The Bill Simmons Podcast - OKC’s Better, Jokic Isn’t Real, a Clippers Swoon, and Detroit’s Rise With Tim Legler, Plus Week 11 Picks With Joe House and Billy Gil

Episode Date: November 14, 2025

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Tim Legler to react to SGA and the OKC Thunder dismantling the Lakers (2:18). Then, they talk about Nikola Jokic’s resurgence, the struggling Clippers, and the most surprising teams this NBA season (32:42). Finally, Joe House and Billy Gil join to discuss NFL trends before making their Ringer 107 picks (01:22:49). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Tim Legler, Joe House, and Billy Gil Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo This episode is sponsored by State Farm®. Don’t settle for just any insurance when there’s State Farm. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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so your business can stay unfazed. Learn more at SAP.com. uncertainty. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to by the Ringer podcast network. I have a new rewatchable is coming for you on Monday. We went back to the 80s. It's the 40th anniversary of a very important teen movie. It's called Weird Science. It's written and directed by John Hughes. It is a cable classic. Kyle Brandt has been demanding it for for years. So we've finally pulled it off. It's quite a movie. It's one of those movies that could come out in 2025. and maybe it would just be AI and a lot of the plot would be the same.

So weird science coming on Monday. You have the weekend to watch it. Coming up on this podcast, Tim Legler is going to join us at the top. We're going to talk about Oklahoma City and Denver and whether they're starting to separate themselves from the rest of the league. We're going to do a whole bunch of basketball stuff. He's been announcing some games for ESPN and he has been courtside for some really good stuff. That's the top of the pod.

And then Joe House and I are going to do Ringer 107 picks for Week 11. We're joined by Billy Gill, who just joined the first. ringer a couple weeks ago and we're going to spruce up the marriage with him and try to make some football picks. So as you can tell, I'm taping this before the Patriots Jets game. And this was the temp intro that we made just in case the Patriots rolled over the Jets like we thought they would. And then I wouldn't have to come back out here at 830 and give five bullet points about oh my God, I can't believe blank. Let's just hope the Patriots won by 20 by the time you listen to this. As for the rest of the podcast, we're going to take a break, Pearl Jam, and then Tim

like this episode of the bill simmons podcast is presented by state farm having insurance isn't the same as having state farm it's like needing the protection offensive guard on the football field but getting an elementary school crossing guard sure they're both guards but you can only trust one to keep your quarterback safe when the game is on the line so don't settle for just any insurance when you can have state farm like a good neighbor state farm is there All right, we're taking this late Thursday afternoon. Tim Legler is here. He has been announcing basketball games for ESPN and bouncing around on different shows.

but this is really his true passion talking to me about Niccoli Yokic and OKC. I'm going to start here. You did the OKC game last night. Yeah. I went to Clippers Nuggets and saw just a legendary Yokage game. And I was driving home. I saw the Lakers score. And I was just like, this feels like a two-man race right now.

I know we're 11 games in, but those two teams are so much better than everybody else I'm watching. Does it feel that way to you? It's like two versus 28? Yeah, clearly. I mean, I already kind of thought that, and then it was really pounded home last night watching OKC waiting on the Lakers. And, you know, the OKC played the night before against the Warriors, that game got out of hand by halftime. So the OKC guys only nobody had to play more than half a game to beat Golden State. And then so we're sitting there. We're in town on Tuesday night. We're actually out at dinner. Myself, Mike, Brian, Richard Jefferson, were having dinner. And like at the same restaurant, the entire Laker. coaching staff was there and we know all those guys so we were like talking to them a little bit and i could tell like they were they were excited about the fact that you know they were in town they're they had just beaten charlotte on monday and i think with luka rolling the way he has been reeves playing the way he was i believe it just felt like they were looking forward to this

challenge and let's see where we are really by playing against this elite defense and i tell you what, man. When you watch Oklahoma City play with that kind of adrenaline, when they're up on their toes to the extent they were at the start of this game, there's nothing like it in the league defensively. There just isn't anything like it. And they can so dispirate you that it really starts to affect you on the other end of the floor, which is what I thought happened to the Lakers, because they had nothing going at all offensively, really from about mid-first quarter on. and now on the other end of the floor they just became just really passive

and they were the lacking concentration and Oklahoma City got whatever they wanted on the other end of the floor but it started with what they did to them defensively and when you see that up close when you're sitting there and you're taking it all in how deep they are defensively everybody is accountable to each other

and Jaylon Williams isn't even playing in the game Aaron Wiggins isn't even playing and they're doing that to the Lakers with those two guys coming in that hot, they completely dismantled them. And so, yes, Bill, to answer your question, for me, it's OKC, I think they deserve the respect to say

they're on a different shelf than everybody else. The question is, who can close the gap with them the most? That's really what we're talking about. And right now, Denver has separated themselves from everybody else. So you have OKC, then Denver, than everybody else.

Yes, yes. Okay. I do. I, you know, I just, I'm looking at this. Look, think about this. They won a championship and they would be sitting here at, what, 13 and 0, 12 and however many games they played. They blow a 20-point lead to Portland on the road.

And they were up with five minutes to go. I watch that game. They should have won it. Yeah. If they win that game, they're undefeated. And they're missing their second best player. it's incredible really what they've been able to do

I said to some fans I was leaving the arena last night and of course Oklahoma City fans are the best they're just the nicest people in the world and they win a lot so they feel good but still they're just nice people and they're just like hey man you know what do you think of our team

and I said you know what I think what I just watched is when the best team in the league plays their best and their hardest that's kind of what it looks like that's what happens to people You're incapable of getting anything easy offensively And eventually that's just going to wear you down

That's what they did to the Lakers last night Shea had a really good quote a couple days ago About he even though they won the title He didn't feel like they played their best And he was kind of frustrated Because he felt like they left some stuff on the table And they didn't get to where he thought they should be mentally And he's been approaching this season

As we can still go up a level I think you if you go back and read the great championship teams. And I was like, one of the teams I always like to look at is the 92 Bulls, because they win in 91, but they're like that young up-and-coming contender. They finally get over the hump against Detroit. Then they have that Lakers series. They're not favored in the Lakers series.

And they kind of, as the series goes along, they really figure it out. And by the end of the series, you know they're the best team. But then they rolled that over to the next year. And they just killed everybody in 92. Like they, that was probably their best regular season team until the last three Jordan teams. I thought that might happen with OKC. Without Jalen Williams, though, that's the part that I don't want to say confused by,

but pleasantly surprised by because this AJ Mitchell being able to come in and just be this immediate like 16, 17 points a game, steady offense, it's not like he's a three-point shooter. He's like a crafty guy. He can kind of do a Shay impersonation a little bit if they need, like if Shay missed is a game. He could probably get in and get 25, but they're, they're so freaking deep that when Jaylon Williams comes back, I don't even know who loses minutes. I guess they can just kind of mix and match and be like, here, we'll just play these nine guys today, but it's about

as deep of a team as I think we've ever seen. Well, and I want to tell you this, so, about A.J. Mitchell. And they knew he could play last year. He, you know, he was given at different times. he'd get some minutes and get an opportunity, get some run. Some dabbles. A little bit, just enough to see him. They knew he could play and you could tell by talking to Mark Dagnall as much as we saw him last year. I felt like it was like a second home.

I was in their building so much last year. Yeah. And you got the impression they kind of knew, but I'm telling you, even by what they thought they knew, A.J. Mitchell has surpassed that. A.J. Mitchell is a big time guard. He really is. He goes seven for 11. every game. And it's like, it's like I'm watching this guy and I'm going, first of all, I didn't, I knew that he had could do some of the things off the dribble and it's like mid range and finishing at the rim. It was like pretty good. I did not know he could shoot the ball this effectively from deep. So, so there's no real set game plan on him now defensively when he runs ball screen because I thought it would be like go under. Let's see what he's capable of making. The guy's making everything from the perimeter. He's got a burst like to accelerate past you. He's got incredibly.

incredibly strong base, and I was watching him last night just how balanced he is at all times. He's incredibly strong. His trunk is so strong. So when guys are trying to put forearms into him and get him off his spot, he plows right through it like it's nothing. You're sitting there with Jalen Williams. By the way, I forgot to mention the first team all league NBA defender didn't even play last night in Lou Dort.

And then you've got Lut, you've got Jalen Williams not playing, right? So what do you have? Well, you got Kays and Wallace, one of the best on ball up the floor perimeter defenders in the NBA. You've got Alex Caruso, who's the number one rated individual defensive player in the league. And by the way, A.J. Mitchell is the second highest rated individual defensive player in the NBA. It's unbelievable. Guys make 30% of the shots against him that he contests. So I was talking to Dagnold about this before the game.

And he was saying, what a luxury he has, that he never has to look out on the floor and say to himself, do I have enough offense, do I have enough defense? He just plays his guys and both ends are covered because they don't have any weak links. They don't have any. All of those guys compete. They all get after it, a ton of want to, and then the physical attributes that you need, like the speed, the strength. And, of course, he's got a brilliant game plan.

But the way that they flood to the lane on penetration. And I'm watching the Lakers saying, Lakers, in the league and points in the paint, they have to score in the paint, or at least touch the paint with Reeves or Donchitz. That's the way their team is built. They're a low-volume three-point shooting team. They don't take a lot. They don't make a lot.

And guess what? Against OKC, you're not scoring in there. There's a 16-point discrepancy going into the game between what the Lakers get every night in the paint and what OKC gives up every night in the paint. Something's going to give, and most nights against OKC, it's the other team that gives, and it was again last night. The Lakers had like, they had like 20 points in the paint at almost the end of the third quarter.

They averaged 53. So that's what OKC did to them last night. And now you got this other guy, Mitchell, that's now starting with Jalen Williams out, that's turned into this incredible two-way player. And it's just, it's absurd. Like the number of guys that they can throw at you that can produce on both ends. Yeah, the, the Lakers, I. I think the really athletic teams

are going to be a real problem for them because I thought if the Atlanta game, even though Atlanta is a completely different team than OKC, it's a little bit similar. I think if you're going to really ratchet up the athlete against the Lakers, I think they're going to have some issues. I've got to say this one thing about Mitchell,

and I don't say this lightly. I'm not a crazy hyperbole person. The way he's playing reminds me a little of when Brunson was on Dallas. And you would, before we really, you know, way before he became Nick's Brunson, Way before that one series when Luca was out

and all of a sudden he was carrying them. But Brunson had this stretch on those Dallas teams where you would watch him be like, is this guy really good or am I crazy, right? Could this guy be the lead guard on a really good team or am I crazy? And you just watch him and he was so comfortable and he was like this finished product

and he was kind of this luxury on the side for the Mavs. And I just wonder, like with Mitchell, I'm sure these other GMs are looking at this Thunder team gone. There's no way they're going to keep all these guys. guys. They're going to be able to pay Casem Wallace $30 million a year. They're not going to be able to pay Mitchell in a couple of years. So I'm sure like all these other teams must be scavengers. Like could we build an offense around A.J. Mitchell. It seems absurd. But who knows? The Brunson thing seemed absurd. You're right. And we were actually having that conversation just amongst us last

night. Like after we did all the pregame interviews and everything, we were kind of just sitting around looking at the roster and saying that exact thing. Like right now, AJ Mitchell's going off. He's been incredible. But you've got Jaylon Williams sitting over there. York didn't play last night. Aaron Wiggins is a really important player. That's three guards. I just mentioned three guards. And by the way, every night, he's got to find 20 to 24 minutes for Caruso.

You just have to. His plus minus is incredible. And he's just a winning player. And he made some plays last night that kind of really defied logic defensively, the amount of ground he covers and the challenges he takes on. And, of course, then you've got Shea there as well. And Isaiah Joe is a guy that shoots 40% from the three and guards. He was playing really well this year.

He's playing great, too. So I just mentioned six guys, all of whom, and this is almost really unheard of, all of whom can make a legitimate argument they need to be playing at least half the game. And obviously in a case of your star, he's playing 35, 36, Jalen Williams will do the same. So those other four guys, they all have a right to lay claim to those minutes, but you can't do it. So how do you think it's going to play out down the road? at some point, I think the A.J. Mitchell find one of two things is going to happen. He's either going to get so good and do this all year, including through a two-month playoff run and, like, have big moments in the finals, where he starts to go, you know what, man, I kind of think I'm good enough to be like, have my own team.

Right. Not necessarily as like, you know, a superstar, although who knows. but I'm just saying like my team starter 35 minutes give me the ball I'm running the show not playing off of these other two great players that are in front of him or they're going to decide you know what we have to lock this guy up and it's going to obviously affect a guy like case and Wallace affect a guy like Wiggins it's going to trickle down to those guys and look teams that win titles bill you know this very difficult to keep those fringe rotational players like intact so those guys typically find greener pastures because they get more money to go somewhere else because they're champions and they're good players. Right. A.J. Mitchell, in the apron era.

Oh, yeah. You're not keeping all these guys anymore. Can't do it. AJ Mitchell is too exciting of a prospect to think about them making the decision that they would go in a different direction and move him or something. It's not going to happen that way. It'll be because he comes to determination in his camp at his corner that like, you know what? I'm actually better than being a guy that's like in the rotational mix of guards on a

great team. Maybe I'm good enough to be a 20 point score, 35 minute guy on my own really good team. And we'll see how that's going to play out over time. Because this is all just happening so quickly for all of us watching this. Right. It's like now it's expected. I expect this guy every night to go off. And I'm glad you feel that way because I didn't know if I was overreacting watching it. Because it's not like the Celtics played the Sixers the other night. And Edwards came just got red hot on the Sixers, right? And if you just watch one game, you'd be like, wow, that guy's amazing.

He's not going to do that every night. Right. Mitchell's steady. Mitchell always gets the same types of shots and plays with a certain pace and is always in control what he wants to do. And I just, I got to be honest, like, I just can't believe they stumbled into this.

It's incredible. Watching them in the first four weeks is like, where this guy was on their team last year? I didn't even notice him. And you know, one other thing about him that really suits him well here, the situation for any young guard trying to find their way in the league, like when they first get their legit run, they are so often playing with numbers and playing in the open floor because of what they do to turn you over. So like the decision making for him is so simplified. And a lot of the damage he does is an initial push up the floor. or if he sometimes a couple times last night

that initial search took place the Lakers were able to at least fend that off and now here he comes into like the trail over the half court ball gets swung to him and he is so quick and explosive to put it down on the floor and just attack you and he's right back in the lane or catching two to three did one of those on a trail three last night

so like their space that they have offensively for so many possessions in the game it helps young players find their confidence and rhythm, rather than have to like kind of slug it out in a half court setting all the time where maybe some of your weaknesses can be exposed. Right now, like they always have numbers and that really helps him. It's when you think about, so they won 68 last year, they're over underheading into the season, which was one of my locks, was 63. Yeah. And the regular season record, Fando has them 13 to 1 to break the regular season record. And three to one and win

70. I think the case for them to win 70 on top of the fact that it's only two more than they won last year is they could lose any guy in their lineup, but I think they'd be fine for a couple weeks, right? Even like Shea, who is a historically great guard having another awesome year, I feel like if he was gone for three weeks, they'd be able to patch it together with a lot of offense and with their defense probably be okay, whereas like if Denver lost Yokage, now we're having a different conversation. The defensive stats with them, I know, it's early. These are all small sample-sized stuff. But they're per 100 possessions, 103.4 is the rating. And the next team is 109.4, Denver, to be six points lower than everybody else defensively.

Like, that's like a whole other level. And as you said, they really should be undefeated. So, yeah, they are still the favorites. They're the betting favorites. I don't really see scenarios where they're not going to be hosting the Western Finals. And what's crazy is they have the Quippers pick, the team I saw last night that I think is three and eight or three and nine in a generational draft with at least three franchise guys and then three other guys that everybody thinks that another year would have been number on pick. And they're just sitting there with this pick and they might have struggled yet again.

Yeah. And, you know, so I guess it was to the game was last night. Tonight, apparently, I guess Sam Presti was being honored going into the Oklahoma Hall of honor. And I made a joke on the air last night. I said, man, you got to win a championship to get in? Like, I would have thought that guy would have already been in there. Like, they really holding a high standard in the Oklahoma

Hall of Honor. The client trade shouldn't have been in there after that. That's what I'm saying. But so, we were just talking about him a little bit on the air and just like he, and he, you know, some guys say things as people that run teams and make personal decisions. And, and it sounds cliche. When he

says, like, they made a commitment to draft character. Yeah. And, and draft people and obviously you're not that doesn't mean you're going to you know forego talent but you won't both it really is incredible how much it's reminding me of what happened in san antonio because you had you had three guys elite talents but more importantly great teammates workers selfless didn't care about the limelight not an ounce of diva in them extremely coachable wanted to be coached in fact allowed their head coach to get into them when they needed it and now you look at this situation with with uh shay and jalen williams and chet hungerman they got

their three and they're all great dudes they legitimately buy into each other they buy into accountability for one another so it really is it's gross stop praising them it's made i'm gonna throw up i'm sorry with this for 10 more years i know and people it's so funny too because people people, like, they want to just attack you on social media if you're, like, praising a team. And I'm just like, what do you want me to say, man? Like, like, they are, like, first of all, also I want to say this. Like, as a, as I, as I, as I, as I, as I, as I'm a fan of a game of basketball. They, the way they play, I'm a fan of the style.

I'm a fan of the way that they play the game. It's fun for me to sit down and watch them. And then, you know, they just happen to do it at such a high level that, and I agree with you, by the way, like, as far as, miss. guys are guys, they're already proving that right now with who they're missing. They can have guys go down. No biggie, man, because their defense will carry the day every night. We were joking at halftime, this game got out of control.

We're going, okay, at what point do these two teams like empty their benches? And I'm like, I don't know, man, not too early for the Lakers because the OKC guys that you put out there on that second five play every bit as hard. Like, they're going to get into you defensively that this. thing could go from 25 to 45-50 if you don't keep some guys on the floor that can handle the ball for the Lakers. Wow, when was the last time we said that? Yeah.

Crazy. It's, you know, I think for though, it's one thing to win a title, right? I think anybody can win a title once if you have good players. You have some luck. You have some healthy. You've won great star. I feel like they've actually changed the league a little bit. And Indiana gets a little bit of credit for this, too, with how hard they play, picking up full

court, some of the stuff they're doing defensively that's just different. And I think, again, Indiana was the other team that was really trying to pick up 94 feet. The last time you're on, we were talking about just some of the trends that we're seeing early and how some teams are just trying to pick up the pace and just, but it all stems from them and they do it by far the best. And they can affect whatever they want. They're like, you know what, the pace of this is too slow. Let's ratchet it up. And they can just do it, right? And then on top of it, They have this generational guard who feels like he's getting better and his stats are the same.

I don't even really understand it. It just feels like he's 3% more comfortable every two months as a score. I feel like at the end of the game, he's going to get any shot he wants. Yeah. And, you know, you came in the – what year did you come in the league? 90. What year did you leave? 2000.

All right. So you went prime Jordan. early Kobe, but Kobe wasn't Kobe yet. But then you were in media. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, to me, Shea is on that level, right? I was in like 10 years and Jordan won six championship.

So I'm like, that's great. Thanks, man. You know, thanks for that. Thanks for that, MJ. Thanks, you'll get a chance, yeah. But I think Shea, when you start putting together year after year of this, you have to enter that conversation now. And I'm not saying he's better than those guys,

but I'm just saying if you're making a list of the best, the best guards of the last however many years. I just think he has to be on there now. His, he has developed, most of all, first of all, to your point, what he's doing right now is so casual and easy. Yeah, that's the thing.

It's so easy. What he's doing right now. You know, he had a 30-10 game last night, 30 and 10, basically through three quarters. And it was so easy and casual because he has, he has the ability, to get his favorite shot whenever he wants it pretty much.

It's very rare that someone can stop that step back midi or, you know, he's making the step back three now too, but it's really that shot from 12 to 20 feet. That's the shot that he gets and primarily going left, and he gets it whenever he wants because he uses your own leverage and determination to stop his penetration against you. And he stops so quickly and so abruptly that it's almost impossible to time that up. Every now and then I'll see a guy do it really well. Or sometimes he'll go to the step back and a guy has timed it so well and anticipated it with length. You've got to have length that their arm is up.

And now he'll stop and he's maybe trying to get the bump, doesn't get that, where he has to swing it and then go get it back. But I'm telling you, that happens like only a couple times a game. When he wants it, he gets it, even against the elite guys. And so now he's in this place where you have to sell out to stop him. And that is when now they start raining some threes on you because they're not a really super high volume three-point shooting team either. But when they start stringing threes together, that is when they look to me. like there's no team in this league

that can beat these guys four times in a seven game series when they're making threes. So that's a decision you have to make as a coach. Sell out to him a little bit more, force the ball out of his hands. And then these guys are so smart playing four on three that they will find the open guy.

They've got slashers. They got lob threats with their bigs. They've got guys that can shoot wing and corner threes. They make the right decision. They'll turn it over. Someone takes a shot. Now, if you get them on an off shooting night

and you took it out of Shay's hands, you got a chance, but it's rare that anybody's able to pull all of that off. You've got to have the scheme and the personnel and the want to. That's a lot to ask against a guy as good as Shea Gildesis Alexander. The footwork, you know, like if you go back and you watch like the old Bobby Orr tapes from 50 years ago and just watch him skate and he's just skating differently than everybody else, he's just faster and more coordinated. And it's like, wow, that guy's just different.

And then Connor McDavid down is the same thing. There's all these fast dudes in the NHL and just something about how he moves is just different. And we've seen usually we talk about big guys with footwork, right? It's like McAil and Hakeem and Tim Duncan and I think with Shay,

I don't want to do the thing where it's like, we don't give Shay credit enough. I'm not saying that. It's just you don't think of the footwork when you think about him because of all the other stuff he's doing. But what you said before about how he just stops, that's like his cheat code.

His ability to just completely stop his body and then go in a different direction as he's using somebody's leverage against him. I don't know how he stop it. I don't really know what the answer is. You have to guess. And what I do see when guys try to guess is, and they're not fully committed to retreat mode

and they're more upright because they're trying to time that up, that's when he ends up blowing right by you and he's at the rim or he's throwing a pocket pass or a lob to home, or Isaiah Hardinstein, or if that big, you know, you play it perfectly on the, underneath the basket on the second line, perfectly. Big comes over to help so he can't get to the rim. Opposite wing defender drops down and chips on the big, so there's no loft that, well, then

he throws the pass now over to the right wing, which is the open area of the floor if he drives down the left side of the lane, or he'll throw it back to the left corner. Like he'll make that play, I call it the late find. He makes the late fine now really, really well when his option is exhausted for himself. But more often than not, he's at the rim with something soft up on the glass. And if you are in full commitment

to try to get back and cut him off because you're so worried about the blow by, that's when he stops. And then he basically sidesteps or backsteps. It's about, by my guess, six to seven feet. So, and he's six, six. It's not like he's 5-11 doing this where you can maybe have a chance to get back.

He's 6-6 as it is. So that, but the quickness with which that right foot hits the ground and then he is off the ground after he has stepped back, that amount of time is just so tight to pull all of that off perfectly.

It requires like a special effort on that possession. And then guess what, by the way, if you do that, I got news for you. The next time down the floor he's going to do it again and you won't be as good at that. It's stopping it. So because he's just going to keep coming at you.

On TV, it doesn't do it justice. I hate to do the, you got to see it in person thing. But it's one of those things you've seen in person. Just like, I don't understand how anyone would stop that. Now, I guess you would probably use somebody taller, maybe three, four inches or like a six, nine guy with longer arms. Maybe. But how many guys, how many guys are there like that? Tatum did an okay job against him.

You just, you basically just described. like, you know, well, if we could just put Scottie Pippin on him, like, you know, we would have a chance, like, because as you're talking about, 6-8, 6-9, and Scottie might even have been longer than that, with incredible reach, and then just a whole lot of, like, defensive instincts to want to time it up and play a guy like that. He wears you down, man. Their whole team wears you down. And by the way, I want to say, obviously last night, you know, Lakers came in pretty, feeling

pretty good, hot, offensively clicking. and they didn't have LeBron James. Let's just be very clear about that. You still have LeBron James sitting over there, which is going to affect the force with which you can play against OKC. It's going to affect your points in the paint that you need, your paint touches that you need to make your offense go, all of that stuff.

So this isn't the best version of the Lakers, but it was a team coming in that was somewhat rolling offensively with two, with, you know, a superstar off to one of the best scoring starts in the history of this league in Luca and then another guy who's turned himself into a star player in his own right in Austin Reeves. And neither guy had any success

going where they wanted to on the floor last night. Plus it was a happy week for them because we finally have a verdict. It seems like they might have won the Luca Doncha trade. I think it's finally we can finally come up with the winner. It took nine months.

I didn't need nine months. You know, nine months. I didn't need to deliberate for nine months. If I was on that jury, if I was on that jury, okay? I'm literally handing in the verdict, like, within minutes after I heard the news. I think if I was a Dallas fan, I'd be more mad that we didn't get Reeves in the trade than about the actual trade. I'd be like, it's one thing how stupid it was to trade them, but I just, why didn't we get Reeves?

I would just, I would go to bed at night. That would be like one of the three final things I thought about before I fell asleep. Um, we get to take a break and then I want to come back because we didn't talk about yokech yet. We just did like 25 minutes on, okay, see, take one break here. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to by a Fandul. Fandall's putting you in control right from tip off. That's right. You get to choose your reward.

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chat in Connecticut. All right, coming back, somehow this isn't the number one story we're talking about. I went to a Quipper's Nuggets game last night. I don't know what was going on with Yokic, because you could see it from the beginning. I don't know whether he was mad about the playoff series from last year. If Zubach tected him something joking that he took personally, if he heard something in the second row that made him mad. But he was in playoff mode.

And pretty early in the game, it became clear the quipper. had this strategy of I call it the 2005 Spurs against Steve Nash strategy of like, you love to pass so we're going to take your passes away and you're going to have to score to beat us and Yokinj was like,

this is really what you guys are doing and just torch them. 25 in the first quarter. He had 52 after 3 and it was every kind of shot. And I was trying to think what's different about him this year. Just from what I saw just being at the game,

it feels like he's making the decision to score like an infantile infinitesimal split second faster versus like I have the ball I'm going to think about

and now I'm going to make my move this time he's just like I'm scoring he has all these different shots he's in great shape and he was just unbelievable and the crowd was like gasping when he got into the 40s

and he started you know in the crowd when the crowd starts making that noise like like we can't stop oh no oh my god what do we do it was just a lot of gasping and he just murdered them and they really needed the game what's different about him he's shooting 68% he's on pace to be our first 6040 80 guy he leads the league in NBA in rebounds and assists he's six and points he's taking three shots less a game and he's still averaging a 29 13 and 11

And he has a 21 net rating plus. So in other words, typical Yoko Jir, but slightly better. But are you seeing anything that's different? Yeah, for sure. So what is it? Here's what it is. He absolutely 100% is fresher. And their acquisition of Valenciunis is one of the real underrated signings in this league.

Because when he would go out of the game before, think about the backup centers that he's played with since he's been there, right? over the last five, six years. So when he would go to the bench, like they felt so inadequate offensively and everything they were going to do. It just ends a presence and on the glass that he rarely would sit

as long as he's sitting now with his second sub in the second half. So basically from the start of the fourth quarter, he would usually get about three minutes and he was back in the game because he had to be back in the game because now the game's on the line. Like you got nine minutes to go win,

this game. And you only have so many of those nights that you're going to be able to be in that position to go win the game right now to one possession game. Now, this is two games in a row. He just watched every second of their last two games. He sat the first six plus minutes of the fourth quarter. And it's also in the first half. His minutes are down to 33 minutes a game. They've got more depth. They've got more spacing around him. He feels better. I think he's invigorated by the fact that they're back in the mix. Even though they took Oklahoma City to seven games a year ago, I don't think anybody

really viewed Denver all year as a contender to actually win the title. I know they gave them a hell of a series. This team, with what they did in the off season, this feels like you know what? It wasn't just a one championship run with the Denver Nuggets,

which a lot of people thought was going to be more than that when they first won their title. I did. I thought that's not a one championship group, but then you started to think after last year, like maybe it was. They completely hit the reset button with their depth. Their bench was not good enough last year. It is now.

It takes a lot of pressure off his shoulders. As a result, he's fresher. I agree with you because he's fresher. He's processing his own scoring opportunities in an aggressive manner that's quicker and more decisive than when he's a little bit fatigued and he immediately goes into looking around in that dribble handoff game. When he's feeling like he is now and you're going to play. him a certain way, he's going to go eat.

And that's basically what he did last night. First of all, there's no way I'm playing Yokic straight up as much as they did last night. It was crazy. I mean, he just, oh, here we go. It looked like a guy in the driveway with his kid. They gave Zubatch a little too much credit, I think, because he had some good moments against him last year. So, like, well, we could try this because of Zoo.

And he just, he annihilated Zoo, and then he was even meaner to Lopez. Yeah, and look, and you're talking about two guys. Like Zubach, I believe, but he was on one of the all defensive teams last year. He was. He was great last year. Maybe like third team, all defense or something. Lopez has been on the all defensive team in this league. Now, he's older now, and he's more of a rim protector than he is, like, guard guys one-on-one. I think he retired after last night.

I didn't see the official announcement. And somebody made a good point on it saw on social media. They're like, they watched every shot he made and they're trying to see, like, at any point did he hit the rim? Like, no. The display of touch. Right in the middle of it. It's unbelievable. And look, last night he was, he missed three of his first four shots and then he just

went 17 for 19 somebody sent me and I'm trying to find it because have you seen his shooting splits from distances? He's, isn't he, I think he's like 70% on twos or something? No, here's what he's shooting.

Yes, 70, he's like 78% on twos. Here's from distances, zero to three feet. This is prior to last night, so I have a feeling it went up. Yeah. Okay, zero to three feet. He's 92% from the feet.

Okay, three to 10 feet, 70% from the field. 10 to 16 feet, 73% from the field. Wow. 16 feet out to the three point line, which is a very small sample size, but he hasn't missed all season. And then he's shooting, whatever he's shooting from the three, which is like 41% from the three. Good luck.

Well, you talk about the fatigue thing, because I was thinking about that too yesterday. And he had a quote, I think it was last night, but I saw it in the last 24 hours about the bench. And they're like, what's different about the team this year? And he's like, we have a veteran bench. We have experienced guys that come in now. I feel like I'm in good hands when we go to the bench.

He said something like that. Don't quote me in the exact thing. But I was thinking, like, he goes to the bench last year, and it's stressful when he's on the bench, right? You're in your bench. You're resting, but you're also like, I hope we don't fuck it up. Do I have to go back in?

Now he's just like, I'm going to go to the bench. and relax and hang out and watch these guys, and we'll be fine. And I just, I saw a guy last night that was, that really liked the team he had and really had an edge, you know? Like I, like, there's no question. There's some Wembe stuff happening. There's the OKC thing. There's a lot of Yannis talk.

There's Houston. And, you know, he's like, not that he's reading the clips, but I, I really think he believes in the team they have. What's interesting is Kim Johnson has sucked from a shooting standpoint. season and brown's not shooting well either so there's like another level for these guys to go they're nine and two they lost that game first game against golden state first game in the year that they should have won they had a stupid loss to portland portland's beaten both okay c and Denver somehow but i watched that game on Halloween really dumb loss they should have won that and that's it like they've been

their second in offense second in defense with with rating and they're you know these two shooters that they thought they're going to have aren't even shooting the ball well heart away is. But I feel like they have a level to go up. They definitely do. And I think the other thing I noticed last year by Yokic and I mentioned it several times throughout the season, he was overtly, incredibly frustrated last year.

Remember the times you see videos of him and he'd be standing up in the huddle of timeouts and just ranting and like slapping his hand and he'd be so free and sit down on the court. He got caught up in all these weird things with defenders where he was just like trying so desperately to like get an off the ball

foul by running for the cut, but like grabbing the guy. at the same time where they'd both fall to the ground. And I'm like, what is he doing? There was some ref stuff too. There was some rough stuff that was unusual for him last year. Definitely. But he didn't usually do. I think it's because he didn't think he had a good enough team to win, Bill. I really do.

And I think now he believes they're back in it. This is to think, it's hard to imagine the guy this one three MVPs could be playing his best basketball, but I honestly believe he's playing his best basketball right now. And one last point about him, Oklahoma City's defense, which we talked about a lot here in the beginning, this is the one player. in the league that I feel like can operate in still a dominant way against them because it might not be, you know, 40-point game, but he can control the game against Oklahoma City's defense.

And if you look at all the other elite scorers in this league and the way they have to go about it, they're not going to pick you apart with their passing for the most part. They're not going to go get 20 rebounds if that's what it takes against Oklahoma City. So like his overall way of dominance and the way he can obviously, operate against one-on-one defenders, even against the elite guys that OKC has, he can still do his thing against them. And a lot of guys are going to struggle to have their normal average game against this

defense. Yokic can. And that's why right now, I agree with you. And I think Houston would be the next team on my list in the West. Me too. But I don't think they're quite on Denver's level right now. You know, two notes from last night that. I really was thinking about on the drive home,

which isn't a short drive because the Intuit Dome is pretty far away from basically everything. First of all, I think he's the best offensive player I've ever seen in person. And I don't say that lately. I'm not saying he's the best score. I'm not saying he's the best player. But he's the best offensive player I've ever seen in person. He can just do everything. He sucks the life out of the crowd.

the defenses don't really know what to do against him they try these weird tactics it doesn't work and I just think I've just never seen anybody better than them and I really decided that last night once and for I was trying to think about like where is he in my top 10 and he's just getting closer and closer to that bird magic Duncan kind of level for me

one title I think hurts probably legacy wise he needs another one but he's at least like he's at least what Wilt was in the 60s like the shit we're watching year after year after year you got to put him there. The other thing is, I think he's my favorite

player to see in person of this century. And it was either him or Curry. Where it's just like, I'm going to drive down on a Wednesday. They're playing here. I get to go see blank.

And I think him and Curry are in the finals. And I think I enjoy the Yokhaj experience a little bit more because there's so much going on and he's the maestro of everything.

And he's telling everybody what to do and he's just so locked in the way Duncan was but it's just everything feeds off him it's just fucking amazing to watch it really is I said I don't think anything you just said is remotely you know even somebody could come at you aggressively in a debate and say what are you talking about because I completely agree with you

for me I've put Curry second all time for just flat out must see yeah behind Jordan yes I think that's fair Jordan's going to be my number one all time I'm removing better to magic. And I got some of those up close to personal because I was on the court watching that. So it's like, you know, you just kind of know what that was about.

But then I like the way you put it this century. So like put that, you know, the 80s era, which you and I both love. And I love those Celtics teams in the 80s like you did. Larry Bird's my favorite athlete of all time. So we have a lot in common that way. And then, you know, you got the Jordan era. That's kind of his. And now you go, okay, this century then.

Let's go. There's a lot of guys that are super entertaining that are, you know, top 10. players all time in that in that category for me in terms of holy hell he's playing i have to see this tonight yeah curry would be the next guy for me but i understand why somebody could make the argument for yokech too because it's at the point now the stuff he does is blowing your mind with his and i think for me like i'd say what's his number one treat is it is it the passing or for a big guy. Now, for me, it's the touch.

It's the touch. How about the hands? Has anyone ever had better hands than him? No, nobody, nobody, nobody. And there's some guys that would have been good people to put in that argument. But I think he now, he's separated himself for everybody. It's the best set of hands I've ever seen on an NBA player. His touch and his ability and natural sense of distance, of depth perception,

because he shoots the ball sometimes coming out of a spin when you know for a fact he has not located the rim yet and he's already going into his shooting motion and it's incredible and it ball ends up hitting nothing. It's so soft and it just drops in. So like his innate sense of touch and distance from anywhere on the court, but particularly those areas like 18 feet in

and some of the different, because he's not getting off the ground. And you still are just so helpless against his release point. It's crazy, man. Yeah, the Curry thing, it's good to talk about both those guys because I think the thing they share

other than just, you've never seen anything like it when you see them in person. Is they're just complete one-on-ones? Like, I just don't feel like we're seeing another one again. Yokic has these, he has this bird magic Walton hybrid thing,

like all guys that I grew up loving watching play basketball. And somehow he has pieces of all those guys. Curry I've never seen before, but you go to the arena and you're like, I just get to see something that doesn't exist after this guy stops playing. It's just gone. Totally great. And the other thing I love with Yokage, which some guys have had, and this was one of my favorite things about St. Kobe in person, they just really give a shit. There's like a crazy competitiveness on every single thing.

They're always like, and I don't mean like bitching about calls, but they're always just exasperated lobbying, pointing, pushing. like they're just really locked into the result. And I was with my friend Mike Tolan last night who I shared tickets with. Yokojic had like 50 or 52 or 48. I don't remember. And we were arguing about does he know how many points he has?

And we decided no. I don't think he had any idea because I don't think he cares. I don't think he looks up. He didn't play any differently when he had 48 points. It's not like, oh, I got to get mine now. He was still making all the right plays.

And it was just really cool to watch. He would have been fine at like, oh, I guess I got 40. I don't think he would probably finds out after, right? I think that's probably true. And I also think there, I think also for guys that score, shoot, whatever, I do think there's like an internal scoreboard in your head. Like, even if you're not actively looking at the board or grabbing a stat sheet at

halftime, you are sort of acutely aware. You know you're hot. Yeah. Yeah. And even like the exact number pretty much. But he might be the exception. You might be right. Because I could see him, and you have the game, be easier to see.

If he's out of the game, like, not glancing up at the board at all. No. Just kind of sitting there. Here's the thing. What if this game, it was required of him to play another, you know, eight minutes? He would have 65. Well, so we started rooting for the quippers to come back because it was right around 20 near the end of the third quarter. And we're like, we need a quipper run.

We need him to have to go back in because he might be able to get some. 70, but they couldn't oblige. Well, think about this. So you got two guys that we just talked about, combined five MVP's, five titles, four for Curry. And last night, they scored 101 points between them. Right, right. A couple other Nuggets notes quick. You've done games with them in person this year, right?

Have you done a Nuggets game yet or no? Denver. Yeah, I've done Denver game. I don't know how, but Gordon's just bigger. Yeah. Gordon's just mammoth and I thought he was big last year and by the way he's playing great

and all his shooting stuff's up but you know it's funny like one of the narratives with the clippers was we got John Collins because Gordon killed us in the playoffs and we needed like a forward with size Aaron Gordon's way bigger than John Collins he looks like he's like 40 pounds

heavier and he moves and he just looks like he's a tight end like he looks like he should be on the chiefs with Mahomes Totally great, yeah. He just, that was... It's obviously, he's serious about taking care of his body. Oh, yeah.

He just looks great. He's looking like. Moving great, the whole thing. So that was one. I thought Murray had his... Murray didn't do anything last night, but you could just tell him it as explosiveness because a year ago at this time, he was out of shape.

And then I really liked how Hardaway looked. And that's somebody I've always liked as, like, I think you need those random bench guys, especially in a playoff series. Like, in a seven-game series, can you get hot twice for us? I still think he's got some juice left. So, yeah, I would have them number two.

And then conversely, this Clippers thing is a disaster. And I don't know if it gets better because, and I, look, I understand why they traded Norm Powell. They didn't want to pay him. He was entering his final year of his contract. He wanted an extension. They didn't want to give it to him. They want to save cap space for two. I get it.

They try to get smart. We'll get John Collins. We'll put Bradley Beal. Bradley Beal will give us the PALL stuff. Bradley Beal's out for the year. Tailu said after the game yesterday, we just lost our third best player. It's like,

did you just say Bradley Beal is your third best player? Like, your third best bench player or your third best actual player? Because you have Hardin and Kauai Leonard and Zubots. And I'm positive Bradley Bills is better than Zubots. But whatever, you can say that. But this gamble just failed because what Powell did for them last year was he would carry their offense

for like five, six minutes, right? Or if Kauai wasn't playing, it's like, well, we have Hardin. We're also going to get 25 from Norman Powell tonight. And now they don't have it. And it's all hardened and role players and then Kauai plays every once in a while. And this team's not going to make the playoffs, I don't think.

Yeah, they have a totally different feel about them now. And I saw them in the preseason and I was so impressed. And Kauai played that night. Beal didn't play. But Kauai played that night, and he looked great. I mean, he looked lean, and he was bouncy, and I'm going, man. And that night, Lopez played great.

They played the two bigs together sometimes, and that worked. It was a preseason game, but it was against Denver, actually. And both teams played for about two and a half quarters to win. So it had a different feel about a preseason game. So you actually could learn something from it. And I walked away from that saying, man, the Clippers, like, they're going to kind of be in a mix a little bit in the West because last year, they were one of the top five defensive rated teams in the league. And I loved their athletes on the wings and they could pressure the ball. Powell took a lot of pressure off of Hardin.

And Hardin had a very good year because he had Powell there to go get 20 on a bad night, 35 on a good night. And Hardin could pick his lane a little bit more. and then Kauai missed half the season, but he was upright for the rest of the year. Right, he looked great. Right. And so you're thinking, okay. And then you got the Derek Joneses and the duns of the world

and these guys, they're coffees, and they get after people to say, man, okay. And now you go out and you add some depth and some vets that can play. But man, oh man, Beal might be done. I mean, Bill's done for this year. Yeah, no, but I mean, you might be done, period. You're talking about three weeks into the season,

you're shutting it down for the year. that's man oh man oh man who knows where it leads with brad libyo i hope not i hope he comes back but i'm just saying that is pretty serious and it's a guy that's had injuries already koai hurt now spraying knees spraying foot i mean it doesn't sound like it's going to be too long but you also go man you know last year once he came back he kind of stayed back and now he's and so you thought i said going into the summer the best thing to come out of last year was that Kauai Leonard went into the summer for the first time in like five years healthy. So all he could focus on was like his body and his game and not re-sprined his ankle, right?

So maybe that's maybe you can come back from that. But yeah, just bad luck coming out of the gate. But it's his knee too. They're saying it's his knee and his foot. And so now I don't know. Who knows? Is it going to be one of those things where he's in and out of the lineup all the time? And now there's more pressure on harden again, which he shouldn't have to carry that kind of load at this stage of his career.

So you're right. And no heat check guy. There's no guy who's like, hey, for four minutes, can you get us some buckets here? No. And the other thing, 12 of their next 14 games are on the road. And the other thing, they're in the West, which has some really good teams. You know, they could, as the late great Yogi Barrow used to say, right, it could get late early out here.

And it could for them, too. You're talking about that's a month of basically road games. Three and eight, you figure New Orleans, Dallas, Sacramento, Utah, Memphis would be the five that you would say, would have said before the season, maybe weren't going to be in the playing. Or maybe Portland over. But Portland feels like if, if Holiday is going to be healthy, they're going to get some guys back.

Portland might be like a 500 or better team. They play hard. And there's been some teams this year that have impressed me with that, with like level of just effort. You know who else is playing harder? A lot harder. And it's been nice to watch Phoenix. Yeah.

last year I would watch that team and I'd go man this is just so bad like the level of effort defensively forget that like you know the all some of the offensive stuff that we focused on so much with those guys trying to play together it was more for me about okay well all right that's some rough sledding some nights because you got a weird mix of guys you don't have a true point guard yeah but but how about the other end of the floor can you compete a little bit they didn't this year that they're playing harder and I would have a good coach in that category too Yeah, Jordan. Phoenix.

Yeah, and they have better chemistry, obviously. You know, it's still early. They're seven and five, but I've been pleasantly surprised. Portland feels more real to me because with Klingin and Kamara and the holiday, they actually have three elite defensive guys. I don't know if Klingan can play more than 25, 26 minutes a game, but when he's out there, you feel it. All the advanced metrics with him, he's probably the best rated defensive center in the league

by if you want to go deep dive advanced stuff. But back to the clippers, like, they don't have their pick. They're not going to be like, okay, fine. I guess we're going to go 2557. Like, to me, they're the number one desperate team now. And like Zach theorized on his pot on Wednesday that they could be a Davis home.

I just don't think they have anything to give up because it's basically they had the Collins expiring and the Bogdanovich expiring. They could patch together contracts, but they don't have the asset. They don't have the awesome. some young player to put in the trade. And I just can't, if I'm Dallas, I'm just not giving away Davis.

I'm keeping him. But I do wonder, like, could they start talking themselves into a Zach Levine? Could they start talking themselves into a Jamarant? Like, there's guys that are going to be out there that are glass half empty, glass half full guys. I just listed too. There's more. And it feels like somebody who can score, I think you got to move sooner than later.

because it's not sustainable what they have. Well, and they're one of those teams and it happens sometimes in this league. They fall into that category of. They load it up with an older roster and it's going off the rails a little bit. It kind of feels like... Kind of like a certain NFL team you might like.

Yeah, no kidding. Tell me about it. It's such, I'm so depressed. I'm so depressed. I know. I'm sorry. I just shouldn't have brought that. I just love the NFL so much. And it's just, I just don't even care right now about watching.

I'm just so depressed about the whole thing. Yeah. But yes, anyway, that's a pretty good analogy. And so when that happens, it's not like they can go, okay, we're, you know, let's go to now the next phase, which is a total rebuild five years from L.C. No, like you've got guys on your roster that you still have to, it's incumbent upon you to try to win with. But you don't have enough right now and you've got some health issues.

They're going to be, yeah, I would think they're going to be actively trying to figure something out to bring an infusion of talent and scoring. Because their offense has been terrible. And by the way, their defense was top five last year. Their bottom five this year. They could have, they could hang the banner of we won the summer of 2025. We won the off season. So that was the consensus coming out of the summer.

The Clippers have won the off season. Well, Beals gone. Chris Paul is, I don't think is playable anymore. I think people were excited about that for some minute. I think he had back-to-back healthy scratches, right? I mean, yeah, I don't, I think it's over. Yeah. would be my guess.

And, you know, you put that team, we talked about OKC, San Antonio, how young and scary they are, Houston, how young and scary they are, the Lakers have Luca, Minnesota. I'm not sure what they are yet. Going down the line, it's, I think it's pretty rough for them.

So I think they're a desperate trade waiting to happen. I agree. And maybe they patch some expirings together or whatever they have to do. I have to bring up my favorite team, My favorite surprise team in the year, but we have to take one more break really quick. Fando puts NBA fans in control

allowing you to choose your own reward every single Friday. Choose between a no-sweb bet versus a betback token versus a 50% profit boost token. Whatever you want to do. Before you place your bets, check out the Fando's SportsBug app.

Choose the reward that best fits your betting style to practice choosing our own rewards. We're going to choose among three options for the following topics. Question number one. Coolest NBA Cup court. Pacer's, Knicks, or Spurs? I'm going to say the Spurs. I really thought they did a good job. And I can take or leave these NBA Cup courts, but I did like the Spurs one. Super

weird. If we're going to do an NBA Cup court, let's get weird. Question number two, most likely to go for 50 plus tonight. Brunson's not playing. So it's between Wemby and Curry. I'd actually go with Wemby on this because I think at some point he is due for a 50 point game. He's always in the vicinity of just getting super hot and it's never quite happened. Maybe it'll happen on Friday. Question number three, most likely to win their next game first in November, the wizards or the commanders? I'm going to say the wizards for this because every once in a while they can just make some threes. I don't see a scenario where their commanders win anytime soon. And I asked House about this and he agreed. So no matter how you play, Fandals give me the power

to choose your reward, be sure to make your choice in the app on Friday. Well, let me ask you this first. We're only 11 games in. What's the number one thing you were the most wrong about that you thought heading into the season? I would probably... That you would take a mulligan on. Probably say the heat.

Okay, explain. Well, it's funny. One thing, I've been doing this a long time, I own it if I say something. And look, by the way, we're 12 games in. So this still could go either way. But, and the word I used to describe them was boring. And because you're talking about, you know, of course, you're doing your normal, you know, preseason predictions and you're going down every team in the league. And I'm just like, we get to the heat and they're just like, yeah, okay, what?

I mean, like, they're going to be 500-ish. You know, Spolstra is one of my all-time favorite coaches. So it's not that. he's going to have them as ready as you can and as well prepared as you can and in-game adjustments are going to be there. But I just looked at their roster and I was saying, who do you like really love to watch play? That's really what it came down to. That's why I made the comment. They're kind of boring.

I don't think they've got enough offense, even though they brought in Norman Powell. And I'm like, okay, maybe they win a few more games because you brought Norah Powell. The way that they have to play doesn't do it for me. so I don't really consider them as like a team. By the way, Spelster agreed with you. Yeah. Spelster's like it doesn't do it for me either.

How do we have a new offense? I can't watch this again. So that's how I guess on most wrong, Bill, not only was I wrong about just because look, they're seven and five. I mean, that's not earth-shattering. I mean, maybe I thought they'd be five and seven right now. I don't know.

No big deal there. It's how they're playing. It's fun to watch. The pace and the entertainment value that they're playing with. That caught me completely off guard. I just didn't see how they could do it and what they had. It's very difficult to kind of reinvent your style completely from one year to the next. Jaime Hockaz has really bounced back from like last year when I was kind of like, man,

because I've liked him so much when he first came into the league. And I know what was going on. He looks great this year. Can you win most improved just because you suck the year before and you were super disappointing and then you became good again? Is that qualified? You know what? I love this conversation.

Here's what I think. If you reached a level, and for him, it was just a rookie year, but still, he played at a certain level. And then you take a big dip, and then you reclaim that plus maybe a little bit more, right, over what you were. No, I think you should be probably disqualified from that award. I would say he's DQed. This is the guy we thought he was going to be last year, and he was super disappointing. So, yeah, you don't qualify. Sorry how I'm a hack.

By the way, but that award is interesting because I was talking about this, clearly it came up with A.J. Mitchell's situation. and I'm going, I actually think in some ways the word is almost more about most improved opportunity because, like, A.J. Mitchell, I'm watching him play and I'm going, okay, I have a feeling he was doing a lot of this stuff last year,

but we didn't see it because he wasn't really playing every night. It's not like, oh, all of a sudden, he added that handle to his game in one year or his three-point shooting. No, in the small taste we got in last year, I'm like, there's something this guy can play. So it's more about, he got the opportunity this year for a lot of reasons.

And he has jumped all over it. It's a stupid award, legs. I don't, it's my least favorite award other than the clutch award. Explain, explain. I just, how do you quantify most improved, right? It usually comes down to somebody added a three point shot or somebody got more minutes or, I don't know. No, no.

Like, younger players should get better as they keep playing and keep adding seasons under their belt. Yeah, I think what you're saying is, and this is where I will agree with you. The reality is, if you took 30 teams in this league, there's probably about 90 dudes that if you really looked at their game from last year to this year and what they've improved on and added and how much better players are, they literally could probably be about 90 guys you could say it about.

So could you say it about Davey on Mitchell? Like Davey on Mitchell, I've always liked that if I had been a GM, I 100% would have traded for at some point. I was always waiting for him to find the right. team. But he didn't ever really get to play. And now he's playing on Miami. So does that mean he's most improved? Or is it like what you said? Is it just best opportunity? Something like that. I think they should have a where the fuck did you come from a word. Because then AJ Mitchell would be the winner. Austin Reeves. Austin Reeves would have won't know. Austin Reeves a couple

years ago. Maybe Jordan Walsh, if he can keep the momentum with the Celtics? Maybe we could get something done. Change the name of that. Did you see Jordan? Walsh defending Tyrese down the stretch of the last Philly game I highly encourage you. I watched most of the second half of that game. It was the most exciting moment of the Celtic season. Maxi's been lights out.

Walsh shut him down, down the stretch. Celtics lost the game. Moral victory, which is I guess all we're going to get. All right, I'm going to get my thing I was the most wrong about. And I was pretty in on my opinion on this team. I had the under for them. I thought they were going to be disappointing

I didn't see it and it was the Detroit Pistons and I've watched them a bunch of times I was definitely wrong the thing I guess I couldn't have anticipated was what happened when Duren and I haven't heard anyone talk about this

like you want to talk about most improved I know he was top five rebounder he's different this year he's just this agro alpha old school badass center who seems like he came out of like 1994 really really competitive kind of relentless

and I think with him and Cade who went up a tiny level but he was good last year and then Thompson's getting more minutes and that's your foundation with the way Duren has kind of evolved and emerged the team makes sense to me it didn't make sense to me before the season

But now I'm like, yeah, if you have those three guys, you have some shooters. Robinson has fit in. That was another one I was dubious of. He seems happy. You and I should have had a conversation then back in like August or September because I had. You like the Robinson thing? Going into the season, I had them as high as third.

Oh, wow. I said Cleveland Knicks won two, however, you know, probably Cleveland won because they won 64 games last year. They ran it back. If they stay healthy, they're probably going to win, you know, in that range again. the next you know getting to 60 might be hard so you're like okay they'll probably be two and then you start going with the i broke down those that next like five or six teams in the middle obviously boston indiana dealing with stuff so then you got milwaukee philly i had milwaukee

in that spot yeah i had i had detroit orlando three four so orlando's been a little disappointing for me but i think they're playing a little bit better it's coming around yeah it's coming around the detroit thing i i just never thought durn was going to be this good even even even though I know he was good last year, but now, you know, he's like a legitimate 2012 guy. He's a guy that, I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think they have to think about him for 2008 for the Olympics if this is who he's going to be. Because to have a center with, I think they're going to need centers with size three years from now. We're going to need a couple like big badass dudes that can bang bodies. And he's in there for me. But

What I really like about this team, and Cade played football, like he's, you know, just this really turned into this agro kind of nasty player. I mean, that as a compliment. And Duren's kind of nasty. Both Thompson twins, even though they're these handsome kids that seem like they're, but they're both of them have a little fuck you in them. Then they have Holland. They have Stewart. This is just like a really tough competitive team and they're competitive night after night after night. So I'm in.

I was wrong. I think this has a chance to be the three seat. Well, I'm going to tell you why I had a little bit also of kind of firsthand knowledge of like what I felt about them. I called one of their playoff games against the Knicks last year. Do you remember the game? It was, I believe it was game four in Detroit. The game at the end of the game in Hardaway got foul. They didn't call it on the three.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm telling you, I, I, I, was calling that game with Dave Pass. And I said at one point, I think it would be easier to complete Navy SEAL training than to get to the rim right now against the Pistons in this game. And the Knicks played really good defense too.

That was, that was, you talk about old school, you know, 90s basketball. So I'm watching this team, first of all, just the toughness, like how physical they are. They do have an elite offensive player as their main focal point in Cade Cunningham. And then it's all these other guys, guys with their athleticism and enough shot making.

And then they went out and they added a guy that I think really helps them and Duncan Robinson in the space. Because last year they had Tim Hardaway Jr. They had Beasley. Those guys are like, but they're streaky. Duncan Robinson, if he's going to take 10, 12 shots a game and obviously 90% of those are going to be threes, he's going to shoot 40%. He's going to do it like most nights.

And he's look, he's not a stopper defensively, but he's very conscientious defender. He's long, and he doesn't mind running around and chasing guys. So his spacing's been great. And Carissa has been a nice pickup for them, too, because they needed more offense. They needed, you know, what are we going to do on those nights when, like, Cade doesn't have it going, and, like, our defense isn't going to be enough. You know, we can't win 105, 103 all the time in this league if Cade Cunningham has a bad night. I think they've addressed it, man. And now they've won, what, eight straight?

And the game, actually the game they won the other night against Washington, even though it's the Wizards. I watched that whole second half at overtime. I did too. Oh, you did? Okay, so they had no business winning that game. That's why I kept watching it because they had won a really good game the night before against Philly that I thought was like, oh, we're for real. Take us seriously. And then, of course, they're down 20 against Washington.

I'm like, I wonder if they're going to come back from this. This will be a nice little test for what we have with Detroit. They came back. They did. And McCollum hits the runner with 14 seconds left to go up five. 14 seconds. And they won the game on a crazy inbound three and then they went in overtime.

But my point is, I know it's the Wizards, but that's a game that they easily could have just been like, you know what, it's just not our night. Like, it's not our night. Kind of wave the flag in the middle of the third quarter. Those are the kind of games that like teams that are like coming into their own win. They find a way to win a game on a night against a bad team

when you got outplayed, you don't deserve to win. J.B. is about to lay into you guys when you get into the locker room. And next thing you know, you do what you have to at the end of the game to get the win. That was an impressive thing for me for a young team to do in an 82 game season. And now here they are, man, 10 and 2, number one in the Eastern Conference. So I was very high on them, but I didn't think they would be at any point, like first in the conference. But they're taking advantage of some stuff for the Knicks. And the Knicks are going to probably be without Brunson for a little bit right now.

yeah i think it's legit i'm all in um and i love kade's experience as a franchise guy will probably never be replicated where he goes to a bad team and then that team craters as badly as a team can crater and that winning streak which he took really hard and openly talked about he's got this coach that doesn't want to be there there's 97 things that go wrong and now i i just see a guy when i'm watching flipping around tv like he just seems like he cares to the most out of anybody who's on any of the TVs. Like, I just think he's on a mission now.

He's a leader, which is where you want. He's so smooth. And he's such a physical presence at that position. He gives them an awful lot of, like, security. They run onto the floor every night. And they've already got this toughness about them. But they also know we also have this guy that every night is capable of being the best player in this game.

That gives them a lot of confidence. They're almost more like a football team. Then the last team I want to talk about really quickly. You know, Houston, it's a little early. The fact that Shepard is floating out there at crunch time for them, I think is super important because I was, in my head, I was like they're probably going to have to make a trade. They don't want to waste this Durant window, but they might be able to not make a trade and just keep what they have.

There's a Durant piece that's happening where he seems as locked in and as happy and as this was not the guy from Phoenix, I'll just put that. This is a guy who seems like he's all in on this team, really likes playing with these guys, respects the coach. And I was thinking about all the different coaches he's had. He's never really had a coach like E-May. Very true. Whatever.

E-May's one of those guys and he definitely did it in Boston. All right. End of the meeting. Can everybody leave? I just want to hang back here with Jalen Brown. Okay, everybody leaves. Then he locks the door. Only one of us is going to leave.

We're settling this. Like, he's like an all-time in-your-face, direct conversation, not putting up with any bullshit guy. And I think it's actually good for Durant. As dopey as that sounds. No, I think that's a great observation. And I think it's exactly what Kevin Durant needs

in this situation at this stage of his career. And I love that. about email you doca and that's why I think this team we know right now you and I both agree it's okay C Denver's right there Houston's would be the next team but there's a little bit of separation I would have Houston and Cleveland if we're gonna go both conferences I still think with the way Tyson has come on for Cleveland when they have everybody back I still feel like they have a level to them so I'd have Cleveland Houston maybe in that area Houston went out and they added what the one thing they didn't have and that that because last year I loved

their team. I loved watching how hard they played. But they had some really questionable decision making in close games. You know, Jalen Green is a wild card. You couldn't run your offense always through Shangoon. So they didn't know what to do. And now you got, well, we got a solution now. This is the guy that can go score at any time in the game against any, there's no answer for Kevin Durant offensively. Now, Dave Leak goes down. I said the same thing you did. I said it before the season. If Reed Shepard isn't ready, they might have to take a step and make a move because you didn't bring Kevin Durant thinking about the horizon over the next few years. You think about winning this year and every year he's on your roster because of where he's at in his career.

So they might have to do something. And Reed Shepard didn't start out great, but he's found his rhythm. And I think it started with this. And this is just so important to me in watching his game. I'm saying, listen, he's athletic, he's quick. He's got to really, he really gets off the ground on his pull-up so he can get that mid-range shot off. he's pretty active defensively as long as he's not playing against a bigger guard

because those guys bully him a little bit with strength but if it's just quickness he's laterally pretty good the one thing he wasn't doing was making open threes and I'm like let's start there get yourself to the point where IMA Yudoka and this staff

isn't frustrated with you because now the other things that maybe you're not as good at right now are going to really drive them nuts and they're going to get you off the floor. Make some open shots because that ultimately is something you're going to have to do

with the guys that are generating these looks with Shangoon and Durant. So he started doing that. And now you watch them. And now he's out there to do some stuff. Like he's like, I can play, man. Give me the ball. I can get it to ball screen.

He's got a little Mark Price in his game. Like with the ball screen, he kind of reminds him. More marked than Brent now. I was, I was worried there was, more Brent than Mark, but now it feels like we're closer on the Mark C-Sign. I agree. And it's, look, he's got a,

I'm looking at this now. I mean, he's got a five-game run here over the last five games. Four of those, five out of six and double figures. The last three games, he's averaging almost 18 points a game. And he is shooting 13 for 21 from the three. So he's over 60% from the three.

Yeah. It's just interesting. I noticed it a couple games ago. I'm like, oh, it's out there kind of a pivotal moment here. This is interesting. And now I feel like with their best five, they just kind of need one knockdown shooter. We know this guy. Defense has to think about it. So yeah, I thought that was a good wrinkle. And I think Durant's just completely engaged. Like he's obviously bounced all over the map from a happiness standpoint over the last 20 years.

I'm attached to him. He's one of my favorite players to watch. I don't know what happened him last year. I don't know what happened in Phoenix. Nobody will talk. It was nobody's fault, apparently that we had one of the most unhappy teams of this decade. But nobody's to blame. But he seems really engaged with this team. And I think he likes these guys. And it's a no bullshit. Everybody tries.

Everybody plays hard. So there's a ceiling. But it's weird. Reed Shepard's probably the, he's probably the litmus test for how far that team's going to go. Because I don't, if I were them, I wouldn't want to, like I was talking about last week about Tar Easton and the Phoenix pick and Van Ville's contract for Derek White. like do they have to do something like that i wouldn't do anything i'd ride this rechepper thing out

i agree with that i agree with that and uh right now they're feeling pretty good they've won seven out of eight they've got they're in the mix they've got den they've got a pretty good stretch here portland who plays hard orlando cleveland denver phoenix golden state that's their next run and so that denver game friday november 21st hopefully everybody's healthy and available for that and maybe you can kind of really now these two teams that we're talking about the challenge Joe KC can go head to head and you can get a better idea. Favorite rookie before we go, quick? I'm sticking with Cooper Flagg, but I love what Edgecombe has done in Philly,

but he's cooled off a little bit, but I still think it's all there. I'm just a, I'm a big believer in Cooper Flag as I can't miss. I think he's going to be a star in this league. He's going to have some shooting issues this year. I knew it. Their team, obviously things are falling apart around him. So some nights, it looks rough for him. I'm not even remotely, like, kind of swaying, in my opinion of what I think Cooper Flagg's going to end up being.

Yeah, I'm not going to worry about him until he's like 22, which is three years from down. Besides he and Edgecom who standing out to you? I love Flagg. We talked about this last time. Playing him at Point Guard was, I just thought, idiotic. His roster has turned out to be a really bad roster if you take Anthony Davis and Kyrie Irving and Clay Thompson's just looks like he's washed up. Maybe he can bounce back. but we're seeing a guy who looks like he's washed out.

I've been really, I love Canipal in the draft. I just think he looks like he's 27 years old already. I don't, like, LeMello's out. He's running offense for them. He rebounds. He's always in the right spots doing the right things. And I think when Lamello and Brandon Miller come back, because they kind of hit on Colk Brenner.

He's like, in actual 30 minutes a game, half decent center. but I want to see when they have all their guys back. Canipo is like just... I will admit, I may have missed this... I may have missed the ceiling down the road on Canipal going into the draft.

It's kind of like, man, this dude is really shooting up these draft boards. I'm like, he's going to be a top five pick. I was like, wow, man, okay. And now I see it. I see why. Like, he's... You make the best point of all.

He has a feel for the game that you just cannot, you cannot teach. Does not seem like a rookie. I love that he rebounds too. It's like six and a rebounds. Some guys don't show that bill until year three, four. Like for him to be showing it three weeks in to his, you know, he started his NBA career.

He's got a comfortability factor about him. That doesn't really go with being someone his age playing in a league full of grown men with a lot of scrutiny on you as a high pick. Most of those guys and they have major butterflies every night. it could last half a season. Even the ones that are, like, playing pretty well, it's just, it's different for those guys. And if Cinnipple, it looks like this is exactly where I'm supposed to be

and what I'm supposed to be doing. So he's got a maturity about him. That's going to really bode well. And he's going to be, I think, better overall long term than maybe I thought, I didn't think he'd be a bust or anything. I just didn't know that he'd be this good. Yeah, we're not allowed to bet on this award. But I do think he's a stealth rookie of the year candidate

because he's going to put up stats, to play big minutes. Coward's been really good. You know, the Celtics have this, you go, I think, if there's something there. He's just like the guy you hated playing pickup against

where everyone's telling him to calm down. He's one of those guys. But just really athletic, huge hands in the right spots, like good instincts. I think they might have looked out. I love this draft that that was great.

All right, Legs, you're calling what game tomorrow night, Lakers versus... No, I'm not actually, no. If I'm out in L.A. for a studio day. I'm only here to do NBA to day tomorrow. So I'm on set with the NBA today crew. And then we have a game next week that was changed.

We originally thought we were, I think, going to Miami for a game. But now it's going to be Dallas. And the Knicks is my next game next Wednesday night with, of course, Mike Breeder and Richard Jefferson. All right. Thanks for popping on it. It's always a pleasure to see you. Great to see you.

Thank you. Anytime. All right. We're going to do some Ringer 107 picks for Week 11. And House and I have been struggling. We're two games under 500 through 10 weeks. House doesn't think it's struggling. I wanted to be at like high 50s percent at this point.

So I'm not happy. We're sprucing up the marriage. We're bringing in Billy Gill. He joined the ringer a couple weeks ago. He's based in Florida. House, I just, I thought we needed to get a little weird this week. And you didn't know what was going on. It's like, is this my replacement?

It's just, he's here. He's to think of him like a therapist to help us work out our relationship here. I mean, you talked about sprucing up the man. Barrage and we're going down to Southern Florida. That's interesting. We could call Bob. Let's get some recommendations in here. I'm happy to be on here with Billy.

My first question, I need to know the ground rules. Am I allowed to say bad things about the Miami Heat? Is that one of these things here with Billy Gil? What are the, what are the guard rails, Billy? Well, okay, this is interesting. First, I'm glad to find out that I'm here as like a therapist because when you told me that I was being introduced into the relationship, I wasn't sure. exactly my role as like the third here.

I mean, it could be a massage therapist. Okay. Well, if I'm just like, settle down. You just met him. I'm mediating here then between the two of you, maybe, to make this work out. Mediator, uh, uh, what's the word? Augmentor. Okay.

Is that a noun? Is that a noun house? You were an English major. Lubricant. Um, facilitator gambling lubricant. Any of that stuff. So are we allowed to make Miami heat jokes? You can.

I mean, I don't see how it's relevant to this relationship. But look, whatever, this is a safe space. Whatever you guys feel comfortable doing, I'm comfortable with. How about Dolphins? Because one of the games we wanted to talk about that will not be in Ringer 107 for us is Dolphins commanders, which is House's team, which is one of the things. It's, what is the line house? It's two and a half or three.

It's been Miami by two and a half, right? Miami's favored no matter what, which is appropriate. Should Miami be favored over anybody? Um, I wouldn't think so, but the commanders have, uh, they've been on a horrible run as of late Joe, as you're familiar with the situation. This is a fun game. This is a game that I actually like this week because there's a lot of things that would indicate this is going to be a bad one, which tell me it might be a good one. Mm. I like it. Thanks. Is that you want to list any of them? Okay, so both of them are three and seven, bad teams. Both of them, however, undefeated in Spain.

Both have losing records internationally. Dolphins are 2 and 5. The commanders are 0-0 and 1. Terrible defenses. The dolphins, though, are trending up. They're 1-0 since Mike McDaniel decided to remove the pop a shot from the locker room, which he did last week.

And then after the game, I don't know if you saw, Mike McDaniel was driving around, decided it would be a good idea to troll Bill's fans at a Bills bar in Miami. And then was questioned about that, and he said, no, you know, there's a lot of things going on with AI. so dolphins that's house's defense for everything everything it's honestly not the worst defense

I guess right like because you don't know anymore what's going on like I've seen I've seen Martin Luther King win WWE championships online like it's crazy what's going on right now yeah I saw a cheetah jump into a living room and take a baby and pull the baby out of the living room and then a very small print it was like AI I was like oh I knew that wouldn't happen we have very different algorithms. Yeah. My house is about the Cheetah Baby

algorithm. How do I get out of that? You don't want to know about a house's algorithm. So do we think the dolphins are they just a zigzag every other week they're going to be a good team

or there's actually momentum with them at this point? There's no momentum with this team. What could, like the only thing the dolphins do is win games that they shouldn't be winning at this point. Like you have no business winning

in a game against the bills. All it's doing is costing you in the draft. next season. The Jets win okay, but again, that's not a positive win for them. They already got rid of their GM. You know that that was going to happen. There's this weird

kind of loyalty to McDaniel for some reason. Tua's going to be really hard to move just because of all the dead cat money that he's going to have. I as a Dolphins fan and someone who has it to a jersey hanging on my wall, which is a strange purchase. Oh my God. I just noticed

that. Wow, you framed it and everything. Well, it was a whole thing he was at the Super Bowl he signed it he was coming off his best year so i thought you know what i'm going to commit to this then the framer when i did it told me i would not do this he might be cut from the team by wednesday and i was like i was like dude this i'm trying to give you three hundred dollars and he's like i don't know i don't feel good taking this from you but i did it and i uh it's still there because i don't know where to put something that size if not on a wall i get this like what am i supposed to do with my signed bradley bill jersey at this point

in my life right right like i can't i mean i'm not putting it behind me anymore house has had some amazing jerseys he had a bob surah jersey that he got on early days of ebay yeah it's somewhere back there when hayes is here i got him a tom googlyata jersey for one of his birthday like your 30th birthday one of those yeah yeah he has some good ones the old bullets ones but that nothing compared to the giant to a jersey in the background just waiting to be to figure out and be stretched on the NFL salary cap for five years. So my two hung jerseys are a Tua jersey there and a Chris Sims jersey behind me that I got on eBay for like $18 that I couldn't believe was still a thing that they sold.

Game worn? No, no, no chance. I mean, you didn't play in many games. I understand. That's what I mean. Wait, before we move to the picks, can I ask you the seven stages of grief with Dolphin fans and Tua? When did it stop being a thing that people defended and they just kind of gave into this wasn't probably happening. I'm one of the last people who gave up on him in part just because of my financial commitment to his success

and my hope that one day maybe that jersey would be valuable and worth more than the frame that it's in. This year has been such a weird to a year because the other years like you kind of could find excuses. He had injuries. He had his concussion. So this year he just from the start

looked off. And like the easy thing to say is just maybe this is the CTE kicking in because he wasn't the same guy before at least he'd be decisive here he was taking too long to pass the ball but then he'll have weeks that he'll make a throw or two throws

and you're like, you know what? Maybe, maybe. And it's really just because you know there's no way out with him. Like what do you do? You're paying him $50 million a year. You can't just get rid of him. And then even if you do,

you're restarting again, which is just an ongoing thing with the dolphins. See, I'm glad houses here because as you were laying that out, House was trying to figure out the best Bullets Wizard example. And what did you narrow down to like six guys were you in that situation? No, I was worried. Nothing you can do about the salary.

You just are stuck with this. Just start trying to see the silver linings. It's again and again and again. I was worried for half the heartbeat there that you were going to try and blaspheme Jaden Daniels. You were going to use that conversation. I was going to do that. Yeah, because I know you, motherfucker.

I know how you roll. I wouldn't do that. I didn't want our Redskins Pat's bet. I'm not, I don't need to say anything bad about Shaden Daniels. He's, he's fine. Yeah. All right, so we're going to go through the slate really quickly. We're not, we're not going to, we're staying away from Dolphins, Washington.

We're staying away from Falcons, Panthers. That's just a hornet's nest that it's like, here, poke that hornet's nest with a stick, staying away. 49ers Cardinals, we might have in a tease a little bit later, so we might come back to that. House was intrigued by Packers Giants. To me, the Packers are just a stayaway. I didn't like the Lafleur stuff. Once that LaFleur coach stuff starts, I just get nervous. They have a lot of, I didn't like their injury report.

Plus the Giants with the new coach. Do you believe in the new coach theory, Billy? I don't know about the new coach theory. I believe in the Jamis Winston will put up a game once a year. To stay away from James theory. No, it's true. I tried to see if there was a trend on when he takes over teams for the first game if he always wins because it feels like you get like suckered into James once a team.

but there's no, sometimes he wins, sometimes he loses. He's always Jamis. Some guys just, there's no way to even attach a trend to them. They're just that volatile. I think Jamis is one of them. Anyway, we're staying away from that. I vote staying away from Stewards Bengals, especially not knowing if Rogers is the formaldehyde

is officially like killing his arm. And then Cowboys Raiders and official stay away. There's two possibles. How, so you said you like Bill's Bucks. I don't agree with you, but what was your Bill's Bucs case? I've kind of moved off of it. I feel like this version of the Bucks doesn't match up with the priors, what we've seen earlier this season,

where they were able to come back. They really were competitive against good teams. I think this Bills team with where they are right now, after waving the white flag against the dolphins, they're ready to come in, do one of their home game things where they just get rolling and go downhill and they win by margin. But, you know, the counter to that is that the Bucks defense is a decent run-stop unit. And so you're like, you know, the bills need-

The Bills are the best run team. They need Cook to get going so that Allen can have the time because they still have, you know, poverty receiving core. I thought I'm fine with staying away. I thought the, the Pats basically made three long plays. Other than that, Tampa was really physical. I was kind of impressed by them. they gave the Pats a good game.

And the Pats just made a couple of great plays, got some stops. But I think Tamp is pretty good. Anyway, that line is Bills minus five and a half. I feel like it's a stayaway because I don't trust the Bills at all in like third and eight. I don't feel like they have their receiver. What did you see last week with them, Billy? You want some Baker passing stats for this one?

Yeah, that you might like. Okay, so Baker's overpassing yard to just 213 and a half yards. He's only thrown for under 214 yards twice this season. Both times were against NFC. South teams outside of the NFC South, 276 passing yards a game. So Baker's going to go off on this game.

Yeah, I got to say how, so I had the bucks marked originally, but I wasn't sure about the Bucky Irving piece, whether they're going to be run the ball at all. I'm scared of Buffalo coming off a bad loss. I think it's ultimately a stay away. That's fine. And then Lions Eagles, we just

disagree on. Was the Eagles one of the ones you liked us? I love the Eagles. I think the Eagles are This is a version of the Eagles that hasn't existed up to this point. I think the way that they won that Greene Bay game, to me, it's like a huge, like, this is who they're going to be. We're back to trench warfare. They're going to try and dominate on both sides of the ball on the line. And the lions have shown us they can't compete with teams that take them on in the trenches.

That's how the Vikings kicked their ass. on the offensive and defensive line and the Vikings dominated them that way and I think that the lions are in for a repeat of that treatment at the hands of the Eagles. I looked at that one initially on the Lions side

because they have three home games after this and there's a case for them like if they beat the Eagles coming off a late Monday night game didn't look good. Sierra Ana was taking shit after lions come in, move the ball, do the whole thing. Their injury report

is terrifying. and I personally the lion's injury report the lion's injury report is terrifying there's so many guys on it and billy one of the things I wish we could change I think we're bad at certain things we've just gotten stuck with certain things one of them is the NFL injury report where it's basically like questionable probable doubtful didn't practice today I need like more verbs and more adjectives I need like 20 like panesu didn't practice today what does that mean he's the best part

in their offense. It's either play or not. Did you like it better? Like the NBA when pop would just put old as like reasons why people are skipping it? Yeah. But that's not helpful either. Yeah. Like I want more information on each guy beyond just like these basic verbs.

And then we're trying to do this on Thursday and Wednesday, Thursday. But then sometimes they'll practice Friday or they won't practice and you think this guy's in and then he's out. But to me, the injury report alone is a reason to make it. Any lion's thoughts? Do you want like a scale like on injury reports? Like if you're just doing words, you have like, so this is like probable, but like there has to be then subcategories of probable. So you know it like if it's probable, it's really like 70% or would you rather have like a number skill, like 83% chance of playing this week?

No, I was thinking more like nuclear bombs, like the DefCon, because I watched that Netflix movie and they kept moving the DefCon thing. And I was thinking how that, like I feel like there should be some version of that, like a sliding scale. but I think it should be one to five. So Penae So, well, if he's not, if he's leaning toward not playing, maybe that's more like injury report two. It's like, oh, shit, he's a two. But when it's like, he didn't play, who knows? Like, I don't know what to make of that.

So, or maybe it's a one to 10. Is he like, so one would be he's definitely not playing. So maybe it's like a two to three out of it. I just wish we did better, especially with all the money at stake, all podcasts like this. You don't agree, you know, I feel like we could do it. I mean, this is what AI exists for. Let's put AI to the, to the, to the, let's deploy it for the forces of good.

Tell chat, GPT, A, go in here, get the beat riders injury update. The beat riders are physically there at the football field, spitting out information into their Twitter feeds, into their Instagrams. AI, go grab that shit. Put it into a number scale for me. Give me the breakdown. That's what I'm paying for, chat, GBT. see we're still we're just stuck with ways we did things 20 years ago and I just well you and I are that's for sure no no I'm saying like some of these things we like we have just three judges

for championship boxing matches right we still have only three why can't we have five why can't we have seven why are we just relying on these three people you know why this is another one like we just have always done the injury report this way they won't flip it just let's do better who are we mad at exactly is it like the coaches the players the league the reporters, like, who is to blame for why we're in this situation? The teams. It's the lack of information where it's just like, he didn't practice. Okay, cool.

Is he practicing tomorrow? I don't know. And then we're supposed to guest on a Thursday. They're having. But it was a perfect example. Like, if he doesn't play, they have no chance against the Eagles. I don't think. We got messed up with Joe Alt that way, trying to make a Chargers pick earlier this

season when we thought he was going to play and then he didn't. And we have the two giant butt fucks of the season where Michael Pennix looking like he was going to play on a Saturday and not playing on a Sunday. And the same thing with Lamar. The Ravens, I think the Ravens got in trouble, didn't they? Didn't they have to pay a fine for, you know, he wasn't on the injury report and then he was out the next day? Like, oh.

Yeah, the Ravens did get in trouble. Anyway, we're staying away from Lions Eagles. Did you have any trends on Lions Eagles or either of those games? I forgot to ask you. Lions Eagles, no. Give us, before we go to the Five We Like, give us two trends that you had. Okay, so I've been looking into alternate uniforms this season because there's alternate uniforms for everything.

There's the throwback uniforms. There's these new Nike rivalries uniforms that are going on. Alternate uniforms have not been having a good season. So if you look at the weird throwback uniforms, the Steelers horrific uniforms lose that game. You're saying the one, the 1920s prison uniforms, whatever those were? Yeah, yeah.

What do you think of the Packers? I kind of like the helmet, where it looks like the old school leather helmet. People don't like those uniforms. People like change, it seems. I don't like anything when they go further than like the 1970s. Oh.

Because sometimes they'll bring the old Patriots uniforms. And they're really nice. The red ones with the Pat Patriot helmet. But for the most, when we start going in the 20s, 30s, and 40s, I don't get it. Yeah. Well, okay, so Nike introduced these rivalries uniforms, but they only pick like five or six teams

to do these rivalry uniforms. So it's been a bad season for the rivalries uniforms. Oh, now. Yeah, the Cardinals were the first team to wear the rivalries uniforms in week four. They wore like a weird, like it looked like a blood splatter type thing that they had on. So they ended up losing that game to the Vikings. Then we go on to week five. The Bills had a rivalries uniform, which was a pretty cool rivalries uniform.

It was like this all white. And then they had like a white and silver helmet that honestly would have looked great in a snow game, like in December. But they decided to wear it way too early in the, the season against the Patriots, they lost that game to the Patriots. So, oh, and two in the rivalry uniforms so far. The only team that's won in rivalries uniform was the Dolphins, but they beat the Jets. So that one's kind of like a mulligan. That one doesn't really count as a win. This week, we get two new Nike's rivalries uniforms. So the Patriots are going to be wearing them against the Jets. And we're tap them before that game, but we assume the Patriots are

going to win. Well, this trend would look favorably on that front. And the Rams are wearing this weird one that looks kind of just like their uniform, just navy, like a darker shade of blue, against the Seahawks. Here's the trend on these uniforms. So there's lots of teams losing in these alternate uniforms. Now, the Patriots have already won in Nike's rivalries game jersey. They were not wearing it,

but they won the Nike rivalry's jersey game. The Jets lost a Nike's rivalries jersey game. They also weren't wearing it, but they lost. So if these trends hold, the Patriots are undefeated in Nike rivalry's jersey game, rivalries jerseys games and the jets are completely defeated in nike's rivalries games so which marries real life yeah bet the house on the bills can you tell people or on the patriots can you tell people to bet the house probably not well the game already happened by the time they heard but the

rams the blue rams ones that would be the other one you're saying that's going to be this week yeah i'm not feeling as strong they would fade them no i'm going to look at those all right what so the so the blue would be, oh yeah, so it looks like basically that it's harkening back to the late 70s kind of look. So it's in your window of acceptable kind of throwbacks? I just I think for Rams Seahawks

wear your own normal fucking uniforms for one of the biggest games of the entire season. What do we need gimmicks for? Well, it's also, I think, a Cooper Cup revenge game, right? Everybody says that. Is it qualify? It's what I've been hearing. It's the talk of the town.

Can you play for an hour straight? without getting hurt. Give us one more trend before we go to our big picks. All right. So power couples have been a thing in the NFL the past couple seasons. Obviously the biggest one

was Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey. But there have been other minor power couples that have gone on. You had Haley Steinfeld and Josh Allen who now got married and that was a power couple. Josh Allen goes on and he wins the MVP.

You had a smaller power couple amongst influencers, Braxton Barrios and Alex Earl. But they were a power couple, couple at the wrong time because that my daughter was focused on that one was she yeah okay yeah she thought she thought her perception was that braxton barrios was a bigger star than he actually is it worked out for brachson barrios on that front uh however i think he got like seven receptions that year so it didn't really translate onto the field for him and again like had they come a year earlier a year

later they probably would have been much bigger couple but the whole taylor swift situation really ruined it for them. But this year we have a new power couple. Madison Beer and Justin Herbert are a power of couple. So this week, Justin Herbert, over one and a half touchdowns is the line. He's playing against the Jaguars. Since Madison Beer released her new single on October 10th, Justin Herbert has had over one and a half touchdowns, four out of five games. The chargers are also four and one in those games. Wow. And the one game that they lost. Justin Herbert passed for 425 yards, but they lost the Colts. So do with that. Damn, and I like the Jaguars this week. So I went to a Laker game, second week of the season,

and it was the day after they put it on Thursday, and the two of them were sitting courtside. And they showed them on the video screen, and it was like half-hearted applause. Just felt like the fans should have been more excited. It was like the fourth best quarterback in the league or the sixth best quarterback, but seemed pretty happy, stayed the whole game. I'm not sure. She's one of those influencers with multiple jobs. So she's like singer, social media. I think she's kind of been an actress. I couldn't really follow it.

Does your daughter care about Madison Beer at all? I told her and she did not care. Okay. That one got a no care. Can I ask a question? Yeah. Feels disrespectful to a power couple that's staring us right in the face. I mean, we might see them tonight.

Stefan Diggs and Cardi B. that's not a power couple that's not an NFL it's tough because he had the kids with two different women at the same time she's carrying a baby I know but they

but then someone else is too so are others yeah yeah I think that diffuses it a little bit she shows up at the games she did she was in the we think that she's you know she was in the craft suite demanding the Drake throw

throw the ball to Stefan we think that she's celebrating Stefan digs successes. Stefan Diggs has been a great patriot. He's been a leader in the locker room, and I support anything he wants to do in his romantic life.

All right, first game that we're looking at here, Billy. Vikings Bears. I think House and I both like this one. Vikings are favored by three at home. Vikings basically have their full deback, and I was trapped on JetBlue watching four games on the Multi-View, and I watched the entire Ravens Vikings game as one of the four. And I thought the Vikings were in that game the whole game.

And I was surprised how the Ravens, how, you know, it seemed like one of those games they were going to put away in the first half and they just kept settling for field goals. The Vikings were hanging around at one point in the second half. It felt like they might actually make a run and McCarthy wasn't quite ready for it yet. But to me, so I think the Vikings are okay. I don't get the bears at all. I keep track of like wins, losses in these either war games where it could have gone either way.

So right now the Bears are two and two, and they have five either war games. Their two wins were against Dallas when C.D. Lamb got hurt. And then they beat Spencer Radler and bad weather at home. And then they're four and one in the either war games. And the wins were Vegas, Sincere Washington, and New Orleans. The defensive stats are bad. Some of their first and turnovers. They're just kind of one of those teams, and I'm waiting for it to end.

And I don't, I watch these Ben Johnson locker room speeches after the game. And they're, Sal and I talk about, I remember, every Sunday night. They're hilarious. He's like, this is who we are. Nobody let us hang around the last four minutes. And it's like, your team's terrible. What are you talking about? Do you have any bear's thoughts, Billy? I can't figure out if Caleb Williams is good or not. Because he's like another one of these quarterbacks where it's like, okay, this was like an okay first round pick. Like, no, this was a disaster. This is going to go the way of Justin Fields. And then they got him all those weapons last year. Then they fire the coach. They bring him Ben Johnson.

they're six and three, but like, and three? You know, like, there's, is there a team that you guys are convinced is a dominant team this year, like a good team? Because even the ones with the good records, I have no idea if they're good or not.

What's your answer, house as I try to fix the shade in my office? I think both the Rams and the Seahawks are good. I think both of them are good. And I think they're both good on both sides of the ball. We'll do the handicapping, of that football game here soon enough,

but I want to interject, we don't, can I just say I agree with those two? Okay, good. Anybody else? And I think, I mean, the chiefs, I'll say the chiefs.

I'll go ahead and go way out on the limb. I think the chiefs are good. And I think the Patriots actually might be good. But I just think they need a couple more wins under the old belt. Seems like a good. Those would be my far back.

But we agree. Ram, Seahawks, I think the Eagles have to get credit just for putting up wins. I mean, there's, you know, at some point, if you're winning every week, you can't nipick too much. And they're not playing a bullshit schedule. No, they've had hard games.

They're beating the best teams. Anyway, what were you going to say? I just wanted to interject on the Caleb Williams question. We have no idea whether he's good or not because this is the first nine games, eight or nine games with a genuinely competent person calling plays. It's like this is the first time in however many years that he's actually trying to play. like an organized offense. And it's why I think we keep seeing

these game scripts where the first couple of offensive possessions by the Bears, hey, look at that team. They look pretty effing good. They're moving the ball down the field. And at the three hour mark and he bails so quickly. He goes through no progress. But it's a work

in progress. I do think over the balance of a full season, we'll see Ben Johnson and they'll get on the same page. Right now, you know, it's inconclusive, leaning, not good, but I don't think we can make a call yet. You know, you know what's interesting about him? This should be an award when they do NFL honors.

If you did like, you know, you have like these mixtapes of basketball players in high school and they all look incredible. It's like they're just hitting threes and alleyup dunks. And you know that's not what would have the experience to actually watch them. The Caleb mixtape this year would be pretty incredible. Like some of the scrambles he's had, especially in big moments, like the past to Loveland. Yeah. Like he's had, but then if you watch him for three hours,

there's also like all of these other terrible plays he makes and he's like the classic scrambles to the right and runs out of room and has to throw it out of bounds. He does all that stuff. And then every once in a while he'll have an awesome throw. But I ironically feel the same about, too, not lately because Tua is kind of falling into an abyss, but Tua was like that for a while where it seemed like the wheels were coming off.

And then all of a sudden he would hit four dudes in a row and be like, wait, is he good? You just kind of never can get a handle on it, right? Well, even when he goes, what, like 24 of 27, he has, like, those three are so bad and you just look past all of the positive stats. And I'm like, oh, my God, like, what are we doing with this guy? And he's like, well, those numbers aren't actually that bad. And his QBR wasn't bad that game.

Like, he's not that bad. Right. Who do you guys think, I guess, is the best player or the player that you could make the best highlight real of in the league that's actually not very good? So you could show someone like, look, this is the NFL. And they see that person like, wow, this guy's incredible. They're really not. They just have such like big bam plays.

And the rest of the time, they're just shit players. It's probably a running back, right? It's probably like some running back who every once in a while can make people miss. For the Patriots, it's Austin Hooper, the number two tight end. You could cut like he had eight awesome catches this year. And if you cut them together, it's like, is this guy grunk? Look at these catches in traffic.

Who do you think at his house? Joe Flacco, who I love. I say that with all of the love in my heart. I say, I mean, it's just an amazing moment in his career. It's just, you, like, seriously, every one of his throws in Cincinnati have been the best throws, the most amazing throws. The scramble that he had on that Monday, night football, like, anyway, I'll stop. Brian Thomas Jr. is like that, too, because he's had a bad year by all accounts, and I have him on multiple fantasy teams, and he's had drops over the middle and all kinds of stuff.

but he's also had like seven awesome plays. Last year he had a lot more. Vikings minus three, I think we're locking that one in-house. Lock, lock, lock, yeah. The only fear is J.J. McCarthy. Listen, he's up and down. Great throw one play, horrible throw the next play.

He'll have an awesome scramble where you're like, wow, this guy, there's something here. And then, you know, he'll be running for his life next play. Literally, you said it. All of the Bears wins are because of turnover differential and we're betting on a guy who's a turnover waiting to happen. That's what we do. So, yes.

One other thing I like kitchen sink game for the vikes because they have at Green Bay at Seattle next two weeks, the four and five, like this is it. You lose this game. The Bears go to seven and three. You're not going to make the playoffs if you lose this game. Bears could lose the game and be okay. Billy might have to talk us out of this next one.

We both like the Browns at home. they're getting seven and a half at home against Baltimore. They played three home games in Cleveland this year. And I think we bet on the last one, the Dolphins one. That was like our pick of the year. They won 31 and 6th. They beat the Packers 13 to 10. And then in week one, they should have beaten the Bengals and lost by one.

Then they had an overseas game. And I didn't really like how Baltimore looked last week. But bad weather, Cleveland are at home. Just ugly. It has all the makings, Billy, but you're making a face. It's just the Browns are such a hard team to want to take. I mean, you don't think they're going to win. You just think they're going to cover this game, right?

Yeah, it feels like a, what, like a 13 of 9? It feels like the AFC North game between these two teams that we've been watching for the last like, I don't know, 15, 20 years. I mean, there are some incredible splits for the Browns, defense especially home. versus on the road. I think over the last three years, I can't remember, this is maybe like Stucky from the Action Network.

The Browns against the spread are over 60% at home. And they're like five and 20 on the road. Like this is just, they're yards per, you know, offensive possession are the best in the NFL,

defensively. They're allowing an average of 11 points a game at home, but only three games. We've been talking about this for a couple years that there's just like two versions of the Browns and if you can get them at home in bad weather, it's almost like just don't think of them as the Browns,

think of them as their another identity entirely. I didn't like how Lamar looked last week. He's only watched for 50 yards in two games since he came back. He doesn't have the same explosiveness. And obviously he's not 100%. He had a hamstring injury that was a calf for a hamstring. It was one of those leg injuries. but I just didn't think he looked great.

The counter here is we're taking Dylan Gabriel and there's just some awful, awful Dylan Gabriel's stats. Really bad. But I'm not sure if it's a bad weather home game. Like, is he even involved in this game? No. Just going to run the ball. Quinn Sean, Quinn Sean.

Yeah. I don't like that situation for Lamar. I have him in a Geia team league. I got him for $2 last week and I was like, this is going to be, this is how I win the league because half the teams ran out of money. and then there was only one other person with money. Like literally $0 is how I got him for two.

Because I realize there's only one other person that can bet or can bid on him. And he has Josh Allen, so he's not going to do it so then I can save money. And now we're just in like survive week to week mode. And there's one other person with money in this league. And if I knock him out this week, we're good. So I was going to play Lamar, but now I'm thinking against playing Lamar this week. I would not play Lamar this week. What's your other option?

I concur. All right, hold on. Yeah, that's a stay away. I'm in the same situation, the Guillotine League, House and I are in that House got knocked out of. There's seven teams left and only three have money. Everyone else has zeros. And nine inches becomes hunger games for these like superstars the last couple weeks

with the three people have the money. Well, so I'm down to three teams because we only had, I think, 12 teams in it this season. So it's three of us that are left. Only one other person has money. They have like $80. I have like $500, which is kind of, useless and then the other guy that's in first says zero dollars so if i just survived this week i can just outspend everyone else in this league you just have what you put together an all-star team

well sounds amazing and it's also like Matthew berry is in this league for some reason so like there's the added i just want to beat the guy who has come up with this and has made a career out of fantasy like even if i lose the rest of this he's like i don't know how many leagues you guys are in with just like normal people that they think, oh, because you're in sports, you know so much about this and they get like this pride and beating you

and it's like, I don't know shit. Like I know the same as you guys do about everything else. Like fantasy-wise, I'm just hoping my guys don't get injured and like it's a crapshoot. But the pride that I would take out of knocking out someone

who's made their entire lifestyle out of fantasy would just... You should start doing taunting videos. I mean, I don't want to pour water on this, but I think he's in like 27 leagues. Yeah, no, I know. I'm not the only one. He might have, like, minions doing his teams.

Honestly, the reason that I'm, like, trying to sneak by is because I'm like, this is so low on his list of priorities in terms of, like, fantasy. He might not even know he's in the league. Yeah, I probably, well, he went a little crazy with the money this week. He was throwing out, like, $200 of people. Yeah. Play somebody other than Lamar. Who's the other choices?

I have Herbert. So I think I'm going to go with Herbert this week. Actually, you know what? Well, especially after the Madison Bierstadt. I don't know why I was even giving a second thought. I had to stop, I don't play fantasy basketball anymore because anytime I was in a fantasy basketball league in an auction, anytime I started bidding on somebody,

people would just go $1 higher than me just because they figured, well, he loves basketball. If he likes this person, I'll just go $1 higher and it just wasn't fun. House was one of those people. Yeah. F-U house. Speaking of the Jags Chargers,

I had this one marked down, Jags plus three. So Herbert could still have a good game. It could still hate your trend. It's going to be 78 degrees in Jacksonville. And I'm guessing a little bit humid too, right? See if the Chargers, these LA kids, they get to play in a dome. They don't really get to see this.

But I thought the weather actually mattered last week in that Buffalo game. And we see it in Miami, what, twice, three times a year? These teams go to Miami and the weather's weird. and I feel like it happens in Jacksonville and it'll happen in Tampa, but there's some really interesting, I mean, the Chargers' offensive line is just terrible. And they lost their two anchors.

It didn't really manifest itself last week because Rogers was so bad and it almost didn't have to. But I could, I just feel like the Jags, they're like a zigzag team, and this is the week to follow the zag. Jags plus three. It feels like a three-point game.

house. If Jack's about won last week, which they should have won and thank God they didn't because we had the Texans, if they won, is this spread even? It's, what do you mean even? Like near pick-o-le-up or minus one or something? Is it in the Tick-Tac zone? No, no. Yeah, you Tick-Tax zone probably. I don't think it would have been gone all the way down because the way that the Chargers won, that's really what I think this price is about. They dominated the Steelers on national TV. So they're getting a, you know, giving out a price. Did they dominate them or was Rogers just horrible. But think about us.

Rogers was horrendous. And I thought the Steelers defense was tremendous. But we're talking about a market, the Vegas setting a number. That's a different thing. That's people's eyeballs. What was the score of that game? Oh, well, look, the Chargers beat the rest.

Yeah, right, right, right. What do you think, Betty? I'm thinking back to the playoff game where Justin Herbert looked like he was going to beat the Jaguars and they had that lead. And I'm wondering if the ghost of two years ago were going to come back and get in the head. That helps our cause, yeah.

Get in the head of Justin Herbert and think, you know what, I can do it here. And then if things start slipping towards the end of the game, like, oh, no, it's happening to me again. And the Jaguars come back and take them down. I like that. Yeah, I do believe in that the residue of these old skeleton games from the past in either way, right? But how far back in the past? Because two years ago, it's kind of borderline back in the past for ghosts, right?

A lot of different faces. Different head coach, maybe. That could make a difference for the Chargers. also the jaguars play weird games like you can get jaguars plus three they could lose 31 to 30 or I just think this game has weird game written all over it and especially the humidity and stuff I don't think the jaguars are that bad I've you look at their schedule you look at some of the they played some really good teams I don't trust them at all I wouldn't I wouldn't ever want to lay points with them I don't think in any situation but in this situation I don't mind it

So we're staying away. Oh, no, we're not staying away. You want to put the Eagles minus one and a half against Detroit. You want that to be your pick, potentially, has? Yeah. Potentially, yeah. I mean, but I, you know, we're definitely doing the Jags plus three. We're definitely doing the Browns plus seven and a half.

We're definitely doing Minnesota minus two and a half. There's one more I really like. Yeah. And I think I agree with you. So, I mean, I do like the Eagles this week, but go ahead. I think we're in agreement on the other one. that you like. I really like the Seahawks plus three against the Rams.

I'm all in on the Seahawks team. Aaron Schatz. I don't know. See the creator of DVOA, the king of DVOA, what's his moniker? Whatever you give him. You're the podfather.

You name it. B.O.A. You dub it. Igniter. I don't know what it is. He said... He has an army, though, now that does his bidding for him, right? Like, if you look at his book,

it's like, this team was written by this guy, and this one was written by that guy. He has the formula, but it seems like he might be getting a little too big for his britches on this. Billy Gill. Well, he was calling this the DBA Bowl. Oh, I like this. It's one against two. Very good.

Seattle's one. The Rams are two. Well, he's allowed to do that since he invented it. The case for each side, both teams are really good. You can throw on the Rams. I just think you can. I've watched Mac Jones do it twice. I watched it last week.

I felt like if they don't have that Juan Johnson fumble or Jennings, then there was that McCaffrey gets stoned on the fourth down, but they were like right there just going back and forth with the Rams. And that Niners offense, I wouldn't call it juggernaut. And I just think they can move the ball on them. I think either this is a close game or the Seahawks win. So I like that.

I don't think the home field is going to matter that much because it's whatever, it's L.A. the flip side Billy Darnold in a huge game which we have not seen since the last two times we saw it which was the last two games of last season when he shit the bed Yeah I mean

And it's hard to just be like He's fine He seems due to not shit the bed though Right like in law You can't always shit the bed At some point you run out of shit He's not not fine I think he's fine.

I mean, he's having a great year. Yeah. This is to your point, an observation around San Francisco. I had that note as well. It sets up in two ways to my mind for Donald to have success. In the first place, Seattle doesn't try to run the ball. The Rams have a good run defense, but their secondary is super getable.

And you can go through beyond the San Francisco games and get there. The reason that I especially like, this Darnold matchup. His deep ball is exquisite. And it was exquisite last year as well. And he gets rid of it fast. They're not having him stand back there. We just watched two consecutive games.

Now it was Washington and Arizona. But they went out. They had 28 points before anybody sat down with their popcorn. And people like Arizona's defense. Yeah. I'm one of them. Well, their secondary was banged up and they were on a short week. So we can try and excuse some of that for Arizona.

but um full week of shaheed by the way shahid might be your answer billy for uh highlights for the highlight guy okay you just take like eight shaheed plays and it would you be like is this what gail sears was like in the 60s crossed with jerry rice i think if i got like a justin field highlight reel and i put it in a time capsule and had someone open it in like 40 years they'd look at like wow this was like this guy was really good at the time and just don't show them anything else other than his scrambles. But also 40 years from now, like, I think back, don't show any passes. Yeah, football, if I see, like, highlights from football 40 years ago, I'm like, wow,

that is a terrible game. So I can't even imagine what football will look like 40 years from now where you're like, yeah, these people are completely unathletic, they're very slow, they can't make throws. Like, what were these people watching back in the day? I've actually done this. I've watched, like, quarters from YouTube has entire games. and you're watching quarters from like 1979. And it's just kind of amazing to watch.

First of all, the guys are much smaller than they are now. That's like one of the first things that jumps out. And then the second thing that jumps out is everybody's just getting clobbered and annihilated. And the quarterback's going back to pass and just guys are diving at his legs and people are hitting from behind. And the quarterback's like just trying to get rid of the ball before he gets killed, basically, is all of these games. And they're like bizarre to watch.

Do you feel worse for the bad players today that would have dominated an old era or the really good players of an old era that were paid like $10,000 a year? I feel worse for those guys. Yeah. Yeah. Like, especially the got the 70s and early 80s NBA guys, they just have to be going nuts. Like the Bradley Beale contract. Like, can you imagine being, I don't know, pick anyone from 1977?

Like Dr. Jay, who they carried the ABA. There's no way he ever made more than like maybe like two million a year, you know, and he's watching like Kevin, Kevin Durant's made almost $700 million. Or $600 million or $600 million, something like that. Whatever it is, deserves it. Look at how much the league is made. It's fine. House is always pro-labor and for the players.

He's pro-labor in the baseball dispute. He's already, he's laid his smack. He's laid his slag. Back down. Incorrect. What are we doing? Are you hoping for a holdout? Wait, did you like that one of Manfred's goons put out a hit on Bryce Harper?

It's all starting. It really is like this next couple months. It'd be a good podcast because we've been trying to figure out of how we could have a baseball podcast. And maybe the podcast should just be like monitoring all the shenanigans that are about to happen. Hit pieces all over the place. It's going to be great. Seahawks were taken

Jags were taking that leaves one spot but we both like the chiefs we just don't like the hook the chiefs are three and a half in Denver and I've just had it with Bo necks I just can't

he's not beating the chiefs the way he's playing there were multiple plays in that Thursday game when you could tell Herb Street wanted to go really in on like what the fuck is this guy doing but he was like holding back

I just think he's a complete mess. I have a couple Broncos fans in my life, and all of them are kind of like, if we can just get a good hour of him, like they're already in that mindset. And the Chiefs need the game. That's the other thing. It's not like the Chiefs are 9 and 0, right?

They're 5 and 4. They're not even in one of the seven playoff teams. So I'm afraid of the hook. I want to be on the record. I'm not afraid of the hook. This is the Chiefs coming off of the buy week going up against this completely, incompetent offense.

They will have Spags knows how to scheme up against Bo Nix. I'm not worried about Spags having the time. The single biggest thing that Denver enjoys is an unprecedented fourth quarter point differential.

They're beating all of these garbage teams in the Eagles game. In the fourth quarter, right. The Eagles is the lone exception. They did a good job there. But I mean, I'm not or rewarding them for the outcome against the Texans. They knocked the quarterback out.

The guy still hasn't come back yet. No, I'm very suspicious of this Denver team. And I think the chiefs are ready to come in and handle their business. How do you guys feel about Sean Payton? Because, like, Sean Payton was the genius, obviously, with Drew Breeze, right? And then he was supposed to be the quarterback fixer. And then it didn't happen with Russell Wilson. And then Bo Nix was his guy.

And he was okay last year. but he's not, do you guys think Bo Nix is going to be a superstar quarterback? Like probably not, but they have a great record. So is he a good coach or is he not a good coach? I was just talking to one of my Bronco fan friends, Dave,

who's kind of like, I don't really fully understand this Peyton is a genius thing. I think the Bronco fans are starting to, he's had some weird calls, especially when was the Super Bowl, the Colts, like he's been dining off that onside kick call, which was in 2009, like entourage was on in 2009. Like it was a million years ago. I was year two of this

podcast. But I think that some of the game management stuff with him is pretty strange. And I don't understand what like some of the stuff they asked Bo Nix to do. It just seems like he can only do a couple things. Like he can roll out to the right and do a quick pass. They keep asking to throw these deep passes and he just can't complete any of them. You know, I actually like their players. I like Franklin. I like Sutton. I like the running backs. They can block. Good time.

So I'm with you. I don't. So you're down on Peyton. It sounds like Billy. I just yeah, I don't think he's like the genius savior that he was painted out to be. But at eight and two, it's hard to explain to people why he's not doing a good job. Right. I mean, considering

where they were this franchise was with Russell Wilson as their quarterback. And then he He quickly showed Russell Wilson the door that Broncos made the playoffs. And now here they are once again, you know, at the top of the, of the AFC West. It's tough to challenge like the big picture stuff, even though. Yeah, but we're talking about like the minutia piece. I know. And I'm going to build an agreement.

I thought he did a great job with the draft picks, free agent signings. The team has an identity. He's really good at kind of puffing his chest up on behalf of the team, talking about we're a Super Bowl contender. he's, does a lot of, like, almost like he wants to give them the confidence. But then you watch some of the game management stuff. And that's why I think they could be in trouble with the Chiefs. But so, House, you want to just, you just want to, like, lay the hook here.

I have no problem with it, but I understand your reservation. And it really does, you know, fly in the face of what we've watched all season long with these Broncos, which is pulling something out of their butt right at the end that, you know. They are the colon blow team of 2025. because we could do Chief's Money Line with the Green Bay Money Line but then we have

we're banking on that weird Packers team we could do Chief's Money Line with Houston plus two and a half in Tennessee I don't want anything to do with that game you want to say you don't like Davis Mills even though he saved our ass last week that that was it that's the end of the road

you can't ask for anything more from Davis Mills he saved our ass last week that's it don't ask for anything more so you're saying Kat we're at the blackjack table with Davis Mills and we have to get up get and put in the chips. Yes, the cooler has come to the table. It's time to get up.

Bill, you didn't have any Davis Mills trends, did you? No, I didn't. I didn't really look up Davis Mills. I forgot to have you prep on that. I'll look into that. Chiefs Money Line, Arizona plus nine and a half. That was another one.

That Arizona against the Niners. Fine with that one. Go ahead. Oh, you like that one? Oh, yeah, fine. I don't think that the Niners are going to win by margin. The card, this is a division game. Here's the one.

So we can move the Chiefs line one point. get away from the hook, Chiefs minus two and a half and put it with Arizona getting 13 and a half against the Niners. And the Niners just like they're starting defense.

It's like, hey, that's Kean Wade. He used to be in the Patriots. It's one of those defenses. Every guy they have is somebody that's probably been on your team in the last two years. So you like that one?

We would rather do that or just lay the hook house? I'm fine with both. That's not an answer. Well, as a therapist, you're going to have to pick a side here. Well, maybe we asked Billy, would you rather lay the hook with the Chiefs?

Just say, fuck it. Chiefs would have to win by four points in Denver. I feel like I'm not supposed to give my thoughts here because this is you guys working in the situation. We want your thoughts. We want your thoughts. Because we can also just stay away from this game. We have six choices.

How strong are we feeling about it? Do the Chiefs plus, I mean, minus two and a half in Arizona plus 13 and a half? 49ers cannot. The only way 49ers win by margin is if the Cardinals give them the ball. If there's like special team catastrophes, Brissette, you know, fumbles. Yeah, but that might happen.

Why is Tennessee going to beat Houston? I just don't want anything to do with the Texans. We got the thing with the Texans. That's it. We need to be happy with it. Let them get stroud back. Do you believe in new coach giants, anything? I like the Giants because of James

I think James has a James a Jamis game. Yeah, one game. I don't want to lay the points with Green Bay, but Green Bay isn't going to lose three straight games. We already talked about this. We got to stay away from James.

I don't trust James. All right. Staying away. It's like when the wrong dealers comes in to the table and you're like, I don't trust that guy. All right. So we need the Chiefs minus three and a half for Chiefs minus two and a half with Arizona plus 13 and a half.

that fits under our minus 1.20. That's what we're talking about. We're still there. Who's the choices? You pick. I'll do the combo. I prefer the combo. Arizona plus 13 and a half,

Chiefs minus 2 and a half. It's the sissy way out. I admit it. So Vikings, Browns, Seahawks, Jags, and then Chiefs Cardinals. I think we stay away from Eagles Lions. You can.

I'm fine. I've already bet the Eagles. I'm going to keep betting them. Okay. I also bet the Chiefs. I bet the Chiefs at minus three and a half. I'm fine with it. But we're trying to win here.

Okay. All right. The Ringer 107 is presented by Fandul's sportsbook. First one we were doing. I had the wrong line before. I thought it was Vikings minus three in Minnesota against the Bears. And then House reminded me before we started this part that it's actually minus two and a half. So that's even better.

We get an extra half point. Vikings minus two and a half at home against the Bears. Do I trust J. Jim McCars? not totally do i trust caleb williams to burn us not really uh kitchen sink game for the vikings they have to have it they're playing green bay and seattle on the road next week anyway vikings minus two and a half to write the ship and keep their season alive that's our first pick browns plus seven and a half at home against baltimore a pick that made billy briefly recoil and then by the time we went through it he had decided to uh not have lamar jackson in his guillotine

lineup this week. I'm easily swayed. Bad weather at Cleveland. How's you made the point. Cleveland at home is just like you almost, they shouldn't be called the Browns, call them something else. Call them the Cleveland ass kickers.

Browns plus seven and a half and we're going to try to not pretend that Dylan Gabriel's the quarterback. Seahawks plus three against the Rams. I think the Seahawks are slightly better. This to me is a playoff game with playoff rules. I'm not sure because now with the home field advantage you get plus you get one and a half, right, if you're home. So they have Rams are getting three. They're saying the Rams are better than

the Seahawks. I just disagree. I think you can throw in the Rams. We didn't even talk about how good the Seahawks have been on the road for the entirety of Mike McDonald's tenure as a head coach. They are excellent on the road. By the way, they have two losses and should have won both of the games. So there you go. Jags plus three in Chargers against the Chargers and 78 degree weather in Jacksonville. Some trends Billy brought up about Herbert power couples that I don't think, I think he can put up stats and we can still get our result. I love the plus three because I think the final score of this game will probably be one or two points.

And either way, that's good for our bet. But I think the Jags can win this. I don't think the chargers can block. At some point, it's going to come back and bite them. And then last but not least, we're going to take the chiefs. They're favored by three and a half. We're going to move it to two and a half. We're going to move at one point.

And to do that, we need the juice from Arizona plus 13. and a half at their home right against san francisco they're home yes they're home yeah that sounds great yeah let's do um ganon time and that is under our minus 120 threshold so those are our five picks billy any last thoughts i think uh i think seahawks picks a good one but not not because what you're saying the rams remember alternate jerseys rams alternate jerseys a guaranteed loss this week very fair that was the ringer 107 presented by a fandle sports book billy what you think I think we made a lot of progress this week. I think that you guys are in a better place than you were when we started.

I feel the same way. Excellent. I feel, I feel closer to house. You can hear Billy, Billy's going to pop on different ringer podcasts. Probably like this for a little while. You're in the college football tailgate show.

Ringer Tailgate, yeah, check it out. Can you rank the host before we go? Ooh, wow. Okay. Your favorites? Oh, now I have to play favorites. three to one sure

oh you want to do that yeah let's do that way three to one are we doing we're doing just ringer tailgates three to one here yeah

all right just for your not for the entirety of the podcast but for your experience on the podcast yesterday my experience on the podcast

Joel is an easy three bottom of the barrel I would say yeah Joel's at the bottom and this is like a big one Tate and Van

yeah Van really sold you a couple of big belly laughs yeah You know what? Like I told you, I'm easily swayed. So I'll put Tate at 2 and van at 1. It was my power rankings for this week.

That's good. You need a vanned LSU jersey up there to replace the 2 of Jersey. There we go. All right. House has to go. I got to go. Pleasure. Great to see you guys.

Thanks. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to House and Billy. Thanks to Legs. Thanks to Gahua and Eduardo as well. And we are going to be back on Sunday night with guest aligns and a lot of good football games.

Can't wait to talk about them. Enjoy the weekend. 88879-777 or visit cc pg.org slash chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in maryland hope is here visit gambling helpline m a.org or call 800 327 50-50 for 24-7 support in massachusetts or call 8778 hope n y or text hope n y in new y in new york