The Bill Simmons Podcast - OKC Wins the Title, Haliburton’s Devastating Injury, the Durant Trade and NBA Draft Buzz With Ryen Russillo and Zach Lowe

Episode Date: June 23, 2025

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo and Zach Lowe to react to the Thunder winning the 2025 NBA championship, and Tyrese Haliburton’s injury (2:35). Then, they talk about the Eastern Conference next season and possible trades around the league before discussing SGA’s incredible season (28:33). Finally, Bill and Ryen break down the Kevin Durant trade, discuss the NBA draft, and much more (01:04:41). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Zach Lowe and Ryen Russillo Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo This episode is presented by State Farm®. Dishing the assists you need off the court. State Farm® with the Assist. Play for an ULTRA today, available on Doordash! ENJOY RESPONSIBLY© 2025 ANHEUSER-BUSCH, MICHELOB ULTRA® LIGHT BEER, ST. LOUIS, MO. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Bill Simmons podcast is presented to you by State Farm. We are also brought to you by the Ringer podcast network where Avenue Re-Watchable is coming for you on Monday. It is still New York City month. I keep calling it New York month. It's really New York City month. We're trying to find movies that feel very New York City-ish. So we did Die Hard with a Vengeance.

Me and Van Lathan and Chris Ryan, That is going to be running on Monday night. It was a really, really, really good one. Excited for you to listen to it. And then we have one more movie after for New York month that I'm trying to figure out, but I had to, we'll be taping that later this week. So, uh, you can check out the rewatchables of the Winger Moves YouTube channel. It's also a video podcast. Uh, and there you go.

We have a bunch of NBA draft stuff. If you're into the draft, because we're, you're about to listen to our post game seven NBA finals podcast, uh, with a tragic twist, thanks to the, the terrible Halliburton entry, but it's Ryan Rossellin and Zach Lowe coming up. Zach stays for the first hour. And then Rossell and I talk about the Kevin Durant trade plus the NBA draft. So that's coming up. It's two hours. We did it live on YouTube, but the Ringer has all kinds of great stuff coming with the NBA draft this week.

You can check out our NBA draft guide, which you can find on the ringer.com. You can check out the Ringer's NBA Draft Show, Rossello, you can check out the Ringer NBA Show, whole bunch of stuff. So good draft this year. I'm giving this draft an A- just from a storyline standpoint.

So there you go. I'm gonna be back on Tuesday and then probably Wednesday night after the draft. And those will be the podcast this week. Zach Rusillo coming up next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam after this break. This episode is presented by State Farm. It's no secret that great teams need great teammates.

I've been saying this for years. And when it comes to insurance, State Farm is there to help you find the right coverage for your home, car, and more. Whether you need an in-person or digital assist, they're ready when life hits you with a full court press. Get a game plan that helps fit your life. Talk to State Farm today. State Farm with the Assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer availability and eligibility. Vary by state. All right, we were recording live after the trophy celebration, Game 7 NBA Finals. Ryan Marsillo is here. We brought in Zach Lowe for this one. We thought this was going to be a special night.

It was definitely a memorable night. It was a sad night. It was a happy night for OKC fans, sad night for basketball fans. I've never watched a game seven like that in my life. Rosillo, I'm going to start here. I think this might be the first NBA playoffs that comes and goes,

where the team I'm going to remember isn't the team that won the title, when I think of it first, as weird as that sounds, I can't think of another playoffs, you always think of the champ first you go through it's like 21. Yannis 20, LeBron and the Lakers in the bubble. Like you go on through this one. I'll be thinking, okay, see when, but Indy and they'll be right in the sentence with them. Yeah. I wanted to wait until it felt like kind of a bummed out recap of game seven, but I just wanted to say right in the sentence with them. Yeah.

I wanted to wait until it felt like kind of a bummed out recap of game seven, but I guess it's, it's already there. Cause I think all of us that were watching this, as soon as you saw Halliburton go down, you know, like, all right, how are they going to do this? And then they're up at half. It actually felt like the Halliburton injury messed up. Okay. See more than it did the Pacers. So that would be like the first thing that I had from the game.

I mean, like you guys seriously going to let this happen to you? Or it's the dock rivers theory, but it's dock rivers theory in game. Well, and then on top of it, even when it is down, what was it? They were down like 18 late Zach in the fourth quarter and Mathura made a couple of plays. You're like, are they going to do this? Like I wasn't counting it out. They're down 103 89 or whatever it was with four minutes left. I'm like, I don't know. Maybe they could do this.

I literally went into the living room to watch the last five minutes of the game with my wife and talk her through the Halliburton injury. Cause she was watching it in the other room. I'm watching it in my office. So I'm like, it's over. And then I'm like, I look up the score. I'm watching math and I literally said to her, I think I might have to go back to my office and take this, like watch this with a little closer eye now. This team would not go away. Uh, man, the Hal Burton. I mean, there's so many decade ramifications for this.

Like obviously the Pacers next year, we can go into all of that a lot later. So did you think they actually had a chance to win tonight when you watched the first five minutes pre-injury? What were your thoughts before he goes down? Well, look, every single time somebody asked me about each one of these games, I would just go like, this Pacer story is crazy. But eventually the talent and the defense of what OKC is. me about each one of these games, I would just go like this Pacers story is crazy, but eventually the talent and the defense of what OKC is. And I know a little bit later, I want to share some of their statistical profile stuff from all these playoff games because you're like, this team just

won the championship and it's because of this defense and it's because of that takeover in the third quarter. So I wouldn't rule out anything with the Pacers because we've all come away incredibly impressed and just their toughness and how they're built and who they are and their belief and all that stuff. So I think everybody just kind of raving about them on social media. But in those first few minutes, I thought there was like two things that were going to stand out.

SGA was not ready for how much they collapsed on him in game six. It was pretty obvious he had a career high turnovers. And with his passing tonight, you could see that he had adjusted for that. However, OKC, all of these threes are wide open and they still miss them. This is their ninth game in these playoffs where they're 30% or lower from three point.

But yeah, I guess I never really ruled anything out. Even as Zach was saying, they're up. Okay. She's up 22. You're like, this thing's over and then it's the math or in show. And you're like, what the hell? Like in that five, that six to five minute mark, you're like, they've already chipped away 10 points on this thing. I was getting ideas, Zach, cause two things.

They were calling it tight early, which I thought if the, if Indy had the recipe for Indy to win is, are they going to call it tight? Is okay. See, you they going to call it tight? Is okay. So you're going to look tight and then could Indy come out, hit some threes and start, and they went to timeout and Halbert was mean mugging the crowd. And I was like, okay, this is if Indy was going to steal this game. This is the recipe and Indy, I think okay. So he was even four for 17 from three at halftime, you know, and, and then

the defense took over and that was it. I thought your question to Ryan was actually, did you think they had a chance to win after the injury and at halftime? That's, that's, I guess that's another question. Because my answer to your actual question is of course, I thought they had a chance to win with Halliburton playing well, I thought this was like not quite a coin flip game. I predicted OKC by four.

That was my random, you know, OKC really close prediction. Of course I thought they had a chance to win. And I don't think you're wrong to say the runner up is as memorable or more memorable than the champion because this was like some sports magic stuff that happened to the Pacers. Like actual and I'm not just talking about the crazy Halliburton end of game shots and buzzer beaters and miracle comebacks and all that. I'm talking about like, you know, I was talking to the GM of another team today and I was like, what do you take out of this Pacers thing?

What do they win or lose? And he said, hope. We take hope because they are a study in like alchemy and the whole adding up to way more than the sum of its parts. Like something magical happened to them in the nexus of style of play slash unique superstar, chemistry, toughness, how personalities and games all mesh together. It was like, it was magic. And when they're up one at halftime, you allow yourself to think like, are they actually going to do this? And now I thought the whole time.

They're just are not going to be able to score enough points at Oklahoma. City is not going to have to even play a good offensive game to win this game. They're just going to grind them to dust piece by piece by piece, drip by drip by drip. And that's what happened. But I like, this was a magical thing that happened for the last two months even even extending into the regular season obviously and it's a It's just I mean It's just such a gut punch for it to end this way

I mean the shot I don't know if you guys are still watching of Halliburton on crutches in the hallway and McConnell reading in years hugging him is is just It's and like I know the Thunder are celebrating. They should celebrate. They were the best team all year. It just, there's no question that it feels like everybody, including the Pacers and starting with the Pacers was robbed of what should have been an epic, epic moment in the NBA. Yeah. It's, as you know, I love sports movies and there was that moment at

halftime where you're thinking like, this doesn't even feel like a real, real life thing anymore. This actually feels like a sports movie. This is like watching the Friday night lights movie when they're going in the finals, trying and then they lose at the end. It's like, oh my God, the scrappy underdogs. The way they responded to losing their best guy in the worst possible way, you know, it's almost, it's almost like you're getting hit by a sniper from the crowd or something when you go down like that And to and to just have them be like shake it up. They're like, all right, let's let's stay focused

I don't know how you stay focused in a moment like that Like it's certainly this when it happened to the Celtics a couple rounds ago. The game was basically over at that point But Indiana they had 43 minutes left in the game. And I, I agree that I thought it affected both teams. Um, and okay. So even a little more, and they were saying the crowd was kind of. Kind of like, what do you do for the crowd? You know, uh, the whole thing, definitely one of the weirdest things

I've ever seen in a big game. I don't know. So can you think of in any other, like this is a do or die game and you bring in this variable that nobody's expecting. I couldn't even concentrate on the next half hour of the game. Like I didn't even really take notes. I don't know, I was watching it

and you know, Indiana was hanging around but I don't really know what happened in the first half. I was just like kind of stupefied. I was like, did that just happen? These games, I think the last two, the first half's have been played at such a frantic pace. And I don't know that that showed out in the pace numbers because that was a big thing that we talked about

with the way Pacers had run through the East because OKC was gonna be comfortable doing some of that stuff. But I think the energy, right? The effort, the sheer effort that you see the paces throughout, you either match it or you don't and you see what happens in game six for OKC. And then it always felt like the games when they came out in the second half, like the last couple, it was just, even though you just come off this break, you

could see that that first half was like draining for all these guys. And, you know, I expected, I expected, okay, okay, okay, see to shoot it better because the role players are gonna shoot it better at home traditionally. But I, I don't know, man. Like it was, I think it actually speaks to the Pacers in that all they've done is fight now for months.

And if Halliburton's going down, as much as the three of us can be sitting here and be like, how do you reset yourself? Like, because it happened so fast, like you're out there. There's nothing, there's no other game. And if anything, right, they've proven that they're going to respond. So I, yeah, at halftime, Nemheart hits that shot.

Like, they're up one? Anything- They didn't even know how to talk about it at halftime when they do doing the halftime show, they're like, what's like, they didn't even ask Bob Myers. You were in this exact spot six years ago. One game, one thing they could have talked about at halftime. Well, I mean, it would have been how I led the show. Like Bob, this, you had KD coming back from a, from a calf strain in 2019. You were worried about it.

He came back and he made the injury worse. Everyone was saying this wouldn't happen to Halbert. And then it happened. I mean, I gotta admit when he had the calf strain game five, I, I Googled all the Achilles injuries and there, it didn't seem like there was any sort of rhyme or reason to whether there was a connection or not. Some people are like, it's two different injuries, but this was exactly what happened to KD.

It's hard not to think this was just the sequel to it. And I mean, there's a bigger, you think this is different than KD just because it's, it's game seven. It's, it's a couple of minutes in. It's I'm saying it's the same situation where he's coming back playing hurt on an injury that if it was the regular season, he's out for three weeks, four weeks. Like he's resting it, but they was playing on an injury. He shouldn't be playing on normally.

They were claiming it wasn't going to make any worse. And then, you know, it gets, gets worse. And I, I just don't know what's going on. They, I mean, this is a whole separate topic and it was one that I was texting with a bunch of different people on. It's like, where are these Achilles injuries coming from? These used to be old man injuries. They're now happening. These dudes are in the prime of their career in Tatum's case and Hal Burton's case.

And I just don't fully understand it. And I know that's going to be a huge topic over the next four or five days, but it's maybe some of the stuff we've talked about on past pods about how the sport's harder to play. There's more running, there's more training and the miles that you're carrying are from a AU is they're just more wear and tear in these guys. But it doesn't make sense to me why guys who are 24, 26, 27 years old are blowing out their Achilles.

Well, the other difference with Durant too is Durant hadn't played in a month and then Guys who are 24, 26, 27 years old are blowing out their Achilles. Well the other difference with Durant too is Durant hadn't played in a month and then he came back. The reason it feels a little, it doesn't feel that different to me, but the difference is Haliburton just kept playing through this and played pretty well last game. But look, it's a hard game to talk about because this should be a crowning moment for the Oklahoma City Thunder for, um, just the greatest, quickest rebuild from, from, from the, from bottoming out kind of to utter dominance and having a team that is literally the best team ever, probably in all of professional sports, the best position to win now and win later of

any team that maybe has ever existed. And it is their crowning moment, but I think like in 15 years, the number one thing we'll remember from this game is that Tyrese Halliburton in a game that we were all jacked up to watch got hurt seven minutes into the game. And in a game where all the casual fans are watching. Like this was one of the, this is like my wife and my daughter are watching this one.

My dad's here. My dad and I got to watch Keegan Bradley, uh, some somehow get back, come back on Tommy Fleetwood and the Hartford open today. And that was, that was a fun sports moment. This was not as fun to watch Albert and, uh, go down. Um, I don't know, Rossello, what the, the, okay. See piece of this, I think Zach makes a crucial point that this might be the beginning of,

you know, a half a decade run. I feel like you and I have talked about this after titles before. Like we did this, we talked about this after the Denver finals. I remember like, Jesus, Yoke, Edge, Murray, they're both so young. Hey, like we kind of do this after every finals, but in this case with how young they are, I didn't feel like they've peaked with whatever their core is, it feels like that've peaked with whatever their core is It feels like that's two years away. So this is pretty unique. There's no reason to think that this is Jalen Williams peak

There's certainly no reason to think that it's Chet's peak. I mean offensively He was so good defensively tonight, especially close that one out, you know And the Pacers want to go small because they want to be chaotic. They wanted to try to challenge all the inbounds I mean, okay See didn't have a time after Caruso can get the ball in, so they were gonna have a timeout the rest of the game. SGA's got the fifth foul, which is another thing

at that five minute mark. You're going, what if the, and like TJ went right at him on the next possession, I'm like, if he fouls out, like this has been four guys on the Thunder all looking to get the ball back to SGA for about an hour and a half here, So like, what's that going to look like? And a real weird part of me was like almost rooting for SGA to foul out, just be like, all right, here we go. Like Haliburts out, SGA's out. Like, let's see what happens here. But yeah, I don't always love the, it was kind of Mission

Impossible line that I had where like when the eighth one comes out, you can't say this is the third best one ever. You have to say that it's the best Mission Impossible. Nobody's going to do that and have it be in the ad. No one can just win a championship without the follow-up questions of like, how real is this? A lot of times it's total bullshit. It's a waste of time. It's a Monday topic after a championship.

It's not good enough to just celebrate the championship. But as Zach said, considering what they've done, how they've built this, how young this team is, what the youngest team in 40 plus years to win a championship like this, and even with a couple of warts, you know, that their defense seems to solve. And we can say now solves enough for them to win a championship. It's totally reasonable to look at them and go, all right, you know, of all the teams in the West, I know we'll get to the East later because sixer stands must just be like, all right, is this the year? Um, there's, there's no reason to think any of that stuff.

Normally that post championship discussion, I just think is so fatiguing and this one is completely relevant. Well, can you imagine if they had ended up with Philly's pick? If they had the seventh pick with all the Ace Bailey drama right now and be like, are they going to fucking get Ace Bailey? Is that where we're headed with this? I mean that seventh pick, especially I know Rossella has been grinding tape. I think even our guy Zach Lowe's been grinding.

A little bit. Grinding is strong. Whatever is like a little softer than grinding. Spanish sanding. Yeah. But that seventh pick is, you know, you might really get a dude there. So maybe that's the one silver lining with this. Okay.

CPs. Zach, one thing I liked about them today, I thought, you know, Jalen Williams was bad in the first half, but really came on second half. SJ was great the whole game. I really liked everything he did today. And then Chet was great the whole game. I really liked everything he did today. And then Chet was great. You know, you win the title, you want your best guys to have a good game

in the biggest stage. I do think we're gonna have a complicated relationship with this as a game seven though, because you think back to all the game sevens from the past and the first thing that jumps to your mind with each one, like 2016, LeBron, the block, Kyrie's shot, and you just go through and it's in this one, you, you're probably going to think about Halibur first and then

probably SGA second. What else, what else would be the takeaways other than that? Well, SGA, you know, greatest eight of 27 shooting game of all time. Like it's stuck up on me how bad he shot from the floor, but he made a lot of, he made a shot for the last 40 minutes, right? But 11 free throws, 12 assists, one of the best passing games of his career. J-Dub, like you said, recovered from a shaky first half,

pretty dominant second half, and Chet was just everywhere defensively. And just their wealth of defensive talent, when they don't play Joe at all, it's like, what am I even supposed to do against this team? It's just like, that guy made all, like that guy made all the offense, that guy made all defense. Those four would have that they've been eligible,

but they didn't play enough games. Like, what am I even supposed to do? And that's like the ultimate tribute to this team is the one thing that's consistent game in and game out is the puzzle that no team could solve four times in seven games is Oklahoma City's defense. No team was able to solve it. Maybe the Pacers, you know,

who knows what happens if Haliburton doesn't get hurt? Do they put up a better fight? Obviously, but like this is attributed to how good the defense was with 1122 left in the game. Shay hit a step back three, 84 68. I wrote in my notes, zero test by that. And which, by which I mean, could they not score the rest of the game and still win is, is, is, is Indiana even going to get to 84 and they did get to 84, they got to 91, but like, I actually thought could the Pacers pitch a shut out for 11 minutes and 22 seconds and still not win the game. Well, what was it? They had that stretch where TJ was the only guy that scored for.

It was like 10 minutes, 10 plus minutes of the game. And it's, and like Pascal, like I just, it shows you how great Halliburton is. Like he is the straw that serves to drink his combination of the threat to shoot off the dribble from 30 feet, the instant getting off the ball, passing the unpredictable movement. It's like without him, the whole thing, they're not the Pacers. And they were, they, they did enough to stay in the game for a half, but they just, their backup plan just wasn't there.

The separation that Siakam thrives on, all the gaps he sort of darts through and they open up, they don't open up without Halliburton. Yeah. Siakam hit that three, right? So there was that weird near shot clock violation three, the Dort hits and it's ridiculous. All right. And it was off another one of these kind of like messy, just get it back to SGA.

Like there were a lot of offensive possessions here for OKC or I was like, do the other four guys have zero interest in doing anything and just hoping SGA figures it out. So I think I'm with both of you guys that if you look back at the box score on this one and be like, SGA didn't really have that great of a game seven and shoot it. It's like, yeah, but he's dictating everything. It's like a bad Steph Curry shooting game where you're like, okay, but he's still so

important to everything that's happening. And I do think there was an adjustment and his willing to pass because only had two assists in game six. So Siakam comes right back and hits that three, I think about 10 30 left in the third quarter. And at the time I'm like, if the Pacers pull this off, like I wrote it down, it was like, this will be such a monstrous three because Dort shouldn't have hit that one. It just goes in.

From that 10 30 moment on, even though TJ is just dicing everybody up, because even in game seven, the secondary defenders still weren't ready for this TJ McConnell fucking show. Um, it's unbelievable what he did. He's what he scores all those points in a row. See, outcome did not take another shot in the third quarter until that thing at the very end with five seconds left. Now he did sit for five minutes.

So then when I thought, okay, he got that rest, he wasn't a big part of the offense because everybody's kind of watching TJ go off, I was expecting him to try to get that push. And very early in the fourth quarter, he gets a possession and you can see that he wants to be aggressive. It's not him checking out, it's him not being afraid of the moment.

It wasn't any of those things. But he gets into this position where Chet comes over, just swallows him up. And Siakam twice had these two early positions in the fourth quarter where he's like, this is, to Zach's point, like, oh shit. Like everybody's paying attention to me now, and I'm not gonna to be able to just

cut off his Halliburton, dicing everybody up and just breaking the paint. Well, that was the fun part about that Mcconnell stretch when he scored all those points, but I think he also had at least four turnovers and they were just like, if you ever wanted your answer on, could McConnell be Jalen Brunson on the Knicks? If you geared your offense around him, we're throwing everything we have at stopping him. I think he had the two turnovers in a row and hit the three threes when they blew it up and all of a sudden they were up nine. And they were just coming at him, coming at him. And it was like, Oh man, the clock struck midnight for poor TJ

McConnell. And then he scored 10 straight points. He was like, no, I'm just going to go to the basket over and over again. And was just fighting these guys off by himself. But yeah, I thought the thing they miss, I mean, on top of all the other stuff you missed with Halbert and they just don't get fast breaks without them. You know, they couldn't push, they couldn't push the pace at all. And if it's going to be a half court game, okay. So he's beating anyone except maybe Denver. If we're just going half court versus half court.

And that's how Denver was able to hang with him. What else do we need to talk about? Okay. See why Zach, is there a way for them to get better in your opinion? Oh, absolutely. And I would be your number one move. Well, I think, I mean, you know, the talking points are always, well, Chet's just scratching the surface of what he can be offensively.

And you know, he did not shoot the three, maybe one or two from three today, did not shoot the three well in the playoffs again. Uh, and Jay Dubb still has levels to get to as the second and third guys. I think just along with that, those guys getting better offensively comes a, they, they still have like molding of a general offensive system to do that's, that doesn't default all the time to just like, Shay, can you do something at the end of the clock? And I think that's what Ryan was talking about earlier of like just the dependence on his one-on-one game, the synergy between Shay and J-Dub.

You know, we saw them run a few pick and rolls at the, in this game, like they did at the end of game five, I think it was, uh, when they, when they cracked the defense a little bit with that. I just think like just building out the offense is the thing that would scare me about the thunder if I were all these other teams in the West trying to load up and compete with them is that they still have as a collective levels to get to. But look, I mean, the Halliburton thing is also a reminder that even, I mean, the thunder are probably going to be the exception given how well they are set

up now and later, but like none of this stuff is guaranteed. That's what's heartbreaking about this Halliburton injury. Like it's not like when we're the one's last time the Pacers were in the finals. Did there's no guarantee they'll be back at this stage ever in Tyrese Halliburton's career. Like none of this is guaranteed to you, not even to the thunder. And that's why getting all the way here after all this grueling stuff and having an end, it just sucks.

Like it just objectively sucks. I would also add like, I'm happy for Presti because it was always the annoying guy and I'm using that as just the catch all annoying guy of like, Oh, if you're so good, you know, dot, dot, dot. And you're just like, shut the fuck up. Okay. Um, and to think of what Zach's talking about with Halliburton, like I thought about it too. It's like, what's the likelihood

Halliburton gets back to the NBA finals? Like it's, it's far more unlikely than likely just the way this stuff plays out. And if you're a Thunder fan and it's not like I have this decades long, like sympathy for Thunder fans, the way you would maybe say like the Cleveland Browns or something. But for that group to have Katie Westbrook, Harden, Serge and make it to the NBA finals in 2012 and feel like they were competitive, right? Even though it was a five game series and you're kind of leaving there going, all right, you know, we got some of that playoff seasoning and we're good. And imagine like telling anybody, imagine telling Preston, be like, the next time

you guys are going to be here, it's in 13 years. So it's. Like it's just an amazing rehabilitation. Yeah. I was. When they were watching, watching everybody hug and celebrate and print, they showed Preston hugging SGA and you think back to that summer when, and Ryan and I were doing pots together that summer.

Um, and all the focus was on the Quippers traded him, man, okay. So he did well for themselves because they had hit a dead end. The Westbrook era was done. This, this, that, that was it. There was no chance to win a title with Westbrook and Paul George and whoever else they had, um, and to be able to parlay that into what they did with weirdly an umbilical cord to that 2012 finals that Ryan's mentioning, where it

does feel like it's somehow connected to that era because they took that era as far as they could. And then they turned all the assets into the rest of it. I do want to point out they did. I mean, did you feel like this was OKC's first title or their second, Zach? Just a question. I don't get the question. OKC won the title today.

Is it their first title? Is it their second title? I'm not going to wade into these waters with you. No, you're wading in. It's a question. You have to answer. It's their first NBA championship. OK, there we go.

This is my Minneapolis Lakers case or something. But does anyone disagree on this one? Nobody knows KC and the fans are like, we got our second one. No one's fighting with you on this one, right? Yeah, but this is the Minneapolis Lakers point. They still claim the five Minneapolis Lakers title. Sorry. Whatever. Jack Six was seventh in MVP voting that year. This episode is brought to you by McLobe Ultra. One of the best things about summer, all the different sports going on. You might be playing volleyball, golf, tennis, baseball, who knows? There's so much to do.

If you really want to have some fun, spice things up with Michelob Ultra as the prize, because winning always tastes better with ultra on the line. I'm a big tennis guy, especially during the summer. Uh, nothing better than a couple guy, especially during the summer. Uh, nothing better than a couple sets, sweat it all out. The ultra is waiting for you. Um, don't do this with pickleball because you shouldn't play pickleball. Play tennis. That's what the real people play. Play tennis, have an ultra, uh,

superior is worth playing for. You can fill your fridge with Mclo Boccia this summer at door-.com. Super easy. Enjoy responsibly copyright 2025 in Izor Bush Miklo Boccia light beer, St. Louis, Missouri. This special portion of the Bill Simmons podcast is being brought to you by Loom by Atlassian. You're feeling stuck at work. They can help you trade out lengthy emails and unproductive meetings for something better. Loom's video messaging. With it, you can record your Can we fast forward to how weird the East is next year and then circle back and talk about the finals? I don't know how long Zach's staying because he's on his coast time. We have to talk about this.

No, but I'm glad you're doing it this way because, and I just want to say this before we go forward. I'm glad we're doing this right after the heat of the moment and after the trophy presentation because it's going to go down as a weird podcast. Like we, and it's weird because we don't know how to talk about the game. Like what you said before about, I was just in a haze for like an hour after Halliburton got hurt. So this should be a strange podcast that jumps from like, Hey, are the who's favored in the East next year with all these injuries to,

what do we think about the Thunder's legacy as a champion to poor Tyrese Haliburton because it's a hard, it's just a strange moment to talk about. So I'm glad we're getting strange. Let's talk about the freaking East next year. Yeah, so two pieces. The first piece is the Haliburton piece. Out for next year.

No question. Heartbreaking. Uh, I was so bummed out. Like I just couldn't believe it. I like it because you knew right away. It feels like we've seen enough of these that as soon as you saw the calf shimmy, you're like, Oh my God, really? This is happening.

Um, for him, he just went through this whole eight, nine month thing where he went from basketball fans knew who he was. Wasn't really a household name to like, I felt like he became a legitimate star. He became the face of a team that we all loved. Even if you weren't a Pacers fan, you have your own thing. Like this was the front man of a team that I think was the biggest winner of this entire NBA playoffs that didn't win the title. And now he's just gone. We have no idea when he's going to be. It'll be 18 months before we see him play basketball again. And I

just can't believe this is how this worked out, Rossello. Where you have somebody who's, it's like watching some, like a summer movie where they're promoting this movie coming, this movie coming, this so and so. And it's like, oh man, this guy's the new Superman. He's going to be a big star. And then that's it. We just don't see him. I just can't believe this is how it happened.

Yeah. Cause I couldn't even start thinking about the East until like halftime. Cause then it crept in my head and I knew we probably should have to do some of this because yeah, I think all three of us are like, you know, it's not like we're a thunder podcast, you know, sometimes like I think of the sports center rules, the arguments I would get into the radio show back in the day of like, well, this team won. It's like, so what are we supposed to do? Just say they were awesome for seven minutes. Like what's the actual topic?

And we've gone, we've all on our, our own podcast. We've all talked about all the reasons that are awesome. I mean, the East was weird before this Haliburton injury. We were like, what's going to happen with the East next year? We had no idea. Now it's three times weirder. Well, maybe I could guess that Zach, the GM you were talking to, wasn't Kobe Altman. If he was like, this gives us hope because it felt like a team, a team that didn't have high end talent. And after Cleveland gets 11.

You excited for the potential Lamello ball, Jalen Green backcourt down the line? Yeah, the bell ball, Conk and Nipple. Yeah, let's go. Conk and Nipple and Jalen Green work together? I don't know. But if you're looking at everything that we said in the moment with Cleveland, you're like, another disappointing early exit, incredible regular season profile. Clearly Garland is even more hurt than we realize because I missed time in the next season.

But I would always talk with you about it and be like, you know, most of the GMs are just going to go, hey, we really like our four guys. We spent a ton of money on the fifth guy and Hunter. We added shooting and all these different things. I mean, Ty Jerome's probably gone, but we'll probably just run it. Even if we seem a little flawed and it's embarrassing that we lost that series of the Pacers, even with the Garland injury, now, if you're Cleveland, you're just going, well, of course we're running it back now. Like who are you afraid of?

Tatum's out, Halliburton's out and the Knicks just had a coaching change and God only knows what's going to happen with them. Dame's out. Does that even, I mean, if you think that matters or not. Yeah, that's definitely a hundred percent part of it. And Orlando, who does this Bain trade, and now they're like, Jesus. Did you see the Orlando odds went from 30 to one to win the title to 12 to one? After the injury? Come on.

Well, this is one of my subplots that I talked about last week is like, and it's even more relevant now, is there another Bain style move coming for like a random team? Not that Orlando was a random team. I thought Orlando would have been a 50 win team this year had they stayed healthy. So they're, they're above that. But like, are the Hawks going to be like, Hey, you know what? How many picks we got?

Like, can we go, can we go get, I don't even know who it would be. Can we go get this guy, that guy? Like, like why not? Do you want to do know who it would be. Can we go get this guy, that guy? Like, why not? Do you want to do some Hawks trade exception talk? Oh my God. 35 million? 25 million, yeah, they could fit Dylan Brooks right now. We'll take them.

Think bigger, I don't know. No, I'm just, you know. I think smaller when it comes to trade exceptions. Yeah. Because I was reading some free agency thing the other day and it's like, oh, it's like, okay, right. So the $25 million player has to be another guy that costs that much, the other team

doesn't want anything back for a value. Print the shirts. I'm ashamed to admit, the only reason I know about that trade exception is I was looking at three-way deals with Drew going to Phoenix and Dylan Brooks going to Atlanta and the Celtics getting Royce O'Neal and saving like $23 million.

I did, I just, I gave it a test drive on the trade machine. I'm not saying it's a trade that could happen, but I was trying to figure out some, cause I mean I can't wait to talk about it. I probably should have, maybe I could screenshot it and put it on Instagram. But yeah, if you're Cleveland, you have like a legitimately embarrassing loss, you win 64 games and you just go out, you get basically sucker punched in

round two. And then after that happens, Tatum, as that's happening, Tatum goes down, Halbert goes down and the Knicks got only, we don't, we still don't know who their coach is. Um, so you're saying Cavs 73 and nine mixture. I think the Cavs are like, let's uh, let's run. And then Orlando I think is feeling good.

And then I think you guys are right. Like there's going to be some wild card East team. We've had some fun trades where teams who weren't in it were like, maybe we're, maybe we're a contender and they'll just do something crazy. I'm not playing bulls. Yeah. They start calling up Tommy like straight. What's going on with Julius Randall and you guys. Hey, look, man, Toronto, Toronto took Yakka portal off the table for Kevin Durant. Like I don't, I don't know if I don't, maybe Toronto is not our candidate for a wild trade. If you're taking Yakka portal

off the table and Kevin Durant trade talks, it's, you know, maybe, maybe that was real. Yeah. It's a real thing that happened. And it was the Miami thing real that Sean said, cause that, like that Heywood Highsmith and what he said, no, yeah, that one was Sean's with Miami was no one was available. Tell me, tell me what he said.

I didn't see it. He's basically saying like, they were like, we'll give you Wiggins, Wiggins and a contract and the 20th pick, like they basically offered nothing. Sounds like somebody's a little anti. Podal. I like Yaka Pertle just fine. I'm just like, like, if you are like, could you, do you want Kevin Duran or not? Like, do you like, why are you on the phone with whoever's taking calls for the Suns?

If Yaka Pertle, who, how, where, what is he, the 16th best starting center in the NBA? 12th, ninth, 18th? I don't know. I certainly would not take him off the table for anyone who averaged over 20 points a game last year, much less 25, 26, 27. Yeah, so he ended, 26, 27. Yeah, so he ended up going to Houston. We're going to talk about that later. But yeah, so Cleveland, Orlando, I mean, and then you look at the Pacers.

They have this magical run. It's amazing. And now, you know, no Halliburton next year. Not a lot of ways. Detroit 58 wins next year for the Pistons. I mean, let've you coming back Ron Holland year two are there our guy is there anyone else now that the rants off the table that you feel like is a

Elevator for a team like Detroit for instance. We've already had two. We've already had Bain and Durant traded. I'm looking at the standings. I mean, it's, it's, it's going to be hard to find a team that's like motivated to sell. Let's call it like the Jeremy Grant line, a team that's motivated to sell a player that's better than Jeremy Grant. Like I think we all agree Jeremy Grant's a nice Grant line, a team that's motivated to sell the player that's better than Jeremy Grant. Like I think we all agree Jeremy Grant's a nice NBA player from a team that might at some point want to pivot away from him, but also not a guy who you're going to be like, Whoa, they got that guy.

That changes my, my whole thinking about the team and the Memphis guys seem to be somewhat off the table. I think your best candidate would be Markkinen, right? Like just like if they decide just this, this is on Collins is Collins above or below the Jeremy Grant line. Below. I don't mind them. I think it's an expiring contract too, but the grant thing you're

taking on some real money and that's like over 90 billion. So I'm not, I'm not as excited for that. I know for solo was a GM. He would have, uh, he would have already scouted all the eight and post-ups from last year. Try to, try to talk yourself into it. The other place to look is like, like the Rosen to me doesn't, doesn't do it, but the Levine, like, is there any big Zach Levine fan? Like this guy's changing. Is he above the Jeremy Grant line? I think he probably is, but not by, not by as much as, is his sort of raw stats,

which suggests, I don't think. Well, he's playing for his number one fan right now in the back. So Priscilla, how far below the Jeremy Grant line do you have Bradley Beale? Is it, is it like you go into the basement and then there's a special freight elevator where you have to go another, it's like, nobody knows about the elevator and then you go a special freight elevator where you have to go another, it's like, nobody knows about the elevator. Then you go another three floors down. If I could do Beale for grant, I'd make a grant statue.

If you're, if you're Phoenix. Yeah. You don't even have to play. And then he would veto it after you made the trade. Yeah. Um, I, um, so, you know, one of the reasons is that Durantrade happened was cause the draft is somehow three days from now. So on a Wednesday night, we just had a game seven.

It's that we have a 72 hour. And so Phoenix wanted that 10th pick. I still feel like Dallas has Dallas is the one I'm watching. Cause I just don't think the roster that they have is going to be the roster they start October with. And I don't know whether it's going to be Gafford or clay or PJ Washington or what they do, but I just feel like there's some sort of move with them.

Um, and I think Gafford would have real value, but I'm talking about like, that's not catapulting. That's not below the, that's below the Jeremy Grant line, but I think Dallas is the most likely trade. And then I think Sacramento is going to be on the edge of my seat, waiting to see what they do. Can I think we were going to do a Gafford Grant debate, but I mean, Gafford probably means more for certain teams than Grant would because as talented as Grant is, he also can

be a little Tobias Heresy. Look, I just want to apologize to the listeners. Part of my basketball soul just evaporated during the Tyrese Elementary. And now my brain is broken. And I'm gonna say the following sentence out loud on a podcast an hour after Thunder won the championship. Does anyone know what's going on with Zion Williamson?

If we're talking about the Jeremy Grant line and tradable guys, like is he, do the Pelicans want him Joe, Joe Dumars is somehow now the GM of the Pelicans. Like, do we know what's happening there? Cause I guess that's another name we should at least be like that guy could change if he ever actually played, he could change some, change some themes. Well, we're still those are number one Zion expert. I know he's been monitoring it. Yeah.

I still think ownership really likes the idea of him there. And they feel burned historically with other big names asking out and having great stories. But, you know, again, I don't know that because Baron Davis was good after, I'd be like, we have to keep Zion. I personally would just be like, hey, it's, it's time to move on from this. Even though I think all of us, when it's good, we love watching it. I've referenced that Minnesota regular season

game when he was back and he was spry and ready to go. And I was like, this is a fun, fun game. But there's also like a basketball question with Zion because the best, the best version of him is when he's your point guard and you just let him go point Zion and he kills everybody. No one can stay in front of him.

And the funny thing is like you play off of him because he can't shoot and that's normally what you do against somebody who's a penetrator, but you actually are allowing him to get a running start. So it kind of backfires. So you then have to close out on somebody who can't shoot. And then I've always kind of liked his passing, but yeah, look, if he were healthy, we could probably have this conversation about him. But I do think that there's a fair conversation about like what he would

actually bring to an already established team if it's, we just got to clear out and let him go a much taller, more athletic version of TJ McConnell. Like as great as TJ McConnell has been throughout the series, I didn't think I'd ever see five out TJ McConnell just beating up on a defense player in the restricted area and a team being like, this is how we want to run our office. This is like who, this is our identity. What Zach, if you had to make a documentary about anything about the 2025 finals with just the TJ, just trying to, trying to figure out how this guy

was attacking one of the best defenses we've seen in the last 40 years and getting shots that he wanted. Just trying to understand that. That's like a two hour doc. Apologies to listeners again, but there was like, two and a half years ago, he would not shoot.

Like he did not want to shoot. And then sometime last season, I don't know if he flipped A switch in his head if Rick Carlisle flipped a switch in his head He was like I'm gonna go get me some buckets and I'm like gonna be an elite isolation isolate forget picks I don't even need picks I'm just gonna isolate like I'm a 6-8 wing and I'm gonna get buckets on fucking everybody off the bench and play my way Into the six man of the year conversation. I've never seen a transformation like it. The Thunder just won the NBA championship by the way. So, so Lou Dort would be the only thing if they had to like try to save money with extensions.

That's the only move and I just wouldn't trade him. He's beloved. He's beloved. And I'll tell you this about Lou Freak. He's also too important on what they do. I just, to me it's a non-star. You know what we can say about Lou Freak and Dort? You can say a lot of things about Lou Freak and Dort, but you could never say he will stop shooting threes if he goes into a slump. That dude is gonna keep on shooting contested three after contested three after contested three, right? And he doesn't care if he's missed six and0, he shoots with the conscience of like Clay Thompson. Just like, of course I'm gonna make like the next seven

that I take, I love it. If the Thunder was. It's weird, I always feel like they're going in. You do? I do, I don't know why, I just, something about him. He's got a very specific launch angle, where there's some where you go, whoa, whoa, like this, he is playing this one up.

I did have a list of to-dos for the Thunder, had they blown this, which I wrote some of that stuff down. First, one of the reasons they can't get rid of Lude Door, even though it's been suggested if they wanna get really clever and constantly stay in front of this and allow themselves financial flexibility, I would be afraid to see what the personality of this team is without Lou Dorr.

Okay, because every team needs a badass and he's still kind of a quiet badass. He's not an outward emotional guy. And at the times when I was wondering what the hell's going on with this team? Like what's wrong with the Thunder right now? And it's like, are they too casual? Are they still a little too chill?

Is that still even something that's fair to say about a team that just won an NBA championship? Because clearly it's not so detrimental that it prevents them reaching the ultimate goal because they just did it an hour ago. But it's part of the door conversation because this is, it's like taking Draymond away from Prime's Stephen Clay.

As great as those dudes were, you needed somebody who was always on edge. And I think every team needs one of those guys and Chet's certainly not ready to be that guy. I don't even know if that's in his personality. Physically, like I'm so excited about Chet when he can actually hold his position. Cause I mean, it's just a nightmare for him trying to hold up, uh, which looked a lot better when the other team went small the night, but the, the DORT thing, I think is really interesting cause Cause I'm with you.

Like you would hear, could they get in front of that? And I think they desperately need his personality. Yeah. Because he's the reason you do it is I think he's up to like 20 million a year and you could just, you have guys on your bench that are cheaper replacements. That's it. That would be the only reason. But Zach and I went to game four and in the second half of that game, he, I thought he was the MVP of the game, him and Caruso.

They just took the game over with their, you know, by, by just being like Alphas on defense and like a really specific way, like the way they carried themselves to what, what they try to do to Halburn. I mean, one of the complaints I had about this series was there was very little bad blood shit talking, anything, all the stuff that we're just used to in a final, it was a very polite series. Um, and now I thought the second half of game four was the only one when they really ramped it up where it felt like a little more, uh, a little more personal.

I don't know, Zach. So if they keep him, then you have all these young guys on the team. I guess it is what it is. It seems great. Yeah. I was going to say we can, we can. There might be some topage minutes somewhere, maybe some garbage time stuff. I don't know how they change.

They have 15 contracts next year, like 13 guaranteed contracts. And then AJ Mitchell and big Jalen Williams are team options. That's 15 dudes. That's all you can have on an NBA roster. I think the guy to look at for like, how do they re reorient the roster a little bit to just not be a second apron team and just get crushed by the luxury tax more so than Dort is Harden Steen's player team option rather for 28 and a half million in 26, 27, maybe, you know, I'm not saying they would decline that.

I just think like that's, I'm sure that some part of their brain is like, it would be really great if two years from now he was not super essential to our, the Chet had ascended and the rest of our team had ascended where it's not like super essential to pay another center this much money. And I bet, and I bet Dort would take a decent like team friendly deal too when it comes to him. The Hart, the Hartenstein signing felt like the cap scheduling signing that we see a lot of teams do where it's like before we have to extend all of these guys, let's just use the space now, add the asset. You got to have the owner sign off on it.

But I mean, he's a, he's a really big story. And remember last year, their fatal flaw felt like the rebounding rebounding rate numbers were atrocious. They weren't great this year. They weren't very good at all in the playoffs, but he wasn't very good in the finals. Now I really think he, he became, you know, they ran the first two plays for him where game six, it was a hard role. And then they did the same thing tonight, but they weren't able to get it to them.

And sometimes when I see that kind of stuff, it's like they want to set the tone to have him be a little bit more engaged offensively. And even his passing is really good. But you know, it's one thing when you're running your regular season offense through him 30 feet away from the hoop and he's kind of passing over the top of defenders if you're caught up in some sort of scramble, but you could see Dagnall with just trying to go away from him. I mean, he started a series of them on the bench. So that's a really expensive luxury to have for a team that's going to have to pay a ton

of other guys. So that special portion of today's episode, where we looked at these conferences brought to you by loom by at last hand with video messaging from loom. You can trade out these. Novel length emails and back to back calls. And finally stop feeling stuck at work, simply record whenever you need to share with your team. No video production or editing skills are needed.

It has easy to use skills and AI features to help you make it exactly what you want, get them back on track, try loom today at Lume.com. That is L-O-M-dot-com. Zach, I don't know how long you're staying, but we got to talk to SGA really fast here because he is the first since Shaq 2000, scoring title MVP, finals MVP. And the problem, with SJ is there's not a lot of controversy with him. There's not a lot to say. There's no zags. He's just scoring 30 to 32 a game. Sometimes it can get a little one dimensional, but I feel like that's probably the fault of his team.

Like we're so laid out earlier. Uh, his assist stuff was really good today, which is a theme that we've seen in the, as we get, especially these finals games that happened with Tatum last year where the unselfishness really comes out as like a strategy, but is there another level for him to go to or is this it? No, I mean, look, it's hard to have another level from MVP, uh, in a year where, in a year where Jokic had the year that he had and you still won MVP and it wasn't like an outrage. Um, uh, I think he stepped up his three point volume this year.

And if you could marry that with some better three point efficiency, he'll continue to grow as a playmaker. I liked the stuff they were doing out of time house with him off the ball. We would talk about that on podcasts where he would set back screens like you knew Lee, but there's like, what else are you supposed to do? I do think it's kind of cool. The whole foul grifting thing kind of faded. Like it wasn't a talking point at all in the finals.

And I didn't feel like it, it needed to be like, he wasn't like shamefully going for fouls and I don't, I think that was always kind of horrible. And it was cool that that just vanished as a storyline. Yeah. What do you guys know? No one talked about Nemheart. Trying to get fouls. Just a little counterpoint there.

Uh, decent Zach. Yeah. Not even a Zach on that one. 8.9. It's funny cause Tatum, the Tatum conversation always felt like, Hey, he's really good. And he's never going to be the best player in the world and it's okay. And the Celtics were always ahead of schedule playing deep into the playoffs. And then it was like, yeah, but you actually think they were going to beat

some of these teams, the Eastern Conference finals are great. And there's, there's a heat or two, one in there that you're like, okay, what went, what went wrong there, uh, especially a couple of years ago, but. It felt like Tatum and maybe it was because of the Olympic stuff where it was like, if this guy is so good, you know, the cool thing for SGA, because it all feels very on schedule with this team. Because as you said, which I think another thing we need to give the Thunder return a credit for is I've heard people talk about them like, oh, they tanked. They just, they had Chris Paul that one season, they get to game seven of the first round against Houston.

And then they have two down years. And then they're right back into it to being competitive. This is one of the quickest resets ever. And again, when you nail on the same draft, Chet and Jalen Williams to go with a guy who's gonna be MVP, like that's, it's pretty good. Like a lot of the hard stuff is done on your to-do list and building out a roster.

So however this team has been around, this isn't like, and this may have led to some of the lack of interest that it wasn't the best player in the game at a young age trying to finally get over the hump, or it wasn't one of the guys who was considered the best player in the game. Like imagine Giannis without a ring being in the NBA finals in 2026, and it's like, man, now maybe with him not being

American, that would be a little different. But there seems to be a need for some dramatic buildup. And the funny thing is this all feels very, very on schedule. Like it makes sense that they, I think they still should have beat Dallas last year. They didn't. They housed Minnesota. We start to think, okay, this pace thing's probably over. Ends up being a terrific series. But them winning this in this year, in this form, even though I still want a little bit more

from the guys around him, it's just so like, like there's nothing disruptive about it at all. It's ahead of schedule. It's ahead of schedule. You think it's ahead of schedule? I mean, the team is supposed to beat them. Well, I'm just saying the team, your teams don't get this good, this fast with this many young players and even Shea's turning 27 in like three weeks.

He's still like not like just entering his traditional prime. Yeah. But like it's basically their second playoff run. So from that standpoint, just based on how the league works, it's how the league works, I would say, yes, they're ahead of schedule. But they were the favorites. Yeah. But based on the competition.

Yeah. But it is weird that they didn't have their version of, you know, the, the, the Steph game in 22, 22 against that Celtics team. Like there's just like the heartbreaking loss. The closest they came to is Shay Fowling who's at PJ Washington in the corner on the three. That was their heartbreaking loss. The closest they came to is Shay Fowling, who is it? PJ Washington in the corner on the three. That was their heartbreaking loss. Usually you have a couple years of those and they just didn't. Flashback to two years ago when Denver wins the title,

if you had said who wins the championship next, who wins the championship sooner, the Nuggets again or the Thunder, you would have, we would have all said the Nuggets. Of course, like the Thunder, their play in team. Like they've before the Zeke Nodging extension though said the Nuggets. Of course, the Thunder, their playing team. Like they- Before the Zeek-Nagy extension though. The play-in, the leap last year, it's a fair point. Again. Before they were crippled by one $8 million extension,

completely paralyzed them. The play-in team to what they were last year is, that's the mega leap. I mean, they made another mega leap this year, but that was the one where I was like, you saw it coming. I didn't think they would make that leap that fast. And that that's like a massive, massive jump.

Yeah. I went, I, I remember doing this before two seasons ago, just trying to figure out, was it realistic and looking at history and there were some, some pretty decent examples, which is why, like if you're Detroit or Orlando, you can look at OKC and be like, Hey, it's not, it's, you know, it's not as crazy as you, as you think. They were below 500 two seasons ago. They were 40 and 42. Right.

But everybody thought that year they're going to have like 20 wins. And, and Rossella, the point you made about how they really only threw away two years, it felt like more than two because all the, all the Poku five out offense, just watching that league pass in real time in February, March, and April. That's why it felt like five years, but it was really only a little cluster of a couple of months. And Poku watched.

Sorry. Yeah, he did. I'm sure he did. How could he not? More bummed out, Poku or Josh Giddy? Josh Giddy's going to get paid. Yeah. Yeah. I guess he is. Giddy will get over it. I bet money Poku didn't watch. He was like, that was last night. I didn't realize.

Well, it is interesting because you think of the initial incarnation of this team. It was SGA and Giddy together. Right. And then there was this moment where Well, it is interesting because you think of the initial incarnation of this team. It was SGA and Gidey together. Right. And then there was this moment where SGA, all of a sudden it's like, yeah, Josh, uh, you're just not going to have the ball allowed anymore. We have this guy and he's going to average 30 points a game this year. Our whole team is moving this way. So maybe you can learn how to shoot some corner threes and push the ball when you

get it. Uh, and that was it. And then SJ just took the team from him. Uh, the Jalen Williams piece him. I remember he was such a fun draft guy. We all, I think the ringer was really high on him that year. Right. Weren't we all in on him as like the, uh, what draft was that?

2022? Well, Zach was one of us. He made shut at the same draft. But I remember, I remember, Charks left him. Like we were, we were, uh, we loved all the... Is there a Jalen Williams for this year for you, Rossello? Do you have one yet? Ooh, uh, you heard of that.

You mean a little Carter Bryant? I don't like Carter Bryant as much as everybody else does. Okay. Like every single team really likes him, and I'm always kinda like, huh, wow, I guess I'm wrong. We shall see. Zach, you should sand that Carter Bryant tape for like about eight minutes.

But you know who J-Dub was for me? I actually should make a list of these guys. There's always a bunch of guys, there's always one guy every draft, maybe not even every draft, maybe every other draft, who I watch him play, I'm not a college basketball guy, I'm not doing that stuff like you guys are, I'm just flying and watch a little YouTube and do this.

There's always one guy who I watch him play his first NBA game and I text like 10 scouts, how the hell was this guy picked 12th or 15th or 17th and not like way higher than that? And Jalen Williams was that guy. I watched him play one time. I was like, whoa, this guy was like, he was 12th, right? Like, and he was like a late riser to get to 12th. That's right. Same drafts.

You know, so that's why I'm still excited about it. Presti took him before. So, you know, does Zach know about Usman Island? It's just Rossello in a cabin with no electricity. Just like. Cabin, sail, it's on shore. Just washed up on shore. I'm reading Mayflower again.

You're trying to get off like Tom Hanks in Castaway, the waves are smashing your raft over and over again. No, he's not giving up. I mean, he's only like 22, right? Isn't he? He's still young. Oh, he's still young. Unfortunately, he's on a team of people who are also 22 and way better than him. I could see a second unit running their offense through him. It was a worse roster. But then again, people used to say this about Neesmith Island, and look what happened.

Well, now I floated out Cam Whitmore Island today, And I'll tell you, we weren't, didn't have enough people working in the office to, to, to write down all the credit cards. People are in, people are ready. People are saying TJ modeled his game after Cam Whitmore. So we have final, finals odds right now on Fandl. Let's go. Okay. See is plus two 20.

It's like far ahead of everybody else. Just to make the finals. No, to win the final win the fun. So this is about as a prohibitive of a favorite coming out of the finals. This we've had. So my thing is if I'm chasing a ring, I'm trying to go East harder than ever now. Right. Like we talked about the LeBron scenario.

Oh boy. What was that four weeks ago, Rossello, when I was throwing Cleveland trades you with LeBron, Jared Allen and Deandre Hunter for LeBron. Something like that. Little who says no actions. Is this what one of us has to say as the no trade clause? Just in case. No, he would have to agree to the trade, but if he's agreeing to a trade, there's

only one place I think he would go. But if you're LeBron, could you talk yourself into that? I don't know. I'm just, I'll put it this way. I haven't taken my eye off that situation. Imagine if Yannis. I know I sound like a lunatic. If Yannis had ended up in the West.

Right. Well now, I mean, we didn't talk about Milwaukee, but more, they weren't trading Yanis anyway, but now they have to feel even more emboldened to keep Yanis and see what they can patch. It's a whole conference of why not us? Just every team, why not us? Is it? Well, I'm going to bring up the Celtics.

It's the 56 minute mark. Um, do the Celtics reevaluate how they're thinking about everything? My quick answer would be only based on the options that present themselves. If somebody thinks they're getting Jalen Brown at a discounted rate, they're probably just going to say no and be a competitive team next year. I would say no. Yeah. I still think they have to slough off some pretty major salary just to, just to do it.

And, uh, it's been a really frustrating, uh, conversation with Celtic fans in my life. We don't seem to understand how the seller cap and trades work, but they're going to trade hollow, they're going to trade drew holiday and get under the second apron. It's like, well, you know, they have to take a contract back. Look, I know these things are very complicated and running a sports league and organizing a sports league and a collective bargaining agreement is very hard.

The NBA has not helped itself be fan friendly in that regard. Like I like the swaps upon swaps upon swaps upon swaps thing. Like I just have regular people in my life who are like, can you explain why this pick is I thought my team had are like, can you explain why this pick is I thought my team had a pick, but my team suddenly doesn't have a pick and it's this pick instead. I'm like, it's, let me direct you to real GM. And even that you might want to get your attorney to help you understand what's written on real

GM to figure out that one. The only one who has it figured out is, is our friend Bobby marks, who just has these screenshots with all the information that he can Twitter pick out at any moment that just tell you exactly what a team has. He's the only one who seems to understand it. I remember who still and I were doing one pod after they did the CBA and we felt like something substantial had happened, but we didn't understand it.

And we were like, this feels like something, it just feels, and we just, and then people started telling us after like, oh yeah, this is a fucking disaster. It's a hard cap. And now Zach officially anointed it a hard cap, but, uh, even the Durant trade, I think that was one of the reasons it's just not easy to make trades anymore. There are all these trap doors that you forget about like, oh, but if I do that, then I'm capped at the first apron. That's right.

If I do this in a trade and like I send a pick over here, then all the first, I'm hard capped at the first apron. So I got to do this. It's like, okay, okay. The cap guys should all make like a million dollars. The best cap guys, because it's so goddamn hard. I'm sorry. I just saw a headline on ESPN. Oh, let's hear it.

Oh no. SGA in the conversation with Jordan and Kareem. What conversation? Tall athletic. Wow. Okay. So I see the headline and it's a it's a talking it's a it's a video clip So I would watch the video clip. Maybe it's single season Accomplishment I'm assuming that's the cut that's the context that would assume it is in in which case It's like okay, you know 30 points a game 30 points a game in the finals again, finals MVP regular, Stephen M. B.

He that's a short. Yeah, I can't wait soon as we're done. I'm gonna find that video Zach's a journalist of the three brings up a great point. Like I get mad whenever it's like somebody else gives the titles I'll look at titles of my own podcast being like that's not what I said Well, there's just no way that anyone is like now he's in that class of player for a holistic career. Like no one would ever say that. It has to be a single season thing. Well, I mean, the most interesting thing with him is the guard conversation that he's in now from start to finish seasons.

So the pool that he's swimming in is pretty crazy. We're going to take a break. Zach, are you, you, you have a, you on East coast time and we're going to talk to rant now. If you want to stay, feel free to stay. No, I will, I will parachute out. I will parachute out and let you guys do the Durant thing. I appreciate you let me crash the party. Uh, the usual Simmons, Priscilla party. And I just, uh, weird night, weird night in the NBA. You're right, Zach. Regular season for one season averages MVP, the whole thing. Great instincts on this guy.

I could be an editor. Congrats. Thank you. Thank you for making me better. Congrats to the Thunder. I'm going to go watch some TJ McConnell highlights before I go to bed. No, you're not. And see what happens.

Enjoy the Durant Trade Talk, guys. No frills, delivers. Get groceries delivered to your door from No Frills with PC Express. Shop online and get $15 in PC optimum points on your first five orders. Shop now at nofrills.ca. We're in Tuck, Durant. We got traded. So on the one hand, I feel like the league should pass a rule. There should be no trades within 24 hours of NBA finals, game seven.

Seems like a decent rule. On the other hand, I don't know how you would a rule. There should be no trades within 24 hours of NBA finals, game seven. Seems like a decent rule. And then there, and I don't know how you would enforce it. And, uh, and I thought it was a pretty fun trade. I thought it was an awesome trade for Houston. I just loved it for them. Uh, I don't, we could talk about the Phoenix part after, but why don't you

just take, don't even ask me a question. Well, we talked about this last week. I had so many more assets in the trade. They didn't give up Jabari Smith in the trade. That's a fucking miracle. Like for Phoenix to trade the rant, it just speaks to what I, I mentioned, I can't remember the last pot I did was Wednesday or Thursday, but like, I just think the offers were so terrible.

Um, everyone lowballed them because everybody knew they had to trade them before the draft and everybody knew they wanted to pick. And, uh, it ends up being Jalen green, who I don't know if there's four teams that they could spin him to for 33 million a year, and then Dylan Brooks, who at 21, 22 million a year, I think is a solid asset if you're trying to, trying to win games. Um, and then the 10th pick and that's basically the trade. So I think for Houston, no brainer 10th pick wouldn't have played for them. Plus you, you get rid of Brooks.

Now you get to play Tar Easton and Whitmore basically give them those minutes plus, um, and Thompson, like I just thought Like I thought the trade was a home run for them. Yeah, I loved it. I mean, Stone is on an absolute heater. He's been incredible. That draft picks, they've been incredible in how they've worked a lot of this stuff. And yeah, we knew that they were limited offensively.

Like the Durant market, right? The Durant market, if we go through it, you knew it was getting bad when you were just least hearing the rumors of like Miami won't include who. First it started with like Kahlel Ware. You're like, okay, I could see why you just wouldn't want to be in a hurry or you would say no until you think like, if you want a Durant that bad,

you're saying no about Ware for days until maybe then you finally give in. But then you're like, Hockes wasn't, come on. Like there's no way because the salary piece you're moving out and Wiggins I think is less attractive than Brooks. Because Wiggins is probably going to get you some numbers, but I don't know that he impacts the game the same way Brooks does. And by the way, shout out to Brooks for all the jokes

when the Lakers eliminated and granted, he brought a lot of it on himself and then he wouldn't do anything with the media after they would lose. So it's not like I was feeling bad for him, but like dudes didn't think he was going to be in this league. And I still think he's somebody who impacts games. And when that contract came out and Houston gave all that money to Brooks and gave the massive deal, the Fred Van Vliet, a lot of us are going like, man, that is so much money for that level of dude. But it's like, well, we got to spend it on somebody. We probably have to overspend this way. Now we're Houston and they flip Brooks into Durant.

So like, there's just all these things you can look at with Stone being like, Oh, he did that right. That worked out well. So credit to him credit to the Rockets. You guys who he knew could play in playoff series and they did. Right. So like the Yaka Pertle part of it, like, was he really not available? Well, maybe not.

I'd probably like them a little bit more than Zach does. And considering how expensive Toronto is, like they're going to have to get one of Like, was he really not available? Well, maybe not. I'd probably like him a little bit more than Zach does. And considering how expensive Toronto is, like they're gonna have to get one of the expensive guys, get like, rid of one of those dudes. When you heard the Knicks rumors, like now we've come full circle. It's like, well, first of all,

apparently they didn't want him. But the early stuff on that was Mitchell Robinson and Ochi. Now when I look at that, I'm like, Phoenix would have been pumped. I love Mitchell Robinson now. I was thinking Townsford Durant straight up. I mean, that's like three times what Houston paid. Yeah, so that's not happening.

And then when it comes back to Minnesota, I can understand like with Randall, the play up, a player option, which he probably ops into at like 30 million, because I don't think he wants to opt out and go to this free agent market. But then it's like, if you're Phoenix, do you want to get in the Randall business for 30 plus another 60 plus million over two years?

I don't know. I don't know that there's a ton of teams that want to do that kind of stuff. And then even San Antonio, and I'm finishing here quickly, but like San Antonio, if they had done it and whatever their case was, I would have been like, okay, yeah, that makes sense. And if they don't do it, which obviously they didn't,

then I could also understand their position on that one being like, yeah, maybe it doesn't make a lot of sense to add Durant here because you're not just adding a 37 year old player who's terrific score. You're adding somebody who doesn't have the greatest history with how happy he stays with franchises and the fact that he's going to cost you like another 120 million, which this probably was worked out ahead of time for him to be like signing off on this, even

though we had heard last summer right around this time almost exactly to the day a year ago that he wanted Houston, but Phoenix didn't want to move him out. All right. So you put all that together and I think it kind of makes sense that this is what the price ended up being, isn't it? Yeah. Well, for you Houston, you're getting somebody who can shoot the ball in the

last four minutes of a game and maybe appear on a panel about the future of the intersection between athletes and business. There we go. Get those two, those two verticals covered now. Are you mad that Ruben didn't invite you again this year? I got invited. I just went to New York. We didn't go.

White party. You going to that? I don't go back Eastern in the summer. I'll try not to. How about you? Uh, I go back to Vermont. Usually I go back to the vineyard. No, it's a no brainer for Houston.

I think it's great for Durant. I was really excited because I want him to have one last act. I wanted him to go to the right team. I think Miami is a disaster and I really am dubious how much Miami even wanted him or what Miami wants to do in general. Well, if they didn't want to add, Hockes legitimately didn't want to put him in a deal after all the other guys they want to put in a deal, then they clearly didn't want him that bad. No.

High Smith? If I had a buddy who was selling Ford Bronco and I knew you know, Ford Bronco, and I knew you love Ford Broncos. I'm like, this dude's it's like a 1973 Ford Bronco. He's like giving it away. And you're like, yeah, I don't know. I'm like, but you told me last week, you really wanted a Ford Bronco. This guy it's right here. This is, so I just don't think Miami, I don't think that Miami knows what they want to do.

We talked about this last week. I think they're a mess. I don't think they, they have any idea whether they should be trying to pursue and try to be good in the playoffs or go the other way. So Durant didn't happen to give him an extension. Just didn't seem like they want to do it. You're paying a hundred million dollars a year to him and Tyler Hero, where are you going?

Right. A year from now? Is that a recipe for anything? In the East? Well well i guess in the east but um so anyway with houston the fact that i what's really interesting to me about this is they kept their flexibility for one more trade if they want to do it and i don't know whether that trade happens in the summer or whether it happens in the December, January, February range. But like, for instance, as we covered many times, Yannis is not

getting traded this summer, but if it's January and they're 15, the bucks are 15 and 25 and he's like, you know what? This sucks. Let's it's time. Four bucks fans. They still have their chance. If the Celtics changed their mind and they're like, God damn, we didn't realize we'd be this bad and we're going to pay how much money in luxury tax?

Like, yeah, maybe we will trade Jaylen Brown. They have the flexibility still in some of the assets to make a second move, which I thought this was going to be their move. And this might be move number one. So I thought from that standpoint, great. And then from a Durant standpoint, I'm excited to see him in playoff games again, because I thought from that standpoint, great. And then from a Durant standpoint, I'm excited to see him in playoff games again, because I thought it sucked. Those teams that he was on, basically since that Brooklyn Bucks game

were not fun teams to watch, you know, and teams that had real, no, no real upside. From a Phoenix standpoint, I have no idea what they're doing. You have to really like that 10th pick. You have to feel like you're getting somebody who is going to be potentially like an all NBA guy. If that's the centerpiece, because we know it's not Jalen Green and Booker together. I can't imagine how those guys are playing together. And then you got Bradley Beal next to them.

What is this? It's a lot of depth. What is this? Yeah. No, I know. One position. I'm worried about your guy. I don't know if you want to talk to somebody about all your Booker stock, but you might

want to like get rid of some. It won't be his fault. Just like diversify the portfolio. Yeah. We're probably going to have to make the call tomorrow, but you know, there's a lot of other factors. I like, let's have a Jalen Green conversation. Like right now, what do you think?

Like, what do you think about this? I want him to go to a bad team and have the ball a lot for like a year. That's what I think. I'd love to see him. And maybe Phoenix will be the bad team. I do feel like there's something there and I think he's young and I think he's had stretches

that made both of us go, wow, I thought he got worse last year as the season went along. And I thought in the playoffs, um, they were scared to even have him out there in some of the fourth quarters, but he's still young enough that there might be something there. I don't, can you run an offense with him as like the creator slash looking out for everybody else? We haven't seen it yet. Um, well, you could argue, which is why I'd want to see him on a bad team. Yeah,

I know what you're saying. I mean, his second year, he had almost a 30% usage rate on the team that won 20 games. So I don't know that Houston's ever shied away from exactly what you're talking about. Like, but I, but an older version of him to be fair to you, exactly. I know what you're saying. You're saying, okay, fifth year version of him. I don't know if that's the recipe because clearly he's gonna get his buckets if you give him the shots. And when you get drafted as high as he gets drafted,

it's a bit like a top draft pick in baseball where they almost always will call him up even if they don't know that he deserves a roster spot. Like Volpe. Like how that Volpe's just in the Yan roster spot. Or. Like Volpe. Like how that Volpe's just in the Yankees, even though he's Volpe. Big bonuses, signing bonus stuff

would happen in baseball all the time where you'd be like, why does this guy get called up? There's like five other guys in AA that are better than him. It's like, well, we didn't spend the resources on them, so we have to make sure we know whether we're right or wrong on this guy. So I think there's, it's not apples to apples,

but there's a close parallel there between Jaylen Green being picked this high and going, all right, go to work. And I know I've already referenced it before too many times on the pod, because we just did it. But that stretch when Shungoon was out at the end of the regular season last year was when I thought this light went off for him.

Two seasons ago. Yeah, but then you go to where he was in the playoffs But then you go to where he was in the playoffs and you're like, hey, your counters don't work and you can't shoot and we desperately need, like the possessions are there for you. We don't really love any of our options here. It's not like there's two awesome Hall of Fame scores and you're getting shut out because you're the third option. Like we're allowing you to be a one option here offensively probably a lot longer than anybody else would want to. And again, credit to Stone.

We're in the playoffs and we need you. Yeah. Yeah. And you can't, so, Hey, he didn't, he didn't close out a bunch of playoff games his fourth year in. That's probably being a little harsh, but I think he needs to figure out how to play with somebody else. And maybe that's good for him and Booker.

I, you know, I don't know, or maybe they want nothing to do with it. And they're happy to get the pick. They're happy to have Brooks to add some kind of toughness because whatever it is Phoenix is doing is it feels like they're still trying to fix this thing on the fly around Booker, which is usually just going to make it worse. I don't think if the goal is to keep Devin Booker as your franchise guy through his entire prime, I don't know if this trade is going to help that. Who's your best case scenario for them in the 10th pick who could actually

come in and play real minutes for them and be good for them? Because I don't think Malwatch is going to be there. So I don't know that he's going to be there. How's he wants him at six? Vasini thinks he will be there when we talk. I don't even know if we did that on the pod because I like Malawatch more than he did. He does way more work on it.

So I would defer to him if you're listening to this, but. I listened to that whole podcast on Saturday morning. Thank you, Bill. Had a coffee, seven o'clock in the morning. When somebody writes 160,000 words about the draft, I'm gonna give them an hour. He's literally wrote 160,000 words. It's insane.

That's like almost the size of what my book was. Just banging about. Every year. Unbelievable. Yeah. It's unbelievable how. And so we were talking about the Malawatch range because then there was this guy, Noah Asenge, who's playing in the German league.

And then somebody else hit me up and was like, you know, we went to their facility. They were playing your podcast. Like, do you feel bad now about what you said about Asenge? And I was like, you know what, I'm mad. I'm mad that draft people are talking about his incredible free throw rate. And I'm like, you know what, I'm mad. I'm mad that draft people are talking about his incredible free throw rate. And I'm like, I watched the games. I can't believe the horseshit stuff that he got calls. You made him better. Maybe it was a wake up call for him.

You're talking about how he's falling down all the time. Yeah. Get up, dude. What's going on down there? So yeah, if there's a center, but this is a weird, cause after Malawatch, unless you like Berenger more, um, which I don't think that's, that seems a little high for him. I do like Sorber, the kid from Georgetown.

And again, the mock stuff is stupid because then you keep looking at him and then you're like, I love this guy at 14. It's like, you can't take him at 10. No, but there was one, you guys had a disagreement on one guy that I thought was fascinating because I thoughtars was guaranteed top 10 and Sam had him 18th and was like, look, I don't like small guards. And he can't show me. He's like, show me this, show me this small guard with shooting issues.

That's come into the NBA and been awesome. And I was like, ah, cause I just had him in that seven to nine range just assumed. But that, that put the fair guy to me a little bit. What I do love about this draft after the first two is that Trey Johnson, the Texas kid, makes the most NBA type shots of any player in this draft. And can't finish anything. Can't finish the draft.

Just atrocious numbers. He's basically the best version of Eddie House you've ever seen in your life. That's my Trey Jatson take. It's Eddie House on a heater. He's a little bigger than Eddie. VJ's got the most motherfucker in him out of this group and Knipple is the most adaptable. And I don't know what's going to happen because then you keep hearing that Utah likes Fears at five, because if you're talking yourself into fears, you go, he can already get to the rim and get past

defenders in a way that is so special. There's no way they can take him fifth. I can't accept it. Why? Because of Utah's roster because of him. I just think he's, you can't, you have to take who's left between Vijay and Ace Bailey and Knipple. you have to take who's left between VJ and Ace Bailey and Kniepel. You have to.

And if you want to get nuts and take Malyus there, maybe fine. You can talk me into the centerpiece, but you can't take fears. Twin towers, Kessler and Malawatch. Well, they need to trade Kessler to the Lakers for the two first round picks. They've been allegedly offering for a year and a half. to the Lakers for the two first round picks they've been allegedly offering for a year and a half. I just feel like Utah has to, they have to be dying for VJ or Kniepel to get there. And if neither of them in there, they're just going to take Trey Johnson because he'll,

he's the best asset at five. Like that's how it has to play out. I don't know what Danny's role is as far as like the final say now with Austin there. And of course, Zanuck was a big part of all of this stuff that happened. But Danny was getting on. Right. Ryan Smith has final say listening to Danny. And I think those other guys are in the room would be my guess.

Ace feels like such a Danny pick. It really does. To be like, what's wrong with these? Right? Yeah. He's like, I watch Ace. I see a 30 point a game score. Yeah.

Cause the stuff to be scared of with ACE it's so funny. Cause if he turns out to be a bust, you go see the stuff, the way he handled his representation, the Rutgers, that team never won. Um, the, the, the, the fact that his assist rate, you could just point to all these different things, but like, if you watch the rate, you can see the, the, the, the, the fact that is a cyst rate, you could just point to all these different things. But like, if you watch the right YouTube clip on him, you like, like you think he's in the running to go head to head with flag and Harper. Like there's one of those hoop intellect had some really good YouTube videos. Shout out to that guy.

I don't understand why you want, do you not have synergy access? No, but I'd like watching, I like the YouTube guys where the guy tells me the strengths and weaknesses. I like those clips. There's a hoop intellect. That's a good one. Cause I think there's like a Marty Conlon YouTube clips still going around being like, how did it not happen for this guy? Well, that's the thing you, I like seeing the weaknesses cause like VJ, the weaknesses were what you pointed out. It's like, how come every time he drives to the basket, he whips the ball against the backboard and it goes flying the other way. It's like, at some point the guy can't make a layup.

That seems like an issue. But with ACE, there was a chase down block section that was like the most exciting 45 seconds I've had in June, other than maybe the Halliburton game winner in game one. He looks like LeBron on these chase down blocks, like 2012 LeBron. So I don't, there's just like a lot going on both ways. Like can clearly score from 18 to 20 already, like nobody you've seen, but I also think he might not play for two years. So for Utah, do you care?

Well, Utah should be doing anything based on need. And the fact like, I'm always trying to think about like, cause Danny's drafting habits, anytime he just sort of, you're like, Oh, Mark is smart. Yeah, that makes sense. And you could say, I remember one time I'd asked him, we had like press availability. I didn't go to many of those, but one time I was just there while family. I went, what's the most important asset? Like what's the most important trait to have?

And it was, He was like, oh, he's shooting. He's like, shooting, shooting. Then you're like, okay, well, that doesn't really make a lot of sense of fears. Then you could count that by saying, well, he took Rondo. It's like, no, he took Rondo because he thought Rondo was a freak and every other thing. That's what took him 20th. Right. He also couldn't believe how much he had fallen because I think they had him like six or seven. But the Jalen Brown conversation, because you remember that draft, very clear. It's Ben Simmons, it's Ingram one and two,

and then it was a constant like, what the hell is going to happen at three? Because there's all these other names. People kept thinking Chris Dunn, it's like, well, if they don't like him and he played at Providence, then nobody should want to draft him, even though Chris Dunn had a nice little revival this year with the Clippers,

but certainly not what you're thinking of with the number three pick. But the Jaylen Brown conversation, because that Cal year was a mess, right? Cal was there, that other kid was there, there were big time recruits, the Jaylen Brown conversation, because that Cal year was a mess, right? Cal was there, that other kid was there, there were big time recruits, and Jaylen didn't even look like he knew

how to play basketball yet. But the age argument was physically, he was so gifted in his size, and there were still some like, you know, we're talking about Jaylen Brown's handle Cal, but he wasn't worried about all the other basketball stuff as much as he thought like this guy kind of fits the mold of this big athletic wing. And, you know, if we let them just kind of get loose, he might figure some things

out. And I've been thinking about that when I've been thinking about Bailey, but the difference that we know, Wait, hold on. Can we, can I add one thing on that Danny thing? Cause it's a really important point you just made and there's one piece you're missing and we've talked about it before, I think a million years ago. Danny loves pedigree.

And if you go back, like you mentioned that Jaylen thing, the ESPN top 100, Jaylen was the fourth guy in that class. Right. Danny doesn't care about what, oh, what was your college year? Like, like they took Avery Bradley that year at 19. He was the number one guy in high school the year before. Ace Bailey, the number two guy a year ago, and went to this weird Rutgers team where they basically just had two guys and nobody else.

Right? It's got weird representation. It's all fixable stuff. Danny's going to look at the pedigree, which is why I don't feel like, I don't feel like fears is in play for them. If you look at that draft last year, first of all, there were five guys that were 95s or higher in that draft class. Cooper one, ACE two, VJ three, Harper four, Trey Johnson five.

And I just think he's a pedigree guy and he's going to take one of those five guys, whoever's left, they're taking. And if it's a race, Bailey, they're taking them. It's a great point. Cause it was a big to take one of those five guys, whoever's left there taking. And if it's a great family, they're taking them. It's a great point. Cause it was a big Bob Myers thing back in the day, like Patrick Baldwin Jr was a five star. We're supposed to go to Duke then. Right. That's a good example. Kavan Looney was like a big time high school guy before he went to UCLA.

So there's a lot of that stuff there too. The Avery Bradley calls perfect. Now what I'd also say, and this is really about the draft and trying to figure out what the hell Utah is going to do is if Ainge thinks that Ace is not wired to be competitive, because clearly Jalen Brown had that in him. Even if you don't like Jalen Brown, you know when he takes the court. Rational confidence. Right. He thinks he's going to win. If he picks up on anything that he thinks like ace is

checked out when it comes to that. So even with the pedigree, even with the physical stuff, even with the classic like, I can't believe this guy's still here at Fox because that's what it would be if they were to take him and go, we're not even good now. So the idea that we're supposed to worry about how does he fit in with the rest of the roster, like who cares? If they don't take him, I would imagine there's something that Ange thinks is alarming about the way the kid is wired, which is again, why everybody makes mistakes on this stuff,

because we don't really know. The Wizards passing him on six, that will mean there's some real fears going on that all the NBA people know and that we're not even knowing about. Like just about work ethic, work habits, stuff like that. Because for the Wizards to pass on him would be insane. That's like a miracle if he gets to six.

It wouldn't make a ton of sense there. It would at least make more sense that that's why he's shutting down these interviews and workouts because he's thinking, which a lot of the guys do think, is like, well, if I go to Washington, I can give up the money from pick three to pick six because I'm going to get so many touches. Although, Bob Carrington may have something to say about that. Alex Sartre. Let me show you how it works here in Washington. I like Bob.

So, okay, well, let me ask you, what do you think Darrell's going to do if he has to have the pick? Cause you know. So two options. You love this. This is draft week is my favorite Rosilla. Uh, if they keep the pick, I think it's VJ. I've been saying that all along. I just think he fits the Darrell profile. Um, I feel like they're going to do some trade back a spot, trade back, like

stay in the top five, but try to trade back and pick up an asset and try to leverage Charlotte, who I think really does want, wants VJ. And I think, uh, if Charlotte can move up for not a huge price and take VJ and just make sure they get him at three I just I feel like he's gonna move back a spot and end up with Kniepel Kniepel checks a lot of Darrell boxes Can play with the lineup they have He's got size. He rebounds

There's some stuff when when flag wasn't playing or when flag was in foul trouble where the offense said, like, I don't know, I mean, I'm, I'm biased cause I like them, but, uh, I just feel like he's the most additive guy in the draft and Darrell has always gravitated toward those guys. Like, remember he made that shame bad day trade. How many years ago was that? It was just like, we didn't have the stats to quantify all the stuff. Shame bad day was good at and Darrell had the first, the 1.0 version of those stats and was just like, no, no, when he's in the lineup, all of these awesome things happen.

And it's not about the counting stats. It's this, this, this, this, this. I think can nipples like that. I think they need a guy like that. They need like a connector shooter. It doesn't need the ball that much. That's asking a lot though of a team with now title aspirations coming in and being like, all right, let's honestly think they have title aspirations.

Cause I don't. You think like they think you think Darrell thinks, Oh, everyone's talking about Cleveland and Orlando and like, why, why not us? Like, I think he's thinking, can Embiid play 40 games? Okay. Sure. Right. But I was thinking about this the other day and like the hall that

Phoenix sent out for Durant and what they get, you know, not even two years later. Right. It's, it's what we call a sunk cost. It's brutal. Like when you see the side by side and you're like, that is one way to derail. We both like the trade. We just didn't understand why Cam Johnson was in it, is my memory, but we both thought

it was a good trade for them. They're getting an awesome player. I'm fine with thinking it's good to get Kevin Durant, if you can get him. Yeah. If that ends up being something. I still don't know why Cam Johnson was in it, but. But yeah, you're right.

Look, it's very new owner syndrome, right? So yeah, two years, right? Two years of not even, well, right. We have to go back to February. When was the trade? It was February, right? It was Super Bowl week because it was in Arizona. I was thinking about Phoenix this morning when you were hearing that it might happen

in the side-by-side thing we just talked about, but it's very simple to be like, well, they shouldn't have waited. I said, well, they just got them. Okay. So, and if you're Phoenix, you're going, we won 47 games last year and we didn't have all of our guys, last year and we didn't have all of our guys or 45 games, excuse me. Um, we didn't have all of our guys playing together at the same time. You know, we didn't have enough flexibility. We kind of figure out some things on the margins. And if these three guys can all play together, we feel a little bit better about the center of rotation and we have shooting to play off of what should be a ton of help to these three dynamic on-ball scores.

That's when people were still tricked by Beal. I don't blame Phoenix for saying if, because this league more than any other league, you could argue at the same with quarterbacks and your pitching staff and break and spring training, but because there's so few players, there's way more conversation of talking yourself into the if scenario. Same thing with the Clippers. We went way over on the Sun's 47 and a half. We thought they were going to be good last year.

Yeah, I thought they would be a 51 team. So they're thinking, hey, if we could, if this, if this were to break, you know, it's better than the unknown or like hitting the reset button when the owner gets pissed about it. Your business partners get pissed about it. your business partners get pissed about it, your vet players get pissed about it. Now we in the media really overrate the simplicity of just wow, tear it all down and star all over again. The same reason why the Clippers would sit there again and go,

well, hey, look, but if, but if Kawhi is healthy, and here were the Clippers with this incredible close of the season, maybe the best defense in the NBA over that stretch and then they lose in the first round again. All right, whatever. I imagine Josh Harris and Darrell and everybody's playing this if game, especially with all of the injuries that we've seen throughout the East in the playoffs. So for you to say like, do I think they're a title contender with Embiid's track record? It's not a good bet, but the if scenario here is even more appealing than it was yesterday for them.

So that's why I like it much even as, as much as I love canipple. Can you imagine it Embiid trying to play 10 straight playoff weeks though? That's why I can't come on. No, I can't. You're right. I can not. I just, I'm out. I've given up on that possibility.

I would say 50 to 1-0. But what if, you know, the rest of them. Right. What if he does? What if it's March and you're like, hey, you know, Cleveland has a great regular season record. The Knicks have a really nice record. If the Knicks are the same team, they're gonna be good. Even with a different coach, they're still gonna be a really good team. And then, you know, as the Orlando,

this Frans ever gonna hit a fucking shot here. Right. If you're the Sixers, like, I don't know that you should be afraid of any of that stuff. The scariest thing is the team that you see in the mirror, not necessarily anybody else in the Eastern Conference. So I know this has become a far more expanded conversation around Conk and Ipple and we both love the guy, but that's asking a lot of him.

You're like, all right, huge game. Five minutes ago in the fourth quarter. Like, all right, we're going to get Con initiating some of this stuff. And I do think he could play 20 to 25 minutes a game for a good team. I think he can figure out anything that is needed of him. It's just a matter of whether or not he'll be able to execute those things. Like he won't be lost in a basketball court because he's so like, that was my favorite thing once I really dug into him, just how smart he was off ball cutting. And you know, when he, I just, there's so many basketball players when they have the ball and

it's all predetermined, it's fine. But when they get stuck, you know, it's like a college quarterback who we were talking about this, I think, with the scene, he were college quarterback. It's like, all right, these are the two reads. Like, this is the this is who you're trying to beat. If you see the safety, do this, then just throw it underneath. Keep moving the chains. It's like, all right, so this guy threw four thousand yards. Like, is he good?

And like, no, he's not any good. It's like, all right, so this guy threw 4,000 yards. Like, is he good? And like, no, he's not any good. And there's a lot of guards that it's like, okay, we're setting the ball screen here, you're going to go here. If the help comes off the corner, then it's open to three. And if this guy plays up, then you should be able to have the roll guy. And it's like, what happens if both things stop?

Am I going to like, yeah, I have to decide. I have to come up with something. And that's one of my favorite things about Kniepel is that I thought he saw the game at a level that I couldn't believe for his age. He'd be really good for any of these teams. The thing that's a bummer is that the number three pick isn't. Like we have like flag, then we have Harper, and then it drops again. I wish the number three pick was good enough that we could really have a Utah Paul George trading up from five to three, but you have to take Paul George's contract. Like I actually wish, cause I think, I think Danny would do it.

I don't think he would care. Like fine. Paul George is still pretty good. If we can go from five to three and get this guy, I'll take the contract. I don't care, but it's not, it's not worth it in this draft to do that. I don't think five to two is a different scenario, but I don't think the Spurs would go near. I think the one thing that's changed over the last two weeks, I said this to you last week is I think the, I think once the Spurs got a

little closer to Harper really like diving into him, they were like, Oh shit. Okay. We don't, we don't screw the Kevin Durant idea. And I still wonder with Fox is, I still think a wild card for the summer. Yeah. I, you're going to wonder though, like if that was the Fox market that just happened. Then, but wasn't part of that teams were afraid of, uh, of clutch and they wanted to go to the spurs and some people kind of backed off cause they felt like he was

headed that way anyway. I don't, I don't feel like it was an official trademark. It seemed like he's like, he wants to go there. And then that's how it played out. Okay. But that entirely may be true. And I think there is, I don't know. It's hard for me to remember all of this stuff with this, but

it's always a good reminder that when we hear about teams making calls, and I've even made this mistake too, which I regret when I make it, but I think these teams are constantly canvassing the league to kind of get an idea of like, hey, would you ever do this without any intention of ever doing any of those things, but just trying to figure out what the value is? And that Fox trade, they didn't really give up. No, it was a no brainer. So you're bringing in even as flawed as like, even the most ardent detractors of Fox,

like I still like him. I still liked Aaron Fox. You know, I'm not saying he's perfect, but I like him, but the market wasn't that strong for him. You're going to like him as much when he gets like a $230 million extension for four years, might not like him quite as much, but I'll still like him. If both of us were GMs, like you're running in New Orleans, I'm running like Charlotte. I would call you all the time.

Why? I would have like five GM friends that I just called constantly to check in. And then every once in a while I'd be like, no, what's up with, uh, what's up with Mark Williams? And just, you know, cause I'm sure they just are shooting the shit on the phone, right? It's like, Oh, my buddy's calling. And then at some point you can kind of steer it toward feeling out if a guy's available or not.

And I'm sure that like Danny and Kevin McHale, I'm sure Danny would do that all the time when McHale was in Minnesota, right? You're not going to trade KG, right? He's just, you know, just kind of working it. But I think that's how, I think think this is how some of this shit works. I think these guys just, there's certain guys that just call everybody all the time. Check in.

Well, I imagine like anything, there's talkers, guys that can't help themselves. And it's like, even though he's my friend and I've known him for 30 years in the business, if I can just get him on the phone, start bullshitting, like maybe he'll say something, because that was the old Dan Duquette thing, is that he used to not talk. You'd be on the phone with him and he wouldn't say something. Cause that was the old Dan Duquette thing is that he used to not talk.

You'd be on the phone with him and you wouldn't, he wouldn't say anything. And you have to make conversation. Right. Right. Cause he felt like- It was the John Walsh interview move. John Walsh's famous move. Not talk.

You'd be, you're in a job interview and he would just be silent and it was like a power move and then you would start talking. Yeah. He recommended a good book then you would start talking. Yeah. He recommended a good book when I met with him. Yeah. Game changer. We'll do that. Yeah.

Do that too. Let's stay on this though, because I was thinking about the Luca trade again. Great example. The best ever example. Exactly. Nico just bitching about Luca, Luca Dutchess one day and Palenque going, hey, and then all of a sudden they're negotiating. Right.

Because I was looking at all the picks that Bain got. It was like, you know, we're not sure that Luca is going to resign here. So we can only give you this one pick. We can't even do a swap. We can't even do a swap. We can't even do a swap. I don't know if Plink will ever write a book, but since Nikos is guy, which he clearly had the inside track on this entire thing, why there was no market for Luka

because no one else knew that he was available. And some of this after the fact reporting on like, well, they had called this team, but then you hear from the team that they're like, we didn't, they were asking for our best player saying Luka wasn't part of it. We didn't like whatever you want to do to make this look better for Nico. But if Palinka ever writes a book.

And I wish you could get Palinka to like completely tell the truth. But like that moment when Nico said, I would do this, I would do Luca for AD and, you know, figure out the rest of it. AD and Reeves. And it'd be like, well, we're not trading Reeves. Is it still a conversation? And there's a pause and it goes like, yeah, there might be. Cause you wonder if Rob, based on what we're talking about, like with guys

calling each other, is Rob thinking, I've heard you bitch about this guy for like two years because we've known each other for so long and was that This is all hypothetical. I don't know the answer to this stuff That's why I wonder if it would ever come out of the book because could Rob ever just be like I couldn't believe it I couldn't believe it then make his friend Nico look bad Which would feel kind of shitty if they still have a good relationship I mean blink I should love him now But if Palinka would ever in that moment, honestly answer 20 years from now in

some interview where he was on the phone being like, holy shit, I can't believe I'm actually going to be able to do a trade that a trade like this, that is just not supposed to happen. I would also love to know the whole Magic's last year with the Lakers when Magic went on first take and said he got stabbed in the back by Plinka and then they were fine. I would love a whole chapter on that in the Plinka book. I'd also love a chapter on the, on playing with the fab five, the Plinka book. I'm, I'm signing up right now.

I'm pre-ordering it. Mark Twain would publish it. He was big in the publishing business, killed it with grants grants But then wanted to do a book on the Pope and the Pope was like, are you sure? He was like you read a Mark Twain book right now. Yeah, just finished turnouts Mark Twain book I already interviewed Chernow last week. We're gonna run a summer. Yeah Yeah, it was on the list, but you would call me all the time I think I'd get sick of you calling me that much though Cuz I think you would be trying to get over on me.

Be like, let's see if we're just be checking in. Let's see if Rosillo has a couple of Coors lights. You'd be checking in. Cause I know you would start bitching about somebody on your team within like 10 minutes. You'd be like, fucking Jose Alvarado. This fucking guy should have seen him. This guy wants a bobble head? He should have seen him in the fourth quarter calling for Isos. It's like, you're lucky you're playing.

But see, I would know you too well though, cause then you would be on the phone with Darryl being like, Rosillo hates Alvarado. Like I think you can get it for a top 50 protected. There must be like an honor among people. But you must have your two or three GMs where you're like, these are your guys. Like if you're bitching about your team to the other GM, I'm sure you get feedback from somebody you know who works for a team who's listening to this afterwards.

But I'm sure you get, I'm sure you have your guys that you feel like you can vent to. I'm sure. Friend to friend. That must exist. I'm sure that exists. But I think this is one of the fascinating parts

about the job. And that's why, you know, you can bring it full circle here with a thunder. But I think this is one of the fascinating parts about the job. And that's why, you know, you can bring it full circle here with a thunder. Presti, when he's at the combine, back when it was at the old one, when I would host it, he wouldn't even stand there anymore. I don't know if he still does it now because none of us are even allowed to kind of, even though we can get in, we can't go to this big section, which is fine. We shouldn't be able to go over that section.

When I was still hosting it, I could walk wherever I wanted to, but now that I have nothing to do with it, I shouldn't be over there. I think I went to get a box score once and I was kind of like, you know what? I shouldn't do this anymore. But I remember years and years ago, Presti like, Hey, you're not anchoring it anymore, buddy, put the, put the box score back. Presti was like standing by himself, like arms folded. And I'm like, is he that freaked out that he can't even like sit six

seats away from somebody else? And I was like, yeah, maybe. That was, I forget the player, but that was, I think it was Dave Cowans. That was a red, our back boom where we went to scout Cowens and he stormed out at halftime. Yeah. And people were like, Whoa, red hated Cowens, but he loved them. Yeah.

So, you know, anytime he went to a game, people knew he was there. Can we do draft really quick? So Harper second, if you had to bet edge come now is almost a three to one favorite on Fandl to go third. So it was just, would you go chalk and say Edgecom to Philly number three, Knipple four, and Danny says, fuck it and takes Ace Bailey five? Would that be your prediction? No, I really don't have any, I'm probably a day or two away for feeling good about it.

You know, just because of just bullshitting with guys and, and, cause everybody has a different board for everybody else right now. But if you had to pick, if I had to, right. Uh, would you have Bailey going to Utah or somebody else? That means Trey Johnson's going sixth. No, that would mean Trey. Yeah. That means Trey Johnson's going sixth.

No, that would be Trey. Yeah. My whole Bailey Utah exercise was just you and I talking out. I think seeing what Ains does. Trey Johnson, Utah. He can shoot. I think you're right. You and I see this day anything the same way. I think he fucking takes ace Bailey.

His whole history of the last 20 years is he would take ace Bailey. So unless there's some massive red flag that we don't know about, I just think that's the kind of guy he takes. Unless he, if he feels like, okay, I saw enough from him that I think he might check out of games and he's not, he's not competitive enough because then I think it's kind of a no, that's like a deal breaker for somebody like age because even with the pedigree, you know, I'm not saying everybody's perfect, but he likes guys with a little motherfucker in him too.

I'm not the other Gabe Vincent was starting fights with anybody, but well, the other piece with him is Gabe Pruitt. Excuse me. If you're, are you drafting somebody because you think you have one more tank year in you? What Austin Ange said about, we're done tanking. If you feel like there's one more year you want to throw away, Ace Bailey's perfect for that because he's probably a year or two away from having any sort of impact at all. Here's the thing, is there's no one you're taking at that pick that is now preventing you from taking true.

Like you could say he is like, he is like a project. Uh, tricky. I'll come in and be fun off the bench. Like I think right away, I think he would be, he'd definitely be a league pass guy where I could see you texted me in December and be like, yo, you watching Trey right now? Like he's one of those guys. He can absolutely light it up. And there's zero fear.

And he lighted up like 16 points in four minutes kind of guy. So I know some people have talked about like it not being necessarily like the best fit for him and granted they're making a coach change anyway, but I mean, that was still a pretty efficient offense from that group. And, you know, he's going to be set up off the ball a lot, which is probably what they need. I mean, God, they've got so many guys who love having the ball in their hands. And, you know, I don't think that you're sitting here. I think Zach was smart to kind of bring up, I don't know, maybe you were, I forget if you were Zach did an hour or so ago, bringing up like who would be the line above Jeremy Grant where Markkinen would be, he would

be above it, I would think, but Markkinen is probably not good enough to go, no, we've got our one and we'll figure out the rest of the pieces later. So, I mean, Austin Ainge can say we're not tanking. I just, I think the rule is you can't ever say that you actually are, but I don't know who they would pick to be like, holy shit, they're not tanking now. They just took VJ fell to them. Right. Can I test drive a couple of draft stuff?

I'm not done with my sweep yet, but I'm, I'm pretty close. I know I let you down with VJ to three. I'll say yeah, but you didn't let me down. I wanted to test drive a couple, a couple half-assed just doing, doing my rounds, stuff that jumped Malcolm Gladwell blink test stuff. I love it. I love the, you know what? There's value in the blink test. I'm pretty doing my rounds, stuff that jump, Malcolm Gladwell blink test stuff. I love it. I love the, you know what?

There's value in the blink test. Sometimes I'm pretty good in that. I've been pretty good over the years with that. I don't see it with Danny Wolfe. I know he's polarizing. I don't see it. What's all you like? Does he shoot it well enough?

No, I can't, well, I can't imagine him in games like the ones that we just watched the last two rounds, like just where would he be? Like, could he put up stats on a team? Sure. But like, if I'm actually trying to win the title, where am I playing him? And is the, is the ball running through him? Like, I, I just, who, who are the examples of running through him?

Who are the examples of guys like him that have been impact dudes on actual good NBA teams in the last 20 years? I just have a lot of questions. If he's in the 13 to 17 range, that's one thing, but some people are saying he could go in that seven to 10 range. That just seems pretty high to me. If you're saying that Danny Wolf to you would not crack the rotation of two of the deepest teams in the NBA that just played for a championship, I would agree with you.

Let's go final four. Let's go final four. Let's go last eight. The problem is the best thing about, well, the best thing is probably his rebounding, but it's that you're letting him have the ball in his hands as this 6'11 point guard. So there's a little. Who's doing that though, when we're in like May. Tall or Joe Ingalls? Jingle juice.

Tall or Joe Ingalls. That's interesting. All right. So we've seen that work a little bit. Ingalls was an incredible, like pick and roll read decision guy. And, you know, look, if you stick Danny Wolf in the corner and be like, Hey, you're only doing this, then don't take them. There's, there's no point.

He's a very unique player. Does such a coward thing worries me? Like to get on the board there. This is a bit like the Jalen Williams question from before, where it's like bunch of guys that were draft. People were like, you know, who's pretty good as that guy at Santa Clara. And then the first time I watched Cedric Howard, I didn't see where Vasini had him in his rankings.

I go, dude, I love Cedric Howard. He goes, yeah, me too. I have him ninth. And I was like, oh shit. Uh-oh. Frown face. Bill does not like him. I'm not saying I'm out. It's not a don't like. No, it's not a don't like. I don't know. The way they were talking about him, what I heard about, oh, this guy, he's fast, right? Like I started getting the Jalen Williams in my head and then I watched it and I didn't feel like he was athletic enough on that, on that level. I don't know. I just didn't totally see it. He felt like a 13 to 17 range guy to me. Okay.

Again, maybe I'm wrong. This is blink test, but this is like a fast riser. He only played in six games, wasn't cleared for contact with his shoulder injury forever. Started in D3, goes to Eastern Washington. The D3 things scared me too. I can't lie. He was filthy in those games that he played this year. But if you want to tell me, hey, it was against Northern Colorado, looked like somebody from

the lacrosse team was out there, no offense to Pat or Anton. But I would say he was filthy and he was like a man and he was like mean to guys. And then he got some kid in the post where he was like, I'm going to fuck with you so bad that I could score in the first second, but I'll just do it on the third move. So you're in on him. Yeah. I like them better than, you know, some of the other guys like, dude, everybody

loves Carter Bryant because he's six, eight, he's really young. He can really shoot it. He can play defense. Everybody really likes the kid. I'd say like highest approval rating of the kid is VJ or Malawatch. Teams have talked about just raving about them, like VJ just off the charts, I guess, in all of his interviews and his background and everything that he went through. And there's a lot of people that really like Carter Bryant of Arizona.

I saw a guy that the good parts in that three and D six, eight, whatever. Okay, fine. Like that guy's a very in demand type of player. The second he had to do something with the basketball after like it was either shoot it or it was an outlet pass on a defensive rebound, it was a nightmare. I really like my watch. I think there's a case for him to go sixth. They, if the whiz took him six, that wouldn't make fun of us.

Sar Malawatch twin towers, double bigs, Adams, Shangoon response. Okay. So in the finals, a couple of years. Well, Twin Towers sent 40 years later, the Samson Lajoine. Does Sar's spacing provide enough for Malawatch to operate those lobs? Who's the say no, right? Here's a positive one. I I'm kind of talking myself into Derek Queen.

I think it depends on the team. Big time. I think there's teams where it could be a disaster, but there's, there's a lot of stuff there and then, uh, what's the dude's name? Uh, Yaka Yaka shown us. How do you say his name? Yeah. I got a good from Illinois.

Yeah. Show us. Yeah. You did great. That guy's an NBA player. I don't know when it might not be until he's 28 and it could be his 13, but there's something there's a, there's a wherewithal he has offensively and how he uses teammates that I just see it.

It translates and there's going to, I know he's going to get hunted like all the usual shit with him, but that dude would be fun to play with and is unique and has like an elite skill. I, as you know, I love elite skills. When I look at this draft stuff, I'm always like, what's, what's, what's your thing? What's your Trump card? What's the thing you have? He would be fun to play with. So it feels like he's dropping a little, right?

Doesn't it feel like he's, people are cooling off on him a tiny bit. What are you talking about? Like outside of the top 10? Well, initially he was supposed to be, you know, top eight or nine. Now it feels like he's in the, uh, I don't know, a little lower. He, uh, he probably could shoot it a little bit better. I mean, I like them better than Demen cause he can shoot it and Demen just couldn't shoot it all year long,

but apparently Demen, the BYU kid, is lighting it up in some workouts with the shooting. So I'm out on him. I do not have an opinion on him. I couldn't crack that one. That one I threw my hands up. I don't know what to make of him. I like Colin Murray-Boyles.

He's probably a little smaller for the way that he plays. And then Derek Queen, I'll admit, I just don't know that I can figure it out. It's all over the place. But sometimes it's really pretty fucking good, man. And then I'm like, okay. I like that, with Sam, the one that said, like he's just been somebody who's played against men

for the last couple years. Yeah. I like that. It's meaningful. I like Sorb or the Georgetown kid, because I think he's a legit center. I haven't researched him yet. Nick Clifford's probably the most like well rounded guy, but he's,

I think he's already 23. Uh, Where do you stand on Fleming from St. Joe's? I don't know what he is. Um, well, physically he's a specimen. Okay. So he's enormous. He's like two 30 he's chiseled and.

You know, playing in some of the games that I was watching, there are times where I'm like, is he a small forward or is he a center? Cause I think he wants to be a small forward and I'm not saying he should be a center. So maybe there's a ton of value in him and his size, you know, stretching the floor for you a little bit, but I think he was so physically gifted. I would have liked to see him make people feel a little bit more. Yeah. But you know, to be fair again, I'm not doing this year round.

I'm not, you know, watching every single game. I was watching Hugo Gonzalez the other night. I was like, I think he might suck, but I like him. I liked, uh, he has shot it like he said five different stints in Europe and he hasn't shot over I think 27% for three and he's not a point guard. So I'm like, okay, how does this work? But I got to tell you, fun kid, fun little guy out there.

Well, he's not quality 6'6". Shocker of shocker, I like Clayton Jr. It's the most predictable bill opinion of all time, but I just don't see how he's not an NBA player. And I don't see how he's not an NBA player. And I don't know how many more times we have to do this with these guys. Brunson was one from way back, but what did he go like 31, 32? It's like at some point, at some point it should matter what we saw. There's other times where it shouldn't matter at all, but you can, you can kind of, you

have to filter it and he's clearly somebody who could play in NBA games and create his own shot and do stuff. Yeah, and the shot making like, yeah, again, Trey's the best of the class, but there's some Walter Clayton shots where you just go, like, I can't even believe he has the balls to even take this. And then it felt like it went in more often.

Hanson Yang, I'm going to give myself the combine. There is value in the combine. Um, didn't speak a lick of English when he was at the combine. And so he would just kind of do this like yell when he wanted the ball. Like, ah, ah, and then he had this baseline spin with the ball and won, flushes it. I was right there on the baseline when it happened. And I tweeted out that I've seen the, I think it was on threads. I'm on threads a lot lately.

I was like, I've seen the future of the NBA and it's right in front of me. Hanson Yang got a couple of chuckles. The threads audience really liked it. Yeah. And the peanut gallery, you know, at the combine and now, uh, people think he might go in the thirties. So if your team takes Hanson Yang in the thirties, you may have something, a bit of a project, but you may have something.

I, uh, I don't mind the Stanford senior cause I scouted him because there was some self-exposed with him. So of course I had to watch all his stuff. He was awesome at the combine. He seems intriguing. Awesome. Hasn't really been playing basketball that long, which I think sometimes is a bonus. Room to grow.

Yeah. All right. There's our draft thing. I know you're going to be tackling a lot, um, this week. Hopefully we'll have one fun trade and that's it. I've run out of things to talk about unless you want to talk about, uh, w w what do you do with Connor McDavid? No, I just want to say one last thing about the Thunder. Yeah, this is a team that

finished the playoffs 11th and rebounding rate 12th and defensive rebounding rate their assist percentage was 11th their three-point percentage may have dipped down It was 13th out of 16 playoff teams. Might've been worse after today. Might. They had like a couple of points they had to make up there. So 13 as of today, they fouled at the third highest rate. They had, I think nine games under 30% from three, maybe under 31% from three.

So nine bad shooting games in the playoffs. They went five and four of those for this team to win an NBA championship with the lack of shooting and the rebounding being an issue and fouling all the time speaks to how insane this defense was. And we saw it in the third quarter and you can see it like a switch when that group gets connected and says, you know, granted TJ went crazy, but all the turnovers they were committing because of the pressure, I think was a 19 to 2 run, as great as SGA has been at the peak moments and the MVP and deserving all that kind of stuff.

For a unit to have six, seven guys, it's like, we just got to be dogs defensively. And for that team to win a championship. I know how disappointed everybody is that it wasn't the full version, obviously with the Halliburton injury, but that's some pretty special stuff to be able to win 16 games with some of their deficiencies that they have. Yeah. I mean, game four will be the thing I remember about that team watching them just basically refuse to let the Pacers start their offense within 30 feet

of the basket for an hour. I've seen good defense before, but I don't know. It was also a team that if you were calling the game and letting them kind of get away with stuff, they became completely unstoppable. Right. It was like an NFL defense where you're like, Oh, you're going to let us do this. And then they would just, and I felt like that was happening a little bit tonight. Once Caruso and Dorton Wallace could really get physical 40, 50 feet from the

basket, yikes. Um, what happens with McDavid? It's going to get worse, not better. This was, it feels like their best chance with the cap. Yep. And here's the thing. Last year they were a better team where this year people couldn't believe they beat Dallas and Las Vegas where last year they weren't even favored in round one.

I think the Kings were favored. Kings came out smoking too, right? So, uh, you know, they get to return trip, but I watched all the games. You know, I don't know that I have a ton of great insight on all of it, but this is, this will bother me. This will bother me in a way. I don't want to be at Charles Barkley level. Won't be a Chris Mullin level, but it's going to bother me. Like how will the rest of your life be if McDavid never hoist the cup? You'd be okay. I feel like he's, I've been watching hockey since when Bobby worse still was good.

Um, and he's one of the six or seven just easily best players I've ever seen. And I can't believe he hasn't won a cup yet. Um, I was thinking about something with, with Marsha and the Panthers, how he goes to that team and it's the perfect team for him. Cause they just have a bunch of fucking assholes that are just agitator assholes. And it was like, finally I'm with my people. And it made me think like, I wish the Bruins in retrospect had just been like, you know, we have this guy, he's just so fucking annoying.

He drives everybody crazy. We should just get like four more of those guys and just we become, that becomes our identity. Cause I do feel like, like Evander Cain was so mad that by the end of the series, the game's over. There's two minutes left and he just went over and he slashed Kachuk as hard as he could so he could get a game misconduct

and not have to be in the handshake line. Like that's, you know that you have a team full of dicks hard as it could so he could get a game misconduct and not have to be in the handshake line. You know that you have a team full of dicks when somebody's like, I just, I can't shake hands with these guys. Can you kick me out of the game? So it just made me think like that would be an interesting way, almost like how Presti put together that OKC team of these fucking silent assassins who just get worked on and have no ego and they all did the press conference together. Could you have done that with Marcian? Just like, let's go get five assholes, and that'll be the nucleus of our team. I don't know the answer to this because again,

I don't know the sport super well, but it feels like, and we've touched on this a bit in the last few years, I feel like the NBA playoffs is very different than the regular season for a bunch of obvious reasons, but like some of the shooting variants, I wonder, like, could you trick yourself into thinking that you're this really good offense? But then all of a sudden it's like, yeah, but those guys just aren't going to be as comfortable. And I mean, again, okay, see a lot of these threes were wide open and these guys didn't make them and it still didn't matter.

They didn't make them enough. Um, even lot of these threes were wide open and these guys didn't make them and it still didn't matter. They didn't make them enough. Even wide open corner threes. Yeah, and then you could see like, I mean, not to recap game seven again, but Jalen Williams had one where he passed up an open one to throw it to Dork. And I'm like, dude, what? Like you had 40 the other night.

Yeah. Like, what is that? And he responded and he closed well. But do hockey GMs have to think about like, I need a completely like different team that survives advancing through the chaos of the NHL playoffs. Like, hey, we may not be the best offense, we may not be all of these things, but at least we have like the right personalities. And maybe I'm just telling hockey people what they've already known and this isn't a secret. I think they must think about it.

Yeah, but it's the biggest gap. Like football is pretty straightforward. Baseball is a total coin toss. Like you can talk about how valuable pitching was. I remember like all I would do is look at the pitching matchups for every single playoff series and then all these times it didn't really matter. The Braves would have had more World Series, right? It's just, baseball is just so fucking weird in the playoffs.

But hockey feels like a real departure of like, we can have this really good team, but we need these kinds of personalities that may not show up or may not be as valuable in the regular season. Because obviously Florida checked all those boxes over the last two years. Well, and the goal, you have to have the goal. It starts with

that, which is that was Edmonton's biggest failure in the last couple of years. But I didn't think it was really a skinner. I didn't think it was a skinner. Like I didn't look at this finals go, oh well, you know, once again it's skinner's fault. And then obviously I know. I know. But it was that, I mean, when you're changing, yeah, you're swapping dudes in and out. It's usually not an awesome sign. Yeah, but I could name like 10 plus guys from the Panthers that I'd be like, oh, that guy did this

and this guy had this game. Then Reiner, of course, closes it out. Rodriguez, like all these other dudes that aren't Sam Bennett. They're really good. Right? Can't stand them. There's so many dudes that you could name.

There are so many times, you mentioned the Evander Kane thing. I almost made it to bias Harris show, but he's on the Oilers. There's just a lot of dudes that we know the names because we've watched the playoffs with them these last two deep runs. But to just the very casual drive-by fan that I am,

there's a lot of guys that were on the Oilers. I can't remember that guy ever having a moment that I am. There's a lot of guys that were on the oilers right. I can't remember like that guy ever having a moment that stood out. The Canada not winning a Stanley cup since 93 is one of the craziest streaks in sports. It really is. It's just nuts. 32 years. And the last time they won, they beat Gretzky and the Kings, which was like, you know, one of the most important finals, at least in America in the last four years. It's like Sam Malone not getting laid for a year. That was a, I think that was an episode.

You know, do you know Voodoo? It's like it turned into Fandango. It's like a streaming movie TV service. I thought you meant the art arts. No, you can rent and buy movies on it. Sometimes they have these sales. They had the entire cheer series streaming for 29.99. I was like, fine.

That'll come in handy on an airplane. Why not? Switch out the blue race. It's just like, who knows? It's how many seasons was it? It's like 11 seasons. It's like over 200 episodes. Fine, 30 bucks.

Twist my arm, I'll do it. We almost called you for the Die Hard with a Vengeance rewatchables on Friday, but I knew you were at Elite 11. Yeah, went down to Elite 11. I had a busy day. What was it? Why was I so busy that day?

Oh, Elite 11. You love Elite 11. I do. We have to go. We're over the two hour mark. I feel bad for Ga-Hao and Eduardo. Thank you for producing the pod for us, guys. Thanks to Zach Lowe for stopping by.

Another season of the books for us. Thanks to everybody on YouTube who watched us. And you're going to be doing a bunch of stuff this week. We love the draft. Hopefully we'll get some more trades. Rosilla. Good to see you.

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