The Bill Simmons Podcast - NBA Teammate GOATS and ‘Icons Club’ With Jackie MacMullan, Plus Juiciest NFL Story Lines With Danny Kelly

Episode Date: March 16, 2022

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Jackie MacMullan to discuss Kevin Garnett’s jersey retirement, the all-time best NBA teammates, NBA players’ media presence vs. that of other pro athletes, examining the new-look 76ers as the playoffs loom, Jackie’s new podcast ‘Icons Club,’ and more (2:29). Then Bill talks with Danny Kelly about the five biggest NFL offseason stories, including the Broncos reloading with Russell Wilson and Randy Gregory, Tom Brady unretiring and returning to the Buccaneers, the Colts giving up on Carson Wentz, and more (1:05:01). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Jackie MacMullan and Danny Kelly Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

coming up, I have football and basketball, and that's it. Just those two things, football and basketball. It's all next. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this, it's game day, all the gang's here. You're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're standing at the grill and the smell of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that. Or when you want a light beer that tastes like beer, that's delicious. You don't want to load up on those heavier beers

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Gambling problem called Win 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. We have a new Rewatchables that went up on Monday night. Me and Van Lathan did Titanic.

It's 25 years since Titanic came out. Not the anniversary, but 25 years. We did it the first year of the Rewatchables. I was not on that podcast, but Van and I had been texting about the movie

and we just said, screw it. And we decided to do a podcast. A lot of controversial takes. Craig Horlbeck, the producer of the Rewatchables, got so upset at one point that he came on near the end to argue with us. But one of the more fun Rewatchables pods

we've done in a while. So check that one out. Check out our new Ringer podcast. It's called The Town with Matt Bellany. He was on this podcast last week. He put up his first one on Monday night. It is about the industry of Hollywood and it's going to be two to three times a week. And you will like the podcast. If you like this podcast, I am reasonably sure you will like that podcast as well. Jackie McMullen's coming up a little bit later on this podcast. She has a new one coming on Friday called Icons Club. I'm going to explain to you what that is when we talk to

Jackie and we're going to talk to her about NBA and a whole bunch of other stuff. But you can hear that on the Book of Basketball 2.0 feed. That's where all the episodes will be dropping of Icons Club. So she's coming up later. Coming up next, Danny Kelly from The Ringer. We are going to talk free agency, quarterbacks, the draft, and a whole bunch of other stuff. I'm not doing any March Madness on this podcast. We have plenty of places to find March Madness stuff

on The Ringer, including... We're still looking at a new podcast. We have The Ringer NBA show. Those guys have been breaking down the prospects, what to watch. The Mismatch podcast did a whole March Madness thing. So you can go to those places for that. People much smarter than me about college basketball. As you know, I dive into college basketball

right around now. So I am not your best host for that. But what I can do is talk football and basketball. It's next. First, our friends from... World Gym. All right. Jackie McMullin is here. She did not go to Kevin Garnett Day at the... I know. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Few people missed it. Doc wasn't there. Rondo. Ray Allen was there. I don't know if that means

our national nightmare of Ray Allen and that whole group. If we've solved that or he was just there because Rondo wasn't there, who knows? It was a nice day though. And it was interesting to me because my dad, my dad just had the best time he went. It was interesting to me. KG only spent part of his career with the Celtics, but is treated with the same love and affection and reverence as guys that I grew up with like Cowens and Havlicek and then Bird and all of these, McHale, all these dudes

that, and Pierce spent their whole careers there. And KG, I think out of anybody was one of the only people that passed through. He was there six years, but felt like he was there longer. Well, and also remember when he came, he came at a time when the Celtics were a joke. Yeah. They were a joke. I mean, Pierce gave that famous quote to me, I forget what year, when he says, I'm the classic great guy on a lousy team and it sucks, right? And that's what they were for a while. So he brought them back to glory. We kept talking about the glory days and the worst thing in the world, right? We all have friends that were high school heroes. And like 30 years later, you're like, hey, dude, what have you done lately?

And Kevin Garnett was the guy that said, here's what we've done lately. Here's what we've done, motherfuckers. We won a championship. And that's why he is so revered into so many people's hearts, because there was a gap there. And the Celtics weren't used to gaps. Think about it. 11 and 13 years. And then you get great Collins years and Hein in years. And then there's just this like gap and that doesn't fly. So that's why. That's why he's so, so revered. Also because I think he transformed Paul Pierce before our eyes and people want to love Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett made it okay to love Paul Pierce, you know? Right. Yeah, you're right. The Celtics turned into this franchise that really just lived in the old days and the past and the memories and different, you know, and then as

things went away and the big three went away and the garden went away and Red Auerbach died and it just seemed like everything was in the past and he did transform that. There was something that he said during KG day that I thought was interesting that he wanted to go down as the greatest teammate ever. And I was trying to think of who's on that list. Cause to me, Duncan and Curry have to be on that list. And I think KG is definitely 100% on that list, but how short is that list to you? And it ties into the podcast you did for us that we're launching on Friday where we're talking about superstars.

But the greatest teammate list is kind of to the side. Not all superstars were great teammates. But to me, Duncan, KG, Curry, who else? Well, to me, Duncan is undisputably the best teammate of all time. And the reason I say that is because no one asked Kevin Garnett to put aside his considerable talents the way the Spurs asked Tim Duncan to do

so. And Tim Duncan, by the way, didn't care at all. All he cared about was winning and keeping the locker room copacetic. He cared about all those things. And Garnett cared about those things too. And I suppose we can say he made some sacrifices, but I remember talking to Budenholzer once about Tim Duncan and he was saying, I don't think we used him right. We should have gotten more. We could have gotten more. We could have dominated with him, but we kept changing the way we played and he kept changing with us. So to me, it's Tim Duncan and everybody else, to be honest. And going back into previous eras, Russell, I think, if you're talking first 25 years of the

league, Russell's the guy. And then there are some other guys in the 70s and 80s. I think guys would say Oscar Robertson was one of those guys, Bill. Really? Because I always felt like he was a little temperamental with his teammates and pretty demanding. Well, he was, but that a little temperamental with his teammates and pretty demanding. Well, he was, but that doesn't mean you can't be a good teammate. Like, I think Larry Bird was a pretty good teammate, but he was temperamental and demanding of his teammates. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. So just based on, you know, I think Dr. J, people thought Dr. J was a pretty good teammate, by the way, especially like think about Moses Malone coming in. They can't win in Philly. You know, Dr. J and I learned this from doing this series that we're going to talk about is, you know, I'm guilty of this myself. I wasn't growing up. I was not an ABA fan. I didn't follow it the way others did. So, I mean, I guess I knew he won championships, somebody with New

Jersey or New York or something like that. Right. But then he comes in the NBA and all the NBA fans are like, yeah, you're great. But like, are you going to, right? But then he comes in the NBA and all the NBA fans are like, yeah, you're great, but like, are you gonna ever win? And then he wins, you know, really, because Moses Malone joined him. And Moses Malone, they were both all NBA that year, but Moses Malone was like MVP Moses Malone. And Dr. J had no problem with that.

So that to me is- I mean, you could argue Tony was better than Dr. J too at that point. He might've been the third best guy on that team. Right. So to me, that's a great teammate. Someone that was a Hall of Famer that could adjust his expectations, his own expectations and his own stats to do what it takes to win.

I think Nash is in the conversation too, especially when you look at some of the stuff he did with the Suns, you know, even that 2010 Suns team, which is basically like a Nash creation, where at that point, he just had such a stranglehold over every aspect of that team. Everybody loved playing with Steve Nash, and everybody loved playing with Jason Kidd, because they always got him the ball exactly where they wanted it, and they looked for them before they looked for their own shot. Now, in Steve Nash's case, that's a little more of a sacrifice than let's say in Jason Kidd's case, I would say. But yeah, so those guys, we could spend a lot of time talking about what a great teammate means.

Yeah. I wonder what, I think Jha is getting that reputation now as just a killer teammate. And part of it is he's the best guy on the team. But there's just something extra. And some of these guys figured out really early. And I think he's one of them. But if the team wins, he wins. Incredibly supportive. He doesn't need to have the ball all the time.

He almost consciously moves out of plays so other guys can have the ball. And you can just tell his teammates love him. Where there's other guys, you know, and admittedly, I probably read into body language too much. I mean, the worst body language right now is the Lakers. Like, I don't know if you've had the chance to see them in person lately, but it is, it's honestly like watching Desperate Housewives

in the mid-2000s or something. Like, the side eyes and the drama and all that stuff. And Memphis is kind of the opposite of that. Yeah. And I think, you know, Ja, like, when was it? A couple of weeks ago, he was going so hard selling Jaron Jackson, who really doesn't need to be sold if you pay attention. He's a pretty good player, you know?

Yeah. But that's what, again, what a good teammate does, right? I want us all to be part of this. Yeah. He's so exciting. It's really fun that they're good. James Harden, probably not in the conversation. He's our great

teammate right now. I would say Kyrie Irving. Another one, probably not. But weird, Kyrie has a stranglehold over his teammates and it's almost like they get Stockholm Syndrome with him. It seems like he's light. They kind of revere his talent

and maybe that's part of the teammate thing. But I was really interested to see how the Nets kind of stuck by him and then stuck up for him last weekend, especially KD. I mean, KD, we could psychoanalyze that Kyrie relationship forever. Right.

But I think now, I think everybody feels like now this is sort of a little bit ridiculous, this whole New York vaccination quandary. Don't you? I mean, it's kind of, I'm sticking up for Kyrie on this too. At this point, it's now, should they have him go in the locker room after the game? Not very smart, but it does feel a little silly now that he can go to the game and sit courtside next to a bunch of other people that aren't wearing a mask either. I mean, it does seem a little weird, doesn't it? Well, I think it says where we are after two years that when people are siding with Kyrie

Irving, you know, things have gone haywire. Mr. Flat Earth. Now people are like, Kyrie, just let the guy play. Yep. Kind of in the right. I mean, you know, I was thinking about how part of like his whole thing was he didn't trust anything, right? And it's like,

I don't want to get the vaccines. I don't trust this. This is my body. And everybody's like, you're selfish. I can't believe you're doing this. And now all these months later, it's like,

you know, probably should have gotten the vaccine to play with his teammates and be safer and to reduce his risk of death. But the fact that he didn't trust something might not have been the wrong instinct, you know, at least a little bit. It's just interesting how it's circled around. In September and October, he was being treated like he was an absolute maniac. And I don't feel like that's the case anymore.

It probably never should have been the case because, I mean, whether you agree, I mean, I agreed with people taking the precautions that were outlined that our government decided on that our world decided on to get people healthy. Me too. But, but I also always understood the right for someone I have there. I'm sure you did. I had some close friends that would not get vaccinated. They just wouldn't because they felt like it's my body and I don't trust this. I don't believe in it. Why are you going to make me put this in my body? And I understood that point of view. I didn't agree with it, but I understood it. So anyway. I felt the same way. I understood it. I didn't understand why somebody would increase the chances that they could die. Seemed crazy to me, but I also understood

the mistrust. And I think weirdly Kyrie out of all the athletes became the focal point for this because there were football guys too that I don't think got it that we didn't talk about. But for, you know, like always with this stuff, the basketball players seem to have this outsized influence, which is one of the things your podcast hit, but football is a much more popular sport. And yet I think the basketball players are way more important with just the day-to-day stuff. And I don't really understand why. I don't know if it's social media, if it's, you know, them commercials, what is it? I'll tell you why it's because there's five of them on the court at the same time. And none of them are wearing

helmets and pats. That's why they They're instantly recognizable. Like Randy Gregory today pulled like this really crazy thing, right? Randy Gregory was supposed to re-sign with the Dallas Cowboys and went instead to the Broncos. How many casual fans can, if you put a picture of Randy Gregory on their screen, would say,

oh, that's Randy Gregory. Not many. And yet he's a dominant defensive player. Right. You put Kyrie Irving on the screen. Everybody knows who Kyrie Irving, what he looks like. There's five of them on the court and they're in their underwear, as Bob Cousy likes to say. We're running around in our underwear. Of course, everyone knows what we look like.

So I really think that's it. I've always thought that's why basketball players resonate or people remember them because they're right there for you to see. There's no mistake in them, really. Unless you're John Stockton who walked around Barcelona and nobody knew he was on the dream team. They thought he was the trainer. Yeah. And actually, by the way,

the trainer, Ed Lissert, everyone thought he was John Stockton. So there you go. It's been an interesting year for criticism with NBA stars because on the one hand, you have Kyrie that I think people, for the most part, were really against and he took a lot of shit. Um, then you had the Ben Simmons part where he was about to

take a ton of shit, but then the mental health thing came into play and then there was this hands off thing and now it feels like he's veering toward probably taking shit again. If he tries to get his money back from Philly, right? Then you have the Westbrook piece, who is one of the three or four most expensive guys in the league who, you know, came to LA and acted like he was a superstar in the big three. Like, he bought into all that,

and he bought into them coming home, we're going to win a title. And he's been one of the worst guys in the league that plays 30 minutes a game. Like, really, I tried to figure it out today. He's having one of the worst guys in the league that plays 30 minutes a game. Like, like really, I tried to figure it out today. He's having one of the worst offensive seasons for somebody with his usage rate. His bank, like he's, I honestly shouldn't be playing. And then he comes out last week and it's like, this is bad.

They're calling me Westbrook. My family's in danger. And then that turns into a whole thing. I do feel like people should have the right to criticize him and feel upset that their favorite team has this guy who makes 44 million a year who has stunk and who doesn't seem to A, take accountability for how he's playing and then B, try to change how he's playing. And yet even that turns into this. So it's like, so where are we in sports in 2022 where we can't be critical past a certain point of certain athletes? I think what it is, is that athletes have figured out that if they humanize themselves,

as Russell Westbrook did last week, then people look at you a little differently. Yeah. Right. So I think people always looked at Westbrook, even when he was great, when he was an MVP and a triple-double machine. He was a guy that was contrary, that would push back against people whose questions he thought were dumb or questions he didn't like or narratives he didn't agree with. And he had no qualms about doing that. So he was a guy that was viewed, I think, as a strong personality. Not everybody liked him. So this is the first time that Russell Westbrook seems sort of human.

He's talking about his kids at school and what they're going through. And I've always thought for pro athletes and everybody, really that once you become humanized, everybody's like, Oh wait, yeah, I'm trashing this guy on Twitter. I didn't realize like his kids upset at school.

I think it just makes you state, oh, okay, wait a minute. Maybe I should back off a little bit. So I think, and I don't think this is why Russell Westbrook said this or did this, but I actually think it's created some sympathy

that's probably never, ever been there before for him. Well, I was thinking about it because the other piece of it is he's in OKC from the moment he gets drafted, right? And then when KD leaves and Russ stays and has the MVP season and it's kind of, he basically becomes like this star of his own. Yeah, but almost like the star of a high school.

You know, it's like this town and he owns the town and he's the guy. And so it's just love, love, love, love. They're defending him. Right, but he did right by them too. You know, he did right by the community. He did right by the team and he did right by his teammates. He really did.

Well, on top of it, they're defending him because he becomes a little polarized during that MVP season. How good is he? His team's not winning. He's the ball all the time. because he becomes a little polarized during that MVP season. How good is he? His team's not winning. He's the ball all the time. And it's a little like what happened with the Laker fans and Kobe in the mid 2000s, where it's now becomes us against them. And for the OKC fans, it's Russ is us. So, so he's just unconditional love, people overlooking his faults, making excuses for him, goes to Houston. They change what their team is, you know,

within half a year to just try to get him to succeed. They trade Capella. Then that ends pretty quickly. Then Harden's like, get me out of here. They trade him to Washington. Washington's grateful to even be decent. So he's a good experience there. This Lakers thing was the first time he really had a spotlight on him for his faults. And at the same time was getting worse as a player and was on the wrong team. So I can understand how his head must be like, oh my God, like my whole world's crashing down. But at the same time, when you're making $44 million, you're playing for the most famous franchise we have other than maybe the Celtics. Like that's what you signed up for, you know?

Yeah. But if you're Russell Westbrook, it never occurred to you it wasn't going to work out. Because these great players, it's all positive self-talk. They believe they're the greatest and they're going to prove it to you. If you want to go by strictly numbers, I don't have Westbrook's numbers in front of me. They're bad.

Yeah, they're bad, but in terms of points per game, I don't know. What's the average? Do you have it there? I don't know if you have it there. Yeah, he's like 18, 7, and 7, something like that.

See what I mean? So if you're him, you're like, that's almost triple-double. What the hell's your problem? Well, we know what the problem is. We know that those numbers, the shooting percentages,

where those assists lead, those kind of things. The true shooting is atrocious. The true shooting percentage is... The turnovers. And that doesn't even really count as defense where he's the biggest liability of his entire game.

And we haven't even talked about his career statistics at the end of tight games. Yep. When things matter and you got to make a big shot. Yeah. So that's why numbers don't lie.

Yeah, they do. They lie every single day, all the time. You can manipulate numbers for your benefit or for your detriment, any way you'd like. That's just the truth of the game. Well, I'm sure you've covered a bunch of people over the years that used to be great, or used to be stars, or used to be influential players that had now hit the point where they weren't anymore, but they're the last ones to realize it. This is like one of the things that makes the NBA the NBA.

Yeah, but I would say that about almost every superstar. I would say that about Larry Bird. I would say that about Michael Jordan because I was around them both at the end and it was not fun. Let me tell you, it was not fun. Now, both of them had physical limitations, particularly Larry, obviously,

but they still believe they're the best. And that's why they always have been the best. So some of the greatest of all time. And you know, that's what's so interesting to me about LeBron because, I mean, he's in like a category now, he's all now, all these career statistics that no one else, the 10,000, I mean, that's an incredible feat. And I'm watching him and I don't love his body language. Sometimes I don't love a lot of it, but look what he's doing. He's still doing it. Now his team isn't winning, but are we going to point to him? I don't think so. I'm not. I'm not pointing to him. He's playing out of position. Right. He's playing with probably the worst possible roster for him.

Too many minutes. His knees are starting to go. Russell and I talked about this on Sunday. It does have shades of that Kobe stretch when he just started playing 48-minute games. Right. It's a bad idea. And started revving the engine. This is not the point of your career to do that.

But yeah, LeBron, it still feels like he can get 30-35 against any team at any point. That part is not the point of your career to do that. But yeah, LeBron, it still feels like he can get 30 to 35 against any team at any point. And that part is not gone yet. And his, like the one thing I've always admired about LeBron is the personal will. Just like if it's a big game, for whatever reason in his mind, you know, and that's why Jordan was so great too,

because he could do this, whether it's real or imagined. And you put it into overdrive, and they get locked into something, and you can't. I mean, it doesn't matter if LeBron shoots the ball poorly, because he impacts the game in so many other ways. And that's what great players do. Where do you see it playing out with the Lakers, like long-term? Oh, he's not staying there.

Yeah, I mean, come on. But he's stuck there next year, under contract. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Maybe it's better for everybody, for them both to move on from each other. I don't think that's too crazy to propose for both sides. You know, LeBron, when LeBron's decided he's done,

I can't imagine it's going to be that fun to have him there. He's already, you know, there's all sorts of subliminal suggestions about the coach, the GM, you know, all of that stuff. And I don't know who survives and who doesn't. I haven't really been plugged into the Lakers recently to give you any insight knowledge of that. But I just wouldn't be surprised if he moves on.

And it's just that little passive aggressive stretch that he had during the All-Star where he's pumping up Sam Presti, talking about his son. I feel so bad for his son. My God know are we sure he's an NBA prospect I are we I mean I hope he is for his sake you know but all that stuff was just it's pretty I mean he wasn't one of the top four players at Sierra Canyon this year one of the best schools but I mean it doesn't mean he can't be but I just the pressure just is so immense. I just can't imagine why that's happening, but that's just me as a parent,

I guess. I am 100% with you on this. I don't think it's a great idea to pump up your kids when, if you don't need to. Why put the pressure on them? The kid's like 17.

It's hard enough. Yeah, it's hard enough. Although maybe this is a different era. Who knows? I think it is. I'm the same person who had my kid on my podcast three weeks ago talking about euphoria. So maybe I'm not one to judge.

No, but I did think that. I think it would be far-fetched for his son to come out of college after a year and be in the NBA based on what we've seen so far. Could he three years in college and come in? Yeah based on what we've seen so far. Could he three years in college and come in? Yeah, absolutely. Can't write that off. And he's certainly like he's 62, he's athletic. But by that time, if it's like three years in college comes in, then LeBron's going to be in his early forties at that point. Right. And if it is the first year out of college and he is joining a team because it means LeBron is coming with him. Well, how does that help your son's future?

I just don't want that. And how does it necessarily help the team if LeBron's 40 at this point? I guess the Brady thing is teaching us, just remove the ceiling of what you thought was possible and how long. 100%. Brady's 45 this year. What was stunning was he comes back and nobody's even saying, well, he's too old. This might not work.

Like people just, until he sucks, then people are just penciling in good Brady seasons now. And I kind of feel like LeBron has hit that point too. The difference is the knees. The knees with basketball are the one thing that, when they go, they go. I don't care who you are. I don't care how much money you can spend on

all these things that he spends money on. Right. Well, and you can't protect LeBron. Like, the NFL protects Tom Brady. Not just Tom Brady. All the quarterbacks. They protect him. LeBron James is playing the way he plays, which is hard, which is physical. No one's going to protect you.

So eventually, you figure it's got to catch up. We're going to take a break, and then I want to talk icons. But also, we got to get your take on Harden and Embiid, whether we like this or not. All right. This episode is brought to you by Movember.

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I've been obsessed with watching the 76ers since they made the trade. So what'd you think about that game last night then? What'd you think? I mean, did you think something different in the first quarter than you did in the third quarter? I think teams are trying to run on them. Durant said it after the game over the weekend and you saw Denver trying to do it yesterday too. They're trying to move the pace and they feel like Harden's not always going to get back

and Embiid is a big guy and you just want to make him run and see if you can tire him out in the fourth. And I don't know. Now, in the playoffs, things slow down, right? And that things might change. It gets a little more tense and that is more favorable to them.

But it would be concerning to me if I was a Philly fan that teams seem like they already have a real strategy against them. You know, and then the Harden piece of he had the key turnover again against Denver last night. You know, a minute left threw the ball away.en piece of, he had the key turnover again against Denver last night. A minute left, threw the ball away. That piece of it and how many mulligans he gets with the Philly fans

before they start looking at each other and go, wait a second. This guy's awesome when we're up 20 against Charlotte. But this is now the seventh time in a big game. So that part's interesting too. But yeah, they seem slow to me. What was your take? Well, and Embiid hit the floor, I don't know how many times, six, seven.

Every time he does that, I'm like, oh my God, there goes their season. And one of them was bad. It looked like he broke his tailbone. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, and Embiid's on a mission. I know Joel pretty well, I feel, just as a player,

watching and listening to him talk. He wants all of this in the worst way. If someone said to me, pick the one superstar that wants to win a championship more than anybody, it's not James Harden. It's Joel Embiid.

Definitely not James Harden. Well, yeah, but list anybody else you want. Carmelo Anthony. No, it's Joel or Chris Paul even. It's Joel Embi Yeah. Well, yeah. But I don't list anybody else you want. Carmelo Anthony. No, it's Joe or Chris Paul. It's Joe LNB. It just is. Really? You have him over Chris Paul?

Chris Paul would be my number one, I think. I just and I don't know if it's sustainable how much he's like locked into it the way I mean, Chris Paul's been waiting his entire career. Joe LNB hasn't been around long enough. So it's not even fair to compare the two in terms of the urgency of it or the significance of it for their legacy, all that. Although I think Chris Paul's legacy is pretty secure at this point. But just watching him in that game last night, he didn't want to just win that game.

He wanted to dominate Nikola Jokic. He wants to be the MVP. And by the way, I have no problem with that. I have no problem with that. And I thought when Embiid's playing the way he was playing, I think Philly is very, very dangerous. Except, and we talked about this, Bill, before they made the deal, what would they give up to get Harden?

And they gave up the stuff that we didn't want them to give up. And starting with Seth Curry. I think they really, I'm with it. They met, they really miss him. Yeah, they do.

And you know, Danny Green was, he, I think, oh, for five last night. It reminded me of the Danny Green. Remember the post season with Toronto and could not make a shot.

That's all I could. And I only took five shots last night. So that's not really fair. But Danny Green has these stretches where it just goes away from him. So I was thinking more about, not so much about Harden, but what was missing because Harden was there. And Harden's numbers, I don't have them in front of me, but I know they're bad. I mean, his shooting percentage has been very poor the last five, six games or whatever. So we haven't seen Harden at his best with the Sixers. I think a vintage Harden with a vintage Embiid is scary.

And I think they have a chance to win, but we haven't seen that yet. And there's 15 games left or 14 games left. It's almost soup. Let's go here. There's an urgency. There's an urgency that I don't feel with Philadelphia that if I were the Sixers, I would want to feel. We don't have time, guys. Let's go.

Let's kick this in. It's really hard to figure out your team on the fly like this. That's one thing as I've gotten older. I always feel, and in podcasts I've done with different players where they always talk about that, that there's this shorthand that you just develop over the course of a couple years. And I actually think that's been a big advantage for the Celtics this year

because the guys on that team have been together for a long time. You know, whereas you look at Philly, that team's honestly been thrown together. And there's a combo of guys. Yeah, year after year. Guys who haven't been in big situations yet,

removing Simmons and kind of the identity that they had with him for better and worse for a few years. And now that shifts to Maxie for three months, but now it's Harden. Now it's Harden and Maxie trying to figure out how to coexist. Now it's Embiid trying to figure out

how to play with Harden. It's everybody trying to adjust with Harden, who, by the way, doesn't play that hard sometimes and doesn't get back on defense, doesn't defend. And so to just figure that, as you said, there's 15 games left. We're going to be in the playoffs a month from now. And that know-how, I watch Miami and that's a team that some of the pieces have been together a while. And then a couple like Lowry just got there this year, but it's a team that feels like they're all on the same page. I watched Toronto,

which is, they have some old-timers, but then, you know, Scotty Barnes, who's becoming one of my favorites. Isn't he great? That team has an identity. Like, they played the Lakers last night.

I think they were only four-point favorites. And I'm like, they're going to try so much harder than the Lakers. Like, like, so you took that bet.

Are you telling me you took that bet? I might've bet it. Well, I might've parlayed them with Philly. Um, I thought yesterday was going to be Philly's breakout. I was wrong, but Toronto knows who they are.

Like, they're like, look, you might be bigger than us. You might have slightly more talent, but we're going to try harder than you. And that's who we are. Well, and not only that, but we're going to try harder than you. And that's who we are. Well, and not only that,

because I've talked to guys about this too. And what it really comes down to is when it's a tight game in a post-season game and there's three minutes to go and it's a key possession, you don't have to think about what's going to happen because you know what that guy's going to do and you know where he's going to go.

And you know, if you pass it to him in the corner, he's going to up fake ones and he's going to hit you here. And there's a familiarity in critical moments that you cannot manufacture on the fly. I believe that. And so that's why I want to say that right now. The Phoenix is always they have the best know-how of anybody. Well, they do. And, you know, it's why you worry about Brooklyn, because if you look at their talent and I do think Kyrie is going to end up playing, I do. And you put him in there and you and you get those guys together. Talent wise, it's it's stunning how good they are, but they don't have the muscle memory that so many of these other teams have. And and, you know, you look at the Bucs last year and everybody was like, well, they, you know, they started slow.

They don't want to come out too fast. All this stuff that everyone's talking about. All they were really doing was just developing that muscle memory and that second nature. And Drew Holiday was new to that. Right. So it took Drew Holiday a while. We watched him literally grow up before our eyes. I don't mean in terms as a player, but in terms as a part of that team and

what they were trying to accomplish. We watched him evolve through the course of the season and then into the playoffs. And then when that happens, you can win a championship. That's why I was like Miami, Jimmy Butler, Bam out of bio. You know, they've had injuries. They've had things up and down. I do worry about Duncan Robinson. I do worry about that. Which the piece that he's been marginalized. I just I just don't think he's the piece said he's been marginalized? I just don't think he's had the kind of year. I thought Duncan Robinson was going to keep going. You know? And he's got to

find out. He's got to be able to... Honestly, he's not one of their five best players. He isn't right now. And I don't think there's a roadmap for that to happen this season. Well, not this season. But if I were Duncan Robinson, I'd spend all summer learning to shoot off the dribble, like do other things because he was such a weapon for them.

But people have figured that out, you know? Well, he's, my guess is he'll be traded this summer. He's got a pretty big contract, but a tradable contract and something. Because he's not one, they've learned that he's not one of their best five and that's just the way it goes. Yeah. So that's a team I've had the hardest trouble trying to figure out what I think.

I've watched a ton of basketball since football and it like, I'm really trying to, I'm so excited for these playoffs and Miami is kind of the, I have a feel for all the East teams of Miami is kind of that ceiling basement team where... Wild card. I don't trust Lowry and Butler to 100% be healthy for four rounds.

I think Lowry's old, and Butler, just over and over again, he's out for this reason or that reason or the other reason. And I don't know. I think these playoffs are going to be really hard. And that's why I kind of... after that Celtics-Dallas game, which just showed the spotlight on all the flaws that Celtics have.

But I like that they're young. I like that they're going to be able to at least get through three rounds and they'll have legs and they're not going to be beaten up. Whereas I look at Philly with Harden and Bede or the Lowry-Butler combo, I think this is going to be beaten up. Whereas I look at Philly with Harden and Bede or, you know, the Lowry Butler combo. I do. I think this can be a really hard playoffs. See, I think if I look at Miami, I look at Tyler Hero. That's who I look at. And he's streaky, as you know. Yeah, he's had he's had a really great year, I think. And when he's going and strong and got fearless and the curl and shooting all those shots, He opens up everything for everybody else. I think he's the key to their whole postseason. But is that good or bad that he's the key to

their whole postseason? I'm not positive, but I trust him. Yeah. Well, it's bad. It is bad. But that's my point. That's why when you look at Miami, they're almost, I just always go back to Miami. They really thought they might have a shot at Giannis. I mean, go back to that. Think about that. They really thought they had a shot at Giannis. They almost didn't re-sign Bam. Remember? I mean, they did and they did the right thing. Well, they kind of had the same agent. So that was the most telling. I wonder if they had different agents. I wonder how that plays out. I just always think about like Giannis on Miami and how that would have changed everything.

And I'm so glad that Giannis did what he did before. Speaking of great teammates. Oh yeah, Giannis. There might not be a better teammate on this earth right now in the NBA than Giannis Antetokounmpo. Jokic too. We should have mentioned Jokic. Yeah, Jokic is another great one.

Yeah, we missed a couple. But Jokic is funny in that he's kind of like a, I don't want to say above it all, but he's kind of like, I wouldn't say above it all, but he's kind of like not into all the NBA gossip and NBA, like MVP, okay. You know, I mean, he deserved it last year. He deserves it this year if he wins again. But there's plenty of other people that do too. So, yeah, but Giannis to me, just again, and some of the reporting I did for this podcast series,

really what shone through was, I don't know, should I say this now? Should we talk about it? Or I don't know. Should I tell you the story right now? Save it for when we'll come back after a break and we'll dive into it. We'll start with the Gianna story.

Okay. I was thinking about you last night, watched that Denver game, how, because you haven't written now. I mean, you've written for this podcast, because you haven't written now. I mean, you've written for this podcast, but you haven't written a feature. Bones Highland was like the prototypical Jackie feature. Oh, man.

I love that kid. That's like everything you like in a feature. Plus like, I loved his quotes after. Everything about him. Oh, my God. Where he was like, I've been, I'm not afraid of any situation from where I came from. Like he does that thing

and you actually believe him as he's saying it. It's like, I'm not scared. Put me in whatever game. I will not be afraid. I promise you. He jumped out of the second floor

window of his house. He was on fire for God's sake. Yeah. That dude. And he falls to 26. And it's just, and all the people who know stuff are like, watch out for that guy.

And now he's starting to have an impact. All right. So maybe you caught me. Every once in a while, I have a little twinge and that was one of them. Bones was a good one. Yeah.

Yeah, you got me. I also, there's a Robert Williams. I don't know if anyone's gotten to the bottom of the Robert Williams souffle yet. Yeah, I haven't. He's a really good teammate. The classic falls to the end of the first round,

and he's a talented kid, not sure where his head is. Yeah, a few issues. Missed his first press conference, missed the plane. Yeah, famous for just being kind of a mess behind the scenes, and now has emerged as this double-double. They're saying he's a defensive player of the year candidate. He's not, but he's... I think he could make an all-defense team potentially.

But he's another one that I don't really know that much about and I feel like he must have... There's still some good stories out there. Well, there's always great stories out there. It's just for someone else to write now. That's all. Yeah, you miss it. Bones Highland, though, you were thinking first. What's that good? I was. And Shea Gildress Alexander. That's the

other one because he's this great player on a team that no one cares about. And I think he's a truly great player. Yeah. And I think there's a story there, too. But someone else is going to have to write him. All right. We're devoting five minutes to this. Then we're taking a break. And you're talking about Icons Club. The Boston Celtics. Yes, sir. We have five minutes. Kyle, put us on a clock. Five minutes. That game on Sunday where

they took out Tatum, which is what you should do when you play the Celtics if you have a good enough defense. You have somebody like Finney Smith that you can actually throw on them and some help all that stuff. And all of a sudden, Marcus Smart is really involved the last five minutes. And I love Marcus Smart. He's been amazing this season, especially the last 25 games. But you're watching these playoff games where now he has the ball in a close game with two minutes left deciding what's going to happen.

I'm watching it going, this is kind of the destiny of this team against the right opponent in the playoffs where they're just going to steer everything away from Tatum. Now, I talked to my dad the next day and he was mad. He thought Tatum had the ball from too far away that they should have gotten him the ball closer to the basket so they couldn't have double teamed them inside. I think they'll fix some of this stuff.

But the fundamental issue is, who's the second guy if they're taking out Tatum? Because you have these other great teams like Phoenix and Milwaukee go through. Everybody's got at least the second guy if they're taking out Tatum? Because you have these other great teams like Phoenix and Milwaukee go through. Everybody's got at least the second guy. Even Dallas, if you're just going to double Luka, they still have guards who can do stuff. So what does Boston do?

Well, in theory, everyone's going to point to Jalen Brown. But you and I have had some off-air conversations about Jalen Brown that are interesting. I mean, Jalen Brown is an obvious talent. We're stating the obvious. 23 points a game. Can go to the basket.

I love it when he goes downhill, goes in traffic, you know, can finish now, all of that. But there's just one thing about Jalen Brown that bothers me. And I watch him a lot. I watch the Celtics a lot. It's his core awareness, his awareness of the time, the place, and the moment. And I can't remember which game it was,

and it didn't cost them. It was one of the run-of-the-mill games in the last month. He had the ball. He thought he had a guy, so he was thinking about it. You know, he's dribbling. He's going. He's moving. They're playing good defense. And the shot clock's running down. And then all of a sudden, there's three seconds left on the shot clock. And he's like, oh, my God. So he throws it to, like, I guess Marcus Smart in the corner.

Somebody else's problem. Right. Yeah. And then Marcus Smart makes a quick, hurried pass to Jason Tatum. And by the way, Jason Tatum hits a three at the buzzer in this particular play, and I can't remember which game it was. I apologize. And bails them out.

And so it was a three, and everyone's clapping. But the whole time I'm going is like, what the hell is Jalen Brown doing? So if you want to talk about how far the Celtics are going to go, Jalen Brown has to find a way to understand the moment better. That's my opinion. So am I telling you I'm going to give the ball to Jalen Brown? Some of the time I am. But every time, I don't know.

That's my answer. My dad loves Jalen Brown, but at the same time, he's like, the guy can't really dribble. It's like we can't run plays for him in the last three minutes. Cause he might not be able to keep the ball. That's weird. He's in a hurry. He's in a hurry.

Again, he's averaging 23 a game. And I think, I think he's one of the 30 best guys in the league. But if you're talking about, Oh, they're taking out Tatum. And now we have these four on three situations or,

you know, lopsided sides of the court, whatever, he should be destroying that by now. And maybe that's, you talked about our heroes, kind of the swing guy for Miami. To me, it's, it's, it's Jalen. And it's not just like, it's not just like, Oh, Jalen had 23 today. He was fine. It's not that it's what you're talking about. It's last five minutes of the game. His problem solving, which is something that you and I really worried about with Tatum forever. And then the last two, three months, the game slowed down for him and you could see he started to really

figure it out. And I haven't totally seen that with Jalen yet. No, and I don't know if we will. I think the thing that has impressed me most about Tatum is those double teams. He waits that extra second now they're coming and he waits just long enough to then get rid of it so that you can exploit that double team coming. Whereas before he either waited too long or he got rid of the ball too quickly and the double team hadn't even fully come yet. And that's a little thing that turns into a big thing because if your teammates, like Derek White, who I love as an addition to the team,

keeps swinging that ball, you know, Derek White, I don't know what the numbers, again, numbers lie. If you look at his numbers, I don't know what his assist total is. I do not care. He is moving the ball. And I don't care if it's always the hockey assist

or the actual assist. He is the guy that instinctively says, let's keep the ball moving. The thing, my dad and I talked about him the other day too, because he may have kind of lost confidence in him that game because he wasn't hitting shots. Yeah, but to me, that's, I mean, it's great if he hits shots, but that's not why they got him, is it?

No, to me, that exact game is why they made the white trade where you have this other team that's got Luka and Brunson and I'm blanking, Dinwiddie. And you have to go small to match up with them because they got these two smaller guards. And white just has to be out there. They're going to have lineups for, Kyle just said we're five minutes.

I'm almost done. They're going to go against these lineups in all three rounds where there's going to be small lineups said we're five minutes. I'm almost done. They're going to go against these lineups in all three rounds where there's going to be small lineups. Like let's say they play Brooklyn. Brooklyn's going to have Kyrie and Curry out there together. Yeah. White's going to have to play.

And if you're only playing white, like 15, 17 minutes a game in these, in these, uh, pivotal playoff games or whatever, pivotal games, whatever. And you feel like you can't trust him. Then that trade's a bad trade because they gave up a first round pick this year and they gave up the pick with the top one protected pick spot. And it's like, if I'm giving up all of that,

this fucking guy better be able to play when the other team goes small more than like 15 minutes, you know? And even like, they could have gotten Dinwiddie for nothing if they wanted to, right? They wouldn't have to give up any first round pick. I'd rather, I'd rather, I'd rather have Derek White. I would too. So let's play him. Let's see what we have. All right. That's our, that's our Celtics five minutes. When we come back, we're going to talk about Icons Club.

All right. Icons Club premiering on Friday on the Book of Basketball podcast, eight episodes. You were going to tell your Gianna story that would kind of show why we, an example of why we did this podcast. Okay, sure. Yeah. So we were talking about whether, who are the best teammates. So everybody remembers Jacob Blake. He gets shot seven times in the back. Police officer from Kenosha, Wisconsin. Milwaukee Bucks based in Wisconsin. Sterling Brown and George Hill in particular just torn up over this. George Hill had said the day before,

I don't even know why we're playing these games. Remember, he got kind of criticized for that a little bit. So he's in the locker room and he's like, you know, he's really at his wits end. Sterling Brown says, I'm with you, man. I don't think we should play. So they go into the locker room. And I think Sterling Brown stood up first, said, I'm with George Hillier. You know, we shouldn't be playing. This is more important. And the first thing that happened was Giannis Antetokounmpo, who was born in Greece, who did not grow up in a Black Lives Matter environment in the

United States of America, immediately understood what was happening with his team and said, I stand with these guys. Let's not play. And as Sterling Brown told me for this pod, if he doesn't stand up right away like that, who knows what happens? Who knows what the vote is? Who knows if we vote not to play? Giannis understood the moment, embraced the moment and said, I'm standing with my teammates who, I mean, his stature compared to theirs as basketball players is night and day. But that wasn't what mattered in that moment. And Sterling Brown said, if Giannis didn't stand up and do that, I don't know what would have happened. So that's just an example of what we're talking about, being a great teammate.

Yeah, and the relationship of superstars to teams, to each other, to the league, that's really what we're doing. Yeah, and player empowerment. And, you know, don't forget, 1968, Martin Luther King is assassinated. And Wilt is playing for Philly. And Russell's playing for the Celtics.

And they're supposed to play in a playoff game the next day. And both teams are voting. And, you know, Celtics are in there. They're talking about Wayne Embry talks to us for the podcast, talks about watching the rioting on TV with Bill Russell. And they're both in tears. And they don't want to play. They're going to vote not to play.

And then what happens is the league officials come in and say, look, what the mayors of both cities are telling us is if you do play, it might quell some of the rioting. It might be a show of unity for black people in this country if you play this game. Now, let's also not mistake. It was a nationally televised game, which didn't happen a whole lot for the NBA. So there were other things at work. OK, let's not be completely Pollyanna about it. But what ended up happening was,

Russ decided, maybe we should play. So they vote to play. Wilt's in the other locker room with his guys, and they're talking about whether or not to play. Hal Greer's like, man, this doesn't feel right. I don't think we should play, but it feels like it's too late not to at this point. Wilt votes no, but the Sixers vote to play for the same reasons the Celtics did,

for unity purposes or whatever. But meanwhile, they're talking about it with their owners, with the league commissioner, with television. They're all consulting these guys and they vote to play. They do play the game, but then the league takes the extraordinary step of postponing those games over the next three days, the rest of the games, so that Wilt and Russell can go and march to Ebenezer Church with Jim Brown and all the black leaders. And so what we're trying to show in this pod is like all these years later, 52 some odd years later, the Milwaukee Bucks, they're not talking to Adam Silver. They're not talking to Mark Lazzari, who is one of the owners of the Bucks. They're not talking to their players association. They're in the locker room and they're like, yeah. Giannis is like, yep. Hey, you guys don't want to play. Guess what? We're not playing.

And they weren't condemned for it. They were applauded for it. And it's just that's sort of what we're trying to show us. How does it get to that point where Sterling Brown and George Hill and Giannis Antetokounmpo can have this moment. Well, that's because it all started back when Wilt and Russ all the way back in the 60s did what they did. So that's the premise of the pod, is to just over eight episodes show you the evolution of these icons and how each of them passed on something else to the other so that they could grow in their next generation.

Yeah, and it starts with the Russell-Wilt relationship. It really does. They're the OGs. They're the OGs, man. Yeah, and even that story you told about MLK, when I got to spend the whole day at Russell's house doing that documentary with him, which was probably the career highlight I've had,

and asking him about that. And he tells the story, and when he finished the story, I thought he was saying it was a good decision that they played because they were telling him like, hey, we're really worried there might be some rioting. Like if you guys play it, I'll take everybody's mind off this. Right.

And I think I said something like, so you're glad you played then? And he was like, no, I don't know about that. And you could see like, it was all these years later, it was like 44 years later, he still didn't know if they made the right call. Can I tell you, Bill, we use that sound in the podcast. Oh, cool. We used you interviewing Bill Russell and asking that question because you're absolutely correct

in what you're saying. All these years later, he still wasn't sure they did the right thing. Yeah, who knows? But it really starts with that 64 All-Star game, which I know we hit that. We hit a lot of the benchmarks. But the thing that, and the reason you were the right person to do this is because I think you've probably spent more time thinking about the relationship between the superstars,

probably more time than anybody. I mean, you did the Magic and Bird book, and we've seen over the years this evolve. But the MJ-Kobe thing was kind of the stealth friendship that I don't feel like anybody... What was the year that you found out that that was the thing?

So it was Kobe's last year. Kobe's final year with the Lakers. And, you know, Kobe and I went up and down as he did with many writers, right, during the course, because we had to all say and write some pretty difficult things along the way with Kobe, especially with Eagle Colorado and all that. So it was his final year and he was coming to Boston like he always does. And I said, hey, what if we hang out a little bit? He's like, sure, let's do it. So we met at the Ritz, the Ritz, no, the Four Seasons. I'm sorry, the Four Seasons. And I remember that because we were having lunch and the lunch ended up a lot longer than because the interview lasted a long time. And he's like, you're cutting into

my nap. And we were joking about that. And as he was going out to have his snack, Lamar Odom came in with like five shopping bags full of clothes and Kobe was really ticked off at him because he had been out late, really, the night before and he's like, I told you to nap. You're supposed to be napping. And Lamar's got clothes all from Newberry Street. That's just an aside. But anyway.

But so, what he was telling me, I was asking him to just sort of take me on a journey. Here he is. He's ending up. This is his last time in Boston. And he was talking about all these people that he tapped into during the course of his career to learn from them. And he talked about calling Russell and talking about the art of war techniques that Russell used on Will Chamberlain. He called Dr. J, of course, who he knew because his dad had played with him briefly on the Sixers. He talks about calling Larry Bird on the golf course and asking him about mental tenacity and having to challenge your teammates. And he's going, Kimo Lajo and all the way on down the line. And then he gets to Jordan and he starts telling me, well, everybody thinks it was that all-star game that Jordan and I became close. It was the game before that when we played against him and I had a good game and I had no turnovers. And that's what he was talking to me about. And he says to Kobe, if you ever need anything, call me. Well, Bill, that's what Bill Russell

said to a 19-year-old Julius Irving at UMass. If you ever need anything, just call me. That's what Julius Irving said to a Michael Jordan, a 21 year old Michael Jordan. If you ever need anything, just call me. And now this is what Michael Jordan says to Kobe Bryant. And he didn't say it to hardly anybody else, but he did say it to Kobe. And so then this relationship starts where he's calling him in the middle of the night. They're going over moves. They're going about playing bigger players in the post. And he's telling me all me all this and i'm just like in utter shock he's also telling me all about his relationship with michael jackson which we don't have enough time for that's a whole nother thing these two michaels that were like his his linchpins so when i so when i got done with this

interview i like i got a hold of jordan and i'm like hey is this like this is not the jordan i knew this jordan i do didn't share and knew. The Jordan I knew didn't share, didn't ask anybody for anything, didn't share anything with anybody. Well, he wanted to destroy everybody. Yeah, and so I'm like, is this true? And he's like, yeah, yeah, it is. So I wrote this, you know,

I wrote this story about Kobe and Jordan's quoted in it and Bird. I got all the guys, they're all quoted in it. And I don't know, some people read it. I guess some people didn't, you know. But then Kobe died. And then there's Jordan at the funeral. And, you know know, some people read it. I guess some people didn't, you know, but then Kobe died. And then there's Jordan at the funeral and, you know, he's the meme, right? He's can't even control himself. He's so upset. He's crying so hard and he's telling everybody, I don't think

people realize what great friends we were. And I was like, I did, man. I, cause Kobe sat there and told me all about it, you know? And so Kobe was so interesting because he wanted to be part of the club, right? Like that, the whole idea is this, you're in this club. How do you get in? What are the, what's the criteria? And you get in from the older members, basically reaching out to you in some way or accepting you in some way. Right. Like Dirk Nowitzki, it's funny. The first icon that really said to him, Hey, you're okay. You're like, you'll never guess in a million years. Do you want to try?

Or do you want to... Like, you'll never guess. Who is it? I don't think. Carm Malone. Really? Yeah, Carm Malone. The playoff series?

No, no, no. They're playing in a regular season game and it's when Cuban was trying to make a splash with the Mavericks. So he had Dirk, but remember he signed Dennis Rodman for like 12 or 14 games and Dennis Rodman was a complete lunatic splash with the Mavericks. So he had Dirk, but remember he signed Dennis Rodman for like 12 or 14 games, and Dennis Rodman was a complete lunatic, and he got rid of him.

So they were playing against, Dirk was playing with Dennis Rodman for that like dozen games, and Carmelode sees Dirk, and he goes up, and he goes, hey, kid, just keep doing what you're doing. You're going to be great. He goes, but whatever you do, don't listen to that guy. So anyway, but that's sort of the whole point is getting to this club. Well, when Kobe first got to the league, he thought he should already be in the club. He's 18 years old and no one's going to tell him differently. And he's playing with Shaq. And Shaq's like, yeah, little boy. No, no, no. Not your turn yet. I'm the icon on this club. You'll wait your turn. And that was Shaq's team. And those guys thought he was arrogant and immature. And they wanted nothing to do with him.

And, you know, one of the things we talk about in the podcast is they're on the bus. And Shaq used to rap on the bus. You know, he had a platinum rap album, Shaq Diesel, as you know. He had four rap albums. So he's on the bus freestyling. And he's trying to get all the other guys on the team to join in, you know. And so some of them are B Shaw and some of those guys, but you know, Kobe's not saying anything.

So Kobe goes home and he practices his own rap, you know, and he gets it all together. And so then he gets on the bus and he starts doing his rap, but it's like perfectly staccato and it's all the words rhyme perfectly. And they're all like, that's not freestyling man. And he's going, no, no, it's off the dome. It's off the dome. And they're all like, yeah, no, it isn't. They made fun of them. So he's trying to be part of the club when he's young, but nobody wants to let him in. And then he just decides, well, screw all you guys. I'm going to do it by myself,

like Jordan did. I don't need you guys. Screw you all. I'll do it by myself. But then over the course of time, he becomes perhaps the most generous icon of them all. He has the Mamba Sports Academy camp. He invites Kawhi Leonard and Paul George and Jamal Murray. He figured out how to get to all those, the Durant Westbrook generation. 100%. He won those dudes over.

Yeah. And so he became that guy. And so that's, in a lot of ways, he's sort of the essence of everything we were talking about in this. He became the guy that I think he probably always wished he had had when he was coming up. That's right. In some ways.

I think that's exactly right. So when we first started talking about this podcast, I remember when I was at the London Olympics, I read this book called The President's Club, which was all about. Great book. Yeah, really good one. All about how presidents and ex-presidents or former presidents, the relationship they had with the president that was in the office. And maybe six months later, went to see Russell. And I don't even think we had this in the documentary, but he told the story about magic.

When magic, I think it was right after the Westhead thing when they were booing him and stuff. And Russell was announcing one of the games. And he saw how upset Magic was. And he called him over and he's like, hey, you know, keep your head up. This is all you're going to have an unbelievable. And he gave him like, said like nice stuff to him. And he was like,

I just felt like I had to because I could see he was in pain and I knew he was a great player. So I was doing TV that year with Magic. And the next time we did TV, I was like, hey, Russell told me this story. And he was like,

you mean when he came and he knew exactly what I was talking about. Yeah. And I think Russell, who I think people felt like was a standoffish whatever, but I do think he was actually the opposite with the great players. And I think Russell, who I think people felt like was a standoffish whatever, but I do think he was actually the opposite with the great players.

I think he had a lot of relationships. I think he was. So let me tell you a story that's in the series. Isaiah Thomas is about to beat the Boston Celtics on their own floor, and he inbounds the ball, and Bird steals it, and passes DJ and they lose that game and they lose the series. And then he says all that stupid stuff about Larry, you know, I mean, it's like the lowest moment of his life. And he's, you know, but, but before that happens, he's sitting in his, you know, he's sitting at home and he won't talk to anybody. He's devastated. He's never had anything like this happen to him before. People are calling and he's like, I don't want to talk to anybody.

His wife comes in. She goes, you got a phone call. He goes, I told you, I'm not talking to anybody. I'm not talking to anyone. She said, I really think you want to take this call. He's like, I don't want to talk to anybody. He gets on the phone. This is Bill Russell.

You just got to get back up on the horse. You're going to be all right. You're a great player. You just keep on going. He're going to be all right. You're a great player. You just keep on going. And he says all this stuff to Isaiah and Isaiah says, and it's not like I got to say anything back because he's Bill Russell. And he's like, yep, that's all. And he hung up. Bill Russell. Bill Russell. He's going to be one of the winners of the pod. He is. Big winner. Big winner. Michael Jordan, big winner.

Oh yeah. You got a long Jordan interview. Jordan was awesome. Awesome in this thing. Awesome. Just about everything. About his relationship that he had, some of the relationships that he didn't have. You know, he, by the way, did say to LeBron James, if you ever need anything, just call. And to quote Michael Jordan, to his credit,

he never did. Little tidbit. And that one, that's a semi-icy relationship, I think. I don't think it's... LeBron was conspicuously missing from the last dance. Yeah, I don't think it's icy. I think it's... This is what I think.

I think Michael Jordan believes he's the greatest player of all time. I think LeBron James believes he's the greatest player of all time. I think LeBron James believes he's the greatest player of all time. I think each looks at the other and says, okay, you did this, but I did that. And you know, if, if, if, and if you look at it, Jordan always will have six and O in the finals, but LeBron has all these, I mean, he's going to be the greatest stat player of all time. He's going to be in the 40-10-10 club for 40K, 10K, 10K. No, right.

I mean, so, you know, for all of us who debate this, there are very hardcore reasons you could go either way. But I think this is the stuff that I think Jordan takes a tiny bit of pleasure in. We were talking about Jordan's influence on the game and, of course, the Jordan brand,

which no one's ever duplicated it. I mean, there was a year, and I don't have it in front of me, but not that long ago, Michael Jordan's shoes sold four times as many shoes as LeBron's shoes. And the dude hasn't played in over 20 years. I didn't ask Michael Jordan about Space Jam 2,

but I did go back and look at the numbers, the original Space Jam and Space Jam the sequel, all those little things. So in terms of popularity, I think Michael Jordan, in an all-time stratosphere, is probably the most well-known, most popular player ever.

But there are plenty of people that I respect that think LeBron James is the greatest player ever. And there is a very compelling case to be made for that. So within that, it's also generational. It's if you were LeBron's generation, you're going to, you're going to be more likely to defend LeBron. Yeah. But you'd be interested to know some of the old-timers that feel LeBron's the best. I'm talking about fans, not players. Yeah, yeah, fans. So I think with the two of them, when they, you know,

like they hugged at the All-Star game or the 75th thing, you know, I don't think there's animosity, but I just think there's a little bit of the... The rivalry. Yeah, yeah. And that's what this is sort of about. One of the other underlying themes

of this series that we did was you may think you're friends with someone. Like Wilt and Russell, they were great friends some of the time until they weren't. Until in 69. Isaiah and Magic. Isaiah and Magic. Yeah, I mean, Bird and Magic, really.

So there's all sorts of underlying examples of that as well. So I won't say all the players you got, and I won't say a couple of the players we weren't able to get, but we got most of the people we wanted. And I think if you like basketball, I'd be very surprised if people didn't like this. What was, did you have a biggest revelation slash thing you learned that you were just like blew your mind?

And is it even worth giving it away now? Or do you want people to hear in the podcast? It's so hard for me to say. I'm so in the weeds now with it. It's hard for me to pick one. I mean, everything Jordan said always fascinates me. Yeah, because he doesn't really talk that much. Because he doesn't talk a lot publicly.

So him talking about Kobe, really getting deep into that relationship. Him talking about LeBron and this idea that he did, him talking about Dr. J and how Dr. J reached out. Dr. J was probably in many ways for me, one of the biggest revelations because he gets left out of our history so often. Not by me. No, I know. But he's such an important person in the history of the

game, both as a player, as a, he was the first real black spokesperson, pitch man, you know? I mean, as a role model, like he didn't just do ads for Coke. He owned his own Coca-Cola bottling plant. Like when Michael Jordan was looking for the blueprint of how to become a businessman, he was looking at Dr. J. I actually, I did a podcast with him once and he actually took that a little personally that he gets left out of the whole NBA players who became businessmen narrative because he feels like he was the first one before Magic, before Michael.

He'll be very happy with this podcast. We devote an entire episode to Dr. J. And I learned a lot about him that I didn't know. And the reverence that he generates among old and new and past and present, he might be the most, I think it's, I think Bill Walton says it in the podcast that he's the most beloved and revered player of all time. Dr. J. Interesting. Well, he certainly probably made the least enemies. He did punch Larry Bird a couple of times. As the legend was being held back. So here's a tease for you. There is a little tease for you. We do have Robert Parrish in the podcast addressing this very event. Didn't jump in. And totally says Larry Bird deserved that ass whooping.

I could have stepped in, but I thought he went over the line with Dr. J and deserved everything he got. So there you go. There's a little tease. I was there and there was only one referee because the other guy got hurt and there was a ton of shit talking and Bird was torturing Dr. J and Dr. J and he talked too much shit. No question. I can't wait for this podcast, Icons Club. I know it took years off your life trying to finish it, but when it's finally up, it's all going to be worth it. I hope so. I hope everybody enjoys it. All right. Good to see you, Jackie McMullen. Thank you, Bill Simmons. All right. The busiest man at the ringer, Danny Kelly. He is shepherding our ringer draft guide

for the NFL that the draft is coming up soon. We have free agency right now and his favorite team, the Seahawks traded their quarterback. I almost had him on last week. I wanted to give him time to lick his wounds to wonder what happened. I know you've been on another podcast, but you know, I try to, you know, I try to dive deep. I might try to make you cry. How are you feeling a week later? Walk us through your emotions. I'm honestly feeling fine. I'm through the five stages of grief. I've moved to acceptance and I'm kind of excited for

the future of Seattle football. Obviously, I completely understand if this sounds spoiled, but over the last five years or so with the Seahawks, things have just gotten very stale. It feels like we knew exactly what the Seahawks were going to be every year. All the games are going to be ugly. Their defense is going to be bad. There's going to be this tension between Russell Wilson and his camp and wanting to throw more and then pete carroll

and his old school philosophy wanting to like run the ball and all that stuff all that tension between that plus it's the fans and pete carroll have that too so um and i talked to a bunch of my friends about this and like honestly i know a lot of people are disappointed that russell is gone but like there's also this weird feeling of like relief because there's like you know you don't have to worry about that tension anymore it's just like now it's pete carroll's team we know what they're gonna be we know what they're gonna want to be um and so maybe that's like just the good me like adapting to like what's happening or whatever like emotionally but that's kind of where i am now. You're in the fresh start phase.

Absolutely. But it's going to be fast. Well, you got your Super Bowl. You won a Super Bowl. You almost won two. It's unlike where some guys leave and you never actually won anything, like James Harden leaving Houston or something like that.

At least you have the Super Bowl. I have serious questions that he's as good as he used to be. And it was interesting reading some of this stuff the next few days. There was the obligatory hit piece that happened the next day with, you know, all the stuff about he kind of had checked out a little bit and, you know, didn't get along with Carol and wanted a bigger say in stuff and things like that. I guess then there's the theory that he's going to go to Denver. He's going to have the eye of the tiger, the fire lit under his ass. He's going to be absolutely awesome, which would be the worst case scenario for you. This happened to me with Roger Clemens in the mid-90s when he was a fat piece of shit for most of the time he was on his last contract.

I don't mind disparaging Clemens because he was my least favorite athlete and then like the last four months of the 96 season turned it up and then left and went to toronto and got an awesome shape and won two straight cy youngs yeah we lost our fucking minds we were so upset we were so mad it was like what the hell get the roof of your fat ass for the last contract. I don't think it'll be that kind of animosity if Wilson does well in Denver. No. But

if he starts running around and scampering around like he did in 2014, you'll feel like a twinge. It'll be a little 10%, kind of like WTF. Yeah. If he wins the MVP, imagine if he won the MVP in Denver after like, we've been complaining for 10 years about he has never once received a vote,

which I completely understand why he hasn't. But yeah. Yeah. I think it's going to be one of those situations where if they go in, if he comes into Denver and all of a sudden they literally just let him cook, you know, he, he did try,

he trademarked that term, by the way. If they go in there and let him cook and he's awesome and he just tears it up and throwing it all over the field. Like there's been short stints of that in Seattle where, you know, it's looked incredible. But by and large, it's been kind of up and down. He's been really efficient and he hasn't turned the ball over. But like, you know, fans in Seattle have been clamoring

for more, for more, for more, for years. And so if he goes into Denver immediately, just tears it up and leads the league in yards and touchdowns and stuff, I think there's probably going to be a little bit of animosity, not towards Wilson, but to Carroll and Schneider. Oh, interesting. Because of that.

It'll be the blaming the parents. For wasting this talent that we had. I also think that there's a chance that the Broncos' offense isn't going to be all that different from the Seahawks over the last 10 years. Like Wilson certainly still has some limitations in terms of like, he's not very good on third down and that can be high variance year over year, but he's been bad generally speaking for the last like five, six years. Um, part of it is now he just doesn't really run anymore. And so there's not that threat for him to do that on third down.

So teams can figure out ways to stop them. He doesn't throw over the middle of the field very often, which is also a big reason he's not very good on third down. There's some limitations to his game. I think he, like you said, he's probably in the part of his career where he's in the decline only because

he doesn't have that rushing ability that made him so, so dangerous earlier on in career that like does he not have it or does he not want to do it either those are two separate questions i think both i think he's clearly not as fast like when you watch him run he's just not as explosive he's not as sudden um he still i think can be like a scrambler tactical scrambler scrambler like in the red zone and stuff like that and we saw little shades of that um or flashes that i should say but by and large like they don't really run them anymore maybe that's by design but i also think he's just not as fast but that's that's why i'm pro the trade for seattle because i don't think he was totally the same guy anymore and i still

think he's a very good quarterback right i would be surprised if he won the MVP. To me, that would be more... I'm thinking of the other variables with that. We both like Javante Williams. He's in the running for most improperly used guy from last season. And there's a world where he's fucking awesome. Judy comes back. Sutton's there. He has real weapons. where he's fucking awesome. Judy comes back. Sutton's there. And they just,

he has like real weapons. Not that he didn't in the Seahawks because he had two really good receivers. But he never, as good as his running backs were, they were a certain kind of running back. He never had a guy like Javante Williams that I can remember in Seattle. Can you?

Well, going back to Lynch, like Javante Williams is sort of Marshawn Lynch-like, you know, and his ability to break tackles and stuff. So I'd say going back to Lynch like he Javante Williams is sort of Marshawn Lynch like, you know, and his ability to break tackles and stuff. So I'd say going back to Lynch. That's but you're going back eight years at this point. Yeah, exactly. You know, Chris Carson's not like that. I think Chris Carson's a good running back, but yeah, he's certainly not the same players, right?

He's not in the same realm or whatever of like a Javante Williams in terms of his explosiveness and his ability to break tackles, all that stuff. Yeah, and plus I think their defense is going to be pretty good. Well, shit, what's audible to that? I mean, they got Randy Gregory and DJ Jones. Yeah. And I like their defense. Anyway, the Gregory thing was shocking.

That was an interesting one. People never leave the Cowboys, you know, unless it's like an obvious money difference. In this case, it know, unless it's like an obvious money difference. In this case, it didn't seem like it was an obvious money difference and he just went anyway. But, you know, that guy, for all his issues, he's one of those guys that jumps out when you watch football every Sunday. Like, he's wreaking havoc for four quarters.

Yeah, he's explosive. Plus, they got Sertan. Like, obviously, you know, you and I both have kind of given the Broncos shit for taking Sertan last year when they could have taken a quarterback. Now, obviously, fast forward to the Russell Wilson trade. Now it looks great. And you didn't have to put Sertan in the trade. Yeah.

I know Seahawks fans were definitely very disappointed that Sertan was not a part of that trade. That was like sort of one of the givens beforehand. Like, obviously, we sort of had this inkling that it could happen with the Broncos. And everyone was like, not without Sertan. Like, Sertan, we got to get Sertan if we're going to have this trade. And then, of course, it didn't happen.

Would you rather have the second first or Sertan? Because you'd rather have Sertan, right? Yeah, the second first is... You're trying to get Sertan with that second first, right? Like, a player of that caliber. He's already going to be top-tier player. So, yeah, you take the bird in hand in Sertan, I think.

I don't trust the Seahawks to use those first round picks anymore, which is another part of the reason I'm trying to just like keep myself with the vision that this could be good. This is where you break right now. This is where the tears come. Yeah, I think all of us football

nerds, we all kind of like the Broncos the last couple years, even though the actual product and results didn't match the stuff we liked. So now they add new coach, but then new QB and they're spending on defense. They're in

a ridiculously good division. That division, that's going to be one of the better divisions we've had in a while it feels like, where Vegas is going to be the worst team in the division. That team's going to be good. But, you know, it's set up for him.

The psychology of it, of he obviously felt a little marginalized the last few years. Whether that's right or wrong. Didn't seem like he had, you know, the personnel say,

right. They didn't love whatever offense, but the thing is that kept changing the offense. He just didn't like whatever it was. And it was kind of like, is this Pete's team or my team seemed to be the fundamental thing, which we see with quarterbacks and coaches over and over again. And now he's going to go to Denver.

It's clearly his team, his city. He's going to be the guy. He'll sell the most jerseys. It's all lined up for him. I just don't know if he's the same guy he was eight years ago. I don't think he is. Yeah.

I think what you're saying was very interesting because they did try and design new offenses for him or whatever, quote unquote, new offenses. They did bring in new offensive coordinators like Peteete like cycled through a few different guys um and so i know from like the cx point of view the seattle fans point of view i should say some people just believe it's just there is a russell wilson offense and this is what they were running in seattle it's essentially like they're trying to like get the best out of his skill set so maybe this is what we see in denver that's what i'm kind of alluding to earlier. Maybe it's just going to be the same type of offense.

I do think it matters that this is a new head coach in Denver because there's not going to be that tension of like whose team it is. You know what I mean? Like Pete Carroll, that tension, it was never like outright. They were mad at each other. They hated each other.

Like they always got along. It seemed like Russell Wilson and Pete Carroll. But there is just like philosophically, they never aligned. And so, you know, I think with the trade that like the, what they brought in, in the trade, obviously they're bringing him in, they giving up a lot to bring him in. I think it's going to be Wilson's team and Hackett is the shepherd to like kind of make it all work. But this is, this is Wilson's team. I thought it was interesting. He never came on flying coach with when we had Pete Carroll and Steve Kerr as the coaches.

Who, Wilson or Hackett? Russell Wilson. Oh, yeah. Well, can we talk about the fact that your podcast brought about the downfall of Seahawks football as we know it? I have been blamed in Seahawks corners. I had Wilson in his last kind of Seahawks peak where he was the first time he was really getting MVP.

And everybody was doing that. We always do with, how does he never won the MVP? And then you have to do the, all right, we'll go through the seasons. Which one did he not get? This was like the classic Kobe thing in the basketball. How is Kobe only won one MVP? All right, let's go through the seasons. Which ones should have gotten?

It was the same thing with Wilson. But it really did feel like it was heading that way. And then the wheels fell off. And then he goes to the Broncos. The other piece we left out is just that their quarterback situation has been a catastrophe now for six years. Yeah. So that's good too.

Not as bad as, you know, Pittsburgh fans trying to talk themselves into Mitch Trubisky. Do you want to do... Yes, I want to do... I asked you to put together your five biggest free agency stories. We're in the middle of this. There might be three other things that happen,

but this month, the five storylines that you're the most fascinated by. Give us number one and then we'll go to a break. Yeah. So these are not necessarily 100% free agency, just things in the NFL. I think the biggest one, of course,

is close to your heart, which is Tom Brady on retiring, which I guess you obviously weren't too surprised about. I was not. But it's still very, it's shocking. I was the first, my first emotion was, yes, this is awesome.

It's just fun. It's better to have good quarterbacks in the NFL. I was not looking forward to whatever iteration the Buccaneers were going to be in 2022. You know, they have a lot of good skill players too. Mike Evans, Chris Godwin. So I was like thankful for them because obviously I'm doing a lot of work in fantasy. And so, you know, just having better quarterbacks is good. Tom Brady had more yards and touchdowns than any other quarterback last year, I believe. And so,

yeah, I just thought it's exciting. It's fun. You know, it was a little surprising to me, even though I knew that there was a sinkling that could happen. It still was like, wow, that's great. Well, and then the second piece is they get him and now they're spending money left and right. and they just traded for one of my guards Shaq Mason. Can you explain this trade to me? How does this benefit the Patriots? Are you asking me to explain Patriots moves in March?

You don't understand the text threads I'm on. I don't know how many good players we had somewhere between 12 and 17 whatever you... We lost three in like 24 hours. Yeah. I don't understand the way

of this, Trady. J.C. Jackson and we have signed nobody yet. So everybody's saying don't. Right now it's 3.18 Pacific time. Who knows? Maybe there's... But yeah, it's one of those Belichick marches where you're just like

why are we just losing guys? What about the part where you lose guys, but then you get a guy? How about that part? See, this is, to me, this is an interesting variable because I think Pete Carroll looked at what the Patriots did last year in terms of they lose Brady. They spent a whole bunch of money in free agency. They hit on a few draft picks, and all of a sudden, they're back. We're back. We're competing. We have this championship caliber team, blah, blah, blah. And then we lost by 100 points to Buffalo in the playoffs. But yeah, we were back. But that's sort of sea hockey, too, is disappointment late in the season in the playoffs or whatever. But now I don't really understand what they're doing.

I don't know what the Patriots are doing now with rebuilding so quickly. Now they have to get rid of guys for peanuts? I don't know. I don't know what the Patriots are doing now with rebuilding so quickly. Now they have to get rid of guys for peanuts. I don't know. I don't get it. Yeah, they almost seem like the... It's like when Kyle goes to the frolic room and he's in a great mood and he just starts buying people drinks.

That was last year's free agency spree. Yeah. Right? He's having a great time. Let me get you one. Oh, no. Hey, buddy. Nelly Aguilar.

Yeah. But then like two, three hours later, you start just getting a little tired drunk. And now it's not as fun anymore. Belichick, this year, it seems like he's tired drunk from the last spending streak from a year ago. And now it's like,

this is the reckoning of, I've got to get an Uber soon. It's like, oh my God, how much did we give Nelson Aguilar? What? Jalen Mills is now our number one quarterback. I got to get an Uber soon. It's like, oh my God, how much did we give Nelson Aguilar? What? Jalen Mills is now our number one quarterback. I got to get an Uber. That's my fear.

I really hope there's a plan. I've learned to, every Patriots fan has learned, look, fight off the demons. Right. Just trust the process. We've won six Super Bowls. Don't complain.

This is how he does stuff. But yeah, it's weird to just lose dudes. And then you look at Tampa, who is going the opposite way. They got, they re-signed Davis. They got Russell Gage today, who I actually liked. He's pretty good.

Had him on some fantasy teams. He's quietly really good, yeah. Maybe not really good, pretty good. Kappa Jensen, they got, even though they lost, they're all pro guard. What is Marpet doing? He's going to where's he going to be like? He's going to college or going to med school or something?

Oh, is he? I don't know. I didn't hear that. I noticed he retired. Yeah. Yeah. But they were able to replace that and they tendered Godwin. So they're lined up. Everybody was kind of like, yeah, this is, everyone felt like last year might be the last year of the run. But now they're at least set up for one more year. Am I 100 percent convinced he's going to be the QB? No. Right. This is what I'm interested in hearing more about the San Francisco thing. people on the internet. Write the piece about if Tampa was supposed

can trade Brady at some point during this process to San Francisco. Is there a time during this offseason where that has to happen? Is that like

is it like after June 30th? Does it become easier in July? Is it did they already miss the window? Is it now hard? What is the right time?

I think he's going to end up in Tampa because when the center came back, that made me think maybe this San Francisco thing. But he wanted to go to San Francisco. I will take it to my grave. That's how all this started. I agree with you, though.

The reason I would now be skeptical that it happens is because they're getting the band back together. And ostensibly because Brady's back, right? Like, let's run this thing back. And it seems like he's recruited these guys. But what have we learned? What have we learned about professional sports in the last decade? Like, James Harden.

Oh, he's not going to leave Brooklyn. He just got there. That would be crazy. I just, I don't trust anybody anymore. It's really kind of sad. Like, I wouldn't be shocked if in July he's like, you know what, I want to go to the Natters. Now, from the stuff I've heard,

he does like living in Florida. Family's there, whole thing. And I think once the San Francisco door was closed and locked by everybody, the Arians piece, we'll see what happens with that. But I think, I actually think it's one of the weirder stories. And it speaks to me more of like, what's going on with his inner circle? Who does he trust?

Who does he bounce stuff off of? Does he just have a bunch of yes men around him? Like who, if you thought you might come back, why retire in the first place? What was the point? That whole point, that whole thing was very strange. The timeline of course was very strange with ESPN reporting that he's retired.

And then of course they're like, no, he's not retiring. His dad comes out on radio. He's like not retired. And then a few days later, maybe it was like the pressure they felt to make an announcement of something. And then he could always come back later if he wanted to.

I don't know. But anybody in your inner circle should be like, no, don't do that. That's stupid. Just tell people you haven't decided yet. And take a month. Don't spend time with your family. Travel. What was the rush? And as Rosilla said on my pod on Sunday night,

like, you know, these guys, when the season ends, none of them want to play. You know, the week after, they're just like, that sucked. I never want to do that again. And then a month passes, and they start talking themselves in. But that was the weirdest thing to me,

is that he has nobody in his life who was like, Tom, just fucking wait. Wait, just wait a month. Day 31, figure this out. But the other crazy thing is nobody cares. It's not like anybody's holding it against him. This is, yeah. And I think also, you know, he is clearly so at the top of his game. Like, I think that's the other thing is like, it's not like he's declining and people are like, man, you should just hang it up. Like he is still elite at quarterback. And so everyone's like, thank God he's not retiring too soon. I think that's how I'm looking at it, at least. It's like, you know, if he can still play at such a high level, lead this team to potentially be a Super Bowl contender, you know, then why would you not come back? Other than, you know, of course, family issues or whatever,

or family pressures, I guess. And so, yeah, this makes a lot of sense, I think, for him, assuming everything's good on the family side. Yeah, we'll see. I think really famous, famous, famous people,

you can get a tiny bit weird too. Especially when you start thinking about abdicating your throne and passing it off to other people. The competitive juices start kicking in. We'll see. Rasell and I mentioned this on Sunday just before we go to break. the competitive juices start kicking in and we'll see. We, we're selling, I mentioned this on Sunday,

just before we go to break. Um, I do think the NFC kind of shifted his way too. And I think he noticed that too. I think the greatest guys, they really do look at that stuff and he's like, I'm only coming back if I think I can win a title. Yeah. And then you start looking at what's going on in the NFC and,

you know, the lack of star power from the quarterback position compared to the other conference where he's... Rodgers is the best QB in the NFC, but Brady is second? Yeah. And then who's third? Like Stafford, maybe? Yeah.

Stafford. And then it goes to fourth. It's like Dak Prescott? Right. I think so yeah and then probably Kirk Cousins maybe like that what Matt Ryan Kyler where's like yeah where's Kyler's

like as kind of over I don't even know what to make a Kyler anymore but I'm in the same boat yeah one of the TV shows one of the dumb talking head shows that I like watching they were arguing about

whether Dak Prescott and Kirk Cousins. Oh, I think it was Mad Dog when he was with Stephen A and he was basically saying Kirk Cousins. And I want to say if it's not Mad Dog,

I apologize. But it was somebody on one of those shows that there's no difference between Dak Prescott and Kirk Cousins. And it was like one of those prove to me there's a difference.

You want to go playoff wins? You want to go stats? Like, what's the difference? And I was like one of those, prove to me there's a difference. You want to go playoff wins? You want to go stats? Like, what's the difference? And I was kind of like, eh, not the worst point. I know. It's like, I don't have like an ironclad response to that. My eyes tell me you're wrong. Yeah.

It's like, I watch football every week. There's no way that's right. But then you just, you have all this evidence. You're like, eh, not terrible. All right. We're going to come back with more storylines. All right, Danny Kelly, you got four more storylines. What's number two? So obviously sticking with the QB thing, Aaron Rodgers deciding to return to Green Bay. Again,

this has felt a little bit inevitable, but I still think it's huge news and it's like a multi-year deal. It's not just one, run it back one more time. It's like he's signed through 2024 now, I believe. That guarantee was gigantic. What was it, 150 guaranteed? Yeah. I think it's 50 million per year average value.

And I want to say he had some absurd number, like in the hundred millions of dead cap, like he decided to like, if they decided to release him for some reason, it would be like a hundred something millions of dead cap like he decided so like if they decided to release him for some reason it would be like a hundred something million in dead cap so um yeah i mean this is huge obviously again for the nfc which is now barren relatively barren with the quarterback landscape you know the roads to the super bowl are essentially green bay and tampa bay now um and so uh i mean obviously la is still up there as defending champs, but it's always very hard. This is why San Francisco, I refuse to believe they're just going to be like, well, hope Trey Lance is good. They're right in this. You have a chance to make the Super Bowl. So, they've already committed to trading Jimmy G, but would you be shocked if they did a 180 and just said, we're actually not trading Jimmy G?

No, that's actually what I was going to ask you. It's like, what are the odds now that they just decide to continue going on with the experience over the raw Trey Lance, who can obviously bring a lot of different things in the run game and all that stuff, but obviously still very raw as a passer. And so are they going to want to take a risk on that? Sounds like Jimmy G. I don't know if Jimmy G wants to come back, though. He's like sick of it. Yeah. I mean, he's already said goodbye.

Yeah. There's still some teams that really need a quarterback, you know, a little bit desperately now. Now Deshaun's back in who we'll talk about at the end of this. But yeah, there's still a couple of pieces. But, you know, Pittsburgh just going, ah, we're just going to sign Trubisky. To me, that's the worst case scenario. We know Trubisky is not

a playoff quarterback. There's no scenario where he wins multiple playoff rounds for a playoff team. It is never happening. He's like a slight upgrade over last year, Big Ben. Right. I think I'm more positive about him than I was about Big Ben, but...

I actually think you're right, because Big Ben was horrific. I mean, he was terrible, yeah. But like Trubisky, at least you can like run around. The problem with him is you can design the whole offense for him, but in two seconds, the play has to work, or else that's it.

He can't ad lib. Right. And he's like, the accuracy thing still worries me. Like, you can design a scheme that'll get guys open, but like consistently hitting the open man is like an issue. Not even worth talking about Trubisky. So with Rodgers, you're thinking it is lined up yet again,

but then they have this Devontae Adams issue with the franchise tech. Yeah. Adams apparently will not play under the franchise tech. They've got franchises here. I think it's going to work out. I think it'll be fine. Adams knows that his best chance of, number one, having a Super Bowl is probably in Green Bay. And then, number two, his stats

are going to be the best in Green Bay. It's going to help him make the most money long-term. And his connection with Aaron Rodgers is so important. I don't understand why he would want to leave other than purely just this is a leverage play to get the big long-term contract that he wants. Here's what I don't get. I really understand the NBA salary cap.

I totally get it. The NFL salary cap is this amorphous, confusing... I don't understand it ever at any point. And I don't care how much it's gone up. I don't understand how a team that has a 53-man roster can pay Aaron Rodgers $50 million a year and then pay Devonta Adams as the highest wide receiver and have those two guys on the same team.

I just don't understand. I know like they do all the shit and signing bonus and then, okay. And it moves over like all these chicanery with it. I just don't fundamentally understand how you could, like if we did that during a, if we were in like a fantasy football keeper league and you had those two guys,

you're just doing that and you know, like, all right, my third receiver is going to be like, you know, a $1 guy on Jacksonville. Exactly. And in real football, you can kind of maneuver it.

But how are you going to do that with those two guys? I think in this case, because I think you can push things out three years, right? They're just going to kick the can down the road as much as humanly possible, you know, because they know like right now

that they can win with Rogers and Fonte Adams and they'll just figure it out later kind of deal. And the cap is rising. It's going to continue to rise. I believe by pretty significant jumps each year. So you can have guys, you can have a quarterback with like a $50 million cap hit two years down the line.

And that sounds like a lot right now, but it's not going to be quite as much relative to the cap, obviously, as it will be down the line. So I think that's just the way that they're approaching it. It's just kick the can down the road. Aaron Rodgers is 38 years old. He's going to be here at least two more seasons, I think. And then probably...

38 years old and getting weirder. Yeah. He's a weird 38. I wish you would tell Belichick about how the cap's going up. I'm not positive he knows. Can you text him afterward? Can you text him that the cap's actually going up? Does he spend more money?

All right, next storyline. All right, so switching gears here, I wanted to get your take on this too, actually. Calvin Ridley suspended for the season. I thought that was a pretty big story. Not necessarily the individual player not playing, but just in the sense that it felt it felt to me like the nfl was coming down on ridley as like we're making him an example you cannot bet on these games betting like it's becoming more inner interwoven with the league obviously the

league is now um yeah partnering with all these people all these companies um and i think to me this was just like a big like a representative story of like gambling and the NFL and how like they're becoming more intertwined. And the NFL is essentially saying, look, this is, we're making an example out of here. There's still lines that can't be crossed. Yes. And I know that you've said many times over the last year,

like the referee situation, there's just, it just like reeks of like, you know, betting issues and point shaving and all that. And so, I don't know. This to me just felt like

a shot over the bow of everybody who was even thinking about it kind of deal. Yeah, I mean, as you know, I'm conspiracy Bill. I'm always going to default

to whatever. And I, I've talked about this pot a couple of times where you'd watch games and the calls were so bad. You start thinking like, hmm, I wonder, I wonder if they live in a couple of times where you'd watch games and the calls were so bad. You start thinking like, Hmm,

I wonder, I wonder if they live in a state where online gaming is legal. You know, that's just the, if you're a conspiracy person, you're just going to default that way with the Ridley thing. I thought it was really weird that it was a year that, that heavy,

that's like, when you think about some of the suspensions that this league has handed out the last 15 years, Ray Rice, Adrian Peterson, you keep going. Right. And that this is way worse. They're saying this is three times worse than any of the horrible things

some NFL players have done over the last few years. The more I think about it, the more it almost makes me wonder if there's more to this story. Yeah. It's more going to come out because, man, they usually don't do it that way. Also, I like the Falcons

as a possible, especially if the NFC said, this is before Brady. I'm thinking like someone weird is going to come out of that division. Now they lose Ridley and they lose Gage. They don't have anything. Julio's long gone. They have Kyle Pitts, that's it.

I don't know. So that's suddenly kind of frisky Atlanta offense not looking too frisky. It's barren. Also, by the way, today, headline at Pro Football Talk, a major Las Vegas sports book wants the nfl to investigate whether someone placed major bets on the buccaneers to win the super bowl based on

inside info that tom brady was coming out of retirement because there was all there was like four or five big bets placed on uh the buccaneers who had you know really long odds to win the super bowl after brady retired and and so like this is another thing it's long odds to win the Super Bowl after Brady retired. And so, like, this is another thing. It's just like, to me, the betting interwoven with the NFL and how that in the direction it's going. I just thought this is like a big story. It's going to continue to just be a big story, you know, and the way that the NFL deals with.

And I think actually the one wrinkle that was interesting about this really story was the way they caught him was basically like a system that the nfl and the sports books put in place where they were flagging uh suspicious gambling like you know uh patterns or whatever and so this was like also kind of a hey by the way we've got all these systems in place if you're thinking about it type deal where again it was like warning all the players around um that had any thought of doing this that it's not going to work for you. So I thought that's just like an interesting subplot to all the free agency stuff. It's just like the betting, you know, warning against everyone across everyone's bow.

You know, it's funny about what you just said. This is the same league that could not figure out the ideal gas law with deflacate that during colder weathers. Right. with deflacate that during colder weathers, colder weather, the ball was going to deflate a little bit based on, and they just had no idea. And it took them a year and they ran all this. And then it was like, they belatedly realized, oh yeah. And now they're going to be able to just strategically put all these gambling traps with all these.

I just find it hard to believe. I can see that. One thing with the Brady bets and I, man, I'm so mad at myself. I didn't think of this because I saw the Ronaldo picture. Yeah. When he was like with Brady. Yeah. Well, but also just them on the field and that he's at a Manchester United game. And that should have been a voila moment because the Glazers own Manchester United. And it's like, well, why is he there? Obviously he was there to talk to the Glazers. And I just missed it. I'm slipping.

I'm getting old. Hopefully, Tom Brady's not slipping like me. What do you got for your next storyline? All right. So I guess this is sort of a borderline one. But the Colts giving up on Carson Wentz feels like it's being under-talked about. Amazing. That feels like a big story that maybe people just don't care about because it's the Colts.

They traded what turned out to be a first round pick to get Carson Wentz last year. Carson Wentz imploded at the end of the year. They missed the playoffs. And despite the fact they gave up this first round pick, which hasn't even happened yet, they are, they just part ways with Wentz.

They decide we're done. We're sick of it. We, he can't be the guy. And there are reports now. With no other person. Right. There is no backup plan, as far as I know.

At least it's not apparent yet what the backup plan is. And again, this is like a potential playoff team in a bad division who just traded away their starting quarterback for peanuts after giving up a first-round pick for him. Well, I guess two-thirds is not peanuts, but it's definitely not what they want to get back so i just thought this was an interesting story and how many how many teams are going to fall for this thing like how many teams are going to fall into the lens trap before we move on we just said

washington washington just fell for it what do you mean yeah they gave they gave two third round picks away to take his stupid contract yeah Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. I wonder like Frank Reich, who was, you know, who was the impetus to the Colts getting them in the first place and obviously vouch for him. Right. And it's almost like the team underachieves like that and misses the playoffs.

Somebody's getting blamed. Yeah. Frank Reich doesn't want it to be Frank Reich. I'm guessing. The blame game's going around. Frank Reich doesn't want it to be Frank Reich. I'm guessing. The blame game's going around. Frank Reich's like, hey, don't blame me. It was my fault.

I was like, cool. How about you? You're fired. So he's got to throw Wentz under the bus, which he should have because Wentz, you know, was,

you think even like the Patriot game when we should have beat them and just didn't get going until the second half. But Wentz was terrible in that game. Dying for Wentz to throw the ball in that game. So I think ultimately you just have to look at it and you go, we can't win with this guy. It becomes a sunk cost.

I think that's ultimately what he was. It was like the Brock Osweiler in Cleveland, although they didn't have to. In that case, they didn't have to attach first round picks just to get rid of them. But I think with quarterbacks, and we've talked about this some, we talk about it when on the fantasy thread that we have with you and Danny and Craig, like you kind of know with quarterbacks, there's not a lot of surprise when you're watching them. That's why the Trubisky Pittsburgh thing is so funny.

They're going to convince themselves. It'll be good. He'll have that one game and he rushes for 112 yards. But like ultimately we know how this is ending right so i think with the colts i kind of respect them they're like we have a good team this guy's gonna fuck it up we just got to get rid of them we got to figure out a different plan yeah the sunk cost thing is a great point because you know i'm right now i'm currently like sort of making fun of them for moving on after trading a first round pick by the end of the day they're probably better off with somebody else this season.

The thing is, the first-round pick's gone. Like, you can't... Can't get it back. You can't. It's gone. It happened. And you just got to look at it that way. And I don't know.

I respect them. Now, will I respect them as much if Trevor Simeon is their quarterback? Then it's like, all right, well, he's not better than Carson Wentz, but my guy Minshew comes in. Minshew, Jimmy G maybe. Is that the location Jimmy G's going to end up

if it's not San Francisco? So then it will lead to, that will lead to, what, a week of pieces showing that Carson Wentz and Jimmy G statistically are exactly the same in all this stuff. Here's the difference. Jimmy G is fucking cool, and his all this stuff. But here's the difference. Jimmy G is fucking cool.

And his teammates like them. They like playing with them. And it doesn't seem like, seemed like Wentz was not cool like that. And it didn't seem like his team liked him. That was something I noted here is that, yeah, whereas everybody seems to love Garoppolo. They go to bat for him in the press,

all that stuff. They love playing with him. They defend him. I saw this from Athletics' Zach Kiefer. He noted that... He does a good job, by the way. Yeah, really good job. He noted that the Colts just didn't think... So they had what he deemed a

lack of leadership. He had a resistance to hard coaching and a reckless style play. That's a bad trifecta right there. The reckless play was the most noticeable for us. We don't know the leadership piece, but he's sloppy with the ball. Same thing.

Daniel Jones is another one. Just sloppy. Yeah. I want a sloppy QB. We'll see what happens with them. Jimmy G seems like the safe bet. Yeah. Am I,

am I a lunatic about Minshew? Am I the only one? I'm just on Minshew Island by myself? I think he's probably not physically that talented on the spectrum of quarterbacks, but I think his floor is better than a lot of guys. I actually am sort of more in the

boat, too, of a Minshew believer. I thought he was pretty good, all things considered, in what was just an atrocious Jacksonville offense for a couple of years. So I'm actually, if we're talking about like the spectrum of hater versus Bill Simmons, who is,

I think Minshew's greatest supporter, your champion, you're his champion. I would be more closer to on your side. I'm not quite to where you are probably, but I do think he's better than a lot of backups. I'll put it that way. As you know, I have a lot of property

on Minshew Island. A lot of people don't know this. Have a small condo on Huntley Island. Ooh, I like that too. Yeah, I like that dude. That's the kind of guy like if the Seahawks traded a third round pick for, like that could be a second round pick if he has 16

starts. I think the Seahawks fans talk themselves into that one quick. I'm into that. I'm into that. Yeah. Like what's your fifth storyline? Uh, the lock thing,

the, uh, drew lock getting traded to the Seahawks. Now I'm just joking. The, the Russell Wilson trade was my final one. Um, we can already talk about that as a bonus.

Yeah. So the Sean Watson thing I think is of course going to be a big topic next couple of weeks. Um, it hasn't officially happened yet, but with a grand jury declining to indict him on criminal charges, that seemed to be the green light for teams to pursue him. Sounds like the Panthers, Saints, Browns and Falcons are the main four. So the Browns were the surprise for me anyway.

Right. Yeah. He met with the Browns today on Tuesday. Obviously, they already have a quarterback currently, Baker Mayfield, but they don't seem too committed to him long term. I just think with all of these, obviously, with 22 civil cases still pending, alleging sexual misconduct, sexual assault, a suspension is likely still to happen based on regardless what happens with those you know the big ben suspension was a precedent for that

um and there's also the you know i think there's gonna be fan backlash for wherever he goes um and with good right and so i think this is one of those things it's it's hard to discuss because these are all current it's all currently happening in the legal system right now. But the teams don't seem to care that these charges are all still outstanding. But I think the fans will. I think the fans are going to care. I know the Seahawks fans that I talked to when the Seahawks were involved in this were almost unanimously against it. You know?

And so, I don't know. You know, obviously, it's different for everyone, but I don't know if that's something that teams are underestimating right now. Yeah, maybe it depends on the organizational structure slash foundation. And it's sad to say, but the desperation to be good. Yeah.

I think would be the other piece of that because that will probably determine where he goes. But if he goes to Cleveland, think about what happened with Tyreek Hill and Joe Mixon. Some of the guys that have come into the league where it's like, oh man, and know, a round or two rounds lower than people expected because they have this baggage with them. Then it gets litigated in the press and you have to go through this whole thing. But then a couple of years later, it's not being discussed anymore. I'm sure that's the way that the teams are looking at this. They're thinking like we're going to take hits for here for four, five, six, seven months,

whatever it is. And eventually this will go away and wind up with a guy that, I mean, what'd you have before he went away? What did you have on like top six? Right. Yeah. Something like that. Was he like your top five or top six? I would say so based on his age and his trajectory. Yeah. Yeah. So somebody is going to talk himself into it. Oh, it's I'm with you. It's going to be fascinating. A who does it and then B what the backlash is and then see how to deal with it. But, you know, I mean, frigging the Steelers signed Mitch Trubisky. It's so hard to find a

quarterback. These right. Depending on how desperate you are, if you're Carolina, you know, you're Matt rule. He's from the South anyway. And if you're Matt rule and's from the south anyway and if you're Matt Rule and you're like if we suck this year I'm out anyway like what do I care I'm you know I'll just grab this guy

and hopefully this works so yeah I'm with you we'll see how it plays out in the draft who's going first I think Hutchinson Aiden Hutchinson the pass rusher out of Michigan.

It looks like it's going that direction based on what the Jags have done over the last week or two in terms of shoring up their offensive line. They franchise tag Cam Robinson. They sign Brandon Scherf. They've got a bunch of tackles, actually. So I think it's coming down to either a tackle or a pass rusher, and it does point to the way that they've sort of approached free agency.

It does point to Hutchinson being the guy. So that would be like my bet right now is Aiden Hutchinson. Number one. QB in the top 10 or no? I think that Malik Willis is going to go on the top 10. To your team? That's what I'm kind of hoping right now. Honestly, that's like, that's where I put my hope right now.

Obviously things can change in terms of the next month or so if Seahawks have some sort of plan up their sleeve. But yeah, I think take a rookie quarterback like Willis, have him run an offense that Wilson ran early in his career, similar to what they were doing with Wilson early in his career, where they were running a lot of play action. They incorporated the read option. I think that could give them the boost in the run game

that Pete Carroll's looking for. They want to be a running team. They want to lead the NFL in running. Early in Russell Wilson's career, they did that based on the fact that they're using the read option very frequently, building the whole offense around that as a foundation. Play action, I think that Willis could do that. He's a good deep passer. He has a huge

arm. He's clearly... Strong name. I like his name. Sounds like somebody who could be a famous QB. He's got, according to everything I like his name. Sounds like somebody who could be a famous QB. He's got, according to everything I've heard too, teams like him. His personality is good. He's the anti- Wentz, if you will. He's the kind of guy that the teammates

rally around and is super confident. It sounds like he's really smart, good on the blackboard, all that stuff. So everything I've heard and that's kind of been whispered in the NFL right now is that he really impressed teams. And that's why, that's part of the reason why he's rising up. He's going to probably be a top 10 pick. I don't know if I told you this yet, but Schrager, after hearing him on the pod last week, talk about the draft and selling me on a certain guy. I do have real estate agents looking at Desmond Ritter Island.

Ooh, I like that one too. China, maybe a small apartment, nothing big, but just trying to get in there early. have real estate agents looking at uh desmond ritter island oh i like that one too yeah china you know maybe a small apartment nothing big but just trying to get in there early right uh maybe a one bedroom um electricity some cable but yeah i like i did some research afterwards i was like oh this is my kind of guy i love the uh the other guys raving about him and that kind of stuff. So Solak was telling me about this. Apparently he is the most competitive guy. Like he, he will look up four games.

He'll look up dirt on like his opponents to like top crap to them during the game. And he's like ruthless in like as a trash talker, which I, you can't really tell because he seems kind of low key and even key like the way he plays. But this is apparently like the whispers are he's just like, you know. I'm getting a condo.

I'm not getting a apartment anymore. I'm getting a full condo. You're in. I'm on a buy. Yeah. HPOA, HBOZ, whatever the hell it is. All right. So when are you updating the draft guide next?

I think it's probably going to be a couple, like a week or two here. I'm working on the next 25. It's up to 50 now. And I'm going to try and go up to, I guess, I don't know exactly what we're going to do, but get in the next round of players, get another mock draft up here pretty soon. Next week or two.

So yeah. All right. Danny Kelly. Great to see you as always read him on the ringer.com and you can listen to him on. It used to be the ringer fantasy football show, but we kind of, we,

we more, it morphed into a draft show. Yeah. It's like a little pivot has a little identity crisis for about two months. And we just do draft. Then it goes back to fantasy. So good to see you. Good to see you.

That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Danny and Jackie. Thanks to producer Kyle Creighton. Thanks to Steve Cerutti and Dylan Berkey. We'll be back on this feed on Thursday. Don't forget about the rewatchables that we did about Titanic, which was really good. Don't forget about the Prestige TV podcast as well. Lots of new shows popping up there this week, including some shows you're probably watching.

Don't forget, if you watch the Drive to Survive on Netflix, Kevin Clark broke down all eight episodes on our F1 feed, so you can check that out as well. See you Thursday. I'm a bruised soul I never once said I don't have On the wayside On the first side of the river I'm saying I don't have to ever