feel like that desperation until obviously game seven of that series. And then you can make the arguments about, you know, how motivated Houston was, how unfortunate it was for them that Chris got hurt. And then likely, and also for the Warriors, I mean, Andre's such a big piece, especially in that series. Like the way Houston attacks you,

to have a defensive presence like that and another point forward on the floor, that was huge. But somehow, some way, there they are in the finals again, and then they turn it up a notch, and we know what happened. Yeah, it helps when you have all-time guys on the floor. That was huge. But somehow, some way, there they are in the finals again, and then they turn it up a notch, and we know what happened. Yeah, it helps when you have all-time guys on your team. It's crazy. Oh, is that extra gear? Did you see when you watched how close Houston came and they didn't make it, were you getting flashbacks?

You know what I get more flashbacks from? And I hope this doesn't sound like come off the wrong way, but was it the year before they lost to the San Antonio? Yeah. And Harden, you know, he kind of disappeared those last two games. I'm not necessarily,

I don't remember a time when I necessarily disappeared and I'm not saying he disappeared, but I could relate to being that focal playmaker and how exhausted you could be, right? Like, I think looking back, you know, people have talked recently about, you know, I should have shot more and Mike says that and all that. But really, I think we probably should have done a better job

of either finding or empowering a second side pick and roll player. You know, because typically if I didn't create a play for a teammate or create an advantage that led to something, I'd have to run, you know, my teammates would hold it and I'd have to run back out and get it at 25 feet and go again, you know, and a hundred games in, you know, when you're 178 pounds, I struggle with that. You know, I struggle with that. It's not an excuse. I got to play in a system that I played my best basketball and I got a lot of freedom. I had a lot of responsibility, but I had a lot of freedom. I played at a high level, but at the same time,

you get deep in the playoffs and you're going against a brilliant 6'11 guy like Tim Duncan who can anchor things at both ends of the floor. That was a big mountain for me. Well, you just made the case for why they went and got Chris Paul the next year. Exactly. So that's why I didn't want to necessarily relate to that series

because I think that was a whole different, that was a team that had, you know, they had some balance and they were fit for this kind of summit attempt. Yeah. And, you know, I still think the Warriors were a better team overall, but man, like my hat's off to the players, to Daryl, to Mike for, I mean, can you believe it? That someone gave the the warriors like us you know what i mean in a way i gave him a seven game run like that and you know i do still put it down to the warriors it didn't quite get

to their level by the end in time to to kind of blow that theory up but um but hats off to them i mean they're right there you had that near the, that last one good team you were on, the 2010 team, I think. Dragic was kind of, he'd come in and take a little bit of a load off you, right? I mean, well, you know, even that, like he had moments. Yeah. But we didn't, he wasn't, I don't think, and maybe he wasn't quite ready, but he wasn't empowered. He definitely wasn't ready.

He wasn't empowered enough or slash ready. I think the two things, Obviously, he turned into an unbelievable player and was kind of unlucky not to be a multiple All-Star thus far in his career, but he did play this year in the All-Star game deservedly, and he's a great competitor, a great player. If we had

maybe had him two years later in his career, it would have been huge. Do you feel like you guys in the mid-2000s figured out the spacing the way they figured it out now? Because it was like a primitive version of it. Yeah, I think, I mean, at that stage we did, I think partly by necessity,

we didn't really have a post-up player. We didn't really have multiple ball hands. We were small. Remember that was, oh, what are they going to do? They don't have anyone to post up. And it's like now everyone wants to play that way. Right. And I think that Mike's, part of Mike's, you know,

imprint on the game was he was very, he gave me a lot of freedom to make plays, but he was, he told guys like, you have to run to the corner. You can't like hover six feet from the corner. Like I want you almost under the basket. Like, you know what I mean? So far in the corner that the backboards, you know, you're behind the backboard. And just little details like that, screening, like trying to get the guy to go over on the screen,

defending a screen so I could get in the lane instead of like going under and me taking a ton of shots. You know, let me get in the paint and try to make plays for my teammates. And I think that made us really difficult to defend. And I think we're seeing a lot of teams that are, and there was other people, you know, Nelly, I think had an influence on it somewhere along the line. I think, you know, the Orlando team, Stan, you know, they, they, they played a similar style. There's a few others I'm probably forgetting, but there's some people that have done similar things. I think you put it all together and the game evolves and

people start to say, hold on, there's something we can do here. And I think with the rule change, obviously, I know I'm going over things we've already gone over. The rule changes, the three seconds, defense of three seconds and the hand checking. It just promoted the evolution of this style of game, which I think has made our league a lot more fun. We haven't talked about Don Nelson. How great was that? What a haircut. I mean, but also like, I think. He looked like think Netflix character,

he did first of all, like would have been probably great in like sons of anarchy or maybe even Ozark. I don't know. Yeah. Somewhere in there. I was thinking Ozark, like season four, it hasn't even happened yet. Former basketball coach has gone to the dark side. But I think one thing, I don't know if this is what it took me a minute to notice why he was so unrecognizable and not just the hair and the beard, but first of all, he, he must've lost 40, 50 pounds. Like when I played for him, yeah, it's 80. I mean, he had the gut and, you know, look totally unhealthy. Now the guy looks great. How old is he? I mean, he was playing in the mid seventies, so he's got to be at least 72, 73, 74. Yeah, yeah.

Amazing. What a delight, let's say, to see Nelly after all these years. It was awesome. Do you think he gets the fair amount of credit at this point? Doesn't feel like he does. Yeah, maybe not. I mean, he's, I mean, back when I played for him, he'd been in the league like 40 years as a player. He'd won championship, coached at an extremely high level,

had, I think, affected the game in a lot of ways. Yeah. Offensively, for sure. But even some of his, I think, Milwaukee teams, from what I heard, were great defensive teams. Yeah. He also, I think, was influential with the rules at different times. So the guy, he's a basketball savant.

You know, we throw those words, genius savant, around a lot, but the guy had such a big impact on our league. If you really dig under a little bit and you know, especially with today's new cycle. Did he scream at you? He did. Yeah. He had a huge impact on me because I just didn't want to shoot. I just didn't want to be aggressive. And he, he would, I mean, it got to a boiling point where he was like, because, you know, you'd have the odd game where we'd be down. I remember this one time we were playing Atlanta and we were down big at the half. And I think I had five points at the half

and I had 35 in the second half in overtime. And I think I missed the shot of the buzzer. And, you know, he basically just came straight at me after the game and was like, that's bullshit. If you're a dominant, like in front of everyone screaming at me if you're a dominant player you know what I mean and I was like shit man I just left everything out there on the court but finally that's how reluctant I was finally the message got through with it it was like you're you're being selfish right you're hurting our team like go score put pressure on the defense and

that was that was a pivotal and influential kind of thread in my career was him kind of berating me at times, but also just pushing me to score and shoot the ball. Whereas, you know, I think the way I grew up, especially because I wasn't like a dominant athlete, I was taught a point guard, like go five for eight from the field. You know what I mean? Like make your teammates better, make good decisions,

make sure your team's on balance, control the tempo, all those things. Right. Whereas we don't even, I don't even know if we talk about those things with kids anymore. Like I really don't. So just a different era. And I think I held onto those kinds of like, um, ideas so strongly that it was probably for the worst. Who's the closest to that now? Is there anybody like that now good question i mean even like so i mean chris is uh chris chris is on the on the tail end of it chris for sure i mean i think for sure chris paul i mean so you're you're in on monzo because i'm all in i think he could be a terrific player yeah i don't i don't understand why people are wondering whether he's gonna be good or not he is good i the thing that the thing that drives me a little bit crazy is that people are judging 20-year-olds.

Yeah. You were at Santa Clara when you were 20. I was a 22-year-old rookie in the league. I remember Dirk Nowitzki was going to be out of the league at 20. He wasn't good enough, right? And I was like, what's he getting? It was his hair. People were profiling him.

The solo hoop earring and the buck teeth. Crazy German guy. We didn't know what buck teeth but you know he worked on those but he uh but i was just like you know this guy's so skilled loves the game so much he's seven feet tall he moves well like he's not a great athlete but he moves really well and i and the way we we throw athlete around is only explosiveness and that's that's not what an athlete is and it's like west for westbrook type athlete and that's it. And that's it. Whereas some guys just move extremely well, coordinated, can shoot, touch, feel hands. So, you know, Dirk had this other type of athleticism to go with this

incredible jump shot, seven feet, the mobility, like I said. So I was just like, what's he going to be at 25? And he loves the game. And, you know, even talking about those what if players, you know, the best players in our game, 99% of the time are mentally the best players loves the game. Yeah. And, you know, even talking about those what if players, you know, the best players in our game, 99% of the time are mentally the best players in our game. Like they're the toughest, most resilient mentally, you know, they'll, they'll sacrifice day after day to be there early, stay late and prepare to play. So that's what like, so Josh Gordon right now, we're taping this on a Monday guy in the Browns and, and they're finally going to waive him or trade him.

He hasn't really played in five years, and all these teams are trying to get him. And I'm just always amazed when this happens because at some point you are who you are. Yeah. And part of being a professional athlete is just the day-to-day responsibility of, like, showing up on time, putting the time in,

all that stuff. And if somebody doesn't have it, they don't have it. Super underrated. I mean, I don't want to talk about Josh because I don't know his story. I know he has addiction issues. I'm just saying it's more than risky. Teams are like, oh, the Cowboys, they could throw him in. It's like, we don't know if this guy can play.

No, it's 100%. This is something I'm super passionate about is player development, whether it's with the Warriors or the Canadian national team or ownership stake in the Vancouver Whitecaps and Real Mallorca, the Spanish soccer team. One of the things that I've learned through my experiences and a great anecdote is I read this book about Barcelona and their academy is called La Masia,

and it's produced thousands of pros over the years, not just at Barcelona. They go and play everywhere in the world, right? And they say the number one predictor of success is resilience. So they've had Messi, they've had Fabregas, you know, go down the line of all the great players they've had in their academy for years and years and years. And they say that it's not feet and skill and vision, athleticism, speed, strength, resilience is the number one predictor of success. And I, for me, I try to work on our academies of like, let's, we should try to teach that from 12, like throw it out there as a thing. Like we're

going to work on the resilience muscle. Okay. That's, it's not just feed and technical and tactical. And I think that a lot of, I don't even know how you work on that though. So I think it's got to come from the human being and that's it. That's true. That's true. But what I'm saying is that let's work on it. Let's throw it out there at 12. Let's tell them what it is. Let's tell them that the best have it. And let's tell them that we're going to talk to them about this. And this is going to be a recurring thing we're going to judge you on.

So in a week when a kid has a spaz in a training session, you can say to him, come here, put your arm around him and say, how'd you think you did in the five a side today? He's like, fine. And you're like, well, I saw you give up pointing fingers, stop tracking back. And you can say that's the resilience muscle. Okay. Now, if you have six or eight episodes of that

in half a season with the kid and he doesn't respond or connect to it, I'm going to guess that by 15, 16, probably in the same boat. And now you probably know, like he should probably go to another academy, right? What we do is we wait till the kid's 22, know, like, he should probably go to another academy, right? What we do is we wait till the kid's 22, 23, 24, you know, like sometimes 27, 28, we'll just slot. What would

he do with the Cowboys? It's like, he's already kind of showed his colors. Like you show me how many guys have turned a corner. They got to be so few and far between to be after 19, 20, 21. I mean, I guess 21, after 21 to turn a corner as far as resilience, mental strength, you know, professionalism, that's difficult. Well, and that seems like with the NBA, the best guys to get are these like high draft picks who are in the wrong situation. And this is like the history of the league. Those are always the best guys to trade for. Guys with some sort of pedigree that you can just say, yeah, I think Oladipo is a really good example.

Oladipo goes to Orlando. They force him to play point guard. He's not a point guard. He's just on bad teams. He gets traded to play with OKC. He's Westbrook's sidekick, never has the ball. Then finally goes to Indiana and he blossoms. But then when you read the stuff about him,

the amount of time he put in his body to reshape himself, like he just wouldn't accept it. Those are the guys. For sure. So that's resilience. Chauncey Billups was like that. He bounced around, but he couldn't find the right place. I mean, you were like that. You were in Phoenix with two Hall of Fame point guards on your team. Yep. That is resilience. And I think Oladipo is a great example, right? Where people were starting to look at him as like, oh, you know, maybe he's not as whole summer, you see yourself transform, you go out and you feel a little bit of success. It's like, whoa, wait, you know what I mean? Like if I do that again, where am I going to be? So I think he's a guy that we're going to see, like he's proven he has that resilience. And if he can persevere, I mean, he's going to have a hell of a career. I've been monitoring that with Tatum who came on my podcast last month you know I had a great rookie

season put like a hundred games you know went toe-to-toe with LeBron and the experience he got last season was phenomenal I really want to see how he handled it what's what's the summer gonna be like is he gonna be on Instagram like sure we're holding the phone up at parties at three in the morning all that everything was just about basketball with him all summer it was like he's at a gym here is that a gym here I was like was like, he's at a gym here. He's at a gym here. I was like, that's good. He's passing checkpoints here. Yeah.

I mean, who knows if he's doing the other stuff, but I love that he's not, doesn't feel the need to show the other stuff, right? Like you can do that. Like, I don't, you know, like I, I probably had too many beers too many times, but like I was always going to be first in the gym. He had that one classic photo that was circulating again.

Which one? You and Dirk. You and Dirk at the party. There's plenty. There's plenty. We could do a whole show on those. But, you know, I, like, I,

and I don't, I'm not saying that to condone that. I'm saying, like, especially nowadays. And you're in your 20s. You're a professional athlete. You're going to make mistakes.

Like, try to, I would say, just try to limit your mistakes. Be smart. Pick your spots. And, but what I love is, what I don't love is when someone feels like they have to broadcast that side of their life.

That's when you're like, wait, how much does that mean to them versus how much does the game mean to them? Well, it's definitely a new era for, and for mostly positive for NBA players where their ability to connect with fans through social and the fans really feel like these guys are in their lives. for NBA players where their ability to connect with fans through social. And the fans really feel like these guys are in their lives. You and Dirk were in Dallas 15 years ago. I just saw you in League Pass and TNT and ESPN.

I didn't think about you otherwise. Yeah. Thankfully, you know, these guys deal with a lot. And it's a different and more difficult time, I think, to be a professional athlete, be in the spotlight in many respects. And, you know, these guys handle it largely with incredible, I don't know, grace? I don't know what you'd call it, but like it's incredible to be 20 years old, have this money, this fame, this access. And like so many of them, you know, are handling it with aplomb. It's crazy.

I've talked about this before on the pod, so my apologies to the listeners. But this generation, I'm really impressed by just how they handle their business. You came up in the opposite generation. There was a lot of guys who could not handle their business. And maybe this generation learned from the mistakes of the previous generation.

I think LeBron and Wade and these guys coming in and the stuff they care about on and off the court has been the best thing that could happen to these guys because they all want to emulate those guys. They do. There's some great examples. I mean, obviously LeBron to be able to manage his career and spotlight from way before he came into the NBA to be one of the greatest players ever

and to not make a mistake in the social digital age. You know, like it's pretty, it's unfathomable. I mean, he's incredible. One more thing on Lonzo, just not to let that one go, because I'm glad you see it. I keep reading how he's not going to, how's he going to play with LeBron? And he needs the ball.

And it's like, nobody's actually seemed to have watched this guy play. He actually doesn't need the ball. He gets rid of the ball immediately. You're right. I think that's what's cool about him is he's this point guard who's just trying to move the ball to the right guy immediately. He doesn't need the ball for nine, 10 seconds. Yeah.

I mean, I guess the questions that I had about him were, is his mechanics on a shot going to hinder him? I think he's made enough shots that he can be a good standstill shooter a catch and shoot guy which is super important yeah um i wouldn't be surprised if he develops my question is with the with his mechanics can he go right and pull up and do that stuff no okay but not everyone's a pull-up mid-range player you might need to go to steve nash camp you teach him the one-legged shots. Yeah, well, he'll get them.

All these guys are doing all those things. But I would say his mechanics, but I think he makes enough or will eventually make plenty of threes. I also worried a little bit about his motor. And I think more of that is because he is a bit like of a team guy. You know what I mean?

So you give and you take. And I've also seen plenty of games with him where his defensive energy is outstanding. I think he is a chance to be the first team all defense point guard. Why not? I mean, he's long and he's got that fight. So think about this Lakers team,

which everybody has somehow written off because they didn't get a free agent. Lonzo, LeBron, Brandon Ingram, Hart. I'm leaving out somebody. Kuzma. Kuzma. They have one more bigger guy. They signed somebody who can be the rebounder, defender guy.

I'm blanking. But if Ingram goes up one more level, he doesn't have to be like an all-star. But if he can be a little more reliable offensively with the stuff LeBron does and the energy those home games are going to have, I think they're going to be pretty good. I think they're like a top four seed. I think they're going to be good.

I look at those four young guys. I like them all. Very competitive. Skillful. I love Ingram. As far as a guy who can do a lot of things on the basketball court. But Hart, terrific. Kuzma has got a shot to be

really good. So like, let's not forget, you put them with LeBron James. I mean, that's a team that'll be tough to beat night in, night out. And like you said, with the energy of Staples, especially with this, you know, Lakers fans, it's been tough. So the energy is going to be double

just because it's going to be such a rebirth. It's going to be an event. It's going to be so hard to get tickets. Exactly. If they get on a roll. What current player are you most jealous you didn't get a chance to play with? Who would have been the perfect fit for you?

That's a good question. Anthony Davis? That's what I was thinking, like. Yeah. Unleashed as the like 2006 Amari, 2007 Amari. I mean, he'd be an incredible pick and roll partner. He also protects the rim. You know, can guard anyone basically.

Yeah. He's shooting the ball now. He's kind of a dream. Pick a power forward center. I mean, today's game he can play the five, which leaves you more space for more versatile players around him. Yeah. He'd be a dream to play with for sure. Do you think Giannis can go up one level? What needs to happen? I do.

Other than the jump shot, whichever that talks about. Yeah. Again, I look at Giannis' jump shot and I see two things. I see one, his mechanics aren't bad at all. And I see a kid that gets in the gym religiously. So for me, he's going to be a very good shooter, you know? So we'll see if that can come quickly while he's still, you know, a crazy athlete and has this length and can play five positions. So yeah, sky's the limit. I mean, he, he could, you know, him, Anthony Davis, you know, there's a few other guys that have this kind of ceiling that's just a little bit higher than everyone else's. And now it's just a matter of, are they lucky to stay healthy? Do they get the opportunity with their team and the chemistry and the way that the rosters fall where they can really shine

and grow with them? And that's important. You know, you can be a great, great player, but if you don't get that continuity and chemistry with your teammates, you're always kind of like, you know, before this year, you know, we started to almost forget about Anthony Davis, right? Yeah. He's so good. And yet, because the team was funky and was in transition, you know, until they made a little playoff run this year, everyone was like, it was almost like he was an afterthought. I'll be curious to see how long he stays in that situation because this new, this current generation is just kind of swipe right. I don't like my situation.

Swipe right. Let's swipe right again. Oh, this team. Okay. And I, you know, this is the biggest thing that's changed this decade, player empowerment. That's true. Your decade when, like when you jumped from Dallas to Phoenix,

it was a big deal. Yeah. And it was like, it was kind of shocking. And it wasn't even really your choice if they had offered you the right number you would have stayed i wanted to stay i mean look that you're right player empowerment and lebron and i i say this and like i respect him for it he he's had such an influence on the game when he was like no i'm gonna go to miami try to win a few championships you know that's empowerment that's him saying hold on a second i have cards

here to play it's not like no i gotta stay here and stick it out and you know take my lumps which was the kind of notion of of prior generations but who's winning that right like the player doesn't win he gets panned for never winning yeah so i i understand why guys do it and that's just the ebb and flow and it takes someone with that kind of foresight and guts like LeBron. And I mean, people say, oh, guts, you know, he goes and joins Wade and Bosh. And then obviously Kevin got bashed for doing the same thing only with an even better situation. And, but that's, that's the cycle of the game and the media has a big influence on it. And the fans, you know, partake in the media's kind of, you know, narratives.

And so I, I, I totally understand why he did that. Why players are willing to do that now as, you know, not like my generation. And then also, like you said, the swipe right kind of ethos of being a kid nowadays, right? Like it's just, you have so many options at your fingertips that, you know, and you and I, like our attention spans are like probably what compared to they were when we were, you know, kids even. Oh my God. There's just too much going on way too much going on i think dirk is the best case scenario

for the old school way of having it turn out right where he just stayed he stayed he stayed and then they had this miraculous right when everybody had kind of given up on them winning a title and then they actually won and he's still celebrating i think seven years later yeah no i mean he is and there's something to be said for that right like to have that continuity um obviously you got a little good fortune with like tyson chandler and the chemistry and some of the guys that joined the team at the right time right kind of the season too they're like okc wasn't ready yet miami was a year from your first year yeah with with hard it is your first year? Yeah. When Wade, Bosh, and LeBron, their first playoffs together,

you haven't been there together. So that look, like we've been here before we got this, we're under serious pressure right now, but we know how to get out of this. That's not there. You kind of, they earned that that year.

Yeah. But Dallas won the championship. But maximum respect. That's a championship that'll never be taken away from him. Dirk. I can't believe he's still playing. Last time you were here like a year ago and we were like, I can't believe Dirk's still playing.

And now Dirk's playing. I just hope we don't say that next year. It seems like he's just happy. Yeah. He enjoys it. He is. I think, I think he, if I, I don't want to speak out of turn, but I get the impression that this is it. And he wants to do it one more time as much because,

not because he's going to go out there and try to win a championship or average 20 or whatever it is. I think he's loved having this life. He's loved being a teammate. He's got some young guys on his team to mentor. He can say goodbye to his organization, his fans, and most importantly, his career in the right way with a nice little window of time here, these kind of eight months,

whatever it is. I'm sure it doesn't hurt that Doncic is there and he can mentor another Euro. We like him, right? We love him. I was going nuts. First of all, I couldn't believe he didn't go first. And then second, I couldn't believe somebody traded out of the spot to

take him after he fell to third. I was like, what are these teams doing? I would have had zero problem with him going first. I thought he was a great first pick. You know, he has so many skills. He's, he's, he's a size, he's pedigree. I mean, to be, I think you're talking about the resilience gene just played like a 95 game season against 18 years. 18 years old. I mean, Euro MVP. Yeah. Those are NBA caliber. Nobody cares. We're never going to learn with this stuff.

Apparently that doesn't matter. He's unbelievable. So, you know, and you never know in the draft, right? You never know, but you're right. Resilience, skill level, size, pedigree. I mean, he's got it all. Let's take a quick break to talk about one of my old friends, stamps.com. These days you can get practically everything on demand,

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slash Simmons today. Enter gift code Simmons to save $20 on your first shirt. Back to Steve Nash. Tell me about the Hall of Fame weekend, the biggest surprise. Because you're going there and you have no idea what to expect. What were you most surprised by? Well, you know, like, first of all, you know, I hate to say this, I kind of dread it in a sense

because things that I don't do well, I get anxiety, like, when I go somewhere and you're going to be scheduled for 48 hours or more straight. I'm just like, whoa. Yeah. You know? So that, making a speech, it's like, you know, I've never written a speech.

I always just wing it. And I was like, I probably need to think about this one a little bit. And of course, I actually wrote notes for a speech before I put my suit on at the hotel and went over. And so that's stupid because that caused anxiety. But Grant Hill brought up a great point. He's like, you know, they wanted us. Actually, we had to submit speeches like four weeks prior.

So Jenny, who runs my foundation, wrote a speech that I never read and submitted it just so they wouldn't worry about it. That actually was playing on the teleprompter when I was making my speech. And you were doing your own thing. The teleprompter guy was going up and down trying to find it. No, not even read a word. So, so, you know, I kind of had a little anxiety about the whole thing. So I guess the way I handled it worked out. I had an unbelievable experience. You know, so many friends, I stayed out of it. They, my Jenny organized all the invites. I just

didn't want to know. I had no expectations. No one had to come. I wasn't worried about anything like that. So many people came, got through the speech, dipped out of as many things on the schedule that was appropriate to like still enjoy my kids and have a good time. Yeah. To go in with Grant, Jason, and Ray. Ray and I drafted together to play our whole careers together.

Grant, one of my favorite teammates and people. Jason Kidd and I go back to college, working on the summers, playing against each other. Played together in Phoenix. So to go in with those guys, Rick Welts, you know, even more. I mean, unbelievable class to go in with personally, not just as people and players and employees. And then, I don't know, the biggest surprise was probably,

we had four kids, we're four kids there. My wife and I, we sat down, little one-year-old bouncing up and down on my lap. And like, I just kind of like, it was weird because Grant started his speech. People were still kind of coming in the auditorium. And like, I just looked over my head and you know, like we see all the ex-players,

you know, fairly regularly, but it was just something that I just looked over my head and I was like we see all the ex-players you know fairly regularly but it's just something but i just looked over my head and i was like larry fucking bird walking down the aisle you know it just hit me i was just like you know you know what i mean like we never i never really see him probably never leaves where is he in indianapolis or florida or whatever most of the time indianapolis and uh it was just like you know i I see Bill Russell all the time at all-star weekends. And every time you see him, it's super cool. Or, you know, I see Isaiah, who was my hero, who I wanted to emulate. It's cool. But I see him fairly regularly. So seeing Bird walk down

the aisle, I was like, wow, kind of struck me. I was like, this is a big deal. So when Chris starts to lose his fastball a little bit here, because he's like, this is year 15 for him. Who's the next guy in that legacy? Who's the next point guard? Can it be Lonzo? The old school Isaiah DNA point guard. I don't feel like we have it right now. You know what?

I'd have to like literally go over everyone and make sure I'm not missing someone. But Lonzo has that DNA. You know, also, you know, he's got some work to do, but he has a lot of good things. You know, I think we got to be careful because he's very young and he went high in the draft and he also got traded for a guy that could be a generational player.

But Trae Young can really pass the ball. Oh, good. Okay. He can really pass. He has a real feel to get rid of it early, to make late passes, to make all the passes. You know, he has a natural ability to, you know, to get that thing humming around and with energy and makes the good passes, to make all the passes. You know, he has a natural ability to, you know, to get that thing humming around and with energy and makes the good passes,

but also makes the simple passes he throws ahead. So, and with his shooting ability, you know, he's got a chance to be really good. Now, he's a little guy and he's got to figure out the league and he's whatever, 19, 20 years old. So that's going to take a minute, but he's got a chance to be a special point guard. I loved watching him in college.

I think teams started beating the hell out of him and he faded. And I don't like the situation he went to. And this is a good test case because I didn't want him to go to just a bad team with high expectations where it's like they've thrown the season away, basically. It's tough and full disclosure the new head coach of the hawks lloyd pierce is a close friend college teammate i hosted him on his recruiting visit santa clara and i love him and he's great so you're going to the hawks i'm not you know i'm loyal to stevie kerr and the boys but yeah he he's a great guy he will lead and mentor him um and the organization will but you know they're dealing with so much today these kids like you like you said the situation you get in

you know it can be it could be like too much spotlight too much demand too much expectations and all that sometimes changes the perspective and then there's a narrative created that makes it like it's almost impossible for a kid to succeed sometimes so well and you're also not allowed to suck. Yeah. Che Young sucked in his first two Summer League games. We even talked about it on this podcast. We're like, what's wrong with Che Young?

It's Summer League. The guy's 19. He's 19. And he showed some really good flashes in Summer League, right? Near the end, yeah. So for example, his first game, I think Lloyd, his new coach, would say after the game, he was like 5 for 20 or something. He's like, what I saw is he got 20 of his shots off, which he was worried, you know, like, can he get him off of this level on summer league? But like, is he going to be able to? And he was like, he got his, he got his looks. He missed them. Right. But those are going to go in. We've seen them go in. It's about confidence, rhythm, playing with new teammates, playing with new rules. You know, that, that, that just takes adaptation. Right. So for him, again, like everyone, he's going to be a great point guard if he's resilient, right? And he fights and he's willing to fight people defensively, you know, because he's not going to be a dominant defender, but he's willing to fight and scrap and stay glued to

someone going off pin downs and stay attached on pick and rolls. If he can do that stuff, he's going to have a great great career be a great point guard durant has one mvp duncan had two lebron has four bird had three in a row i think those are the four best forwards ever probably ken durant win a second mvp does it matter does it matter to his ultimate, like the whole body of work? I don't think so. He definitely can win another one. I mean, he's that good. Because he's turned 30. I think he turns 30 at the end of this month. Yeah.

29th, I think. He can definitely win another MVP. I mean, he's that good. Because it's sitting there for him this season if he wants it. Unless you know, if the Lakers win 60 plus, I think it would head LeBron's way. I think Giannis is a year away.

I don't think Davis's team is good enough. Boston, everybody's going to be too good on that team. Too much balance. You just kind of go through, and Houston probably missed their window last year, and that could come back to Durant. It's like if he has a career season or want to, you know, on that level, Warriors go 68 and 14. It's sitting there.

It is. I wonder if you could say the same thing for Curry too. You could. They're both right there and they're prime of their career, 30 years old, I think both of them. And, and, and they have a great team. Now, does it really matter in the grand scheme of thing? Like if they add another two championships and if, if Kevin gets another one or two finals MVPs and he's got, you know, three, four finals MVPs and an at regular season MVP scoring titles, 15, whatever all-star games, you know, I, I don't know. Well, we always, I mean,

I talk about this stuff with him when he does the pod, but it's a recurring thing. Like, I guess my question is what does matter? Like if, I guess if you matters to be on a really good team and to do as well as you possibly can. But now we talk about this whole rings culture and, you know, Barkley never won a ring. So his career didn't matter. That swung too far the other way. But at the same time, time durant now has a chance to be one of the best 10 guys of all time you know and i think that does matter i think that's a

significant thing you'd have to ask him i mean and i'm not sure he even knows what matters to him yet like he kevin's i don't think he does either he's kevin's uh i don't want to say complicated but like he he's no he's complicated he's deep like he's sensitive he has like a you know there's stuff in there with him that he's a you know he he definitely feels and thinks and and i think sometimes he he's taking i don't know like sometimes i think he's still trying to figure out what it is that makes him tick you know i know one thing is that he loves to play basketball loves it just to play that's why he likes Kyrie because both of those guys all they wanted to just play basketball and not not deal

with other crap you know when he when he was you know obviously I had a well I don't know if it's obvious but I had a relationship with Kevin before he came to the Warriors and I was with the Warriors and it helped you know it kind of transitioned him there and you know one of the things that I'd said to him I was like well you know you obviously, you're going to get a chance to win some championships here. And he said, he's like, that, that really doesn't matter to me. Like, you know, and I don't think he meant that he doesn't want to win championships. He's like, that is not what's going to move me from OKC or have me go to a new situation. He's like, I really, I want to be challenged as a person. I want a new environment. You know, I want like those type of themes. So,

you know, while he's here winning finals, MVPs and championships, you know, his motivation to move, I think was to be pushed and to learn from Stevie Kerr, to be in that type of environment, to live in a new part of the world and experience new things. So that was that. I think it was that. And I think, I think he also felt like there was a higher level of basketball out there that he wasn't involved in. I think that's what I meant by like be pushed by Stevie. I think push player and person. It seemed like those.

And I don't know. I put a lot of thought into it because I definitely, when LeBron left to Miami, I was horrified. I didn't get it at all. I thought it was really shitty. I mean, the way he did it to the city of Cleveland was shitty, but I didn't get it. And I think as this decade's gone along, not just me,

but I think a lot of people would kind of think about, all right, what's the motivation there? And with him, it was clearly like, I am stagnating here. I need to go somewhere else. Well, I think LeBron looked at it like, this is, like you said, the rings culture. And he's like, I am not going to sit back when I can control this. Right. So he was like, I have to go win championships. And he'd also, he'd really been let down by his front office and his ownership

and they'd spent money and done the wrong things. And he was kind of looking at it, probably going, I don't, I don't want to lose my prime here. It was a boss move and I respect it, you know? And, and he won himself some championships and has been in the finals for seven decades since, you know what I mean? It's, it's awesome. But he, you know, but I think Kevin interestingly kind of followed suit, but for different reasons. Yeah. And so that's where it's, you know, I, I, going back to the original thought is like, you'd have to ask him what his motivation is that, you know, I think in a lot of ways, Kevin's searching for joy, not accolades and resume. I think if you ask him and press him, he'd be like, yeah,

I'd rather be top five than top 10 or top 10 than top 20 or whatever. But I don't really think that's his central motivation. Kobe clearly wanted six rings. That drove any decision he made and made him crazy. I'm not defending some of the choices he made as a player, but that was clearly a number in his head. It was like, I want to win more than Shaq did, and I want to win as many as MJ. There was never any doubt in his motivation. No, there wasn't.

And you look at other guys, KG is somebody, I think he just wanted to win one. He wanted it so bad he couldn't even. But somebody like Duncan, I think that guy just year after year just wanted to be respected as I'm an awesome teammate. I've won some rings. I want to try to win another one next year. And that was it.

I don't think he cared about anything else. I mean, in your office, in the ringer, let alone an NBA team, everybody has a different personality and mindset, right? Different things that make them tick. An NBA team is no different. And, you know, like Pop and Timmy are a match made in heaven. I mean, you know, it's just, well, they're one of the greatest player coach we've ever seen, right?

So, and then Kobe has his own thing. And then KG and Kevin, you know, every player, you know, I had my own things. And so a lot of that is always going to be kind of, I don't know, seen through the lens of the narrative. And sometimes I think we don't respect, unless someone's all about championships, the Mamba mentality thing has taken on a whole life of its own. And it's like this massive, massive thing. But, you know, I don't think like the counter is respected, whereas maybe it should be like, we're wired the way we're wired and you can develop and change in certain ways, but, you know, not everyone's going to be like that. And so you, you had, they have to, to reach their maximum, they have to do it in the lens, the prism of their own personality. First and foremost, I know I'm getting kind of... No, I see what you're saying. I think every situation is different.

There's no right way to lead a team. But I think you know it when you see it. You know, like the 14 Spurs, when they flipped the table on Miami that year and in the finals, it was just everybody's playing for each other. Nobody's counting stats. That was unbelievable.

There's no alpha dog. They just were who they were. And was unbelievable. There's no alpha dog. It was just, they just were who they were. And I thought that happened to you in 2010. And that team came really close to making the finals and probably could have,

but it was just, everybody's pulling for each other. And I think. That's higher level, right? Like that's. So you know when you see it. Way greater than the sum of the parts. Yeah.

It's beautiful. I mean, that Spurs team was playing some just beautiful basketball. The Warriors, the first time they won the title with KD in that Cleveland series, I felt like they got there in game three and game five, especially. Just great players, but nobody really cared about what was going on other than just listening. Sacrificing, sharing, running the floor, making a cut,

even if you might not get it or you know you're not going to get it. Like those type of little things that takes a lot of trust to sacrifice like that. Like if you trust in the motives of your teammates, you're going to be willing to sacrifice. If you're like, I'm not sure about him. Why the hell would I make this cut so that he might get an open shot and guys start cutting corners, you know what I mean?

Right. Social media and the internet is built to undermine that whole dynamic. Yeah, it's a good point. You know? What does it highlight, right? You get straight on your phone after a game and it's like, what's the conversation? It's not, man, did you see how many like sacrificial cuts

Clay Thompson made tonight? Yeah. That was beautiful. No, that's not, you know, it's who had how many threes. Well, and also if anything goes wrong on the court or somebody has one quote in the locker room, you had those mid-2000s Suns teams. Marion was a little enigmatic from time to time. Amari was definitely a character.

You put those guys in the social media era, and i think some of it could have gone sideways so that's that that's i think what we're seeing between that generation and this generation is how much does the gender how much does the technology and the and our the way of living nowadays inform the player's transition right like so what if sean been a slightly different you know person or behave slightly different if he knew everything he said was going to be out there you know what i mean like for example like so i think you know guys had a little more leeway to be themselves a little more right whereas now it's like i better be pretty tight with what i say well sean now that we understand basketball better and especially we have stats that kind

of capture the stuff he was doing i actually think he would have been like Iguodala on steroids with how he was discussed. All the stats were favorable for him. Yeah. I mean, he's kind of like, you know, I don't know, they're so different, but like the things that Draymond does and the things that Andre do, you know, Sean in a different way did all those things, you know, maybe he couldn't do what Andre could do with the ball. I think that's the one thing that Sean, Sean was so brilliant at so many things, but you couldn't like give him the ball in the fourth quarter and be like, make a play for us, right? That wasn't his skill set.

His skill set was to like run the floor, cut hard, get a rebound. Defend. And then defend a bunch of people. And, you know, I mean, he just did. Well, now he's the guy, that's who everyone's looking for in 2019. Right. How do we find a guy who can be on the perimeter and defend three positions and be a good athlete

and not care too much about his shots? Because largely now too, he can, you know, now that fives are fours basically. Yeah. I mean, he can guard everyone on the court. So it's like invaluable to have that guy, right? They can bounce around from different players. And by the way,

it wasn't even that hard for him to guard most guys. You know what I mean? Like he didn't have to expend that much energy because he was so talented and so athletic and just had this amazing skill, tools for defense, right? So he did so many things so well that he does make a real interesting argument because at the same time, you couldn't like go to him when the game really, he might make a big play, but it wasn't like, we're going to go to him when the game really he might make a big play but it wasn't like we're gonna go to him now that wasn't his game right but how many times per season did he start to get a little salty about i'm not scoring enough points yeah my buddy told me well

i think my buddy wondered why i don't shoot more of course all that shit or why am i not getting the the accolades or you know i mean or the respect I deserve? And that's fair. Like, so I, that's a tough one for Sean, because like I said, like he could do so many things at such a brilliant level, but the one thing he, he, he didn't really do having the ball in his hand and make plays for his team. Like, like when it really mattered is kind of where everyone is what every team needs at the end of the day. Right. And so that was also that specific point of NBA was that post Jordan hero ball. All right. Gilbert Arenas, Kobe, who's, who's going to take the last shot. Yep. And it never fit in. Right. And so I think, you know, in his mind, he's like,

why, why do I have to be that I'm doing all these other things. Why do I have to do that one thing when I'm doing 15 other things? You know what I mean? I think that probably drove him crazy. And at times, you know, probably made him a little sensitive to the recognition he got. Um, you know, I I'm in the MVP conversation for four or five years or whatever it is. And, and he's not, it's like, you know, I think that probably was, was tough for him to manage. Like, you know, he goes home and everyone's like, dude i think that probably was was tough for him to manage like you know he goes home and everyone's like dude you had what you had 25 you had 13 and 13 whatever six blocks and no one really mentions you after the game so i don't that's not really fair i mean he was a

brilliant player and everyone gave him a lot of love but it wasn't quite enough maybe some this generation he would in 2019 i think he would get the right amount of love. He's going to be an interesting Hall of Fame case. Yeah. Him and Stoudemire that you played with, I think both of those guys will eventually get in. I think so, and I hope so. Because he also has this whole kind of end of the career 2011 Mavericks. Yeah, for sure.

Side of things where they win the title. For sure. And he's guarding LeBron. So I think he makes it. Yeah. And he had some unbelievable seasons. So then let me throw a name out there. And I haven't really studied this, but it made me think at the induction, Boris Dio. Whether he gets in? I mean, Dino Roger get in. So what was his criteria? I didn't understand that one. I didn't, I mean, I know, I don't know what his whole, but I'm assuming it was the fact that he had a,

a decent stint in the NBA, but had a brilliant year in Europe. Yeah. Yeah. So Boris, when you consider both was outstanding contributor on a championship team, although not the top three guy, but he was great in those series,

two years. Kind of X factor in that. Guarding multiple people. Like he was a go-to guy at times like we need to play like boris is handling the ball or getting into the post um so incredibly valuable and he's like i think he's won he's won junior and senior european championships for france um so it's like you know i mean there's a lot of like so you're saying you might have played with like seven hall of famers iers. I think I got the strangest family tree of Hall of Famers, including coaches, front office.

It made me think because he was there. He won an award for his philanthropy. And I just thought, why not? There's an interesting Durker Hakeem, who's the best foreign player of all time conversation. I still go with Hakeem because I think for two years he was indisputably the best guy when Jordan was out um yeah I'm not positive Dirk was ever indisputably the best guy at any point in the league in the league I don't

think even when he won the MVP it was there was just a lot of guys that were right where he was whereas Hakeem was like after 94-95 we, we're like, that's the best guy. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, like, these are things that we can debate, but until you like really dig under and see, like go back and see what was happening. But man, Hakeem was unbelievable.

The all foreign team's a nice team. You're on that team. Thanks. I consider you a foreigner. Yeah. Canadian. I don't have a passport, so, you know, it'd be hard to be on the US foreigner? Yeah. Canadian? I don't have a passport, so it'd be hard to be on the U.S. team. Yeah, Maynard was another one.

Maynard's got to be the sixth man. Maynard's unbelievable. What a competitor. Giannis is on there because he's an alien. He is crazy. Yeah. If you found out Giannis was an alien, would you be shocked? No, honestly, would you be shocked?

I'd be surprised, but I'd still debate it. Like, yeah, maybe. Really? I kind of see like that could be possible. Let's take one more break to talk about our friends at FanDuel football season underway. I know you have some regrets about your fantasy teams, probably. Guess who doesn't have any regrets?

Me. I'm 2-0 in both leagues. But you know what? That doesn't stop any regrets? Me. I'm 2-0 in both leagues, but you know what? That doesn't stop me from playing Daily Fantasy. I love Daily Fantasy because you get bored with your team after a while. You may not be doing that well. You're the same guys every week. Daily Fantasy, it's like a fresh new team every week. You can research, build your team, figure out the salaries, add them up. There's math involved. FanDuel has something for everything, more ways to win than ever before. The Gridiron, pick them contest every week, free contest. Pick winners, no spreads, 10K, split them on the top pickers. I'm still alive.

I've had the Rams and the Chargers so far. I'm still alive, still doing well. Also, you can play the single entry contest, which is my favorite way to play daily fantasy. You don't have to worry about people creating some computer and putting in 50 teams. You're just playing against one person, one team. Maybe it's a hundred people. Maybe it's 200 people. This week's spike contest is only $5 to enter with 100K prize pool. First place is 10K. Join this week's spike contest. Play against me at fanduel.com slash BS. Guess what?

New users get a $20 bonus when they make their first deposit on FanDuel. Once again, come play with me. FanDuel.com slash BS. Now here's something you can't do with me. Shave. I shaved my beard a couple of weeks ago. It was something that I dreaded because I thought my face was going to be ravaged. I forgot how good the Gillette Mach 3 was. Handled it with ease and precision, no cuts or bumps, perfectly smooth finish.

Here's the thing. And by the way, I haven't shaved in like two weeks. So the Gillette Mach 3 and I are going to be going at it again pretty soon. I'm not worried. It's not going to defeat me. My face is ready for it because it's that good. Get your Gillette favorites like the Mach 3 delivered straight to your door with Gillette On Demand, an online-only service that lets you subscribe or order new blades as needed. So you don't have to run to the pharmacy because you ran out of razors, or when you're at the pharmacy, you meant to buy razors, you forgot. Just do it online. Subscribe to Gillette On Demand today. Get $5 off your first order with special offer. Simmons 5, like the number 5 at checkout. Simmons 5, number 5.

Enjoy free shipping, every fourth order, free with subscription. Visit Gillette online at gilletteondemand.com to get started. Let's go back to Steve Nash. Oh, I got to ask you about Mbappe. What about him? Because you're doing the soccer stuff now.

You're like a soccer talking head guy. Yeah, I'm now doing Champions League for Bleacher Report on TNT. So what is Mbappe's NBA comparison? Well. Is this like 2004 LeBron-ish? You know, for me, like I think I look at him and I think I compare him to like, he's following in the path of like Thierry Henry. So who is that type of player?

Is he going to be the best player in the world someday? He could be. I wouldn't necessarily put that on him. I think he's going to be one of the most electric and best players in the world for a long time. Is he going to be the best player in the world? I don't know that I'd go there yet. I know he got a lot of ill will this summer.

I still think Neymar is probably a better all-around player at this stage. Just older, more polished. He's in his prime. But my point is, isn't Mbappe going to get there? I think so. I hope so. We've got to see him do it. There's guys ahead of him right now that he's literally got to leapfrog, I think, to be there.

But man, what an electric. But if he's 19, you figure, what is he six years from now if he stays healthy? Yeah, I mean, if he continues to play at the Radios, I think the the other thing is unless PSG starts winning Champions Leagues he's probably got to go to like you know Madrid or somewhere like that or Barcelona and like prove it at one of the biggest clubs under the biggest spotlight you know I think in that league

and I hate to knock it but the truth is it's not a top top league so like the numbers are a bit skewed but like his growth already at his age like one he did it in the world cup and in the final he also like just seeing some of his goals this season have been like his touch like a long ball getting in behind the defense and he's taking it out of the air in stride and finish I mean if that with that athleticism and that ability like

he could score you know so many goals in his career. And I think he does have a little bit of a playmaker in him too. You know, like he can beat people and make an assist. Does he have the resilience, Jay? I mean, I wouldn't, I would bet, I think he's a quiet, I mean, like in a sense, like he keeps his head down and plays. Like I know he's a kid on social media, he has video games and all that stuff, but I don't see him as a kid that's like,

I have to be with an entertainer at the club tonight. You know, I see him as a kid who loves to play football. And so I see him as extremely gifted and resilient and think he could be the best player in the world. I just think it's early to be like, there's so many good players still playing that I got to see him do it. I got to see him do it for a number of years.

When your boy Luca was making his World Cup run, were you out of your mind? Is he still your guy? Yeah. I mean, he played at Spurs. I got to ask you, are you still a Tottenham fan or did you ditch that? No, I ditched it.

Why? What happened? You know what it was? My kids got older and I was missing soccer on the weekends doing parent stuff. So now I'm just just i actually got really into barcelona the last few years just because my daughter's team plays the same style offense so i actually understand what they're doing sure but i wouldn't say when i watch them i just i

enjoy watching them i wouldn't be beautiful i wouldn't buy a barcelona hat yeah i just get what they're doing yeah it's beautiful i mean it's it's and i really do like suarez or as my daughter calls him the chipmunk but the way he plays target because she's a target she watches like some of the stuff he does and tries to figure it out no I mean he's amazing but again resilience

I mean that guy fights for every inch he's got amazing ability and still literally wants to scrap you for every blade of grass and that's why he's, who do you have in Messi versus Ronaldo? I've never asked you this. I'm a Messi guy. Yeah. You know, for me, Messi's the best player to ever play the game. You know, I just look at- Give me three reasons why. One, the modern era. Like, I don't know. I hate comparing eras. It's impossible. But like,

you know, when Maradona played as great as he was, like, you know, he, he had his ups and downs at times. He had some big highs taking his team to a world cup in Mexico. Um, had some unbelievable years at Napoli, but he also had a lot of injuries at Barcelona and different stops. And I love Maradona. Don't get me wrong, but you know, guys were smoking at halftime. Yeah. Those eras. And the game was different. Like nowadays, and like nowadays Messi plays against 11 track stars everyone on the field more or less every week is blazing fast fit you know like a little machine in their own right and he competes against those type of players in this era so that's one reason I elevate him a little bit you know other people can disagree.

The other thing is in comparison to Ronaldo, who's unbelievable, the numbers he puts up is unbelievable, but you know, Ronaldo and I, and this is a little bit like Jordan changing his game and getting so good in the mid posts. Ronaldo went from a guy that would beat people off the dribble with his pace and, you know, it was more of a winger, but he became more of a number nine that in a sense, he just became a brilliant finisher and poacher and like hungry and getting on the end of everything. Whereas when you play against, which is a huge, huge asset, obviously, and his numbers there, you play against a messy team, like he puts so much pressure on your team. Like there's always got to be two,

three, four guys leaning to his side of the field, you know? Because if he ever gets it when you're stretched, it's a chance, you know what I mean? And better for better, for worse, he's probably going to score an assist on a couple of you are too open. So like, think about the space he offers up his teammates. You know, one example I think that's hurt him is, is, is the world cups. You know, he hasn't done, done as well. It's not fair. And here's my point is also, it's like he took a pretty, I would say average Argentina team in, in Brazil, 2014 to the final.

Yeah. And I, and they had the better chances in Germany on the day. His teammates missed them, but he, his, just his presence on the field afforded them the space to get these opportunities that they could have won a World Cup with that team, you know,

against a Germany team that beat brazil like eight one one guy shouldn't matter that much to a world cup team i agree it's not basketball where you can steal a title with one guy in this era even even more it's even more difficult for one guy um my case for messy i agree with you i think it's messy i don't even know really what position he is when i watch the games it's like they don't even the announcers don't really know they what position he is when I watch the games it's like they don't even the announcers don't really know they're like Messi's kind of over he's gonna be here in the middle somewhere it's like yeah he's not really a midfielder he's not I don't know what he is yeah he's kind of like he just freelances his own thing he's he kind of I think started as like a

withdrawn striker like guy that played wide kind of like Neymar does yeah Mbappe a little bit when they start out a little bit wider and he cuts inside and becomes a playmaker, you know, I think to find space. But I think as he's getting a little bit older now, he's starting to gravitate a little bit more to like a classic number 10, where he tries to get between the lines, between the defense and the midfield and find spaces and pockets in there. I mean, the guy is the best passer in the world and he's as good a goal scorer as anyone in the world. I mean, that's crazy. I think when you invent your own position,

something magical is going on. It's like in the NBA when they have to change rules for guys. Yeah, yeah. Like with Shaq, they just basically officiate him differently to make it work. Totally. I mean, LeBron puts refs in that position too. 100%.

And Messi, for me, i just i mean he he does so he'd be your number one choice to play with if you could have played with anybody i mean i'd be caught watching yeah he's just so i would say the thing with ronaldo other than the you know obviously his shot skills shot making skills all that shit but we when my daughter and I watch him, he's so hungry to score. Like a lot of his goals will come off like those stupid chaotic kind of situations where a ball get deflected

and everybody will be waiting a second to see what happens, but he's already moving. Like he'd already anticipated the weirdest thing that could happen and he's there. I take that as like that's not a that is not a slight of ronaldo that's actually a major i give him oh it's a trait his hunger his desire you know like i that's the one thing that i admire so much about him in a sense is his ego is so big and he and he backs it up with work he works he's the you know he's his body his mentality

is unbelievable now what i don't like is when he fluffs He's the, you know, he's his body, his mentality is unbelievable. Now, what I don't like is when he fluffs a chance and his teammates scores and he's behind the goal, like kicking the goalposts and spazzing out. Like that's just not my type. He's not my cup of tea because of that. You know, I like a guy that's going to support his, his, I miss my teammate puts it in. I'm going to jump on his back and hug him. Right. So that's kind of like where I lose a little bit in that, but that's like, that's not really, you know, it's like Kobe Bryant that people say, okay, he's not, maybe not a great teammate. You can't have it both ways. You get Kobe Bryant, you get some baggage. Okay.

That's everyone who's ever played. Kobe's an expert on leadership now though. Well, it's a lot of leadership tweets. We've been learning a lot about his leadership ideas. Well, he's a storyteller. Yeah. Renato, his leadership ideas. Well, he's a storyteller. Yeah, you know. Yeah, Renato, his ability to anticipate

the strangest possible thing that could happen, I don't even know how you teach that. But I always say to my daughter, we always call it Rufus goals. My old dog Rufus, who's dead. Golden retriever. He would be in the kitchen

kind of waiting for food to drop or for like you to put your burger on the counter, but then like, oh, the phone's ringing. I'll leave my burger there. Opportunity. And he would just pounce. And ever since she was little, I was like, Rufus goals. You just gotta, if somebody's making a run down the right, you gotta run down the middle. You never know. In soccer, they call either a poacher or a predator. Poacher.

And it's just, it's an innate thing. Suarez has some of that. Suarez is, he loves it. You know, it's, and it's takes so much hunger, you know,

and drive because like, sometimes you're like, it's, this one's not going to go there, but it's the one time you don't go, it goes right there and you could have had it. So it's the guys

that are continually pushing and getting themselves in the right position. That's the hardest thing to teach a kid. It's instincts and desire. It can't be seven out of 10 times. It's every time you've got getting themselves in the right position. That's the hardest thing to teach a kid. It's instincts and desire. It can't be seven out of 10 times. It's every time you've got to be in the right spot.

And it's not all hunger. It's desire and hunger, but it's also there's instincts involved. You know, we're like, you know, just the body shape and angles and positioning, where the defensive line is, where his head's turned, where the ball could go and saying, I'm going to make my bet right here. And, you know, those guys who have that instinct and that ability to calculate those things. You know who's great at that?

Abby. Well, she's retired now, but I always thought she was able to use her size and situational ability. The headers thing was just not an accident after a while. She was always able to figure out how to make the perfect cut and whatever. The guy in the galaxy is like that. Zlatan. Did you see his goal this weekend?

The roundhouse? Unbelievable. What is that? It's like Bruce Lee, but he's 6'5". I have. I've been going to LAFC games this year. Bad MLS soccer is bad. That's the one kind of unrecoverable thing about the league right now. Because the guys all know how to do the same moves when I'm watching Barcelona versus PSG. But they won't actually convert the plays. It's like everything's there except the actual ability to. But the good version of those games are real. I love going to LFC games.

And the energy is there. The crowd really wants it. The crowd's emulating a European soccer crowd, basically. Well, LAFC has done a lot of things right. They have. Really well. Good buddy of mine and neighbor. He played for the Whitecaps.

John Thornton's the general manager. And just watching him take that position and then their team build this whole thing out from the supporters club. How do you build a fan base from scratch that are there from day one? How do you build traditions? They have like an eagle.

It's unbelievable. And they nailed it. It wasn't like, oh God. Are they fans holding scarves? Like they've been fans since 1920? Yeah, but it's not, they didn't, they didn't, it's not like there's, oh yeah, there's this Barney-like. They nailed it.

Like the way, the image, the, these, these, these. How about the 3252 behind one of the goals? Those people that are statement the whole time. They did a great job. They've done an unbelievable job. But you're right. The MLS, I mean, at its best, there's some good football, you know, for sure. You know, but of course, like if, if, you know, like there's, it's a free market.

If it was better, it'd be the players would be playing in a bigger league. So I think. Does that ever happen though? The key is it's a baby. It's a baby. Like it's 20 years old, 22 years old, whatever it is. And so it's growing. And think about where I was like, think about the amount of soccer you see on a daily basis now compared to 90 mid nineties.

Like you would never see a soccer score on the ticker in the nineties right now. You see it on almost every league is on ESPN ticker or whatever ticker, like just in the, the fact that you can pretty much see every top team in the world play every game of the year here is something I, you know, like that proves how much the game's grown. And I think it's going to continue to grow. And there's just got to be a convergence at some point of American players developing the American league, attracting, recruiting and developing players at the same time that the level raises. And, but if you look at the trend and the, and the trajectory, it's getting there. It's just not going to happen overnight. Well, if you're going to these youth

soccer games, like I am on the weekends, you'll understand why it's not going to happen here for a long time. Yeah. That's a, that's a whole pod. It's, it's, it's a hundred percent like these coaches trying to do what they can to win whatever tournament it is. And it's that kickball, like play it out, play to the one fast person. And it's that kickball, like play it out, play to the one fast person. And that's why we suck in the world cup. And it's pay to play. Yeah.

You know, there's too many like kids that are hungry and athletic that are never exposed to the game because they can't afford it. Or maybe you're exposed and get out because an obstacle gets in their way. You know, those kids are gobbled up by academies in the rest of the world, right?

So I think right now the model that's proving the most success for Americans are 18-year-olds going, you know, usually to Germany at this stage at 18. So they get 18, 19, 20, you know, 21. Did you read about the 12-year-old girl who did this? She's got a PSG. I think so, yeah. So she's played pickup. I came from my pickup game she's

played with us a couple times because one of our friends former mls players or agent yeah i was advising the family i shouldn't say that advisor i just ruined him but uh and so she's great i mean she holds her own with us i think that you're still playing pickup yeah so the back is still solid for soccer i can't honestly the strangest thing is i can't play basketball like it's just that track you know why because your head has to be up a lot of the time i think just the miles on my spine my you know where i've had front nerve issues those movements like and it seems like soccer and tennis and things that I'm playing, but it's just different. And then the other thing is I'm not playing at a pro level.

So like just the speed of acceleration, decelerations, isn't like trying to chase an NBA guy. So my back bothers me every day, but once I get warm, I feel great. I feel really, really lucky because I'd be miserable if I couldn't move. Soccer, huh? What position? Midfield? Yeah. Just doing, huh? What position? Midfield? Yeah.

Just doing a Luka impersonation? Yeah. Basically, I just try everything I possibly can to be like him. That was so much fun. Croatia, what a story. What a team. Rakitic and Modric. They had some bad luck in the first half of the finals, too.

They were really unlucky. They were really unlucky. And the thing about Croatia that was amazing, I'm an England fan. My family's all from England. My parents are English. My mom's Welsh, but grew up in London. Nice run, by the way.

It was a good run. You know, I was like, we're in a good position here. Croatia's played like three extra time games in a row. Like they're going to be fried. And it was England that wilted. Croatia just kept going. It was the cigarettes at halftime. That might've hurt them a little bit.

Definitely. The beers. They shouldn't have beer at halftime. That might have hurt them a little bit. Definitely. The beers. They shouldn't have beer at halftime. Cigarette. Onion rings. And here they are in the final. So how many people? Four or five million?

I don't know. Croatia? That's insane. It was like I know nothing until I started watching this stuff. And early on in the tournament, I was like, I like the way these guys play. There are teams that jump out and you're like, oh, these guys, all right.

I see what they're doing. Yeah, there was a definite intent to the way they played. I mean, those two midfielders are Rakitic, who plays for Barcelona, and Modric, obviously, was a player of the tournament thereabouts. And I think he got player of the tournament, didn't he? Yeah, he did. But they were brilliant.

I gravitate toward possession and midfielders. Sure. And keep the ball. Take pressure off your team. Create opportunities. I just think that's the way to go. Agreed. And that's where England struggled.

We didn't really have that kind of link player between the holding midfielders and the front kind of. We played with a strange kind of mix of like four, Harry Kane and then three withdrawn strikers. We didn't have that kind of guy playmaker in the middle. And whereas Croatia, man, you got athletes like Perisic and they had great wingbacks and he had obviously, what's his name next, Rakitic next to him and their defenders were great. So the goalkeeper was outstanding. I mean, honestly, it's just cool to see a small country like that

who has a great passion and soccer tradition get all the way to the final. It's just heartbroken for them a little bit that it wasn't like this Cinderella story. It was kind of a win for England.

It was a win for England. It was like a moral victory. You know, the thing with England is like it used to be like we're going to win it and they had no business saying that. And now everyone's like, we're not going to win it.

Let's try to enjoy this. And it was enjoyable. And having said that they're going in the right direction. Like they're developing more players. They won at like the under 17s, under 20s, they won every, the world cup. So they're getting better. You know, but it's, it's tough. Like the English league is such a great league, but it's foreign driven. There's so many every, cause they have so much money and they can just bring in the best players. The academy kids, some of the top academy kids in England are going to Germany.

What would happen if the MLS, if they just 10 times the salary and just try to compete with like the lower level Premier League teams? I mean, it could help in one respect, but it's also risky. You know, that's a lot of money that if your systems aren't tried and true

and like you're not doing best, best, best practices and you're going to invest that money, like it better come true or else there's going to be a lot of money that if your systems aren't tried and true and like you're not doing best best best practices you're gonna invest that money like it better come true or else there's gonna be a lot of people saying no more money's going in this right and the whole thing can implode a little bit like for different reasons the nasl imploded way back when they expanded for those expansion fees and to try to grow this isn't that kind of what the mls is doing though i think they've over expanded uh that's's debatable, but my point is that- Why does New England have a team? Just move them somewhere else. But look at whether it's taken them

20, 22 years to expand to where they are now, right? So that slow drip, I think has been calculated and you could argue maybe on a case by case basis. I would rather, I would go 16 teams,

pick the best possible cities. Now we're talking, what, 22, 23 players per team, really like three stars. And you could open it up. So what do you think about this? MLS and Mexico's top division joining and having relegation promotion. That's what should happen.

But Mexico's division's better than the MLS. That's like AAA. I would say MLS is high AA. Well, and it is. Mexico's like AAA. I would say MLS is high AA. Well, and it is. Mexico develops more players, I would say, in general. One, it's a much older league. They have a lot more history and experience. But that's where this should go.

I don't understand why that hasn't happened yet. Yeah. Well, I think you've got to do it carefully when you've got all the owners trying to figure out how. You buy a franchise, and then they tell you, oh, by the way, you're going to be in the second division. There's going to be, I think it's got to, there's going to be a sales process, right? Where you get all these owners on board to realize then you'll become a global league, right? And the TV revenue will be a lot higher. Therefore you can pay to have better players. Cause you know, there's Mexican teams. Tell your boys at Turner to just make it happen. Make it happen. Just throw some, make it rain. Throw some money

everybody's way. Yeah. Here, I got an idea. I'm walking my second week on the job. You guys have $12 billion? So what's your job? How often are you going to be on? So I'm basically on every Champions League day. So we're on Tuesday, Wednesdays, you know, typically like four days a month. So it's just, the Champions League is unbelievable.

Like we start off tomorrow. I love the Champions League. Obviously, I don't know when this is going to air, but Tuesday we got Tottenham Inter, which is huge being a massive Spurs fan. My whole family's from Tottenham. I think we have PSG Liverpool on Wednesday, let alone other great games. But those are the games that we're going to air and show. So, I mean, it's just so exciting to be able to talk. That's what I do.

Like I love hoops. Hoops is a big part of my life, but like what I do at home with my friends is watch 10 million hours of soccer and talk shit about it all day long. So now I get to do that. And that's- I remember when I got to know you in like, oh wait, I was stunned by how much soccer you watched. I guess I never thought that basketball players would have other sports they cared about, like as a fan. Well, I mean, for me, soccer was first. My first word was goal. My dad played in the first division in South Africa, played in the conference in England. My brother played for Canada 35 times.

So I grew up in a soccer household. So it was like basketball kind of interrupted that in a sense. And I went to the eighth grade. All my friends played basketball. I started playing basketball. But then as I got older, I just never lost that fandom. And we got so much more access like in this century to the you know, this century to the game that it was like, I couldn't help but be swept right back in.

Do you want me to give you some talking head tips before we go? I want to hear this, you know, like I, I need reps. So if you can like get me to maybe. It's always good to have one thing like just totally over the top. Okay. That's at least defensible. So what are the games on Tuesday? I mean, is that a hot take or is that?

No, no, I'll help. What are the games on Tuesday I mean is that a hot take or is that no no I'll help what are the games on Tuesday Tottenham Inter I gotta have to go look at the schedule because I get Tuesdays and Wednesdays mixed up when we're going through all the packages and stuff but that's the big one you gotta disqualify it so you can say stuff like you could make the case this is the biggest Champions

League in Tottenham history okay you're not really saying that it is. You're just throwing it out there. But you're not saying it. And why? I'm just saying that's how to be a talking head. I like it.

Because you know what? Like, I'm not so sure Mbappe can't be the best player ever. But you didn't say it. Oh, I see what you're saying. So you're saying. You're disqualifying it as you're saying it, but you're throwing it out there. You're saying this is what all these guys on TV have figured out. Yes. Okay. I got what you're saying. So you're saying- You're disqualifying it as you're saying it, but you're throwing it out there. You're saying this is what all these guys on TV

have figured out. Yes. Okay. I got it. All right. So that's exactly what I don't want to do. And I think what I'm- I knew you weren't going to do that.

And I think that's exactly what- I was just telling you how to succeed as a talking head. No, you're right. And I think- I'm not saying it's a good thing. Yeah, it's not me. I would say stick to the Steve Nash formula.

Yeah, whatever that is, I'm still trying to figure it out. But Bleacher though has been awesome in this in that they want to the Steve Nash formula. Yeah, whatever that is. I'm still trying to figure it out. But Bleacher, though, has been awesome in this in that they want to do a different format. Like Fox and ESPN do a good job. They kind of recreate like that BBC type, you know, that traditional soccer coverage, which is great. They're like, you know what?

We're going to take a risk here. Let's try it. That's why I'm there, right? They want to bring someone in who has a passion for the game and credibility in another American sport. They want to try to grow it and expand it and tell new stories and get them out to more kids that maybe, you know, are on the fence with the sport. And I think that's, take some guts, but that excited me. Can you take lots of shots at U.S. youth soccer as you're doing this? We can take enough. Hopefully we can help though. Like really,

I want, we want to help make it. I mean, I genuinely love the game so much. I want to see the U.S. succeed. As the game grows in this country, it's better for everyone. And, you know, we have a World Cup coming here. And, you know, it's going to be, you know, a big, a long project. Like, you see there's those problems with youth soccer in this country. But I think it's going to get there.

It's just a matter of, like, when are we going to get out of our own way. By the way, you know who should have the World Cup every four years? The U.S. It should just be here. Yeah. Especially when they finish this L.A. football stadium. L.A. alone could have the World Cup. How about every 12 years?

I mean, it'd be great to have it in around the world one, but like- But if we're getting to the point where it's like in Russia and Dubai, like that's crazy. But England, France, Italy, Spain, English should have it. Those countries should be able to have it.

Like Germany, like I don't want to cut out the minnows, but like those countries that have like, you know, they have a big population, big infrastructure, like kind of like the Olympics coming back to LA. It just makes so much sense on so many levels. You know, same with Rio. That was

fantastic. You know, I don't know about the infrastructure, but it'd be unbelievable to have a World Cup in Buenos Aires or Argentina one day. So I get what you're saying and I agree with you in part, but I think, you know, it would, it would help the game a lot here and it would help the game globally. But I do think you got to, some of the beauty of it is seeing different, different cultures. I'm with you. It doesn't seem like anybody wants to have it though. That's another issue. I mean, definitely nobody wants to have the Olympics anymore.

So the Olympics might end up being in LA every year, right? That might happen. They certainly have enough stadiums at this point. Well, I'm psyched you're doing this. Thanks. Yeah. Don't be afraid to shoot the shit about the NBA every once in a while, though. That's true.

Although I guess now you have like a slight conflict of interest, but not too bad. I haven't thought about it that much because it's never just been on my radar. I don't know. It's just the weirdest things. I love, obviously we talked hoops for forever today. I love the game. I don't watch, I've watched the Warriors and I watch bits and bobs, you know, of, of, of to stay up because I love this generation of players, but I, I definitely, uh, I just never really wanted to like go all in on talking about the game every day.

All right. Good luck with this. Thanks. So Champions League goes on basically through April. Yeah. Uh, May the finals in Madrid end of May. Um, so basically it's Tuesdays and Wednesdays this year. They actually, it used to be like, there'd be one window, one game televised. Now The finals in Madrid, end of May. So basically it's Tuesdays and Wednesdays. This year, it used to be like there'd be one window, one game televised. Now there's two back-to-back. So a few more games to be seen. I didn't like the head-to-head.

I like just watch one game and then the next game. Watch another one. Good luck. Congrats on the Hall of Fame. Thank you. Appreciate it. Good to see you. All right.

Thanks so much to ZipRecruiter. Don't forget to check out ZipRecruiter.com slash BS. Thanks to Gillette. The Gillette Mach 3 handles whatever your face needs with ease and precision. No cuts, no bumps. A perfectly smooth finish. See for yourself. Get it delivered straight to your door with Gillette On Demand, an online-only service that lets you subscribe or order new blades as needed. Gillette On Demand, go there today, subscribe, get $5 off your first order. We're special offer, Simmons 5, like the number 5 at checkout. Enjoy free shipping, every fourth order free with subscription. Why wouldn't you do that?

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That is fanduel.com slash BS. Ryan Rosillo, dual thread. If you want to hear me talk about quarterbacks with Ryan and Kevin Clark and Robert Mays, you can go there. Rewatchables on Thursday. Subscribe because we have a little movie called

True Romance, 25th anniversary. One of the all-time rewatchable action thriller classics. All-time. Can't wait to talk about it. Me, Sean Fennessey, Chris Ryan. That's coming on Thursday. Check it out. Back with the BS later this week. Haven't decided if we're going to Friday roll with House. You know why? Because his picks suck. I don't know if he deserves to come back. Might just replace House. House is like Tyrod Taylor. You obviously can't win with House.

You can survive. Get a podcast out of him. You're not getting winning picks from House. You just, you bat in 500 or worse. So I don't know. I haven't decided if House is invited, but I'm Friday rolling anyway. And we have some more guests too for that.

So stay tuned. Talk to you soon. I feel it's within. On the wayside. I'm a person never lost. And I don't have to ever.