The Bill Simmons Podcast - New York Hoops, Food Trends, ESPN's Future, and Nick Saban With Eddie Huang and Jim Miller | The Bill Simmons Podcast (Ep. 399)

Episode Date: August 10, 2018

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by chef, author, and TV producer Eddie Huang to talk tortured Knicks fandom, Linsanity, NBA rookies, summer league, the transformation of the L.A. food scene, developing TV shows, and more (3:13). Then Bill talks with author Jim Miller about ESPN's apex, its current state, the future of digital media, and Miller's new podcast episode “Origins of a Champion: Nick Saban & Alabama’s Crimson Tide” (52:50). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the BS Podcast in the sweltering heat of Los Angeles on the Ringer Podcast Network, brought to you by ZipRecruiter, where they know the difference between working hard and working smart. ZipRecruiter's technology and tools make hiring more efficient and effective. It's the smartest way to hire. That doesn't mean you can't find people who work hard too. ZipRecruiter will help you. Their powerful technology scans thousands of resumes to find people with the right experience for your job. So effective. 80% of employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate through the site in just one day. My listeners can try it for free. Go to ZipRecruiter.com slash BS. That is ZipRecruiter.com slash BS. ZipRecruiter,

the smartest way to hire. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where we have new podcasts posted this week. On Shuffle, we have Larry Wilmore, which I went on. A last minute gas cancellation, I got roped in. We talked about LeBron to the Lakers. We talked about conspiracies, Bill Cosby, Trump. It went all over the place. It was kind of insane. I think people think I'm insane now about some of the conspiracies. That's fine. I'm old. I am insane. So we have that. I also went on

Channel 33 with Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins, and we broke down this new Oscars thing about the popular category that they're allegedly adding. We went from being horrified to then salvaging it. And by the end we fixed the Oscars. So congratulations to us. We also have a rewatchables that went up Thursday, which was about my best friend's wedding. The strangest, most successful rom-com of all time.

A lot of Julia Roberts breakdown, a lot of breakdown about should her character have just gone to jail at some point during that movie and a whole bunch of other deep dive stuff. Me, Amanda Dobbins, Juliet Lipman. So if you love the rewatchables, that's the one for this week.

There's a controversial one coming next week that I think I can't even describe. Don't forget to check out the ringer.com NFL coverage movies. The staff is very excited about the Meg. A lot of writing about the Meg. Now that we don't have succession to write about anymore. This is a dead time for pop culture. This is we're in the low right now.

Can't can't hide it. We're in a low. The Red Sox are on pace for 120 wins. And, and that's about the only thing exciting in my life right now, other than my son's a lunatic. Coming up, we're going to talk to Eddie Huang, who has not been on this podcast before.

Basketball, food, you'll like it. If you've been listening to this podcast this long, there's no way you're not going to enjoy that conversation. And then Jim Miller, who wrote the ESPN book and the SNL book way back in the day, who has a new podcast called Origins. He's, who wrote the ESPN book and the SNL book way back in the day, who has a new podcast called Origins. He's going to talk about ESPN, Nick Saban, Saturday Night Live, and a whole bunch of other things. That is all coming up first. Pearl Jam. Wow, I don't know how this hasn't happened before.

Eddie Huang's here. I'm excited, man. Big fan. I think you're my first Taiwanese guest. Excited. Thank you. You never had Jeremy Lin? No.

Alexander Wang? That would be a good podcast. Jeremy's too mellow. Yeah. We need a third party for that one. Yeah. You're wearing, I mean, this is, we're taping this Thursday afternoon. You just have all Summer League gear on.

Everything. Including a Summer League fanny pack. Yo, I bought about $350 of Summer League monogrammed things at Summer League, it was the greatest because if you're a Knick fan, then Summer League is your playoffs, you know? Yeah, well, this was, there's actually real signs of hope this year. Summer League's usually, Porzingis two years ago was fun.

Yeah. He had the head-to-head matchup with Okaford and everybody's like, whoa, Porzingis, okay. And then last year was kind of a downer. Yeah, and then, you know, for Taiwanese people, Summer League's epic because that's when Jeremy Lin went at John Wall. And that was like the epic Summer League matchup, the game heard around the world for Taiwanese

people. They're doing, there's a five-hour documentary coming about that now. It's John Wall versus Lin. We have a group chat. It was funny. Yesterday, people were like, all right, is Klay Thompson a Hall of Famer? I'm like, yo, I'm Klay Thompson all day Hall of Famer. And some fool was like, what about Jeremy Lin?

I'm like, dude, Jeremy Lin was a Hall of Famer for a weekend. You know what I mean? It was two and a half weeks. I'll tell you this though. Raptors game, Lakers game. It was the best three-week stretch for the Knicks in 15 years. Yo, the greatest. It was one of the great Asian American sports moments of all time.

Yes. Possibly, it's not number one, is it? I've actually, I wrote a screenplay where I actually discussed this for about five pages of it. Number one Asian American athletic moment of all time has to be Michael Chang-Lendl. Like Chang-Lendl French Open. Oh yeah, that was awesome.

Yeah, during Tiananmen Square. So like that's gotta be one. And was that the same match when he had the hamstring issues? Or when he was getting cramps? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was the cramps game. That was an amazing sports moment. Amazing, amazing sports moment.

Funny enough, you know, then I think Jeremy Lin Linsanity is probably number two. Linsanity was off the hook. Yeah. And then the third greatest Asian athlete sports, well, it doesn't even require, it doesn't even involve athletics. It's just Yao Ming carrying the flag on 888.

That was pretty lit. Okay, the lucky. Yeah, the Olympic ceremony. So no one was actually doing anything athletic. It was just Yao carrying the flag. And I definitely cried. Did they do that intentionally, the 888? Yeah, we do everything 8.

Like when I tip at a restaurant, the last numbers is always 8-8. Like, yeah. Yeah, I never really knew that until I started playing cards at casinos. And the unusual impact that 8 seemed to have, I'm like, what's going on here? And then it was like, you know,

you understand, like blah, blah, blah. I'm like, what's going on here? And then it was like, you know, you, you understand like blah, blah, blah. Oh, okay. The strategic placements of like lions and dragons. Like no one would bet at MGM.

Cause you had to walk into the mouth of a lion. And Catherine's like, nah, I'm not playing back or out there. What are the other superstitions like that? Eight's the biggest one. Eight's huge. Uh,

feng shui. Do you know what I mean? Like, like the, like Asians love the Bellag shui do you know i mean like oh yeah like the ballad like asians love the bellagio because you go in and it just feels like dim sum cards could come out of anywhere like right and the sun is beaming you know like you just feel like you take the house down there so like that's excellent yeah i remember playing cards in the mid 90s and people getting excited because they got two eights to split and i just it didn't make sense in my brain i'm like yeah so you either have a 16 or two eights like what's yeah great about that but like really you could feel the confidence like oh this is a good sign

so then yeah i split eights i know shane smith told me when he was just like always split eights and i was all right i actually think you're well you either do that or surrender yeah yeah you got a split or surrender david chang who i think you know yeah he is you either do that or surrender. Yeah. Yeah. You got to split or surrender. David Chang, who I think you know. Yeah. He is. Oh, man. I played blackjack with him too, but he lost every hand I sat with him.

He's a big surrenderer. Yeah. He loves surrendering. He loves surrendering. He feels like it's like one of the only advantages you have. It's like, so it's an advantage to give away half your money, but he got us all into it. We were all surrendering. Oh, really?

Yeah. There was like a surrender frenzy. Yeah. I can't do insurance or surrender. I never do insurance. Yeah. I'm like, let's fucking burn the house down. Well, cause at some point you're there to gamble.

Yeah. But like, I do think if you have a 16 against a King or something and you just look at it and you go, all right, my odds right now are 18%. Yeah. So maybe getting, I get it. I don't ever really feel great about it though. No, I kind of, I'm funny. I always stay on 16. I'm just like stay and see what the dealer does.

But like surrendering is smart. That's the smart money is to surrender. It's not fun. I'm not that smart. Yeah, you feel empty. Yeah. Also, it's funny, like with Vegas, I never really leave

a winner because until like you never win enough to want to leave like even if you're on a hot streak you're not like oh i'm gonna leave i'm up five i'm up 10 you're not gonna leave but then when you're like i'm down 15 i should leave you know well this is this is david cho's big gambling revolution what what do you do he used to back rat. But he would go and he would, he would have, he would bring somebody with him. And then if he got up a lot of money in 10 minutes, he would just leave. Oh.

He tried to figure it out. It was almost like tantric sex, but for gambling. Oh, wow. He would, it was the reverse of holding out. It was like, if he was up, that's it. I have the advantage, I'm out, I'm gone. Yo, I'm, I see, I need the action. I just, I want action. I want to be in there. And I'm like, I'm out I'm gone yo I'm I see I need the action I just I want action

I want to be in there and I'm like I bring this much money I'm willing to knock on wood lose this much money but I need three days of action so summer league

is basically your Lollapalooza yeah summer league it's your personal Lollapalooza it's the greatest you have mediocre mediocre basketball with unproven veterans and rookies

yeah and then gambling and I just fight and some good food. Yeah, yeah. And I fight with all the Laker fans there because tons of Laker fans drive and, you know- It's very Laker centric.

You could tell they're like 25 year old Armenian dudes whose parents still bought them all their jerseys. You know what I mean? I'm like, you motherfuckers don't have jobs, but you got opinions. I'm going to argue with you. Are you ready for the Laker fan frenzy that's about to happen right now? Oh, I can't wait.

I've been telling everybody I can to put me in touch with Lance Stevenson, because I'm like, I want to open, because Brooklyn has amazing chicken wing fried hard Chinese spots. Yeah. Like just bulletproof Chinese food. And there's no good bulletproof Chinese food in LA. I'm like,

Lance, I want to open. It's on the outskirts. It's in San Gabriel. Yeah, well, they don't even do that. They don't even like bulletproof, like the DC mumbo sauce, like fried chicken, you know, the like Brooklyn fried chicken, like halal fried chicken and fried rice. Like that's just a genre of food that doesn't exist in LA.

Well, why don't we start it? Yeah, so I'm like, yo- Start a restaurant. I want to open a place called Lance Stevenson's that is like a secret tiki bar that just serves bulletproof Chinese food. That'd be amazing. I mean, unfortunately, Lance is probably not going

to be on the team in about five months. Yeah, but then he could be at the restaurant. Then he could just work there. Yeah, he could just post. I'm like, yo, you could get as many shots as you want here I do feel like Lance Stevenson opening a Chinese food restaurant owns the internet for like 36 hours

like what better PR could you have imagine a secret tiki bar in LA with that food called Coney Island do you know what I mean a tiki bar and then Coney I'm just like Lance if you're listening bro I'm ready to open Coney Island this is a great idea. Yeah.

How does a Knicks fan talk shit to a Laker fan, though? You're like 10 to, I don't count the Minneapolis titles. So you're at least 10 titles behind them. Yeah, we're terrible. I was basically just yelling at them. Like, did you actually buy your jersey? Did your dad buy you those shoes at Kith? Do you know what I mean?

I was more like going at them that they didn't have their own money. You should. You go by like, that they didn't have their own money. You should. You go there like, well, you also have 1970 and 1973. Yeah, man. We fucked you up in 1970. Walt Frazier. I wasn't even born.

Yeah, semantics. I know Clyde more for that he has Clyde's wine and dine. Right. I was more there for that ribbon cutting. And his announcing all that shit. Yeah, I love Clyde. But no, yeah, there that ribbon cutting. And his announcing all that shit. Yeah. I love, I love Clyde, but no, yeah,

there's nothing we can really say to Lakers fans. There's nothing we can say to any fans besides maybe like Hawks fans. Nets fans. You have. Yeah. Nets fans are the worst. They're like your Clippers. Yeah.

That's the only, that's the only team you could have moved to New York. And Knicks fans were still like, nah, I'm not switching. You know? Right. They're that bad.

They would have been better off disbanding the team and forming a new expansion team. Yeah. And just been like, our history's gone. We're now a different team. Yeah. We're the Brooklyn Bridge. Yeah. There you go.

Or yeah, the Brooklyn Lance Stevenson's. We would have like, I might've switched if they were like, we're the Lance Stevenson's. It's kind of, when you think about about it it's a spectacular failure yeah they go into New York right as the Knicks had this little brief resurgence but then crater completely yeah they have unlimited money to spend yeah they're in Brooklyn where the entire internet is basically 92% of the internet's there vice is there all these different things are there all young New Yorkers are moving there the stadium's there. Vice is there. All these different things are there. All young New Yorkers are moving there. The stadium's right in the middle of everything. It's like, how do you fuck that up? It's impossible.

I mean, definitely they should have changed the name. And then also the mascot was like this weird knight. Do you know what I mean? Who is the knight? And it was, they definitely bumblefucked. I felt like it was dark too. The only good thing about going there is the food's really good. It's unusually good for basketball.

I used to love the Buffalo Boss chicken tenders. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Barclays is great for fights. Like I love going for the fights. What do you mean? Like boxing matches. Oh, the boxing. I thought you were talking about fights in the stands.

I really, I've been telling people though, the Barclays Center, I think they want to kill poor people because the upper bowl is on such an incline. Like people die every game. They want people to tumble over? Yeah, I think they're trying to kill poor people because the upper bowl is on such an incline like people die people to tumble over yeah i think they're trying to kill poor people in there like if you can't afford to unclutter brooklyn yeah they're like trying to gentrify by killing people in the upper bowl well that's you must have gone to yankee stadium right yeah the upper deck in the old yankee stadium was the most harrowing place to be in the United States.

It was like leaning out of a skyscraper. You're going down. You've had five beers. You're holding drinks. And it's like, there's 90 things that can go wrong. I'm convinced that was part of Giuliani's clean up New York. He's like, can you make the deck more treacherous? Can we put grease on the stairs? Yeah.

Just fucking make it as dangerous as possible what do you think where did when you lived in new york where'd you live were you brooklyn i i started off on orchard street i used to pay this lady in the aroville first store and i stayed upstairs because she like had a broker rep the whole the building for her but like my parents became friends with her because my dad was looking at cheap furs. You know, like my dad sees like a cheap fur or fake fur spot. He's like, oh, I'm going in, you know? And it was like a Russian Chinese business connection. Right.

And like, if you've ever been to Beijing, like Russians come by our shit and then they bring their shit and we buy it. And it's like, it's always a great deal. So my dad starts talking to her and he's like, yeah, I like brought my son. We're like looking for an apartment. He's moving to New York. This is like right after college and um she's like oh you know you can avoid a broker fee if you want to stay upstairs just have him pay me cash under the table when the broker comes he just has to pretend like he's not there so i lived on orchard for a

year then i was east village and then chinatown and then fort green i've been in fort green for a minute right behind the Barclays. Oh, but before Barclays, it was Barclays. Before Barclays. Where do you live now? ULA? Yeah, I'm downtown LA. I live on like 8th and Olive.

And then I still got the place in Brooklyn, but I'm in LA a lot more. LA has transformed over these last, I've been here 15 years. It's really interesting to watch it happen. Yeah. But from a food standpoint, it's been really cool. I really feel like the LA food scene right now is- It's better than New York.

As interesting as it's been. Yeah. The two pockets of food you don't have is great Jewish food. Well, three pockets is great Jewish food, the Caribbean food, and bulletproof Chinese. Those are like the three things I miss from New York. You know, otherwise- When you say the great, like you don't feel like the delis are up to par

or like other kind of food? The funny thing with the delis here is you have the greatest deli besides Zingerman's in Ann Arbor. Zingerman's in Ann Arbor is like a real monster. But Langer's has better pastrami sandwich than Katz's, than Second Avenue Deli. But it's just like you have one. There's not like a bagel spot.

The smoked fish game, it's like Italian dudes selling you smoked fish and lox. Do you know what I mean? And I kind of like, you know. You're dubious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a little dubious, you know. So you don't have the smoked fish game

or the bagels that are as good. The bagel scene is bad here. It's bad. The bagel scene is bad. I gave up bagels, so I don't miss it. But it was pretty rough. Oh, wow. Factors on Beverly Hills is good as a deli.

I heard about that. It's an old school giant deli. They got really good soups and big sandwiches. And I like that place. That's the best one I've stumbled into. The two best delis is Bay Cities in Santa Monica. Bay City's phenomenal. All right?

Yeah. And Langer's, you know? But those are like in two different cities. One's in like- And meanwhile, New York, it's like every five blocks. Every five blocks. Like City Sub is so good in Brooklyn. Like City Sub, I love.

That's probably my favorite. What do you think about that? Because it's like a grinder style. How about the Koreatown scene? It's the best. Yeah. I stay eating Koreatown, Thai town, Chinese Taiwanese food and SGV. And then the taco trucks, like people from New York,

the biggest complaint you first come here is, where's my Jamaican spot and where's my bodega? But once you get into the taco trucks and you strategically find your taco joints, those are like amazing. And the third one is, where's my sauna where john travolta might walk in at three in the morning those are the three those are the three things you would love this i sat with john travolta in a sauna no no at fenway but it was equally as weird as sitting with him in a sauna because the dude it definitely wasn't we were we were first row at the devil rays uh red socks playoff game. Yeah.

The division. The division. Oh, yeah. When Poppy hit the walk off Homer. And I was with them. Big comeback game. It was amazing. But we lost the series, unfortunately.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But John Schvulte was there sipping an espresso, just pounding espressos, multiple espressos in the front row. And I was like, wow. He's trying to regenerate his hair growth. I believe everything I heard about you now.

He's like, did you just tap my foot? What's your interpretation of LA? What's your interpretation of LA as a sports town? It's a funny sports town. Like, you know, LA, I've started to love. It's like, you got to find your taco trucks. You got to find your basketball runs. I found my boxing gym and then I found my friends, you know.

In that order. In that order. Yeah. Like, cause friends is harder than the taco truck was easier to find. I found Leo's and I found a lady down the block from me. Then, you know. Where's Leo's taco truck? Leo's is in Echo Park, right across from the tennis courts.

Okay. So I play tennis with my buddy Greg and then we go to Leo's. And then, but the sports scene, it's a weird sports town because, you know, a lot of people like in Hollywood, they do productions with athletes or they've met an athlete. So then they think they know sports and they want to talk to you about it.

And then very quickly you realize like in LA, there's just people like to talk about things they have very minimal knowledge about and act like they have more knowledge about it so i see through that it's one of my favorite pastimes to just pick that apart like a butterfly it is so easy to tell who actually follows sports yeah like with you you're dressed like like you're at summer league camp so i was at the rest of the NBA. This guy really fucking loves Summer League. Yeah, I love Summer League. But there's some other ones, mispronunciations of some names.

Yeah. And sometimes people are not understanding the salary cap. Well, next year we'll be able to get Klay Thompson, Kawhi, and Jimmy Butler. And it's like, no, you won't. You actually, that's impossible. And the recycling of hot takes.

Like I listen to all the NBA podcasts. I'm like, you won't. You actually, that's impossible. And the recycling of hot takes. Like if you, like I listen to all the NBA podcasts, I'm like, you just recycled a hot take. Like I listened. Yeah. Or like the first 10 minutes of Coward Show or like my podcast, like they'll go to their one spot to steal three opinions and then just go.

But you were legendary at the runs because I play Lion Center and you have a legendary. Oh yeah, I was there two years. Mid-range baseline jumper you heard about that scouting report on you really yeah oh i'm so honored nobody believes now i'm so washed up no you know i mean if you play with bill just keep him off keep him off the corner you know that's what i heard that's incredible jacoby and i went for two years

and then my body broke down i'd stop playing but yeah yeah they would play. One of the crazy things about pickup here was they would play 11 by ones, but the three pointers were twos. Yeah, which is bad math. It was like Daryl Moriball times a million, just people jacking up threes. Yeah. So I was like Popovich.

I was like, look, I'm good from 19. I'm going to continue to take my 19 footer for one point. See, I make- But it's going to go in. I make the racial stereotypes work for me at basketball because i'm like i'll argue with people i'm like look i look like you shouldn't pass me the ball fine don't pass me the ball but we should play twos and threes to 15 like yeah if you're gonna trust me on something it's the numbers play twos and threes

to 15 yeah and then they're like all right well if you don't have to pass you the ball cool or it should have been twos and threes to like 17 or whatever. Yeah. When we were going there, it was really interesting. We used to, we used to call the first court was where all the best players were. That was MSG. And then you have the international court. The second court was the middle one.

It was, it was basically all Asian. Yeah. There was some, we get some international and then the third court was just the wild card court. Sometimes it was good. Sometimes it was bad. Yeah. But the, the goal was to get on the first court because that's you want to play with the best yeah and the only time it would get fucked up was if um like the ufc left tackle was like hey i want to play for two hours it's like when the football player's 6.5 300 we

don't have anyone who can guard you yeah and like somebody always loses a cheekbone because whoever whoever played on the football team and wanted cardio, they'd come play. And you're just like, dude, this guy is about to, like Rick Mahorn everybody in here. But the Chinese court's always interesting to me because it's like, wow, they're running like a five man motion off.

There's no big man. So it's just like running in circles. It's a lot of running. It's a lot of running. It actually was a good place to get exercise. You know, it's amazing. The Chinese court is the best road work if you're boxing like ever.

Yeah, it's just like Rick Adleman would have like jizzed his pants watching. It's a lot of hustling. Yeah. It was a very hustle court. Yeah, I used to love the dynamics of that. It was fun for me because, especially I started going on TV

the second year we were going. So we'd get recognized more, but people were totally cool. Super cool. And it was never like one of those things like, I got him. I'm going to shut him down. It was more like worked in our benefit. We'd have like a couple of the best players like, Simmons, Jacoby, come with us.

Oh, sick. So it was like, I don't know. It was fun. I thought I really had a good time. I miss, how old are you now? I'm 36. Oh, you have a lot of time left. I can still ball.

You got five years left. Yeah. Fuck. I miss, how old are you now? I'm 36. Oh, you have a lot of time left. I can still ball. You got five years left. Yeah, fuck. I really miss it. It was honestly my favorite thing to do. Yeah, well you could. It was how I met a lot of my friends. There's an old guy, Ron. There's a couple old guys. I'm too old. The problem for me now is you get hurt. Yeah. And

the other problem is, you'll understand this someday. You hit like 43, 44 and your brain still works, but your brain can't totally tell your body what to do. So there'll be a rebound and you have position. You're like, hey, there's the ball. I should go get that. And your body's just watching it.

And then somebody jumps over you and gets the ball. And you're like, why didn't I get that? I don't understand what just happened. So yeah, it's a bummer. I was just, when I get old and I feel old, I just go to like basketballreference.com and I look up like Kevin Willis stats or Otis Thorpe.

I'm like, all right. So he, Kevin Willis was still doing it. Like I'll be okay, you know? Let's take a quick break. Let's talk about Casper, a sleep brand that continues to revolutionize its line of products to create an exceptionally

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when teams do really stupid shit? Because it's my favorite thing. Yeah, it's always so surprising to me, like the drop off between the top eight players or the top eight coaches or the top eight GMs. Cause after that, it just bums. Yeah. You know, there's, there's pretty much eight good dudes or, or women that like, whatever it is, you know, eight, eight good people at any job, I really feel.

And then it tails off. And then when you get to the tail end, that's when the Trey Young trade happens. Yeah, I love listening to that Trey Young episode you had. It was like with the Ryan dude with the E, Ryan. Ryan Rosillo. Yeah, you guys were killing him. And I

agree with every one of them. I got super upset. Because that to me feels like it's going to be as bad as George Hill Kawhi. Maybe worse. Potentially could be worse, but yeah. The best part for trades like that for me is when they have the chance to take the franchise guy, but then they, they get more assets and roll it over for the chance a year from now to trade thereafter to franchise guys. Like just, yeah.

What are you doing? And Ryan was talking about like how it was a headline thing and it was like, Hey, we want to like get people excited and be the worst i was like you know what would have got people excited in atlanta is luca donchus's mom luca donchus's mom would have been my number one pick in this draft oh is she looking oh my god really yeah smoking so i always feel like like a like a like a fully mature annaournikova. I was like, holy shit. Seriously? Yeah, no disrespect, Luka.

Don't just, no disrespect. We need a lot of confidence and swag though. The mom is a five tool player. Well, if you're hip, you need a lot of swag though because your friends have been joking about how they want to have sex with their mom since you were like 12. And you have to learn how to defend yourself.

Yeah, for sure. Which is not much different than getting clotheslined on a drive to the basket. Yeah, he sure. Which is not much different than getting clotheslined on a drive to the basket. Yeah, he's definitely got armor. You know what I mean? I like it. I love how he's playing with all the grownups overseas. And of course, the league picks that apart.

And they're like, well, he tailed off near the end. You mean, oh, I'm sorry, he tailed off in game 85? Yeah. He's 18. He played 98 game regular season. He can do anything that you want on the floor. And when people were starting to talk about explosiveness, I'm like, basketball is not a 40 yard dash game.

Right. It's about angles. It's like more like boxing than it is. And burst and speed and anticipating. Yeah. All that shit. Yeah, Larry Bird, my favorite player, wouldn't have been great in a foot race.

No. But like you watched the steal on Isaiah Thomas and he's moving even before Isaiah's passing the ball. Yeah. I think Doncic has some of that. A lot of it. I'm excited for these rookies. Yeah.

And the one thing I like to see with Doncic is, which is interesting and this may sound weird, but when he dribbles, his hands are separate from the respective leg and foot like some guys it's like you know if they're gonna like dribble right it's gonna come their whole body goes yeah their whole body goes that way and it's like because i box it's one of those things you try to confuse people by not matching like every time i step with my right i'm gonna throw with my right you know like or if i'm gonna uppercut it's not always gonna be a hook coming back like the

uppercut to the straight left if you're a southpaw, it's like people just don't see it. And Doncic's hands don't always match his feet. And I'm like, he's going to get people. Manu is like that. James Harden's obviously the greatest example of that. James Harden, his body is never doing what it seems like it should have been doing.

And nobody can figure him out. And that's why he scores 30 points a game and loses in the Western Finals every year because of some sort of tragedy. I mean, I feel like they could have beat the Warriors. I mean, they were up on the Warriors, but it's like, I don't know, man. Like who the hell is going to ever beat the Warriors?

It's hard to get closer than that. Yeah, it's insane. I'm not buying Lakers stock. I actually think the Lakers are going to be good. I think it's funny that people think this is going to be a throwaway season. They have the best player in the league when he wants to be

and great fans and a bunch of young guys. And they'll be really hard to beat at home. And I'm a weird, I'm into federalism. It's like, all right, it's not a throwaway year. They're going to experiment and try to figure out some sort of different way to play, I think. I think it's kind of actually genius. Do you go to these games? Do you like going to Laker games? I go to Clipper games think. Yeah. I think it's kind of actually genius, you know? Do you go to these games?

Do you like going to Laker games? I go to Clipper games. Me too. Because it's like, the fans are more fun at Clipper games. It's like a lot of just cheap families,

like crazy frugal Asians are like at the Clipper games. I'm into it. I'm excited that they're back because I got the season tickets in 04 and it was like getting season tickets to

just a train wreck. Yeah. It was awesome. Oh, yeah. It was like $100 tickets to just a train wreck. Yeah. It was awesome. Oh, yeah. It was like $100 a game, and I got to watch guys stink eye each other on the court and not try, and I got to see the other players on the other teams,

and then they became good. Yeah. And it never really kind of fit in with who they were, and now they're kind of back to this weird hodgepodge. I don't know what the fuck they are. And they were good in a bad way. Like Blake Griffin, if you like basketball,

you don't want to watch Blake Griffin dribble off his foot with Chris Paul on the team. Right. You know, I'm like, what are they, an ISO at the top for Blake Griffin? Like you have Chris Paul.

The first year of Blake was amazing though. Yeah, first year of Blake's cool. That first Lob City year was pretty great. Yeah. And that was really fun to go to those games. Then when he tried to do his Antoine Walker impersonations, I was like, dude, come on. Like, I haven't seen anyone dribble off their foot or throw the ball out of bounds like this since Antoine.

It's amazing the Knicks didn't trade for him. Yeah, yeah. He's a classic Knick. Him and Antoine. Oh, my God. Him, Antoine. They're like Steve Francis. Can we get you four years too late?

Great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We got you. You want to throw the ball out of bounds? Fucking come to New York. They have a habit. That's why my Knick fans I know who are already very focused on KD.

Yeah. And I've listened to all the conspiracy theories. Rich Kleiman loves the Knicks. He'll bring him there. He knows. Rich Kleiman knows. He grew up here. He knows this is the biggest thing KD can do.

Yeah. But in classic Knicks fashion, they would get him when he has like 50,000 minutes in his odometer and is just starting to break down. So this is a funny one. And I said this last year during the draft because I was a huge Jason Tatum fan. Like I watched Jason Tatum in college.

My boy. Yeah. I wanted the Knicks. I was like, I would trade KP for Tatum and then like the two- I think the Celtics would have done that. I think there Knicks. I was like, I would trade KP for Tatum and then like the two Celtics. I think the Celtics would have done that. I think there was on the table, there was that Phoenix trade that was on the table and the Celtics won because I was like, dude, I would take Tatum and like two of the Celtics

picks for KP, you know? I think what the Celtics wanted to do was, I think they would have traded that pick for Porzingis. Yeah. But I think that was the offer. Yeah. And Phil Jackson came in and was like, alright, we'll do it for Jalen Brown, that

pick, and four number ones. And they were just like, are you fucking serious? Old man? Jason Tatum and two first rounders would have got it done. Well, now you have Kevin Knox, the slightly poor man's Jason Tatum, hopefully. I don't think he'll be as good as Jason Tatum, but he's got the same kind of,

the shoulders and the 6'9", and he's got the inside-out side game, potentially. I liked him. I was impressed by him at Summer League. Yeah, I was very, I love Kevin Knox. He's a little bit more, I think he may end up having the better jumper. He may be better on the curls and the jumpers,

but Tatum has that side-to-side. It's like when you see a safety like kevin knox if he was a safety more like cam chancellor like tatum is more like earl thomas like that dude's gonna go sideline to sideline yeah there's two good signs with tatum one is that by the way my staff is so tired of hearing me talk about tatum i mean but it's been a running joke at the ringer um one thing the biggest criticism for him is he doesn't seem to realize that he's as good as he is, which is something you realize over time. And then the second thing is that he went to Duke.

Yeah, smart dude. Super smart. No, I would say that's a bad thing. You think so? No, it's hard for me to get around that. Oh, I hate Duke. We have JJ Redick on our podcast network. He's helped me kind of feel better about Duke,

but I'm still not totally there. Yeah, I mean, I hate Duke, but they produce good players. And I mean, this is one of the things in the group chat though. There's a couple of guys who are like, Duke, for how much talent they have, I don't know if Krzyzewski makes them better players.

I'm like, actually he does. He changes his system every year, caters them to dudes. If they come to the NBA and they don't do well, it ain't makes them better players. I'm like, actually, he does. He changes his system every year, caters them to dudes. Like, if they come to the NBA and they don't do well, it ain't Duke's fault. I like your group chat. Our group chat is fine.

How many people in the group chat? There's about like nine people and it started from our Vegas Summer League trip. So we call it, it's girls trip, but make it ball. So it's a pretty good group chat. A bunch of the guys play with your Lions. No, no, no, just on like iPhone. Yeah. Yeah, it's a pretty good group chat a bunch of the guys play with your lions on slack? no no no just on like iPhone

oh yeah it's a good chat we just every day there's some dumbass that's like alright alright this guy a top 50 player or not

you know can Klay Thompson lead a team by himself like Klay Thompson is the most divisive dude in the group chat cause I'm

I'm like a huge Klay Thompson fan he's a good litmus test for how much do you know about basketball. Yeah. Because to find a player that good with all those skills. Who's completely unselfish. Yes.

And who, by the way, if you ask anywhere on your team, who's your favorite teammate? They're like, Klay Thompson. Yeah. Yeah. He's like, cross the board. They fucking love Klay Thompson. Yeah. I think he's like Kawhi Leonard with less jelly. Do you know what I mean? Like, if you made a peanut butter sandwich with syrup instead of jelly, like, that's Klay Thompson. Kawhi Leonard with less jelly. Do you know what I mean? Like if you made a peanut butter sandwich with syrup instead of jelly, like that's Klay Thompson.

It's Kawhi Leonard without Uncle Dennis. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love Klay, man. He's, him and like Joe Ingles might be my two favorite NBA players. Joe, unbelievable. Yeah. You know Joe Ingles is like 30? No way.

Yeah. Really? Yeah, Joe Ingles is, he didn't get to the league until he was like 26. And the Clippers let him go. Yeah. Classic Clippers. I got a question for you. Would you rather, do you did you rather want Gordon Hayward or Joe Ingles that offseason last

Oh, Gordon Hayward. You want a Hayward. Yeah. Let's not get carried away with Joe Ingles. I love Joe Ingles. I don't know. I mean, I wanted him instead of Tim Hardaway Jr. I was like, fuck, we signed Tim Hardaway for 70? I was about to jump out a window. Well, especially the cap space aspects of it. I mean, we got some of the worst, the Joe Keem Noah contract.

That was bad. It seems like he has real problems now too. Yeah. I mean, I love Joe Keem and we see him in the streets all the time. Like he's in the club, but I'm like, if you really love new york fam you will retire well right like if you love new york as much as you say please just retire well you just listed part of the problem yeah we see him in the clubs all the time he's definitely out here pouring it up westbrook's like trapped in some high school gym right now working on 380 uh step back jumpers yeah jo. Joakim Noah is like nursing a hangover or something.

Yeah, poor Joakim. Somebody get Russell to practice chest passes, dog. Or moving without the ball. Yeah, try something. That's one of my favorite soap operas this year. And you play basketball, so you get this. You know, they're the guys that show up and they're gonna to help your team

win, but it's not going to be fun to play with them. No. And you have to make, especially if you're waiting and you're two games away, three games away. And somebody's like, Hey man, you want to run? And you know who it is. And you've watched him play. And you're like, all right, if I play with this guy, he's going to shoot 50% of our shots and insist on distributing the other 50%. And I'm just not going to have that much fun, shots and insist on distributing the other 50%. And I'm just not going to have that much fun, but I might stay on the court for two hours because he's that good. Yeah.

And I feel like Westbrook has become the NBA version of that guy. Where Paul George looks at it is like, I get to stay on the court. I get to go to round two. Yeah. I'll make the max. Yup. But don't you think he's that guy in the NBA? Yeah, no, for sure.

I mean, I play with that guy like at my basketball with my boy Mitch, who's amazing. And we stay on the court for like five games. But he's like hardened. Like he wants to ISO. He doesn't want anyone on his side. He wants no screen. And he dribbles and dribbles.

And he slow plays people. He has a real good like switch speed game. But then he'll kick it to you and i'm like dude i've been open for five plays you didn't kick it to me now you throw it to me and then he stings eyes you he stink eyes me that's why victor oladipo left yeah i was like dude what the fuck dude you look at me for 10 minutes yeah because if you're a shooter and you're open you're ready and you're cocked and you need the ball and if you're not gonna pass it then i don't have any rhythm with you you know i was always amazed the cleveland guys always eventually kind of figured out

how to know when lebron was going to pass to them yeah because lebron could basically every play you don't know what's going to happen but corver was always kind of ready for it and so was jr not that jr ever made him but uh unfortunately when i play with my boy mitch i'm like delonte west i'm like fuck i'm clanking like corner threes but i just have no rhythm you know i play with my boy mitch i'm like delante west i'm like fuck i'm clanking like corner threes but i'm just have no rhythm you know what i mean i'm sorry mitch yeah i'm sorry all the time my bad mitch i was like yo just throw it to me when i'm on the wing like throw initial offense give it to me on the wing so you're one of those guys professionally that your hands are in a whole bunch of different things. Yeah. You're like a hard person to describe in a sentence. Was that intentional or?

Well, yeah, I think it was intentional. Like I never liked to be tied down to one thing, but I just remember as a kid, like in history books, reading about Renaissance dudes and I was like, oh, this is pretty cool. And then like, you know. What was the first thing you were good at?

The first thing I was good at is talking shit. Okay. Like when kids had jokes at school, I was really good at like snapping back and people were like, oh wow, this, he like, he will like stab you in the heart. That sounds like my son. Yeah. My son's insults are like a little too good. Nephew Kyle can agree.

Yeah. My son's roasting is like good for age 10. He knows what hurts, you know? Yeah. He goes right to it. My shit was roasting because there good for age 10. He knows what hurts, you know? Yeah. He goes right to it. My shit was roasting because there'd be like a bully in class or whatever. And I would just be quiet. But then one day the bully would come for me.

And I'm like, yo, you're actually, you're insecure. You hate yourself. And you probably have a small penis. And like in fourth grade, that's just like explosive, you know? And then the bully's my best friend because he's like, just don't cut me. No one else can hurt me but you. So like, I was just that kid because I was was like don't come for me because i'm getting beat at home you know what i mean and uh so that was my thing and then writing um i like scored

really high on the psat in like seventh eighth grade and i tested into this like talent identification program but i was just all math and my my mom was like, yo, you should probably like practice English. So I went to Davidson College, took this English course, and I just got really into writing. And I'm not even blowing hot air up your ass. I was a big Page Two fan. Thanks, man. Because you were writing in a way that I was like, wait, I write like this, but my teachers get mad in school. And I was like, wait wait you're allowed to do this shit and even first time i ever got published was on page two of the orlando sentinel wrote about the malice at the palace and then funny enough when i was selling fresh off the boat no one believed in me selling

fresh off the boat i wrote this like 60 page like everyone wanted a recipe book yeah it was funny you were you were a chef at that point. Yeah. And this was right after David had put out the Momofuku book. So it was like very in vogue to do like the Asian cookbook. And everyone's like, dude, I could get you a huge advance. And I was like, I don't want to do the cookbook. And I was like, I want to write the Asian coming of age story. Cause all we have is like joy luck club and tiger mom was out making us like look terrible. So no agent believed in me. I went through a couple agents. They were still cookbook.

And then one agent said to me, if you write like two chapters, show it to me, like I'll read it. I'm not gonna tell you I'm gonna sell it, but I'll read it. So I one weekend wrote 60 pages, showed it to my agent, Mark Gerald. Then we had, he was like, all right, I believe this. We had meetings at like the five biggest publishing houses

a week later. And the last meeting, I go to Random House. You know, when you go into Random House, there's all like the amazing books. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, these are cool books. Like the books that they make you read in school. I go into the conference room

before Chris Jackson walks in. I'm looking and I see like your big book of basketball. Yeah. I'm like, oh, all right, they got good your big book of basketball yeah I'm like oh all right they got good books here nice and I'm like all right cool because I had read it random house yeah I read the book and I always liked the chapter on like Penny and Weber yeah there's a Penny Weber chapter and I was like all right yeah I think I could be a random house and they're like you read our books you read like the other Westmore I'm like oh I read that big book of basketball but it was like you know like you're you're one of the dudes i saw doing a lot of different things

i was always into like this sounds nerdy but like i like shakespeare i like jonathan swift i like mark twain i like the renaissance men like i always was like i just want to express myself like i don't know why i don't know why we here. Like the central theme to all my work in writing is like, who knows if there's an afterlife? Who knows what the purpose of this is? I just know it's a lot of fun. And would Summer League be there? Summer, yeah. Is there a Summer League after death?

Is there a Summer League afterlife? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is there another summer league? It's where Mitchell Robinson will go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I need Mitchell Robinson. And he'll just get double doubles. Yeah.

So I just was like, I don't need to do one thing. There's not one part. I'm just going to have a great time. So I think that's what got me into all these different things. You got a lot of press when you got mad about what they did to your book as a TV show. Do you regret some of that or you stand by it? You know, I regret sending the emails to the writer, showrunner personally, right? But it was like a power struggle she she like

wasn't that receptive to having me in the room and was kind of like i'm gonna do this and i was like all right well i feel like i'm being shut out so i'm gonna come for you but i definitely crossed the line yeah i crossed the line yeah you know and well there was also the stakes were pretty high just because um this is something i Cho and those guys always talk about, the representation. Yeah. Especially on networks. And then when you see the movie and you see these crazy rich Asians movie, which a lot of people like. Yeah.

And yet Chang and Cho are like, they're like, fuck that movie. We're not going to see that. Yeah. And I don't know. It's tough. It's that balance of, all right, we're here, but we're not here in the right way. Yeah, it's really tough because we're in the like ice age

of Asian America media still, you know? But the thing for me that gave me a lot of confidence as a kid was like, I started to watch like fifth wave Chinese cinema, like Zhang Yimou, Chen Kai-Tzu, Raise the Red Lantern, Pharaoh and My Concubine, Beijing Bicycle. I would watch like Edward Yang, like Taiwanese new New Wave films, Rebel of the Neon God, I saw recently too, and

E-Drink Man Woman. So I always knew, Kurosawa, Asian people make fire shit. It's never been a question to me that we could make this. It's that like, can we make our stuff in our voice and in our skin in America? That's been the challenge. It's never been to me to prove that I could do it or Asians could do it. I always knew we could do this stuff. It said in America, you have to kind of do it their way. And, you know, I felt a lot of responsibility when we did Fresh Off the Boat. I did it. I had a lot of hesitation, but I knew we needed to get on base. Just like it is very important that Crazy Rich Asians is out. But I flamed my own show because I was like, I'm going to take it.

I'm going to get on base. But I'm telling you, like, I shouldn't have had to go opposite field on this one. I should have had the green light to crank this over to fucking Monster. You know? Do you wish you had done that? What was 14 or 15 2014 yeah because nowadays that's probably hulu or you have more control and you're able to control more of it yeah i mean you missed your window by like two years with that i yeah i'm okay though i had to go first i think it's meant to be like i think i had the stomach to go first i think I had the stomach to also like get it on, but then kind of like almost like stab myself so that Asian Americans that

did not see themselves in the show could have an out and be like, Hey, I don't have to like this show just because like all the Asian people are telling me to like this show. I don't have to like it, you know? And I think with Crazy Rich Asians, there's a thing too, because I mean, the Asians that are projected are very successful, very smart, high test scores, wealthy at times, you know, those are the Asians that Asians want to see. But there's a lot of poor Asians in America, especially like Southeast Asians that don't get that much representation, you know? And I'm happy for this film. I'm super happy to see like Awkwafina star go crazy,

Constance, Ronnie Chang, all these guys. But like, it is really interesting to be like, you have to support this movie and kind of like this type of Asian, you know what I mean? That feels very strange. Yeah, I don't, when does it come out? This weekend or next weekend? I think next weekend.

I think next week, like I was excited for Gook. Like Justin Chan made that film Gook. And then Christine Cho, like actually, like for both of those filmmakers, I went and did their Q and A's like at the theater. I like actually hit them up and was like, yo, I want to do it for you. Yeah.

Bring some people. Cause like, I think your work is great. So said I did the Q&A for Gook I did the Q&A for like uh that film Nancy that Christine Rowland directed there's a lot of good Asian writer directors actors working Crazy Rich Asians don't need my help it don't need David's help it don't need anybody's help I think it's gonna do really well well. It's, it's a monster. It's going to sweep clean and I'm happy for it. But like, I just hope that, um, it opens the door to more voices as opposed to like, all right, we want this voice and only this face. So did when you, when you, uh, feuded with your own show, did that make it harder for you to sell stuff going forward or not really? Uh, it, it was, it's, it's interesting. It's a good question because it made it harder for me

to sell stuff to the people I probably don't need to be selling stuff to, but it definitely made it better for me to sell stuff to the people who like, do get me. I remember Jonah Hill running up to me at like Charlie bird, the restaurant. He's like, yo, I've never seen anybody do that. Like did what you did at the TCAs. And then also like that article fresh out the book, when you'd like flamed your own choice, like that like that was ballsy dude and i i really i respected that like it meant a lot to me and like a lot of other people that i consider artists auteurs were like yo man like i don't know who you are kid you just got to la but like that was ballsy and um i live in i live with it i super, I don't regret any of it

besides the personal attacks on like, you know, Nanachka. Kyle, don't get any ideas about flaming my podcast. Yeah, you're a street cred. I got nothing to say. Don't learn any lessons from this. What about restaurants? Are you gonna open a restaurant here or anything? I mean, dude, I'm trying to open Coney Island.

Like I'm really super serious about this. So that might actually happen. Yeah. I'm really, I have a partner. I felt like you were half serious. I didn't know you were full serious. Oh no. I like have a property I've identified.

I have a partner that my buddy Jim Starr, who owns like the blood sews in Hollywood. Like, you know, he does blood sews, Kofax, Prime Pizza, Golden State. So he's my partner. We're like, this is like our thing. We want to open Coney Island. Where's, Kofax, Prime Pizza, Golden State. So he's my partner. We're like, this is like our thing. We want to open Coney Island.

Where's, Koreatown? Downtown LA? I think just so that he doesn't have to travel, it's like most likely going to be Fairfax or something like that. Okay. But then I also want to do something on Saltel. Like I like Saltel. Saltel is like a funky block.

I'm into all the businesses there. You should open another restaurant named after like Kevin Knox. Saltel is like a funky block. I'm into all the businesses there. You should open another restaurant named after like Kevin Knox. Yeah, where? Kevin Knox will kick your ass or Kevin Knox is the best. Knox flavor enhancer. Just get all these Knicks fans driving by like,

Kevin Knox, I've got to go. Yeah, I need to just open Knick bars with just bulletproof Chinese food. Is there a Knicks bar? I don't think so. It's just a sad bar. Yeah, it's probably just a methadone clinic. It there a Knicks bar? I don't think so. It's just a sad bar. Yeah. It's probably just a methadone clinic.

It's a bar where they take your keys when you get in. They make sure you don't drive. Yeah. Knicks bar. Yeah, that's true. The weirdest thing about LA is the lack of, you know, basketball is so big here. Yeah.

And just the whole Knicks thing, either people don't admit they're Knicks fans or they kind of get swayed over to an LA team. I hate that. I hate it when people switch. It's like, you got to be a masochist

like to the end. What is funny though that we don't care if somebody gets, like if your buddy was like, I'm getting divorced. I'm like, oh man,

sorry to hear that. But if you had a buddy going, I'm switching from the Knicks to the Lakers, you're like, you motherfucker. How are you doing that? I was a Red Sox fan for years when they were bad.

And when they got good after the second World Series, I was like, I can't cheer for the Red Sox. They're too fucking good. So I started cheering for the Devil Rays. For the Devil Rays? Yeah. Well, you don't have to ever worry about them being good. Yeah. They're terrible.

They're terrible. So I flipped to the Devil Rays after the Red Sox won. Their whole business motto is to suck for nine years, to be good for the 10th year, and then suck again for the next nine years. Yeah, it's like Florida teams. I don't know if it's going to work. Yeah, Devil Rays, Marlins.

It's like, we're good like one year out of every 10. It's amazing, you know? So what's the next big thing for you? Are you still doing the Viceland show? No, I'm not at Viceland anymore. Yeah, we left at Viceland. When did you leave? When was it?

May? Well, just we finished the season and I left on good terms. Seemed like you were done. Yeah, I left on good terms. I'm doing a similar show, like something in the same vein. And we're talking to a bunch of networks now. So we're deciding. We'll probably have an answer in like a week or two of like where that show lands.

What about a show where Tommy goes out on Friday with nba posses and entourages and because him and phil jackson we just go out like the posses with those no those the posse with phil jackson the oapd what do they wear the cameras the body cameras just tommy wears a body camera he's just out with the nba players because that's happening every Friday and Saturday night I kind of want to just see Tommy out with Desus and Mero with a body cam you could be like you'd be like Mizzle

remember the white guy on Purple Haze Cameron's white guy on the Purple Haze album you could be like Mizzle I was actually in that show in the finals for one night and uh it was not filmed but we were out with them on they and I missed three hours and during the

I came back later and I'm like what I missed and they're like oh yeah Kyle was it too I missed a lot I'll put it that way I missed a lot but yeah the Tommy body armor show is a good one for body camera Tommy the body cam that would that would be pretty good I'm in on this restaurant you i'll get you off the record i'll tell you i just want

to eat there as soon as this thing's over i'll tell you it's going to be good it'll be good we found a place with a liquor license it's going to be crazy but uh i write scripts the scripts is my big thing i write i have a basketball movie with like a basketball script i sold the focus features so that's like my baby, you know? Great. Yeah. I hope it's not the Linsanity story.

No, it's, it's not, but it's, it's a good New York basketball story. Great. High school basketball. I'm off for more basketball movies.

Yeah. I'm saving stuff for the next time we do a podcast. Plus it's 98 degrees in my office. This LA heat wave has been atrocious. Screw you LA for the heat wave. Yeah. Thank you for having me, man. Yeah, it's a pleasure.

We're going to get to Jim Miller in a second. But first, don't miss Mark Wahlberg in Mile 22. Only in theaters on August 17th. From Pete Berg, director of Lone Survivor. Comes the most original action throw ride of the summer. Mile 22 follows Wahlberg as the leader of an elite special ops team called Overwatch, which is called upon when the traditional options

of diplomacy and military have failed. They are the third option. Wahlberg and his team, that includes Ronda Rousey and John Malkovich, they embark on an urgent mission to transport a foreign intelligence agent from an American embassy in Southeast Asia to an airfield for

extraction. This asset possesses highly classified information, which could prevent terrorist attacks of catastrophic proportions. Their Overwatch team must travel 90 minutes through a 22-mile gauntlet in enemy territory with the whole city dead set against letting them leave. 22 miles of pulse-pounding, breathless, nonstop action. I'm all in on the Pete Berg, Mark Wahlberg franchise. I didn't even have to read all that stuff. I was going to see this anyway, but it sounds great. Mile 22, I think this is their fourth or fifth collaboration together. Four for four, it sounds like in my opinion. Mile 22 rated RCN and IMAX in premium large format, August 17th.

Let's get to Jim Miller. All right, on the line right now. His professional name is James Andrew Miller. We know him as Jim Miller. He's been on this podcast before. He has a new Origins podcast out that dropped this week about Nick Saban. Jim, how are you? I'm good. Thanks for having me. It's nice to have you on a podcast where we're not just talking about ESPN. That seems like

half of your job now is just going on various podcasts and talking about whatever the F is going on with ESPN. It's like a side job for you. That is an unpaid side job. Luckily for all, it's the gift that keeps giving because there's always something to talk about. It is true. There is always something to talk about. What a lively decade. I was actually thinking it's the five-year anniversary of 2013, which I still feel like was the apex of ESPN where they were just flush with cash. Everything's going their way. Subs are still going up or stable and a FS one is coming and they're just blowing FS one out with offers to different people. They had just done the NBA deal,

the MLB deal. They had the things hadn't gone South with the NFL yet. Would you say that was the apex ESPN? I, I think so in part also because I would add to that list that no one was kind of seeing what was happening around the corner. So it was unbridled enthusiasm, as they say, and it wasn't even like somebody was starting to say, okay, hold on a moment. All this stuff is going on well, but, you know, going very well, but we got some problems down the road.

I don't think there were that many voices in Burbank or Bristol that were, uh, that were raising their hands and saying, you know, this is going to be a problem. What do you feel like this new, this new Disney app that they've launched that is basically going to be Disney movies and there's Hulu involved and, uh, you have the ESPN OTT app, and this is clearly where the business is going. I'm actually, I'm not as pessimistic about ESPN's future as a lot of other people out there are because I think eventually everything moves to the digital side and all of these apps that are going to, you know,

the OTT apps that are basically going to transform their business. ESPN's going to be a part of that, and that'll eventually be how we watch ESPN. Am I being too optimistic? No, I don't think so. I mean, certainly you're, you're in line with what Bob Iger, I think, uh, thinks, but the question becomes, look, how many of these different apps and how many checks are we going to be writing for different players every single

month? You know, I mean, right now we kind of get used to it. We're going to pay Netflix and we're going to pay this one. But I mean, it could be that, you know, under certain scenarios, you have like eight or nine places like that. I don't believe it. So I think there will be some aggregation and there'll be some sort of funny, skinny bundle. And it seems like one of the things that ESPN is doing right now with Disney is making sure that even if there are three or four, they're going to be one of the three or four. And that's not a bad situation. The only problem is if they keep on spending money like they're spending, I understand that they're trying to get people to sign up and everything,

but boy, oh boy, they're going to need a lot of subs for a break even on this stuff. I don't even think they're trying to break even. It seems like this first year, they're just spending and trying to give all these different pockets of sports fans a reason to talk themselves into getting the app where you have like the Pacquiao fights on there and people who love boxing, like, ah, screw it. I'll get the ESPN app or UFC.

And now you see them getting more into fantasy. I think gambling will be the next frontier. They haven't announced their plans on that, but whenever they, whenever they do, I'm sure that's going to be part of the app. They want to make sure that they're part of the conversation and that they're on your phone already. But at some point, they have to make money for it. And so I just think that the real, you know, it makes sense what they're doing now. But I think the real test will be, let's say, two or three years from now.

And tell me the number of subs and we'll be pretty clear about whether or not they're making money or not. Well, it seems like the big, right now they're going for these little pockets just to kind of pull to try to get a small base is my perception of it. Like that's why they completely overspent for the UFC. I thought that what they paid for the UFC was insane.

I was stunned by the number. I know barely anything about this stuff, but it was one of those cases of who are you bidding against? And also, why are you wading into the UFC at probably the worst point of the last 10 years for that company where they really had trouble establishing stars? You have all these weight cutting issues that they're having, PDs, some bets that they made that didn't pay off. And now is the time that they weighted in on that.

I thought that was strange, but I do feel like we're eventually heading for, they're going to overpay. I know nothing. I'm saying this without inside information. They're going to have to overpay for Sunday ticket or NBA League Pass, which are already established properties that belong to those leagues and they have deals and all that stuff. But I think they're going to have to overpay

for one of those things where they just need like a marquee A-list. We have this. You love this product. We already know you're paying X amount for it. You have to get it here. Other than that, I just don't see how they build that

audience in a big way. What do you think? Well, remember, we've bypassed the biggest fork in the road they had, which is whether or not they were going to do anything with what they already own and put it on plus, and whether or not they were even legally allowed to do so. And I think one of the things that the UFC deal shows is that they feel like they don't have enough right now in inventory or what they can do or what they are willing to do in terms of moving from linear. So they have to go out and spend. And given the amount of money that they've spent in the past decade or even the past five years, that's an extraordinary realization on their part. You know, we're going to have to go out and we're going to have to get even more because we don't think we're going to be able to attract enough new customers based on what we have.

If you had to rank the sports properties that the three major players right now have, you have Turner, you have Fox, and you have ESPN. What would be your power rankings for which sports properties would you want out of those three? What would be your first place, second place, third place? Because I think this is a really interesting piece of ESPN's problem right now. They are not the worldwide leader. Other places have really caught in with these impact programming, but I'm interested, what is your one, two, three right now? Well, remember, it's not a level playing field though, because ESPN has different requirements than the other two. They have those 8,760 hours to kind of take care of every year. So this is dating back to like, you know, the late 80s when they did the baseball deal and everybody said

they were crazy, but they need tonnage. And so one of the things that the NBA does for them, even though they split, is it gives them those games that they desperately need. They can't just survive on 17 NFL games. And while it's clear that now under the new regime that they're going to try and keep the NFL, that's just not enough. It used to be really, really important to them because it changed their sub-fees. But now that's really not the case. I mean, it is to a certain degree, but not as much as it used to be. So I think that each place is trying to figure out

its own level of profitability and relevance. But I'm not so sure that in the next, let's say, starting about a year from now, we're going to go on a kind of a shopping spree, right? A lot of rates are going to be coming up. And I think that ESPN is going to have to be more selective given the financial equation and the fact that Burbank isn't going to just let them buy everything. And plus, they need money for digital now. You and I both think the NBA thing, in retrospect, was actually, I thought, the best big rights deal that Skipper made. They bought into a league at the perfect point. I know Dyche and others criticize it, but my gosh.

They're stupid. Can you imagine if they didn't have it? No, they're stupid. They bought into the league right as the league was taking off. The Raiders are going up. And the one thing that's really different from even when I was there after I did the first countdown season, because I remember being like, why don't we have an afternoon show?

Why isn't there a daily NBA show? We're talking to all these different people and they're like, ah, that only works for the NFL. The attitude was that an afternoon NBA show would not work, that there was not an audience, that you could not sustain it year round. There was no model for it. And now not only can you sustain it year round, you could argue it should be an hour and you could argue that it's actually a more important show for them than NFL live. A lot of the, it's,

it's at least equal. Um, so I think. Particularly with the, with the culture. I mean, look, one of the differences between the Stern era and Adam Silver's era is I really believe that the, that the NBA became a legitimate 11-month property under Adam's watch for a variety of reasons. And I also feel like there's a cachet or there's other elements. There's cultural elements of it. I don't know.

The social thing is just wild about the NBA draft in a way that it never used to be, and the personalities and the trades and everything else. Yeah. But Jim, that stuff, that stuff was there. This was why this is so frustrating for me in the moment. Like when I remember in 2013, me and Jalen did the, uh, did the previews for each team that we ended up just putting on YouTube and we desperately wanted to put those on sports center and the people running sports center were like, nah, we can't do that. Nah, we're not going to devote four minute stretches to, you know, breaking down an NBA team

before the season. That's crazy. What do you think was the game changer? What was, what, what was, what became different if you think it was already there? Because I just don't, I think there were enough people that,

like the people who were saying no to you and Jalen, I think there were enough people all throughout sports who really didn't recognize it or weren't willing to go there. I think Adam Silver recognized it because I remember talking to him. I remember being at the finals in 2013, talking to him about an afternoon show and him saying, it's in our contract. This next deal we're negotiating, we're supposed to have an afternoon show.

And I'm like, really? I never heard that. They're going to guarantee that. He's like, yeah, we made that part of the deal. And I think people who love the NBA saw it. We saw what was happening on Twitter. We saw what was happening with the marketability of the guys. And it just took, I think, a while for ESPN to see it. And probably the tipping point, I forget what, oh, 2014, when LeBron went back to Cleveland. That was the first time I really remember. We went from the finals to the draft to free agency to LeBron. And all of a sudden, it was like mid-July and we were getting at Grantland, getting content on this stuff every day. And we could see it in the traffic. It was,

there was just a noticeable shift. And I think at that point, they probably all realized like, this is stupid. We should, there's more content to be out here. But now I think I would argue for what they do, it's as important as a 12-month-a-year sport as the NFL. I mean, the NFL doesn't have the version of what they had on June 30th with the jump, where they're on at midnight with the free agent signings. There's no version of the NFL for that. The NFL is a draft.

It's much more of a machine. It's, I don't know, six, seven, eight weeks of content they can get out of it. NBA draft is too close to the season. It's really hard to build that up. And somehow the NFL, the NBA has managed to avoid the political toxic kind of qualities. I mean, you're not talking about whether people are kneeling on courtside and whether owners like Jerry Jones are too close to the White House or anything like that. Don't they pay less for the NBA than they do for the NFL?

Yes. Yeah. And for the NFL, they're getting these 17 games, half of which are bad. They don't get any playoff games except for occasionally they would have the one. Well, they can get a wild card, but it's not guaranteed. Yeah, they don't even know if they gave that away. And basically the all-you-can-eat buffet of the footage. But my question,

and you would know this better than me, personally, I would get rid of all the football games. Give them to somebody else. They need the footage. They have to have the highlights. I have first-hand experience with how tough it is to talk about football if you don't have highlights. But couldn't they just cut a deal with the NFL

and just have the highlights? Why wouldn't they do that? I wrote a column for Hollywood Reporter in, I guess, January. Yeah. Or somewhere saying, you know, I think they should look. They were at that time, they were getting the fourth worst schedule. And, you know, you're looking at $2 billion north for the cost. It just wasn't worth it.

It just wasn't worth it. And I think that had Skipper stayed at ESPN, I mean, Iger would have eventually overruled him, but I don't believe there was one part of John Skipper that was going to try and keep the NFL. Well, think about it from a salary cap standpoint. If ESPN was almost like an NBA team, the money that you're putting toward football,

you had to lose all these other events. And I really feel, I feel like sports program, this is why I want to go back to that ranking the one, two, and three, the three properties, Fox, Turner, and ESPN. I really feel like we've moved into this era of impact sports program. So like you have the British Open. You have the British Open for four days. And for four days, you're really relevant and you matter and you can flood your network with it. And especially now that these networks

have different cable channels, they can put different events on and you just get your money's worth out of it. Like whatever Fox pays for the baseball playoffs, that's where the real meat is. For five weeks, they can put it on FS1. They can put it on FS2, wherever the hell they want to put it.

Fox, they can promote their other shows from it. They are really getting their money's worth out of it. And I look at the assets ESPN has. They have baseball. It's eating up innings, great. But they don't actually have the part of baseball that really matters at this point because baseball has turned into a five-week-a-year sport

for casual fans. And it's almost like they just have the wrong part of that deal. I think that was Skipper's biggest mistake of his entire tenure, and I still feel that way. But that baseball deal? Yeah. I don't care about the eating up innings thing.

I just don't think it matters. I think it's less and less relevant. They had so much money at the time. They had so much money at the time and they needed the tonnage and they wanted to be in the sport. You're getting a sport where you don't

even have a daily show about the sport and you're the rights holder in the sport. But you're getting a sport where you don't even have a daily show about the sport and you're the rights holder for the sport. Well, that's a whole other. It's become a localized sport. I think the misread was that baseball is moving in this direction where people care about their team and that's it. And I know with my dad who loves the Red Sox, he watches Nesson before the game and he watches Nesson after the game.

He's not going to baseball tonight to see what happened in the other games. And I don't either. So I think that's one of the things that's really shifted over the last five years. But going back to the Fox-Turner thing, like, you know, Turner has March Madness. They have the same basketball package

that ESPN has basically except for the finals. They have one conference every round and all that stuff. They have Champions League now. They have one other thing that I'm blanking on. But they're basically able to just kind of float in and

own these little weeks or months and then they're out. And for the amount of money they're spending compared to what ESPN's spending, I understand the tonnage issue and all that stuff. They spent a pretty big dollar as well on the NBA. Oh, yeah. And that was a deep dive for them.

Oh, college football. Don't they? No, not college. Fox has college football. What's the other thing Turner has? Is it a golf thing? They have one of the golfs? No.

I'm blanking. Sorry. Fox has some of the golf and has half of the Big Ten. Fox has U.S. Open, college basketball, college football, baseball and baseball playoffs, and then probably the best

football of all the footballs for the NFL. Because they have the NFC. They get everything through the NFC championship game. They get the rotating Super Bowl, which ESPN somehow didn't get. I don't know. It's a lot of assets. My point is, I'm not sure ESPN's the worldwide leader the way they used to be. You agree with that?

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And by the way, if you're just going to go on a property basis, they never were. Right. I mean, they really never were. They didn't have football until they had half of the schedule in 87, and that was kind of a low rent, if you want to say, schedule. And then they got the full schedule, but even when they did that big deal for Monday night, they got the old Sunday night cable schedule.

They didn't get the Monday night broadcast schedule. You know, NBC got that. So, you know, I don't think there's ever been a time where you would look at, I guess, I mean, maybe in terms of college football, because they've spent over $20 billion and have the championships, and they, I mean, you know, with the SEC and the ACC and everything, I mean, they're in very good shape with college football. But just in terms of spreading it out,

they don't have the NCAA college basketball tournament. And, I mean, look, they've got a lot of tennis, but that's a grain of sand on a big beach. I don't think they've ever done, I don't think they've ever dominated and been the worldwide leader in terms of acquisitions. The BCS thing was, I think, a real masterstroke for them. I think that's worked. I think that's been a great thing for them.

And that goes back to the owning the narrative thing. I don't know how much they paid for it, but for those two weeks, you know, they're in the game. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And the great thing is,

and you'll see it being, I don't know, it could be ABC goes for football. Who knows? Because the NFL is always still a love broadcast. And one of the things you know is no matter what, you might have some hit show now, but three years from now, four years from now,

may not be working, but the championship game will be. Fox, this merger that happened, Peter Rice comes in who is really well-respected and has run TV and movies. And over these last few years, we've never been able to figure out who the Agger successor was. And we've never been able to even talk ourselves into, oh, that's probably who it's going to be, that one. This feels like the first one where everybody's going, yeah, that's going to be the guy who replaces Agger.

What are you hearing on that well I think there are a lot of people who believe that Kevin mayor given his now operational duties at ESPN is at least part of the list has to be part of the conversation whether or not that ultimately happens remains to be seen of course but I do think look he's got people have a tendency to think old old world and you know Jimmy Patara is remains to be seen, of course. But I do think, look, he's got, people have a tendency to think old world and Jimmy Vitara is president of ESPN, but Kevin made those deals for ESPN+. They would have never happened without Kevin's enthusiasm and basically strategic drive for those.

He's got technology. He's got ad sales. He's got a big foot in the door. And I think that ESPN is one of those things, if you look at the entire Disney landscape, ESPN is one of those important things that they've got to get right. They've got to take to another level. And if he were to really engineer a terrific success story at ESPN, I think that he could certainly have a legitimate claim to it. All right, we're betting lunch on this. I have Peter Rice.

Oh, I'm not saying, I'm not listening. I mean, if you were going to do odds or whatever, I mean, Peter's far ahead. I'm just saying, though, that in terms of other people that are part of the conversation. So Peter Rice is like the Warriors? Kevin Mayer is the Celtics? Not as much talent, but might have a chance. Don't count him out. I wouldn't count him out. Let's put it that way. Who is more powerful at ESPN, Kevin Mayer or Jimmy Patara? Well, I mean, it's kind of a crazy question,

but in some ways I'd have to say Kevin. No offense against Jimmy, of course, but Jimmy has a lot of responsibilities and he's got a big job. But I think that just in terms of dollars and the operational duties and what you saw with the UFC, I think that's a lot. That's a lot. And again, Jimmy has a lot of control, but I think Kevin's in some ways got... He has his thing on the levers to have more ability to influence the future of ESPN than Jimmy does.

We've never seen a situation before where somebody took over ESPN, but had somebody directly over him who had legitimate oversight over direct decisions about ESPN like this. I mean, obviously Skipper had to run stuff by Agger and Michael Eisner and all that stuff. But we've never seen, I don't think we've seen a situation quite like this. I mean, obviously Skipper had to run stuff by Agger and Michael Eisner and all that stuff, but we've never seen, I don't think we've seen a situation quite like this. They also took, ESPN was, I think, what, 8,000 people at one point? They took all the sales, all the tech people and moved them under a Disney umbrella. So he has way less reports than Skipper did. What does he have, like 5,000? Something like that? Yeah, it's in the 5,000 neighborhood. But I don't think anybody would say technically Jimmy is, I mean, Kevin is over Jimmy.

I mean, we're getting into the weeds here. But the point is, there's a lot more. It's interesting. But there's a lot more operational influence now, more than ever before in Burbank than there ever has been. It's interesting, the Disney stock, which has always been in the hundreds, it's been somewhere between like 100 and 109 for, I would say the last year, pretty consistently. And lately it's gone up to like 116, 117.

I think people are starting to wonder, could Disney really put together a real Netflix competitor here? They did a thing about it last week and the OTT app. I'm pro-Disney in the sense that I just think they belatedly got their shit together. All the stuff they're doing now is really stuff they could have started doing in 2013 and 14 and 15, especially with ESPN when they had all these assets to do a much better version of the Watch ESPN app. Now they've figured out they've done it. So they maybe lost three years, but the totality of all the assets they have now, it's kind of staggering, especially when you add in the Fox library and all their TV shows.

And I don't know, I just think they're in a much better position than they were a year ago. Does that seem to be the consensus or am I too optimistic? No, I think that's true. And I think also, look, I think that Wall Street is now understanding their strategy.

And there were a couple of years there where it's one of the reasons why we didn't hear from Skipper for like over a year because it became more about investor relations than anything else. And there was sometimes in the year before that some disparities between what Bob Iger was saying and what John Skipper was saying. And that proved to be quite deleterious to, you know, in the marketplace. And they didn't. So as the marketplace, and they didn't. So as a result, the street didn't understand it.

I think Bob Iger has been crystal clear about what he wants to do and what he's got a laser focus on, including these OTT operations. And as a result, I think people are starting to say, I get it. I get it. This is what they're doing, and they continue to have pretty good success in the film division. And so I think it's an easier time for them to tell their story. And then Bataro comes in. It seems like at least two of his first two tasks were repair this NFL thing, ASAP.

Well, you know when you take the SATs and you get 200 points for signing your name? Yeah. I mean, I think he had a big gush of wind at his back only because Skipper was already gone. So the NFL hated Skipper so much it's like, okay, we don't know. Jimmy knew them before with

his work at Yahoo and earlier at Disney, but I think that he had a lot of wind at his back in terms of preparing things with Park Avenue just because he wasn't John Skipper. Do you think that was the number one task that he had when he took over? I guess so. But I think more importantly, it's to understand the new economics of ESPN and how that place is going to be organized and what you're going to do.

I mean, there has to be a clear strategy, not only just about content, but about personnel. Are there going to be more layoffs? How are people going to be used? What are the priorities? And then, of course, establishing the priorities in advance of all these acquisition rights that are going to be up starting in about a year and a half. What do you think the second, the second biggest like micro task he was given beyond the NFL was like, do you think they, do they still have the same?

The biggest task, the biggest task job, number one was make sure that Bristol is always in line with Burbank. That was his job number one because it was fractured under Skipper, and as I was alluding to before, it caused problems at Wall Street. It caused problems in numerous ways. And so I think Jimmy is probably going to be more tied to Bob Iger and what Burbank is doing than any president in ESPN history since 1996 and the takeover. And it seems like the number two thing was beyond the NFL,

just like micro and what you just mentioned, maybe the number three thing was we do not want people to think ESPN leans one way or the other politically. And I think that, I think that has been a sore spot and you have not seen nearly as much people, people wandering off the reservation, shall we say in these last six months? Yeah. I mean, you gotta, you know, you just get Norby. He's like the cleaner and left on the key to, you know, you just get Norby. He's like the cleaner in La Femme Laquita. You know, he's going to just come and take care of everything.

So he's made compared to little thing. He's got his bucket. He's got his mop or he's like Harvey Keitel in Pulp Fiction just shows up at the door and says, okay, this is what we're going to do. Okay. Jamel and Michael, you go over there. You stand there. I mean, he's got, you know, just let him have it.

I think there's been a weird SportsCenter renaissance this year. I'm not saying it's taking off or whatever, but the familiarity of it, it does seem like they've gone from, oh, my God, SportsCenter's dying. It's got to turn into something else. We have to take all these dramatic swings to them now reverting the other way and be like, you know, it's all right, SportsCenter.

Let's just play the hits. Let's show some highlights. Not make it too complicated. And you can make a case. Maybe they never should have tickered with SportsCenter in the first place. And the ratings were just naturally going to atrophy year after year. And you can't stop it. And what can you do?

Well, yeah. And also you don't have to make DC to the huge studio and the huge set, the star it's about the people. Yeah. You know, I don't remember if we've talked about this on the pod before, but the first year I was doing countdown, the first couple of months we were on this, just as normal set in the LA live building, nothing special.

And they were all excited about this new set we were building. And then we launched it on Christmas day and they spent like a million bucks on it. They were really fired up about it. It's great. We're going to be able to do this, do that. And we did the show and they were like, make a big deal about the set. When we started out, we had to like talk about, oh, we're new digs. Guess what?

Nobody cared. Now nobody's watching that show. We're like, I'm on the fence. I was going to watch that show, but the set's not nice enough. You know, ultimately it's just people talking at a set. You don't need to go crazy. And it does feel like they went a little bit bonkers there with how much money they're spending in the sets.

Now it's like, you know what? There's two people. They have good chemistry. They're going to show some highlights. Yeah, I mean, there were technological things that they got at DC too, but they didn't have to spend $130 million and totally transform SportsCenter

to accomplish all that. You know, I think that that was, I think it was a big mistake. But look, I think they've rebounded quite nicely on that. And you're starting to, I think the SportsCenter anchors themselves seem that they're enjoying it more now. A couple years ago, I mean, sometimes you would come up on them at 11 o'clock or, God knows, at 6 o'clock or something. It looked like they were ready for root canal. Yeah.

And I think it's just something that's just a little lighter now. It's a little, it's more fun. And I think people are engaging more as a result. Well, I also think when you have layoffs and people's jobs are in danger and things like that, you had some people who felt like I've outgrown sports center.

It's, it's, I've graduated from this. What's next for me? And now we're in an era. It's like, you know, it's good being on SportsCenter, being on TV and being good at this

because this is an important show for us. And there definitely seems to have been a mindset shift. Really? I also feel like two or three years ago, there were people who thought that they had to somehow, if they found something new, that they were going to replace something.

So they were going to kick something out. And it turns out that we're, I'm guilty of this too, we just create more space. So now it's like, okay, we're checking out this on Instagram and we're checking out, we're looking at House of Highlights and we're looking at this and we're looking at this and we're looking at sports. It's like, we're just kind of increasing our bandwidth for stuff that we like as opposed to feeling like it's binary, like, oh, well, if I'm going to be on here, then I guess I don't have time for that

or I'm not going to be interested in that. Instead, we do more. What's your prediction for the biggest risk ESPN takes in 2019? In 2018? No, 19, next year, this coming year. What's the biggest gamble they make? What's the biggest risk, 19 next year. This coming year. What's the biggest, what's the biggest gamble they make? What's the biggest risk they take next year?

I would say for this year, it would be the UFC and the amount of money they spent to try to get the OTT app going. Oh, without a doubt. I mean, there's nothing close this year. That's a,

that's a lot of money they spent on the UFC, but I think for next year, it's going to be what they, what they decide to do in terms of, I mean, look, there's a big question. Are they going to, MLB rights are going to be up. You know, obviously they're going to go and do the NFL, but are they going to do, are they going to do ABC and ESPN?

I think their biggest risk is the package that they put together. The biggest gamble is going to be the package they put together for those 24 months. Do you think there's a, is there a world where they just have Sunday night baseball and that's it? And they just make Sunday a baseball day and throw away the rest of the week? Well, you're assuming that they can pull that off. I'm just asking if you're baseball, that might make sense. Be like, all right, pay a little more for Sunday baseball, and we'll sell the rest of the rights elsewhere.

Right, but that I'm about to say, though, that's assuming that they can sell the rest of the rights elsewhere. Because if I'm Fox, somebody else, and I'm buying baseball, I'm going to want Sunday night. Right. You know? I mean, otherwise, it's just not that great. I'm buying baseball. I'm going to want Sunday night. Right. You know, I mean,

otherwise it's just not that great. I would not be buying baseball if I was any of these leagues, I would, I would be trying to buy all the RSNs and combine them into some sort of monster business, which you wouldn't even be able to do because all the teams own half of them. Now they have to sell them. My prediction is I don't have one.

It's too early. I need to read the two of these more. I don't want to go on the record with anything. Hey, quickly, the Starbucks double shot starts with bold Starbucks coffee. It's blended for milk with a smooth, creamy, delicious flavor. It's enhanced with ginseng, guarana, and B vitamins. Double shot. Available in six delicious flavors. Mocha, vanilla, hazelnut, white chocolate, and B vitamins double shot. Available in six delicious flavors.

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and you are ready to roll. Back to Jim Miller. Let's talk about origins with Nick Saban. How long did you spend on this? You know, I always spent a lot. You know, probably three or four months. Did you get a sense for why

or did you cover this? Does he have regrets about how his NFL stint went? Because I remember when he came into the AFC East, obviously as a massive Pats fan, I was worried because he seemed to be one of the few coaches Belichick really respected.

The Miami thing didn't work out for a couple bad luck reasons. And then maybe, you know, it was his first game. If he had gotten his way and he proved to be right, I'm not trying to defend him. But, I mean, look, he wanted Drew Brees and his doctor cleared Drew Brees and they couldn't get cleared. If, you know, it is worth talking for a moment, if Nick Saban had had Drew Brees in Miami, what would have happened? Well, that's what I was saying with the bad luck thing. Because I think it's funny, but I've written this.

If Drew Brees goes to Miami, I don't think Alabama happens. I think Saban stays. I think the entire landscape of football for the next six, seven years is different in so many different ways, including the Saints don't win a title. The Patriots certainly don't have the AFC East dynasty they have. There's the potential for a real Belichick-Saban rivalry. Belichick's really never had a coach rival, and maybe that would have been it. Pat's offense games would have been massive.

It really is a great NFL what-if. It's one of my favorites. I bring it up in the pod because I think it's so important. Like you just outlined, it has so many different repercussions, and it really would have been fun. Look, those two years when the Jets were pretty good under Rex, that was, you know, there was a lot of drama with the Ryan Belichick thing. And can you imagine, I mean, particularly given the fact that Belichick had hired Saban,

their history together, I think that would have been really, really cool. So, yes, I mean, I have been really, really cool. So yes, I mean, I talked with Saban about it. Is it because it's because they're 18 year olds and 19 year olds and you can control them more? Um, I think if he had the right, if he had had breeze, I think he would have, it would have been a different story down there in Miami. And I completely agree. You wouldn't have had the run with Alabama that you had. Well, and you wouldn't have had maybe the same Patriots run. And also, like, sneaky fact about Belichick and Saban, Saban sneaks guys to Belichick every year.

It's always like, usually not in the first round, but over and over again, the Pats have ended up with these Alabama guys on their team. And, yeah, it's a great way to have. I'm fascinated by their relationship. I always felt like at some point, I'm sure they'll do something, they'll do some sort of infomercially documentary or something where they kind of, a little like what Belichick did with Parcells, but I'm sure there's going to be some moment where they join forces for something because they've been the two

most influential coaches of this century. And it's funny that they're friends, you know, and that, and that Saban owns, owes real gratitude to Belichick. What was the big, Even though he was miserable in Cleveland. Oh my God. When he was working there. It seems like everybody was miserable there. Just miserable.

What was the biggest surprise you, you unearthed as you were reporting and working on this whole thing? For you personally? Well, I mean, Lane Kiffin is the gift that keeps giving. And his interview was just fascinating because, I mean, look, it's like, you got this guy who really wants to be a good guy and say the right things. And then it's just like every statement, every sentence is so multidimensional. And, you know, I kept on pushing him to the point where, okay, yeah, we would have won if I was offensive coordinator. And he blew it.

And, yes, I was right. We should have slowed down with practices for the playoff. And he finally left three years later, and that's what won the championship. I mean, it's like he starts off in the nicest way, and then just with a little digging, and it's just, I find it to be fascinating. And their whole relationship, you know, Kiffin told me that when he was being considered for the Alabama job,

like the SEC just, you know, was really upset, of course, if you remember, particularly given what had gone on at Tennessee. And when people started saying, oh, my gosh, Saban, you can't bring this guy back. We don't want him here. We don't want him here. You know, he said to friends, he goes, well, I got the job. And they go, what are you talking about? Look at all the protests.

He goes, yeah, well, Saban's going to make sure that he proves that nobody can influence him and that he'll do whatever he wants. And so now that they're telling him no, he's going to definitely say yes. And he got the job. And it's just so interesting. And then he goes into this big thing where he's comparing his favorite mentor, Pete Carroll, to Saban and the programs, how they're different. And he's trying. He's saying, I'm not saying one is better than the other, but, you know, there's one where it's, you know, you want to go to work as opposed to you have to go to work.

And there's one that, and he starts to go through it. And it's just, I mean, it's pretty interesting. And I also interviewed Joe Girardi, who, you know, he's a big Saban fan. And he had Saban come up and speak to the Yankees and talked about that a lot. And it turns out, I don't know, Saban was from West Virginia, but he was a big Yankee fan growing up, which I, you know, hadn't really known. Another reason not to like him. That's pretty cool. What's your next big project?

I got Saturday Night Live coming out in September and then Sex and the City in October Saturday Night Live Origins? Origins of the new season I've been going, hanging out and talking with everybody

what? how do you not tell me this? what do you mean? It's out there. It's out there, yeah. What do you mean, out there? What do I have, Jim Miller Google alerts? I don't know things unless you tell me. Oh, okay. Hey, Bill, I'm doing, on September 12th, I'm doing this

Origins of Season 44 for SNL. Amazing. It's all about how this season is going to be, you know, how they're getting ready for this season and Trump or no Trump and new cast members and what's the strategy going in. Do you have any gossip for us? Are there new cast members or you can't reveal yet?

No, it's still early. Still early. I am hoping and praying no Alec Baldwin this year. That'd be my number one draft pick. My top two draft picks are no more Alec Baldwin. Use the cast. It's your best chance to actually break a cast member and

help their career. And then number two, Chris Redd was the breakout star year one and was somehow buried at the same time. Like, ride Chris Redd. Chris Redd's good. He's funny. He has a chance to be something. What the fuck? He was there last year. They barely used him.

Yeah. Chris Redd is awesome. Chris Redd is the key to whatever this upcoming season is. They have to figure out how to use him correctly. I think. Well, but Keenan and Kate are going to be back. Kate's back.

Kenan, yeah. No, Kate McKinnon's back. Yeah. No, that's a mistake. It's time to go. Go be a big star. What is this? I forget Kristen came back after Bridesmaids.

Yeah, I remember. Mistake. When it's time to go, it's time to go. It's like going to the NBA when you're in college. It's like sometimes it's time to go. And then are you doing an ESPN book or you're not? Yeah, there's something on the computer, yeah. Something on the computer.

Something on the computer. Okay the computer okay yeah when did the last one come out oh is the last one came out 2011 because i'll never forget john walsh reading into my in uh in my office reading enforcing you would apologize and cackling and then getting angry at me and then reading more and cackling and then getting upset at people who I think were dead. And he somehow read the entire book in five hours and it was two inches from his face and he plowed through it and was taking notes and was just a lunatic. It was hilarious. I wish I had put hidden cameras in there. It would have been the best five hours on YouTube. Him just losing his mind. I think then the phone conversation after he read it with me was five hours. Well, then he called me and he's like, okay,

we're going to have to handle some of the stuff you said right away. And that was it. I had to call people and email people for the next few days. Anyway, well, I'm looking forward to all this stuff. The Saturday Live thing, wow. I guess you're going to have to come back on before that comes on. I want to get some of the details. Yeah, no, I'm really looking.

It's been fun already, and it's been great. Origins. Nick Saban, is that the title? Saban? It's Origins of a Champion, Nick Saban, and Alabama's Crimson Dive. All right, check that out. Available wherever you get your podcasts. Jiman, and Alabama's Crimson Dive. All right. Check that out. Available wherever you get your podcasts.

Jim Miller, thank you. Thanks for having me. All right. Thanks to ZipRecruiter. Don't forget to go to ziprecruiter.com slash BS. Thanks to Casper, a sleep brand that continues to revolutionize its line of products to create an exceptionally comfortable experience for sleep one night at a time delivered to your door in a small, how do they do that, size box. Free shipping returns in the U.S. and Canada. Casper's 100-night risk-free sleep on it trial.

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That's it for this week. Go Red Sox. Keep winning. Make me proud, Red Sox. Keep doing your thing. And we'll be back next week on the BS Podcast. Until then.