The Bill Simmons Podcast - OKC Gets Wobbled, Cleveland’s Done, and Knicks Nirvana Is Here (Maybe) With Zach Lowe and Sean Fennessey

Episode Date: May 25, 2026

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons and Zach Lowe react to Game 4 between the Thunder and Spurs before making a pressure ranking of the series and discussing role players (1:17). Then, Sean Fennessey comes on to discuss the ECF with the Knicks looking to close out the series against the Cavs (54:06). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Zach Lowe and Sean Fennessey Producers: Chia Hao Tat, Eduardo Ocampo, and Chris Wohlers The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit https://fanduel.com/playwithaplan to learn more about the resources and helplines Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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You're Tuesday mornings, Thursday mornings. I have rewatchables coming Monday last comedy movie that we did for a month of May. Animal House. Wow. Classic. Really good. A lot of great lines had a great time. So that's coming. You can watch all those movies on Netflix. All right, we're coming off Oklahoma City, San Antonio, Game 4. I love Game 4s. Game 4s are always great.

Game 4s are always like, you bet three games of feeling each other out. And then Game 4 is the awesome game. Not today. That did not happen. But there's a certain buzz for Game 4s because if it's a two, forget the 3-0 game 4s. like we're going to see tomorrow. The two one game fours, it's the fork in the road game. It's either this is going to be an epic potential seven gamer or three one and it's going to have to be a crazy comeback to get it to seven.

Now or at least we're looking. I'm just cancel your Saturday plans now because I, wouldn't you be surprised at this point if we go like it doesn't feel like one of these teams is going to take the next two games consecutively. Counter. Okay. Are we getting Jalen Williams? the rest of the way here.

And if we don't get him and we don't get AJ Mitchell, the thing that jumped out tonight was just all of a sudden, OKC had one creator. And St. Antonio, you knew they're going to guard shade differently tonight. I think that was the easiest prediction to make. Basically, like, knock yourself out. We're going to guard the hell out of you.

If you get 35, great, we're not letting these other guys get good shots. We're not letting them get going, which is what they did. But you could really feel the lack of a second creator in this game. So you lose Jaylin Mitchell. I mean, Jalen Williams, but then you also don't have AJ Mitchell either. Now all that goes on McCain, who's stunk tonight. And in the fourth quarter, Aaron Wiggins was running offense for them. It was just weird.

All of a sudden, they felt depleted. Well, the whole fourth quarter was kind of a slow motion give up by the Thunder. I mean, I know Chet came back in the game, but SGA did it. But yeah, I mean, there are game fours where you feel like, uh-oh, did one team solve the other team, even if it's a 2-2 series. The poster series for that is the 2015 finals when the Warriors went small and played the death lineup. And everyone was like, uh-oh, is this is this just a rap even though it's 2-2 and we should

feel tense about it? I'm not like, I agree with you that something happened tonight that gave me a glimmer of that sensation. And it was the combination of softening the double teams on Shay to the point that we're just not doubling you high on the floor. If you get to within 14 feet, we'll start darting guys at you, stunting guys at you, maybe a hard double here and there, but it's going to come late and it's going to come suddenly and it's not going to come every time and it's going to be a much more confusing defense

for you to pick apart because they were picking apart the traps and the combination of that plus, to your point, the lack of your second and third best creators to play off of, to throw the ball to. And it felt like, huh, and I spent the second half of the game trying to think like, if I now know this is coming and I don't have J. Williams and A.J. Mitchell, what is, what is adjusting to this look like? Like, Shea can get by anybody off the dribble and get into the 18 foot range.

But what does life look like after that? How am I recreating the open threes and the good shots that we got if they're not just throwing guys at me? And I don't, I don't know the, I'm workshopping some answers, but I don't have any good ones yet. Well, and you didn't even mention there also losing all the transition stuff. they're losing the fast break stuff because he's the only guy that really felt in good hands. It was not a good night for the Cason Wallace worth 30 million a year agent strategy. Listen, game three, I thought Shea and game two, I didn't get to do anything after game three.

I just thought Shea was just so good in those two games and just picking them apart and the way he was using his teammates. It was about as good as you can play the guard position, right? So they knew they couldn't do whatever they did defensively again. It was notable. Like his stats, Toriko mentioned that near the end of the game. His stats aren't that good in this series for how well it seemed like he played in those two games. I think he's under 40% for the series now. I mean, Wembe was the best part in the four, which now makes two games where he was the best part in the four.

And we're at 2-2, which is kind of where we thought we were going to be anyway. So I look at it like game two. I didn't love the officiating. I thought it really affected the game. Game four was the other way. I thought the officiating affected the game in San Antonio's favorite. Dort and Caruso, Dort had 4,09 minutes. Caruso had 4,012 minutes.

And it's just like they weren't allowed to have the same physicality that they've had in some of these other games. There was big free throw advantages for San Antonio. That was one thing. Wemby had a superstar game. And then I thought Castle, the two-way game he played and the stuff he was doing defensively, I just thought he was awesome tonight. just flat out awesome. The loudest 13.6 assist game, like possible, I think.

None of the guards, Harper, 7 points in 21 minutes, Fox, 12 points in 31 minutes, Castle, 13 and 30. It doesn't, like, jump off the page that any of them played great. I thought Fox looked pretty good with the ankle stuff, and Harper had a couple of explosive plays that are pretty encouraging for how he's feeling. But just the presence of them, 12 turnovers for the Spurs. That's a thing. That's a winning recipe and just a calm to the offense.

And on the other side, the Thunder finished with 33-3s attempted, but they only had 11 at halftime. And I thought that number really stood out is like they're just not creating open shots against this defense right now. And Wembe, he wasn't just... One for 11 for three for them, by the way. Yeah, he wasn't just the best player in the game for the second time in the series. he was the best player by a mile in a game for the second time in the series.

And like, that's also kind of alarming for the Oklahoma City Thunder that he's the best player by that much in half the series now. Did you think the half court shot was going in? Because I did. I was like, that's going in. So I knew it was going in. I sound like LeBron. I'm like, I knew when he took it. I knew it was going in.

But it really was like, hey, he's going to make this. I knew it was going in. But I only knew because I was about two minutes behind in the game. and our text thread blew up and you all ruined it for me. Like my friend ruined Tyrone Taylor's three run, tying home run against the Yankees last week by texting me before I'd seen it. So I knew.

I knew it was just a bunch of wows. So I knew something was going to happen and then obviously that was it. I want to talk about Wembe in one second. You mentioned something about the guards. None of the box scores were spectacular. But to me, the turnovers was the big thing because that's what killed them, you know,

especially in game two. But Fox, even though Fox wasn't amazing, at least he can take care of the ball. That allows Castle to be more of a two-way, like, freelancer guy. And I just felt like their team seemed like their team tonight. It was the team that we watched all year. Now, there's some weird stuff happening. We see this happen in a series where you just start losing guys you can trust as the series goes along.

I no longer think Champany's shots are going in. I no longer think Kelton Johnson's shots are going in. So those are two. Two pretty big guys for them during the season that now feel like they're in like a major, major funk. And I'm wondering, like, if we get to like a game six, game seven, like really like these seven minutes are going to termin our season.

It feels like it's going to be the three guards with Bissell and Wembe will be the lineup that is kind of like, this is it, these are our best five. What is it for OKC? Like, if we don't have Jailin Williams again, I assume Caruso's out there with SGA and probably Chet, but what like is it just a feel for the game or do you even feel like they have a best five at this point?

I think it's a feel for the game and it starts with do we feel better with two bigs, one big. If it's two, is it Hartenstein rather and Chet, who were minus 28, I think coming into this game. But, you know, Hartstein was carrying the offense early on with like one ridiculously high floor. That was unbelievable. Just one of the great stretches of random shot making in recent playoff history. He led them in shots tonight, I think. No, She caught him at the end.

Oh, did she catch him? Yeah, he was tied for second with Aaron Wiggins. Not a great, just not a great statistical indicator. So which two big guys do you want or is just one big guy? And then if it's one big guy, you're really like you're, you're scraping the end of your perimeter fill out guys that we really trust with. You know, Kaysen Wallace would probably be in there with Caruso. And then like, Dort has done pretty much nothing this series except. foul and miss threes and uh and um yeah the other guys are injured you know yeah if he's just

gonna foul and miss threes at least like get some cheap shots in and try to change the tenor the series whatever he's doing has not worked they played uh 11 guys plus topich at the end so they put 11 guys for real during the flow of the game but also didn't have j dub and also didn't have a j mitchell this thunder team is is so bizarre to watch in the playoffs. There's been all these cool stats about all the lineups they use. It's almost like watching a hockey team. And then he's constantly mixing and matching.

But sometimes I wonder, like, at some point as a playoff series goes along, I need to figure out who my five are, who my six are, who my seven are. It's just like Wiggins hasn't played really all playoffs. And tonight it felt like they actually needed him. So I don't know. This has been a weird one because I felt like after each game, I became convinced that the team that won was in great shape, and then it just flips,

which I guess is the point of a seven-game series. But now I honestly think San Antonio has the advantage, though. I have no idea. I'm going to wait. If those two guys are out the whole series, Mitchell and J-dub, and the Spurs injured guards can play at this level, then I agree with you, San Antonio,

despite having only one home game left, has probably an edge in the series because of what we saw tonight. And I think the Thunder's best fight five, the lineup I've been waiting to see and I think they've been waiting to use, well, two of the five are not playing right now. And the lineup would have been Shea, Mitchell, Caruso, J-dub, Chet. And I think that's the best five that they can put out.

It did not play much in the regular season. It got unleashed early in this series. And just as soon as we saw it, it's gone. And certainly the lack of any clarity on timetables for either guy has me a little concerned right at this moment late at night on whatever night this is, but maybe we'll get an encouraging update tomorrow. I don't know. The Mitchell one seems more concerning because calf strain is just automatic. You're out for at least a week, right?

We don't. If they're giving it the, you know, and you're reading the, uh, the injury stuff, like the mild calf strain, calf tweak, that kind of, this was like calf strain. So calf strain to me means seven to ten days, which probably takes him out. And he didn't look right even before he got hurt. You can tell like there was something up. The J-dub thing, I have no idea. This has been the longest hamstring injury, I think, in league history.

It feels like this is just his body has not been healthy. What do they say he's finished two playoff games or something out of the three rounds? Well, and it's weird because when he comes back, he looks good. Like, it's not like he's like he's good in game one. He's an into it. He looks 70%. He looks like pretty close to all NBA, J-dub. And it does change their team.

You're reminded, like, oh, having a giant wing who can do all of these different things on both ends of the floor, super valuable. And then he just can't kick it. And it might be one of these things that just requires a little bit more sustained off time to just disappear or work itself out. And obviously, they don't have the luxury of that right now. They're minus 250 to win the series, Oklahoma City, which I just completely disagree with. that's what that's that's updated now that's on fando yeah minus 250 wow i do not agree with that because i thought harper harper looked back to me tonight he had that one dunk in traffic where he exploded like he seems okay fox you can tell is you know 75 80 percent speed but is still able to

be a point card and run the offense and all that stuff i have an important question for you okay who do you think the rest of the league is rooting for in this series like both competitively and like long-term big picture? I think both of these teams are looked upon as, oh boy, we got to deal with this for the next however many years. And there would almost be, the easy answer is the people are reading for the Spurs, right? Because of all the officiating stuff and the Thunder getaway,

the fouls and the flopper, like they're just straight up hitting Shay with the flopper chant in San Antonio, which very good performance by the Spurs fans all around. Like you got to be, if you're going to chant like that, you just got to get right to the point and be as mean as possible. And it's a one word chant and it does the job. But I will say there, even though the OKC is the correct answer for like who teams are rooting against, I guess, the rest of the league is rooting against, there would also be like a,

who, Victor's already here. Like if they win, it's like they're already in the finals. Like, that seems, that seems fast. Oh, my God. But I think, I think OKC is the answer. You know who's rooting for OKC to lose? The Milwaukee Bucks. Oh, boy, we're going there.

We're going right there. We're just veering right in there. It just becomes a quick, honest, panicked trade team right away. Do you think that that is something, I, I'm not ready to, I'm not ready to contemplating yet. I'm just, I'm just not. I mean, it's totally against their playbook.

And we go through, All of this, they won the championship last year. Here they are two, two in the Western Conference finals against another 60 plus win team. And it's already like, well, if they lose two out of the next three games, we've got to upend everything. I know the salary stuff. I know the consolidation.

I got it. Like, we're already going there. Maybe we're, I don't know, really. Here's why we're going there. Yeah. Okay. Here's why. I'll go for a drive.

Let's go for a drive. No, here's why. This is it. If I'm okay, see, and I lose this series to a spurs team that's this young, and isn't even close to being the team they are yet. And Wembe is the difference. And I just have no answers for him. What do I do if I'm OKC the rest of the decade?

Do I just be like, ah, we had some bad luck, or do I look at it differently and go, okay, almost like how Minnesota when Tim Conley went there, it was like, I have to build a team to beat the Joker. And I think the question for OKC would be, we thought we're going to dominate the decade. That's not going to happen. How do we construct the kind of team

that can beat, a generational freak. And do we have the right team right now? Was that just a weird two weeks? Or do we have the wrong roster to beat this guy? And that's where you have to think about Janus, I think. You better know the answers to that question is we just don't have the right roster with a thousand percent certainty.

If after all the success you've had, you are willing to throw the, not throw it away, but mix it up to that extent based on the result of, of a few games and that extent is going to be minimum one of J-dub and Chet and a bunch of picks and role players and everything you've got it's the last big move you've got for a

31 year old who has not gotten through a playoffs healthy in quite some time you just you just got to be sure like yep he broke us we like we got to try something now because we'll never beat him again you got to really be sure and I agree with that except be that sure but

here's the here's the wrinkle Hartenstein, I think it's a team option for next year, right? For a lot of money combined with that they're going to have three max guys. And they have the Dort team option. And they have the Kason Wallace extension thing coming. This was their best roster, the way all the money were a chance to compete against a Wembe team. And if they're going to lose already and the money is about to go up, when they have all these picks, when they have the 12th pick in place, I just feel like you have to look at it holistically and be like, okay, this is, it's reset time.

Like, because the other thing they can do is just bring back Hartnstein at that price. If they, if they don't pick it up, he's going to go to Fraystein. He'll get 20 plus million from, I think, a bunch of different teams. There's teams that have cap space and trade exceptions and all kinds of things. Like, I promise you the Celtics would be in on that with the giant trade exception they have. So it's just, it's a weird one. And it's a weird spot to be if you're okay. see we're like, wow, I thought we're going to dominate the last five years. Now it's

two, two. What do I do? Flipside, San Antonio's fine. Like, winner lose this series. They're like, whatever. Like, we're happy to be here. Yeah, we could probably tweak around it. We'll figure out in February. They're not, there, there'd be no panic at all. Okay, see, I'd have to wonder if they panic a little. First of all, Presby does not panic. Well, well done. Thank you for mentioning the last thing because I was good. I had two editorial comments for you. And after that. Number one, really good job bringing up to Celtics, even though they haven't played in three weeks. Thank you. No, that contractually, I had to.

Do you want to do a deep dive on Vucovich and his market and whether any cap space teams want him? We know his market. It's called the, it's called the veteran minimum. And I was going to say before you, I was going to say, I have to, we have to strike a deal now. Yeah. I mean, I won't even be your guest on the next podcast because that's how this works, but

the deal was going to be if the Thunder win game five and go up three, two, you are not allowed to go through spurs packages for Janus. You're not allowed to do it. You're banned from, we can't react that way to one spurs loss. Is that, can we make that deal or you do to go off the on that way? What about, what about Trey Murphy? Fine, that's fine. That's reasonable.

That's allowed. Can we all agree, can we all agree Janus and Wembe just is too weird and probably doesn't make any sense whatsoever? But weird is what you're going for, right? Like, weird is what the jazz are going for. Weird is what you have to go for if you think this is the insurmountable alien mountain that we just can't climb. And like we got to try something different.

That's different. Those two guys together on defense, even though Yannis isn't the same guy he has been defensively as a help defender around the rim, those two guys together. It's something. I don't know what it is on offense, but it's something.

What do you think happened on Wembe on game three in game three now that we just saw game four? What was he tired? Did they just have a bad strategy? I thought it was really weird watching in real time. I know you talked a little bit about it last night, but I didn't understand the strategy at all. I didn't understand why he was so far away from the basket.

I didn't understand why they weren't playing with pace. He seemed a little sluggish to me, and it was really making me wonder, did that double O-T game? Was that just a huge tax for both teams, but especially with him having played that many minutes? Then he looked fine tonight, so two days later you throw it out the window.

But what do you think happened to him in game three? Was it pressure? Was it too much adrenaline? Did O.K.C. do something? Like, what was your take on that? I mean, without being in his head, I assume there's a little bit of all the, like, unquantifiable stuff you're talking about, right?

Fatigue, you know, this is a guy whose minutes have been pretty monitored throughout his career. And now it's just balls to the wall. You got to play 49 minutes in game one, whatever it was. Pressure, home, playoff debut, Thunder, Chet, the whole thing. But I also think it took them some time to adjust to after six, five regular season games and then the game one of the Thunder pretty much exclusively guarding him one way.

Then they go scrap everything, all of that, and guard him another way with big guys with the single-minded goal of we're not letting you get lobs at the rim and offensive rebounds. We're going to take your shot selection and shove it outside. And he, that A, they executed well. B, I think their initial reaction was the spurs were a little back on their heels and Victor was a little bit back on his heels and he kind of like went along with that. And tonight it was going to be like both he and the guards. And I thought Castle set him up on a couple early pick and rolls really well.

There was just not going to be any denying that he's going to the basket. Even if it's not all the way there, I'm just going to take one little dribble and reach and it's going to be a hook shot or he tried to throw the ball off the backboard to himself two times. Like it was just he was just not going to settle. But look, his first three shots were still jumpers. He took a fair amount of jumpers in the game. there was just a different mentality and aggression level to his game. And I think that's just, I think that's just feeling out an elite defense who threw a monkey wrench in your

plans halfway through, you know, the series or whatever. I agree with that. I think there's one other piece. It seemed like they were really trying to attack and get to the basket and get in the paint, get to the rim. I haven't seen the, we tape right after these games in, but I would guess the stats for them and the paint were a little bit different in this game.

And it felt like they were like just let's attack, throw the ball near the rim for Wembe. Let's just like go downhill a little bit more. Because that game three was just weird to watch them. It always felt like they were either going backwards or sideways and never like going toward the rim. The Chet piece, though, he made all NBA today. Yeah. What's our collective level of remorse for Jill and Duren over Scotty Barnes at this point

after the playoffs. For me, zero. I'm not taking any shit for that. I'm voting centers every year for each team. And until as long as I have a vote, I'm not changing because we decided to make this like Little League where everybody gets a participation trophy to be in an NBA team. I'm not throwing away 75 years of history because they stupidly decided to change the rules. I want a center or somebody who can resemble a center. I want each of my teams to kind look like a basketball team. Okay, I don't want to detour down Jill and Duren. No, I'm just saying, but it's a regular season award. I have no regrets.

Now, let's talk about shit. I thought he was a little better than this. And maybe he's in a funk, but I really was more of a believer than what I'm seeing. And I don't mean to do the, you know, the morning TV show. Shit, Homegrid's got to step up. Like, I'm not doing that. I just honestly thought he would have more of an impact than I'm,

from watching him this season. I really thought he had rounded into, you know, dead eye three-point shooter. just really, really severely impactful defender just elevates your team in all these different ways. And it feels like Wembe's in his head. I don't even like his body language. The only time I remember his body language like this was in the Indiana series.

I felt like you could feel him sliding a little bit a couple times in that series where the pressure, you can just kind of see it. He was carrying it. But I thought he shed that. And now it feels like Wembe's in his head. Now in his defense, Wembe is a 7-foot-7 alien who came out of a UFO.

So I get it. I'm just saying I honestly just thought he would play better than this. I think we're going to do some sort of pressure list. Yeah, we'll do that after the break. Yeah. But, I mean, not to spoil one of my potential picks, depending on draft order. Jet Holmgren has 45 points in four games in this series. He took one three tonight, despite the fact that the spurs are playing a good chunk of each of these games in like a

hybrid zone defense where someone is going to be open from three. Yeah, the guy closing out to you in the corner is going to be the alien. And I get it. And we're going to hear a lot of like, well, this just isn't a Chet series. This just isn't a Chet series. The matchup stuff for him. That's not acceptable. This is the team they have to beat for the next 10 years.

This is exactly what I'm going to say. This is exactly what I was going to say. At some point you reach a stature where every series has to be your series. And Chet is at that. Now, defensively, he's infallible. The guy's amazing. He's going to bring that. every game.

He just has, like, there was just one play tonight where they're guarding him with wings the whole game, right? That's just what they're doing for the most part. And he just sort of faced up and brood his way to like the dotted line against Devin Vassell, drew some help and kicked out to Kaysson Wallace for the only three that Kaysen Wallace made in the game. It's like, well, I mean, like, we can't get a little bit. When you're, when Shay's game is off, when the whole offense is clogged up, you can't do,

like we can't get a little more of that. I know he's, we do this with Mobily too, right? Like he's not going to put his head down and post up and get us 25 like any big man. But like 45 points in four games, it just is not enough.

I mean, especially when you're starting to lose scores on your team game by game. It's just, I just think it's been a weird series. All right, we're going to take a break and we're going to come back

and we're going to do pressure rankings for what might end up being an awesome seven game series right after this. Let's do the pressure rankings then. Let's go. I'm coming back. like Devin Vassell in a hit in a trail three on the delayed delayed break. I like that I'm criticizing Chet and then I screwed up the break that I didn't have going into

the thing. At least I didn't do something like pick my nose. Well, yeah, that was dangerous times. Do you want to pick first? It's your show. Well,

you pick first and you just took, I assume Chet's your first pick or you want somebody else? No, I would want somebody else, but I did just do a Chet thing. So we'll pretend that's my first pick. I will give you. Yeah.

I'll take Chet first. Okay. I think Chet has the most pressure. and the biggest spotlight on him now as we head into the rest of this series of where is it? He just, especially on the heels of the LNBA thing. I need to feel you more in this series,

Chet Holmgren. You know, we talked about this with Evan Mobley too, and I do feel like, I know they're down 3-0, but I do feel like Evan Mobley went up like a half level as the playoffs went along. And I just felt like defensively, I put this way,

the position therein is not Evan Moble. Moby's fault, I don't think. And I thought he rose to the occasion. I would like to see that from Chet. So what would be your first pick for the pressure rankings? Well, I'll just steal your thunder and go straight to the top. Shea has had an okay series. Oh.

He's shooting 39% through four games. Yeah. And less than 30% on threes. His turnovers are up. He had four turnovers tonight, and a bunch of them are the same kind of like, I'm just going to kind of bulldoze, my way into traffic and oh my god all these guards are awesome defensively i just fell over and i don't have the ball anymore turnovers and i look i get it it's victor wiamma right there they're the

spurs have the one guy who can fuck up all the shit you're trying to do all the stuff that works against every other team and you get into the lane you get into all your sweet spots and all of a sudden it's it's it's there's a guy right behind you messing with your airspace back there and this guy over here um he's just going to have to problem solve his way out of of this and have, if they're going to win this series, win two of the next three games, and J. Dub is going to be out and Mitchell's going to be out. And we don't know, but let's just say, I think he's going to have to have two efficient games. They're not going to be like the crazy 16 of 23. Oh my God, this is the best guard we've seen since Michael Jordan or whatever

you want to say. But like 10 of 20, 11 of 22. I just think he's going to have to dig his way out of this and problem solve it, especially if we like we talked about before, if the spurs aren't going to kind of half give him the answers by trapping him at half court where his decision tree becomes a little easier. You know, look, we were talking about a guy who's a two-time MVP now back-to-back, finals MVP last year. We've talked all season about all the historical stuff that he's on the precipice of. Well, this is the precipice.

The precipice is digging out of this series. And I'm not saying he's got pressure on him. I'm like, I'm going to think differently of him if they lose this series or he's been a flopping fraud the whole time or anything like that. but it's just like, this is it. This is the moment where if the all-time grades find a way to dig out of whatever Victor Weminyama is doing to you. I like how you frame that.

And if he has a chance to be an all-time great, it's moments like this when you don't have the same team that you started the playoffs with and you're playing a ferocious opponent. Like the best example ever of this is Jordan in the 98 playoffs. I was going to make the same comp. Yeah, Scotty's back goes. out. Rodman's doing whatever. He's getting drunk every off day. He's going to Vegas. And Jordan just is like, all right. And just, you know, but that's the greatest basketball we've ever had. There's been other good examples. Like, my favorite bird season was 87 when

McCale had the foot. Parrish had an ankle. DJ had an ankle. Bill Walton couldn't play. And Bird just kept kind of throwing people on his back. Feels like we're there with SGA. I think one thing, there's one of the narratives from coming out of this game to game five will be the officiating. and that OKC got hosed on calls. And they're fan base, and I don't blame them. Their fan base is going to say, you guys complain about us, that we get all the calls, we get the foul, we flop.

Well, we didn't get any calls in game four. And SGA got banged around by Castle and they didn't call it, but Wembe got banged around and they called it. And we want more fair treatment for MVP. So that would be a whole narrative the next two days. With that said, I'm just not really that afraid.

leaving some of the guys open that we're out there. Right? Like, I'm okay with Wallace wide open. I'm okay with Lou Dort. Caruso is the Josh Hart of this team. It's like you're going to live with it until he makes a couple. You know, they had Williams was out, Kenrick Williams was out there at one point hitting corner threes,

but I just don't know who I trust on that team. Isaiah Joe seems like they're instant three guy, but they don't seem to go in that often anymore. And then Wiggins would be the other one. but I just think they're going to guard him the same way they did tonight, and he's going to have to be awesome. But if you're doing same game parlay, the SGA points with the OKC win would be the reliable one, I think, for game five.

I think those Kenrich-Williams corner threes are really interesting plays to go back and re-watch, because the Spurs found a bit of a roadmap tonight. And look, the roadmap is having Victor Webidiyama, but this roadmap was, Shea, you pick your matchup at the top of the arc. like 35 feet away. You want to run a screen and roll and get champagne on you or Vassel on you

or someone you feel a little more comfortable with Fox than you do Harper Castle. Fine. We'll give you the switch. If you're going to beat that guy off the dribble,

cool, like beat him off to dribble. Take your two. We're not going to double you. We're not even take your two. Because if you beat a guy off the dribble one-on-one, it's not like that guy disappears. He's going to be right on your hip

at the Caden Shay plays. And then you're going to get to 16 feet. And when you get to 16 feet, a couple of things are going to happen. thing number one is the alien is going to be in your airspace a little bit. Thing number two is there might not be a double team, but you're going to see the guy on your right and the guy on your left kind of on their toes, half stunting, getting you in your field division,

messing with your mind. And those reads, those moments, I don't know what the answer is when you're in that kind of sandwich of like four guys all around you and one of them Victor Wenbanyama. Yeah. And you haven't been given a trap 30 feet from the rim, which just unleashes the past, past, past, past threes they've gotten.

But that's where those Kenridge Williams' threes in the right corner came out of. Is that moment just like that? And maybe the answer is the Thunder are just going to have to play all their shooters and hope that they make enough of those threes that they get San Antonio out of that. Because I don't know what Shea's supposed to do in that airspace or how to get him in a different airspace against that defense. Like there was that one floater he took where you could see him thinking, like, I'm Shegilds-Zal-Zal-Zerner.

I got to get something in this space. And it was just this moonball, one-handed right-handed, and moonball had no shot at going in. And it was like, you don't see a player of his skill set. Look, that unleash a shot that, like, is a no-chance-er from 13 feet away. Jaylon Williams, not the injured one, the center, one for seven from three tonight. McCain was 0 for 5. Isaiah Joe was 2 for 7.

Dort was 0 for 1. Caruso took one shot, I think, right? Chet was off one. Yeah, Caruso. One too many greatest role players ever segments for him on podcasts, the TV shows last two days. The gods had to like, had to like ding him with the hammer.

But those shots, I thought for the most part, were pretty open. And they just didn't make them. They missed 31 of their first 35 threes, right? Dort has 15 points in the whole series. And I know we're not going to him for, I think he has two threes.

And I know we're not going to him for points. Like that's not what he does. But the Thunder, when they're rolling and when they won the championship, there's just a lot of Lou Dort two for five, three for seven kind of games, where he just makes just enough to make it hurt. And he has two in four games. That's somebody that I don't feel like will be in the Thunder next year. Team option.

They've got to put money somewhere. It's a different conversation. All right. my next pressure pick. You know, you just took the best guy on OKC. I was going to say, I've left you with not much to do. Yeah, it really has to be Wembe. And normally I would say, eh, he's 22,

and he's playing with house money at this point. This playoffs have already been a massive win for him. But A, they have a chance to win the title. B, we saw him get a little spooked in game three, I felt like, or whatever was going on with him. So it's not like he's, we know he's human, because if he wasn't human, he would just be rolling through the league every game.

But I wonder as we get closer and closer to the end of this and the spotlight gets bigger. His tendency is the hotter the spotlight, the better he plays. So we'll see. But it just feels like if he has a game like he had in game one or even a game like he had tonight, then I feel like they're going to win this series with the injuries on OKC side.

Kind of up to him. What's your next one? Yeah, if he's the best guy by a significant margin, And obviously that's a big one. I was going to cheat and just go the collective of Fox Harper Castle. And only because the guard crew, the guard crew only because keeping the turnovers down is the single best way to get yourself into a game against the Thunder. And they did that tonight.

And it's been a little up and down throughout the series because two of those guys have played limited minutes in a couple games and Castle's been over tax. But if, like, I mean, you would want to single out. Fox because he's the vet, the experience guy, but I just think the three of them together have to have a very clean game, two more very clean games. Yeah, I would have taken Castle with my next pick for just because of some of the stuff I talked about on my pot on Thursday about the Westbrook 2008 to 2016, that side where he's just, you love everything he does, but there's a couple times he gets a little out of control, a little sloppy. Now that Fox is there,

feels like that goes away. My next guy would be McCain because if they don't have Mitchell and they don't have Jalen Williams and I thought he, he just didn't have it tonight, he was terrible. And this was after a weekend of everybody shitting on Darrell and oh my God, and I can't believe they traded him. So where'd you stand on that trade when it happened? I was surprised. I was certainly surprised that it was the way Philadelphia chose to save money.

I was, I just, I wouldn't give up a player. that had showed me what he showed in albeit 20 whatever games as a rookie. I was kicking myself for not anticipating the thunder being the team to overpay and get him. It was just such a perfect trade and such a perfect fit. He's sort of like their super duper version of Isaiah Joe, not the shooter that he is, but someone with a lot more ball handling juice and kind of moxie to his game. I understood why the Sixers did it. Yeah.

And that they got more return than they were going to get ever trading Jared McCain because he was not playing for their team, which is also their fault. And that he was trapped behind those two guards who were going to be their franchise mainstays. But I don't know. It seemed like an unnecessary gamble to me. Yeah. So he wasn't playing for them. And I think the case was that his stock was only going to get worse.

And you're cashing in on these picks that are easier for track. We've heard the arguments. The question remains to me is why wasn't he playing more? It's not like he was on the 86 Celtics. And Maxi was playing 40 minutes a game, and Edgecombe was playing like 39. So even if you say, well, he's behind those guys. It's like, well, so what?

You still have 96 guard minutes per game. You still have an 82 game season plus playoffs with, you know, injuries and all the wear and tear of a season. Like, why wouldn't you want to have three good guards? And it just felt like Nurse probably, probably quit on him a little bit and it was only going to get worse. And it's like, well, if we get to the off season, we won't even be able to get a first for him. But I just, it was a weird one because he did so well last year as a rookie.

You know, it's not, it's not like, it's, oh, this, it wasn't like a Cam Reddish thing. It's like, oh, he's got so much potential. He was so good in high school. Like, Jared McCain was good last year before he got hurt. So, so weird traded. And I get it that they wanted the assets, but wouldn't it be suspicious to you if OKC was like, we love Jared McCain. Here are a bunch of picks for him. That would be a fucking red flag. It's like, maybe we should keep this guy.

Presti really wants him. Like, should we be re-evaluated this? Yeah, you wonder if Sam Preston is like, yeah, you know, he's probably like he could be in our rotation, but it's a nice flyer for us. Hey, look, we have all these extra picks. Yeah, just take some of our picks. We'll take them off your hands.

And here he is in the rotation, but to your point, three-point shooting is kind of cooled off even in his big game in game three. it was mostly twos. Yeah. And you took a ton of shots, which is fine. They needed guys to take a ton of shots.

It's a good pick. Because if it's not those two guys, the J-dub and AJ, then it's got to be, someone among this group is going to have to give you 18 to 22 points. Like it's just, it's go, okay, well,

Kason Wallace was five of eight from three. It's going to have to be one of those guys. What do you have for your next pick? Do you have anybody left? Well, look, I mean, I don't know. We haven't taken a coach. Well,

I mean, one coach just, won the championship a year ago and the other coach is a, you know, was a former interim now permanent fill in for one of the greatest coaches of all time and this team 160, whatever games. I don't, you know, I don't think there's any, I don't think any seats are getting hot. I'll go, I'll go like, this is going to be near and dear to your heart. I don't know if the nuns can go to every game, but I just, I just, it's not his fault. It's not his fault, but Luke Cornett minus nine and 13 minutes. Uh, I will.

just put him in as the symbol of even in this blowout game. Yeah. The non-Wembe minutes are just are, it's, it's Yokeechy now where it's just like, I don't know what the best lineup combination is. Do we throw all the guards out there? But I'll put him in as the unfair stand-alone, uh, symbol of those minutes. I thought Cornett was okay today. He was good. This was the best game of the series, I think. I'm going with the, uh, the two ladies who, uh, their body,

from the neck down were just on camera behind Mitch Johnson. And there was some commotion about them on the internet's heading into the game. Yeah, this wasn't the first time. And I think it's going to become a talking point. I think people are going to be looking forward to game six. Certain types of people on the internets

that enjoy these things. But it was certainly interesting every time they cut to Mitch Johnson what was going on behind them. So you're saying they're under pressure? They're under pressure. Yeah, because now people are expecting it for game six. Like if spurs are up three, too. Yeah.

Did you see, I know you're a fan of watching, we can, like, with the way we watch games, we see the in arena entertainment sometimes during the commercial breaks. Did you see Mark Henry's appearance tonight? I did not. Well, I mean, if you want to talk about someone who's under pressure, I would nominate Rumble, Rumble the Bicston, the Thunder mascot, was at this game in San Antonio.

and unless I took acid and hallucinated it in one of the commercial breaks, they had Mark Henry come out from the stands. And I was like, I don't know, like, what's Mark Henry doing here? What's going to happen? And he chair-shotted Rumble the Bison and then kicked him a little bit on the ground while the Spurs Coyote, like freaking Jimmy Hart with the megaphone was like jumping around taunting Rumble the Bison. So my question for Rumble the Bison is, why did you agree to this?

Why are you at this game? Yeah, you're losing to Mark Henry. You didn't, you didn't think like, oh, the spurs are being so nice inviting me to the game. My mascot friend must really love me. You didn't think the setup was in play. And how are you going to respond? Is the coyote getting in the flight? Is the coyote getting kidnapped?

Like, how are you going to respond to this? You can't just let this stand. Maybe they're doing a home and home. Is that possible? Just throwing it out there. Now he has to go to OKC. I had a couple side note things. And then I want to ask you.

who you think is going to win game five. So there's a lot of role player, Caruso, where he stands in the role player, all time rankings, all that stuff. I see the best role player of the 2020's best role player of the century. Reggie Miller in the pregame show was talking about how important role players are. And then proceeded to list multiple guys who aren't role players who were actually just really good players who were like borderline NBA guys. He was going backwards and he was like, 2024, Derek White.

And then it was like, Derek White's not a role player. I just, there's a specific type of role player of Mount Rushmore that I think we have to discuss. And the first person who has to be mentioned anytime the conversation happens is Robert Hoary.

I just want to say that as a PSA to everybody who likes basketball, everybody has a platform. Robert Hoare has to be the first person you mentioned. It can't be Alex Caruso. It can't be Derek Fisher. It has to be Robert Hoery, won seven titles.

This was, him in my pyramid in my basketball book. He's the only role player that made it because he had so many big moments that I wrote this thing about and I was like, if I told you the Robert Horrie game is on ESPN Classic, you wouldn't know what game I was talking about. Is he on the Spurs?

Seven games. Yeah. Is he on the Lakers? Give me the team and I'll try to guess what game it is. So Robert Horry has to be first and he's the perfect example of a role player where he doesn't matter if he's getting his stats. He always has a knack for getting better and it matters.

He's always doing the dirt. work and that's to me a definition. Derek White's like a star. Like he's a really good player. Iguidala is an interesting one where on Golden State, Golden State Iguidala became a role player, like an overqualified role player, right? I think the four best are Hori, Iguodala until Caruso and I want to have the Caruso combo really quickly.

Hori Warriors Iguodala. Derek Fisher and Michael Cooper. Now, this is my lifetime. So I'm not doing Casey Jones, Satch Sanders, people like that. But I think those are the four. And then apologies to Bobby Jones, who I think was better than a role player.

I actually think he was like a notch above. Mary Ellie is definitely there. I don't know where to put him. Kiss of death, Mario. Mario Ellie is one of my all-time favorite role players. He's in there. And then Caruso. But does Caruso crack the top four for you,

like post-merger? because he's got the title on the Lakers. He's got the title of the OECC, has a chance to win another one. But you get three, like you're really in a different conversation now. You know who has three with three different teams is Danny Green. Also a very good role player of recent vintage.

Yeah, I'm going to add him to the list. That's a great one. I think we need parameters to your point about Derek White and even Andre Aguadala. Derek White received all NBA votes today. The balloting came out. He received a few third team all NBA votes.

I don't know if a role player can receive all NBA votes. And Iguidala is an all-star. Like, are we allowing all-stars? Like one-time, two-time all-stars? Drew Holiday, is he a role player? Or we got to throw them out? Well, so I guess the question is, if you're one of your best four players on your team,

are you a role player? I think the fourth best player could be in a lot of cases, a quote-unquote role player. I think it has to be five through nine. Okay, I'm fine with that. I'm just saying, like, Iguodala was a 20-point scorer in an all-star, I believe he made an all-star team in his early one, maybe in his Sixers era.

Like, Jemond Green's another one, not a role player. Like, don't put him in this. It has to be like a mayor of L.A. The team could win with or without the person. They could probably survive, but the person is the cherry on the Sunday. You know, who's your favorite random role player ever? I mean, who's your guy who just never, who never really landed on the right team.

Josh Hart, by the way, is another. role player Mount Rushmore potentially, but he hasn't won a title. But he's a good one. He's right at the point, though, is he too good for role player status? He's not a top four guy in his team. But is there a guy that you were like, man, if he'd only just landed on the right team? I'm going to just throw three names as you. Just that you, no preparation.

I know, I didn't prep you at all. Trevor Arisa. Well, Trevor Arisa won one, though. He gets one for 09. So he gets to at least be in this little club. Okay. The SNL five timers club. You get the jacket at least.

He might, he had better years than this because of the teams he was on. But I just had the softest of soft spots for Lafonso Ellis. Oh, interesting. I like that one. And same era, same team.

I just like late 90s me was like, man, these teams should be trying to get Vashon Leonard on their team. He's like just a random like a Mario Ellie kind of guy, tough. like the heat got him at one point. I just, for some reason,

I just loved Vishon Leonard. This just, again, random names. I have one that never gets mentioned anymore and should is James Posey. Oh, yeah. Two out of three years won the title,

doing awesome role player stuff. There's other versions of it, right? There's the Eddie House type. I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that fits for this. Fisher was an amazing one. Fisher had just one of the most bizarre careers ever,

was just in a million. I think he's like second or third most playoff games ever was on all these different teams. Even when OKC, he was basically a dead body on OKC and OKC, he's like, well, it's still Derek Fisher. Maybe he still has it. And they were still wrong with them. Okay. Well, can I, can I throw another name?

We're in name some guys territory. Yeah. Did Nick Batum ascend beyond this at his Portland Prime? Never won that. Yeah, well, he's, he's a classic never. Did he even make a finals? I don't think so. All right, well, we named some guys.

That was fun. Shon Leonard. Shout out Vashon Linder. Oh, Tashon Prince is a fantastic. He counts, right? Oh, my God, he counts. Yes. Okay.

Great. Who do you have winning game five? I picked Thunder and seven. I'll pick the Thunder win in game five. I don't, I don't, you, someone asked me this. I was at the Knicks game the other day, game two, and people are like, oh, do you think he's going to win? Who thinks he's going on?

I'm like, let me just, let's just go through what's happen. in the last two weeks. Cleveland, with a chance to close out the Pistons at home in game six, gets their asses kicked by a million points. And it's like, oh, the Pistons have all the momentum. They're going home for Game 7. They lose by 30 points. Like the individual games, I don't know.

I'm just going to say the Thunder because I picked the Thunder, but I will say something in my, you know what? No, forget it. Spurs. Spurs figured something out tonight in the Thunder are rattled. I'm going to go Spurs. I'm sticking with Thunder and Seven, though. I'm sticking with Thunder and Seven.

I think Spurs. I would lean toward them game five because of the injuries. I don't think it'll mean they win the series. That's where I would land. Okay. I think we're almost time to bring Sean Fennacy in to talk about the Knicks. But before, as we, as Sean warms up in the bullpen here, what are you, on a scale 1 to 10,

what are you prepared for with Cleveland in the off season if they get swept? I mean, everything, anything. I mean, I don't. Do they have one person? You'd be like, no way they're trading that, dude. No. Do you? So if they brought me in as a conciliary.

Okay. Mobley would be my one keeper. I'd want another year with him. I liked how he played in the playoffs, and I just feel like I hang nothing on him. And if I'm giving up Mobley, have to get somebody awesome back. I'm not trading mobile for Janus.

That's an absurd trade. There's no way they should do that. It's crazy because last year I suggested that would be the trade. All the Bucks fans got mad at me. I just wouldn't do it. I don't think Janus is changing the destiny of the Cavs winning the title. I don't think that was their issue. Their issue was that they have a back court of Donva Mitchell and James Hardin who can't

guard any guards. Well, I was just playing Devils Ivy because the argument for it, which you can find people who would make, I would be very, hesitant to do it to and probably not because then I've just made myself in two deals I've made myself so much older all of a sudden. But I do I do now have an interesting two year, three year window with Donovan Mitchell and Janus. That's interesting. But I don't know that I've seen enough from this team to be like, well, we're, you know, we're so close. If Brooklyn call then said we'll give you the six pick and our 2009 first for Mitchell, we'll just

take them off your hands. No way. No way. No way for who? You're doing that as Cleveland? Yeah. I mean, look, you like all these. You like all those guys at six, 2029 first, I'm assuming Brooklyn is, I mean, look,

all the pick values are going to change. And I save 50 million and all the luxury tax stuff. And do I think Mitchell is going to be on my team two years from now? Is he going to stay? I'm doing that. Well, okay. So you gave your future, you gave your consigliary self knowledge of Donovan and Mitchel plans that I personally don't have.

And he said all the right things about Cleveland. I wanted to stay in Cleveland. He signed extensions there before. But, you know, there is an interesting conversation to be had of like, with all these guys, really, like, is the next contract going to be worth it? I'm resetting. I made a run at it. It didn't happen.

I have a chance to get an Ombia guy in this draft. I keep Mobley. I reset. I reset my tax. I lick my wounds. and I get ready to make another run at it with a younger team. I would... I would love to still have Darius Garland in that scenario,

but alas, I do not. But alas, you know who we do have is Sean Fennacy. Oh, boy! Yes, what's up? So I owed Sean Fennacy this appearance because we've known each other for 14 years. I've made 100 million Nix jokes. He's also come on my pod many times after sad NICs events.

I feel like almost exclusively, almost every time you've come on, something terrible has happened the next, they've had a bad loss, they've done a dumb trade. Now everything's flipped. So you have the floor. Just tell us how it feels. Not today, Bill. It's Memorial Day weekend. I've been drinking.

I'm feeling really good right now, man. I feel like I want to go get a glass of wine and come back and just really savour this. Well, you know, it's funny. The last time I was on was the last bad moment. I've had as a fan of this team. It's amazing. I came on after what was it, game three of that Hawk series and we could not

have been more low. Two brutal one point losses. And look at us now. We're flying, Bill. Ten in a row. Some interesting stats, Zach, with this ten in a row and the point differential and stuff about teams, like if they pull up the sweep

tomorrow, teams that have only lost twice heading into a finals, some pretty interesting teams on the list. I to me, I thought whoever won this West Series was winning the title. And now you see the attrition

on both sides in this West Series. I don't even know who's going to be playing next week, whereas the Knicks are going to be nice and rested and it's just feeling pretty magical.

I don't know, Zach, where's your head at with this next thing? You talked about a little last night. I said it after the Philly series. They can win the championship. You know,

I think the Spurs is a coin flip. I think, I think full strength thunder is, I think I said, like 25, 30% chance the Knicks could win. Obviously, the thunder aren't at full strength. I think this is a legitimately really good team that has found whatever they needed to find and are in this zone now that I don't think they're coming out of it. I don't think there's a crisis around the corner where all of a sudden they lose their rhythm or towns all of a sudden wants more shots or whatever it is that would disrupt their rhythm.

I don't think that's coming. I think this is the team and this is the level. of play we're going to see going forward. And I think they're just a strange, they're a strange team. Like Brunson is a strange guy to game plan for. Towns at the five is a really interesting, tough look to deal with. And when they put sham it in, it's really tough to deal with. They're just, they're an unusual team that plays at an unusual cadence.

And I think they're going to sustain this level of play. I said after the Phillies series, they can win. This is not, this is not, you know, I was at game one, Nick's Cavs. and it was the day after game one spurs thunder and there was like some snickering going around about from some of the people you know some of the league figures agents etc. and attendance not people with the teams

so yeah that was a nice win by the Knicks a nice comeback but like the real finals is happening over there and I was like I don't think that's true I just don't think that's true anymore I think they can win Sean's head's going to explode I I've been turning this over in my head obviously a lot and I was just in Europe for 10 days and like watching games

at 2 o'clock in the morning and trying to wrap my head around what was really going on here. And I was afraid to come back to the United States, to be totally honest. I was nervous that if I came back, things would go awry. And then I just watched yesterday's game in normal Pacific time. And everything, again, they just seemed different. And I remember watching them in February. And Bill, we probably were texting about it back then. When they just seemed not together, it was unclear what Towns' role really was on the team.

He was doing the same dumb defensive lapses. and stupid fouling that he's been doing for the first decade of his career. And things came together near the end of the season. They started playing better in the last 10 or 15 games of the year. They did win the NBA Cup. It's not like they did win 50 games again. It's not like they weren't consistently good this year.

But I think also some things broke right for them in the playoffs. I think it's nice that the Celtics had to play an incredibly inspired Sixers team who were desperate to beat the Celtics. The Pistons, I think, were paid. or Tiger all season, but they also did not particularly have answers for the two teams that they played. And I got to give it up to Mike Brown, man. I don't know how much you guys have been talking about it, but he's done stuff with this team that Tibbs was not doing. And it was controversial, especially in New York, whether or not Tibbs should have been fired. And it's a huge freaking relief

to me that he was, even though I think he's responsible for rebuilding this franchise in a lot of ways because Mike Brown is flexible, man, and he plays the bench. And the bench has been a huge part of this run, the fact that they're so deep. I remember I was talking to CR before the Sixers series and he was like, well, you guys aren't deep and I was like, that's wrong. This team routinely plays eight guys, sometimes nine guys in playoff games.

And I don't know if you guys have been watching Landry Shammit for the last three weeks, but he looks like an elite bench player in the NBA. It's been amazing. Yeah, Kyrie completely quit on him when he was on Brooklyn. I remember feeling like he was on his way out of the league. I was looking, so this has been

a 10-game Odyssey to get to the point they got to yesterday. I was so impressed by how they played yesterday. And you look at the box score. And it's like if you were just drawing on a map, what the ultimate Nick's box score would look like, the Brunson had 30. O.G. Bridges had 23 and 21.

Bridges was 11 for 15. And you felt him the whole game, right? He was just, he was either running the floor or he was running in little open spaces in the half court. He was just, you felt him whereas, like most of the season,

it felt like he was just in the corner with this hand up or not doing anything. Towns was 13, 8, and 7 was zero turnovers. Hart was 12, 9, and 5 with four steals, and Shamid had 14 off the bench. They were 11 for 28 from 3s. They shot 55%.

And they had actual ball movement. And it's like, these six guys make sense together. And then you throw them McBride and Mitch, now you have 8. But it was watching this, I was like, it's felt a little 2004 range pistons to me. which is interesting because I think that was the model for how they built this team.

Like it was Leon Rose and World Wide West. West was a huge Pistons guy. Like he was a Detroit guy and that model of like just bringing in competitive veterans, guys like hitting the right points of their careers, guys who are going to sacrifice. And you go through the moves they made. Like the Pistons, they had Ben Wallace.

They signed Billups and traded for Hamilton in the same summer. They drafted Tayshan. But then the big move was they fired Rick Carlisle and hired Larry Brown. It's basically what the Knicks did with Tibbs, right? And then the Rashid Wallace deadline trade was the other one. The Knicks, they had some luck with Dallas fucking up the Brunson thing, right? That was it 4-45, Zach? For Brunson?

Dallas could have locked them down? There's a whole, I don't think we have time to dig into the whole jail in Brunson, who said what, when, what was offered when, why wasn't it offered when? This is outrageous that Dallas- lost him. Yes, there was a time where they could have locked him down for that. And if they had been a little more proactive, I think they probably could have. So

they signed Hartinstein, who was like a stopgap. But the other big lucky break for them was the Mitchell, Utah trade, which I forgot the details. Do you remember what the holdup was on that trade, Sean? No, what was the holdup? The Jazz really wanted Grimes in the trade

and the Knicks wanted quickly in the trade. And it became like, well, it's either 3M protected first, or two first and are protected, depending on who is in it. And then they said, fuck you and took the Cleveland trade. Zach, if they have Mitchell and Brunson, does that team make sense to you? Plus, you don't have all the extra picks to trade for bridges. I was also going back and rereading the Donovan Mitchell trade stuff for different reasons.

But I remember thinking at the time, and Ian Begley was is and was the most plugged in Nick's guy at the time. And he had a lot of the details about, well, this offer was made here at this time. timeline and was there a pick here? And it's just like, it just made me think, did the Knicks really want to do this? Right. They want to do it on their terms almost versus actually wanting to do it. Because they knew the question you just asked me about like these two guards,

small score firsts, like, is this actually going to work? And if we use all these assets here, what do we have left for stuff down the line? I look, I'm sure there was part of their front office that really wanted to do it. and there was debate internally about this pick, that pick. But the bottom line is they did not go as all in as they needed to go all in. And I think it unquestionably, it unquestionably, the roads not taken for them are, are that, are in Bede. And obviously, Janus is the one that has to Sean's point halfway through the season. All the discourse was while they blew it with McHalebridge, they don't have picks for Janus, they're hopeless.

And, you know, they're just kind of stuck. I was re-listening to the live show I did in Brooklyn. because I felt at the time it was mid-March and I felt like the whole show was me giving Knicks fans a pep talk like no you guys are you guys are third in offense

six in defense I know it's been a little rocky but like who's beating you in the east because it felt like Nick's fans needed a pep talk I was like I don't Sean needed one I could tell you that much

I didn't have huge expectations for the playoffs I thought they should definitely beat the Hawks and then after that I thought it was a crap shoot because I thought any any of those top five teams. A lot of things also like the magic, not having to deal with the magic, and then the magic kind of falling apart

was another thing that went their way. There were a million things that went their way. To the point about Donovan Mitchell, if they had acquired him and they tried to pair them together, I think it might have been a somewhat similar situation that Brunson had to contend with through the first four seasons of his professional career, essentially playing behind Luca.

And so you could say like the Mavs mismanaged that scenario, or maybe there was nothing they really could have done by just having a superstar backup point guard behind the single best backcourt player in the sport. But you just can't under, like, overstate who and what Brunson is. There's just, there has never been a New York Nick like him. There are very few players in the NBA like him. I think, like, maybe now finally NBA fans who, like, even if they deep down hate the Knicks,

like, you can't watch him for nine consecutive fourth quarter. and consistently watch him just take over games and be unguardable. I mean, his shot making, he's been doing this since he came to the Knicks. This is not new. It's like it's the supporting cast that you just described, Bill. It's those guys, those pivotal moves that they've made, acquiring OG, acquiring McHale, you know, building up Robinson so that he could play 65 games in a season, acquiring Cat.

All of that stuff has changed. Brunson's been basically the same guy who scores 27 points a game, who is fearless down the stretch, who always puts the team on a game. his shoulders. And when the team isn't going well, we can point to him and say, oh, well, you know, it's, it's ISO ball and it's all Brunson and he's taking nine of 13 shots in the fourth quarter. But when they're going good and when the supporting cast looks good, that works. And it's going to, it has been working throughout this playoffs. And I genuinely, you know, you can talk about like Walt Clyde Frazier. You know, like there's a, there's, Earl Monroe. It's a very short list of guys

that he is now getting into the conversation with after just five seasons. Yeah. And. And I don't know. It's making my head spin. When we picked him up, I was, I was not against the move at all. It was obviously a very savvy contract. But never in my wildest dreams that I ever think he would become this person to the franchise. We all like Brunson. I think that Knicks felt like he could be this guy.

I do think Leona West did feel that way. I thought that was crazy. I clearly thought he, I might have even said it in the pods. Like, this guy could be one of the best three guys on a Final Four team. Like, there's no question. I didn't think he could be what he became. You're talking about, like, for an entire generation of Knicks fans, well, multiple generations, but if you're talking about, like, 30 and under Knicks fans, like,

this is like they're David Ortiz, basically. If they win the title, he becomes David Ortiz. One of the things about how they put the team together, they were cutthroat a couple times. The town's trade was cutthroat. Like, Randall was like their guy. Like, they brought him in. They gave him a big extension.

went and signed DeFecenzo. They traded, I think, would they trade Topin to have the Deep Cenzzo money? Villanova guy. This is our crew now. And then they had a chance to get towns. And they just like slit their throats basically when got towns. That was cutthroat. And then the tips firing.

Kind of have to do that sometimes. You know, there's a difference between being desperate and cutthroat. Those were two moves that were probably the right moves. But it's still like, I don't know if all teams make. those moves, Zach? No. It's like what we talked earlier where if OKC is like,

Czech can't defend Wembe, we're trading them. And it's just like, we're cutting his throat. Some teams won't do it. No, the town's one was a risk. And it's one that has gone up and down like halfway through the season.

It looked like, did Minnesota, like kind of win this trade? Cats all over the place. And like Randall's playing really well and Devenzsche's essential. And now it's like swung. totally the other way. But it was a ceiling bet.

It was a, we need to take some risk of absorbing this contract because if it works, our ceiling goes up a level that Randall and DiVincenzo

just can't take, they need it a center. You need it a center and you need a five who can shoot. And yeah, I mean, they've been, and it Obey was the guy

they clearly just targeted and Brunson, I remember, I was with you guys. I mean, I remember vividly doing on my old podcast, like,

that deal was slammed, like really unpopular contract in a lot of corners. And I remember saying, I don't, I don't love it, but it's like a BB plus. Like,

Jalen Brunson's a really good player. And like, it's a lot at that time, but like it's a BB plus contract. Obviously, in retrospect, it was an A plus plus. What was it?

Was it four for 100? What was it? A little more than that. Yeah. 106. I was on the bullish side for it, but I also was like, yeah,

it's, guys career average is 11 points a game. You know, it's definitely on the higher I do think we're all overlooking just a huge story here and a huge fly in the ointment. Shalame? No, even more dire than the celebrity fandom of the next. The return of Shalemay to being on TV and stuff?

Which my dad, by the way, hates. He's like, I don't understand. Do they pay for their tickets? Why do all these rich people get free stuff? I don't like it. Even more dire. And, Sean, I think you need to be worried. I think you need to be on higher alert.

Oh, no. I don't know if you're not. know this, but the calves have won the shock quality battle through three games in this series. I think I think you guys are actually on the ropes here. I think if you look at the tracking, look at the tracking data, it's neck and neck, but the calves have a slight edge in shock quality. And let me tell you, I think the league is going to retroactively go back and look at the shock quality and flip the results of these games.

And you might be down to one tomorrow and he's like, I wouldn't get too excited about the finals just yet. Or the cats get home more straight. deceiving 3-0, Sean. Don't get comfy. I did see that interview with Kenny Atkinson today, which was very amusing. Let's just say it's been passed around amongst Nick's fans.

Listen, I... Are you scared, Sean? Are you scared of what the next four games portend because of this? What I don't want is to say something stupid, and then all of a sudden this series is 3-3, and I'm getting clipped by like Cavs-Busting Genius, you know, on X.com. I'm very excited about how well they've played.

And you know what? As a dork who looks at exit VLO and hard hit rate and baseball, I do I do like trick myself into thinking that that shit matters. But like, look, the Cavs just haven't been able to hit threes in this series, but also the Knicks play great defense. So both things can be true. Look, if you played those games 150,000 times, it might be a different result. Unfortunately, Sean, this is the result that actually matters.

and it's 3-0. And the fact is that Timothy Shalomey was court-side for two of those games. So maybe he's in Donovan Mitchell's head. Have we considered that? Maybe he's in James Hardin's head. Very possible.

Here's the other thing. Game 4 is already over because there was a play at the end of game three that made me convince the Knicks are going to sweep them. That Jalen Brunson hesitation layup when all five calves

just decided they weren't going to move anywhere. That's the kind of thing that happens when you're going home in two days. I don't think you can come back from that. They kind of quit. In the fourth quarter, they kind of quit. It was a quitting is what was going on. Yeah.

And I think the Nix can smell it. And the Nix, and Sean, this is the prolog of my book, the secret. The Nicks, part of the problem with them during the season is everybody was having a sacrifice stuff. And there were all these different times when people didn't seem that happy about the sacrificing. Those guys are all locked in now. I don't know how it happened over these last 10 games, but it happened. And that's the great thing about sports when you watch it happen in real time. I think obviously OG was unstoppable until he got injured,

but the secret is what you already talked about, which is that Bridges shooting 75% from the field and being back to that mid-range guy and also being really comfortable as basically the second option offensively. Yeah. Has just totally transformed the offense for them. The early story was Cat being Point Cat, but that has kind of moved out recently,

and Bridges just having much more usage in the offense makes them way more dynamic and scary. I mean, they're going to match up totally differently though, with either of the two teams in the West, assuming they go forward. Like, it's going to be a different looking offense, and it's going to be harder, I think, for Brunson to get some of those baskets that he's been getting in the last two series. But I have to enjoy this. I mean, it's 53 years since the Knicks have won a title.

It's 27 years since they've been in the NBA finals. It's 40 years since a team that I root for of the three major sports has won a title. 40 years. Like, this is very rare, and it's extremely rare to watch a team that I can't. care about just motherfucker teams. I mean, it's just amazing how they're just dominating for the last three weeks. And so

I'm such an embittered and cynical sports fan. I really just got to look myself in the mirror and be like, have some gratitude, you asshole, because this is super special. I got this email from Yuval and Israel. I'm going to read it to you. I remember the Mavs were

two-two in the first round against the Brandon Roy Blazers and people were saying, Dirk, as choking again. That was before the 2011 Mavs had one of the most beloved championship runs ever. Something clicked. They went on this crazy one. When 10 won the rest of the way in the West, almost every Mavs part of a moment, Perea, Chandler, Pesha, even Deshaun, Stevenson, he beat the villains of the league the heat without home court. The Knicks have a chance to do something similar if they take out OKC. If they actually win it, will this championship be as universally

beloved as the 2011 Mavs run. This is an interesting one because it's a New York team, right? Dallas, everybody loved Dirk, including Zach Lowe. Everybody had kind of given up on him having a moment like that. And then he just fucking went Clint Eastwood on the 2011 playoffs. And series by series just took people out. And then they took out this heat team that everybody was annoyed by. Zach, do you see the parallels?

else, if it was OKC during this whole flop thing at this moment they're having the back to back and then this Knicks team that comes out of nowhere, do you think it would be as beloved as that Mavs title? Well, it's interesting you asked that because I saw Ethan Strauss write this column this week about like basically why is this not a bigger story that the team in the biggest city and the biggest market is doing this? And I'm like, maybe I'd just live in the wrong place because it's like the defining story of my life.

I feel like it's a massive story. 24 hours a day. So I think it could be, I mean, they're like the Knicks don't have a dirk who's like been just beaten down and been close to the mountain top and shoved off and is like entering the back nine of his career. And this might be his last chance. And that was also a collection of vets. But Brunson is as like the small guy underdog and small guys aren't supposed to win titles kind of. No, I'm just giving you the counters before I hammer it. And the other counter is like there are just some some people who don't.

like New York City and don't like New York and it's too big and all the famous people. I think it would be, if not as universally beloved, almost so and like such a rapturous moment around the league because it is New York, because it is the Knicks. And it may depend a little bit on who they play in the finals because the Thunder have a whiff of a different kind of villainousness to them, at least in the way they're perceived around the league, not the same as that Miami team. But there are just some parts of the country, fans and parts of the country who hate New York and be like, oh boy, the big bad Knicks.

And we have to listen to everyone talk about New York. And the Yankees will probably win the World Series and we'll do it all again. Well, that would be terrible. But I think the Knicks are their own unique thing in New York City because of the sport. It's the city's game. They're the city's team. And it's been so goddamn long that I think it would be as rapturous as the Mavs one. I think there's one other components to this too, which is if this had

happened last season, it might have felt a little bit different because it would have felt like they were vanquishing teams that they had not beaten before. So obviously that Boston series, sorry, Bill, was like euphoric for Knicks fans because we were underdogs in that series for real. And that was a really triumphant series win. And then they got their hearts ripped out in game one of the Pacers series. And that series was effectively over. And obviously, the Pacers have given the Knicks fits over the years in the playoffs. And so if they had gone to the finals after that run, it would have felt different than this, where they're basically dispatching a bunch of teams

that they've already beaten before. The Knicks three years ago beat the Cavs in the playoffs. The Knicks two years ago beat the Sixers in the playoffs. Both of those teams were seated lower than the Knicks are. It doesn't feel like as triumphant and stunning a run to the finals. And so maybe that's part of the reason why it's not getting these incredible national headlines. Also, at the very beginning of this season, I think most pundits felt like the Knicks were the most talented team in the conference

and probably should be, at least in the Eastern Conference finals. In fact, the Knicks owner basically set a mandate for Mike Brown and the team that they had to make the finals, that the expectation was the NBA finals. So it's not preordained per se, but this has just been talked about for 16 months as a possibility. So it doesn't feel as stunningly special. And also, I think Zach's right that New York teams are just hated. Like, the Knicks are kind of a fumbling franchise over the last half century. but they're just not beloved

and whatever success they have had especially in the 90s was for a kind of like brute force unlikable style of play and so I think for older fans that's also burned into their brains is like this isn't a team that I love watching this team though this season I mean this playoffs

they've been a lot of fun to watch I think offensively they're pretty exciting yeah so Dolan in the 2000s a 10 out of 10 train wreck and then the 2010 10 out of 10 train wreck. That's 20 years, 1 5th of a century, a complete train wreck as an owner. Right before COVID, All-Star Weekend, Chicago, I think Zach Lowe was there.

No, I skipped it. He skipped it. I skipped it because I didn't want to get COVID. Somehow I went. I went to Sundance and All-Star weekend and the Oscars and went 0 for 3 in COVID. Sean went one for one. I went to Sundance and have never been more sick in my life. So please to have been Not patience here. I got it at the Sloan conference two weeks later. Yeah. It's not like my discipline sustained. Yeah.

So they hire Leon and Wes basically three weeks before COVID. And then post-COVID, they've just turned into a completely different franchise. And Dolan's been a good owner. Like he's let those guys do their thing. Supposedly he was the one that's like, we have to fire Tibbs. You guys are being too loyal to him. He's not good enough. Get rid of this guy.

He's paid for a lot of money. Like, it's been impressive. And you'd think with that, with the sphere, which has been like one of the most successful entertainment things that has launched probably this century, Dolan's back, man. You got to hand it to him. I made a lot of jokes about him.

I made a lot of jokes with my column and on the pod. But you got to hand it to the dude, man. He's done a good job. Like, when was he, when was he originally good at some point? Dolan's here. Dolan's here. I thought, I really thought for a second that you were going to draw, some connection from COVID to Dolan

arriving. It's just a before and after. I thought there was going to be some sort of scientific commentary that was going to frighten me. My screen was just going to go black. Like the connection was going to get lost. Well, as Sean knows, I don't really remember anything from 2020 or 2021. And there's a chance all of us are dead right now and this isn't actually happening with the next. It's possible.

I love the idea of this being your projection. It's a sci-fi. Post-COVID dream state. Yeah, that's really exciting. James Dolan became a good owner. But you got to hand it to him, man. He's doing a good job. The New York thing's interesting because this is such a beloved team.

Like, if you just like basketball, I just really respect how they play. I think Brunson is just one of the most admirable guys we have in the league. But it is a New York team. And there are a ton of New York fans. And, you know, I don't need to tell you, Sean, when it's going well for New York fans, have a way of letting everybody know about that.

So I'll be interested to see how everybody handles this over the next four weeks. I'll just say this is the first public comments I'm making since this win streak started. I've been trying to keep my mouth shut throughout this. It's a great way to do it. I don't want to jinx it, and I'm also super grateful.

However, like, give a, like, we deserve this. Come on. 53 years. You deserve it just for the last 20. Yeah, it was, the 2000s were fucking tough, man. That was a really hard time. Because in addition to being inept on the court, they were entrenched in controversy and scandal nonstop. I mean, it was a very ugly time to be a fan of that team.

So this just feels different. And I said this to you the last year or so, Bill, but they're just normal now. They just win like 52 games every year. They have one or two players who are in the conversation for all NBA. They're just like a legitimately good NBA franchise. The other thing I'll note is that Leon Rhodes, does not speak to the press.

Ever, ever. And that is also so strange. And so we don't even really know very much about the architects of this team through this six-year period. We just know that they're making the right moves. And I would say six of the eight big moves that they've made since this new administration came in,

when they happened, I was like, that's not a good idea. It was like my old, you know, Nix reflexes kicked in where I was like, ah, trading. Randall and Devencenzzo, I don't get that. Oh, I hope OG is a good deal, but he's really injury prone. We're getting older in that deal. That doesn't make sense. Oh, we missed out on Katie and Kyrie, and we backfilled with Julius Randall as a free agent.

Oh, four years for Brunson and this is at the expense of getting Donovan Mitchell. All of those times, because Knicks fans are so beat up, you could have been like, well, we're going to get the short end of the stick on this one. And every single one worked out. Even Bridges, which that trade was pilloried as recently as April. How about a month ago? Yeah. That's what I'm saying.

Like, it was like way too many picks. And now all of a sudden, two playoffs in a row were like, nope, he's essential. He might even be the second best player on the team. And that's astonishing. That's crazy. Like the fact that all those moves that those guys made worked out. And they never once got in front of the public and we're like, well, we did this. So trust us.

They don't say anything. It's crazy. Well, one of the reasons you know they're good is besides Brunson, the next best three guys and the team have all had moments when they've seen like they're clearly the second best guy in the team. And that's when you know you have a good team. But they're, Zach, I remember doing this in the 2024 finals with Celtics Dallas when, so we were, was Celtics were favored, but maybe not as much as they should have been favored, considering the disparity, the disparity with the records and stuff. And at some point, it just became math. It's like the Celtics had been in this team

for eight months. This is kind of who they are. You look, at the advanced stats for the playoffs. And the Knicks have, they're plus 18.5 for 13 playoff games. That's like a small sample size. It's three different series. And it includes them being down 2-1 and the first one. But they have the second best defensive rating.

They have the best offensive rating. And they have the point differential. They have all this mass stuff in their place. We've always learned that should be a bigger factor when you're trying to figure out what's going to happen, then we give it credit for. So I assume if they blow out the Cavs tomorrow or even just win, those numbers will still be pretty good. Do you pay attention to that though, Zach, those postseason advanced metric shit? Sure.

I mean, again, it's a small sample and it's so opponent specific that, you know, it can be a little, you have to be careful. But I mean, when you are, I mean, I don't even care what the numbers are. When you're like, I haven't even looked, look, when you're this dominant and you're winning by this many points every single game, I've seen some people well, who have they played? They played the Hawks who fattened up against all these lottery teams. They're pretty good. But didn't hear a lot about that when it was 2-1 Hawks. Oh, they played the Sixers who, you know, they're injury prone and Joel couldn't sustain.

By the way, I do have to give you this as the Celtics person. You got the, like, the week that the Sixers became the full-fledged Sixers was against you. Similarly, five seasons ago, you got like the week that the Harden, Kyrie Durant Nets became the full-fledged Durand Ness does also against you guys. It's true. But I don't want to hear about any of this because if you beat three playoff teams by this much, this many times, it says something about the group that you're in. And oh, by the way, they were third in offense and seventh in defense in the regular

season. And seventh in defense with this roster is quite an accomplishment. Like it was sitting there. They were, they were, now what they've done in the playoffs is a completely different thing, but they're just a really good team. to cut a couple small breaks, but every team gets breaks every year. Tatum and Halliburton getting hurt. Janice and Bede breaking down.

And that's happened. That's where in terror was scheduled year after year. The one real break I thought they caught was Detroit kind of choking at the Detroit deadline, not doing anything. Because Detroit was the one team that felt like they like going toe to toe with the Knicks. They really had their number during the regular season. And you know, why didn't they get the extra guy? And if I'm a Detroit fan, I'm going crazy.

right now that we're not in the Eastern Finals. See, I get it. 3-0 Detroit in the regular season. I would have picked the Knicks in 6 maximum. I would have picked the Knicks too. Without even thinking that hard about it. And I would not have thrown away the regular season stuff, but I just would not have read too much into it.

And I think the Knicks were just qualitatively a better team than Detroit. Because I've seen a lot of- What if Kauai Leonard was on the Pistons? Well, okay. I mean, I've seen a lot of like, Oh, Detroit, with, I don't know.

Destroyed the Nix in the regular season and boy, they blew it against Cleveland. I just like, I didn't like the way they were playing in the playoffs. I like the way

the Knicks are playing in the playoffs. I don't read too much into those games. I guess you can't get too comfortable because analytically you're losing two to one. Yeah, that's going to feel really bad when they, when they, when they've lost three games to one analytically.

I don't know how you're going to sleep tonight, man. This, like, you don't understand the month. Sean's had. He goes to Cannes for the first time ever. He's there for like a week and a half. As that's happening, the Knicks go on the fucking all-time heater. It's like worm at the Chesterfield, just whip in the Russians for 24 straight

hours. Yeah, but they're not cheating. That's the thing you remember. No mechanic work, no dealing from the bottom of the deck. I wish the Mets would cheat, by the way, Sean, as long as we're here, I'm in for anything. Don't get me started. Get the garbage cans out in the back, whatever you got to do, because I, you know. I will burn the franchise to the ground. Whatever. the Knicks are doing, the Mets need to drink some of that juice. Because what the fuck, dude? Like, absolute nightmare. I'm not listening to you guys complain about baseball when my owner has just thrown away baseball in Boston.

All right, fair. We traded a possible Cy Young guy this year for a guy who's sitting 161. Yeah, but he got you like three titles. Yeah, and then he's like, he's four. Four titles. And then he's like, you guys should be more appreciative. I should be able to do what I want now. I mean, he's right.

I don't, none of us feel that way. sell the team. Thank you for the titles. The Mets are way more embarrassing. First of all, they haven't won in 40 years. Second of all, they spend $400 million on their payroll and they have the worst offense in the sport. I want to jump off a building thinking about them. It's insane. Thank God for the Knicks. Thank God. If you spent money like that in basketball, your team would be good. You would just, that would just mean you have really good players. In baseball, you can spend money on Bichette and then he could just immediately turn into the worst shortstop of the National League. He makes $42 million a year.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Why didn't you bring this up, Zach? It's my fault. You know why I brought it up? You know why I brought it up? Because I spent part of the day with my daughter, who's now a big Mets fan. We went shopping together.

And she said, the Mets playing this afternoon. Let's check the score. And it was the seventh inning. It says, we're at the freaking mall. We're at the Stamford Mall on a Sunday. This is my life. Stanford Mall. They used to be my heyday place.

Checking the Mets score, seventh inning. And I said to her, you'll never guess how many of the Mets runs. the Mets have in the seventh inning. It's zero, zero. And we drove home. We drove home. Listen to the game on the radio. Bottom of the ninth,

Marlins are up. We pull into the driveway. Guys are on base. We turn on the TV. An airbender gives up a fucking walkoff grand slam right in our face. That's why I've brought it up because I had a day with it. I want to hear a little bit more about Bill's heyday place, the Stanford Mall. What went down there?

Here was the highlight. First of all, Stanford Mall was unbelievable. But one summer, Woody Allen was filming scenes from a mall. With Bet Midler and they were just there. Directed by Paul Mazurski. Sometimes they're on the top floor and it was just such a big deal for the mall. Did you approach Woody and say, I love your work? Thanks for everything.

They didn't approach Woody. They had a great A&W. They had a good music. Curly fries at the A&W. They loved A&W there. You could do a Sam Goody and AMW are right next to each other on the seventh floor. You could get some CDs. and go get some curling fries.

We had a Walden books. It was just good times. Yeah. You guys are getting into trouble. A couple of scamps hanging on Stanford Mall. Yeah. I saw, I saw, I saw, two root beer floats.

One of my great cinematic memories, Sean Fennessey of the big picture is waiting in line for two and a half hours for the opening night of 1989's Batman at the Stanford Mall. That's how big, that is how big that movie was. The bunch of 11 to 12 year old guys are like, we're camping out basically to get into this movie. That's beautiful. I saw a lot of great ones there. I don't even know if they have a movie theater there anymore. Is the mall still nice?

It still looks the same. A lot of the stores are closed. A lot of them have become arcades, basically. And one of the anchor stores, I don't know where it should. It might be Sacks has become the, allegedly the nation's largest pickleball facility. Oh my God. That's the worst thing I've ever heard.

That's like this guy who bought the Trailblazers is like, the biggest investor in pickleball? Can I tell you a pickleball story? Yeah, go ahead. Game two, Nix, a team official who should not be named, says hi to me, introduces me to a guy who knows Joe House. Hey, I know Joe House. Sam.

It was a good starter. I think his name is Sam Porter. And he is the owner or founder or something of the biggest professional pickleball league. And he looked me straight in the eye and he said, I really, I really like what you guys do on the NBA podcasts. you know, you and Bill have great chemistry. I can't listen as much anymore.

And I said why he's like, I can't take Bill's slander on pickleball. It's just too much. I can't do it. So you've lost the listener because of your anti-pickle ball takes. I'll be on the right side of history. If we lose a couple of listeners around the way, it's fine. Pickleball sucks. What was the best movie you saw in Kanshan?

It's called Club Kid. Starr's Jordan Firstman, who is Rachel Stubb. Senate's friend from the TV show I Love LA. It's his directorial debut. He plays a guy who's a club promoter in New York City who wakes up one day and he's in his 30s and he has no money and no insurance and nothing to show for it.

And 10-year-old kid shows up on his front door and is like, you're my dad? And he's like, what the fuck are you talking about? Because Jordan Firstman's character is gay in the film. And it was funny and heartwarming and like old-fashioned and beautiful. And I was like, this is like a Barry Levinson movie. Or like it was kind of like Big Daddy, the Adam Sandler movie.

And honestly, stole my heart. I had a great time watching it, didn't expect it. It was great. So it's like gay Kramer versus Kramer across with Big Daddy? Exactly. That's exactly what it is. Good idea. Yeah. And it's funny and sweet and excellent. Zach, did Sean's projections newsletter about movies that he launched a couple weeks ago, get your, get your juices water to maybe start your own version of an NBA type thing? I'm a subscriber. It's a, it's been an idea of been kicking around. I'm a little scared.

I forgot how to do it. I will say I was doing a chat on the substack. And literally someone asked me, I signed up for your thing. I'm really glad you're here. But I really need you to get both Zach and Bill writing again. It's really important to me. And I said, I'm doing my best. So Bill, can't just pass the buck to Zach.

It goes to you too. I sent like a 180-word text today. That's got me going. What was it about? Hammer and the two fingers getting going. What was it about? I don't know. It was about graduation plans.

Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's not exactly like writing about the NBA, but it's a start. I mean, my daughter's been home for the last two weeks, and you guys have younger daughters than my daughter. And she's 21 now, and we go out, and she can't wait to get carded in order a drink and just let you know what's coming for you guys down the road.

I feel very far away from that. Yeah. Yeah. They get just the happiness in their eyes as they're handing their real driver's license to a bartender or waiter. Kind of like the look in your eyes right now, Sean, about the next. My version of getting carded with my daughter is when she's like, Dad, take out your credit cards, you can buy me this. There it is. Which is something I'm becoming more and more familiar with.

All right. You can listen to Sean on the big picture. You can list on the Zach Lowe show, which will be going. You'll potentially be at game five, right, if Cleveland somehow comes back and wins one. Honestly, I just forgot that there could be a game five, to be honest with you. But yes, I would be there if it exists. I honestly think it's a wrap. And I think there's going to be 30 to 40% Knicks fans there tomorrow would be my other prediction.

Can't believe this is happening. This is unbelievable. Heard there can't get courtsides if you're a Knicks fan. It'll get on the ticket sites that'll just reject you if you're not from Cleveland. What is that? Like, they'll forcibly remove you from the arena? They'll just reset your order. but they make room for celebrities like Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey.

Well, we're going to have some celebs at the game tomorrow, but I don't think they'll be court-side. Sean, good luck. Congratulations. I'm glad things have turned around for you. Bill, thanks for inviting me on. Even if it partly became at the expense of my team, that's fine. We've been friends for a long time. Well, I deserve at least one goddamn thing in this life.

So thank you. Yeah, after the sixth Tom Brady Super Bowl, you deserve something. All right, settle down. That's another thing that's happening for you. Tom Brady's getting super weird. This is like almost like a, another win for you. With respect, he's been an absolute weirdo for 20 years. Zach Lowe, thanks as always. Good to see you. I will see you next Sunday.

Thanks to Gahau and Eduardo and Jack Wilson and Chris as well. That's it for us on Netflix. I'll be back on Tuesday. Don't forget tomorrow, Animal House on the rewatchables. Thanks, everybody. Must be 21 plus in President Select States for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in President D.C. Kentucky or Wyoming. in a game problem, call 100 gambor or 1,800 by reset. Call 88879-7777 or visit ccg.org slash chat in Connecticut or MD gambling help.org in Maryland. Hope is here.

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