The Bill Simmons Podcast - NBA Then and Now With Jackie MacMullan, Plus Brian Kenny on Boxing's Surprising Resurgence | The Bill Simmons Podcast

Episode Date: May 1, 2019

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by sportswriter and 'Around the Horn' costar Jackie MacMullan to tell some incredible NBA stories about the past and present, the shift in sports reporting, the NBA playoffs, the 3-point revolution, and more (2:35). Then Bill talks with MLB Network host and DAZN boxing play-by-play announcer Brian Kenny about the upcoming Canelo Alvarez vs. Daniel Jacobs fight, boxing's return to the spotlight, why there are so many boxing titles, all-time boxing matches, an MLB check-in, and more (1:15:55). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by DAZN. Don't forget about Canelo Alvarez versus Daniel Jacobs. This weekend, Saturday, champion versus champion, live from Las Vegas. People have been waiting on this one for a while. They're unifying all 27 middleweight belts. We're going to be talking to Brian Kenney about this later on in this podcast, but this is happening. This is a big fight and you should have DAZN. You should be subscribing to it right now. You could watch this fight. Check it out, DAZN. We're also brought to you by Bud Light. Keeping it real. Putting an ingredients

label on their packaging, brewed with hops, barley, water, and rice. No corn syrup, no preservatives, no artificial flavors. You know who else is keeping it real right now? Nikoli Jokic. What's going on with that dude? I voted for him third for MVP. I feel vindicated. He's been one of the best players in the playoffs.

Denver might make the Western Finals. Who knows? We'll be talking about him with Jackie McMullen a little bit. Cheers to Bud Light, reminding you to enjoy responsibly and keep it real. We're also brought to you by TheRinger.com where we're having the greatest month we've ever had, literally and figuratively,

as well as The Ringer Podcast Network where you can find the Rewatchables podcast. We did Mean Girls this week, me, Julia Lipman, Amanda Dobbins. It is up right now. You can check it out. You can also check out On Luminary, Rewatchables 1999, our little spinoff series.

We have Cruel Intentions coming late this week. So there you go. As well as Binge Mode, which is dropping, I think, Wednesday night about the big Winterfell episode. The big battle happened. It was such a big, grueling battle that Mallory actually got sick.

Mallory did not come into work today. We thought it would be like episode four and a half was kind of the over-under for when she'd get a debilitating illness from being broken down from the show. It was early this year. So if you bet the under, congratulations. It was episode three. But hopefully Binge Mode will be up and ready to go on late Wednesday night. Feel better, Mallory.

We miss you. Coming up, Jackie McMullen, the Hall of Famer, as well as Brian Kenney, old friend. We're going to be talking basketball. We're going to be talking about boxing, a tiny bit of baseball. That's all coming up first. Our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, we're taping this, just so you know. 2.40, we're starting on Tuesday afternoon. So there will be two games tonight.

And if there's like, if the Artest Melee Part 2 happens tonight or one of the biggest officiated controversies ever or Kyrie has 70 tonight and that's not reflected in this pod, that's not our fault because we're taping it before the games.

Right. But Jackie McMullen is here. Always a pleasure. One of my favorites. I haven't seen you for a while. I saw you at Sloan. Didn't count. We didn't really talk. I can't remember the last time we've done a pod. I say it's sloan didn't count we didn't really

talk i can't remember the last time we've done a pod i know it's been at least a few years it's been years since i was at grantland um every time i every time i'm with you it always turns into a podcast it does we run into each other we just start having a lot to cover yeah we're just talking about stuff family all the stuff we're hearing probably half of the stuff we couldn't say in a podcast but um those are the best kind right yeah off the record podcast yeah the off the record sloan was a great off the record oh my god like two days of just because that was when kairi was like things were really funky with the celtics and every gm or coach or official from another team was like hey you know usually the guys that like are avoiding you because they know you're

going to ask them a question they don't want to answer. And, you know, on that thing, they've got like your arm around like, hey, sit down, have a cup of tea. What's new with you? And I'm like, yeah, like you really care about me. Right. They just wanted to know. Well, you were one of the staples for people to go up to and get information from.

I thought it was funny. It was happening to me and I'm not an information person, but all the basketball people that were there that I ran into was like the first thing, dude, what's going on with the Celtics? Right. Because it was, it was so confounding. It was late February. It was, it was. And it was really confounding then.

And it's confounding now because allegedly it's solved, which I'm just, you know, like I did a jump today, since it's Tuesday, with Paul Pierce today. And he's declared this series over because the Celtics have won one game against the Bucs. And I'm looking at him like- He's a maniac. I was so mad. You know I love Pierce. I was so mad when he said that on TV. It's like, first of all, you're supposed to love the Celtics. There's no upside to this. This just goes up in the Milwaukee locker room right now that you did this. And you know what I said one day on the show? I said, Paul Pierce, if I had ever said to you,

when you were trailing a series, one to nothing, that this series is over, you'd be so far up in my grill. And he was laughing because he knows I'm right. And there's just no basis, in fact, on making a declaration like that anyway, especially with this team, because you do not know what this team is going to do from one day to the next. And I know they've played better. I know they've played better. I know they've played better.

I know they've won 11 out of 13. I know all the metrics. I know defensively. Defensively, actually, they've been pretty consistent the entire year. But think about the game one win when they missed. They had a 15-0 run put on them. Yeah. And they still won the game.

I mean, I don't know if that says more about them or the Bucs. But normally, in big games, when they go into those stretches, and they do, where they can't score and they can't make shots, instead of slowing down, passing the ball around, everybody comes down and goes, I'll do it. I'll do it. Wait, let me hit this 1840 with three guys in my face. Yeah.

And the lowest percentage shot on the floor, you know? And so for anybody to declare that they're all set and we're on our way to the finals, I'm like, where have you been and what have you been watching? It's a great playoffs because I have no idea who's going to win the title. I picked Houston before the playoffs. I bet on them. I have no idea. You know, it was just, I like the odds, but I could see Houston also getting swept or losing in five or, you know, who, who the hell knows? Right. I like, it reminds me of 93 going way back where it was just a lot of good teams, really fun second round on. And it was like, I don't know.

I mean, nothing would surprise me. I'm a big hockey fan. I bet you are too. Cause you grew up in Boston. And so we've been, I had some neck surgery. So I decided I'm not going to watch hardly any basketball. I'm going to expand my mind and read a lot of books. And so the first two weeks, I couldn't read books because I was getting really bad headaches. So I watched a lot of TV. I watched all these series that I should have watched years ago. But I also started watching hockey again. And the hockey playoffs, a number eight seed can beat a number one seed. And I remember just thinking, wouldn't that be great if that could happen in the NBA?

Nothing unpredictable happens in the NBA. But I'm wrong. I'm wrong this time. There are some really fun, unpredictable things happening. And it's got my attention. OKC, even though they had home court, still felt the OKC demise was unpredictable. A little bit. Now that we're in the second round.

But Bill, think about that. Should it be really? How long have we been watching Russell Westbrook put up amazing, amazing numbers, and then when the playoffs come, play at that warp speed that he plays in and feeling like he has to do it all at once and it doesn't work?

I was more shocked by the finality of everybody kind of collectively going, oh yeah, this will't work. I was more shocked by the finality of everybody kind of collectively going, oh yeah, this will never work now. Right, I think I've felt that way for a while. You thought you were there? Although, except for Paul George was a nice... That's what I was thinking. I was like, but he can do this.

And you know what? And maybe they could have, like his shoulder is bad. We'll find out soon. I thought we would have found out within 48 hours of the series, series that he had torn rotator cuff or whatever. Well, maybe he just isn't ready to deal with it, right?

He strikes me as a guy that would, he's not a publicity hound per se. But I think we're going to find out something's really, really wrong with his shoulder. But would that have turned the series? I think it would have made a difference. And is Roberson ever going to play for them again? Because he was just someone that I thought would really make a difference in a seven-game series in a playoff situation. But the kid can't stay healthy. So maybe we don't know the answers.

I guess my point, right? I was surprised just their behavior during it, the way they acted after a game throughout that. So we don't have to litigate OKC. I think they're done. I want to talk to you about team chemistry and personality and happiness and all that stuff. Because this is a big, big thing for me. I always talk about I'm the body language doctor. And, you know, I got in trouble with Tom Brady once about that. I wrote a thing about Tom Brady's body language.

And that was the first time he ever like raised his voice to me. Seriously? What did he say? He didn't agree with what I was saying, but I knew he was mad. You can always tell when Tom Brady's mad. Can't hide it. Yeah. And he was really, he took offense with what, I mean, it was years and years ago now.

So you covered in the 80s, going way back, you're covering, you replaced Bob Ryan as the Celtics beat writer. Good idea, huh? You did fine you did okay for yourself it was such a terrible idea you know I used to show up we were all mad though

when you took over it was like who's this oh no kidding where's Bob Ryan going who's this guy like that was the best thing that ever happened to me because my name was

Kim McMullen everybody would have like said forget it like I was just oh people thought you were a guy I was just at the airport on Sunday

and this guy was sitting next to me and he goes oh you know I love talking basketball I love reading your stuff and on Sunday. And this guy was sitting next to me and he goes, oh, you know, I love talking basketball. I love reading your stuff. And when I was little, my dad made me read your stuff. And he said, read this guy. And he said, we all thought you were like an Irish Catholic guy from Southie. And I was like, yeah, I'm a Protestant girl born in New York City, you know?

It's funny. I never thought that. But now that you said that, that makes sense. Yeah. It's like Jackie McMullen from Southie. Yeah, right. Her father, Jackie McMullen Sr. Yeah, Jackie Mack, right? Yeah. So everybody thought that. And it was the best thing for me

that people thought that because I could sort of escape my... I could try to just... You either thought I sucked or you thought I was okay. And you didn't have any preconceived notions about who I was or what I looked like. So walk me through, let's imagine those mid-80s Celtics teams and all the weird shit that was going on with those guys. If we now put them in 24-7, first take, social media, their Instagram, the interviews being filmed, going right onto the internet, what happens? Well, for one thing, Larry Bird would never have done two books with me. I can tell you that. Right?

I mean, think about it. Larry Bird got in that fight in the bar with Quinn Buckner. Oh, in 85. Yeah. I mean, someone would have had footage of that. He didn't talk to Shaughnessy for what, a year? Oh,, think about it. Larry Bird got in that fight in the bar with Quinn Buckner. Oh, in 85. Yeah. I mean, someone would have had footage of that. He didn't talk to Shaughnessy for what, a year? Oh, longer, I think. And now they're fine.

Scoop. He calls him Scoop. Well, we have to tell people what that story was. So Bird in 85 goes to another level. It was 85. I'm not great with dates. So January, February, March goes to another level. And this was like buzzer beaters, the whole thing.

He's never played better. Greatest player in the world. Yep. Round one, doing goes to another level. And this was like buzzer beaters, the whole thing. He's never played better. Greatest player in the world. Round one, doing fine. Something happens. All of a sudden, he's not shooting as well. And there's something wrong with his hand. And nobody's talking about it. Right.

And rumors are going around. Bar fight. Bar fight. Something happened. Quinn Buckner was there. We don't know what happened. But then at some point. Or maybe we do.

Or maybe we think we do. Nobody wants to write it. Because no one really knows. Right? knows but they would now because someone would have a oh and it's on the internet that that day probably yeah they would have the picture of them and and the guy would be interviewed on like inside edition whoever or tmz right well tmz would just have parked themselves down in faneuil hall outside clark's and all those places guys and every single night as guys came out you know know, like, you know, in the really early days after Bird and Rick Robey had like gathered up everybody's beers in the locker room and stuffed them in those like, those, what do you call it? Tuffle bags.

No, they put them in like, you know, the, why am I having a mental block? Pillowcases. They'd pack pillowcases. Like if you didn't, oh, you're not finishing those? They'd grab yours yours and robie and bird throw them on the bus oh my god yeah and like just imagine like tmz be waiting for him every night yeah well they never would have made it through and the other thing i always thought was like they were such a great group of guys and and they're all fine now like you know there was some there was obviously some static between mc uh bird and mikhail at the end but that's but that's all water under the bridge.

But there was also sort of this dynamic of all the wives and all the girlfriends and how they got involved. And they could manage that very, very easily then. I don't know how easily you manage it today because they talk and they text and they tweet. Well, we used to sit, my dad's seats were on one side of the tunnel when the players came in and the wife section was on the other side so we would see all you watch it all i wrote about in my book i have a whole thing about parish's wife trying to vault the uh to vault and jump into the tunnel to go after jake o'donnell oh there you go she felt like jake o'donnell had it in for her husband she's screaming at him like a maniac

and we thought she was gonna jump she was volatile but he was more volatile not to his credit that's a very dark part of Robert Parrish's history yeah that wasn't great

so we would see all this different action you know and there would be these random women like who's that is that a girlfriend

who is that or then the old staples like Kavlicek's wife way back. Right. She was so nice. But yeah, that would be another thing where- Yeah. So all those things, I think about it all the time because now I see those guys still. I see Mikhail and Bird from time to time.

Of course, Max is on the radio and he's- Max went into this dance, for God's sakes. 81. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Philly guy. It into the stands for God's sakes. 81. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, Philly guy. And it was a lawsuit for like two and a half years. Yeah.

The guy said something really bad, I think. Oh, I'm sure he did. But you know, Max, Max was a little bit of a loose can. He'll be the first to tell you that. He was like, bring it on. I mean, it's like Milbury going into the stands with the Bruins with his shoe. You know what I mean? You hit a guy with a shoe.

Like that stuff doesn't fly anymore. It was funny about when Max went into the stands, it was game six and they were down like 15 and it was like the rallying choir of the game. And I was like, man, when Maxwell in the stands, that was awesome. Now that would be, they'd just be showing that for three weeks straight. Or like, think about, you know, ML Carr crossing the foul line and giving worthy the joke sign. Like, I don't know, they'd probably suspend him or something. I don't know. So Bird in the him or something. I don't know.

So Bird in the 84 finals does that whole thing. We played like a bunch of sissies tonight. Yeah, that was the best. And he throws the thing. And back then we had like the Globe. There was early SportsCenter, the LA Times. Sports Illustrated's not coming out for a few more days. It felt like a month.

And the moment came and went and then it belatedly became a much bigger thing. It newspaper headlines that's it but now if that happens well and it's funny to talk to guys now of course Ainge was on that team and and talk to them and they'd say oh it was overblown I'm like I don't think it was yeah I don't think so at all like because now if if like like if Kyrie Irving said that now these guys are a bunch of sissies. You know, Jalen Brown would be reporting him to the union or something. Right. I don't know.

It's a workplace violation. Yeah, right. So, I mean, it's just, it's a different world. I like that world a lot more, honestly. The guys were so,

we used to go to practice. We used to go to practice. FaceTime with them. We used to go to practice. Yeah. And I used to go really, really early because I was so young

and so much a girl, like the only one. And I was like, how am I ever going to get a leg up or just have a chance? So I used to just go really, really early before practice. And that's how I got to know Bird. Yeah. Because Bird was always there and McHale was always there. You know, everyone talks about Bird putting up the shots and doing all the work. McHale did every bit as much the same thing.

He put in every bit as much work. He really did. And so that's how I got to know those guys a little bit, you know, because even then, even for those times, Bird was difficult, as I'm sure you remember. It was just hard to get him on your own. It was, you know, you didn't have a cell phone to text him. Well, even if you did, you'd never have his number. So it was, it it was there were ways

you you rode on the bus with them occasionally not always you could catch them in the airports too right well yeah i remember once we were in milwaukee going uh that's when i was only on the i wasn't on the beat a long time only like a year and a half we were stuck in milwaukee and there's no it was midwest express remember the airline with the free chocolate chip cookies and so there was no um there was no lounge for them to hide in, you know? And so this kid came up to Bird, I've told this story before, and asked him, you want to play cribbage? He's like, yeah. So they unloaded the cribbage board because then Bird could just play cribbage and put his head down and no one could come up and bother him.

It was like- Right, because he's in the middle of a game. The kid's like, I got to catch my flight. He's like, no, another game. It's really funny. But I just remember in that particular day, I was sitting there and Bird, like, I think it was the first time he ever said my name. Because I didn't really think he knew my name. Because he never really, you know, he wasn't like trying to exchange pleasantries with you too often.

But I think he said, Jackie, can I borrow like a pen or something? And I was like, I think this is progress. Yeah. Because just any kind of interaction with those guys, but like guys like DJ and Danny, they were great. I mean, Danny loved to make fun of me. He, they had a lot of fun at my expense. All those guys did. They had quite a bit of fun at my expense, which, but it was good. It was in the perfect frame of it. I never felt like they were ridiculing me. I just felt like they were making me part of things in the best way they knew how,

you know? And you had way less people in there too. Oh yeah, absolutely. We were in Richfield, you know, the old Richfield Coliseum. So they're playing the Cavaliers. There's only one hotel. We all stay in the same hotel. Cause the other thing I was always worried about was being young. And I guess I was still single, but I mean, I've been with my husband almost 40 years. We've been married like 32 of them, which has been forever. But I always just thought, all right, this is, you know, know i have to really be sure like i'm not having a drink with somebody in the bar like i was very conscious of that i just i don't want to be that i don't want anyone to ever question whether right but this but when you're in when you were in richfield as you know there was only one place to stay so we were there the players were there we were all there and uh do

you remember kelvin upshaw of course okay so kelvin upshaw was a rookie and so the players were there we were all there and uh do you remember kelvin upshaw of course okay so kelvin upshaw was a rookie and so the players are all we're we come down first we're having drinks or whatever and then they all come down and there's like a disco and like they start playing a disco with a ball and there's music playing and we're all just sitting there and all of a sudden like poor kelvin upshaw comes over and goes, do you want to dance? And I'm like, what? He's like, no. What? No, I can't dance with you.

And he goes, please, Miss Jackie, can you just please dance with me? Because like they're all over there. And this is like my, like you got to please, can you just dance with me? Because it was like a rookie hazing thing. Oh my God. So I'm like, Kelvin, man, I feel your pain, but like, there's just no way in hell I'm dancing with you. So I'm not dancing with you.

Oh my God. That poor kid. Can you imagine if that happened in 2019? Oh no. Yeah. I could own the Celtics probably. The thing with you though is you're, you're a good hang. So you're in this era where.

Yeah. I don't know. There's not a lot of people and you can actually like forge real relationships with people. Oh, totally. In all these different ways. Major Goolsby's like, the first time I went there, Bill Walton, it was Walton. And I think Ryan was with me. Yeah.

Aileen Voisin, remember that name? Yeah. So she was there. And Bird was there. And I'm like, is this really like happening? We're having beers with these? Like for me, I just never would have done that on my own. And I still wasn't 100% sure I should have been doing it at all, really.

Because I was a real little, I was a bit of a stickler for that when I was young, maybe not so much now. And that night was like, I just sat there and listened to Bill Walt and just laughed till I cried. The guy was so damn funny. He was telling stories about taking Mikhail to a Grateful Dead concert and getting them all messed up and Mikhail coming home and lying on the floor

and his wife Lynn's trying to pick him up. And it was just, it was just, it was surreal. You couldn't believe it. Well, you had, you were kind of blessed

by Bob Ryan because he's the commish. the best. So if he said, this is, she's following me, you're going to be nice to her, that was it.

There were three people in Boston that did that for me. It started with Bob. It continued with Bird and then Red. Those three guys. Oh, that's it. Once you get them, you're good. But Bob was, I can't even tell you.

I can't even begin to tell you how great he was to me. How great he is to me still. Yeah. I mean, still, I consider him one of my closest friends. It's hard to say, I mean, how much sway he had back then because we basically have one 50th of the basketball media we have now. And he was the most important guy. Every time.

And I remember when I first walked into the arena with him and I had an inkling that he was going to be leaving and that I might have to take over, you know. And I remember just walking in with him and like, he knew everybody. He knew. And he didn't come up to people. Players, opposing players players all the officials knew him you know the the opposing teams radio to everybody everybody would come up to him and and just unsolicited tell him really amazing things and i thought how will i ever get there how do you ever ever get there you have that many relationships right and and the thing that also

that bob is amazing and i'm really really bad at, and it just blows me away, is he has a photographic memory. He remembers every detail of every game and every moment. And I forget those things, Bill, five seconds after they happen. Yeah. And Bob and I have been some amazing events together. I mean, we've been, for the early Patriots Super Bowls, we were sitting right next to each other for all of those. I don't think he was there in 86 for the World Series, and I don't think he was there when they won either. I got to do both of those too.

But he would remember everything. He's like, remember when Brable? And I'd be like, no, they won. I don't even remember who they played. I don't have that kind of brain. He does. It's just astounding. When you started covering them,

how many women were covering nba at that point there was one do you remember mary shane from the worcester telegram you probably don't remember her i don't she was very very good she was a lot older than me um and she was really good and she was no nonsense and it was really when you look back on it kind of odd she was there yeah and the players they they respected her and she she died young and i i can't remember what she died of but i was really i remember i was really shaken by it because uh she was nice to me but she didn't she wasn't flowery she didn't go out of her way and put her arm around me and you know no she's like all right well here's how it works and you know

if you have any questions i'll answer them but like i just thought the world of her what about in the nba as a whole there weren't many johnette howard who just kicked ass and remember her she's a really good writer yeah so good she ended up in the national right and then she she was she was covering detroit free press i think it was and she i watched her undress isaiah once like isaiah she was asking isaiah something and he was giving her a nap she's like look i don't have time like she just oh i thought she was so great and we were really good friends and and it was funny because when we were covering all those teams i think i've told you this before but you know they really didn't like each other

mikhail and isaiah got along but everybody else hated each other you know there's the famous story about bird getting on the you know asking the lambier yeah they make the all-star team that famous story but they really didn't like each other and and mahor and all those guys and um i was by then i was covering a lot of like national nba and once in a while having to do the sunday notes which was very daunting and uh and everyone's like well you know she's getting all her stuff from the celtics but the truth was i was getting it all from the pistons you know i got to know isaiah and blambier and publicly like they'd put on a show and be like i don't want freaking women in the locker room you do all that and then be like they'd put on a show, Lambeer like, I don't want freaking women in the locker room. He'd do all that and then be like, yeah, whatever.

And then they'd leave and then he'd be like, what's going on? I go, you first, you know? So, I mean, I learned a lot from those guys, Vinny and not so much Joe, Isaiah, Lambeer, Rick Mahorn. To this day, I just love them every time I see them. And everyone always thought that my pipeline was Boston. It really wasn't, it was Detroit. And I think if you ask Jeanette, I think she had really, really good luck in Boston's locker room.

That's fascinating. It kind of is. You never told me that one. I've never heard that one. Yeah, those guys. Well, it started because I was warming up one day. They used to practice at the garden. So we're waiting for them to come.

And I'm playing a lot at that point. I'm in my 20s. I'm playing all the time. And we're shooting around, waiting for them to come. And I hit a turnaround jump shot against nobody. Nobody's guarding me. And Isaiah Thomas came in. He goes, hey, do that again.

I said, how much you give me? He said, 10 bucks. I said, all right. So I hit it. Gave me 10 bucks. That's how it started. We should mention you played in college. Yeah.

You were a good basketball player. No, you were good. I was okay. I was okay. You were good. Yeah, it was fine. You started. Yeah, for a while. Did you play at UNH?. You were a good basketball player. No, you were good. I was okay. You were good. Yeah, it was fine. You started. Yeah, for a while.

Did you play at UNH? I did. University of New Hampshire. You started at UNH. Basketball powerhouse of the world. That's legit. No, I was. I played more than I should have early on and didn't play enough late.

Let's just say that. That's why I always tell everybody. So that's kind of where it started. And you know what I remember about Isaiah? And I've asked him since, so I can now say this to people. When Irvin got diagnosed with HIV, everybody remembers where they were. Yeah. And pretty devastating thing.

And I've never seen Larry so devastated. Yeah. That's for real. The first time he said it, first time I didn't want to play. Yeah. And I just remember the next week the Pistons came in and I was saying to Isaiah, oh my God, this is like so awful. And he goes, hey, sit down.

He said, you know, it's not what everybody thinks. I said, what do you mean? He said, my brother's been HIV positive for years. He's not going to die. It doesn't mean he's going to die. And I was like, really? And he goes, yeah, don't write that. But you know, this was.

91. 91. And he said, no, my brother's been HIV positive for a long time. He's going to be all right. Yeah. Wow. Isn't that something? Let's take a break to talk about the most epic cookies of all time.

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Well, Arya. I mean, she did kill, oh, spoiler alert. That's too late. You probably know now. She did kill the Night King. Killed him. Pulled the switching hands MJ in the 1991 finals trick. Go to oreo.com, pledge your fealty to the house of your choice and tune into Game of

Thrones on Sundays on HBO. And I can't wait to try these. Simmons family, huge Oreo family. Check it out. Cookies are coming. Brace yourself. What was your Laker pipeline at that point? Are you exchanging with like the reporters there? No, no. Brace yourself What was your Laker pipeline at that point? Oh

Are you exchanging with like the reporters there? No, no Because that was back in the day When people would do the notes columns And they would just give each other the stuff You never did that? Never And Bob never did either

Yeah And that's the first thing Bob told me Well people took from Bob probably So when I You know what's funny? When I went to Sports Illustrated Yeah One of the reasons I went there

Was they wanted to do like a weekly notes column That's why I went there Bill Coulson hired me. I liked Bill Colson. And McCallum brokered the whole thing. Got me a signing bonus and everything. Really? I got a $20,000 signing bonus.

Wow. I'm very proud of that. It'll never happen again. And so anyway, I'm talking with Bill. And so the first thing they tell me is, yeah, so every week we have all these writers that just send in stuff every week for us. I'm like, what? They're like, yeah, we got someone in Boston and someone in Atlanta. And they'll send you information from their teams, stuff for you to use.

And I'm like, no. Yeah, I don't do it that way. That's not happening. And they're like, why not? I go, didn't you hire me to do this? Right? Like, I'm not doing that. You're so honorable.

Well, no, but you would do the same thing. Yeah. Because for one thing, you know what you could get was better. Well, and also you're competitive. You want your own stuff that nobody else has. And the other thing is, a lot of them were sending you stuff that they didn't have enough balls to write themselves. Right. So why would I do that? But what I didn't think through, and I should have,

was if I was going to use this stuff, they weren't going to use them, and they weren't going to pay them. And I had a lot of people that were really, really, really unhappy with me. Ooh. Steve Opet being one. Ooh. Jeff Denberg, God rest his soul, another.

So it's the little tidbits they got a little extra well yeah they got paid to do that and so that was that was not great but ryan always told me you can get your own stuff do you do it your own way so the lakers for me were it was it was that was tough because riles riley i was boston he equated me with boston and all the way through to miami and on he just he actually even said to me once, I'm sorry, Jackie, every time I look at you, all I can think of is Boston. I just can't really talk to you. He was so scarred from Boston.

Truly, truly scarred by it. Like when they won in 85, I don't even know how much he enjoyed it. I think he was like, well, like he told, like he said, if we didn't win, I'm fired. I'm losing my job. And he's right. You know? And so I think for him, I was just, I think I probably still am a little bit. We've made some progress through the years here now.

In fact, when those people made a play out of the book when the game was ours, they had to play a very, very, very short-lived play. But I don't care. It existed. So we got invited, obviously, to the premiere, Mike and I, my husband and I. And so we walk in. And that's kind of a big event. It's kind of fun.

And we end up sitting next to Pat and Chris Riley. So through the years, Mike has heard my stories like this guy's not, you know, this guy doesn't really give me the time of day. And now here we are sitting next to Pat Riley. And Mike's, you know, he's couldn't be any more charming, Pat, to my husband, like unbelievably fantastic to my husband. And he's sitting there and Mike's looking at his ring. He goes, well, which ring do you have on? And Pat said, oh, I have a, it was one of the

Miami rings. And Mike goes, oh, you didn't pull out the Laker ring for this? And he said, well, yeah, kind of a bad story. Mike's like, what do you mean? He said, well, when we made the, when we won the championship in Miami and we're, you know, each year we won, we wanted to make the rings really special. So I pulled out all my my laker rings and i had them all out on the thing so the designer could look at them and i'm like i like this i don't like this whatever and he said and you know we then they brought me some prototype in these boxes and we had them out and he said and then uh when we picked what we wanted we just picked up the boxes and we threw them out and i threw out all my laker rings now he's telling my

husband this story and i'm like this i can't even get the guy to say hello to me oh my god and i'm like for real and he's like remember jackie this is a social event like basically like off this is off the record you know so i thought oh my god i said mike you just got like the best story out of pat raleigh i've ever heard and i went back to looking like no one had written it so i thought i just got to find the right out of Pat Riley I've ever heard. And I went back to looking like no one had written it. So I thought, I just got to find the right time. Yeah. And I'm going to get this.

Like it may take me years. You know how this is. Sometimes you just got to hold on to it and wait. And instead, our good friend, Wright Thompson, did that wonderful, wonderful profile. Oh, about Riley. Yeah, yeah. And it was in there. Oh.

Yeah. It's okay. It's okay. I hung on to that one for a while. You know how I remember your Sports Illustrated run? I don't know what I was in there. Oh. Yeah, it's okay. It's okay. I hung on to that one for a while. You know how I remember your Sports Illustrated run? I don't know what I was doing there. I didn't belong there. You're responsible for Karl Malone's MVP.

I know. It's your fault. I'm all right with it. That was your fault. You started it. It was like March. Everyone was super bored. I did.

And you wrote the... It was a very smart piece, by the way. If somebody at the Ringer wrote a piece like that, it would have been like, great angle. I love it. I did. And you wrote the, it was a very smart piece, by the way. If somebody at the Ringer wrote a piece like that, it would have been like, great angle. I love it. Good job. But it was kind of like, hey, Carl Malone's been really good for a long time.

Utah's good. Why couldn't he be the MVP? And then everybody was kind of like, she's right. Why can't he be the MVP? And then all of a sudden he was the MVP. Do you think he ever thanked me? No. I think that was probably the worst thing

that could have happened to him. Sorry, Carl. Sorry, Bill. It was like giving meat to MJ. It was like giving him red meat to just wave over him. Jordan was like the best to cover of all of them.

Really? Because he was so real. Like I look back on it now, like he was so direct. Yeah. If he had a problem with you, like, man, he just told you. It wasn't like, I'm not talking to you or i'm turning my back to you or or going to someone else

and ripping you like anonymously in another paper he'd just come right up to you and say what the hell was that for what was that about what and he never said one word to me about that ever about that malone thing about the malone thing he probably was amused because it did happen with clyde drexler you know 92, and he handled that one as well. I think Car Malone, I'll never call him the greatest power forward that ever lived, like so many people do. A lot of people still do. But I do think that year he was really exceptional.

He was really good. He was. Do we think Duncan's a power forward? Yeah. Then he's the greatest power forward of all time. Yeah, he's mine. Yeah. All the way.

Because some people would say he's a power forward? Yeah. Then he's the greatest power forward. Yeah. He's mine. Yeah. All the way. Cause some people would say he's a power forward center hybrid like McHale was. And it's funny. And I was talking to Boone Holzer about him the other day for another story I'm working on. And, um, he was like, oh, we probably never allowed Tim Duncan to be Tim Duncan because of the way we played. No question. Like we asked him to give up so much.

And so just think about that for a minute, as great as he was, how much better he could have been maybe. And it was interesting because we were talking about what were the greatest, most clutch Tim Duncan moments. And they're all kind of early in the game, in his career. That doesn't mean he wasn't great all the way through, but his role is just very different. I was trying to figure out, Rossella and I, we did a podcast Sunday night

and I was talking about how the best player alive belt is kind of vacant really since this whole LeBron season, which has happened a couple of times in NBA history. Like when Jordan retired the second time, that lockout season

was kind of vacant for a year and then Shaq took it. And that was so fun. Yeah. And he should have had, you know, he should have had more. So he had it for three years

basically yeah and then Duncan took it over and Duncan won the two straight MVPs and I think Duncan was the best player in the league from 02

basically through 07 Kobe grabs it for like a year at one point but but can't quite hang on but Duncan the stats aren't there

and the resume as we get further and further away people are like ah he wasn't that good he only averaged 22 and and further away people are like ah he wasn't that good he only averaged but that's like saying it's like saying bill russell wasn't that good that's the thing like that's what bothers me yeah that's one of the reasons i wrote my book right because it's like look you know it's my husband's favorite book i've written five books and i'm is that true oh i gotta send him one yeah this is great news i mean he has it we have it no you're gonna

autograph one though oh yeah that you can do but duncan i think was the best he told my son to read it he's like i think i'll read mom's books first, dad, if you don't mind. Yeah. That's what I would want for my kids. But do you think he has? No, he hasn't. I don't think my daughter's read any of my books. It's fine. I'm good. I'm not bothered by it at all. Apparently not. But I think Duncan was the best guy for, I don't know, five, six years, but he only won MVP twice. Right. People seem to think this was the case with Kobe. It was like, well, he only won MVP, but he was the best guy that whole time.

It was like, no, he wasn't. It's actually not true. And you know, it's funny. Like the big joke in Boston is like Jason Tatum went and spent the summer with Kobe and that explains everything. Oh my God. I know. So it's like-

Is that a joke though? Oh no, it really isn't. Every time it takes a 20 footer with a hand in his face. Where is he in his playoff series so far? Postseason. He said kind of. I'm surprised no one's. Maybe I should write about that.

You should just. Should I just send you all the text exchanges with my dad? Oh yeah. Really? Well, he's had a couple of games where he's actually played the way we want Tatum to play. And it's like, yeah, that's how. Right. Go to the basket.

Yeah. He's had a weird year. Some guys don basket. Yeah, he's had a weird year. Some guys don't get it. He's had a weird year. And I do understand the whole idea of having all those guys like, all right, this was great what you did. Now everybody take two steps back. That's just a lot to ask.

That's a lot to ask for anybody, for Rozier, for Brown, all of those guys. Now you've got to figure it out, and maybe they have. And maybe that's why they're okay now. I think the young guy stuff started early nineties when you were covering the league, when the guys came in and already thought they were something. I don't feel like that was the case in the eighties as much. There was still a little, you came in the league, but you still had to kind of prove you were good. And in the nineties, people were showing up, they're getting big contracts right away. And it was like, I'm good. What are you guys talking about? And they

hadn't done anything yet. And then the rookie scale comes in and we kind of figure out how to fix it. And we did. But now it seems like we're back. We're heading back to the old way where like Jason Tatum is a rookie, plays well in the playoffs,

gets the shoe with no sneaker laces, gets to see the LeBron dunk all summer on social media. Well, that was pretty amazing. It was amazing. And he's 20 and he's like, I'm the guy. Yeah. And it's like, all right, dude, you're 20. And he was on my podcast.

I thought he was like, I had my two kids in Tatum. Those were my three kids. Like that's how much I loved them. Yeah. And I still love them, but I'm just mad at the way he's playing. Yeah. And he's got, you know, we haven't seen, we haven't seen the beginning of it. And that's why it's just so fascinating to see this summer what they do.

Well, he's probably getting traded. Well, so yes, I would agree with you because there's- He's the best trade piece that's going to be out there. He is. He is. But it's funny, you know, Jalen Brown has made a nice case for himself, not as a better player. I will never say that.

But if you're the Celtics, let's just play along. Let's play along. Let's say Kyrie stays, okay? And Anthony Davis comes and you lose Tatum and some draft picks and probably Marcus Smart, which will hurt.

That's not probably. That's the only way it works unless Al Horford renounces his contract. Right. And who knows what Al's going to do because he's been a little cagey, even though he just told me the other day, I'd play basketball for free. I'm like, why would you ever say that on the eve of free agency?

But you can also say that when you've made like $210 million already. Yeah. I'd play this for free. Al's a genuine guy though. He's a really good guy. I wish he would impose himself a little more. Like when Kyrie was off the rails, it would have been nice. And maybe he did.

I asked him point blank. I think he's just a nice guy. Like when Kyrie was off the rails, it would have been nice. And maybe he did. I asked him, point blank. I think he's just a nice guy. That's in-house. But, you know, so maybe he did say something. Who knows? I don't think so. We'll never know. All right, now I've lost my train of thought.

No, you had it with Tatum. We're talking about Tatum, yeah. Tatum versus Brown. Yeah, so let's just say, so you trade Tatum and you trade Marcus and you take on Anthony Davis and now you have Kyrie and you still have Gordon Hayward.

Jalen Brown, in a lot of ways, I'm not saying he's better, but he, maybe he makes a little more sense in terms of. Why are you so afraid to say it though? Because I actually think there, there might be a chance that he's better than Tatum. Yeah.

I don't know that yet. I think Tatum's ceiling is higher, but I don't, that doesn't mean he's going to get there. And I think because of, because Jalen Brown really does know how to play defense. And he plays elite defense at times, not all the time, but at times. And Jason Tatum, he gets lost defensively when you go, I know that. My sixth grade travel team knows that. And I like the Kobe detail thing. I'm

learning from that. watched them and i learn and he did one with kairi and a lot most of it i mean i don't need to know about screening i was a screener my whole life i don't need to know how to screen a role but but the spacing was very interesting to me he would talk about kairi at the top of the key and how and it's hard for people to visualize this but so kairi's at the top of the key he's drawing attention then tatum's in the corner and then kobe's like if tatum just takes one step this way it forces the defense to draw out this way and then then he comes down on another one he's like now tatum's on the weak side he's like if tatum would just you know dive in here it forces this guy to make a decision and every example he made it seemed to me like it

was like well jason tatum isn't standing in the right place right you know i thought that way the whole year that's offensive. So we haven't even begun to talk about defensively. You know, he's just, there's almost an indifference there that I find a little concerning. Some guys don't know how to play without the ball.

That's why I love Hayward, what's happened, especially the last five, six weeks. He just seems like he'd be fun to, he'd be fun to play with. He would. He's still a little stiff though. Like that play the other night

where someone dumped it off to him, I can't remember now, and he like, there's still an awkwardness about him, which I think will subside in time. But he's just such a smart basketball player. He's the guy that makes the right play almost every time. Where do you stand on Simmons? On Simmons? Ben Simmons.

Oh, sorry. I was like, you? Where do you stand on? I'm calling myself in the last name third person. I don't know. It's been done. I like Ben Simmons, but it's pretty obvious how it's happening again, isn't it? I think it's

fascinating to watch these games and they just kind of, it's a little Ben Wallace-ish. Oh, it's not that bad. I'm telling you, when you watch him he's kind of now, he's just not going to be involved in a big play with four minutes to go. And isn't that a shame? Cause he, cause I really believe he had, he has every other ability. I find it impossible to believe that he,

I know he's such a good athlete. And, and, um, and I talked to Kevin Boyle, his coach from Montverde Academy. Um, I was doing a Kyrie story. I mean, this guy, Kevin Boyle, I'm going to do a story on him cause he's coached everybody, including Ben Simmons. And he swears to me, Ben Simmons could shoot at one time and that something changed and somebody changed his mechanics and it sent him on this spiral that he's on.

Because now it's all mental. It's, you know, people talk about Markel Fultz. This isn't really that much different, really. No. So. I think it's fascinating in these playoff games

where now he's learned how to at least try to affect without being able to shoot where two man game I'm going to start drifting down and then when the shot comes I'm going to crash for the offensive rebound like he has these little tricks now that are ways to cover up the fact that he's just

not going to shoot. Because he's a smart player so I just I'm not going to give up on him yet but I mean that team it's funny I can't believe they won that game the other night. Last night. I guess it was last night. Yeah, it was last night. I still can't believe they won because Embiid is really hurting.

I had spent some time with them last week. He's struggling. He's really, he's not going to be right. Is this just who Embiid is going forward? Where it's like one thing after another? Well, I hope it- Big guys, when they have this kind of history in their 20s it's usually not great

but think about Ilgascus like I always think about Ilgascus he was done he was cooked it was over and then it wasn't you know but he wasn't a top 5 guy though

no but it's the same to me it can be the same trajectory so the thing with Simmons Embiid was he wanted to prove to everybody I'm gonna I'm gonna be an MVP I wanna be a

a defensive player of the year and I know what I have to do. I've got to play a lot of minutes and I've got to play every game and I'm going to do that. And the fact that the Sixers allowed that to go on earlier this season is criminal. He shouldn't have played that many minutes. He should have. You know, all those

load management games that Kawhi was sitting out, those all should have been in beats. Like Kawhi, how could anybody vote for him for MVP? I have some Sixer fan people in my life that were going nuts about this. Why is he playing 38 minutes? Well, I think it's fair. I think it's fair. And I think going forward, now they know. Now they know. So I'm not ready to say that this is how it's going to be forever. I think there's a way to manage it. He looked a little heavy to me. I asked him about it. He mentioned that he's cut out sugars and he's eating soft foods. he's eating salmon and salads instead of steak and chicken and

all the things he would rather eat he he's aware of what he needs to do and I think he's willing to do it he's never seemed in shape to me even going to those games last year but I think that's the Shaq thing the playoff games but Shaq like Shaq said some guys can lift and be in workout all you want and they're never going to be salad eaters. And I love that because I'm like that. I've lifted weights my whole life. I've worked out my whole life. I've played basketball with people that I know I'm in better shape than them.

But I don't look like a salad eater. I never am going to. So maybe he's not a salad eater. Now, should he have lost more weight? This take. Not a salad eater. Yeah. Should he have lost more weight? This should, not a salad eater. Yeah, should he have lost more weight?

This should be your next book. Yes, the salad eaters. Are you a salad eater? I like salad. I had one this morning. Okay, yeah, but you're not a salad eater. No, I'm not a salad eater. Yeah.

I have to be. No, like when I was at my most fit, when I was like really cranking it, when I was in my 20s, right? Probably right before I burst my appendix. I think I was in the best shape of my life. And I was lifting. I was doing push-ups.

I was doing pull-ups. I was like, but I never had, you know, I never looked ripped, never. That's why the Giannis moves to America. He grows three inches and has like the craziest body probably anybody has now. Exactly. And he's, and probably still room to grow.

Oh, totally, totally. By the time people hear's, and probably still room to grow. Oh, totally. Totally. By the time people hear this, that game will have already happened. And my, my guess will be that Milwaukee will come out differently. I don't want to talk about it because it's, we're talking about something that's already happened in the future. Right,

right, right, right. Um, I still, it is interesting though, how everybody like bailed on him in the playoffs. it's fine.

Yeah, that's ridiculous. Yeah, it is ridiculous. He'll be heard from. He's, he's really good. Oh,

he's legit. And he's another guy that cares, that puts in the time, that understands what he needs to do. Became a nice passer this year. Underrated that people didn't talk enough about, I don't think, was the way he saw the court. And Bud was telling me he wasn't even sure he was capable of doing that when he first got there. It was his biggest concern. Like, can this guy play the way I want him to play?

It was seamless. The whole reporting scene these days. Hard. Would you love to, how would you like to be starting out now i just so hard no access we have a couple young people that work for us that go to locker rooms and try to do it and there's you know 40 people in there and you're getting time and it's unbelievable like i'm just you know what i am i'm like your classic a-hole now i'm your classic old school og a-hole now using connections well like so for instance the mb story i went i have a great relationship with mb i mean i went to cameroon for god's sakes you know and met had dinner with his parents in his childhood home yeah so that should give you

a little street cred and it has plus i like him he likes me i can challenge him you know yeah he's not he's not ultra sensitive or anything like he can can be at times, but he's, for the most part, he's a big boy. He can handle, you know, anything that's coming his way. So I go there and he's hurt. And when guys are hurt, as you know, they're the most ornery son of a guns. Like I've never met a player that was going through injury stuff that was pleasant. It's impossible.

They just, they're, and I get it. I totally get it. Who likes to be hurt? So he was hurt. So I couldn't even like see him to like even connect with him. He, you know, we went to one practice. He wasn't even out there. It was at, it was in Philly at their place.

So he was back in the back. I never even saw him. I got up at 4.30 in the morning to fly down there before I took the train to Brooklyn. I never even laid eyes on him. And then I get him there and then they're at practice and I'm like, hey, you know, I'm here. And his people had told me like, he's not doing anything

in the postseason. He's shutting it down. I'm like, all right. They go, you should try because you know, you're different. You know him. Shut down.

All right, fine. So then I finally, you know, I get this far away from him as close as you and I are and I'm like, what do you think? He goes, yeah,

I'll do it after the game tonight. He didn't play in the game. So now I'm like, I'm here three days and I don't really, I've talked to him a little bit now I'm like, I'm here three days. And I don't really, I've talked to him a little bit, but I'm like, this is unbelievable. You know? So then he finally did play in game four, had that great game, you know, they had the little fight with Dudley and everything and pushing. And then he just came alive. He was great. So he was in a great mood after the game. And, um, you know, he's, they're bringing them up to the podium. Cause that's how

it goes. And I'm standing at his locker and this one guy's just kind of shooting the breeze with him. So I kind of join in. And then the guy who started the conversation is just kind of standing there. And I'm like, screw it, man. I got to go for this. So I just started talking to him. And he's talking to me and I got my thing on. And everybody's glaring at me because it's against the rules.

I'm like, hey, dudes, you know know it's a doggy dog world all here take a shot at it so i talked to him for like six minutes or seven minutes actually i think it was eight minutes eight minutes and 12 seconds four days eight minutes and 12 seconds with a guy i have a great relationship with and then that's how i i got my story eight minutes and 12 seconds god over four days it's like and that's because I flew to Cameroon. Cameroon. I had to go all the way to Cameroon. That happened to get zero seconds.

Yeah. It's hard. We talked, Rassil and I talked a couple of weeks ago about, it was right after the Westbrook next question stuff about. Don't like that at all. Well, we were just like, my feeling on this is like,

we're only doing it this way because it's the way we've always done it. It hasn't evolved or changed in 70 years other than the podium part of it.

Which is, I hate. Why do we, why haven't we all put our brains together and said, let's actually come up with a better way

to do this because right now, 100% of the people involved in the process are unhappy all the time and truly hate everything about it. So why can't we fix it? Yeah, it's hard. And I don't know how we would, but it's just weird that everybody has just resigned to this

terrible process that all sides hate, nothing really good comes out of it. And even like the stuff you write, you're relying on past relationships more than anything. I don't know how we fix it. Well, I mean, so TV, as you know, is this incredibly powerful medium. Yeah. And so when I walk into a locker room now, players are saying hello to me that I know I've never spoken to.

And so there's the open- Say sorry I'm in SportsCenter or something. Yeah, or around the horn or whatever. I couldn't believe that when I started doing Countdown, how much that flipped with guys. No, it really makes a difference. It's unbelievable. The credibility from it is insane. People come up and hug is insane do you know how easy it is to be on TV

you need a face but it's like this credibility that comes with it so that's the uneven playing field for print guys who I have great respect for I'm a print person first when kids come up to you and they're like oh man I love your work

I'm thinking you don't know my work you watch me on Around the Horn and I'm not disparaging Around the Horn. I love it. I have a blast. It's a great show. Tony's a talented guy, but my work is like, I've been writing my whole life. And it's just, I don't know what the answer is. I mean, it used to just all be organic. Practice started. That's not realistic anymore though. These guys are too famous. Well, and there's too many well and guys who even aren't famous yet feel like they're famous

right and there's too many there's too many of us yep and and you know back like I said back then

you went to practice early and you got guys or you stayed really late after practice and waited till they come out or you know I guess I don't know what I'm looking for

because I think that Celtics is a good example right nobody really wrote about what was going on but yet like when we went to Sloan conference which was one of the times it really bubbled up every single person covering the league and working the league all they're talking about is what the hell is going on with the Celtics right right and yet nobody could really write about it and nobody really had the access to write about it or if you had the access

you couldn't burn the source who gave you well stuff you needed to do. And that's like, there's this balance that is just so out of whack. I think that's the big problem today too, is just, you know, again, I have sympathy for staffs that are smaller. So you're not just the beat guy, you're the Sunday notes guy, you're this guy, you're that guy, you're doing all of this. And to your point, you've got to have access. You't burn guys i guess but that's my biggest concern never mind the access like what happened to real reporting what happened to like taking a deep breath and telling a player you know what i'm writing a story about you you're not gonna like it and here's what i'm writing talk me out of it you did that with jaylen brown yeah i think you're one of the ones that will still be

like look here's what i see I talked to a bunch of people I reported this you're probably not going to be happy he was mad after that story right oh he's still mad I shouldn't say that that's not fair he's just not you know we had a very good back and forth that doesn't exist anymore I respect that

by the way everything you wrote in that story was 100% accurate and he's been a different guy since. Well, you know what happened? And he's been a different guy since December. Right. But you know what happened with that story? It really wasn't me or the story. It was the reaction to the story.

Because it was like, to your point, oh, yeah, he does suck. And then talk radio. And then the Sunday night shows. And now all of a sudden, everybody's ganging up on him. And he's looking at me like, what did you do this for? You know? And I- The power of that is pretty crazy. But the thing, the irony is what's wrong with Jalen Brown was the underground Celtics story for four weeks. It was.

And your job is to sniff that out and write a good piece about it. And I thought I was sympathetic to the idea that this kid thought he was going to be a star. And now all of a sudden he comes back and he can't even, he can't even, you know, get the minutes he needs to, to accomplish what he wants. So I thought I was, I always liked to have a human element to every story I do.

And, and I always tell guys usually what, what I'm going to write, but sometimes they, they're not listening until it's out there. So we'll be fine. I'm not worried about jail. Or they have two people in their life who's texting them the story and saying, what the hell is this?

And people that were in his corner were like, yeah, well, what about Gordon Hayward's numbers? I'm like, all right, yeah, I'll get to that. But right now, the whole Gordon Hayward undercurrent to me was dangerous. Yeah, he's Brad's guy. Yeah, he's Brad. He's only playing because he's Brad's guy. He's a white guy. Yeah, I didn Brad's guy. Yeah, he's Brad. He's only playing because he's Brad's guy. Yeah, come on. Yeah, I didn't like that.

But yet, who am I to tell those players, if they in fact felt that way, that their feelings shouldn't be validated. If they really felt that way, that's a story in itself. The Celtics were like a This Is Us season. They were a little bit. But you talked to Danny, who I did the other day,

and he's like, no, we had some, sure, We had some rough patches. We had a lot of great moments too. And I'm like, oh, come on, dude. Like if they win, if they go to the conference, if they go to, even if they go to the conference finals, I just can't even believe what they've been through to get there. It's a movie. It's like a 30 for 30. Danny, I mean, he's just in the same mood all the time. Yeah. That's about right. So the team bus could be on fire and guys could be jumping out of it. It's fine. We had a bus in 84 that caught on fire. I think sometimes you get weary of people. I think he's just tired of seeing me. You've been in his life for four decades though. Oh, for so long. And I'm sure he's just really tired of seeing me. He was probably, you've been in his life for four decades though. Oh, for so long. And I'm sure he's just

really tired of me. Every once in a while I'll get a text from him. He's like, what? This isn't even right at all. Right. You know, and I'm like,

all right. What's weird is I feel like the sourcing and the access in some ways is better than ever. Like the ability to DM players and text players.

Oh, you know why that is too. Because all these assistant GMs are trying to get a leg up and they're no dummies. They're plugged into Woj or you or me or whoever they need. I've never found in the trap. Yeah. Well, I did the only one I did with Daryl, but I didn't help him get the job.

But Daryl was the only one I knew like pretty well. Right. On his way up. I know Daryl really well, but it's funny. You know what's so funny about Daryl? I never think of him, this is going to sound so dumb. I never think of him

as like the GM of the Rockets. I just think of him like Daryl at Sloan. Right, right, right. Daryl, the guy who runs Sloan, who also has another job. The guy who I was in a curling competition with.

Right. Right? And so I probably should utilize my relationship with Daryl more effectively. He needs you for Sloan. Let's take a break and talk about ZipRecruiter. Having a high sports IQ.

Very important. I'd like to think I have a high sports IQ. I know Jackie McMullen does. I know some basketball players do. I'd say there's probably about somewhere between 3 and 13 in the playoffs right now who have the proper

high basketball IQ. Jimmy Butler, secretly high basketball IQ. Has a sense of when things are kind of falling the wrong way, steps up. Sign of a high sports IQ. Hey, when it comes to hiring, you don't need a high hiring IQ. You just need ZipRecruiter. Their powerful technology scans thousands of resumes to find people with the right experience for your job. The tech doesn't just stop there. It even learns what kind of candidates you like and invites them more to apply. ZipRecruiter is so effective. Four out of five employees who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate through the site within their first day.

My listeners, guess what? You can still try it for free. The offer is still available. Go to ZipRecruiter.com slash BS. That is ZipRecruiter.com slash BS. Listeners, guess what? You can still try it for free. The offer is still available. Go to ZipRecruiter.com slash BS. That is ZipRecruiter.com slash BS. ZipRecruiter is the smartest way to hire. The whole source game, protecting people.

Yeah, it's hard. I'll get access. I'm too old for that. I just, I mean, I came up in a different way. You know, the whole influx of the major talent agencies and representing the players and the journalists that's another thing that's yeah that's it's just different world i'm not in it what about the whole we all know what's going on but we're not going to write this until the trade happens or the summer like like the magic johnson thing yeah i still think people knew no but i still haven't

read what the hell happened oh right but with him leaving the lakers yeah it's all well what happened we we everyone is connected this team genie bustle talked to anybody why won't anybody write what happened well i i mean i think what happened you i think you know what happened i think do i i'm not sure i do irvin wanted to be magic he didn't want to he didn't want to be the president of the lake he wanted he wanted to get back to being magic where everybody loved him I don't I think that's part of it I don't believe it because it was too abrupt it was too weird

it was too weird that just on a random day he goes into work and doesn't tell Jeannie Buss so you think he's got a little dirt in there some little something happened that's interesting I think there's some impetus but I do think what you're saying is true like this idea that everything all these things that everybody knows but nobody says or writes and you know i get in trouble all the time for this because

like so i was the laker game and it was uh i met snoop dogg that night it was like a big night for me snoop dogg and jack nicholson who i had met before but actually got to talk with amazing amazing he's still going to like it is and i was like had met before, but actually got to talk with. Amazing. Amazing. He's still going to Lake. It is. And I was like, I was like, I'm not going to talk to him about The Shining too obvious. So I started talking about The Pledge, which is like, did you ever see that movie? Swerve. You swerved them. I did. It's like the darkest movie ever. I saw one, I remember I had a foot surgery and I was home and I like rented it and I watched it and I was like, this movie is so freaking disturbing.

That was your opener with Jack Nicholson, The Pledge? I did because I figured, who has ever asked him? And it was the worst idea because he's like, oh man, that movie. Oh God, that movie. Because I probably didn't do well at all. And I go, no, that movie. I said, I was up all night. He goes, oh man, that movie did

not do well. That was not a good movie. I said, yes, it was. It was a really good movie. He goes, I said, the problem is it was too dark. He goes he goes i know but we had to stick the you know the guy there whoever the author of the book is we had to stick exactly to that oh man i can't believe you brought that movie it's like bringing up the 83 season of bird i love the 83 season what it was like really i got a big kick out of it anyway but all that night night. So I'm sitting there and right after Snoop Dogg, I'm sitting there and Rich Paul comes over. I'm talking to Rich Paul for a while.

And then I'm talking to somebody else came over and then somebody else came over. And I talked to like six people that night. They were all sort of related to the Lakers in some way. And they all saw me talking to Rich Paul. And, you know, a couple of them were like, well, you know that he wants Luke Walton gone and blah, blah, blah. And all this stuff was going on. I'm like, well, this is really weird. So I started asking around and everyone's like, oh them were like well you know that he wants Luke Walton gone and blah blah blah and all this stuff was going on I'm like well this is really weird so I started asking around everyone's like oh yeah well we all know that you know LeBron and those people they

want him gone I'm like we do because like I hadn't seen that I knew that just from being over here okay but I never heard anybody say it I never heard anybody write it so I spent the next couple of days just sort of poking around and then I got on our pod and i said you know it's brian windhorse who knows a lot about lebron oh yeah and i said is it safe to say that those guys want luke out of here and he goes i think that's fair to say you know and that that's all i said and that thing 17 blog headlines just like blew up yeah and i'm thinking why is this blowing up when everybody already knew it? Why? Because it's aggregate, right? It'll probably happen again as we're talking about it. I was trying to think, every time I do a podcast with anyone, I always try to figure out what would be the weird headline that blows up. You just never know. That one's

an old one, so it can't be now. Whatever gets traffic. Yeah, I still don't know. I don't think LeBron's a hard guy to figure out. When he's behind somebody, he's very open about it. And when he's not behind somebody, he's suspiciously not open about it. Right. And at no point did he ever go in. And I guess when you're one of the best players in the game, you should use your cachet. I mean, you know, like Bird was never, he liked Jimmy Rogers so much. They were, you know, I mean, now we're going way, way back.

But he thought the world of Jimmy Rogers is an assistant coach, but you were there. Like he did not want Jimmy Rogers to be the coach of the Celtics because he wasn't handling it well. And he couldn't hide it. The good ones, the great ones can't. Yeah. They just can't.

The intolerance for people that they feel like. And sometimes it's not because, like, it wasn't because Jimmy Rogers didn't know what he was doing. That wasn't it. Who knows, you know. By the way, you want to talk about

load management. Casey Jones, the year after the Celtics won the 86 title, you should go back to those box scores. Bird playing like 45 minutes

on a back-to-back. I mean, Bird, McHale, all those dudes. If we had all the stuff we had now, I think everybody's

playing for 20 years. For sure. I feel like everybody's going to- that everybody's here they told him the space in your foot's getting bigger and bigger yeah the crack is growing he's like played anyway unbelievable nuts but they all did parish did too just a little quieter they all had stuff do you think lebron wins another title in our lifetime wow that's a good question because Because I would say no. Probably not. You know, I mean, there was some, there was a little chink

in the armor this year. Yeah. He's getting older, you know, my father time's undefeated, right? Unless it's Tom Brady. Unless it's Tom Brady.

Tom Brady is, who's the vampire in Twilight, Edward? Right. He's like a thousand years old. He is. That's Tom Brady. But Tom Brady also, he's the vampire in Twilight, Edward? Right. He's like a thousand years old. He is. That's Tom Brady. But Tom Brady also-

He's going to turn out as a vampire. And he changed, but the thing I love about Tom Brady is he changed everything. Yeah. He changed everything to make this happen. And LeBron, look, he takes care of his body, obviously. He works out all the time. There's a lot to admire about the way LeBron approaches his craft. But this Anthony Davis thing just blew up

in ways that, I mean, do you honestly believe that they'll trade Anthony Davis to the Lakers? Because I don't think it'll ever happen. I think it's probably like,

Well, they also have like probably the fourth best trade package to offer. Right, but even if they, even if they didn't, like even if they had all the assets, I just don't think it'll ever happen. I don't think so either.

It just got blown up in ways. The bigger question to me is who plays with them. And they're going to end up having to roll the dice with whoever. So let's go through the usual subsets. Let's go through the names. Durant's not going there. I don't think Klay Thompson is going anywhere. No way.

So is it Kemba Walker? Is it Kyrie Irving? If Kyrie went there, that would be hilarious and ridiculous. If Kyrie Irving went to play for LeBron. I mean, celebrity couples get back together after they broke up. No, I'll tell you, every time I talk to Kyrie, he says another nice thing about LeBron. That feud, for whatever reason,

or I don't know if you can really even, it wasn't a feud. You can't have a feud with someone that you never really actually had it out with. They tried to cheat him and Kyrie blamed him. Right, right. But to this day, I'm still not sure, 100% sure LeBron really did that.

I really think that was Griff saying, you know what, the GM Griff saying, I think this kid's going to want to leave. It's my job to find out what I can get for him if he does, if he wants to go. The one thing we know for sure happened was there was a world in which Kyrie, Paul George, and LeBron were on the 2017-18 Cavaliers. And they went to him and they said, if we do this Paul George trade and we trade this draft pick- Will you stay? Will you stay? Will you sign an extension? He said, no.

That's right. So that's on him. That's on him. And I think Kyrie really did chafe and all the things that he said. He really believed that LeBron wanted him out. I'm not 100% sure that was the case. I'm really not. But it doesn't matter. It's kind of like, did Isaiah and all those guys really freeze Michael Jordan out? All that matters is that Michael Jordan 100% felt like they did. You know, the tape didn't really back it up. It doesn't at all. It's really a strange one. I don't understand where that one came from.

But once Jordan made up his mind it was true, it almost doesn't matter whether it's true or not. I felt like that always had to do more with the Isaiah growing up in Chicago. That was a turf type thing more than anything. Like Jordan wanted that to be his city. He needed a reason to hate Isaiah. Right. And you know what?

Isaiah was an easy target. He always was an easy target because he, you know, and he's really, he's not remembered properly in the realm of history for how great he was. That was one of the highlights of my career. We did the bad boys pistons thing and we were doing the postgame show. So he was on it, but he had never seen the doc. So we had to watch the whole show and then we did a live postgame show. Oh, that's cool.

And we're watching the doc with him, me and Jalen. And he's crying like three, four different times. It was like so emotional for those guys because they felt like, you know, they cared so much about that team. They were just kicked under the rug. You guys were in basketball. You're not Jordan. You're not Magic.

You're not Bird. Still happening. They never got their due. It's still happening. And he's watching this doc and he's like, oh, my God, we're getting our due. Right. And it was like this, it was just this crazy to be in the room with him for that. I believe that.

He hugged me and Jalen after. He started crying again. He's like, thank you so much. Well, think about that guy, like what he did. And look, he made a lot of mistakes too. A lot. You lot you know i mean so we don't have to get into all that but but to me this this feels a little bit like that with kairi like whatever the truth was it almost didn't matter because kairi had made up his mind that lebron was behind it and that that's all that mattered and so i'm out and now maybe over time he's he's revisited it he's looked at it and

decided maybe it wasn't exactly quite the way he thought. And he also realized how hard it is to run a team, to be a leader. It's like, it's not for everyone. And the difference between LeBron and Kyrie is that LeBron's an extrovert and Kyrie's an introvert. He, uh, God, he, some of the interviews he gave. Kyrie? It's like, what are you doing? He's a stream of consciousness guy.

How many times can you talk about how you were in the finals? And like, he just, I don't think he saw the cause and effect. No, he didn't at all. And he doesn't understand at all young people and just anything. Right. But I think he figured it out now. He is such a brilliant basketball player. I actually think he's a genius as a basketball player.

I think some of the stuff he does is like a genius level. I'm going to tell you this. This is really funny. I have a story coming out in a couple of days. In it, Kyrie Irving says, I'm a genius at basketball. I think he might be. No, I agree. Durant thinks that.

I've talked to Durant about that. Well, they're really tight. Yeah, but he was saying that years ago. He was like, that guy is a genius. He studies the game. Works on the moves he works on like nothing you see him do is by accident or nothing you see him do he hasn't tried before and accomplished before see this celtics team i don't know how they're doing it but they're sucking me back in because oh you just feel like telling if they can just keep their

shit together for six weeks and they're in these games no matter what arena they're in if you have that dude in the last four minutes he can actually score baskets and there's only five guys in the league like this or six or whatever no there's no number but but he has to be careful about like when they start to lose their grip and and it's like wrote a memory he starts thinking oh no they're falling apart i got to take it over and i wish he would just wait a little bit. Yeah. Like just wait a couple of possessions.

Like when they, when it gets to the end of the game, it starts getting tight. I'll be sitting with Mike and I'll be like, one, two, three. He's like, are you doing that again? Because I'm counting the passes. Yeah. Because if they have more than two passes, they're going to get a basket. And guys are moving. And half the time it's zero.

Just do it. It's a little exercise. Have fun with it in the final minutes. If it's just four guys playing standing leg statues. Forget it. They can't do it. I don't care how good you are. It doesn't work.

It kind of works for the Rockets a little bit. But ultimately, I don't know if it gets them there either. It's tough because at some point, the threes have to go in. If you're relying on the threes like that. And the thing with those is it becomes fool's gold a little bit where when they're not going in and it's a big moment, it feels cataclysmic. And we felt it in the Celtics-Cavs game seven. We felt it in that Rockets thing where it's like, oh my God, they're not going in. What now?

The only thing you can do is keep shooting them. And that's what happens to Boston. That's why when Boston can look as good as they did in this game one, they can look equally as bad. When they don't shoot the ball well, everything falls apart for them. They have trouble handling adversity when things go really bad. That's the one thing this team has not proven to me yet. So I don't know.

People keep asking me, what are they going to do? I'm like, I really don't know. And I don't even really want to predict. It's why Philly's intriguing, even though you could have also told me they were going to get swept, where they scored their baskets at the end of that game, too, in a bunch of ways. And then Embiid made, I thought, the best play of his career. That big basket underneath the basket. That salvaged double spin move on Gasol, and it was like, whoa, all right. Yeah, he's awesome.

It's too bad he's not healthy. It would be really fun to see if he was at 100%. And Jimmy Butler, Joel told me when I was there, he said, look, he's the closer. I'm good with it. He said, you know how it is at the end of games. It's hard to get big men the ball. Jimmy Butler, I'll do my thing.

And then at the end of the game, because remember that other, you found Jimmy on the three-point line? Yeah. He's like, I'm totally fine with Jimmy Butler being the closer. And I laugh because when Jimmy first got there, remember, Embiid's like, oh, I'm this baser. I don't like what this is doing to me. And now those guys are thick as thieves.

That works. They're good. I would find Embiid a million dollars per three that he takes in the last four minutes of a playoff game. It's a million dollars every time. You're just not allowed. It's a million dollar fight each time.'s not allowed. It's a million dollar fine each time. I used to feel that way about

every single Celtics player when Brad Stevens first got there. I was like, what are you doing? Remember Jared Sullinger? I'm like, stop it already! Good God! Young Jackie age 15, he's just shooting threes in the corner. Never shot a three-pointer in my life. I know, but now, if you were in

2019, you're still trying to play real basketball? Yeah, I still want to get in the post and hit shot a three-pointer in my life. I know, but now, if you were in 2019, you're still trying to play real basketball? Yeah, I still want to get in the post and like hit you with my elbow and get three offensive fouls in a game. We're just going to raise

a generation of three-pointer three-point shooters. That's going to be the new inefficiency is going to be somebody who can go down. They didn't have the three-point line

when I played. Didn't have it. That's how old I am. Yeah. So, and they didn't have the women's ball when I played either. Like the first summer I played in a women's league and I am. Yeah. So, and, and they didn't have the women's ball when I played either. Like the first summer I played in a women's league

and I got the ball and like, whoa, I felt like I could almost palm it. It was so great. I'm like, I'm going to get a thousand rebounds with this ball. Of course, I still got tired.

So that didn't change. Who's your women's basketball player goat? Taurasi? Yes, but it should have been Cheryl Miller if she'd stayed healthy. Cheryl Miller was one of the most incredible basketball players

I've ever seen. Well, she has no league to play in. Right, yeah. It's just too bad though. She was incredible and she hadn't gotten hurt. But Taurasi, what she's done everywhere

on every level and just, like she's the one that's like, I loved it when Gino said that one year. They're like, well, why are you so sure you guys are going?

Because we have Diana Taurasi and you don't. Yeah. I love that. But there's a bunch of great players coming along. There'll be so many. It seems like every year there's some new awesome player that comes into somewhere. You're like Maya Moore.

You thought maybe it would be her, but she just never had the mental tenacity. Diana Taurasi is Gino Arama. They're the same person. Most incredible thing I ever saw in my life was at the Olympics in London. They won the gold medal. And Gino had one of his migraines. Didn't even come out post-game. Didn't even come out.

And Diana's sitting there and they've won the gold medal, you know, again. Right? And they're asking her, what does it mean to you? And she starts talking about how, yeah, you know, he's, I know he's an ass. I know he drives you all crazy. And, you know, I know he can be really tough, but like, you know, I've told him things. I never told my parents. And she's just talking and the tears are just streaming down her face and i was like this is the most what a shame like that's what makes me mad about the women's game like everybody should have been writing about that that should have been national like she's

sitting there streaming talking like you know her voice isn't breaking but just the emotion just tears streaming down her face. I thought, wow, this is an incredible moment. I think this decade it flipped, though. I've noticed it with the ringer staff. I think the under 30 generation. Respect the women's game. They completely respect it.

I mean, I will fully admit, I've made my shared WNBA jokes over the years. What I've noticed, and by the way, I really liked the Friday night, those two Final Four games. Yeah, they were great. I think that's always like a really fun night of basketball. It is. And they were good. And you know,

what's great about the women's game is it isn't just UConn, right? It's Baylor, it's Notre Dame. And for a while, there was South Carolina. You know, you feel like Louisville could maybe do it. Now that coach has stayed there

and everybody thought he was going to go to Tennessee. And you know, maybe Tennessee is revived with a new coach. That's always good. The WNBA part, I just don't know how they figured that out. They can't play in the summer.

They just got to swallow hard and put on their big girl pants and play all winter like the men do. That's what I think. They have to do that and they have to stop playing in NBA arenas and these places where when you go, you just kind of feel sad. They should be targeting these, make it a supply and demand places where when you go, you just kind of feel sad. It should be, they should be targeting like these, you know, make it a supply and demand thing where it's like, these are the best players in the world.

There's 2,500 seats. It's basically a sport for TV and these gyms are going to be packed and we're playing during the winter and this is just how it goes. Yeah, we're playing the player in the college arenas where you can maybe get 5,900, you know, because I think they could do that. I think that could support that. But they should be playing at my Holy Cross gym, places like that, where it's like, you want it packed. You want a real atmosphere.

You're not getting atmosphere in the freaking Staples Center. It's idiotic. Well, and it's funny. You go back to look at the history of the WNBA and the New York Liberty on opening night. The place is banged out. Go back and look at those clips. It just wasn't sustainable. No.

Yeah, it's too bad. No, I agree with you. Especially with how many people need content now. I think do it during the actual season. Try to strategically pick some days where you know the NBA is a little late. Right. And there's so many people looking for content now.

I actually think it would work. So anyway. Hope so. Jackie Mack, so many people looking for content now. I actually think it would work. So anyway. Hope so. Jackie Mack, always a pleasure. That was fun. I'm excited to read your story that you're being secretive about. I'm not being secretive about it. You still want to step on it.

You're saving it for Brian Woodhorse. That's fine. You know, the paycheck. Your company lady. Respect the paycheck, right? Well, I'm excited to read it. Thanks for coming on. This is a pleasure.

You know a lot of it already, but it's more Kyrie babbling. I'm excited that somebody actually is going to put this in print. Yeah. Kyrie babbling. There's some Kyrie babbling going on. Great. It's good. I look forward to it.

All right. Thanks. Thanks. Oh, let's take a break to talk about two of my favorites. Two old OGs on the BS podcast. Squarespace. Turn your dream into a reality with Squarespace to make it easier than ever to launch your passion project. Whether you're looking to start a new

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And speaking of Hall of Famers for this podcast, we're also brought to you by SimpliSafe Home Security. Before you guys start giving me crap saying I like SimpliSafe because they're from Boston. Not true. I like SimpliSafe because they're from Boston. Not true. I like SimpliSafe because they have a great security system, awesome protection, easy to use, and they're from Boston. SimpliSafe got started after a Harvard engineer's friends got burglarized when they went to get a security system. It was a hassle, too complicated, too expensive, terrible contracts. This guy said, voila, I'm building something better.

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way back then, another lifetime. He is now at the MLB Network and he is on DAZN. He will be calling the big fight this weekend. Canelo, Jacobs, it's happening. There's always a great fight first weekend in May. Why is that, Brian Kenny? Why do we always put one big fight on the first weekend in May? Cinco de Mayo has become a thing.

I think it kind of just meshed into when they think a fight can be sold, you know, just like they think, you know, you know how the calendar works. It also works for like Mexican independence day.

So that helps, you know, cause fans will come into Vegas or LA. But you know, there's always that thought of, remember the big fights were September, then November, never at Christmas.

No science to it. There's just some like what we think people or when we think people will be able to watch a fight. It's weird. Cause you know, on the one hand, I kind of hate that we waste so much good sports on the same weekend. But on the other hand, I'm kind of used to it because that's become like a signature weekend. And I don't remember when it started, but, you know,

sometimes there's game sevens. I think the Kentucky Derby, that's this weekend, right? Don't we have that this weekend too? I think so. You got me. It usually is. Yeah, it's like horses, boxing, NHL playoffs, NBA playoffs, baseball's going.

It's always great. But this boxing, Canelo, who I actually went to the fight when he lost to Mayweather. And at the time I was like, you know what? I think he's good, but I also think he's a little bit of a little hyped, a little, I'm not, I'm not sure what the ceiling is for him. I think he kind of is what he is. And then as his career developed the next couple of years, that ceiling raised and he's one of my favorite guys to watch now. And I think he's really developed as a fighter. Actually, I think there's sequencing to his punches down. There's a whole bunch of stuff that I'm not sure he was doing when he was younger, which makes sense because you're supposed to get smarter as you get older. But I wasn't sure it was going to happen. What's the biggest surprise with you with how he's

developed as a fighter? Well, yeah, it's a lot of subtle things, but I think it's almost like you could look at it like we do sabermetrically to a baseball player in that he was really good when he was young. And you have to judge a guy differently when he's 21, 22 on the way up. And remember, I think most everyone thought he was a little early in asking for Floyd. Floyd is the most difficult guy to hit in the sport. And he's the one guy that can just make you look bad. And my thought, too, was that Canelo was not quite ready for this. To his credit, he wanted him right then and there.

He could have waited. You know, the Floyd way would have been to wait another year or two. You know, let him get a little older. But Canelo didn't want to do that. So I think he has just gotten better. But with the opposition, he's faced difficult boxers before Austin Trout, Eris Landilara. Then he goes after Golovkin. So you have to give him credit for going after the quality of opposition, having some close fights.

What impressed me the most about the Mayweather fight is he didn't end up like, you know, Chico Corrales or Ricky Hatton, where, you know, it's reasonably close, but as the fight wears on, Floyd starts pot-shotting you, you're tired of missing him, and then Floyd can embarrass you and knock you out. That did not happen to Canelo, and that's what stood out to me. I thought, wow, he could have gone away, he's frustrated, he's tired, but he stayed mentally in that fight to the very end. That impressed me. And he's fighting middleweight here. Jacobs, there is a size difference. And people always go back and forth on whether this means anything with the size difference.

Do you even look at that stuff as you break down fights like this? Oh, yeah. If a guy is a full frame bigger, you know what I mean? It's kind of like Amir Khan fighting bigger guys. Like Amir Khan, you know, moving up in weight and fighting bigger guys. And you're like, wait a second. Or just like Mikey Garcia, you know, moving up and fighting the welterweight champion of the world. It's like, yeah, you know, you think, oh, he can fight this guy. Yeah, but you're forgetting that maybe their skill is even,

but one guy's two weight class is bigger. It makes a big difference. In this case, I don't think it will. I think Canelo gets big. Canelo was a super middleweight against Rocky Fielding in the last fight, and he's a buzzsaw. So I'm not looking at it like Danny Jacobs. I've called fights with Danny when I was doing PBC on Fox, he's a slight guy. He's not the thickest guy. So yeah, he's, he's a little

bigger, but he's not like some big, uh, light heavyweight type guy. He looks like a middleweight. He has a middleweight build. Canelo is a full size middleweight. How would you rank these titles? The inter international boxing Federation World Midway title, the World Boxing Association Super World Midway title, and the World Boxing Council World Midway title. Give me your power rankings from three to one, your favorites, your personal. Oh, it depends from weight to weight.

You know, I mean, we've been doing this, I've been following this since like the 70s, you know, with Matthew Saad Mohammed. You know, like when it was just WBA and WBC. I love that. It makes you crazy. Yeah, it makes you crazy. But you always have to look, all right, who's the real champ? And here it is.

Canelo's the real champ. I'm even on the DAZN broadcast. I'm not going to be calling it a unification. I'll avoid it at all costs. I want to spell it out. Daniel Jacobs is a'm not going to be calling it a unification. I'll avoid it at all costs. I want to spell it out. Daniel Jacobs is a top contender. He's worthy of this shot.

Everyone's excited about it because they know he's legit. However, you know, his title is not the same as Canelo. You know, Canelo beat the man who beat the man and then beat, you know, Glove King. And no matter how you think it panned out, he's the champ. I go back to, you know, we all know Bernard Hopkins was the champ. We all know Roy Jones was a champ. Floyd Mayweather was a champ. So anybody walking around with another belt that fought them, it's not a unification. You know, and I think fans have to, you know, want to recognize that.

And we did fights this weekend, Bill, where I had to say, hey, both these guys have belts. You know, Danny Roman and TJ Dahony, It was a great fight at 122 pounds. One had a WBA, the other had an IBF, but maybe they're not the best guys in the weight class at all. However, they were, you know, legit titleists. And by squaring off, the winner has two belts and he has more of a mandate walking around that weight class. So in some weight classes, it's not clear who the best

guy is, but here it is at 160 pounds. It's clear. It's Canelo. It would be hilarious if the NBA worked this way where like we had a Portland golden state Western finals and Dame Lillard was the IBF point guard belt. And Steph Curry had the WBA and WBC point guard belts. There was just, nobody could agree on who was the best guy. But I do think, you know, one of the things I like about using the belt analogy and the thing that matters is really just who's the guy. And we all kind of know who the guy is. And that's what we have now in basketball where Harden and Giannis, it was back and forth between them, who's going to win the MVP.

Harden was unbelievable. But now we're in the playoffs and Durant's kind of the guy and you're going to have to beat Durant to win the title this year. He's the guy. And I think boxing, you know, weird roundabout way has always worked like that. No matter who had what belt,

you still kind of always knew who the guy was. Don't you agree? Yeah. Well, sometimes, but it takes a while and it's difficult. And I really wish, I wish it wasn't that way. I wish you just had the one belt. When you, like we have one champion, it brings focus to the entire division. And I think everybody makes more money. You know, I know acting in Europe. Yeah. I think everybody, once you know who the guy is, then like number two

versus number three means a lot. You know, it's not like that's some chump fight. No, no. If you're top 10, top two, top 10 guys are fighting each other. It means something. So I think it hurts boxing in the marketplace when you don't quite know who the champ is. And that's happening a lot now because we do have like the separate promoters and entities that are there. And there's a natural tendency for most places anyway, to protect their guy. So you think it hurts boxing? Oh, I don't think there's any question. I mean, it takes, I mean, it takes a lot for Canelo to be recognized as the middleweight champ. That's why I'm careful to not go unification. And,

and I, I've been saying this all the way back to when I was talking to Charm Bay Mitchell, you know, or talking to Zab Judah, you know, like they say, Hey man, you're acting like I've, I've got some paper belt. And I'm like, no, no, no. I said, but this guy is the champ. If it was Floyd, if it was Miguel Cotto, if it was Shane Mosley, I was like, I know you have a belt all due respect. It's not the world championship. And I don't disrespect guys. I talk about guys who have the belts and what belts are at stake when we called his own fights, because there's lots of title fights, but it's different when you say like, just like we had this week,

we had the super flyweight championship. Yeah. You know, it was Juan Francisco Estrada beating, you know, Srisaket, Sor Rungbisai. I know they're not names,

but Sor Rungbisai beat Chocolatito, you know, who was number one pound. Yeah. So it's really cool when you can say, Hey, I don't, I know you probably don't know who this guy from Thailand is,

but he's the champion of the world. And now Juan Francisco Estrada is the champion of the world. That, after a while, I think resonates and makes everything more marketable. Yeah, I see your point. I guess the point I was trying to make was, we're almost in a post-belt society for boxing where this has been broken for so long that I stopped being bothered by it 20 years ago. You know, this got, this started to get really super wonky. Whenever, when did the IBF really start to come into,

was it sometime in the late 80s? Well, all of a sudden the IBF showed up with the third belt. And everyone was just confused constantly. And every fight was for a belt. And it had to shake out a little bit. And eventually we all kind of looked at each other. And no matter who had what belt, there was always like one guy.

And so the onus was almost on us to figure it out. And I'm kind of just used to it now. It doesn't even bother me anymore. I mean. Right. Well, again, you're a hardcore. And I'm kind of just used to it now. It doesn't even bother me anymore. I mean, right. Well, again, you're a hardcore fan.

I'm thinking like the general fan. True. But we've lost it. It's a post-apocalyptic society. It's done. It's over. We're just wandering around like boxing zombies now. It'll never come back.

The only chance we have. So this Trump presidency, you know, out of, out of all the wacky things he does day to day, we tweak. But if he actually got committed to the idea of a sports czar and appointed a sports czar and really empowered this person, one of the first things that person would do is try to fix boxing, right? Just be like, hey, we're settling this now. There's one belt. This is the only belt that matters. And then that would actually work. But I feel like until that happens, we're, this will just never be fixed.

We'll die. And this will be the same, you know? Yeah. You're probably right. And maybe, you know, we are, you're right. It's a good way of putting it. I might use that this weekend. It's a post belt post-apocalyptic belt sport. And then it becomes like, how big of a celebrity are you and how often do you fight? You know, just like if you're,

do you like Errol Spence or do you like Bud Crawford? Um, you know, hopefully that percolates enough and the guys stay in a weight class where you get a great fight. Cause there's no question when you get a big fight, it helps the whole sport. You know,

when we ever get, you know, Anthony Joshua against Wilder or Fury, like how about any, any version of those? It would be so big because, you know, you just wouldn't know who the heavyweight champion is. That still matters. That still resonates.

Yeah. And I think Lomachenko has gotten to that point now where I don't even know what, what belts he's holding these days, but I know he's going to be holding them for a while and he's going to destroy everyone in his path. And he's just the guy. And at some point he's going to probably have to move up. I don't know how many pounds you think he could put on realistically. Um, I don't think he could get to welterweight realistically against the top guys. So maybe he's 140. He tops out. He's not a big guy.

Yeah, I don't think. I agree with that. What's your biggest, that guy really shouldn't have put on that extra nine pounds to climb into that next weight class boxing tragedy? Mine is when Roy Jones Jr. started fighting heavyweight. It was just too big. Come on, Roy Jones Jr. But it heavyweight. It was just too big. Come on, Roy Jones Jr. But it was exciting for a while. I know, but I also think it was, you know,

you're meant to fight relatively around the weight class you were meant to be in. That was crazy. I mean, he was fighting dudes that were 30 pounds, 40 pounds heavier than him. Right, and he never really capitalized on it. No. It was thrilling to see the best guy in the world go up against John Ruiz, who at the time was actually a top five heavyweight. It was no joke.

It was the worst, worst pay-per-view fighter we've probably ever had, John Ruiz. Was anyone ever satisfied with a John Ruiz fight? That one. Against Roy Jones. I was satisfied with that one. You liked that one. Okay. Right. that one we're against Roy Jones you like that one okay right so I you know to answer your question actually the first thing that flashed into my mind was Alexis Arguello going up against Aaron Pryor yeah remember Arguello had won three weight classes and was the champ moving up through

uh one to a featherweight then 130 and lightweight, and then he went to 140, and then he had the super fight, two of them, with Aaron Pryor at 140. Think of that. I mean, we're blurred on that now because Pacquiao's ascension was so mind-blowing, but that was also incredible that one guy could be a champ, almost of four weight classes. I watched that fight in the moment, as I know you did. I was rooting for, didn't the Mancini fight had happened before the prior fight with Arguello? Huh, I'd have to think, I'm not sure. You mean against Dooku Kim? No, no, no, Arguello versus when Arguello knocked out Mancini.

Oh, wasn't that after? I thought that was after. Maybe it was after. There was some reason I was rooting for Aaron Pryor against Arguello. I don't know why, but I was in on Pryor. And then you come to find out after. We still don't know what he was on in that fight, but it was like the all-drug Olympics skit on SNL with Phil Hartman when his arms come off on the weight. He had Panama Brown in his corner doing God knows what, and Pryor's just, God only knows. But he had a lot of energy in that fight. Yeah, well, that was not that bottle.

Still to this day, people say, not that bottle, the bottle I mixed. Right. People still say that in boxing. Don't give him that bottle. Give him the bottle I mixed. Right. People still say that in boxing. Don't give him that bottle. Give him the bottle I mixed. Uh-oh. I think we're saying that in a few sports now. Oh, yeah.

No, you're right. You're right. How popular is Canelo in your opinion? Oh, I think he's massive. He's a massive star. I mean, and certainly the way the demographic goes now in boxing as well. I think, you know, it's the key is to stay, to stay this good in your post prime, you know, you're building your brand. So your brand, like this probably happens in a lot of

things, your brand becomes more important than your actual skill, but you have to keep winning. You know, that's kind of the beauty of, say, baseball, is that you at least used to be able to age while you were famous, and then you could still be on top. So Canelo is just getting big famous in, like, the Northeast. He's big in the Southwest, the Mexican fans, obviously. And I think now he's still in his prime. If he fights as often as he has been

and keeps winning, you know, he'll be, you know, one of the biggest global stars we've seen ever in the sport. You know, there's no reason why not. And it is part of the, again, the emerging demographic of this country. And it's a matter of him, you know him still delivering the goods. And I've seen no reason why he can't do that. I was right. Arguello did knock out Mancini and then fought Pryor. I really took the Mancini knockout personally. I was all in on Mancini's dad. You know, the Canelo thing about him fighting Floyd too early,

it was weirdly a great career move because he fought him so young. It was a loss, but it doesn't totally feel like a loss because he wasn't like the fully matured. It was almost like LeBron losing to the 2007 Spurs, right? You don't hang that on the board.

He was like 21. And with Canelo, it was like, if he had beaten Mayweather, that would have been an unbelievable upset and stunning. And he didn't, but it actually made him so much more famous. I do think that is responsible for some of the fame he has now, that fight. If he had skipped it, maybe two years later, I don't think Mayweather fights him.

Mayweather probably avoids the shit out of that fight, right? Oh, yeah. No, no question. So is that one time he could have fought him? Yeah, because, right, if he waits, then he treats him like he treated, you know, Keith Thurman,

you know, or Sean Porter, like when that next wave came up, he wants no part of those guys, let alone Spence or Crawford. And, no, you're right in that there's no better way

to get famous than fighting Floyd at that time. You know, Floyd was super famous at that point in You know, Floyd was super famous at that point in his career and that put Canelo in front of everybody. And it's, as you see now, it's hard, like, you know, well now it's, it's a, it's also a post, uh, pay-per-view era, but in the pay-per-view era to get any, to get a million buys or 2 million buys

is extremely rare. And he was able to do that and be in one of those fights. Yeah. Well, your dude who you're announcing this with, Sugar Ray, my guy, one of my guys, had him on a pod seven years ago. It was an absolute delight. One of the things I loved about him was he went early on some big ass opponents. He'd Benitez, he fought Duran during the exact time in life you never would have wanted to fight Duran. Then he went back, got him again. He took on Hearns.

And that was, he was relatively young during all that stuff. But I think there was a path where he could have just been on Wild World of Sports and gotten some belt and beaten some punching bags for a while. But he went for it right away. Canelo, I think going for Mayweather early in a weird way has made him more likable

for somebody like me because I don't know. He wasn't ready when I was there. We could tell. It would be interesting now, this version of Canelo, maybe the weight limit part of it wouldn't work the same way, but it would be interesting. Like the, the Canelo in his prime versus Floyd with all the tricks he has now, what, what that, how that fight would have gone. What do you think about that? Yeah. Um, I, you know, if you continue to age Floyd, like, you know, you know, earth is doing, then eventually you beat him anyway. Um, and, and Canelo is bigger, but if you just like, if you're doing a dream matchup, like Floyd is a tough out for anybody, you know, he's just not going to be hit. You know, I, it would take the level of the guys you just mentioned. They are a dream fight in

their prime. They can be at their best size. They could be the same size. I'd have to go to Sugar Ray Leonard or Duran Hagler to say, no, no, no, no. Floyd doesn't beat those guys, but Floyd beats most everybody else. He was so hard to hit. He was such a good boxer. Give me your top five that you've seen.

Roy Jones Jr. I think is the best I've ever seen Mike Tyson in his prime. Um, Hagler, Hagler I've seen on, on TV, not live, but enough on TV.

Um, and, uh, yeah. And, Hmm. Hmm. I'd have to think now when I get cute and get Pernell Whitaker in there,

or would I just, uh just go for Sugar Ray Leonard? It's got to be in there. Sugar Ray Leonard's a top 10 pound for pound guy. So I think that's kind of my top five. This is a better question. You have access to a time machine. You could book any fight from super lightweight all the way through middleweight in any division and grab two people,

what would your fight be? You mean any fight? Can I go heavyweights? Well, let's go, let's go non heavyweight first. Okay. Two guys to fight in their prime.

All right. I'd love to see Sugar Ray Leonard and Floyd Mayweather. Because I think Sugar Ray Leonard just boxes him left and right and beats him like 10 out of 12 rounds. But there's a part of me that's thinking, maybe I'm wrong. So I would love to see that. I have Sugar Ray in that time machine fight. I have him as a minus 250 favorite.

Because I think he would have stalked him. I think Floyd would have tried to get cute and Sugar Ray would have moved into stalking Sugar Ray mode, which was my favorite, which he does in the tail end of the Hearns fight. You know, when he knows he needs it. Yeah, he turns into like a stalker puncher Sugar Ray, which I love.

I think Hagler Floyd would have been great. I think that's the one out, but because the lead up to it, I think Hagler just would have hated everything about him and the antipathy that would have built over the six months. And then the actual fight now Floyd would have had to put on weight for it. It's the problem, but yeah,

it, it could never do one six. Like you'd have to, you'd have to, you'd have to meet it like one 56 or something, but, uh, you'd have to reconfigure it.

Cause I've more of it. Marvelous is too big for him. Yeah. But he'd kill him dead. You're right. It would be bad. If, if there was some way that fight could have happened,

the lead up would have been great. And then the actual fight of Hagrid just would not have let him kind of not fight. Like, we're doing this. We're fighting. You're not dancing around. I'm catching you and we're going to do this. That would have been good.

I think Floyd Tommy Hearns would have been classic too because Hearns Leonard was classic. And I think that mix would have been good. What about heavyweights? I still would like to see Ali Marciano. I'll go like the original 1971 dream match. Because I did a lot of study when we were both back at ESPN. I was doing classic ringside with Burt Sugar.

I love that show. Yeah. And I love those shows too. So I had access to like every bit of film on Rocky Marciano. And I, you know, I grew up probably like you thinking, oh my God, like Marciano, like he was so overrated. He became, you know, like it became this, like he couldn't have been that good. He was lucky. He just knocked guys out. He was Italian. He was popular. I get it. He's a white heavyweight, all of that.

But then watching the tape and watching one film after another, my thought was, you cannot rule out Rocky Marciano knocking out every heavyweight in history. You cannot rule that out. Because when you watch him, it's like, by the way, you're just as blown away watching old Joe Louis films. Joe Louis, I can't rule him out against Ali either. Joe Louis had short, vicious punches, got his feet in position, had an unbelievable power. But nobody had power like Marciano. His hands were just atomic. And so he would get—you can't rule out his fighting spirit was such that in every fight I watched,

you realize he will get to this guy. You don't think he's going to get I watched, you realize he will get to this guy. You don't think he's going to get to this guy, but he will get to this guy. And once he touches him, he's crumpling him. So that's what I would still like to see. Even though I think Ali is the greatest heavyweight ever. And he's, you know, you know, just liquid fast, you know, before he was banned from the sport and it was, it's tough for anybody to catch him. And he probably wins any all time matchup, but you can't be sure once you've seen every Marciano fight.

Holly fighting one of these like 260 pound dudes from the current era would have been interesting. Cause I don't think we wouldn't have touched him. They wouldn't have touched him. I don't think, I don't know who was the biggest guy he ever fought at his peak? It's just like these guys now.

Probably. And look, he ran right across the ring and traded with George Foreman. So no, forget it. Even though I think, look, Joshua is uber athletic and he fights smart and he's got tremendous power and speed and all of that. But Ali is just I mean, he's wondrous to watch.

And yeah, against George Foreman, stood there and traded. He's bigger than we think. He's 6'3", 2 1⁄4". And that was an older version of Ali. I think the younger version of Ali, forget it. Even if he was 215 pounds, how do you touch that guy? You can't touch him. The Cleveland Williams, that kind of range for Ali,

I think is my number one draft pick in this argument. I just think that was the all-time athletic, speed, power, footwork. If we ever see it again, I hope I'm alive. Yeah, no, there's not at that, at that size. It's incredible. You occasionally see it with guys who are smaller, but, um, and a guy who also threw his hands. That's the thing, like the difference between Floyd and Roy Jones is I want to see a point where you throw your hand. You're not just there to gain a victory. You're actually fighting. And Ali was not, even though he was moving and he was maddening to watch, like Sugar Ray. Sugar Ray was the closest, I think, version

of Ali that we've seen since. But there was a time where he would move his feet a lot, and that would be bothersome. I was more of a Hagler fan than a Sugar Ray fan when they were actually fighting, because I liked the guys that fought. But now, comparatively, you look at Sugar Ray Leonard, and he's thrown his hand. He's in it. And Ali was like that. His hands were moving. He was just taking you apart. Yeah, see, I wonder, in the age we live in now, if somebody was that great of an athlete, I don't think they would box. I think they would probably be playing basketball or football, would be my guess. And that's why the other thing was a fluke. Financial incentives are such, right? Before we go, can you tell me what's wrong with the Red Sox in 30 seconds?

It's weird because we were talking about it on MLB Now, and it's weird. Like, you know, I normally don't get into this. I get into the raw production of what they actually are, but the metrics actually show that they're not playing on-point baseball. Their whatever, their fighting spirit is not there yet because the metrics show their base running and their defense is slipshod. They're powerful.

That lineup is still there. But when the starting pitching is faulty and the lineup is just listless, they're not playing on-point baseball. They're not getting after it. So that's a problem. And beyond that, their third-order win percentage is 28th in the league. So I didn't think this until now, but I think they might have real problems. Yeah. When they fell to 11 and 17,

that was the first time I said to myself, wait a second. Are we really just going to suck this season? I kept waiting for them to come around. They swept Tampa. I was like, all right, here we go. And it just hasn't come. I do think this whole October baseball and how grueling it is and how we use pitchers now becomes a disadvantage next season,

especially if you win. Especially if you win and you try to keep the exact same team together, all of a sudden you have a couple of disadvantages. I was confused. The number for them was really low heading into the year, lower than I thought it was going to be for their win-loss total and stuff like that. And then Pakoda came out and I think had them in 89 wins. And I was talking to my Red Sox fans I think had them in 89 wins. And I was talking to my Red Sox fans. We were like, 89 wins. We have like a $250 million payroll.

That's crazy. 89 wins. Now I think I would take 89 wins. Can I have 89 wins right now? Can we go 89 and 73? That'd be great. But yeah, so they knew something. Something stiffed it out.

Do you think anybody's separated themselves yet? Uh, not quite. Uh, the Dodgers are unbelievably deep. Yeah. They're better. And Bellinger, Cody Bellinger is a superstar speed defense power. So they're very deep. Uh, however, yeah, the Astros are right there with them. The surprise is that the, like the Indians are clearly not the same. Red Sox, not the same. Yankees are very injured. So the other super, and even as good as the NL East is, all those teams now are pretty good. Dodgers are just deeper. For six months, you're not going to beat the Dodgers. And then in the tournament, Astros are in their prime and they get after it. They play on point baseball. They attack you. So I think they're still better than,

the Rays are feisty and all that. They're good, but the Astros can back it up for six months. So I think the Dodgers-Astros are at another tier. The Rays are ludicrous. I'm in this crazy AL Keeper League that I think I've told you about before. And they just have a bunch of dudes

that all of us have picked up for like two, three months. Like Yandy Diaz. I think he's been on every team in my league. Dollar flyer on Yandy Diaz. They're not playing him. Wave him, get somebody else. And they just have a way of finding these dudes. And then all of a sudden they're thriving. And you're like, really? That guy? Now? Why that team?, I don't know how they do it, but they do it over and over again. Maybe it's the lack of pressure playing in front of 11,000 people every night.

It's just nice. You know, it's probably a few things in it, but they stole Tommy fan. They did. You know, they stole Austin Meadows. I mean,

those are quality guys. And, uh, for like Yandy Diaz, I think it's a smart pickups where you see a guy who's scorching the ball that hasn't quite put it together. And maybe, you know,

in this day and age of, it's really the performance optimization age where some teams are very good at figuring out what you do well, what you don't do well and maximizing what you have. And I think the Razor,

obviously the Astros are one of those teams, the Astros are one of those teams. The Dodgers are one of those teams. You get better when you go there. I don't think it's an accident with the Rays either. Yeah. The Jalen Beeks thing bums me out. I hate when the Red Sox prospects go to other teams and start doing well.

Do you feel like every year people care more about their own team and less about the other teams? No, I don't feel that, but I have a skewed view because I'm watching whole at ML teams. No, I don't feel that, but I have a skewed view because I'm watching the whole league at MLB Network. So I don't feel that, but why do you think that it's getting more regional? Yeah, I definitely do. I think, especially because the games are longer,

I think I care about my own team as much as I ever have, but I care less about the other American League teams than I ever have. If that makes sense. But isn't that crazy that you can now, like, again, think of the at-bat app and think, you know, MLB Network, DAZN even now with baseball. You can watch, you know, I mean, we couldn't do this as kids, by the way. If you and I were Dodger fans, we can watch the Dodgers where we lived.

And yet you can now. So shouldn't it be going the other way? Yeah, but it is going the other way. I think that, I think all the stuff you said as part of it, you can, we have all these different ways now where I can just kind of know what's going on without having to actually watch anybody else. I'm saying I just watch my team and then like the highlight shows and the little things like you can get bits and pieces of everybody else, but I would never at this point, and maybe I'm older too,

but you know, like, Oh, raise Indians. I'm going to dive in. Like, I'm always just watching my team. And yeah,

see, I feel, I feel the opposite. I always feel I can watch some of a game, but I, I'm always flipping back to MLB network. I'm not just a plug. I do.

I want to, I want to see a couple of games at once. And I want to see that matchup or I want to see, you know, how's Patrick Corbin throwing or hey, it's the Phil. Now they've got Bryce Harper and Andrew McCutcheon. I want to see them.

Oh, DeGrom is throwing or hey, you know, Pete Alonzo is hit a home run. Now isn't it back to the Mets? Pete Alonzo. I don't know. It kind of crosses over a lot for me now.

Mets savior, Pete Alonzo. The Mets fans are just, they're so desperate. Is it most of the Mets fans? It're Mets, Islanders, and Jets. They like Mets, Islanders, Jets, Nets. That's usually like those four. And they're just beaten down.

I'll just leave it at that. Just a beaten down group of people. I grew up a Jet fan and a Kn a Nick fan and I have given up both. Oh wow. I mean, that's terrible. Zero, nothing. That's pretty rough. I mean, I mean, I don't even know what, I don't even know what they're doing. I know it's all bad, but I don't even know. And I don't care. That's how bad that's gone. They don't own me. You know, I don't owe them anything. I was there for them and now it's not worth it. You You've got to do something for me. And the Mets are not in that position. The Mets

have done enough through the years. They got to a World Series a few years ago. And they're exciting now, by the way. Have you watched any of the Mets? The Mets are exciting now. I have a lot of Mets fans in my life. So I'm well aware of what's going on with them. It is funny, though.

If you leave your team, people are horrified and think terribly of you. But if you broke up with your wife or your girlfriend, they'll be like, oh, yeah, that's too bad. It's almost like it's worse to break up with a group of random dudes wearing a jersey that you liked when you were

a kid versus an actual human being. Unless you say it about the Knicks, I've found. People go, oh yeah, no, that's not true. Yeah, the smart move. Great move. You had to leave them. Way to run. So you're calling the fight this weekend with Sugar Ray Leonard. Where do you sit?

Do you like the vantage point? Because you're close, right? Oh my god, yeah. On the ring apron. Oh yeah, once you get used to that, I mean, you just... Do you look at the monitor or the fighters? Are you both? Both, but mostly once I'm up and I've kind of

established some storyline, I'm hyper-focused on the two physical guys in front of me. Because you can see much more. You can see their eyes. You can see their eyes roll up in their head. You can see when they squint. You can see when they're upset. You can see when they're advancing and You can see when they're upset. You can see when they're advancing and they're vicious. I want to smell it. Sometimes you have to get back

to the monitor to see what the viewer is seeing. When you're on the ring apron, man, you want to look at the guys in front of you and watch the actual human beings in front of you. What's the most disgusting thing that ever hit you when you were sitting ringside? Nothing. It's not as bad as people think. Not a blood splatter? Spit? Yeah, here and there, but nothing beyond that.

Mouthpiece right in the lap? Nothing? No, you get sprayed sometimes, but a little sweat, a little blood will not kill you. It's not that. I know people have these horror stories, but I was at Bo Galata at the Garden. So I'm not worried about a spray of sweat. Jesus.

I'm worried about a five-foot cell phone hitting me. You know, that's all. It's amazing you're still alive. You know, it's funny. Last thing, and then I know I have to go. Boxing had this moment like, I don't know, five, six, seven years ago. And everybody's like, MMA has taken over.

Boxing's dying. It's dead. It's gone. It's going to be finished. And then you look at by the end of this decade, boxing is the hottest it's been in like 20 years. People fighting for rights for everything and fighters. And The Zone gets people like Canelo. And there's a bidding war and people's

promotions and HBO gets out of the fight game, which seems like it's bad for boxing, but it actually was great for boxing because all it did was put a premium on, you know, on-demand content. You have all these, these apps like the zone that, that want people to pay X amount a month and come in and watch the fights here. And now boxing is flourishing again. I would have put the odds on this at 15 to one in 2010, right? Yeah,

it is improbable. I think two things are happening. You hit on one of them where it's boxing has become very amenable to the new technology and places wanted inventory right it's like like in baseball you know the regional sports networks needed inventory to build this channel now we've gone to the next level and you need inventory and you can't just go buy sec football but you can buy boxing and the other part is and i would say in this year's and the heavyweight division is dead i said it's it's dead to you, but there's 50,000 people in a stadium in Germany watching it, you know,

watching, you know, Vladimir Klitschko. So it's not dead. It's just, it's not in Madison Square Garden. Well, now it's so international. And this is part of, you know, like matchroom boxing, Eddie Hearn, that's what DAZN is, is, is using primarily. Um, a lot of the top fighters are, you know, English, Eastern European, obviously, and there's still a mix of Americans. So as we've become much more global and it's easier to watch global things, I think that's been the other part of it, that it's exciting between Canelo and the Mexican fan base, Mexican-American fan base and fighters. And that blends now with English, German, Eastern European, and Asian.

So it's global. It's more global. It matches what's happening within the media structure at the same time. Well, you're always one of my favorite coworkers. The two things you love the most were baseball and boxing. And now that's your whole life. And I'm happy for you. I'm psyched that you get to call fights. I'm psyched you're were baseball and boxing. And now that's your whole life. And I'm happy for you. I'm psyched that you get to call fights.

I'm psyched you're doing baseball every day. You were one of the true, true diehard sports fans that I know. So congrats on everything. No, thank you, Bill. I appreciate it. It's always good to talk to you. I'll see you out there.

You got to get out. Yeah, this one I'm not getting out to because I have, it's my daughter's birthday combined with my wedding anniversary. So somehow, I don't know what I was thinking for doing first weekend in may. I really should have thought about this better and aim for like second week, August for everything. Uh,

so yeah, so that weekend's been out. I've never been in the Kentucky Derby. Um, but yeah, I will be at, what's the next one? The one,

what's the one in June? June 1st will be Anthony Joshua. They've got to get his opponent. And then June 8th is Triple G, both at the Garden in New York. Yeah, I'm going to be at one of those. Yeah, you'll see me in action. All right, thanks for coming on, Brian Kenney. All right, Bill, a pleasure.

Take care. All right, thanks to Jackie McMullin. Thanks to Brian Kenney. Thanks to DAZN. Don't forget, Canelo versus Jacobs. It's coming up. You better get in. Download the app.

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