The Bill Simmons Podcast - NBA Trouble Teams, the WR Mini-Pyramid, and the Knicks Can’t Catch a Break With Howard Beck, Sean Fennessey, and Steve Ceruti

Episode Date: April 5, 2024

The Ringer's Bill Simmons runs through some NBA and NFL topics, including three NBA teams in trouble, the Jets, and the Stefon Diggs trade, before sharing his NFL WR mini-pyramid with Steve Ceruti (2:24). Then, Bill is joined by Sean Fennessey and Howard Beck to do a Knicks check-in after hearing the news that Julius Randle's injury will keep him out for the rest of the season (37:12). Finally, Howard and Bill hit some other NBA topics, including the volatile Suns, Nikola Jokic's next MVP, NBA awards ideas, and more (1:08:27). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Howard Beck, Sean Fennessey, and Steve Ceruti Producer: Kyle Crichton The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, three NBA teams in trouble. Surprisingly, the Knicks are not one of them. Next. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. You know me, I can't go a day without sports. I really can't. And now Monday nights are all about hockey. That's right.

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or visit rg-help.com. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. We have an awesome four-day college basketball extravaganza starting Friday night with the women's final four. Tate Frazier covering all of it on one shiny podcast with J. Kyle Mann. Niffy Kyle sneaks in there as well. So I hope you're checking out that podcast. Hope you're checking out the Ringer Wrestling Show because we have a two-day WrestleMania this weekend as well. Yeah, that's happening too. So it is an awesome weekend.

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Michael Douglas, Kathleen Turner. One of the great marriage movies. One of the great marriage gone wrong movies of the great marriage gone wrong movies. Maybe the marriage gone wrong movie. Anyway, that is happening Monday night. Eventually they'll be able to watch it on youtube.com slash Bill Simmons, where I post stuff from the rewatchables from this podcast, shorter videos, longer videos, some walk and talks, and you can check it out. Okay. Coming up, I'm going to do something at the top about three NBA teams in trouble

plus the Diggs trade and what it means, not just for Buffalo, but for the wide receiver mini pyramid. So we're going to hit that at the top. And then I want to talk about the Knicks because Julius Randle got knocked out for the season officially today,

although they did win after we taped the segment that we did with Howard Beck and Sean Fennessy and then the Knicks won. So maybe we jinxed a win out of it, but we want to see what's going on at the Knicks. Where is this going long-term? And then Sean left and Howard stayed and we talked about a bunch of NBA stuff. So that's the podcast tonight. It's a good one. First, our friends from ProJet. All right, I'm going to open up a six-pack here on Thursday night.

We're going to do three basketball and three football. We'll start with basketball. I noticed tonight there were some really good NBA games tonight. I was watching all of them at the same time, and I realized that there are three NBA teams that are in trouble as we head into the final 10 days of the season. And ironically, all of them played tonight. First one, man, I hesitate doing this. I know what it means.

As you know, nobody is more afraid of the Michael Myers Miami Heat than I am. They're hitting, are we sure they're good territory for me? Especially watching tonight, a game that felt super winnable for them against Philly, against they're still trying to work and beat in. And it just felt like one of those games Miami was going to steal in the last two minutes. You're like, there they go again. They did it.

Well, they didn't steal it. They're eight and eight in their last 16. They're 12th in net rating. If you look at some of their offensive stats, the offense is the thing I really want to hit here because they're 19th in three points made, three pointers made. They're 13 and free throw attempts. They're 20th and assist per game. They're 21st and offensive rating. They're 24th and rebounding. There's just a lot of evidence now in full season that this team is not very good offensively.

And then you look at Butler who last year he had 24 games where he scored more than 25 points. This year he has 13 games where he scored more than 25 points out of 53. He's just not as explosive as he was in previous years. And the thing that we've learned with Miami is like, oh, they're playing possum. Don't trust them. They have this other gear. They have this on-off button. I'm not really sure what the on-off button is for them. Because first of all, they're 18 and 25 now against above 500 teams, which is the worst record of anyone in the top eight in either conference. And if you just look at the talent they have, Bam, Butler, Duncan Robinson, Rozier, Caleb Barton, Love, Highsmith, Jovich, and then Hero when he comes back.

All of a sudden, there's an incredible amount of pressure on Hero to be the three-point shooter slash score creator that this team really kind of desperately needs, but we haven't seen him forever. And they're just going to throw him back right before the playoffs start. I don't know. I don't think they're in a great spot, especially like if they fall into that seven, eight and they have to play Philadelphia. And then if they end up in the one, eight versus Boston potentially, and they'll say, Oh, we played great against Boston. This is a different Boston

team. They have way more size than they did in previous years. They've been, you know, statistically one of the seven or eight best regular season teams of all time. And I just wonder if Miami is coasting here on reputation. We see this happen in football all the time where there's this football team. We're like, oh no, no, they've done every year they're here. We did this last year with the Chiefs, right? And they're just like, oh no, no, we're waiting the infrastructure, the infrastructure. The difference is the Heat have never won a title and they've made the finals twice in four years. And maybe that's the ceiling of this group. I'm still afraid of

them. I still feel like they're the Michael Myers Heat, but sometimes you are who you are and the league is really good now. And maybe the version of the Heat from the last few years, when you put them in this year's league, they don't have that extra step they can go up. Rozier, probably better than last year's guards. Hero, a wrinkle they didn't have in the playoffs. But man, you go back, just go back on basketball reference and just look at Jimmy's games against Milwaukee. And maybe that was just a black swan event. So anyway, Miami, I think they're in a little bit of trouble. I think

we can officially say it. And now I know that I'm going to be, have my voice cut into all kinds of hype videos for Miami. Great. Next team, Sacramento. I am way more sure about this. Sacramento actually, if you go to the 18 playoff teams, they have to be probably closer to the Chicago-Atlanta level than anybody else. They lost Herter for the year, who wasn't even playing that good, but is at least somebody that they know you can trust a little bit in big games.

They lost Malik Monk at least through round one, and this is the one you really feel when you watch them. They're basically Fox and Sabonis and a bunch of guys. There's nobody special on this team other than those two. And if you go through the team that they have now, they're three through nine guys, are in the running for worst three for nine crew out of anybody who's going to be in the playoffs.

Post all-star rate in their 25th, it looks like they're going to fall to the nine seed, which would put them against their nemesis, Golden State, the team that they haven't been able to beat for a million years. By the way, this is a huge break for Golden State. Golden State gets pushed by Houston. They fight it off. They beat them tonight. They killed them. So they finally killed that little demon that was over their shoulder. And now they're going to play 9-10 and they thought it was going to be the Lakers, but the Lakers are now moving up the ladder. And thank God,

because I'm going to hit my FanDuel boost for the fourth straight time, dating back to 2022 in football and basketball. Thank you. Congratulations to me. But it's going to be Golden State, Sacramento. And then the hope for them would be that Los Angeles would beat New Orleans. And the path to Golden State to actually make the playoffs would be, can we win in Sacramento and can we win in New Orleans? The way that team's playing with how Wiggins has come back and all of a sudden looks invigorated again with the new rules that I think have really helped Draymond, there's no question. Draymond has been unleashed with the new rules.

It's like if they put hitting over the middle back in the NFL, there'd be certain safeties that would be really helped. The question for me is, can they get Steph fresh for those two playing games? And they're playing Dallas on Friday night. We'll see. They have such a big lead now with the 10 seed. Maybe they can rest Steph a couple times before they get to the playing games, but how much can they get from him? Anyway, I think Sacramento is the worst West team out of the 10. And if it was them versus Houston for the 10 seed, I don't even know who I would take in that one. I think I would, Sacramento is a cross off to me. So sorry, I'm going to unlight the beam. And then my third team that's in trouble just actually had a big win tonight against Denver at home, which if you

really unpeeled it, it was a nice win, but I wouldn't be telling my grandkids about it, the Clippers. Before tonight, before they beat Denver by two, they were 13 and 13 in their last 26 games. They were 19th in net rating, minus 2.1, 28th in defensive rating over that time. And if you've listened to any basketball podcast over the last couple of weeks, everybody's been talking about the same thing. What the hell happened in this team? Are they packing in?

They showed Ty Lue. Ty Lue did an interview today and I swear his hair has turned white. Obama second term style just over the last two months. But they stopped playing defense for just long, long stretches of the post-All-Star break. Today they were actually flying around a little bit, especially in the fourth quarter. But Harden has not been the same

with the new rules. He's really not been the same in the last couple months. Eye test-wise, it's all the James Harden stuff you worried about when they made the trade. I'm the guy who did the YouTube clip called the Clippers are dumb after they traded for James Harden. And then I felt like an idiot because they were probably the third best team in the league for about six weeks there. But they fall back to the pack. And I know, again, I get it.

They won tonight. They barely beat Denver without Jamal Murray. There was multiple, multiple calls that went against the Nuggets to the point that their coach was like, I know this is a national TV game. I know we're fighting for a number one seed, but I'm going to get kicked out anyway because these referees are so bad. So that happened. Aaron Gordon, right when the Nuggets, it felt like they were going to tie the game. He does a Eurostep and just collapses and falls out of bounds. They missed free throws. Zubats hit six straight free throws out of nowhere. The Clippers, every time it felt

like they were going to get a dagger shot, they didn't get it. And the Nuggets had the ball at the end. Their coach forgets to call a timeout. They lose three seconds. Jokic misses a buzzer beater at the end of the game. It was one of those we pulled it out wins for the Clippers, but it didn't really change how I feel about where they are. And where

they are is here. I think they're going to be the five seed. Right now, they have a game and a half lead over Dallas with six games to play. But Dallas is on an absolute tear. And they're playing Golden State on Friday. My guess is Golden State's going to rest some guys because they have the 10 seed pretty much locked up at this point.

So it's going to be Dallas versus the Clippers. And the way Luka's playing versus the way the Clippers are playing, Luka's definitely gone up and he's already been great, but he's now the second best player in the league. And I just don't see the Clippers beating them in a series, the way they're playing, the way they'reterm, I just don't like what I've seen in the last two months. They've looked lethargic to me. I don't love their home court advantage to begin with, and their arrow is pointing down. So I would have them as my third team that's in trouble. And if it's going to be Clippers-Dallas in the 4-5 with the winner getting Denver, Denver's going to be Clippers-Dallas in the four or five with the winner getting Denver,

Denver's going to be rooting for the Clippers. I know the Clippers beat them tonight, but I think Denver's going to be rooting to see them because I think that is a nice matchup for them when Murray comes back. Anyway, those are my three. Maybe I'm still in it with my The Clippers Are Dumb YouTube clip. I was like at one point, probably in February, like 10 to one odds that was going to make me look like a fool. But now it's probably down to like plus 140 on a Fandle. Anyway, we're going to take a quick break

and then come back with the NFL part of the six pack right after this. Fandles putting the ball on your court for the rest of the NBA season. Right now, new customers get $200 in bonus bets with any winning $5 bet. That is $200 if your bet wins. For instance, maybe you decided

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$10 first deposit required. Bonus issued as dominant drawable bonus bets that expire seven days after receipt. See terms at sportsbook.fandle.com. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us.

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my number four in the six pack, Robert Sala. I mentioned this the other day in a pod and I just wanted to dive into this for a second because the Jets made that Hassan Redick trade, and they're all in. But they're not all in, because Robert Sala is still their head coach. I went and I looked this up. As you know, I called him seven-kid Sala during the season because he has seven kids, and I wouldn't trust somebody with seven kids to, I don't know, I'm trying to think how

high of a level I'd want to go in sports. Could you do junior college? Did three? I don't know. I just, seven kids is a lot. I could barely handle two. Anyway, they're pot committed. They're all in. Robert Sala is 18 and 33 in his career. He's got a 353 winning percentage. And I said to myself, that seems low. Looked it up on Pro Football Reference. There are 201 coaches that qualified that had to have coached at least 50 games and qualified from a win percentage standpoint to pop up on whatever thing I searched. Robert Sala is 182. There's only 19 coaches in the history of the league with a lower winning percentage than him. I'm just going to read you the names.

You tell me if any of them sound awesome. Dan Henning. Dennis Allen, the Saints coach. Yeah. Yeah, you watched the Saints the last couple years. Not great. John McKay, the only person in this group to win playoff games. Mike Nolan, the guy in the Niners.

He tried to bring back the suits and they were like, cool, you're fired. Bill McPeak, can't remember him. Harlan Svar, who coached for seven years. I honestly don't know who that was. Daryl Rogers, who coached in the 80s. He was terrible. Marion Campbell. Joe Bugle, 24 and 56. Dave McGinnis, Pat Shermer, Jimmy Phelan, the immortal David Shula, Don Shula's son. This is my favorite. Usually we only have nepotism

with NFL owners and NFL GMs. We actually had it with an NFL coach, David Shula, and he finished 14, 19 and 52. Gus Bradley, Steve Spagnuolo is the third worst head coach of all time. Over 50 games, 11 and 41. And then it gets really great. Number 200, Hugh Jackson. He was 11 and 44 with one tie, a 0.205 winning percentage. And then last but not least, Burt Bell, who in the late 30s and early 40s went 10, 46, and two. So that's the company Robert Saul is in right now. And I bring this up because if you're in win now mode, just bring in Mike Vrabel right now. You're in win now mode. You just traded your second round pick in a year to get a pass rusher. You've got Rodgers. You traded picks for him. You have the 10th pick in the draft here. Is there a person

on the earth who doesn't think Mike Vrabel is a better coach than Robert Sala? Is there a person on the earth? Does he exist? So if you're going to win now, why not get the best possible coach? I'm not saying they should hire Belichick, although that wouldn't be a bad idea either, but I just can't believe they're going to be win now, win now, win now. Oh, and here's Robert Sala, our head coach. Oh, and here's Nat Hackett, our offensive coordinator. Win now? No thanks. All right, the Diggs trade. So I did a lot of stuff on this. This is the classic, it's time for you to go trade, where they didn't care that his dead cap for this year was 31 million, even though his figure would have been 34.3. So they basically saved 3.3 million on the cap just to get rid of

them. They got a second round pick in a year. They had to put in a couple lower round picks in the trade. And they do the trade and everybody immediately thinks they're way worse. And their odds on FanDuel for the AFCs was plus 115, jumped to plus 160 because they traded Diggs. And, you know, I watch football all the time. I watch it every Sunday. I talk about it with Sal on Sundays. I talk about it on this podcast on Tuesdays and Thursdays. I didn't think Diggs was very good last year.

And in fact, I went and looked it up in the last eight regular season games, 37 catches for 349 yards in eight games. So he didn't even average 45 yards a game. One TD over his last eight regular season games in the playoffs, 10 catches for 73 yards. That's pretty good for one game. Unfortunately, that was two playoff games, no touchdowns. And I just don't think he was impactful at all. And what was really happening was in the second half of the season, the team kind of moved over to James Cook and he

became one of the three or four best running backs in the league. And all of a sudden it was Kincaid and James Cook and, you know, Allen was spreading around, Allen using his legs, and they changed their identity a little bit, and they didn't really miss Diggs that much, although I think they missed him a little bit in the KC game. So when I see trades like this and I see the reaction, and the initial reaction is, oh my God, they traded Stefan Diggs, they're going to be way worse.

He is, who are Josh Allen's weapons? It's like, are they going to be way worse. Who are Josh Allen's weapons? It's like, are they going to be worse? Usually I'm on the other side with Buffalo where I'm always like, wait, I don't think they're as good as people are talking about. Now, Buffalo's defense is worse. They lost some guys. They lost guys all over the place. Their offense is going to be a little more bullpen by committee-ish, a little chiefs ish, but I still really like cook and I still really like Kincaid. And I'm just not sure that digs was as good as people seem to think he was his last six playoff games over three years. He 27 catches for 289 yards.

This is six games over three years, zero touchdowns. He gets mentioned and people seem to think he's like a Tyreek or like a C.D. Lamb, and he's just not. I don't see it. Fine. If you're Houston, you got Stroud on a rookie deal.

Now you have three above average receivers. Makes total sense. You're kind of all in for this year and next year. And I didn't think they gave up a ton. You're either getting him or T Higgins, but for Buffalo, I'm just not ready to cross off Buffalo yet,

especially Miami is going to be worse. And they're about to do the all time. Oh no contract with Tua. The Jets, we just talked about Sala Rogers coming off a torn Achilles. They're the Jets. And then the Pats clearly are doing nothing this year. So to me, the division still runs through Josh Allen and Buffalo,

which leads me to my wide receiver pyramid. I was trying to figure out, in my head, Diggs was not a top 15 receiver anymore, but I wanted to lay it out. And I've been doing these mini pyramids. I did one on Sunday with Worst Owners with Priscilla. I did one on Monday on the rewatchables, prison movies. That was a fun one. So my mini pyramid for this one, I'm going to bring in Steve Cerruti. And if you're watching this on YouTube, you notice headphones magically popped on my head, right? As I said, I'm going to bring in Steve Cerruti. I sent you my wide receiver mini pyramid and the exercise was, where's Diggs on this? I had Jefferson. If we're going to go top level is one player, second level is two players, third level is

three players and on. It's supposed to look like a pyramid. I had Justin Jefferson as my number one receiver. I had him at the top of the pyramid. Some people, I floated this to a bunch of different people and some people are like, why not Tyreek? And I do think Tyreek's the most impactful receiver we have, but he had a couple of weird games last year where he was hurt, then he'd come back, then he'd go out again, then he'd come back. And it's like,

I just don't know what I'm getting from that guy sometimes. Whereas Jefferson, I just think if he's on the field and he has a decent QB, he's putting up giant numbers. Who would you have put first? Jefferson. It's the injury thing with Tyreek. And yeah, Tyreek's probably the scariest weapon in the league. But if you're just saying fantasy draft, I could have one receiver

to pair with my young quarterback or whatever quarterback I have to make him better. Jefferson just does everything. And he was a little dinged up this year. So maybe that takes some shine off of him. But I just think Jefferson's like the prototype of what you're looking for, the position. Whereas Tyreek is more of a generational like, oh my God, what do I do with this guy? And you have to fit him into whatever you're doing. And obviously the two teams that he's been on have done that.

But to me, Jefferson, I'm taking him on. And Tyreek's definitely too. Jefferson's also way younger. Tyreek, it's like, how many more years at this level are we going to get from him? I have Tyreek as two. So the second level, Jefferson top level, Tyreek and CeeDee Lamb. I think it's those three guys in some order as the top three. CeeDee Lamb to me is like the guaranteed number three.

You're good with that, right? I am. I try to talk myself into it, I love Jamar Chase. And it was a weird season just because, you know, of the quarter Burrows out. And he still put up decent numbers with, you know, with Browning. But Lamb had such a stupid season. Like he had the numbers he put up and he was just always wide open

for the Cowboys that I think it surprised me a little bit. Like I always thought he was really good, but he was genuinely an elite top, you know, you have him third here. So I don't have an issue with that. I think thought he was really good, but he was genuinely an elite top third here. I don't have an issue with that. I think different seasons, you can say, yeah, maybe Jamar Chase comes back next year and is better, but I have no issue with Lamb at three. Third level. Chase number four.

St. Brown. And then I put Devontae Adams as the third guy, so the sixth guy overall in this third level because even though I didn't love the year he had last year, I think his quarterback situation the last couple years has been abysmal. And I still wonder, just give that guy a decent quarterback, what kind of stats could he put up?

So to me, it's Chase St. Brown and Devontae Adams, 4, 5, 6 here. Yeah, St. Brown is, again, like over the middle, all the stuff that he does for golf. He's just like the perfect safety blanket for a guy, for a quarterback. You have A.J. Brown in the next tier just down.

I actually, I would put A.J. Brown in this tier. I know he, like... So you'd put him over Adams? I thought about it. I switched it back and forth. Would you put him over Adams or St. Brown?

I think he and St. Brown are like the same guy. I think they're both awesome. So like I don't know that I'd want to rank one above.

Like yes, St. Brown had a better year last year. Team did better. Spotlight was a bit more but like and AJ Brown still had a good year last year

but not his greatest year. And so maybe that's you're docking him a little bit there. But I just I just think those guys are so close and I have

to put them right next to each other. If I have to knock one guy down. It's a pyramid. I can't put four guys on level close that I have to put them right next to each other. If I have to knock one guy down... It's a pyramid. I can't put four guys in level three. I can only put three. You're asking me to put Devonta Adams.

You might talk me into this. I think I would. So I put A.J. Brown seventh as the first guy in the fourth level just because of some of the whispers about the chemistry on that team last year. Something unseemly about whether he wanted the ball all the time, or there was some Diva stuff with him that I didn't know how to process. So that was it. I think talent-wise is in the top five.

You can tell me, we can flip them. Anyway, he's the first guy in this. Mike Evans. I have Puka. We can argue about that in a second. Garrett Wilson and Ayuk. So no Debo on this fourth level. Puka's probably the one because he's only done it for one year, but I think, first of all, he was incredible in the playoff game, which really matters to me. But also his blocking's unbelievable. He's probably the best blocker of all of these dudes, except maybe Debo. And I don't know.

That pushed it over the top. Garrett Wilson, we've never seen with a good quarterback, and I feel like he's going to be awesome at some point. You're shaking your head. No, I love him. And it's funny.

When you put this ranking together, you have to kind of grade on a curve. Guys who have really good quarterback play versus guys who play with duds. And he's had zero help throughout his entire career. And I still watch Jets games, and he just stands out of the tape. The guy is just an insane athlete, catches everything,

and just does the most with the absolute least. Next year, if Rodgers is healthy, I think there's a chance that Gary Wilson will be closer to five than he is ten. I think he's that talented and that good. Obviously, you can't put him there now. I mean, there's a couple guys lower on the list that we'll get to in a second. But some of the guys that just don't have quarterback play,

it's hard to judge them because their stats aren't going to be the same. But if you put them on a Chiefs team, a Rams team, a Lions team, I think they'd probably put up the same or maybe better stats than some of the guys we have here. Yeah, so Larry Fitzgerald, Cora Larry. Like that five years when Larry Fitzgerald, Cora Larry. Like that five years

when Larry Fitzgerald just had no quarterbacks at all and we just felt bad for him every year. But you knew he was still awesome, but the stats didn't reflect it. Kevin Cobb, yeah. You could have talked me

into Garrett Wilson in the sixth spot instead of Devontae Adams because I think he's that talented. But the fact that he's never done it, I think he had to get docked on that. So then the other big, the big controversial one for me, just trying to figure this out was putting IU over Debo.

Cause I think most people feel like Debo is a better player, but for me, there's a durability piece with Debo. Mainly not his fault. Cause the way the Niners use him, he just gets crushed like five times a season. But I really value IU. Like when his name was getting floated around as a possible trade guy, and maybe they can't afford him. And maybe they're going to do to him what they did with, uh, with Buckner that when they traded Buckner and they drafted his replacement, basically, maybe they'll do that way. I, I immediately was like, wow, the Patriots could get IU for like their high second round pick. I would do that in five seconds because I think that guy's awesome.

Debo, I wonder, is there a Marcus Smart piece to him where the way his style of play, his body's going to start breaking down over the next couple years? I'd rather have Ayuk. Yeah, could you? I mean, I'm sure there's some sort of cap that you'd have to take on this,

but if you're saying I could have one guy going forward, I mean, Ayuk is the better receiver. That's just the way it is. And Debo, the way that his body is, can you kind of maybe sucker somebody into trading for him? I still like Debo. I'd want him on my team.

But he's one of those kids. It's like the heat. It's like Jimmy Butler. Just get me to the playoffs and hopefully you're healthy and you're fine. I don't really care about the record season with Debo at all anymore. So if that's what you're doing, that's fine. Ayuk is a surprising guy guy because I don't, he's not flashy, but he just, he runs great routes and he's always kind of open.

That's the thing, he's always open, like twice a game where you're like, man, he got open again. How'd he do it? But do you ever worry about like, this is where I get into the scheme stuff again, where you go, all right, yeah, he plays for the Shanahan offense though. And like, you know, if you put him on the Panthers, like how awesome, you know, and he's got Bryce Young throwing to him,

do we still have him in the fourth tier here? I don't know. I don't think he's incredibly talented. I just think he's a really, really solid receiver. Well, that's why I wonder if they have a receiver they love either at the end of the first round or beginning of the second round,

would they say, yeah, instead of paying Ayuk, we can get a speed guy here that we really like and we go. Anyway, so that's the fourth group. So now we're through 11 receivers. Six, yeah, 11. So this last group is six, which will bring us to 17 total. Debo. Cup, I didn't have initially. And then a couple of the... I sent this to the Ringer draft show guys and they were like, Cup's got to be on. I was like, well, Cup?

Are we getting Cup ever again? It's like, well, he's hurt last year. I just don't... Are we getting him again? So I'm just on reputation alone. Probably not. And does it make you feel weird? All the Puka just came in rookie year and basically did exactly what Cooper Cup did for three, four years?

Right. With better barking? Yeah. Again, I don't want to take it because the scheme thing is hard. Like, McVay is an incredible guy, and I'm not taking anything away from Puka either, but that's clearly a role to find out for those guys, and they're very good, but I don't know if that takes any shine off of Cooper Cup, plus the health and the age thing.

I don't know. I think it's fine to have him there. I wouldn't cry if he wasn't on the tier list, though. Nico Collins I had to put on because I think that guy's just a stud. And out of anybody on this last level, I think he's the guy with a chance to jump maybe two levels by the time the end of next season happens. Devonta Smith, who is one of those guys you just don't understand why he's not one of the five best receivers in the leagues with some of the catches he makes weird team weird situation not not he's one of those rare ones where it's like i'd actually rather see him on a bad team just having the ball thrown to him all the time you're nodding i i kind of disagree oh okay i think he and like jaylen waddle like i think i'd probably

have jaylen waddle in a similar ballpark that I would Devonta. So you would bump Devonta? I think once you get into this last tier, you know, so you haven't named the entire thing. Oh yeah, let me... A lot of these... Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead, yeah.

So I had Debo Cup, Nico Collins. I feel good about all those three. Devonta Smith, DJ Moore, and last but not least, Stefan Diggs, which was the whole point of this exercise. So he squeaked in in the last spot and I was switching him out, putting him back in, switching him out, and I ended up keeping him 17th. But from a salary cap standpoint, there's nine other guys I'd rather have. But if you're just talking about pure talent, throwing salaries aside, I think he's

probably still there, but I also think this is probably the last year he's there. Probably. So then you don't have Keenan Allen in this. As I mentioned, you don't have Waddle. Higgins is out. Who else are we looking at? Amari Cooper

and Tank Dell were the toughest cuts for me. Because Tank Dell got hurt, and I feel like if he didn't get hurt, I don't know what happens to him in a good way down the stretch. Collins ended up getting a lot of the shine because Dell was out. But I thought Dell was awesome. bad quarterback all-star and he still puts up these stupid stats and you know last year you're watching it you know i think he was like 16 yards or something like that and you know playing with uh you know justin fields who was inconsistent at best i i you could actually talk me into him being higher on this list i gotta i don't know like he's not one of those guys that jumps off the screen at you either but i'm just like he's all if he's always put being productive with these terrible quarterback situations doesn't that tell you everything you need to know about how good this guy is as a wide receiver? It's kind of like Keenan Allen, but with bad quarterback play. So it sounds like we like 15 for sure.

And then Devonta and Diggs are kind of at the tail end of this list. And then it becomes preference. If you're talking about who I think is going to bump some of these guys during the 24 season, I would definitely bet on Zay Flowers. I would definitely bet on Addison on the Vikings and I bet on Dell on Houston would be my three candidates. The problem with Addison is like, who's their quarterback? He might just be a victim. Are you kidding? It's going to be the next Tom Brady, JJ McCarthy. When they trade up to the Chargers, they're going to trade 11 and 23 in a first to move up six spots. That's my prediction.

And Higgins is another interesting one. If he ends up on, I don't know, the Pats, Panther, whatever team wants to trade for him, and he's playing with a bad quarterback or a rookie quarterback, are we as excited about him as we were with Joe Burrow?

I like him, but I don't know. I like T. Higgins, but he's one of those guys when you actually look at his stats, it doesn't kind of match what's in your head with either fantasy or real life. He's never had 1,100 yards in a season. He's never had more than seven touchdowns in a season.

He's good, but I'm also like, you have Chase on the other side. You should have good stats. You have Burrow as your quarterback for most of that time. So I'd be interested to see. Well, and what happens that like he goes to the Patriots and now he's the number one, the defense is moving toward him and Jacoby Brissett is his quarterback.

What kind of stats are you putting up? The other interesting thing about the mini pyramid here, we have Marvin Harrison. We have Tyreek Hill 2.0 coming out of LSU. And we have Thomas also coming out of LSU. And all three of those guys, I think are better assets than some of the guys we've mentioned.

I don't know if any of them are ready to vault into the mini pyramid right away. Do you think, if you had to bet on one, who would you bet on? Well, the disrespect to Roma Dunze, who I think is my favorite receiver in this draft. Everybody likes neighbors. My bad. Yeah, no.

Everybody likes neighbors because he's just a track star and he's like Tyreek Hill, light, essentially. Harrison, he's going to walk in from day one being a top, probably definitely 20, 15 receiver. The question with him is just like the ceiling. Is he ever going to be Jefferson or Lamb to be, is he ever going to be

Jefferson or Lamb or Chase? Or is he just going to be like, you know, I don't know, Mike Evans, for example, which is fine. Like Mike Evans is great. He's obviously in your tier list. He's really good,

but he's not, I don't know, he's not the flashiest player and I don't think he'd ever put him in like the top five receivers. So that's the question. But I love Rome. Rome is 6'3". He's built like a tank.

He, you know, his route running could work on a little bit, but he's great with the ball after the catch. built like a tank. He, you know, his route running could work on a little bit, but he's great with the ball after the catch. I think that guy at Washington, you know, the weapons at Washington, you could argue,

are better than some of the NFL teams. I mean, probably better than your past last year. So, you know, that's one of the Michael Penix. That's one of the knocks against Michael Penix is like, did he actually have

where the weapons kind of the deal? I don't know that it's necessarily true, but I would say, you know, Harrison's going to be a great player. You know, neighbors depends on the team, but I like him. And I think Rome, wherever he goes, I think he's being mocked to the Giants at a lot of places.

He would step in from day one and be obviously their number one receiver. It's just like, who's throwing the ball? Again, the question we've been asking so far. So I have Diggs in this mini pyramid as the last guy, 17th overall. And I don't feel in my head that he's the 17th best receiver asset when you lay all this stuff out. We'll see how he does on Houston. Again, it scares me that Buffalo's like, you need to go.

That's never good. You always have to look at it from, like in my AL Keeper League, my baseball league, the guy who's won for four straight years, Mike Mendelsohn, like two weeks before the draft, he's like, hey, does anybody want Astori Ruiz, the A's speedster outfielder? We're like, wow, you owe me $18. Why are you trading him? He's like, anybody want him?

So somebody trades for him and he gets sent down four days into the season. We're like, what did Mike know? And I feel the same way with Buffalo. Insider trading. Yeah, with Buffalo, they're like, does anybody wants to find Diggs? Even though we're taking

a huge cap hit? It's just, it's suspicious. It is. I mean, clearly, you know, his,

what is his brother's tweeting about how much he hates it there? He's, he's questioning whether or not, you know, Josh Allen's actually going to be good without him, which I think,

you know, you could argue that Josh Allen last year was, was better when they stopped throwing Diggs the ball. I mean, 13 straight games without a hundred yards.

He had drops in the playoffs. Like, I don't think he's terrible, but I think getting a second round pick for him is pretty... My first reaction to this was, wow, a second round pick is really high for a guy who's 30 and doesn't want to be there

and is kind of, you know, has argued his way out of two different places. I don't know if you ever saw this. Like, it was a couple of years ago. It was actually back when he was on the Vikings. Like, there was some, like, social media thing where one of the social media managers asked a bunch of different players, like, hey, who's the guy's the thing, you know, from the Vikings days. Like, I don't know. There's just something there. But the thing is,

he'll probably be on his best behavior because he's going to be an awesome situation in Houston. He's going to get a ton of balls his way. And, you know, maybe he's happy. But I thought it was weird that they basically voided the last part of his contract. And he's essentially just now in a one-year deal. Pretty strange.

For a second round pick. That's a lot. Thanks for doing the wide receiver mini pyramid with me. Sorry about all the pressure on your Orlando Magic, by the way, now that Randall's out for the year. We're with me sorry about uh sorry about all the pressure on your orlando magic by the way now that randall's out for the year we're gonna talk about the knicks we're talking about the knicks next with fennessey and beck this episode is brought to you by movember the mustache is back with a vengeance look at travis kelsey before he rocked that super bowl ring he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the

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Learn more at sunnybrook.ca slash special. All right, we're taping this part before Knicks Kings on Thursday night, the New York Knicks. In one way, it's a sad story because Julius Randle has been ruled out out for the year. On the other hand, a lot of good things have happened with the Knicks. They have shed the loser of the East,

the sad sack of the New York sports scene. Some things have been shed. Sean Fennessey is here. Howard Beck is here. Fennessey, where are you now mentally? Just walk us through what you're thinking. Where are you? Well, I'm sure you invited me here to say,

why can't we have nice things? New York is cursed. Why are we so screwed? And so I'm happy to say, why can't we have nice things? You know, why are we so screwed? I don't, I genuinely don't know. I mean, somebody reminded me of this

in a New York sports text chain that I'm on, which you can imagine is one of the most cursed places imaginable. Oh my God, that's going to be the saddest chain on the earth. It's very painful. Is there a psychiatrist on the chain? Yeah, is there a doctor?

Is Dr. Melfi on that chain? This is just a direct link to hell. It's like Satan is overseas. He started the chat and I don't know if it was Satan or someone else in the chat said every time someone or something comes along in this sphere of fandom that we have

invariably it gets scuttled. You know, think of Aaron Rodgers going down four plays into the season. Think of Brees Hall the season before that for the Jets getting injured in the first five games of the year. You know, for the Knicks, it was this very obvious thing where we got this very little, very brief snapshot

of what this team with Julius Randle, Jalen Brunson, OG Ananobi, Josh Hart, Mitchell Robinson, Isaiah Hartenstein, and Dante DiVincenzo could be. And we saw it for two games, three games,

after the OG acquisition. And it kind of looked like maybe a championship contending team. And it's easy to say that because it's a small sample size. We don't really know what they were. But I remember I was watching the game when Randall got hurt and dislocated his shoulder. And you could tell immediately that it was a very bad injury. And it feels like something has been ripped away from us and now

all of a sudden we're in what if territory with the Knicks which I guess is better than what never right it could be worse well you've had seven postseason appearances since the 2000 finals and you've made the second round twice so even the hope I guess Howard like

the bet if you're going to go spin a positive glass half full, they made a lot of good moves that worked. DiFincenzo, good signing. Jalen Brunson, the best signing of the decade. Isaiah Hartenstein, probably the best bargain free agent signing of the last couple of years. They got him for under 10 million a year. The Josh Hart trade was good. The Ananobi trade on paper, we can talk about his health stuff in a little bit, but that was a good move. For the most part,

it looks like a train heading in the right direction. They didn't panic. They didn't do the, oh my God, where the Matt Ishby, a new owner syndrome move. They still have all their picks. The Celtics were probably winning the East,

no matter what happened with the talent they have, unless somebody gets hurt in the Celtics. So this probably wasn't there anyway. And they're still positioned for a whole bunch of good things. I would say this is positive. You're going to these games in New York. Does it feel positive there? What's the vibe? Haven't been in a couple of weeks. We'll be heading there when we finish up here today to see them play the Kings. But listen, the vibes, and Sean can correct me from the Knicks fan perspective if I'm wrong, I think the vibes are still generally positive. And even the Randall news today, you kind of knew this was coming. Like you could kind of see this coming. I don't know that anybody really expected he was going

to be back. Will Ananobi be back for the playoffs? We'll see. But I think given everything that the Knicks as a franchise have been through and frankly put themselves through and that Knicks fans have been put through, I think you cannot look at this through any lens other than a positive one because the injuries are the injuries. That's going to happen no matter what you do. I think as a baseline, anything that Knicks fans could truly ask for was just operate like a normal, competent team. And they've done that ever since Leon Rose took that job. And I will say outright, I was a bit skeptical, not because of anything to do with Leon, but just the fact that I'm always

skeptical when someone comes in from the alternate route, right? No assistant GM, no basketball ops experience, period. But he hired a lot of really good people, people who did have a lot of front office experience. And they've just done the slow and steady thing, right? They've kept their picks. They've acquired picks. They haven't swung for the fences. They were in the Donovan Mitchell thing, but whatever. They pulled out or Utah pivoted, whatever it was, they didn't overpay to get Mitchell, which turns out to be the best move anyway, because he and Brunson, you and I, I think agree on this bill. He and Brunson, I don't think because they love Emmanuel Quigley, and they still had hopes for Barrett. But Ananobi launches them to one of their best. Tommy Beer, who's here in town, writes for a number of outlets, noted this on Twitter earlier that the January three-week stretch with Ananobi was the nexticks' best three-week stretch since Linsanity.

Is that true? I didn't look up the numbers. I think it was like 12-1 or something. But arguably the most exciting and the most optimistic, too, since then. So I think whatever happens in the playoffs, and granted, at a certain point there within the last couple of months, I think, again, friends of mine who are Knicks fans were seeing like, hey, if things break right, you know, I think we can actually take the Celtics. And I was hearing this kind of chatter, like they were up for it. They were feeling like we got a bunch of chance. We were a little concerned on the Celtics side, too. You were worried. Yeah, I was.

Yeah. It was the type of Miami Heat type of weird, gritty, tough team that I think would have given the Celtics problems. Yeah. And now I don't think that that's in the cards for this postseason. But you've got to take, it's easy for me to say as the non-fan, but you've got to take the long view. And the long view should be they are in a really great position to, even if they just got healthy and re-sign OG and Anobi and just bring back the same group, they're going to feel like a year from now they've got that same puncher's chance against Boston or whoever. But in the meantime, they still have all those assets, all those extra draft picks. And just they're in a great position to make the next move when they get the opportunity to. And

in this league, that's all you can ask because you don't know when the next guy is available or when you can get him. You just got to put yourself in a position where you have the assets to go get the guy if he's available. Well, they're going to have Randall at 30.3 next year coming off an injury and then 32.4 player option, which I'm guessing with how high the free agent caps space, next year might be his last year on this contract. So that part's interesting. And then Bogdanovich, who has just not been a great signing for them. I guess I should have been able to predict that Tibbs wouldn't totally love this guy because he's such a defense guy. But he has a team option at 19 next year.

So they have some chips. Sean, let's say they traded everything and they got Donovan Mitchell next year. Are you excited about that? Or are you feeling like, oh my God, this is a classic mid-2000s Knicks move?

Oh, I don't think it would be that bad. I mean, I still think Donovan Mitchell's in his prime and is one of the most dynamic scorers in the NBA. And that stretch

that the Cavs had earlier this year where he was carrying them was kind of amazing. He's also just a dyed-in-the-wool New York guy who's basically desperately wanted to be on the Knicks. And there's a homecoming thing that hopefully doesn't too closely mirror the Carmelo thing. I'm the biggest Carmelo hater skeptic around.

And I'm a little nervous about that, but I'm also enticed by it. I just have the same concerns that I think any reasonable person does about putting Mitchell and Brunson in the same backcourt and just feeling like even with a strategically aligned Tibbs defense,

whether or not those two can survive together. And nobody wants to mess with Brunson. I mean, Brunson is, he is already the most legendary and beloved Knicks since Patrick Ewing. There's just no question about it. I mean, he is a,

I genuinely think like a, a demigod to Knicks fans right now. I love watching him play. Everyone feels very emotionally connected to him. So the idea of like messing with that somehow, or they're like,

pairing him with someone who reveals more of his weaknesses or whatever that might lead to makes you feel complicated but they have to do something because they the offense that it is they're missing without randall is so apparent on a night-to-night basis dante di vincenzo being their leading scorer in like six of the last 10 games they're 16 and 14 since randall got hurt like there's just no way around that like they missing him. I have been flummoxed by Julius Randall since he got here. He's really hard to root for.

He plays hard, and he is obviously very gifted, but his energy and his meltdowns at the wrong times, especially at the close of games, drive fans nuts. But they're just missing something without him. So whether it's him coming back in full health or making some sort of move, I wonder if when you look at the core of the team now and you're like, okay, so it's Brunson,

DiVincenzo, Hart, Robinson, Hartenstein, Deuce McBride. OG. And OG, let's say they extend OG. Can you get your head around Cat for Randall at that point? Like, can you, and picks. Like, can you, does it actually make more sense?

And then line those guys up. Because then all those guys are all 27, basically. Everybody on the team. As much as I like Cat, I don't think Cat would be the guy. I just think Bridges is now sitting there from a Brooklyn standpoint. And the Villanova thing, there's been hints. Howard, you know this. Follow the smoke

signals. Smoke signals start pumping up in the air like, what's that? All right. I see a little circle. What is that? And the Villanova thing, which I think all of these guys love, and he just feels like the last piece. And if you're Brooklyn, it doesn't make sense to keep him. It doesn't make sense to do whatever, you know, I'm sure. Have you gone to more Nets games or Knicks games this year, Howard? By far Nets games, because I'm right down the street from, from Barclays Center. So it's just easier. I mean, is there a sadder atmosphere in the league right now than Nets games? It's the worst, right? They had no fans to begin with. And now everybody just goes to see the other team. The Nets don't like playing with each other. Bridges has been exposed as,

oh, you know what? He's actually not the guy who averaged 26 a game the last six weeks of the season after the trade. Like he's an awesome guy to have on your team and your top four, but he's not like a lead guy. So I just don't know why the Nets wouldn't cash that in. I actually think he's worth the most to the Nets. Howard, do you think that the Nets and Knicks would do a deal?

See, that's a really good question, Sean. And if I had thought ahead on this and done my homework, I would have Googled it. I think they last made a trade like 40 years ago. Like Michael Ray Richardson for... Yes. That's why I asked. It never happens. It never happens.

It would be weird I don't think it's out of the Question if Listen, I think both of these front offices Are pretty pragmatic, and it's not Like these are like, you know, dyed in the Wool Knicks and Nets people, right? Leon was a CAA agent for a zillion

Years, and Sean Marks is a, you know, I Still think of him as a Spurs guy, frankly I don't know that they would have any like emotional or or weird awkward feelings about making a deal i do wonder if the two owners might uh josiah and james dolan uh who knows how to predict anything that james dolan would would think or feel um but i agree with you bill on the broader premise anyway like i think we discussed this when I was on Back in January we were doing some

Fake trade stuff or maybe I texted it to you I thought the Nets should have traded Entertaining Mikael Bridges trades At the trade deadline Yeah we talked about it He's mid prime or he's early prime 27-28 year range By the time you're good again as the Nets

I know you want him again as the Nets, I know you want him there as the anchor to attract, whether it's Donovan Mitchell or somebody else who can be the main guy and Bridges can go back to being that number two or number three guy. And he's a guy you want to play with. Great. That's great. The problem is you don't know when you're getting that guy. Maybe it happens this summer, but if it doesn't, how long are you holding onto him waiting for that guy? And by that time, Bridges has burned a couple of years of his prime.

And while I'm not projecting this on him or expecting it or saying he should, we know how it is in today's NBA. You get somewhere for a while, especially if you're, you know, all-star level

or even a little tier below that as Bridges might be, you get understandably antsy and you say, guys, what are we doing? Maybe I shouldn't be here. Maybe it's time to deal me in. I think he's got two years left. He kind of was sniffing that out this year a couple

times. He didn't fully say it, but it's a little like, what are we doing, guys? If I'm the Nets, you got Simmons next year as an expiring, so next year is screwed too. Yeah, could you talk yourself into overpaying for Mitchell if Mitchell's like, I want to be in New York so badly that I'll even play for the Nets?

Yeah. So you're trading all your draft capital, but now this is your team. Your team is Donovan Mitchell. Simmons probably has to be in that trade and then Bridges. I still don't see where you are in the East. He's in a worse situation than he is in Cleveland. His teammates in Cleveland are much better than his teammates would be in Brooklyn. And if he feels like he can't go to the Nets, I mean, the Knicks, then maybe that's when Miami becomes a possibility for him. See, when I think about the Knicks big picture, I think of Bridges and I think of Booker. I know, oh yeah, Booker's never leaving Phoenix. I just don't believe people are in the same place ever in the NBA anymore.

We've been burned so many different times. If I'm the Knicks, who's going to be unhappy end of April? Because we have so many good teams now. There's going to be a couple teams that are just like, holy shit, we just lost in the first round in five games. Or, oh my God, we didn't even get out of the plan. We just spent $250 million on our roster. And I think Phoenix is a good candidate for that.

It already seems kind of unhappy when you watch them. I thought that Phoenix-Cleveland game last night was like the unhappy All-Star game. At various times, I was worried about the state of mind of both teams. But, you know, and then there's the Durant piece too, which we have to mention,

Sean. You just have to. Because he does that interview podcast with Rich Kleiman, which I thought was hilarious to do a podcast with your manager. And he's like, I told you we should have done the Knicks. And Katie's like, I know, you were right. And I'm like, all right. So now the door is open now for the Knicks

that they're just even talking about that. And I just wonder if the Suns thing goes badly this year, did the Knicks come to the rescue? That would be bittersweet for me because I love Kevin Durant watching Kevin Durant and just my favorite scorer in the last 15 years in the NBA and it was the same attitude that I had towards Aaron Rodgers uh who's my favorite quarterback to watch and kind of like my ideal as a quarterback in many ways doesn't make mistakes cannon arm great improviser cerebral good podcast guest absolutely both of those guys great podcast a lot of interesting in many ways, doesn't make mistakes, cannon arm, great improviser, cerebral.

Good podcast guest. Absolutely. Both of those guys, great podcast, a lot of interesting ideas that they're sharing. Thinker. Complicated ideas. Yeah, absolutely.

Not afraid to go against the grain. Zags. No, I mean, both of those guys are kind of dipshits. You know what I mean? And they're both coming to us late in their careers.

Like, what are we talking about? Like, what I want as a fan, and I think in some ways I feel this way about Jalen Brunson, and maybe I'll feel this way about Garrett Wilson, what I want as a fan, and I think in some ways I feel this way about Jalen Brunson, and maybe I'll feel this way about Garrett Wilson, and maybe I'll feel this way

about a handful of other people. I just want somebody who's 26 and the best player in the league one time in my life. Just one time. That would be amazing to have, you know, to draft Kevin Durant. Not to get Kevin Durant

when he's 37 on his whoops, I screwed up four years ago and went to Brooklyn contract and begging his way out of the Matt Ishbia tire fire owner's syndrome Phoenix Suns. That just doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense for the culture that Tibbs and Rose built that Howard

was talking about. I don't even know what is Durant searching for? A kind of vindication there? What could complicate his legacy even more than trying to make that like make up for the mistake that he made by not coming in the first place then coming late and then letting us down and

not working out that would only that's the only thing you could do to make it worse for fan for Knicks fans so I don't know Booker might actually be slightly more realistic if he decided he just didn't want to be there anymore, which we've seen over and over again in the NBA

for the last 20 years. But he's got all the Kentucky ties and all the ties with Wes and those guys. And I think that's on the short list for them. I mean,

that's the one they've been waiting for forever. And he's what I'm talking about. He's 27. He's one of the 10 best players in the league. He's a dog. And he would be

a megastar in New York. Makes a little more sense with Brunson. in the league. He's a dog. And he would be a megastar in New York. Makes a little more sense with Brunson. Right? Yeah. He's bigger. You know, he can defend wings. Like, there's more there that makes sense than Mitchell.

I don't know, though. I don't... In what world are you trading Devin Booker? How can you trade... Like, he would have to... He would have to say, like, I want out. But that brings me to the point I had earlier, which is is like,

we're going to have some unhappiness in April. This is just the way it's going to go. There's going to be five or six teams who are just at the crossroads and players that are going, oh my God, I just wasted a year of my career and we won a playing game and then I lost in five in round one. What's next? What are we going to do? How are we going to get better? And there's going to be no answers. The league's just really, really good. Howard, are you surprised that the Knicks are even in the position where they could potentially lure, they can big game hunt again? Because this was so bad. Guys weren't even taking free agent meetings with this

organization anymore. Did you ever feel like this was irretrievable if Dolan was the owner or there was some path back? I mean, there was certainly the case to be made that it might be irretrievable with Dolan as the owner with all the missteps he's made privately, publicly, operationally, politically, all kinds of different things you could throw into that bucket um but i've also you know been covering the league long enough to know that like nothing's permanent in this league right you know the the clippers were the laughing stock for most of our lives right and they're about to move into their own beautiful new building they've got a great owner who's the richest owner in the nba maybe the richest owner in sports.

And they're respectable. They have James Harden. He's red hot right now. That's going great. I mean, things happen. But, you know, but no, but listen, Bill, I think we would agree if those guys all retired tomorrow, the difference is that by Kawhi and Paul George picking the Clippers and then Harden going Westbrook, whoever, it's changed the image of them. If they have cap room tomorrow, guys are going to actually consider them. The best players will consider them in the way that they never would have

during the entirety of the Donald Sterling era. So things change quickly. I'm only surprised that the Knicks are in this position based on what I said earlier, which is that at the time that Leon Rose comes in with worldwide west and everything else it's like what what exactly are they doing here like you know dolan's always hiring the guy who he thinks um you know can can somehow get him the stars immediately and that and that hasn't even really happened the one guy who's become the star is jalen brunson who at the time they signed him, people thought was an overpay, and now is a vast underpay. Oh, my God.

So the surprise in it is simply that they took a very unconventional road to get here, and the front office has operated in a way that I think most of their predecessors in New York have not. They've done the smart, pragmatic, methodical type of moves, smaller moves, singles and doubles, instead of it all being swing for the fences every time, instead of it being, you know, let's go get Marbury, let's go get Amari Stoudemire, let's get Carmelo and trade everything we've got to get him and now hamstring the Carmelo era for the rest of time

because we had no assets left to deal. They were always sending out everything they had to get somebody and often the wrong guy at the wrong time. And that's what they have not done. And now they've been patient. So now you have Sean dreaming about Booker and Towns. One thing that happened that I talked about a couple of times in my podcast during the offseason last year about the Giannis side of things and how one of the Bucs owners sold. And I just thought there was some things I just didn't like coming out of the situation.

Let's go, Billy. Let's do it. Come on. Come to New York, Giannis. No, because he locked into Milwaukee, at least for a little while. But the more I've heard afterwards, after the fact, I think the Bucs thought he was going to ask for a trade. I really think that was in play before the season. And then when they did the Dame trade and then all of a sudden Giannis came back in, I forget which one happened first. But there was a little stretch there where they were like, he's not going to opt in and we're probably going to have to trade him or we're going to lose him for nothing.

And I think the Knicks were sitting there for that. Giannis gave two interviews last summer, one with the New York Times and one with a podcast whose name I apologize I cannot remember, where he basically said, like, if we're not going to be able to compete for championships, then yeah, maybe I would go somewhere else. I'm paraphrasing, obviously. But he was he was he was laying the breadcrumbs. But I think in real life, I think the situation was way more advanced. And then whatever happened, happened. They stayed. But even the Griffin to Doc thing, I think they're always going to be concerned. He's just going to look up one day and be like, eh, it's time. I've outgrown this place, which we've seen happen a lot in the NBA.

So I do think the Knicks are hoarding their assets. They're waiting. I'm going to be really interested in the Ananobi contract though, because I have it written down. Let's just say he's not Lou Gehrig from a durability standpoint. Last four years, 29 games missed, 34 games missed, 15 games missed, this year 31 and counting. And I don't even know what's going on with that elbow and why it's not getting better. But I just don't

know. There's always some wink-wink stuff with this. How high does that contract go, Sean, before you start throwing up in a garbage can? Four years 120, are you throwing up in a garbage can. Like four years, four years, one 20. Are you throwing up yet?

Like four years, one 40. Where are we going? Four years, one 60. Are you puking? That's that's, that would be not good.

Four years, one 60 would be not good. I'm, I'm, I'm concerned. I mean, on the one hand, like he's going to be 27 this summer when he played.

Um, he was, he's like the ultimate Tibbs weapon. He's like the player that I imagine Tibbs has been dreaming of his entire career.

Guy who can hit open threes and defend every position on the floor. And he completely unlocked their ability as, you know,

they lost, I think they went like 16 and two in January. They were the remarkable. Um, but if he has a chronic injury,

that's the kind of move that can literally derail a five-year period for a team. I mean, if they're paying him for $40 million... Go look at Ben Simmons. Yeah, I mean, it can be a disastrous move.

So I don't know. I mean, they have to just make sure that they have the right information about his health. Because, you know, you'd imagine that if he was healthy enough to play right now, he'd be playing.

I guess maybe you could make the case that they knew deep down that Randall was never coming back. So they're not trying to push it with OG and that there's a quiet acceptance. That's fair. That this is not the year. And so let him heal fully before giving him that extension. I don't know. That's trying to psychologize the front office there. I am a little nervous about the contract, though.

Also, the weirdness of someone like OG making $10 or $15 million more a year than Jalen Brunson, which will get resolved in the next year or two when he gets extended. But that also is kind of strange for a guy who, you know, OG is a three. He's like a number three piece on a great team. Not a number two, not a number four.

He's a three. And $40 million is a lot for that. Howard, if Brunson makes All-NBA, does he get it? What happens to his contract? I don't know the rule because he signed a couple of years ago, but for me, I've been tinkering with my all NBA every week now. We're still seven games away. There's some things in flux, but I don't really see a scenario where he's not a second team all NBA guy for me now. I think he's probably a lock. And I think, and listen, I have not done the exercise yet, Bill, you're ahead of me. I got to get my shit together. But it's hard to imagine that he's not going to make one of the all NBA teams. And especially because we're in the first year

of this whole 65 game rule, which is going to knock out a bunch of other guys. Knock out Mitchell already. And we're in the first year of it being positionless too, which I know, Bill, you're still going to go. You've said you're going to go with positions. And I'm considering that myself too. I'm a little uncomfortable with it just being one through 15. But the thing about the one through 15 is if you want to over-index forwards or bigs, you can. And that could come at the expense of some guards.

Does that mean somebody like Brunson falls off? I don't know. I'm not saying he should. He has to be second on the NBA. He absolutely has to be. I don't know. I do not have my Bobby Marks hat on today. I do not know what that does to them on the Supermatch.

It'd be funny if Bobby just came barging into the pod out of nowhere. He's just like a bad signal. Sean, what do you think the net rating is of the Hartenstein, Hart, Brunson, DiVincenzo, Deuce McBride lineup, if you had to guess? You're going to have to tell me. It's plus 32.4 per 100 minutes. The Hart

Foundation. That's what Waz was trying to get that going on the Ring Around B.A. show. The Hart Foundation, Hartenstein, and Josh Hart. And Josh Hart. And Josh Hart. To me, Devin Jentles has been the story. I mean, he's had multiple games now where he's made eight plus three-pointers. There's something crazy going on right now with him.

Yeah, he was not this good on the Warriors last year, but... Not even close. I mean, I think there's... I have heard some people say that there's some confusion around the success of this team because basically every player is having a career year. And if every player has a career year, do you want to overextend your excitement? Or is it just that these guys have hit their prime and that this is who they are? You know, maybe Dante DiVincenzo is a 40% three-point shooter who shoots 12 threes a game.

Maybe that is his game now. I really don't know. It's impossible to tell, though, when Randall and OG don't play because what actually are those other guys who were 25- a night guys who are now 35 minute a night guys it's really hard to say yeah i don't know that either the analytics guys will tell you that three-point shooting is one of those things where if you have suddenly a career like there was uh i hate to bring this up for for sean's uh sake but like uh raymond felton and maybe jr smith that same year the 54 win season like some guys had career years or like outstanding three month stretches.

And the analytics guys will tell you like three point shooting. If you have like an outlier year, especially, you know, to the high end, way over your career average, that's probably the anomaly. It doesn't necessarily mean it's a it takes a while to stabilize. And so it's not necessarily a permanent state of affairs. And so, yeah, I think there should be at least a little bit of concern about too many guys having career years. Is it that they're all hitting their prime at the same time? Is that they're playing with Jalen Brunson?

Is it that it's just a chemistry thing? Is it just the universe? Everything clicked into place. And if you overpay everyone and assume you're going to this is just going to keep climbing, that that could be a little scary. Can I give you what my biggest concern would be? Because we lived in Boston with the Isaiah Thomas here. Rosillo brought this up on Sunday's pod. Isaiah Thomas had a very similar year to what Brunson's doing this year, where he was just awesome. And actually running a lot of the same offensive sets that the Celtics ran that year,

that the Knicks are running this year. and just took a physical pounding night after night after night after night and couldn't sustain it, got hurt. And when I watched Brunson, I think the thing that is one of the reasons I can't wait to put him on my second team is just the pounding he takes night after night. Fucking love that guy, man. He really leaves it all out, especially when they changed the rules in February. There were some guys that it was just worse for. It was bad for Curry. It was bad for Brunson.

Some of these guys that you can really kind of rough up, especially the smaller guards. That guy keeps ticking. I thought that San Antonio game, what did he end up with? 61? Yeah. And he end up with? 61? Yeah. And he only had six free throws?

And there was like 10 different times he went flying into something. But I think, but it's not surprising to me to hear that you think he's the most popular Knicks since Ewing. But it speaks to like a challenge that that team is having right now

because now two of their last three losses have come down to the last possession and Brunson has taken the final shot in both games and he's been unbelievable in both games. But he's freaking exhausted playing 44 minutes a game and he's taking off-balance shots with not a lot of offensive

help, missing guys. And what's he supposed to do? The Isaiah Thomas thing is a little scary to me because Isaiah Thomas when you look back basically had those two mega seasons with the Celtics where he was amazing. I don't think we're going to look back on Brunson as having these two

incredible seasons with the Knicks and then breaking down. I guess it's possible. We have to account for it. They're built a little bit differently and they play a little bit differently to me, Brunson and Thomas. Thomas is a little bit more slight,

I think, than Brunson. Well, Thomas was, I mean, he's probably five foot nine. Yeah, Brunson. He's five nine. Yeah, Brunson. Well, Thomas was... I mean, he's probably 5'9". Yeah. He's 5'9". Yeah, Brunson's listed at 6'2", but his own teammates say he's closer to 6', I think. Yeah.

Yeah. But he felt a little bit stiffer and sturdier to me, too. Brunson. Well, either way, Sean's back. I remember there was a time in the mid-2010s when he thought about giving up the NBA entirely. I never in a million years would have thought, as Howard said, that it would have been Leon Rosen and Tibbs who would have gotten me back into. I was very dubious of the Tibbs hire. I was

miserable when they failed to sign Durant. Miserable. That might have been my lowest because I thought that that was their best chance to get that credibility back. And I was 100% wrong about that. They have done an amazing job rebuilding this team and never made a mistake. But now we're at this summer. This could be the time when you make the mistakes. I really hope they don't. All right. Sean fantasy. Can listen to him on the big picture and

on the rewatchables every once in a while. And sometimes he goes on the New York, New York podcast with John Jastrzemski. Usually, usually unhappily. That's our own five, Bill. That's our own five. That's tough. We got to put you in a situation when you're popping on sports podcasts

in a happy mood. Anyway, Howard's staying on. Thanks, Sean. Thanks, guys. Taking a break. Whether in the game or in life, the right coverage can make all the difference. Securian Canada gives you that coverage.

For more than 65 years, Securian Canada has been helping Canadians build secure tomorrows. Their insurance solutions are designed to help protect you and your loved ones financially, giving you the peace of mind to focus on what truly matters. Find their products through banks, credit unions, and associations. Or visit SecurianCanada.ca. Securian Canada. insurance designed for life. All right, now we're going to play a game with Howard called Surprise Me, I guess we'd call it.

I just told you to come up with a couple of topics and you were like, do you want me to send them to you? And I said, no. I'm totally confident in my ability to just bounce off whatever you're going to throw at me. So I asked you to come up with two or three things that you care about right now as we head into the last, what do we got, 10 days left in the season? What do you care? What's on your mind? I've got like four or five. And this is definitely one thing I've learned about you, Bill,

in our brief time together here at The Ringer, that you do like surprises. So here we go. You know what? I'm going to do this. I'm going to skip down my list here to a contrarian take. Contrarian, actually, it's contrary to something you said when you and Ursula were talking, if I were some other team trading, I would rather have the Nets package of Suns picks than the Houston package of Nets picks. And it goes to something we were just discussing, which is this Suns thing is really all over the map. It could go any direction in the playoffs. I don't know if they're a first round out bill or a conference finalist but if it crashes and burns you know durant's turning 36 in september he's played over 1200 games counting the playoffs two big deals two big injuries and some the three foot surgery year people have forgotten about that way back in oklahoma three foot surgeries in like 18 months um plus the achilles um and like i i hope durant can play for many more years to come at a high level as he still is but you just don't know when the end

hits for these guys the beal contract is going to handicap the suns through 2027 when he'll be making 57 million in 2627 um so if durant were to break down or as you said, bail out, I'm not sure that's going to happen. Or get old. There's three options, right? Break down,

bail out, get old or stay at this level. How long is it going to be? You know, how many minutes expire before Booker has just made the call to say, I'm out, pull the rip cord. So the,

the sun's picks that are going to brooklyn they got the 2023 already so there's 25 27 29 at a swap in 28 I'm saying bill that by the time 20 maybe not 25 by the time that 27 pick comes around and then the swap of 28 and 29 the nets could very well be the better team than the suns um so they'll get the swap and they'll get the higher picks. The Suns could be crashing and burning and it could be pretty ugly. Whereas with the Nets, granted a rough spot they're in right now, but they do have flexibility, including all those picks that they could trade their picks to Houston.

They still owe 25 or excuse me, 24, 26, and then swaps in 25 and 27, Which is brutal. It's the next four years Houston has the better pick. Or the pick. Yeah. But the thing for the Nets is, the silver lining for them, if you can call it that, is like right now, if the season ends right now, their lottery pick, their draft pick is somewhere in that 8-9 range. The last time that that happened and that pick went somewhere else,

it became Colin Sexton for the Cav cavaliers not catastrophic it could be but if this is as bad as it gets for the nets bill if they can whether they're trading bridges for a bunch of stuff whether they're trading cam johnson for a bunch of stuff uh whether they are trading all those sons picks to get donovan mitchell they're to at least be competent, I think, sooner than later, in which case those picks that they still owe to Houston might not be that bad. They may be just low lottery or somewhere in the mid-teens, whatever.

But I don't think they're going to be... It's not like sending the Jalen Brown, Jason Tatum picks to Boston once upon a time. So I think they're going to level out or at least be competent. Can I zag on your zag? Yeah, while the Suns crash. Yeah, go. Let's go through the East.

Would you rather be the Pistons next four years with all your picks and the players you have or the Nets? As bad as the Pistons are, I think I want to be the Nets. Really? I would much rather be the Pistons are, I think I want to be the Nets. Really? I would much rather be the Pistons. At least I know I have some winning talent and that if it doesn't fit together, I can do something with it, even if it's trading it. I don't know what the Pistons have right now, Bill. And I know Ivy and these guys and Cunningham's got some problems.

There's some stuff there, but I just feel like something's really amiss there. I don't know what it is. Wizards? The Wizards are in that early stages of the teardown, so it's kind of hard to assess. But again, the Nets have- At least they have their picks. But the Nets have all those Suns picks, plus they still have a pick from the Mavericks and the Sixers.

They're sitting on a lot of decent capital that they could spend. Would you rather be Charlotte or the Nets? Probably Charlotte on the hope of a Brandon Miller bringing the Renaissance and LaMelo Ball someday staying healthy and a better front office coming in via the Nets of all things. I'd rather be Charlotte. Toronto or the Nets. I mean, Toronto's tanking now,

so they're going to have a top six pick in the worst draft in 24 years, plus the other assets. And they have all their other stuff. I'd probably rather be Toronto. And they've got Scottie Barnes. Like on any of these, I'll start with, if your best player is young and better than my best player,

I'm going to take that guy. So yeah, Scottie Barnes and Toronto win that battle. And then if you go to the 10 playoff teams and play-in teams, I think I'd rather be them than the Nets. Just cross the board. Yeah, different exercise, and I agree with you, but I'm just saying in a vacuum. I see your point.

So basically, you think the possibility of downside with Phoenix from the mid-2020s on to you is scarier than wherever this could go at the Nets. I guess my counter would be, because everyone's like, well, the Nets will get good players because it's New York. People want to play there. But the part that everybody forgets is the other players have been playing there the last 10 years. And if I'm another player going in there and playing in Brooklyn, am I excited to be there for 41 home games from what I've seen passing through? Is this a destination compared to, I don't know, when you play at MSG, when you play in Boston, when you pick anywhere? Yeah. It's tough. It's a tough contrast, especially when you're in the same

city with the Knicks and the garden is just absolutely rocking. And even in the worst of times, the Garden is intense. Barclays isn't great most of the time. I've seen some good moments there. The Nets fans will rally now and then. But yeah, a lot of times the place is filled with fans of the star on the other team, LeBron or Steph or whoever's coming through. That part's tough, but some guys would actually prefer maybe, and you know, listen, Durant was accused of this. He and Kyrie were accused of this, of you get all the benefits of New York without necessarily as much of the scrutiny because the Knicks get all of that pressure and the Nets get very little of it. So it may just depend on the temperament of the player. There's still a lot of advantages to being in New York regardless. And it may well be a trade right everything is trades now anyway and i think the pressure's on sean marks clearly firmly right now to make a move this summer like he made the moves you know uh under duress to trade kyrie irving and kevin durant did pretty well on both deals

and but then he just sat on it for the last, you know, year and a half year plus. And I think this summer is the point where it's like, okay, we've let this go long enough. We have to course correct at some point and pick a direction. So like this, if you and I resume this conversation in,

you know, late July, August, I wonder where we'll be because I, I, something tells me the nets are going to, I don't know if it's to... I don't know if it's dramatic. I don't know if they're getting a superstar, but they're going to make moves to at

least become good again. And that's what they did the last time they were in this position, right? They didn't let themselves sink too far for too long before they pivoted. And some of that was just overachieving and finding hidden gems and Kenny Atkinson coaching his ass off and them overachieving. But I don't know. It'll be interesting. Yeah, I wonder if they go all in on Mitchell and do the Danny Ainge mid-2000s philosophy of, we have two, now it'll be easier to get the third.

Right? Because we've seen teams do that. I just don't know in the East where it goes. I am surprised that Sean Marks, that they haven't shaken up the front office at all. So this is a pretty long time to have the same group. And they've been kind of zagging around with not a lot of highlights.

All right, what's your next one? What's your next bullet point? I could either go historical or a little bit wacky. Which would you prefer? Let's go historical. Historical. I've heard some discussion in the last couple of days about, and especially in the wake of Tim Bond, Let's go historical. year ago too right uh as as as an nba community could yokich get three in a row because it puts him in this elite territory and is that my view of this has always been the season is the season

and if you start trying to take too much of the historical into account and you're you're a historian of the game bill like i think it can warp your thinking a little bit and i get it like do we want to put yokich alongside you know like Wilt or Bird or whatever? But now that he's won the championship, I would hope that people who have that concern might tamp that down a little. And yet on the podcast the other day when Bontemps and McMahon are talking, I think it was Bontemps said that he already had somebody saying, Jokic can't win it for a third time in four years even. The list is this, right? So the guys with three or more, Moses Mal, Bird, and Magic have three

Wilt and LeBron have four Bill Russell and MJ have five Kareem has six So Jokic, by winning a third, which seems likely right now Will pull him out of the group of two Where Giannis, Steph, Nash, Duncan, Karl Malone, and Bob Petit are And it'll put Jokic alongside Magic, Bird, and Moses I know that still seems startling for people Especially for older fans in Carl Malone and Bob Petitard, and it'll put Jokic alongside Magic Bird and Moses.

I know that still seems startling for people, especially for older fans, to put him on that level. But we don't, Bill, we don't literally put a guy on a level, right? We're not sitting here right now and saying Jokic is the equivalent of Magic. We're just saying that this season, 2023- especially once mb went down because mb was definitely leading the race at the moment he went down it's this is yokich's to lose and who knows how this will go in the next couple weeks but there was a landslide in the straw poll um i just don't we kind of know by the way the fando odds is minus 4 000 and i think i think it's kind of a wrap so if if this is where it's headed I don't think anybody should have any historical concerns

with it. What do you think? I mean, I'll go off the top rope on this. The four years that he just had are up there with any four-year stretch of any great player. Bird's best stretch was 84 to 87 and Magic was probably 87 to 90, but you go through like the four-year peaks of guys and what he did, it's freaking crazy. One of the things that I always love to do with this stuff was if you just look, the most basic thing you could do is points per game, rebounds per game, assists per game, where somebody ranks in the league.

Right? Some of the combos, if you just added, let's say you're in first place in points, you're in third place in assists, so that's one point plus three points, and you're in ninth place in rebounds, so combined,

that's 13. If you look at some of the stuff that he's doing and Luca's doing, it's stuff that is pretty rarefied air. I did this ironically for Rosillo Potter. We never ended up using it. If you go through the premise of you have to be in the top 20 in points, rebounds, and assists to qualify for this list, and then you add the rankings of each number and the lowest possible number wins. It's almost like golf. So Kareem in 1976 was an 18. So his three placements together added up to 18. You go on through. Bird did it four times. He had a 29 and 85 and 30 and 84, 32 and 81, or 33 and 82. But in the last seven years, as the offense has gone

up, all of a sudden this became way easier, right? Where you have, Jokic had a 16 in 2022. You know how fucking absurd that is? You add his three places, it only adds up to 16. So he's at 21 this year. The best ever was Will Chamberlain in 1968. He was seven. He led the league in rebounds and assists and was like fifth in scoring. My point is, every year, he's always in the top three or four

in rebounds and assists. And he's like in the top 10 in points. His team's offensive rating is always in the top five. He's the most fun player to watch. He elevates his teammates more than anyone else in the league. His team wins. If Murray didn't get hurt, you could argue they might've had more than one title there. I think they're going to win again this year. So if he ends up with two titles, like this is fine. This is kind of the pool he should be swimming in i do people not think this apparently that's still a thing like i said i it hadn't really what does he have to do

i know it's it's weird you would and you would think the pressure release valve would have been the championship last year where it's like oh well if he wins all these regular season awards but he doesn't win the championship then aren't those a little empty which again these are separate things we vote at the end of the regular season for a reason. But I do think for those people who are, and I get it. Like if you think that you need some kind of validation that's to be an all-time great, you need finals, you need champions. Fine. He got his championship and his finals MVP. And a few months from now, he might be raising another one. Also the playoff performance has matched the regular season performance,

which I think is very important. He's always been really good in the playoffs. You know, and you think like, I just feel like that Murray injury took out two playoffs for him because of the timing of when the injury was. There's like he, Murray could not have gotten hurt

at a worse point in the season. It was right before one playoff, so they couldn't even make a trade to try to save it. And then it also took him out for the next playoffs. And, you know, I just, I look back at that Suns-Bucks series and could they have made it that year? Absolutely. And then you go to 22, the Warriors won the title.

And I think the ceiling of the Nuggets team was probably slightly better than that 22 Warriors team. So I don't know. I just, to me, this four-year run is about as good as it's gotten since I've been watching basketball. Yeah. And that should speak for itself, right? No matter whatever hardware he won along the way, when he's putting up the numbers he has and his team is having the success it has, there should be no reservations about that. And on top of everything else, the artistry of just, like the game he had Sunday against Cleveland, they didn't just kick Cleveland's ass like he was fucking levitating above the game. He was throwing crazy passes and he's just dominating it, you know, and that's the last piece when it's not just like you're great. Your team's winning the stats. But when you watch somebody just dominate another team.

And when it often looks kind of effortless. Yeah, and it just looks like he's toying with them, which LeBron got to that point probably the last couple of Miami years, I felt like, especially in 2013, and then would have shades of it in Cleveland. But then that 2018, where it just felt like he could just rip through anybody

and get 40 points whenever he wanted. But it's a pretty rare place to get to. I think it's the reason people are so afraid of Luka this year. Because Luka has these moments where you wonder like, shit, could he do this four time in a playoff series? And would it matter who he's playing? You know, where he's just feels like he's levitating above the game. So anyway, what's your what's your wacky one? Spinning off of the MVP discussion, I proposed this on a podcast. I used to do a podcast

with Zach Lowe and Rachel Nichols. We would do this once a year. We would split it between our pods and it was the drunk with power pod. And we would just propose stuff no matter how ridiculous or sometimes very practical and basic. I proposed this, it was mocked, but I'm proposing it again here. I think the MVP ballot should go seven deep. So this is not a major thing, Bill, and it would not change the outcome, right? A sixth and seventh spot on the MVP ballot is not going to change who wins. But look at the poll again that they just did where 10 guys got at least one vote, Jalen Brown getting exactly one vote.

Guys who did not appear in the poll, though, who did not get votes, but I think could justify a fourth or fifth spot, Zion, Booker, or Durant. Now, there's games played issues for Booker, potentially, although I think he's going to make it. In a normal year, Embiid would have been on the ballot somewhere, so that pushes everybody down a spot. Donovan Mitchell could have been.

He was arguably in the discussion for, again, down ballot spot. Baseball goes 10 deep on their MVP ballot. 10. So we only have five because that's the way they've always done it? Because it's the way they've always done it? Because it's the way we've always done it. And I'm not saying, like, I got accused of this being like participation trophy territory, which, okay, fair. It's just more like this.

What happens sometimes after these votes is then fans say, well, how come my guy didn't get more support? How come my guy wasn't even on the ballot? And I would say it's because, you know, everybody makes their own. There's usually two or three guys who are truly in the race. And four and five is usually I think this guy had a great season, but his team wasn't good enough. Or I think this guy's team was really good and he was pretty good. And it's somewhere like he's in the discussion somewhere. Right. Like, you know, Domana Sabonis got a couple of fifth place votes, I think, in the ESPN poll.

He's a good one. He wasn't on my ballot that I sent into bond temps, but he could have been. Kawhi Leonard wasn't on my ballot, could have been. Anthony Edwards could have been. So if we have seven, then more of the guys who are in that four to seven discussion, or excuse me, that four or five discussion, it becomes a four through seven discussion. And I think we have enough guys each year who merit that four and five spot. And if you do that, then somewhere in the consensus of the a hundred voters, that four and five might actually change.

Cause if you've got enough sixes, it might make up for the fact that, you know, not enough guys, not enough people put your fifth. So this is a good point because somebody can get the fourth because some idiot voted somebody like in the first place MVP and that just swung his points and all of a sudden he was fourth.

Yeah. So it's just a thought. Like it's not the most important thing in the world, but it's something I've kicked around now. And then I also think we need a third all defensive team. But I think that one requires like CBA amendments because anything regarding awards

and having more guys being named something I think requires the league and the union to approve it. But for the last few years, I feel like especially, you start pulling people around the league, like who should be on the all-defensive team, and that's a conversation I always have because I think it's one of the harder ones we do. There's always more than 10 that are deserving.

We have three all-NBA teams. Why don't we have three all defensive teams? I would add a 20 minutes and under a game spot. I would have the two teams, but then some way to commensurate our guy, Jonathan Isaac, because he just needs, if the goal of all the ballots

is to be a snapshot of the season, like as you were talking tonight, because I do, I love the random fourth or fifth place guy in the MVP voting when you look back years later. So I went back 10 years because I was like, what was the Noah

year when it was like, oh man, Noah had that awesome year. Noah was fourth in the MVP ballot in 2014. It went Durant, LeBron, Blake Griffin, Noah, James Harden, Houston, and then Steph Curry was six and Chris Paul was seven. And Al Jefferson was eight in Charlotte. But like the MVP vote, it's great. But then I think I just, I'm with you. It's fun to look at the four through seven guys.

And I think there's probably a better way to do it. And I can't back this up with any data bill, but, and the league will correct me if I'm wrong, because I know that they do look at this. I think there's probably a better way to do it. And I can't back this up with any data bill, and the league will correct me if I'm wrong, because I know that they do look at this. I think we've had less randomness since we went to transparency. So about 10 years ago, the league just moved, and we were part of this, the Pro Basketball Writers Association

had had discussions with them about this. I loved it. So we went transparency, right? The thing with transparency, it's pros and cons, but the potential con is because everybody knows exactly how we've all voted and now you might be worried a little bit about backlash or fan bases coming after you, especially in the era of social media, which is more of a recent phenomenon. And so does it encourage more groupthink? Does it make people go with safer bets?

But I would say transparency and groupthink are on two separate lanes in the highway traveling next to each other and they're both separate problems that both feed into each other. Because the groupthink's another thing. I think you saw it last year with Jokic and

Bede. If we didn't know who was voting on that, I think that vote's different. I think some people are afraid to vote on Jokic because they didn't know who was voting on that i think that vote's different i think some people are afraid to vote on yokich because they didn't want to take shit and if it's just like oh this is an anonymous hundred votes i'm telling you that vote's different i i get what you're saying and i think i've heard you bring up versions of this before the only thing i would push back on with that is and i always say this like it's and it's the obvious, there's 100 people voting. It used to be 125.

I think it was 130 at one point. You just don't know how. Everybody's in their own little bubble. It's not like everybody's conferring. I always try to stay away from mind reading. But the league knows, though, if somebody fucks up the vote, pull the vote. No, no, no. I get that. No, all I'm saying is with respect to the idea that people change the vote because of the stuff that Kendrick

Perkins said, and maybe it made people self-conscious or whatever. And now people were, I don't, it's, these are impossible to prove things. You'd have to be able to mind read or interview all a hundred voters and hope that they all told you the exact truth. I think it's the all NBA is the same. Like, you know, you basically have to put LeBron on the all NBA or you're like the LeBron hater. LeBron's like Beyonce. I mean, I'm going to put LeBron on this year because I think he's one of the best 15 players, but last year I didn't, and I didn't put them on, but it doesn't, you know, our job is to put the best people on. For sure. But to the extent that transparency has maybe made people more self-conscious or maybe pushed some or inspired some group think, or maybe or made people make safer bets, I think that's affected

things like the four and five, perhaps on the MVP. It would be really interesting and more fun, I think, if you've got more names involved and you have more names involved, if you have a deeper ballot. I like this. I can't believe Rachel and Zach made fun of this. I think it's a great idea. So this year, Jokic is going to win and then it'll be Luka, Giannis, SGA, probably Tatum in some order. But then you also have Edwards the last couple of months, probably not, but there's probably eight guys, but it'd be interesting. You could make a case. Edwards should be fifth or sixth because he's kept that team role and then, you know, they lose

towns and he's taken a bigger responsibility. They're going to be the one seat. It's, it seems like they have a real chance. Yeah. And if you do it, you're doing Edwards at the expense of probably Tatum or Brunson or somebody and you're it's that that that painful thing as a voter and then of course again like the fan base is justifiably would be saying like i can't believe this guy to get more support well if we had six and seven spots more guys would get some of that support for the down ballot stuff that guys i think have earned that uh respect for i guess the league's response could be hey we took positions off all nba so that you could reward more uh people without now because now that is reflective of that respect for, I guess the league's response could be, hey, we took positions off all NBA

so that you could reward more people without risk now, because now that is reflective of one through 15 in theory, whereas before it was reflective of top six guards, top six forwards, top three centers. And now it's more of a true one through 15. So I guess you could make the case that we don't need MVP to go. But I also think those are different honors, Bill. People debate this one too, but I think MVP, the winning and winning at a high level is baked in to the equation because

of the V. And with all NBA, to me, it's more about just individual excellence and the wins are a factor, but to me, not as big of a factor as MVP. Well, since you got a little goofy, I'll give you one and then I know we have to go. They added this Clutch Player Award, which I don't think has really worked because you just look up the clutch stats and it's like, oh, DeRozan has this and Curry has this. Kyle, turn the TikTok camera on. I don't know what you should call this award, but I know it should exist because if you look back at a season, I want to know the blueprint of like,

who was in the NBA, MVP, Rookie of the Year, Coach of the Year. Oh yeah, I remember that year. That was when this, this, and this. It should be a, thanks for making the league more fun this year. Should be the theme of the award. I don't know if it's just called the Thank You Award

or it's the Most Fun Award or I don't know what you would call it, but it would just called the thank you award or it's the most fun award or um i don't know what you would call it but it would go to the guy who like unexpectedly made this season more fun and this year i think if we were talking about it if i could figure out what the title of it was or whatever but i think you know what i mean it's like the lance ste Stevenson award or something. Oh, so Rudy says the league pass value award. I like this, the LPV award. So if we had the league pass value award or league pass valuable player award, the L the L P P whatever it's, it's Wemby and it's probably Anthony Edwards and then Jokic. And then we would be arguing about it's gotta be Jokic. No, Jokic won last year. That that's not, it's gotta be somebody

else. But I would say the case for Ant and Wemby would be like, we didn't have this last year. So it's almost like a cousin of the most improved award. But I think of like that first Blake Griffin lob city year, right? Blake Griffin would have won that year. The year, the next year when Curry started hitting the threes, you're like, oh my God, this is amazing. I can't believe we have this. I feel like that has to be captured in some way. And it's not the most improved award. All right. So you're thinking this could be stars. This is not, I was thinking Lance Stevenson as somebody who's just like a role player who's goofy and makes us entertained. But you're saying more like guys who just actually, you want to tune in, you don't care what else happens in the game or whether their team's any good. You just want to watch that guy. You were just happy they were

in the league this year and you got just an incredible amount of entertainment about them. I almost feel like it could be like Apex Mountain and rewatchables where nobody really totally knows how to define it or what it means exactly. So maybe it's up to each person. You might think, Bull Bull, I fucking love Bull Bull. And it's like, nobody's allowed to criticize your pick because it's the pick for you. It's like, I just love Bull Bull and Bull Bull comes in and that's my guy and he's my pick. I would have had Ant locked into this, but everything that's happened with Wemby the last few weeks, I think it's now a two person race between those two. Cause the Wemby thing, some of the shit he was doing against,

and what was it? Golden state the other night when, or Denver, Denver. Yeah. Denver. He blocked Jokic like three times. Blocked Jokic.

It was, it got to the point when Jokic was scoring on him. I was like, Oh my God, he got one. You know, it was just like, this is the best player in the league.

And then that one time Reggie Jackson challenged him. And then Wembley will come down and take a terrible three, but it was so much fucking fun to watch. And I don't know. It just feels like that should be an award. But what is that called then? So we call it the league? Well, we used to have

on Twitter, we'd say league pass alert. Hashtag John Schumann came up with that, right? Hashtag League Pass Alert. It's like the League Pass Alert Award. The guy who is most likely to light up your social media or your text with somebody telling you, dude, you got to turn on the game right now to watch this guy. So the League Pass Alert Award, LPA? LPAA, something like that. I don't know.

I'm just going to say right now, I need a seven-man ballot for bill. We got to, Oh, you want to have it like an all NBA team? No, we've already, we haven't even invented it yet, but I'm just, I'm going to already start lobbying for more slots on my ballot just to make sure. I'm sure people will have ideas for this, but yeah, I, to me, this is a better word than clutch because I don't, the clutch thing is stupid and I don't think anybody likes it and it doesn't make sense to me. It's, it's stat, it's stat driven, which is fine. They just make it stat driven. Just use the algorithm to say who was the most clutch by the statistical.

And we don't need to vote on it. It's just it's by virtue of because we're all looking at those stats anyway. NBA.com stats has the clutch. It's too easy to figure out who it is. There's no there's no discourse. But the LPA award award now there's some discourse alright Howard Beck have fun at the next game tonight thanks Bill good to see you

alright that's it for the podcast thanks to Kyle Creighton and Steve Cerruti for producing as always thanks to Sean Fennessey thanks to Howard Beck don't forget new rewatchables coming on Monday night. Stay tuned for that. Check out youtube.com slash Bill Simmons as well

for all the short and long videos from this podcast and from the rewatchables and from my walk and talks as well. I am definitely doing some walk and talks this weekend. So enjoy the weekend. Great, great, great, great, great sports weekend. Hopefully the weather will get nicer around the country. We'll see. Enjoy the weekend.

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