The Bill Simmons Podcast - NFL Preseason Hype Buy or Sell. Plus, Spike Lee on Basketball and Movies | With Danny Kelly

Episode Date: August 14, 2025

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Danny Kelly of The Ringer Fantasy Football Show to discuss the preseason NFL hype (2:54). Then, Spike Lee joins to talk Knicks; Denzel Washington; his new film, ‘Highest 2 Lowest’; and much more (01:02:09)! Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Danny Kelly and Spike Lee Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Bill Simmons podcast brought to you by the Ringer podcast network where I put up a new rewatchables on Monday. We did Rollerball, which came out in 1975 and is one of the first great modern sports movies. Brian Coppner and I broke it down. You can listen to it or watch it on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel or on Spotify. Next Monday, we're doing a movie that came out 50 years after Rollerball. I think this is the biggest disparity we've ever had between an old movie and a new movie, a 50-year difference. We're doing sinners. Best movie I saw this year. I've seen it a bunch of times and cannot wait to talk about it. So that's going to be on Monday. Stay tuned for that. Spike Lee and I talked about that a little bit later, actually,

when we did our interviews. So you can look forward to that. Want to talk while we're talking about movies, Mission Accomplished, new narrative podcast that's going to be on the big picture podcast. It's about the 2000s, the Bush years, and a deeper dive into some of the films that came out right after America was going through 9-11 and a whole bunch of other stuff. So that premiered August 12th, and you can check it out on the Big Picture podcast. On this podcast, Danny Kelly's coming in and we're going to talk about all the preseason NFL hype. What do we believe? What do we not believe? What are we actually even more excited about than the hype? I told him 25 minutes and I think we went 50.

So a lot of NFL, a lot of NFL going on. Can't wait for it to come back. We're getting close. And then Spike Lee for the second time ever, he is a new movie coming out. And that is not what we spent the first half hour talking about because we had to catch up on a lot of basketball stuff. He came over to the new studio and did it. I'm getting back in the swing with these celebrity interviews.

I'm trying to remember how to do them. It's been so long. Once COVID happened, I hate interviewing people on Zoom. We'd had this great run of interviews in 16, 17, 18, 19, and then COVID just stopped it. But now I want to get back in this swing. So Spike's helping me get my chops back. But I had great time. A lot of good stuff that came out of that, too.

So this is a big action-back podcast. One note, I will not have a podcast on Sunday unless there's some sort of major sports event or something. But I'm probably not coming back until middle of next week. So just keep that one in mind. We're going to take a break. We're going to do Pearl Jam and then Danny Kelly and then finally Spike Lee right after this. All right, recording this late Wednesday, so if anything happens, don't blame us.

Danny Kelly is here. You can read them on the ringer.com. You can listen to them on the ringer fantasy football show, an excellent show. We'll be doing our little four-person preview on this podcast a little later in August. Danny Kelly, I was thinking about it. This is our 10th NFL season together. Wow. Yeah, it is.

That's right. Because the ringer was June 2016. And this is season number 10. So what was going on in September 2016? Oh, man. We still had Tom Brady. Peyton Manning was gone. Rogers was becoming the king.

The Seahawks were still relatively relevant, right? There was still a chance that they were going to kind of keep their dynasty alive, but it just didn't happen after that. The Cowboys were getting a lot of hype and not coming through, which is just like now. Dejaveu, yeah. We had all these quarterbacks we didn't really have yet.

Like Josh Allen and Mahomes, none of those guys were on the radar yet. We were wondering who the next wave was going to be. Early on in my tenure at the Ringer, we did Cleveland Browns Week. I can't remember exactly what season it was. Might have been that first season. Obviously, that didn't pan out so well.

We probably had a sponsor for it who left, who was like, I don't want to sponsor the segment about. Give us our money back. So it is officially preseason hype time. You pointed this out. I said, hey, I need an NFL segment. I want us to do something. You're like, well, it's preseason hype season.

It's almost mid-August. This is when we overreact to stuff good and bad. We're going to play a game called Buy or Sell. So it's preseason hype. It's not just the good hype. This is also the, uh-oh, train wreck coming kind of hype. It's all kinds of hype. What's your number one preseason hype either way that you've been like, huh, what's going on here?

So this is tough because there's a lot of really fun things. I'm one of those sickos that likes to watch preseason football and get really into the nitty-gritty. The first one I want to bring up is the Bears offense. The situation that's going on with the Bears' offense, I feel like there's Bears despair right now with Camp. And it's weird because at the same time, there's really good vibes with Ben Johnson. Like that signing was electric and everything they've done from like the coaching point of view has been good.

But I think all the reviews so far from camp and everything that you're seeing on Twitter and kind of just what's happening at practices, it feels like it's not going so well. So I am officially selling bears despair. I'm holding out. I still have hope. I still have faith that the bears are going to be a pretty good offense. It's going to be a huge upgrade over what we saw last year. So do you think this is a case of the.

The offense is just way more elaborate than it was last year. And it's the classic, everyone's just trying to figure out stuff. Everybody's got way more jobs on 50 different plays than they had before, and it's just super choppy. Yes. And I think the nice part, it's like one of those things where as the season goes along, I think it's going to start to look a lot better. I know Ben Johnson is sort of known for being very detail-oriented. And to me, what that says is early on in training camp, he's going to be so focused on all those details that they're going to have to kind of keep going over it, you know, getting all the motions correct, getting the snaps just how he wants

it, getting everybody in the right place. But I think that was kind of a, you know, that was a big part of the reason their offense just wasn't good last year. It's like guys aren't going into the right spot. You got guys that are not fully bought in with the offensive system or like whatever, the coaching. DJ Moore's walking off to field during a play, you know, that was just kind of that was a great that to me was just like the biggest indication of how terrible everything could have possibly gone like yeah caleb williams is scrambling around and dj more just walks off the field and i'm like okay that that's that is the that's the biggest indication this is just an absolute train wreck but um if you go through obviously i think the ben

the ben johnson hiring to me is like one of the biggest hirings of this kind of era this it has the potential to be kind of like that Sean McVay thing. Obviously, we've seen guys with a ton of hype that don't end up being very good, and that could be the case with Ben Johnson. But everything we've talked about for the last two or three years is Ben Johnson, you know, genius play caller, genius play designer, play sequencer. You know, he's pulling out end arounds, hook and ladders, passing to tackles, passing to, you know, having double passes, everything.

Like, he has been more in his bag as a play caller than any other offensive play caller. NFL over the last few years. And so to me, that is a huge, huge upgrade, especially when you compare it to like Shane Waldron last year. I mean, Shane Waldron has become kind of a butt of jokes. But, you know, the thing that we always talk about on our show is there was an interview last off season with Jackson Smith and Jigba. And he was asked, like, what do you, what do you think of the Shane Waldron hiring for the bears?

And Smith and Jigba was like, are we live here? Is this on? He's like, he's a good person. Yeah, nice guy. Yeah, so, I mean, I think that's a massive upgrade. They've done a lot to work on their offensive line. I saw PFF has the Bears going into this year as the fourth best offensive line. That's a bit of an outlier, but I've seen, you know, fantasy points has them 15th, draft

Sharks, has them 10th, FtN has them 12. So they have the potential to be a top half of the league offensive line. If everybody kind of works out with that they brought in, they drafted Colston Loveland, Luther Burden, year two of Roma Dunezay, hopefully he's healthy. I'm just kind of buying all the different ingredients here and I still have belief in Caleb Williams even though obviously he looked terrible as a rookie most of the time.

I mean, he had some pretty good games too, but the lows were just really concerning. And so hopefully Ben Johnson can just eliminate some of those really, really bad games and kind of raise the floor for the whole offense. You left out the Bill Simmons rankings, which I sent to you. You were the only person I sent them to.

Yeah. I had the top four Denver, Buffalo, Philly, Tampa for offensive lines. but the next tier, Indy, Atlanta, Minnesota, and Chicago. Yeah. I think they're a top eight, if you just look at, like, the amount of money they spent, the people they have, and the talent and the ages, like, it's just, you know, and I defer to all the offensive line girl, like Brandon Thorne, people like that,

and all of them are like, that line's going to be good. The chargers, I think I had potentially up there, but after the Slater thing, not happening. So the Bears piece, it feels like it's going to be choppy. I feel like we've seen this before. in other NFL situations where it takes like a month. Right. And I have my eye on them like as a second half.

I'm just trying to file this away from a betting standpoint. I think they're over under's eight and a half, which to me feels a whiff low because if you're just going to pickpile on a division, I think that's one of the divisions to look at. I think the other one would be the NFC West. If you're like there's a 40 plus win division sitting here in one of these conferences, NFC North and AFC West, I think, would be the two picks.

The problem for me with them, just like as I think of them, big picture, is, you know, some of the schedule stuff and all the night games, like we get to week 13, they're playing a Friday night, they're week 16, a Saturday night, week 17, Sunday night football.

They play two other Monday night games. It's like, for a team that wasn't good last year, they're all over. treated like they're a national TV thing, but they go Vikings' first week of the season. And that's the thing that really scares me. Because I think there's a case for the Vikings defense to be the best defense this year.

If you're going to say, who's the best defense this year? And you're just listing candidates. Vikings, Texans are in there. Steelers still have to be in there, even though I think they're going to slip off a little bit. Is there anybody else who would even put in that conversation? It's probably the Vikings in the number one spot. I mean, yeah, absolutely.

pre-season. So they're playing them week one on Monday night, which makes me nervous. This is going to, yeah, and please remember, I'm not saying week one, they're going to be a very good offense. I think as the year goes on, we're going to start to see the Ben Johnson effect take hold. I think it's going to be a tough one, that week one against the Vikings, you know, they're going to make his, they're going to make Hill Williams life kind of hell. Disguising shit. Oh, these guys are, no, now these guys are going. 100%. It's going to be a nightmare. Yeah. But I think overall. That'll be our overreaction week one. It's like, the bears are dead.

Caleb Williams his career is over And then it'll be like five and four After week 10 Yeah All right I like that one I'm going I'm going shock With this first pick

I saw my guy Peter Schrager I saw a quip of him on one of the ESPN shows Because he's on a bunch of them now And he was doing this And I was laughing because I knew it was coming I wish I could have bet on this on Fandall The The Giants knew

Abdul Carter was going to be good they didn't know he was going to be this good. Yeah. This is the official week of holy shit. This guy might already be one of the most impactful defensive guys in the league. This was the devastation of the Patriots with the Joe Milton game, who of course plays his first preseason game for Dallas and stinks. Right.

And meanwhile, the one time he was able to put together three decent hours in a row cost us the number of pick. I like Will Campbell, I'm happy for him, but this Abdul Carter thing and the Giants having a real kind of frightening pass rush, I don't know what it means, but it means something. And it means there at very least, if you don't have your shit together offensively and maybe your left tackles out, you can't block to begin with, it's not a team I want to see. So have you been following the Carter hype train because I'm buying? Oh, 100%. I mean, this, you know, this could be one of the best fronts in football. Lawrence is probably the best defensive tackle or one of the best defensive tackles. It's definitely one of the best. I thought you, when you started that

sentence, I thought you're going to be one of the best fronts of the decade. No, I'm not going that hard. But yeah, I think this is the type of team. There's a couple teams that are doing this right now. I feel like the jets are kind of trying to do this too. It's like emulating the Eagles. Like the Eagles are the prototype. They're the blueprint. You know, if we have a really good defense with a ton of studs up front, we can you know, that can create things for the back end and then we can, on offense, we can run the ball and play a ball control offense and, you know, all that stuff. And I think there's teams that are trying to kind of emulate that. This is a very poor man's version of it, I think, for the

Giants. Yeah. But, you know, I heard on the broadcast the other day that Jackson Dart models his game after Jalen Hertz. And I'm like, I can kind of see what he's talking about in the sense that he's really good, throwing deep. He can hit those big plays. He can run around. He can be a part of the run game. They had some design runs for him. Um, you know, and Dave all is a guy that comes from coaching, you know, Josh Allen. So like, I think he's open to utilizing his quarterback in the run game.

Again, this is a very poor man's version of it. Um, and, you know, I wasn't like the hugest Jackson Dart fan, but I do, I, one of my things I actually was going to bring is that I'm buying that the giants are going to be kind of fun this year. Um, I don't know if they're going to be good, but they're going to be worth watching that defense is going to be really, um, you know, they're going to know where they got fucked. Where's that?

They should have an awesome schedule, right? They suck last year. They're playing the AFC West and the NFC North. Those are the two you don't want. Their fourth play scheduled, they're playing the Patriots, Vegas, and the Niners. Like, all of those teams might be good. Yeah, we were trying to figure out when the best spot to bench Russell Wilson and bring Jackson Dart in this season is going to be.

And it's kind of tough because they got to go like mid- season. I mean, I guess maybe at Bears, week 10. Yeah, you can't do week five. That's at New Orleans, because then after that they get Philly, Denver, Philly, San Francisco. I mean, that is like... Denver and Philly in the road.

By the way, we, I forgot when we were talking best defenses, I forgot to mention Philly. I'd like to apologize to the defending champion Eagles and their fans. And I forgot to mention the Broncos, because that's the other team that I think could have a top three defense. But in the Giants case,

at the very least, it's a team that if they're up 1310 in the third quarter and they could just be like, oh, you have to throw the ball now and they're just unleashing everybody. We've seen teams that have awesome pass rushes. It doesn't matter when you're down 20 to 3. Right. It's not who cares. But I agree with you. I think they're going to be really fun on both sides of the ball, which is different than

basically every incarnation of the Giants for the last 10 years. I know. Yeah, I give Hyphitz crap all the time just because the Giants have been. one of the worst teams in the NFL. They score some of the fewest points, fewest touchdowns. They've just been pretty much awful since we started working together at the ringer.

So hopefully this year that changes and he can have a little joy in his life from his team. Well, listen, the Carter thing was a miracle that he got to third. Seriously. It's a merit, and that a team traded up to two and didn't take Carter.

Right. And I don't know, maybe they were worried about the foot. But I'm just, the Travis Hunter, that's great. You can play both sides of the ball. You're going to be super exciting. I get it.

but I just if you're just starting from scratch what are the things you need to be an awesome team quarterback one and probably somebody like Carter would be the number two thing you would want just started from scratch so well you I went there but then you pivoted it back to Jackson Darts so I think I get to go again

yeah okay um Josh Simmons Casey having a left tackle oh good one um I've been reading a lot about this so they lost tune Tune because everyone's like, well, they have a left tackle that. Well, you're still, you still lost Tune.

So you can't say your offensive line's going to be dramatically better, but they will have a left tackle. They get this guy, you're, you know, you're one of the focal points of our draft pod. Somebody that would have been in the top 10 to 12 range if he doesn't get hurt, gets hurt, falls into the, you know, end of the first round. All the smart draft people were like, oh, shit,

that might be a good pick if that guy can play next year. And guess what? He can play. Are you buying that combined with Rishi Rice back, a healthy Pacheco? Yep. We get Hollywood Brown back. Are you buying the Mahomes As a fantasy guy or no? I think so.

I'm cautiously optimistic. Obviously, the problem is I'm a little nervous because they have such a good defense that they're just going to play the type of football that they've been playing the last couple years, which is where they dominate defensively and they don't, you know, and they haven't been as explosive as they were early on in Mahomes' career. In fact, if you look at Mahomes' numbers on deep passing last year, they were pretty horrific relative to what you'd expect from him. It's awful.

And then obviously Travis Kelsey, kind of a shell of what it used to be, but he's still a good player. He's still going to create matchup problems on the inside. I'm cautiously buying what the Chiefs are doing. They've upgraded their offensive skill player group. I was a Jalen Royals fan. I think he could give them something while Rishie Rice is suspended. I think Xavier Worthy, he showed last year that he can kind of play that Rashid Rice role as well

in terms of getting him opportunities to run after catch, crossing routes. You can't catch up to him on crossing routes. He will just run away from you. And, you know, I thought he showed some things. I still don't think he's like a complete receiver. He's not going to win in contest to catch situations or anything like that. But, you know, they've, then they'll get Rashid Rice back at some point, either week four, week six, probably.

And he's looking like he's been pretty healthy. So, you know, their offensive skill group will be a lot better. Pacheco is going to give them a little bit of, you know, explosiveness on the ground. They got Elijah Mitchell and Breschard Smith this year in free agency. The problem last year, they had like one of the slowest run games I've ever seen. You know, they're trot and cream hunt out there as like one of their main guys. And he, you know, he doesn't have any explosiveness left.

He's a good tackle breaker, but not scaring anybody. So they have a little more explosiveness in the ground game. And then, like you said, to Josh Simmons saying, I actually circled that. mocked Josh Simmons to the Chiefs and of course it happened. You know, it's like one of those things where it's like just the perfect situation for them.

It sounds like he's healthy. His tape was outstanding. He didn't face a ton of really high level competition early in the season, but I mean, he just, he looked like the best past protecting left tackle in college football at that time. Like he was just,

it looked easy for him. Yeah. So, you know, getting a left tackle at that spot, pretty incredible. So if he can stay healthy, that's obviously a huge, huge boost for them. So first three weeks,

They're playing the Chargers in San Paolo. God only knows what that field's going to be. Eagles, week two at home. And then at Giants, week three, and then Ravens, week four. Dang. So no Rishie Rice those first four weeks. And I could see the same like, ah, Chief's offense. And then by mid-season, they'll be going.

You know, I did that. You already knew that I had Allen as the top quarterback. And, of course, a lot of people were upset. about that. Mahomes fans and Chiefs fans. He was sixth in MVP last year. Six. He didn't even throw for 4,000 yards. And then he didn't win the Super Bowl. And it's not like he was amazing in the playoff games. I don't feel bad about it. I think Josh Allen, right now in this moment, week to week as from a durability standpoint and just everything you want, is still the best guy. If I had to bet my life on a guy for one game, I would still

bit on Mahomes, but that's not the exercise. It's like, who would you rather have for an entire season? Right. And I just think Josh is the best, best guy for that question. I don't feel bad about it. I know you probably disagree. I mean, I think when you were talking, I was in my head thinking if I, if my life depends on one guy executing a drive in the fourth quarter, I'm going with Mahom, so maybe that's why you go with that. But if, if you're explicitly saying, like, the full season, like big picture, complete package, I can understand it. But I still probably go with Mahomes. It's more of just like a lore and

confidence in him getting it done in the crunch time type of thing than anything. Then Alan. I went back and I watched the fourth quarter of the Chiefs Bill's game and I think I blocked the Kincaid play out of my mind. I forgot like how amazing Alan was on that play to get

that pass off and then if Kincaid catches it it becomes this legendary Josh Allen comes through the Bill's like you just think like that's That's why I think it's way closer. It's a good argument. It's what, you know, way close to the people think.

What do you have for the next hype thing? Well, I'm surprised you haven't said this. So maybe I'm stealing it from you, but Trayvion Henderson as the new Jamir Gibbs or insert any super exciting, explosive electric running back into that sentence. The Trayvon Henderson, like, buzz. To be fair. I was hoping and praying you would bring it up. I was saving it.

I thought if it came from me, it wouldn't be as genuine. I am buying this so hard. I'm buying it 100%. You know, obviously it's very early, but the fact that he took his first NFL touch 100 yards for a touchdown is like, you kind of can't ignore that. The thing that I loved about him, you know, going back to the draft,

I actually had him, I have him and Omar and Hampton right next to each other, but I had Henderson over Hampton just slightly because of some of the stuff he can do in the passing game and just the pure juice that he brings. He's just so explosive. And the past blocking, which was like the, they've never had a guy who had speed like this but could also pass block.

Yeah, and, you know, add in everything you heard about him at Ohio State was just like he is the alpha. He's the best guy. Everybody absolutely loves this guy so much in terms of just like the character and everything. So I am so excited about what he can bring to this offense. Obviously, explosive element you heard about, I think today he had some 70 yard touchdown on a pass. Second play. Yeah, the second. Like I didn't follow that.

Yeah, he's breaking plays. left and right. It's just, it begins in the open. He's just gone. I think it's like simultaneously, you can't get, you can't buy in too much to the running back hype when it comes to the preseason because they're not hitting. Sorry, you know, it comes to like training camp and everything because they're not hitting. They're not tackling as much. But with him, it's passing game and what they can do in him and with him in the passing game, vertical routes. Like I've seen multiple highlights of him running down the sideline, whether it's wheel routes and vertical routes. I just think he's a really,

dynamic, big play creator, and it is going to give the Patriots the type of juice that they really do need on their offense. Like, who else gives them juice right now? Kyle Williams is the other chance and then digs if he comes back, but they have way more speed than they had last year.

Yeah, and so, and I think just in the NFL in this area, you have to have explosive playmakers, you know, especially in an era when teams are trying so hard to limit the big play, like this is the type of guy who can create big plays, who can, you know, in theory, get teams to kind of like load the box a little bit more

because you start to threaten in the run game. I still think that they're going to use Ramadre Stevenson quite a bit, but Trayman Henderson as a complimentary, you know, the Jemir Gibbs, David Montgomery type of thing, I think he has some real potential. And I am like unabashedly all in on this hype right now. I'm loving it. They've had no explosive in this,

much like the Chiefs last year where if you don't have a couple guys in the field who can scare you a little bit. So this Henderson thing, all of, if you just, if somebody stole my phone and looked at my text, they're basically all about Roman Anthony, trivia on Henderson. Yeah, yeah. And whether Jason Tatum can come back by the All-Star Break. But so you mentioned Gibbs. And it's, first of all, Henderson, I think, is still like 15 to 1 to be offensive

rookie of the year on Fandall. Something like that. Maybe it's gone down a little bit from, because the hype has started. but you mentioned Gibbs and it's like man it would be amazing if he could be Jamir Gibbs

he's only been in the league two years but they took him 12 and it was like this is a weapon this is this toy here Gibbs' stats his first year

182 rushes for 945 yards and 10 touchdowns rushing then catching he was 52 for 316 his longest catch and run

was 20 yards oh that's surprising if Henderson doesn't I'm sorry, 24 yards. If Henderson doesn't beat that, I'm going to be shocked. Yeah. I think he can get,

first of all, if he plays 17 games, if he stays on the field, which I think he can because he's one of those like short, all muscle. Like he, I think he can cuss somebody on Washington last week. The guy put his head down.

He trucked a guy. Bulldozed him. He trucked him. But it's like, could he get 50 to 60 yards a week rushing? But then in the passing game, be like a, 60 catch, but maybe like a 500 or 550 guy because he'll break two or three during the season.

Right. And then if that's the case, not only you're in the offensive rookie of the year combo, but you're in like, could you be an RB2 for somebody in fantasy, which I actually think he can. Oh, yeah. And the thing with him is they can pass block with him. McDaniel had some stealth quotes about him that did get recognized by the true Pats fans where he was comparing him that Danny Woodhead, Shane Verene, James, White, some of these third down backs, and he was just like, he's just has way more juice than

and I love those guys. But he has way more juice than those guys had and can block. So they've never really had anybody like this. But this is for what McDaniels does, this is the kind of guy he loves. We've just never had a guy this talented in that spot. So I don't think you can do a, not only am I buying the hype, I'll buy everyone else's hype. I'm just, if there's an island, I'm buying condos on it. I'm ready to go. I am all in. And honestly, it's a miracle that he fell to 38. It's a miracle because Cleveland had 36 and took his teammate, who's already gotten into trouble off the field.

But in the moment, people were like, whoa, they took. It was honestly like a Nick Chubbs, Sony Michelle situation. It's like, ooh, you took the wrong guy from the college. So to get that guy at 38 is a miracle. I can't believe it. There was a lot of buzz that he was going to be a first rounder coming into the draft. I think there was, you know, people taking the over. on running backs in the first round.

Gentie and whoever else it might have been, Trayvian, or whoever. And Hampton. And, you know, I think it's really just because he wasn't necessarily a quote-unquote full-time running back in college. Like, maybe that was the difference that he fell a little bit.

I guess my question is, why couldn't it be? Or maybe he could be like a, could he be like a 17 carries a game guy, plus a pass catch guy, if he can block and he's just built like a fucking truck like why couldn't he play

we have short running backs I don't know he I think he could I think the worry is he was banged up several times in college the wear and tear thing yeah okay I get but yeah I mean overall

you know where do running backs really differentiate themselves I think big plays passing game stuff obviously breaking tackles I don't know if he's like a huge tackle breaker

but I think what he is is a you know he's a nobody touches him guy right he's like a you know the pursuit angle killer he he gets past pursuit angles because he's so explosive and so I think you know he has potential to be a really valuable player

regardless of the position just because of what he can do and how he protects the quarterback you know the first two picks were the Patriots first two picks were designed to help protect Drake May the Will Campbell and Trayvon Henderson those get both those guys are going to protect Drake May so I can see the logic I think it was

you know great job by the Patriots obviously Well, and then in the third round, they get a left guard. So they actually have the semblance of we can actually protect Drake May. Now they need Drake May to protect himself and not, you know, take on seven guys. Let's take a quick break and then we'll do the rest of the buy or sell guys. All right, go ahead. You're up. Buy our sell.

I am buying the Tetaroa McMillan hype that we're seeing in the preseason here. I'm surprised. I'm selling. I'll sell mine to you. Okay. Okay. I'll buy it. I'm scooping up as many shares as I can.

I think he is exactly what Bryce Young means in terms of a true number one, ex-receiver, guy that can win in the short, middle, you know, and deep areas, big body. And the important part is I think he does what he does for the rest of the skill group for the Panthers. It's like a cascading effect where he's the true number one. You got Adam Thielen, who is a steely veteran. He could be the number two. At this point in his career, he's not going to be a good number one. Xavier Ligat who they drafted in the first round

can be like an explosive after the catch, playmaker kind of design, manufacture some touches for him. He's not going to be a true number one type guy. And then they have a couple of their players. Jalen Coker is getting some hype. And it kind of just rounds out that receiver group. I think Bryce Young can really, you know,

continue what he did in the second half of last year, which was, I mean, one of the big storylines, obviously kind of flew into the writer because the Panthers were so bad. But Bryce Young being really good in the second half of the year. Obviously, it could be a type of thing where it saves Panthers franchise for the next five years. We're going really good? How about can we just go with good? Sure.

Pretty good. You mean Bryce Young or just Ted McGillen? Bryce Young? Like, I don't know, really good is. Yeah, I wouldn't put him in like the top 10 or anything like that. No, but he was. He was horrific to start his career. He was not a bust.

And then it was like, oh, Bryce Young, pretty good. Yeah. I don't know what to expect from. him this year. Why are you out? Why are you out? Big receivers, I feel like take a little bit of a while, especially as rookies. And I just think they're counting on him too much.

I can't remember that many guys just coming in right away built like him who are just reliable, dominant number one receivers for a team. Like even DK when he came in, the other DK, D.K. D.K. Metcalf, who I think had a, if I remember correctly, a good rookie season. But he also was on a team that had other good receivers and, you know, they could kind of ease them in. So that would be the only thing I worry about with him. Yeah. I have a receiver. I was going to throw a you.

Okay. As you know, one of my specialties is sniffing out the training camp quotes about people on a team when the quotes hit a certain level where you're like, oh, this feels real. And you can, like, Jaden Daniels was a good one last year. If you read anything about Jaden Daniels and Washington last year, every story, the way teammates talked about them, the way coaches talked about them,

the media at the practices, it was like, shit, something's happening here. I didn't have the balls to pick them to make the playoffs, but it was like clearly something special is happening with them. Yeah, yeah. So there's a first round pick that's not Abdul-Kar, Carter that there's this is happening for and it's under the radar and I'll be interested to see if you can guess it.

I'll give you one guess. First round pick. It's somebody you liked who went a tiny bit later than he was supposed to go. And it's a receiver? Oh, so now I'm giving you hints. If I tell you that, you'll know what the answer is. I was going to say a mecca, Buka. That's the answer.

Yes. Yeah. Just Google, people listening after you finish this. Google, Emeka Agbuka, hype, and read all the stories. In fact, there's one right here from Buccaneers where hype continues to rise for Buccaneers' top pick. But everyone's just like, this guy's awesome. And it's very similar to the Brian Thomas Jr. last year where from the moment he got to the Jaguars, people were like, this guy's awesome. Yep.

And the teammates are like, that guy's fucking awesome. We did this drill today and he toasted nine people and he's just so he might just be really good. which to me, like, I know, I know Worf's is out for a few weeks, but if Godwin can actually come back and be where he was before he got hurt, and you have Mike Evans there still, but then you have this other guy who could be this year's BTJ for all we know. Does that change how you think about the Bucks at all? Yeah, I mean, I think it definitely gives them the boost that they need with,

you know, worse being out and them losing Liam Cohen. I think there's just question marks over what this offense is going to be like with those types of losses. but everything that you've heard about at Macah Bucca so far, like you said, it's just been, they're not even asking people about him. And like you got players talking about him. Like he's so, so great. That's when you know.

This is like this happened with your guy, Russell Wilson. Rookie year. This is when I picked Seattle to make the Super Bowl because all the quotes were like, Russell Wilson, holy shit. Yeah. This is unbelievable. I can't believe what he's doing. And it feels like that's the case with Bigbuka.

Well, and it reminds me, it's funny, like another home. former pick for me. It reminds me a lot of Doug Baldwin's first training camp where Doug Baldwin, he was really under the radar undrafted free agent. And so obviously it's a little bit different because it was a first rounder. But like immediately upon getting to training camp, everyone watching, because in those days, you still can, you can just go watch Seahawks training camps. And everyone knew immediately like this guy's making the team. He's really good. He's probably their best receiver because he was just toasting people every day, like a big player two every day. I think that's what's happening

with a Buka. I mean, and it makes sense. He's like really experienced, great hands, really good route runner, really good blocker, high character. He just has a really high floor and that was kind of what I had ranked 13th overall in the draft, I think, and people

were kind of not quite sure. Like six, seven spots lower than that, eight? Yeah. Where do you go? In the 20s? I don't remember the top of my head exactly. Because I remember he dropped because nobody needed a receiver for like six, seven picks was the reason. And it was, I mean, I remember my reaction to the pick was like, oh, that's kind of weird,

actually. Like, I didn't expect the buccaneers. They just, I think, resigned Chris Godwin to a big contract, and Jalen McMillan last year was pretty good in the second half. Well, the GM basically said, like, this guy was the best guy on our board. Like, we didn't even really need a receiver, but we couldn't not take him. So we took him. He was the 19th pick.

But, you know, I think there was concerns that he did, number one, he's not like the most explosive guy. So I think people have sort of a bias against first-round receivers should be super explosive. How are we still doing that? I know. So fucking stupid. But he catches everything. You know, he's, he's a big body guy, really reliable. You know, I think Ohio State's all-time leading receiver, and that's like on teams with, you know, Chris Lave, Gary Wilson. Like, obviously he never led his team in receiving, but he was just so reliable year in and year out. And he kind of fell off a little bit because he had some injuries

that his production suffered a little bit he's going to be on all my fantasy teams I love him I love him what do you have that as your next one? I'm going with I'm selling the Jets Justin Fields experiment speaking of Ohio State wow

okay I think for fantasy it's going to be good so we have to delineate there because I think for fantasy he's really exciting he's getting pushed up right now I think I saw in one rank he was QB 11 so he's getting pushed up the ranks. Well, because you figure if he's 10 for 70 rushing every week.

I mean, yeah, he's going to run the hell out of the ball. Their offensive line is pretty good or it could be really good. But I mean, to me, Fields is one of those. He's a classic story of highly drafted quarterback goes to a bad team. You get stuck with multiple offensive coordinators throughout your first few years. You get traded to, you know, and kind of, it's just like it just never really happens. And I think with him, you know, you remember I was really high on him. I thought he was going to be a really good pro.

But he just doesn't, he just doesn't work quickly enough in the pocket. And I don't know if he can necessarily fix that. I think there will be good games here and there. But overall, I mean, if you look at some of the stats from last year when he was on the Steelers, 39% success rate, which was 36 out of 39 quarterbacks that qualified. 12% sack rate, which was dead last. 45% pressure rate, which was dead last among those 39 quarterbacks. backs. He just takes so many sacks.

He doesn't get rid of the ball quick enough. And I don't... And you feel like when you're down 10 with him in the fourth quarter, the game's over. That's what I was going to say next is basically like they have to have the game script that's kind of just perfect for what he does. And so as much as... If you're up 13 to 6 with 10 minutes left, it's great. Run, run, run, play action.

Then you're okay with him. So I'm in on the fantasy portion of it, but I don't know if anyone's really that excited. But this last preseason game, like, he looked pretty, there was some exciting plays and he ran in for a touchdown. So I'm trying not to let myself get too excited about the Justin Fields thing. Because I bought into the field stuff earlier in his career and I don't want to fall for it again. I've test drove. The Jets over. You know, because I had a figure. What is that right now? It's, it's low. I think it's five and a half. Their schedule is pretty hard, especially if the dolphins end up being good, which I don't think they will be. But, um, You know, I think the paths are going to be better, and the bills are in there. And then, but I can't get there. I think it'll be, though, they'll have two upsets during this season where they run the ball really well. They have a lead. They don't have a turnover.

And they, you know, I can see them being a tease buster, but I'm with D1 Fields. I just thought it was too hard for him when you actually need your quarterback to move the ball down the field and throw the ball. I just don't think he can do it. Also, they don't have any receivers after Garrett Wilson. I mean, they're number two right now is I think Josh Reynolds. Yeah. You know, and then they have a rookie, rookie tight end. You can't expect a rookie tight end to elevate an offense.

It rarely happens. I mean, Brock Bowers is a special, special player. I think it's going to happen with Tyler Warren a little bit on the Colts. Oh, he was on my, yeah, I'm having to throw in there on the hype list. Do that. Let's do that. I just think he should have been the first tight end. I like that he didn't go first because now he's got the chip on the shoulder that he didn't go first.

Yeah, yeah. They actually really need them. They have two quarterbacks that I don't trust with wide receivers at all, and they are probably going to be throwing them the ball anyway. So I just, he's jumping out to me as, you know, Bowers is above everybody and then Kittal. But then if you go into that next tier, like, am I going to pay $15 for whoever, and I can try to get this guy instead at four or five? Like, I'm just going to do that.

Yeah. How surprised are you going to be if he's the top receiver on that team this? year. He might be. Pitman broke his back last year and he's like, I don't trust him. It's hard to trust him. Josh Downs, I think he's a really good player, but who knows what's going on with this quarterback situation? I think they're going to scheme up like three to four plays a game for Tyler Warren. And that's like his floor, you know, in the sense where you're doing screens, RPO's, maybe even get him in the backfill a little bit. He did that at a ton

actually at Penn State. I don't know if they'll do that in the NFL when you have Jonathan Taylor back there too, but you know, get creative with what he can bring as a run off the catch guy and he's kind of in that I don't think he's the level of of, you know, like player that George Kittle is clearly at this point in his career, but he

brings a run off the catch ability. I think that's like reminiscent of Kittle where he's just trucking dudes, jumping over him, stiff arming him, things like that. I love them in the draft. Like, he was too high for the Pats to take it four. But if they had traded back a couple of spots and

taking him, I wouldn't have been furious about it. I couldn't believe he fell to 14. I just, there's no way he was not one of the best 13 guys in the draft. So we'll see. And the Leveland, I don't know, that seemed to be more of a higher ceiling pick, but Warren seems really, really good

to me. Was that you or me? Who's up? You? That was you. Oh, you're up. Let's see. I'm saving my big one for last. I feel very torn on this, so I'm going to just, I'm just going to send it. I'm buying the Jags Revival.

with Liam Cohen. How can you do this? There's no, there's absolutely no evidence to support the fact that they'll be bad again, right? No, I mean, obviously, this goes against my better judgment. We do this every year, I feel like. But I don't know. The Travis Hunter being able to play on both sides of the ball,

I think that will make an impact. I don't know if he's going to be, you know, a massive, massive impact year one on both sides of the ball. I think the Liam Cohen thing is really what I'm excited about the most, though, like getting a coherent offense, you know, getting Trevor Lawrence kind of into his groove, hopefully a little bit where he's not, you know, making these just ill-advised throws and doing the kinds of things that he's done the last couple of years. We were doing so well. The other thing here that I will say, and I think this does matter, is they have the sixth easiest schedule per Warren Sharp. So they're in a bad division with a good play-calling new head coach, get that bump. Brian Thomas Jr.

Explosive Playmaker. Travis Hunter, another explosive playmaker. God, why am I doing this? I don't know why I'm doing this, but I am. You should know, since you had a shitty offensive line last year on your favorite team, the Seattle Seahawks. Hey, they won 10 games. Yeah, but you had a way better all-around team. Like this, their line's going to be the combo of the offensive line in Lawrence.

Why am I going to feel good about that? Not to mention, do you, Travis at TN and, who's the other dude? Biggsby. Like, they still haven't figured that out. People are trying to get us to get the Travis comeback year. No thanks.

Had them last year for like 30 bucks. The only case for them, because I did look at this. Because it's like I'm, and I'm going to spend the next week trying to figure out who I settle on here for the out of nowhere team. Last year I had Pittsburgh and I nailed it.

Everyone was off Pittsburgh. Everyone had them third place and, you know, 500 team. And I was trying to figure out who is the out of nowhere playoff team. Because we have all the ones people always talk about. Could Jacksonville be the team? The case would be the first three weeks where they're home for the Panthers. They're at Cincinnati, who always starts out slow. And then like an upset against Houston.

And now they're playing at San Francisco in week four. McCaffrey's already hurt. and now it's like the Jaguars are 4 and oh my god Travis Hunter what a trade and so I was trying to play it out of my head and I just I can't get there but they have their third place schedule which means they get the Jets, Bengals and Panthers which I don't mind but they do have to play the AFC West and then the NFC West who we'll see if they're any good but

I can't quite get there with Lawrence to me is like you're going to have to shock me and prove that you're actually good again. But I don't know, I respect the hype. So I'm buying it. You're selling it. Can we just do McCaffrey quick? Because it's a blind sell for me.

People are trying to hype me back. Don't be surprised if he's the number one fantasy guy again. Guess what? I'm going to be surprised. The guys cannot stay in the field. He's older. And I just don't see it. And I think it's the worst kind of fantasy guy to have

because you're spending, you're not spending $60 anymore, but you're still in the 40s and maybe you're even in a bidding war with your drunk buddy and now I'm up to 49 and I really want them and now how fuck

now I'm paying 50 and then two weeks in it's like I'm having I have my Achilles starting to feel time now and I got the red flag oh no McCaffrey has the red flag what happened oh tendinitis

oh no he's going to play no he's not playing oh he's out who he's going to see a specialist I'm out I'm not doing it no thank you He's going to Germany to do some stuff. Yeah, I'm out. I'm out. We've all been there with him and no thank you anymore.

I think the only argument, the counter to that is when he's on the field. He has been the best fantasy. He's the best fantasy player of this generation, right? But this begs the question, is it better to not have that at all in your life or to have tasted it? And then it gets pulled away when they get red flagged. You're like, oh, man, I had those three weeks of McCaffrey. and it was so great I'd almost rather not know what it feels like I totally understand what you're saying though

I think it's tough ultimately you don't want to you're not trying to get seventh place in your league you're trying to get first place and so this was your this was your definite your A-chan last year this was your theory on this go for the gusto yeah and but

I will say McCaffrey and Shanahan lied to our faces last year about like what he was going to be which obviously whatever that's their prerogative but from a fantasy point of view

it's easier to do this when coaches and players are honest about kind of like where they are so I don't trust that team and then the worst part and this is something I experience is trying to figure out the handcuff situation to McCaffrey

like with a lot of players it's like oh if I get this guy I'll just grab his backup and then that way I'm insured against this injury or whatever I can still get this team's run game But now you're spending $7 on his backup. Yeah, but the end, the 49ers are the most cursed team I've ever seen in my life when it comes to running back injuries.

Every one of their running backs just constantly gets hurt. So you're like playing whackamol trying to figure out who to play week in and week out. Is it Isaac Gorendo? Is it Jordan James? Is it, you know, Jeff Wilson, who I think they just resigned. It's like, I just, and then who knows what Shanahan's, who's going to be in Shanahan's doghouse this week. So I think it's, you know, obviously the upside of, of. hitting on McCaffrey and getting the, you know,

he's literally like an RB1 and a wide receiver two or three in one spot in your roster, which is immensely valuable. So the upside is worth, I think worth betting on, but it's going to be a miserable experience for you. You're going to probably, you know,

every time a little red cross is next to his name, you know, on the app, it's just going to stress you out. So it just depends on how much risk you want to take on. The problem is there's no value for it because you're overpaying, While being worried about the red flag, which is the worst place to be in fantasy. Let's do a couple quick ones.

But before we do that, I just want to say, Shador is off the table. Okay. We're not talking about it or what? Who knows? I'm rooting for it. It would be fun if the Brown's had a good QB. But the people going nuts about week one preseason, like, it's fine just to not have an opinion sometimes. It's like, that's cool.

He wasn't a disaster. Right. Okay. It doesn't mean anything. You know, I don't know. I hope it happens for him. I'm in the camp of I thought he should have gone in the first two rounds. Right.

It's hard for me to believe he's not a starter. It's hard for me to believe New Orleans couldn't have used him. But I'm not going to be like, well, see what he did in week one preseason. Like, just stop. Yeah. Also, it's funny because the only reason he started that game is several three guys. several other guys got hurt. Right.

It was just like, man. So what's your next one? I actually just want to get your take on this. I'm selling the Aaron Rogers Steelers thing, but I want to know what you think about it. Oh, not only have I sold it, I'd knock down the house. I'm not only to sell the house,

I knocked it down for the new owner. I couldn't be more out. Shield made the key point. Brady's the only one over 42 who even played 10 games. I thought Rogers sucked last year. I don't think he wanted to get hit anymore. I don't love their offensive line. I don't think the team, I'm very nervous about that team in general.

And I think it would be shocking if he was good in the Steelers. With all the evidence we have following football, for him, for what we saw last year, to him all of a sudden being good for the Steelers and them going 12 and 5. Like, honestly, what are the odds in that? Like 7 to 1, 8 to 1? He's just going to be good. He's going to like getting hit again. Last year was an aberration.

There are, I will say there's like, and I'm completely with you on this, but there are, I've seen stories and I've listened to and I've heard a few on podcasts like Aaron Rogers kind of feels like a different guy this year. You know, he's coming there and like all his teammates love him, all this stuff. And I'm just like, I don't know. It's over. He's 42. It's over. Even if you lose like a split second of your reaction time on stuff, combined with that, the lower half of his body had this traumatic injury that. It would be one thing of his 27, but, you know, he's got a repaired Achilles.

He's the biggest guy in the world. Him and D.K. McHuff is a very funny combo, too, like from a schematic and stylistic plan of it. What about the first time he says something stupid? Or Arthur Smith? Yeah. I just think there's so many ways to go wrong. All right. I'll give you my last one.

All right. I've already talked about them multiple times in the pod. To my horror, I was listening to The Ringer Gambling Show, excellent, the excellent, the excellent, East Coast Buy a show as they did the AFC West, and all three of them got excited about this team. And it feels like there's too many people on the bandwagon. I'm getting nervous, but the Broncos were my

favorite team. I actually think they're underrated. I think they are a live chance for them to win the AFC West. I just think they're going to be really good. I think they're an actual contender. I really think that.

And now it feels like people are coming on the bandwagon because nobody can figure out another team that's like this year is basically lions of like, oh, this team was good last year. Now they're going to be this. And they're the most obvious candidate. Then Slater goes down for the Chargers. Right. And you're like, well, there's another reason the Broncos are going to be better than Chargers. And now I'm worried it looks too obvious. So I'm not selling the hype. I just wish I could calm down the hype. I wish I could create like a fake news story to get people out the scent like,

and Bo Nix might might not be able to start the season, mystery. Like I almost want to throw people off the scent. I, yeah, I've, the contrarian in me that like the Broncos hype, that is like maybe the top one where I'm just like the contrarian in me. For whatever reason, everybody just want to zag it. Yeah, 100% like

everybody loves the Broncos. And I have kind of a long running bit of I'm anti-Shon Payton, but that's like fantasy wise. Like he's actually a good, he's a good real life coach. annoys me in fantasy because he, you know, platoons every position, and it's really hard to guess, like, whoever he's going to like that week, but

I don't know. To me, it's just, you know, we saw CJ Stroud have a huge slump in his second year as teams start to kind of figure out what your fastball is and some of the best things that you're doing. I don't think, you know, I'm not fading nicks by any means, but I think there's a chance like he could be a little worse than

he was as a rookie, and that wouldn't be super surprising. Their defense, obviously is really good. Yeah, really hard schedule. Their defense, I mean, their defense is great, but with everything, you know, how healthy can they stay? Can they continue to do what they're doing up front? And then, you know, I think defense is harder to predict you're in and you're out. Like it's less consistent year and you're out. So I don't know.

To me, I'm like, I don't have like a real argument against the Broncos, but the contrarian and me, it's just like that. That's like the bells are going off. Like everybody loves the Broncos this year. And so like that's just kind of my. reaction to it. They check the most boxes I've seen for a leap team in a while, including week one, home, Tennessee Titans, week two, at the Colts, who are already probably changed QBs, week three, at the Chargers, week four, home Bengals, Monday night, and then week five at Eagles, which could be a four and O against four and O. Like, I'm already ready

for it. I like it too much. I want it to calm down. I need to like, I think, it, This is like a relationship in college. I want them to, like, be mean to me for a day, so I don't like them as much. Right. Your spidey sense is tingling right now. I think you're feeling the, you want to Zach. Too many checks. Too many check marks.

And I was trying to think what another Zag team would be, because we do this every year. And that's what I'm going to try to figure out over that. Going to be bad, that will be good, or vice versa? That there's always a team. There's always a team. Like, it's going to be like the Giants. I'm not saying it's going to be. be the Giants, but that's what I really want to figure out is, like, who is the team?

Everyone thinks it's going to be shitty. And it's going to, I'm telling you they're going to make the playoffs. Last year was Washington. Even the Patriots, I think people are expected and they're going to be pretty good. It's a team like the Panthers. No, because I think there's cases for Falcons. It's like Panthers, Jags, Giants, the Titans. The Titans is a great one.

The Titans is the one. Vegas, the Jets. It's those kind of teams. one of them's going to make the playoffs, just how the league goes. Not the Browns. Not the Browns. I've crossed off the Browns and the Saints all over the place. Those are my two cross-off already.

I think you know what? I'm not like saying the Saints are going to win the division, but the Saints have been my surprisingly, surprisingly competent team because just everyone, like for every reason. Again, it's a contrarian thing where everyone says the Saints are going to suck. Everyone thinks the Saints are. It's like a fact. The Saints suck.

And that's the way that we've talked about them this offseason. And for whatever reason, that just, you know, it, like, ignites my contrarianness. And I just want, like, the Saints, for whatever reason, they always kind of figure out a way to be competitive, especially in that division. The quarterback situation is obviously very concerning. But, you know, I don't know, maybe Kellyn Moore goes in there and they kind of just run this funky offense that people don't know what to do with and they eke out some wins. Are we even sure Kellanmore is good? No. To me, like the QB coach, the QB coach combo,

which is the easiest way to figure all this stuff out. Right. They've got to be one of the lowest. Even the Browns, because Stefansky is better than Kellanmore. Even they might have a higher number. I'm not saying it makes any sense. It just, that's the team that I've been contrarian on because it just feels like everyone is stating as a fact that the Saints are awful.

Well, there's one thing I have noticed. The people covering the team are talking about how it's, way more professional this year. We are going from Dennis Allen and whoever the guy was that Cam Jordan annihilated on the podcast. You see that? But the defensive line coach, it was the

worst coach he's ever had. Oh my gosh. No, I didn't see that. But anyway, they're over is five and a half and it's already plus 125. The last thing, and then we'll go, because I already kept you a half hour longer than I thought we're going to go. I think Seattle is in the mix

for a, I didn't realize that they were going to be good because you think last year they hit their draft a year ago as you know yeah the reasons people are off the scent this year basically like they downgraded at receiver and they changed QBs you could argue darnald's better than gino smith in fact i'll make the argument right now it's year to macdonald they had another good draft and they're in a division that i'm not sure anyone in the division is good because this matthew stafford who house of cards yeah matthew stafford was wasn't that good for most of the season last year and then got better as it went along and then was really good in the playoff game. But for the entirety of the season, like, we were

wondering what was going on with him. The Niners, who knows? I don't like Arizona at all. And could Seattle just be like, oh shit, I guess it's Seattle. Their odds are, they're plus 550 for the division. That's crazy. Nobody should have odds like that in that division. I mean, they almost won the division last year. Yeah. So I think logically and on paper, I would say they downgraded going from Gino Smith and D.K. Metcalfe to Sam Darnold and Cooper Cup. However, the scheme, the change in scheme is like the big X factor for the Seahawks this year. It could be a force multiplier for them on offense because they're going from what was one of the past heaviest offenses in the NFL last year in terms of expected pass rate to I'm sure they're going to run the hell out of the ball this year. Like that's why they brought Clint Kubiak in, this wide zone offense.

I think in theory it fits Kenneth Walker really well. It could help their offensive line start to get some continuity in terms of like they drafted Gray's able who's got rave reviews out of training camp and he looked good in this first preseason game. Looks like Abraham Lucas, their right tackle

is going to be, right now he's looking like he will be healthy and able to start. Charles Cross can be a good left tackle. I think there's some pieces there that they're working with that could emerge on the offensive line to make it a not bottom five unit, which is kind of what they've been the last few years. Yeah, I had you as a minus one before the season, but I might take the minus one off.

Yeah. Because the offensive line people seem to think, yeah, it might be actually fairly competent. It's like a scheme thing. Can the scheme hide some of the warts that they had last year in terms of like maybe this just works better where they're attacking, running the football, you know, all that stuff? And then defensively, you know, there's a, I'm trying hard not to like buy too much into the hype because this is another one that's gotten tons of press around where I live. It's like the Seahawks could have a top five defense.

Like a lot of people, a lot of smart people who know what they're talking about are looking at this scheme with Mike McDonald and some of the defense, some of the talent they've amassed on defense. Well, you have two big motherfuckers in the middle. Yeah. That, you know, maybe five teams have two guys like that. I mean, Leonard Williams was one of the most unsung elite players, I think, last year on defense. And then Byron Murphy, they drafted.

did last year in the first round. And I think he had a good rookie season. Could have a really good, you know, second season. He got hurt and he played hurt. And he was like, he was like, I think so. Yeah. And he was one of my favorite players coming in. Yeah.

I like him. I can't remember. I think the Seattle defense and the Pat's defense are very similar for me in that I actually think the ceiling of each defense could be top five. Yeah. Especially because your secondary is really good. Yeah. I mean, they have so much talent.

They're secondary. Yeah. Devin Witherspoon, another draft pick from a couple of years ago. So, I don't know, they have the pieces. I think, like, you could make an argument, certainly, the Seattle. The other one I wanted to bring up is Tori Horton. This is, like, too much of a deep cut. But their fifth round receiver is another one of those guys that's in the category of just

making two or three big plays every day. You got to send me some of the quotes. You keep hearing everything about him, man. Maybe I'll sleuth it tonight. I want to find for myself. Look up Tori Horton who. And look, I'm obviously in the Seahawks text thread. you know, streets where it's people really into the Seahawks.

But, I mean, I got so many messages and texts about Torrey Horton when they drafted him. When the Seahawks drafted him, they were like, this guy is so much better than a fifth rounder. You're going to love this guy. He was my favorite player at Colorado State. You know, it's, I got a ton of people telling me that, like, you're going to love this guy. And then everything that we've seen since then is like, he's been really good at practice. He had a couple big catches in this last game in the preseason game. So, I don't know. Again, this is like way too. deep cut for probably the national side of things.

But people are really excited about Torrey Horton here in Seahawksland. Pat's excitement. Seattle excitement. We're back, Danny Kelly. Thanks for hyping it up with me. Good to see you. And don't forget, Ringer Fantasy. So when's the big we're doing our draft on August 25th? Yeah, I think it's in a couple of weeks here.

Yeah, we're less than two weeks away. Yeah, August 25th. I'm going to be in L.A. soon. Yeah, I'll see you in L.A. All right. Thanks, Danny Kelly. Thank you. Boston, New York, New York boss.

All right, let's go. Oh, so I'd like to say, thank you to have me on, and let's have some fun. Yeah, you do the intro for me. I don't even do that. I wore my Celtic shirt. We're a little wounded these days. I got the car.

Well, you made this movie. You put like 17, slanderous Boston things in there. Maybe 15. It wasn't that, maybe. Nine? There's a, Rick Fox took a Larry Bird shot. He played with Larry Bird. author like to say, quick story.

You know, I've done several commercials for, and one of these spots. Yeah. It's Larry Bird. Which one? McDonald's? I do it with Sam and Magic, you know, and Charles. Oh, the bank ones, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. And so, I was really scared. Larry Bird. I mean, if he saw it in the movies from the 80s. She's got to have it. John Savage. It's a two-minute scene. The gentifier is wearing.

So I was really scared. I knocked down the door, I said, he said, who is that? I said, Spike. Can I come in? Come on, Spike? Sit down, sit down. And that's because, I mean, we have a commercial yet. I don't know.

This is all those. So he says, he says, Spike, look, we're good. That means so much to me. Because I never, anything, I love Larry Berg. but the thing for me was that he was positioned in the press as being the Great White Hope. Yeah. And Larry, that wasn't him.

He just wanted to bust. Yes. Right. So he didn't, he didn't know all this. I mean, I knew, but he wasn't all this, but thalogy was put up behind them. So that's what I was talking about.

We had nothing to do with Larry Bird. We tried to hit that in the Celtics documentary we did for HBO about he's positioned as this Great White Hope, but meanwhile, he's way more talented than that. And he only wanted no part of it at all. Yes. Look, I got number love for Larry.

I mean, he, he just wanted to bust your ass. And that's it. It wasn't his fault. He was put in that position. Yeah. I remember, like, going to Old Garden with the... Lydberg was at the Boston Garden at 6 a.m. And took 10,000 shots.

You know, we don't like... Yeah. And, like, we come out of the womb, but dunk it. Right. No hard work, no expertise, you know. But anyway, how you doing? I want to do it. to talk basketball first and then go into movies.

This is our year! Well, I haven't seen you. The last time we did a pod was pre-COVID at our two studios ago. You got a set up here. Yeah, now I got, now I brought you in. But I haven't seen you since the Knicks got good again. And then we had a little passing in the torch. They beat the Celtics.

Did you go to all? Weren't you promoting a movie at some point during that series, right? No, I just didn't go to Boston. You didn't go to Boston? You won't go to Boston? You know, me and coach a little good friend. He came to my office.

Yeah. There's a picture of Instagram. You can use, you know, in front of my, I'm pointing to him. He's pointed at me. We've got the Nick team behind on the front of my office.

But I love him as a coach. And I'd like to say it's a couple weeks ago I was invited to a mama's birthday party, a mama's venue, and Jason was there. Yeah.

So I just gave a hug and said, you know, wish him a speed week. I don't want to see nobody get hurt. Were you at that game? You were, right? Yeah. Did you know right away?

I knew it was bad. It's pretty close to where you were sitting. Yeah, I mean, I knew it was bad and also Halliburton and, you know, and Dame. You know,

they all wear the number zero. Do you know that? I know. I don't know if that's a coincidence or something's, I told, I sold Jason. I laid it down, you know, what it was. And he said, are you going to wear in the Missouri?

Say, yes, I don't know. He says he's going to keep it. I'm trying to figure out why all these young guys are getting hurt. Because the generation- And I'm wearing high tops. Well, you think that's it? Because I've heard the high tops theory. That's definitely one of them.

I also feel like there's way more running in basketball now than there used to be with the three-point line. Well, a lot of like sprinting out, trying to hedge over, flying over this way. I just think that, uh, there's a reason why players wore chucks. Right. Con,

converse. Well, they would just have knee injuries back then. Now it's like, it seems like everything's moved toward the feet and the ankles. Somebody should do a study because it seems like a wave of this type of injury.

And, you know, when you get that, you're out for a year. Yeah. Well, the Tatum thing was interesting because he gets hurt.

He's in New York. The best Achilles doctor is in New York. He's on the operating table 10 hours later. Dap Price was in New York. Yeah. And they were saying that actually might have been good for him that he was able to get it because that's what Kobe did too.

And Kobe actually came back pretty fast but then had a different injury. Kobe was in you and Winston. Let's push him to the side. But that's Tatum's work ethic idol though. I haven't seen you since Kobe died either. You were actually like legit friends with him because. Well, we weren't great friends,

but I had to be there. And we did this thing called Kobe Died. work. I remember at ESPN. And listen to this, though. So we don't want to put it out until you to do commentary. And looked down the scale, he said, Spike, let's do it after we kicked the next ass. And that's the game

we set the record for the garden. I had that the stats sheet. He signed and Spike, this shit was all you fault. Is that story true that he almost backed out at the 11th hour? Kobe doing work the day of the game

and you had to go to the house and convince him to do it. I always heard like an urban legend I never knew what was true and wasn't true. We were ready and for some reason he says I'm not doing it. And you had the 24 cameras

or whatever was you're ready to go. I was freaking out. And then lay a blind of something he gave me like the thumbs up. That was close. You think he was like just testing you to mess with you?

I don't know. But. it didn't matter what it was it will be it would not be what intended if oh this what you got

50 anniversary of uh I know I know but uh have a house in all this venue anyway thank God that Kobe said I gave me the thumbs up and I know we did it

you know it's that you know everyone talks about the goat stuff and basketballs against basketball players and yet with directors and actors, we don't do it that way. It's just like you basically either make some list. I like, we don't do it like that way. I think it's better,

and I'm partially probably responsible for the goat, the rank, like I've certainly, I wrote a sudden. Well, I definitely was involved. But with actors and with directors, it's more like you move into this kind of area, but nobody cares about the ranking of the area. It's more like you kind of know who's there and who's done. I think there's, I don't know what the word is,

but I'm so tired of this LeBron. There's a goat thing that's going on forever. And then you say this, well, Kareem's not in there. It's just, I don't think it's, what's the purpose? If you think LeBron is, or you think Mike Liz, you think Wilk or whoever you, you know, Kareem, good, but why do we have to spend time? like disgustingness.

Yeah, and plus people are going to have their opinion on it. Yeah, they're not going to change their opinion anyway. I'm going to tell you this, though. This is not new. I grew up in Brooklyn. So there was always a Willie May's Mickey Mantle thing. Right. So it's not new.

But it's just with the internet, it's just, it's out of control. For me. For me. Yeah, we've had good ones over the years. Mani versus Brady was good. Mike, don't get a fuck about that. He said, what are you talking about that? He said, what are you talking about?

I mean, and LeBron probably say the same thing. What, what, what is it good that comes out of that? I'm asking you. Well, I think LeBron probably cares a little bit more because after, after Last Dance, you know, last dance comes out. It's during COVID.

There's no sports. It's like this five, everybody watched that. Five-week MJ extravaganza. Everybody's in it. There's this whole generation of people who didn't know how good he was. And a lot of people were,

let's not, talking about Scotty Pippin, you know. I know, but the thing is, he becomes a hero at the end of that, Scotty Pippen, because it goes into game six when he's playing with the bad back and Jordan, you know, it is what it is. What's the guy that Phil Jackson when he ran the play for Coo Coach? Yeah. Well, but that's like, that's a part of Scotty's legacy, unfortunately.

That and the migraine, that's just how it goes. You know, Ewing has the finger roll and it doesn't go in. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, but that becomes part of his legacy. Why are you going to bring a nick into it? And don't talk about game seven against Houston. Well, did you go to game one Pacers this year? The Halliburton, the Needsmith Hint and threes, and then Halliburton. So you were at that game, right?

Yeah. So that game was on recently, and I just started watching it. And I was like, I just forget what happened. And I just couldn't believe it as it was happening. It's actually three times crazier than I thought it was. In person, you must have been going nuts. Let me ask me, were you at the two games one and two where the next one behind 20 points,

both games and the Celtics? Would you hear it? Oh, you missed that one, huh? You missed those two, huh? I was fortunately on the West Coast. Up by 20! I know. That was, I felt like we blew it in those games

because of the style we were playing. The Indiana thing, they, that Neisman's making fallaway threes. They're making some of the craziest shots, and they're all in a row. And it wasn't even like the Knicks did anything that bad. I think they missed like two shots. They missed a free throw.

Yeah. But for the most part, and he's just making like literally everything for 10 minutes. So what we're talking about? Well, did you feel like that was a fluke? Or did you feel like, because you guys were really good? Here's the thing, no,

I'm going to leave it at this. Okay. The Knicks led the league that the starting five and Nix led the league in minutes. Yeah. I'll lead it down. Oh, so you were a supporter. for what of the of the of the of the change no look i got nothing more respect for my brother tips

so why did you say the bit it's thing it's a tough business is that the closest you felt like the nicks were to winning a title since 94 is that was that team the best team last 30 years look we're up three to going to houston the game six and seven yeah it's 94 yeah okay but this is our year i'm not even talking about the past This is the year. We're coming out of the east. Well, it's lined up because you got, you guys in Cleveland.

We got a bench too now. You got Janus. And basically, he's the best part in the conference, but doesn't have the best team. My team's not going to be there this year. Probably Orlando's a year away. Don't see right this year off. It's a write-out, as you could tell by the two trades we made.

For Zigis and Holiday for nothing. Plus, you got that, were you in the third tier, something like that? We got out of that. You got out of it? Thank God they don't have that for movies. Second apron, third apron. Actually, that might be good for movies.

Maybe we'd start making more original movies unless superhero movies. Could be, could be, could be. Although that's starting to change now. I feel like this has been a nice renaissance year for movies with original voices. There's been, you know, original IP movies that have actually, people have gone to the theater to the sea. You guys are back. Directors are back. From where?

No, you feeling it, though? I had to think about what you just said. But there's a strange thing between studio films and streaming. You know, there's still kind of wonky, so, you know, baby's trying to figure it out. When you say strange, what does that mean? You mean trying to get people to actually see a movie in the theater versus being home?

It's people, with the price of taking. and some other thing, they'd rather just stay home. Yeah. And I think that this stay home thing, as you stated, as you talk about COVID, you know, there's still, COVID's not over as far as the mentality, I think. You know, and there's just a thing where I'm going to stay home. I got a big-ass TV on the wall. Yeah.

I want to drive. I'm going to get a cell. You know, I'm just going to sit home. I don't have people next to me in my seat on their phone during the movie that drives me crazy i don't have to see somebody's phone light during a big scene exactly but even with that there's nothing i'm never as a kid waiting the odds on line to see the exorcist or airman right or jaws the fifth anniversary there's nothing i mean when the film is hidden in a theater's packed it's wonderful it's so funny like doing we do that movie podcast to rewatchables and there's movies

where they weren't number one until like the sixth week like these slow builds that just now it's completely different you have to hit in the first week. Yeah. First weekend. That's it.

I'm way more optimistic than I was a couple years ago because I'm with you. I thought COVID screwed everything up. I thought it would change habits. Well, beyond that. What's more important than that? Well, I'm saying from movies stand for it.

Now, if you had a relative died of Kobe, you would just be talking like that. Well, you know what I mean, though. No, I don't. I'm saying like the structure of the movie business how they were made what the prices for them were

what the goal trying to get people into a theater it felt like it shifted over the last five years and now it feels like it's a little more like the 2010's going to let's do some of this I'm a Cineophile

first was silent movies when sound came yeah then when TV came you know it's going to kill the theater so this all this thing is like it's cyclical yeah that's the word

my brother. So I think it's, I think the biggest thing is we just need it's almost like basketball where basketball there'd be some years where there's like eight great players

and then there's other years where there's like 16. You have little classes. Like you had your director class way back when of the up and comers and then it shifts. And right now it seems like we're in a good spot.

There's a lot of good people right now. Well, you got to get in where you can fit in. What was your favorite movie you saw this year that wasn't yours? Sinners, my brother Ryan, he did the damn thing. Let me tell a quick story. He called me up and said, Spike, do you happen to be in L.A.?

I said, yeah, why? Well, we're going through the final thing of IMAX, and if you can get here in an hour, you can see it. I'm rarely in L.A. Yeah. So it wasn't a mistake I was there, and he took a chance calling me. So I'm there. I'm on the right.

Ryan's in the center and his wonderful wife, Cindy, is there. And me, I know then I could want to sit next to me in a movie again because I was acting like I was, my court side seat the guard and we were killing the Celtics.

I was jumping up and down. I was like, my mom was born, especially to see that musical sequence. With the genres and the airs, yeah. I mean, I was. happy and I'll tell it it was like I was

let's leave the silt excited I was just happy to be there and that he called me out of nowhere and then just took a chance maybe

there's a chance spike is in Illinois because this is like the final view of the IMAX part the IMAX

thing of the film and that film was transformed and that that film took me to another place and I love movies

and when I see something that's great it just puts me it lists my spirit and it's finished me was out of film this year I felt the same way I've seen it four times because we did a rewatchable

on it that's coming Monday but it just I walked out of the theater Is Ryan been a guest? Huh? Has Ryan been a guest? No no we do we do like people fans of it talking about it

but you need to get them but I saw it on a Thursday before it had really come out I had no idea. In theater? Yeah. It was in LA where sometimes they premiered early. And we walked out.

So you didn't know none that you did when they're cold, right? No, I always, I did the same thing with your movie. I don't want to know anything. The only thing I knew about your movie was it was a remake. And that was it. I didn't want to know anything else. Whoa, it's not, it's a reinterpretation, a reimagining, a reimagining. Reimagining.

Not a remake. You know what I mean. But that was. Well, it always doesn't because you said that word remake. But all I knew was MBJ and vampires and we were in the past. And that's it. And it was just, it's just so original and so creative. And then the ending, when you just walk out of theater, like, oh, my God.

Like, I don't want to spoil the ending for anybody who hasn't seen it. But to land the plane the way they did with that and the way they used the music, I thought it was such a great in theater experience, especially the way he used the IMAX and the cameras. It's really, and my guy, NBJ. Best filming here for me so far. It's really great. And it's made a ton of money. That's the thing.

People will come out if the movie's good. So we've at least gone back to that because I think it felt like the studios were getting a little scared with, well, no, we got to walk, kind of hold people's hand. And it's got to be like, oh, I recognize the superhero. Now it's like, it's the movie good or not. The word of mouth feels like it's back.

But here's the thing, we saw it with weapons. People are going to see weapons. Yeah. Everyone's saying, did you see weapons? It's good. Here's the thing, though. Even more than the past. People worry about their jobs.

So very few people in this industry are going to take a risk that might give them their walking papers. Right. And as history is shown in cinema, the people that, who have pushed the best films over this, who knows how many years that they believed in the talent, they believed in this. they believe in the story and they said fuck it you know when to get behind this film

and push it out Steven Spielborn who's got fired doing jobs you right you know so when you have you got

look it's a business though but you have people in those in those spaces in the studios and streamers that have respect

to the artist yeah and when they when the whole world is telling them don't do this film and that comes to me personally I'm getting choked up now because my brother Tom Pollock

people told him do not release do the right thing especially in the summer because you know Black Falls riot in the summertime and that here's the thing though people forget about this he just done Tom Pollack just did the last temptation to Christ

with Marty he had death threats so he cannot be blamed not doing the right thing knowing him and his family were targets for death but Tom Pollack

not listening anybody those those haters and he put the right thing to the world because nobody coming out of can

black folks is going to write all this stuff which has never happened and today it's in the canon of a great film so you got to have people like that in the studios

who are going to champion work they believe in and not and look no one wants to get killed you know but Tom Polly had people forget that he came on a last temptation to Christ he had death threats

not just him to his family and he believed in me and he believed in the film and the rest is his rehearsal it's funny that's basically the last 50 years of movies you read all the books about like no about the 70s right

you have this huge director boom and Copo was one of the ones who was like I don't need the studios I want to fund my own stuff and had one from the heart which almost bankrupted them and so we had this little dance right

I went to see a film one from the heart opening day was St. Valentine's Day where you see musical. Because you were still

at NYU, right? What do you? Was that? Eighty-two? Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. Now,

the 82, I finished. Yeah, so, well. So you had this. Oh, we go, we go to this new film.

Francis. He put all the money in that film. Right. Lost it, too. So you, it's always been this dance with,

I want to trust the director. I don't want to trust them too much. No, I want to trust them. And you see it in TV, too, because all the greatest TV shows were done by one person, right? Sopranos, one guy, succession, one guy, the wire, two guys. But the thing was not me and those people around. Well, that's the thing.

And that's what makes people not trust the actual artist. But I feel like it's happening more in movies. I think people are starting to understand, like if I just bet on somebody like Coogler, he's passionate about something, even if he's only made. Everybody has a thing now. Let's talk about this, though. Ryan took this film, the film was the script around town. Yeah.

But no one to make it because he wanted to own the rights in 25 years. Right. To get it back. And Pam and Mike DeLuca, thank God they said, okay. You know what? At Warner Brothers. Great business deal. Because they needed a hit.

And they've had a string of hits since then. Yeah. And guess what? If they have it for 25 years, he gets it back, everybody wins. I mean, I don't think that would be a new model going forward, but I think for them. I'm glad it happened, though. It's a little like NBA for agency, though. All you need is one team that really needs somebody, and they're willing to pay it.

And that's it. But, I mean, for him, now he can, his next one, he can do whatever he wants. Yeah, but you should thought you'd do every one, come on, just based upon Black Panther. You would think. Did you ever, do you ever have fuck you power with one of your, like, did you ever feel like I can make any movie I want? and get a green lid or no? Never. Never.

I mean, I never made a film over $100 million until the last one, Inside Man, which was 18 years ago, and I didn't even know it was 18 years ago since I had worked together until the journals told me that it was 18 years ago. That's the only thing, only research I did because I just wanted to talk to

and not feel like I was like following some sort of, that was the only thing I was like, how, when was the last time they worked together? When was Inside Man? I was like, oh, six? First of all, that's crazy You haven't made a movie with him since 06 Like that's your fault

Come on You guys should make a movie every 10 years Come on Look You've only made five I thought it was like 12 Coppola Scorsese and Leo have been seven

Yeah but that's not the same as Scorsese and De Niro And they've been 10 You know That's not this for me I love you know what I mean I know But I feel like you could have made one every eight, nine years.

Look at the great director. Actor, you know, you got St. Lumet with Cicino. I don't like the politics, but John Ford and John Wayne. I think they have the record. They made like 21. Ford Wayne? He has to say, at least 20. Yeah, how many Native Americans got killed?

It was a lot of time ago. Some savages. The savages. Yeah. Some of them are tough watches. But yeah, Scorsese and De Niro are probably from the last 50 years, probably the ones people would think of first because they made 10, but they also made them in different decades and their classics for different ways.

Right. You could have snuck in for one like equalizer or something, just to keep the streak alive. No one, just snuck in for equalizing too. Dennis and I were not thinking about that. And I've come to belief as I get old in years. Yeah. That things will happen when they happen.

You know, I cannot enforce it. Here's the thing. We, we saw each other in that interlude, you know, but we just didn't make a movie. You know, he has season tickets to the Lakers, long, want to me have had it with the Nix. And so we look at the schedules and when the Nix's going to be in L.A. But now, but now it looks like the Nix are in L.A. Same trip. So you get, I get to see the Lakers and the after the time get to see the Clippers.

You know what's crazy about him? Who? Denzo. So you figure like he's a leading man really starting late 80s 1990 range, right? So it's been 35 years. And usually when somebody is an A plus Lister in the face of movie poster, at some point you kind of either have to move into the old guy roles or you move into like where cruises or is basically just do a Mission Impossible and like franchise things. And Denzo could still play these original characters where I still feel like he can

He can kick somebody's ass if he has to. And he can do all these other pieces. I know. Don't give it away. I don't give it away. But I just can't believe he's kept that going all these years later. It's almost like watching LeBron in year 23. Like, I don't understand how he's still doing this.

Here's a thing for me. And I say it's very respectfully. For me, I feel Denzel is the greatest one actor. Now the Esquercase, he's going to say, the Nero. France is going to say, Randall. This is back to our previous discussion, though, about there's no answer. But it's not, you just want to be mentioned. It's not as vicious as LeBron Michael.

But I think being mentioned is the win. For me, the whole, especially more in sports, then I don't think people go wrong saying, well, Gennarone was this or just, I mean, that thing is really has gone off the charts in the sports. For me, yeah. And it's, for me, mine, oh, there goes Dave the Busher, but for me, it's, it's a waste of time for me. And I know Michael thinks that way, because we just talked about it, man. He's like, man, I got too many things to do.

I got kids, you know, I got this. Plus Michael knows who's the best, so he just didn't talk about it. And where was he born? He's like, I don't even talk about it. Where was Michael born? I thought it was North Carolina. No. He's born in Brooklyn.

Oh, there you go. Cumberland Hospital. Mike Tyson was born there and Bernard Albert King. Jesus. Commonwealth Hospital is a hospital my neighbor who grew up in Fort Green, Brooklyn. Mike? Michael Jordan, Mike Tyson, Bernard & Albert King, all born in the same hospital in the People's Republic of Brooklyn, New York. Thank you very much.

I was upset that you weren't defending Bernard's name a little more vociferously. when Brunson had like and by the way I love Brunson but he had a couple good playoff games and then it's like greatest Nick ever it's like what? Did I say that? No, you didn't say it

but that was out there and it was like did you guys you guys got to go on YouTube and watch Bernard in 84 for like two months two months just killing everybody like come on

Brunson was great you know he knows his teammate was there in Tennessee Bernie Grunfeld yeah the Bernie Orny Show both of Brooklyn Here's the thing with Denzel

though. I think he's a one-on-one. Tell me how. There's certain basketball players like this, too. I just, nobody can be the cool, you can play the role where you're the coolest guy in the movie, but he can also disappear into a character.

He can be like the dad in an ordinary people type movie, but he could also be the guy and men on fire. Like he can move. Or training day. A training day. King come! Like, Hank's had that crazy run, right? But Hank's, there's certain roles he just

wouldn't do or he just you you wouldn't have bought him in denzel i i feel like is the most malleable of any a plus lister we've had he can really literally put him in anything even in this movie like he's never played a character quite like the guy in this movie yeah i'm not gonna argue with you uh that would be my case for him i understand he he's uh it's a lesson i've Then we were five, five, Mo Better Blues, Malcolm X. He got game inside man, which was 18 years ago. And now this. The last time you're on my podcast, we told the story about when he got the first

four points off Ray Allen. If he got gave. Well, but then I saw Denzel after. I think I did a podcast with him, I think after you. And he told his version of the story. And he's clearly more proud of it than. Just about anything. He probably did that a movie set.

You know, Denzel played J.V. at Fordham. Yeah. And P.J. Carissimo was his coach. So he's, you know, he lost sports. He's a season ticket for the Lakers. I mean, way way. I saw him on ESPN. You were there, too, killing Jerry Jones.

He, he, that was him. So the script in the script. Real House won 11. Right, he's supposed to kill him. Denzel was like, fuck that. I'm just going to leave the basket. And so Denzel starts throwing up shit and it's going in. Yeah.

And we had to have an acting coach, Ray, named Susan Batson. So, Denzel's throwing these baskets, and then she's yelling at him. What are you doing when you're doing? And then Ray starts yelling at me. He says, time out. We're not going to, you say cut.

saying with the technical because he was like was he like embarrassed? Yes. Well Denzel was doing the old guy bang against you. I know, but here's a thing, no. He's looking at me. I said, Ray's

looking at me like, what the fuck's going on? I just I just show him. I feel like this. And then Ray said, oh. And here's the thing, though. The point is that Denzel him makes him

Baskas made that scene better because I wrote it is 11 Zip. It's one of the best sports, it's one of my favorite favorite sports movies scenes. You also go wide on it. And then also you got... It feels like you're watching a game. The great music election of Aaron Copeland for that too. And think

about that. That film, the music film was public enemy and the great American composer Aaron Copeland. So then, I mean, his story since is amazing. That he made the movie better. I wrote

Ray's character when he lived in Zip. But Dee was like, nah, he didn't tell me he's going to do that, though. That's the thing, though. He just did it. And the shots we were lucky. And they were going, when they were

going in. We did that movie a couple years ago for rewatchables, and it's aged in this awesome way. And it's stuff like I didn't realize, like, when I saw it in the theater with 97 some of the stuff

that's in there is where basketball is going which you saw pretty early and I don't think I saw you just how fast

things were moving for fame for high school kids the system all the money that was in place my brother

Rick Fox takes them down takes them the UNC yeah for the trip you have a couple porn stars there

but you know it's funny though now know I sit the garden. So when teens were visiting them would come in me, they'd be going by me, like, Spike, man, you gave way too much. Right, seriously.

By, you spilled the bees. We thought we had it on the lock, man. You put out there for the world to see. That's a joke with me, oh, Spike, man. You know, come on. You put two months in it, two months in there. Well, you had, so you had Marbury was your access into that world, right?

Because you, you were friendly with them? Not really. It's just Abraham Lincoln. That was a school. I mean, a lot of players. Oh, I thought, I thought, I thought Jesus was modeled a little bit. Is that an old west?

That's what Stefan said, but really, Coney Island, historically, Abraham Lincoln, that's the school for basketball. Okay. And, of course, Stefan went there, but it was not, it was not a biography.

Because something shifted over the course of the 90s. There's more money goes into basketball. What do you call it? What do you call it? Which one? N. Oh, the NIL? Well, now it's like,

now you've got to make, he got game two, and you just do another. I know. You ain't. Oh, so many people. First of all, you know I sit. You want a hundred million dollar movie. Do that. First of all, you know I sit at the garden. So if anybody want to say so, too, and the next, they come over. They would people at the foul line and guys, there's a spike. Oh, because they want to be in it. Yeah. And then also, Skyler, what's her name?

Diggs? Yeah. She's a person who says, Spike, God, do us again, sequel, but, but, but, flip. it make it a yeah she said that she was the first one to say that that's a great idea why when you do that i haven't done any remakes it's not a remake it's it's a continuation it's a reinterpretation like on duma corolla you know reimagining of him i use the word reinterpretation reinterpretation this is a continuation this is like top gun maverick you get jesus you get ray Allen in it now. And it's his daughter. Come on.

Ray Allen has said that. I'm not saying that every year. He's available. He's ready to be in it. I actually think he's good in that movie. Like, when you think of the legacy, I mean, obviously, you know this. The best basketball player performance ever is Bernard King and Fast Break as Hustler, like ripping off lines.

Like, he's the most natural actor we've ever had. You're not buying that one? I'm not going to compare it. I mean, I haven't seen it. in a long time. Bernard's good in that movie. Bernard was in a Miami Vice with Bill Russell.

Yeah? Bill Russell and Bernard were father and son in an episode. I missed that one. Bernard was a good actor. I thought Ray was good. It's not a long list

of good. Anthony Edwards was good in the Adam Sandler movie. The what? Adam Sandler made a movie called Hustle on Netflix and Anthony Edwards is in it. He's good.

What's the one that that Kevin Garnett was in? Uncut Gems. Kevin Garnett was good. Yeah, he was good. I was a lawsuit. And I thought, even though Eddie was not a good movie, which I'm sure you probably hated.

I hated it. I thought Malik Sealy was good in that movie. I thought Rick Fox was good, too. We've had some good ones. Rick is an actor. Rick's an actor. You put him in this movie. And, yeah, Coach, playing himself.

Coach Fox. Coach Fox. I don't know why he took the Larry Birdshot, though. It's not a shot. That's what. That was his... That's what a policeman would say that the guy was a Celtic fan,

so why wouldn't he get at Rick Fogg? You healed with Larry Bird, and now you're taking shots of him. I'm not taking a shot as you said before. Ladies and gentlemen, those listening home, I had the utmost respect for Larry Bird. We have to...

There's a big thing before we talk about your movie. I feel like Shalema is on your corner a little bit, and I want to make sure you guys are good, because he's become a signature Knicks fan. He's kind of... Me and him. Kind of in your real estate. Have you hash this out?

No, no, no. My daughter and my son, they all grew up together. Okay. In New York City, so I got, man, we want to- You condone this. We want to do a film together. Oh, so you're in, okay. I mean, all right, he's on your corner a little bit.

You're sharing it. It's a big corner now. There's no competition at all. He's wearing Chrome Hearts, Nick's wardrobe. Like, he's really stepped it up. Look, there's no robbery there. This is like LeBron Jordan. He's a great actor.

I'm just trying to start shit. He's a great actor and one day wouldn't work together. I'm just trying to start dissension in the Knicks Island. There's no shit to be started. I don't know. I heard he was telling people,

it's my team now. No, he was. Spikes Day was Patrick U. Why they're lying on it? Why they're lying on TV? Now, here's the thing. People try to, I know you do a kidding, but people trying to start something.

me and him are good man it's all but do people actually try to start stuff interesting yeah he's a hair parent you know I'm gonna hand him the baton but it's not

we just love the Knicks also where are you going you have plenty of good Knicks years ahead of you well God willing look he's a good guy he's a real fan he's a real fan

he's a great actor and we've talked about doing a film together you know once this schedule clears up the next Yeah, I was going to say he's kind of in demand. Well, maybe it could be a Knicks-related.

Nah, it's going to have nothing to do with sports. I mean, he's a W-fan sports radio host. You know what? I'm trying to think of something. You had to think long and harder. Yeah, let me get back to the workshop on that. Yeah, so it's you two. Who else was going on the road for those games?

You guys were the two big ones, right? It seemed like there was a little celebrity posse traveling around. Yes. guy, Al Palagonia, you know, he says next to me, you know, he has Apollo Jets, so we're on his and a lot of little players, too. You must be so excited, though, that they're good again.

I mean, you talk about sticking through the lean years. It's like, there's two fucking decades. Look, we've not won a world championship since the 7-2-7thus C. I know. How many years is that? I was three. How many years of that? My brother. How many years of that?

Fifty- Fifty-two. I was three years old. It's not 53? Well, it's going to be 53 this year. Yeah. This is the glory year. I don't want anybody get hurt. But with Tatum, Halliburton,

I'm not scared of Cleveland. They went out the first round. Right. You should probably be scared about KC. I would be scared of them. Look, well, yeah, that means we're in the finals. Yeah, that means you're in the finals. Yeah, but let's get out of it.

We're in the Eastern Division first. That's why, that's why I said. Boston and Indiana. Indiana quit us out the last two years in the playoffs. If you look at the book there, Goldman's staring at you. He missed all of it. Great writer.

Great writer. Had his seats right behind the baseline, way before me. He went to all of them in the last 15 years. Like there was no good memories. But now, and the Brunson thing, I don't know how sustainable it is with small guards to be like, to just,

do this for seven, eight years because the pounding he takes, like Isaiah was retired when he was like 32. Like Isaiah Thomas, the Celtics version, you know, he was, he was last in 2017, he got hurt. I just, he takes a lot of hits. That would be my one fair with him. Well, I don't think that's happened with the, Mr. Bruns. What do you mean? You just think he's, he's, he's just built different. And he's a crazy worker. He's, he's built like that. He's built for it. And so he's going to be the one to lead us to the glory land. You get along with his dad? Rick?

His dad's running the team, apparently. One of the team? No, he's not even a lead assistant coach now. I know. That was a rumor that was going around. No, it's true. No, I know it's Leanna World Wide West. No, I'm saying Mike Brown is hiring his home.

Is Rick Brunson? I thought he was on the bench. She's not? He's going left. Every else is gone. And you like Mike Brown? Yeah, I think that... Look, I love to...

You seem very confident. Last time I saw you, you were not confident at all. How many years ago was that? That was like 2019, 18 range. Yeah, you weren't doing... We're in 2025 now. I think you were just traded poor zingas.

You ever heard that so popular as the world turns? Yeah. I think you just traded poor zingas and you were down in the dumps. Or you're about to trade poor zingas. What happened? The next. That was the last time I saw you.

I don't know, what that's... Man... Shoot, you guys got rid of them. Well, we had to. They changed the rules on us. Oh, that rule is just for the boss on sales. Change the rules. I'm sorry we built an awesome team of assets.

Now you have to take assets away from us. It's going to happen to the Knicks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't keep these team together. I don't mind if the Knicks when we get a ring. Yeah. Well, mate. Well, so he got game two as a gender flip, I think, is great.

This movie you did, which I saw last night, which was exhilarated. So last night? I did. You had a screener? I did. No, I went to one of those screening theaters. I would have liked a bigger theater, but it did the job.

And I didn't read anything. I didn't know where it was going. I just had a great time. Yeah, yeah. I had a great time. You know what? Denzel Washington, he's been in my life now. I mean, you have to go back to Sin elsewhere because I saw him on that show.

But like, as a reliable, I'm going to go see Denzel in a movie theater. this is now 35 years it's atypical and then you two together he's consistent too yeah you two together like of course I'm going to enjoy that D and Lee

so you're doing the reinterpretation yes of the Kurosawa film which is made from American novel written by Ed McBain so United States Japan and that was Japan post war 1963

and that was shoes yeah and I mean then there's So to be owner of a shoe company, you know. I think you have to bring him back to the culture, and he's the founder and head of a record label, stacking hits. Yeah.

And he's come to this point where that music is hard to stay on top, you know, for decades. And the thing to me that really drew me to this part, behind work with Denzel again is that and what makes the novel and also Kurosawa's film

highest lowest is it when you're an audience mental this is right thing when you're an audience watching this film you put yourself in the shoes of Denzel Washington with this morality. What will you do?

I love what will you do movies. This is This is one of them. Yeah, you're sitting in your seat going, fuck. I know what the right choice is, would I do it? And that's, that's, and then when you have an actor, esteem actor on the level of Denzel Washington,

I'm sure everybody who sees this film in the theater or at home will feel the same way asking themselves, what will they do with? They were in the situation, Denzel's character, David King is in. So you've known him for so long Because I do this now Because I'm a little younger than you But I'm still in the mid-50s

But you start What are you born? I was 69 So you go back in the years past The amazing 69 mess Well Russell's last title I like to think of 609 In the moon

But Managed by Gil Hodges Ed Cranepool at first And that was a great team Bosbowl and second. Boyd Harrelson is short. Did you like that team? I love that team.

Cleon Jones and left, Tommy A.G. In center, Ron Schrabota. And right? Severe. Cousman, Ryan. Jerry Cousman. Yeah. Gary Gensry.

Nolan. There's a famous card. Baseball card. Gary Gantfrey and Nolan. Nolan Ryan shared the same. Rookie card. Yeah. Rookie card.

So. And also, sometimes for a spaceman, Don Clendon. And Don Clendenin went to my college, Warren House College. Don with two ends. What?

Don with two ends. Yeah. The reason I brought up 609 was I have friends that I've had since 1988 and things we did together, they just blend in with each other. You've known Denzel since the 80s. The first one was both better blues. Yeah, yeah.

I know before that, though. So when you think of like this relationship you have with them, does the ship blend in together? Do you remember specific things? What is it at this point? Here's the thing, though. Me and Denzo are friends. We trust each other,

but we might see each other when the lake, when the lake, when Nick's in the L.A. I'm sitting next to him and, what's the new place called? Arena. Into it, don't.

No, that's the Clippers. Yeah. Anyway, and then he might, he's in New York, he lives New York, too. You know, we come to Nick and games, so it's not like, we're best friends

but talk all the time but we're doing a film is rock south so when you've done a film when you've done four of their movies with somebody and then you're doing the fifth of them is there like a shorthand or like it's just as it new every time

we did not have to have a deep conversation about the other fours we've done no we work it's like we we work together yeah inside man was yesterday

right that's that what we have and our wives are close and our children Denzel's son was a leading black Klansman John David Washington so it's you have to be up in somebody's face

every single minute you know because if the bond is there and it's on solid grounds on trust and love that's all you need right you have to see him every day

when I did a pod with him I was all excited to go backwards and talk about different movies he made and he's the opposite He just says, like, I made the movie, it happened. I don't think about it anymore. That's what Denzel. I'm going to say this.

Denzel doesn't even look at those films. He didn't want to talk about it. He wanted to talk about the Knicks and the Lakers and the Cowboys. Denzel. Yeah, that's what I mean. He moves on. He moves on. What's the next?

Like, what about man on fire? He's like, yeah, Tommy Scott. Is it like he just doesn't care? Well, he cares, but I think it's just this process. Right. He's just on the next one. He's, he doesn't, he's in the moment. He's in the future and he's not in the past.

is gone, and you can't bring it back. It's like Tom Brady. What's your favorite Super Bowl? The next one. That stands out. What's your favorite movie? The next one. No, let me look.

Now you bring on Tom Brady. I'm sorry. Whoa, whoa, whoa, what about this? Who's this? Who's this? What's that? You know what that is. Are you Tucker?

Tyree. Oh, come on. What's this? Manningham. So that one bothered me more. Why? Because you were undefeated that year? Because they outplayed a year.

Because they outplayed a. S and 07. The Giants were better that game. Like, they kicked our ass like that game. No, that 2011 Giants team stunk. Stunk? No, we gave, we gave them that game. I'm going to get in the car right now.

No. How do we make the Super. How do we make the Super Bowl and stink? Well, the Labo game, that was a good one, but we were better than them in 11. Why did you win it? We stunk. We choked away the game.

So why do you, you're undefeated. Eli made one throw. If you're undefeated, you're undefeated. No, that was those seven. So you choose the super. Bull, the stink? No, that was 07. You guys beat us in 07.

Like that front four dominated the game. They were better. I'm fine with O7. Yeah, they, 07, we lost. We couldn't run the ball and the front four killed us. So Tom Brady was

court-sided nickname. Yeah. And they gave him a ball signed. He has to throw up in the stands during a timeout. Yeah. So Tom says, come here, Spike.

Then when this thing happens, when I throw the ball to you, you first, and you throw it back to me. He throws me a bullet like I'm gronk. Right. I'm five, six. The ball flies over my head.

And lucky it hit me. Right. In the head. Right. So the ball goal here, I run back and get it to him and he threw up and but that was funny. Do you fit, like you've been around? I also like to say this.

Yeah. I got the utmost respect for great guy. Thank you. Great guy. Great guy. You've been around a lot of cool actors, people with charisma, and a lot of cool athletes with charisma. Is there some sort of common, is there some sort of common DNA trait that you notice? Confidence.

Right. Not every athlete's not a great actor, but I'm talking about the greats and the ones that they're really, Thrive in front of the camera. Confidence also, they take direction to. Hmm. So the athletes, and the great ones, they got to listen to the coach.

The coach may call and they fuck the up play and they say, fuck that, I'm not doing that. But in general, that they listen, listen.

They start listening to their coaches when they're in the major. That shit starts. Right. Early. Right. one or whatever it is, you know. And the great ones

had the blessing of having a coach that could put them on a straight pal lay down stuff you've got to do to get there. Because you always hear these guys talk about not necessarily their pro coach but the high school coach, especially a high school coach

who made the path smooth weather word you wanted, but those those high school coaches laid down the foundation. Do you agree with that? I think coaches, especially at the elementary high school level, are like seven times more important than people give it credit for.

But now it's getting out of hand. Because they can make you either not like sports or they can make you love it. But now it's out of control now. With this travel squad and all, it's crazy. We're at a great reckoning with basketball right now. What's that? Tell me. The specialization, the A.U. stuff, the flying everywhere, the plane, you know.

Eight games and two weekends, and it's all for the, there's pressure on these parents that if you don't do it, your kid's going to fall behind. They're lost in the sauce. They fucked up everything. Well, it doesn't money usually do that? Well, that's for damn sure. But the specialization, you talk to some of these, some of the best athletes have ever had, like even LeBron played football in high school. Like, he was playing multiple sports. But something has shifted.

Multiple sports helps, whatever sport. Really. And it also helps if you're an awesome athlete. that could play multiple sports. The confidence thing, though, was there another actor other than, like Denzel, obviously, but were there other people you remember?

We were like, man, that guy really, or that lady really, really knows what they're doing. Because you've had 40 years of movies now. John Tutero. John Tutorah.

Evan Norton. Oh, you got, that's my favorite, that's my favorite Spike Lee movie. Twenty-Fenth hour? Yeah. Philip Seymoh. I mean, that movie is incredible.

We talked about it last time, but it's basically the right after 9-11 movie that people didn't realize was the right after 9-11 movie, but it is. Yeah, nobody went to see that movie when it came out. And I'm a New Yorker, and the thing about, I wasn't even in New York for 9-11.

Where were you? I was in L.A. I was trying to get Arnold Schwarzenegger. So it was like in a film, was doing what? To do a film called

Savas Joe Lewis I wrote with the great Bud Schilberg and he was going to play Max Schmelling really

so I was on left and we had a meeting the mooring that mooring and we weren't even talking

we were just looking at the TV screen so you sprinkled you sprinkled some serious New York in this new

movie I don't want to spoil it for the people to have and listen, but there's an action sequence. I'm a New Yorker. You got Yankee Stadium, you have a parade, you've got all kinds of stuff happening. And I like to say, if I can right now,

we're all saddened by the loss. It's a great, great, great Eddie Palmieri who passed. I mean, his scene where he performs the anthem, not anthem, but the great song in Puerto Rico, that holds that scene together and he just died

last week. Damn. You know that? Mm-mm. Yeah, he died. So I was thinking your first movie was 86.

She's gonna have it. It's now, too, that you've, this is your 40th year of making movies. Yeah? Yeah. 48 years?

40. Oh, 40. 4.0. This is your 40th, Spike Lee movie year. That's 40 for 40 acres and a mule. Would you,

would you have, would you have guessed that in 86? I will make 40 years of movies. No, I mean, I barely, making shit that practically killed me. So everything after that, my brother's been a blessing. Because I say this all the time,

I hope that people don't get mad, don't get mad to be sane and say they heard him more than once. On this God's earth, if you can make a living, doing what you love, you want. The joyous people on this God's earth for their grave,

haven't worked at a job they hate it. But they're going to put, Because they're not going to get their kids starving. Clos and kids back and food and a roof over your head. But that's not their dream. Right. You know, but when you get to do what your dream is, you won. You won.

I don't think you could say that enough. Because it's true. That's true. I mean, you talk to a lot of college kids and stuff, but that must be one of your big messages, right? Well, my brother, I know I said a term many times, but I mean, it is trueful. The thing that brings me joy, besides making films, I'm a cinephile, and I'm a tenor professor of film in when you go out of film school. Ernest Dix is my great deep, great deep years, those early years, and Ang Lee, we're classmates.

Ang Lee? Yes, and Jim, the same class. and Jim Jarmish were two years ahead of us. So Jim Jarmich had white hair even back then. So when Jim Jarmich, his Strange in Paradise hit, we were like, that was, we were so happy because, look,

Alice Stone was before us in Y. Marty was before us in Y. So we loved them, but we didn't, they were in our class. Right. They weren't in the building when we were there. You know, so when Jarmish, I always get my love to Jim Jarns

because he made it possible. that independence timbers way to ghost everything jim did with strainer paradise i did what she's going to have it i followed the festival thing unlike that so i'm a i'm a teacher i've been teaching you're 30 years every thursday but when i'm shooting a film i take the semester off but i love teaching class i love it and i'm not going to name people several more than several people working today. I was a professor. Not that was the only professor.

Yeah. But, you know, I helped them. And it's gratified to see young people win. You know, and that, even for a class, I have class from, I have one from one to two, from two to four, from two to five or six, depending upon the film was showing. A lot of times we have guests. And from 7

to 12, I have advisement where 30 minutes slots, students come in, I look at their films, I read their scripts, stuff like that. We had one. So we watched what was the film? Close encounters.

So lights go up. Oh, I just watched that movie. Right. It's a classic. Lights come up and then Stephen Spielberg walks down the eye behind him. Come on. They said because he was gracious enough to come to my class. Oh, my God. People went motherfucking crazy.

Just saw the great, you know, close accounts, the lights come up and he's there walking on the aisle. So anytime we have guests, we surprise the same thing happened with Edward Norton, with your film, 25th hour. So when I can, I have guests. Because I just don't want to hear one, voice. Now, Spike said, my, my, my, my, my, my, blah,

you're bringing the person that wrote the script, the person's writing, you know, the story, the star of it, the producer of it, it just makes it, you know. I mean, Spielberg walking in, they're probably not even, they're probably just so stunned. It's not even a reaction. No, they started cheering.

Like, oh, my God. They started cheering and clapping, and they were happy. And, and, uh, Stephen, he told me he really liked that, that, that he had a chance to speak to, you don't feel me. How are you feeling about this? state of black filmmakers these days, especially

the younger ones. Well, I mean, and you can't, look, everybody's excited about what Ryan has done. But he's not the only one. So it's still a struggle. And so, you got to keep on keeping on. You know, that's just the nature of the business,

you know, so. The one thing that's changed, I think, the most severely in a good way. What's that? Well, think about when you did Malcolm X, it was initially going to go to a white director, Norman Jewison, who was one of the, you know, one of the best directors.

It's done several films with, Hurricane with Benzzo. Yeah, yeah. But in that case, the way Hollywood thought about that stuff, they never even, never even occurred to people like, yeah, maybe,

maybe we should have a black director for this. And now it feels like that's shifted. But here's the thing, no. Like with all types of things. If I only add this, here's the thing, though, and not that many people know about this. That film was Norman Jewelso's film.

Yeah, he developed it, right? With, what was more of his last name? Anyway, he, I made it known that, you know, I had a certain type of feeling about that. So, Mark and worked. He arranged a meeting between Noah Jews, the late grade, Norman Jews and I, and I just explained to Norman why I thought I should be directed a film.

And knowing that we had a talk back and forth and, you know, excuse me, he bowed out gracefully he didn't have to do that the film was his the film was Normans he chose Denzel Danza's part of that film

but even before me also Denzo had done an off-roadway play the club when chickens come home in the ruse but I got to give a shout out to Norma Jus because he if he could have said Spike

you I'm directing it but he didn't do that yeah and in the early 90s, probably wouldn't have been a big deal. In fact, you probably would have been like, who's Spike Lee?

Why does he think he should direct this? It's definitely shifted a little. I had done film before. That was, no, I know, but you'd only, you know,

just say, I'm getting a shot on him. I'm complimenting. So what was the, the late great, the late great Norman Jewelison? What's the biggest movie that you thought you were going to do

that you're the most excited to do and then you didn't do? Was there one that was like your great, your big gahuna? It's two. It was a Jackie Robinson movie. which I was going to do with Ted Turner. But my approach was I did not want to do film just about 19447.

Yeah. I wanted to do a biopic. And they chose not to, but, you know, Chad would did a great job. And the other script, which I mentioned, is called Savas Joe Lewis. Yeah. Was I wrote with the great great Bud Schilberg. But Schubert was inducting. He's in the Boxing Hall of Fame.

Uh, Bud wrote Oscar on the waterfront and through Cassand I got the meat button we came very close

we wrote this script together about the relationship between Joe Lewis and Max Schmell and all the stuff was happening

it's actually a fascinating story that they became friends after and all of it and you know Schmeln was not

a Nazi but it didn't happen The first fight in Yankee Stadium, Joe then trained, got knocked out of the second fight train, not smelling out, but the thing about this, said the second fight, for the second fight, FDR summoned Joe Lewis to the White House

and wheel, said, come here, Joe, after he was in a wheelchair, and he said, these are mussels that were going to beat the Nazis with. People thought that the winner of the Shmellon Lewis fight, the second fight, 938, would determine the winner World War II. Jesus.

And it went like Joe's here and post-war Germany, Coca-Cola. America, all America wanted to get business in Germany. The war is over. And Coca-Cola needs a president, so say, like Max Maloney be president of Coca-Cola in Germany. Joe gets involved in drugs and stuff, and he's a greeter at Caesar's power. some place you know some hotel in

Las Vegas and so it shifted and they broke and Schmell was the president of Coca-Cola Jesus. It's an epic film and the right. Yeah Joe became like a

casino greeter right? He just was yeah yeah and you know he got into drugs you know cocaine stuff like that but the fact that me and Bub became really tight and this is a guy that wrote

you know what makes Sammy run and facing the crowd the film after waterfront

and there were several times where you call me up Spike did you get the money yet yeah

he's a very particular voice and I made a promise the but the great Buzz show broke that on his death that literally

I'll get this film made it never happened not yet I'm not gonna I'm not gonna lie we're getting to bud but

but we're getting this film made could there be a Michael Jordan movie because I feel like the documentary is are so good now you almost couldn't do it I wouldn't do it I don't think Mike would want to do who do either

I'm like I can't speak to him but right now in my opinion Mike just wants me left the fuck alone right just leave me alone I got my boat

I got this I got my car thing going you know just let me live my life that's why I think I give a mic because I think the last dance

is almost like the movie like if you're going to do Michael Jordan movie just watch the last dance and I don't know if you could make a movie that's you know I thought Ali

I know you were interested in doing the Ali movie at some point it's got some with Will Smith it's got some interesting stretches but ultimately like

Ali was such a one-on-one It's hard to even play. How do you play him? There's nobody like him. We've never had a human being like him before or since. You know, but look, everybody makes their choices. And so, again, I'm going to, I know repeat myself, but I made a promise that the great Bud Schilberg.

Yeah. I'll get this film. For me, on the war front is my favorite movie of all time. All time. Brando? I mean, look, who would? actor has done what Randall did and on the waterfront, I

could have been a contender. There's a funny scene where in your favorite, one of your favorite films was a mom. Yeah. Between Housower, where Barry Pepper accidentally broke Edward Norton's nose.

For real. Yeah. For real. And so the ambulance is there. The camera's here and the ambulance turn the alarm off, the whatever it is. Sign off. So camera in front of the ambulance. I said,

Edward Dorn's one, well, give me one more take. Now what? Just me need you one take. Remember how Brando walked? I think I got beat up. Yeah.

He was walking up the steps up from the thing. That's why they want you to walk to the museum. I mean, to pass the camera. Yeah. And as soon as you pass the camera, I'll call a cut, get your nose fit.

Jesus You remember when Brando They got beat up in the shed Brando had a weird hold Over all the actors From like 1970 Probably through Ed Norton right But now it's

That's one of things I always think about With movies and sports Like enough time passes And then if you're under Like do you think like Shalame Brando Brando played a boxer Right I watched a boxer in that film

Yeah I had a Delroy Lindo thing I wanted to bring up before we go. Because he's really good in sinners. But he was also really good in your movie. I feel like he's having... Five Bloods also. I think he's having a renaissance.

Also. He played my father in Brooklyn. Right. Alfie Wood had played my mother. That's the semi-obiographical. About the least growing up in Brooklyn. I was trying to think of the sports equivalent of somebody having like the run he's having right now in movies.

I'm happy for him. It's great. I'm happy for him. Yeah, because you've, he should want an Oscar for a for a porn actor for the Five Bloods, that one scene in the film where he's speaking to the camera, going through the junk and stuff like that movie. So what's your next movie?

Do you know yet? I don't know yet. And also, to be honest, I know, but I don't talk about stuff for it happens. I just, for me, personally, I think that's a jinx. Oh, I see what you mean. So there might be a next movie. Oh, I'm not done. yet.

Are you at the point now where you're like, mid-April, May, June? Probably not filming. I pick dates. Yeah, yeah. Like, we got to be going by this date. We're done by like March 29th. I have business.

Well, here's the thing though, because I got a, I'm still teaching. Yeah. So it let me off. You know, you have the fall semester and this rain semester. So they got to know, well, I'm not going to be teaching. So 40 years of Spike movies

What was the one that came out in a way that you look back now And you think That's the closest to what I wanted the movie to be Now looking back The most things went right I feel the best about this I did my job the best I possibly could have I would say I've done the best I job

I would say I've done the best I could At that time So you don't think of it that way There's not one looking back years later, we're like, man, a lot of things went right for that one. You need like 20 things to go right, right? You're absolutely right.

To make a movie is one of the hard things known to a human kind. I'd say mankind, it's a human kind. And there's so many things that are out of your control. So. Yeah, you've one actor that you cast wrong.

One scene that something got screwed up and the take wasn't what you wanted. That's why I said. hardest thing known of humankind. I think as far as you're in the art form. So I'm not saying as hard as digging a ditch in a coal mine in West Virginia. I'm not saying that. But, well, the hardest thing now is going to be to win four straight NBA titles in a row

with the second apron. That's the single hardest thing right now. Well, we'll never see it again. Well, as a person, as a Nick fan, and we haven't once to the 17th and season, we don't have that luxury of having. How many range do you got 17? We have 17 Unlike the Lakers who lie

They count the five Minneapolis ones It's bullshit Come on now Can't count those That was a great robbery It really was What we'll see what happens now With the Lakers

Because they stumbled into One of the five best guys in the league That was not a stumble Well What's your conspiracy theory I know I know a stumble I know a stumble What are you trying to tell us Spike?

I Who was that? Was that Hogan's Hero? I know nothing. Did you like Hogan's Hero growing up? It was a little, it was five years before, I was Brady Bunch, Partridge family was my era.

That was, that was, those are the sitcoms. You know what's funny though? In Crooklyn, there's a scene where I, we used to have four siblings. So we had to vote. and the part of the family Grady Bunch

were back to back and they came on the same time as the Nix. Oh, really? On W.T. Channel 9. So always got outvoted. That scene is in the movie. I'm trying to think like,

so what time would that have been? What? What time with that? So the Nix came on at 7. 7.30. And Partridge and Brady Bunch run at 7 o'clock at night? seven yeah seven 30 eight o'clock eight o'clock eight we really didn't have a lot of TV options back then

in new york channel two four five seven nine eleven that was it yeah that was it we had the same we had six in boston and that was all we had all right spike look i want to thank you and also you do a great great job man i mean you know sports you know even though you're from boston you know you don't try

What do Yoda say about the word try? I try. He didn't say that. Yoder did not say that. You know, my brother, what do Yoda say? Yoda? Yoda from Star Wars. What do you say?

There's no try, dude. Anytime one of my students, I have a stack, a Zira, a stack piles. Picture of Yoda and the quote. Anytime one of my students in class says the word try, I slap my fingers, my T.A. Plops. That piece of tape and fun of them. Boom.

That's it. That word try, I got to go. And thank you, Mr. Lucas. I also want to point out you did this entire podcast with me with the 1986 Celtics finger behind your head. Oh, a setup. You got me. I got you. Hey, any sport, Boston, in New York.

is great. Spike, I hope I see you in the playoffs with a healthy Jason Tatum. You think he's coming back?

I don't know. Well, I don't, as you said, the cheer's the right off for us. If he comes back, I just hoping to come back

too soon and hurts it again. That's the thing. We've all written off this year, but I think these guys are really competitive. And if you tell them May,

they're going to want to come back in April. I don't think if I got to go with my next thing, but what are you thinking about the next thing? this year. Go New York. Go to your go. Coming out to East. I think if it's a bet your life situation, they're the safest bet. I'm not sure I would do the bet, though. I still think the Cavaliers? I still feel like Milwaukee's going to be heard from. I know everybody

thinks that's crazy. To be honest. I just having the name's not even there anymore. Having the best guy in the conference, I still value. So I have to mention them. And then I really want to see Orlando, what those guys look together would be the other one. But you have the best chance. All right. And I don't come out of the East, right? I don't trust the Cleveland thing at all. But you could argue

that they just had a dumb playoff series. Garland was hurt. Indiana made a couple crazy shots. And all of a sudden they got bounced. But that team won 64 games. So maybe they'll have the eye of the tiger now. Maybe that was like their club or line moment. Let me say so, let me ask a question. When New York wins wins the

meet champs it's not a jinx I'm just saying we win next year I want to be on the show I'm flying the next day

Spike you're always invited on the show I want to come on a since we have not all the time I'm talking about we have a once is the seven to seven

two seasons and I want to see I want to be in the scene looking at you you're always invited you can be now if I want to be here the day after

we win so help we go That sounds great. You bring Chalabay. What? We can bring Shalema. We'll figure out your W fan movie.

Good. Hi, man. All right. Good to see you. Thank you. Oh, we left us on slow-ups. Oh, we got to keep going? Last thing.

Yeah. You're watching the film. Yeah. And how many times is Boston mentioned this film? I'm going to ask you, were you laughing when those things, one of those things happened in the film? First of all, I know. I know going into it

there's going to be ship shots fired at Boston and the movie set in New York. So I'm just waiting. So I see Rick Fox. Can I just say this? You knew where those shotguns were coming, right? I knew it was coming. So I had my boat professed on.

Well, I knew it was coming. But then I saw Rick Fox and I was like, friendly face, played with the Celtics for seven years, played with Larry Bird. He won't be part of this Boston anti-propaganda. Nope. Boom. You had him.

Then you had Tortoro. Channing this Boston sucks in the subway with 50 people Crowded subway car He did a third thing too There was three different Anti-Boston things in there I noticed all of them

Well look all I can say is Listen you stay true to yourself That's what makes you you say is I love Mother's Venue Thank you Thank you All right thanks so much to Spike Lee Thanks to Danny Kelly

Thanks to Gahau and Eduardo and Sir Rudy As well Good to have Sir Rudy back Don't forget At rewatchable's rollerball last Monday and then sinners coming up next Monday. So you have the whole weekend to watch. It's free on HBO Max. If you get HBO Max, just knock it out.

A classic, an immediate classic. Anyway, enjoy the weekend, and I will see you next week. Must be 21 plus in President Select States for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in President D.C. Gambling problem, call 100 gambler or visit RG-Helf.com. Call 188-789-77777 or visit

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