The Bill Simmons Podcast - NBA Panic Teams, Mega-Trades, and Next Summer Rumors With Brian Windhorst | The Bill Simmons Podcast (Ep. 434)

Episode Date: October 26, 2018

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by ESPN's Brian Windhorst to discuss NBA teams hitting the panic button, L.A. as the new NBA hub, next year's free agents, Trade Machine fantasies, and more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the BS Podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network, brought to you as always by ZipRecruiter. You know what's not smart? Having the World Series in the last week of October when it's freezing cold out. They got to fix that. Just go to 150-game season. It's fine. You know what else isn't smart?

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The Big Picture, hosted by Sean Fennessey. We spun his podcast off from Channel 33. I went on there. Actually, you could go today after you listen to this fantastic podcast with Brian Winhorst. I went on there. Actually could go today after you listened to this fantastic podcast with Brian Windhorst. I went on there. We counted down our top five horror movies that are streaming right now that weren't ranked by quality, more like just, hey, you might not have seen this one. You should check this out. So whatever the word or adjective for that expression slash emotion is,

that's what we did. I picked two from the 1970s that I think still hold up, and then a bunch of other modern ones. Sean did his five. You can hear all of it. This is a scary, scary week, not just because it's the best sports weekend of the year, but also Halloween coming up.

You can kind of feel the goblins out there. Coming up, Brian Windhorst, old friend, old teammate from ESPN. We're going to talk all kinds of NBA. And I am not doing NFL picks this week. I am bringing back the NFL picks on Friday. I got to be honest, the baseball and the basketball has just overwhelmed me, and I don't really care about football right now. And I'm not going to just mail in three picks and put two minutes of thought into them. Next week, I will care. Right now, I care about the World Series, and I care about basketball, and I care about you, the listener. Those are three things I care about. But first, Pearl Jam. All right, on the line, my old ESPN teammate,

Brian Windhorst. It is good to talk to you. As always, you have been prolific as ever. There's a lot going on. You've only been in the NBA season now for 10 days. It feels like 45 different things have happened. What are you the most fascinated by right now? The league is in such a great place night to night.

Overall, I think we know who's going to be holding the trophy at the end. The spring may not bring the same drama that we'd love to have, but the NBA has never been better in my 16 years of covering it night to night. One night you have Blake going

for 50. Next night, Steph goes for 51. Next night you have the Lance for 50. Next night, Steph goes for 51. Next night you have the Lance show in L.A. Who knows what's going to happen tonight? I'm just really happy about the day-to-day of the league right now. And we also have a few teams that are going to the Obleep button because they realize that they've got some issues and and it is this early but even by that um i sense a little bit i sent some disturbances and some in some front offices already so i flew back from boston yesterday i was on jet blue and i put on nba tv

and they showed three replays of different games, pieces of which I'd already seen. And it was so goddamn entertaining. They showed the Lakers-Spurs game, which I'd already watched, but I enjoyed the hell out of. They showed the Wizards-Warriors game. And then they showed the Blake Griffin 50-point game. And it was like, these would be like the three best games of the month in 2004. So I'm with you. It does seem like every night. Last night the Lancho was great.

So you talk about the panic button. I feel it too. Usually we don't really feel this until Thanksgiving, but now the season has moved back and Halloween just feels super early. But I'm with you, man. You watch OKC last night against the Celts. I know Westbrook's coming back from injury, but that team just doesn't look like it was constructed correctly.

And I think some of us realized it, but not all of us. So we might as well start there. I don't really understand what they're trying to accomplish with the roster they have. What's your take on it? Well, I mean, if you go back and look when they were successful last year, it was really when they were a dominating defensive team. And they just had enough offense with Paul George and Westbrook. And Roberson, Roberson.

Roberson, Roberson. I think it's Roberson. Roberson, Roberson got hurterson, Roberson, Roberson, Roberson got hurt and they really have not been the same team since. And the poor guy has had three surgeries, three now. Um, and,

uh, it's just, it's fascinating to me that they've, that they've lost their balance. I like Jeremy Grant. Um, but, uh, you know,

like down the stretch last night, the only guy who was making offensive plays for them was Alex Sabrinas. Which was great for the Celtics. Right, you know. And I don't know. I don't know what their ceiling is anyway. So I look at them and I think, you know, what their ceiling is anyway, so I look at them and I think what their move is, they're waiting for Golden State to sort of, they're going to hold Westbrook and George,

that's our two guys, and then they're going to evaluate what they have around them and potentially make moves around them. But it's a little bit worrisome that Westbrook and George aren't able to tilt more games in their direction. You figure if you've got the two best players on the court some nights that you should win some games. And so far it hasn't been happening. Yeah, it's pretty crazy. I would say they're in the top 20. They're two of the top 20 players in the league.

And it's a 30-team league. That should be an advantage. And yet I was looking at the Western standings today. And I think we all feel this way. It's a different kind of West. I think we've had lots of different deep years with the West where it's like, oh, man, the West is so deep. This year, it's almost like more talented than deep. You just go through every team.

You're like, oh, I kind of like that team. Oh, that team's good. And there's going to be two teams that get knocked out of the playoffs, and we're not going to believe it. And for me, it's like, why couldn't it be a team like OKC? Why couldn't they go 45 and 37 and miss the playoffs by three games? I think it's conceivable. And when you get into this slow start like this, now they're 0-4, all of a sudden there's

real urgency because you know you got to get to 48-49 wins, I think, in the West, right? Well, yes. Let me just say this about last night's game real quick. Last year, you were an early adopter for how good Jason Tatum was. Yeah. I respected his game, but then he left me a gawk in the playoffs. Yeah. I just, I mean, I fell in love with his moxie,

and I am now, I now believe that Jason Tatum is, you know how you used to do your... The trade value. Your rating column, your... Yeah. Jason Tatum would be way, way high up there. He's one of the most untouchable players in the league to me. But I don't know if he's a top 20 player yet.

In fact, we just did our NBA rank, which I don't even vote in, but I respect some of the rankings. And the Celtics didn't have a top 20 player. Maybe Kyrie snuck into like 18. And Westbrook and Paul George were like both top 20 so last night you're looking at one team playing at home but two top 20 players granted they're playing against a great team in the east but that that team isn't even playing its best yet um you know that's a game that you've got to win right and uh and they they. They had control over it. And you've got to be able to finish it, too.

And so it's just a little bit worrisome that George and Westbrook aren't more of a monster. You would think that a team with two top 20 players would just be a monster so many nights, and we're just not seeing it. Do you believe in any part of my conspiracy theory that the NBA told Paul George he could not sign with the Lakers. No, because the NBA needs the Lakers to be good,

to, to, to maximize it. Uh, I, I did not, you know, Paul, Paul gave that interview to Mark Spears. It was, I appreciated his honesty. The key sentence he said was had the Pacers not traded me, I would be a Laker. So what does that mean? It's a weird statement. But he's basically saying that I was determined to walk away from the Lakers. He told them. He told Kevin Pritchard, I'm going to the Lakers in a year.

Right. And he basically just verified that. But it's interesting. What if they had traded him somewhere else, he would have liked it. You know? I don't know. But one year from now,

when we see what the Lakers have actually got their hands on, we will know whether or not they didn't make a terrible mistake not trading their young guys for Kawhi. Because they were already burned. They already were burned for not going all in for Paul George.

And if Durant doesn't go there, if Kawhi either stays in Toronto or maybe goes to the Clippers or something, and if Jimmy Butler gets traded somewhere where he resigns and the Lakers are left trying to go for Chris Middleton or something,

will they regret not having learned their lesson about Paul George? I will never understand why he went back to OKC. I read all the stories. They did a nice little press tour. SI wrote one. ESPN wrote one.

And I read all the quotes. I still don't understand why he resigned there. Well, but I don't understand why he didn't take the full five years. If he had just taken the full five... If he'd taken the full five years and said listen um i i broke my leg once i just had knee surgery i've got to protect myself uh you know i'm not going to blame anybody that takes the full five years right uh i'm just not and and so if he had done that i thought okay i get it what what made me scratch my head was that he didn't take the full five, and then he didn't even take the two-year contract,

because he has eight years of service. So if he had taken a two-year contract, he would have been a 10-year free agent two years from now and could have reentered the market when he could have signed for the highest max possible. He takes three years, betrothed himself there, and then he's got an option for a fourth year. And I know that he can potentially extend in three years. That was kind of the point of it. But my thing is, why not just sign for two so that you have flexibility and you can still

get way more money? Just the contract that he took undercut the reasons that he would have for resigning there. I thought, but what do I know? I'm not in his head. Well, that's why you had a conniption on live TV when it happened.

That was great. That was my, that was my favorite TV moment of the summer. Other than every episode of succession, you having a near stroke on television because Paul George did the one contract link that made no sense whatsoever and didn't take any other meetings with anybody, which is the other thing I don't understand. You're going to be a free agent. Why not take some meetings? What's the big deal? Just go visit Philly and the Lakers. Why not?

This is the only time for years you're going to be a free agent. Why do you have to sign on June 30th? Who are you trying to impress? I don't understand any of that. Yeah. I mean, he was trying to impress Russell Westbrook, apparently. Why? He loves Russell.

Yeah, but why does he love Russell Westbrook so much? What's so great about playing with Russell Westbrook? I don't understand it. I don't. Maybe. I mean, maybe he just loves Oklahoma City. I just. Why? Like, Westbrook. When Westbrook signed I don't understand it. I don't, maybe, I mean, maybe just love Oklahoma city. I just, like Westbrook when Westbrook signed, he took the bag,

he took the super max contract where he got the 200 some odd million. Yeah. And it was the large, one of the largest contracts in NBA history. So he was able to say, all right, I'm going to be here, but I'm also going to get guaranteed like a quarter of a billion dollars. Thank you very much, Oklahoma City. I love you. I just thought if you're Paul George, why not take, you know, I think he was approaching $200 million had he taken the five-year deal.

And, you know, if things go sideways and you want to get out of there in three years, you can demand trade just as easily. So, I don't know. It was confusing. And I felt like, you know, I was at the home opener in LA the other night for LeBron and it was you know it was quite the experience everybody was into it even though they lost

and I was like you know this was supposed to be the LeBron and Paul George opener this was supposed to be them together yeah until Adam Silver squashed it yeah Adam Silver told them it couldn't happen I'm all this is my favorite conspiracy theory in a while. He was just like, look, there's tampering everywhere.

The tampering is laughable. You just have to go back. It's beyond laughable. That there was tampering. No, I don't think so. No, the league, at the end of the day, the fact that the league's got growing, like if you look at last year, the NFL rating shr fact that the league's got growing like you look at last year

the nfl rating shrunk the baseball rating shrunk the nba ratings increased in an environment where where there's fewer viewers yeah like graded on a scale the nba rating ratings going up in that year is amazing and they did it with the knicks and the Lakers DOA. Yeah. Their fans checking out. So with the two major media markets not invested and the league still growing like that, it's untapped. And now you have next year, the league is on the verge of something amazing from a market standpoint, something they've been chasing for decades. Let's just say for the sake of argument that Durant goes to the Knicks. You know, how plausible or not that is. We know that the Warriors are going to still be great, and they're in the bay.

Let's say that LeBron gets a second start. Let's just leave it unnamed at that point. And the Lakers rise up, now in Warren's position, the challenge with the Warriors. And the Celtics it unnamed at that point. And the Lakers rise up now in Warren's position to challenge with the Warriors. And the Celtics are still going to be great. The Sixers are still going to be great. You are close to having Boston, New York,

Philadelphia, the Bay Area, Los Angeles, and Houston, which is a big market, all being relevant. If only the Bulls, maybe the Bulls win the lottery and get Zion Williamson. That would be the final piece of the puzzle. But if you could get the league in a place where New York, Boston, LA, and San Francisco were all competing for the same title, it would be Adam Silver's dream.

And so that's why I don't buy any conspiracy theory that that would happen. Well, that's not fun. I will never understand why he didn't seriously consider Philly or the Lakers. And I also don't understand how the Lakers went from absolutely positively convinced they were going to get him to they didn't even get a meeting. It will never make sense to me. His agent was also Julius Randall's agent who left and seemed like with some bad blood and took him to New Orleans. And then when you watch the Lakers now, it's like, you know,

it'd be really good for them. Julius Randall, you know, who to help them. And he's D'Angelo Russell's agent who wasn't exactly treated well with the Lakers. Yeah. That, so that whole, maybe, and maybe that was a big part of it. Maybe he didn't want Paul George to go there because he didn't like the franchise. But I mean, you've dealt with many agents in your time.

I mean, if a player wants to be in LA, the agent's not going to block it. True. The best two situations for him, in my opinion, were Philly and LA. And I actually thought Philly was kind of the home run swing because, especially when you watch them now, to kind of be the third guy with Embiid and Simmons who, it doesn't seem like Paul George wants a lot of the attention. I think that's one of the reasons he likes Westbrook so much. I think he likes being kind of the pippin. But the Philly, I think, had a higher upside. And then playing with LeBron, you know, that brings all of its own stuff, good and bad. Actually, I wanted to ask you about that.

Let's take a quick break, though. Let's talk about Red Dead Redemption 2, Nephew Kyle's favorite game that's been released this year. Rockstar Games creators of the critically acclaimed and record-breaking Grand Theft Auto series that has ruined all of our lives, if you've ever got sucked into one of those games. Oh my God. 2001, my future wife almost broke up with me. I was so into it.

Now they have another latest blockbuster, Red Dead Redemption 2, an epic tale of honor and loyalty set in the dying days of America's outlaw era. Told across the deepest and most expansive rockstar world to date, set in 1899. Kyle.

I know. Did you get it yet? It's a great year. No. I'm getting it this weekend. Yeah. I'll get it this weekend. Get away from that on and off again,

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You can live the life of outlaw. Arthur Morgan and Red Dead Redemption 2 out right now for PlayStation 4 and Xbox One. Buy now at rockstargames.com slash Red Dead Redemption 2. The number two, not the word two. Rated M for mature. Ryan Russillo, who hosts a very good podcast on The Ringer, Dual Threat, he was on Scott Van Pelt's show on Friday and he was talking about a feeling around the league, which he had just heard from different people. And I've heard the

same thing. And I know you're wired in and you've probably heard it too, that the younger generation isn't as enamored or psyched or excited to go join forces with LeBron as maybe the general public thinks. And that the fact that nobody kind of fought their way to go to L.A. with him this summer maybe meant something more than we gave it credit for. What's your take on this whole thing? Well, I think this is a really relevant question. And, um, I asked Kevin Love, I did a story a couple of weeks ago where I asked Kevin Love about it. Now Kevin Love was on the record. He was aware he was on the record. So, um, you know, I don't know how honest he was being, but he basically said that playing alongside LeBron has its downsides

and that he had a lot of dark days that were related to the challenges and the demands of playing with LeBron, but that he played for a championship every year and that that was the most important thing to him and that LeBron will always deliver with his play and that that was worth it. The way I phrased the question to him, it was very straight. I just said, if a star player comes to you next year and says, you know, next summer and says, what is it like to play with LeBron, what are you going to tell him?

You know, do you endorse it or not? And I think basically what he said is, I would absolutely do it because there's downsides, but the upside's outweigh it. And I'm not so sure everybody sees that. And let's just look at the data we have. We have Kyrie Irving demanding a trade away from playing with LeBron. It ended up working out great for him, although he hasn't won anything. He feels great about his chances to win.

I think he's happy. We have Paul George being very aware that it was very likely LeBron was going to go to LA. I guess technically he committed before LeBron did, but it was not a secret in the NBA that LeBron was going to be a Laker by that time. While I don't think LeBron was communicating with Kawhi, I do think Paul George knew what LeBron's general intentions were. But Paul George had a chance to play with LeBron and pass. And it was in some ways a great opportunity for him

because he could have come into L.A. and not had all the pressure of having to deliver. Now, being the second fiddle on LeBron's team has its own pressures, but had he signed with the Lakers by himself and been the sole guy. He would have been expected to carry them in a way that wouldn't have been the same. So I thought it was kind of an ideal situation, but yet he passed as well. And then we have Jimmy Butler sort of giving his list of teams.

They want to be traded to, and the Lakers were not on the list. Now, if he had, if he had a cap expert here, they would tell you, well, because the Lakers, they can't trade almost anybody on their team until December 15th anyway, so whatever. But Jimmy Butler has not expressed, to my knowledge, an interest in being on the Lakers. That's three stars right there. Kawhi.

Who have had opportunities. And Kawhi. Well, I have no idea about Kawhi. I have a very difficult time reading and knowing what's going to happen there. But we didn't hear Kawhi say, make me play with LeBron or Elf either. But I don't know what's going to happen. Kawhi certainly didn't push himself to the Lakers. We'll put it that way.

That seems true. When Marcelo and I were talking about it off the air, and I actually think I might about it off the air, and I actually think I might have talked about this on a podcast too. I can't remember. But I think Kevin Love carries a lot of weight with a certain generation, and I think Kyrie does too. Kevin Love was in that 08 class,

so he was able to touch the 07, 08, and 09 guys and kind of grew up with all those guys playing at AU, all that stuff. And I do think that matters. These guys know each other since they were, you know, 12. Still on team USA. Yeah. And he's a team USA guy too,

but they've known, he's known all of these dudes since he was 12, 13, 14. And then Kyrie, who is a couple of years later is, is a guy who has, is very popular like with his whole age class too, right?

He knows everybody from Durant all the way down. I think if you're a player, if you're doing this for a living, you're either pretty good, really good, or Team USA good, you can't help but notice that Kevin Love had issues the last four years. And it didn't seem like a really happy experience. And he gave up a lot to play with LeBron and got into a situation where it's like, if the Cavs won it, it was LeBron, LeBron did it. If the Cavs lost, it was everyone else's fault. And then Kyrie just ditching the

situation for reasons that as eventually you kind of hear that he just, he just wanted to be on a different team. He didn't want to be in the whole LeBron tornado anymore. I just feel like people, I think Russillo's right. I think people do notice that stuff, and maybe they get a little nervous, you know, about kind of going into that tornado. So I do think there's something to it. Well, there's something else that the Lakers,

so on one hand, I'll say that, and you certainly, you're in the epicenter of it um Los Angeles has never been more popular for NBA players right they're there all summer everybody uh I've said this before but when I started covering the league in the early 2000s players would be in Atlanta in the summer they would would be in, I mean, I remember like Vince Carter and those guys lived in Orlando. Right. You know, Orlando was a popular place for NBA players, you know,

state taxes, et cetera. You know, Miami obviously always has been. This summer, you know, in the summers now, it's, you know, some guys live in New York. I remember like, you know, I remember Steve Nash used to live in New York every summer

and stuff like that. Los Angeles is the capital of the NBA. Everything, even all of free agency now. Free agency used to happen in Las Vegas at Summer League. No. Free agency happens all in Los Angeles now. The entire, everything goes all in Los Angeles. Everything goes down in Los Angeles. And so the Lakers have never had a greater home field advantage.

That said, there's a couple of things that are going against them in this upcoming free agency. Number one, the Knicks have space. And somebody at some point is going to want to go be the hero in New York, and especially with all the demands out west, all the difficulties in that conference, somebody is going to want to take that banner. It's still the business capital of the United States. Secondly, the Clippers are not a laughingstock option anymore. The Clippers are dead serious about winning in free agency. They've got Jerry West there. They've got Ballmer. Their facilities and everything like that are now top of the line. They are not the Lakers. There's no question. I'm never going to compare, but

the Clippers are a real rival in terms of free agency, I believe, now for the Lakers. And then the third thing is, actually, Agent Wojnarowski pointed this out to me, and I have to agree with that. When you look at some of these top free agents, specifically like Durant and also Clay Thompson in there, even though I don't think Clay's going anywhere, and also Kawhi, those guys all have rings already. So, you know, you're not saying, I'm going to go play with, like, this is what Love's

point was. Love's point was, LeBron will get you to the promised land. You know, I know that I played in Minnesota, and I was home every April 15th, and when I played with LeBron, I was in the finals every June 15th. And that's what I want. Some of these guys, they obviously still want to win, but they don't feel like they have to go play with LeBron to win. So the Lakers have advantages that will be there, but they have some things going against

them, and as you just mentioned, LeBron's track record of drawing some of the younger guys hasn't exactly been sterling. I mean, I still would bet on the Lakers getting another star player, but I don't think it's going to be as simple as maybe it may seem to people who are ensconced in the Laker world. Kawhi, also another guy who has a ring already,

doesn't need to chase. That's what I mean. Yeah, right, Kawhi. You another guy who has a ring already, doesn't need to chase. That's what I mean. You talk about last decade and you had KG, Ray Allen, there were a lot of people who really wanted to win a ring. Dirk Nowitzki, Steve Nash,

you're going down the line. Now a lot of the best guys have been taken care of already and I do think that matters. I think that was one of the biggest reasons, you know, Kyrie took some shit for leaving LeBron in Cleveland from people who didn't know any better. But it was a part of his thing was like, I made the most important shot and gave seven of the finals and won a ring. Like now I'm ready to be happy as a basketball player. So you brought up the Clippers though. That to me, it's crazy to me,

this KD to the Knicks thing, which I promised I wasn't going to talk about. I even did a Twitter poll and more people voted for us not to talk about KD go to the Knicks than yes. But I do want to say, it makes so much more sense to me that he would go to the Clippers than the Knicks because the Knicks are the Knicks. They're horribly run. They have the same terrible owner they've had the last 20 years. If KD goes to the Knicks, that's just a dumb decision.

It's a dumb decision to go play for a bad organization. The Knicks are a bad organization. They are poorly run. They are run by somebody who is an incredibly vindictive, spiteful guy who has no idea what he's doing and doesn't know how to hire people. Why would he go there? You go to the Clippers. First of all, it's a much better run organization.

I don't think it's a top-notch organization yet, but at least Jerry West is there. I think Lawrence Frank has gained some respect over the years. Doc, I'll never be able to figure out what his relationship is with any of this anymore. Ballmer's really inventive and he's good in a room. And even though it's unclear whether he's a great boss or not, he's at least willing to spend money and try stuff and get creative. And you're in LA and I think KD measures himself against LeBron in all kinds of different ways. That makes much more sense to me to go into LA

and to try to take LA from LeBron. And all the entertainment and all the different stuff in here and the fact that it's a 40 minute flight from Silicon Valley. To me, that would be the favorite in the clubhouse, not the Knicks. You look at the Knicks, and I have no problem saying this over and over again for the next nine months.

They've signed two free agents this century that were, quote unquote, marquee free agents. Two free agents. There's actually three if you count- Jerome James. Well, no, Eddie Curry, if you count, but they had to trade picks for him. Here are the two marquee free agents Amari Stoudemire in 2010

right yeah who it was just he drew the short straw on the free agent sweepstakes he just

by the worst luck possible was in the same free agent class as LeBron Wade Bosh who else was

it was just everybody. And this was his one chance to get paid. He knew his knees were falling apart. The Suns wouldn't even sign him. Yeah, the Suns weren't interested in extending him. No, they didn't even offer. I don't even think they offered a contract. I think they offered him like a one-year deal.

They offered him an extension. Right, for like two years. But it was one of those offers that they knew he wouldn't take, but they could say that they offered it to him. So he signs a five-year deal with the Knicks, and his knees fall apart in six months. The second big free agent they signed was Tyson Chandler a year later after Dallas decided they didn't want to get him or re-sign him,

which was a very strange move by Cuban. So Dallas, so New York lands, Tyson Chandler. Those are the two free agents they have signed this century. Don't forget about Tim Hardaway. How dare you? Well,

but there's thing, those are the two free agents they've signed this century that had any chance of being one of the three best players on a title team. That's it. We're talking 20 years over and over again, them whiffing. Over the last couple of years, KD didn't even take a meeting there two years ago. LeBron wasn't even interested in discussing his future with them. Why are they suddenly a suitor? I don't know. I get the whole,

man, there's nothing greater than going to New York, but this is really what you're going to do. If you're KD, you're on a potential dynasty. You're on a team that might win three titles in a row. You're going to go to the Knicks. I think that's ludicrous. Do you remember what the Knicks said?

Like, Oh, Carmelo called them and pitched them. And that was like our meeting. Right. It was like the most meeting. It was like the most limp thing you could ever hear. So, I mean, why would anybody go play for James Dolan knowing

what we know? I have 20 years of experience now of James Dolan. Why would one of the 15 best players of all time be like, that's where I want to spend the next part of my career? You know what I'm thinking? For people who don't know what's going on in LA, there's these five skyscrapers that are, that are rising around Staples Center right now. They've been getting built the last couple of years. Um, they're, they're like, um, you know,

apartments and hotels and they have, there's all these like there's all these, like, full block-long size, like, video boards. It's almost like going to turn into, like, a little Times Square. Yeah. And all the lights are, like, all blue. And, like, it's really becoming, like, this incredible district. And as you're describing KD, I'm thinking in my head, can you imagine, like, if KD signed there next year and LeBron and KD were on competing sides of skyscrapers?

Because right now, LeBron's all over everything. LeBron's on four buildings down there with Nike ads and Beats ads. I was there for the home opener, and Popovich was like, damn, I opened up my hotel room window today and i got lebron staring at me in the face isn't it bad enough that i have to play him four times now twice a year and now i'm thinking like can you imagine just the like the like the the back and forth just in the for the real estate um advertising space in la of Durant and LeBron going back and forth, it is kind of exciting to think about them playing in the same building.

Like Monday night's LeBron, Tuesday night KD, Wednesday night LeBron, Thursday night KD. I mean, it is sort of a delicious thing to think about, and I'm sure that the Clippers would love to have it be a reality. I do think that if KD were to move the impetus for him moving would be I gotta go do this on my own because the one thing that still sticks to him a little bit is that he

had to join this team to do it and so I think the only reason that New York makes sense is that if you were to win a championship in New York and carry the Knicks, you would be regarded as one of the greatest of all time. If you were to deliver the Knicks their first title in

50 years... Wait, hold on, hold on, hold on. The Clippers have never even made the finals. I just want to point that out. But the Clippers are not the Knicks. The Clippers are not the Knicks. It's been the same drought. Who do you trust? Yes.

Your point is, who do you trust? Do you trust Steve Ballmer, Lawrence Frank, Mike Winger, and Doc Rivers? Or do you trust Jim Dolan? And Jerry West. Steve Mills. Jerry West, yeah. James Dolan is a clown show. Lee Jenkins.

Don't forget about Lee Jenkins. Yeah, Lee Jenkins. The only way it makes sense to me, the only way, the only way is if the Knicks hire Rich Kleiman, KD's dude. Like he's general manager or

president? Yeah, he becomes like the president of the team is Rich Kleiman and then he brings KD. That's the only way I think this happens. And the reality is it's not out of the realm of possibility. It's not out of the realm of possibility,. That's the only way I think this happens. And the reality is- It's not out of the realm of possibility. It's not out of the realm of possibility. But here's the thing.

He's the one who, you know, that's KD's guy. And he understands what a good Knicks team would mean to the city. And he's the one that would be selling that to KD if it was happening. So it's not like KD's like, man, someday it'd be great to bring the – these guys don't think that way.

They don't care about – they don't think about their legacy and shit like that. Like KD – KD's only won one MVP, right? KD is one of the best four forwards of all time. By any calculation, he's one of the best four. LeBron's won four. Duncan's won two. Larry Bird's won three.

KD's only won one MVP. And you would think like at some point, he would say, I got to get another one. But he just doesn't think like that. He's already been way more successful in his life than he ever expected. He gets to do what he does for a living. He's fantastic at basketball.

And I don't think he thinks about legacy that way. I don't think any of these guys do. I think LeBron is the only one who has been singularly driven to be like, I'm going to be better than Michael Jordan.

And I'm going to do more for my country and everything. To which one? Well, the Knicks better hone their pitch on legacy because that's what my pitch would be. One which one? Well, the Knicks better hone their pitch on legacy because that's what my pitch would be. One championship in New York would equal more than the three championships

he potentially would win in Golden State. Well, it's not just the legacy part, I think, why he would go there. I think it's like what you talked about earlier about being the guy. And the sell would be like, if you come to New York, you're the guy it's it's year one, Aaron judges to Sam Donald is three.

And that's how we look for the next decade. So do you want that? Do you want to be the guy in the biggest city in the, in America? I think that, I think this premise is one of the reasons why the Lakers, it's hard for Durant to go to the Lakers because while he and LeBron would be great,

the purpose of him leaving Golden State would be to like, I can do this on my own. So why would he go linked up, even if the Lakers are this incredible dynasty, this incredible legacy team? I just can't see him going to the Lakers for that very reason. He can't, I can't believe we just spent 10 minutes talking about this. I swore we weren't going to do this.

But you know what? It's kind of his fault. Because when he went to the Warriors, he basically made the league so top-heavy with them that the league really can't break its wings back out and fly until he leaves. And what I think is going to happen is, I think they're going to win it again. And I think

there's a good chance that he will leave. And when that happens, I think that the Warriors are going to be like, alright, we're going to show we can win without Durant. And we're going to be fired up and, you know, I don't know, maybe Cousins stays. Maybe they do something else. And I think that era will have been known as the Durant, the Golden State era,

where they had this three years and he checked off the boxes. And it will just be like, well, those guys put the NBA in a stranglehold for three years and he finally let it go. And the league, to a certain extent, is being weighed down by that a little bit. As great as the league is right now, as excited as I am to see what happens tonight, it's not hitting its full potential because there's not competition at the top and because the top markets haven't been as deep in the last few years.

The Knicks and Lakers consistently being out of the playoffs is not good for the league. I think it would be crazy to leave a team that just won the title. And I'll tell you this, Brian Windhorst, we've never seen it, ever. The only time we've ever seen an all-NBA caliber guy leave a team that just won the title was Scottie Pippen after they blew up the 98 Bulls.

Other than that, you can go through 70 years of history and find me the example of a guy winning the title. He was one of the best three guys and was like, all right, guys, that was great. I'll see you later. It's never happened. I completely agree. In fact, if you go back to old BS reports from 2000,

when I wasn't sure LeBron was going to walk from the heat in 2014, I was using the same rationale. I just think this is such a unique set of circumstances. And by the way, speaking of the heat, how much does it have to drive Pat Riley crazy that we're talking about all these free agents and how the league could change next year and the heat are not even in the conversation because they've loaded themselves down with above-average players that have completely taken them out of the market.

If Miami was alive and kicking in this race, we just talked about how mediocre New York's offering is and how, you know, if you go to the Clippers, it's sort of taking a little bit of second fiddle. Just think if Miami actually had themselves aligned properly instead of paying $80 million to two guys named Johnson and Dion Waiter. I think the Bosh thing really messed them up. They made such a big commitment to him, and it was going to be Bosh and Wade.

And within 18 months, all of a sudden Bosh couldn't play anymore. And they were involved in a possible legal case with them. And Dwayne Wade just lost his fastball. And at that point, you know, in retrospect, the move is, all right, audible, let's go. Let's, let's do what we did in 09 and 2010. Let's clear, let's clear the decks. But I think it was so abrupt. I just don't think they, they were like, ah, we let's go get this guy. We think it was so abrupt. I just don't think they were like, let's go get this guy. We'll patch together something. And it was a mistake.

They got a terrible break with Chris Bosh. It's one of the great tragedies in the last 20 years in the NBA. And he was ready to go up a level, it felt like. Are you kidding me? This NBA was built for Chris Bosh. Oh my God. His best days would be now.

I had him on a podcast last spring and we talked about that. It was like, this has to be crazy for you to watch the league morph into this league that he was the ultimate stretch five for. He would have been perfect. It's such an amazing

thing. I told this story before, probably not to you. There was this one time, I think it was during the finals one year in San Antonio, and I caught Chris at a really, like he was just exhausted because just going to a finals year after year after year is exhausting.

Yeah. And I remember him saying, man, Brian, I don't know if i'm gonna play much longer like i i you know i got other interests and i was like chris you're still going to be able to shoot and you're still going to be seven foot when you're 35 years old you will be able to play through your 40 and he's like i don't know man that's not who i am that's not who i'm going to be and i go okay when you i mean you can tell how long ago this was when I said this I was like when you turn down

12 million a year when you're 35 you let me know of course now it would be like 25 million a year but that's so funny is that like he was he you know and then it was taken away from him and he just did everything he possibly could to get it back which to me made it all the more melancholy.

I don't want to cause a ruckus here. So just in the caveat of, because you know this better than anyone, people like to take little snippets of a podcast and then turn them into blog posts. Yeah, aggregation. I wouldn't be shocked if he was on the Lakers this year. I don't think it can be ruled out. Yeah, I just, from what I understand, from both the agreement and the hurdles,

I just, I mean, I'm not going to say never because never is a stupid thing to say in the NBA. You end up looking like a fool. I think the hurdles are too great. And I think Chris knows that. And I think the reason he won't close the door is because he's hoping for some medication to happen or there to be a change of heart. But I really think the door is 99.99% closed. But it's not all the way closed.

I don't think it's closed for him. I think he's still holding out hope that there's going to be some advancement or the right doctor is going to figure out something or there's going to be some way that door opens again. He's still young. I hope he's right. What is he, 33, 34? Is he LeBron's age?

He's like 34 probably. Yeah, he's 34. But I mean, he can play tomorrow. I mean, I'm sure he can walk out there and hit threes tomorrow and he can rebound. Yeah. I mean, so the thing in Miami that happened was they had that second half of that season two years ago. Yeah, it threw them off. Where they went 30 and 11.

And they fell so hard in love with that team. And they had this whole heat culture thing. And the heat culture is a real thing. I mean, that is not a slogan. I mean, I was down there. I saw it. LeBron carries heat culture with him every day. LeBron was so positively impacted by being a part of that.

But they got so focused on that lightning in a bottle that they were like, we got to keep this team together. And, okay, I could even see them keeping the team together. Where they really made the mistake was that they gave these guys all four-year contracts. Right. the mistake was that they gave these guys all four-year contracts. Giving James Johnson a four-year contract, giving Dion Waiters a four-year contract, matching that Tyler

Johnson offer sheet, which was just beyond toxic. That was an affront. I barely knew who that was when they did that. I was like, Tyler, was that that guy? That was in a front. I barely knew who that was when they did that. I was like, Tyler, is that that guy? That was awful.

I can't believe they did that. And what happened was, sometimes you make one. I see this happen in our business a lot, Bill. And I use it as a learning experience. Somebody makes one decision, and then you have to make 11 decisions to back up the one decision. Yeah. So they,

they decide to match that offer sheet. And so they get this little two year window where his contract was artificially deflated because of the weird way it like ballooned at the end. And they're like, Oh, we have to use this space before Tyler Johnson money goes up. We have to use this space before Tyler Johnson's money comes up. And so when they don't get, when they don't get Gordon Hayward,

which from what I understand, it was the greatest presentation they ever gave. And, and I told, I've told this story too, but Tracy McGrady, McGrady told me this story. Now I want you to think about this. When you were like, cause McGrady was like 21, 22. So McGrady told me this story. Now, I want you to think about this. When you were, like, because McGrady was, like, 21, 22. So McGrady, this is the year where Grant Hill's a free agent, McGrady's a free agent, Duncan's a free agent, right? They're all the same year. Yeah.

Jason Kidd, maybe, whatever it was. They bring him down on a private jet, and they bring him to Alonzo Morning's house on Biscayne Bay. All right? And they have drinks, and they hang out. And, you know, Zoe was, like, one of the coolest guys in the league. He still is one of the coolest guys in the league. They're chilling at Zoe's house, and all of a sudden this speedboat pulls up to Zoe's house.

And Zoe says, hey, Tracy, let's go for a ride. They get into the speedboat pulls up to Zoe's house. And Zoe says, hey, Tracy, let's go for a ride. They get into the speedboat, they hit go, and the speedboat goes, you know, 80 miles an hour across this game bay, zapping past the arena,

downtown Miami, beautiful, and it pulls in to Pat Riley's house down the coast. And Riley is standing there holding the max contract offer for him. Jesus.

First off, he said no to that to play in Orlando, number one. Number two, the Heat people say that the beating that they had with Hayward was even better. So they thought they were going to get him. And so they did. Okay, they did.

But then they end up giving these guys four-year contracts. And so now when you want a pivot and you say, all right, let's clear this space because maybe we can get Durant, maybe we can get Kawhi, now you can't because these guys are locked into these long-term deals that you can't move unless

you give away all these picks. It's not just signing those guys, but signing those guys to four-year contracts. It was so rough. Well, you're not going to like this fake trade I those guys to four-year contracts. It was so rough. Well, you're not going to like this fake trade I made up. Three-teamer. Okay. Goran Dragic to the Grizzlies,

along with Jason Smith's expiring contract. John Wall to the Miami Heat. Mike Conley to the Wizards. It's a triple point guard trade. Memphis cuts some salary. Miami rolls the dice with John Wall. Who the hell knows what his ceiling is at this point. Washington gets a stable veteran point guard that we all love. Mike Conley changes their team a little bit. They had a little more professional. Who says no? Who says no? Actually, let's take a break. We'll find out who says no right after this. Hey, let's talk about Ze. We'll find out who says no right after this.

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Who says no to that three tamer, Brian Windhorst? Well, that's, Bill, that's so interesting. It's a great one, right? I was so proud of it. I thought of it on the plane yesterday. I was delighted with myself. Well, I'm going to say something. I think you've got something there between

Memphis and Washington. Yeah. I think maybe Marc Gasol, though. Boy, I tried to figure out all these different ways to put Conley and Gasol in the same contract, in the same

trade with Washington. And sadly, Jan Mahimny has to be involved, and I think that's a deal-breaker for all of us in America. I've been considering Marc Gasol. There's two situations that I'm going to come back to. Two

Gasol landing spots that I can think of. One was Washington because I can think of one was Washington. Cause I think they're under some pressure. Yeah. They're struggling. Two is port. Oh,

okay. Now we're talking. So you're thinking like a little, but it's NERC edge. And what else, what do I need? What do I need to give up for Marc Gasol at this point, who's an old center,

who has not really been an all-star caliber guy now for a couple years, but at the same time, we know how good he is. And then you have to pay him. Well, I'd want Collins, but I don't think they want to. I think he's sort of like their guy of the future. Let me look at it. So Gasol's on the books for 24. I think Evan Turner has to be in the trade.

So Evan Turner and Collins for Gasol. They love Collins. But I mean, if you're trying to convince Damien a little bit, you're serious. You know? You think Gasol feels like Jokic is not only on his corner, but took his corner and then blew it out and added a Starbucks to it?

I mean, Marc Gasol is one of the best-passing big men until I saw Jokic. Now I say Jokic is the best passing big man I've seen you know this side of Bill Walton yeah Jokic is like Jokic is the whole oh man

imagine if Sabonis had been here when he was young before his knee injury and then it's yeah he would have been Jokic so I still hold this thought though because you at the start of this podcast, and then I sidetracked this seven different times. We talked about how the panic button has somehow entered the equation in October.

We talked about OKC. I think Washington is an obvious panic button team for a variety of reasons. The chemistry seems way off. I'm not sure that coach is long for that job. And they have an owner who just won the Stanley Cup who's now feeling himself a little bit. And it just feels like I don't think it's sustainable with the three guys they have.

Somebody's got to move somewhere. I would add them to the hot button list. Who else do you have on it for the panic button? How about the team that just offered four first round picks? Ooh, I like where you're going. By the way, defensible offer. Because I mapped this out. So if it's Brandon Knight and Chris for Butler

and four first round picks are in there, getting rid of Brandon Knight's contract is worth, I would say a first round pick and a half. Cause you're getting rid of like 30 million bucks over two years. Right? So then you're offering two and a half first round picks for Jimmy Butler, basically. And that makes sense to me.

They have no, no real. It doesn't make sense to Tom Thibodeau, but. I don't think I would do that if I was him. And here's why. No way. I'm getting fired in June anyway.

So my best chance is to figure out how to make this work with Townsend, Butler, and Wiggins. And if I can't make it work, I'm gone either way. Guess where I'm not going to be? Drafting those four first-round picks. I'm really excited about that 2023 first if I'm Tom Thibodeau drafting those four first-round picks. I'm really excited about that 2023 first if I'm Tom Sibena. Well, here's the thing.

How does that come out? Now, Woj, as we both know, just gets an incredible amount of information from all sides. If I'm Houston, I want that offer to come out. You want Minnesota's owner to be checking Twitter

or watching ESPN's ticker or whatever the hell he's doing and being like, wait a second, they offered us four first round picks. I'm calling Tom Thibodeau to find out what happened. That's the only way he's even going to find out you did that. I would tell you something. Now that I've worked with him for a year and a half, a year and plus now,

and I can sort of see the inside. Woj is the 31st franchise. That's hilarious. Now, he will never talk about this because, first off, he's very, very deflecting. Yeah. And let me just say something to all of my colleagues out there who, you know, they aspire to be Woj. It's not happening. Woj never, ever, ever took a victory lap on social media.

I just want to point that out to all my colleagues out there. But Woj's his 31st franchise. You know how you sometimes need a third team to make a deal work? Yeah, that's Woj's his 31st franchise. Um, he, you know, you know how you sometimes need a third team to make a deal work. Yeah. Sometimes you need Woj to make a deal work. Um, and that's what Houston was doing yesterday. Well, there's a report already this morning from a couple of different places that

the, that the heat re-engaged the Wolf. Um, um, honestly, honestly, and I'm not even kidding here. and re-engage the Wolf. Of course there was. Honestly, and I'm not even kidding here, this is not false flattery, I'm being 100% real. There have been plenty of times where guys have gotten hired in jobs. Players have been traded.

And agents have been hired like where a player switches agents and lets the agent like where woge informs that person before the person gets the formal word right because that's how plugged in okay so in my mind what hou Houston is doing here is like a little smokescreen. Because what they don't want to do is trade TJ Tucker and Eric Gordon. No, you have to make this trade without giving up either of those guys. That's the only way it makes sense. You have to have... Well, then you better go find a third team who wants your four first-round draft picks that you can get stuff for to send to Minnesota.

Because Tom Thibodeau wants a starting shooting guard when the dust clears. And I'm just going to say, in one of the nights I'll remember for a long time when I was in Minnesota for the home opener, where the fans were booing Jimmy at the start and then MVP chanting him at the end, those fans do not want to go back. where the fans were booing Jimmy at the start and then MVP chanting him at the end. Yeah. Those fans do not want to go back. It's not just Tib who wants to save his backside. Those fans, at 13 years of ice-cold winters, going to see bad teams.

Yeah. They don't want... Don't tell them, oh, this is our three year plan. When Wiggins and towns become all stars, don't sell them on another three year plan. They don't want to go backwards. So to me,

if there's a deal to be made and it gets Miami involved or gets another team involved. Um, and I kind of feel like, you know, you're talking about trading point guards I feel like if there's a trade out there where there's a point guard in it then Phoenix has to somehow get in it too

maybe this has to be if Houston is really willing to give up four first round picks there are people out there that will take those picks off their hands and maybe there's a trade that way I just don't think it's going to be Minnesota. Hmm. Yeah. Unfortunately,

there's not that player to plug into the Butler spot that fits for a variety of reasons. Well, Josh Richardson in two years, when Jimmy Butler might be making 38 billion and Josh Richardson is making 13 million and their production may be somewhat even, Jimmy Butler might be making $38 million, and Josh Richardson is making $13 million, and their production may be somewhat even. I could see a scenario where you could really convince yourself that Josh Richardson plus

another asset or two is a good trade. But again, when the dust clears on this, they got to have somebody to start tonight at shooting guard that can help them make the playoffs. Well, that's why I like Derek Gordon. Yeah, that's why I like Derek Gordon. Yeah, that's why they like, that's why they want it to go that way too. Maybe there's some version of this where he's in it too

and they take back Dang's contract and there's less picks or something. I still have major reservations about Butler and I don't think he took even 10% of the shit he should have taken for the way he behaved. And I would say that if he comes on the podcast, I would love to talk to him about it because I just don't understand. He's been on twice and we had a great time and I'm ready for the third one. I know he's coming here next month. I just don't understand how this is leadership.

It doesn't make sense to me. You don't lead by dividing people as we're finding out like in our effing country too. The way to lead people, especially young people, is not to like call them out and talk about how soft they are and how they don't care about winning. Like that, that's the opposite of what you have to do. And that's, I've never seen that work ever as a formula. And then on top of it, he doesn't have the weight to really kind of tell people, you know, follow me.

I'm Jimmy Butler. Like he hasn't won anything. I just don't agree with how he behaved. I don't agree with how it was covered. I don't agree with how, um, kind of how we enable bad behavior now from athletes, and we don't really question it. I think in some situations, especially with basketball, because we all just love basketball.

It's like, oh man, Jimmy Butler, he went into that practice and laid the smack down, and then he left, and he walked right into his Rachel Nichols interview. I thought that was embarrassing. And what the quotes that he was saying, they were incoherent. They really were. I don't even know what his point is. He's all about winning. Well, if you're all about winning, you're going to go to Miami and play with Hassan Whiteside and Dion Waiters? I don't understand any of this.

I don't understand his motivations for anything. Is that somebody I want to give up four first rounders for? I don't know. What I don't understand is how he says, you know, he pressured the franchise

to clear space for him to get a renegotiation and extension right now. And he, you know, that was a demand

that was issued to the team. Right, and they would have had to clear out, pay with first round picks to clear out salaries. So he's all about winning, but he's going to like cripple their team. Right. Right, and they would have had to pay with first-round picks to clear out salaries.

So he's all about winning, but he's going to cripple their team? Right, but then he tells Rachel that it's not about money. That's where I will throw the flag of, like, what are you talking about? It's not about money. Because if you want to believe his side of the story, let's ignore what they would have done. Let's just say that they did. Let's say they renegotiated and extended um under the under that belief that it was it was actually all about money because if you weren't happy there and you weren't happy with your teammates but you were willing to take the extra 10 million in the extension yeah then

what are we talking about but i mean i do see see what's going on with the team right now. When you watch him play, everybody out there is miserable except for Jimmy. Jimmy's having a blast. Yeah, because he loves dysfunction. He liked it in Chicago too. I don't think that's a good quality for your best player. Oh, this is dysfunctional. I'm having a great time.

He is a great player, man. And that's the thing. Ultimately, despite all this, let's say he just finishes out this season with the Wolves, and let's just say they get the eighth seed again and they get knocked out in the first round, there will be a line of teams ready to offer him a full max. The reason he can do this is because he will not be harmed. If he avoids injury.

Yeah, but think about what you just said. The reason he can do this is because he will not be harmed. If he avoids injury. Yeah, but think about what you just said. The reason he can do this is because he will not be harmed. Why aren't more people calling that out? I don't understand it. Like, he's behaving badly. This is not the way somebody should behave who cares about being on a winning team.

He's just not thinking logically about any of it. What's the downside of it? I mean, for him- To blowtorching your situation so you get traded? I think that's shitty. He's not somebody that I would want to be the boss of. Okay. Let's say, though, he gets traded to Miami,

and then he gets his five-year $200 million. He gets the fifth year. Right. Which, you, which that'll be 40-some million dollars he'd never get otherwise. He wins, right? He wins. Or he gets traded to Houston and he gets that. He wins. Let's say he goes through this season and it's miserable for Towns and Wiggins and everybody else. I mean, the night I was there, they won that game. Yeah.

It was their first win of the season. And the locker room cleared out within like 90 seconds. He was the only guy in there. He was having a blast reading his phone. Everybody else wanted out of there. It was almost like they lost a playoff game. Right. He sounds like an asshole.

I mean, really. And I know he's not an asshole because I met him. He's just, he's, I don't know. I don't know why, why you want this to be your public persona. The interview that I had with him after that game was one of my favorite interviews I've had in the last year because I appreciated his honesty. Yeah. But again, what's the downside for him? He takes some short term crap, but it's not even that much crap. He's getting cheered, getting MVP chance. That's one of the reasons he's out there smiling.

Right. And when he says, when he tells them, you can't win without me, it's a dick thing to say, but he knows he's right. So he thinks he's got the truth on his side. And so that just, that just enables him. Yeah. But with the part that he's not seeing is if he does care about winning, the way to win is to get the most out of Towns, who is definitely not the strongest dude. But he's already decided that he can't.

Right, he's decided Towns is a loser, but they just gave Towns an extension. So he's stuck with him anyway if he's there. Right, but he's not stuck there. And it'd be one thing if like the way he was behaving, there was only like three teams out there that had space next year. And, you know,

with Kawhi and Durant and all those guys, you know, you know, there'd be some teams turned off to him and he'd have to take less than, but he's not, he's going to get, the offers are going to roll in as long as he's healthy. The offers are going to roll in anyway. I don't like it

from a karma standpoint for him. Here's what I heard though. Well, that's a different topic. Here's what I heard and what I think happened. I think he looked at that Wiggins number and was just like, trade him and give me the money.

That's how I'll stay. And they're like, well, we're not doing that. And then it snowballed from there. But I think he just looked at it as like, well, Wiggins, he's barely, you might never even make an all-star team. You're giving him that. They're like, well, we can't afford,

we have this town, Wiggins, we have town's extension coming. We'll just trade Wiggins and give me the money. They're like, well, yeah, and then it just goes downhill. Right? There's these group of guys who signed in 2015. Kemba Walker is one of them.

Clay Thompson is one of them. Draymond. Draymond. Yeah. Who they signed before the cap spike. Yep. And it's nobody's fault. Like, it's not anybody's fault that they're underpaid.

They just are because of the nature of the way the league went. And, like, they're salty about it. Super salty. And, like, I think Kemba Walker makes, like, $14 million or something. No, he's, like, $12.5 million. No, he's like $12.5 million, yeah. Like, nobody would sit here and say to you that Kemba Walker is not worth two and a half times that amount right now. Or that Jimmy Butler is way outside of what his company has contracted. I get it.

My only thing is that they all want to get it made up for in the next contract. And I don't know if signing Jimmy Butler for $200 million or signing Kemba Walker for $200 million, even though they deserve the more money than they are now, is a smart, prudent decision. But I also get that these guys, and J.J. Reddick asked this question on his podcast to Michelle Roberts last year, and she gave an answer that was unbelievable to me. Yeah, it was awful. She said, don't be mad at me. Take it up with God. You graduated at the wrong time. You got here at the wrong time. They told her. Adam and all those people were like, this is what's going to happen. We should spread this out. It's still going to be the same money. They showed her charts.

They explained it to her. I'm just saying that we're three years off the cap spike or four years, I don't know, whatever it's going to be. And there's still fallout from it. Not only every single night with the Warriors laying waste. I mean, the other night, you know, Curry goes for 51 freaking points in three quarters. You know what? Durant had 30. I know.

You know, so we did MVP picks, me and House, before the year. And we were just walking. Oh, we did it with Sal. Going through all the possible MVP scenarios. And got to Curry. And I was like, here's in his odds were like 15 to one. It was like, here's the case. He has his best year in three years. He has a hundred percent of his mojo.

He has like that one last really apex career year and goes 55, 50, 90 splits and does something like we've just never seen before. 55% shooting, 50% from three, 90% from free throw. Because he should be in his prime right now. Right, right. He should be in his prime. Because I had studied his stats, and I always, when I look,

I love going to basketball reference and just being like, all right, this guy's here. Here's his best season. Could there be 8% better here? Could this go slightly up? And there was a roadmap for a 55-50-90. So now you go in, he obviously is just at the peak of his powers right now.

Here's what I think. Do they play tonight? We're taping this Friday morning. I think they play there tonight or tomorrow night. He's had five threes in every game he's played this season. Yeah, yeah. They play the Knicks. So here's the thing. Cause you know, the media loves narratives. If he has five threes in like the first 15 games of the season and create some

new to Baggio type streak, we'd never even had occurred to us. Right. And it's like Steph Curry is going for a 16th straight game where he has five threes or more. That's going to become a thing. And I think that the thing about Curry is he hasn't been a thing in three years. And now it's starting to feel like Durant's on his way out whenever that's going to happen. It just feels like there's an inevitability to when he leaves. And here's Curry and it's his team.

They're moving to the San Francisco arena next year. He's one of the most popular athletes of the century. And it's like he's spreading his wings even a little bit more. And it just feels like this has a chance to be, I would say his year. I still think Davis is going to win the MVP because he's like freaking Clint Eastwood right now. But I think there's a case for Curry, right? So let me just say, I recognize last week that Seinfeld references are past day. Yeah.

Because the magic loogie, people didn't get it. Yeah, it was too far away. But the Matrix, I always call it the matrix moment. Like when Neo stops the bullet and he realizes that he can control everything. LeBron had that moment in 2007 against the Pistons. Yeah. Curry kind of had the moment at Madison Square Garden

at a game I was at when he hit 11 threes. Yep. People around the team will tell you that he was different after that. He told me that. He told me that when I did the podcast this summer. He brought that game up and he was like, something changed. Yeah. Anthony Davis, he had it.

He had the matrix moment last year when um cousins went down uh he played five dog games he had like a couple games he scored like 14 points 15 points and they were they were they were sucking wind and they lost i think they lost four of the five and he could have gone either way and he he had this meeting with one of his assistant coaches in Gentry, and it was in Brooklyn. And he just had this epiphany, and he was like, okay, I've got to be Russell Westbrook. I'm going to be Westbrook like he was when Durant went down with the fracture.

I'm just going to take over. And ever since, now granted, he's got to stay healthy, and the same for Curry. Ever since Anthony Davis, the matrix moment happened, he controls the game out there. He's got it. We're waiting.

I'm waiting for the matrix moment for Giannis. And then, the next guy in line, Tatum. Sort of on the assembly line for me, is Tatum. Yeah,

I agree. He, his, his, his toe went in the water in game seven last year, but it's too early. He's two to three years away, but he's got an FU edge.

I thought Barkley, somebody was talking about it last night. I think it was Barkley, but about, oh, maybe it was Kenny. They were talking about how if you're going to be one of the best five players in the league, you have to have some sort of edge. And they didn't call it the fuck you edge, but they should have. Tatum, even though he's a quiet guy, he intentionally dunked on LeBron last year. Last night, he saw Paul George. He could have done whatever.

As soon as he saw him and he saw he had a chance to dunk to him, he's like, I'm dunking on him. And he dunked right on his head. He has a little FU. My question with Davis was always, does he have it? And I think you're right. That Matrix moment. I don't know if you saw the clip this week of he just torched Gallinari.

And then he was running back up the court and he put his hand way down close to the court like little guy was on me he had no chance he's just in fuck you mode it's great and I thought Giannis was going to win the MVP I didn't feel 100% on it but he was the guy I would have picked

well Giannis could have the matrix moment during the season I don't know I don't think he's quite there yet so this is why this MVP argument is going to be a really fun one this year because the Bucs might be like a 58-win team for all we know. The way Coach Budd has transformed them offensively, which we all kind of figured was going to happen, has been really exciting to watch. And Giannis is going to put up crazy numbers with the pace and all that.

Davis, though. But you're right about Curry, too, because almost if you want to win the MVP, you kind of should do it the way you win an Oscar. Oh, yeah. It's good narratives. You've got to have the narrative. You kind of hire a secret fixer to tell

your story, because the MVP has often got the best story. Yeah. Because the MVP is often who's got the best story. It's those three. I must have won it because of the story. Oh, no question. And that's happened

when I did the MVP chapter in my book, I was writing about how annoying that was and how often that's happened and leads to things like Carl Malone winning the MVP in 1997.

Because everybody looked around in March, they're bored by the season and were like, hey, Carl Malone winning the MVP in 1997. Because everybody looked around in March, they're bored by the season. And we're like, hey, Carl Malone, he's had a great career. Why can't he win the MVP? And then all of a sudden we're down this road and we can't come back. So I think this year, Giannis Davis and Curry, I think. But the thing is, like, if Davis-

What if the Lakers win like 53 games and LeBron almost has his triple-double? He'd have to play really hard on both ends with the kind of spotlight they have this season. I think he'd do it. I think people are... People know there's a playoff LeBron. They know it's not final gear LeBron

during the regular season. It's just not. And if you have Davis out there, like Clint Eastwood every night, They know it's not final gear LeBron during the regular season. It's just not. And if you have Davis out there like Clint Eastwood every night and he drags them to 54 wins with Alfred Payton as his point guard, he's going to win the MVP. If Giannis gets the two seed in the East and they go 61 and 21 and he averages a 28, 12 and seven, like he's going to be in the mix. You know, I just think, averages a 28, 12, and 7. Like, he's going to be in the mix, you know?

I just think... For sure. I think there's more competition for LeBron this year than in other years. I mean, remember the year Derrick Rose won the MVP or, like, one of those Nowitzki versus Nash years? LeBron is still salty about that. Yeah, you know...

LeBron is still salty about the Derrick Rose. And he likes Derrick Rose. I voted for him. Like, personally. I voted for Derrick Rose. And he likes Derrick Rose. I voted for him. Like, personally. I voted for Derrick Rose. I don't think I had a vote that year, but LeBron understood at the time why

Derrick Rose. LeBron honestly believes he should have about eight. But that's a different argument. Like, were you the best player that year is a different argument were you the best player that year is a different argument than were you the most valuable player in this 82 game regular season that sets up the playoffs and I think people miss that point

like LeBron last year he played all 82 games he was awesome offensively but that team was a train wreck defensively. And one of the most miserable chemistry teams ever, partly because he just wasn't playing defense at all.

And that just has to matter at some point. When you have LeBron, you know. He also shut down a mid-season to force the team into making trades. Let's talk about Roman. And let's face it, guys are terrible at taking care of their health. Studies show 70% of guys who experience erectile dysfunction don't get treated for it. And that is bad. The thing most people don't realize, ED is like a check engine

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Oh, we didn't hit Philly. Philly, Washington, Houston are teams to watch. Because I think Philly's looking around going, boy, Milwaukee's good. Toronto's a beast. We know Boston's going to be there. We may want to do something. So I think Washington's going to feel the pressure, and Houston is already feeling the pressure.

So I think those teams look out. I think Philly completely botched their summer, and I said that before this season. I hated their summer. It didn't help that their general manager got fired in June. It didn't. But he also got fired during a time when they could have

just found somebody else to help out with some of the decision making. You know who it should have been? In 2024... Brett Brown, the coach. That mistake to have your coach decide on front office stuff. Don't do that. Bad mistake. In 2024, after you've sold the ringer

to a larger media company for $1.6 billion, to the Saudis, yeah, you'll write a column that says, what if in 2018 LeBron is signed with the Sixers? You'll do one of your great what if columns. Do you really think that was even remotely possible?

No. I mean, they got a meeting with Rich Paul. Let's be honest. Let's be honest. No, but let's be honest. Let's be honest now. Both of us knew when's be honest let's be honest now both of us knew when we were at the finals

in June that he was signing with the Lakers we knew before that he was signing with the Lakers I'm being generous I think if it was in

bet your life standpoint I wasn't at the bet my life that he was going to the Lakers but I would have made large bets and actually I did

I wasn't at bet my reputation because if I would have bet my reputation I And actually, I did. I wasn't at Bet My Reputation, because if I would have bet my reputation, I just would have reported it. Instead, I had to hedge, because you have to hedge everything. So I saw that. I wanted to ask you about that, actually. But they talked about Philly. They talked about Philly.

Nah, he was never going there. I wanted to ask you about that, because you said you were more confident internally than you were when you went on TV. I saw that interview you gave, where you were like, I was like at 90%, but when I was on TV, I said it was 51%. Why didn't you just say it was 90%? I didn't understand that. Because that's life.

Because that's where we are in the world today. You're afraid of the backlash? Because aggregation, because stuff like that, because things get taken out of because things get taken something i said in this last hour will get taken out of context and i'll end up getting a call sometime over the weekend from some team or an email or a text and they'll be angry about it and frankly i just didn't i didn't feel like dealing with it But after the day of the draft, the night of the draft, as I was walking out of the studio where I had done some TV

at Seaport Studios in New York, I got a phone call from somebody who gave me the best information that I've gotten on LeBron Free Agency in June in my career. And the next day I did the Zach Lowe podcast and said 51%, but in my head I was at 91%.

That's funny. The backlash is kind of, I don't know, frightening is the right word, but annoying is not the right word. What's the right word? Well, this is the thing. This is why Woj is amazing. Woj lives in a world where every single tweet can change the face of the NBA.

Yeah. It's an incredible responsibility. And that's why he's got to be diligent. He can't afford to be wrong. Yeah. And so he lives in a world where he's got to knock everything, he's got to nail things down a lot tighter. It's an uncomfortable world to live in.

So, like, I can't say that it's done, right? Because it's not done, because that would be inaccurate to say it's done. So you end up playing this world of gray, and you do your best in it, because we do incremental reporting in the league now. Now we, you know, when I first started covering the league, we would just say, this player's getting traded for this player. Maybe there would be a little bit of a heads up. But now the ball moves down the field in three-yard increments, and if you fumble on the 45-yard line, you end up paying for it for six weeks, not only publicly, but within your source space and everything like that. And so you end up holding onto the ball like a maniac because you're afraid of making a mistake. And so I wish that wasn't the case.

I wish I could just say, well, I got a big pair of brass ones, and I'm going to say it. But the downside is a lot greater than the upside. Because if you screw something, I mean, you mean, Woj is broken 550,000 stories. If he were to mess one up, a big one, people would remember that. It's a hell of a tightrope he has to walk. I'm genuine. I genuinely admire the way he has to do it.

I'm not just saying it. I know that people have different opinions than everybody, but I don't want that job. Yeah, he got the Al Horford signing wrong. And I remember being absolutely flabbergasted that Woj got one wrong. But as you said, his batting average was like 7,500 for 7,502 or something. If he says it, it's happening. It's happening. Like they can deny it or whatever, but like, okay, well,

but eventually it's going to, it's going to be there. And a lot of times, like, I remember he reported that, um, that the, that the Kings were all set.

The Kings moved to Seattle was done. Well, it ended up being like a complete six month or six week long process or whatever, and got undone. But when he reported it, it was done. Right.

He was right. And he's the 31st team. The 31st franchise. I like that. The 31st franchise. Woosh. Windhorse, this was great. It was good catching up.

Good talking. We left some meat on the bone so you can come back and we can hit through some of this other stuff. Congrats on all your success. Thanks for coming on. Good luck to your Red Sox. I have no skin in the game. Thank you.

So I say good luck to you. Thank you. Appreciate it. All right. We'll talk to you soon. All right. Bye-bye. All right.

Before we go, quick World Series thoughts. I got to say, J.D., if he doesn't play tonight, that's not the worst thing in the world for me. Because I like having the best outfield defense on the planet behind Porcello, who gives up fly balls and lots of hard hits. And I don't mind having that defense. And then JD, kind of available in the fifth, sixth inning for a double switch. He comes in the lineup, whatever.

But for those first five innings, I have my defense in place. And I think Porcel is going to do well tonight. Don't sleep on him hitting. He's three for seven this year. He had a huge double against Max Scherzer this season. I think he could have at least one good at bat. Bueller's been really good this year. This is a different stage.

This is do or die. And I don't know. I don't like the way the Dodgers are playing. I do feel like the Red Sox have a really good chance to win this one. And then it goes to game four, obviously. And if they could somehow get up 3-0, everything shifts. But the reason we didn't do a World Series podcast, there's about to be three games in 48 hours.

And by the time you listen to it, 19 things will have changed. But man, it's nice to win those first two. And I do think there's gonna be a lot of pressure on the Dodgers tonight. It's gonna be a weird crowd, late arriving crowd, five o'clock game. It's gonna be an absolute clusterfuck to get there. I am skipping tonight's game. I'm going to

four and I'm going to five. I'm feeling pretty good about this Red Sox team right now. The Joe Kelly, Craig Kimbrell and Evaldi going 18 for 18 getting guys out in games one and two is unexpected. The Joe Kelly renaissance kind of gave up on him.

Now he's had a nice little turn. And this Red Sox team, it's all setting up. Now, I will remind you, I felt this way in 1986. We were up 2-0 against the Mets. So it's not like a Red Sox team has not blown a 2-0 lead before. But I like the way they're playing. And more importantly, I don't think the Dodgers are hitting well

or playing well. And it feels like a nice combination if you're a Boston fan. So good luck to my team. And maybe I'll see some of you at Dodger Stadium this weekend. If not, Sal and I, I'm going to game five. Sal and I are taping our podcast late Sunday night after whenever the Dodger

game was over. We could be taping at 11 o'clock, Kyle. You better take a nap. All right. We're taking a nap that night. Fine. We're doing like an 11 o'clock taping that night. So I will talk to you then. Thanks to Brian Wynhorst. Thanks to ZipRecruiter. Don'tst. Thanks to ZipRecruiter. Don't forget to go to ziprecruiter.com slash BS. Thanks to SeatGeek. Don't forget to download the SeatGeek app.

Thanks to Red Dead Redemption 2 from the creators of Grand Theft Auto V. An epic story of honor and loyalty set in the dying days of America's outlawed era. Told across the deepest and most expansive Rockstar world to date. Out now for PlayStation 4 and Xbox One on October 26th. Is it on October 26th? It's today. Oh, there you go, Kyle.

All day, we're streaming it, I think. Jason Concepcion told me. There you go, Kyle. We're streaming it on Fortnite Fridays? Yeah, well, it's Red Dead. The ringer Twitch? Oh, yeah. We're streaming all day.

Available for purchase at rockstargames.com slash reddeadredemption2. Rated M for Mature. Enjoy the weekend. I don't have feelings within. On the wayside, I'm a person never lost. I don't have feelings within.