The Bill Simmons Podcast - "One Trade Away" NBA Teams With Rob Mahoney, MLB Doldrums With Mike Schur, Plus Bill’s Dad With a Boston Sports Update

Episode Date: February 3, 2022

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Rob Mahoney to discuss teams who may be "one trade away" from seriously improving their season, including the Grizzlies, Cavaliers, Celtics, Mavericks, 76ers, Hornets, and more (1:16). Then Bill talks with writer, producer, and loyal baseball fan Mike Schur about the Baseball Hall of Fame induction debates, the MLB lockout remaining unresolved as spring training approaches, Mike's pitch on how former players mired in PED controversy can still make the Hall of Fame, and more (56:01). Finally, Bill is joined by his dad to discuss Boston sports, including the Celtics, Tom Brady's retirement, the future of the Patriots, and more (1:26:54). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Rob Mahoney, Mike Schur, Bill's Dad Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, if you love wrestling, check out the Ringer Wrestling Show, which features David Shoemaker, Mac Mania, the return of Chi Pete. They did some great Royal Rumble coverage this week. Check it out, the Ringer Wrestling Show. It's the Bill Simmons Podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet it all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the Chargers are going to be good. I think Seattle's going to be good. And then trying to back what you think in those first few weeks and then zag

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We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where on the Prestige TV podcast, I'm actually on there with Chuck Klosterman today. We broke down Pam and Tommy on Hulu, the first three episodes, and what that whole situation meant in the mid-90s versus what it means now. Should this have been a movie or a TV show? We talk it all out. Check it out. You can also check out the Ringer NBA show and the Mismatch and Ryan Rossell's podcast if you want your trade deadline fixes. Rob Mahoney and I are going to be talking about that

in one second. Also going to be talking to Mike Schur about the Baseball Hall of Fame and the baseball lockout. What the F is happening with that? And we might have some other surprises at the end of the podcast. So that is all coming up next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, Rob Mahoney from the Ringers here.

We're going to talk about the NBA trade deadline, which is a week from today. Specifically, which teams are one trade away? Now, one trade away, Rob, can mean one trade away from potentially winning the title. It could mean one trade away from contending for the title. Or it could mean one trade away from being frisky in the playoffs. I think those are...

Just having a fun sprint, you know? Yeah. So, like, the Celtics and Hornets are good examples of, like, I don't think either of those teams can win the title. But maybe with the right trade, they're frisky and you could see them getting a couple rounds. But then you look at a team like Memphis and it's like the right trade, holy shit, could they be the favorites in the West? So here are the choices.

We can start with Toronto, Cleveland, Memphis, Boston, Charlotte, Dallas, Utah, Milwaukee, or Chicago. Who do you want to start with? I mean, let's start with Memphis because as you said, they are the team that could make a big swing if they really wanted to. Who do you want to start with? They, in some ways, have the most capacity to make a trade and the least need to force anything right now. Yeah. And the other piece is, do you want to mess with what you have? I think if you're going just by identity in the league right now, I think only three teams probably have a legitimate identity, right? Golden State, Phoenix, and Memphis.

I don't know if anyone in the East, now Milwaukee will have an identity eventually, but the fact that Lopez has been out all year and they're just not as malleable as they were last year. So I'm not sure they have, Chicago's been ravaged by injuries. Brooklyn, God only knows what's happening. Philly's being held hostage by this Simmons thing. I don't know if anyone in the East has an identity. I think Memphis does.

And I would be really, really nervous to tinker with it if I was them. But as you said, they have three first-round picks. They have Zaire Williams, who I think has a lot of asset potential.

He's pretty good this season. I think better than some of the draft experts thought. They also can patch together all kinds of traits. They have $25 million in expirings. They have Steven Adams, who makes like $17 million.

So they're basically any kind of trade you want, they can accommodate it. The question is, will they? I mean, I think we're probably in agreement on what they need, right? Which is a shot creator who can work alongside Ja, and preferably one who's like a small forward, big wing type.

Like that's the hole in their roster, right? I mean, all right, Sabonis. Okay. If you could package all of their stuff and just put Sabonis on this team, Yep. is that somebody who could play crunch time for them? Could they put him next to Triple J

and John Morant in two wings? And is that team even harder to stop than it is now? So bonus to me is the upside upside move and his contract's pretty reasonable, right? He's only making like 23. They could either put Adams in the trade with an expiring. They could just throw expirings in there and they have all these picks. They have their own pick. They have Utah's pick, which, you know, normally you would say that's going to be 27th, but who knows? Utah has the arrows pointed down for them. That pick could be like 20th.

And then they have the Lakers pick, which is a wildcard pick. So if you're Indiana and you're tanking anyway, you want Sabonis off your team and you want a huge package for him if you're trading him and you can get three first rounders back and Zaire Williams and Adams, I don't know. You would have my attention, right? I think what hits on the Sabonis idea is

you can get some of the shot creation you need for your half-court offense, but you're not totally giving up the rebounding that makes them so good, right? Like, this is right now kind of an okay first-chance offense, but an amazing second-chance offense. Like, Steven Adams' offensive rebounding has been crucial for them.

So if they can get a player with more ball skills and more shot creation in the Adams slot, they can also, you know, hold up as a rebounder. That would be huge. And at the same time with Sabonis,

you're still allowing yourself minutes to play Jackson at the five with Brandon Clark, which has been such an effective combination for them. I could see that working. The question, as always, was a bonus, and particularly in the Grizzlies position is, is this the chance or do you wait? Because they have a lot of young players. They have these picks that they probably need to redeem sooner than later, but they can play their options here. They could wait till the draft. They could wait till the offseason to make

whatever their push-in move is. But right now, their roster is good enough to justify here. They could wait till the draft. They could wait till the offseason to make whatever their push-in move is. But right now, their roster is good enough to justify it. They are good enough to justify taking some kind of leap forward. Yeah, or you could say, let's just see how it plays out this year. And we know heading into this summer,

we're losing some contracts. Adams becomes an expiring. We'll have three picks in the draft and maybe that's when we upgrade. I was thinking, if it's not Sabonis, because Sabonis is the only one that makes sense to me, but the other spot you could argue that they

could upgrade is the Kyle Anderson spot, right? Sure. I think we all like Kyle Anderson, but I also think could they get a better player at that spot? He's making nine, but you could package some contracts together. You could kind of move pretty quickly into the Harrison Barnes, Marcus

Morris range with that, right? If you're the Clippers, you could get out of Marcus Morris' contract and you're not going to compete for the title this year anyway. Maybe you pick up a pick. You don't have any picks. You don't really have that much of incentive to tank because OKC's getting your pick, but on the other hand,

you don't really have an incentive to just keep an expensive rosterC's getting your pick. But on the other hand, you don't really have an incentive to just keep an expensive roster yet either. So that's one. And then the Barnes would be another one. And then the wild card to me is, would they get frisky and think about Marcus Smart? And would they have the type of stuff that Boston would even be interested in?

But Marcus Smart, it's hard to imagine a better team for him than Memphis. And just throwing him into that attack dog team they have of just bullies, which I love, over and over again. You see, they have such swagger and he would fit right in with that. I think Smart's going to come up like 10 times in this conversation for various teams, for various reasons. And for good reason, Just a really valuable player for a lot of different contexts. I think the Kyle Anderson spot, though, is the kind of spot I would

hesitate to upgrade if I were the Grizzlies, for exactly the reasons we've laid out. The vibes are so good, and the balance is so delicate. And Kyle Anderson, specifically, is a guy who does not need to shoot. He is perfectly happy facilitating and setting up other guys and

playing more of a supplementary role. You plug Marcus Morris in there. Some nights, Marcus Morris is going to take 15 shots when you want him to take eight. It's just the reality of who he is as a player. And are you willing to risk tipping that balance for what might be a marginal upgrade on the second unit of your team? Well, we've reached part of the podcast where I compare somebody to the Boston Celtics. They remind me a little bit of, they're in a gravy situation right now, right? Where the Celtics were in 16 and 17, when they had all these picks, they were heading in a really good direction. Everybody liked the nucleus of the team and the coach. And the question became, can we really win the title

with what we have if we made one move? If you got Paul George, Kawhi, whoever, or are we in the gravy point of this whole run where it's like, this is awesome. We're in the playoffs. Oh, we might make round three. This is great. I think this is a gravy year for Memphis. I would be really hesitant to mess with it. And I think they can still accomplish a lot of this in the summer. But this is the year where you get, really, Morant and Triple J and Bane and Brooks, you get them real playoff games this year.

Where could they go one round, two rounds, three rounds? Could they make the finals? I wouldn't mess with it unless I could get Sabonis. If Sabonis is on the table, that's a different story because now I can win the finals with him. I could. I could compete against Golden State and Phoenix with him. They would be really good. Yeah. All right. Next team. Cleveland. This one's a little easier. They need some sort of guard creator, potentially two, right? They need a shooter.

They've been ravaged by injuries. They've been able to hold on. Love, I think they keep, and he's too expensive anyway. Rubio is an expiring at 17.8 and he's hurt. So he's the perfect person to package. Sexton, 6.3. Seems like they want to keep him. Who knows? Keeping him and paying him are two very different things. Right. Or he's a sign and trade possibility this summer. Who knows? The targets I think would be, and tell me if I leave anything out, Eric Gordon, we've talked about before, is the most obvious perfect fit. I think he's like 17 and 18 million. Fits perfectly with Rubio. Throw a pick back. You're good to go. Dennis Schroeder,

they could take a flyer on for six million pretty easily accommodate him in some way Gary Harris I'm not crazy about Karis LeVert I'm not crazy about Ball Stopper

I'd be hesitant to do that and then the upside guy is CJ McCollum if they wanted to get super frisky because they could put Rubio

Sexton would have to be in that. They could package the contracts, throw a pick. And you're doing that if you have a chance to win the East. I mean, my Celtic fan text thread yesterday, we're texting that the Celtics 538 was giving them as good of a chance to make the finals as the Warriors because the East is that much of a disaster. So if you're Cleveland, like, all right, if we have CJ McCollum, could Warriors because the East is that much of a disaster. So if you're Cleveland, like, all right, if we have CJ McCollum, could we win the East? It's not inconceivable. So what do you see from them? I like kind of the Gordon and the shape of that kind of move for them more so than a bigger swing like McCollum. And McCollum just kind of locks you in salary wise, touches

wise. It makes you be a certain kind of team with two small guards that yeah if they if they can avoid it they could have such incredible length with mobley at the four and alan at the five if they can just get a reasonably sized two guard for their long-term future that's easier said than done obviously and and really they're in a position like a lot of these teams or what they really need is the ability to consolidate two of their players' skill sets into one. Like if Colin Sexton and Isaac Okoro were the same player and that guy was 6'4", 6'5", he'd be amazing. That'd be exactly what they need.

Yeah. But obviously Sexton's out. Okoro is very limited offensively. I don't know. I mean, I do like the scoring wing idea. One name that we haven't gotten to yet that I will try to throw into all these conversations, if the Blazers allow it, is Norman Powell. That's a guy who I think

could fit so many different teams, knock down three-point shooter, guards bigger than he is. We saw him guard Michael Porter Jr., for example, in the playoffs pretty effectively for stretches. I could see a guy like that plugging in, but it would require Portland reaching for that big

red blow-it-all-up button that every team in the league has been waiting for them to press. And so far, they can get something for him. Yeah. Dame, who knows? And then CJ, who knows? And then Covington's an expiring, but at this point, I think people have looked at him for a long time. And then they have Nance. I mean, they conceivably

could make five trades and completely and become OKC overnight if they actually wanted to. If I'm Cleveland, I'm trying to figure out, can I get a guy who can play crunch time

for me in a playoff series? And I think that spot is the two guard next to Darius Garland. So if like Gordon's a great example, right? Gordon's been in a ton of big games. Yep. I actually think he's a little underrated, especially because, you know, he was in a weird situation with Houston where I think he could have had the

ball more and been a little more of a creator than he was. So you think like Garland, Gordon, Okoro, and the two big guys, and then you could go super big with Markkinen if you want. That makes sense to me. And that's a low risk. If I were them, I would trade their first and whatever else it took, because I think it's important for these guys to be in a playoff series. I've said this for years. I think the playoff reps are so good. Even Memphis in those play-in games last year, it really helps to be on that different stage.

And I would like to see that team in that stage. Well, Cleveland's 31 and 21. They're in the fifth spot. They're not that far away from the Woodson. So you're fascinated by Toronto. And I am too. Toronto is suddenly 26-23. I'm not sure how.

I don't really understand what's going on at the center-slash-rimstopper position at all for this team. But has it really mattered? They have some trade chips. They have Dragic at 19.4. They have Boucher at 19.4. Um, the Boucher at, uh, 7.0. So that adds up to 26. I think Siakam's off the table with how he's playing, right?

You agree with that? Yeah. And all the latest intel, you know, Michael Grange had a report that basically they're quote unquote core guys. So Siakam, Van Vliet, Ananobi, Scottie Barnes, all off the table. So we're really looking at, as you said, Dragic, some supplementary pieces,

maybe like a Malachi Flynn here and there or some picks. That's what they're playing with here. And I think there's room enough within that combination of stuff to get something starting with, as you mentioned up top, getting something of value

for Goran Dragic, who, as far as I can tell, is just chilling down in Miami, having a great time. I don't understand that at all. And also, this team is good. Like, why wouldn't you? I hate when guys do this.

I didn't like what Inguidala did in Memphis either. So I think Sabonis is off the table for them because you just laid out their top four. I don't think they're touching. No. Quinn Capella, I'm not sure when he can get traded, but the way Okonkwo is playing for Atlanta I wonder if he's in play now for somebody

I know they just gave him an extension but if I'm them with how Capella's played this year I just wonder if he's in play who knows Nurkic is definitely in play Miles Turner who has an injured foot right now but people think he'll be back after the All-Star break

he's in play and then you move kind of to that Kelly Olenek range, which I think he's worth mentioning. This is the kind of guy who in a playoff series would be out there in crunch time for Toronto, Kelly Olenek. And you could get away with it because you're so good defensively in all these other spots. I think you can hide him at least a little bit, but they're going to do something. I can't imagine they sit this out because I think this is another team weirdly has an identity, right?

Whatever it is, I kind of like watching it. It's weird. They just have this interchangeability and these athletes and kind of a swagger to them that's bizarre. I don't know how to put it into words, but I think we see the same thing. Well, I think there's a range of centers

there that we glossed past a little bit, which is the Jonas Valanciunas. I had him. No, I forgot to mention him. I had him. Who was the other one? Jakob Pertl as well, if San Antonio is ready to make some changes. Oddly enough, two former Raptors who could fit right back in with this team,

give them the rim protection they need, the defensive rebounding they need. Man, that's Raptors who could fit right back in with this team, give them the rim protection, rim protection they need, the defensive rebounding they need. Man, that's a team that needs rebounding help in such a big way. But that's the trade-off of playing so small. Playing Siakam at the five and Barnes at the four, they have these incredible ball skills,

one to five, but they're trading some of that size. They're trading some of their ability to protect the rim, their ability to finish out possessions. Can they bridge that divide is the big question for the Raptors without giving up that identity, without giving up what makes them so weird and so fun and in some ways so effective against so many teams. Yeah, the thing with them, the league is so weird these days where, you know, I think

it was easier a few years ago. Now you're going to have games where you kind of have to have a center, right? You're playing Philly. That Siakam at the five isn't working in that game. I think there's like six, seven matchups now within the league, even in now that Davis is back for the Lakers where you go through and you're like,

that's just not going to work against that team. Toronto against Cleveland would break my brain if that was a playoff series. I don't know what would happen. I don't know who the advantage would be for that. But yeah, I didn't know what to do with Valanchinus because there were reports the last week that New Orleans was actually a buyer, not a seller,

which makes no sense to me. We are in a situation with that team where the GM is in battle, to say the least, and might be looking at it like, well, why would I be a seller? I'm probably getting fired after the season anyway. So maybe I'll make a run and try to make some noise in the playing game. And maybe Zion comes back. Maybe there's some path to us being good. But yeah, Jonas is somebody, you know, just feels like he should be in the playoffs for somebody. And his contract's pretty

reasonable, right? You can put together a couple of deals and try to get them. So who knows? So you think Toronto is a buyer or you think they just kind of chug along? I think they're a buyer. I think they have enough options on the table that they could get into the mix on some of this stuff. But the trick with Toronto and in some ways the trick with Memphis, those teams have been so good at drafting. The value of a first round pick to them is probably greater than whatever it'll be to the team they trade it to. So I could understand if you're Toronto, if you're Memphis clutching onto those things saying, look

we could get a Delano Banton with a second round pick and that guy can be a rotation player for us why am I trading away a first that could be 20 to 30? Well, we'll see what happens. Alright, we're going to take a quick break. More teams to cover. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance.

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and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. All right, coming back. My weird team, the Celtics. On another three-game winning streak. Sign up now. Just search Movember. All right, coming back. My weird team, the Celtics. On another three-game winning streak.

We're taping this in the morning on Thursday. Another three. The Celtics are ripping off three-game winning streaks left and right. Last night, I watched with my dad. My dad's in town. And it was one of the more encouraging Celtics games. It had all the makings of the game they've lost 15 times this year, where they had the lead, they're in control,

a couple dumb things happen and then they blew it late. But this time they didn't blow it. And Udoka has done a couple things that I'm not positive I agree with, but I understand why he's doing it. They have an eight-man rotation now.

Aaron Neesmith, Peyton Pritchard, Romeo Lankford, no longer play. Jason Richardson playing more. Schroeder is now coming off the bench. And I think he's just like, look, this is what we're doing. Nothing else has worked.

Let's roll with our eight guys. I thought they were going to be a seller. We mentioned Smart before. I thought for sure Smart, definitely Richardson. Richardson was playing well this year. And I've even warmed up to him a tiny bit. My dad loves him. I was shocked. But he's like $11 million, $12 million for this year, next year. And is like the perfect guy for a team like the Jazz. We'll talk about them in a second. know what they do because they have these three young guys that I don't know what their value is. I still feel like Jalen Brunson would be the guy that would get their attention. But if you're Dallas, how do you trade him? You're playing really well. You're in a West where you have a chance to get the fourth seed. So I don't really know what the trade is for them. I wrote down Aaron Gordon, Sabonis as a wild card if they wanted to get really crazy and

get Time Lord and Marcus Smart in there and just really make a run. And then Halliburton, I know they've liked for a while. And just in case, Sacramento, you never know with them. Anybody else I'm missing? I mean, to me, their need is still organization. It's not even a good point guard. It's a guy who organizes their offense. And that's where Smart of late has been so valuable. It's just getting the ball to the right places. They're trusting him to do a little bit more to the point where if you're Boston, I'm not sure you can afford to give up Marcus Smart with the way he's playing for you offensively right now and the role he's filling there unless you're getting a guy you know can do that. That's where Jalen Brunson gets really interesting. Maybe you could talk yourself into Derek White if he's available from San Antonio.

I could see that fit being okay. Other than that, and this is kind of an interesting side effect of the way that position has evolved, is there are a lot of good guards in the league right now. There are a lot of guards who are available right now. But how many of them really specialize in getting an offense into its stuff?

That's just kind of a skill set of a bygone era in a lot of ways, that kind of like game management mentality. But not just being a pass-first player, getting the ball to the players who need touches, getting you through your possessions, getting you through your priorities. There aren't a lot of guards available

who do that stuff other than Jalen Brunson. And at times, Marcus Smart is pretty good at that. It's not always there for him, but I think he's better than what a lot of the market would offer you. I was looking at Utah pretty hard and Mike Conley and trying to figure out if there was a Boston-Utah thing that could work there. I don't think they would punt on Conley.

He's pretty crucial to them, especially with Ingles out. Yeah, that's where I landed. But first I was like, all right, smart Conley. How does this work? If those were the two principles and we put some more stuff, maybe Richardson's in there too.

Maybe it's smart Richardson for Conley, something else. Utah's way over the tax. And I think I'll be interested to see what they do because that's a team that could also just send Joe Angles to OKC

because he's out for the year and offer OKC $3 million and removing the protections of some pick or sending a future pick or whatever. But I don't think they want to pay the tax that the team they have. But yeah, I was trying to figure out because Conley is the type of guy

that would make a ton of sense for the Celtics. And if you're Utah, and you can't really win with the team you have right now, is it worth using Conley and maybe even the Ingles contract to try to throw stuff together? I think Utah's kind of stuck with what they have, though, because I'm with you.

I think Conley's too crucial for them, and they'd be too afraid to do that. But you could argue, well, then Mitchell would have that you basically just steer the offense to Mitchell and try to build a different team. With the Celtics, I think Smart has to

be in the Brunson trade. And that's one that Smart would be at the top of your wish list if you're Dallas, too. That's exactly the kind of guard you want to play with Luka. So that trade would look like... I mean, Brunson's making less than $2 million a year, but he has an extension coming. Four for $55 million. Dallas, that's the most they could offer.

Celtics could give him four for $80 million. If it was smart for Brunson and Dwight Powell, that actually works under the cap, that gets the Celtics under the luxury tax for this season, which is one of their goals, regardless of how this goes. They're pretty close now. And then if you're Dallas, did you upgrade your team? Is Jalen Brunson to Marcus Smart, does that make you better

or are you going sideways? What's your opinion on that? I think it makes you better in the ways you need to be better, oddly enough. Jalen Brunson, I think, is going to be a pretty valuable player, not just financially, but for the Mavs or whoever he plays for. He's just a really good shot creator, really capable guy in terms of driving to the basket, generating angles. But what the Mavericks weirdly kind of need, and I say this for a team that their defense is further along than their offenses right now, statistically speaking, but they really need a long-term fit next to Lney-Smith, bless him, who's just overtaxed and overstretched in his role can do. And Marcus Smart could be that guy for them. So

I think he could fit what they need a little bit more cleanly than Brunson does. The problem with Dallas is they're one of those teams, I would never do this if I was a GM, these crazy protections that roll over over the course of four years, you're paralyzed by just having one pick like that, where it's like, well, we have trouble. We get this. And I think they're one of those teams, right? Where it's like, well, we, we could trade our first, but then we'd have to waive the, and it just becomes like a quagmire. But fundamentally, I guess the question for me as a Celtics fan is, is Jalen Brunson paying him four for 80 after this year, are we in a better spot than we are with Marcus Smart?

And it's tough. Marcus, you know, I, he has a lot of love in Boston. We've been with him a while. We've probably been watching him too long. You can point out all his warts at this point. I'm with you. I like the way he's played offensively, last couple of weeks, but we've seen this from him a couple times and then he'll revert back into the other Marcus, which is not my favorite Marcus, but the Brunson thing, I think he's one of the highest upside trade assets in the league right now, because it's so hard to see what he is next to Lucauka when Luka has the ball as much as he's had. But we've seen these sample sizes now. And it's the same thing with Halliburton without Fox.

We've seen these sample sizes when they haven't had the guy infringing on their usage rate where something really good is happening. And I think Brunson, to me, is a playoff point guard. And whether Dallas realizes that or not, I just think we've, I said this last week, we've seen this situation before with OKC and Harden, where when the guy knows he can make more money outside the team he's on, that always becomes dangerous. OKC fundamentally could only

go to four for 60 for Harden, but other teams could go five for 85. And that was always lingering over that whole thing. And with the Brunson thing, he can just make more money on another team. He'll be able to make the same money as a free agent if he resigns. It's just the extension, right? That's kind of underserving him. But that's honestly the big question with Brunson, whether we're trading him to the Celtics, whether we're trading him to any team, is he going to have a pleasant enough experience playing for that team over the next couple of months that he's going to want to resign there? And that's where my question would be with Boston. And the vibes in Boston are good right now. As you said,

rolling off three game win streaks. Are you confident enough in the culture and the architecture of your team that an unrestricted free agent who could sign anywhere and is going to have lots of offers, is he going to want to come back? That would be the question too, if you're giving up someone like Smart. They have two of the most polarizing Celtics that we've had in a while in terms of just people in my life. I have friends that love Time Lord and just think like, he is untouchable. He's our third guy. And I'm just like, I don't get it. I get it. I see it. There's potential. You catch him for two straight weeks, but I'm dubious that he could stay in the court.

And I just think smart teams go at him. Yesterday in the Charlotte game, he made the key block. He finally jumped out in time on a three. I was delighted. I felt like I was watching one of my kids. I'm like, oh, you did it. You jumped out on a three.

But look, my dad, we were driving home from the airport yesterday. We were talking about Sabonis because we both love Sabonis. And it was just like, if there's a way to end up with Jalen Brown, Jason Tatum, and Sabonis, I don't care who else is on the team right now. If it has to be Marcus Smart and Time Lord, and Neesmith has to be in there, whatever it is, I'm ready to do it. Because if I can get those three guys, I can build the rest of my team with those three guys.

I think all of them complement each other. I think Sabonis solves some of the creativity issues and some of the ball stagnation. Because the ball moves. I like the way he can set picks. He can run pick and rolls with them. He can initiate offense from the top of the key. And I i would just if i could get those three guys i'm good so i don't know maybe that's not enough for him i don't know how indiana is valuing him but um you know i guess we'll find out but i would say are you with me on that or no

i i like him i like him for their team i don't think they can get him. I don't think the pieces are there. God damn it. Well, I had... Maybe next year. I had OKC as a Sabonis destination. A redestination. A return home to OKC for Damanis Sabonis. Sell me on it.

I don't really know what OKC's strategy is with all these picks. But I do know I like some of their players. I like Giddy. I like Dort. Like SGA, obviously. I think they have some good role players. When you watch them, you're like,

oh, that guy's an eighth man in a playoff series. Oh, that guy's a ninth man. The center spot is where they can improve, right? And they're also under the salary floor. They can do a trade with Indiana where they could just take Sabonis and give them back Poku and 17 first-rounders, however you want to do it. And Indiana would just have a giant trade exception if they wanted to play it that way. But if I'm Indiana,

I'm trading Sabonis this week because I have a chance to be one of the six worst teams in the league, which is where I want to be. I'm trading Miles Turner too. I have other guys coming off, and I'm just blowing this up and grabbing as many picks as I can. And honestly, my motto is OKC because I'm in no man's land.

I got Carlisle. I have an inventive coach. He's there for a while. We can rebuild around the style he wants. And I would think about that. But I don't have any feel for what OKC wants to do. Do you? No.

They're pretty inscrutable in terms of when they think will be their time to push all this stuff in. It's really hard to read what their view of that long game and that timing looks like. But, I mean, the reporting out of Indiana is that the Pacers want a Vucevic kind of return for Sabonis. If any team is prepared and equipped to do that,

it would be the Thunder. So I can see it from that perspective. And you can see it from, as we were talking about with Tatum and Brown, as we'll talk about with Beal or other teams that could potentially acquire Sabonis. He's kind of the guy you want next to your combo guard star.

Yeah. Because of the facilitating, because he can make those guys better offensively by taking some of the usage from them, but not siloing them out of the offense. He can interact with other stars really effectively.

So I think that's where I could see the case building for him on a team like the Thunder, but they would have to be ready to be are we ready as an organization if you're the Thunder to push forward and be a playoff contender next season, basically, is the argument you would be making if you acquire a player

like that. Well, what the fuck are they waiting for? I don't understand it. It's just going to be at some point, it's too going to be, at some point, it's too many picks and too many young guys. Yeah. And you're testing

the patience of your fans. Where, you know, it's worked out so far. Giddy, it was a great pick. I really like him.

Some of their, some of their other swings have worked. Poku did not work. I think trading the Shangoon pick, I still don't agree with. all right, next team, Dallas.

We mentioned them earlier. They're 29-23 now. They're in fifth place. They have Brunson at 1.8. They got Powell at 11-11. Beaubon and Burke added together is like 6.6. They have some smaller stuff they can do. Hardaway looks like he's out for the year

and has a terrible contract for a guy who's out for the year. Yeah. And has a terrible contract for a guy who's out for the year. I think he's an okay contract if he was playing. I had for them for targets, smart. This is a Miles Turner team to me, or like the Kelly Olenek type, where maybe not a first round pick, maybe it's a second rounder and something else,

or a young player Detroit would like. But that's really it. We could also see Dallas do nothing. And then Porzingis hangs over all of this because he's been good this year when he's

been out there. I think this has been the best version of him in Dallas and I think he's helped them defensively. But you could also say perfect time to trade

him right now. Like unload as the arrow's pointing up. Get rid of him. But what do you see them doing? They're a team that weirdly needs lots of things,

like lots of small holes they could upgrade or fill or just swap guys out, which makes them very difficult to read in terms of what their priorities would be at the deadline. I'm with you, though, on the smart idea. I'm just apparently this week finding every team I could potentially trade Lou Dort to. If I can pry him, apologies to everyone with the Thunder, but I know they love him.

But man, he would be great next to Luka. He would be great on so many of these potential playoff teams and contenders. Other than that, again, it's hard to find these guards who are just like perfect fits in that circumstance. Alonzo Ball type would be great. He's obviously spoken for, has been really effective for the Bulls. If we're just kind of throwing Kings guys out there, because as you mentioned,

who knows what's going to happen? I think Davion Mitchell would raise my eyebrows as a guy who could be like a stopper defender next to Luka. The shot's not there yet. It would be more of a long-term project. I'd make a call. You'd have to send him to rehab.

You'd have to send him to NBA rehab just to get the stink of the Kings off him for two weeks. You'd have to send him to Mexico or Malibu or somewhere and just have him be in the sunlight. Just remembering what it was like to be happy. He'll do the full quarantine treatment

and then get back out there and just bother the hell out of people on the ball. It's like COVID quarantine. You have Kings quarantine for two weeks. You just have to regroup. You know, you mentioned Dort. I thought this was the most intriguing Simmons idea of all the Simmons ideas for Philly.

It's basically just Dort for Simmons. You do whatever, because OKC is what? $20 million under the salary for it, but OKC can accommodate almost any kind of trade at this point. Whether it's like Dort and some picks for Simmons, right? And then you think if you're Darryl,

I'm off the Simmons contract. Now I just have to dump Tobias and I have my James Harden chance. I get Dort who helps me this year right now. Simmons isn't helping me at all. He's not going to play for us. The Ramona Shelburne piece yesterday was just insane. And I could get picks from OKC

that I could potentially use in other deals, either this week or this summer. But is that insane to think Dort, Simmons, and some OKC picks? I think lightly insane. I love Lou Dort. And what an outcome to this saga it would be if Daryl Moria said this whole time he wants a top 25, top 30 player,

and that guy is Lou Dort. What a world we would live in if that's the case. I'm looking. I'm on the trade machine right now. This trade is successful. Oh, I just ruined it. Look at this. Dort for Simmons.

Just that trade is successful. Successful can mean a lot of different things, though, Bill. But that would give Philly a $33 million trade exception. Not for nothing.

Not for nothing. Two picks? Like, I don't know it's not insane alright next team Charlotte 28-24 in the seventh spot

they need a center a better center yeah they have Plumlee at 9.2 they have PJ Washington at 4.2 who I like

good player I would try to keep him if I could then they have the Book Knight Book Knight Book Knight I would say Book keep him if I could. Then they have the Book Knight. Book Knight. I would say Book Knight because I have pronunciation dyslexia.

They have him as an asset. Their first rounder. Pretty easy Nurkic spot. And Miles Turner has been rumored for weeks, but Nurkic was the one I was thinking for them. Do you think Nurkic is athletic enough for them?

Because you got to run. You got to be up and down the court if you're going to be Charlotte's five. Maybe not. But would you rather have him or Miles Plumlee? Or Mason Plumlee? Which Plumlee do they have? They have Mason.

Mason. Mason Plumlee. I mean, I think if I'm Charlotte, I'm just putting myself in their headspace as a team that hasn't been in the playoffs since 2016. I think they're in a little bit of a don't move, don't break anything mentality.

They clearly need a five for sure. I think they absolutely would have been a Miles Turner candidate. He fits what they need pretty well. But once you get out of Miles Turner, I mean, I could see Christian Wood if you want to talk about that.

Rashawn Holmes, I don't know that he moves the needle for them that much over what they have because Mason Plumlee started the season pretty slow, was not very effective for the first six weeks or so, but it's kind of leveled out to be pretty decent for them. And so between him and PJ Washington,

they have enough five minutes, and Miles Bridges sometimes at the five, to be pretty good, to be a good playoff team. It's only going to get you so far. I don't know that Nurkic, with the compatibility of those styles, is going to get you any further. It's a fun Jalen Smith team.

Oh, interesting. I like that. Because, and I don't know what Phoenix would want back, but, you know, they made the catastrophic error. Maybe catastrophic's

too strong of a word, but idiotic, stupid. This is your bugaboo. This is your, you're stuck on Jalen Smith. No, here's the thing. If you're actually going to be a real contender

and you're going to have multiple max guys and you're in a big market and you're on a franchise and in a city that's never won a championship, you can't do stuff like not keep Jalen Smith's option for next year. You can't be like, oh, here's a way we can save a little money next year because that guy was a trade asset and you took him 10th in the lottery 18 months ago so you know jalen smith to charlotte and i don't know who goes back maybe maybe a pick that they can use for a different trade maybe it's a three-teamer maybe dennis schroeder you know we haven't talked about schroeder yet and forgot to mention him with the celtics but where has he had success in his career? With Chris Paul. Where was the one time

we saw him on a playoff team in a role that made sense where he didn't have the ball too much, his usage rate wasn't too high, and he felt additive? It was with Chris Paul. Now, you could say that about, what, 50 guys Chris Paul has played with at this point? 62 guys? I don't know. But Schroeder is not a point guard. He's a guy who weirdly needs to play off the ball even though he's six feet tall. But on the Phoenix team, kind of interesting. So if there was some sort of three-teamer where

Schroeder goes to Phoenix and Jalen Smith goes to Charlotte and then maybe Boston just gets off the tacks and gets like a second rounder, I could see that happening. When Phoenix kind of quietly could use some help shoring up its backup point guard spot.

I think for Phoenix, it's either another wing to just kind of plug into that mix who can spell you for spots, especially when Jay Crowder's shot isn't falling or it's going to be a backup point guard type position. I could see them getting into that mix,

especially because Schroeder's contract is pretty reasonable, pretty malleable. Yeah, he's $6 million for this year. Jalen Smith is $4.5 million. So that's going to work. And then Charlotte would have to do some expirings. But yeah, I thought that was a possibility. All right, we're taking one more break.

All right, let's move to the I have no fucking idea what's going to happen teams. My favorite. What do you do if you're Milwaukee? You clearly don't have the right team, but I also have no ability to really do anything. I've given up all my picks. Yeah. what do you do if you're Milwaukee? You clearly don't have the right team, but I also have no ability to really do anything. I've given up all my picks.

Yeah. I don't really have any assets that can be used in a trade. I have DiVincenzo's expiring contract and two years of Brooke Lopez, who's not, might not, we might not, doesn't sound like we're seeing him again this year. So I don't know what you'd do other than hope to get a buyout guy.

I actually think they sit this one out and then really hope for a buyout guy would be my guess. That seems reasonable for them, especially because of what their needs are. It's either they need another backup five, a guy who can fill some minutes, or if you're just going to commit to Giannis

playing a lot of those minutes, then you need kind of a stretchy four type a guy who can fill some minutes, or if you're just going to commit to Giannis playing a lot of those minutes, then you need kind of a stretchy four type who can plug in and give you some forward minutes instead. I mean, maybe call that Nick Batum. I mean, is Grant Williams available, do you think? Is he gettable? Wow. You know, a year ago and six months ago,

I would have been like, please take him. Now it's like, I don't know. He hits corner threes as well as anybody. I do think he's like a valuable role player in a playoff series now. I give him credit, man. He figured out. He's like, all right, here are my three skills. If I can make corner threes, now I'm somebody who can play in a playoff series. If I'm Milwaukee, I'm just thinking about Philly. How do I be filling a playoff series with what I have? And the answer is I don't have six fouls against a bead and some size and the ability to at least push him around a little bit. I don't have the guy. The guy was Brooke Lopez. I have no idea if he can come back or not.

It doesn't sound like he will. So ironically, Robin Lopez is sitting there for Orlando. Sure. And he's making like five mil, and maybe that's the outcome of this. Maybe they trade DiVincenzo for Robin Lopez, just straight up. Or he's a buyout guy. Or he's a buyout guy. Yeah, I think Lopez could be a buyout candidate for sure. Yeah. But yeah, so I don't know what they do. Chicago is confounding. Chicago is just losing dudes left and right. They've had the worst injury luck of anybody

in the entire league this year. Yeah. And you look at the standings and where's Chicago? Oh no, they're still the number one seed. So their team that has, basically that Derrick Jones is expiring at 9.7 and then the Patrick Williams card and they're sending out the signals,

we're not trading him, we would have to get something amazing. I really like Patrick Williams. And the question if you're Chicago is, can we make the finals if we put those two guys together and get somebody awesome? And I don't know the answer to that. What do you think?

I think the answer is probably no, just given who's out there, unless there's some candidate, some trade option that we're not thinking about. But in terms of the names that are out there and what you could reasonably get for a Patrick Williams-centric trade package, I don't see it. And I think, as you mentioned, their roster has been injured enough. They've had so many guys out. I could see them being in wait-and-see mode. And the mix of what they've had

has been so potent when their guys are healthy. I think they just kind of sit on it, wait for Pat Williams to get back next season, see how he fits into all of this. Maybe they make a move on the edges somehow, but I don't see anything significant for Chicago. What if Sacramento calls

and says, let's have the Harrison Barnes conversation? For who? We'll take Pat Williams back. Oh, no. Throw in the Jones expiring. Definitely not.

And now you have Harrison Barnes who can play crunch time in a playoff series for you. You do have Harrison Barnes. Are you guys trying to win the title? So you're out on that. I'm out on that. But bless Sacramento for trying.

You got to do your due diligence. That's the way it goes. So you want somebody a notch higher than Harrison Barnes? I think Pat Williams has the chance to be a low-level star.

I'm with you. If you're going to give that up, it's got to be a low-level star. I'm with you. If you're going to give that up, it's got to be a real deal lock this guy into the core of our team kind of player. I thought the Jeremy Grant conversation was pretty interesting just because of what Chicago's particular needs are.

I don't think he's good enough either. I'm not sure he's good enough either. I could see them just wrestling in their front office about it. There've got to be people in that building who are just sky high on what Williams could be. And we know who Jeremy Grant is. We know who he is on a bad team. We know who he is on a good team.

That's a really useful player. But is it useful enough to get you to the Eastern Conference Finals, much less to a championship? I don't know. So where they really need to be is flipping Jones into somebody better than Jones.

Yeah. Is that Josh Richardson? They're a little compromised with picks that they have to trade. Josh Richardson is playing well for the Celtics. So that's probably a no-go. I think they're more big-inclined than they are guard-inclined, if you're going to trade Jones.

They need length. They need a four. They need a real backup five. Those are kind of more of the needs for them, to me, than Richardson, who I think would be good, would be great for their pressure defense. But you kind of already have some of what he gives you between Ball and Caruso when everybody's

healthy. I would assume he's been so good for them. So a four who can also play five if you go a little small. Who is that? Those are tough guys to find these days. It's basically what they had with Thad Young, basically. Yeah. If the Raptors trade for another center,

could you get in on Chris Boucher to be that guy? Hmm. You know, stretch guy, you know, pretty good at covering

the perimeter for his size. You know, I don't see a lot of comparison between him and someone like Grant other than length, but they need length. They need length

at that spot. They need somebody who can fill those minutes capably, who can give them a little bit of stretch. I could see that or else you're getting into, as we've circled around with some of these other teams,

Kelly Olenek kind of territory, maybe Trey Lyles kind of territory, kicking the tires on some of these guys who are just kind of filling in on lottery teams. Maybe there's an answer there. I don't think it's a great one, but maybe that can fill you some minutes, at least for an early playoff round series.

Do you think they would do the Vucevic trade again if they had to do over on that? Do you get DeRozan if you don't have him, is the question. Probably not. And so then I think you have to do it. And that was kind of their thinking from the start, was we need to entice Zach Levine to stay.

We need to entice other players to come. And getting an all-star level big man is the way to do that. It's just unfortunate Vooch hasn't really lived up to his career, really. He's just having a down year in terms of shooting, really in terms of his entire offensive game right now. Yeah, I wonder him and Fournier.

Sometimes you could just put up stats on bad teams. Fournier has been rough. But when you're on a good team and you're not getting the same amount of touches, you know, can go a little bit sideways. It's funny though, like what you just laid out with the Vucevic trade. The Celtics did that with Ray Allen

when they traded the number five pick which became Jeff Green. I think Delonte West was in that trade. They traded for Ray Allen and it made no sense to me. I'm like, what the fuck is this? So we have Ray Allen is in his early 30s and Paul Pierce and nothing else.

Like, what are we doing? But Danny was smart enough to know if I do these two things, now I can get the third guy. And you're right. The Vucevic, there's a credibility that comes with it that allows you now.

We have this guy, now we have Zach Levine and Vucevic. Come on over. Now we could actually do something. It's weird that more teams don't try that. That's why with OKC with Sabonis, to me, that's an example of hey, look at our team. We have this guy and this guy

and this guy and this guy. It's hard to think two big moves away like that. You can think like the stepping stones to get the first star, but think about how do we get the second star and who's going to be the first guy that's attractive enough to play with to lure that second guy. That's some four-dimensional chess that I think is very tough to play

in a league where the players are constantly shifting around who's available, who's not, what they want, what they don't, what kind of situations they prefer. It's hard to read that stuff from afar. Have to bring them up. Lakers. Okay. What are they one move away from?

I honestly don't know. One move away from not having Russell Westbrook? There's that. What did you think of the Knicks scenario? KOC and I talked about Sunday. It was first discussed on Zach Lowe's podcast last week. But basically Westbrook for Fournier and Kemba and Burks. And the Knicks just get a nice dose of Russ.

Lakers get to turn him into a couple different players that maybe are easier to move this summer and in the meantime give them a little more flexibility. I watched them last night. They beat Portland. They ruined my same game parlay that I put up for FanDuel. Carmelo was like seven for nine from three and just had like once a month,

he's like the old guy in the gym who just gets high. But that's not sustainable. And Davis looks better than he has. He's played well. I don't see any scenario where they beat Phoenix in a playoff series with the team they have, which I think is how they should be thinking.

So I don't know what the one move away is other than hoping the Knicks take Westbrook on. That's a big if. I mean, if you're New York, I don't know how you look at your situation and diagnose it as saying, Russell Westbrook makes us better. Our problem is already that we can't get our bigs

out of Julius Randle's way to make our offense viable enough to win these games consistently. The balance between what they need defensively and what they need offensively is already so tough. Westbrook would be a big swing, for sure. And if you're the Lakers, I guess if you're the Lakers and you're thinking of this season only, what is our best chance to beat teams in the

playoffs? Maybe the answer is you slow play LeBron as long as you possibly can in the regular season, and you play him as much as you reasonably can in the playoffs and get everyone out of his way. And trading Westbrook would be a part of that. And trading him for role players, for guys who can hit shots.

I can see, I can see why they would talk themselves into something like that. I just don't see a lot of takers for Westbrook and his contract at this point in time. Yeah. So right now they're 25 and 27. I guess I'd want to know Kyle, turn the camera.

The Lakers are 25 and 27. I guess I'd want to know what is LeBron's motivation for this season? Is it a chance to win the title or is it a chance to bank some stats because he has a bunch of career stuff in play now, right? 40,000 points. I mean, he'd be,

he's almost about to become the first 30 K 10 K 10 kite guy we've ever had. I don't know if we'll ever see that again. Um, is does it, cause here's why I would go either way. If he's rushing to come back, he's rushing to come back because you know, he's, he's worried about, Oh, if I don't come back, we're going to follow the playoff race. They're not. They're a nine seed. They're four games ahead of Portland, who's the 10 seed. They're six games ahead of, or five and a half games ahead of New Orleans. Nobody's catching them.

They're going to be in the play-in tournament. And we know from two years ago when we had the bubble and he had all that time off and he was able to just do 10 weeks full throttle, that was way better for him. So from them, I'm almost looking at it like, what's more important to you, LeBron? Is it coming back and putting the stats up and making it all NBA again? Or is it this puncher's chance we might have for a title? I would argue they have no chance, which is why I would have them come back. But there is a case, just rest them into the play-in tournament. Well, I think the argument to play them is, yes, you're not going

to fall down, but you have the chance to move up. They could catch. They may not make it into the top eight or into the clear of the play-in tournament, into the top six, but they can get into that 7-8 range where hopefully they're playing one play-in game and getting in. They don't have to worry about running through this little mini gauntlet just to make the playoffs.

Yeah, that's fair. I think that's the argument to play him, but I think there's a lot of motivation for LeBron to come back and play and for him to make the Lakers as good as he possibly can beyond just can I get all NBA? Can I get these counting stats? Whatever it is. Primarily, he really vouched

for the idea that this could work, that Russ and him and AD could work. I'm sure he wants to prove himself right. He wants to prove that it can, that they can find that balance, that they could be a dangerous team. And you can't do that rolling through the rest of the regular season and then hoping it clicks in the playoffs.

You have to set a groundwork for it that is not there right now. Right. So even if he came back with 10 games left, yeah, I don't know how I'd play it. If I was him, I would care about the title. Yeah. And that would motivate all my things.

But I also don't think they have a chance to win the title this year. I don't, I think that team that they put together is basically broken and we didn't talk about Phoenix going state. I think those teams are set. I don't expect either team to do anything. I mean, we talked a little about Phoenix,

but I don't expect Golden State to do anything. I think, I think their big impetus, um, these next two months is just, how do we integrate Klay? How does everybody get the right amount of minutes? Could they try to tinker around with Kavon Looney

and Wiseman together for a center? Maybe, I don't know. But I don't think they're going to mess with what they have. I think they like the chemistry too much. You agree with that? You're in the Bay Area. The only thing would be with Draymond's health and his back. If they have a sense

that it's going to be hard for him to go all out the rest of the season, to play lots of minutes at five in the playoffs, that's where I could see them getting into the market for a big. And maybe it isn't even Wiseman or Looney. Maybe there's like a Moses Moody-based trade

to be had. Or, you know, flipping some of these to be had. Or, you know, trading, you know, flipping some of these role guys who are on, you know, not insignificant contracts and packaging them together to get a workable center to just plug some of those minutes. I think something like that could be in the cards, but primarily, they are who they are. They're already a really good team. They don't have a lot of incentive to move things around, even though they've been up and down, to say the least, lately.

They've struggled a bit and struggled to put things together offensively in a way that's been a little surprising. Yeah. I thought when Clay came back, I thought I would mess them up a little bit. Not his fault,

but just everyone's in a groove. Everyone's used to how many minutes. And all of a sudden, now you have to have 30 minutes for him. And that's going to... They'll get recalibrated. I would watch out for Robin Lopez with them because Kerr drafted him.

Good chemistry guy. Gets in, some size. And as we talked about earlier, seems like a bio guy. All right. We can hear Rob on the Ringer and Baez show. I look forward to seeing how many of these possible scenarios actually come true. This will be fun.

Good to see you. Likewise, Bill. Thanks. All right. My friend Mike Schur is here. He has a new book coming out called How to Be Perfect that is in bookstores and on online bookstores right now, correct? Correct.

Yes. As of January 25th. What's the book about? It's basically all of the ethics and moral philosophy that I read to make the good place, but presented conversationally and humorously instead of boringly and dryly. So it's like a person who understands this stuff to a limited extent, explaining it to you in a way that hopefully is entertaining and not boring. Well, there you go.

You can get it wherever you get your books, which I guess is not a bookstore these days. I don't know. I can't remember the last time I was in a bookstore. Who even knows? Who knows? Who knows anything? Just type it into the internet.

It's called How to Be Perfect. Type it into the internet and the internet will tell you where to get it. All right. What is not perfect is Major League Baseball and the Baseball Hall of Fame. Where do you want to start? Because we have no spring training and we have a Hall of Fame that's been basically destroyed. So you pick. Let's start with the league and this coming season, because that is a bigger concern to me than the Hall of Fame, which has always kind of been a mess. But I'm now officially worried about the season.

Are you worried? Because it feels like we're... Everybody keeps saying they'll get it done, they'll get it done. It's February 3rd and they're not close. It doesn't seem like. I mean, what have you heard? You're an insider. You're a sports insider.

What have you heard? I have not heard anything. And I think they've hidden behind football, the longer season, where it's just all of January got swallowed up by football. Right. Normally we would have had the Super Bowl on Sunday. Normally it would have been February 1st Super Bowl. All right, that's done. And everybody had been like, hey, when's baseball coming back? Nobody cares because football is now dragging out for two more weeks.

And then the NBA has been so many things happening with that. Yeah. And then on top now this week, we had the whole Brian Flores, that whole story, which swallowed up, you know, it's going to swap this whole week and it should, it's one of the most important football stories we've had.

So baseball just keeps nudging toward mid February before people like my dad are like, Hey, when's baseball coming back and realizing like, Oh, we can't play in our fantasy league. Yeah. The Red Sox might not be available for us on March 31st.

Like, I'm getting worried. Think about this too. This is an asterisk in this whole thing, but you know, the 17 game expansion of football is clearly a precursor to an 18 game expansion and eight teams in the playoffs. So just doing it slowly to get us used to it. When that happens,

they almost certainly also have to put a second rest week in because you can't play 18 games and have one off week. It's just impossible. And suddenly, instead of February 13th for the Super Bowl, it's February 27th. They're going to own all of February in a couple of years. Baseball will be even more marginalized. No one will even notice it's happening until May or June. And yet, the league has no sense of urgency.

It doesn't seem like. They don't seem to think like, oh, we're in an existential crisis moment here where if we don't get our act together and make this product both available to people and also a better run organization, no one's going to care at all. I mean, I just, I don't, if I were running baseball, I would be so worried right now. And they sure don't seem like they are. Yeah, and with that, what you just laid out with football, and you also have the NBA who's terrified of football.

Like you saw in November and December, they move inside the NBA, which has been on Thursday night for 20 plus years. And they're like, we're going to move this to Tuesday. It's like they basically retreated to another day. And if football keeps going all through February, I could see the NBA just completely blowing up their schedule and saying, let's just start in December and let's have the trade deadline be or late November, Thanksgiving. Let's have the trade deadline be basically first or second week

in March, right before March Madness. So we can at least try to grab those two, three weeks. And then March Madness comes in and baseball is just kicked to the curb, which I think for people like us, part of me feels like our generation's holding on to this world in which baseball still matters. And yet both of our kids are the same age. And we know from that generation, they're not sitting down and watching baseball games. So I don't know where that generation is 10 years from now with baseball. They're not going to care, I don't think.

Yeah. I mean, basketball used to announce itself at Christmas, but now Christmas is like, it's like week 15 or something. It's getting crushed. Yeah. So I don't, yeah, I can totally imagine basketball shifting later, especially if this mid-season tournament becomes anything, they might need to juggle it anyway.

But, but baseball is just nowhere's fill right now. They, it just feels like the, the, the issues they're fighting over are pretty basic, right? It's like,

how much do rookies get paid? How many years of team control do the clubs have? It's not arcane stuff. It's the same stuff they always fight over. And the idea that they didn't just get together and say, hey, we got to resolve this real fast. You want this, we want this. Let's meet exactly in the middle and move on and try to present peace. The one thing you can say about Bud Sie Selig is he presided over peace, labor peace for a long time. And now you have this, you have for the first time in a while,

the workforce being like, hey, you guys have been manipulating. Chris Bryant got held back in kindergarten. And everyone knew what was happening. And Theo Epstein had to come out and say, no, it's just about the right roster for the right... And everyone knows what you're doing. You're keeping him in the minors for a

month to get another year of control. They've now done that. Every guy on the Yankees, this is what drives me crazy. Every one of those guys is ARB4. Every one of them. Gliber Torres and even Luke Voigt. All those guys, they manipulated the service time to get an extra year of control,

which makes them more valuable in trades and it makes them able to... Aaron Judge isn't going to hit free agency until he's 31 or something. So it's like the players have a point here. It's like everyone is always looking at how are these greedy players trying to be even greedier. No, the players are right.

The management has been screwing them over and manipulating them in every way they could. And so whatever, just get over it. Concede on that stuff that you know you've been doing. And players don't demand 800 grand for a rookie year salary. Take 650 and let's play the game because otherwise you're just going to disappear. That's my fear. Yeah. How about just when you're a rookie,

you're a rookie and that's your first season? How hard is this? Why do we have service time? We're watching, I don't know, any of the rookies in the NBA right now. Nobody's like, I have the mobile service time. The Cavs wouldn't play him for the first month because they want to move his contract a year back.

Imagine if the Grizzlies had been able to put John Morant in the G League for a month and then they get an extra year of control. Imagine how crazy that would be. The NBA would go crazy with that. It's nuts. As usual, I feel like baseball's

role in my life really since 1994 was to just tell me It's nuts. And it's, as usual, it's just, I feel like baseball's role in my life, really since 1994, was to just tell me, fuck you. It is as many ways as it possibly could just to make me feel bad. They made the games longer. They've screwed up the salary stuff. They've gone on strike.

They canceled a World Series. They just have complete inequity between the big markets and the smaller markets. Then they fix that. But then the big markets were like, we're making so much money, we'll just trade Mookie Betts. And our fans will accept it because we've done right

by them in the past. It's just over. I know where we see this stuff pretty similarly. There's also the let's take the like, let's take the Braves out of Atlanta and move them to the suburbs even if no one wants us to

just because we think there are too many black people in the stands. And the answer is always like, they'll get over it. Baseball's attitude is like, they'll get over it. I mean, to be fair, that's every league's. That's the NFL's attitude too

about most of the stuff. It's like, yeah, they'll come back. The problem is that in baseball, people aren't coming back. The dwindling numbers of people, the increasing median age of the baseball viewer. I mean, I'm 46 years old. I'm the youngest person I know who regularly

watches baseball, except for maybe my kid. So I just feel like their attitude of it'll be fine, they'll come back isn't true anymore and they don't realize it. And that's a problem. Wait, is your kid actually watching baseball like during the week

and stuff? He's sitting in front of a television watching like the sixth inning of a game? You know, a couple years ago, yes. These days, you know, he's in middle school now as is your son. And so now it's like they're texting with their friends and FaceTiming and they're on TikTok. And then he goes outside and shoots baskets in the backyard.

He's not doing the thing that I did when I was his age. If there was a game on when we were kids, you sat and you watched the whole thing. You sat dutifully through the commercials. What else were we going to do though? There was nothing else to do. Nothing happening. That's the problem. Is that that's not the case for our kids.

They have 8 million things that they want to do that are fun and interesting and create dopamine in their brains. So they're not going to sit there and watch a Brewers-Cubs game in April. It's just not going to happen. And then there's the Hall of Fame, which we should also talk about,

which is also a mess. Yeah, let's go to that. I had one last point. Yeah. I felt like last year, and you know this because we were on a text thread that went crazy.

I felt like I liked baseball as much as I had in a long time last year. And I don't know whether it's at the point in my life, but I just really enjoyed the season. I think a lot of it had to do with I think our Red Sox team was pretty endearing, both Red Sox fans.

So I don't feel, I'm not the guy who's like, this sucks. This part of my life's over. I still like baseball. I don't know if it's our generation and up, basically. You're a little younger than me, but like basically 40 years old and up. And then under 40, it's just going to continue to crater. I don't know how it plays out, but the hall of fame,

this is another thing where this was such a big part of our life as baseball fans, this hall that made sense. And we understood the parameters and it really meant something when you made it. And then as always with this stuff, PDs just PDs, first of all,

made it impossible to figure out what the records were and how to compare things. I know we have some stats like war and certain things, but I don't know how you look at Barry Bonds' stats from 1999 to 2005 and figure out how to compare that to anything, much less some of the other stuff we had. But then on top of it, the moralism, which I've been writing about this. I wrote a column, I think in 06, 07 about how stupid it was that Mark McGuire wasn't gonna be in the Hall of Fame

because I always thought the point of the Hall of Fame was it's a museum. It captures all the people that mattered in baseball. And you can't tell me that Barry Bonds and McGuire and Clemens and all these dudes, like they mattered. They were the biggest stars we had. I never felt the need to get moral about it because just put it on the plaque, put them

in their own room. But if the goal is you and I to take our sons to the Hall of Fame, to not have certain people in the Hall of Fame to me seems insane. Where do you stand on this? Oh, exactly in the same place. And I'll say a couple of things about this. First of all, and everyone always points this out whenever this debate comes up, there are already terrible people in the Hall of Fame. Lots of them. So many of them. Basically, baseball was segregated not by rule. There was no law

that said no black people allowed. It was just a sort of gentleman's agreement. And one of the gentlemen who formed the agreement was Cap Anson, who was just like, we should never let black people in. Everyone was like, you're right, Cap Anson. Cap Anson's in the Hall of Fame. And by the way, it's now 2022. No one cares about Cap Anson. No one cares. People care about Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens and Gary Sheffield and Manny Ramirez and Sammy Sosa and Mark McGuire. And if the idea of the museum is to tell the story of baseball,

okay, great. Tell the story. On Cap Anson's plaque, write a little note that says, by the way, this is one of the guys who literally said no black people should be allowed. He was a great player. And he, this is not, it's like the time, you know what I always think of as the time man of the year or person of the guys who literally said no black people should be allowed. He was a great player. And he, he,

this is not, it's like the time. You know what I always think of as the time man of the year or person of the year. Hitler was the time man of the year one year, because the point isn't who's the best nicest person. The point is who was the person whose presence in the universe was the most important or noteworthy.

And in 19, whatever it was 40, I think, or 39 or 38, it was Adolf Hitler. They weren't endorsing him as a dude. They were saying, this guy mattered in the world and in a horrible... In the worst possible way.

In literally maybe the worst way that anyone has ever mattered. But that's what that award or whatever you want to call it is designed to do. So if the point of the museum is simply to tell the story, then you got to tell the whole story. You got to tell the whole story of steroids. You can't ignore it.

You have to tell the story of the cream and the clear and of Alex Rodriguez down in Miami buying stuff in a paper bag. You got to tell the whole deal. And the problem with it, in my mind, has always been that MLB and the museum are related. They're cousins, but they're not the same organization. It was started by a dude who liked baseball and was like, hey, we should have a museum to write about baseball and celebrate the history of baseball. So there's this weird alliance where it's not actually run by the league. The people who vote on it are writers. It's not MLB officials or ex-players

or anything. It's the guys who cover the game. And so it's just this odd thing where the rules are so unclear. There's a morals clause in the voting. But again, Rogers Hornsby and Cap Anson and all these guys. Ty Cobb, yeah,

they're all in. So that's clearly been ignored. Isn't Tom Yockey in there? It's a good question. I don't know. Well, if he's in there,

that's somebody. There you go. It's like, get Jackie Robinson off the field. Not a great guy. Yeah. So it's just,

I think you're right. I have a pitch. So tell me what you think of this because I was talking about this with Joe Posnanski. right. I have a pitch. So tell me what you think of this. Because I was talking about this with Joe Posnanski. He and I do a podcast called The Pazcast for Metal Ark. And here's my pitch. It wasn't... I don't even know if it was actually my idea,

but I believe it's a good idea. If you are in that club, the Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Gary Sheffield, Manny Ramirez, Sammy Sosa, Mark McGuire club of guys who did something to kind of cheat or embarrass the game. My pitch is, instead of having to wait five years after you retire,

it's a 10-year penalty. You have to wait 15 years. And then after 15 years, you essentially remove the morals clause from the voting. And you just say, you're only voting on the merits of their on-field accomplishments. Now, that would require the writers to actually do that. It would require that you can't look inside a person's brain.

You don't know what they're thinking about or what they're not. But at least it would be like a prison sentence. And then it's like, okay, now you've served your time. And you've gotten out and you are treated like anybody else. What do you think of that idea? I was thinking you can go further. You can't get in until you're dead. You don't get to enjoy the ceremony.

When you're dead, we'll let you in. But what if you... Let's imagine that something like what I'm proposing happens, right? I would say 15-year prison sentence. I like it though. I like the idea though. I like the general sentiment. Let would say 15-year prison sentence. I like it though. I like the idea though. I like the general sentiment.

Let's say 15-year prison sentence and then you get Mark McGuire, 65-year-old, 70-year-old Mark McGuire gets in. And he gets up there and he says, taking steroids was the biggest mistake I ever made. And I regret it. And I'm so sorry to the people I hurt. And I'm sorry to the fans

of St. Louis., which by the way, some of those guys always wanted to say, and just the union or their PR guys or whatever, we're telling them they shouldn't. But you could tell McGuire and Jason Giambi, remember that weird press conference Giambi had where he just kept saying, I'm sorry. And they were like, what are you sorry for?

And he's like, I'm not going to get into what I'm sorry. I'm just generally sorry. Just know that I'm sorry. And they were like, what are you sorry for? And he's like, I'm not going to get into what I'm sorry. I'm just generally sorry. Just know that I'm sorry. So I think that would be, to some degree, healing. If these guys served their time, got in, and then were allowed to just talk about it where it wouldn't affect them. And in part, I think they haven't apologized or come totally clean because they were worried that it would affect whether they got into the Hall of Fame or not. So there needs to be a rule.

No one has ever come up with the rule for how we do this. And as a result, it's a mess. And baseball is just covering its eyes with its hands and hoping that it all goes away. I like everything about this idea except for one thing. So how do you explain the guy that we don't know for sure if anything bad happened with them or not? Now, the non-Red Sox fans would default to our guy, David Ortiz for this. That man is a saint and I will not hear a single word said against him.

Yeah. Also, where's your proof? He ended up in some weird New York Times thing that said he took something, but could it have been Sudafed? Yeah. We still don't know what it was. And also everything was legal 2004 and earlier. And I've just never understood the Ortiz thing.

It's become this twisted. It reminds me of a lot of the stuff that happens like in the actual country where just a piece of a fact gets twisted and then becomes like a different fact, reality to people. I think that, yeah. People think like he was becomes like a different fact reality to people. People think like he was in like a biogenesis clinic and got caught.

It's like that's not what happened. And obviously we are biased in his favor. However, I feel the same way about anyone who is in that leaked Mitchell report thing, which is like for two reasons. One, it was leaked illegally.

And I don't think that should be held against anybody. But way more importantly, there were no rules. There was no testing regimen. There was no actual rule for what you should do or not do in baseball. There was a vague rule about competitive whatever they called it. But everybody was ignoring that. And just because everybody's doing it doesn't make it right. I'm just saying that the difference between someone like Bonds, about whom there was an entire book written,

where we know exactly what he did and when he did it, where he bought it, how he went about it, all that stuff. There's a difference between that and someone who showed up on the Mitchell Report test,

which was supposed to be anonymous, and which we still don't to this day even know what they were testing. We don't know if it was like Ritalin. We literally don't know what it was because whatever was on that list, it was like, now we sound like apologists, but I'm telling you, go research this, anyone who's listening. There was like a hundred different things that qualified for, did you take any of these things? So we don't know what it was. We don't know. It was. We don't know. It was also illegal to even share it.

And by the way, I feel the same way about Sheffield. I feel the same way about anyone, any Yankee from that, anyone who was on that list, that was not anything approaching scientific rigor. And so all of that data is meaningless. Everyone who showed up on the report, I would ignore and I would not hold against anyone. And then RTs played, obviously, at a time, starting in 2000, whatever it was, 2004, 2005, where there was an actual

testing regimen. And it's that state remained the same for 10 more years. And so if you played during the testing regimen and didn't test positive, then in my opinion, you cannot hold, you can't say, well, that person did steroids. If you're going to take it

into account and you think it matters, you at least have to have a system for how you take into account. And I feel like now what happened was everybody from that era... First of all, everybody from that era was probably doing something. Was Ortiz doing something? Probably. I don't know. The hell do I know? But so many guys where everyone you know

so funny is everyone's like oh Scott Rowland Scott Rowland got a boost this year because he's seen as a clean player because there's never been any smoke or fire how do we know like have you seen go back and look at pictures of Scott Rowland that dude was jacked like

was he doing something I don't know I have no idea. No, but like everyone from that time had, it's like a coin flip, whether or not they were using something legal. It's just the point is that the league didn't care. And if the league didn't care, you can't hold it against them.

We're right about Ortiz. This is not two homers defending Ortiz. We're correct. Where I fall apart is when I defend Manny Ramirez to people after like two drinks, where I'm like, he never did it. He's the greatest natural hitter ever. Near the end, he was trying to hold on.

He was caught like three times. I know. I still defend that guy to the end. That's where I'm like, you can fully pick me apart with my Manny defenses. You mentioned A-Rod. This is one of the many reasons baseball makes no sense to me. Now, we

also have a terrible commissioner. Manfred is rising up the rankings. Gary Bettman, to me, will always be the gold standard. Goodell is right there. And especially if Goodell mangles this Flores thing, Goodell might even pass Gary Bettman. But Manfred's putting together a nice resume.

He really is, yeah. So you have Alex Rodriguez, who isn't allowed in the Baseball Hall of Fame because he cheated, he was suspended, the whole thing. And he admitted it, yeah. And he admitted it. And now we morally cannot have him in our hallowed Baseball Hall of Fame. But we can have him on two different networks

talking about live baseball games. How the fuck does that make sense? It is wild. And also, he's not even any good at it. That's what really bugs me. Yeah. It's like that's what I mean. They have no rules, right? There have been moments

in the past where baseball has said, this is a bright line that you cannot cross. And one of those bright lines was gambling. And it was in every clubhouse. It was posted in every clubhouse. You cannot gamble on games because of the Black Sox. Cocaine was another one. Hey, don't do cocaine.

Not allowed. So Pete Rose gets banned for life from baseball. And everybody says, hey, after a while, come on. He's an all-time hit leader. This is ridiculous. But to me, it's like, hey, after a while, that's... Come on. He's an all-time hit leader. This is ridiculous. But to me, it's like, look, I didn't make the rule. I'm not judging the rule. But everybody knew it was the rule. The rule was very clear. And it was like, there's basically,

at that time, one thing that you can't do. There's one thing that they were like, if you do this, you're in big trouble. And he did that one thing. They were like, if you do this, you're in big trouble. And he did that one thing. And so whether or not you think it's right that he's banned from the Hall of Fame, you have to at least say like,

hey, he knew the rule. He willingly flaunted the rule. And when it comes to PEDs, there was no rule. There was no guidelines. Nothing was posted. Everyone knew it was happening. Everybody turned the other way because the Sosa-Mcaguire home run chase was such a big deal. Fans were pouring into the stands. TV contracts were going through the roof.

Everybody kind of wanted it to continue. And so to now, years later, come down with a hammer and say, well, how dare you mess with the hallowed institution that is competition and baseball. It's the worst. It doesn't make any sense because there was no rule. And if you don't, you know this, you have kids. If you don't tell kids what the rules are, they will go crazy. And that's what happened.

And so I just, with the Hall of Fame and with the game in general, it's so galling to me that they refused to lay down what the actual rules were and are now punishing people for not following the rules which they never laid down. Doesn't make any sense.

It's out of control. And the Pete Rose thing is a great example where... You're right. I can see how he's not in the Hall of Fame. Yeah. I don't necessarily think after all this time... I'm not going to bat for Pete Rose. Yeah, you can't.

We're pretty sure he bet against his team he was managing. We have some pretty good evidence on that, which to me seems like the third rail. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he claims he never did, but I don't know. There's a good book about it that refutes pretty intensely. I just feel like if you said to me, hey, the one thing you can never do if you and I are going to be friends is insult Cheers.

And if you insult Cheers, our friendship is over. And then for the next three years, quietly in text threads to other people, I was like, can you believe Bill thinks Cheers is a good show? That show sucks. No, I'll give you a worse example.

And then it came out that I came up with the Applebee's spot using the Cheers theme for a bit. This is the all-time most flagrant violation in the history of TV commercials. The Cheers theme is untouchable. You can't use it, Applebee's. Sorry. Yeah, it's a weird move.

But the point is, if you then found those texts and learned about me inventing the Applebee's commercial, and you said, we can't be friends anymore. And I point is, if you then found those texts and learned about me inventing the Applebee's special, and you said, we can't be friends anymore. And I said, what are you talking about? How could you do this to me?

Your response would be, I told you you couldn't do this. And so that's Pete Rose, but it's not, definitively not the steroids guys. And that's what really makes no sense. I thought Doug Glanville's piece about this did make me think because I think

just the way our world works with the group think and especially on Twitter, people got really mad about the Hall of Fame thing, right? Which you and I have been there for a while and that's these guys have to be in. And then Doug Glanville wrote a really thoughtful piece about hey, here's what it was like to play against these guys. I did it on the level

a lot of my guys did. It was much harder to play against them. And I don't think they should be in. And he laid out a really good case. And that's why this is a great argument. I get it. Yeah. Yeah.

It was a very good piece. He's a really good writer, that guy. And it is a good perspective where we can sit from our vantage point and just talk about the way the league handled it. But that is the on-the-field issue. The on-the-field issue is half the league or whatever knew that the other half was using.

That's why Bonds started doing it. Remember? Bonds watched McGuire and Sosa and he was like, I'm better than those guys and they're juicing and they're getting all the headlines and they're the ones who are the heroes and everything. And he said, fuck this. Yeah. And he also read into

it racism, which I think is correct. The world was so happy to have Mark McGuire be the one to win. And so he snapped and he started using and then it rocketed him past both of them into a stratosphere no one will ever reach again. And so he snapped and he started using and then it rocketed him past both of them into a stratosphere no one will ever reach again. And so what Glanville says is essentially what we already know from Bonds and other

people was going on, which is half the league knew the other half was using. They were fed up with it. They hated watching it. They hated the fact that they were competing on an uneven playing field. And so then more guys started doing it just to keep up. And again, when the league never says, hey, everyone, why don't you stop using this stuff? You can't get angry at them. I'm sorry. It's not ideal. It's not ethical. It's not great. But you can't punish them institutionally for something that wasn't told to them was worthy of punishment.

Well, our two heroes from that era, our guy Pedro. Yeah. His stats during that era, when you consider what was going on and how different they were from every other pitching stat, it's one of the great achievements in the history of the sport. The 99-00 seasons that he had, I think it's pretty easy to make the argument that the two greatest pitching seasons of all time with everything that was going on. His ERA

plus in one of those years was over 300, which means he was three times better than the average pitcher. His ERA was... It felt that way in the moment. Yeah. The league ERA was 493 and his was like 193 or something. I mean, it's bananas what he did.

So you have him. The other hero is our guy, Rich Garces, aka El Guapo, who you have all these PD guys. He comes in. He's built like a penguin. He's 280 pounds. It's just running in from the bullpen.

He's winded and was able to get guys out in the eighth inning. Those are my two heroes from that era. I mean, it's truly heroic. Heroes is the right word. Rich Garces was the most fun player in baseball that one year that he was dominating somehow in the eighth inning.

I've never seen more joy in the stands than him running out from the bullpen and drunk, drunk assholes and people like myself, just pure delight, holding beer, just like, this is amazing.

I can't believe I'm here for this. And then he would strike out to the next three guys. Yeah. It's why also Bartolo Colon is the greatest baseball has ever created. It's because...

Yeah, he's another one. Yeah. Yeah. Him hitting that home run might be the great, single greatest baseball moment of all time. Bartolo Colon. So your new book is called How to Be Perfect. You are going to pop on Yeah. Yeah. Him hitting that home run might be the single greatest baseball moment of all time. Don't look alone.

So your new book is called How to Be Perfect. You are going to pop on the Prestige TV podcast with me one of the next two weeks. We both love Cheers. We're probably in the top five of all-time people who love Cheers. And we're going to do a Hall of Fame episode about an episode from the first probably three seasons. We don't know which one yet. episode, about an episode from the first probably three seasons. We don't know which one yet. With Coach. And there's a lot of Hall of Fame candidates.

So feel free to flood either of our Twitter timelines with Cheers recommendations. But the great thing about that show is I don't even know where we start with. There's no definitive, oh, it's got to be that show. Like with Lost, it's like, oh, like Mallory and Joanne Robinson they did season 3 finale of Lost it's like yeah that makes sense I get it

Cheers there's 20 candidates yeah I mean it is it is the Ur sitcom for exactly that reason which is like

from the pilot on they knew exactly what they were doing all the characters were fully formed like it you could like the one of the episodes

I pitched to you to do is the bottle cap episode the lucky bottle cap episode which I think is like the characters were fully formed like it it you could like that one of the episodes where i pitched to you to do is the bottle cap app it's the lucky bottle cap episode which i think is like the sixth episode they did yeah or something it's so early and like you usually don't get to that level of of quality and character development everything else until like season three of a show and they were on it in in a matter of weeks so So yeah, let us know which one you would examine because at the first blush of doing this, we had 10 candidates in 30 seconds. Yeah, and I was mad that I forgot five more.

All right, good to see you. Good luck with the book. Thanks for coming on. Thanks, buddy. Talk to you soon. All right, my dad is here. We're taping a special edition of the Blue Plate Special. You haven't been on in a while.

Your Wi-Fi is terrible. Your fans are wondering what happened, but every time I do a Zoom or FaceTime with you, you cut out half the time, and you won't fix it. Well, it was funny. Yesterday, we went to your son's basketball game, and after the game, a stranger came over and said, I miss hearing you on your pod.

My dad and I talk about how you're a part of this generation and what happened to you. Did you pay that person to come over? So I'd feel bad. You saw me talking to him. You asked who he was. So let's talk about the Celtics. You have been going, how many games you've been to?

I think this game this year, probably five or six. And you're like double masked. Well, Boston has a rule now that you have to show your vaccination card and wear a mask. But there's so many fake vaccination cards out there. You go into this arena with 18,000 people and you're allowed to take your masks off, as you know, when you eat and drink. Well, everybody's eating and drinking the whole game. So I'm just not comfortable. So I eat beforehand, wear a double mask, feel better about it, try to enjoy the game. Then you watch Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown just go one-on-one basketball in the fourth quarter and we blow games. Although lately it's gotten better. Well, last seven or eight games has been better.

And I hate to say this, but it does track back to Marcus Smart coming back from COVID. Oh, you're back in on Marcus. I can't say I'm back in, but there's no doubt the team is playing better. Rob Mahoney. And I talked about him earlier in the podcast

because he's involved in a lot of trade scenarios with the Celtics, potentially, if you're going to change. I've seen, you know, I've read all the stuff you have. I don't, everything I've read, they're not getting nearly enough back for him. Yeah. So I wouldn't trade him right now. How about Time Lord?

Where do you stand on Time Lord? I like him a lot, and I know you disagree, but I watch him five or six mistakes a game, probably on defense. Yeah. But the teammates love him. I mean, you have to watch in the huddle, and he's really well-liked by everybody.

And he does some tremendous things during a game. And he's still young. So I would never give up on him this early. So you wouldn't trade smart and Time Lord for Sabonis? You love Sabonis. I love Sabonis. You'd think about it. I'd think about it.

I would think about it. Got to give up something to get something. Yeah. I wonder if you're giving up a little bit too much. My guess is that I went from thinking they were going to be sellers to now thinking that their goal would be to get under the tax and either trade Schroeder and move Pritchard in that spot. Because I think Udoka now has his eight-man rotation.

Schroeder's going to play 17 to 20 minutes a game. So either you get rid of him to a contender and then you get under the tax or you use Langford or one of those guys. Yes, I wouldn't trade Schroeder. I'd trade somebody like Langford for a second-round pick. I like the way the team is playing lately and I think Schroeder is nice to have coming off the bench.

Are you out on the young guys, or are you out on them for this year? Pritchard, Neesmith, Lankford, because you get to see these guys in person. You're picking up more than I can see on TV. I'm out on Lankford. Out on Lankford. He can't shoot. I mean, how many times is he in the corner waiting to get the ball and clangs off the rim? The appeal when they drafted him was that he was a slasher, would go to the basket. And a scorer.

And he doesn't do it. Whether he's afraid of getting whacked because he's had some injuries, but he's not the slasher they thought they were getting. And he can't shoot. He can't shoot from the outside. But how much of that do you think has to do with the fact that this team just makes the young guys stand in the corner and basically do nothing? Yeah, but you know, you and I, when Brown was a rookie, you and I used to complain all Jalen Brown did was stand in the corner waiting for the ball. He could, again, he could shoot from the ball. Yeah. He could, again, he could shoot from the outside. Langford can't shoot. You can't

make him a shooter. He couldn't shoot when he came out of college. Yeah. I'd rather move on from him, give Nesmith and Pritchard minutes. Nesmith. Nesmith, yes. You always call him Nesmith. Well, you have the same pronunciation dyslexia I have when somebody's name

the way it's written down looks like the way you should say it he could be called Nesmith the way he's named we but I like

Nesmith more than you do because he had a five week stretch last year where I thought it was like this is a 3 and D guy who tries really hard

who's doing like high level things I just wanted to get minutes now he's been buried because Adoka's like, we haven't had a four-game winning streak all season. I'm just not playing the young guys anymore. I can't trust them.

I have my eight guys. This is what we're doing. And now you're just basically torpedoing every trade value for all those guys. Yeah, in a way that's accurate. I think Adoka, he's been, I mean, in Boston, there's an undercurrent of dissatisfaction with him. And I think people are afraid to talk openly. Yeah, because he's a new guy.

He's a new guy, you know, not giving him a chance. He's a minority hire coach. Give him a chance. But I watch him on the sideline. I'm not sure what he's doing. I mean, he stands the whole game. The players seem to like him, but except for the last five games, the whole season, we've seen these 10-point stretches, 15-point stretches that other teams run on us. And he doesn't call the timeout at the right moment. He doesn't stop it. Well, he's never coached before. So the question for me is,

is he getting better? And I wouldn't have said that until Smart came back where I think he finally realized, like, I need a rotation. And maybe the Celtics helped him out on that. But now at least everybody knows who's playing and when and how many minutes. And I think sometimes that can be really helpful as mundane and easy as that sounds. A lot of coaches don't realize it. No, I mean, it's the upside of the eight-man rotation. First of all, all eight people have to be healthy. It's only in the last five or six games that the whole team has been healthy. And Time Lord could go down tomorrow.

I mean, he's jumping for blocks. He's always landing with three people around him. He's flying into the cameraman. Like, he's pretty fearless in a way that's a little scary. He is. I wish he learned how to control some of that because he's injury prone due to his assertiveness, aggressiveness. But again, the stats show that when their starting five is healthy and playing together, we're a pretty good team.

Yeah. And if our starting five are in place and you're bringing Schroeder and... Grant. See, I like Richardson a lot more than you do. Yeah. He's starting to win me over. He's playing with a lot of confidence. I think they've at least got him back to Miami, Josh Richardson, right? Dallas. Josh Richardson is gone. No, he's gone, but, uh, they're putting him in the right spots to score. His three is going in much more frequently. He's a good slasher, good rebounder, and he plays on defense. Kind of knows his

place. And he's another guy like Time Lord. You can see that the team likes him. The team likes everybody on this team. It's an unusual... Couldn't hear your guy Enes Frito. Your favorite Celtic. Yes, they do like him, although

I think his skills have eroded a little bit. Yeah. He's not getting the rebounds when he plays, but again, I like Yes, they do like him, although I think his skills are eroded a little bit. He's not getting the rebounds when he plays. But again, I like what they're doing. The downside of an eight-man rotation is what you just talked about. The young guys got buried. And I guess you can't have it both ways because when they bring the young guys in, they don't play well and maintain the lead. Right.

And they have deer in the headlights. I think they do. Neesmith has deer in the headlights. Neesmith has been shattered by this season. Yeah. I don't think Pritchett has been shattered. I just think... He just needs to play. He needs to play more.

Well, that's why if they trade, even if they trade Schroeder to get into the tax and they get some sort of asset for him, Pritchett will move into those minutes. And those are two positives with not a ton of negatives. And Schroeder gets to play for a real contender, potentially, in that scenario. Yeah, maybe.

My worry is getting back to something you said earlier. They're injury-prone. Yeah. Any one of them can go down. Any one of them can be in COVID protocol. And I think Schroeder is somebody who can start. I'm not sure Pritchett plays well when he starts. Where are you with Tatum these days?

I'm better than I was two weeks ago, or two and a half weeks ago. There's been some hostile texts from you to me about some of the Tatum performances. Well, it's funny. Last night's game, he didn't shoot well again. I think he was one for seven on threes. But he had eight or nine assists.

Yeah. And that's the Tatum I want to see. And he went to the basket on the biggest play of the game. He went to the basket. Yeah. And they needed a hoop. I think he's listening to go to the basket. Yeah.

The articles talked about when he was in that awful stretch, 0 for 20 on threes, that he had to score by going to the basket and maybe the light went off that you can match the two, you can go to the basket, score there, and it opens up shooting the three. Yeah. What I hate

him doing is the contested three. I hate the walk it up. Yeah. The walk it up is always the last five minutes when they walk it up and they're starting the offense at 12 seconds left. And then it leads to like a contested something from Tatum or Brown. That's my least favorite. That's my other criticism though of coaching. He shouldn't be allowing them to walk it up. Yeah, he should be telling them to push it. This team plays 100% better when they're pushing the ball. Right. But that's also harder

to do in the last five minutes when it slows down and you got to get a good shot and it's just hard to be like, but I'm with you. I think they should just go. I think they get better shots in transition, not in a set playing. What East team are you afraid of? Oh, Philly.

It's really, Philly. We don't play Philly well at all. Yeah. I think we play every other team okay. Yeah, we play Milwaukee well. It's weird. Yep. But not Philly.

Brooklyn's a mess right now. Embiid, though, is a wild card for me. I mean, he's had an unusually healthy year. Yep. And you just, historically, he's an accident waiting to happen. Yeah. To think of him getting the 3,000 minutes in a season seems pretty inconceivable. But when he is out there playing, we have no one to guard him, no one to stop him. I think Miami is an awful matchup for this team if they have all their guys.

If they have all their guys, but they haven't had all their guys. And Lowry might, who knows, he might just be at a different point of his career. Also, they're consistently in trade rumors the last two weeks. Yeah, there's some Duncan Robinson buzz, which I was surprised by. Duncan Robinson. But who knows? Do you believe half of this buzz? Because I know you go to Hoopsype every day.

No. I mean, inevitably, we get to trade deadline, which, as you know, is a week from today and things don't happen. I love trades, but there's more rumors out there probably than trades that will actually happen, obviously. It's the 20th anniversary of when we traded Joe Johnson

after like 50 games for Rodney Rogers and Tony Delk and we threw in a number one pick too. We've made some terrible trades. I think we liked that one. Cause you and I were going to those games wondering what kind of like how we're talking about the young guys in the Celtics now, like what does Joe Johnson do? He was getting buried.

He was getting buried. If you look at his minutes and they just start going down the last 15 games. I recall you and I had the same discussion about Billups his first half year with us. He looked like he lost his confidence. He was like, is he a point guard? What is he? Yeah, he was a combo guard with deer in the headlight look. And obviously, we gave up on him too early.

Gave up on Joe Johnson too early. That one in 01, you wanted us to take Zach Randolph with one of the three first rounders. You love Zach Randolph. I love Zach Randolph in college. You had to remind me of that for the next 15 years. I loved him in college. I kept saying to you, we need to take Zach Randolph. A low post, bruising low

post guy. You also like Bill Curley in college. Well, but not... Another lefty banger. I love lefties. Yeah. I love lefties. You do love the lefties.

Yeah. My son's team with our best player was a lefty and you're like, Oh, he's a lefty. We love the lefties. Yeah. I love Randall last year. Yeah. I don't know what happened to Randall this year. Not this year.

Yeah. All right. Before we go, the one we go, any last words for Tom Brady? I know people are very upset that in his closing statement

the day of retirement or a couple days later, he talked about Tamper and the owners and the fans and I'm a little bit upset too. I wish he had thrown

the Patriot fans in there. I can understand whatever's going on between belichick craft and brady has nothing to do with the fans of new england we love the guy yeah um i just wish he had thrown us in there a closing statement putting that aside i mean best player i ever saw yeah so i thought it was interesting Belichick said that. I was kind of shocked when I read that. Best player ever is what Belichick said. And, you know, I still go back to Deflategate and some of the other stuff where I think Belichick left Brady out to dry.

Yeah, he definitely did. I think all of that eventually led to Brady having said probably to himself or Giselle said to Brady, you've had enough. Time to move on. But I still go back to the deflate gate incident, how he was left out to dry. And that was the beginning of the end. And a little bit of the Jimmy G stuff, too, which Seth Wickersham wrote about. Yeah. Yeah.

The Jimmy G stuff and the guy that, Guerrero, is that how you say his name? His guru. Yeah. Being thrown out of the locker room. Yeah, it wasn't great. There's all kinds of stuff that never should have happened. It was like a marriage.

It just didn't make it. 20 years. 14 years. Couldn't make it to 20. Well, he made it to 20 with us. Well, I did a thing on my podcast on Tuesday about Brady. I did the Tom Brady Awards, but part of it was about all the terrible quarterbacks we had to root for for my entire life. Starting with Jim Punkett, who lived near us when we were in Brookline. Yes.

It was like, Jim Punkett, he lives near us. And then he just got the shit kicked out of him for five years. And then he was out of football and the Raiders saved them. And, and then it was just, um, one guy after another who didn't have it. Your least favorite Tony is.

And I think in the running for least favorite Boston athletes, I think for, for us together, probably least favorite Patriot athlete. Yeah. Um, I think each sport has a list of least favorites for us. And then all of a sudden, the best quarterback of all time was just sitting there as our third

string quarterback for a year and came in. You and I were on the Brady over Blitzo bandwagon from day one. Right away. The first couple of games, it's kind of like when you go to a basketball game, you watch a guy for five minutes and you say to yourself, he has it or he doesn't have it. I think you can say that about an awful lot of these athletes. And I don't know whether it's demeanor, where they carry themselves, the immediate impact professionally like Brady had. I mean, obviously, Brady led us to a Super Bowl, but in that second year, his first year, actually playing full-time. But we'll never see his like again. I fear for the future of football in New England. I like Mac, but we consistently don't bring in the weapons for our quarterbacks, and that's discouraging. Well, I wonder how many years Belichick has left. Everybody says he wants to pass George Hallis' record,

which would be two more years probably. Yeah, I was wondering, would they bring in Brian Flores, who he was so tight with, and then Belichick ends up his text being used in this lawsuit that Flores has. And apparently he didn't give Belichick a heads up on that. But, you know, and then there's all kinds of conspiracy theories now about Belichick did this intentionally because he's trying to blow up the Giants, the Bills,

you know, and at the same time, and then maybe that allows Flores to come back and he hands it. McDaniels is leaving. So we do have kind of that coach-in-waiting, elevated assistant spot open. Everybody loves Forrest. I thought, you and I both thought he was amazing on the Dolphins against the Pats,

just if you judged him by those games. They always out-coached us in those games. I thought he out-coached us. I thought he used a less talented lineup much better than we seem to use a more talented lineup. I mean, I know there's so much. And good game plans against us. Good game plans against us.

I mean, he really knew our weaknesses. I'd love to see him come back, but who knows with all the stuff that's going on right now. I can't believe he wasn't the first guy hired. As soon as he became available, I was like, oh, the Giants, I can't wait to see how this plays out. With the rich guy owner circle, you just never know. Ross might have bad-mouthed them. There might have been stories out. But then the Giants process being such an obvious sham if they knew they were high on Dayball. And then, you know, Belichick, you've done that to me. Like you've, you've sent me emails. My mom has done this too, where you, or it's texts where you think you're texting me, but you're texting somebody else. Oh yeah. If Brian Dayball, Brian Flores, it totally makes sense. He probably had two Bryans, Brian F, Brian D next to each other. And I think he's old. Belichick's,

you know, two years younger than you are. I know. I think he's old. Belichick's, you know, two years younger than you are. I know. I can see it happening. Yeah. So I don't believe in the conspiracy stuff, but this is such an ugly story. I mean, the fact that especially like young,

unproven guys getting hired really the last couple years because it seems like the league's almost de-emphasizing the coaching position to some degree. They want like the young guy like Zach Taylor

or Sean McVay, is their dream scenario of a young guy we brought in for cheap and we built him up. I hope he gets a Houston job. I mean, the Houston GM, obviously, as you know, was many, many years with the Patriots. Yeah. And as was Flores.

They must have a relationship. The downside of the Houston job, I think talent-wise, they're not where they need to be. Yeah, I think that job sucks. And they have a quarterback situation that is unresolvable, probably. Yeah, unless Watson,

there was always rumors Watson wanted to play with him, but... But what do you do with Watson? Isn't Jacksonville still open? That's the one I would want. At least to get a quarterback. I think those are the two still open, yeah.

Yeah. It's really, to me, one of the craziest stories that isn't that crazy because, you know, I just expect the worst from the NFL.

You think like, even this thing about he claimed Stephen Ross, Flores claimed Stephen Ross bribed him or tried to bribe him 100K per loss. Stephen Ross adamantlyed him, or tried to bribe him. $100K per loss. Stephen Ross adamantly denied it last

night. First of all, a really weird thing to make up. I don't believe Flores would just make that up. I think that's inconceivable. Flores today on ESPN said he has proof, evidence of that. Yeah, you don't just don't come up with that. It also

makes sense because they were trying to tank that year. It was the same year they traded their left tackle at the start of the year, Tunsell, and all that stuff. But that story alone is a gigantic story, but then you go into this other web of just over and over again, there's clear bias against

black coaching candidates. There's no way around it. And if I look at the NBA and if either of those stories were happening in the NBA, people would be losing their minds around it. And if I look at the NBA and if either of those stories were happening in the NBA, people would be losing their minds. Right. Well, I think it's going to monopolize. Isn't it amazing how it seems like two weeks before every Super Bowl, some- Yeah, there's some crazy- Huge story. Yeah, you're right.

I mean, fortunately, and usually the Patriots are involved, but ironically, I guess we are involved through Belichick's text messages. Yeah, vicariously. Yeah. Although I would agree with you, I think. I mean, I've made that mistake, sending a text message to the wrong person who has the same first name. Well, I have people in my life who are pretty connected in football circles and they're like, he's blowtorching his chance to coach again, Flores. And this is going to be another

Kaepernick situation. I just don't agree. I think he's going to get another job. He's a really good coach. It's really hard to find eight good coaches in any given season or 10 good coaches. I don't see how this would prevent him from getting another job. But other people are like, this is, he knew when he did this, that this is it. He can't get hired.

Wouldn't it be interesting if both of us think Belichick has two more years because he wants to break Hellas's record. Yeah. He brings in Flores and they make a commitment. Yeah. You're the next guy. You're the next guy. That's my dream scenario.

Yeah. I would like that very much. Plus Flores is like, people don't realize like he's a BC guy. Yeah. You're the next guy. You're the next guy. That's my dream scenario. Yeah. I would like that very much. Plus Flores is like, people don't realize like he's a BC guy. Yeah. Oh yeah. He worked for the Patriots two different stints, including most of the decade.

Like, I think that makes sense. And he's honestly, from everything I've heard and everybody I've talked to kind of similar to Belichick, like a little grouchy, really committed to the players. Let's put that rumor out there.

I love it. I've been rooting for that ever since he didn't get the Giants job. I was like, bring him back. Make him the highest paid assistant in the league. Give him the pathway to two years from now, I'm handing this to you. I guess the question is, does Belichick really want to leave in two years? What's he going to do? And Andy Reid's like 75 now.

He's still going. Could Belichick really want to leave in two years. What's he going to do? And Andy Reid's like 75 now. He's still going. Could Belichick go to 80? I would think once Belichick broke Halas' record, why wouldn't he want to retire at that point? But I think you and I are breaking news today. I'd like to go out there and say that I've heard from unnamed sources that Flores is strongly considering coming back to the Pats

and he'll follow Belichick as the head coach. I think it would be a great outcome. I feel really bad for him because you could see in the interviews he gave, he's fucking humiliated by this. He felt like he didn't get a fair chance to interview for jobs and that he was being trotted around

as like, oh, we've checked the box. So now we can hire the guy we're going to hire. And the Giants scenario is the worst scenario where the Giants already knew who they were hiring and they brought him in. That's an awful story. And that alone would be terrible. But the $100,000. Yeah. It's two separate crazy stories. Yeah, awful stories. And he has evidence apparently, and you wonder where all this is headed. And we can leave on this though. I think what struck me about the reactions this week,

I think people have such a low expectation of NFL owners, more than any other sport, right? I think you're right. It's like the Dan Snyder stuff four or five months ago where it's just, the stuff almost bounces off people where it's like,

oh yeah, this rich guy who owns the Dolphins offered his coach 100K to lose games and then fired him because he didn't like him basically and then maybe he bad-mouthed him around the league too. Like, totally believable to me. Well, aren't you really surprised though

because we have such a strong NFL commissioner, Goodell. I know. Like, totally believable to me. Well, aren't you really surprised though? Because we have such a strong NFL commissioner. Oh, did I just say that? He'll be running in the other direction. This guy, Deflategate became like his life mission to figure out how the balls got deflated by 15% in Dan Snyder. And then this story, and he'll be running in the other direction and come up with some bogus investigation. Well, you're right. This is why he's the GOAT terrible commissioner. With Deflategate, he had already made public announcements the day after.

Have you read anything or heard anything that he said in the last week? No. No. That, you know, Deflategate always felt like it was a little more about, he felt like he kind of covered up for spy gate for craft and can't believe maybe he had to deal with this again.

And it was like, I'll show you guys. It was, it always felt like there was a little of that. This one though, he, he will run in the other direction and you know how he's going to handle it. It's going to be the dominant story next week.

And I think Forrest has a lot of fans out there, you know, and then on top of it is, you know, the focal point of this whole Blackhead coaching search that the league has just consistently botched forever. Well, it's an interesting story for lots of reasons, but I'm not hearing anybody criticizing Flores for taking the stance he's taking.

No. Even with Deflategate, you had people on both sides of the table. This one's really different. Yeah, the only thing I've heard, which, you know, that he took Belichick's private texts and if he didn't give him a heads up, that's a little not great

to somebody who's been your mentor for 20 years. Stephen A. made that contention. I thought, yeah, we watched the same first take. I thought first take was great on Thursday. Yeah, it was great yesterday. Stephen A. made that contention. I thought, yeah, we watched the same first take. I thought first take was great on Thursday. Yeah, it was great yesterday. Or Wednesday. But yeah, I thought that didn't sit great with me that he just did that and didn't give him a heads up. But other than that, I mean,

Team Flores on this one. Do we know that he didn't give him a heads up? We don't. It was reported, but we don't. We haven't. Belichick hasn't said anything, obviously. I don't know that part. But, you know, my guess is he must have given Belichick hasn't said anything obviously I don't know that part but you know my guess is he must have given Belichick a heads up how could he not

I mean how could he not tell him hey I'm gonna I'm gonna I feel really wrong I'm gonna use our text we had to kind of prove my case here

you know I have to say even if he didn't give him a heads up I don't think Belichick cares that he didn't get a heads up 100% doesn't care so I don't think that should be the story. Yeah, I'm with you. All right. Well, hopefully we broke news today. Brian Flores coming back to the New England Patriots.

He's our head coach in 2024. You heard it here first on the Blue Plate special. Can't wait to have him come back in 2024. All right, dad. Good to see you. Good to see you. This podcast was produced by Kyle Creighton thanks to Dylan Berkey as well and we'll be back on Sunday with a brand new one we'll do some basketball I think on Sunday and then check me on the Prestige TV podcast did Pam and Tommy on that one

so there you go I want to see them on the way so I never say I don't have feelings with them. I want to see them on the way so I never say I don't have feelings with them.