The Bill Simmons Podcast - NFL Draft Reactions, Angry Rodgers, Emcee Goodell, and Overcompetitive MJ With Cousin Sal and Chuck Klosterman  | The Bill Simmons Podcast

Episode Date: April 24, 2020

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Cousin Sal to recap the first round of the NFL draft, including Tua Tagovailoa sliding to the fifth, the Packers drafting QB Jordan Love, the Cowboys adding another WR in CeeDee Lamb, Goodell embracing the boos, and much more (2:03). Then Bill talks with author Chuck Klosterman about Episodes 1 and 2 of the ESPN documentary series 'The Last Dance' (55:30). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the BS podcast on the ringer podcast network brought to you by state farm, Scotty and Mike, Kobe and Shaq, LeBron and Wade. Just a few NBA duos that are undeniably the real deal. My favorite duo ever, Bird and McHale won a couple of titles with them. A little inside outside game. McHale is the most underrated low post score of all time. Uh, but everybody has their own favorite NBA duo. Draft a State Farm agent to your team and get help combining the ultimate duo, home and auto insurance when you want the real deal

like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. We're also brought to you by World Central Kitchen, their relief team, working across America to safely distribute individually packed fresh meals and communities

that need support. You can directly help the heroes in hospitals and clinics who are fighting for us. And you can help keep your local restaurants alive. Go to the ringer.com slash WCK to donate, please. I'm trying to raise 250,000. We'll see if we can do it. If you have the means, it's an unbelievably great and useful cause that helps our hospital heroes, emergency workers, and local restaurants, please give whatever you can. The money goes directly to World Central Kitchen. It's a charitable donation.

Once again, theringer.com slash WCK. If you love the NFL draft, I highly encourage you to go to theringer.com where Danny Kelly did his draft day grades, where Roger Sherman is probably going to be writing about the funniest moments. And there were a lot of them. And the Ringer NFL show as well.

They break down the draft right after. And there were a lot of them, uh, and the ringer NFL show as well. They break down the draft right after. And I think we're silos podcast. He, I think he has Chris long on, I don't want to jinx it, but he'll have a pod as well. So we will have plenty of football content for you coming up. Cousin Sal he's back. Remember that guy? And then Chuck Klosterman came on and talk about the Michael Jordan doc. So this is a fun pod.

First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, we're taping this. It is 9.15 Thursday night. My old friend Cousin Sal is here. We're staring at each other on Zoom. I'm so excited to talk about this draft, but first, let's go to Tom Rinaldi for a very sad story. Tom? Is that what he's doing?

I don't know. I just, it was such a happy night and it was just over and over again. It's like Tom Rinaldi as Debbie Datter. Like, hey, here's another really sad story. What happened to the draft?

When did it turn into this human interesting? Did you watch the 1989 draft a few days ago? Yeah, I watched a little of it. Yeah. Yeah. You know what's fun about that draft?

They just talked about football. That was good. You had tonight, you had the Green Bay takes a quarterback out of nowhere at 26. I wanted them to go first take for the next 20 minutes. I'm like, is this it for Rogers? Is he out on Green Bay? And instead they're like, let's go to so-and-so because something happened to him when he was a kid.

I don't know who this is for. Is this for my wife? It's not for us. I must have been numb to it because I was just so excited to see football back or some kind of sports or something after six weeks of nothing. I felt like, do you know when they show like those old people that like are able to see colors for the first time when they're like 75 years old and they get some like corrective surgery and then they put like a bouquet of flowers in front of them. That's how I felt. I'm like, oh my God, what am I looking at here?

This is great. This is how things used to be. And it wasn't bad except for, yes, they did. They did harp on a lot of the sad stuff. It just was way too human interest. There's so many great football plots going on here. And, uh, you know, as soon as there was this whole cowboy, well, I want to go through it one by one, but like even little stuff like CD lambs falling, all the cowboy fans are getting super

excited. All the Eagles fans are four spots later praying that the Cowboys don't take them and that he drops to the Eagles with a huge chip on his shoulder. And then twice a year he torches the, the Cowboys. And it was just, there's all this shit going on and they were just missing it left and right I thought it was amazing they did the a telecast with everyone on zoom like like kudos to them for the technology but I wanted more football talk and they had all

college football guys doing the draft there was no football like where was Brewski where was anybody to tell us what you know like real hardcore NFL stuff it's an NFL draft. It's not a college draft. Right. You didn't have it.

Well, McShay had to take a backseat, right? Cause he had, he got the Corona. So that, that hurt a little bit for sure. But yeah. Yeah. I didn't, uh, I didn't love a lot of the beginning. I don't like that. Cadell makes fun of himself with the booing.

I know you hated that too. That's like, you know, We come up with fat names for Harry and we're texting me and the degenerate trifecta and then Harry will throw one in and it's like, no, no, no, you don't get to play this. This is not your game. This is our fun. It was right there with the boos.

They definitely hired either a PR team or a crisis consultant team to figure it out and be like, hey, man, we just got to make you seem more personable. It's a quarantine. You're going to be by yourself. You're the personality of a shoe. Right, right.

We thought maybe we'd own this booing thing. What about a hashtag? We'll have a Zoom board behind you, and every time you'll turn around and show the pic to the fans on Zoom, who, by the way, can't see the card because they're all staring at a camera that's the back of your head. Yeah, they probably can't even see him, right? Would he take a chance of them seeing him

and Bowie sticking up a few birds along the way? I don't think he would, yeah. Well, and then he changed outfits. Did you see that? Yeah, I know. What was that? What is it, like Madonna? Yeah, right.

It's Mr. Rogers taking over right in the middle of our telecast here. But yeah, I thought it could have been a little more fun. I was surprised. Only one Tiger King reference, and it came 31 minutes in. You have a guy, Joe Burrow, going from the LSU Tigers to the Cincinnati Bengal Tigers. His name is Joe. You got exotic Joe all over the place and they throw it in like they were like apologetic to use it when they when they mentioned it.

But it could have done 10 minutes on exotic. All right, let's. Let's start there with Joe Burrow. Yeah. He seemed dismayed. He was watching it, I think, with his parents. Nobody in the house seemed happy. They had the drapes closed behind them. Everything about it was depressing. He got picked. It's like a hostage video

shot. I don't know if it gets taped well beforehand or whatever. I don't think the replays were matching up with it. No, they weren't. But he had how many months here that he knew he was going to the Bengals? Be a little more excited. I don't, I don't know. Did, did that strike you at all?

It seemed like a quarantine version of what that, that really looked like. What today's draft represented right there. A quarantine. He's only there with his parents. Every subsequent pick we saw had like between five and 15 members of an entourage. So he's, he's obeying the social distancing rules, but no one else really is. And yeah, you're right. The fact that

it doesn't match up when they show the player get drafted and where he actually finds out he's drafted. It sucks. Like the NCAA CBS does a nice job of that. You have to wait like three seconds for the NCAA tournament on selection Sunday when the team all of a sudden goes crazy. But this was 20, 30 seconds behind. And then they get on the phone with their agent. It was just that part could have been a lot better for sure. Yeah. It'd be like, we're doing this on zoom on that. So people can't see me, but it would be like, Hey, we've decided to give you free blow jobs for the rest of your life. And the person's just staring ahead motionless, like supposed to be the most exciting moment of like the first 22 to 23 years of their life.

And they're just staring on a tape delay. It reminded me of speed when they're looping over the bus shot of Keanu Reeves when they're protecting, when he's staring straight ahead over and over again. Well, we can't, we can't really speak for a man. And when it actually sinks in that he's playing for the Cincinnati Bengals. So maybe, maybe it all really caught up to him when, uh, when the cameras were on. Yeah. That was sort of my favorite subplots of this was people trying because we had nothing to talk about. There's no sports and you would hear on sports radio. I heard our friend coward a couple of times, a couple other shows where they're like, you know, what would it take to move into that one spot?

Could you overwhelm the Bengals? And it's like, no, you're the Bengals. They're the, they, they never trade down. They don't do anything. They're the safest franchise we have. They barely want it. They barely want to even own the team. They're not trading backwards.

They're not doing anything like that. They're taking this kid. That was one of the days someone asked me like, uh, is it worth betting burrow to go? Number one, it's a hundred. You have to lay a hundred to win a dollar. And you know, me, I, I love doing stuff like that, but I could not justify that during a pandemic losing a hundred times your investment. Pretty bad. Well, before we get to the rest of your draft, the highlight for me was you, me and house start texting about draft bets a few hours before. I know you're on 17 different text change with things, but for one day it felt like we were back. It felt we're doing, I did two bets. I split, I lost a little money, but I had a two in the top five parlayed with

CD lamb to be the first receiver take. And he was third. So I nailed that one. And then, uh, and then the other one I had was the pats not taking QB in the first receiver take, and he was third. So I nailed that one. And then the other one I had was the Pats not taking QB in the first round because I knew they were going to trade down. I don't know why I didn't bet the Pats to trade down. It was the most obvious bet on the board. It was minus 137. We talked about it.

Tell them about the funniest bet, though, the Harry bet, the Harry special. Well, Harry, you know, from Against All Odds, co-host there. And he loves, uh, he, he single handedly ruined your guy, Nikhil Harry's season last year. He picked him to win rookie of the year. He did this one thing. Oh, he's going to go very early in the draft. And he likes him because he's from ASU and Harry lives in Arizona and he stocks these players. He's a 50 year old weird man stalking these college players. And it doesn't help that the guy's last name is Harry too. So he's got the Jersey and everything else. And so there was a

prop on the board. What did, what did house do? He, he, um, it was the guy that the Niners ended up taking, right? I, you, the, uh, the wide receiver for ASU over Rieger, the guy who the Eagles ended up taking from TCU and, uh, and the Eagles drafted before the Niners did. And Harry went up in flames again or down in flames as it is. So Harry had the, the, the guy that Niners took going ahead of Rieger. Right.

And then of course, Rieger goes to the Eagles. And by the way, the other fun part about that was all the Eagles fans were upset. Yeah. They didn't want that guy. Yeah. They, I think they, if they wanted a receiver, they probably wanted Jefferson from LSU, but we'll talk about what the Cowboys did, but they really screwed up this draft with that. I don't even know if the Eagles take a receiver.

If, uh, well, I guess they would take lamb if, uh, if he had dropped, but maybe it wasn't on their mind to take a receiver at all unless the Cowboys did. Well, you know me. I don't really get into the NFL draft that much because it's always NBA playoffs. And so I kind of know what's going on, but not really. And this year I was into it. And it seemed like it was 16 guys and then it dropped off. And the Cowboys had the 17th pick. So I was looking, I was laughing. I was like, Sal's going to get screwed unless somebody screws

up. Right. And then finally the Falcons took the D back who I don't feel like was in the top 16. I thought they were going to take lamb. Cause if they had taken him, geez, it just goes to, it goes to a different level. And maybe some of those guys are as good as the top 16 guys, but it really, and Danny Kelly, the mock draft did it for the ringers. Same thing. Like here's the drop off point. Every draft has one and you needed somebody to make a mistake. And then it finally happened with Atlanta. Although I guess even if they needed a D back, you would have thought somebody would have traded up because lamb might end up being like a four time all pro, especially on your team. Well, first of all, let's talk about defensive backs for a second.

And, you know, Detroit, all the talk about them trading the pick and everything, what are they going to do? And then they stay put and they get the cornerback from Ohio state. So, um, you know, I Okuda, but I don't but I don't know like why that is the least exciting position cornerback or safety for anyone to take because these guys, it's such a different game going from college to pro. I know you could say that for any position, but the speed is different. If you listen to the experts, they say you are really getting lucky. And maybe I'm, maybe I'm a little jaded because the worst Cowboys first round pick ever was

Mars Claiborne from LSU. And they traded up, they traded up to get him. So we have not had any success with D backs. But, uh, then when Atlanta took one, uh, you know, obviously Detroit took one, then Atlanta took one. I'm like, Oh my God, we have to take lamb here. And I'm freaking out. I'm like, what is going to go on here?

Is Jerry's yacht going to hit a wave and his mouse is going to go flying and he's going to malfunction the computer and something? I mean, he was on a yacht and he's going to make the wrong pick. But for God's sakes, he did it. And now this offense, maybe they'll give up 45 points, but there's no reason they shouldn't score 50. I mean, really, it's really great. Gallup and Cooper and freaking C Cooper and CD Lamb and Zeke.

Like there's no excuses anymore for anything. And I do think they did it for Dak also because it's like, hey, we got your back. Even though we're not paying you what we should have paid you immediately or last year or two years ago, we kind of got your back. We're still building around you.

So you can't really sit out. It'd be silly to sit out. Plus in classic Cowboys fashion, he got involved in a social media controversy that night when they had the clip of his girlfriend, who's wearing a cocktail dress. So that was already getting people going. And then she took one of his two phones and he grabbed it back.

Yeah. And then that became a whole thing. So it was like, perfect controversy with the Cowboys already. They haven't even, they haven't even given the card to Goodell yet. He's already in a controversy. Well, she took the phone that had the contacts of all his other girlfriends. I mean, take the other front. She took the wrong phone. You got to, well, he's supposed to be happy about that. In CD Lambs defense.

If our wives grabbed our phone, we would grab it back with the same vigor. I hate when somebody grabs my phone. Don't touch my phone. All right. I would, I would go for a Ronda Rousey arm bar on my old lady. If she grabbed my phone, too much going on.

Uh, all right, let's talk about Tua. So Tua, it feels like he might drop earlier in the week, but I think we just have to do this little dance. And then it becomes clear either Miami or the charges are probably taking them.

I was thinking they were going to trade up to get them at three. Yeah. The lions who are just, you know, just morons to the bitter end. They'd take a Kuda who's, you know, lockdown corner.

I'm sure he's awesome, but they, they have the worst defense in the league. He's just going to be chased, chasing around wide receivers for 20 seconds says they have no pass rush. Right. But, um, but two at five, you have the giants at four. Why don't these teams like try to pretend they're going to take them? You know, Miami wanted him the whole time. I've, and it comes out, which is what we predicted, uh, being Russell on Sunday night. They did get the doctor and the two is they did give two of the physical. Of course they did.

Yeah. They got in there. Yeah. I never was a believer in the whole, Oh, they can't work these guys out. It's like, this is easily the biggest decision they're going to make in 10 years. They're sending a doctor in a hazmat suit to go work this guy out. But to get him at five, if like the people I know who love college football are just out of their mind about how good he can be. That could have been a legendary pick, right? Yeah, and I was wrong about it. Now that I think about it, why not Tua? Of course, like if he had played full seasons,

he would have thrown close to 100 touchdown passes for Alabama. He also wouldn't have won the Heisman Trophy either of those years, crazy enough. But yeah, he's a specimen. And if he's healthy, you have to take him. And I talked about taking cornerbacks and defensive backs. That's where the Lions screwed up.

The Giants, forget it. They're a whole different ballgame. And they did exactly what you said, I think on Monday or Tuesday. Actually, they sent smoke screens up on 420, ironically, making it like, yeah, I think we like Justin Herbert. And it's like, ah, no one fell for it. It's like, yeah,

nice try, but you're tied to Daniel Jones here, and you have a lot of problems, and you better protect Daniel Jones and Barkley in his last few good years here. But, yeah, amazing. The Lions are the team that could have done it, though. Right, yeah. Because Matt Stafford, the lions are the team that could have done it though. Right.

Yeah. Cause Matt Stafford, what did they ever won with him? He's expensive. He's probably the, either the tail end of his prime or after his prime. And they could have just gotten this momentum going. Like we've sent our doctor to check out to,

uh, we really love this guy. We're going to take them at three. I just feel like somebody would have panicked. Yeah. I just, I think the word got around the league that that Stafford contract is so hard to unload that it would just, just taken a lot to get, uh, get them out of that spot. So you like to in

Miami. I don't know if you heard, cause they only mentioned it 70 times during the draft, but, uh, very popular guy at Alabama. They just one of the most popular guys in that campus. I heard that. I don't know why that would be that they ever go into it? Or are they just a blanket statement like that? And then when he's interviewed, all he does is talk about God. It just seems pretty boring. I wonder what's so magnetic about him in person. He's just one of those guys where when you're actually in the room with him... I like to think our friend Daniel is somebody who's magnetic, right? He's like, hey, buddy, can I get you a drink?

Like, I could see how he would be like a beloved guy on the Alabama campus. But Tua seems like a straight arrow. I don't understand why he'd be that beloved. He seems like a nice guy. Maybe it's appealing to be around him and see how he's going to get injured next. Maybe that's fun, but I don't know.

I don't know why else it would be why else, why else it would be. Now, let me ask you this. How do you look at it? Do you look at it like, ah, Tom Brady dodged a bullet, now Tua's in the AFC East, or Tom Brady has to compete to be the best quarterback in Florida?

So who are the, who's the Florida competition? Tua and Minshew? Yeah, Minshew. G. Minshew? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, let's just say Tua against Brady.

See, where was Jackson, where was Jacksonville in this? So I was hearing all day that was the big move. They were trying desperately to trade up with the Lions, but it just didn't work. But, yeah, they should have. That would have been a good move. If you're the Lions, you could get 7-19 for three. And maybe like a second rounder or something.

You know, 2023 or whatever. And either you take a cooter, you take the other cornerback who went nine. Yeah. And then you end up with the 19th pick too. I would have much rather have done that. And if I'm the Jags, like do they, we thought G Minshew, we thought that was adorable.

We enjoyed it. He was frisky. They don't, they don't honestly think he's their quarterback for the next 10 years, right? They don't really think that. He played that game in the rain, and then he was done. Like, you couldn't even. And they said, but then they keep saying, like, oh, no, he's our guy.

We have to build around him. They were 26th in the league. Because I thought C.D. Lamb was going nine. I was like, the Jags are the first team could actually take a receiver here. And C.D. Lamb to the Jags was 14 to one to the Cowboys. He was 30 to one. I mean, no one ever,

he would fall that far, but that the Jags would take him as 14. I was like, wow, there's good value in that. If they are being true to their word that they're going to build around Gardner Minshew. And what did they take?

They took a corner back. And then they, later on what they take here. They took a defense, another defensive player, right? Yeah. They took a defensive guy.

A guy that I actually wonder if the Patriots had targeted because that was right after that they traded out at 23. Right. Which was a lock, but I was wondering if that was the guy they were kind of waiting to see. Oh, yeah.

They took Chase on, the edge runner from LSU. Right. Yeah. Yeah. He felt a little patriotsy. Exactly. The two that they know, you know, a lot of people made this joke, including Reece Davis, but it is funny. Like, they gut their team last season.

Uh-huh. And it's like tanking for two. It rolls off the tongue. It's perfect. This is before Joe Burrow turns into into like, you know, Jesus Christ. Right. But they ended up getting them anyway with five and they were screwing up their draft pick down the stretch. They're winning games.

They they're coming together. The Brian Flores thing. I thought it was a great story. They end up really screwing the Patriots, knocking them into a three seed, the Pats and lose next round, all of these things they do correctly. And then they still get to a, and they get a new five.

I was just going to say to you, whether you believe which, which of the Ryans ended your dynasty, whether it's Fitzpatrick or, um, or, uh, Tannehill Fitzpatrick for sure led them to victory in the regular season. Like you said, in a game, they should have been trying to lose if they wanted to. And it all kind of worked out. It doesn't really make a lot of sense. And the thing is, I talked about this on Sunday night's pod,

but it's a hit or miss pick. It could be a disaster. He could be out of the league in two years. He might be brittle. You know, it just, it might be one of those things where in five years we look back and we go, Oh man,

there were so many signs that this guy wasn't going to be able to hold up as a football player. Like we knew it and we talked ourselves into it or it could go the other way. And you go, man, they got that guy fifth. Right.

Yeah. But I can't, I can't believe it. Driving me nuts. So you and Hench, Oh my God, we better not get to it. Cause I think Peter King said something like the,

the Patriots would trade up. I think that was his big move that they would trade up and get to it. And you were like, oh, no, we can't. We don't want. I was like, are you kidding me? What are you talking about? You had the best quarterback forever. And now if you have to take a half a year off

and get at the chance of having, once again, a once-in-a-lifetime quarterback, what are you talking about that you wouldn't want him there? It wasn't God's plan, Sal. Listen, I'm very comfortable with what the Patriots are doing. They're clearly tossing away 2020. And they're going to have

nine figures of cap space a year from now. And I'm sure they're going to just put it together. Belichick will figure out a way to go nine and seven. And it'll sure they're going to just put it together. Belichick will figure out a way to go nine and seven and it'll be the most garbage roster they've had, you know, since the 2000 season. And it'll be like, Oh my God, what a coaching job by Belichick. How did he do it? How did he get these guys to nine and seven? That's what they have. They traded down to 37 and a 73. They have

a bunch of thirds. They'll trade back again. You think they're keeping 37? They'll probably move back another time and grab more dudes. It's just hilarious. I'll do this story now, but this is my son's first draft. My son just really got into football this year, and he was really excited to watch the draft,

and he studied the top 15 and he's like, but he puts on the Pat's Jersey at like pick 13. He's like, are we getting ready? And I'm like, Ben, we're going to trade out of the first round. I'm just warning you.

No, no, we're going to take him there. And it gets to 21 and they do that. He was so mad. He was like, what the hell? So they don't have one pick.

And he just, he had never had it, but it sucks when your team trades out of the first round it's kind of like the reverse of um uh waiting for jury duty and you're there all day and they send you home it's like oh thank god i came here for nothing but no yeah no you're waiting two and a half three hours for your Patriots and usually you pick like 31st or 32nd so you didn't have to wait nearly as long today. And then tomorrow when they have all their picks, it's just flying by. Right. Yeah. You know, they're barely even going over what's happening. Meanwhile, today's draft, we get in the background of every guy and every terrible thing that's ever happened to them. And, but the fact that they wouldn't take a quarterback in the first round and that bet wins because they traded the pick. Anyway, the fact that it was, I don't get too technical here, but it was minus 220 before Gronk goes to Tampa and then it goes down to minus 140. That was crazy. That was insane that people thought, oh, well now Gronk is in Tampa. So Belichick's going to mad and take Jordan love here or something. That's just not how it ever works.

Right. It's definitely not how he works either. Right. And the Gronk thing, the coverage of it was so bizarre to me. The guys, I, he said in an interview a few months ago, he's like, I've had at least 20 concussions. I've blacked out five times. I've had nine surgeries.

Like I I'm actually, he's my favorite Patriot of all time. I, I don't think he should play football anymore. And I would have said that if he came back to the Patriots, I just think it was over. He just spent an entire year where he lost all this weight. Yeah. And you know,

and for Tampa to keep them on the cap at 10 million bucks, I thought it was bonkers and pay him $10 million this year. Yeah. right. Honestly, what's your over-under for games Gronk plays for the Bucs this year? Like seven and a half? Yeah, that's probably about right.

And the fact that you talk about betting, like the market totally overcorrected. They were like 18 to one to win the Super Bowl. They went down to 12 to one when Gronk signed. They're not even favored to win the division and they have better odds to win the Superbowl. They went down to 12 to one when Gronk, um, Gronk, uh, signed,

they're not even favored to win a division and they have better odds to win the Superbowl than the saints do. It's, it's, it's bizarre. And here's a guy, we talked about it. He struggled to score three times in 13 games, two years ago and 20 pounds ago with a better version of Tom Brady. Like, I don't see how this works out. And he's a wrestling champion now. And what happens to the 24-7 title? I think he's going to be pinned while he's saluting the flag for the anthem. Someone's going to come up,

some guy, and roll him up from behind. Hopefully that'll happen in week one. It reminded me of when Brooklyn traded for Pierce and Garnett from the Celtics. And people were like acting like they were getting Pierce and Garnett from 2008 and they just weren't the same guys. I still thought it was a good trade because at the time it didn't seem like they were giving up lottery protected.

It seemed like it didn't seem like they were giving up the top three pick in the draft. They were a playoff team, but they weren't the guys that they used to be. I feel that way about Brady. I definitely feel that way about Gronk. So when you see these tweets and people like they took that tackle who fell to them at a 14, that was a good pick. He,

he was in every draft everywhere going from four to a 14. And I was seeing tweets about people laying out their offense, how, how potent it's going to be in Gronk and Brady. And it's like, 14 and I was seeing tweets about people laying out their offense, how, how potent it's going to be in Gronk and Brady. And it's like, that's all fine. But Brady's 43. Right.

And Gronk weighed 225 pounds like a week ago. Like he's going to be blocking people. Right. Exactly. I don't know. I, they feel like this year's bandwagon team to me. We called it last year with the Browns.

We were all over it last year. The bucks feel very bandwagon to me this year. I think we always look at them. I'd love to go back to all of our preseason podcasts. And I think we have the, the bucks going over and wins probably seven out of the last nine years. They, they're ultimately the,

they're the letdown team of the NFC, I think. Did I ever get your thoughts on Brady on the Stern interview talking about how Gisele wrote him a long letter about how he had to be a better husband and how that really made him

rethink everything and it was a come to Jesus moment from him and all this stuff. Does this, do we hope that our wives don't hear that story? Because I just, I, I don't know how the quarantine's treating you, but I just feel like any, any day now there's just going to be a long letter on my nightstand

about how I need to be a better husband. I really hope Giselle's not starting a trend. Yeah. No, why write a letter when, uh, the wives can scream it at us any chance they get now, right? They're just inviting us. Yeah. We're in the same house. We're stuck here. But now, yeah, that interview, he's just too boring for me. I'm sorry. I know Stern's a great interviewer, blah, blah, blah, all that, but I can't listen to Tom Brady. There was a time where if Howard Stern was interviewing Tom Brady, you would have lost your mind, right? You'd be, you'd listen to it 40 times over. Yeah. That those days are over.

Unfortunately. Uh, another big, another big, uh, subplot from the draft green Bay. Yeah. It was a fun draft. I was having a great time. It was so nice to have football back. Just life felt normal again, even though the quarantine draft was a little weird. Um, and then green Bay's on the clock.

And it's like, man, it'd be funny if they took a QB here. Just, I remember thinking that in my head, but thinking they would take one of the receivers. Then they fucking take Jordan Love. Yeah. And it's just going to be great. And honestly, they could have just talked about that for the rest of the draft. I would have had every ESPN guy who was on call

just brought in a Zoom to just be like, what does this mean for Aaron Rodgers and Green Bay? Because it's what we're going to do tomorrow. I don't know why the draft wouldn't reflect that, but it felt like such a fuck you. Not only that, there were reports that he lost his mind, Rodgers. He was

blindsided. They didn't give him a heads up, and he was flipping out. I don't know who would say that or see that, but, and this kind of solidifies what everyone thought that he did not have a good relationship with LaFleur, um, you know, the whole time. So, but yeah, exactly. What does he do? Is he going to, is he going to sit for two years or, and I also think the reporters are a little afraid of Aaron Rogers. I think that's why they didn't talk about it. I don't know. There's a weird kind of thing with Aaron Rogers where you don't, I'm not afraid of them. You're not right. I was thinking my

wife's been just plowing through below deck and Rogers reminds me of like just the way he's acted the last few years. He's like one of the people on below deck who, Hey, we're all going out for drinks tonight. And you see that one person having the three drinks they're like oh man ah there's this there's gonna be an argument you just feel this happening you know rogers is gonna be a dick about this like it's the mortal lock of all time brady with the grapple thing it obviously bothered him the whole time but he never made a big deal out of it i think he just silently see rogers is the other way he's just, he'll be openly be a dick about it. You know, he's going to give an interview.

Well, and also this love, I don't know. This is the, the love for love is, I don't understand where it comes from. The guy threw like 17 interceptions last year. I know completion percentage went down from like 64 to 61.

Like the fact that I was like, Oh, this guy, that was the, I think the one bet I won, I picked them over 19 and a half to be drafted over 19 and a half. And he was,

but I didn't even think he'd make it in the first round. It's bizarre to me. Well, the other thing, and this happens, this happens in hoops too. Mahomes is the hot guy right now coming out the Superbowl.

So then they're like, you know, it reminds me a little bit of Mahomes. He's got that same kind of Mahomes ability to blah blah blah and it's like stop no right don't please no it it reminded me of when uh dirk started taking off in the early 2000s and there's that draft with nicholas tishkavili who went like five to denver oh right they're like you know he reminds me reminds me a little bit of Dirk Nowitzki. And it's like, no. Yeah.

No, he doesn't. He doesn't remind anyone of Dirk Nowitzki. But that was the hot name. Here's what I'd recommend because they compare him to Mahomes because he has,

there's tape of him completing three passes where he threw it like sidearm or something. So if you're in high school or you're in college and you got all your stats aligned, make sure you have a highlight package of you throwing like a sidearm or something. So if you're in high school or you're in college and you got all your stats aligned, make sure you have a highlight package of you throwing like a sidearm path or something behind your back or something, because it's going to go a long way. You're going to be compared to

Patrick Mahomes, at least by a couple of idiot reporters out there. Hey, with all the uncertainty in the world, feeling safe at home has never been more important, which is why I want to tell you about SimpliSafe Home Security, longtime friends of our show show and for good reason. Simply Safe has made it easy to finally get comprehensive protection for your home. No technician or salesperson needs to come and disrupt your house. You don't need to pay any outrageous monthly fees or sign a two-year contract. No, you don't have to do any of that stuff.

Just order online. Set it up yourself in under an hour. Your home is protected 24-7 with emergency dispatch for break-ins fire and more all for just 50 cents a day. And we're not the only fans of simply safe here at the ringer us news and world reports named simply say best overall home security of 2020 head to simply safe.com slash BS and get a free HD camera for my listeners. Simply safe.com slash BS and get a free HD camera for my listeners. simplisafe.com slash BS.

SimpliSafe with two I's. Use the slash BS as well to make sure that they know our show sent you from SimpliSafe and all of us here wishing you safety and good health. All right, we're back.

You love the receivers. What else do you have in the receivers? Well, I just want, the guy that Raiders took, Henry Ruggs, fastest in the draft this year in the combine. Last month, 50 to 1 odds to be the first receiver taken off the board he was plus 350 going

into today but how about the robe how about the robe that he's wearing a robe he hasn't even set foot in vegas yet when john groon looks up and he has to see him in the robe got to be a little concerned right not even in ve Vegas when people are out yet and he's already making a spectacle of himself. He's in hangover too. Do you think he wore the robe because he knew he was heading to Vegas?

Interesting. I wish somebody would ask him that. He looked like he had just had a huge night in Vegas and was trying to figure out if he should go downstairs for brunch out if he should go downstairs for brunch or whether he should go to room service. Like he had that kind of vibe to him. Yeah. Yeah. I, who, out of all the people that we saw just from like, you know, their house, their living room, all that stuff, whose living room made you the most suspicious that they were

being paid off by a booster? Cause there was a couple where it's like, I thought you were in college. I felt bad because some coaches you would think were doing better for themselves. And then there's some players that it was interesting that it looked like an Econo Lodge or something. A lot of pool tables too. Did you realize that pool tables were in this vogue? I wonder if people are just ordering pool tables during the quarantine. Did they really have these pool tables like two months ago? It doesn't seem right.

Was ESPN shipping the pool tables in? I think that was it. The best was Nick Saban had a pool table. He had this little pool room with all pictures and stuff. I'm like, do you think Nick Saban shooting stick on a Thursday night? What's going on? He's like, hey, let's shoot some stick. Best two out of three.

It was a big night for pool tables for sure. The, uh, then there are a lot of, I wanted more information on who was in the room. Like a lot of times you could tell who the agent was. It was, it was usually the one white guy, but, um, but there was a lot of like, all right, who's that? Why is that person there? I just wanted everybody ID'd. If we're going to do this quarantine thing, I just want more information.

Let's talk about Goodell. Yeah. So Goodell is the MC. They decide, they decide, all right, we can't do a draft. We're going to have to do this. Everybody's going to be remote.

Roger can carry this. You see, Roger has the personality and the wherewithal. Like this is honestly something like Jimmy Kimmel should have hosted. Like they should have actually had a real host, right?

Yeah, right. Yeah. Not, not Goodell by himself in like a, a basement bunker doing picks and trying to interact with people. I did not understand why they played it that way. Well, he took on a lot, right? I mean, it's a, it's a bigger risk than normal, obviously, but I think I bet going through his head, he was like, all right, this is the biggest event. This is something everyone's looking forward to after this there's nothing there's really nothing for all of May you have a couple of golf tournaments in there or whatever but I'm going to be the star of this show

and people are going to remember me because I brought this back and it was my call to not delay this so I think he had to be much like a lot of guy who a guy who holds a daily press conference you know reminds us but that's, I think what it was. I mean, they easily could have gotten someone else, right? What was harder to think hosting this NFL draft tonight or hosting the Oscars? Like, honestly, because Jimmy does the Oscars. He does the monologue. Yeah. And then how many more times is he on TV? Like eight times Goodell's coming in and out of commercials. He's reading pics.

He's turning around to the Zoom. He's doing moment of silences. Yeah, right, right, right. It's pretty complicated. I thought they actually might have asked him to do too much. I guess so. Yeah, they asked him to do a little too much,

but yeah, doing the Oscars during the Me Too era was not easy. Yeah, good point.ars during the Me Too era was not easy. Yeah, good point. As the Harvey Weinstein stuff was blowing up. That's right. How did you feel about the Zoom fan board? The 20 fans just like, okay, so

just stare into the camera and then make noise when your team makes a pick. I didn't totally understand it, but at the same time, I feel like they wanted some sort of atmosphere. Yeah, they needed it. They needed that. I mean, they're coming from, what was it?

It was hundreds of thousands of maniacal fans in the street in Nashville last year. And you got done with that. You're like, oh, it really shouldn't be anywhere other than Nashville until they announced

that it's going to be in Vegas outside of Caesars and you're going to go through Bellagio. The players are going to be ushered in through the Bellagio fountains. It's like, what is this? This is majestic. And now it's over computer with little buzzy footage and everything.

But I wonder when that was all shot. I mean, they had to have that. I think they had that all canned. They weren't going to take any chances, like I said, with our idiot fans would have mooned. Joe House would have hung a moon, right? The Redskins, if the Redskins traded that pick, it would have been something.

They couldn't take any chances with that. Yeah, if it was live, we're seeing over under two and a half cocks. Yeah, right. It's just, it's like, absolutely. So yeah. Marty Grah, it's like, absolutely. So yeah. Marty Grah, but on screen for sure. I think the only reason I might think it might've been live,

at least some of the pics, was because when the Packers took Jordan Love, there was a guy in the Zoom, one of the 20 people who was like, who like leaned back in disbelief. Oh, really? Yeah. It wasn't. Oh really? Yeah. It wasn't Aaron Rogers. I mean, I really wish they had the Aaron Rogers cam.

That would have been, they should have thought of that. Right. For sure. Yeah. Aaron, like throwing a seltzer. Throwing an apple. Yeah. And then ESPN going sappy. I didn't, I just, I don't get it.

So you did watch some of that 1989 draft. Cause I thought that was, I can't believe how much I enjoyed it. And, um, and also how bad some of the decisions they made with the telecast where people on camera that just should never have been on camera. Boomer just obviously guessing picks, pretending. No internet yet to call him out on some of the pick calling. I just love that. I was so into it.

But are people going to say that 30 years from now when they go back and watch the Zoom draft from 2020 and see Booger on there and be like, what the heck? Why was this guy? How did that? What? He was in the booth also for years and they didn't replace like, yeah, they, they just could never replace them.

Every quarterback they asked to do it. Wouldn't do it. So he ended up doing the ESPN job for 15 years. Like, how are we going to explain that? So I don't know. Maybe it's all relative. What's the quarterback drop offline before they just decided to go back to booger. Oh, I see't know. Maybe it's all relative. What's the quarterback drop-off line before they just decide to go back to Booger? Oh, I see. Interesting.

Is it, I don't know, Brian Hoyer? You may have to bring some of the old ones back. Ryan Leaf, maybe. Would they try a Ryan Leaf? Who was Romo's backup on Dallas? What if they just went after him? Kitna? Maybe a little Kitna? Yeah. I mentioned

on the last pod I did, my son's been watching all these football life documentaries and he watched the Tony Romo one. And he watched the Emmitt Smith one, which we sent you a little text about. He watched the Romo one and I was like, so what'd you learn about Romo? What'd you think? And he was like, he was good.

Never made a Super Bowl. This is my 12-year-old son. It's like his reaction to a football game. Doesn't that suck? That just sucks so bad that that's what that is. You know? That was his big takeaway. Never made a Super Bowl. And I was thinking about it.

Romo turned 40 this past week. I was like, wow, imagine if he had this crew, 40-year-old Tony Romo with Gallup and Cooper and C.D. Lamb and Zeke Elliott. Why couldn't we make it work? Maybe he should come back. That's what I said. I said, do it.

Ditch this dumb booth job and come back on the gridiron. So now what do we do, Sal? Now it happens. It really is. Let me ask you this. What over under two and a half of the four major sports come back by September? You're going under. If I give you plus 150 on the over.

I think baseball comes back first. Okay. And then I think basketball quickly follows. So there's two. Football, I can't figure out. I don't know how you do football. Well, I just... You can't do it with the bubble thing

that they're going to use with basketball. You can't put 32 teams and 1,500 players in 16 stadiums a week in a bubble. Like it just doesn't work. I don't know how you do it. So you, you might have to do something where you quarantine everybody and they just

fly from venue to venue and bed. I can't figure it out. Now what we're seeing with America now, some of these States are just like, ah, fuck it. We're coming back. out. Now, what we're seeing with America now, some of these states are just like, ah, fuck it. We're coming back. If the virus grows, so be it. It's just the way it has to go. But it's regional, right? All of this stuff is regional. California is very careful. Like I said, I saw on TV, I was like, ooh, there's four family members, maybe not family members on the couch. Some are older. That freaks me out a little

bit. But also, if you announced that LSU was playing Georgia on Saturday, they would sell 75,000 tickets tomorrow. And all those people would die probably by Monday. But I don't know how it would go. But so, yeah, it is regional. It's so funny. I had Michael Irvin on my podcast on Against the Laws. I asked him about this. I was like, what about a quarantine? Would it work? Would it work for the 92 Cowboys? Would they be able to stay in a hotel and just live? And he's like, listen, you could keep the players in, but you can't keep the ladies out.

So he thinks it could work, even with that crazy team. If it could work with them, then it could work with anyone. But, well, I'm surprised that here you think that football is the one that's, so you would go over two and a half then. I, I think I would go under two and a half. Cause I can't, I can't figure out how football would work. And I, and I certainly think it's not a bunch of rocket scientists running that league. Like I have more confidence in the NBA coming to a really smart, safe plan that they put a lot of thought into. Right. Okay. But what about the fact that no league cares about their players less than football? So that would be the case for football coming back. Right. Yeah,

exactly. And you could even see it in the draft tonight with, it was almost by region. Some of the, some of the people that had like, you know, 15 people in their house, it was almost by region. Some of the, some of the people that had like, you know, 15 people in their house, it was like, yeah, they're in the South. Like that's where they think the virus is just like a flu. So I, uh, I don't know. I'd have no feel for football. I think baseball will come back first, then basketball. And then we'll have some golf majors. I I'm worried about you. You know, a lot of talk about mental health the last couple of years. I worry about your mental health with if we get to like July and there's no light at the end of the tunnel, the football, I genuinely worry about you.

You should be worried. You definitely should be worried. I need football in the fall. If you want to start in October, that's fine. But I definitely I absolutely needed to come back. And it's funny. I've heard different things about basketball. Honestly, I've heard I've heard they want to shut in October. That's fine. But I definitely, I absolutely needed to come back. And it's funny. I've heard different things about basketball. Honestly, I've heard, I've heard they want to shut it down. Like how do they do it without affecting two seasons? That's what football

has going for them. It's still four months away, but do you start basketball in December, which maybe they should do anyway, go December to July. Right. Well, I think if they can do the, the abbreviated playoffs in July and August, then you take a break. Then you pick up Christmas all the way through and you just redo the schedule and that becomes the schedule. I just think a lot of stuff is going to be different. And I'm slowly reconciling with that in my head.

It, that just like whatever life was like up until six weeks ago is just not going to be life anymore. And it'll be some different version of it. You know, it's depressing, but this is like our version of a world war. You know, it's like World War II. Everybody's life was different during World War II and then it was different after.

And maybe that's what this is going to be like. I hate that. I hate it. I hate that you're saying it. I hate it all. I mean, just give me some kind of treatment by the fall that I know I'm not going to die from this and let's, let's just do it. Come on. We got smart people put it together. You would think there would be

that one awesome doctor who just comes up with the, comes up with something. And then that guy does a victory tour and he or that lady, it is and it's like oh the doctor so and so is on jimmy kimmel live today and he's a hero and that person right it's just it's just everywhere that person goes he's treated like he's beyonce basically there's got to be that guy or that girl out there somewhere in the meantime we have jerry jones picking cd lamb and then not knowing if there's gonna be football for thanks four months. Let's cheer people up with some Parent Corner. Oh, let's do it. All right.

So I have a lot of time to rewatch things, and I thought as a family we would sit down and watch Friday Night Lights, one of my favorite dramas, definitely one of the best dramas ever on network television, if you have to think about it, right? Like, what do you put up there? Lost, not too many others. It's top ten. Yeah, right? Great. television if you have to think about right like what do you put up there lost not too many others it's not 10 bigger yeah right great my son plays football probably won't in the fall now you know

he's probably gonna forego his sophomore year football so i was like all right let's sit down let's get some football this way we sit as a family we watch it and i noticed my six-year-old, every time Lila Garrity is on TV, what's her name? Cheaters Girl. Mika Kelly. Mika Kelly, yeah. He lights up a little bit. And he's watching.

Yeah, and he's like, you know, there's the makeout scenes with Jason Street, poor, crippled Jason Street in the hospital. And there's her cheerleading and everything. And she's just perfect. And my six-year-old's looking at it, and I'm like, in the hospital and there's her cheerleading and everything. And she's just, she's just perfect. And my six-year-old's looking at it and I'm like, Hey Harrison, you, you, you like Lila, don't you? And he's like, no, I don't. And he takes a bag of popcorn and he throws at me, which is not good because we're trying to conserve calories here. And now you've got to go all over the floor and

pick these kernels up. But, um, he's like, so he throws the popcorn at me. And so I next spend the next 40 minutes trying to Photoshop a picture of Harrison looking lovingly at Lila Garrity and I finally put it together and he sees it and he fricking goes nuts. And you know, when six year olds just give it, give it their all and try to beat the shit out of you. And they're like, they spin like left and right. Like, you know, what was that? What was that dumb thing that Mr. Miyagi had in Karate Kid 2

where that thing, he would move back and forth and it was supposed to inspire. And that's what Harrison's doing. He's waving back and he's hitting me with a left and a right and a left and a right. And it really went like 25 times and the whole family turned on me. They're all pissed off. And they're like, you better not put that picture on Instagram.

I was like, why not? What the hell did you, what is for his six-year-old friends on Instagram? We're going to make fun of them. First of all, he's not going to school again for another 18 months. That's right. Yeah. He's got no friends and he's got no Instagram account. What are you worried about?

So that was a good day and a half of the family not talking to me and no more Lila Garrity jokes. I don't know how tall he is, but they do hit that sweet spot somewhere between six and seven where they're throwing the punches like that. But they're all bought. They're all balls like right into your balls. Yeah. They're balls, lower legs. They hit this three month stretch where even though they're, they're like these little crazy little people that you kind of feel like they can kick your ass. Cause it's just like a barrage on your testicles.

There's no, there's no way to fight them off. It is. It's like Popeye in the cartoons is like leaning over, just going to town. It's terrible. It is funny. They swing from side to side and it's like Popeye in the cartoons. He's like leaning over, just going to town. It's terrible. Yeah, it is funny. They swing from side to side, and it's like five punches in a second. Yeah. They can just get them off. Yeah. Tiny Tysons.

I have two half-parent corners. One is my son plays Madden with some friend that he made somehow who lives in San Francisco. His name is miles. Oh,

and they FaceTime too. So it's definitely a little kid. Like we, we made sure, but it's become this running joke now in our house that, uh, miles is a 48 year old man in San Francisco. His best,

best friend. So, uh, so child, child seduction and all the terrible things, like just a barrel laughs at the Simmons house

week six of the quarantine. Like, hey, how's it going, Miles? Are you guys going to get an apartment together? Like, it's really getting dark. But my daughter finally ended up having a quarantine date with her boyfriend,

which entailed both of them wearing masks. My wife driving over to his house and then spending an hour in the sidewalk. They hugged, but they had the mask the whole time and then just interacted for an hour, took a picture. And then she drove off and that counted as like a date. And it really, and it really meant a lot to her. It was really good to see him. It was the report. What the

fuck is good? What has happened to the world? So my son, same, same age as your daughter, has a girlfriend, same kind of thing. Really just, it was just last Saturday. We're like, all right, you could see each other for 45 minutes. And there was a hug, um, when we weren't looking. And then my middle kid tattled on them and it became another kind of war in the house that there was hugging. But yeah, it's, uh, it's tough. It's really tough. I don't know. I don't know how we would put up with this when we were younger. We didn't have all this stuff. Well, and then they all have the one friend who just has the negligent parents and it's like, well, so-and-so just hung out. He slept over.

And it's like, all right, well, that's not... Who cares? We can't control if some other family is being jackasses. So now you have to have somebody over? What is that? I think that is gonna help

but that isn't that how it always is and we have the same kind of kid like they're foot in california they're filling the skate parks with sand so these skateboarders are all over the place and there are some that are reckless and they're friends with my son and they're slapping asses as they go by and it's like oh god what are you gonna do but wasn't this the idea with this with the iphone like we waited as long as we could until our kids had, like, five friends who had an iPhone, and then you had to get an iPhone. Is it going to be the same thing with social distancing and sending them out in the world?

I don't know. I feel like it might be. I think we have to create some story that we heard. It almost has to. We have to go, like, apocryphal story of like, oh man, did you hear about that Redondo Beach? They let that kid have a date. Her boyfriend came

over, but he was asymptomatic. And then now the whole house has it. I'm going to work on that when we're done with the pod. I'm going to try to sketch out some fake story because that's what needs to happen. Some fake scare story that can knock all the 14 year olds off the scent. Cause yeah,

that's smart, except they're all smarter. They're smarter than us. So I don't know if it's going to work. They really are. Well, this is going to lead to some of the most depressing Netflix teen rom-coms we've had of people separated by the quarantine trying to get together.

So what's going on with locking in? Are you guys, you guys are doing internet shows? We're doing some digital stuff that airs on the other shows that are back. And yeah, it's tough because this was a special week. But like I said, all of May, not going to be a lot going on. And hopefully, what do you think will be back by June? Hockey? Baseball. think will be back by June? Hockey?

Baseball. Baseball is back by June. I think German soccer comes back. Right. That's what they're saying. So we'll have MMA, we'll have golf, we'll have German soccer, and we'll have baseball, but still not for another month. So you think that fight island that

Dana White was talking about, is that a possibility? Cause that kind of got me excited. It felt like blood sport. I love it. You know, at least someone's thinking, right? Someone's thinking outside the box here. Good for you, Dana white. And we're going to go, we have to walk to that Island. Maybe we will. You know, someday life's going to be normal again. And we'll just be guessing the lines and this will all be a distant memory. Uh, because this was a pleasure is always good seeing you. Good job by you. Good job by you, buddy. All right. We're bringing on Chuck Klosterman in one second. First for all of our sakes, we need to avoid crowds

any way we can right now. Well, what if you need to go to the post office? What if you need postage to send out letters and packages? Don't worry. Stamps.com is here to help. Anything you do at the post office, you can do at stamps.com. Personally print U.S. postage 24-7 for any letter, any package, any classic mail for anywhere. Leave it for your mail carrier right outside wherever you live. Schedule a free package pickup or drop it in a mailbox.

No human contact required. Whether you're a small business sending invoices and online sellers shipping out products or you're just working from home and need to mail stuff, stamps.com can handle it all with ease. And with stamps.com,

you get great discounts too. Five cents off every first class stamp up to 40% off USPS shipping rates. And now stamps.com also offers UPS services with discounts up to 62%. You won't even have to pay UPS residential surcharges. Right now, my listeners get a special offer that includes a four-week trial plus free postage and a digital scale without any long-term commitment. Just go to Stamps.com, click on the microphone at the top of the homepage and type in BS stamps.com enter BS. Stay safe, my friends. All right, let's bring them in the man,

the man, Chuck Klosterman. All right, Chuck Klosterman on the line. Uh, we're taping this before the NFL draft. So sadly we don't get to hear his thoughts about, um, where people landed, but why don't you go on the record now? We're taping this Wednesday afternoon. Where should Tua have been drafted? Well, where do you think he's going to end? Do you think he's going to go third? Do you think he's going to go seven? Where do you think?

I mean, where should he have been? Yeah. So I don't know where he's drafted. I would say that he is potentially the best player in the draft. At worst, the third or fourth best player in the draft at worst the third or fourth best player in the draft so i would say somewhere in the top 10 but i mean it's it's hard to say i understand this idea that they can't they can't see him and they can't talk to him and they don't fully understand his but the thing i'll say about that guy is you know, I probably watched more Alabama games than any

other team outside of the Pac-12. And he so rarely made bad throws that I feel like I can almost remember every one that he threw that was poor. Like it happens so rarely. I mean,

Burroughs was kind of the same way as a senior, but that was that big jump. it's happened so rarely um i mean burrows was kind of the same way as a senior but that was that big jump i just like like chua seems just so perfect to me but you know i i there is a risk there's no question well it's all the health thing i mean it's a hundred percent people just worried that he's had all these surgeries and what if he gets hurt again and you know i i see some concern now about him being left-handed, which is surprising. I'm surprised that still is something that, that people would factor in as a,

as a potential issue. But yeah, I like what South pause when they become a factor in football. Like there was always this thing about how Belichick loved left-footed punters. Cause he felt like the ball came off weirdly off their foot. Well, Sparta rolls the opposite way, I guess. But, you know, it's like, yeah.

And then left-handed or lefty field goal kickers was another one where it seems like it just seemed like harder if you were lefty, but there's no reason why it would have been harder. I want to talk to you about we're going to do a much bigger podcast in like two weeks about just the,

the state of everything you've been preparing for a quarantine for years. You've unconsciously. Yes. Yeah. You've been ready. You've been ready for this moment for a long time. So, you know, I don't want to say you're vindicated, but you're just, you were prepared. Well, yeah. Okay. We'll say, we'll say that for the next one. I just wanted to talk about the Michael Jordan podcast because two things happen here. One is that this.com is everyone's excited about it. There's no sports. Then it happens. It's this whole thing. Everybody watches it or big, it's excited, but then they're over the next two or three days.

Some of the worst takes I've ever read in my life, a complete disconnect. We seemingly by age group where a lot of people who are in the basketball media or basketball media, Jason or Twitter people. And it just becomes clear that they really had no idea basketball existed in a major form before like 2000. I was shocked that people were so surprised by how many things they learned just in the first two parts of the Jordan doc. I felt like I just knew these things intrinsically as did you, but now I'm wondering, is this just an age thing? Should I even blame these people for not knowing this stuff? Well, could you blame them for not knowing it? I mean, should you blame them for not knowing it? I mean, the things that we're learning

in this Jordan documentary, if you're out there learning anything, are a little bit ancillary to the games themselves. So they may be things you need to be around for to remember. I mean, are there... You have a very deep understanding of, say, Will Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Nate Thurman. But do you know all of the stuff about their life, how they were perceived by the people around them?

I don't know. Like, it's easier to learn about someone's basketball career than someone's sort of, you know, uh, kind of vague character. I don't know. Well, I haven't seen like, what are the takes you talking about? I haven't seen what you're talking about now. I haven't been looking, but it's like, I'm wondering what you're talking about. Well, all right. So a couple of basic ones, people being shocked and surprised by the 63 point game. Like, Oh my God, that was amazing. I can't believe he did that, which I, to me was always like this essential. I just assumed everybody knew about 63 point game. It's an odd thing not to know that is nothing. That's why I guess, or Pippen not, you know, being just badly woefully underpaid for the entire nineties. I felt like that was such a crucial part of his entire narrative.

And although I'll tell you this this i had forgotten about his demand to be traded so kind of aggressively like that i remember that he was the most underpaid guy in sort of the modern era it's hard to find an example of a guy who was more underpaid at one point considering how valuable he was but i didn't recall that he was for all practical purposes gone. It seemed like he was going to be gone. I'd forgotten that. Well, and they left out that he almost got traded that summer to the Celtics

because they had offered him the third and sixth picks in 97, which would have been Chauncey Billups and potentially Tracy McGrady. And then the 98 first round pick, which would have been Paul Pierce. And in Boston Boston they thought we I was living there that year we thought we were getting Scottie Pippen like we thought that

was a done deal so he was always kind of halfway out the door and it never really happened but I always loved him I was always like a huge Pippen defender I don't remember where you stand on this but I was always a huge fan oh yeah he's a two-way player. It's

pretty hard to argue. Here's the thing about this documentary, though, that there's certain things about it that I do find pretty interesting. Now, the stuff about Krauss, in a way, Krauss is kind of depicted marginally

sympathetically in this right because you know you sort of see how uh kind of obnoxious Jordan and Pippen were to him and you know you have to give him some credit for how that team came together but you know what I feel is like I don't know if it's an underrated thing or if it's so obvious, it shouldn't even be brought up that everyone just concedes this. But don't you think his decision to try to reinvent and blow up the team at that point was just insane? Oh, yeah. Like a strange decision. And but here's the deal. You talk about you see these takes out there. I would assume, judging from the way sports media seems now, there would be a lot of sports writers sort of defending his motives that they would say it's like you you've got you know, you've got to get you got to change things before they start breaking down. You know, it's like, uh, you got to make the, you know, it's like the, the idea of, of, of, of thinking about how much

you're spending on guys and all these things seems like a very sort of modern way of looking at this. So I wonder if younger people see this and they see what Krause was doing and go like, well, of course that makes sense. Yeah. You know, the, the tough part of trying to figure out what that seventh year would have looked like. Cause there was a lockout. I wrote a piece two years ago about how I do think Jordan would have played, but eventually just every door was closed. He would have had to go chase a ring on some other team. The key part though, is Rodman was basically done as a functional starter in the NBA. And it was

born out the next year. He, his career was over, you know, in a couple months, the following year. So I think they were probably looking at is like, we were paying so much money for Jordan already, 33 million, whatever it is, we're going to have to pay Pippen. It's basically just those two guys. We're not going to have the rebounder anymore. We're not going to win the title anyway. I get all of it from a basketball standpoint. The part I don't understand is why Reinsdorf was so okay with just walking away from the biggest cash cow anyone's ever had in the NBA.

I can't imagine how much money he made from Jordan year after year after year, why he would risk that. I get the sense that he was the kind of owner who was like, I hired a journal manager to make these decisions. I mean, that's something now like with Jerry Jones and Mark Cuban and stuff like that. We don't really view, it used to be like, you look at the Maras and stuff like that. The idea of being an owner was you did not become involved with those decisions. True. stuff like that. The idea of being an owner was you did not become involved with those decisions. True.

You know, that's kind of a somewhat, I feel like modern development, this idea that part of the reason you purchase a sports franchise is so you can have some control over it. I think in the past, it was looked at as something like a civic investment you made, and then the people you hired made those decisions. So I think he trusted Krauss. Well, think about, so the next year Cuban takes over, I think basically within two years, I can't remember the exact year, but it was 99, 2000, somewhere in there. And he was the first modern NBA owner we had.

And he was like, I'm in on everything. I'm going to sit on the bench. Everything we do, I'm running this as a business. Ultimately the buck stops with me. And that's basically became the model going forward. I'm with you on maybe Ryan surf wanted to stay out, but at some point with the amount of money at stake, I'm surprised he was so willing to capitulate with Kraus because Kraus clearly combination of, he probably thought the run was over anyway, that they, that this

was their last chance to really win a title and compete because salary capitalized, they couldn't be able to do it anymore combined with, it seemed like he genuinely felt like their organization was the reason they won six titles. And he's on the record saying that over and over again, like he really did believe that. And that looks,

that looks bad. I mean, he just, he can't say things like that. And then he said like, well, it was kind of taken out of context. And that looks bad. I mean, you can't say things like that. And then he said, well, it was kind of taken out of context. If what he said was what he claimed he said, that's a much more reasonable thing to argue. You know, it's also, he had such a terrible relationship with Jordan. Now, their relationship seemed totally different when Jordan went to play baseball. But, you know, they seemed pretty tight.

It seems as though if you wanted to completely reorganize that franchise, if he had went to Jordan privately and said, like, look, you're the most competitive guy in the world. You understand how this works. If we move Pippen, we can get a player at, you know, basically at his level who's much younger. We can get moves to get into the lot. If they would have made Jordan feel as though he was the person sort of

controlling the reboot and he's like the one piece there's Jordan may have agreed to that. I mean, I, I don't think that Jordan's loyalty to Scotty Pippen was that deep. Oh, I don't either. I think his loyalty was to Phil Jackson. Yes, it was. If they had just said, hey, Michael,

we're going to trade Scotty, or hey, Michael, we're just going to let Scotty go. We're going to try to rebuild on the fly around you and Phil. I think he would have signed up for that. I've always been fascinated by the relationship in general between Michael and Scotty, because on the one hand, it seems super tight. On the other hand, Jordan still seems like he's mad about the migraine in 1990.

And well, OK, there's a there's a very telling point I felt in this documentary where at one point, Jordan is complimenting Scotty Pippen and he's giving all these reasons about what Pippen's value was and then at the end he's like, and that's sort of why I call Scottie Pippen the best teammate of my career and it's like, well obviously, it's like no one doesn't

think he wasn't the best teammate it's almost as though Jordan is acting like, see I'll concede, I'll concede that he was great you know, it's I'll admit I'm curious to see how this documentary can last 10 hours. That's a lot of footage. Okay. But those first two episodes were great. And there are little bits in these things that I, I just love like, okay, here's what I thought was the most fascinating part of the first two hours. The scene where the French TV guy is putting his mic on and asked for an

autograph. That's great. Then. And then after that game, the guy from the other team, the French guy from the other team who asks for his wristband. When the mic guy is putting, you know, like putting that stuff on and ask for the autograph and the guy steps in i was talking about this chris ryan actually he made the perfect

description he's like jordan shuts down like a robot like it almost looks like he powers down steps to the side and looks to the floor it's like a weird thing okay but then when the guy asks for his wristband his behavior is even stranger he doesn't seem to even look at the person doesn't seem to even acknowledge the transaction is happening gives it to him though immediately does not seem at all surprised that the guy asked for it was like that was almost weirder like i the thing that i i really enjoy about watching something like this is that i've read so much and heard what these guys have said but you really do have to get a visual of how they deliver information and how they do things when there's no information to deliver and i it's I don't know. I just, I love thinking about Michael Jordan's personality.

I just, I could just sit here in my house and think about it for this whole pandemic. I just, I love it. You know, I love the two. I remember when, um, when I was working on my book and try getting ready to write that pyramid chapter about him. And I read every Jordan book and there are some really good ones. Like, you know, he's, even though the sport of covering an athlete changed over the course of his career from an access standpoint, that's basically what Halberstam's book is about the playing for keeps book where he's like, I went from breaks of the game where I was on the road with these guys had had 24-7 access to anyone I wanted to, I do this book, and Michael doesn't even sit down for one interview with me.

He's like, yeah, we'll do it after this season. Just never does it. But, you know. But that book is not critical of Jordan, though. No, it's not. But the Helberstam book, I almost felt like that was Helberstam being like, it's late in my career.

Sport's been part of my career. This is going to be the best athlete I experienced as a journalist. I'm going to do a book on this now, you know, but there's a lot of good stuff in it though. Oh, there, Oh, it's great. It's no, it's a great book like that, you know, um, the, because Phil Jackson saw Helberstam as somebody who I really want to talk to. And I feel like the, you know, cause he respected him. He really remembered him from Vietnam and all to. And I feel like, you know, because he respected him.

He really remembered him from Vietnam and all this stuff. It's like, you know, I think Phil Jackson gave him information, not just for on the record, but to like, you should bring this up to Pippen. You should bring this up to Ron Harper and stuff, you know? Right. That's a real good book. Well, wait, there was the best book I remember reading just for what was Michael like. Remember that guy, Bob Green? He wrote a couple of my...

Bob Green, the Chicago columnist. He wrote, I think, two books about Jordan, but one was like he just ended up having this relationship with Jordan, this friendship. He was the biggest columnist in Chicago at the time. He was their equivalent of Jimmy Breslin or whatever. And, um, just wrote a book about his friendship and the things they talked about. And that was the most human kind of glimpse of MJ Jordan rules was like, here's what he's like, here's what he's really like this, this, uh, this guy in the Spike Lee commercials and the posters, like, this is's what he's like. Here's what he's really like. This guy in the Spike Lee commercials

and the posters, this is actually what he's like as a teammate. So it was like, oh, wow. And then as the decade progressed, there was more. The Jordan rules is also like, this is how pro basketball is. I mean, that's when you read that book.

You feel like, you felt Smith really, he understands this. There's a, you know, like one thing that I, this is before I saw the, the, the first two episodes. So this was last week. But a lot of,

it seemed like every journalist who had seen this documentary in advance was making sure people knew that they'd seen it. It's like, I heard people talking about it, you know, they're saying like, Oh, episode seven. Okay. This is the one that's real revelatory. And then there, this discussion sort of emerged about, you know, is it a problem that, you know, that we kind of lionize Jordan for this behavior that is now viewed as toxic. And it's somehow like, do we need to rethink the way we perceive Jordan, not as a basketball player, but sort of as a person? Does this make people, you know,

will this prompt people to sort of think about the world in a way that we tried to sort of move out of the culture? But, you know, it's like, this is one of the interesting problems about sports, which is that whatever the parameters for behavior are, the individual who is willing to push those parameters the hardest will almost always succeed. And you can go back to when the parameters were different for Ty Cobb or whatever, and then Bobby Knight and all these people, it's like individuals who basically said, what is, um, the most sort of adversarial aggressive posture I can take, um, and still be seen as acceptable. And in the period Jordan played, he was on the high end of that. He was, he was the most competitive, um, most demanding personality. And that's never going to be eliminated from sports. Those parameters will change. And I think some people want the

parameters to be different continually and incrementally. But I just think that if someone has a problem with sports because they think it's sort of rewards, bad kind of behavior and kind of rewards, um, like a, like a, almost a sociopathic sort of desire for success. It's like, that's never going to disappear.

That there's always going to be part of it. I always, I always appreciated that with Jordan. Um, I do wonder what it would be like in 2020. And we saw some of it with when Kobe was emulating a lot of the Jordan behavior during the height of his Lakers career as people were starting to turn that stuff. But now you put it in the 2020 context. Like, you know, what like there's Scott Burrell is a guy that over the course of these 10 episodes, he really goes after.

And he's pushing him, pushing him. And there's a whole payoff to that arc. Like what if Scott in 2020, what if Scott Burrell is like, uh, my mental health has been jeopardized by my teammate, Michael Jordan.

It becomes like, you know, the biggest story of the week. Um, and I don't know how that, I don't know how that plays out. I mean, like you say,

like you really appreciate that with Jordan. I think a lot of people did. I do not think it would be appreciated now. Now it would be seen his behavior and his mentality would be seen as going a little beyond what the parameters are. It would be I just I don't think it would be the same, you know? And I think that like one of the reasons people, you know, love nostalgia and they love remembering things is you can look back on things and say that you like something that would be very dangerous to say that you like now, like it's, it is there.

Anybody can say that like what they love about Jordan was like, sort of is go for the jugular, take no prisoners and like only cared about this one thing. When people see that though, in the present tense, they, they're not comfortable with it. Like if they feel that like it, particularly if it's a situation where they feel like this person is going further than everyone else. Yeah, but it's funny. And you see it in the doc.

He's definitely a little bit of a bully. But he's really more of a dick than anything. He's all about little barbs. You even see it in that one where they win the trophy in France and he's just kind of like, hey guys, I know it's the first title for some of you, but this doesn't mean we want anything. And he's just constantly needling.

I don't know if that's anything more than just somebody being kind of a dick. I don't feel like he wasn't a bully. He wasn't threatening people. He was just trying to mentally condition the guys that he had. So he'd go to war with them. I mean, I suppose in a sense though, that he was a bully because he could not be challenged because it wasn't just that he was the best player on his team. He was completely universally understood as the best player who had ever lived so you could

never come back at him like what what are the stories of someone being challenged by jordan and like getting back into space you don't hear about kwame brown being like get off my back or whatever when that it's like that never happened. Well, it's Steve Kerr. Steve Kerr's the only one, and Jordan ended up punching, but they got in a fight. And Steve Kerr says in the documentary in a later episode, he's like, you know,

Michael really respected me after that because I stood up for myself. It seemed like all Michael wanted was people to stand up for themselves, which is both a good way to lead, But also weird I remember him talking about that Soon after it happened I think that after they had won the title

He was like interviewed I distinctly remember this thing Jordan said He was like he felt real bad about Punching Kerr He was chewing the pillow that night Like Jordan went to bed And chewed on his pillow And I assume if he's Michael Jordan He chewed chewing the pillow that night Like Jordan went to bed And chewed on his pillow And I assume if he's Michael Jordan

He chewed through the pillow And then like called and apologized To Kurt But the way it was framed It was almost like Jordan feeling bad about punching him And apologizing Means Kurt won the fight

Even though there was only one punch. Right. Kerr took it, you know? Well, Kerr definitely, like, he gave him a hard two-hand shove in the chest. Like, he definitely went at him. And then Jordan punched him. But, yeah, I mean, it's weird that he loved that. But when he would challenge, like, Brad Sellers, and Brad Sellers didn't know how to fight back.

Basically, they had to get rid of that guy within a year. He had, there's something about his personality that he just had to constantly test and gamble with and compete with everybody. He was around at all times. Like there's a story in the Halberstam book about when, when Rod Higgins beat him in ping pong once in some hotel lobby or something. And Jordan went out and bought a ping pong table and like just played ping pong until he was the best player in the team. Like that's fucking weird, but that's what he was like.

That's how he ended his life. It is that, I mean, there's, there's, I mean, we've talked about this before. There's a story about this with John Elway.

John Elway used to have guys over to his house to play pool. Cause he had this beautiful pool table and he never lost on it and he lost one game and sold the pool table i never heard that he sold it the next day wow he got because he had never lost on it now when we talk about athletes like this it does there are great stories that's interesting but like it doesn't it doesn't cross over into any, almost any other aspect of life. Like if, if, if you had like a foosball table at the ringer office and like, I don't know, it's like,

like fantasy beat you on it and you'd never lost and you immediately sold the foosball table. That would be like an oral history about how you're fucking nuts. Right. Like it would, no, it wouldn't be like, this explains why Bill Simmons is rich. Uh, the MJ Pippen thing quickly. So this bird and McHale used to have this really weird relationship where McHale was birds

Pippen, but it was this big brother, little brother thing. And bird would always kind of stick it to McHale. And you know, like the famous story of McHale scored 56 and bird was like, he should have gone for 60. And then he scored 60.

And then by the end of birds career. And after he retired, he would always talk about how Dennis Johnson was the best team that he ever had. And Robert Parrish was so great. And he would always talk about how Dennis Johnson was the best teammate he ever had. And Robert Parrish was so great. And he would, even after retirement, would not compliment McHale the same way. And it was always like, what are you doing? McHale was your best teammate. Why are you doing this? But I know, but Bird's criticism of McHale was very specific and a different kind of criticism. His criticism of McHale was that he didn't work hard enough and

didn't care enough and that i think drove bird crazy because bird looked at a guy who was two inches taller than him had uh you know basically uh almost on par in skill set i mean one was a low post guy was outside guy but like you know and i think he could just not accept that McHale thought what he was, was enough, you know, Dennis Johnson, Dennis Johnson did get the absolute most out of his physical ability. I know. But the crazy thing about that take on McHale is that McHale by all accounts, after every

practice was working on his low post game for an hour to two hours after, like he put in the time. I, I almost think he, he didn't like that. McHale didn't hate losing as much as bird did, you know? And then, and then you look at like the 87 playoffs, McHale plays with a broken foot. He just keeps playing his foot breaks in half, keeps going. It's like he wanted to prove to Bird he cared. And meanwhile, it ended up changing

the second half of his career. But that superstar second banana thing is always fascinating to me. Kareem and Magic had all their stuff. Like Magic was always afraid to kind of take over the team

because it was Kareem's team. Kareem was this aloof. He was the leader but didn't say that much. And it was like, when's my time? And then finally started grabbing the steering wheel a little bit. But, um, you know, every team has a one like that. The Pippen thing is particularly unusual because after the retirement, he's had a couple moments

where he's just like, yeah, LeBron's better than Jordan and stuff like that, where it feels like he's not totally on Jordan's team now. So it feels like there's some bitterness, but I don't really know the root of it. Yeah, I mean, it's... Bitterness might not be the right word. It does seem as though Pippen is right in this. He's like that, you know, Jordan is never going to give Pippen is right in this. He's like that, you know, Jordan is never going to give Pippen the extra compliment.

Jordan's not going to do what most teammates in that situation do, which is occasionally kind of say a positive lie about the guy. I mean, I remember one time Dan Fouts talking about whoever was the backup quarterback for the chargers at the time. This is like 1981 or 82. I can't remember what the guy's name is going to drive me crazy now, but, but like Dan Fouts was saying that his backup, he believed to be the third best quarterback in the AFC. And that's, I'm sure that wasn't, you know, that's's not true. Jordan never said something like, Pippen was the second best player in the league the whole time I was there.

That's the kind of thing teammates usually say in that situation. And he never does that stuff. Or thank God Scott is on my team and not another team because he would be a bitch to go against. My buddy Hench pointed this out. The irony of the 90s for Jordan

was that the guy in the league who was the best equipped to at least try to slow him down a little bit was Pippen. If you're going to pick a defender from that era and be like, okay, who could do the best job on MJ? They're not going to stop him, but who could at least make him really work?

It's Pippen hands down. There's no other guy in the league who could have come close. I mean, when you look at the guys, you know, who guided Jordan the best in his career, I think of two people right away, Joe Dumars and John Starks. Okay. Those were the two guys who seemed that was early in his career as well. But those were guys who, uh, you know, seemingly gave him problems and Pippen's a lot longer than those dudes. And as you know, and a more skilled defender. So he, he, you know, if you're kind of like designing someone to play defense in basketball, like they would look like Pippen. Yeah. I don't know what other,

I'm not sure what other characteristic you would want. You wouldn't even want the guy much bigger because it could in some ways impede the quickness and the lateral movement. I mean, like it's But he becomes, it becomes Kawhi. Yeah. Those are the two guys. Those are the two perfect perimeter defenders. If you were just in a

science lab creating them from scratch, you would create one of those two or a hybrid of the two. What do you think LeBron? He's got to be going nuts. He was looking really good as like in the go, all the under 35 people were like, LeBron's a goat. Anyone

who hadn't seen Jordan, and now here's this 10-hour, five-week Jordan extravaganza. Everybody's going to leave this Jordan dot going, oh shit, Michael Jordan really was the goat. What's LeBron's counter? First of all, I got two things to say on this. Okay.

The first is, I think you have now created this kind of obstruction where I don't think LeBron can do anything to convince you that he could be as good as Jordan. I think you have made a decision that you're just not going to shift from this position. Okay.. I think you have made a decision that you're just not going to shift from this position. I think you'd have to play for like 25 years for me to even consider it. How many

years has he played now? Like 17. 17. So he's got to play eight more years. I just think Jordan's ceiling and impact and everything was just higher. It just was. The point two I'm going to make though, is that people have wondered, I've seen

other people wonder about LeBron watching this, you know, and it's like, what is he thinking? But you know, think of the age that LeBron was during this time. You know, the person who's your idol when you're 10 is kind of your idol forever. So I would guess that LeBron is watching this and part of him is like, he's the greatest. He's still the greatest. I mean, I think if you have a certain feeling about someone at a certain age, know you'll you'll never get over that like every year when individuals are inducted into the basketball hall of fame or the football hall of fame or the baseball hall of fame i always find myself being like that guy shouldn't be in the hall of fame like you know he's not like you know they don't they don't seem that way because the

guys like they don't seem to me as good as Mike Schmidt or Ricky Anderson or whatever, but that was a product of my age. And I guess LeBron is similar in the same way. Okay. So LeBron graduated high school in what, 2001? 2003. 2003. There's a chance. There's a chance Kogus is his guy. Cause I was in Akron from 1998 until 2002. And I don't think it

was the four years that he was in high school. He was three. Cause remember he was in the 2003 draft with Darko and Carmelo, all those guys. So in 97, uh, that's, he would have been what? Seventh grade. Yeah. It would have been, he would run 11, 11 or 12. Okay. So that So that was the end. So he had watched Jordan's career up through that period. I would guess that it is, even for LeBron, it is hard for him to think of himself on the same level as Jordan,

no matter how many people tell him that. Oh, I think he thinks they're on the same level. But I think that he would say I'm a better shooter than he was. I had a big, I'm a bigger frame. I was a better passer, but I'm not Jordan because it's something different when you're a kid. I mean, I think this is part of the reason that the way that you probably view certain Celtics and Patriots and stuff from your youth is it's not even a criticism. It's just, it's impossible to see things outside of that world.

You're more accurate. Any person's more accurate gauging the value of something as an adult, or even from before they were born when they're just sort of looking at tape and statistics. I feel the relationship you have with things when you see somebody, when you're like seven, eight, nine, 10, 11,

it's, it's just, it's a warping thing. Like I think, but I think you can get, you can get jogged out of that though. Like I think tiger who really started peaking when I was like 30 and older and Jack Nicholas was my favorite golfer. And he would, but it was

like clear that tiger was just the best golfer I was going to see. So I think if somebody comes in and Brady's like that now, I think for a QB, I Montana was my guy forever. I was like, I don't care what anyone says. I was there for the Montana thing. That guy was unbelievable. I'm never seeing a better quarterback than him. And then Brady ended up probably being better. Well, he played longer. I mean, the,

the argument for Brady over Montana is almost identical to the argument for LeBron over Jordan. And more, more rings though. Jordan LeBron only had the three rings. LeBron also had that 2010, 11 combo, which is,

it's, it's, it's tough for his, if you're really talking like GOAT legacy, like the 2010 Celtics series and then the 2011 finals against Dallas, those were really rough, you know? And Jordan never had anything like that. Well, that's true. Jordan never did. You know, that and the two years or the year and a half he took off.

I mean, that's. So that's his equivalent of that. It is very, it is fascinating to think of how Jordan would be perceived differently. Maybe not at all. Maybe it'd be the same. If he had won three titles, lost to the Rockets in five games, not advanced the next year against the Magic anyway, and then won three more. Now, we all kind of worked from the premise,

well, of course that wouldn't have happened. Like, he probably would have won eight. I think that there's a feeling that they would have won eight. But, you know, like when you look at the Rockets and the Bulls records during those first three, that first title run, I mean, the Rockets were a real problem for Chicago. I don't think winning record against them. I don't think there's any way he wins eight, but I have a different reason.

I don't think what he was doing was sustainable. Russell and I on Sunday night, we broke down the Knicks Bulls game for 1993, which he scores 54 points. It's like a famous MJ game. And one of the things that was amazing about it was Jordan and Pippen are basically trapping full court for a lot of the game because the Knicks were weak in their backcourt. Doc Rivers was hurt. And they were like, one of the ways we can flip this game is we'll put two of the greatest athletes ever. And we're just going to make them work full court. We're going to create chaos.

Jordan's doing that defensively. And then he's scoring, taking 32 shots, scoring 54 points on the other end. And he would do this routinely. I don't, I just don't think you can do that for eight straight years. I really do think that was one of the reasons he got burned out.

He played so hard every game. Whereas I think LeBron, one of the things he's been really smart about is when to kind of turn it on and when not to turn it on. You know, he would treat a typical Charlotte game in January a lot differently than he treated a playoff game. Jordan kind of wasn't able to do that. That was his fatal flaw. I mean, what I would say is the best argument for Jordan is still the best player ever is, you know, you have to look at the guy compared to everybody else. And the gap between LeBron and the rest of the league is not as great as the

gap between Jordan and everyone else. That's the real key thing. And I mean, it's the same thing with like Jabbar and the seven, the gap between Jabbar and every other player in the league for most of the seventies was extreme. Right. You know, six MVP. You'd have a year where Walton was arguably as good as him.

You know, you could have argued that at his very kind of ABA peak, you know, Irving was as good as a small form, but for the most part, it was like there, there would not have been, if you could openly draft any player in the league

throughout from 1970 to 1980, Jabbar would have been the number one pick every time. Yeah. Jordan would have been the number one pick throughout the 90s, including the years he played baseball. Like people would have said, like, can I still have him or whatever? Right.

LeBron has not had that. There have been years where people were like, I think I would take Steph Curry now or I was like, Oh, well we got, you know, it's like Shaq is still available. So that is the difference. I mean like, like LeBron, uh, I think that if, if you can, if you're measuring like their bodies and their skills and all these things and their longevity, it, it really is hard to argue against LeBron now, but he is closer to his peer group than Jordan was.

Well, the longevity thing makes it so hard to figure out because, you know, you even look at the stuff. I did a thing with Mikael. We watched game seven of the Buck Celtics thing for NBA TV and we're just shooting the shit there in the game. We were talking about just how different it was. they're, you know, he's playing with this broken foot that they diagnosed incorrectly and then they just send them back out there and, you know, he's wearing sneakers from the mid eighties. There's no, there's no sort of, uh, dieting like all this stuff.

We've talked about those advantages before that somebody like LeBron has now, I do wonder if you just take Jordan from the, the 85 to 98 Jordan, and you just gave them all the advantages people had now, how long he would have played, like, would it have been 20 years instead of 13? I think it's pretty reasonable to think, yeah, he would have played two decades. It's just easier to do that now. LeBron at age 35 was arguably physically 95% what he was at his absolute peak because of all the ways he can stay in shape. Yeah, easier might be the wrong word, but definitely possible. You can definitely do it. It seems like guys now, if their whole life is making sure their body stays together they can play a real long time um brady is another one yeah it's uh it's it is like who

somebody in this doc i can't remember who it is but like they they have just a great thing where they say sort of like he he was the only guy who could turn it on and turn it off, who just never turned it off. Yeah. Like that's, you know, that's an interesting way of looking at it because the assumption is if you're a player who's so great that you can turn it on and turn it off, that's going to be part of your advantage, that you're going to be able to flip the switch down, take plays off, and then

come back at you. I guess he did, really. Even when you're watching that stupid game against the French team, he played pretty hard in it. Harder than he needs to. He was just a maniac. Goldsberry had a piece

last weekend about, they have all the shot charts from Jordan's last two years. It's only two years, but it's the last two Bulls years. How unbelievable his mid-range shooting was. He basically mastered it. He was shooting 55% on jump shots from 12 feet to 19 feet. And he had mastered it in a way like people thought Kobe was this awesome mid-range shooter. Jordan's at this whole other level.

And, and then you look at the shot charts of all the other guys in the league at the time, there's no comparison. He was like three times better than everybody else. It was surprising though, on that shot chart, how his shooting percentage in the paint was lower than you would have

thought though. Cause he lost his legs his last year. He was tired, I think. And it may have been a difference in how the game was officiated. You know, I mean like the degree of difficulty in a layup, there used to be an assumption kind of that if you're at the rim, there's probably going to be some contact. It doesn't, it's not as true anymore. Yeah. Yeah. I just think it, there I was like, well,

we, he wouldn't have shot three. I, he would have done whatever was going to win. And if he was here in 2020, he would just be like, Oh, so threes are important.

And he just would have become the best three point shooter. Like he was the best at everything. There was no, no thing that he wasn't awesome at. If it was like, Oh, do this. He's going to be the best at it.

What are you looking forward before we go? What are you looking forward to the most? The next day parts? Well, I, I mean, I, I'm not, oh, do this. He's going to be the best at it. What are you looking forward, before we go, what are you looking forward to the most, the next eight parts? Well, I mean, I'm not sure. I mean, I don't know. Is it going to be, are they going to have 10 kind of backstories? Like, is this going to be Jordan Pippen, Rodman,

Phil Jackson, a Steve Kerr backstory, a Tony Kukoc backstory? Is there going to be a Krauss backstory? Like, I'm assuming you've seen it, right? I've seen the first nine. Yeah, it definitely goes more into the footage from that season as the doc goes along

because they have this mother load of great behind the scenes stuff. So as once they set up everybody, it moves more into that. Yeah, I, you know, it's just, it's a little odd that simply because of the conditions

of the world now, it's like, there's so much interest in this, you know, there was so much interesting interest in like Tiger King,

you know, it's like, there's just these limited, these things that are, we have limited opportunities now to sort of

experience anything new that like, it, I, I was, it was weird to me that i was spending sunday looking forward to watching something that's a limited engagement right unlimited engagement that i could watch anytime i want you know but i was um so i just i don't know i guess not i i'm just i'm able to see what interested to see what it is. I'm also interested to see if there's anything in here that is going to dramatically change the way I think about any of the involved people. Because when Jordan Pippen, Phil Jackson, Rodman, all these guys, it feels like I have kind of a calcified view of how I think of those people, you know, and I've had the opinion I've had about them for 10, 20 years or whatever. So I'm curious to see

if something actually shifts that, you know? Yeah. I think that was what was so surprising to me after the doc came out with these people that were looking at Jordan just completely freshly, like, Oh, I had no idea. I didn't know. Cause I feel like you and I, cause, and probably anybody else who was there, we just kind of knew this stuff, but then you realize, Oh, you know, we're getting older and every year you get older, there's another year of people that just have no idea. You know? I mean, it's, it is. I mean, like some people are just more fascinating than others. I got a text from a friend of mine and said, how many athletes who didn't murder anyone could you make a 10 part documentary about? Like, it's a pretty small list. We started talking about guys. It was like,

oh, what about Kaepernick? And he's like, ah, six episodes. It's like six hours of being up. But Jordan, it's like, if this thing was just about Jordan, I wouldn't be as interested as I am about the whole team. I do want to ask one quick thing before you leave. I was listening to one of your other podcasts with Priscilla, and you had mentioned that you secretly signed your wife up for survival. Yeah. Okay, here's my question. Did you tell her you did it then?

Or would it be like, honey, I got some news. You can be on Survivor if you want. I told her I did it after. Okay, you did. What was her reaction? She was like, why'd you do that? And I said, I don't know. I've always wanted to be on.

And she's like, I would get voted out in three days. You know, I'd go nuts if I couldn't eat. I was like, it'd be great. That's exactly why you should go on. The fact that that is her reaction makes me think she will go on if selected. Like the normal, like if someone did it to me, I would be like, I'm not doing that. I don't care how much money you offer me. But when she's like,

Oh, I think I'd lose. It means part of her things. She'd win. Well, we've always joked about it because she'd be amazing in the challenges. And I, I do think,

I think she could navigate a lot of it. I think she'd be a really interesting contestant. Um, I know she won't get picked, but it's just been ever since they created the show. We've always joked about, Oh, I'd have it. I think she'd be a really interesting contestant. Um, I know she won't get picked, but it's just been ever since they created the show, we've always joked about, Oh, I'd have it. And then why, why won't you get picked? I think that, you know, maybe Jeff Probst would go, I would love to have the loved one be you come out, you know, you know, I can see that situation happening. Yeah. We were joking about when that loved one episode,

that it would just be our dogs because she likes the dogs more than me or the kids right now because we're all trapped together. So just like, here's your dog, Willie. And she would be the happiest to see Willie. I did feel, we watched the loved one episode last week. I always, I don't understand. The families fly out. They're in some weird location, right? They're, I don't understand the families fly out they're in some

weird location right they're i don't know where they'd fiji or wherever the hell they are they're always always fiji now right that's yeah they kind of go to this because there's less about sort of the mystery of the area now it's like here we are so flying cross country so you can be trotted out for the loved ones episode. Might get to spend an hour, maybe two, maybe, maybe if you win a challenge, you get to stick around for like five hours and then that's it. Like back to the Fiji Ritz Carlton or wherever they put you up that you're flying back. I don't know if it's worth it. It would be a long flight, although, uh, it would be tough Not to do it If your wife got selected for this

And you were like I'm just going to send you Kobe That would be a real shock Also they've had years Where it's like Somebody's friend Because it's queer Either they didn't have a great relationship with their parents

Or they're not married When someone gets on Survivor, do they ask who would you like your loved one to be? They have to. Yeah. So for me, I'm not going. I don't have time to fly cross-country and just see my wife for an hour. I would just send

one of our kids. I don't know. I'm good. Like, no, no, no. She'll be happy to see you anyway. I got work to do. I can't fly across cross country to do the slow motion jog for an hour of time. I'm not doing that. Although what was one of the situations where the,

the loved one compete in the challenge? Oh, that would be good for my family. Well, but wouldn't you feel some desire to be involved with that? No. Cause I would have my daughter do it. That'd be amazing.

If it was my daughter, my daughter would kill it. She'd be great. That'd be a big win. I hope I hope she makes it. It'll be the funniest thing. Although, do they have Survivor anymore? Is Survivor canceled now because of how do they do it? The next two seasons, I think, are canceled.

There was because there was going to be. Because there was going to be one, and there was going to be one right after it. And I think that I read that somewhere. Those are definitely in show. You know it's getting serious when they're canceling Survivor, a show that was going to be on for the rest of our lives. That and The Challenge and The Bachelor. You know, because wouldn't Survivor be the rare example of a situation

where if every participant was tested and the crew was tested, you could do it? They were talking about playing the NBA in a bubble in Las Vegas. That's impossible. You can't do that. But you're on an island. I think that's happening. It's a remote. What?

I think that NBA thing's going to happen. The bubble thing. I would be surprised. I would be real surprised if they tried that. How are you going to be able to do that? You just do it. You test everybody. You bring them in. Nobody leaves. But then you also have the

training staff. You have their families. You have all these things. No families. Leave the families out. How long is it going to be like seven, eight weeks? I don't, I don't know. I mean, like, I, I think that like some of these guys, LeBron might be one of these guys who'd be like, I need to be with my family during this. They want to make money. Well, they do real money.

Yeah. I don't know when's real money at stake. Yeah. I don't know. When there's money at stake, I always assume things are going to happen. There's too many people that get paid if this happens. Players, owners, networks. You have three people getting paid. Isn't this pandemic showing the limitations of that, though?

I mean, there's a lot of ways somebody could make a lot of money during this with a vaccine, with a testing device. It's a lot of things. It just can't make it happen. Some things can't be made to happen. All right. So you're coming back in a couple weeks and we'll do the bigger one about the quarantine and all that stuff. But I had to get your Jordan thoughts.

Thank you for coming on on short notice. Appreciate it. All right. Thanks to Sal. Thanks to Chuck. Thanks to the NEF. Didn't get to watch this draft together. That was sad. Thanks to SimpliSafe. With all the uncertainty in the world, now is the time to protect your home with SimpliSafe. No technician or salesperson needs to come to your house. Just order online. Set it up yourself. You don't need to pay any

outrageous monthly fees or sign a two-year contract. Your home, whether it's a house, apartment, wherever you live, is protected 24-7 with emergency dispatch, all for just 50 cents a day. Head to simplisafe.com slash BS and get a free HD camera for my listeners at simplisafe.com slash BS to make sure they know our show. Sent you, if you missed the rewatchables this week,

we did Ferris Bueller and Ronan, and we have beautiful girls coming up this week. Flawed rewatchables, but a cable classic. Enjoy the weekend. Stay safe, and we'll see you on Sunday night with Russo. On the wayside I don't have On the wayside