The Bill Simmons Podcast - NBA Ringz Culture, Wobbling for Wemby Trade Teams, and Week 17 Million-Dollar Picks With Van Lathan, Wosny Lambre, and Peter Schrager

Episode Date: December 30, 2022

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Wosny Lambre and Van Lathan to settle a disagreement about whether the Nikola Jokic hype is overblown (3:57), before Bill and Wosny look at the NBA teams who may benefit from making an early trade and tanking for a chance at Victor Wembanyama in the 2023 NBA Draft (36:09). Then Bill talks with Peter Schrager of NFL Network and Fox Sports about which NFL teams still have a reason to compete heading into Week 17, some matchups including Commanders-Browns, Giants-Colts, Patriots-Dolphins, Jets-Seahawks, Panthers-Buccaneers, Vikings-Packers, Steelers-Ravens, favorite underdogs, and more (1:06:25). Finally Bill gives out the Million-Dollar Picks for NFL Week 17 (1:49:11). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Van Lathan, Wosny Lambre, and Peter Schrager Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Check out TheRinger.com for a bunch of our end of the year stuff, movies, music, TV, sports, favorite sports moments of the year written by our entire staff. And also you can check out our NBA player rankings, which is, I think the last time it was updated was two weeks ago, but we're going to be diving into it in January, including a possible trade value comp. Stay tuned. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us.

Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this, it's game day. All the gang's here. You're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're standing at the grill and the smell of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that. Or when you want a light beer that tastes like beer,

that's delicious. You don't want to load up on those heavier beers and then you only have two of them. Then you feel tired. Your stomach feels full. Miller Lite, it's your friend. It just accompanies whatever else you're doing. You're super happy with it. Opening an ice cold Miller Lite can signal the beginning of Miller Time. Miller Lite is the light beer with all the great beer tastes we like. 90 calories per 355

mil can. So why not grab some Miller Lites today? Your game time tastes like Miller Time. Must be legal drinking age. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet it all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the Chargers are going to be good. I think Seattle's going to be good. And then trying to back what you think in those first few weeks and then zag the other way. If you were wrong, you could bet on new and fun markets on FanDuel, like to catch a pass, same game parlays, highest scoring game

across the Sunday slate, offensive TDs, the next drive. They have so much stuff. It's crazy. The app is safe and secure and easy to use. And when you win, you'll get paid instantly. Plus, look out for FanDuel Squares this season. Here's what you have to do. Visit FanDuel.com slash BS to download America's number one sportsbook. The Ringer

is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit RG-Help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. And listen to the end of the episode for additional details. You must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. I put up a new Rewatchables on Monday.

We did Mission Impossible Fallout. Starting next week, it is one word movie month and we're doing an action movie as the first one. That's your only hint. Speaking of the rewatchables, we did Victory a couple of years ago, which I think the last 25 minutes of Victory is one of the great sports movies ever.

It might even be in my top three ever for just rewatchability of any sort of sports slash movie thing. Pele is a huge part of it. He passed away today. I was bummed like everybody else. When I was growing up, it was Ali and it was Pele and then it was everybody else. That was it for the 70s. Ali, Pele, drop off, bring in your other athletes, but those were the two. And, you know, watching on Wild World of Sports, they started showing Cosmos games. It felt like such an important moment when he came here.

It's like, oh my God, Pele's going to play here in New York? There's a great documentary about it that my friend Michael Davis was involved with that ESPN ran in 2006. I'm blanking on the name, but that did a good job of capturing how much it meant to have Pele here. But it's funny. He lives on for me because I watch Victory all the time, especially the last 25, 30 minutes. And he's such a big part of that movie. And it's the perfect way to use a famous athlete in a movie. We get to see him do all his soccer

stuff. He acts in a couple scenes, but it's okay. They don't, they don't lean on it too much. It's like just the right amount, but he's really there for like the star power and the charisma and the whole thing. And so I feel like just from that movie, he's been in my life the last 40 years,

there was a good movie that somebody did about him. I'm going to say four or five years ago that I thought was really watchable about young Pele. But just like, you know, about him, I'm going to say four or five years ago that I thought was really watchable about young Pele. But just like the greatest soccer player ever. Messi's making a run lately, but I think Pele, he just occupies a different stratosphere. And it was sad to hear that he passed away today. But man, I always think of him with the bicycle kick in Victory. It's so weird that a filmed moment. He's done, you go on YouTube,

you can watch a million bicycle kicks that he'd done that were way crazier, higher degree of difficulty, the whole thing. But the Victory, that bicycle kick was such a cool moment for a sports movie. Plus he had the big speech with Stallone in the tunnel. Please, Hatch, you must play. You know how much this game means to us.

I've watched that like 300 times in my life. RIP Pele. We have on this podcast coming up, Dan Lathan and Big Waz. We're going to argue about Nikola Jokic and how soon can you start comparing somebody to the all-time greats. So that was the discussion

and it just went off the rails from there. Then after that, Waz stayed on and we talked about the possible Wemba Nyama teams. We are now in self-sabotage trade season. Who's going to be the first one to do a self-sabotage trade? Then Peter Schrager talking about the week 17 games

and who we want for a million dollar picks. Last but not least, we did a million dollar picks. It's not least, we did million dollar picks. It's a great action-packed podcast. NBA, NFL, it's all next. First, our friendsaz is here. Van Lathan is here. We talked about Jokic on this podcast on Tuesday

and Luka Doncic with our guy J. Kyle Mann. And I was saying that I thought on my all-time fun NBA team, if I had to pick five guys to throw together, Bird, Magic, and Jokic would be three of the five, and then I would figure out the rest. Waz, Van reacted to this like I stole plutonium from the Russians and I was selling it to the highest bidder. He was very upset.

He correctly pointed out that Jokic has never won anything, and he wants to pour everyone a big glass of Settle Down juice. So before we hear from Van, where do you stand, Waz? Are we overrating or underrating or properly rating the Jokic-Luka run that we're having right now? This is tough for me because I do want to really thoroughly rebuke Van for his views on Jokic. He's actually backed by one justin verrier in his views uh my group chat running mate and ringer nba editor and i used to be that guy uh i remember when yokich first started being started sort of mattering and like certain people on Twitter, let's face it, white writers and

bloggers were like really picking this dude up and it would get on my nerves. And I was just like, this is ridiculous. Right. And I would derisively call him Jochich. I refuse to say his name right. I'm like, I'm not going to say this guy's name right until he matters. And then, you know, just slowly but surely, I just became a believer. Like, it's not just one. The success is just theirs. There's the production. There's the team success, which hasn't materialized always in the playoffs. But, you know, whatever.

We can get into that. But just watch the guy play. Just check the tape. He's incredible. He's unstoppable. He's the most unselfish superstar since I don't even know who. Probably Magic Johnson, right, if we're being honest. And I'm fully bought in now. Like, I used to be on the Van side of things where I thought it was a little overblown. I'm to the point where I think he's underrated, if we're being honest. Like, that's where I'm at with Jokic, honestly. That's where I'm at too. Van, your rebuttal.

So I wasn't talking about Jokic being on the all-time fun team. That had nothing to do with it. He is on the all-time fun team. He's an amazing player to watch. There seems like sometimes there are nights that there's nothing that you can do. What I was specifically reacting to was Jokic is on the bird magic level, which is what you said to me when we were talking about this. Jokic on the bird magic level. There.

Look, if a game, a sport is about accomplishments, it's about winning things. It's about accomplishing different things. That's what sports are about. It's like it's about accomplishments. It's about winning things. It's about accomplishing different things. That's what sports are about. It's competitive accomplishments. There's just no way. I'm sorry. Everything that you guys are saying about Jokic's game is true. Super unselfish.

Transcendent passer. Impossible to defend one-on-one. Basketball IQ through the roof. All of those things. Greatness. We are not near to the point where you can compare him to Magic or Bird. I just don't understand how you could do that. So here's where we had a disconnect.

I think you reacted so violently to Magic and Bird being thrown into the same sentence with somebody. You didn't even weigh the context, which is what i was telling you was he's the most fun player for me since magic and bird with how unselfish he is offensively i like watching him the most i like his effect on the team and he reminds me of those guys and you just you just saw you were like one of those like villains in an action movie that you just like you your eyes blazed over and you just started shooting people you in this case like me to read the text messages read it read it read it read the text okay i'm not gonna read some of this

don't read all of them but read some yeah i'm not gonna read all of it it's like it's like yokage is it says uh we're talking about yokageic. I'm like, Jokic is really fun to watch, but there's a mirage factor. I said that. Yeah. I said that there's a mirage factor. Right? And you, and you, and the comeback was Jokic is on the bird magic level. And then after that, he's all time incredible.

He's an all timer. I understand. I stand by it. Yeah. He's on the bird magic level? To watch day in, day out. To watch day in, day out. Yes. What, what,

what level are we talking? The bird magic level, as in two of the most important athletes to ever grace the face of the earth. Yeah, fair. And here's the thing. I the thing i think what's what's happening right now and i'm gonna make another comparison that's gonna drive van up a wall

is this feels to me like lebron before the accomplishments people were putting him up with jordan with bird with magic and people like ah this guy doesn't even do it in the playoffs he hasn't even accomplished anything blah blah, blah, blah. Let alone he's putting up Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain seasons without the championship. But people are like, ah, this is crazy. You can't compare this guy to the greats. He hasn't won championships.

I really feel like we are at that point right now with Jokic where he's doing it. He has not had the team success. I would argue he's had the playoff success individually. He's not a guy like some of his contemporaries, Joel Embiid, who plays way worse when the playoffs happen. James Harden, who plays way worse when the playoffs happen. This guy plays at an MVP level in regular season.

Playoffs come, he's even better. He's scoring more points, getting more assists, even more efficient. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. He's not getting more assists in the playoffs. His assist numbers go down in the playoffs. Because he's had bad teammates in the playoffs. But we got to mention the bubble. Bubble playoffs have to be mentioned, though.

They win two seven-game series in a row, including the seventh game against the Clippers. He beats Utah in round one and then goes against the AD LeBron, both healthy at the same time, both just basically on a 10 week sprint to the title. And they had a better team. And then Jamal Murray gets hurt before the next playoffs. He doesn't have Jamal Murray for either of the next two playoffs,

which was his best guy. Yeah. And so I, I really think it's unfair. LeBron James took Zildjianos, Elgascos, and Williams to the finals. You guys, it's like Dirk Nowitzki won a championship

with Deshaun Stevenson and Jason Terry and Tyson Chandler. I could league, but yeah. Yes, less talented league. Less talented league, yeah, fine. So what you guys are doing right now is you're moving the goalposts of greatness for a player that you like, and that's fine.

Looking at Jokic and saying pass for pass, Jokic is as good a passer as Magic Johnson, that's an opinion somebody could have. I do not think that that's true. I personally think that Magic Johnson was an amazingly gifted, and we're talking about a guy, Magic Johnson, who averaged 12 assists a game in the playoffs. 12.

We're talking about Magic Johnson, and you're looking at him. I think Magic Johnson was a dynamic passer in transition, a dynamic passer in the half court, a dynamic wherever the ball was. He was one of the most sublime creative players that's ever lived. If you guys think Jokic is on that level, that's fine. But to say that he's all time with those guys when he doesn't have near about the accomplishment, for me, I start to lose track of what it is that we're talking about when we're talking about sports. I think this is fair. And I think even though you whipped a can

of settle down juice at me, I did need a sip. And I think I took a sip and you're right. When we bring in Bird of Magic, there should be more caution. This is the first take culture that we've all created where everything is hyperbole. Everything's the greatest dunk anyone's ever had.

Everyone's the biggest quarterback bust we've ever seen. And we have no context with the history. I agree. I should have been a little more careful with the Bird of Magic thing. But W have been a little more careful with the bird of magic thing, but was for just talking regular season impact day to day, watching somebody pull the best out of their teammates and just be a fucking problem.

You, these two Sacramento games, the last two, one game, they, they basically wouldn't let him score last night. They just changed their strategy completely. And they're like,

you know what? Knock yourself out, score as many as you can. We're going to try to take away your says and he scored 40 but it actually worked they end up losing down the stretch but he didn't have Jamal Murray and have Aaron Gordon but it does remind me of the bird magic thing where night to night these teams are going into it going all right he's going to kill us somehow what are we willing to have him kill us with? It's a little like Mahomes, actually,

where when the football team, especially in the playoffs, they're like, all right, we're not going to let you throw deep. We're just taking that away. Run the ball. Run five yards of carry. We're going to give it to you. I do think Joker's on that level.

That's fair, right, Was? Yeah, I think that's fair in another sense. Like if somebody says Pat Mahomes is on the level of Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Dan Marino, Joe Montana, like, whoever the greats were from when I grew up playing Madden and watching Madden call games, yeah, I agree. Yeah, he's just as good as every single dude I've ever seen play the position. Patrick Mahomes is, I'm saying. And so to say that Jokic... He won the Super Bowl. He did? Okay. He won two Super Bowls.

He's been to two Super Bowls. Won a Super Bowl. Yeah. All of that stuff. It's a team accomplishment though, man. It's a team accomplishment. I'm just saying the level of play matters. Like, watching this guy play, I can say

objectively that he's one of the greatest I've ever seen play. That's just easy. Do you know what, Bill? You know what Bill just left out in the back-to-backs against the Kings? Jokic didn't have Jamal Murray and Michael Poirier Jr. in the second game, right? The Kings didn't have

Sabonis in the first one. Eric Gordon in game, right? The Kings didn't have Sabonis in the first one. Eric Gordon in the second game. The Kings didn't have Sabonis in the first one. When Sabonis came back in the second game, the Kings didn't have to double or they refused to double. They refused to double. Jokic still got his points, but they had Sabonis back. They won the game.

That's a huge... So even in that little thing that we're talking about, right? Like in that thing, Yoke is didn't have all of his guys. Yoke is lost. No, the Kings didn't have all of their guys in the first game and they, they lost.

Right. And so I'm not saying anything about, but even when you compare him to Patrick, my homes, you feel like that's a good comparison, but it's not because my homes, because the chiefs were hitting their heads on the ceiling. You feel like that's a good comparison, but it's not. Because Mahomes won the Super Bowl. Because the Chiefs were hitting their heads on the ceiling

when they had Alex Smith as their quarterback. There was a level they couldn't reach. Mahomes changed that for the Chiefs. And then they went to two Super Bowls, along with all the other things that he's doing. I want to ask Bill a question. Ben's a rings guy. Rings with a Z. I'm not a rings guy at all.

I'm not a rings guy, but what I'm saying, when all things are equal, of course the success of your team matters, right? It does. So, Bill, on your basketball pyramid, you have Bill Russell second. Why? Well, he was the best. His team's always won.

They won over and over again in every situation. And a lot of... Wait a minute. Huh? No, but... Will Chamberlain averaged 30 points a game.

Yeah, but you wouldn't say that about... But you wouldn't say that about some of the guys that Russell... Wait, wait, hold on. Stop. Who did Bill Russell

have with him? I mean, who did Will Chamberlain have with him? I debunked this. I debunked this argument. The last six years of their career, Will had better support to cast than Russell did. It's debunked. That is debunked. Also, Van, I think you underrate the ability to actually

measure the impact, the real impact that Bill Russell was having on these games like they were great because of his greatness and so therefore they won right it like all the quotes from back then or the other nobody else on his team gets that level of credit for their winning like nobody calls all those other guys the greatest winners ever even though they got seven six rings along the way nobody would say that and nobody would be like oh such and such is better than dr j because they got the rings i am acutely

aware of that but what i'm saying is that in other cases it's being discounted i'm aware of when you when you talk about how good the lakers were, right? Yeah. Everybody was saying, hey, Van, the Lakers had multiple Hall of Famers on their team. By the way, every team that the Lakers played and beat also had multiple Hall of Famers. By the way, Lakers, garbage conference in the 80s, just for the record. Way weaker conference. Way weaker.

Go look, go look. Whatever. Basketball reference, don't lie. Like, whatever. So the Lakers, do the Lakers, is Magic Johnson not the difference maker on all of those teams? Is Magic Johnson not the reason why those teams are...

Kareem, I would say Kareem in 80 and 82, and then it becomes Magic. So when I'm saying in that particular case, it's the exact same thing. So at some point, what we're saying is, the reason why I brought up Bill Russell, is because being a difference maker, because Will Chamberlain statistically has better career statistics than Bill Russell. But at some point, how you impact the actual game against the peers in the league that you're

playing with at the time that you're playing with at the time that you're playing with them has to be considered when we're talking about comparative greatness not when we're talking about how great you are sure you can be incredibly great steve nash is great he's like fantastic charles barkley is great ewing is great like Malone is great these guys are great players all of these guys are great but if we're talking about comparative greatness by your own metric bill what you do and how you affect games and how you affect winning games and championships that matters so I think out of all the guys you mentioned, the only one where it's unfair is Barkley, because I do think he was that guy in 93. And he just happens to go against the best player of all

time playing the best he's ever played. Who barely beats him with the team that was probably a tiny bit better than Barkley's team. But to me, it's like, but even though, and I've said this to Barkley on the pod, even though they lost that series, I still feel like Barkley weirdly wins that series. And I feel the same about Nash and that kind of that 05 to 2010 run. I don't know what more he could have done. Sometimes you have bad luck with

this stuff, you know, and the thing with Jokic is at some point he's going to have to have a moment or you just become James Harden. Or it's like, oh cool, James Harden, he put up all those stats, but what did he win? And that he's going to have to have a moment or you just become James Harden. Yeah. Or it's like, oh, cool, James Harden. He put up all those stats. But what did he win? And that's just going to be the first sentence.

I agree with all of that. I just think that Steph Curry and the Warriors won the championship last year. Right. And Steph Curry obviously was great in the process of doing so. But at the end of the day, people like Draymond had to play all-time great defense. Klay Thompson had to make big shots. There's only but so much a great player individually can do to win these games and then win these championships. I think Jokic is as impactful a player as anybody in the NBA right now. Somebody is going to win the championship, right?

Whatever that team is. I don't think there's going to be any player who is somehow way more productive and contributes more to winning than Jokic is, even if he ultimately doesn't end up with the chip. Like, that's just my opinion. Like, I understand you should have to you need to have rings to justify people putting you with the greatest of all times. I just think Jokic is going to be right there knocking on the door and eventually he'll get a ring or two and

Van will stop crying about this. I really don't think he's one of the greats. I'm not crying. I'm just saying that this is not what I hear when I hear people talk about Chris Paul. This is not what I hear when I hear people talk about Chris Paul. This is not what I hear when I hear people talk about Chris Paul. But so, so I'm not saying that Chris Paul's in Jokic's class, right? Jokic is a two-time MVP.

But what I'm saying is Chris Paul, who is a diminutive point guard, who every single team he goes to, he transforms the team into a winner. Yeah. Everywhere he goes, like literally everywhere he goes,, he transforms the team into a winner. Everywhere he goes. Literally everywhere he goes, Chris Paul transforms the team into a winner. But Chris Paul's inability to get over the hump and win a championship, it's like he's being held to a different standard than a two-time MVP. And he's even been to the finals.

He's been to the finals with the sons. He was just there. Like it's, I understand what you guys are saying. And I'm not saying that everything that you're saying about Yoke is, isn't true. It is true. Just like when James Harden was doing amazing things,

right? Just like when Kobe went, like, just like when Kobe averaged 40 points a game for like a whole month. And the Lakers were like a seven seat. You know what I mean? It's like all of that stuff, all of that stuff i'm not saying it but i'm saying if we're going to compare him to two of the best winners in the history or dope guys on that level at all i just think that at some point he's got to prove that you can build a championship formula

around him and when you guys talk about everything that he does to contribute to wins, it does. But that team lacks rim protection because they have a half of a DeAndre Jordan and then they have another guy who can't defend, who can't protect the rim. So they have a major,

major, major defense. He's a decent defender. I think he's an average defender. Yeah, I think he's turned into a decent guy. He's okay. He tries hard, but you're going to get baskets at the rim against the Nuggets. And that's

like a thing, right? No, of course. He's not without weaknesses. Of course the guy has weaknesses to his game. I would just say again to the chris paul point to james harden point when those guys were at their best i watched them play worse in the playoffs like i watched them play worse than they're capable of in the playoffs because say the same thing about yannis before the championship when he's bashing his head against

the um the toronto raptors with kawaii in them and he's just not his head against the Toronto Raptors with Kawhi in them. He's just not playing as well as we watched him play that whole regular season. People were like, yo, hold on. Do we need to stop giving this guy MVPs? He's playing worse when it matters. That's not the case with Jokic. He's not playing

worse when it matters. His team might not be up. It's not translating into team success. The last two years aren't fair because if you just took Pippen away from Jordan in 91 and 92, they probably don't win the title. I know. I know. I know. I'm swimming in

the Jordan Bowl for a second there. He's just saying, you take away anybody's second best teammate, they're not going to win the title. They're just not. It sounds like I'm hating. I love Jokic. I love to watch him.

I think he's a lot of fun. You can, if you guys want, shout out to Stat and Matt. We can go on all of the smoke two years ago and talk about how much I like Jokic. I love Jokic. Can we at least agree on this? What? I think he needs it this year more than any other player.

He's 27. This is the best team he's had. If you just go through all the stars. Now, somebody would say Embiid needs it too. I just don't think you can win a title if Embiid and Harden are your two guys. I don't trust Harden. I just don't. I just don't.

Just like with Brooklyn. Brooklyn's won 10 in a row. I don't trust Kyrie to not undermine this at some point over the next three months. Do you, Wes? We know how this is going to go. Or Ben Simmons. I don't trust either guy. You don't trust Kyrie. I get that. Kyrie's

a champion. Yeah, he is. I don't trust Kyrie. Look, there's a lot of reasons not to trust Kyrie oh my god there's a hold on

hold on there's a lot of reasons not to trust Kyrie a lot of reasons not to trust Kyrie I get it Kyrie made a

go ahead shot on the road game seven are we doing this NBA finals we're making Kyrie

responsible we're making Kyrie responsible for that championship. I'm not making. Come on, man. Whoa, whoa, whoa. They don't win that championship without him. Okay. He's not the most responsible person. That was LeBron.

Go on, man. What are we doing? He stuck up the joint for two games in that series. Stop it. They don't win that championship without him. What are you talking about? They absolutely don't. Just real quick. Real quick. He did make the shot. I hate to say it, but he series. Stop it. They don't win that championship without him. What are you talking about? Just real quick. Real quick.

He did make the shot. I hate to say it, but he did. Real quick. Real quick. Real quick. Do they win that championship without Kyrie Irving? Probably not. They probably don't win the championship without Richard Jefferson either. They had the bench Kevin Love at points. That's a good counter. What are we doing? J.R. Swish.

J.R. Swish made a bunch of big buckets. He had moments in game seven. So if we look at Kyrie's numbers from that series, you're going to tell me they look like trash. From game three on, he was excellent. Yes. Okay. But the first two games do count and matter.

Yeah. I mean, right. Just like I'm saying. Just like winning games in the playoffs matters i'm saying you guys you can't trust kairi kairi has all types of issues everybody understands that but i'm just letting y'all know that you're talking about a guy that made a gigantic pressure shot and showed his ass in the final steve kerr did that a few times too nobody would ever give him some lion's

share credit. What I would say is Kyrie is on the, you know, he's on the second tier level. He'll be part of why somebody may or may not win a championship. He's not going to be the engine. Okay? He's going to be, you know, you can't have a flat tire. I had to watch it.

Exactly. Disaster. Yes, Kyrie played a major role in the championship, as have other good to great players in the past. All I'm saying about Jokic is, like, this guy plays incredible. I think there will be people like Steph Curry, like Luka, who can exploit what his weaknesses are in a playoff matchup. But I think these are highly special, specialized players. Most people are not going to be able to deal with this guy.

They're not going to be able to exploit the dude's weaknesses, and he's going to just fillet people on offense. I mean, at this point, like, again, the end of games, when the best defenses in the NBA are trying to stop this guy, they don't know what to do. Clutch situation, I'm watching me. Clutch basket after clutch basket. Clutch pass.

Like, no matter what the moment is, I remember Draymond Green last year. They know what they're going up against. They know Jokic has to do everything. Draymond's like, yo, dude, this dude is, he's on another planet. This is crazy how good this guy is. And Draymond gives nobody any credit.

And so, like, I don't know I hate being the the sort of captain of the you know the Jokic bandwagon I just think that much of the guy first of all I'm the captain oh yes the co-captain there's a lot of co-captains for the Jokic bandwagon oh no people love Jokic oh go ahead go ahead, Bill. Go ahead. Well, I was just going to say, I think the key point here, you mentioned the Curry last year was 2022. It's kind of a flawed Warriors team, but they were able to throw. They got better as that, especially that last series came along.

But the key in that whole series was game four and Curry just levitates above everybody and has that moment, right? Same thing with Giannis in that Sun series, which came down to a couple of plays those last couple of games. But Giannis, especially in game six, he just levitates over everybody. And that's kind of the last stage. Every great player did it.

And that's what I want to see from Jokic. And that's why, you know, I think these playoffs are going to be great. We don't really have a great West team. We have Boston and Milwaukee in the East. I'm not even sure what those teams are going to be great. We don't really have a great West team. We have Boston and Milwaukee in the East. I'm not even sure what those teams are going to look like two months from now. I do think the trade deadlines can be important. But in the Jokic case, it is set up for him to have one of those kind of runs. The team's good enough.

They'll probably make one trade. I'm sure we won't see DeAndre Jordan in the playoffs. I'm sure we'll see somebody like Pirtle or whoever. But the runway is there. And the fact that even that LeBron and AD are out, you don't have to see them in a round one. Just having to go bully ball

against those guys. LeVayne, where do you stand on Luka before we go? Love Luka. Love Luka, love Jokic. Just, it's, it's, it's the same thing. Why were you retweeting James Harden?

50, 10, 10, triple, double stats. Like somebody was pointing out what, what was going on there? A couple of years ago,

I asked you about the young players in the league. And what would you take? You say, you say you take Luca over everyone. Right. I think I, I think I still might. You'd take Luka over Jason Tatum right now?

Yeah. Luka's 23. He's two years younger than Tatum. I think Tatum turns 25 this year. So Tatum's 25. So to me, look, love Luka. I don't see that much difference between Luka and James Hart. Well, style-wise, it's definitely a little similar.

I don't see much difference between Luka and James Hart. Well, there's one difference, though. There's one crucial difference, though. I see an incredibly high usage player who is insanely ball-dominant with a questionable shot shot selection lucas james is actually a better shooter than luca right um not quite the passer but still i don't know they might be equal as passers and i see i see a guy who and a guy who doesn't play defense who like who's a defensive liability i see the same thing and when james was doing what

he was doing it was historic and he did it like night after night after night 50 say blah blah blah did i enjoy watching it no but i don't particularly enjoy watching luca play watching somebody dominate the ball the entire time and watch you know fin Finney Smith and Hardaway like begging for the, hey, I'm spotting up, Luka. Give it to me. Give it to me, Luka. You know what my rule on this is? If the over-under is two and a half on teammates that you have when you

have the ball that are just standing in place, I'm probably not going to enjoy your offense that much. Also, like, to be honest, and the thing is, Luka's game is not as heavily dependent as James' was on these fake-ass fouls. Let's face it.

In the playoffs, the refs call it tighter. Lucas' game still translates to the playoffs because he's not, he's not depending on this,

like, ticky-tack, regular season, hooking people's arm, BS, and so his game actually travels. That's my thing

with James that I will say again. He always plays worse in the playoffs. Luka's going up against Kawhi, Paul George. He's cooking people. He's going nuts against some of the best perimeter defenders in the league and still putting up his numbers, still playing efficiency. His team advancing against teams that you would argue that they shouldn't have beat.

You know, even as he misses games and all that. The Suns are a team that they definitely shouldn't have beat. You know, even as he misses games and all that. The Suns are a team that they definitely shouldn't have beat. You know what I mean? The entire time James was doing what he was doing, the Warriors were cooking. So he did not have a good team to go up against. He had an all-time great dominant team. Until Durant got hurt in 2019.

They lost that one. And even in 2018, when he bricked all those threes in Game 7. I would argue, though, that even without Kevin Durant, those Warriors teams put together were still better than the teams that he's had. Rockets than the teams that Houston had. Rockets were favored in that game six. The difference between Luka and Harden is this. Luka's six foot eight, and when he needs to, he can get physical and he can bully people

and he has different options. Harden was basically just doing the same thing over and over again. It was incredibly successful, but it did feel like in a seven-game series teams could get used to it, and I think it was a real problem for them. Dallas at least can get a little more malleable, and they could be like, all right, we'll put Luka here. We'll put him there, and they can move him around a little bit.

I can't wait for these playoffs. Fane, who's going to win the title? I have no clue. I really don't know. Waz, do you know who's going to win the title? I came into the season, I picked the Nuggets. I really don't know. Waz, do you know who's going to win the title? Yeah. I came into the season, I picked the Nuggets. I just think they have the most incredible... You did?

Yeah. I had Nuggets Bucks. That was my finalist. I just think they have the best unit in the NBA, which is their offense. But watching them this year, their defense is scaring me. I now believe that the Celtics will win the championship

so long as they don't have to play the Warriors. Oh, my God. That is my belief. If the Warriors, because the Warriors, their path is ridiculous right now, super muddy to get back to the championship. So long as they don't have to play Golden State, I think Boston's going to win the championship.

Right. You think the Nuggets will make the finals? Yeah, I do. I do. Yeah, we don't know what the trades are, but I think the Nuggets are the safest bet because I think they can get the one seed. I think they're better than New Orleans. The one seed's going to be big for do. Yeah, we don't know what the trades are, but I think the Nuggets are the safest bet because I think they can get the one seed. I think they're better than New Orleans.

The one seed's going to be big for them. Yeah. Obviously, I think Golden State is a better team when they're right, but who knows when or if or how Golden State gets right. And I think Devils is clearly the second best team in the conference, and they have way less issues than everybody else, and so they're going to advance. I will say this,

watching Zion last night when he scored the 14th straight, Zion hits these moments in some of these games where you do wonder like, oh shit, what if this happened in the playoffs? What if you're down three, two in a series and it's like a two point game with eight minutes left and he starts doing this, like you're going home.

So I don't know. And they have trades to make too. know. At least he's playing harder than he did, which I think on both ends. All right, Van, good to see you. Woo! See you guys in the comments. Bye-bye. Go Tigers! Looking to get more out of this NFL season?

Well, now is the perfect time to download FanDuel, America's number one sportsbook. New customers get a no-sweat first bet up to $1,000. That's free bets back if the first bet doesn't win. Just download the FanDuel sportsbook app. It's safe, secure, super easy to use. Then you can bet on everything from the money line to touchdown scores to over-under yards

to some of the crazy bets that we did a million-dollar picks this week, including one of my favorites, a first half to win. Same team wins the game, which you get some juicy odds for a team. I don't know, like maybe Carolina. We'll talk about them later. FanDuel even lets you combine your bets

for a chance at a bigger payout with the same game parlay. FanDuel also now live in Maryland. Marylanders, make sure you get in on the action. Also great offers. Boost just for you. Don't miss the chance to get your no sweat first bet up to $1,000 of free bets when you join FanDuel with promo code BS. Make every moment more with FanDuel, an official

sports betting partner of the NFL. You must be 21 plus in select states. First online, real money wager only. Refund issued is now withdrawable. Free bets that expire in 14 days. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. You know me, I can't go a day without sports. I really can't. And now Monday nights are all about hockey. That's right. There's a new exclusive home for streaming Monday night NHL hockey.

And it's on Prime. All season long, watch Prime Monday night hockey deliver unreal plays, the biggest goals, can't miss moments. Matthews, McDavid, Crosby, the NHL's best. They're all on Prime. Prime Monday Night Hockey. It's on Monday.

It's on Prime. All right. We got rid of Van. He's going to burn a Jokic jersey while he's still here. We're going to do a little wobbling for Wemby. A little check-in. Maybe we'll, we'll do this more than once.

It is December 29th. We're basically less than four months to the end of the season. Now we have not seen a trade yet. And we have a couple of teams that have clearly thrown their hat into the Wemby sweepstakes and a couple other teams that are definitely like their suitcases are packed, but they haven't called the Uber driver yet. And what we're going to do is go backwards with these teams and wonder who is going to make the self-sabotage trade? Who's going to start?

Because part of this is you want to trade guys, not only to get future assets, but to hurt your team. It's the self-sabotage move. It's smart. It's what Detroit, for instance, who is 9-28, they have the worst record in the league. They have Bojan Bogdanovic on their team. Got to get him off, right? They have a nice contract, 19-20, 20-19 for this year, the next three.

Get him out of there because he might end up being the difference between 14% ping pong balls or 10 was, and this is the key to this part of the season. A, the self-sabotage. B, who has the assets to go get some of these guys? So we'll start with Detroit Bogdanovich. That's a guy that can, we know he can play in a playoff series, play in crunch time. What if you're Brooklyn? You have those two Philly firsts from, I think you have two Philly firsts from the Simmons-Hardin trade still.

Joe Harris and those two firsts. Is that enough for Bogdanovich? Do you do that if you're Brooklyn? You know, he's a clear upgrade from Joe Harris in the sense that he actually plays. He actually is available. And so that's kind of been the secret sauce to Brooklyn's turnaround is one, horrible competition. But two, just getting dudes back at all has helped them immensely.

And so, yeah, I think Brooklyn should definitely be trying to get that because they need warm bodies. I am officially at the I'm scared of Brooklyn point of the season and rooting for Kyrie to give a dumb press conference and sabotage everything that's going on. They're playing hard.

They're playing defense. They like their coach. It's the best we've seen Durant play in three to four years. And Kyrie seems pretty locked in and they're just they're a problem

because they know like, all right, we have these two scor scores. Simmons is better than I expected. I thought he was kind of a cross off. Even just the fact that he's competent again, I think is a huge win for them. And I don't know, they're not that far out of, it's like Boston, Milwaukee. I don't feel, I feel like they can hang with either of those teams in this, in a series if they're playing defense, but they need to make one more move i think yeah they need they need another guy absolutely that that can do stuff both with the ball and complements what they're trying to do with kairi and kd centric pick and rolls meaning like you know stretches the floor is a good cutter

a good screen setter bogey's not terrible at setting screens like he compliments what the two main guys are gonna do and like you said the question was never really do these guys have talent it's like can they play as a basket a functional basketball team right like who who play for one another who play hard who execute at a high level in um high leverage situations this was never a question of talent it's just like will these guys get their heads screwed on right and their coach let's face it is just more competent than steve nash's um and you know i love steve nash as much as anybody but jacques vaughn has just been better at this job and you know they've borne the fruits. The soft schedule helps, but

they figured some things out in the midst of that. TJ Warren coming back has been huge. He dropped like 25 the other night. So yeah, I think it's nice what they're doing, but they do need another guy in the rotation. Well, that's the case for them not doing anything is TJ Warren's look really good. I've always liked

TJ Warren. I just wasn't sure if he was going to be healthy again. I got to admit defeat on good. I've always liked TJ Warren. I just wasn't sure if he was going to be healthy again. I got to admit defeat on Nash. I think, you know, he prioritized the offense. That's how he sees stuff. And he didn't prioritize the defense. That was one of the reasons, you know, for instance, the Celtics swept them.

And when things are a little disheveled, the defense, if you don't have it, can be the first thing that just blows up and looks terrible. They're playing defense. A couple other Bogdanovich teams. I don't know if Miami wants to risk the future or whether they think they're in this or not. And maybe with Jimmy Butler, you always have to feel like you are. But they have a little package that we'll mention for a couple of teams. Duncan Robinson has got three years after this one. The contract's bad. It's not too bad, especially the cap's going to go way up.

Nikoli Jovic is good. Have you seen him? Yeah. I think he's a legitimate, can be the anchor of a trade for a real guy if they want to do that. And then they also, they had the ability to trade their first this year. They could trade their first in 27. So they can put some stuff together.

My question is, is their team good enough to even think about, like, is Bogdanovich going to change their destiny? I would say no. It's not. And I feel like they see themselves as being able to develop Bogdanovich type of players. Like Yobich? Yeah.

And, you know, Caleb Martin, those kind of guys, these ancillary guys. Duncan Robinson back when he could get the splinters out of his ass and actually play in a game uh but like you know they they pride themselves on inventing role players out of whole like josh richardson has a career because of this miami stuff right uh and so it doesn't feel like they would use their chips to get a bogey type, but I don't know that the real live difference makers are available for them. Well, there's one coming later that we'll do. So there's two other words.

Memphis can do a Danny Green, Zaire Williams contract. If I were them, I'm holding my chips for a bigger deal. The one that makes sense to me, the Dallas Mavericks, Josh Green, who I think has turned himself into a trade asset this year. They got the Bertans contract, which every year becomes less bad. I think there's this year plus two more. And they can trade their 2026 or 27 first. And that's right around the price for somebody like Bogdanovich in the market. I don't see him going for like two firsts, anything like that. And that's a guy that would

be a really fun fit with Luka and with that whole team. Gives them a little bit of a little play making extra when Luka's on the bench, stuff like that. I think that's my favorite of all of these, Bogdanovich to Dallas. Yes or no for you? I mean, I'm slightly a yes in the sense that he definitely supercharges what Luka's doing, where, like, you can't even – sometimes teams, for instance, when Denver played them the other night, there were times where they were like, okay, we're going to have a rover against these Luka pick and rolls rolls and we're going to help off of Finney Smith. We're going to help off of Tim Hardaway Jr. at times. We're going to send allocate extra resources, slough off in order to deal with what Luka is doing and pick and roll.

You can't do that with Bogdanovich. Like he's just's just on a different planet when it comes to quality of shooting. Of course, there's that playmaking component that he brings because I think he's still underrated as a guy who has on-ball juice. However, I think they should be saving their bullets for a person who can soak up possessions, like, in a meaningful way. Not in a secondary spencer dinwiddie type of guy they need somebody who can share possessions with luca where he's not doing this 45 usage like jaylen brunson

can they get it back i don't know why i wasn't expecting you to say that but i wasn't but yeah somebody like jayalen Brunson, but maybe in their dreams, somebody better than that, right? Maybe they can go out and get Brad Beal, who finally feels like it's okay to leave DC. They're not going to have enough. I got a Brad Beal team later. I don't think they have enough

to get Brad Beal. But that's what they're probably dreaming about, though, you know? I said this to our guy, Michael Pina, a few weeks ago when the kairi thing he was at rock bottom from a stock standpoint and i was like why wouldn't dallas go for kairi right now like take the swing it's just like dean witty and dwight powell's expiring and just and michael to his credit was just like nope i'm out i'm not doing that not messing with kairi i got luca yeah um yeah but i do think they need to do like a swing on that level.

I think the Kyrie ship has sailed for a trade like that because he's rebuilt some of his value. And he probably has more value to Brooklyn than any other team because KD, for whatever reason, loves playing basketball with him. Yeah. And can bring out the best in him. The reason why Kyrie makes sense because of his role in 2016

was the perfect one. It's the sense that LeBron is the point guard. He's the one that drives the offense, but every now and again for four straight possessions, he would just be like, Kyrie, here's the ball. Go do whatever the hell you want to do. He's like a rock guitarist. Like, hey, play a solo for

a minute. Go nuts. Next team is Houston at 10 and 24. And they don't really have anything. It's going to be hard for them to sabotage themselves. It's really just Eric Gordon. Whatever. And they're going to be in the bottom four. I think they're

fine. They got the Eric Gordon trade chip. He's 19 and a half this year. Proven three-point shooter and spacer. Not having the greatest year. He's playing 30 a half this year. Proven three-point shooter and spacer. Not having the greatest year. He's like playing 30 minutes a game. 11.5 points. 35% from three.

That could be like a last second Josh Green and Bertans for Gordon type thing. Or he could be a buyout guy, which I think is an important thing to remember with some of these guys. They might just buy him out in February and then he goes to the highest bidder. Charlotte's another one that I couldn't figure out what they do. They got Rozier, who I think is a guy who could be in a playoff series, but he's at 21 and a half, 23.2 and 24.9. It's a pretty big,

big shoot to take on there for a third guard for any really good team. They got Hayward at 30 and 31.5. I'm just not going near him if I'm a potential playoff team. I don't trust that he can stay on the floor. Oubre at 12.6 and Plumlee at 9.8. The only one I could think for them is if

LeBron was doing his whole thing last night. Oh my God, this isn't what I wanted to do out of basketball. And if the Hornets were just said, hey Lakers, we'll give you Hayward, Rozier, Plumlee, and Kelly

Oubre. You can have all four guys. You give us back Westbrook and Beverly and Wynn and Gabriel and give us your 27 first top two protected. and winning Gabriel and give us your 27 first top, top two protected. And that's it.

And now you're sabotaging yourself. You're grabbing that Lakers. God knows who's going to be on their team way down the road. The Lakers, maybe it's top one protected, like what the Celtics did with the Spurs. And it's just like, here's everybody.

And then now you're in a full deep, deep, deep tank. Unless Westbrook just averages 40 a game and screws it up for you. Yeah, I don't. I think two things with Charlotte. One, I think they're plenty bad to already screw themselves into not mattering. But I think what this does is it stops the charade of we're good. We're chasing something. Right.

And it, and it clarifies where they're at as far as their rebuild. And we're trying to get when Benyama and we're completely rebuilding and we're not pretending that we're going to be some competent playoff level type of team. We're still developing the mellow seeing what kind of guy he is before we hand him some massive extension uh they're going to bring back miles bridges that's happening from all the people that

i've spoke to that are pretty close to the situation he's coming back like the parameters under which like what the deal will be structured or whatever i don't know but he's going to be a charlotte hornet in the future so it's just like part of it is he's going to get suspended for X number of games. And they'd rather have that happen this year when they suck. Yeah, 100 percent. And so I think it's the unseemliest NBA story right now. It's bad. It's bad.

Yeah. Like, obviously, the guy should be punished officially by the league. I think this unofficial suspension should carry on for the whole year that's just my opinion and then next year he can start serving out his quote-unquote real suspension but yeah that's neither here nor there but they're gonna continue on with him they're gonna try to get the number one pick and they got lamello and then yeah just be a rebuilding team all right right, quick question. Turn the TikTok camera on, Kyle. If you're the Lakers, is this just a sunk cost? You don't know when AD is coming back. He's out at least four more weeks, probably six.

Best case scenario, you might be the 10th seed in the plan. You'd have to win two one-and-done games in a row on the road. You have no idea who's whatever. And then you're going to go against Denver in a 1-8 matchup or whoever. And you're going to sacrifice a 2027 first just because LeBron, you feel bad because you signed him. That's not good business.

I'm sorry. It's just not. To me, the Lakers need to tell LeBron to eat his medicine. At the end of the day... Yeah, you extended with us. You signed the extension. Sorry, buddy. you extended with us. You signed the extension. Sorry, buddy. You extended with us. That's how it works out.

One, at the end of the day, this roster is such that AD has to play at an MVP level and LeBron at an all-star level for them to play 500 ball. So, like, let us put together a team where that's not the case. And we can only do that by taking our medicine this year, opening up a lot of cap

room in the summer and improving this roster with the help that these guys need like this well that's that's the nice version of it the other version is just to be like hey dude you told us to trade all our shit for davis like you wanted that okay you did And we won the title. Davis is one thing. They still had a championship level squad, right? Like they won. They went 21 and seven. Danny Green and the number one pick for Schroeder. Yeah. So Westbrook trade.

Exactly. All of your wing debt being traded away and letting Caruso walk out the door so that you could bring in Russell Westbrook. I think it's a sunk cost. I think you sunk cost it. Just eat it. San Antonio is a fun self-sabotage team

because they have some guys I'd want. Doug McDermott. 13.8, 13.8. Last five years was 42% from three. Pretty sure he could be in a playoff series.

Theoretically. Theoretically. Would you like to see him onwaukee instead of grace and alan so yes i yes i would but the thing about milwaukee you always got to be careful of it's like are they ever really willing to take on salary, especially salary that goes on into the future. Like they've spent, I don't want to call them cheap because they've spent enough, but I'm always wary about like their salary situation when you say this guy has, you know,

a year after this left on his deal. Well, Allen and Bo Champ, that does it. That could be for San Antonio and then they get rid of McDermott. Also, Cleveland, if they wanted to give up on Isaac Okoro, and they probably don't, but they could put him with Winders expiring and do that. I think McDermott is also a possible two-year buyout guy, which doesn't really happen that often, but you could see them where they buy him out for maybe, I don't know, 13 of the 20, 25, 27 that he's got left. Somebody signs him for four for the rest of the year. The next year he's a free agent again, he makes some money

back. So who knows? They also have Josh Richardson, who I think is a buyout guy. Purtle's the big one. He's only at 9.4. And it's somebody that Denver actually needs. And Denver has a trade exception of 9.7 from the Monty Morris trade that he actually fits in, which is amazing for them. So they could just get Purtle. They took Peyton Watson, the 30th pick. Maybe they throw him in. I like Zeke Nagy. I don't know if I would trade him, but if that's a deal breaker to get Purtle, I would do it. As long as we're not trading Christian Brown, I don't really care.

Are you on the bandwagon? I'm in too. I like that dude. He's really scrappy. I got Kyle Manzen on him too. I think he bought the bandwagon. So we're just in the backseat. I was actually texting with him about this kid. What I liked was he was taking pride in guarding john moran yeah right like he was not to say that he did some amazing job but he understood that

this is my number one priority is trying to stay in front of this dude which it's crazy but a lot of dudes don't understand this like you know it's a really important job it's not glamorous you you know your buddies are not going to text you after the game like they would if you drop 15 points because you splash five threes but him taking that that role and taking that seriously as young as he is yeah just don't get rid of Christian Brown, please. I think Perto ends up on Denver. Orlando is 13 and 23. So that's our bottom five right now. Detroit, 9 and 28.

Charlotte, 9 and 26. Houston, 10 and 24. San Antonio, 11 and 23. Those are the worst four. Orlando's in a weird spot because they're actually talented. And they can throw some haymakers from time to time and they have two awesome forwards that I love watching. And then

this Bull Bull thing happened out of nowhere. And they might just be good being the fifth worst team and actually winning some games. They don't really have a self-sabotage trade. Terrence Ross, I think, probably had more stuff two years ago for chips. They don't need to self-sabotage trade i don't terrence ross i think probably had more uh stuff two years ago for yeah and they don't need to self-sabotage because while they are talented they're very

young and they're going to do plenty of losing without the help like to me those five teams orlando san antonio houston charlotte detroit they can stand pat and stink to join up right it's who orlando i'd be a little or I'd be a little worried about Orlando because I do think like because we're about to do Washington. Washington could just say, fuck it, and all of a sudden be really

bad and lose, you know, 20 of their next 25. And that's what they have to worry about, I think, is somebody out batting them. Let's talk about Washington. They're 15 and 21. Got a little momentum.

House, who you know. Oh, boy. He's talking about, well, now that Wright's back, we're five and one. Wright was missing peace. They have Beal for 15 for 251. I'm sorry, for five for 251.

Poor Zingas. I'm not sure anyone wants him. They got Will Barton is expiring 14.4. Kuzma is the big one. I think Kuzma has real value. It's definitely like a juicy first. It might even be a juicy first and then one other pick that belongs to like Milwaukee

or somebody who's good. And it's like, we got two firsts. It's like, yeah, you got one and a half. There's a Miami trade, that same trade we mentioned for Bogdanovich. Kuzma and Taj Gibson for Duncan Robinson, Jovich and 23 first. I don't even know if that's quite enough,

but that's a fun trade for both teams. I would like it in Jovich. There's a Beal and Kuzma for Westbrook, Nunn, some firsts. I don't know who that makes sense for. You could get some three-team action if you want to get Phoenix involved with Jay Crowder. The thing with Kuzma is he's a free agent at the end of the year,

and he's not going to resign there. And I think you have to trade him, right? Yeah, they have to trade him. But I think Kuzma, to me, he's the perfect fit with every single contender. I think Memphis should be trying to get into this. You mentioned Phoenix. Phoenix, Milwaukee, instead of Dougie McBuggets, Kuzma should be the guy, especially with the Middleton injuries. I don't think they have enough, though.

They don't have the picks, I don't think. They don't with Drew Holiday and all of the stuff that they gave away for that. But every single contender should be trying to get Kyle Kuzma in their building because, one, the defensive versatility is not just that he guards wings. He can guard most fours. Right. You go small ball, you go bigger with him. Exactly.

And it's not just from his size. He wants to guard people, right? His shooting, again, he's not some dead-eye, but you can't completely leave him open he's an incredible cutter he's incredible in transition you know he every now and again he can give you some one-on-one stuff by the way he's been in big games he was in the finals he won a title i like i want to have a guy like that who's the guy though to me everybody should be calling people about you just mentioned he's got big games.

This isn't theoretical. This guy played in huge games, made big shots. So, yeah, Kuzma's the guy that people should be phoning about. That could be a fun Memphis one, too, but I do think there's a better Memphis guy that we'll get to in a second. Yeah, Golden State, another one. Right. The Bulls, we've already talked about the Bulls in the pod,

but if they want to sabotage DeRozan at 27-3, Vucevic at 22, Caruso, he's at 9 million this year. And same thing as Kuzma. He has real value. Kobe White, if they wanted to get, I don't know, 7.4, but if they wanted to add him to any trade, they're 15 and 19. My guess is they'll probably limp along and probably decide a month from now. Yeah, or wait till the offseason. But I don't think they'll wait till February. Toronto becomes really interesting. At 15 and 19 with a very aggressive GM who won a title a couple years ago and has fuck you power, right?

And he might just be like, I don't really like this team. It's time to rebuild. I'm very jealous of what Danny Ainge just did in Utah. I want my version of that. He's got Ananobi at 17.4, who everybody in the league has been after for like a year. Makes a lot of sense in Memphis.

Could make a lot of sense in Memphis. Could make a lot of sense in Golden State. Phoenix. If Phoenix, I guess Cam Johnson would have to be in that trade. But you go down the line. Portland is another one. We know they're wanting him. If there's a little shade and sharp accent. Yeah.

Yeah. Be careful about trading him. Hey, listen. Be careful. I'm really into, listen. Yeah. Be careful. I'm really into Shaden Sharp. Me too. Well, I'll see you at the meeting on Wednesday when we just watch his YouTube clips.

The thing about Toronto, though, it's become one of these, like, every single year they have the option of doing this, and every single year they opt into competitiveness. Yeah. So I just, yeah, Siakakam he should be out there you know if they're really serious about their rebuild siakam should be number one off the board he's their best player easily clearly that could that could be another memphis guy another yeah another memphis

guy all over the place people want a siakam? Defensive versatility on the wing and can guard fours. He's shown this year that he's just a legitimate NBA scorer, so he does that. That could be an Atlanta fit, too. Fred Van Vliet is another guy who, you know, I feel like the

Luka stuff has been happening for years, with Dallas maybe being a landing spot for Van Vliet as a secondary guy. What about Orlando? I've been calling for this for a couple weeks. Orlando goes the other way. Says, you know what? We like our team.

Let's add Fred Van Vliet to this. But yeah, Van Vliet's only at 21 this year and then he's got a player option. Siakam's 35.5, 37.7 next year. They also have Gary Trent who's an expiring at 17.5. Porter, 6 million. They have a bunch. Like, if they wanted to, they could be the most fun trade machine team. If they were just like, you know what?

We're blowing this up. Like, great. That sounds good. They've been the most fun trade machine team since Kawhi left, but they just refused to embrace their destiny, Bill, of giving us content and stuff to talk about by moving. Because these guys go to a team, they're going to make the team better, materially better.

And that would be fun to see, especially OG and Siakam. So, yeah. Can I give you a fake trade that I was excited about? It's a three teamer, Toronto, Minnesota, Miami, Miami gets Van Vliet and Trent.

Minnesota gets Kyle Lowry. Toronto gets D'Angelo Russell, Jovich, and Miami's 2023 first. Russell is an expiring free agent. I'm just trying to figure out how to get anyone better than D'Angelo Russell on Minnesota

because I just can't watch him anymore. So even Lowry, who I think is at a declining part of his career. Yeah, his body's done. Love Kyle Lowry. But yeah, having an adult in Minnesota. to be like what are you doing

Rudy Gobert why are you yelling at the ref there's four minutes left just come back to the huddle somebody who commands some level of respect because that's what Minnesota's missing they just don't have a toughness there's just no there's no adulting happening over there it's just a bunch of guys that look I don't want to... Could be Kyle Lowry. Some of these guys are still really young, but Kyle Lowry would be a nice fit if his body could somehow hold up. And D'Angelo Russell, like, what is he,

Bill? What's his next deal? Like, what's his next deal? What's his next team? What are they talking themselves into about this dude? I think he's looking at like a Jordan Clarkson, Jordan Poole type situation on his next team.

But that's about $12 million a year. He's making $30 right now. D'Angelo, you'll be taking a pay cut next year. The going rate for what you do is about $12 million. The last Wimbanyama team, unfortunately, is the Los Angeles Lakers who don't have their pick.

They're 14 and 21. New Orleans does have the pick. You just wanted to bring this. You just wanted to. That's our last team. To just turn the knife into Lakers one last time as a parting shot. The glee in your face, Bill, right now. Trying to hide it.

It's incredible. The silver lining, they get to swap picks with New Orleans, who will probably be like a three seed in the West. So that'll be like the 24th pick. So they'll have that to trade. At least they'll have a pick, right? Yeah, at least they'll have a pick. At least they don't have to sit out the draft.

But yeah, I think it would have been interesting if they had their pick and they had the ability to trade LeBron which is the weirdest thing that happened in 2022 NBA wise that I have no explanation for a lot of people didn't talk about this why did LeBron do an extension that made

him unable to be traded for an entire season why that's what I was gonna say also like LeBon signing his deal when he did timing wise that made it so that he couldn't be traded was just like that's interesting why why and then he does the speech last night about i'm playing for rings right now and it's like if you're playing for rings he doesn't want to move, Bill. He doesn't. But why would you lock into this team

when they try to trade Westbrook all summer and you didn't even want to like shake his hand in Vegas. And really it's you and Davis and Davis is one of the biggest health risks we have of any of the good players. Why would you not want to keep your options open for February? I mean, he's a, they, we already know he's a billionaire. It's like, oh, I made an extra three million bucks. It's like, you have a billion dollars. Yeah. I don't get it.

I really think he doesn't want to leave the city of Los Angeles. And I can't blame him. Being rich here has to be really fun. Yeah, he wanted to lock down LA. Yeah. And just make sure that they didn't trade him to some weird place. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I wonder if he regrets it. He's suffering the consequences of that, 100%. You know, every now and again, Bill, you hang out with people who like, they find out what you do and they ask you these questions. And somebody was like, the LeBron stuff, like, should we be parsing every single thing that he says? I'm like, of every single player in the league, LeBron more than anybody knows exactly what he's saying

when he is saying it. He is saying it because people are going to parse his words. So, yeah, with LeBron, like, it's worth reading into. He's trying to send a message to somebody every time he opens his mouth. And the Lakers are listening to the message like, sorry, dude, you resigned. And it's your fault we have the team we have

because you wanted us to trade for all these guys. You're forcing us to trade for Davis and Westbrook. We won a title. Got a title out of it. Well, it's good to see you. We can hear you on the Ringer NBA show. Sometimes we can see you on the website Various ways Of course

And on YouTube as well Happy holidays my friend Happy holidays to everybody Shouts to Nephew Kyle Great producer Shouts to everybody at the Ringer Next year Bigger and even better things coming up

So yeah so happy to be back on the BS Alright see you in 2023. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. When you ride transit, please be safe.

Yeah, be safe. Because what you do, others will do too. Others will do it too. So don't take shortcuts across tracks. Don't do that. In fact, just don't walk on tracks at all. Not at all. Trains move quietly, so you won't hear them coming.

You won't hear them coming. See, safe riding sets an example. Yeah, an example for me. Because safety is learned. It's learned. Okay, give it up. Give what up? Really?

Really, really. This message is brought to you by Metrolinks. All right, taping this noon Pacific time on Thursday. Peter Schrager's here as always. He's recovering from a little stomach flu. He's playing hurt. I'm playing hurt. He had a questionable,

he had a red flag next to him in fantasy. It's fantasy championship week. I got to go. Let's roll. I'm going to put up my Luka game, 60 and 20. Let's go. We have been doing really well

on Million Dollar Picks. And last week went two and two in our big ones and had some bad luck. The Miami game where the Dolphins fell apart and then the Eagles where they somehow didn't cover. I was feeling really good about the slate. It gets harder in week 17 because we have these teams that's like, are you going to try? Do you care what's going on here? Like Niners Raiders is the perfect example for me that Raiders

or the bench car for the season. They're starting Jared Stidham, who I just don't think is a good quarterback. And yet, I don't know what the Niners, you could tell me, they're just like, we're good. We'll take the three seed. We just want to be healthy for round one. What do you think they do? I think they're going to play. I'll tell you why. Because of conference records right now, they have the tiebreaker over Minnesota. And by the time they play, maybe they'll have a better idea of what's going on. But if they somehow can tie Minnesota, they're a game behind. And go through the numbers with me. If Minnesota loses to the Packers and the 49ers win, they have the tiebreaker over Minnesota. That playoff game in the second round would be in San Francisco. So I think at the very least, there's two more weeks left. They're a game behind and they have the tiebreaker over Minnesota.

I think the Niners are going to play the string out as hard as they can. Well, interesting. They play at 4.05 ET on Sunday and the Vikings-Packers game starts 20 minutes later. Yeah. So there's a world where they could play hard for a half and then see what's... And if the Vikings are up 17-3, they're like, ah, screw it. But even still, the next week, if the Vikings lose and the Niners win again,

they're only one game behind. So I think they have to finish. If they want that glimmer of a home game, they need it. That said, maybe they take the foot off the gas a little bit if they're blowing the Raiders out. Do you think the Raiders come out and play fired up football for Jared Stidham now?

Is that how you see this going? I always get worried with QB changes and coaching changes, but the point of all of this is I only want to concentrate on games where I know both teams give a shit. So that rules out Giants, Colts. I have no idea what's going on with the Colts, and it looks like Jeff Satter will be back on TV on a rival network of yours in about three weeks. Yep. Lions-Bears, we're going to dabble in underdog parlay, but just for fun because there's a world where the Bears just run the ball on the Lions.

We'll talk about that in a second. Chiefs-Broncos, KC could be the one seed if Buffalo loses. They do care. Broncos coaching change, it just me, seems like a stay away. Chiefs are minus 13-F. The unclear ones. Cowboys, Tennessee tonight. We'll find out

by the time people hear this that'll happen. Chargers, Rams. So the Chargers can get to a five seed. The Rams don't have their first round pick. I assume both teams

are going to try. What's going on with the Rams? Do we trust the Rams? What's happening? You don't love this Rams team with Kobe Durant with two picks. No, like the Rams are fun right now. They're playing all these guys that probably shouldn't be on the field. And after a couple of weeks together, they're gelling. And it's interesting on Christmas day, the whole country's watching the Rams and everyone's rolling their eyes. They blew out that Broncos team and the Broncos look so inept on one end,

their coach gets fired, but McVay had his guys ready to play. And I'll tell you, there's a couple of players like Cam Akers, who I think revitalized his career over the last few weeks. And, you know, he and McVay have had a whole rollercoaster ride this season and now they're on great terms. And you look at some of the other players on that team that, you know, we're talking about Larell Murchison, like like a guy who would never never get on the field for the rams because of injuries is playing lights out i mentioned kobe durant there's a bunch of no-name player like the rams are fighting i don't know if they have enough figures fighting to stay in the league yeah and i don't know if they have enough talent to keep up with the chargers and that would crush rams fans to hear because they don't like

the chargers fans and they share the building and the whole thing but i just don't know if the rams with what they're putting on the field, can keep up with the other LA team. Well, the Chargers look like a tease candidate to me because you can take them down to one and a half, basically, and then have fun with another game that I really like that we'll talk about in a second. And yet, so the Chargers have a chance for the five seed, especially if the Dolphins lose to the Patriots.

Yes. And then that game suddenly takes a bigger weight. But that's why these games always make me nervous. Jags, Texans, we know that the Jaguars only need to win in week 18. The Falcons, Cardinals, nobody needs that game. And then the other one, Washington Browns, where it means nothing to the Browns. Washington needs everything. But Browns, it doesn't mean anything.

And yet that's the fishiest line of the week. Washington's only favored by one and a half at home against a Browns team that's already been eliminated. And Sal and I talked about this on Sunday. It had all the makings of the stay away. Maybe the league will stick it to Washington again. I don't know what's happening, but why isn't that line Washington by three?

There's so little faith in Carson Wentz. I imagine that everyone thinks that Carson Wentz is going to come down and pee down his leg. And it's like Cleveland just going to run the ball down their throat. But I think it's a good matchup for Washington. Washington needs this. If Washington, you know,

there's a way that the Packers can get in the way that the Packers get in is if they went out. And if Washington loses one of these games. If Cleveland upsets Washington, the Packers have a very clear path that they can get by Minnesota. I think that would be the most fascinating storyline if Aaron Rodgers and the Packers found their way into this just downright beaten down NFC, to be honest. The Eagles right now I mean, the Eagles right now, after all the injuries they're suffering and what they've got going on, the Niners have Brock Purdy, which I think you and I have talked about.

We love him. It's great. But if you're telling me that you let Aaron Rodgers back in the club and they're the winners of five straight games going into the playoffs, I don't know if that's a great matchup for the two seed. So I'm trying to figure out, I was looking at the Washington Cleveland well why not just go Giants big

like the Colts had nothing on on Monday night if I'm looking at that game you say you want to stay away I'm so tired of losing money on games that have the Colts involved I hear you okay and I don't know if I trust the Giants to just take care of a high line it's an easy take care of business

well let's go we'll go in order in the games I like, and then we can talk about some of the storylines with them. The biggest one, the most fascinating game of the week is Dolphins-Pats, where you have Teddy Bridgewater coming in for the two-a concussion.

This is third concussion of the year. It's amazing nobody even thought that this was a reason why he tailed off so badly in the second half of that game. There was one person on Twitter who posted a video and it was during the game. I feel bad. I don't have the person's name, but he posted it and it got sent around in NFL circles immediately after the game about the play and said, Tua's performance nosedived right after this play.

But yes, he's not playing this week. And I'll tell you, I talked to folks in Miami and they're like, Teddy is, this is why we have Teddy and Teddy's a great backup and all this thing, but no, Tua Tungvaluwa was the guy. And like, to just think that Teddy Bridgewater is going to step right in and be everything that Tua was, um, that's not the case. And hopefully he can. And a lot of fans out there of Teddy's game. We've seen him do this before in new Orleans when they went five and oh, and drew breeze went out, but it's,

it's not the same offense to a T as it is with two are running it for sure. Well, the good news for them is they get to play the Patriots. Do they just fall apart? Like after that loss, after Stevenson fumbles, is that,

is that it? Like, is that all she wrote? And I, I know you spoke about this with, I don't know if it was so lack or with, with cousin Sal with cousin sal where you were like is would you even want to see him in the playoffs again i said that's to jason mccourty i was like your brother's on the team you played for that team like at this point and he's like i i don't know because last year they got to the

wildcard round and just got absolutely embarrassed and that's almost the worst way to go out than just getting a good draft pick and i'm like really is that how patriots fans are feeling like you'd almost rather just have a top 15 pick than even get into the wild card it could be like a top eight or nine pick yeah what's your thoughts as a patriots fan after watching the last two weeks how they've lost those games i'm on the record i would rather see this team go seven and ten i think this team has no chance at all in the playoffs. Here's some stats for you. Last five weeks, their bottom 10 DVOA for the season, 32nd in the

red zone. They only have 38.5% touchdowns. They're red zone, so they're the worst team in the league in the red zone. They're 29th in first downs. They're 26th in third down percentage, 34.9. They have 26 offensive TDs, which is six from last. They're 30% on fourth down, which is second to last in the league. They're three for 10 on fourth down. They have 96 offensive penalties, which is the sixth highest. Their

best receiver is in the top 35 receiving yards. Robondre has been, I think, a little bit hurt for the last couple weeks. And I think you could argue Mac's one of the five worst starting quarterbacks in the league. And I don't see, we just had a 15-game sample size of this combined with how bad the coaching staff is. I just don't see them beating this Miami team, whoever the quarterback is on Miami. Miami already kicked the shit out of them the first time they played. In Miami? In Miami. But still, they were quarterback is on Miami. Miami already kicked the shit out of them the first time they played. In Miami? In Miami, but still, they were super physical with them.

They're cornerbacks. Did you see the cornerback situation for the Pats? I don't know who's covering. Losing Marcus Jones, who was the kick returner, who all of a sudden was an important cornerback guy. I just don't see how they're going to hang with them. I also feel like Miami is a little undervalued. They were about to beat Green Bay and two got concussed. And he threw three picks in the fourth quarter.

Inexplicable. And it's the only reason they lost the game. Their defense was good in that game. Their defense gave up 301 yards on 65 plays. Their offense put the defense in some real tough spots. Plus, you had a ridiculous onside kick call early on that gave them a half a field. There was missed opportunities all over the place by the Dolphins offense that the Dolphins defense was put in a real tough spot. They actually played really good against Rodgers last week. They did. defense, whether it was mistakes or turnovers, whatever, they were packed up in their own

territory and they stopped Green Bay a bunch of times. So I'm with you. It's more about whether Belichick can... I've never seen a Belichick team does not show up and fight though. Do you think they're just done? Is that how you look at this? Have you watched this season? I think they're done. They came all the way back last week. Yeah, but did you watch the game though? I mean, I watched. I was texting you throughout. They're down 22. They get a super fluky pick six. Yeah. They get a Hail Mary that just bounces off somebody and goes right to...

I did not know who Scotty Washington was. I didn't know who Scotty Washington was. I didn't know who he was. They got missed extra points and missed field goals from McPherson. McPherson, yep. I don't know. The Bengals finished with 22 points. It should have been 30 plus.

And I just don't think the Pats are good. And people keep thinking like, you know, my friends are trying to reverse jinx the Pats. I'm like, I'm really not. I care about the million dollar picks more than the Pats at this point. They have just botched this season. It's really upsetting.

I mean, it's funny. Not the rumor. I could tell you. There's a lot of talk of Bill O'Brien returning. Does that excite you? I don't know. He's an actual coach. It does. Okay. All right. He's running offense. He knows what he's doing. I almost

wonder if it would do this whole thing a favor if Belichick hired outside his little tree. He's not doing that anymore. He doesn't want to do that anymore. He just wants either people he already knew or people he's related to. It's just wild. There's all these young great offensive coaches in the league.

All right. I'm not saying anything wrong with Bill O'Brien, but I think you've got other minds that maybe could ingest or put a little more pizzazz into this Patriots team than the same guy who coached the offense 10 years ago. Here's one of the weirdest things I think of the whole season is Miami's week by week.

It's a roller coaster. They win three. They lose three to Cincinnati, the Jets, and the Vikes. With Skylar Thompson at quarterback. Tua comes back. They win five. Five, yep. And nowler Thompson at quarterback. Tua comes back. They win five. Five, yep. And now they've lost four. Every game in December.

So they go up three, down three, up five, down four. They lost to the Niners. No shame in that. At San Francisco, Niners might be the best team in the league. They lose to the Chargers. Tight game. Tough one. Tough one. Sunday night. Close one. Could have gone either way. They lose a close one in Buffalo

in a blizzard. We spent all last week raving about the Dolphins. The Packers game is over. It's over a couple different times. They somehow blow that. My question was, are the Dolphins going to lose five straight games? Does that seem realistic with all the talent they have?

Should we double down on the Dolphins? Should we double down? Because I still thought in the early part of that game, I'm like, they look so good. Waddle goes for 86 yards. They've got all sorts of flash and Mostert's running hard. And I don't know, Teddy Bridgewater, can he do the job?

Would that not be a great story? Nick Foles did it a couple of years ago when Wentz went down. Foles came in and was like, I got it, don't worry. Can Bridgewater do it? That's the question. I don't even want the plus two and a half for them.

Give me the plus 126. Yeah. Give me the plus 126. I actually don't understand the line. And I really think with the Pats, this has turned into a thing of it's past performance is the only reason that these lines are the way they are. It's the logo. People see the logo in the building. Yeah. And Belichick. Oh, Belichick. You don't want to keep him alive. It's like, this is done. Okay.

It's over. This season's done. And I like the Dolphins. And I hate rooting against the Pats. But at the same time, if you're a real Pats fan, there's a real case to root for a top eight or a top nine pick and an impact guy, whether it's an impact defensive tackle, an impact receiver, um, let's go trade up a year ago. They went to the wildcard round as a seven seating, got absolutely destroyed by Buffalo on that Saturday night game. Like,

would you rather them not made the playoffs or would you, were you happy that like, Hey, we got to the playoffs going back in time, looking at it. It's a, it's a blur now, right? I mean, who cares? And last year's team was way better than this year's team in the sense that they at least had some better wins. Yeah. I do think there's a chance

Mack ends up in Vegas next year. With McDaniels? That's interesting. I think they really had a good relationship and I think McDaniels believes in them. And just in general, I don't know who the Patriots quarterback will be next year. I don't think the Mac Jones thing has gone well on any side.

What about all the cutups of him with these dirty plays that I'm sure made your way to you? What do you think of that? That he's like a dirty player. Like the Cincinnati one was strange. Yeah, that was bad. That did seem dirty.

He's had a couple of those. He had the one where he pulled Brian Burns, his leg. Yeah. Um, I don't even, I don't wait. Listen, if he's dirty, if he's not dirty, I don't dirty. He's had a couple of those. He had the one where he pulled Brian Burns' leg. Yeah. I don't even... Listen, if he's dirty, if he's not dirty, I don't care. I care that. What is his above average skill?

What's he good at? Can he throw the ball deep? Not really. Is he a good quick passer guy? Not really. Can he run? Not really. What is he good at?

We've had a really long sample size now, and I don't know what he's good at. And I watch every Patriots game. game. Kyle was out four games ago. You've mentioned the Brady rumor to New England. Would you be entertained by a Jimmy Garoppolo? Would that do anything? Or is that like going down now that Jimmy's been injured again, you're not looking to go back down that road? I'm more intrigued by them getting like a top eight or nine pick with a quote, with a draft that has five guys that have a chance to be in the top 10

potentially and seeing where that, how that shakes out. And maybe they can even move up a little and use Mac to move up into the top five, whatever. I'm more intrigued by that, but I think this Patriots season needs somebody to take a full glass of water and just throw it in its face?

End it. Yeah, because I'm still hearing the other sides of things. And it's like, this is done. We need to dramatically rethink this organization, the future of this team, the course of this team.

And if they beat the Dolphins this week, all that does is delay this. This team's going nowhere. Yeah, I don't want this team to hang around. They're not good. If they were an NBA team, they'd be like the Wizards. They'd be like, oh, the Wizards might get a nine seed. It's like, great. What does that get us? We're not in the

Wimbledon chase. I love the Dolphins plus 126. I think they have too much talent to lose five in a row. So that's one. Jet Seahawks. The Jets are favored in Seattle, minus one and a half. Seattle since week nine. They're one in five.

Defensively 30th in DVOA. They do get Tyler Lockett back this week, but they haven't won at home since October. Mike White back for the Jets. Mike White. And look, you can have a laugh about, oh, Mike White, the savior, but he's not Zach Wilson. And sometimes just not being somebody is enough.

I really liked how they played with him. I think the Jets are legitimately talented and I think Zach sucked the life out of them. Every time he played, basically, for the last, what, six, seven weeks, and it was unsustainable. And I think they're better than the Seahawks. I just think they have a better team.

The Packers got everything they possibly could have ever needed last week. The Jets did too. And that wasn't a big storyline this week. But when the Jets lost Thursday night, it was like, all right, there's the season. And that's fine. If you told them before the season started, they would win seven games.

They would say, sign up for that. Let's go. And then you go to Saturday and you had all those teams, the Raiders losing. You had the Patriots losing. You had the Dolphins on Sunday losing. You had all those other AFC teams that were hovering all lose. The Jets wake up on Monday morning and they're like, shit, we're right back in this thing. So they have new life.

The doctor's clear, Mike White. And if you want to know how much Zach Wilson's struggling, yet again, he's not the number two on Sunday. They're not going to have him as number two. He's not going to be out there. So they've already said you just don't even we're not even worried like just stay stay away like just go away and i i think they revitalized i think the jets didn't think they had a shot as a collective whole um i've spoken to spoken to salo this week and like he's like we we got a chance here like we're alive like you know i brought up the uh the coming to america mortimer and and uh and randolph there we're thinking we're back you know, I brought up the coming to America Mortimer and Randolph there. We're back, you know, like that scene. That's what it feels like with the Jets.

They were dead on Thursday night in a terrible game against Jacksonville. Gross out, everything, fans booing, the whole deal. Now you're telling me Mike White is suddenly going to be up and ready to go. You're going up against Geno Smith, former Jets quarterback, who a lot of the Jets fans don't exactly look at as Joe Montana or Tom Brady. And you're going in against a team that you made a trade with for Jamal Adams. Like there's, I don't know,

there's a lot of reasons that the Jets fans would say, oh, we can't win in Seattle. And then you look at what the Seahawks have done the last five weeks. They haven't won since Munich. Maybe they won one game. They went to Germany. And the Jets are alive.

I feel like this might be a Jets win. Jets 7-8. Pittsburgh 7-8. New England 7-8. Miami's 8-7. That's the 7 seed right now. Yep. Baltimore potentially could lose

to Pittsburgh this week and add Cincinnati. So they have to be in the mix too. I don't think the Chargers are going to lose too. But they'll know what happens in that Pats-Dolphins game before this Jets game. Yep.

It's better for them if the Pats beat the Dolphins. Yes. Yes. Because then the Pats are at Buffalo the week after. But it's also, it really doesn't matter because they get to play Miami in week 18 anyway. They're going to have to win that anyway. But they would week 18 anyway. They're going to have to win that at Miami, but they would have to win and they're going to have to win that anyway. I like the spot for the jets and Seattle is a little similar to what we were talking about

with the pats. Like they've just been sputtering like they're like a balloon that's just losing air. Yeah. Guess what? You're probably better off going seven and 10. Do you want to go nine and eight and get the 17th pick? You have this other pick from the Denver trade. Denver Broncos. It's going to go nine and eight and get the 17th pick? You have this other pick from the Denver trade.

Denver Broncos. It's going to be like the fourth pick in the draft. You might be able to get like the fourth and the 13th picks out of this. I just think their defense is shot. It's so easy to move the ball on them.

Gino, I don't want to say he fell back to earth, but you know, it wasn't like a Tom Cruise Mission Impossible Fallout Halo dive, but it definitely, he definitely like

fell off the deck on the beach. They went, landed on the sand. I was in Germany for that Munich game and the amount of heat and momentum,

they were going to have the offensive and defensive rookie of the year and Woolen and Kenneth Walker. Geno's the comeback player that we were talking. Who would you rather start right now?

Brady or Geno on your team? Because they were both playing in this game and it was a real debate and like nfl guys were saying you know we had like we had nfl legends on the show being like gino smith like gino smith playing better football they are a totally different team now and sometimes it's just what you said it's an 18 week season it's not a 12 week season and those guys are the rabbit they're young man they're young they're the rabbit team and their running young, man. They're young. They're the rabbit team. And their running game went south too. They had some injuries, but it happens.

I still feel like this season is an awesome success. Yes. And I still think Geno's your comeback player of the year. The Russell Wilson trade is one of the most transformative trades they possibly could have made over paying him. And instead you get all this stuff back. So just that alone, it's a win. All right, we're going to take a break,

and then we'll talk about some of the other games we like. So we're going to stay away from this game for Million Dollar Picks, but there is a new coach bump that we see over and over again. The Broncos right now, they're getting 13.5 against the Chiefs. Chiefs could be the one seed if Buffalo loses. It's not like they don't have anything to play for, but this is the classic bad spot. We've seen the Chiefs just get super bored in games like this. And not mail it in, but just be on cruise control.

And then you kind of have to slap them in the face a couple of times. Like, all right, fine. Kelsey over the middle for 30 and they'll win by six. But this Broncos thing, I think it was the fifth time ever that a first year coach got fired during the season. uh there's a guy rich goldberg who works on our show who's great he's like an almanac and i'm like you know i keep on seeing this five who are the five and he's like well bobby petrino i'm like no bobby petrino didn't get fired like and who's the other one like well lou holtz i'm like lou holtz didn't get fired these guys quit so he's really only the third coach since 1970 to be fired during a season and i'll tell you what i thought and, and I've, I've worn it on Twitter, maybe as much as anyone has this week. I thought he was going to be great. I thought, I thought Hackett would be great. And I thought he would revitalize this franchise. And I don't know if it's a confluence of his inexperience or the fact that maybe Russell wasn't the guy that they thought they were going to be pairing him with. They maybe thought that Rogers would be the guy or whatever it is. But in my wildest dreams, I didn't see this thing going this way. And I don't think anyone saw Sunday's Christmas on national TV with Romo and Nance on one call,

with Nickelodeon doing SpongeBob stuff on the other call. You got Randy Gregory fighting a guy in front of Tracy Wolfson in an interview afterwards. You got the offensive line yelling at Brett Rippin, who's trying to stick up for Russell Wilson. It was so bad in such a nationally televised game that I think they're just like, let's rip the bandaid off. Fired week 15. I didn't ever see it going like this. I'm shocked. And yet I don't think they've got anything left there to rally for Jerry Rosberg, who showed up in week three anyway. And they have new owners. New owners, big wallets. Were the new owners responsible for the hack and hiring? I can't remember.

No, no, no, no, no. Yeah, and they weren't responsible for the Wilson trade either. They inherited. So there's a chance. Well, no, they were there with the- The extension for Wilson. No, no. I think I got to get the crown. They inherited all of it.

That's what I think. Yeah. They took over after the extension. So all that stuff, they just inherited this. And it was, you know, they've got,

they've got deep wallets or deep pockets. They've got a great fan base. You know, I threw it out there. I'm like, you know, I work with Sean Payton every Sunday and I'm like, Sean Payton would make sense.

The question is, does Sean Payton want to go no don't do that sean plus they have to trade something to get them they don't have any picks they'd have to trade to get them um they do have picks like they actually are not so bad in the draft stuff and they traded chubb to the dolphins for their first round pick so they have picks great they're just they're just like the 24th pick they're're just pot committed to, to the, to this Russell Wilson for two more years. And it's like, two more. It's like,

but even then at the third year, they get two more years by his cap. Yes. Yeah. Two more years for like the crazy big money. And then it's like, all right, was this just a one year,

just terrible match between coach and quarterback? Or is Russ really that? Cause he, I mean, he looks like he can, and he was against that Rams defense without their starters and couldn't move the ball he was I I just think this is who he is I don't see it coming back I don't what what silver lining has I don't know it's so

shocking it seems like he's lost all his skills it's like Clark Kent in Superman 2. It's just bonkers. If I'm Sean Payton, there is no way in hell I'm going to Denver because you can talk yourself into it. I can resuscitate Russ, but if you can't, then what? Then what do you do? The only thing is that these owners might, I mean, we're talking

like billions and billions and billions. Would these owners just say, hey, we'll pay for it all and take care of all of it. And if we have to figure something out with Russ, we will eat it and we'll just make it work. And they just eat the cost.

And yeah, it's salary cap hell, but it's not you're forced to play this guy. Yeah, but he wants to win though. He doesn't want to be playing with one hand behind his back. I saw the New Orleans going there with Brady rumor, which had been circulating for a few weeks.

It still hinges on Tom Brady moving to New Orleans for a year in one of the smallest markets in the league. And now he's just like this traveling nomad. Like that's such a weird way for his career to end. Like to me, it's either he goes to the Patriots or he goes to the Niners. Brady. Brady. I don't see another scenario where that doesn't make him look pathetic. Certainly not staying with Tampa. But if I'm Peyton, I'm rooting against Dallas.

I just am. I'm watching these Dallas games and I'm just like, man, I hope they lose this week. Man, I hope they look bad. I don't want to speak out of school because I'm with him every Sunday and we've become very good friends. I really enjoy his company. I wasn't a Sean Payton guy. And when I say that, I mean, I just didn't, we did production meetings. I didn't know him. And I was like, all right, he's got his people in the media and Glazer who's with Fox is like his guy and that's cool. And I'll just do whatever. We're on the show together, and I'm like, he's amazing. He's great. He's the nicest, smartest with the football in real time. We watch these games, and he's very open that he wants to return to coaching.

So we on the show are like, oh, every Cowboys loss is another one for you. And he just kind of does that laugh. He's not denying it. And yet the Saints one is kind of sensitive to him because Dennis Allen's one of his guys. So all these rumors that he's going back to the Saints, he's like, well, I don't, you know, I didn't put that out there. He's certainly not the one. So I don't know. That's another situation where they already had, they already lost their first round pick for this year. Yeah. They tried it. I guess they were in, they were in Capel this season. Maybe it gets a little better next season. No, but they would,

they would have a vacancy at quarterback. We to assume jamis winston and andy dalton aren't the guys so that's where the brady stuff and if it's not brady does payton tap into a garoppolo they both have eastern illinois connections and don yee is the agent to brady's don yee's agent to garoppolo don yee's the agent to sean payton it's like that's where you start piecing together you're looking looking at open places, but the Chargers thing would have been a great fit. I don't see them firing Brayden Staley. That's like me and Sal with Sunday

Ticket. It's like James Dixon is Sal's agent. James Dixon is Bill's agent. Put it all together. What could happen here? I think Sean Payton waits another year. I think you might be right. Either Chargers... Next year, the jobs

are going to be better. The situations are going to be better. Maybe Doug Peterson flames out in Jacksonville. He's going to attach himself to a QB. He gets it. He's had it both ways. He had it with Breeze. He had it with Breeze. Then he had it. End of his prime, Breeze into this whole weird

Taysom Hill. And, you know, it's really fun to have a franchise QB. We will see what happens. All right, back to the games. By the way, the Saints. We were talking. Who do they got? The Saints, to me, are a stay away because.

They're still alive in the playoff hunt. Yeah, I think. I just don't think the Saints are that bad. They're one of those teams. They really were good last week in that cold weather game with Cleveland. I thought that was a cool win for them. And Dennis Allen has been on the hot seat all season long for some decisions and stuff. They've won two straight games in December.

I know. And you and I have gone back and forth on them. But I thought that was a big win. That was a big boy win. They went in there as a warm weather dome team, went into Cleveland and ran the ball down their throats. Just for the record, I have not gone back and forth on him. I am back. I think he stinks. I have been the

one going forth. But if they're 6-9, they lost that ridiculous Tampa game. So let's just give them the win for that, 7-8. And then you go through and they had a couple other just awful losses can i tell you something that uh minnesota loss was bad in week four that was that was crazy but do you

remember the dj moore helmet thing think about the nfc south right now if those refs don't call that penalty on dj moore who took his helmet off against atlanta which would have been a game tying touchdown then they had the 15 yards and they missed the extra point all that stuff if they don't call that penalty there's a chance chance the Panthers, very good chance Panthers win that game. And the Panthers are in the driver's seat right now, as opposed to having to come from behind and beat the Buccaneers and went out the rest of the season. Well, then add the Cade York 59 yard field goal too. Crazy. Two ludicrous endings that go against Carolina. Let's talk about Carolina. I'm staying away from Eagle Saints,

even though I love Minshew, because I don't totally know what Philly's motivation is at this point. We know they need to win one of the next two. So they need it, but it's not like life or death. Whereas for the Saints, it is life or death. I think the Saints are a good December team. That game scares me

if I'm an Eagles fan. I'm just staying away. I don't want to have the Eagles in a tease. I don't want to put Saints in under Doug Carley. Staying away. Stay away.

Panthers, Bucks though. So, people listening all year are going to be like, oh, Simmons is definitely taking the Panthers. No question. Watch this.

Here it goes. Tampa clinches with a win. They clinch the South. It's over. Carolina has to win both, but they do control their own destiny. Last five weeks, they're ninth in DVOA.

They killed Tampa Bay the last time. Here's the problem. They have no cornerbacks. They're down. The JC Horn thing is a mass murder. And supposedly, he can come back for week 18. It hurts. you're down. The JC Horn thing is a mass murder. And supposedly he can come back for week 18. It hurts.

But just in my head, it reminds me of that Seattle game in Germany when they just couldn't cover. It just, it was quick outs. It was eight yard, 10 yards, nine yards. And Brady is just throwing, throwing, throwing. And if the Bucs don't do that in this game, then they have the dumbest coaching staff of all time. We've seen, just spread the field

and have Brady throw these seven, eight, nine yard outs. I think Carolina has a better team, but the cornerbacks thing is just a murder. There's a couple of weird bets though. There's Carolina wins the first half and the game is plus 220. Carolina wins the first half and the game is plus 220. Carolina wins the first half and the game. Okay.

Because the thought is, if we fall behind, the game's over, team. Right? Against Detroit, they get the lead. Oh, here we go. They're down 10-3 to Brady. I don't see them coming back. There's also a bet that kind of fits the season more. Carolina wins the first half and then Tampa wins the game.

That's plus 700 on FanDuel. That's what the Bucs do every week. And then you get that left-witch hug with Brady that the cameras show and they're like, these guys love each other, man. And you're like, do they? I don't know what that is. They've literally won four or five games that way.

I don't think Panthers plus three is a bet we should be considering. But I do think we should get funky with one of those. Okay. One of those things. I think the JC Horn thing, if he was healthy, I would absolutely take the Panthers because I just think like,

I just can't shake that Steelers game when we had the Panthers and Deontay Johnson was just nine for 12. And it was just like, they can't cover this guy. They have no chance. They had JC Horn in that game. And now he's out too. So stay away.

Vikings. Okay. Green Bay. We've been driving down a road that's been winding to get to this destination. Who are you going with? Vikings need to keep the two seed. Yes, they do. They do not want to go to San Francisco in round two.

I'm guessing. No. They do not want to play the Giants in round one. No, hell no. Green Bay loses six to seven. They beat the Bears and the Rams. Have a little bye week in there. They're going to lose to Miami and Tua gets a concussion

and throws three picks in the fourth quarter. They still need two wins. Everybody is back on the bandwagon. And I continue to think that they are not very good. They have gotten everything they could have possibly needed the last three weeks to fall in their favor. And it has. And they haven't played great football. They barely beat the Rams. That was a game for a while. It's crazy that they aren't where they're at because they aren't lights out. And Rodgers has been eerily confident in these press conferences, like, well, we just got everything we needed to happen and it happened. And it did. For everyone to lose last week, the way that they did and then them go on Sunday and beat the Dolphins the way that they did, it's eerie, dude. It's like, I don't know. Does he know something that we don't?

I don't know. Because everything has happened the we don't? I don't know because everything has happened the way that they needed it to chart out to happen after being four and eight. No Christian Watson, probably. And if he's playing, he's going to be banged up. Practiced. And he's going to be banged up if he's playing, but he's their speed guy.

He's their best. Listen, I don't want to defend Minnesota. You can. I said this to Sal on Sunday. Them and Baltimore are the two I can't believe this fucking team teams that just all season were like, how did I lose that game? I can't believe

it. I can't believe I lost money on them. It was the right pick. I would do it again. Both of those teams. But Minnesota over and over again, especially late in the games, they make plays. They do it over. The Giants game,

Giants tie the game 24-24. And it's like, wow, Giants have all the momentum. They're going to win an OT. Two huge third down conversions. Yeah, Vikings are like, no. No, we're actually going to win this right now. Well, that's the thing.

At what point is it, hey, they're 11-0 in one-score games. At what point is it they're lucky? Or at what point is it they're pretty clutch? I think Justin Jefferson's numbers on these final game-winning drives, they're insane. He's got 11 catches for 168 yards and three touchdowns on game-winning drives alone.

They're really good when it matters. They're clutch. This has got double importance for the Vikings. One, it eliminates the Packers once and for all, and it steps on Rodgers' throat, and it does it in their building, and it's such a statement. And it's an NFC North, like, it's our division now. Yeah, it's such a statement. It's like, you know what? F off. We got you. We're the team now, and we're taking that torch. The second part of it is, like I said, that two-seat is huge. You don't want to have to go

into San Francisco. I mean, Cousins went there a couple of years ago. Of course, it wasn't the same circumstances. Niners blew them out in a playoff game, a divisional round. I don't think they want to go to San Fran. If they lose this game, there's a good chance that San Fran wins out and San Fran's the two-seat. I think they need to win. And it's a huge game for the Vikings. Here's the other thing. It's small, but I think it matters. Jefferson's puncher's chance at 2,000 receiving yards. Oh, all-time record in 2,000. I think it's like 2,044. Yeah, and some touchdown stuff with him.

And I don't think anyone in the Packers are going to be able to cover him. I think this is worst-case scenario, close game. I think the Vikes are better. I trust them in close games. I don't trust the Packers. I don't in close games. I don't trust the Packers. I don't trust their defense. I don't trust their coach. I don't trust their special teams. And I just think the way we've watched this season all year, the Vikings have won this kind of game and

the Packers have lost it. And yet this year is the year where crazy shit happens. Just when you have a proof of concept from 11 to know that this is the game that they, I'm not playing devil's advocate. I just, this is one of those where if Rogers wins, like it's the most, of course, this dude just rallied off all these wins. And of course the Packers are alive. And of course they need so much to happen, but I would not be shocked if they win this game and Cleveland beats Washington. And suddenly the Packers are winning in against the lions week 18.

Yeah. But do you, from what you've seen from Green Bay? No, Vikings are better. A hundred percent. No, but do you think Green Bay is even a decent football team? Are they mediocre? Would you give them decent? I think decent. I think they were gritty last week and I know that's a cliche term, but I thought that win in Miami, all things considered, to come out of that thing and still be breathing. It was good. It's a good win, man. It is. Counter.

Miami's up 10 at midfield. Mostert just drops the ball. I know. It's like the Packers quote unquote forced for four turnovers. Tua just threw them the ball three times and Mostert just gave them the ball the fourth time. It's not like their defense was like forcing turnovers on like great plays or huge hits. I just don't think they're good. I don't think they're well coached.

I like the Vikes plus three. And if the Packers, there's still a way where the Packers steal it, but I think it's even. I'm with you. Let's go Vikes. Let's go Vikes. Yeah. Last one, we just need to stealers straight up or stealers in a tease.

Steelers are our team straight up against the Ravens. That's our team all season. They have been the one team that has done us good this season. Every week we go Steelers and they win for us. I think the Steelers are better than the Ravens. And yet all season long, it's kind of like the opposite of how I feel about the Vikes, where after a while you're like, all right, this is who the Vikes are. They pull out these games.

The Ravens, I'm just in disbelief every game. I don't understand how they're doing it. Who are their, name three receivers the Ravens have right now. Yeah, no, it's DeMarcus Robinson and it's Sammy Watkins and that's all I got. Yeah. It's the guys, the Chiefs were like, get these guys out. Even Mahomes can't make these guys good. Now these are their guys and they're just going to try to run the ball. I think the Steelers are pretty good. I actually think you could make a case they have a better team

if you're going to take Lamar out of this game, which it seems like he's not playing this week. I think they have a better team, but I've seen the Ravens over and over again win dumb games like this, where they win 10-7, 13-10, 16-10, something like that. That's why I was thinking

Steelers teased the plus eight and a half. And then now I have Pickett insurance in case Pickett... The case against the Steelers is Pickett just kind of doesn't have it for three quarters. A little like what Christmas Eve

was like. Different weather. I think it's going to be okay in Baltimore. I don't know. I thought that was a big boy win. And Tomlin has them fighting, man. I like this Steelers team. Sunday night, Collinsworth. Oh, this is Mike Tomlin.

Mike Tomlin. Tell me one thing. Oh. Yeah, the line is, see, it's two and a half. It's not three. I know. Is the only issue. So you could also do the Ravens or the Steelers plus 120.

So the question is, take the Bengals to plus seven and a half, or you could take the Chargers to minus one and a half. I'm not touching Bengals, Bills. So I think Bengals, Bills, I agree is a hard one. Just enjoy the game. That's a fun game. Enjoy it. Especially with Collins out. I didn't like how the Bengals finished that Pats game. It just felt like they were kind of staggering around there for an hour. Agreed. Chargers-Rams, though? Bosa coming back? I can see the Chargers putting a nice game together.

The question is, is it Steelers in a tease with the Chargers or Steelers straight up? Steelers in a tease with the Chargers. Yeah, I think it is. I think that's the answer. Okay. And then underdog parlay. So we both like the Bears just as a flyer. They're plus 220 against Detroit.

I just saw the Lions give up 500 yards rushing. The Bears are a good running team. Yeah. Yeah. So we could do, do the Bears with the Panthers plus 220 to win the first half and the game. And that's like plus 972,

something like that. I'll figure out the exact odds. Could also do Vegas plus four and a half adjusted, which you didn't like. I didn't like Vegas. I'll figure out the exact odds. You could also do Vegas plus 4.5 adjusted, which you didn't like. I didn't like Vegas. You could do it. I don't like it. Or you could do the Browns in a Goodell has something in for

Washington again game. Browns Bears plus 572. You're assuming Goodell in the league office is pro-Cleveland. I don't see that either. Yeah, good point. Solid point. Alright, we'll figure out somebody to put the Bears with. Coming out of

Sunday, what do you think is going to be the biggest story in the league? Good question. Coming out of Sunday, I think the AFC top team, let's say coming out of Monday because I think there might be a little shakeup. Chiefs, Bills, Bengals, all in this gridlock right now. I think we're going to see

who's got the home field. I think it's the biggest storyline. Who has that buy and who has home field in the AFC? I'm fascinated to see who gets it. Peter Schrager, good to see you as always. You're the man. Million dollar picks, week 17.

Still feeling like I'm seeing the league pretty well right now. We lost 170,000 last week, but man, I liked the picks last week. Lost on Philly plus four and a half. Really felt like they could have covered or potentially won. Lost on Miami against Green Bay. We know what happened that game. I still like the pick. I still like the picks this week.

We have four big plays. First one, Dolphins in New England. We have four big plays. First one, Dolphins in New England. We're not even taking the Dolphins plus two and a half. We're taking the Dolphins plus 126 to win. You heard me talk all week. I don't think this Patriots team is good. I'm not scared by the Teddy Bridgewater piece. I think the Dolphins have more talent. I think they are hungry to a four game losing streak. Are they going to lose five games? They're hungry for a win. They need to get into this race, not just be the seventh seed, but potentially even if the Ravens lose, they get to the sixth seed. Dolphins plus 2026. We're scaling it back down a little bit

this week, just because week 17, the motivations, who knows? In this game, we know what the motivations are. Betting 500,000. Dolphins plus 126. That's game number one. Game number two, Jets at Seattle. I'm on the record. I love this Jets team if they have a decent quarterback. I think this Jets team's talented. Seattle has been a disaster the last few weeks. I think they're one in five in their last six. 30th defensive DVOA. They can't stop anybody. And I think the Jets are going to be able to move the ball on them. I'm not scared about Mike White coming back with whatever his rib thing is. The Jets playing for their lives. So Seattle, this is a loser leaves town match, but Seattle's lost five in a row. They've kind of already left town. Jets minus one and a

half. We're betting 500,000 on that. Vikings plus three in Green Bay. We're grabbing the Vikings. I just don't believe in this Green Bay team. They had a huge losing streak. They beat Chicago. They beat the Rams. They luck out in that Dolphins game. And then everybody's like, oh, Rodgers is back. Is he? Is he back? Was that offense lightening up last week? Christian Watson might be banged up. I don't feel like their defense can get stops. I don't think they're very well coached. I don't like their special teams. The Vikings over and over again, close games, they've been lights out. So even if this is a field goal game, maybe it's a push. If it's a field goal game,

fourth quarter tight, I just believe in the Vikings. They've won me over. Over and over again, they've pulled out these games, been 500,000 Vikings plus three. And last but not least, Chargers Steelers. We're teased them. Six point tees. Taking the Chargers down to minus a half against the Rams. And the Steelers up to plus eight and a half

against the Ravens. I think they're better than the Ravens. Might not even need to tease them, but just to be safe, the Ravens, they pulled a bunch of dumb games out of their butt this year. So we're putting 500,000

on a Chargers SteelSteelers tease. And then last but not least, a little underdog parlay. A little special one for you this week. Bears plus 220 to beat Detroit. Could they run all over them the same way Carolina did last week? Sure.

So we're grabbing them. And then the second piece of the parlay is the Panthers against the Bucs. Get a're grabbing them. And then the second piece of the parlay is the Panthers against the Bucks. Get a little creative here. Panthers to win the first half, Panthers to win the game is plus 220 on FanDuel. So we're going to take that plus 220. We're going to put it with the Bears, plus 924, 50K on that. And both sides have to win. And those are your million-dollar picks for week 17. Happy New Year. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Big Waz. Thanks to Van Lathan. Thanks to Schrigs. Thanks to Kyle Crane for producing. Thanks to everybody for listening. The next

time you hear from me, it's going to be 2023. We made it, everybody. But I thought we had a great year on this podcast. I thought we did a lot of good stuff. I thought it was a really fun year to talk about sports. I felt a little more normal than usual. And as always, really appreciate it. The feedback, the support, everybody's spreading the word out there. Thank you.

See you in 2023.