The Bill Simmons Podcast - NBA Trade Deadline, Part 4: Winners & Losers With Ryen Russillo and Jackie MacMullan

Episode Date: March 25, 2021

In Part 4 of NBA trade deadline coverage on 'The BS Pod,' The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo and Jackie MacMullan to discuss why the Raptors did not trade Kyle Lowry after all the trade buzz leading up to the deadline. They also revisit the Celtics' additions, the Heat's great day (adding Victor Oladipo and LaMarcus Aldridge), the Clippers trading for Rajon Rondo, Andre Drummond speculation, and more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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for additional details. You must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem called Win 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com. All right, the Trade Deadline Podcast part four. We've done three parts already. It is now 1254 Pacific time, 354 East Coast time. Ryan Russillo is still here. We might go all day. We might do 24 hours. Jackie McMullen is joining us, the Hall of Famer. Kyle Lowry was not traded. Jackie, What happened? What happened? Well, it's funny. I was talking to someone in the Raptors organization

a few days ago, and there was sort of this sense, if you look back on that great championship season, the next year, Kawhi Leonard walks for nothing. Danny Green goes for nothing. Right?

Then Gasol and Serge Ibaka leave for nothing. And I think it just, maybe it's just like, okay, we're all right with Kyle staying here. He's okay. More importantly, like if Kyle was like, get me out of here, man, this is a sinking ship. I think the results would have been different perhaps. And I think he was like, I'm okay with being here. You know, his bird rights don't kick in till the, you can't extend him till the summer. So if you trade for him, you're interested in his bird rights, much harder now to sign Kyle Lowry as a free agent because he no longer has his bird rights.

So for people that most people on, I don't need to explain this on your podcast, right? Everyone knows what that means for the most part. No, it's helpful though. Yeah. Okay. So what it means is that, um, if you had him, if you traded him at the deadline and you wanted to extend him, you had his bird rights, you could go over the cap. You didn't have to worry about it. Now, if you sign him, you'd have to be able to fit them. And it's, it's, it's more difficult for teams. So I think in the end, they probably just were like, how much of this can we ask our fans to understand? He's so good with the younger guys. And, you know, let's face it, Siakam and Nick Nurse,

they got a little thing going on right now. There's a little back and forth. Kyle Lowry, I think, is a great buffer for that. You know, maybe he rides you through that rough time because Siakam's a part of the future. Rosillo's favorite NBA feud right now is Siakam versus Nick Nurse. He's on all the blogs, all the, all the few blogs, just monitoring. Well, who do you like? Who do you like, Ryan? Which guy? Siakam was totally out of line.

So anybody that, anybody that knows what happened, and I'm not going to say what happened because I'm just not a reporter, but he was totally out of line with what he did. And the player always wins, even when it's somebody as special as Nick Nurse. I mean, every single time. I mean, we had Vucevic on and I was asking about defenses and he just brings up Toronto. You know, I mean, it just happens all the time. Like what they do.

Remember with JJ Redick and like, hey, what are you like? Who stands out? He goes, oh, man. He goes the way they chase and contest and keep chasing. He goes, dude, Nick Nurse. So everybody raves about this guy. So I don't know if it was just a slip-up with Siakam or if it's something that's bigger,

but it was a bad slip-up and maybe it's not that big of a deal. Maybe down the road, it's not that big of a deal. But Lowry loving being in Toronto, I think, Jackie, you're right about it. I mean, I don't know that it's a... I mean, it feels like a complete rebuild, but I think the bigger issue is... I was reading stuff in Toronto this morning, right?

And it's, I think Toronto gets really sensitive about anything that's, I mean, honestly, they get sensitive about shit that it doesn't even make any sense to me. You know, like when you'll be like, yeah, you know, if those guys hadn't got hurt and it's like, what are you talking about? Like, well, Kevin Durant and Klay Thompson got hurt. That's not a crazy thought to think that that helped you win a title. Or whenever you talk about anybody being potentially traded, it's like, no, that's not really happening. So the Lowry one was funny because I was reading a piece this morning in Toronto that said that only in the last two days has Toronto decided that maybe they would trade Lowry. Like, that's not just, that's just not how the job works. Like those guys are having these conversations all season long. So I really think it comes down to the 30 million. And once George Hill ended up on the Sixers and Daryl didn't want to move a

bunch of pieces in it for a rental with Lowry, that he just became a harder guy to trade, but it doesn't change necessarily the philosophy of what the Raptors are trying to do. Right. But don't you think that Daryl Morey grabbed George Hill because he thought the Kyle Lowry thing was going nowhere. I think that happened first.

Yeah. Well, we talked about this on a part 17 of this podcast. It just makes way more sense to get George Hill for nothing than it does to trade Danny Green and Maxie and a first-round pick and whatever else you had to throw in for Lowry

where I think Hill is additive and I like the team that they have. I think they have a chance to win the East. If Embiid is healthy. I just love they have. I think they have a chance to win the East. You know, if Embiid is healthy. I just love Lowry. I do too. You know, at that finals that you're referring to, Ryan, with the Warriors, that you just, and the year before,

like I remember being there, I was doing, you know, it was when I was doing my mental health series. I was in Toronto. So I was interviewing DeMar DeRozan, who was being pretty open at that time. So I was talking to Kyle Irie and I'm like, hey, you must have had everybody has some mental health challenges along the way, right? So you're no different. He's like, yes, I am. And he is different. You know,

he went nuts on me, like, how dare you suggest? And I wasn't suggesting anything, you know, but he is he's different. I just think there's a group of guys that are different. And he's not only different because of what he does in the locker room and what he brings in this never say die, which sounds so trite, but it's real with him. And the grittiness is real. And by the way, the talent is real.

Now, I looked him up because I've always thought of him as a guy that just drives you crazy on defense. You're just hoping someone else will guard you. I looked at his numbers this season. They're not good, but their team's not good. They have no big men. You know, that was a huge blow to lose both of their bigs. So I think defensive numbers are always tricky to put your hat on them because so many other variables matter. So I'm going to disagree with you. I, I think you put Kyle Lowry on the Sixers and, and I, and yes, you might

sacrifice a great young player, but what the heck? When's the last time the Sixers won a championship, Bill? You know the answer. So you're saying if it was Maxie, Danny Green. So now I'm also missing a wing now. Um, well, are you sure that's what it had to be? That's what I don't know. It had to be just from a salary standpoint. I think, I think Danny green had to be in it. Cause we were talking earlier. The problem with Lowry is the 30 million get within 26 of it or whatever it is. And it's just, these contenders had so much trouble doing it. I mean, and I know he's 35 or six or whatever he is.

I just, I just know what that guy does in a locker room, what he does on a team, what he does for a coach. You know, Nick Nurse and Kyle Lowry were never going at it like that. If they were, it was all positive energy, right? So I'm just a huge Kyle Lowry fan. We are too. And I think he makes you,

he doesn't just help you win a lot. He could be the difference in winning a championship. I believe that. Russillo, the honeymoon period for Daryl Murray. If they lose to Brooklyn, followed by a summer of, why didn't we get James Harden? Why didn't we get Kyle Lowry? That's now in play.

Yeah, we both know. I think Jackie knows maybe better than both of us. The Harden part is never going to be on Daryl I don't think that I think it was beyond Daryl's control you can't tell irrational fans that though no why did we get hardened I get everything you're saying about Lowry there I get it but I guess I'm not convinced and you know what here's the thing I don't know the answer Is Lowry the difference to get you past the Nets? Because as great as the Nets thing is, I got to know. All right.

Say everybody's healthy. Okay, fine. For me to suggest which Kyrie am I getting is not an unfair question, as we're now on the second time that he's decided that I'm going to step away from the team. And my theory of regular season basketball kind of hitting some real weird roadblocks in the playoffs now because we have these systems and the shooting and all the stuff that we've seen hasn't worked all the time unless you're also playing consistent defense so i i think there's i'm i'm open to the idea that either philadelphia can still beat the

nets without lowry or that they, you know, maybe you don't have a chance and Lowry isn't gonna make any of the difference. So I don't know. I wish I had a definitive answer for you on that one. I just don't know. I wonder, do you think Jackie, if Embiid hadn't gotten hurt, was a hundred percent kicking ass, there's a little more urgency to do a trade like that? Fair question. I think just knowing Daryl knowing his personality there's always urgency to make the best and the biggest deal that's just who daryl morey is and interestingly it's a little bit who doc rivers is and you know maxi it's interesting thibel and maxi haven't found their

footing with doc rivers we can i think it's fair to say there's somewhat of a pattern there. Oh, yes. It takes a while for young players to impress Doc Rivers. And Kyle Lowry, you know that Kyle Lowry had Doc at hello. You know he did. Yeah, that's fair. Well, I think by Philly not doing anything other than the George Hill thing, they dip their foot in the water. But, you know, they're also saying like if Embiid's not

100% or Brooklyn is just going to continue to kick everybody's ass maybe we were a year away anyway we'll see by the way their defensive numbers this month even without Embiid playing for the full month very good they're like seven points better than every other the second best team so you know maybe they looked at it going, maybe we like our guard rotation. I still think it's the 30 million. It's such a challenging number to get to. It's not even about Lowry,

the player, what he may or may not bring. It's just how much can we really change. For contenders to go, we have to move out within that much money do we really want to

shake things up that much. I was just going to say, I do like George Hill with them. I don't want to, it's not my intent to diss George Hill. He's a consolation prize, though, in my mind. Fair.

He's a good consolation prize, but it's not the convertible. It's the minivan, maybe. I don't know. So Toronto is 18-26. They are now the 11th seed. But they're only three games behind the eight seed, the Celtics. They're only four games behind the five seed, the Miami Heat. They've kind of had the year from hell.

They've been playing in Tampa. Their big guys have been just bad. And I think if you're going to make the case, they're not going to turn it around. The case would be Tampa crossed with, they don't have the big guys. They just don't have the defensive infrastructure anymore. Maybe you write the season off. On the other hand, it is Toronto. They have one of the best five coaches that have the Larry Van Vliet thing. They shook it up a little bit with this Trent Powell trade, which I think ultimately might be a good thing for them. And if they get Siakam going

and they win some games, and I guess what I'm trying to figure out is 10 teams can go. Six guaranteed playoff seeds and then 7, 8, 9, 10 we have the play-in. So if you had to pick which one's not even

going to make the play-in out of all those, I'll just list down from four. Charlotte, Miami, the Knicks, Hawks, Celtics, Pacers, Bulls, Raptors. One of those teams will not even make the play-in game. Well, Charlotte doesn't have ball.

Charlotte doesn't have ball. Charlotte's 22 and 21, though. Yeah, but they don't have ball, and that's going to catch up to them. He was spectacular. I loved him. He was so much fun to watch. So much fun. You're still a fun team.

You're still a fun team. You still have good players. But that's a, that's a blow that you don't recover from in the short term. I don't believe. Can I make a counter? I just, I'm going to zag.

Yeah, I'm going to, I think we both zag. A little more zag. Go. He's been incredible. He's been incredible. And,

and Borrego for the most part, if you've been looking at it, he, he sits Lamello when these games are in the balance and they, they want a close game again this week. And then they, you know, look,

everybody beats the rockets. So I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not telling you they're better without Lamello. I will rephrase that. I said it earlier with, with bill, but there's a weird thing going on where he wasn't in the end of some of

these close games that they've been really good at. So my, my point on that was, I liked how, I liked how they always had good guards out and not having Lamello anymore compromises that. But I do think they always had good guards out and not having Lamello anymore compromises that. But I do think they, Monk will play more.

Devante Graham will play more. My guy, Monk. And I do think they can try to patch it together. So I would say out of all of these teams, um, cause Indiana got Levert back and I just feel like they have to be taken a little bit more seriously.

I would say they're scuffling though. They're scling Indiana you're right Jackie they've been they've been a mess kind of yeah they just you know there's something not right there here I'll offer it up it's nice they got Levert back but Levert's doing his own thing and so you take this team and they were struggling before they got Levert back I mean at one point I felt like the Pacers are the most overlooked team in the east and then they go through this brutal stretch. And now Brogdon is trying to figure out where he's going. Sabonis is looking at it. I mean, to pencil in Karis Levert for 15, 18 shots a game and disrupt a team that probably kind of knew who they were. It's great to add that talent, but you can see there's some offensive growing pains

figuring out how this is going to work now. And TJ Warren coming back too. I would say the Knicks are my number one candidate to fall out, and I would have the Pacers second, and I would have Toronto third. I actually think, I just feel like Toronto, you can't underestimate even what we saw last year in that Celtics series when they were outmanned and they just fought and fought and fought and fought. Yeah, they do. I don't see that team rolling over if they're a couple games out with four weeks left.

I think they'll keep fighting. Just remember, not all of that team is still here. That's all. True. That team you're talking about. True. What about your Boston Celtics? So you've decided that Evan Fournier

has solved everything and they're going to be the fourth seed? Yeah. We're good. I think Fournier, you missed it in part two. We were comparing him to Larry Bird and Bob Cousy

and some of the great Celtics. Okay, there you go. Now, I think they are a little bit better. They're going to miss Tice, though, a little bit. They are. So that came in late, and I was hoping if they were going to do this deal, you know, Gordon, I get it.

Like Fournier, good free throw shooter, having a career year, shooting in the high 30s, three-point shooting. I think another guy that if you put him in a new system, his defensive numbers have dropped every year. He had two years ago, he's a much better defensive player. I think he can be a guy that can get into guys on the wing in a good system, which I'd like to think Brad Stevens has,

but the thing that's disappointed me most about Boston all year has been their defense, so I'm confused by that. But clearly, the Tice thing was very simple. It was, we don't want to be in the tax. And man, I think they're going to rue that one. I mean, I'm sure they were trying to move. I'd like to think they were trying to move Tristan Thompson instead, right? We've got to assume that, don't we?

Yes. Yeah, I just don't know who would want him if they watched him this year at $10 million next year. Right, 100%. Right. So, you know, because I could get into Tice and Robert Williams as your tandem with, you know, but I think they're going to miss Tice more than,

well, I know that, I'm sure they didn't want to do it. It's money. It's the tax structure. That's what it is. I don't like that move. I don't like it. It's funny. It goes back to last summer when they have the 30th pick and they don't really want to make it. And they want to create cap space because I think they think they're going to get Tristan Thompson. And by the way, I was on board with Tristan Thompson. I thought he'd be really good for them. He has not been good. But they trade Cantor and they trade the 30th pick

for two second round picks, which gives them the ability to sign Thompson. But now they go get Fournier with those two second round picks, basically. But now they also have to sacrifice Tice. Yeah, it's a big sacrifice.

I guess the case could be you could have had Cantor and Tice and Fournier, potentially. So I don't know. I don't know if that played out the right way. I do think it's a big bet on Robert Williams, which... Well, it's time, right? It's time.

And that's the thing. When you have Tice, we were talking about this in the last part. Stevens is going to play Tice. He's going to play Jeff Teague. If he has these guys, he's ultimately as a competitive guy, he's can't help himself. And now you're removing those two options, which almost seems to be by design would be my guess.

Yeah. That's probably not the worst way to go, I guess. But yeah, I think the Fournier thing really helps them though, just cause, cause how bad their backup swings were. And now they have a confident backup swing.

So it has to make them better. Has to make them better. But does it get to the root of the issue? What's the root of the issue? The root of the issue for me is just, again, watching that game. And I watched the game last night and they come back from 25 down is there's just a disconnect with that team. And it's funny. I kept thinking, you know who they need? They need Kyle Lowry. I hate to harp on Kyle Lowry, but that's what the kind of guy they need. Someone in your face, in these young guys' faces that they respect, that's saying, hey, it's not this simple. It's not supposed to be simple. Find a way to share the ball. Find a way to play together. Stop yelling

at the refs. Get your rear end back on defense. Come on, man. In other words, so Kemba Walker, who doesn't love Kemba Walker? He's the sweetest, kindest, nicest professional, maybe in all of sports, respectful to us, respectful to his teammates. But how about a nasty Kemba Walker? Wouldn't that be great? Like a Kemba Walker that grew little devil horns. That's what the Celtics need. That's not smart? Isn't that supposed to be smart? I thought that was part of the package with him. Yeah, but smart is a separate.

I'm talking about a really high-level player with a high level. And again, I don't want to disparage Marcus Smart because we've talked about him a thousand times. But I'm talking about someone that's been an all-star that could fill it up 20, 25 points a game, but has an edge. And I think they, the root of it with the Celtics is what is their identity? Where does their edge come from? Because it can't, it can't just be Marcus smart. That doesn't work. Yeah. We talked Sunday night. We were talking, I I was saying I just thought They were soft

And I don't like The word soft Necessarily with players But I think when you can talk about A team's identity It's like Are you a finesse team?

When you get punched in the mouth Do you punch back? Yeah Are you Are you the ones committing The borderline fouls? Are you the ones complaining To the refs that you're being fouled?

When there are collisions Are you the ones going Into the baskets that you're being fouled? When there are collisions, are you the ones going into the basket support? There's, I think that's been part of their identity is they just get knocked around and it's visible every game. Okay. But how about this? How about,

are you the guy when you miss five shots in a row and you're one of the most talented offense places in the league, you kind of like just throw your hands up and stop guarding your guy. Cause that's what Jason Tatum did for strengths of that game last night. And I'm watching him and I know he could be a lockdown defender. I mean, I interviewed Popovich about it. He's like, that kid could be Paul George. He could be a two-way player of that caliber.

Hopefully not that. Well, okay. Fair enough. But if you get frustrated because your shots aren't falling and you kind of, you know, throw up your, you know, the shoulder slumping and you don't have the same intensity on defense. That's a problem for me. It should be a problem for everybody.

And, you know, great, good players when they're not, when they don't have it going offensively, they get a steal defensively. They make a play. They get it. That's how they get themselves back into the game. They go to the free throw line. And that's the other thing I'm hoping. I looked it up, Evan Fournier career, or maybe this year, I'm not sure which. Averaging 4.8 free throws attempts a game.

Not a huge number, but my goodness, the Celtics are a disaster in that regard too. And he's an 80% free throw shooter. So if nothing else, maybe he can get to the line a little bit. Yeah. It's the rare team that can't get to the line and doesn't shoot a shitload of threes, which is not where you want to be in today's NBA, Rosillo. No, and on top of that, they don't defend. They're the second worst defensive team this month. Yeah, and that's the part I don't understand, Ryan. Explain that to me.

It doesn't make any sense to me. I think at their point of attack, they're incredibly weak. I think Smart is coming back from the injury, but I think we'd all agree with his defensive rep he's better against bigs and switches. Like Smart. Like Giannis. Giannis. He's great on Giannis. Yeah, I mean, Smart will switch against a guy you're like, he has no chance

unless you watch him all the time. You're like, you know what? He holds up really, really well. I don't want to hold it against any perimeter guy when some of these ridiculous athletes are getting past them when they turn down the screen and all that. Because almost everybody. It's hard to stay in front of a ton of these guys so but smart to just hey i'm going to go out there and lock all these guys down i think the problem for smart is the leader is the vocal leader that has that edge that we kept hearing about when they were

losing and they weren't defending it's because he was out and you can say okay well he's back but he's back post the injury i think it can be really annoying when smart thinks he's the best player in a team to the other guys so when the leader is the vocal guy who you think is annoying at times too, I don't know that that message comes across as clear as it would in other cases. And all of us that have watched him understand all the intangibles,

but when you think of this team and all the moments where they've looked lackadaisical, where they look like their identity offensively is two terrific wings taking turns each possession, where other guys aren't feeling like they're involved and you guys are right about the free throw thing if anything they should just watch video other guys selling calls because jalen and tatum are like tougher and that they don't really go to look to sell the call and the league is about selling the call now so if you're not doing it you're just

missing free points by not making a point of emphasizing any kind of contact and then you add in the tice part which you know obviously you're right on point as you look through it because in the previous part when the trade came through at the end you're like okay they're out of attacks that's why they did the deal they knew they weren't going to keep them and maybe it sets them getting out of the repeater i'd have to look at it again here sets them avoiding the repeater because they probably like fournier they probably like like danny loves shooters shooters that can create a little bit yeah so i agree with that i think they'll try to re-sign him i do yeah i think that's part of the that's part of the play here

but but you know your point is a good one about trying to stop anyone at point of attack perimeter defense but again what good teams if if there's a breakdown you rotate you cover and you recover right rotate cover and plan right you're funneling or that kind of stuff yeah and and i just don't good teams, if there's a breakdown, you rotate, you cover, and you recover. Rotate, cover, and recover. You have a plan, right. You're funneling or that kind of stuff. And I just don't see that happening. And you look at them individually. I think Jalen Brown, Jason Tam can both be high-level defenders.

We know Marcus Smart is. And some of those other guys I thought could be. And as a group, I just expected more. Well, Fournier's not going to help them defensively. No, he is not. But he will be able to bring some of the stuff to the table that they missed from Hayward. Size. The inclusiveness. Some size. The ability to switch

even though he's not great defensively, but also the ball can move with him a little bit. He can cut. He knows how to play basketball. That's what they were missing from the swings. All right. We're going to take a break. Coming back, want to get your thoughts on the five-year odyssey of Victor Oladipo going to the Bay Area Heat. Oh my gosh. I know, right? All right. Coming back in one second. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed

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Must be legal drinking age. All right. So this has been whispered about really since old Depot was kicking ass his first Indiana seasons. Like, you know, really wants to go Miami. Well, now it finally happened.

Um, Houston, I, we're still trying to figure out what they got in the James Harden trade that anyone would actually want. Um, they didn't chose not to keep Karis LeVert. They're just keeping their fingers crossed on all these picks a little like what David

Griffin did with that drew holiday trade. Same thing. Oh, I got all these picks. Well, wait, let's examine pick by pick. Oh, wait, those picks aren't that great. And now they end up basically giving Oladipo away to Miami. Miami is one of the four best teams in the East. I think we're all kind of waiting to see if they have a surge here.

Is he somebody that could actually make a difference for them in round two when they have to play probably Brooklyn, whoever the one seed is? So I was on with Eddie Johnson the other day. I like that show. Eddie Johnson and Termini? Yeah, yeah. I was on with those guys.

Priscilla, we have to get Termini on. He has hotter takes than we are. I mean, they're really good. I like that show. They're fun. Yeah. And Eddie and I got, we kind of went back and forth a little bit because I was like, hey, I think Oladipo's, you know, worth a shot here. And he was like, absolutely not. Like he's like, and he didn't want to, it wasn't like he was trying to slander Oladipo because everybody, by all accounts, he's a good guy. He's never bothered anybody. But he's like, why do you want a 42% career field goal percentage shooter on your team? He can't score.

He can't shoot. He was going. And so he kind of made me stop and think a little bit about it. And at the time we were discussing that, we thought either Tyler Hero, although unlikely, but probably Duncan Robinson would have to be in the deal, right? And he's not. He's not. So I don't understand this. I don't know how.

Well, it's a pick swap where they're not going to even have the worst pick in the trade. I just don't understand it from Houston's side. Do you guys? I do, because I think the market was absolutely abysmal for Oladipo because other teams knew, even if I'm getting him in here as a rental, like, what do I want to give up? Everybody thought. Look, I don't talk to all 30 teams, but there are enough teams that were like,

look, he's going to Miami or New York as a free agent anyway. Free agent, yeah. Him turning down the extension really wasn't that big of a deal because it was a shorter extension. They could have offered him a much bigger extension. Houston could have with the bird rights if they wanted to this summer. But the way it worked, they could only offer him the two, which was weird that it even got out. Because then when I got out, I went, well, why would Oladipo?

Did Oladipo's camp want it out to let people know, hey, they're offering Max money? Or did Houston's camp want to get it out to say like, hey, we tried. We tried with the guy. Yeah, we're trying to take care of this guy yeah so i also always kind of like to follow the woge timeline because he was saying all week like there was there was something in play there was something in play and i wonder if houston knows hey we have this terrible miami deal available so we know we can trade him if we absolutely want to trade him and then other teams that i talked to said they were calling about oladipo all the time and so it all adds up this is really the best i don't i don't think it's necessarily

like i'm not going to tell you it's a good trade i think it's the only trade wow i for me it's hard to believe the lakers wouldn't come flying in off the top rope at this point if it's like all right if this this is the trade i will we'll throw cab, KCP, and our second-round pick or anything. I will tell you in my little dialing around the league a bit in the days leading up to this, there just seems to be some lingering questions about his health, his long-term health, and that's always a red flag. What is he? Is he 28?

28. Yeah, he's 28. So he's young enough if he's not damaged goods, and I think that's a really heavy, heavy, heavy moniker to put on him. I don't see evidence of that when I'm watching him play right now, but there seems to be some hesitation from teams about that as well, which is interesting because it's been how long now since that? I mean, it was a bad injury, but it's been, we're almost two years. It's been a while. Jackie, it's a great

point because I think all of us just assume, especially when you're younger, you're like, okay, so what does this mean? He's just done now? Like the quad, he's just never going to be like, that seems pretty significant. And yet there are times where I think he looks physically okay. And then other times he doesn't, but it all collectively looked bad and it looked i'm totally willing to believe that it's going to look better in miami just because he's not going to be with houston who i think at one point played the most starting lineups of any team in the league yeah poor i mean poor steven silas i'm going to say it again good absolutely yeah it's just so unfair and and you put him in miami and it's both smart and he's going to be playing around veterans who understand him, who want him there, who want to make it work.

Jimmy Butler, you know, I don't know what their relationship is, but he's going to, you know, he's going to bring him in with open arms. It's just interesting though, because they're a team that's had trouble shooting this year, which still astonishes me that we would say that about Miami, but they've had trouble with their, you know, three point shooting and everything. And that's not Victor Oladipo. It's not going to solve that problem.

Hero has had a rocky second season. So it looks like Miami is getting Aldridge. And this was on Twitter. Oh, buyout? Buyout? Yeah. At Pickup Hoop tweeted this. Miami turned Myers Leonard, Kelly Olenek, Moe Harkless, and Avery Badley into Trevor Ariza,

Bezaliga, I still can't say it, Oladipo, and Aldridge. That's a pretty... Bialica. Bialica. So to Trevor Ariza, Bezaliga, I still can't say it, Oladipo, and Aldridge. That's a pretty... Bialica. So they got Ariza, Bialica, Oladipo, and Aldridge for four guys who, other than Olenek, was the only one who was playing out of those four.

That's pretty good. And Olenek's up, right? Isn't Olenek up? Olenek's up. Yeah. So, Bialica, that's a nice little pickup. I just think he was, you know, on a team that there was some unusual depth at his position on a not very good team. I thought the Celtics might make a run at him, too.

And I think they did. But, you know, Fournier, I think, was their priority, I guess. Bielitsa will help them, I think. Yeah. They certainly have a nine-man rotation now. It's pretty impressive. Russillo, Kelly Olenek buyout. What's the most fun

team from a comedy standpoint for him? Lakers? I'm trying to... No, we can do blue uniform. No, Dallas. No, no, the Cavs. He took down Kevin Love. Come on, guys. It's the Cavs. Go back to the the Cavs. He took down Kevin Love. Come on, guys. It's the Cavs.

Go back to the Cavs? Unexpected. Kevin Love probably hasn't as contracted that. He has veto power over that. It's not a no question. He doesn't have his own trade veto, but he'd be able to veto that. I say Dallas. Make it look like Hoosiers.

Oh, wow. With Redick and Mellie and Luca and Kleber. Yeah, you could just go run it out. Normandale on the sidelines. Rondo to the Clippers? Jackie? Yeah, I'm surprised. He makes a lot of money.

Makes too much money. But maybe the Clippers don't care. Maybe Balmer doesn't care. He definitely doesn't care. Yeah, he really doesn't care. Definitely, definitely does not care. And I see, I put Rondo, he's not as good as Kyle Lager, but I put him in the same category in that he doesn't care. Definitely, definitely does not care. And I see, I put Rondo, he's not as good as Kyle Lager,

but I put him in the same category in that he doesn't care. I remember someone told me when he was with the Lakers his first year with LeBron, LeBron, I forget what the context was, but Rondo looked at him and goes, yeah, man, don't do that, man. He has no problem saying that to anybody, everybody. He's going to be a really good coach in this league.

And I think he helped Trey Young a lot in the short time he was with them in Atlanta, but he, but he wasn't very helpful as a player, right? He was injured. He struggled. So I don't know, maybe the Clippers want him for as much his wisdom, you know, he's the Yoda of the group and sort of certainly Tyloo knows him well from their time together in Boston. So I like it. I mean, I don't understand the price tag for him. Another thing I don't understand so much. Yeah, he's seven and a half million

next year too. I totally understood why Atlanta was trying to do it. They had all this cap space. The guys are trying to figure out where to stay. Hey, we'll keep them around. I also understand why the Clippers did it

when they don't care about money because they felt like point guard thing needed to improve can i just throw this out there because i don't think anyone's going to agree with me okay i've jackie knows this better than anybody but the legendary stories of rondo's understanding of the game like it's it's incredible right it's it's like just next level stuff why is he going to be a good coach when he never seems to get along with anybody after a little while? Isn't that the number one job is to have a personality that sort of

defines a way to defer to the players? Maybe it'll be a Doug Collins where he'll have two really good years. Then the third year, you just kind of have to go. See, I'm going to push back on this whole narrative. I expected you to. Who does he not get along with? Ray Allen. Okay? Ray Allen. He's not the only one that not get along with Ray Allen? Okay. Ray Allen.

He's not the only one that did get along with Ray Allen. So let's, what team was he on? He battled with doc for a while. He battled with Carlisle. Well, he battled with coaches. That's different than players.

And he battled with Carlisle because that was a bad fit for both of them. That net, that trade never should have happened. I don't, I remember talking to Rick and Rick was like saying all the right things, but I think that was Cuban that wanted that to happen back in the day. Or maybe Dianne Nelson Jr. Rick, he shut it down.

The Pelicans, he shut it down. When he was with the Lakers, he sat in the seats and then got mad when the media was like, that's a little disrespectful to Luke Walton. So we can say that he got along with the players, did along with the coaches. I just think you have to be wired a certain way now with younger players that you can't be as combative and maybe bill's right maybe it's a two-year thing where it's like whoa this guy really woke us up but now we can't

stand him anymore scott skiles yeah i like those coaches but let me tell you a story about rondo so rondo was playing with uh i gotta remember i'm confusing the teams he was with chicago right yeah he was yeah he was right he's with chicago and He was with Chicago, right? Yeah, he was. Yeah, he was. Right? He was with Chicago. And you know what he did on his off day? He was going to their G League affiliate and watching the young players and staying after the game and talking to them and giving them pointers. That's the Rondo most people don't know about. Okay, but could it be because nobody wanted to hang out with him?

No, no, no, no. I'm just kidding. KG and those guys, they still swear by him. I know, I know. You know, so I think there's, I think, I no. I'm just kidding. KG and those guys, they still swear by him. I know, I know. So I think he's growing and changing. I've talked to him a lot in the last calendar year, more than I had in previous years. And he's recognizing,

I could have handled things better in Dallas. I could have done things differently here. The guys, when I did that story on him for the playoffs last year, I talked to Bobby Portis and all these young guys that played with him, and I was just curious what they thought of him. And they're all like, no, no, he was the man.

The minute the game ended, they're on the plane. He's got his laptop open. He's going over plays. And if a young player went by, he goes, you want me to show you this? And not like, hey, get over here, kid. Get over here, rookie. Can I show you this? And you know, you can walk by

or you can sit down next to him and learn something. So I, my money's on Rondo as a coach. I think he's going to be good. I have a half decent Rondo story. I hosted this charity thing for the Celtics with the Shimrock Foundation where they had all the players. They do it like every October.

So I was the MC one year. I was there. I was in the stands, in the crowd. How. So I was the MC one year. I was there. I was in the stands, in the crowd. How'd Bill do? He did very well. I did well. He was very glib, very glib. It was Rondo's last season, right?

So he's the best player in the team. It was this new era for the Celtics. And at one point we had to interview the players. So I was on the stage with Rondo. And, you know, he's like, hey, how you doing? And then we start doing it on the stage. There's probably like 500 people he's like, Hey, how you doing? But, and then we start doing it on the stage. There's probably like 500 people there. I don't even know how many. And there was one question early and I could see, you know, when you're, there's certain people,

when you're with them, you're talking to them, but you can feel it. You feel like they're sizing you up. Like they're kind of like studying you. They're studying your mannerisms. They're almost like you can, you feel like they're, it's like Arnold Schwarzenegger and like studying you. They're studying your mannerisms. They're almost like you feel like they're, it's like Arnold Schwarzenegger in the Terminator. They're just kind of processing all these things. Sarah Connor. And I could see him watching me as I was doing the MC thing. And, but not watching me, like, I hope this guy does well,

more watching me, like trying to figure me out. And I think I had some question early and maybe he like intentionally didn't give me the greatest answer. It was almost like he was trying to test me to see how I'd respond. And then I quickly like audibled with it where like, Oh, I guess I'm not getting anything from Rondo today or something like that. And I kind of gave it back to him and then he like snapped in. And then all of a sudden he was like really engaged. It was like, he had to kind of test me to see how I would handle

him being kind of a dick. And I got to think that's awesome. I got to think that's what it's like to be his teammate though. Right. He's probably, he takes each person and he's like, does these little weird Rondo personality tests on them. And if they pass, then he's in.

And if they don't pass, he's out. I think he's one of those guys. I think he's outgrown that. I do. Well, yeah, this was eight years ago.

Yeah. I think that's, I think he's learned a lot through the years from he's played with. Think about the guys that he's outgrown that. I do. Well, yeah, this was eight years ago. Yeah, I think he's learned a lot through the years he's played with. Think about the guys that he's played with. He's played with some of the greatest players of all time, starting with KG, Paul Pierce, Dirk Nowitzki. I mean, he's got a pretty good LeBron James, Anthony Davis. You know, tell me when to stop.

And they all have genuine. All those guys I just named, I think if you ask any one of them what they think of rondo the answer is going to be pretty positive and then you take the young players like that i mentioned like a guy like bobby portis uh there were a bunch of young guys like they're escaping me they're out of my brain right now trey young being one of them too um and those guys have great respect so it's the kind of like the guys in the middle, maybe that maybe those are the ones he's not exactly sure how to, how to navigate. Where do you see Drummond going?

Well, I would have, I would have said maybe the Lakers as a pickup as a Lakers as just a, as a buyout or the heat as a buyout, but they're going with Aldridge. Uh, I mean, people keep connecting him to the Celtics. Maybe now that Tice is gone, I don't see it, but possible, I guess. What's the price tag? I think it's going to be the Knicks, but Russillo, it would be fun if Drummond went to the Lakers for the LeBron media mafia. If Drummond kind of came together and it just would be another bow in the series of quivers for LeBron, right? Oh, Drummond. Nobody's ever gotten as much of Drata Drummond

as LeBron did. We could have that whole narrative for a couple of days. That would be fun. There you go. I just don't think anything's going to top a 4-0 GM record in the All-Star game. No. No. If we're going LeBron, like him salvaging Dwight Howard's career has to be number one all time for him.

He'll never top that. Dwight Howard, everyone was done out. It was over. Even the Celtics wouldn't look at him and they actually needed a center. Like his career was over

and LeBron turned him into an asset again. It's unbelievable. Single-handedly. Well, how do you know it was LeBron? Because who else was doing it? Because it was Lobs. I completely underestimated know it was LeBron? Because who else was doing it? Because it was Lobs.

I completely underestimated the fact that LeBron brings everything to him. Look, I understand everybody has to collapse and worry about LeBron, but the first couple of weeks of regular season games between Dwight and JaVale, I went, oh, wait, they're just going to get easy Lobs the entire time because LeBron's amazing. Look, I still think one of the best basketball accomplishments of the last 20 years is him bringing that 0-7 team to the finals because that team being in NBA finals,

if you look at that Cleveland roster, I've always counted it as half a ring. Beating the Pistons was unbelievable. You're right. It's the lost LeBron accomplishment. That team was really good. A lot of the early LeBron accomplishment. That team was really good. All a lot of the early LeBron stuff was kind of incredible. But I'll say this about Dwight Howard. I don't think you're giving him enough credit. Fine. I'm glad I'm glad I know that way

because I don't want to give him credit. I know you don't. I get it. But I'm telling you, he was at rock, rock, rock bottom. He had like fired his like 12th agent. And I think he was smart enough to know. I can't, I have to keep my mouth shut and play hard and just be, just, I got to give up. You know, it's like Mello, right? Mello finally was like, all right, maybe I will come off the bench.

You know, it's kind of the same thing with Dwight Harris. Okay, maybe I just have to be a backup banger, agitator, disruptor that might score once in a while. And if I can do that and I know I can do that, then I'm going to have, you know, three, four more years. So I give him a little credit too. Um, no Lonzo trade, which we, we talked about earlier. Um, I never traded him. Why was he buying that? You wouldn't. Um, did anything happen today that made you either of you change your opinion on who would win the title? Oh, no.

I thought you were going to ask me if that surprised me. Like Vucevic. I didn't think Vucevic was going. That surprised me. Okay. Let's talk about that. Why didn't you think he was going? Because my intel was telling me that they're probably not going to move him.

Now, they got, you know, did they get enough? They want picks. They got Carter. They got Carter. They got Porter, the expiring. I guess they got, once they made the determination, we're really doing this. We're really, but I mean, Chicago, I like what happened to Chicago. And if they had ever gotten Lonzo, I would have been really happy with him. They kept your boy, Lori Markin.

Yeah. Kept him. I can still sign him when I get hired as a GM, I feel like I can still get Markkinen and Mellie and Monk and have them and build the team I want to build. And then you can finish 12th in the conference. How's that? Who else do I like?

Oh, by the way, I never stopped liking Javante Green. I know he never played, but I still feel like he would have a room on my bench. For sure. Yeah, that one doesn't make any sense. he never played, but I still feel like he would have a room on my bench. Stuff like that. That one doesn't make any sense. I mean, I know he's super athletic and stuff, and there was a cool dunk every now and then.

Listen, I would rather have that than just guys who ran to the corners so they could miss a three. I would at least rather have somebody doing stuff. So you still have Brooklyn to win the title? Yes, I do. Well, I mean, we have to always say if Durant, I mean, it's just a long time he's been out and I get why

they're doing it. I would do it too. But now it's like he and Anthony Davis, both just out, out, out, and both for the same reasons, right? Any area down there, the calf, the hamstring, it leads to that Achilles. And it's just, we've all learned our lesson. You just can't mess with that. But yeah, Brooklyn, everybody I talked to, all the coaches, everybody I could talk to, they're like, we just never knew Harden would be this compliant and this all-in.

Compliant? Well, yeah, because he is. He's showing up for conditioning drills. He's doing everything and drills. He's taught, you know, he's doing everything and more. He's not worrying about end of the shots. And we've talked about it. Maybe it changes in the playoffs.

From what I understand, you know, he, he knows he messed up in the way he blasted out of Houston. He's embarrassed about it. And, you know, maybe it only lasts for this year,

but even if it only lasts for this year, you know, I've asked coaches time and time again, can you flip the switch defensively? If you're a talented team, can you switch the, can you flip that switch defensively in time and then turn around and win a championship? And everybody says, yes, you can't flip a switch offensively. That's impossible because usually you don't have the talent. So I'm so i'm trusting my experts on this i'm trying to think of a team that couldn't flip the switch so i guess it would be like that yeah the defensively i guess you would go to like those the nash suns team but it had

more to do with the fact that they were just undersized against oh yeah and they just played a different way you know so people have told me in the past you know that that fate that fateful lakers team where they they loaded up with peyton and malone and everybody that they they were a bit like that that they just said oh don't worry about that we'll we'll get that straight away we'll get that straightened away in time you know that was just a team of guys that just took way too much for granted you know well look the Warriors the Warriors throughout that entire run they were a special defensive team they were and then the last year you could see that it was slipping a little bit but it still has more to do with the injuries than their defensive switch but we had Bob Myers on the show and I said yeah look I'm noticing some things or whatever like what do

you see what do you think and he goes you know if you were to hike Mount Everest with your best friends and you did it and you were like, this is amazing. And then I said, hey, let's do it again next week. Like you'd still want to do it maybe, but you just you're not going to be. And I think that's I mean, look, it's the Bulls, that second three-peat team, everything we've learned about it. What I don't like is when a team that's accomplished nothing thinks they can turn off the switch. Right. And they're like like don't worry i mean the celtics kairi team the last kairi year was the poster i'm not just

saying this because it's the three of us that's why that team annoyed the hell out of me because they kept acting like they'd won a couple titles being like well once we turn it on and once we have everybody look out and you go there's nothing here that tells me i'm supposed to give you any benefit of the doubt whatsoever and that's how bad they were in the second round so i'm i'm okay with a team not being as locked in that has the resume to do it but it's funny how with that lakers example you have jackie that was other players that were kind of almost taking credit for the lakers previous resume when it's like okay but your group your group has no right to tell us we're supposed to just believe you about this magical switch. 100% agree with that.

Can I give you one team that I wish had done something today? Get your reactions. The Sons of Phoenix. What did you want them to do? So I guess the question for me Do we think Aiton in a playoff series if they're down 3-2 playing in LA

or I don't know, they're down 3-2 playing in Denver or whatever, do we think we can trust him in the last six minutes of a game did they need

the second guy the security blanket in case the Aiton thing isn't going the right way that would have been my question with them go ahead Ryan

come on Rosillo I know you have thoughts I don't think they have a lot of pieces that they could have moved out unless they said, all right, let's just go ahead and move a draft pick.

And a draft pick from this year, nobody would have interest in. I think Jalen Smith would have been the move, right? Yeah. The 10th pick last year. And you maybe move him with Sarich. And now you can get somebody in the 15 million range.

I guess that would have been the move. And who did you want? I don't know. Maybe that's why they didn't make the move because there was that person or maybe they think they can get a buyout guy. But weirdly, I think that would be a great Olenek team. I do think like he could potentially play for them.

And I think he would play well with the way that that team is just a really smart half-court team. And I think he's a smart half-court player. I think he would help them. Got a little size. I mean, the question about Aiton is, to me, it's just, how do we know? We just don't have a big enough sample size to answer that question. He's never played in a really, really super meaningful playoff game yet,

I would argue. I don't feel great about it. I don't feel great about it either. Right. But just because you don't feel great about it either. of Utah, and if the Lakers part of this isn't healthy, Phoenix, I have no problem with Phoenix not doing anything because I also think they're looking around going, hey, we might not be that far off. It might not be inconceivable, but the Aiton part of it is something that at least the last month, although I think he's finished games a little bit more, the more I think about it, but there was a weird stretch where they were

looking at his March minutes. I think he was seventh in minutes heading into this week on the team for fourth quarter minutes. Excuse me. So, you know, it could be a matchup thing. It could be trying to get him him going again. But being concerned about him, even though I say that, I'm not to the point where I've just completely write them off because I just respect Paul and what Booker can do so much. And Bridges. He's too young.

He's too young. No. Yeah. I'm not. I'm not saying trade him. I'm just saying. He's too young. No. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not saying trade them. I'm just saying, no, I know.

I think, I actually think the sons are, are a legit contender. They were eight and eight. Their record heading into last night was 29 and 13. So they were 21 and five over their last 26. And a lot of those wins were convincing. They lost a really dumb game to a magic team that would trade everybody 12 hours later. Yeah, it no longer exists.

But if they had won the game yesterday, they would have been 30 and 13. They're a two seed. The Lakers are not getting a two seed with the injuries they have. I guess the Clippers could make a run. The Nuggets are four back. What about the Nuggets? Did you already talk about them in part one, two, or three? We did, but let's hear your Aaron Gordon thoughts.

Well, so the Nuggets to me were interesting. They got JaVale McGee too, didn't they? I think they did. Yes, which we liked. We liked that one. Yeah, so that's what they needed to. We had talked, I think, Bill, last week even, about the idea they needed a rim protector

to take some pressure off Jokic. And so JaVale McGee, if nothing else, can be that, right? You're not asking him to do a lot. You're going to ask him to do a little. And JaVale McGee plays limited minutes anyway. So I liked that. And I really just like where Denver was at the training deadline because I told you not to sour on my boy Jamal Murray,

who is now just lighting it up. And Michael Porter Jr. is now rounding into form. And all of a sudden, to me, they look like a pretty scary team. Now, Gordon, I think he helps him. Gary Harris, again, I just thought Orlando would get more. I just thought they'd get more. And Gary Harris Jr. can be a good player, but he's just hurt all the time. I just don't know how you lay your hat on that.

I mean, how many games has he missed this year already? Over 20. He's played 19 games this year. Yeah, so it's just it's a shame because I think there's a talented player there, but you got to be able to get on the floor. It's like Romeo Langford, you know, you got to get on the floor. Yeah, at some point, durability

becomes a skill at some point. 100%. So, I think Aaron Gordon, I like him as a piece for the next, but I'm not a hundred percent sure. Again, he's a, what a 32% three point shooter, but he can, you know, he can, he could score off the dribble. He could slash. He, you know, maybe he, what he does do is limit the, you know, help you manage the minutes

of your stars a little better because you can give them a blow and he can go out there and score a little bit for you while they're on the bench resting. So I like I'm bullish on Denver. I like where they're at. I think we haven't seen the best version of Denver yet and I think it's coming. I like you know what we're headed for in

round one is Phoenix locked into that two seed and if Phoenix got fell to the three seed because I think there's a chance the Clippers can pass them and become the two seed and, um, or if Phoenix got fell to the three seed, cause I think there's a chance that Clippers can pass them and become the two seed and Phoenix is three seed. And then some jockeying to see who can play the six seed. Cause everyone's going to want to play Phoenix out of it followed by the disres, Chris Paul

deciding it's a sign of disrespect and some sort of awesome storyline with that. Um, well, I, I thought this was a really fun trade deadline before we go, Jackie. it's a sign of disrespect and some sort of awesome storyline with that. Well, I thought this was a really fun trade deadline. Before we go, Jackie, so I found out my dad is a huge UConn women's basketball fan like three weeks ago. Oh, Paige Buecherson. I don't know. It's not like he was hiding this from me.

He's 3,000 miles away. There's TV shows he watches I don't know about. There's fan things. So he, I don't know about there's fan things. So he was here visiting a few weeks ago and we were going to go to dinner and, and he was watching the Yukon women's basketball game, whoever they're playing. And I'm like, I'm like, what's going on here? Why are you watching Yukon? And he's like, I'm a big Yukon fan. And I'm like, what? Since when, when did this happen? Like you were always like BC, Holy Cross, like now you're UConn. And apparently he's been really into UConn women's basketball the last couple of years.

And he's enamored with Paige. As he should be. And how great she is. Azzy Fudd. Wait till he sees Azzy Fudd. They're like best friends. And she was the number one recruit and UConn's got her on the hook for next year. So where's Paige in the hierarchy?

It's too early. It's too early. But how talented is she though? Oh no, she's breaking all sorts of UConn records. Freshman records. She's really, really good. But Zazie Fudd's even better. So it's like, bring it on.

The embarrassments of riches, bring it on. It's too early to say where she is. I still think, I mean, Maya Moore was incredible for sure. But I've never seen anybody like Diana Taurasi. Diana Taurasi is my favorite athlete of all time in any sport, male or female. There's just no one else like her. She's just like Kobe Bryant, Bill Russell, Larry Bird,

Magic Johnson, all wrapped into one person who just spews profanities and backs it up. And just everything about her is just I'm not promoting profanity. I guess maybe. Yeah, I guess I am. But I just I've never met anybody like her. And I just she's just one of my I just loved loved watching her play. And I don't know that anyone will ever have that. You know, she's Kyle Lowry times 10 in the talent category, but the same grittiness, the same in your face, the same person that her passion sometimes is going to be too much for her teammates and probably even her coach.

I mean, watching the two of them go at it, Gino and Diana, you know, they're both Italian. Her parents spoke Italian. They didn't even speak a lot of English. It just, it was a match made in heaven. So I could go on all day about D I think she's just really tremendous. I sat courtside with my daughter and my daughter was like, I don't know, eight for sparks game. And it was, it was Taurasi. Have you seen her in person, Marcello? Or did you see her at her peak? Yeah. And then we,

we saw her when she came by just the way she carried herself when she walked around. It was unbelievable. I mean, she was so alpha dog. It was unbelievable. And she's dropping F bombs. And my daughter loved it.

She was like, what's going on? Well, cause she played like a guy and everybody used to say, why do you play a guy? And she's like, what's wrong with that? My favorite, the most incredible moment, I still have it etched in my mind. I was in London for the Olympics. They won the gold medal. And I don't know if you guys remember this. You may not.

Gino has trouble with migraines and he couldn't show up for the postgame press conference because he had a terrible migraine. So he's just won a gold medal and he can't do the postgame because he's got this horrible migraine. So Dee's sitting up there by herself and someone just asked her somewhat of an innocuous question about what does it mean to you to win this gold medal with Gino? And she just went into this thing and she was standing, I'll never forget, like she was staring straight ahead and she's like, you know, he's just like, no one has reached inside to my body and ripped out my heart the way this guy has. And, you know, I tell him things I don't tell my best friends. And she's not like gesturing and engaging with you.

She's like straight ahead. And she's like, I tell him, I tell him things I don't tell my parents. And she's crying like the tears are pouring. don't tell my parents. And she's crying. Like the tears are pouring. This is one of the toughest people I've ever seen in my life anywhere. And she's bawling, talking about this coach. And I was just, it was one of the most incredible sports moments I've ever encountered. It was amazing.

And it's too bad that it was the women's gold medal game because no one cared enough to blow it up the way it should have been. It still bothers me. She's the goat. There's a great Cheryl Miller case, though. Oh, well, Cheryl Miller, had she stayed healthy. There's the what-if case of that. Cheryl Miller, believe me, I adore Cheryl Miller. I covered her

my first ever women's Final Four was her freshman year at USC when she won the championship. She said if she won the championship, she was going to do a cartwheel. And she did a cartwheel, and Pat Summitt was like, what the hell? And then she had to play for Pat Summitt after that.

And Pat Summitt's giving her all sorts of crap. And then she finally went into her office and goes, what do we got to do? And she goes, you got to stop doing cartwheels. It was like a great moment. Yeah, Cheryl had a lot of spunk. I love Sheryl. Russillo, is Gino a good sports radio topic? Because he's really polarizing for some reason,

right? Well, he just has no filter whatsoever. And he's awesome. I mean, I've met him a couple times. I've had him on. One of my favorite things he ever did, because it seems to come up every now and then, because you can see when you're watching a women's game there's just this evolvement that i think is has happened at a faster rate because you know men were at a certain point and then when you're starting to see some of the stuff that women are doing you're just like okay you know and then of course it inevitably leads to the talk show thing of like hey is it even ever possible is it ever possible and i remember having gino on He's like, Diana Taurasi is the most badass player

I've ever coached in my entire life. What the hell is she going to do against Dwayne Wade? All right. She's guarding Dwayne Wade. And he's like shooting down that it's just like, look, this is a basketball conversation. It's stupid to even suggest that she's going to play in the NBA and be able to stay in front of Dwayne Wade.

And here's one of the best proponents of women's basketball in recent history, but he has no problem just being like, okay, but if we're just talking straight up basketball, I'm going to set you straight on this bullshit topic and here you go. And I think it's a turnoff at times for people being like, wait a minute, why would he be critical? And he's not saying, I'm not being critical. You're asking me a question, and I've been around basketball my whole life, and I'm just telling you. So unfortunately, it leads to kind of diminishing the product on the female side, which sucks. That's not what anybody's necessarily trying to do. But I think that he would answer the question the way most people would off the air, on the air, that it leads to him having i think unfairly way too many

detractors and i'm just telling you right now i fucking love gino ariama all right yeah so does my dad my dad's right there with you you know it's funny you mentioned how women's basketball is hitting this point where you can see things jumping up a level athletically the step backs and some of the stuff the last few years i'm not saying it's never been there but it's it's across the board now on some of these moves where i think as a younger prickly guy you would go oh you know whatever and now you're like i can't defend i couldn't defend any of this stuff yeah well it was reminiscent of like the elgin stuff this week i think right elgin elgin got some of his due this week for all right this was the first koozie was the

first entertaining basketball player we had el this was the first... Koozie was the first entertaining basketball player we had. Elgin was the first entertaining athletic basketball player we had offensively and did things that people were like, what the fuck is going on? How is this person doing this and completely transformed everything people thought was possible?

He was Dr. J before he was Dr. J. And you know, one thing I would say about Gino though, Ryan, and I think this is one of the things that I hear a lot. And I mean, I did a. J. And, you know, one thing I would say about Gino, though, Ryan, and I think this is one of the things that I hear a lot. And I mean, I did a book with Gino. So I really grew, you know, people used to call the Yukon thing a cult. By the time I was done doing that book, I was like, where do I sign up? Because it's all about discipline and, you know, like fighting for each other. Like like I grew up in Westwood, Massachusetts and our, our high school team didn't lose a league game for like, I don't know,

15 years or something. Jackie, were you the best player on the team? Not even close. Not even close. I didn't even start playing. Jackie's a really good player. No, I didn't even start playing until my junior high school, Ryan. I was afraid to try out for this team.

That's how big it was in our town and in our school. The games were sold out. We were, you know, they would have, uh, remember evening magazine. You guys are all from Boston.

That show. Robin Young did. Oh yeah. We were, we were, we were on evening magazine. Like our, my high school used to call in.

I loved Robin Young. Oh my God. I still love Robin Young. She's great. She did. She dated, you know who she dated? Good trivia question.

Who? Marvin Barnes. Pat Metheny, the great jazz musician. Saw him live. Saw Pat Metheny live. One of the best concerts we've ever been to. Yeah. If I'm not mistaken, Robin Young dated Pat Metheny.

But anyway, my point was, when you get into these situations where your teams are better and everybody's always gunning for you. I think the one mistake that Gino made was that whole back and forth with Pat Summit, because Pat Summit is the gold standard of women's basketball. She just is because of what she did to get it from, you know, to bring it along. And she did it in a certain, she did in a complete opposite way. Gino, Gino's going to be in your face. He's going to challenge you. Pat just did it in a completely different way. And no matter how good Gino was,

and he told me this when I did this book with him, no matter how good he was, he was never going to be Pat summit. And it drives him crazy. And you can see why, because in Gino's mind, he's a much better coach than Pat summit. Yeah. And he's won more championships and everything else,

but no matter how good he was, how much they won this closeness that his team had, which I, I would just think anyone should want that. It's so amazing to be part of a team where, you know, the kids that play 10 years before you and 10 years after that's special. That's special,

right? Celtics have that. Lakers have that. Two teams have that. Tennessee has it actually. Tennessee has it actually Tennessee has it but no matter what there was a whole collection of people that were never gonna Gino was never gonna live up to Pat's summit and I think it drives him crazy and I think it's the one

time in his career where that's something he should have found a way to handle a little better you know that's an interesting point about I think this is what men's college basketball has really lost with the one and done era is that concept of the 10 years before, 10 years after and how the teams connect. I just remember that Duke team where it was like, Grant Hill was the freshman that one year and then he stays and then you pass it off. And it just, there's a connective tissue that I think starting in the late 90s just went away. Yeah, one and done.

Takes care of that for you. And then the coach basically became the connective tissue. But you hear like Kentucky's big on the culture they create, right? And the Knicks are basically trying to recreate the Kentucky culture by taking a lot of their players, doing the same things. But it's really hard to have that if the guys are staying one year, two years, and that's it. They've been there. Anthony Davis spent seven months on campus. How transformative of an experience could that have possibly been for him? So I do miss that. And interestingly, the UConn men had that as well. I mean, you know that, Ryan, those guys, when Jim Calhoun was there, there was that same connective tissue. And I think, you know, Kevin Olley tried to continue it.

And then, you know, now it's just a whole different, it's, I mean, I don't even know what's going on. Well, Calhoun, the thing that was really cool about those guys is I think some programs pretend that everybody's like still part of the family. But those UConn guys take a special pride in kind of being in the middle of nowhere, coming from all over the country. And that Jim, you know, he wasn't the most hands-on coach, but he just trusted you physically, like, hey, you're going to get out there, bust your ass, play defense, but we're going to let you guys run as much as you want and do your thing. And then you think about all the pros they put in,

and those guys came back and really were, I mean, whatever. It's not like every single guy got along, but there was just something kind of special. Like, look, it's not Duke, it's not Kentucky, it's not Kansas, it's not UCLA, it's UConon and stores in the middle of nowhere and they were getting these guys in from all over the place and you know granted i was i was a lot closer to it than some of the other programs um just because i was living there and was friendly with a couple guys that played but i i know that that culture thing is something that everybody, I mean, nothing is to the standard of heat culture,

but everybody tries to have it. Everybody tries to have it. And it's like, you don't get to just print t-shirts and pretend you have it. And both UConn had it. And I think the other thing that's kind of funny about Gino and Jim, and I like both, I've been lucky enough to meet them multiple times,

is they weren't going to summer house. They weren't getting a summer house together anytime soon. And I think that added to it. That was kind of, cause I think down South, um, the men's and women's coach would have pretended they got along a little bit better.

And in the Northeast, because of both of their backgrounds, they were like, let's not pretend we're buddies here. Like, you know, you're from mass and I don't give a shit either and whatever. Yeah.

So it was kind of funny. I always thought it was funny. Neither one of them like to pretend. I mean, Jim Calhoun and Rick Patino hated each other. Northeastern and BU. I mean, they hated each other.

They used to run around the city, the reservoir sometimes. And they, they just run past each other. They wouldn't even say hello. Like that. Those guys really did not like each other. And,

and, and Gino and Jim, what was interesting was Jim was close with a lot of the female players and Gino was close with a lot of the male players. And Howie Dickerman, the assistant coach for UConn, I'm pretty sure he's the godfather to one of Gino's kids. I mean, so there was a lot of cross-pollination between they, regardless of what the two men thought of each other, the programs never let that affect their affection for one another.

No. On both sides of that. It was really cool to be around. Really was. We're still a semi-O'Jalea in the corner with five seconds left for Jackie right now. Who would you take? Well,

Jackie's more physical than, than I had. No, I didn't have that range. Yeah. She would, she would, you know,

I don't know if Daryl morey would like her game but she would she would get in there and mix it up old school like you know that do you know that jack and i line kind of game jack and i played against each other in a celtic media game we did i was like who is this asshole oh no because he was he did what he should do he was very aggressive right he's like if she's gonna play then she's going to play, then she's going to play. And he was like coming down. And I was like, and I was almost like, I should just take a charge on this guy, Justin. Because we didn't know each other that well.

But I have to say by the end, you were the best player on the floor, really, of all the media guys. I mean, I'm not counting Scout. Wow. What a day for you, Russo, though. No, but he was really. Yeah, Scout doesn't count. Scout doesn't count. No, he doesn't.

And Scout was getting mad because Ryan was pulling up, you know, though. No, but he does. Yeah, Scal doesn't count. Scal doesn't count. No, he doesn't. And Scal was getting mad because Ryan was pulling up, you know, hitting a jumper here and there over him, and Scal's like, oh, wait a minute. I'm the pro.

I got to show her. So Scal would come down and, like, knock over me and, like, Heather Walker, who's, like, the PR person for the... Well, by the way, is it bad? Yeah, I thought she played. Heather's a good player.

Yeah, she played. She did, but, like, Scal's going to, like, come at us? Like, it was just ridiculous. I don't think it was... So, well, Jackie's leaving out the best part because people definitely were down on me after that game for one specific play.

And I was just so honored to, I mean, look, whatever, it can sound cheesy, but to get to actually suit up there and run around on the parquet is like something where you go, this is amazing. And let's put it this way. Not a ton was working out for me at that point in my life.

So to get to run up and down inside where the Celtics were playing and because we had the rights of the radio station. So yeah, I took it a little too seriously. And Jackie had, I think, an offensive rebound and a chance for a putback.

And I think the game we were up to or it was tight it was a big so i went after that thing like i mean bismack biombo and in the acb league like when he looked good and i spiked it pretty good and it was hard and people on the baseline i think a couple players were around and they're like jesus dude i didn't mind it i didn't mind it because if i'm gonna play that's the deal man that's the one i didn't like it. I didn't mind it. Because if I'm going to play, that's the deal, man. That's the deal. The one I didn't like was when you came through the lane. I forget who was there.

It wasn't me. It was some poor lame guy. I don't know. Some guy that didn't belong out there. And I'm like, don't do it to him. I could take it. Don't do it to him. I forget who it was.

Yeah, I didn't care. I didn't care. But the thing is, then it ended up getting out on like no one was listening to our radio show back then anyway and then we had you on because the other guys were like we heard that you blocked jack mcball and shot of course you know jackie's a legend so it was partly that and like why are you why are you why are you messing with her i know i gotta clean up the swearing when jackie's here but i just was like hey the game i was like it was a huge possession we were keeping score.

It doesn't bother me. And so Jackie, here's the thing, this is why Jackie's awesome, is that she came on because my co-hosts were like, we gotta have her on. Like, what's wrong with you? People were calling into the show, calling me, like, just like, you're the worst, you're the worst. And Jackie comes on and goes, hey, we're wearing uniforms.

The game counted, as lame as that may sound, and he wanted to make a defensive play. She's like, I would have had way bigger problem with him if he just let me score. And I was like, yeah, it didn't even cross my mind to let anybody score. So I took it too seriously.

I was a loser back then. No, no, you weren't a loser. Because you know what? I just remember saying at the end of the game, like, you won the game for your team. I'm like, yeah, good game. Like, whatever. It's all good.

You know, guys before us and since us have done the same thing, Ryan, everybody goes into that game and you and some guys haven't played in a long time or some like you were playing three, four nights a week and we're totally into it. And everybody like I decided very early on, like there is nothing to prove here. This is not the place to prove anything. You know, it's not a good idea. I was trying to get a 10 day out of it. Yeah, because, you know, I remember Tony Mads played in one of those games and I was kind

of near the end. And Heather's like, please, we got to get someone. I'm like, I'm too old to be playing. I'm not playing regularly anymore. I don't want to get hurt. And Tony Mads came out there and he's running around. He tore his Achilles like on the third play of the game. That's the problem.

If you don't, if you don't run around at all. Go ahead. And I'm like, I'm done. This is it. That was the last game I ever played in. Tony Maz, thank you, Tony. You saved me a torn Achilles. Yeah, you got to be careful with that stuff. I felt like I got out in time.

I'm expecting to tear an Achilles. I'm expecting to tear an Achilles. Are you still playing? Ryan, how old are you? 45, so I was playing until... I'm telling you, I would wrap it up. Yeah. No. I'm telling you.

I'm telling you. I played too long. I had to have fusion surgery on my neck. If I could do it over, I would have stopped six years sooner. There's no way I'm not. I expect to die out there. It's like Rocky Balboa. Rock, don't go out for the 50th.

I got to. It's not worth it. It's just not worth it. If I could do it over, I would stop a little bit sooner and not have the misery I had for three years, which is now over, thankfully, but still. Well, this was an unexpected conclusion

to our trade deadline podcast, but I really had a good time. Rosillo, it was a blast as always. Jackie, fantastic stuff. What's your next piece? Can you tell us yet or no? I'm not 100% sure. I'm bandying a couple things about.

All right. Then don't spoil it then. Yeah. Not sure yet. I'll get back to you guys. Check out Jackie's Jamal Murray piece, which I think went up last week. That was really good. I felt dumb about saying they should have traded him for Harden.

How about that Kobe stuff? Wasn't that cool? Kobe? Yeah. That that cool? Kobe? Yeah. That was cool. That was my favorite part. That's what we call a tease. If you want to know what I'm talking about,

go read the piece because I'm not telling you. All right. Check out Rosilla's podcast. Check out Jackie on all the ESPN platforms. And you can listen to the other three parts of this podcast as well. We put up four parts. This is part four. Thanks for listening.

We'll see you not coming back until Monday on this podcast. So I'll see you on Monday. On the wayside On the first side of the road Saying I don't have to ever