The Bill Simmons Podcast - NBA West Sleepers, Rich NFL Announcers, and the ‘Euphoria’ Awards With Rob Mahoney, Bryan Curtis, and Zoe Simmons

Episode Date: March 2, 2022

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Rob Mahoney to discuss Western Conference sleeper teams including the Mavericks and the Nuggets. They also discuss the third-place Grizzlies and the electric Ja Morant, concerns for the Warriors, and more (2:13). Then Bill talks with Bryan Curtis about NFL broadcasters changing networks, the search for the next great NFL broadcaster, skyrocketing salaries, and more (31:05). Finally Bill is joined by his daughter, Zoe, for the ‘Euphoria’ Awards, in which they hand out awards for Season 2 of HBO’s ‘Euphoria’ (1:08:36). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Rob Mahoney, Bryan Curtis, and Zoe Simmons Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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On Monday, that gimmick is done. I had a great time. We had a lot of fun talking about some really, really, really dysfunctional movies. The Ice Storm Podcast, I think we broke the record for longest premature ejaculation podcast we've had on the Ringer Podcast Network. Very proud of that. Take that record to my grave. Also on the Ringer Podcast Network, I hope you're listening to Plain English with Derek Thompson because he has absolutely been crushing it during this Ukraine conflict. I've learned a ton. You will learn a ton.

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and to the college generation. And we're going to do some awards. We had a good time. She made me nervous a couple times. I'm not going to lie. It's all next. First, our friends from pro gym All right, Rob Mahoney is here from the Ringer Podcast Network and the ringer.com.

You can hear him on the Ringer NBA show on Wednesdays. We're going to talk about Denver and Dallas. The West is weird. You look at it, Phoenix, we're taping this, it is 1040 Pacific time on Tuesday morning. So some of these stands are going to change. But it's basically Phoenix cruising to the one seed. Yeah.

Golden State, Memphis, Topsy Turvy for the two seed. There'll be two or three. Utah seems in pretty good shape at four. They got a two and a half game lead over Dallas and Denver at five, six. And now it's time to start looking at Dallas and Denver specifically, which is what you wanted to do. Because one of them is going to be 5, one of them is going to be 6. I'm guessing one of them is going to be playing Golden State

because I think Memphis is going to leapfrog Golden State the longer Draymond stays out, which means the other one will play Utah. And I think at some point, and maybe it'll start today, we'll be looking at Dallas and Denver as the sleeper teams in the West. Are we there yet? I think we're there. And a lot of it has to do with the Warriors in particular, looking a little vulnerable. I mean, both of those teams, Dallas and Denver, both beat the Warriors recently. Dallas this week, Denver before the break. And if I'm either of those teams, we've

officially entered the weirdos doing game theory part of the season, right? This is when we start looking at playoff matchups. This is when we start thinking about this stuff. You have to think seriously, do I want to face the prospect of bumping up against the Suns, who I think are pretty definitively the best

team in the NBA so far this season when healthy, or do you want to, as you mentioned, run through that one-two punch of, do we think we can beat both Memphis and Golden State? To me, I think if you want to win one playoff round and you like the matchup with Utah, that's probably still the easiest way to break through as a bottom seed, in the bottom part of the bracket. If you want to get to the Western Conference Finals, though, I think that two-three way is the way to break through as a bottom seed in the bottom part of the bracket. If you want to get to the Western Conference Finals, though, I think that 2-3 way

is the way to go. And you're hoping that you don't get the apocalyptic John Morant games and you're hoping Draymond Green isn't 100% healthy, but I think you have a chance there if you're Denver or Dallas. Well, the other piece is Denver's 0-4 against Utah this year.

Not great. Dallas is 0-2 against Utah. Utah was the team I was looking at as the weak one in the herd, the one that the Jaguar is going to be trying to get. Yep. I still kind of feel that way, but I almost throw the records out with Denver because we know when they get to the playoffs, their team is going to be different.

It really is. All indications are Jamal Murray comes back and I think that's going to make a dramatic difference for them to have one more guy, especially like a guy at the end of games. Their offense is already pretty good. They have the, you could argue, the best offensive player in the league.

The Dallas 0-2 against Utah. I watched that game the other night. Utah's tough because it's almost like it depends on what the refs have decided during the game, how much Gobert's going to get away with. Sure. And you're watching, like, Luka's just not getting calls. And then he finishes the game.

He just takes a bunch of 30-footers and they don't go in and Dallas loses. But Dallas-Utah, if that's where we're headed, I think is such a weird matchup series, right? On both ends. I don't even know who it's weirder for. I think Dallas has a better shot in that series than 0-2 would suggest.

And some of that is, as you're mentioning, it's the officiating and how it's called. Some of it is just the dynamics of Luka in a playoff series versus Luka in the regular season. It can be very different things. He's proven to be the kind of perimeter guy who can really pick you apart. And that's what Denver has been missing,

especially in those matchups. I mean, if you don't have the perimeter pieces to kind of move things around and pick your matchups that you want to attack and do that kind of stuff, like Denver, they really don't right now. I mean, they're a skeleton crew, especially on the perimeter.

I mean, it's basically Jokic. Jokic is the perimeter guy. Exactly. And Jokic can do so much in that matchup, but ultimately it's going to come down to, like, is Austin Rivers going to hit the corner three? Is Bones Highland both playing and on and electric that night? Like, what are you getting

from these random guard minutes that they've had to kind of pencil in? Very different if it's Jamal Murray, who we're now entering into, I think, month 11 of his ACL rehab, of his absence. So different if it's Jamal Murray, who, you know, we're now entering into, I think, month 11 of his ACL rehab, of his absence. So we'll see if and when

he becomes available. Michael Porter Jr. reportedly is going to be cleared for contact pretty soon. Could play as soon as this month. Things could get interesting for Denver very quickly. I'm a little more dubious supporter.

We'll see. Murray, it makes sense. It's a 10- to 12-month injury. He's young. You're going to heal a little faster when you're young. He's traveling with the team, which I think is a great sign. There seems like there's an inner confidence with the team that he's coming back soon. He's been practicing before games. And it would make sense to me that he'd come back. Could he play 35 minutes a game? No, but get 25 minutes out of them. That's a bonus.

The Denver thing, I want to compare Denver and Dallas in some ways because in a weird way, you think of them as the same team and they're really not. They are built around these two incredible foreign guys. These guys that are just unlike really any player we've had

in the history of the NBA. And both of them are on benders right now. Luka's 33-10-10 in his last 13. He's over 40% from three in the last 13, which if he's shooting over 40%, you're now talking about a 35 points a game guy. Jokic just for the year is 26-14-8. And I made the MVP case for him last week. But what's interesting about them, Denver's pace is much faster.

You would think with Jokic, they would be slower, but their pace is faster than Dallas. I mean, they're 21st in pace, which isn't like lightning fast, but Dallas is 30th in pace. Dallas is, and it's because of Kidd, and it's because of the style they want. They're slow.

When you watch them, they're very deliberate. They're like a 2022 version of a 90s team. Where they want their games to be like 102 to 99. They want 20 second possessions. And they're 25th in points per game, but they're second in points allowed. But the 30th in pace, I was shocked by it because I was like, they're slow. I wonder how slow they are. They're the slowest.

Some of that I think you get into, like, this is the way we want to play because, like it or not, it's the way that Luka is going to play a lot of times. He does have that thing that James Harden has done in stages of his career where he wants to bring up the ball, control the possession, set things up,

go through one, two, three different pick and rolls on the way to creating a very high quality shot. It's hard to knock it too much, but does he leave some points on the table not doing the quick outlets that a guy like Harden will do at his best? That guys like Jokic will do? That some of the other

best passers and playmakers will do? I think that's a yes too. Like that is one area where Luka can stand to improve, not even just running himself. Just like, can he be a little, can he channel his inner Kyle Lowry at times and get things going for

some of the more athletic guys on that team? Because Dallas does have some long wings who can run the floor. Well, and then you add Dinwiddie to it. And there was a game a couple nights ago where both Dinwiddie and Bertans were really good. I think Bertans was like six for eight from three. But you have Brunson, you have Dinwiddie. So you could push the ball if you wanted to. And I wonder, they're a team that feels like they're, if we have 22 games left, right? There's not a huge sample size. But at the same time, we have a bunch of teams kind of in flux, in motion, in the right ways. I think Denver is one of them. And I think Dallas is another one. Brooklyn, obviously. Then you have Philly, who Philly kind of feels like they know who they are already,

even though Harden just showed up. But the Dallas, what I want to see from them potentially is how small are they going to go? Are they going to play those guys at the same time at the end of the games? Are they going to be malleable at the end of the games? Could they go small ball, bigger ball? And then what you just said about the transition stuff, is this just going to be their pace? Are they just going to be deliberate? Is it going to be like watching a quarterback go to the line and bring the play clock down to four seconds and check and look both sides and really try to control the clock? Or are they going to dabble both ways? Because I'm with you. I think Luka in transition is spectacular. So I understand why this is what Kidd wants. But at the same time, I think that's a nice little thing to have in their back pocket. Who knows?

The size is going to be something to watch because as you mentioned, they've been a good defense for most of the season now. Really solid across all five positions in a lot of these lineups. But the reason they are is because they can defensive rebound. And they've been able to pull that off, that magic in the hat of being small and gang rebounding. That can get different in the playoffs. That can get a little stressed as teams go to their best lineups more often or playing their best bigs more often. Some of them are playing small

more or less often, depending on what their team looks like. I've got my eye on that for Dallas. Can their defensive rebounding hold up to prop up the fact that they don't have a defensive player of the year candidate on that team. They don't have the one guy who's... They don't have the Draymond Green who is communicated and anchoring at that level.

They've got to all do it together. A lot of those possessions are going to conclude with, can you secure a contested defensive rebound? It's funny that just on paper, they would be Utah's kind of kryptonite team, you'd think, even though they're 0-2 against them this year. But just in general,

like the whole question of Utah is, what happens if a team goes small and they try to play Rudy off the floor? We've been talking about it for three years. Dallas could easily do that. Then you look at Golden State, whole question of Utah is what happens if a team goes small and they try to play Rudy off the floor. It's been, we've been talking about it for three years. Dallas could easily do that. Then you'll get golden state. It's like, what happens if they go against an awesome center?

Well, they might have Denver and, and, and you might have to figure out, Oh, come on, Looney. Good luck.

You're gonna be playing 30 minutes. Like why is it? Come on in. You have six fouls. Uh, Draymond, good luck. But the two teams that on paper have the one piece that the other team

doesn't want to see in Utah-Gold State. I don't like the Denver matchup for Golden State. I really don't. I think there has to be real urgency if you're Golden State to try to hold on to that two seed. I think there are two games up in the loss column, but the wins are the same. But watching

Ja last night, I mean, Ja is like, this is now 19 late 80s Jordan stuff every night. The stuff he was doing last night where it's like, I'm going to get 50 points and San Antonio's like, no, you're not. We're going to double team you. He's like, no, no, I'm actually, I'm going to get my 50.

And he did it. That was like at another level from what I've seen from him. One of the most impressive end-to-end regular season games I think we've seen from anybody, this season especially, maybe in recent history.

The combination of spectacular plays, as you're mentioning, the will to just fight through any pressure, any coverage, any defensive assignment, doesn't really matter for that guy right now. So I don't know if that's kind of the catch in this is like, I'm looking at Golden State and seeing for a two seed for a very good team, an opponent that could be vulnerable. But if you have to go through Memphis to get there, or vice versa, if you know,

depending on how they end up two and three, that's what makes it what makes it challenging. But the Warriors part of that it a lot of it comes back to Draymond and how you feel about his back injury, whether he's going to be healthy and not just on defense, which that goes without saying, he's going to have to guard bigger guys while injured, which is always tough. But if he's not able

to dribble, drive, and attack and be aggressive on offense, that's where we've seen them slump really hard recently. When Steph is off the floor, they just don't have enough guys who are projecting as threats offensively. And you're talking since December 1st, where they're 16 and 11,

they're the last 27. You know, Dallas is 19 and 7, Denver's 19 and 9. It's a pretty big sample size. And all of it is Draymond related. He went out on January 5th. But, you know, I think there's this feeling. I don't think people look at recent record sample size, basically.

And it's important every year. You know, with Golden State, I think people just said, no, no, it's going to be Phoenix and Golden State. It's like, I don't know if Golden State's going to be in that mix. Unless I know that Draymond's 100%. I don't think if Golden State's going to be in that mix unless I know that Jerry Mond's 100%. I don't think they're going to be able to fend some of these teams off. The thing with the two seed, though, you get

to play Minnesota. Minnesota's 17 and 10 in their last 27, but watching them, and I've watched a bunch of them recently, I don't not going to be too afraid of that team in a playoff series. I don't like their decision making and the Russell piece of that team in a playoff series. I don't like their decision making. And the Russell piece of it is just paralyzing

for them. You can see Edwards in the corner now in some of these crunch times where he's just like, this fucking guy. Really? Is he going to do it again? Just the 25-foot step back? That's what we're doing? I just don't trust them. I would want to see them

in a playoff series. They've had a bit of a crisis defensively, too, in terms of what they're doing, how they're covering. Because the system, I mean, they were super aggressive out of the gate

the first couple months of the season until teams started figuring it out. And that's where you get worried. It's like, do you have the personnel to deal with once teams have kind of solved what you want to do?

Yeah. I don't think Minnesota really has that. They have some talented players. They have some explosive scores. A lot of guys you would respect. But not a lot of guys who are going to force you into really challenging second and third level decisions.

Well, with all that said, they are by far the best playing team that we're going to have. It looks like out of those West teams. Because you have... I mean, they're going to have. It looks like out of the, out of those West teams, because you have, I mean, they're going to be the seventh seed unless something dumb happens.

The Clippers are kind of lurking. There are two games behind him in the lost calm. I don't know what we're getting from these Paul George updates where there's like his torn, his torn elbow ligament, his UCL.

It's there. He got another MRI today. It's like that. So he's got a torn, like in baseball, you're out for 15 months with a torn elbow ligament. And then Kawhi, nobody's heard from because he's Kawhi. But the drop-off,

even let's say the Clippers are healthier. So then you have Minnesota and Clippers, two talented teams. And then the drop-off to this disaster of a Lakers team, then New Orleans at 10, whose best player hasn't played all year. So that's going to be a weird a Lakers team. Then New Orleans at 10 whose best player hasn't played all year. So that's gonna be a weird one. Weird plan.

New Orleans has been pretty plucky. They have. They're turning the CJ McCollum situation into something really positive. Again, like them and Portland has played over their head relatively speaking, but I think they're kind of they're packing it in in a different way with Nurkic and his injury situation

and get a slow play that. So I think we have a good look at what the 10 teams are going to be. And as you mentioned, Minnesota, head and shoulders above everyone else

unless the Clippers go, oh, surprise, Kawhi Leonard and Paul George are fully healthy and ready to go after all. You know, they're like Netflix, we're going to drop

an entire season without even announcing it kind of strategy. We'll see how that works out for them. Well, we could have, you could see Minnesota. I mean, they may not know. Let's say they play the Clippers in that first playing game, right?

Winner gets the seven seed? Yep. So you could see Minnesota playing the Clippers losing, then playing the Lakers winning, and then having to play Phoenix. Yeah. Which would be kind of, that'd be not awesome.

But the Minnesota getting the seventh seed leaves the door open for a 2-7 matchup between Minnesota and Memphis, which would be kind of like an NBA Twitter league pass wet dream. Two teams that have been really fun to watch this year, but I don't think they're

necessarily on the America radar. But you would have just all the young talent in that game with Edwards and Towns and Russell and then all the Memphis guys, obviously, and then Ja, who's become the breakout star of the season.

That would be a fun one. And Edwards would be talking a lot of shit, I think. And if we can give some programming advice, do not relegate that series to NBA TV. No.

Those are young stars who should be front and center on the NBA stage. That would be a really fun series. As you mentioned, two teams that have been highly entertaining, very competent,

and in a lot of ways need each other as a playoff matchup. It's like, let these two teams with young guys duke it out before they have to go against like the real veteran steeled

playoff contenders. I think that would be a really good way to kind of set the stage for the second round. In general, I think our advice to the league would be just put all of your stuff behind jaw right now. It's a good bet. I think you have a moment here with him

where you could really blow him up in a real way. And I know he's big already, but there's a whole other level for him to go. I think night to night, he's been the most fun guy to watch in the league, which is saying something because we have so many good players right now. But I was like, right now,

best offensive weapons. And this goes back to our Dallas-Denver discussion. Jokic, Durant, Luka, and Embiid, I think, are on a plane at the top, right? Of just like awesome, consistently awesome offensive players. I think that makes sense. Just threatening to move into that class.

And for me, the thing is, is this a league pass? to night? You play a different team. It's hard to get used to what he's doing. Could you plan for it more in a playoff series? Or is this just turning into like a late eighties, Jordan, 2002 Kobe type of situation where it's just like, all right, this guy's now unstoppable. We just have to admit this. I do feel like you could game plan some stuff because we've seen these different teams put walls against them and stuff like that.

But then we've also seen him just dash those plans every time. So I don't know. Do you think that this Memphis team can be game planned for? I think they can be game planned for more than they are currently, but not in a way that's going to stop what Jod does. We've already seen him

as a play-in, play-off type performer in some of those situations. And he's passed every test so far. And I think what makes him different in terms of guards or perimeter players you would put the wall in front of is he's got the floater. He's got some mid-range game.

The three comes and goes, but can be really effective for him. I think what's interesting with him, he might have some stuff to figure out in terms of reading coverages and figuring out exactly how to break you down over seven games. But once he makes even like a half step forward in that regard,

he's so explosive and so unpredictable on the move. It's just going to all that growth is going to be an exponential curve for him relative to even some of these other guys. You know, guys like Luka who have all this talent and skill in the world, he can work off his size, but there's always going to be an uphill battle just because he doesn't

have the first step that a guy like Jod does. And that's just the reality of having that kind of toolbox to work with and what makes him so exciting. And as you mentioned, such a sure bet from the marketability of the league and the kind of personality he is. I mean, he's the whole package as a player. I think it's becoming really important. I look at,

Curry was the last guy that hit like this during a season in an organic way where it's just like, I've never seen this before. You know, and we, we've seen a lot of good players.

Like I, I think Jokic is really special. I love watching Jokic, um, Luca, all the stuff he does. And Bede has been completely overpowering. Durant's the best scoring forward we've had.

There's an unpredictability that job brings to the table that is just unlike anyone else in the sport right now. And it's very similar to what the Jordan Kobe stuff was like way back. And I don't mind throwing him in those sentences anymore after what I saw last night, because last night was outrageous. The Spurs did not want him to get 50 and he just kind of figured out how to get to the basket anyway. He did the dunk that he had combined with that inbounds play. Oh my God. To have those things happen

within like 10 minutes of each other or five minutes of each other or whatever, it's like two of the best plays of the season. Yeah. And it feels like he's gaining confidence. And we've seen this with guys after the All-Star break. Sometimes they come out of the All-Star break and it's just, they kind of blossom.

It happened to Davis four years ago, you know, where they just, all of a sudden the game slows down for them. I think it's happening to him. So we're going to, they play the Celtics Friday. I'm going to have Verno on the pod Thursday because I really want to dive into it.

But that Friday game, Celtics-Grizzlies is all of a sudden like a weirdly fun, hmm, are these two teams that we should be taking more seriously in the playoffs kind of match up, right? I like these late challengers. You know, we thought we had a good grasp of the field. Even we were thinking,

okay, what if Philly gets hardened at some point? Like we had all that stuff mapped out and then the Celtics come on strong after their trade for Derek White. The Grizzlies have had incredible stretches this season, but I think Ja with that kind of performance and some of their recent play, I mean, really, they've been building

toward this all season long, but they're just so credible and so hard to take down, even relative to some of these other great teams in the West. I think it's hard to talk yourself out of the Grizzlies at this point, and that really speaks to where they are and what they've been able to put together.

Just incredible roster. And the body language doctor loves the chemistry. Memphis, Golden State, Cleveland, I think, win the chemistry awards this year so far. Would you throw anyone else in there? Those are the top three. Just the teams that so obviously

really like each other. Those make sense. I mean, just the fact that Ja gets a 50-piece and they take a team photo afterwards. I think the body language is to have a field day with that one. Well, the other thing, you think with the situation the league's in right now,

with these guys jumping teams and Harden quits on two teams in 13 months and over and over, teams trying to put together big threes and guys being constantly unhappy in this situation or that one and intimating they might leave, like the stuff LeBron pulled at All-Star Weekend.

And then you have Ja in the small market. It's very similar to the KD 2010-11 range with this young little possible homegrown champ that's brewing, led by this guy who's like this beloved teammate who plays hard every single game and who's like this beloved teammate who plays hard every single game and who seems like he's getting better and better i would be moving the league behind that guy and some other ones obviously you still have curry you still the yokage luka combo

kd when he's out there is still magical yannis i think is kind of the East Coast, Eastern Conference version of John in a lot of ways. But John is the guy that, you know, like kids in LA, in Kansas City, and Florida. Like I could see him becoming like the Jersey guy. I wouldn't be surprised

if he was the top selling Jersey in like a month. I can see the Jersey. I can see the signature shoe. I mean, you can see it all coming together for a guy like him. And I like, I actually like the Giannis comparison as you were saying, you can see it all coming together for a guy like him. And I actually like the Giannis comparison, as you were saying.

Giannis is kind of the East Coast version, or Eastern Conference version. Just because there's kind of an overlap in their personalities in terms of the defiance that they play and operate with. And maybe that goes hand-in-hand with what you're talking about. If you're going to stick it out with one team, as Giannis has for as long as

he has, you have to be a little bit defiant. You have to play a little bit defiant. And I like the presence of that kind of person on the scene in the league. John Morant interviews are sensational. He's such an incredible draw

as a personality. And the fact that you're stacking that on top of probably the most exciting young guard, or maybe just the most exciting guard in the NBA right now. That's the kind of thing you have to get behind as a league. Also weird, the symmetry.

If you're really going ceiling for Ja, the symmetry of, you know, you think like Durant, Odin goes right in front of him. We have the big debate. Odin goes first, Durant goes second. Same thing, Ja, Zion. Oh my God, everyone wants Zion. Oh, your consolation prize is Jha.

And then Jha is like, if you're doing this over again, Jha is obviously the first pick. But this will happen sometimes. The guy after the guy becomes the bigger guy. You mentioned Milwaukee. Raseel and I talked about them a little on Sunday. I'm officially at the concern point with them.

Where are you? Edging there? Yeah. I would say I'm, you know, probably more of a believer, generally speaking, of Milwaukee than most in the season that they've had.

But some of the, like their second half problems, some of the defensive issues, like it's kind of starting to coalesce in a way that's inarguable. And it's just getting more and more complicated

if the Sixers continue to look this good that's really the biggest problem for them we'll we'll see with the Sixers they have some

some good good games coming up and I think it's one thing against Minnesota and the Knicks but we'll I want to see a team

really try to punch them in the mouth a couple times and see what happens Minnesota and the Knicks was a really good soft launch for the Harden experiment yeah 100% you know But we'll, I want to see a team really try to punch them in the mouth a couple of times and see what happens. Minnesota and the Knicks was a really good soft launch for the Harden experiment. Yeah, 100%. You know, good matchups, good styles to kind of start that off against. But yeah, let's see what it looks like when teams start really teching in on the Harden and Bede pick and roll and really trying to dissect it and pick it apart.

I mean, it's a tough thing to do, but somebody's got to try. Tybal, get ready for some open threes. Hope you enjoy being nobody within five feet from you. So if you had to say West Finals right now, who would you go with? I mean, I think Phoenix is there. So it's really just a question of the other spot. I'm inclined to pick Memphis right now.

Wow, interesting. Maybe this is a particularly down week for me in terms of my opinions of Warriors basketball, but I don't know. I'm more concerned about the Draymond situation than seems to be the consensus. I know there's a lot of optimism he's going to be back out there soon. I'm right next to you with the concern.

I'm with you. It's just one of those things where there is no safety net. As you were mentioning, aside from playing Kevon Looney 40 minutes and James Wiseman 8, that's kind of what you got. And so that leaves me very nervous to be a contending team this late in the season that I don't know what I'm

getting out of Draymond. I don't know what I'm getting out of Klay. I don't know if the no-stef lineups are going to work at all. That doesn't feel necessarily like a safe bet for a conference finals to me. And we have a one-third of the season sample size now

where they're not one of the top five teams, at least for the last third of the season, which makes me a little nervous. Yeah, I think Denver is the biggest wildcard team to me because Jokic is that good.

Yeah. And if Murray comes back and can look relatively close to Murray again, Yeah, I think Denver is the biggest wildcard team to me because Jokic is that good. And if Murray comes back and can look relatively close to Murray again, now I'm intrigued. In the East, I have no idea who the F knows. Honestly, Brooklyn, sure. Philly, maybe. You're going down the line. I'm not writing off Milwaukee yet.

I'm concerned. But the only one I... There's been a lot of stuff going down the line. I'm not writing off Milwaukee yet. I'm concerned. But the only one I... You know, there's been a lot of stuff lately about the odds. Russo talked about it here on Sunday with the odds with the Celtics. That one I'm confused by. I don't see a scenario

where they're one of the five best teams in the East. It's too crowded for them. And there are too many teams that I think are similar enough defensively that can be just as good at what the Celtics do best to kind of neutralize some of what makes them special.

Again, they've been incredible over this recent stretch, but it's so tough to make it through that conference alive when you can't fully trust your offense for 48 minutes a game, which that kind of seems like where they are even still. All right.

I think we hit everything before we go though. Give me one crazy take. You're always measured. You're thoughtful in your takes. You're not a crazy take guy, but do you have anything deep down you wanted to get out about the season where it's like, I just in my soul,

I feel this, but I'm afraid to say it. Is picking Memphis for the conference finals. Not crazy enough for you? That's pretty crazy. I haven't actually heard somebody go all in on that one. That's pretty good. I don't know if I want to be penciled into the all-in corner.

I reserve the right to change my mind in a week. Yeah, I think I'm getting there. I think they have to have the two seed for me to believe that. That Memphis would? Yeah, I think they would have to have two game segments at home for me to feel 100% comfortable with that. And then the job piece, this is why I've never bet on it, just the way he plays just puts the fear of God in me at all times.

And when you're up in the air that often and you're banging into bodies that often and you're falling sideways that often, at some point, luck some point there's luck becomes involved and that's what worries me with that. But I really enjoy watching that team. All right, Mahoney, we'll hear you on a ringer NBA show tomorrow, right? Absolutely. All right, cool. Thanks for coming up.

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Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. All right, Brian Curtis is here. You can hear him on the PressBox podcast. You can read him on TheRinger.com. We want to talk football announcers. There's this weird thing happening with sports media right now. There are a bunch of suitors in the space. And after Tony Romo got a lot of money last year,

I think it was like $18 million a year, we thought that might be an aberration. It was not. It looks like ESPN is going to pay Troy Aikman even more than that. And now everybody's jockeying. There's names being thrown around. Brian, what the hell is happening?

Bill, welcome to the announcer empowerment era. I mean, seriously. What's happening? Well, I think two things are happening. One is it's always good when you bring another bidder to the table. And announcers have had NBC, CBS, ESPN, and Fox. Oh, hey, here comes Amazon. So Troy Aikman in his free agent year could have three bids, Fox, Amazon, ESPN.

The second part of it, and I think this has gotten a little bit ignored and the coverage is espn is freaking desperate yeah espn has had years and years to figure out a monday night football booth so they're not just bidding they've got a briefcase full of money that they are ready to give troy achman and apparently another one they're ready to give Joe Buck or Al Michaels to say, please fix this problem that we've been totally unable to fix ourselves. Well, there's a third piece, right? Well, let's start with the Aikman piece. A lot of Romo love out there.

Romo's the guy. It's the best one out there. Oh, we got to keep Romo. Here's 18 million a year. Was it a coincidence to you that Troy Aikman, in my opinion, had the best announcing year of his career last year? I thought Troy Aikman was great. We talked about this multiple times on this podcast with Sal and a couple others. It was a more assertive Troy Aikman. He was willing to throw quarterbacks under the bus in ways that I haven't heard him do before

and was just way more critical, way more insightful. Dare I say, I thought he was the best announcer of all the color guys last year. Did Roma light a fire under him? Yeah. Can you imagine saying that a few years ago? No, I would not have imagined saying that. I always thought he was like a B minus. I

thought he played it safe. He was down the middle. He played it nice. When he was critical, he always had to kind of read between the lines. That was not Troy Aikman last year, Brian. You're absolutely right, Bill. As Troy Aikman used to say before he became Salty Aikman. I completely agree. And just imagine if you're Troy Aikman, 2017, Tony Romo comes in. He's another Dallas Cowboys quarterback. He did not win jack squat compared to what you want as a Dallas Cowboys quarterback. And all of a sudden, all these media critics are going, Tony Romo, he's the best announcer. He may be the best football announcer ever. Yeah. This is is amazing he's doing

something you troy can't do and i don't know if that was in troy's mind over the last couple of years but it sure sounded like it because we got as you point out the salty acheman we got the acheman before jimmy g threw the ball to the rams and that last drive going uh too bad for the too bad for the 49ers they gotta throw the ball with the ball with Jimmy G here because we know that's doomed. We got Aikman saying, you know what? I'd love to be announcing this week instead of that crappy Bucks-Eagles game I got assigned in the playoffs. I'd rather be doing San Francisco-Dallas right now.

And it's funny because I think that allowed him to connect to the audience in a way he had not done for almost two decades on the air. Right? Romo connects because he's enthusiastic oh jim we gotta go and he go yeah here we go jim yeah i'm excited for football and that guy's excited for football so i like this acheman connected through saltiness oh troy acheman three super bowl rings willing to just absolutely crush a quarterback like jimmy g on the air remember last year with jared go, and he was crushing him on the air so much

so that Mike Silver got mad at it. Oh, you're being too mean to Jared Goff. And I think that really helped him connect. It really did. I did the Jalen Rose on you just there. Your Romo has inspired Aikman take was your take, but I formed it in a phrase of a question like it was my take. I'd like to apologize. Unlike Jalen, who just steals other people's takes and then

rephrases them as his own take. You were the one who pointed out the Romo Aikman thing. And then you throw in the Dallas Cowboys piece of it too, where Aikman was a three-time Super Bowl champion, Romo won nothing. And I do think it lit a fire under him. So, all right. So we've unpacked the Aikman piece of this. Is Aikman worth that amount of money? No, but no announcer is, but that's not the point. People have asked me in my life, they're like, what?

Like I was on a text thread with a bunch of friends and they're like, what the fuck is going on with this? Why does anybody think an announcer is worth 18 million, 19 million a year? They, I'm watching the games anyway. I don't care who the announcer is.

Right? Here's my theory. I'm going to throw this at you. You haven't heard this theory from me. I think it's worse for the network, whether it's ESPN, NBC, Fox, whoever, when they have the boring crew, the crew that sparks no real anything that doesn't

feel weighty or famous in any way. It's not like it's bad. It's not like we're not going to watch the games. Like a good example, Steve Levy, solid announcer. Brian Greasy, not sure why he was in that booth. Louis Riddick, he's fine. The three of them together, completely forgettable and fine. They were fine. They weren't great. They weren't that entertaining. None of them were really that famous. There was a lack of kind of big-timeness from every broadcast that you felt. And this is what ESPN has struggled with really since Gruden left. I thought Gruden was, I thought he was insufferable, but at least he was famous, right? There was a fame that came with him.

And my theory is networks are so afraid of feeling like they have an irrelevant or unimportant or not famous enough announcing crew that they're just willing to overpay to take that conversation off the table. So for ESPN, Trey Aikman's not worth $18 million a year. But you know what is worth $18 million a year? People saying every year, eh, ESPN's broadcast doesn't feel big enough. So now you have Joe Buck and Trey Aikman. Let's say that's a combined $35 million a year.

That conversation is now off the table. And if you're one of these networks, what do you care? It's a rounding error. You're spending billions of dollars on football. What do you care if you're spending 35 million on two announcers? That's like throwing the fucking waiter a tip at the end of a $10,000 dinner. That's my theory. What do you think? Yeah. And I think we can even go further into the psychology of ESPN because remember, this was the network that when John Skipper left, spent all this time trying to repair their relationship with the NFL. They were, Burt Magnus was using the term reset,

just like the Americans did with the Russians way back when Obama was president, right? We need the reset with the NFL. So you worked so hard, right? You put the combine on ABC. You just worked Roger Goodell, worked the NFL league office. You got a better package. We think of games coming up. You finally have a Superbowl in five years, ESPN's first ever Superbowl. Well, now you got to get the announcers, right? Right. Like the worst thing that you could do would be then to fumble who

calls the game. Yeah. You got all the way to the mountaintop. You figured everything else. Now we just got to figure out the right announcers. But to your point about paying these guys too much, I was talking to Shoemaker about this yesterday. Well, since announcers don't bring any viewers to a game, on the one hand, you could say, oh, they're worth not very much. On the other hand, you could also say, as long as we're talking about funny money, they're worth anything.

Right. Right. Because you're not, there's no relationship between, it's not like a sitcom star or the cast of succession where you say like, we're going to pay them this much and then we're going to make this much off the game. They don't have anything to do with it. So why aren't they worth 18 million? Why aren't they worth 25 million? I honestly don't know the answer to that. It's like the billionaire birthday party thing, right? If a billionaire could have an awesome birthday party for himself, but if he goes and he gets the white stripes for his birthday party and spends $7 million a year on the white stripes, now people are like, holy shit, what a birthday.

And it's like, what does he care? It's like a rounding error for them. I think the last few years for ESPN with everything that happened in the booth was pretty embarrassing. And they had over and over again, inferior booths. And I'm going back to when they put Sean McDonough and John Gruden together. Sean McDonough, a really good broadcaster, probably a Hall of Famer. Him and John Gruden were absolutely awful together. It was like watching a couple in a TV show that you know they're going to break up. They just had no chemistry at all. And then you have the Witten thing. Then you have, basically, ESPN resets their announcing crew and they're like, we just want a professional broadcast.

That's how far their expectations had fallen. They didn't even care about being entertaining anymore. But over and over again, they've kind of been grasping. I actually, I still feel like the Kornheiser experiment could have worked. And I've talked about this in the past. I just don't think he had chemistry with Tirico. But I think if it was the right announcers, I think that one could work. But going backwards, every time somebody has entered the football fray, they have always overpaid for the announcers, right?

Fox did it with Madden and Summerall. NBC comes in. They spend money like it's, you know, a benefit concert with superstars. They're just like, we're getting Fred Goodell, we're getting John Madden, we're getting Al Michaels. We'll get the best side of the reporters. Like Dick Ebersole's like, I don't care.

I'm just splurging on everything. And I think there's a fear that Amazon is going to go Michaels. We'll get the best side of the reporters. Like Dick Ebersole is like, I don't care. I'm just splurging on everything. And I think there's a fear that Amazon is going to do that too with the announcers. So it goes back to your original point. You always want more suitors for whatever you're doing. Amazon comes in. That just blows this up. Now you have five people that would have football. But there's really only three good color guys?

Yeah. I mean, we're now we're, we're now, we're now to the point where, and I saw there was a report the other day, I think it was in New York post that maybe Amazon wants Kirk Herbstreet to do Thursday night football. You know, we're sort of running out of people. Sean McVay was an idea. He said, no, your reservations about Sean Payton, which are also my reservations about Sean Payton. You put on Twitter the other day. So who's going to be the next guy? We have to talk about that Sean Payton thing later. Cause I think it's a really important combo. We've had it before, but I think we have to

have it again. Um, there's three guys, there's Collinsworth, there's Romo and there's Aikman. And I, I wouldn't even necessarily have put Aikman into that group two years ago, but now I think he belongs. If you're Fox and you're like, this is great, we're saving so much money not having to pay these two guys $30 million, people are going to watch us anyway. Two years from now, they're going to care.

And by the way, I thought Burkhart and Greg Olson were awesome together yeah I really enjoyed that broadcast is it big enough is it gonna feel big enough when those guys are doing the NFC title game

and the Super Bowl this year and the Super Bowl don't forget I forgot about that so you have let's say NFC title game let's say it's

I don't know Rams at San San Francisco. And it's like, here's Kevin Burkhart and Greg Olson. I'll be excited because I think that'll be a good broadcast. But what is my dad going to think? What is the mom in Kansas City, the 49-year-old mom who's like, watches three football games a year, and she's like, where's Trey Aikman? I think they think about this stuff. I think it can go either way, though, because is that person going to be worried because there's not a super famous ex-quarterback on the screen, or are they just even going to notice who the announcers are at all? I think it goes back to the original point.

Does it really matter? And for some reason it felt like it mattered with Monday night football, but I think it's because it was Monday night football. Yeah. Because we grew up with like Monday night football is always going to take the most chances and it's got this legacy. And now it's like, Oh,

here's Brian greasy. And it just didn't feel big enough. But I, for Fox, like I actually think they should zag. I think Burkhart and Greg Olson would be ready to be the number one guys.

And maybe you add Aqib Tlaib and you go three-man booth and that could be super fun. I also, I'm on the record, if it was Gus Johnson and Aqib Tlaib as the number one team at Fox, I would be delighted and overjoyed. I think the interesting thing about Fox is this.

A couple of years ago when that Tony Romo contract was signed, first of all, that's just the bomb that started all this. That is the thing that put us on this trajectory. When he got $17, $18 million a year, more than double what some of his colleagues were making. Everybody's like, whoa. But I remember there was this sense inside Fox that said, we are not going to be held up like that. We cannot let ourselves be put in that position. And the way we're not going to let ourselves be put in that position is we're going to have a really good number two announcer.

It's going to be like our backup quarterback. So that if we get somebody like Trey Aikman, and at the time I think they thought Troy was going to go be a GM or a president of a team, maybe. But if we got this, if Troy Aikman gets a big offer, we can be like, we have a plan here. This can work. This can be really good. Now, you're right. It may not be a guy who's like a Hall of Fame quarterback, but this can work.

So, again, if they're going to stick to their plan you look at what buck's going to get you wonder is it worth having him because he calls a world series two for fox right but you have to come in and maybe you're willing to do plan b even if it's not glamorous well we've talked about this before the the ultimate example is brent musburger jim nance in the, uh, sure. In 1990 where it was like, my God, they let Brent go. And then it's like, Jim Nance just steps in and it's fine. I think Joe Buck, I think is the best play by play guy right now. But if he leaves and they replace him with Kevin Burkhart, they'll be fine. And I think he could do both sports and they'll be fine. The other thing that's interesting. So in basketball,

we don't have super famous people announcing the games. Think about TNT the last however many years. It's been either Reggie Miller, Steve Kerr. There was some Mike Fratello in there. This year, it's Stan Van Gundy. It's not like they're saying to themselves, we got to get Dwayne Wade in here. Now there's more travel for NBA. I think it's a harder schedule. So the super famous ex-NBA player is probably less likely to do it. But for the most part, with NBA caller guys and every time

they've tried to shoehorn in the legends, they've usually been either bad or really hilariously bad, right? Isaiah Thomas, Magic, people like that. At the same time, I think Dwayne Wade is good. I really do. I think I actually, he's a solid studio guy. He's not great. He's solid. But as a game guy, I think he's really good. He's quick. He's funny. Like I enjoyed him in the all-star game, but they're never going to be able to convince him to be the game guy. And they don't really care because people aren't necessarily watching for the announcers, which is weird because they're talking almost more in the NBA than they do in

NFL. But like, you know, he's doing the game. Yeah. I think I'd be, I think NBA announcers, you could argue are taught the color guy.

Cause there's more dead time, right? There's less commercials. There's more like, um, fat there's free throws where you just have to kill time for like 90 seconds. Yeah. I always think of it as a play by play announcer sport though.

NBA. Yeah. The guy in charge is Mike Breen. That's the voice of the game. Yeah, you're right. So good point. So that maybe the play by play guy is even more important with NBA.

Cause you really feel it. You really feel it if somebody's not steering the car correctly in NBA. Yeah, and we got a lot of really great NBA play-by-play guys right now. We got Breen, we got Kevin Harlan, we got Ian Eagle. You don't look at that list and go, hey, we're not being well-served here, right? There's a bunch

of them. Yeah, I agree. Whereas football, Burkhardt, I think, could do the Fox thing. We'll take a break. Let's come back and talk about Sean Payton. Okay, so two coaches were thrown around as possible color guys. Sean Payton, Sean McVay.

Sean McVay took his name out of the ring. Sean McVay, we have evidence, could actually potentially be good at this because he did a podcast for us, Flying Coach, with Peter Schrager, ironically, for the ringer. But if you listen to that podcast, you're like, oh, this guy could do this. There's no question this guy could be a talking head and be really good at it.

Sean Payton, a little more suspicious. And I always go back to something we've discussed many times on this podcast, on my old Grant Lund podcast. The press conferences and the interviews are usually the indicator in football and in basketball if there's something there or not. I've never come away from a Sean Payton anything thinking,

ah, get this guy in the booth. I'm not saying he's bad, but it's never been a get this guy in the booth thing, which was the argument with Breeze last year, where it's like, Breeze, big bidding war for Breeze. Like, really? Watch Breeze get interviewed? I don't get this.

And then he did the games and he was bad. So the Payton thing, I don't know if he'd be bad. I don't think he would be that good, especially if he feels like he's going to get a job in a couple of years. The best case scenario I can think of this for him would be when Pat Riley was the studio guy for NBC with Costas. I think for either a year or two years. And he was good.

And it wasn't a case of like, I am being cautious because I might have my next job, whatever. Danny Ainge is another one. Danny Ange was good when he announced, even though he knew he'd be a GM or a coach. I think Peyton is clearly going to coach. I just can't see him being super critical during NFL games. Not to mention, I'm not sure how much of a personality he is either. So I'm thumbs down for this.

Where did you stand? Yeah, I think you hit on the problem, which is when the coaches get the announcing job, they're just auditioning for their next coaching job. You know, so they don't want to say- Like Mark Jacksonitis. Yeah, I mean, so you're sitting there going, you don't actually care about broadcasting. You're using the booth as like your LinkedIn page

to get your next job. I was flipping through Al Michaels' memoir the other day because I was writing about him for the Super Bowl. And there's this whole scene where Bill Parcells almost became the color guy for Monday Night Football in 1999. I think it was after Boomer Esiason. And Al had this conversation with him where he's like, you know what? You can't use this as your halfway house between your coaching jobs. He just quit the Jets. That's totally unfair to us because this is our job.

We want to be good at this. And, of course, Parcells, even when he was coaching, would use a coaching job as a halfway house to his next coaching job, as you know all too well. He was always playing the next move. Parcells didn't wind up doing it, and he winds up going to coach the Cowboys a few years later. That's what all these guys do. So unless it's

truly a John Madden where it's like, I quit early, I'm done, I'm never going back to the sideline. I don't want that guy. I think Jeff Van Gundy qualifies for that too because I think he knew he wasn't coaching anymore. He's not going back. He's more candid than maybe I think people realize because he knows. Whereas Mark Jackson, I think there are lines he's not going to cross because he, I think,

still ultimately wants to coach again. The Parcells thing is a good example because I used to love his radio show. He used to do a radio show with Will McDonough that they used to run in Boston. And I used to listen to it on Fridays because it would help me with gambling because Parcells would drop these gems. And he'd be like, I don't like the way they match up. But

if they take a back and be like, Whoa, that actually bore out. So I would go out of my way to listen to it. That was, that was, uh, I think it was, I think that was right around the same time you're talking about the TV stuff. I think, I think it was late nineties. God, I can't remember, but we've seen these big coaches come in all the time. We saw Bill Walsh. Yep. George, George Seifert was the funniest because I still, it's on YouTube. I don't know. Did I send that to you?

You did. Yeah. Yeah. It was CBS's first year was Nance, Marcus Allen, who is just the classic upright using his hands guy, uh, George Seifert, who quickly lost interest by week three. And then Brent Jones, who's one of the worst studio guys we've ever had in any sport. And it was the most awkward. It's on YouTube.

You could go watch it. But for the most part, the coach thing, Dungy's okay. It's like a B minus C plus. He's okay. He's solid. Coward's okay. Rex Ryan's like, eh yeah but for the most part we haven't seen

these coaches in the nfl come in and be good you know what i've really loved about the last month or so of broadcasting news is the wondering out loud about my future element of it sean payton's done a lot of wondering out loud about my future. Sean McVay did a lot. I saw a clip with Charles Barkley the other day going, you know what? I've said before, I may not be doing it inside the NBA when I'm 60. He's 59 right now. I don't know if I'm going to be doing that. Troy Aikman has been wondering out loud about his future for like three or four years. Maybe I'm going to go run a team. I don't know. Maybe I called my last game at Fox. And when I hear that now, maybe some of these people are truly torn about what they're going to do. But when I hear that, I translate that as, Hey, I'm here. Uh, you want to hire me?

Right. Uh, you want it, want to get in on the bidding for this one, improve my current contract. Want to give me a brand new contract, Make it worth my while. Did you ever wonder aloud about your future at ESPN? Did you have one of those? After I got suspended, I was getting a lot of requests to talk and I didn't talk to anybody. I was in a different situation though, because we had people working for us and I had people that were attached to me. So I felt like if you're just on your own and nobody's attached to you, I can see how you would do the look at me thing. Yeah. Like, right. I don't know. We'll see. I might've written my last trade value column. That's it. That could have been it. We'll never know who the trade value guy is next year. We'll never know what my terrible picks are.

Yeah, I actually do believe Barkley that he might be done. Really? He's been doing it for 20 plus years, yeah. Really? I think he would leave early instead of late, and I think he's made enough money. He's just bored with it? Like he doesn't care about it anymore?

Yeah, sometimes he seems bored. Other times, he's still the best. Like even the other night, the Brooklyn game, and Brooklyn's getting wiped out by the Celtics. And you go to the halftime, and Barkley's like, hey, man,

I like some of the pieces on this Brooklyn team. Watch out when Kyrie and KD come back, because there's stuff here. Like they're, this is good that they're like, he just zagged in a way that I was like, ah, good one. He still has that in him. I think.

Whereas like, you know, countdown now that you should do a usage rate piece about countdown. It's like Greeny, 25 minutes set up for the segment. Stephen A, two minutes. Wilbon, a minute. Jalen, 20 seconds. Back to Greeny to 25 minutes set up for the segment. Stephen A, two minutes. Wilbon, a minute. Jalen, 20 seconds. Back to Greeny to wrap up. Then Stephen A comes back in for another 30. I mean, Stephen A's like Westbrook in 2017

on OKC with the usage rate. Whereas the TNT, the ball still moves in the right ways, I think. And Barkley's still good at it. So you don't think, you don't agree? I think he would leave too early rather than too late. I think maybe, but I always just go back to the

TV thing you and I have talked about with Madden and all these other guys. Nobody really walks away from television. Right, until it's like you're kind of getting half shoved out the door. Yeah, or always shoved out the door. I, or all the way shoved out the door. I thought Madden, the last maybe two years, was definitely slipping.

There's no question. He wasn't, I mean, again, he was such a hire. He wasn't Madden anymore. Yeah. Yeah. But if you watch, I went back and watched the last Super Bowl he did with Al, and he was still really good. Right.

And he could have come back. He was a B-plus. He wasn't an A-plus. He was a B-plus. And he was John Madden, so he could have come back he wasn't an a-plus he was a b-plus and he was john madden so he could have come back for one more deal but very rarely do people walk away from television and again when i hear it i don't know i don't know may have called my last game i just i read that as or i at least ask the question is this negotiating you know is this me

you know maybe barclay's really torn about this, but when I read that, man, there's, there's a lot of wondering out loud right now about all this stuff. And if Sean Payton, by the way, gets a broadcasting job, he's going to be wondering out loud about whether he's going to coach the Cowboys next year or what he's going to do with his life. And again, I read that as a message to future employers. Hey, over here. You know, what's interesting about that? I think I'm year to year at this point. I don't know. Am I doing this a year from now? I'm not positive. Had a really fun ride. Great career. Yeah, who knows? Could this be it for me and Sal? I have a name to throw at

you for football that never gets mentioned, and I don't really understand it. And I actually think he's become severely underrated. Care to guess? Football. This is a current person? Yeah, want to play 20 questions? Yeah, okay. So Mike Tomlin's overmentioned, so it's not him. No, he's coaching.

He's in the league right now. Somebody who's announcing right now. Oh, who's announcing right now? Yeah, he's an announcer right now. And you feel is undervalued? He's in the media right now? Somebody who's announcing right now. Oh, who's announcing right now? Yeah. He's an announcer right now. And you feel is undervalued. He's in the media right now. And I think he's the most undervalued guy for this discussion for talking Romo Collins or at the Aikman. And he's announcing, he is actually calling football games or in a studio. No, he's a media media person right now. So there's the tell. Okay. So now I'm going through like the serious XM NFL channel. Like where are you finding people?

I'll just give it to you. I think Boomer's really good at games. Oh, should we bring Boomer back? I think he's legitimately good. I don't know if you've ever been in the car listening to him announce a game on the radio. He's one of the best guys. Like it just hands down, he is.

He had the huge radio run with Marv. Remember where he did Monday Night Football with him for a long time? I just think he's really good. And for some reason, I think he's the best. He's the only guy, if I'm trapped under a boulder and forced to watch that five-man CBS pregame show, Boomer's the one guy where I'm like,

I'm kind of interested in his takes. But when you hear him announce, he's really good. He breaks shit down. He's, to me, like on the Collinsworth level. And I think for some reason, maybe he doesn't want to travel for the games or whatever, but that's the guy, if I was Amazon or Fox and I want it, I still want a big name. Cause I do think he's a big name. I don't think his biggest name is Aikman, but he's a big name.

Was it just the bad experience with Al? Was that why he never quite got like another game run like that in a big time spot? When are you doing the oral history of what the hell happened to Al and Boomer? Because that's like one of the best media feuds that we've had. Yeah, I think they kind of did it out loud in real time. But yeah, happy to go back and... Just go back. Do the anniversary piece.

You know, when I interviewed Al the other day on the podcast, he said he thought it was because Boomer had retired too soon. And he really wanted to play more football. And so he was, it's an interesting one where we talk about guys coming off the sidelines to be announcers. He actually was like, oh, maybe I did it a smidge too soon. Hmm. Well, I think he's good. My guess is he's, you know know he's the W fan morning guy

he's on the CBS show probably making good coin and he's probably happy but out of all the dudes out there I think that's the one that has the upside of the people who are in the league to me it's Tomlin

and Phil Rivers if we're really going to be like who can actually be good Tomlin will be Tomlin will Phil Rivers. If we're really going to be like, who can actually be good? Tomlin will be, Tomlin will be good at whatever he wants to be at. But if he wanted to be announcer, he'd be great. And then Rivers is just sitting there for somebody, you know? Um, and then I think Peyton Manning would be really good at it. Yes. I don't think there's any question. And I would rather he did that than the Manning cast. But it doesn't seem like they'll ever do the travel. Now, who could rule out them doing private jets every week and making it super easy for them?

My guess is they're trying to put together a business, though. So it actually makes more sense for them to do the Manning cast stuff. Yeah, and the Manning cast for UFC and all that other stuff. Don't you think, by the way, Fox, now they have an opening, is just calling everybody? It's possible. Well, I heard Tom Brady's name mentioned, and I didn't know if that was serious or not

because all due respect to the GOAT, thanks for the six Super Bowls, he's not going to be a good announcer. He won't say anything. I don't see it. I think he'll be too careful. I think he'd be too worried about backlash, and I think it would be a good announcer. He won't say anything. I don't see it. I think he'll be too careful. I think he'd be too worried about backlash.

And I think it would be a little like that Joe Montana style of just kind of being paralyzed because you don't want to actually say anything. I don't think he'd be good. You didn't see enough on Tom versus time. He's actually pretty good when he talks about himself. I just don't think he'd be critical of other players. Who do we think's on the list? This is what I want to get from you. So if you're Fox right now,

you have an opening, you have Greg Olson sitting there, but let's make, let's do the, let's make 10 phone calls just to check. Who's your 10 phone calls. Brady's probably a phone call. That's Tom.

Tomlin's my first. Okay. Hey, Tomlin, you don't have a quarterback. Just take two years off. Reboot. Here's 40 million for two years. Okay. Hey, Tomlin, you don't have a quarterback. Just take two years off. Reboot. Here's $40 million for two years

and you can go back to coaching. Phil Rivers' phone call? Oh, yeah. Yes. 100%. Has it gotten too weird or is Aaron Rodgers a phone call? I don't think he is cross off

I think Pat McAfee is ooh just Pat McAfee yeah okay that's an interesting one I always for some reason

I thought of him as part of a three man yeah could it be Burkhart Olsen and Pat McAfee or Burkhart Charles Davis and Pat McAfee? Or Burkhart Charles Davis and Pat McAfee?

I don't know. Okay. Anybody else? Again, they could be around. They could be coaching or playing right now, but it's just checking in. Just seeing if you've had any ideas about being an announcer.

Adrian Peterson, no. Moss? Adrian Peterson no Moss I don't know too kind of distinct you have to have a color guy where you can kind of slide into the game yeah he might be too distinct for that Rex Ryan same thing

too distinct of a personality where you kind of overpower the game yeah yeah i could tell your rex ryan feelings it's an interesting list though right because it's kind of a nothing to lose moment we just reach out to everybody well i know i i remember when espn was trying to replace and they that's what they did and somehow they ended up with Jason Witten. Yeah, well, ESPN's called a lot of people. Let's not forget before the Aikman thing, ESPN called Tony Romo. That's how Tony Romo got to $18 million.

ESPN also called Peyton Manning at least once before the Manning cast and said, hey, we're ready. Here's the job. Didn't work. The other thing is Amazon is just, talk about look at me. We've been hearing about their plans and things have been getting leaked

for nine months at this point. How come they don't have anybody? So this is the question I want to ask you about that. Thursday night football and Monday night football. To me, should feel like fun bonus football. Yep. Like Thursday night got really good when Buck and Aikman sort of made it like the comedy roast night. In fact, I think that's probably part of Aikman getting better is he had a Thursday game that wasn't as important that didn't feel like the big Sunday afternoon 425 Eastern game and he could just kind of cut loose a little bit.

Yeah. And I'm wondering, both for Thursday and even Monday, how do you make it feel like, how do you make it feel fun? Well, my guess with Amazon is they're going to have a bunch of alternate broadcasts, right? They'll have six different streams. They've already kind of did this when they had Hannah and Andrea Kramer, but I'm sure they'll have the gambling version and they'll have the former

players version and the home team, away team. I guess they're going to have six different, yeah, they'll have like six different ones. What happens to the main and cast? Where is that next year? It's right where it is. It's at ESPN still? And by the way, that's an interesting thing because, you know, I thing because, you know,

I don't, you know, again, I haven't made a survey of everybody, but the sense I got was from the big network announcers. They didn't want to be programmed against. They found the whole idea that wait, my network would hire Peyton Manning. Now maybe with Troy, that's such a huge contract that just who cares at this point, you know, you can put anything against it and he'd be fine. But yeah, that's an interesting dynamic i think the big here's my monday night problem which is the monday night problem the year before in the year before which is it feels like there's so much football on tv now yeah and by monday you're kind of limping to the finish line and you're gassed i feel gassed by monday

night and i love pro football and is there a way if you just put Buck and Aikman, will we all just perk up enough or Alan Aikman? And will we perk up enough and say, okay, we're here, right? This is, this feels big time. It feels like a huge game. Are we just going to be tired by Monday, by Monday night? I think with a much better announcing crew, you perk up a little bit. We haven't seen that from Monday night football ESPN really since Madden was on it.

Last question, then we'll go. If Buck does go to ESPN, that sets a nice little ripple effect within the ESPN infrastructure, right? Baseball, golf. Like, what happens to Van Pelt? Who's the point man on the Masters? Is that Joe Buck? Or is it happens to Van Pelt? Who's the point man on the Masters? Is that Joe Buck?

Now it's Scott Van Pelt. If Scott Van Pelt gets salty, if he has to share it, not a very salty guy, but I'm just trying to start drama. Yeah, that's good. You're doing the right thing. I like your instincts here.

I think the salary thing is actually the biggest thing at ESPN. Yeah, Van Pelt's like, I've created this nighttime sports center franchise for you. Now you're bringing this guy and he's going to work 40 dates and make more money than I do?

Yeah, well, I think we all got to a point where like, okay, Stephen A is the acknowledged MVP of ESPN. 12-ish million dollars. Oh, whoops. Tragman, $18 million. Yeah, what's Stephen A. going to do? Joe Buck, more than 12 million dollars, let's say. So all of a sudden, you just reset the thing. And remember with ESPN versus all these other places we're talking

about, they just have more people working there. So it may not just be like, I'm the most valuable person at ESPN, but if I'm down the list and still very valuable, if I'm Chris Fowler and Kirk Herbstreet, I'm looking at these salaries going, oh, is that the new going rate we're paying for the big time announcer? They'd have to worry about Van Pelt, Stephen A., Fowler, Herbstreet. And I wouldn't blame any of them for thinking that. You just reset the bar. You just told us that this is what these jobs are worth. I know the NFL is on a separate planet, all that stuff, but we work for the same company.

I mean, that's what happened with the Romo deal. Everybody started looking around, go, why am I not making that much money? It'd be like when ESPN hired Rick Riley, paid him a shitload of money. It's like, there are some other people that worked for the company that were like, wait a second, I've been kicking this guy's ass for years. What's going on? Can you clarify

who might have been thinking that at the time? I just heard through the quick find there were people saying that. Brian Curtis, we can hear you in the press box doing good stuff for the Ukrainian conflict lately. Not the most uplifting content on the press box, but important stuff, especially with how

this is being reported between your pod and Derek Thompson's plain English pod. I think we've done a really nice job of kind of explaining what's been going on

in the last week or so. So good work with that. I look forward to seeing your new bookshelf in person. We got to compare notes. Yeah, we got to compare notes. Best American Sports Writing 1954. That's pretty good.

You got it. Because I got it. We'll do a draft. All right, good to see you. See you, Bill. All right, it's time for the Euphoria End of the Season Awards. Season two just happened.

It became a phenomenon for HBO. It was the second most watched show since 2004. The first being Game of Thrones. It was getting like 16 to 19 million people per episode, including everyone in high school, everyone in college. I think it's the biggest under 22 show since I've known my daughter, Zoe Simmons. I would say over 22 as well. Yeah, but especially like high school college. Sure. But I mean, this has hit people of all age ranges. So what happened?

Do you think it was the pandemic started it and people caught up to season one and were ready? Like why was it so much bigger? It did have the advantage of having the pandemic and allowing people to catch up with the episodes and binge them. But I also feel like Zendaya has become probably the biggest actress in the world

because of Spider-Man. The new one came out and that was ginormous. Like that got more streams or views than Avatar. Yeah. Which is insane because Avatar is one of the biggest movies ever. So Zendaya being the lead character in this show definitely helped.

And I think people caught up on HBO Max. I heard from a friend of mine on HBO that Euphoria's audience was like 80% HBO Max because your generation doesn't even know when things are on. They just know they go on the streamer. I mean, it's unfair the life that we live. So leisure filled.

Unfair or fair? Unfair for everyone. No, unfair for everyone else, I mean. Because I can enter any app and watch whatever show I want without having to wait most of the time. That's what was great about Euphoria. You could just binge through it during the pandemic. So why did the show hit? What happened? What made it go to another level? Explain it to us. the majority of our viewers are people in high school, just out of high school, in college, just out of college. And through the pandemic, we were really robbed of all experiences of high school. So having a TV show as we're reentering the real world,

that basically explains everything that goes on in high school and in college to the fullest. Wait a second. I mean, I would hope this does explain everything from high school. This show's insane. It is insane. And you could say that a lot of it is exaggerated, which it is. But the premise, the true core of this TV show

is completely accurate to the way that high school is. Explain. I mean, I feel like parents are so oblivious, even though everyone was kids at some point. Now that we have technology, it's a whole new wave of being a teenager. Everything is different now. Everything is more accessible to people who use drugs like Rue. I mean, that's more of an old style thing where she has her dealer and she goes to Fez

and he has this little shop. But nowadays, it's like you Snapchat your dealer and he's at your house in 10 minutes. Your dealer? My dealer. Not my dealer. I'm off the drugs, guys. You're never on the drugs. I'm never on the drugs.

Jesus. None of you heard any of that. I might have to call it. This is terrible. I'm off my drugs. The stuff that really resonates with you is like the love triangle stuff. Yeah, the love triangles. This is the only TV show, and I can say that confidently.

I know you love the OC and I mean like The Bachelor and Bachelorette and all those types of shows that highlight love triangles, relationships, and etc. This is the show that truly shows the toxicity of some relationships, how some people just absolutely are not meant to be together. Like it really dives into all of that. It's super raw and it's real and it may be exaggerated, but it does show some components of relationships and how toxic that they can get. And it's, it was ahead of the curve with the gender identity stuff.

Yeah. Oh, totally. It's super prevalent. And I feel like that everyone is watching this show right now which is also helping that entire not wave because it's not a wave but that knowingness and awakening of this entire so what's your favorite thing about this show that's a that's a loaded question i just feel like as a teenager my favorite thing is being

able being able to watch this a show that explains in some form some fucked up form funked up form like really morphed form the way that high school is and the way that life really is and i feel like it's showing parents and other people out in the world who may not understand teenagers what it really is like to be a teenager nowadays. Except for the drugs. Except, but not except for the drugs. I mean, on my part, I'm a rare part of people who don't do drugs, but I mean, that's extremely prevalent. And maybe not hard drugs like the stuff that Ru takes i would hope that i would hope not as well but i mean i i could be completely oblivious and there could be people out there taking that stuff all over like you never know stay oblivious stay oblivious explain before we

get you're gonna do the uh awards for season two but explain how tiktok took this show to another level like with your generation i mean t, TikTok takes everything to another level. But specifically, Euphoria got caught definitely during the pandemic. When it first came out, it was popular, but it wasn't the way that it is now. During the pandemic, because everyone had so much time on their hands along with whipped coffee and other things like that, Euphoria looks were huge. Like doing these videos to one of the music sounds of just you doing your eye makeup in a transition, like euphoria became an aesthetic. Sam Levinson actually said that he didn't like that it became an aesthetic because he did that to enhance the show in itself. But TikTok just took it and ran with it and

euphoria became an entire type of fashion. That was another piece that happened with the show, the Sam Levinson factor and how polarizing he became with people who didn't like his decisions for characters and were upset that so-and-so isn't on the show as much or why did he do this? He almost became a character. Sam Levinson is like a dictator. He is a character. Sam Levinson is everyone. Rue is Sam Levinson. Rue is Sam Levinson. Lexi is Sam Levinson. Jules is Sam Levinson. This show is Sam Levinson in every single form that he is. That is what it's, I wouldn't call it narcissistic. It's genius almost because he's a confusing person and he used all these different types of characters to encapsulate all of his personalities and all the struggles that he went through as a white cis male who chose a... Well, it's true. Okay. I didn't know you were dropping lingo on me.

No, I'm not. But a white cis male who chose to make a black young woman the main character in his show. But they shared some similarities. They did. The drug issue and all that. Yeah, and all of that. I think he's a genius. He might be a slightly flawed genius,

but this was one of the... All geniuses are slightly flawed. Well, this is one of the most creative TV shows of the century, at the very least. But even when the show misses, it still feels like it hits. I thought the season finale TV shows of the century at the very least. Even when the show misses, it still feels like it hits. I thought the season finale was all over the place. I loved watching it.

That's part of what Lexi said in her play. When Cassie got extremely upset that her life was being broadcasted in front of a bunch of people, Lexi said not all art has to, you know,

like not everyone has to love your art. Right. Well, that was Fezco's advice to her. Well, that was Fezco's. Yeah. But she said in front of the whole stage, like,

sometimes you have to hurt people to make good art. And that's true. And that's, I mean, that just translates exactly to what Sam Levinson is trying to do with the show.

So. Fezco, just full of wisdom. You know what? He says a lot of wisdom, that guy. Every other day, the weed might have gotten to his brain, but he pulls out some really important lines. All right. Euphoria Awards. Comeback of the Year Award goes to... Lexi.

Season one, Lexi wasn't that huge of a character. She was just kind of there. She was Rue's former best friend who Rue ended up using to cover up her drug usage. And Lexi just wasn't a huge part of the show. She was a comforting character that you could look back on and be like, alright, well, at least there's

one normal person throughout this euphoria world. She was like, she normalized the show but this season she became a really important element and not even until the last half like the last four episodes we knew that she was creating this play that would explain her entire life i honestly didn't pay any attention to it i just saw her with her little notepad and pen at maddie's birthday party when cassie had the entire throw up scene and at school when, you know, Cassie was strutting down the halls with Nate, like she had her pen and her notepad

and no one knew what was going to happen. And then Lexi just pulled out this incredible masterpiece of euphoria explained and just completely. It was easily the best high school play anyone. I mean, it's so. If I went to a Crossroads play and it was like... It was anything even close to that, that would be incredible. Probably the best play that anyone has ever seen. That's Judd Apatow's oldest daughter,

Maud. She's super talented. She's been in a couple of his movies as a little kid. She was in a Pete Davidson movie a few years ago but then when i saw her on this i was like oh interesting like she has some real depth to her yeah i thought the last couple episodes it was like wow she's a really good actress she's a really good actress and like her entire situation with fezco and the way that she was able to

express herself through this play as sam levinson did with this show. It was just some good translating lines there. And I felt like she completely played this character perfectly. Good job by her. All right. Saddest moment of the season. This is a show that'll get sad from time to time. From time to time. I feel like every scene is just heart-wrenching, really.

There isn't one unsad scene. Well, give me the two saddest. All right. The top two. Ashtray getting shot was just, we all felt it coming. I saw a few TikTok comments before the finale came out. If Ashtray

gets shot, this is all on Faye. I'm not watching the show again. If Ashtray or Fezco dies, everyone knew it was... People love Ashtray, the homicidal little brother drug dealer. He's so, he's incredible. He's the best. He's just, he loves stabbing people and killing people and he's you know what i think it's always shell shocking to murder a little kid on a tv show

especially in the way that they did it where you know the house was getting raided by an fbi and police officers and ashtray's just laying in the bathtub with an array of weapons and just, you know, shooting them at a bunch of high-tech soldier type people. Didn't know if that was the best move by him, but I understand why that was the decision and why Sam Levinson had to kill him off, but it's always shocking to kill little kids.

Just, it's a rough one. If you brought home a friend named Ashtray, I'd be concerned. I think that's a red flag in itself. All right, other saddest moment. Rue's little sister, Gia, finding out that Rue was using again. There was a lot of controversy because, you know, Rue in her fucked up mind, having this, like, I need to manipulate everyone around me to not thinking that I'm using drugs.

So I'm going to tell my little sister that I'm using drugs so I'm going to tell my little sister that I'm just smoking some weed to help with you know the the addiction to help her not take drugs when in reality she's taking harder drugs to get her off of her case um Gia finding out that Rue was actually using worse drugs than she had ever used and was about to kill herself was so intense just seeing all of the life pour out of her face and like she thought that rue was finally getting better in a sense or tried to convince herself that like as an older sister watching the disappointment in gia's face and understanding that her biggest role model rue was actually a terrible person which she had

always suspected considering the life that Ru was led. But really solidifying that in her drug usage and finding out that she was lying to everyone around her, it was just heartbreaking. It was really, really hard to watch. She had a really good sad face too. I think she's a great actress. Character of the year.

Character of the season. This one easily goes to Cassie. What a tour de force. God, I hate her so much. I really hate her. She is the ultimate girl who I just would absolutely hate. Like never, ever want to be around. And I feel like this was expected.

Season one, Sydney Sweeney has always been an incredible actress. She showcased that through White Lotus, through season one of of euphoria this was a completely different performance yeah i i truly haven't seen anything like it she just fully was the most horrifying and like transcendent form of a teenage girl that anyone could be to the max. That a guy would want to hook up with and every girl would hate and be afraid of. And then never talk to again. She's like a one and done type of situation. She's just the most terrifying character I've ever watched. She becomes someone else.

She's like Lindsay Lohan's friends in Mean Girls, but times 100. Yeah, but times 10,000. She has no fear. She's insane. She makes some of the craziest faces I've ever seen in my life. Some of the best faces. Really some of the best.

And she is such a beautiful young woman, Sydney Sweeney. She looks just absolutely horrific in so many scenes in this TV show. Yeah, she can go from pretty to completely psychotic looking. Like you would never, ever want to be around her ever.

And just like the shift between the types of characters that she can be. She has so much variety. Great casting season. Really a great. Every scene she was in, it was going somewhere.

It was so, she kept the show going. Yeah, I'm with you. You thought the best episode was episode seven, which was part one. Of Lexi's play. I think I agree. I thought the best episode was episode seven, which was part one of Lexi's play. I think I agree. I thought especially the ending with Cassie staring through the window.

And just the steam. Oh, yeah. And you know what? I talked to a few friends about this, and they disagreed that this episode was just a recap of what happened throughout the entire season. No way. That was so creative. I think it was... It took me a half hour to even understand what was going on. It's just... It was the most well-done play I've ever seen and I've seen plays... Well, plus how they would use the real characters and then they would turn into the play characters.

And they would... Just the... Some of the scenes in it, the translation between the Cassie and Maddie sleepover when Maddie's just crying her eyes out and then that turns into the stage or when Cassie and Lexi sleepover when Maddie's just crying her eyes out and then that turns into the stage or when Cassie and Lexi were dancing with their parents in her house

and then that panorama's out. That was cool. It being the stage and the two actresses, it's just emotionally, it was so like, it just tore my heart out because Lexi has lived such a hard life. Plus good cliffhanger.

They turned it on Nate. Yeah. They turned it on Nate. Yeah, they turned it on Nate. We'll get into that later. But I mean, it's just an incredible episode of television. I never would have thought that the play would have come out so creatively and that it would have been such a whirlwind to watch. Really good creative. Set the stage. I don't think the second part was as good as the first part, but the week between the two parts. No, I think the second the first part was definitely better. I felt a lot more invested because

it was mostly the play. The second part was more about Cassie destroying it and making it about herself as she always does. When Lexi even says after Cassie comes out before they go back on stage again and she's like, the one thing I've ever done, and it becomes a disaster.

I don't know. Just stay at home. Worst parent. This is a prestigious award for you for it. The worst parent of the year was? Nate's mom. Okay. This might not have been the first person

that you would have thought of for the worst parent. Yeah, you would have thought Nate's dad. You would have thought Nate's dad, but you know what? When you truly look into this TV show and the deeper parent. Yeah, you would have thought Nate's dad. You would have thought Nate's dad. But you know what? When you truly look into this TV show and the deeper lining of it, Nate's dad is a really, really messed up person

who has backstory as to why he's a messed up person. And Nate's mom, I guess, being married to someone who, you know, has not been faithful to you and is a bad guy, that's hard. But after Nate's dad just leaves the family and is like bad guy that's hard but after nate's dad just leaves the family it's like fuck you all you're all assholes like i'm out of here like you were my biggest mistake nate like his mom is just no comfort to him there's no like nate you weren't

a mistake like i love you so much you weren't my biggest regret get a nice coffee yeah instead it's like she gets really drunk and high and watches him get drunk and then starts telling him that she also agrees that he was a ginormous mistake and that this entire family was a ginormous mistake and that she wished she could take it back. Arguably, Cassie and Lexi's mom and dad could be in the running here.

Yeah. But I feel like Nate's mom is the worst. I hate her. I think I agree. Most redeemable character that you didn't expect to be redeemed? Faye. I mean, when she first entered this show, I had no hope for her.

I honestly wanted her to get killed off. Real life porn star? You're like, what's going on with this casting? I just didn't get it. But then after her character development happened and she was living with Fezco, porn star you're like what's going on with this casting i just didn't i didn't get it but then after her character development happened and she was living with fezco and you know things were getting better and on the season finale was when things really turned around for me because she was ironing fezco's outfit or this is the end of episode seven yeah she was ironing himself it she

became forced with him and then in episode eight when they were trying to sell out Fezco to the police and tell them that he had killed Mouse, she defended him. And she was like, didn't you tell me that Lori was the one that killed Mouse? And then he was like, I didn't fucking say that. And she was like,

yeah, you did. And she was there for Fezco. Yeah. So you know what? I think that her and her lips were there for Fezco. We love you, Faye. I think she was a great lips Were there for Fezgo We love you Faye I think she was A great addition to the show

She's pumping up those lips right? Oh she is I've seen before and afters But you know what? I love Chloe sharing And I appreciate that She came on the show Chloe do what you need to do

Sus of the year Explain what sus of the year is Explain what sus is Well you use sus all the time I thought sus could be an award Sus means suspicious or suspects like I would say dad is sus for not wearing

shoes and putting his toes on the counter right now okay that's sus so sus of the year is what sus of the year goes to Kat just completely being cut out of the show so the sus part is the fact that Kat was a huge character in season one

and then season two was shoved to the side. And she's a great actress. She was a great addition to season one. I absolutely adored her character and there was so much more

to go from there. Like the entire mysterious Kat like porn star type of thing. I love that. That whole arc was great. It was great.

So what happened? Tell us the rumors. You know, so there's there are some rumors flying around that Sam Levinson and Kat's actress had a bit of an issue

where she just did not like the way in which Kat was going. She thought it was going down too dark of a route. And no one can ever disagree with Sam Levinson. A reporter, like reported that

they didn't like season one of Euphoria and then he made an entire basically a diss track short film on that yeah just dissing that person so sam levinson doesn't take criticism well and he basically cut cat's character out of the entire show she could have gone in so many directions rumors rumored it doesn't make sense why somebody who was one of the five most important characters of season one and she had so many directions to go in

she was a huge vital part of their friend group she was like the nonchalant like you know I don't really know anything about the life that these people are leading while behind the scenes I'm like this porn star why are you playing with your phone this is so much more important I'm turning on the do. Why are you playing with your phone? This is so much more important.

I'm turning on the do not disturb because I keep getting some emails. Well, if you were a pro, you would have done that before. I know. I know. I'm embarrassed. You've given me some evil eyes.

Best redemption. You have Nate's dad for this one. Yeah. Even though he pulled it out and peed all over the living room and that was the moment when i was like this guy's fucking awesome he's going to jail that was the moment he's a hard drive of all his sex conquest you know i don't think about that when i think about his nightmares of his dad having sex with them and that was your redemption of the year

you know i i can't explain myself from time to time. Basically, for whatever reason, Nate's dad, a villainous guy that you were prepared not to like, felt bad for him by the end of season three. If you guys had seen his deep dive episode, I'm sure you all have, where it just goes into his past

and what has made him the person that he is today, it's truly sad. Yeah, it is. The reason made him the person that he is today. It's truly sad. Yeah, it is. Like the reason why he is the way he is because he is a white man who had a very

masculine father who wouldn't have been accepting of his homosexuality. Yeah. And he had to, it was the 80s and he had to conceal all of that.

He was in love with his friend and then he ended up getting his girlfriend pregnant. I mean, it's just like that's really mentally so hard to have to conceal something like that. No one could understand that but someone who has to live through that. And although I don't condone all of the things that Cal does, because he's a horrible person.

Obviously, that's terrible. And filming his encounters with people and cheating on his wife. And being a terrible dad. But somehow you felt bad for him. But somehow I did feel bad for him because, I mean, I can't ever imagine having to live a lie

your entire life. And then he pissed on the floor and that was great. I loved it. Funniest parent? I have Cassie's mom for this and I I loved it. Funniest parent. I have, I have Cassie's mom for this and I think you do as well. Yeah.

I mean, I mean, Cassie, Suze. Her name is Suze. Great job. She's incredible. I think Ethan's reenactment of her was even better somehow,

but she was just an incredible addition to the show. There had to be some sort of humor at some parts. Yeah. Cause it's such a heavy show in every single episode and she just always brought that. Especially that scene when Cassie is arguing with her that Maddie wasn't with Nate when her and Nate started having sex. And she's like, Suze is just like, oh my god, she needs a fucking exorcism.

It was perfect. It was perfect. It was great. I love Suze. She's the best. Character we didn't need. Who do you have for this one? I have Lori, the female drug dealer. Don't you think she comes back in season three?

I think she will. She will come back. I know she will come back. But we don't understand why. I don't understand why she had to be in season two for three episodes, make a really big threat to Rue that she would sell her and sex traffic her if she loses the drugs that she so kindly gifted to Rue

when she knew she was an addict and something bad was going to happen. Yeah. And then she just dips for the rest of the season. If in the finale, something had concluded there and Rue had gotten kidnapped or something, although I wouldn't have wanted that to happen, she left a huge hole in the finale, something had concluded there and like Rue had gotten kidnapped or something, although I wouldn't have wanted that to happen,

she left a huge hole in the plot line where it's like, I know we're going to come back to this in season three, but there should have been some sort of resolution there. I think Sam has some red herring plots where he kind of just forgets. Yeah, he kind of goes off on a whim and he just like lets things happen

and then he just doesn't clean them up. It's like, come on, Sam. You didn't watch The Sopranos yet, the greatest show of all time. They had this episode where this Russian got chased into the woods by Polly Walnuts and Christopher.

Yeah. And you always thought the Russian was going to come back. And then the show just ended. We never saw the Russian again. It was like, what happened to the Russian? He does that sometimes.

He gets carried away in the show and then he never cleans up the puddles. But it works out. It's just nitpicks. Speaking of Sam, your top three worst Sam Levinson decisions of season two were?

All right. These had to be well thought out because Sam Levinson has made some really, really questionable decisions. But that's why you love him. The first one just has to be in the finale, probably the biggest episode, the most anticipated. He puts in a four-minute

song that Elliot sings to Rue when they're rejoicing in their friendship. It's like Jason Mraz showed up. Yeah, and it's just like panning back to Rue, and then to Elliot, and Rue with tears in her eyes, and Elliot staring at her kind of

weirdly, and I know that Labyrinth and Zendaya and then to Elliot and Rue with tears in her eyes and Elliot staring at her kind of weirdly. And I know like that Labyrinth and Zendaya collaborated on this song. And it's a good song, but it didn't have to be four minutes of the episode because these are vital, important minutes that I would have wanted to watch something else. I'm with you.

All right, so that's one. That's one. The Rue funeral speech happened at least seven different times in both episodes seven and eight. And it's just. That's one. The Rue funeral speech happened at least seven different times in both episodes seven and eight. And it's just like, come on, dude. Like that's probably collectively like 20 minutes of Rue's funeral speech.

I could probably recite it to you right now if you wanted me to. And then your third worst decision that we didn't see the Maddie Cassie beat down in the bathroom. I mean, it's just it should have gone on for longer. Cassie has been such an asshole to Maddie

this season. I just wanted Maddie to... She did bitch slap her on the stage, which was good. What about her shoving her into the wall? And then he pushed her into the wall, into the brick wall. But there should have been a few more punches. I wanted to see Cassie get more roughed up. She deserved it.

I didn't realize you were this violent. The most realistic high school moment. See, this is why you're our euphoria expert, because you notice things. I know these things. So what was the most realistic? The Cassie's argument with her mom, which was mentioned earlier when she was trying to convince her mom that Nate and Maddie weren't hooking up when Cassie started hooking up with Nate and Cassie just comes into the room red faced for at least like the 10th time in the day. And we know that Suze is a raging alcoholic and she's just trying to lay

down and watch her reality TV. And Cassie comes back in and she's like, what do you guys know that they weren't still together when we started having sex? And, and, um, Suze is like, she's like, well, you guys know that they weren't still together when we started having sex. And and Suze is like, she's like, oh, God damn it. Give me a break. And Cassie just keeps going like they weren't together. And then Suze is like, Cassie.

And then Lexi is like, Lexi says something about that doesn't matter. You shouldn't sleep with your best friend's ex-boyfriend who she wants to get back with. And then Cassie just says they work together and that's when suze drops the oh my god she's needs an exorcism line and it's just like it was just perfect like i haven't i've never had an argument like that with mom because i wouldn't say that i'm even half as crazy as cassie but i could see that happening with someone out in the world. It had some sort of realism from how real arguments with your mom goes. So I just thought it was a good one.

Incoherent. Both sides yelling. Both yelling. Cassie coming back at least six different times to continue arguing it to make her feel better. Yeah. It was perfect. It was perfect.

The funniest moment, you have either Nate getting destroyed in the play Rue well Rue blowing it for Cassie telling Maddie about Cassie and Nate you have those two and then was there any other funny ones

no those were my two I think Nate's dad peeing on the floor was pretty funny. I mean, that was so funny. The hot tub puke was up there. No, no, no. No, that wasn't funny. That was disgusting. When Cal Jacobs is like, I am who I am.

I'm doing that. Before the end of 2022, I'm just peeing all over the living room. Suze goes, put your penis away, Cal. And he goes no i just i thought that nate being completely obliterated by ethan was so funny because ethan needed some sort of redemption from the way that um cat just absolutely gaslighted him during their breakup which was just honestly horrible yet so realistic yeah i just i thought it was incredible the entire locker room thing the the jizzing weird thing was just it was great i loved it some quick ones yeah rue outing cassie also incredible that was my favorite moment of the season yeah when rue's like last

move they were yeah let's go to rehab she was just caught from her like 10 mile run all around Los Angeles. And then, oh my God, Rue's line. So when did she start fucking Nate? It's crazy. Great stuff. We'll rip through these. Most unrealistic relationship. It's got to be Fezco and Lexi.

Just would never happen. Lexi is too goody goody perfect. And Fezco is a drug dealer. It just wouldn't happen. Lexi is too goody-goody perfect and Fezco is a drug dealer. It just wouldn't happen. You thought the biggest missing puzzle piece of season two was a friendly cop? Explain. I just think that every TV show like this deserves a friendly cop

that's kind of like the insider. Like, you know, he knows too much and he kind of has a hint of what's going on but he doesn't have enough evidence yet. Like, he would have been best friends with Cal and not even known that Cal was doing all this illegal stuff under the radar. Yeah.

I just feel like that piece was missing. We should have had some more authoritative figure. Or it was like Rue's cousin. Rue's cousin? Yeah, I'm just trying to think like... Like more family members for Rue? Yeah, just like he's like Rue's second cousin. So he's looking out for her.

Maybe like a Jules brother or sister to give insight on the mom. You had most beautiful scene, Rue, in the church. I agree with that. Incredible. You have most unrealistic high school moment. I'll give you the nominees. The lack of any teachers at all. It just, it wasn't a real

school. The lack of all sports. Also just super unrealistic. There should have been a homecoming game or something where everyone was getting high under the bleachers. The, the, uh, no, none of the girls slobby dressed. I don't know what that means but explain oh well no not slobby dress i mean obviously it's part of the aesthetic that the euphoria characters come to school in full form and uniforms and they're like wonderful wonderfully incredibly slutty clothing and slutty not in a bad way slutty in like the best way possible but But I mean, at my school, most days, everyone is wearing sweatpants and a hoodie. Like it's just, we're never, ever dressed like that. And obviously that's, that's an obvious choice, but it's just unrealistic in itself.

That's why it's a TV show. And then you said the dude's clothes are from 10 years ago? I don't know. It's just like the way that Nate Drace dresses. I mean, some of it is realistic, but you should see the way that Ben Simmons dresses with his BB belts and his really oversized shirts. Don't compare Ben Simmons to anybody. You're right. Top penis you didn't need to see in season two? I didn't know that that's what we called it.

The finalists are Nate's dad and the guy in the strip joint. That's my winner. Yeah, the guy in the strip joint with the flabby genitals. No one had to see it. It did not have to happen. Strangest LA location? The mystery gay bar? That just never happened.

Nate's dad's flashback. He takes this long drive. And this is not to say that there's no gay bars because I'm sure in West Hollywood, they're all over, but not in a rural location off of like the PCH or something. Like there's no gay bar like that. He takes a 15 minute ride. All of a sudden he's in like...

He's in a parking lot. And the gay bar looks like an old saloon from like the 1800s. That is no part of Los Angeles I've ever seen. Nate's lowest moment with a gun. Oh, this was a rough one. Nate's had a lot of bad gun moments. He's lowest moment with a gun? Oh, this was a rough one. Nate's had a lot of bad gun moments. He's had a lot of bad gun moments,

but definitely when he snuck into Maddie's house and held the gun to her head and then to his head and was like cocking it when he knew there were no... So he could get the draft. That was stupid. I didn't like that. It was just crazy. The Sam Levinson season two heat check award

goes to I think we both agree on this one. Rue's police chase when Rue was Rue who's a drug addict who can't have any stamina or oxygen We saw her biking with Jules a few episodes ago and she couldn't even go a block but somehow she can run 10

miles from police officers from like house owners. She's hopping fences. go of Locke, but somehow she can run 10 miles from police officers, from house owners. She's hopping fences. She's jumping in a pool. She's getting obliterated by trees. I just didn't get it. She's fending off dogs. Oh, this is a good one.

Most outrageous thing that actually could have happened in high school. So this, you have Cassie dressing like Maddie after she starts hooking up that was insane because the jealousy that can happen this fully could happen and even subconsciously obviously cassie was doing this because she had tried every single thing she could to get nate's attention back after he was he claimed he was done with her and so she finally just started dressing like the girl that she thought he actually loved and then she ended up getting

his attention so she just basically tried to take over Maddie's persona so you feel like this could actually happen this could for sure happen if a girl is trying to get a guy who's like desperate enough to to do, it would happen. The character who ran out of gas award. This is going to... You had Jules for this. What do we do with Jules? I hate Jules. I haven't liked Jules

since her special episode during Christmas. I liked her first season and then I just realized that her character is extremely annoying in every scene that she's in and I think that Hunter Schafer

is so talented. Like a great actress. But her character in this show just annoys me so much because she's so detrimental to Rue. Yeah. And I think I hold Rue very close to my heart

because I feel so bad for her and for the life that she's led and Jules only makes her worse and then goes off and starts like hooking up with Elliot. And it's just like, come on, dude, like you suck.

Get off the show. So Jules, you think it's over or is there any sort of redemption possibility in season three? She just had no plot line. Her entire character just revolves around

making Rue's life more miserable so if they give her a new plot then maybe i think if she had died in a car accident at the end of season two if she if nate if nate's dad's car had hit her a drunk driving nate's dad accident had hit jules just jules aside and elliot andue survived at the back would have been great. House in Euphoria that most needed a dog. Whose house? This one easily goes to Rue. Needs like a golden retriever? And Gia's house. Just because, one, it could have

sniffed out the drugs probably earlier than anyone else could have. And I feel like Gia just needs a hug and a golden retriever would have brought in some smiles to her face. Funniest Sam Levinson quirk of season two. This goes to the timeline.

There's just no consistency with this man. At one point, we're at New Year's and then at the end of the season, Rue's talking about how she's been clean for the rest of the school year. So we just don't know where we're going to end up. But he messes up this timeline

at least seven different times during the season. And no one can keep up with it. And I'm fine with it because when I'm watching Euphoria, nothing is realistic. Yeah. So it's like, it's not a big deal. But if, as was said on the Prestige podcast by Joanna,

if you're going to not have a realistic timeline stop talking about the timeline right stop doing it like don't bring it up if you're not going to keep it consistent it's just a bad move by sam i think this is also his part of just doing things on a whim and kind of going into the because that's the kind of director that he is he just does things on the fly and that's why it's so beautiful he is. He just does things on the fly, and that's why it's so beautiful. He's a genius, but... Well, he's going to have a problem soon. His characters are going to be ruled in real life soon.

Yeah. So I don't know where you go from here, but I think... Nate has like a 5 o'clock shadow. He's like almost my age. He needs to start keeping... I've seen a few men at my school who could look like Nate. Facial-wise, no one's 6'5 in high school. If they're 6'5,

they're like 135 pounds. They don't look like Nate Jacobs. They're not pulled out. And then we have... I think that's it. We're up to season 3 predictions. The unresolved plot of season 2

is Maddie and the white lady yeah and Minka what's her name Minka Kelly Minka Kelly yeah I thought that

there's a lot of directions this could go in there was a lot of conspiracies on TikTok that there was some sexual tension there but we found out that she's more of a

motherly figure for Maddie but it still felt kind of kind of weird so we'll see where that one goes give us your season 3

predictions we gotta go alright I think that Laurie giving Zendaya I still feel kind of weird, so we'll see where that one goes. Give us your three predictions. We've got to go. All right. I think that Laurie giving Zendaya the suitcase, knowing that she was going to mess it up somehow and telling her that she was going to kidnap her if she did so, I think that Laurie is going to bail out Fezco from jail because there's no way Fezco remains in jail for the entire season.

He's too vital. She's going to bail him out, and then she's going to have Rue kidnapped already. And she's going to use that to blackmail Fezco in some way. My worst case scenario for Fezco in jail is multiple scenes with Lexi visiting him in jail. I just don't want to see it. I don't want to see it.

Just get Fezco out of jail. No one wants to see him in jail. Bail him out. We want wants to see him in jail. We want him to be in the episode even if he has severe trauma from seeing his little brother getting obliterated by him. You're a bad person. You're a bad person.

Any death predictions for season three? I hope that Jules and Elliot and Nate's dad. No, I don't want Nate's dad to die. He's just going to be in jail. I hope that Jules and Elliot get into a conjoined plane

crash. And then Nate's 30th birthday party? What is that going to look like? You think? Hopefully Cassie's not throwing up in a hot tub. What happens with Cassie and Maddie? Because that was, there was a threat at the end with Maddie and it was,

well, no, I think the threat threatening Cassie or she, she had said to Cassie, this is only the beginning or something along those lines. When Cassie was talking about how Nate had already broken up with her before she went and messed up the whole play. I think that she was referring to the psychological trauma that Nate will put Cassie through if she continues to be with him and not

the fact that she's going to absolutely ruin Cassie's life, which she will do as well. But I think that Maddie has had a lot of character development in not completely freaking out at Cassie from the beginning. She's concealed it enough to the point where it's really scary. And I think that something is brewing. How does Sam write you into season three? I think that I could be a soccer captain.

I could be Lexi's new best friend because Rue's not there for her. Oh, yeah. I could be a million different things. I think they need more wholesome people on this TV show. Yeah, you and Lexi. You're like the wholesome crew.

Me and Lexi could be the besties. Maddie hates you guys because you're so wholesome. Yeah. That sounds great. So what's your final grade for Euphoria? I'd give this season a 9.5 out of 10. And that.5 was lost because of the entire singing scene at the end of episode 8.

Just let's not do that ever again, Sam. And keep your timeline straight. All right. That's all I got to say. Great to see you as always. Thank you for having me. That's it for the podcast.

Thanks to Kyle Creighton as always. Thanks to Dylan Berkey and Steve Cerruti. I will be back on this feed on Thursday night. See you then. On the wayside, on the first side of the river I'm saying I don't have to ever forget