The Bill Simmons Podcast - NFL Draft Questions, a Celtics Choke, Butler’s Crazy Career and a Nut Punch Draft With Ben Solak, Danny Kelly, Joe House and Dave Jacoby

Episode Date: April 26, 2023

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons recaps the Celtics’ Game 5 loss to the Hawks (0:53), before he is joined by Ben Solak and Danny Kelly of ‘The Ringer NFL Draft Show’ to discuss the Aaron Rodgers trade, what the Texans will do with their two first-round picks, QB bust potential, trade-back teams, top prospects, and more (5:54). Then Bill talks with David Jacoby and Joe House about Jimmy Butler’s historic performance vs. the Bucks in Game 4, Lakers-Grizzlies, Round 2 anticipation, the surging Knicks, and more (1:04:01). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Ben Solak, Danny Kelly, Joe House and Dave Jacoby Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, NFL Draft, NBA Playoffs, a little Celtics at the top because I'm mad. It's all next. It's the Bill Simmons Podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sportsbook is the best place to bet it all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year.

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by the Ringer Podcast Network. Put up a new Rewatchables on Monday night. Kyle Brandt and I broke down the Jean-Claude Van Damme semi-classic Sudden Death. The only movie that ever combined the diehard premise

with Game 7 and the Stanley cup finals. It's absolutely ridiculous. No better person to break this down with than Kyle. Uh, you can check that out on this podcast coming up, Benjamin Solak and Danny Kelly. And I did burning questions for the NFL draft on Thursday. It's a weird draft that a lot of questions. And then Dave Jacoby and Joe house came on. We talked about Jimmy Butler. We talked about what I saw from LeBron James. When I went to Laker game on Tuesday night, tucked Nick's calves. We talked about Jimmy Butler. We talked about what I saw from LeBron James when I went to the Laker game on Tuesday night. Talked to Nick's Cavs.

We had a nut punch draft. Great times all around. I was in such a good mood. And then the Celtics screwed it up. They blew a game that they should win 99 times out of 100 to a Hawks team that didn't even have DeJounte Murray. They let Trae Young get going late.

I mean, he was shooting every time. It wasn't hard to figure out who was getting the ball. He took 33 shots, 38 points, 33 shots. This game was a little thumbnail. What's the right word? A little window into what I've been complaining about all year with the Celtics team. It's the fourth quarter stuff.

It's the lineups. It's the sloppiness. It's the Derek White versus Marcus Smart thing, which I'll get into in a second. It's the little adjustments that aren't being made. Like for instance, yesterday, the Hawks went a little smaller. The Celtics responded. They had two bigs out there late. They were kind of

going back and forth between smart and white for reasons that remain unclear. I'm going to talk about that in a second. Always having one or two non-shooters out there when they just should have gone small and attacked Trae Young. And they have the lineup for it. Malcolm Brogdon, Derek White, Jason Tatum, Jalen Brown, and a big, let's say Al Horford. And just make Trae Young play defense every play. Just attack him. It's a gift. Trae Young can't guard anybody. Just attack him. No. They played Marcus Smart more than Derek White down the stretch. And you can look at the play by play. At one point, I think Smart came in with like four minutes left. Trae Young three, Smart third away, Trae Young three.

That's not even the point. Derek White's the third best guy in the team. You can look at it from an eye test standpoint. You can look at it from any advanced metric. You can look at it from plus minus,

including today, where I think he was like plus nine or plus 10 and Marcus was minus 10. It's not a diss on Marcus Smart. It's okay. He's not one of the best six guys on this year's team. He's not healthy. He's got a lot of miles on him. Next year, he might be better.

But this year, he cannot guard somebody like Trey Young the way he used to. Derek White is one of the best guys in the league guarding somebody like that. And this conundrum of Joe Maz over and over again, going with Marcus Smart because it's a past performance thing. That's our guy. I don't want to upset the locker room. I don't want to lose Smart. It's all about stuff that's not about basketball. This team's trying to win a title.

With 13 wins left to win the title, you got to play your best guys. And right now, for whatever reason, and I could spend an hour breaking that down or 10 seconds and I'll just spend 10 seconds. Derek White is better than Marcus Smart. And you know what else? Malcolm Brogdon might be better than Marcus Smart. They need to come to grips with this. Marcus Smart, valuable playoff guy. Love the guy to death. He's been on the team for nine years. I trust him as a playoff guy. I do not trust him as somebody who should be out there over Derek White in key

playoff games. It's ridiculous. It's stupid. I don't understand it. I don't understand how you play Rob and Al Horford together, the two bigs when the Hawks are going small. I don't understand how you don't call timeouts when the momentum is clearly shifting. And it just over and over again is the same thing with this team. We have a coach that is learning on the job. He's learning on the job. And unfortunately, the job right now is to win the title because the seas have parted. We're going to talk about the NBA later with Jacobian House. Milwaukee's down 3-1. The Celtics have a chance to have home court all the way through the playoffs, all the way through the finals, potentially, because they have better record than anybody in the West. Only they can screw this up.

And I didn't talk about Tatum, had another crap game. You look at his shot chart, it's either threes or drives to the basket, nothing in between. He's tossed away the mid-range game for whatever reason. I've not loved the way he's played in the playoffs, but I feel like he's a yo-yo.

He goes up and down. It is what it is. I still think this team, from a talent standpoint, is in kind of the driver's seat now for the title with the way Milwaukee is playing. And I just think they're getting

in their own way. And it's a bummer. And now they have to go to Atlanta for game six. They had a chance to start the Philly series on Saturday. Embiid has a sprained knee. They had a chance to start

the Philly series with Embiid 50-50 to play game one. Now they just bought Embiid two extra days because they effed around in this stupid game five and gave the Hawks life. Now Trey Young thinks it's 2021 again. He's just going to shoot 35 times a game. Some of them will go in and he can strut around. And they never should have gotten to this point. They're way better than the Hawks. What are you doing Celtics? Ah, that's my rant. All right. Let's, uh, let's bring in the, uh, mid-afternoon, Tuesday. What a treat. Ben Solak is here. So used to seeing you on Zoom.

Yep. Just in a square. And the one, the only Danny Kelly also here. You guys are doing a whole bunch of draft stuff for us for the ringer this week. So, of course, I grabbed you. We're in our little fancy studio. We've decorated it with a bunch of weird ringer props.

I know everything that's up there for sure. It's great, right? Not a single reference lost on me. Do you recognize Michael Jordan at least? Oh, yeah. Well, I couldn't see him past DK, but that one I've got. I like Prince. Prince right there.

I'm going to throw a bunch of burning draft questions at you because the draft is Thursday, and there might not be NBA playoff games on Thursday night because all the series tonight. We'll know after people hear this, but there's a chance it's just draft, which would be amazing. My dad has already convinced multiple guys

who are definitely going in the top 12 are going to fall to the Pats, which is hilarious. Rodgers, though, let's go there. I was appalled by this trade for the Jets and I was with Sean Fennessey last night and he's like trying to sell me on. He's like, look, we have this window. We might have seven pro bowlers, you know, down the road and we need legitimacy and we needed a guy and you just got to give up what you got to give up to get it. And the counter is they had no other offers. He was a sunk cost. He had nowhere else to go and he was going to destroy their team. Why did they have to give up actual assets? They get, they moved back from 13 to 15, gave up a conditional first and they gave up a second in this year's

draft. Why not just a second and be done with it? I think they tried. And I think that Brian Guttenkamp, the GM of the Packers, said, yeah, he won the MVP in two of the last three years. So you can call us back when you're serious. And there was a staring contest there. There was the Jets saying, no, we've got leverage. Rodgers won't go anywhere else but here. And the Packers saying, no, we've got leverage because you might have to start Zach Wilson next year if you can't figure this out. Right. The Lamar situation was the trap door for the Jets. All they needed to do was go fly down and take a meeting. All they needed to do was present like they had another franchise quarterback option besides Rodgers. They

were so fast to say, nope, we're not interested in Lamar. We're good. We know our plan. And to me, that gave the Packers a good amount of momentum, a good amount of leverage such that they were able to get what's a square price for an MVP quarterback. Get a first round pick. What'd you think? I just think they blinked. Like they needed to get this. Blinked? I think they had a seizure.

Right, right. I mean, I just think they wanted to get it done before the draft, you know, because they had to go through this whole plan to do what they're going to do in the draft. They wanted to have the quarterback set. And so waiting until after the draft, it seems like it would just like throw everything in upheaval for them. And so, and after the draft, it seems like it would just like throw everything in upheaval for them. And so, and maybe it came down from a pie too,

like to just get this thing done. Well, that's what it sounds like. It sounds like the owner's like, I'm old, go get him. I might be dead soon. I don't have time to wait. There was that reporting that Woody,

the owner for the Jets, was ready to send a first round pick for Rodgers. And then Rodgers hopped on McAfee and was like, I was 85% retired. And he was like, I was 85% retired.

And he was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, let's not commit this much draft capital. But they went in for a penny and for a pound. Like, in March, they committed with Alan Lazard and with the discourse

with the Jets, the Packers, excuse me, they committed to this idea of Rodgers as a Jet. And once their pot committed like that, Budokan squeezed on him. And I think that that's good work

by the Packers front office. It reminded me of Succession when Logan Roy, like season three, was like, I just got to get this deal done. And he's just screaming at people and calling everybody a fuck face

and telling them to fuck off. They just kind of, I just don't get it. I would have handled this, like I would love to play poker with the Jets. Yes. Be like,

all right, you guys in? I'm totally in. I have two aces. I'm in handled this. I would love to play poker with the Jets. Be like, alright, you guys in? I'm totally in. I have two aces. I'm in. Okay, I'm out. I just thought they should have pretended they liked Lamar. This isn't hard. Just pretend you like Lamar Jackson. Pretend you're going to be like, you know what? I'm going to wait until after the draft. After the draft, maybe we'll make a play at Lamar with our next

two first-round picks. And then the Packers are like, oh shit, what if they do that? Or other players like Trey Lance, who's still out there potentially as a trade partner or whatever. Don't let Mike White leave. It's Mike White. But still, you're not. You're showing the Packers. The only quarterback we have is Zach Wilson, who everybody here doesn't like.

All the teammates tweeting immediately after this went through is like, oh, God, that is bad. It's just, there was very little. There was a Tom Brady play. They could have been like, Tom, we're going to pay you a million dollars. Just pretend for 12 hours there might be some mutual interest in the two of us. We'll wire you the money. We'll be good to go. Well, they got him.

It's just funny. I just feel like they gave up an extra asset for no reason. Moving back from 13 to 15, who cares? The second round pick, that makes sense. But then the other one, 65% of the plays becomes a first round pick. Which is as light of a condition as you'll find in a trade. Everybody kind of expected it's got to be tied to performance,

pro bowl, playoff performance, or in the ideal world for the Jets, tie it to 2024 playing time. Ensure that Rodgers plays for another season. To tie it to 2023 playing time at such a low numbergers plays for another season to tie it to 2023 playing time at such a low number. Huge win for the Packers.

I don't think it's going to be an emotional farewell from Green Bay for Aaron. You don't think? Like when he goes back to Lambeau, do they play him

the I Will Remember You video or whatever? Like one of those? What's the one they play with the what's the one they always play when everybody comes back?

Like, oh, I don't even know I'm coming oh I'm coming home that one yeah yeah like do they even play a video on the screen for him no

do the Packer fans like him is he gonna get booed oh 100% you gotta boo him you can't not boo him oh man him wearing 8 is gonna be weird too

I'm not about that like oh it's his college number yeah he can't wear 12 because of Namath like I guess Namath gave him his blessing, but he still wants to wear 8, so that's going to be weird. My main question is just, do the Packers draft the first-round receiver

in the year that Rodgers leaves? Well, there's a couple of them right in that area too. Kick him out the door and just bye-bye. I would love it. There was some indication that they moved up. The Packers moved up in this because they want to get a receiver. They want JSN, Jackson Smith, and Jigba. And so this like helps them get it, which is even juicier.

As you know, I only root for the content if it's not one of my teams. And this was much better content for us. Aaron Rodgers in New York on the Jets. Incredible content. Jordan Love, is he good or not? The Ewing Theory potential of the Packers, which even though they won a title with Rodgers, it's been, I don't know, the past 10 years, not? The Ewing Theory potential of the Packers, which even though they won a title with Rodgers, it's been, I don't know, the past 10 years, there is some Ewing Theory potential. And they're in a bad division.

It would be hilarious if they went like 11-6 and won the NFC North. So many things, I can't wait. So I'm glad it happened. I just thought it was weird. Okay. Burning questions for the draft. So this is a retroactive one,

but after, you know, when this trade happened, like the Ringer draft guide, I hadn't really dove into it yet. I hadn't watched the draft. So this is a retroactive one, but after, you know, when this trade happened, like the Ringer draft guide, I hadn't really dove into it yet. I hadn't watched the shows. I hadn't listened to a bunch of podcasts, including the one you're on, the Ringer draft show.

Ringer NFL draft show. Yeah, no, we just do all the drafts out there. We're just going to transition to NBA. Ringer NFL. Just fire off every take. I had an old guy moment. May 1st.

So they, Carolina trades up and they give up a lot. And they give up DJ more in the trade too, but they also give up a bunch of picks. And you do that, and you're like, I better. I know what I'm getting at one. And it seems like they're taking Bryce Young,

even though there was a little Reddit scary yesterday. But Bryce Young is even odds, which, did you bet that? Yeah, I got Bryce Young when Stroud was still the heavy favorite. When Stroud was, when they first made the trade, all the reporting on Stroud was like, and the Panthers think it's CJ Stroud. And the markets went nuts. They were like, CJ, CJ, CJ.

And it's like, all right, it very much sounds like they're still going to do homework on this. Yeah. And Dave Tepper, the owner, had been pretty clear in the season that he had liked Will Levis. That was like a commonly known rumor in like November, December. So like, all right, clearly the pretty clear in the season that he had liked Will Levis. That was a commonly known rumor in November, December. So, like, all right, clearly the ownership isn't fully involved yet. CJ Stroud seems like it's more of a coaching staff thing.

Let's just let this play out. And then pretty quickly after the Panthers met Bryce Young before his pro day in Alabama, there started to be some Bryce Young smoke, and then that's just carried in. So, when did you get it? What were the odds? I think the longest I have is like plus 300, plus 350. I didn't do it until even odds.

It just became queer, like culture guy. The teams that's like in documentaries and stuff when people like storytelling. It's crucial. We're going to do a lot of storytelling.

When they draft like a quarterback, it's like he's a culture guy. Nobody's ever not a culture guy. I guess like maybe Jalen Carter, he's a culture guy. Nobody's ever not a culture guy. I guess, maybe Jalen Carter, maybe not a culture guy. At this point,

he's had some issues. You wouldn't draft him and go, yeah, he's a culture guy. That's what we want. It'd be like, there you go. He's incredibly talented. Overwhelming force in the field.

Herbert wasn't a culture guy because he went back to school for his senior year to get his biochem degree. He was like, who is this guy? He's planning for life after 35? What? What a dick.

And then Baker wasn't a character guy until everybody decided it was cool that he was an a-hole. And then he became a culture guy. He gives you a little FU. It's funny how that changes a little bit. So with Bryce, it seems like part of this is, oh, he's poised. He's the hardest worker.

He's the first guy there, last guy to leave. All that stuff. The problem is, the moment some 330-pound guy falls on him, who the hell knows? So nobody can be wrong

with Bryce Young. You could say he's awesome, and you'd be right. You could say he's too small. He's going to get hurt. You're covered every which way because at some point he will get hurt

because all quarterback. This is like the least controversial argument to have, Bryce Young. But it seems like he's going to go number one. My question is, was that trade worth it?

Was it worth it to move up from nine to get this guy that everybody agrees is a huge question mark because of his size? Like, if I was a Panthers fan and we have one, Stephen Ruiz, somehow we have a Panthers fan on staff.

Unacceptable. I would just be going nuts at this trade. He is. Why did we give up all this stuff? He said to me today, I shouldn't have watched Anthony Richardson's film because now I'm going to be mad when they take Bryce Young. So why do that trade? Well, honestly, I never have agreed with the idea that you trade up and not know who you're

taking. And it sounds like that's what they did. It's kind of what San Francisco did too, right? That didn't work out either. It makes no sense. I think there's like a rationalization in the media, like, oh, you want to be able to control the draft. So therefore you trade up and so you can control.

There's less chaos or whatever what does that even mean i don't like take the guy who you really like if you're going to trade multiple future first round picks or or you know all that draft capital and dj more like you should have conviction that this guy is going to change and turn around our franchise we love this guy he's everything we've ever wanted that's why we're doing this not well we'll go up and get like the guy we decided that we like the most like to me that never makes sense um in addition it's like basically saying we've decided we're living on this street right we don't have the house yet but we've picked a street we like the school district and then you're kind of stuck with the street and now they're kind of Like, what if they do this deep dive?

Anyway, I interrupted you. No, I'm just, the other thing that like worries me about Bryce Young is like, he's already, like we've talked about this ad nauseum through this process, but he's already like an outlier of outliers. He's the smallest early round quarterback of all time by like a lot. Not just short, but slight. And so not only are you betting on this guy's not going to be the outlier, but you're betting multiple picks and a really good player.

You're rolling the dice with real capital. Yeah. And so on one hand, I can kind of see a team would be like, yeah, we're going to bet. We're going to take this guy with our pick and say it's like two or three or five or whatever. And that's like the bet we're making. But like trading all this capital, like basically making the bet of your life on this guy.

And then also he's like a massive, massive outlier. Like to me, that's what's a little bit worrisome about this whole thing. And I like Bryce Young. Well, especially you could have just gotten Lamar Jackson, who's like 48 and 20 as a starting quarterback and just giving up number nine. The end of like 12 different teams strategies

over the last month ends with, and you could have just giving up number nine. The end of like 12 different teams strategies over the last month ends with, and you could have just gotten Lamar Jackson for so many teams and just kind of land on that note. Here's what I would make is the argument for like why you trade up to one. You said like, oh, you get control.

Oh, I can't wait for this. This is exciting. So I'm going to make the case. This is devil's advocate. This is not full on advocating. But you say, right, like trade up for one and you have control over the draft

and you kind of, you know, avoid the chaos. And all right, what does that mean? Like, what does that look like? Yeah. The Texans at two are going through that right now. The Texans were at two. And when the Bears owned the first overall pick, which lest we forget,

Lovey Smith, multiple fourth down conversions, got the Texans out of one, gave it to the Bears. Love you, Lovey. Anyway, with the Texans at two, they were trying to trade up to one at the same time that the Panthers were trying to do it and the Colts were trying to do it.

Everybody was trying to do it. And the Texans didn't get that done. And now they're sitting there at two. All cycle long, they've been connected to Bryce Young. And then all of a sudden, it turns out the Panthers are going to be the team that takes Bryce Young. They're going to take him at one. Now the Texans at two, we're 48 hours out,

are in disarray. No one knows what they're doing. They don't know what they're doing. Their next best quarterback on the board is Will Levis. There's pressure from ownership to take him. The coaching staff

of the front office wants to take a pass rusher. They're split on which pass rusher to take. Some guys, you talk to some people and they're like, oh, Houston has Tyree Wilson

above Will Anderson. You speak to another person, like, yeah, Houston's got Will Anderson above Tyree Wilson. They got no idea what they're doing. They are a house divided.

And that's why having first overall is control. That's why in first overall you a house divided. And that's why having first overall is controlled. That's why on first overall, you avoid this issue. And it's a nice issue to avoid. It shouldn't necessarily cost next year's first round pick, ninth overall pick, and DJ Moore. And that's right. The Panthers pay a steep price for that.

Would have been nice to keep DJ Moore. I don't know. That's my hot side. Not so hopeful for a quarterback. Not stoked about Adam Thielen. We've never seen him ever with a good quarterback in his entire career. I would have liked to have seen it for five minutes. Yeah.

You said Houston's in disarray. That was my next question. So they have two and they have 12. Yep. And there's four quarterbacks, three of which I think we can agree are pretty shaky. Bryce is probably the least shaky, but also the most likely to get hurt.

So who's the solid guy? Well, I would say Bryce would be the quote-unquote solid guy, unless you love one of the other three. But odds are you could get somebody at 12, so you just take the best guy in the draft at 2, and then just kind of keep your fingers crossed at 12, or you trade up. And yet,

this is not how the NFL works. They're going to panic, just like the Jets did with Aaron Rodgers. They're going to be like, we got to get a guy here. And they're going to take him at two, which will then leave the best player in the draft for Arizona at three, whoever that is. That's another thing about this draft.

Everybody disagrees on who the best player in the draft is. But if I'm Houston, Danny, why not just take the best player at two and then figure it out? Watch how the draft evolves. Maybe it's a field situation from a couple years ago or oh he's he's still whoa he's he's still there he's at

eight he's at nine all right I'll trade up and get him like why not do that I mean I think that's I honestly ultimately think that's what they're gonna do in my final mock I've got

them taking Will Anderson at number two although there is some sense that it might be Tyree Wilson instead we don't know yet really but Will Anderson is my two. Although there is some sense that it might be Tyree Wilson instead. We don't know yet really, but Will Anderson is my top ranked player in this class. And I think they really like him

or at least some portion of the team really likes him. And so, yeah, I think that ultimately, since there seems to be a disagreement on what quarterbacks they like or how much they like the quarterbacks that are left, just take the guy that you're really convicted on and see what happens later in the draft.

You like Will Anderson more? Yeah. What do you think, Ben? I like Will Anderson a lot more than Tyree Wilson, who's the edge rusher out of Texas Tech, who might go above

Will Anderson at two. He might go above Will Anderson at three. He might go at five. He's very highly ranked by the league. Big guy, physical guy. Use your robot brain

and give me the best case scenarios for each guy. Tyree Wilson, I think, is going to be like a Jason Pierre Paul sort of a guy. Oh your robot brain and give me the best case scenarios for each guy. Tyree Wilson, I think is going to be like a Jason Pierre Paul sort of a guy. Oh, I like him. With 10 fingers up.

Yeah. Will Anderson gets called like 90% Khalil Mack, which I think is a little rich for me personally, but you can see that outcome. He's like, Will Anderson's really

fundamentally tough. He's very good against the running play, ton of positions. He's just not going to be a perennial like 10, 12 sack guy, which is what you want to be drafting at edge rusher in the top five.

You want to be getting a Nick Bosa, Miles Garrett, Joey Bosa. We've just been spoiled with some of those classes recently. You know, I know nothing about college football. Yeah. But I do know

I am the VP of common sense. Okay. As you know, I don't like the whiff of Will Anderson. No, really? I'm taking that guy. Basically, I'm saying he's the best player in the draft. I need a higher ceiling than 90% Khalil Mack.

There was a guy that was that best player in the draft, and it was Jalen Carter. And the Jalen Carter film was incredible. And he was an Andomacan Si Sioux Fletcher Cox-like player. And then he had, he was arrested during the NFL Combine and Warren went out for his arrest.

I get it. Yeah, for reckless driving. But if we're just doing this in a vacuum, which is my next question, like Jalen Carter and Bijan Robinson are the two best players

in the draft, right? Yeah, I got Jalen Carter one and Bijan three. I blew Anderson two. If we're going to bet, who's going to be not just a blue chipper, but like a dark blue chipper?

Like a really like deep blue sea kind of a blue chipper. Just a blue, just blue, miles and miles of blue, blue chipper. Those would be the two

safest bets, right? Yeah. Jalen Carter, Bijan Robinson. Bijan would be my bet for the lack of the off-field stuff. Jalen Carter is going to go

like somewhere between five and eight. And Bijan Robinson could fall bet for the lack of the off-field stuff. Jalen Carter is going to go somewhere between 5 and 8. And B. John Robinson could fall out of the top 10 because everyone's so terrified of taking running backs. I think Will Anderson's a blue chipper. Yeah?

I do too. I mean, honestly, I think he's got a really high upside and a really high floor. Everything you hear from him is he's like the best guy in terms of work ethic, leadership.

He loves ball. Saban can't say enough good things about this guy. In addition to his physical traits, he has absolutely ridiculous production. Everything you could want and now we're telling ourselves he doesn't have upside. So we're picking him apart a tiny bit. I think we're overthinking him.

People talk about his down season this year. He had 10 sacks and 17 TFLs. Yeah. And that was like defense's game planning for him specifically. And that was like defense's like game planning for him specifically. And has him been arrested. He was playing defensive tackle too.

He was playing inside of the tackle at like 255 pounds. So Houston, just take him and then just take him. Yeah. Or take a quarterback

to make sure you get one so you don't have to start Davis Mills again. It's tough for Houston. Well, all right. So unwinding the Philadelphia 76ers once upon a time, they did the process.

And part of the process was... Swept the Nets, by the way. In case anybody missed it. Part of the process was not only are we taking upside guys, but we're actually kind of wounding next year's team too with what we're doing. We're going to take this guy who, you know, we know he has a knee injury.

He's probably not going to play next year, but that's fine because we'll just suck again. We'll get another top four pick. If I'm Houston, what am I going to do? Win the Super Bowl next year? If I don't love any of the quarterbacks and there's better star power in the quarterback position next year, why not

roll it over? Their fans are tortured anyway. It's not like there's been a ton of fun times in Houston. Don't they have two first-rounders next year, too? Or am I misremembering that? For the Watson trade? I think so, yeah.

Yeah, they do. I'll look it up. But, you know, like, why not make 24 the year where it's like, 24 is our year? Which, there are arguments for that because of the 2024 quarterback class,

which I wrote about this today. Caleb Williams out of USC, who, he's the first guy since Mahomes, who we're going to give Mahomes comms to right everybody's like saying it actually looks the way he plays

is very Mahomes exactly yeah oh you watch him and you're like oh who's that one quarterback who does that oh it's 15 15 is the guy who does that right he looks exactly like it like if you put

him in a chief's uniform I don't know if I could tell the difference like so legitimately 2024 like there are arguments for that I think that's the direction the Cardinals are going frankly if you

look at the Cardinals roster I think they'd go about 500 in the xfl nobody throws away nfl seasons but they really should you can just do it by right you know rolling over the season the thing i would the thing i would say for the texans that makes it tricky is this general manager's second most important job build a championship team win championships win super bowls first most important job keep the a championship team, win championships, win Super Bowls. First most important job, keep the job, baby. Stay employed, cash the check. So if you're Nick Casario and you're getting pressure from your owner to draft the quarterback, which is what I believe is happening in Houston,

you want to stick to your guns and draft an edge rusher, that's fine. I cannot guarantee you will be around to draft the quarterback next year. And that's why you see teams oftentimes take that quarterback. Actually, GMs take that quarterback. Steve Kime made this comment just today, the ex-general manager of the Cardinals. They said, why'd you take Kyla Murray over Nick Bosa? And he said, because Kyla Murray got me extended and Nick

Bosa would have got me fired. Steve Kime apparently does not know. He also took Josh Rosen the year before. Exactly. Also, Steve Kime has been fired, so it didn't really work super great. But right, that's the thing is, if you're getting ownership pressure as a general manager, your priorities change. Also, Steve Kahn has been fired. So it didn't really work super great. But right, that's the thing is, if you're getting ownership pressure as a general manager, your priorities change.

Like, yeah, you could probably build a better contender if you had a two-year look. But if you're going to lose a job if you don't take a quarterback. NFL's so different than NBA because in NBA, the smart move is to actually roll it over

with the owner and be like, hey, man, we're just going to take the best player. Next year's our year. And then you're inadvertently buying yourself an extra year with the owner and be like, hey man, we're just going to take the best player. Next year's our year. And then you're inadvertently buying yourself an extra year because the owner's going, well, he told me this year we're not going to be good, but it's all going to pay off next year.

And then you bought a year. That's basically, Sam Presti's been, and he's done it the most brilliantly, but he's always, even when they suck, there still feels like there's a plan. Presti's the worst case scenario of this. All right, we're going to take a break and then I have more questions for you.

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In West Virginia, visit 1800gambler.net. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days

when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Light keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this. It's game day. All the gang's here. You're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're standing at the grill and the smell of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that. Or when you want a light beer that tastes like beer, that's delicious. You don't want to load up on those heavier beers and then you only have two of them. Then you feel tired. Your stomach feels full. Miller Lite, it's your friend. It just

accompanies whatever else you're doing. You're super happy with it. Opening an ice cold Miller Lite can signal the beginning of Miller time. Miller Lite is the light beer with all the great beer tastes we like. 90 calories per 355 mil can. So why not grab some Miller Lites today? Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. All right, let's go rapid fire. Over under first round bust QBs. These guys are busts. Like hard busts? Like how are we? It's like Josh Rosen slash whoever level.

Zach Wilson. Maybe they start 30 games, but it just never happens. Which I think qualifies. If you're taking the top 10 as a QB and you've started under 30 games or under 40 games and you never win at your best, over, under, two and a half. Would you go over or under? Yeah, I'm going under.

Under. It's a good quarterback class. There's no Lawrence. There's no Andrew Luck. There's no like, take him with the first overall pick and win games the next 15 years straight to the Hall of Fame.

There's no that guy. But the four dudes that we have, Bryce Young, CJ Stroud, Anthony Richardson, and Will Levis are all good prospects. All these guys are going before Kenny Pickett last year. So to me, it's a solid class.

Well, that was my sub question is where would Kenny Pickett have gone? Because I like Kenny Pickett. So you think he's the fifth best QB in this class? Kenny Pickett would have gotten the Derek Carr, Jimmy Garoppolo draft pick if he were in this class. That like second round pick. Yeah, you know, like, you know, where he gets through the first round, in this class. Can you think it would have gotten the Derek Carr, Jimmy Garoppolo draft pick if he were in this class?

That like second round pick. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. Yeah, you know, like, you know, where he gets through the first round, in my opinion. Now... So you're higher on the QBs in this draft than some others.

It's tricky because like the class, I think, gets a little bit miscovered because there's no like star guy. You can poke holes in everybody. So because you poke holes in everybody, it doesn't look that great. It's still like this is a solid, good group. You know what I'm

saying? Like they're drafting Daniel Jones sixth overall, man. Like they've been drafting. Yeah. Yeah. Trey Lance went three. Like Josh Allen went seven. Some very risky quarterbacks are taken very early. Mitchell Trubisky, they traded up for two. You know what I'm saying? Like, yeah. And these guys were imperfect prospects

when they came out, let alone when they become in the NFL. These are imperfect prospects, but they're still good quarterback prospects. I think, yeah, with Bryce Young, I don't think it's a matter of

is he going to be able to function in the NFL? I think he will be able to. The big question is, and how you've explained it too, is how long can he hold up at that size? There's going to be

injury questions. Being 140 pounds. Right. But I think like processing wise, you know, his football character, his accuracy, all those things he's going to be,

I think there's going to be definitely really exciting moments and he's going to function in the NFL that just, like I said, the question is how long I think with Richardson, he's going to have enough runway because of the things he can do in the ground game. Kind of like what we saw with Jalen Hurts. Coming into last season, there were still major question marks about Jalen Hurts. Some people still have question marks about Jalen Hurts as a passer.

I still do. Yeah, and the things he can do on the ground. I'm going to piss up, Ben. Listen, he recruited A.J. Brown and got a lot better as a passer. No further questions. Imagine that, yeah. Nice and easy but like so I think

he has a runway where he's gonna be he's gonna get the opportunity to do some things and like you know we had mentioned Justin Fields before the show like

he's gonna do enough exciting things to buy himself some time and I don't think he's gonna be like just a flat out bust even though he is the most raw

and by that I mean like fewest games started of this group. So you think he's better than what was that guy named Malik Willis? Yeah. It's like a rich man's Malik Willis. Yeah.

Well, this is the thing is like we always like to divide quarterback prospects into just two buckets. This is the ready to play bucket. You can start them tomorrow. This is the project bucket. He needs a ton of work. Which bucket was Mitch Trubisky in?

That's a third bucket. The third bucket, which is just why just during the headlights yeah but the reality is that it's a spectrum right like Richardson is a project in the sense that

he's underdeveloped he's got accuracy issues like he needs time like he's only started 12-13 games but he is remarkably more comfortable in the pocket

remarkably better at manipulating defenses not throwing into the teeth of coverage than like Malik Wills was, than Josh Allen was, than Trey Lance was. That doesn't mean he's going to follow any one of those three arcs precisely.

Landing spot matters a ton. When you watch Richardson, you see a guy who's trying to do it the right way and just needs reps, needs good coaching, needs experience doing it the right way to habituate. You can build an offense around at least the skill set of being a fucking awesome athlete who can run the ball and take off. With great

pocket management skills too. He's like Richardson has, of quarterbacks who have come out in the last five, six years, one of the lowest sack rates on pressures in college football for top prospects. Just below Patrick Mahomes. This is not Justin Fields, Marcus Mariota, Daniel Jones. Where I'm big, I'm strong, and I run around behind the line of scrimmage

for 13 minutes just making stuff up. He was like buying time. You know, he's checking the ball down. So he doesn't scramble right and then run out of bounds like Zach Wilson does. And so, right, that's where, again, that spectrum of projects comes in where people go, okay, big, fast,

and he hasn't started that much. He's probably kind of crazy back there. He isn't. He isn't at all. If you watch the film, you're like, all right, this guy gets it. We just need to get him over the hump. The other thing I will add to this is you're asking now,

like, let's talk about this after we find out what teams they land on because that to me is the actually I'd sell my soul for Richardson to end up with Frank Reich. Oh, it would be so cool.

It's not going to happen. I just, it's, I can't. Are we positive it's not going to happen? Yeah. Okay. Makes me sad.

I just think there is so, so important how teams go about developing these guys who they surround them with the continuity of the coaching staff

so don't hire Matt Patricia as their offensive coordinator as an example just kind of out of the air that's a good like theoretical don't hire a defensive coordinator or whatever

to run the offense it's such an important thing. Like, I really believe you can have a really good, really, really good prospect. And if he lands in a crappy situation where there's no support, he's not going to make it. And so I think landing spot is massive. So where would be like a worst case scenario landing spot for Richardson?

Tennessee. Yeah, because they don't have any support system right now. Let's play a game of name Tennessee offensive linemen. Andre Dillard's there for some reason. Start left tackle. Which makes no sense.

If Solak can't name five Tennessee offensive linemen, we're in trouble. Nicholas Petit Frere. Yeah. I just feel like Houston's a bad landing spot for anybody. Yeah.

That franchise is a complete mess. They fired a coach like every year. It was like the holiday season. It's is a complete mess. They fired a coach like every year. It was like the holiday season. It's like Christmas and the Texans fire a coach. None of the landing spots are great. Like Carolina I think is good.

Houston's not good. Carolina was the best supporting cast for somebody to walk into. Sam Darnold, second in the league in EPA per play, baby. I'm still mad

they didn't make the playoffs. I feel like they would have thrown some haymakers. He kind of fell apart though that last game. He did. Well, everyone remembered he was Sam Darnold. We'll always have the Lions game. Just like running on them like crazy.

But like, I don't think Houston's a good landing spot. Raiders, Tennessee are not that good. And that's why it's fun to think about like there's, you know, the Lions have very quietly done their work on this quarterback class. The Seahawks obviously have met with everybody. I was going to say, did someone not mention

the Seahawks? They've taken their selfies with all of their quarterback prospects when they met with them. The Vikings have done the work. So there's some sneaky teams that you hope.

Danny wants them at five for his beloved Seahawks. In my heart. I'm just like. And Pete Carroll does the whole, I'm so pumped and jacked. This guy is a special player.

We'll move him into our world. I think it's just a perfect situation for him, which is why, honestly, I would almost rather they take a non-quarterback if it's not Richardson. Even though I have other guys, I like Bryce and Stroud a little bit more just from in my rankings. I just have them a little bit higher.

But Richardson landing with the Seahawks where they would be in theory continuity a really strong program and they have good weapons

and DK Metcalf and Lockett yeah and like honestly just it's perfect situation for him because he wouldn't have to start right away

Gino Smith is under contract but the contract is you can get out of it after a year or two and and yet if they took Jalen Carter fifth you'd talk yourself is under contract, but the contract is you can get out of it after a year or two. And yet, if they took Jalen Carter fifth, you'd talk yourself

into that in about five seconds. I literally texted that verbatim. If they take Carter, I'll talk myself into it. But it is a little bit spooky right now

just because... It's not like the NFC East. It's not like the NFC is, I don't know, stacked. You know, the Seattle,

what did you finish, 10-7 last year? They played in a playoff game. And then they have the fifth overall pick. It's the best situation a team is in besides the Eagles. This is so hard, though, because it's the win forever thing, right? Like, he literally wrote a book called Win Forever. It's not, let's go for it this year.

You know, they want to build this. Carroll's 73 now. Have you seen him? He thinks about everything in terms of Trevor. Have you seen him? He thinks about everything in terms of Trevor. Have you seen him? He doesn't. He has no plans. He's like LeBron.

Him and LeBron have the same guy. Love Pete. He's got so much energy. He has more energy than me. So you don't, neither of you think Richardson's a bust?

No. I would say the highest bust potential is Young because of injury and because of size concerns, right? When you have a small quarterback, you're kind of destined to play a certain sort of offense and because of size concerns, right? When you have a small quarterback,

you're kind of destined to play a certain sort of offense, a certain sort of play style. And then Young specifically just invites so many hits. Like, the first thing you have to do when Young gets in the building is be like, all right,

here's a highlight reel. 30 times you took an unnecessary shot from a Texas defensive lineman. You don't get to do this anymore. You now are a bajillion dollar face of the franchise. Yeah. And everybody here is large.

You can't do this. So I would say it's Bryce. Stroud's also up there because Stroud... I'm locking in Stroud as a bust. Oh, yeah? Just the processing? He just...

What is it? Just from levitating above this, which is being unencumbered with my thoughts and baggage of things. Right. I'm just like, this guy doesn't have it. His name's CJ. He's went to

Ohio State. There's rumors that he's a dick. CJ is your quarterback. I just don't see it. It's funny. How many great initial quarterbacks have we had? His initials are in CJ, right? I'm just looking that up. His name, Coleridge? Yeah, his name is Coleridge. Can you name me the great

two-letter initial quarterbacks? AJ Feeley. I immediately go to EJ Manuel, AJ Feeley. Man. It's just, I don't see it. CJ Bathard? It's like, man, CJ really came through for us. I don't know.

He just, I don't like that he dropped. He was like in that one-two range, and now it's like, where is he going to go? Like, why is he dropping? Everybody's getting under the hood and they don't like what they see. He was a little busted to me. And then Levis is the other one. I mean, he feels to me

the most likely to. AJ McCarron? That's not a good argument. I'm going to try to pull as many two initial quarterbacks as I can. I'm telling you. He named like Justin Herbert,

Joe Burrow, Patrick Mahomes. If you say anything CJ Shroud, if you say it in the voice, it sounds better. I don't know if Patrick Mahomes is that great of a quarterback name. I'm fine with it. I like it too. I don't know. It's Mahomes. He's become Mahomes.

I like when you called him 15. I like when he would just become the number. You're just turning into a I like when you call them 15. I like when you just become the number. You're just turning into a coach. That's the football guy thing. Yeah, exactly. In draft season, that's what we do. We never name players. We say their numbers

and we say the school they played for. The kid from Georgia. Yeah, 90 or whatever. If we count Hendon Hooker for the first round bus, I'm taking the over. Oh, yeah. That gets me to three.

Including Hooker. Interesting. Oh, yeah. I didn't even think about that. I'm going for that one. Switching my answer. Trey Lance. San Francisco decides

we want to trade him for a first-round pick. Do they get it? No. No way? No, I can't get a first. Not right now. He's been hurt.

He hasn't proven anything. High second? Yeah, I would say I think so. I would say day two is where you're going to get it. If I'm an NFL team and Kyle Shanahan

is trying to get rid of a quarterback, the implication being that Kyle couldn't make him work.. If I'm an NFL team and Kyle Shanahan is trying to get rid of a quarterback, the implication being that Kyle couldn't make him work. Yeah. I'm not touching that with a 39.5-foot pole.

I'm out. I don't know, though. He kind of has his things where he just turns on a player for whatever reason. Usually he just benches him

for a few weeks. Puts him in the dock house until they come around. If Kyle Shanahan, leading offensive line of our generation, is electing Brock Purdy off of a UCL injury

and Sam Donald over somebody, I am worried about that somebody. Just sight unseen. And I like Trey Lance a lot. I didn't love what we saw before he got hurt last season either. The Chicago film, he played the monsoon.

He had three great, exciting throws. He had three terrible throws. And they're trying to figure out what sort of offense they want to run. And I was like, all right, here's the foundation. And then he gets injured. And at this point,

you just can't put eggs in that basket. If he's mobility coming off of now multiple lower body injuries, it's too much of a risk. But that was what we thought he was going to be

when he came out, right? There was a little bit, because he hadn't played in a year. There's a project element to it. He was lower level of competition. Is he younger than Hooker?

I think they're born in the same year. I think they were both born in 97. I think he is. Would you rather have Trey Lance or Hooker? I think they were born in the same year. I think they were both born in 97. I think he is. Would you rather have Trey Lance or Hooker? Trey Lance over Hendon Hooker by a mile. Trey Lance is 22. He's like three years younger than Hendon Hooker.

He's almost like a full high school. That's Hooker and Lamar. That's Hooker and Lamar. Hooker and Lamar were in the same year. He's 25? Oh, yeah. Hooker's going to be 26 when he starts playing in the NFL. And he's coming off of an ACL

and he was only productive for one year in college in a made-up system. It might go like 29th. Yes, that got Robert Griffin III the Heisman. It's the Baylor offense. It's the most ridiculous hype

for a first-round quarterback I've ever seen. He's actually the same age as Sam Darnold, I think. And Hooker? Yeah. He's five years older than Zach Wilson.

Why can't Indy... We talked about Houston. Hooker? Yeah. He's five years older than Zach Wilson. Why can't Indy, we talked about Houston, why does Indy have to take a QB? What's so special about their season that's coming up? What's looking great for them? Why not just suck again? Ownership. Again, I'd say it's a similar answer. I'd say it's

ownership putting pressure on the general manager. Chris Ballard now has had five starting quarterbacks in five seasons and has not... They've won one playoff game, I want to say, in five years. And so the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Like, you've been cycling in veterans and it hasn't worked. Are you going to put a sixth veteran in?

But a couple of those veterans, they could have just asked us what we thought and we would have said, that's not going to work. Phillip Rivers is washed up. Matt Ryan is washed up. And that's the unfair thing about it is that Ballard now takes heat for like Wentz

which really was probably mostly Reich but Oh right. Yeah. Jim Mercer at this point is I think Like what would you

give the odds on Wentz Ryan and Phil Rivers being like multi-round playoff quarterbacks for the Colts? I drank the tea

on Matt Ryan a little bit. I did too. I did too a little bit. Because he actually put up numbers the year before and then all of a sudden the age cliff was gone.

The age cliff he fell off it. Ram it up my gambling butthole a couple times in the beginning of the season. That Chiefs game week four? Oh my goodness.

He had a couple. The Chiefs had the fumble. That was when the Chiefs couldn't return a kick he did this thing where he would just suck for two and a half hours and then would all of a sudden

turn into a 2017 bat riding again that was so irritating is there now that I'm thinking about it though is there any chance they don't take a quarterback the move is not

to take a quarterback why new coach get an awesome player I just want to if I have a top five pick I either want to come out with a franchise QB Get an awesome player. I just want to, if I have a top five pick, I either want to come out with a franchise QB

or an awesome player. But the class is bad. It's bad class. Which like, at four, they could get Will Anderson, Jalen Carter,

Bijan, put Bijan back there with Jonathan Taylor. Oh my God. But like, okay, put Jalen Carter next to DeForest Buckner.

You're walking into next year starting Sam Ellinger and just everybody knows you're dead meat. Gardner's there. Gardner Minshew, baby. Oh, my heavens. I can't.

This is my answer to everything. This is why. Just trade for Lamar Jackson. I should have known. Gardner Minshew. I should have known. This is why he's advocating for it. Yeah, we're set.

Although my Minshew stock took a hit after that one game he had. Same. I was there with you. What was that one? Well, he played against Dallas. When he stunk. They scored like 34. But then the next game he stunk.

Yeah, yeah, and they were pretty bad. No, I was going to say, just take the best guy and then trade for Lamar. I'm always on board with all things that end with and then trade for Lamar. That trade for Lamar

is the answer for every team. They're the favorite Lamar team other than the Ravens, right? They're high in the odds. The Patriots are high in the odds. Falcons are still up there. I guarantee you, the Patriots won't trade for Lamar Jackson. It will never happen. What do you hope The Patriots are high in the odds. Falcons are still up there. I guarantee you the Patriots won't trade

for Lamar Jackson. It will never happen. What do you hope the Patriots do? You really want to do this now? I'm curious. Here's my theory. Okay.

Based on some birdies. I don't know if Belichick craft is lasting much longer. Okay. And I don't think this Belichick-Craft is lasting much longer. And I don't think this will be the year that they trade backwards and, oh, we got

2,024 second because we moved back 11 spots. I think it'll be much more aggressive this year. I think so too. Because this could be the beginning of the end. The Mac Jones thing is not awesome. Craft wanted Zappy to be the starting quarterback second half of the season.

There's a lot of weird Mac stuff. And I'm honestly prepared for anything. I might actually, Kyle, I might actually watch a draft with you. I know we haven't hung out. We haven't hung out since you made me sick for a week and a half. What a rough road. But we might have to watch the draft together. I'm just prepared for anything.

What do I hope they do? I hope they get one of these awesome guys that falls down to 14. That sounds great. There's like blue chippers. Anderson, Wilson, Carter, Skowronski, Witherspoon, Gonzalez, Bijan, Robinson, right? That's seven.

You figure all of those will go before them, right? Gonzalez might get outside the top 10, but everybody else, yeah, they'll go. They're going to get somebody good. And then the tight end who Danny and I both really like. I studied him on YouTube for seven minutes. He looks great. He looks like a three down tight end,

which is like how many of those are there? How many three down tight ends are there? Not Hunter Henry, not Johnnie Smith. Seven, six, Smith. Seven. Six. Yeah. Yeah. If I'm going to pick a tight end

in the first round, I want to make sure they play every down. I like Friar Muth. I would say, yeah. Friar Muth is fucking out there. He's like Friar Muth jacked up. Bonus. Like, yeah.

Rich man's Friar Muth. Yes. Wow. Sounds great. We're cooking. I just think you don't take first round tight ends in general. And this class has just got tight ends. Well, yeah. Rich man's fry arm booth. Wow. Sounds great. We're cooking. I just think you don't take first round tight ends in general. And this class has just got

tight ends. Well, we agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you have to look at it like a fantasy draft or how the free agent salary stuff goes. You watch any Zay Flowers yet? The wide receiver out of Boston College?

I'm aware of him. Oh, okay. I was trying to make sure Zay was on the radar. The past night with Zay like at the Shrine Bowl, at the Combine, at the local day,

they brought him in for a visit. They've hung out with Zay Flowers many times over the last month. I think it's possible. And I do think I do think they'll go they could go skill position. I think

knowing Belichick just how he thinks about this shit if Bijan Robinson fell out of the top, like, eight, I think they would get aggressive. Yeah, this is a thing that people are talking about already. Does that really move the needle for them a lot, though? Yes. They got

Romandre. I'd be a hypocrite because I was the number one Saquon Barkley defending that you've got to do this. Remember, it was him versus Darnold and it was like, nobody thinks Darnold's that good. Take the awesome

transcendent running back and he just got hurt. But he's still really good. He's still really valuable. I thought he was a winning player last year. Maybe he doesn't need to go too. But it seems like B. John Robinson is even more highly thought of

than Barkley was, right? He's on the same level. Most people I think are like, yeah, it's him or Barkley. I like him of than Barkley was, right? He's on the same level. Most people I think are like, yeah, it's him or Barkley. I like him more than Barkley. I don't think he's going to obviously go that early because we're kind of in a different era. There's no Dave Gettleman in the league anymore. Even though vindicated Dave Gettleman,

franchise tax take on Barkley, extension for Daniel Jones, all right? Dave called it, but regardless. I think Bijan's more like going, I think eight to the Falcons is where you start the clock. That's stupid. They can't do that. No, they could do it. It'd be sick.

No, come on. You already did that with Kyle Pitts. Your whole team stinks. Think about every single one of their skill position players being just way bigger than all the other team's skill positions. That's their whole play. I want to live in this world. Giant tight end.

Giant receivers. Drake London, Mack Hollins. We already have a big running back, Cordell Patterson. Second big running back, Desmond Ritter, baby. My boy.

He was terrible last season. He was not. He was okay. He's okay. Yes. He's stock blaster. What are you guys talking about? He was settling into NFL speed.

He was not good. There was a second down play action throw against the Saints that was sick. What's the most fun Bijan Robinson team? It's got to be the Eagles, right? Oh, yeah. That causes actual riot.

Yeah. Eagles or Bengals if he falls that far. But he's not falling that far. No. Because there's been some Joe Mixon might not be back buzz. Oh, yeah. Or like we take a pay cut. There's a lot of Alabama running back Jameer Gibbs is going to make it into the first round conversation over last week.

And I think the team that's going to do that is the Bengals. They're at the end of round one. Eagles, Bichon is fascinating because everybody

immediately says, well, Howie would never take a running back that early. Howie took Miles Sanders at 53 out of Penn State. Right. And when you go

and you look at where the top of the running back class is going most years, like you're Josh Jacobs, you're Saquon Barkley's, you're typically seeing beginning of the second round, right? That's where you have Jonathan Taylor's and your Nick Chubbs and your Brees Halls and your J.K. Dobbins. Like a lot of general managers, analytics-oriented guys too,

start taking running backs in the second round. Howie has not historically devalued running back. The way like Howie's never taken a first round corner ever. That's a premium position, so of course he would. No, he hasn't done it. And running back is taking it around too. So I I don't think Bichon's off the table. I do think they're posturing. I think they want Jalen Carter. I think that's their whole plan

and that's the direction they'd like to go. You can trade up, right? Yeah. There's a lot of Eagles are looking at small trade-ups conversation, and I think that's mostly for Jalen Carter. So the two teams that should unquestionably trade back, this is going to be another one of my questions, are Arizona and Vegas.

Vegas just needs players. Arizona needs players, and they don't care about this year anyway, and they're stuck with quarterback. It's not like they can take one because they just gave Kyler all that money. So it does feel like three is probably too high for Jalen Carter, but seven isn't.

Throw them, what would that be? Like a third? Ten that be? Like a third? Like a future fourth to move up three spots? You're doing a pick inside like 40 to 60, 40 to 70, and then something on top. It's funny. The Cardinals and the Raiders boards

are extremely similar because it's Monty Austin Fort and Dave Ziegler. It's just two Patriots cast-off guys. And so it's weird. There's so many great drafts from us lately. Yeah. And it's interesting because Cardinals definitely should trade back.

Raiders have been a trade-up rumor team because people think about them going for a quarterback. And when you go to link, okay, who are they trading up with? The Cardinals at three are the team that makes the most sense.

Cardinals move back, they still got one of their guys. Obviously, the GMs know each other. And then the Raiders get whoever the third quarterback is. I don't know who the Raiders like at quarterback. Why would the Raiders get whoever the third quarterback is. I don't know who the Raiders like at quarterback.

Why would the Raiders trade up? What would be the point of that? McDaniels, to me, McDaniels is a firing possibility if they suck again this year

because of how last year played out. To get a quarterback, right? Yeah. This is the one where like, they got a quarterback.

This is the one where like, with Houston, I'm like, all right, take a quarterback, protect the GM's job. With Colts, I'm like, all right, take a quarterback, protect the GM's job You know, this is the one where like, this is the one where like with Houston, with Houston, I'm like, all right, take a quarterback, protect the GM's job. With Colts, I'm like, all right, take a quarterback,

protect the GM's job. The Raiders is the one where I'm like, stop. Prove that Josh McDaniel can do anything in terms of like coaching a team to success. And then we'll go

and give the guy a guy. But I, with the Raiders, I'm absolutely, I wouldn't be doing it if I were running the team. But they've looked into the quarterback class. They tried to trade up for one overall. I like McDaniels, but with the Raiders, I'm absolutely I wouldn't be doing it if I were running the team. But they've looked into the quarterback class. They tried to trade up for one overall.

I like McDaniels, but he had the greatest quarterback of all time the entire time that he succeeded. And it's really hard to unhinge that from whatever success he had. Won an overtime playoff game with Tim Tebow, baby. That's the second jewel. He also drafted Tim Tebow. I bet on that game.

Most fun dot dot dot. Most fun B. John Robinson team. Is it the Eagles? Yeah. What's the backup choice? Titans. Now that sounds fun because he's on a shit team

just getting a shake of gather. It's funny to me because the football nerds would be really upset. So that's just exclusive. That's for my enjoyment. Falcons are really fun though. Lions?

Lions. Well, it would be fun though. It would be. Falcons are really fun though. Lions? Lions. Well, it would be fun though. It would be. Falcons are really fun. Falcons would be fun. They run the ball a lot. I would love to see the Falcons with Pitts, London, and Bijon.

That would be so fun. Just elite off the bus team. Just looking great walking into the stadium. Losing by 14. Most fun Richardson team? Lions? Colts?

Lions? No, Lions. Lions, Lions, Lions, Lions. Or Seahawks, but I'm totally biased on that. Lions would be sick. I don't know if I would do that if I was the Lions

because I think they have a chance to make the Super Bowl this year. With Jared Goff? I do. I think they have a chance. In the NFC? I think that conference is weak. I think they have a chance.

Jared Goff in the playoffs, man. That's fine. Every quarterback gets hurt for the 49ers. It's just like inevitable. What are the 49ers quarterback better? Oh, you're saying

they got to get past the 49ers. I was like, Goff's on the Rams, dude. Brock Purdy was in the NFC title game. All bets are off. Right. I'm prepared for anything.

So I don't know. I think Detroit's, if you're just going roster talent, Eagles are one. Who's two in the NFC? I would say. San Francisco.

Oh, San Francisco and Dallas. And Detroit. That's probably your top four, right? Yeah. Green Bay's got a lot of talent, but a lot of it's in like weird spots. Yeah. I would say that's your top four.

This is a crazy conference. It's terrible. Wide open. All the good quarterbacks are in the other conference. The Lions are at such an unbelievable precipice for this reason. Rodgers is out of the division.

The conference is super weak. They have every piece around quarterback built beautifully. Wide receiver room, good. Offensive line, incredible. Defense, improving. They have a great DC.

They kept Ben Johnson, their offensive coordinator, young offensive coordinator. Started doing the head coaching cycle. They said, stop interviewing folks. Come back here. Stay in Detroit.

They gave him a huge contract. They extended Aaron Glenn. They have got their coordinators in place. Everything is in place. Come back here. Stay in Detroit. They gave him a huge contract. They extended Aaron Glenn. They have got their coordinators in place. Everything is in place. And they have six and they have 20. If there is a time to go get the quarterback, you're never going to have this good of draft capital again. But you're going to be too good.

You have two first rounders. I think they had 18. Oh, yes. They have six and 18. Six and 18. Excuse me. Six and 18 is like six is like an impact starter. And 18 is a starter

on top of all the other talent they have I would go for it I would not pick a QB and I thought Goff was good last year I don't know I think

he makes sense on that team I'm pro Goff but so let's say like the Lions were about 500 last year right and they came around the bend really nicely let's say they draft

Will Anderson at 6 and they draft a defensive tackle Brian Breezy Kalajikantzi one of these guys at 6 and they draft a defensive tackle, Brian Breezy, Kalajik Hansley, one of these guys at 18. They're adding a couple of wins? That's a lot, isn't it? Okay, they win the NFC North.

I don't think it moves the needle for them up into like the Eagles-Cowboys-Niners tier. And I think you're capped with golf. You would have said that about the Eagles last April. The Eagles were plus 200 to win the NFC East, remember? We knew a little bit less

about Jalen Hurts then than we know about Jared Goff now. We got data on Jared Goff. You know what I'm saying? They didn't have the push play. Yeah. For me, we didn't know that

to speak yet. That was the key. To me, a team with Goff as the starting quarterback is capped. And I think that the Lions have to know

that they are never going to have capital like this again to go get a quarterback. I think that the Lions have to know that they are never going to have capital like this again to go get a quarterback. I think they're the team to me that like if they just completely pass on quarterback

it'll be a big mistake. I just don't love the quarterback so I'd rather go for the starters. The problem is they're probably going to go take Will Anderson and then take Hennon Hooker at 18.

I'm going to lose my mind. I'm going to be screaming at the television for the next two years. At that point trade 18 for Trey Lance. Trey Lance is great for the Lions. Everybody's great for the Lions.

They have unbelievable pass protection. They have a quarterback-friendly offense. Just get somebody, anybody. It's not Jared Goff and Nate Sudfeld. Definite, unquestionable blue chippers. I think we talked about this, but I just wanted to get this down. Anderson, Wilson, Carter, Skowronski,

Witherspoon, Gonzalez, Bijan Robinson. Would you throw the tight end in there? I wouldn't say he's a blue chip. I would throw Jackson Smith and Jigba in there. You'd throw him in? I think he's a blue chip talent. I don't think so. I think he's a good slot receiver.

That makes him a dark red chipper. Yeah. Right. With the caliber of receiver talent in the league right now, I think you just need more. So we only have seven guys then Plus However you feel about the quarterbacks

Yeah And that's like its own Yeah I would take Tyree Wilson out too For me Just because he's got injury stuff He's super old He's 23

He didn't start producing Until he was old He's got some red flags on him But the league loves him So we've got six Yeah This is the problem with this draft There's not a good class

There's several Blue chippers And then like 70 Pretty good players So Philly should trade up. They should use 10 and try to get it to at least 7. Right, to go get Carter. And then if they can't, they should trade back. It's kind of like, if you can get up there,

get up there. But if you can't, 10 is awkward. Their best options is to hang at 10 and like Bijon already goes and Carter already goes. It's like, take a tackle in case Lane Johnson retires in two years. Like that's, you know, Peter Skowronski to ride the bench and maybe be the starting guard.

Yeah, exactly. Eagles got a good roster. No way. Yeah. I would even say like you have Devon Witherspoon in the Illinois corner. He's 180 pounds.

Yeah. You don't see corners this late. It's Jair Alexander and Denzel Ward in terms of like top five, top 10 picks at corner go in this early at this size. And so it's...

Outliers. Even the blue chippers in this class got flags. It is not a strong class. Yeesh. It's deep though. Of course, this is the year that Pats up the 14th pick.

It's going to be a fun draft. All right, so let's end there. Who do the Pats take? That's really all I care about. I think the Pats... And Kyle. I think the Pats trade up. I think they get Will Levis.

Ooh, I love that. Jesus. Really? Just threw that at him. How high would you have to trade up? Two or three. Really? Yep.

Because you think Houston's going to take him unless... The Colts at four have told everybody with an ear, we love Will Levis. Can't wait to take him to four. We're so excited. Isn't that a red flag? They went to the New York Jets school of poker. We love Aaron Rodgers. Here's what we would give up.

And so I think that if you want Will Levis, you have to own a pick one, two, three, or four. You gotta own one of those selections. I think he's gone by four. I kind of, I, yeah. You're probably right, but I'm still, I'm just like I'm like Will Levis is going to fall a little

I think he's going to fall NFL loves Will Levis prepares well works hard this sounds horrible tough they uh

good handshake there's a great NFL Jack Jones was tough there's a great anonymous scout quote where it's like he had to get in NFL play calls

in the huddle was great he can speak the language get in the play call zings it's like the long to get in NFL play calls in the huddle. It was great. He can speak the language. Getting the play calls in because it's like the long wordy Shanahan play calls. Oh, we love the way

he got the play calls in. So he's just NFL teams literally relayed them into the players. NFL teams do not want to draft NFL quarterbacks. They want to draft guys

who seem like NFL quarterbacks. Will Levis just seems like he'd be a good NFL quarterback. I don't know. I just can't. I'm still I don't know how to feel can't. I'm still, I don't know how to feel about Mac Jones because they just

took his second season and covered it in dog shit. Tossed it. Flushed it. And had the dumbest, worst offensive strategy game to game of any Pats team since I was in college. So it's hard for me to say like, oh Mac, if I was another team

I would be trying to trade for Mac Jones because I'm like, there might be something here. This guy, Matt Patricia is offense coordinator. Right. Like the Raiders, they signed out. What's his face? That Jacoby Myers that Kyle loved. He would just catch the ball and get tackled.

We had no guys on the team that could catch the ball and actually like run an extra five, six yards. Nelson, I have a couple. When he caught it, could go. Well, he wouldn't even catch it half the time. Do you think Stroud is Mac Jonesy a little? Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, but I would say Mac is better, like pocket ball work. Mac's a little more compact, like quicker release too. Stroud is gangly. Stroud is souped up golf. I know that's, yeah. Early in the process,

we were kind of comping him to golf a little bit. And that's a red flag. Yeah. I don't think he's golf. I think he's closer to like a Dak Prescott. He's just not creative. Dak's creative. And I call him the Dak too.

It's just he doesn't create as much. He doesn't generate as much offense on his own. But you, in your charting, he's super accurate. Extremely accurate. That's the thing. You want to be accurate, throw the ball to Marvin Harrison Jr. He'd make you look real accurate. He's got, seriously, fine adjustments.

The best collection of college receivers of all time. One last point. I'm going to whisper it because it's... Why doesn't Miami need a quarterback? They don't have to pick you to get a quarterback. Tom Brady... But why are they never mentioned in the teams that might need a quarterback conversation?

Like Tua talked about this multiple times, but they came out, Tua thought about retiring after last season. I don't think that's a stable lock him down for the next five years thing at all. They have a good team that they went all in on. Teddy's a free agent. Teddy's not good either.

They brought in Mike White. Right now, the room is Tua, Mike White, and Skylar Thompson. Technically, they have a room. They don't need White. And so right now the room is two of them. Mike White and Skylar Thompson. So technically they have a room. They don't need to add a body. The Lions only have two guys in the room right now. They have to draft somebody to put them in there. Brady's going to come back. I'm just telling you guys.

To Miami? Brady's coming back. To Miami? To somewhere. He's coming back. I don't want this. Miami. Who knows?

Honestly, would you bet your life that he wouldn't come back to the Pats? I wouldn't bet this. Miami. Who knows? Would it, like, honestly, would you bet your life that he wouldn't come back to the Pats? No, I wouldn't bet my life on anything Tom Brady related. Have you seen Brady? He's starting to get super weird.

I want him to go to the Raiders and take Garoppolo's job. Oh my God. And then have him get traded. Raiders is another possibility for him. That would be funny. That would be really funny.

I just feel, remember that year when, what team tried to get Drew Brees to come back in like November? After he retired, it was like somebody's QB got hurt. I always love these stories where they call.

Drew Brees, they tried to talk him into coming back. Yeah, Phillip Rivers, they did that with Rivers too. Same thing with Phillip Rivers. And I just feel like somebody will get hurt in like September, October,

and then the Tom Brady stories will start. There's no way he's not throwing every day. No way. None. Zero. Right now, he's throwing to some guy in the Bahamas. Just like, hold on, one more. Was Clothing Line doing well? I don't think anything's going that well with TB.

I will say 80 vs. Brady was pretty good. Oh, yeah. I forgot he did a movie. My wife and her friends, they all got together and they watched it and they really liked it. I thought I did a movie. My wife and her friends, they all got together and they watched it and they really liked it. I thought the preview was an SNL skit.

I thought it was fake when I saw it. I thought it was like one of those shorts from SNL. I did too. It's like totally watchable. It's an old actress movie.

It's like, here's a bunch of old actresses that have had a lot of plastic surgery and they're gonna try to go to this Pats game I'll throw Tom Brady in it

Tom Brady is in it yeah he is Tom Brady is seeds oh there is no way you won't enjoy 80 vs. Brady I'm excited

I can't wait 100% promise movie connoisseur that I am I'll watch you with a discerning eye alright good to see you guys so

Ring of the NFL draft see you guys. So, Ring of the NFL Draft show. You guys are there all week. You're also on the Philly Special. Yep. And it's going to be an interesting week for both of you guys.

It's a chaos draft, which is a ton of fun, but also very worrisome because you got to be prepared for everything. Yep. Good to see you. You too.

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It is almost 1130 a.m. Pacific time. Joe House is here. David Jacoby is here. We're going to talk some basketball playoffs. I went to the Laker game last night. We can start there and just do a big picture LeBron thing. We can talk about Jimmy Butler putting the Bucs to the precipice. Let's start there, actually, because somebody asked me today,

a well-respected basketball person, whether Butler was in the pyramid for me yet. And I went on a big deep dive dive and he's not there yet because the resume was actually a little worse than I remember. But yet the impact is way bigger than I remember. He's only in three 13 mall MBAs. I think he's going to get second team this year. Right. So only once in any season was he considered one of the 10 best players in the league. It'll be this year, probably because Durant got hurt. Some other guys, six all-stars, five second team, all defense.

And yet the playoff stuff, Jacoby, that's what stands out. Like 2013, his first series, they beat the Nets in seven. Then they lost to Miami in five and he did a good job on LeBron. This was early Jimmy Butler. We're like, who's this guy? 2015, second round, lost to Cleveland in six. Same thing. Good job on LeBron.

So he's on the map. 2019, the Philly series. He felt like the biggest alpha on that Philly team. They lose in seven. 2020, that was the finals run last year against Boston. If he knocks out Milwaukee, where does this put him for you? Well, first of all, let's go Knicks!

We'll get to them. We'll get to them later. But this is related because I'm watching this series as someone rooting for the Knicks thinking, oh my god, we could draw the heat and host a game one and potentially a game seven in Madison Square Garden because I definitely don't want to play against Giannis.

Then you're watching last night's game and you're like, I don't want to play against Jimmy Butler either. Like those two threes he hit, he can't, he's not a jump shooter, but in the moment he's hitting these threes, he has these performances. Game five in the bubble, I'll never forget. It'll be forgotten forever because LeBron ended up winning game six, but game five in the bubble was just toe-to-toe heavyweight fight trading punches with one of the best players ever and last night he's played he played like i don't know like 75 minutes or something but the energy that he has at the end of the game he's hanging on the rim he's screaming at the top of his lungs this is my shit which i don't even know what it means like the arena is his shit miami's shit beating people

in the playoffs is his shit french time yeah i don't know what his shit is but i respect it he's like turned he morphs in like a mythical creature from time to time in the playoffs is his shit. French time? Yeah, I don't know what his shit is, but I respect it. He morphs into a mythical creature from time to time in the playoffs that just cannot be stopped. And I was literally watching it, rooting for the Knicks, wondering, I don't want to play against Giannis or Jimmy Butler in the next round at all.

See, just rooting for plan C, which doesn't exist. Yeah, you get one of those two. Who does he remind you of historically somebody who's just better when it matters yeah so i was trying to find some some comps uh and i went deep into the basketball reference and so on and so forth weirdly like the closest i could come up with and it doesn't really it's not a great match it felt felt like maybe Kawhi because Kawhi really made his bones on the playoff stage. He won that finals MVP early in his career and then went and validated that by another finals MVP for an entirely different team.

Our view of Kawhi now is probably permanently impaired by the fact that he just can't play any longer and it's a bummer. But like, I can't think of another player who so dramatically, you know, I tried to talk you out of Jimmy Butler on all NBA second team for the season because I was mad at him and mad at the heat for the garbage team that they were all regular season. They should have not, the Brooklyn Nets should not have been in the playoffs this year. They were in the playoffs because the heat basically let them in. The heat hosted them right down the stretch in a game in Miami and, and we're up, uh, you know, considerably in the first half and then had their worst defensive performance of the year. Setting all that aside, though, the vision that we have of Jimmy Butler,

and it was really super enhanced by the bubble because it was really like we were living in that COVID moment. Those NBA games, at least for me, I couldn't look forward to them anymore. It was like the thing that I was looking forward to every day. And Jimmy Butler showed up, you know, through that whole series and established himself as an all-timer. He's got to be in the pyramid, I think. Yeah.

Well, we'll see if he can finish off Milwaukee. So I was thinking about a guy near and dear to your heart house, Bobby D. Yeah. Who was really good, but then in the postseason could levitate with some of the greats, right? He beat George Gervin. They came back from 3-1 in that series. Even though he wasn't considered a superstar, he could go toe-to-toe with the superstars.

And I think that's what makes Butler special to me when I think of his career. And this goes back to those early Bulls things that I mentioned, like against LeBron, it doesn't feel like that must have been a mismatch, you know, against Giannis, it feels like he can go toe to toe against the young boys in Boston. He was going toe to toe with them too. And I think that's kind of his legacy when it matters. He rises to the occasion, a little like Dave Jacoby. That's, that's That's how I feel about you and pickup. Same thing. But I do think that's a skill, man. And it's almost like you have to think of other sports. There's been baseball guys that have been like this, right? Like Schilling was like this. Schilling was a really good pitcher, but in the postseason was better. And maybe that's the way to think of it. But

I didn't expect him to have him on my legacy card, Jacoby, because you think like going to the playoffs, there were all these storylines we had. And I thought I was the last one to shut the lights and close the door with the heat. I had the lights on and the heat running the whole season, zombie heat, watch out. I know they're lingering lingering even i like i i locked the doors i turned the lights off i turned the heat off i put the alarm on i was out i was the last one out and in two weeks they flipped it last year when they played the hawks in the playoffs they just completely outsmarted that team and made trey young look like a child and in that playing game i was like oh this is going to

be the heat are going to blow them out when i saw that playing game against the hawks i was i was with you i was under the covers under the bed all the lights are off the heat are done but not only did we bury them we covered the grave and grass is now fully grown on top of the grave there's no way they're coming back after that play-in game. So to sit here and celebrate Jimmy Butler the way we are, he was in that game too. You know what I mean? So that's the part with the Kawhi comparison.

I understand why you make it because that's sort of like square your shoulders, defense and offense. But there's a consistency to Kawhi that Jimmy Butler just doesn't have, which is what makes him more exciting. A consistency of not showing up three games into a series and just disappearing with medical issues? I mean, it's an all-timer.

They rested those two guys all season so that Kawhi could play two playoff games. Congratulations. But I had this opportunity with two of the great conspiracy theorists of our time, Bill Simmons and David Jacoby. Is there any possibility

that the Heat looking at because they had three possibilities. They could have played the Sixers. They could have played the Celtics and they could have played Milwaukee. Down the stretch like they were in control of their destiny and where they landed in that.

Is there any possibility they said, you know what? We want the bucks. The bucks are bitches. We can go take the bucks, lunch money, the bucks out of all those teams.

Is that a possibility? I will say this watching that game yesterday. And I went to the Laker game yesterday. So I literally didn't watch the heat game till this morning, which was actually more fun. Cause I, well, I was expecting something

in my head and it was the opposite. The Bucs were just up by 10 the whole game. They were better. And then in a flip, it switched and Coach Bud, I don't know what he was doing. It was like a 12-0 run, 13-0 run. He was just standing there enjoying it with the rest of us.

But I did wonder, watching it, is the losing hero actually not that bad for them us. But I did wonder watching it, is the hero losing hero actually not that bad for them? Because all it did was it just put the ball in Butler's hands and Bam's hands the whole time. And then everybody else kind of knew who they were. You know, where his hero, you got to get him involved. He might get hot. He takes over a half a quarter. I know he's better than everyone else in that team, But the team they had around it and the fact that Duncan Robinson, zombie Duncan got revived, right? He has like Max Drew's right arm he's using now. He like grabbed something. But the team kind of made sense watching it. It was the first time I've watched them all year where I'm like, all right, this is who they are. Ball flows through Butler

and Bam and everybody else, the role player. Kyle Lowry's just diving under people and stuff. If I'm the Bucs and I watched that last, especially the fourth quarter carefully, I liked all the shots they got. Giannis missed a little eight-foot jump hook. He missed his little lefty running layup that he always makes. Middleton missed

a couple wide-open shots that I thought were good. Drew made one, missed one, but for the most part, I like the shots I got. So if I'm them, Jacobes, I'm thinking like, all right, fluke game. Butler's like a 33% three-point shooter. He made some threes. We missed some shots we usually make.

We were up. We relaxed. We still have this series. And yet I think the Heat are going to be really hard to beat three times in a row. There's too much variance with them. If you look at all the 3-1 series, the Knicks and the Heat are the only sort of like live ones as we tape this right now. And I would say that the Heat, I would say, are on the pun intended, the hottest seat when it comes to teams that are up right now

in this moment, 3-1. Because1 because the bucks were just better in that game like it it took like a herculean mythical task for jimmy but from jimmy butler in the end of that game to win it and like the janice turned into the steve nash he's like throwing no look passes and stuff like i don't know what that was right yeah it was like where did this where did janice start throwing no look passes he's just like spraying the ball all over to open shooters and and lopez underneath the bucket. Like this, you can see a world in which they get blown out in game five. Like they got blown out in game two,

you know, Miami's goes down to the wire and guess what? Jimmy Butler might miss the three. Like he did against the Celtics last year. And then you're on the road in game seven. I can see a world in which the bucks end up getting through this series. And that's rarely the case in a three one two. So I agree with Jacoby's assessment there,

but I think the Bucs are in trouble, and it's for a couple of different reasons. In the first place, the Bucs' vulnerability over the course of the season was defending the three. The Heat were one of the three worst teams in the entire NBA shooting the three. Now, magically, over these four games, they all of a sudden could shoot.

They're leading the entire playoffs in offense. They were the 25th team in offense entering the playoffs. They're first right now, number one in offense. And part of it, I'm not knocking. This is not, uh,

for the purposes of slandering drew holiday, but he is this, the is the tip of the spear. He's defended Jimmy Butler as the primary defender on 173 possessions thus far, and Jimmy Butler is shooting 56% and has 49 points with Drew Holiday as his primary defender. The Bucs aren't defending the way the Bucs need to defend. Now, they can change it and

it can be I agree with Jacoby's sake I honestly think the Bucs are going to absolutely decimate the heat uh tomorrow night Wednesday night um but you know I I don't like the formula and the point about Harrow being out uh you know the another guy stepping up um uh Caleb Martin Caleb Martin was sick last night. Right down the stretch. He was awesome. And Miami scored 30 points with six minutes left in the game. From six minutes to the end.

30 points in the second half of the fourth quarter. I mean, that's big time stuff. It's a chip on the shoulder, team. The Bucs are plus 110 on Fando to win this series, which I thought was interesting. I'm glad you brought up the holiday thing. Because to me, some of the issues with the Bucs are plus 110 on Fando to win the series, which I thought was interesting. I'm glad you brought up the holiday thing. Because to me, some of the issues with the Bucs, and again, I like the shots they're getting offensively,

but there's strategy stuff with them that I just don't understand. Like you mentioned Drew Holiday has been guarding Butler the whole time. Why? You have Giannis. Well, they only have Giannis back. Yeah.

Well, they had him for game one, too. Put Giannis on Butler. Like, take out Butler or at least make him have to work with Giannis. The thing that shocked me yesterday, especially in the second half, was how easily he was going by Middleton. Because I think Middleton a couple years ago, I wouldn't say he was like an all-defense defender, but he was a good above-average defender.

And now he can't stay in front of anybody. You go on down the line, every single one of those swings is washed up. Like the three of us, like we can't that like Jay Crowder angles, like none of those guys can stay in front of them. So it kind of feels like it has to be honest. And in general,

like, I don't know, man, Butler, he just seemed like he, he was having a free reign yesterday. Even like there were plays when he would drive and kick out to somebody who was wide open. Jacobs, I was looking back at the Butler, kind of the arc of him. It's not an arc. It's a roller coaster. It's a roller coaster. A roller coaster. Let's call it a roller coaster. My bad.

With loops, twists. roller coaster my bad um 2007 twists well three trades 2017 traded with justin patton to minnesota for chris dunn zach levine and laurie marketing action-packed trade that was levine and marketing yeah you look back on paper like chris dunn was kind of i think the prize of that trade because he'd been the fifth pick. And then it was like, Levine's the prize. Now it's like, whoa,

marketing was in that. 2018, when Minnesota had to dump him, all of a sudden that became, he got traded with Justin Patton again in the Sixers for Jared Bayless, Robert Covington, Dario Saric,

and a second round pick. Wow. And he was an expiring contract that year. But then here's the one that, I think I forgot how mad this made me. So he decides he wants to sign with Miami. Miami doesn't have the cap space for him. Miami's like, well, we need help from Philly

and maybe some other teams. So they end up, they make a four-team trade. Miami sends their 2023 ladder-protected first rounder, the Clippers. They send Hassan Whiteside, who if you remember had a horrible contract, to Portland. Portland's like, we'll take him. Portland trades Moe Harkless to the Clippers. Clippers is like, great, we got Moe Harkless and a first round pick. And then Portland trades Myers Leonard to Miami and Miami trades Josh Richardson to Philly. And that created the Myers Leonard to Miami and Miami trades Josh Richardson

to Philly. And that created the cap space for Jimmy Butler. That's fucking insane. Miami gets Jimmy Butler. Everyone else gets Josh Richardson, Hassan Whiteside, Moe Harquist, Myers Leonard. I remember how highly I thought of Josh Richardson in that moment. I was like, he's going to be

a real difference maker. I was like, oh, good trade for Philly. Richardson, he's gonna be a real difference maker it's gonna be great yeah yeah hassan white side was acting very strange around that trade too if you remember some of his behaviors the the truly amazing thing about that trade go to any person in your life that's from philly and and ask them about that. Yeah, they go nuts. Even in the moment, they understood that Brett Brown and the Philly organization was siding with Ben Simmons. It seemed like Ben Simmons and Jimmy Butler couldn't coexist, and so the trajectory of Ben Simmons won out over Jimmy Butler, and every Philly fan was like, these sons of bitches.

They all understood that Jimmy Butler's got that dog in them. And they watched it in the playoffs, and he was the primary reason, and he made Joel so much better. And even to this minute, any Philly fan in your life, ask them about Jimmy Buckets on Philly and leaving Philly for Miami and that wager that Philly made on Ben Simmons.

Well, and I misspoke earlier. I said they lost to Miami. I meant Toronto before. But in that seven-game series against Kauai, I forgot that Embiid kind of sucked in the series. He shot 37% in a seven-game series against Toronto. He put up 17-9. Ben Simmons, he averaged 12-7.

Congratulations. And Tobias was 14-9. Butler was 22-7-6 and was playing big minutes. He played, shit, almost 39 minutes a game in that series. But Embiid was a little further away, I think, now when we think about that whole series. And he was sad when Kawhi made it. But he wasn't even close to the guy he is now. But I also think with Butler, he had just tanked it in Chicago. He had tanked it in Minnesota

where he was a real problem. And I think the feeling was that he was never going to turn into this, which is why it just historically, it's so hard to find normal comps to this, whereas somebody who kind of peaks as a player in their late, late twenties, early thirties becomes their prime. Like Isaiah Thomas. I was looking at Isaiah Thomas's stats the other day, the Detroit Isaiah Thomas,

the hall of famer. His career was over by the time he was 29. Like they're in the 1991 playoffs. He's 29. And that's like the end of the P of Famer. His career was over by the time he was 29. They're in the 1991 playoffs. He's 29, and that's like the end of the Pistons run. He's not even 30 yet. You know, what's funny, he's playing with a guy in Kyle Lowry who kind of

fits what you're describing. Kyle Lowry never made any teams. All NBA, all-star, nothing until they got around to being 30, and he was a crucial element to that title with Kawhi. Well, Jacobs, I don't know what to make of ages anymore because I went to, and we'll come back at the end to this Milwaukee-Miami series.

I went to the LeBron game last night. Actually, let's take a break because I'm going to talk about that. What does possible sound like for your business? It's having the spend that powers your scale with no preset spending limit. More cash on hand to grow your business with up to 55 interest-free days and the ability to reach further with access to over 1400 airport lounges worldwide. Redefine possible with Business Platinum. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. All right, Jacobus, I went to the LeBron game last night, game four. They beat Memphis in overtime. So fascinating to watch him in person at this stage of his career.

The first quarter, we're just watching him. And he's just saving energy every step of the way. It's like watching somebody on like some hiking Mount Everest, just figuring out little times to stop and have some nuts and berries, maybe take a pee in the woods. He's just basically running into the corner and just stopping and doesn't move. Or he comes back, he's on defense, he's guarding David Rod in the corner, and he's just like, I'm not moving. And we're like, this is really interesting. It's like watching this fucking genius just figure out like, all right, any calorie I can save, I need it for later. And then when they started needing him, because Davis

was an absolute stiff in the game. He just was awful. It was worse in person, watching him split second late, being super lazy on stuff, and LeBron just kind of sneaking in those side-eyed looks that our wives give us when we leave shit in the sink.

He's just side-eyeing him over and over again. And then LeBron's like, all right, fuck this. I'm going to get the rebound. And then he activated the calorie thing and went into aggro mode. And it was unbelievable. Honestly, like year 20, age 38, you just shouldn't have that kind of energy. And then last thing, Jacobus, the layup that he hit. I just, those layups are impossible. Those running to the right, Jaron Jackson, and I was sitting on the side where LeBron, where he was doing, was shooting layup from.

And we saw Jackson coming over like a fucking shark from Jaws, right? And it's like, I was going to block that. And LeBron's going full speed, bouncing off Tillman and lofts it into the air. And it just kind of melts off the backboard and goes in. I'm like, that's like the fucking hardest shot in basketball and he just made it easy with the second left. All right, that's my LeBron monologue. A couple of things on that.

Shout to Fairway Rolling, Joe House, prolific golfer. When I golf, I just try not to hit in the woods, right? I'm just like, I just don't want to hit in the woods. I just want to go forward. I want to be able to find the ball, right? But LeBron is like a golfer. Like, oh, this I golf, I just try not to hit in the woods. Right. I'm just like, I just don't want to hit in the woods. I just want to go forward. I want to be able to find the ball. Right. But LeBron is like a golfer. Like, oh, this one needs a little fade.

I'm gonna put a little spin on this. Like he's just doing it on a different level. He's, he's sort of reading the room and saying, who do I need to morph into tonight to will my team to a victory? Do I need to score 35? Do I need to shoot? Do I need to get other people going? Do I have ad to play with today?

And like, you can see like he's discovered. Which is always a question. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. He knows early. Is AD showing up today? We knew in the first two minutes.

We're like, no, we don't have AD today. You could tell two minutes in. You can always tell. You can always tell. And he discovered Austin Reeves. He's like, oh, wait, this white dude could create. He's like, oh, I could take some possessions off and just let Austin Reeves cook? That's amazing.

And on that last shot, Jared Jackson Jr. is a defensive player of the year for a reason. And he got over there pretty early. You know what I mean? He was prepared to contest that shot, and LeBron was prepared for him to do it. And you see Dylan Brooks, he kind of hedged.

He kind of fainted at lebron he needs to commit to lebron and help tillman like it's you can't let freight train lebron go down the middle of the lane like that when you're up by his right hand in the waning seconds with his right hand like you just can't let him do that but there's one yeah i like that you said the side eye thing about ad because you can feel the energy like when lebron hit that one on brooks to the left side he went back to his right like that kind of like the clincher with the N1 he does the flex and scream

and then AD also does the flex and scream and you can see LeBron look at him be like you can't flex and scream bro no flexing and screaming for you Anthony Davis for at least 20 this is my flex and scream not your flex Anthony Davis. You got at least 20. You're two tippins in 50 minutes.

This is my flex and scream, not your flex and scream. And you'll notice he kind of put his back towards him as he flexed and screamed. I'm glad you mentioned the AD thing because you could tell so early whether or not he's there. And if he's not there, he just never regains it. I've never seen him have a bad first half. I'm like, oh, look, he dropped 25 and 10 in the

second half. He caught fire. I went with fantasy and CR and we sniffed it out. The game had barely started. We were like, look, you dropped 25 and 10 in the second half. He caught fire. I went with fantasy and CR and we, we sniffed it out. The game had barely started. We were like, ah, Davis is asleep. This game that I had, uh, I won't say who, but I had a friend who sat next to the Laker bench for a game this season and was like, does LeBron like Davis? Was this question leaving the game? And I think they do have like a, there's a little big brother,

little brother thing, but it's not like it's when the big brother is like five years older than the little brother and just is constantly annoyed and frustrated. And the little brother is just trying to win his approval the whole time. House. The thing with LeBron, I thought last night was, it looked a little like Tom Brady,

late 2010 playoff game, late 2010s playoff game-ish, where he's just been in the situation so many times. He knows exactly when to exert himself, when to pull back, how to conserve his energy, when to peak. Because the thing is, the thing I loved about the game yesterday,

I really loved being there for it. He didn't shoot that well. It wasn't like he had like an awesome LeBron game. So he kind of audibled. He's like, all right, here's what we need this game yesterday. I really loved being there for it. He didn't shoot that well. It wasn't like he had like an awesome LeBron game. So he kind of audible. It's like, all right, here's what we need this game up. My shots aren't really going in. Um, I'm going to get us a bunch of rebounds. I'm going to challenge shots. I'm going to try to push the pace when we need it. And he just was like a different version of himself. I, it was the kind of game I don't think he could have played 10 years ago. Because I, I just don't think he had the physicality that he has now.

I want to say this about that performance last night and kind of the luxury of having Anthony Davis. There's been a lot of AD slander thus far on this podcast. Deserve it. But remember, remember, AD got them to this spot. LeBron couldn't play down the stretch AD took his game to that next next next level that he had to do to drag this team to get them A into the play-in

and B into the spot where they only had to win one game to clinch the 7th seed and clinching that 7th seed put them in the absolute very best position going up against this Memphis team without any like real inside help because of the injury to Clark and where Steven Adams is at. And I mean, as this thing was lining up, I kept,

cause I, I liked Grizzlies this year. They're there 35 and six at home coming into the playoffs. Bad luck. Bad luck. That's all you can say. Shaw had his issues though. Yeah.

They lose Clarkark they lose adams sometimes it's not your year jacobs well i remember speaking with the two of you on this very podcast and just celebrating the work of vanderbilt and bando and how important his addition was and last night more than any other game in the series is his his fingerprints were all over that one. He can just switch on to people. He can rebound. He can contest shots. Hit shots when you want him to, but you don't

really need him to. He carried him a couple times. You know where his fingerprints weren't, though? In crunch time when Darvin Ham played really hot tomorrow over him for the last 10 minutes of the game. As everyone in the stands was like, what's going on? Why is he out there? He was, uh, he was pretty bad.

You know, the, the, uh, I'm going to make a talking head point. So I apologize in advance. I don't know if you want me to get the hands going. Yeah, it's exciting. Last night. And I've been to a few Laker games with LeBron, and he's been on this team five years, and I went to the scoring record game, and that was the first time he kind of felt like a Laker, but it wasn't 100% there. Last night, he felt like a Laker, and he felt like he belonged to

the franchise and the whole thing, and there was some real. Like if you look around at those games, you know, who's who the most jerseys are, it's still Kobe. And you, you know, we were in a Spotify suite, so we could look down. I was, I always like to look and see what the jerseys are. And there was a couple D-Los, which I was like, Whoa, couple D-Los. I can't say they were a shitload of AD jerseys. I don't know if he's really caught on. There was some old magics, some vintage magics, but it was mostly Kobe's, but there were some LeBron's. But I just feel like

because he got robbed of the bubble because there were no home games that year and then the other seasons, whatever, this is like his first chance to really feel it. House is nodding. It's his first chance to really feel like a Laker.

This is a great talking head point. A great talking head point from you bill because it's based on nothing you just completely pulled out of thin air how do i disagree with you i can't even counter it because it's based on absolutely nothing at all but a feel you had by being in the arena. And that is why I want to applaud this as a great debate take. There's no way to counter it. Thank you. I can't. I have nothing. To be fair, it is the first real playoff games with the real team.

It's really their championship parade celebration, right? Because they didn't get to the playoffs last year. So this is it. This is them celebrating with a team that's competitive in front of the the home court so i i'm not that surprised to hear that yeah we could be heading toward maybe he maybe it's a laker hat and all fame for him who knows or laker jersey what do they wear jerseys i don't even know i have a question for you bill yeah what's going on with John Morant and his injury?

Because his hand was hurt, and then he really double hurt his hand, and now he's got it wrapped, but he's still just, like, running around like a crazy. Like, if you watch that last bucket, the one he scored over Tillman and Jaron Jackson Jr., John Morant jumps up to go over Anthony Davis' back. It was like the weirdest, most reckless thing. And I believe his hand is truly hurt. How is he hitting threes?

How is he dunking the ball? How is he still playing with the same reckless abandon? Some of those threes are going sideways. I'm with you. I went with Fantasy and Chris a couple times during the game. When you can see what he's going to do, cause you can see the far away angle and it's like, Oh no, don't do that. And he's just like jumping into seven guys, um, with a bad hand that if he lands incorrectly, it could be terrible for him. And he's really, he, I gotta say like, I've only seen him maybe three times in person.

He's just about it. The most exciting open for guy that I can remember. It's like, even at the end when they get that, and then it gave four, they got that, uh, that steel and he's just coming down and it's Reeves. And it was like,

you could have told me he was going to like throw the ball off the shot clock and dunk, dunk the rebound. Like anything was possible. Um, I listen, we have to bring conspiracypiracy Bill in here. This worked out unbelievable for the NBA.

Memphis, just a bunch of injuries, then Jock gets hurt. That's round one. Now we go to round two. The Kings are going to beat the Warriors. I really think they would have. All of a sudden, Darren Fox, I don't know if Adam Silver slammed the door on his finger or what happened. I still don't know how he got

hurt. I don't remember the play. Maybe it was Mike Bass, the head of NBA comms, just, John, can I see you for a second? Just grabbed him. I just want you to meet somebody, John. It's like a professional wrestler. Why don't you meet somebody, Darren? like a professional wrestler just raise his hand I want you to meet somebody

Aaron yeah so now they have Lakers Warriors round two which means they're guaranteed one of those two teams I don't think Memphis is going to come back

and I don't think the Kings unless Fox can tape the fingers together and do the 1984 Bernard but Bernard had dislocated fingers he didn't have broken fingers but

so you get Warriors and you get Lakers and the winner plays either Denver or Phoenix and you can't lose either way. Like I don't, I honestly don't even know what story is more compelling, like the end of the Warriors run or LeBron trying to get a fifth. I guess it would be LeBron because the history, even the King versus the Kings is nice. You know what I mean?

Even that, which I thought will happen as well. The King versus the Kings has a nice, well, then you get the O2. They, the league doesn't want that. They don't want the Kings is nice. You know what I mean? Even that, which I doubt will happen as well. The King versus the Kings has a nice... Well, then you get the O2. The league doesn't want that. They don't want the O2 videos. They don't want to see those videos. But I'm telling you, Steph against LeBron, LeBron against Draymond.

Just the whole thing is just... I think that's the biggest possible series we could have since the 2010 Lakers Celtics. Because even when the Warriors went against the Cavs during those four years in a row, it never felt like the teams were even except for 2016. But in 2016, we didn't have the history of the Warriors yet. Now we do. And Curry and LeBron are the most famous players of the century. And on top of it, each guy has four rings

and they've kind of natural rivals, even though they aren't. House, what's a bigger series for you in this century? I mean, maybe the two Lakers Celtics? What else? Anything? No, that's it. Last year was, you know, the interesting. I mean, the Celtics, you know, the legacy of the Celtics up against that Golden State. That was a good one, yeah.

That's the only one that's even in the ballpark, I would say, just because of the history with Boston. I don't think people had the history yet with Tatum and Brown. No, for sure. The Curry-LeBron thing goes even deeper than the teams because I do think people are either Curry guys or LeBron guys in some way. I mean, Curry's like my favorite non-Celtic. I've talked about that in the pod before.

I'm always going to kind of veer toward Curry. But as House knows, I'm going to actually veer toward who the better bet is for the series and root for that team. Jacobes, Curry versus LeBron, round two, which seems conceivable now, amazingly. Where do you sit? Who are you going to root for? What storyline fascinates you most? Give us your take.

I cannot root against LeBron James. I just can't. You know, I'm a die-easy fan. I grew up a Celtics fan. I don't even care anymore about the Celtics at all. I switch allegiances easily. I know this is like, you're not supposed to do this. I just follow my heart

and my heart is always rooting for LeBron James at all times and I will root for him. When you mentioned, I would say the best series are probably those Cavs Warriors series, back to back to back to back. But the thing about it is there was an inevitability to those series where in October, I knew what I was going to be watching in the NBA finals. And this just is so surprising and like sort of magical, especially with the Warriors being down 0-2 and Draymond being out in game three.

And with the Lakers being like, I don't know, like 13th in the Western conference, like, you know, around the trade deadline, like it's, there's, there's like, there's like a,

a nice surprise to this. I'm like, I, I walked in to like dinner reservations and like everyone from my history was there in a room, you know what I mean? It's like, Oh,

Hey, Oh, I didn't know we were doing this. My birthday was two months ago. You know what I mean? Like that's the part that I'm going to really savor about this one. And just from like a, a media perspective with the rights coming up and like the ratings on this thing like it this

will stop the nation for people to watch this series hard hard hard hard hard ticket too it's one of the great things about where we're headed for round two is all the scenarios are pretty fun like even if the kings hold off the Warriors, Kings-Lakers is still amazing. The Kings fans, the single most traumatic thing that ever happened to any of them by far from a sports standpoint is that 0-2 series.

To have the chance to have revenge on that, LeBron, and the whole thing, but to get past the Warriors somehow with De'Aaron Hurt and then the Lakers looming. Also, the fact that this Lakers, I actually feel like I haven't thought about it enough, how improbable it is. When we went from thinking that they were going to give New Orleans the Wimbanyama pick to could they even, then LeBron gets hurt. It's like, oh, they're done.

I mean, we poured dirt on them like seven times already this season. So I don't know. After what I watched last night, I'll believe anything from LeBron. That was fucking unbelievable. It's really, you know, I'm never putting anyone over Jordan, but he is going to lock down best career ever, I think, coming out of this. Just the 20-year run of a career. I just think if you could say ceiling, you could go with somebody else,

but it's him or Kareem for best career. And I think Kareem couldn't have done this in year 20, I don't think, House. Yeah, I totally agree. And I'm glad that you said Kareem. Bald Kareem couldn't have done this. He was good. He was an asset. I would have said Kareem.

I'm glad that we got it out there. It's funny when Jacoby started saying I can't root against I was positive he was going to say Steph Curry because that's where I am on that matchup I mean I absolutely adore you both of you can root against well you Simmons you rooted against Steph Curry

in all of the finals last year yeah it sucked I hated it yeah so I cannot and will not and do not root against Steph Curry. And I'm, I would be rooting for the warriors. I always want the defending champ to, to,

to like get taken out by a, by a true, like, you know, counterparty. And, and I, I'm not sure the,

this version of the Lakers. I mean, we basically had this version of the Lakers for, what, 25 games now? Congratulations. Well, that's the other thing. This could be the highlight right here. This could be the peak where we'll be like,

oh, man, remember that LeBron overtime game when it seemed like the Lakers might make the finals? Then Davis had a hip flexor. You know, the injury stuff with them, especially we've already had a bunch of injuries this year. It's 50-50. What would be cool about the round two Lakers Warriors is

how even the teams are. I don't even know who FanDuel would have favored in that series. Honestly, I don't. Oh, we talked about this on East Coast Bias today. We came up with Warriors minus 130, minus 125. Do they have the home

court advantage? Yes, they do. Yeah. I think it's like seven and the Warriors are coming in. The Warriors were six. I think it's like Warriors minus 120 Lakers even because they got to factor in the LeBron money too.

Speaking of amazing subplots, Jacob's the Knickerbockers of New York. Yes. Yes. Talked about it some on Sunday. I don't want to rehash it too much, but you're in New York. What's the buzz? What's the scene?

What's the word? Are there Brunson jerseys? What's happening? Every subway car I get on, I've been looking, there's at least three or four pieces of Nick paraphernalia it's it's absolutely I've never seen in in the 21st century I've never seen the city this excited about a team and that includes all the Carmelo teams you know like in the previous iteration from a couple years ago like it's the the the Brunson of it all like Julius, Julius Randle has been pretty bad.

You know? Like, he's been pretty bad. Quickly has not really shown up at all. And it's just Brunson and tough defense and Mitchell Robinson and my guy Isaiah Hartenstein. Like, there's a real belief. And I think going into the week in that Friday night game, I think most Knicks fans were a little nervous and scared.

Like, this weekend could go bad. We saw it happen against the Hawks. The fact that it went the way it did for Friday and Sunday has rejuvenated the belief in this team and this city because when they're down by 10, I'm like, oh shit, the Knicks are down by 10. But when they're up by 10, I'm like, oh shit, the Knicks are up by 10. You just never feel good about them.

And to get through a weekend with this team, withandall sitting the fourth and i quickly like not even scoring is just kind of just feels like pun intended house money house yeah i love it well i mean the randall thing i'll i'll go ahead and be an apologist he is still hurt like i don't think he's moving fantastic i'll give him a little bit of a bailout. And kudos to Tibbs. Plus, he's such a great playoff history. So you got to... He's got a great attitude, too. Great team player.

He's got a resting bitch face. It's not his fault. The body language doctor needs to do a full diagnosis of Julius Randle. The extreme makeover of his body language. Sorry, House. We interrupted you. No, all I was going to say is

you got to give Tibbs credit for that. Tibbs understands that better than anybody. And the success of the team, he's managed to minimize the bitchiness, right? The pettiness. And let Brunson be the alpha and let Randall see Brunson be the alpha and go along with the idea that Brunson's the alpha because Brunson's the effing alpha. And the thing that has really been the reason that to me as an outsider that this next team makes so much sense for new york city it's a tough guy team that's a team and they are they're bullying the the

cavaliers like coming in you know there was a a vibrant argument around vigorous debate around, you know, the, the Cleveland big guys, will they control the, the Knicks win every tough guy category. They win the rebounding. They,

they get to the free throw line. They, they, they been good on the turnovers and these are locked down drag out. I mean, Cleveland can't score a hundred points. So, you know,

kudos to Tibbs and kudos to the Knicks. And kudos to JB Bickerstaff for helping the Knicks. Jacobes, if I gave you 10 to 1 odds on Knicks heat round two, if it happens, being swayed in some way by some sort of bench clearing altercation that ended up with a lot of suspensions. What would you put for odds for that? First of all, I need Jeff Van Gundy to be calling the game if that's going to happen. Just run out and have somebody grab his leg?

Yes, exactly. I want him to hop over the table and just get swept around by Isaiah Hartenstein's leg. That would make me so happy. There's so many aggro people in that series. It feels like there's something bad's gonna happen also like on that friday night game they had i think john starks was there latrell spreewell was there that's been great i love that like retired nick's theater's been great they're all like wearing like dinner jackets like i don't know what's going on but why is everybody dressed they go to like a

steakhouse a formal before this i loved about them, like really just bringing out the legends and having them be courtside there in the garden. I love everything about that. And it does bring back those old teams. I did, and I love Bernard King. And I feel like he could still put up at least like 12. You know, if they just sub him in. He'd have to take his jacket off.

But yeah, we give him 12. So kudos to Jimmy Dolan. He finally figured it out embrace the history i can't i refuse to give jimmy dolan anything i didn't know kudos man edit that out edit that out so rudy kyle edit that out we cannot have that you cannot you don't want that audio living on the internet bill come on people could change please he would let spike lee take his elevator come on you know you make some mistakes over a two decade stretch you learn some things i i refuse to go full like preview on nick's heat because i i i could see i could see it as bucks calves man like thought of mitchell's gonna score like 75 points in the game five i don't i want to i think calves are out.

I want to hear you, Bill, talk about the Mitchell psychology of it all. We know the history. We don't need to give you that. Going into this series, it's going to be a subplot. How's Mitchell going to react to a former suitor

in a seven-game series? He had the ball too much in game one, and it kind of paralyzed the rest of the team, it seemed like. So then they got Garland more involved in game two. And now it's like, it feels like they kind of don't know what to do because they're not getting anything from Moby and Allen. I think their only chance, actually, ironically,

is for Mitchell to just go like crazy usage rate. He just, it's me versus the Knicks basically. And everybody else is a supporting cast guy and I don't think that's going to work. Bill, can we talk about Moby a little bit because I know you love him so much. It hurts, man. I'm in a lot of pain. I have some Moby stock. I'm not selling.

I did call my broker and we talked about it. I'm sending you mine for free. I think you have to buy it for a penny. Come on. Don't do that. Offensively, I mean, I guess he's 21 years old. Fine. But offensively, he's just had no impact. None.

It's been tough. Well, why would he? These are kids. This is the issue with Cleveland. This is why when the odds came out at the beginning of this series and it was like 2-1 in favor of Cleveland, it's like, this is crazy. What has this team done? Who is this team? And it was the two to one in favor of Cleveland. It's like, this is crazy. What has this team done?

Who is this team? And it was the Donovan Mitchell. You know, we, we BS, you came on the East coast bias. We had this, this lively fight over this.

And even the argument about who's going to be the best player in the series, is it going to be Jalen Brunson or Donovan Mitchell? But part of my argument was, I didn't think they were going to have Randall for the first couple games. And I was like, they can't beat them without Randall. Ironically, they had

Randall. And he sucked. And the Knicks are still beating them. So I don't know what to think about that. The real culprit is the wing situation. And it all comes down to Karis Levert. No, the coach has been awful. That's true. The Knicks

went smaller. When the Knicks go small and they have the. LeVert Osmond is the core role. When the Knicks go small and they have the two bigs out there, but neither of the two bigs have a post-up game, what the fuck is the point of having two bigs? It's not like Jared Allen's like, ah, I'm going to cook so-and-so. A quick Brunson point.

We're all retired pickup basketball players. I think part of the magic with Brunson is he's that guy you fucking hated when he was on the other team. That herky-jerky like, oh, fucking A, this guy. Yeah, no, you got him.

No, I fucking covered him last game. I'm not doing it again. Jesus, I was going to do that herky-jerky thing. You just picked someone else. I need help if he's going to do this. I got him. I got him. You pick someone else very early as we're checking out the ball. I'm covering if he's gonna do this. I got him. I got him. You pick someone else

very early as we're checking out the ball. I'm covering him, not Jalen Brunson. It's somehow more embarrassing than just having somebody just zip by you like John Morant. Oh, John Morant went by me. He's a higher athletic species to me. Brunson's like, he's not a better athlete than me.

How is he just torching me? I know what move he's going to do. He did it again. I'm watching with my nine-year-old, and I'm like, see that little dude? He's the best player on the court. And he's like, no. I'm like, just watch. It's like explaining it to an alien.

It's like, see all those big guys, those big strong guys? No, no, no. That little dude right there with the braids is going to cook everyone. Just wait. He won't fully believe it until he sees it on TikTok. Your son or Roblox. I have Ben Simmons. I get my son.

I came home yesterday. I'm like, you watch the Laker game. And he's like, I saw the ending on TikTok. I'm like, what this generation's done. Wednesday is one of the better NBA playoff days I can remember. Knicks, Cavs, Lakers, Gririzzlies, Heat-Bucks, Warriors-Kings. That is just an absolute assault. And then they have, you know, the game's a little bit staggered.

So it starts with Knicks-Cavs, Lakers-Grizz starts a half hour later. And it's just going to be out of control. Plus the hockey playoffs going. One of the great days. This is a don't get divorced week. There's no question. You can, you can feel it in the air.

We didn't talk about the De'Aaron Fox injury, which happened after, I mean, we mentioned it, but I still feel like he's going to play and do okay. Am I crazy? Like, they'll just tape.

It's his index finger. They'll just tape. It's his index finger. If it was his thumb, I'd be like, no way. But index finger, I feel like he can get away with that. The only thing that's a bummer is his index finger on the shooting hand. And you guys know that's a touch injury. So how can you... How can they tape it in a way?

He's definitely playing. I can't imagine a world in which he flat out wouldn't play. Can they use him as a decoy? And then we'll see, you know, the miracle of modern medicine. Because your point about Ja, Ja looked like he broke his wrist. And it was on a hand that was already injured. Twice. And yet Ja is out there dropping 22 straight points in the fourth quarter.

So maybe there's something with Fox. And the true wild card for the Kings is Herter. We haven't seen him yet. Who? Right. He's on the Kings, right? Red Mamba. He's on the Kings?

Red Mamba, too. The Red Velvet? Red Velvet? If he comes out and has a game, look, he comes home. And Jacoby, you can speak to this. The Kings crowd nurtures him. If he makes his first shot, think about what the Knicks crowd did for RJ. How they propped up RJ, right?

They brought him back to life. Couldn't hurt her if he makes his first shot and the crowd gets right behind him there in Sacramento. I really think he's, he's the potential to swing the series. Oh God. I love her so much. There's listen, I'm just going to say it.

I love American born white NBA basketball players. I know it's 2023. I'm not supposed to say this, right? I just love American born Caucasian NBA basketball players, especially not like the zeller brothers and the plumblies like athletic ones like tyler hero and kevin herder like those are that that's my niche right there and i've always been a herder fan he's also from new york he's from albany which

is not really new york but whatever we'll take it but i was so excited about how what he has done this season but to turn in a playoff performance like this, he has just disappeared. He really has. And, and again, I like, I like, and you said you can relate to this Chico because you know, I'm a mentally weak basketball player.

I like, first of all, that was an insult, but you didn't really, didn't read like an insult. It was totally an insult. The next to RJ. The next to RJ.

You've been watching how that crowd wrote, brought RJ back to life. They did. And I do feel like that, especially with Darren Fox, I think he's going to play like you do, Bill, but I don't think he'll be 100%. And I know he hit that three over Draymond,

but I don't know how. Like, I can't imagine he's going to be shooting jump shots. They're going to need someone to and Herter's that guy. Jacoby would have been such a fun NBA player. They just would have talked about it at halftime and it's like,

yeah, I got houses sir jersey once or did you get it yeah Jacoby that's right Jacoby's talking about a certain a certain player game on baby Bobby sir what a run he had his body just couldn't hold up when you walk amongst the gods

athletically it can't totally happen any before we go any other subplots that you're loving from the playoffs, Jacobes? Any off-the-court stuff? Anything in your domain? A couple things. Number one question for you, Bill.

What happened with Emei Udoka in Boston? I know you know. He's in the news. I know you know what happened because none of this adds up. I know you know what happened. Because none of this adds up. I know you know, Bill. Whether you're going to say it in the microphone or you're going to call me after the pod, I need to know what happened

with Ime Udoka in Boston because none of this adds up whatsoever. Well, how about this part? Why take the Houston job? Why the Houston job? Who knows? The Cleveland job might become available. Milwaukee? What if Milwaukee becomes available because they lose to the Heat in five?

Do you want to develop Sengoon for four more years? Like, what are you doing? What if they get Wembeana? I want to know that, but can I find that out before I take the job? Yeah. It's like when Rick Pitino took the Celtic job before the lottery and then we didn't get Duncan. We got three and six instead? Isn't it win-win for eBay down in Houston?

Nobody has any expectations. He could be flying under the radar. Well, maybe that's why he did it, but I think Cleveland would have been... If that Cleveland job becomes open... Tell us what happened. What else do you have, Jacobs?

Go back into your go back into your arsenal okay um james harden right we haven't talked about the sixers too much right now he's been supplanted by maxi is like the second most important person on the team right yeah i love maxi just the joy that he plays with there was a picture i saw on twitter today of little baby the rapper close friend of james, hanging out with Khloe Kardashian, ex of James Harden. Do you think a fractured relationship with Lil Baby will affect James Harden in a potential series against the Celtics? I would say his declining health and his condition of his legs would be probably a bigger obstacle. You think there'll be other fractions?

Yeah, it does feel like a possible off-field. What do you think, Alex? I mean, it's what you just described. He can't move. He can't get to the free throw line. He's missing shots inside the paint. It's a bummer because I thought this Celtics-Sixers matchup potentially determining the NBA champion,

because I still think that the NBA champ is coming from the East. It ain't going to be the Bucs now. In fact, that's the biggest hedge of my life is going to be tomorrow night, the Bucs laying 11 at home against the Heat. I have to make back all of my Milwaukee futures. I'm going to lose every Milwaukee future

because they're going to get bounced in this stupid first round because Giannis missed a game and a half. The odds are crazy now, by the way. The Celtics are plus 195 to win the title. We did the ringer. We did our odds machine today, and the Knicks had the second best percentages

out of anyone to win the title. What machine was that? I don't know. I'm taking it for repairs. That was broken. The Lakers are 14-1, and that almost seems too high. It does. The Knicks are 31-1.

That almost seems too high. I don't know. I don't know how you bet on any of this stuff. House, I don't know. I don't know how you bet on any of this stuff. House, I'm with you. I have that Milwaukee-Denver bet for before the season at 33 to one. So it could go the other way too, where they could just lay the smack down,

win the last three. I'm like, oh man, this was great for Milwaukee. They really found out who they were, all that stuff. I really worry about them athletically against wings. I don't think they can guard wings. The Celtics, they did this to them in the regular season. Those guys torched them. You know I always pay attention to the zeitgeist and sports media and

the discussions and the narratives. Yeah. Okay. Imagine a world in which the Nuggets win the NBA championship and literally no one discusses them for the first month of the playoffs. I haven't seen a lower third on a single sports television show that has anything to do with the Nuggets in it in the past two weeks not a not a sick like the number one seed in the west cruising through their first round series but here we are being like imagine

if the Kings and LeBron faced off in round two. Right. This is insane. This is absolutely insane. Sunday night, he had a 43-12-6. They were down, what, 14 or 12, and he assisted or scored on all the baskets that tied the game in the overtime. And it was like the 19th most important story. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, did you, Russell and I did this thing about

PVSD, postSD post voting stress disorder of things we regret, like votes we regret and things like that. And, uh, you know, Mobley for defensive player of the year. I, I did my process. That's where I landed. But then after watching Draymond on Sunday guard, everyone on the Kings, that was the other guy I was going to pick. I was like, oh my God, why didn't I pick Draymond? Do you have any PVSD with any of the outcomes so far?

Because Jokic would be the other one for me. Where I was like, man, this guy is the most impactful day-to-day guy in the league. And I got thrown off because they kind of eased up and then Embiid had some good games and now you're shaking your head, you coach. No, Embiid did not have some good games. Embiid was absolutely dominant. And the way that they just decided they were going to

run their offense through him at the nail at every single possession and the record that they had. And another thing is I'm not the person who's like, oh, well since Jokic won it last year, we have to isolate that and only consider this season. I'm a narrative guy. Embiid hasn't won.

Let's watch him win. I think he should have. I think one storyline that we haven't discussed yet is since when did punching and kicking people in the nuts become such a big part of NBA basketball? It seems like we can't go two or three nights without some sort of groin shot. And I've never,

I've been watching this sport for quite some time and I've never ever seen this be an issue. I don't remember it either. Do you remember it house? No, I, I, I feel like it had to have happened though, because we lived through so much physical basketball, but they just didn't hit each other in the nuts. Is that the deal? I don't remember. It's interesting how it's basically this small pool of players that seem to be the accidental nut punch offenders. Yeah. Right. I mean, Chris Paul is the all-time nut puncher, and you can go find a sizzle reel of his all-time classic nut punches.

You can. I mean, it exists on YouTube. I think it's like a 12-minute YouTube of him punching dudes in the nuts. But he's a one-of-one, it's a single singular skill that he possesses. But like across the board, so many dicks getting punched. You're so right. Jacobs. Let's go. Let's end with this. Then let's do a quick draft

next playoff nut punch. Draymond Green Draymond Green going first. I don't know if I'm going first, but I'll take you Draymond Green. So would you have second in the next playoff nut punch draft? I just mentioned him. He's the Hall of Famer.

I think he's going to punch Russell Westbrook right in the balls. A quick clarification. Hall of Fame basketball player or Hall of Fame nut puncher? Both. Both. I think poor Rusty's getting one. All right. I can't believe he's still on the board.

Kyle Lowry. Oh. Oh. Is it a snake draft? Because I'm going to tell my board. Kyle Lowry. Oh, oh, is it a snake draft? Because I'm going to tell my Brooks. Are you crazy? Oh, you got it. They're going to be down by 20 in like a closeout game.

And he's just good. He's just going to drop kick LeBron in the crotch. I can't wait. Two feet. How soon do you have? Who do you have with the fifth pick? I'm going to keep this bit going. Yeah, one more.

Give us one more name. Carl Anthony Towns. Or no, even better. Go Bear. Go Bear. Yes, I'll get one. I have I'll end the draft with Julius Randall just as like the playoff series spiraling out of control and he needs to act out and do something

to get out of the series for a game. I'm going to go. I got one more. I got one more. I'm going to bonus because he uses the ball as a weapon. He's going to use the ball to hit somebody in the balls because he uses the ball as a weapon. That counts. Ball, nut punch counts.

It's great. And Patrick Beverly, it's impossible for him to be in the playoffs, right? Because he's not on a team. What if he was like a sideline reporter for a game? As a spectator. He could definitely get somebody in the balls as a spectator. All right. Jacoby, great to see you.

House, great to see you. Listen to Jacoby on Food News on The Ringer. Listen to House on Ringer Gambling Show on Fairway Rolling. Am I invited on Ringer Gambling Show Friday? You are. We're dying for it because everything will be very ripe by then between the Wednesday and Thursday games. I feel like JJ

is flying a little too close to the sun with the success of all the New York teams right now and all the topics. I'm worried about him just going on. It's like when Roman on succession when too many good things happen and he snaps and has to send his dad a dick pic accidentally. JJ was adamant that we not talk about the next series.

He said, we still have unfinished business. We have to finish off this Cleveland team. He's adamant about it. So he's got his head in the right place. That's a veteran right there. There you go. All right.

Great to see you guys. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Danny Kelly, Ben Solak, Joe House, David Jacoby. Thanks to Kyle Creighton and Steve Cerruti for producing. Don't forget, new rewatchables went up on Monday night. Don't forget to check out the NFL Draft Guide on theringer.com.

I'm going to have to see you on this feed after round one of the draft on Thursday.