The Bill Simmons Podcast - NBA Trade Deadline, Part 1: Orlando’s Big Day With Ryen Russillo and Kevin Clark

Episode Date: March 25, 2021

In Part 1 of the NBA trade deadline coverage on the 'BS Pod,' The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo and Orlando Magic fan Kevin Clark to discuss Orlando's rebuild; the team trading Aaron Gordon to the Nuggets, Nikola Vucevic to the Bulls, and Evan Fournier to the Celtics; how Wendell Carter Jr. will fit in with the Magic; and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Trades. I have trades. Trades to talk about. Trades to talk about in real time. We're going to be doing that next. A multi-part extravaganza with Ryan Rosillo and many others. Stay tuned. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet it all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the Chargers are going to be good. I think Seattle's going to be good. And then trying to back what you think in those first few weeks and then zag the other way. If you were wrong, you could bet on new and fun markets on FanDuel, like

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not nude culture. Nude culture would be an interesting podcast. We've got to think about that. But Mallory Rubin, Van Lathan, Charles Holmes, a whole cast of Ringer people there to react to superhero culture in the moment as these shows and movies keep popping out. Coming up, we're going to try something

that I don't think we've tried before. So we started taping this about an hour plus before the trade deadline. We're breaking this up into multi-parts, putting them up as we go along. We'll do three parts, maybe four. We'll see how it goes. This is going to be part one.

This is me, Ryan Russell, Kevin Clark, reacting to all of Orlando Magic's moves today. We're taping this in real time. It's all next, first, Pearl Jam! All right. We are taping part one of the massive trade deadline podcast. It is 1043 Pacific time. Ryan Rosillo is here. I have Rosillo trapped in some room in

Manhattan Beach. He's going to be here for the next four to nine hours doing podcasts with us. We're going to have some special guests. I can't think of a better person to have on, if only because he's one of only two people I know who like the Orlando Magic. Kevin Clark from The Ringer. He hosts The Ringer NFL show. More importantly,

he is a diehard Magic fan. By diehard, I mean, he's mostly dying. It's, it's actually like having some sort of NBA disease. Kevin, good news. Orlando has ushered in another rebuilding project. Has this happened before? You got to clear out the old rebuild, the old failed rebuild to start the new failed rebuild. I think it's a heady place. So, uh, yeah, yeah i i didn't think they had it in them i thought there was going to be a soft rebuild soft rebuilds never work now we do the hard rebuild um to trade what amounts to three best players it's a complicated legacy listen to some of the magic bloggers last night saying they

defined an era well it was two what eras yeah what an era two playoff wins over over eight years um i would say it's a it's you know listen Vooch played hard every night. He was a warrior. He didn't ask to be on a crappy team. He didn't ask to be the best player on a crappy that work? You did construction once upon a time. Can you have construction on a house that you already tore down and you were doing construction on? I don't get it. Yeah, I'll admit the permitting for that is usually a little more complicated.

You know, because you got to worry about people around you. I think Orlando has been a team. Well, I know they've been a team. The other teams have been frustrated dealing with for a long time. I was talking to a team last night and I was like, hey, you know, what do you think about Gordon?

You know, just kind of asking everybody. And they're like, we've been talking to Aaron Gordon. We've been talking to Orlando about Gordon for three years. So the Vooch trade is surprising. I think if you look at kind of what the conversations were around him, where Orlando really liked him. They're like, look, you know, the sense was, you know, they'll probably move Fournier because he's expiring. Once Gordon asked to be out,

then that put more of an emphasis on that deal. But there was a thought that, hey, get Isaac back healthy, get Fultz back healthy. They've got an all-star center in Vooch who's had really probably his career year this year, and then see where the draft pick is. And, you know, we have a really good chance in the East of being in the top eight and now top 10.

But the draft price on this is so significant that I think it changes everything. So I still think Fournier's gone today. I think Aaron Gordon's gone today because so many different teams were in on him bidding on it. We'll get to that part of it. But to trade two top four protected picks at 21 and then 23,

and then Wendell Carter, who turns 22 next month, who you still hold out hope for, which I know is a pretty dangerous game and usually a disappointing game in trading for former lottery picks. So I think the other pieces are going to happen, but the Vooch part of this is surprising, but that's a pretty significant price, even though I still like it for Chicago. Kevin, I thought you got 110 cents on the dollar for Vooch. I thought you got 45 cents on the dollar for Gordon. Here are Thought you got 45 cents on the dollar for Gordon. Here are the trades for the people who are trapped under a rock

and don't have Twitter or the internet. Vucevic and Aminu to Chicago for Carter. Otto Porter's expiring in two firsts. And those were, as Rosillo said, two top four protected this year in 2023. Then they trade Gordon for Gary Harris, who expires next year. RJ Hampton, who's I think only 19 and a 2025 first, not great. Then they trade Fournier for two seconds, which

they get a $17 million trade exception out. But with the Vucevic thing, I really liked Wendell Carter. It felt like a classic high pedigree guy on the wrong team. I'd like to see him just in a rebuilding situation, getting some reps, stuff like that. Kevin, you better sit down. You're already sitting down. Good. I'm sitting down. I just want to point out you could have drafted him.

You took Mo Bamba one spot ahead of him. And now you have both. So, there's a lot to unpack with regards to this. When you talk about the $0.110 on the dollar versus $0.45 on the dollar with Gordon, that's the difference between not wanting to give up a guy and a guy who demanded a trade.

That's just kind of simple economics. I would say that, first of all, getting a big return in totality is a big deal here. These are, at the end of the day, the three best healthy offensive players on a team that have not, since the Dwight trade, been in the top 20 in offensive rating. It's usually around 22 to 25 to 27 in offensive rating in the NBA. That's not very good. So I think that the idea that we just got assets today is really important. I'm talking about picks. And I don't even necessarily...

Good picks. Good picks. But I mean, the Gordon's a 2025. It's a little bit... But the two Chicago picks were... Oh, no. The two Chicago picks were great. Those are real picks.

Yeah, but that's why they did the trade. It's because they were blown away by it. As Rizzo said, they didn't want to necessarily part with Vooch. It was that they were blown away by it. So I agree with you. I really like that trade. It's the perfect thing to start a rebuild. From our perspective, I was looking at it,

and listen, I've done a million podcasts with you where we've talked about this. I've done other NBA podcasts. Bad luck in the lottery is the reason we're in this position, right? Aaron Gordon was taken one pick after Embiid, right? The year we did get some lottery luck, we were number two overall.

It was the Anthony Bennett draft. We got Oladipo. The fifth pick was... Hozonia, yeah. ...to Mario Hozonia. Exactly. Mo Bamba was one spot behind Trey Young. We were always in the outside

looking in at these situations. And there are a couple, as you said, a couple of spots where we could have just gotten a Wendell Carter or whatever instead of a Bamba. But I think that the true superstars were always a little bit out of reach. We go back to that. Well, we try again, do another four years

of lottery basketball and see what happens. We're solo. As you know, I'm a big basketball reference. Look at the totality of the career guy and look for like up and down trends. I think you can make a case. They sold about as high as you can possibly sell on VOOT because 30 years old, he's in his 10th season. The previous five seasons, he's basically between 20 points and 15 points a game. And he had his peak year this year. He was basically 25 and 12. He's shooting threes over 40%

for the first time in his career and was just kind of peaking this year. And they cashed in the best possible way they could. I really like those picks. They're getting Chicago's first-round pick. If you look at the standings, it's more likely Chicago is the 12th seed

than the 5th seed. Do you think they sold at the perfect time for Vucic or would you have held on to him? No, I really think this is about as well as you're going to do. Again, I liked Wendell Carter at Duke. I thought he did really smart things. The Horford comps weren't terrible. I didn't like him as much

as Horford coming out, but there were these things I always call those in-between things that you do on a basketball court that are really smart, but he's always been an apprehensive offensive player where you're like, I'd just like to see a little bit more aggressiveness out of you. So if you're banking on him all of a sudden becoming more aggressive, you know, we probably play that game too often. We're like, Hey, this guy that hasn't been aggressive for three years,

even going back to college now, he's going to be really aggressive. Um, that usually doesn't necessarily work out, but it's still, um, somebody, you know, you know, how lottery picks work. I mean, hell, you know, this down in Orlando, the fact that you get a lottery pick for Darko because he would already been taken number two. You know, if you look at history of like, hey, well, they took him high, so maybe we can still give you something for this player. Where on the other side of it, I think they got Fultz at a decent rate. So the Carter part of it is still something to hold on to, although I don't know what the endgame of that is going to be, although he shot it better this year for him. But to get two top four protected, and when you look around at, at how, how picks are moved and they're moved more now than ever before.

But a lot of these still have massive protections on them. So, you know, Vooch was finishing 30% of Orlando's offensive possessions this year for a career high. And yet it was arguably his best season. And, you know,

statistically, if you look at some of the metrics, it's either this season or a couple of seasons ago, but the three point shooting, the rebounding when, you know, statistically, if you look at some of the metrics, it's either this season or a couple of seasons ago. But the three point shooting, the rebounding when I mean, the only time Vooch has ever played with an all star is Iguodala in his rookie season. So just him with Zach Levine, even if you don't love Levine, but I think you have to come around. I've had to come around on him a little bit. I mean, his shot making alone, he's far more efficient. Decision making is always going to be a little questionable, but it's far better than it used to be when he was younger. The pick-and-pop combination for them, I love. And I'd add this last bit of it, too. For Chicago fans that are maybe a little scared about the picks, because in 2023, I mean, you don't know. Yeah, this could come back to haunt you.

Absolutely, right? And that's what a lot of these GMs are doing right now. Just, I don't care. Pick, pick, picks. Give me a million picks. I looked at it the other day. Oklahoma City now, including this, has 34 picks over the next seven years. All right. Um, I give credit to Chicago for saying, Hey, you want to go, you want to just

be better. Do you want to add an all-star? We can play this game that Beal's going to come there, not happening. You can wait for the next superstar, but unless you have other players in position that are better than Levine and Kobe white and Patrick Williams, then the other star isn't going to want to come there. So I give credit to Chicago for saying it just makes us better. He's on the right side of 30. He's an all-star this year. And yeah, it was a hefty price, but guess what? We're a more serious playoff contender today than we were yesterday. And I don't know that there's enough teams that ever do that. So now it's 10 52 PM. We don't know if they're going to trade marketing.

I like Chicago this whole year. I thought they were frisky. And I was just thinking in the context of the Celtics, where I would watch the Celtics and I would watch the Bulls and I would be like, not sure there's really a difference between these two teams from a talent standpoint. They're top six now.

Vucevic, Thad Young, Zach Levine, Patrick Williams, the 19-year-old perimeter stud who we've seen guard every type of forward already this year, and I think he's really good. Kobe White, Markkanen, and then they have the Valentine Temple, Saturansky, to fill out the nine-man rotation. They're 19-24 in the East right now. They're two and a half games out of the fifth spot.

But the thing that really strikes me is I think it's going to be a really fun team to watch. They're going to be able to run a lot of stuff through Levine and Vucevic. Kevin, who is the best offensive player Vucevic played with in Orlando? Was it Fournier? Probably was, right?

Yeah, some combination of that. I think he played with JJ Redick early on. I mean, think how grim that is. No, they had, I think he played with J.J. Redick early on. I mean, think how grim that is. Yeah. No, he definitely played with J.J. Redick early on. Tobias Harris would be involved in that. LaVoy Allen in Philadelphia. Victor Oladipo,

depending on how you view the Victor Oladipo era. Yeah, that was pretty early Oladipo. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I disliked Vooch for large portions of his tenure early on, because he plays a style of basketball that you basically have to tailor the half court offense towards him, right. And I kind of feel like kind of like we're talking about with Levine or whatever. He's the perfect guy to fit into a system and play with with with another star and just see how he adapts. You know, I was looking at this this roster last night and I was just thinking about the fact that this is the perfect roster to play with a superstar. The magic one. The superstar just never came.

Some of that comes to the lottery luck and all that stuff. But I really like Vooch's skill set. The fact that Kevin Durant loves Vooch has become part of magic fan lore. How sad is that? No, really, truly. People talk about that tweet all the time. He's so fun to watch.

I just feel like this was a kind of an island of misfit toys of guys who can play great roles. I, I, so when I talked about this last night, Aaron Gordon should be the best fourth option in the league. Like that's his destiny. He should not be a centerpiece of a franchise. Fooch is the same way. If he's the best player in your team,

you're doing something wrong, but he can be the best third option in the league. Something like that. These guys have really good, with the exception of Fournier, who can take relief. Both Gordon and Vooch

have better days ahead of them, and I think they fit well in the teams they're going to. You're going to love this, Ursula. This extends the impact of a guy named Dwight Howard on the Orlando Magic franchise.

Because they do that August 10, 2012. They do that massive four-player trade. It's Denver, Orlando, Philly, and the Lakers. And remember, the Lakers send Bynum to Philly. They're getting Dwight Howard. Everybody freaks out. Denver, I think, got a flalo. Or maybe Orlando. Orlando ended up with a flalo.

Orlando ended up with a flalo. They got Iguodala. And Vucevic. Yeah, Denver got Iguodala. And then we flipped a flalo for Fournier a couple years later, and then a flalo came back. A flalo got Kyle Van Noy. He just got traded and then came back. I had Vuce on the pod. Let me just throw this in there. I had Vuce on the

pod, and I've joked about this. When they had a flallow, I thought Orlando Sneaky won the trade. If you were to handicap who came in last in this trade at the time, when it's Bynum, when it's Howard, when it's Iguodala, you're like, all right, well, Orlando got screwed because their guy wanted out of there. They've probably won that trade twice over. I remember doing a mailbag maybe two years after.

Who was the GM that we always made fun of that Orlando had at that point point otis john rob hennigan rob hennigan wise but we've had a lot of bad jams wise broad was the hockey guy who traded t-mac hennigan was the guy was hennigan by the way we ended the hennigan era today we're burying the football it's over but i felt like they two years into that trade you're like wow they they won that Dwight Howard trade. The, the odds of that were like 15 to one when it happened. And now you think they get all that Vucevic and he really turns into an asset for them. They get one, two, three, they get eight years of Vucevic and then spin him into Wendell Carter, who might be on the team for 10 years.

And these two first round picks. And I'm with Rosillo. This pick this year is not as dangerous because I think Chicago is going to be good. They're not going to be a top five worst team. 2023 gets a little dangerous. You just never know. That's the rub, but they really wanted them. I don't think there's another path for them to get a massive free agent. So this is how you do it. And then I think if I'm Chicago, the only thing I'm scared about is that I sell too low on Wendell Carter, who was injured the first two years. It never felt like he was the right fit on that team.

And, you know, he never had the point guard to kind of take care of them. There is some stuff to like though. I mean, the guy does put up stats, he rebounds. It's not like he's out there just kind of running around like a chicken with his head cut off. I don't mind him. I'm a fan. So now you could have him in Bamba. Twin Towers, Kev? I love it. I love it.

This will, and I'll say this, whether that's Kevin O'Connor or other people, this ends the Bamba excuse train. Like, either he can play or he can't play. I didn't know there was a Bamba excuse train. Who's the conductor? It might be. It might be our good friend, Kevin O'Connor. Because every time I try to give up, I mean, listen, the last couple of weeks, every time I try to give up on him,

O'Connor just defends him. And I think he can be a player somewhere. Again, we've gone over this before. If everything has to be perfect, if everything has to be perfect for you to shine, maybe you're not worth the fifth pick in the draft.

I was hoping you were going to get Bol Bol to do a Bamba Bol Bol kind of Twin Towers thingy that just people would have liked on paper unless you actually watched it. It would have been fun. By the way, they offered Bol Bol and thenlando pushed back on it and ended up they were like it's rj on the gordon deal what's i want to i want to talk about the gordon deal we're going to take a quick break

we're going to come back and talk about the aaron gordon deal which is a completely different deal than the vucevic deal this episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl,

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Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. All right, it is now almost 11 o'clock. Trade deadline will expire in about an hour. I haven't seen Ursula this intense in a long time, maybe since we did the town rewatchables, there's just a lot going on.

A lot of trades coming up. Uh, Aaron Gordon, it, it felt this, I mean, there was, I think this has been some of the worst misinformation we've had in the

week leading to the trade deadline. There was a rumor, the salts were going to give up Marcus smart and picks for Aaron Gordon. Like, it's like, what's going on? These trades are never happening in any universe, but they end up getting basically R.J. Hampton.

They roll the dice with Harris for a year and a 2025 protected first. Russillo, 45 cents on the dollar? 40 cents? 60 cents? Where do you land on this? Aaron Gordon became the most overrated player in the league in like 48 hours. Okay.

Um, I know that there's a version of him that exists that we all think is going to be like awesome playing the four, running around with smaller lineups. And actually Denver is probably one of the three best teams for him, considering you get to just cut off of all these yokage possessions so it could there could be nights where it really really works out but you know for the celtics part of it even though i'm not in love with smart and we saw two enormous missed threes again this week uh i don't know what the celtics were going to do if they move smart considering the kemba situation and then it's like i said we're gonna have peyton pritchard

start for you and you're trying to make this playoff seeding run? I mean, even a playoff run at this point. So, even if you're not in love with Smart, you have to understand that some of the toughness that he brings,

although at times frustrating, I never really quite understood, even though I think the Celtics would trade Smart, why the Gordon deal was going to make that much sense considering Gordon isn't exactly a guy that solves all your problems. Well, and can't shoot threes. I mean, I know he's 37% this year, but career he's 32%.

And I don't feel like people want to guard him. They don't care about guarding him in the last five minutes of an important game. I don't think. Kevin, you can take this one over because the numbers are pretty staggering how different they are on catch and shoot versus him creating his own offense. Like I think the catch and shoot versus him creating his own offense. Like, I think the catch and shoot numbers are really good. I hope it doesn't get in the way of some of the Michael Porter Jr. possessions where he's in the corner, but then, you know, gets pass up fake slashes and that kind of stuff. Or maybe they just throw all three of those guys out there at the same time. You know, Malone can experiment with a little bit, but I think if you really

are locked into Gordon, like Kevin is, or people that watch the magic all the time, I just felt like this week, I'm like, does other fan base do the other fan bases that are clamoring for Gordon truly know what they're getting and the answer is probably no and if he's left to his own devices to create pick and roll ball handling getting a shot it's actually not that great and I think with Denver and Joker it's going to be limited how much he has to do any of that stuff anyway yeah I think Gordon has suffered from being on a team that desperately needed a superstar because he tried to be that and he tried to create his own offense, as you said, didn't necessarily

work. He was best when he was just cutting to the basket. He was best doing the spot up threes. And I think that he's developed a three-point shot really admirably over the past couple of years. There was a year, I think it was three years ago, where he basically for the first half of the season was one of the best shooting forwards in basketball.

The numbers were insane. He regressed a lot in the second half. But I think that there's a lot there. I think, again, in the right system, this all works where he's not asked to do too much. Gordon is one of the players, and I've seen this a handful of times over the past eight years, where the fact that we had a hole there and the fact that there could be a guy who wanted to play hero ball worked his detriment. I think playing for a contender like this, it works out. He can just, as you said, take advantage of those possessions.

I'm in on this fit for Denver. You know, you just think of it this way. I don't think they gave up a lot. And basically, you're substituting him for the Paul Millsap minutes, right? Or most of them, especially at the end of the game. And is Aaron Gordon better than Paul Millsap at this stage of his career?

Yeah. Um, will he be a better three point shooter if all he's doing is doing catch and shoot stuff? Sure. Will it be really fun for him to be on a true contender? Yeah. Um,

is that somebody that would be fun with Jokic? Especially with all the shit Jokic can create for other guys and somebody who just can kind of be this sneaky, a little like how Philly uses Ben Simmons, where he's kind of just sneaking around and he's on the baseline and doing it. And Jokic, I think, could make him a better player. I thought this was a steal for Denver.

Whether Gordon is a great player or not, the price wasn't that bad. He's this was a steal for Denver. Whether Gordon is a great player or not, the price wasn't that bad. He's only under contract until next year. I think he's flippable. If it doesn't work out this year, you can flip him this summer and try to get a different asset. He's got a very tradable contract. To me, it's like, if I'm

Denver, why wouldn't you do this? Why don't you get out of Gary Harris' contract? He's been a stiff for two years. No, you nailed it on that. The fact that you get out of Gary Harris's contract. That's the big one. He spent a stiff for two years. No, you nailed it on that. I mean, the fact that you're off of Gary Harris's $20 million and you're adding somebody who's playing. I mean, Gary Harris, when he plays,

because if you look at four of the last five seasons, 57 games, 57 games, 56 games, 19 games this year, the most he's played in a season was 67 games in 17 and 18, where he actually averaged about 17 a game. But his last three years is between 32 and 34% from three. The Gary Harris thing was just, you know, he's, it's funny how when you look at younger players and they get a bunch of opportunities,

they get the minutes, they get the right minutes. People are trying to set them up offensively and you'll see almost a weird spike. Like, do you remember Kevin Knox? I don't know if everybody remembers him. He's still on the Knicks, but he averaged like 13 a game his rookie year. And you just start going, man, in a couple of years, he'll get like 17. It's like, no, actually that team was terrible and they wanted to see what

they had. So he put up some numbers. So look, Gary Harris, it's not the same as Kevin Knox. Denver certainly been better than the Knicks have been. So I'm not saying it's the same comp, but he wasn't really giving you that much. And you didn't really know how much you could even rely on him. And to get off the $20 dollar number on top of that makes this trade feel like wait orlando like could they have done better you know i don't i don't know i mean i know what some of the other offers are out there portland didn't really seem like a great match the boston part we've been over um and nobody else is houston's desperate to get off the Oladipo thing. I don't know if it's going to happen here as we count down the time here. So there was even a rumor that Oladipo was done to Orlando.

And then I talked to somebody who was like, yeah, that's not even close to being true. And that was in the beginning of the week. So you always have to wonder what the market was for somebody like this. And I think the NBA maybe had a better sense of what the market or who Gordon was as a player than maybe those on the outside,, you know, all the fan bases that were desperate to get him. I agree. I would say from the magic perspective, part of this was shaded by the fact that Gordon had been so hyped up the past three years that the trade offers that were rumored about him ended up being significantly unrealistic, right? Like Jonathan Sharks, I just

looked this up because I wanted to make sure it was real. In 2019, wrote a column called CJ McCollum for Aaron Gordon, who says no. Right. So that's what we were dealing with two years ago. And now we're dealing with taking Gary Harris at $20 million and a 2025 pick. Portland likely said no to that two years ago. Oh, yeah. I'm just saying the content was out there. It was out there. Well, the thing with the thing with Aaron Gordon that I always thought added to his trade value and made a piece like that realistic is he's still really young. He's 25 years old. I would have guessed he was like 28,

29, but he can't, he must've come in the league when he was 15 years old. He's seven years into the league and he's still only 25. And I think he's one of those guys that's like in fantasy football when you have a fantasy draft and you just fall in love with some receiver that hasn't really done it yet, but you think he's going to do it. And all of a sudden the guy's going for $32 in your fantasy draft.

And meanwhile he had like, you know, 28 catches the year before. Gordon was like the version of that in the NBA where it was like people were projecting what they thought he was going to be as like this fixed value for him. And you look at his stats, he's been in the league. This is year seven, his career stats, 13 points a game, 6.4 rebounds, 44% shooter, 32% from three playing a lot of minutes, you know? And it's like, I, I'm pretty sure I can get a 14 and seven from most of the guys at that position this league, except for semi-auxiliary. So the question for me is, can Jokic make him better? Can being on a contender make him better? Is there another level for him to go to? And I actually would argue that there is, but I can also understand why teams are hesitant to give up the farm for him. Well, Denver, look, Denver's,

we've already been over it, but I mean, him going to Denver is perfect for him. So I don't know if that he morphs into a completely different player, but the opportunity is going to be, like what Jokic does at the end of games is, I mean, we all know how special he is

and he's mentioned as an MVP favorite and all this stuff, but there are nights where I watch him where I still go, just appreciate how stupid this is. Because it seems like he could work you in the post whenever he wants, but he doesn't. It seems like he could shoot more threes, but he doesn't. It seems like, and you realize like some of the great players are the guys that are kind of calculating all of it in their head of, is this

the best? Like, Hey, I could probably make this happen, but can I wait for something else? Can I drag out the position a couple more seconds to maybe get us an even better look? And he has mastered that. So all Gordon has to do is stay alive in the play. It's a lot like playing with Steph. Just stay alive, stay alive, keep moving, keep moving. And if Gordon, who you would think would be so engaged after seven years in Orlando,

this is a home run for him. I think it's probably one of the best landing spots that was realistic for him. So I may not love him. I'm tempering it a bit here, but you're right. This is a perfect basketball situation because Joker's one of the five guys that just makes your life easier playing in the league. Yeah, if he's good, there's no more excuses.

He should be really good on this team. This team needs somebody like him. We always talked about how Curry and Tyreek Hill are a little similar. With Curry, even when he doesn't have the ball, the space he creates and the panic that the defense has just when he's moving around. And I think Jokic is a little bit like that when he has the ball. He's out of anyone we have late, all five guys are so locked into, oh, shit. Watch. Back cut. And he just has everybody kind of in the palm of his hand. I think it would be fun to watch Gordon play with a guy like that.

All right, Kev. And Harden, by the way. We've got to throw Harden in there. Top of the key. Everybody freaked out. Yeah, you're right. I always begrudgingly want to give Harden compliments. I try to find times to be fair about it because it's

what he's doing right now is incredible. I've had some NBA players compare Harden to Lamar Jackson. NFL players, excuse me. Lamar Jackson. In the same way that just like guys are always on tilt when he has the ball and then beyond that, it's the deceleration. That's the thing. It's

the acceleration and the deceleration. That's Hard thing. It's the acceleration and the deceleration. That's Harden and Lamar Jackson. That's what I've heard from people. Has anyone ever done a column on quarterbacks as NBA players? They have. Oh, sorry. Kev, I ask this question unironically. Your top three Vucevic moments as a Magic fan.

Count it down from one to three. We beat the Lakers on a Vucevic mid-range shot about four years ago, and David Steele yelled pure magic at the buzzer. That was a big one. I would say that... Let me think here. The Durant tweet isn't two? two the durant tweet might be two uh both i

would say both both those playoff games um that we won the two over the past eight years um were real special moments for us um i wasn't at either of those games dj augustine obviously won the the game in toronto but um i would I would say that that would be it. Vooch was our primary late game scorer, and so he had a handful of clutch shots. But I would say beating the Lakers in the regular season game was extremely important to me, as was the Durant tweet. How about skills challenge? He lost to Sabonis in the finals,

but still, top 12 moment for Vooch. Yeah, I would say. I um, I once went to the Starbucks on Summerlin, um, and with my aunt and, uh, it was around Christmas time and I saw him. So that might be number four. Um, it was good. He looked like a, like a nice guy. Can you give us the top three Aaron Gordon magic moments that did not involve the contest? Oh my God.

Can't use the same for the answer. Oh God dunk contest? Oh my God. Can't use the slam dunk contest for the answer. Oh God. Um, oh my God. This is, this is a little harder. Um, I, I, it really is. I mean, like the, the, the people's champ mantle uh, was I think extremely important. Uh, I would say Terrence Ross's tweet

an hour ago, uh, in which he said, I'm the captain now and had the captain, uh, Phillip Skiff, I think is the top three. That's horrifying. Wow. Yeah, yeah. I would say, you know what it was? I would say all of them happened the year that he for like November and December was shooting

like 45% from three. There was a run there where I was like, Aaron Gordon is actually with this is happening. Yeah. How high in the trade value rankings is it? This is absolutely happening. The bills came due on that, but I would say that was a magical moment for everybody. I would say in general, this whole thing,

and Bill, I know you have this, and Ryan, certainly you've had this. Do you ever watch a show for like 10 years? And I'm not even sure if you like it, but then at the end, you're like, I'm really going to miss those guys. Like Entourage was that for me, right? Where I kind of limped to the finish.

I'm sitting there and I'm saying, I just, you know, i'm not even sure if i enjoyed the last three years of this but at the end i'm like you know i just it was more good than bad is what i would say from an emotional standpoint that was like highly questionable for rassilo um i still dvr rassilo your top ev Evan Fournier moment that you can remember just from afar. Well, this week, he let his kid, if anybody understands cupping therapy, where they put these suction cups on your back to try to help with inflammation. And then it makes you look like a badass. That's why I think guys do it. I'm not even sure if it works. And you have all these bruises all over your back.

And you go to the beach with that. It's like, hey, look out. That guy does cupping therapy. And Fournier let his kid do it to his forehead so this whole week he's had a huge huge cupping bruise on his forehead which i thought was going to hurt his trade value but you know they got a couple seconds out of it yeah he was great i mean he had the game winner essentially um look getting fournier to add to your group, if you're Boston, that has a serious depth issue, it's a terrific trade. But it's also a reminder of something you and I have been talking about the entire time.

It's like, yeah, I know that trade exception sounds awesome at $28.5 million, but you need to, again, temper your expectations. It's not used 75% of the time. The Celtics actually used a chunk of it. And by the way, if Fournier, because they have his bird rights, goes somewhere else, they can find a way to add another trade exception to it. So, hooray. We're going to talk about Boston in part two, but I will say this.

Evan Fournier, who I think is a solid perimeter player. Rick, have solid score? Yeah, he's probably not the 19-point guy that he is with the Magic on a team that functions. That actually has players. Yeah, but he's a decent scorer.

Sure. The upgrade from the Javante Green, Semi Ojale, Grant Williams, all the dudes that Aaron Neesmith, all the dudes that are in the corner who the defense doesn't respect, doesn't think is going to do anything to having Fournier, a guy that take out Brown or Tatum, you're bringing

in somebody who can actually play basketball. It's weird, but I almost don't know if the Celtics need to do anything else. I thought that was the biggest hole on the team. Just the drop-off of taking Brown or Tatum, it was like taking out a starting quarterback and putting in Ryan Lindley. That's how bad it was. And it would cost them five to eight points a game, how bad those bench guys were. So I think just having a competent guy,

he's French, we'll have to work on that. The Celtics have had a rough history with French players dating back to not drafting Tony Parker. Uh, what was that guy? Jerome? We,

so remember? Yeah, but he was, he was from cards. Yeah. I mean, he improved their athleticism immediately was the Patino quote. He's very athletic.

Yeah. Isn't we so from like a French, a French island though. I remember we went to one game. My dad and I watched him for three minutes and we were out. He was one of those. It was like, nope. Oh no.

He was born in France. He was born in France. Yeah. Um, all right, Kev. So the good news for you, there's five awesome guys in this draft, right? So this is a five and then a drop off draft. That's what it is right now.

Um, that's, that's, it's pretty clear. I mean, I, I have a thing coming up on one of the pods where I was asking teams for their top five. And so far, every single

team that's got back to me, it's the same five guys in different order, but there's no one that's leap, you know, jumped in from that outside of that group. The Orlando tank

a thon. They're 15 and 29. Minnesota is 10 and 34. Houston and Detroit are both 12 and 31. Your team the rest of the way, you got Carter and Bamba, MCW, Otto Porter, you're probably buying out, Gary Harris, Okeke,

who I kind of like. I think that was actually a decent pick. Ken Burch, who you're probably trading in the next half hour, Terrence Ross Ditto, Bacon, and RJ Hampton, who's like 18 years old. I think probably trading in the next half hour, Terrence Ross Ditto, Bacon, and RJ Hampton, who's like 18 years old. I think you will have a top three pick unless

you have some of the worst lottery luck ever. The magic way would be to lock in a top three worst record but end up with the sixth pick in a five-point draft. That's your history. Maybe you break it this time. Maybe. I'm hoping so. By the way, I do want to say that I looked up the numbers. It was October 2017

for the month Aaron Gordon shot 59% for three over five games. That didn't last. What a stretch that was. What was your favorite Aaron Gordon hair do? Did you settle on a favorite? I liked the cornrows. I liked the cornrows. I thought that looked good.

I have a ton of respect for guys that are already back on the cornrow. Yeah. It's cyclical. I think that I'm going to agree more with you. I'm expecting a sixth pick in Jalen Johnson at this point. That's just how I go into lotteries at this point. But I would love... At this point, we just have so many holes.

Just start building. I'm not going to be discriminating on what what talent we get in the offseason. Rusillo, do you want to guess career playoff games Nikola Vucevic played for the Orlando Magic

without looking it up? 16? Kev, tell them the answer. It's 10, if I'm not mistaken. I think it's Yeah, it's 10. Yeah, we them the answer. It's 10, if I'm not mistaken. I think it's... Yeah, it's 10. Yeah. We won one game

against each of the Bucs and Toronto. And then we got swept out. Yeah. It was extremely pleasant. 10 games in eight years. There you go. All right, Kev, we can hear you on the Ringer NFL show.

This is the end of part one of the Massive Trade Deadline podcast. It is now 1118. We're going to mail these files to Kyle and come back in about three minutes. Stay tuned for part two. It will be on the Bill Simmons feed. We're going to do a lot of parts today.

We'll be back.