The Bill Simmons Podcast - Our Jonathan Tjarks Tribute (Including a 2018 NBA Re-draft) With Kevin O’Connor, J. Kyle Mann, and Chris Ryan

Episode Date: September 14, 2022

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Chris Ryan, Kevin O'Connor, and J. Kyle Mann to remember their friend Jonathan Tjarks (2:26). Then in honor of Jonathan, they talk a little basketball and revisit the 2018 NBA draft (43:40). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Chris Ryan, Kevin O'Connor, and J. Kyle Mann Producers: Kyle Crichton and Isaiah Blakely Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, my name is Kevin Clark. I'm the host of a new football podcast called Slow News Day. I want to tell you about it. On Mondays, Lindsay Jones and I will recap the weekend of football that was, as well as look ahead to what's next. On Wednesday, the normal Slow News Day, the thing you've been watching for years, current players, current coaches, current analysts,

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Miller Lite can signal the beginning of Miller time. Miller Lite is the light beer with all the great beer tastes we like. 90 calories per 355 mil can. So why not grab some Miller Lites today? Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. I put up a new Rewatchables on Monday. We did Singles, the 30th anniversary of probably the defining Gen X movie, one of the great soundtracks ever,

and a movie that has really held up as a snapshot of the early 90s in Seattle and that whole scene. I really love it. Cameron Crowe directed it. Chris Ryan, Van Lathan, and I, we broke it down, had a great time. So there you go. As promised on this podcast, we're devoting it to Jonathan Charks,

our beloved colleague at The Ringer. Great writer, great podcaster, great thinker, and most important, really great guy. And he's left a huge void with us. So I have Jay Kyle, man, Chris Ryan, and Kevin O'Con he's left a huge void with us. So I have Jay Kyle, man, Chris Ryan, and Kevin O'Connor, three people who worked with him closely. And the first two thirds of the podcast, we're just talking about sharks and telling stories about him

and what it was like to work with him and just give you a feel for the person. And then the last part of the podcast is gonna be a redraft of the 2018 NBA draft, which we watched with Sharks. Kyle wasn't there, but Kevin and Chris and I were. And a lot of the ringer people were there. We did a live redraft. And as it turned out, we all loved Luca. We were all in on Luca. And then Sharks' favorite team trades up to number three and they get Luca. And we have it on video. You can watch it on YouTube. And one of the things I'll always remember is Jason Gallagher, another Mavs fan who worked with

us, just running over for the high five with Charks. So we thought it would be fun to redraft that. And it's something that he would have loved. So that is all next. First, we'll play a little Pearl Jam. Alright, I'm here with Kevin O'Connor, J. Kyle Mann, and Chris Ryan. We're going to talk about our friend Jonathan Charks, who passed away on Saturday after a pretty prolonged battle with cancer. And I think Kyle and KLC probably worked with them the closest of all the writers we had and video people.

Kyle, you're like a writer, video creator. Ongoing discussion, right, Chris? Chris and I. He's in the process of self-actualizing. Dabbling. We started The Ringer 2015 and we really started planning it kind of that fall, I guess.

And we met, we had all these lists. Remember, we had these writer lists. And Charks was somebody we were looking at when we were at Grantland. Yeah. And it was pretty early for him at that point. But he was clearly somebody that was going to work with us. We just didn't know if he was ready yet.

Yeah. And then in that space between Grantland and The Ringer, his stuff got better. And it got to the point where we were like, oh shit, is he going to get hired before we launch this thing? Charles was an original blog boy. He really was. He like came from an era of the internet that was people really writing for their own entertainment, you know, and pretty much just like, hey, I can self-publish or I can write for a team blog or I can write for a place

that's pretty independent, but I'm just going to get my thoughts down and kind of find my own voice. And he was a really good example of like somebody who never really was swayed by like popular public opinion and the way the winds were blowing on the internet and seemed blissfully kind of unaware of Twitter. You know what I mean? Like your MBA read it all that stuff. Yeah. Like he would be like, hey guys, just so you know, I wrote a book review on my site. That would be his tweet for the three months.

And it really showed in his writing. And it really showed when you talked to him. You felt like you were talking to someone who had thoughtfully given credence to different ideas and decided what he believed. And was aware of the discourse in very funny ways and would often just talk about takes and stuff like that. But he was really one of a kind.

He always cared about the angle and his angles were always really good and really unique and based. I mean, I honestly think he could have been like a basketball scout. Don't you think, KFC? He could have absolutely worked for a team and broken down. I mean, I think, you know, you talk to NBA people, the best scouts are the people who are curious. And, you know, they're willing to stand on an opinion at the same time. With Charks, I mean, like you said, he wasn't plugged into Twitter, right? But he came with his thoughts. He asked a lot of good, thoughtful questions and follow-up questions and more follow-up

questions. And I remember I was looking through my emails recently to find the first time charx and i connected and it was him emailing me about the celtics in like early 2014 yeah just with some hey i'm you know i'm writing about the celtics i wanted to get your thoughts i saw you on celtics blog you know here's you know here's five questions and i answered them all and you know we went back and forth for a while and you know we started chatting on Gchat on Google. It's about basketball. He's always curious, but always had his firm thoughts and opinions on the game.

The stuff that you described about his early blog, about the way he was just so... The thing about John was he would confront you with ideas, absolutely being dug in and didn't care about what the discourse was. the way he was just so the thing about john was like he he would confront you with ideas like absolutely being dug in and like didn't care about what the discourse was he and i were talking about some of his like favorite like basketball people and he some of the people he was popping off i was like what like just blindsiding me we don't even go into details but but he um this doesn't have to be john's top five worst tapes. No, no. He just...

He always would describe to me as like... He said... He would... I think he said this on somebody's show one time that he would start at Kakamehameh and work backwards.

Yeah. Basically say that what's the most outrageous thing. And I think he could have worked for a team. Because I've had people that I know now that like work with NBA teams

that will mention Charks and in these conversations about Charks now as we all kind of reflect on him, read his stuff back then because he was just a really creative thinker. He didn't really care what the popular kind of consensus was. And yeah, just insanely incisive and sharp.

That's something I've said over and over again. He was really prescient about where the NBA was going without being dogmatic about it. Like with small ball and stuff like lineup changes and what teams were going to have to do when the playoffs came around or what they were going to have to do when they had a specific matchup coming up.

Like he read matchups so well. Like sometimes you would be like, I don't know what's going to happen in this series. And John would just be like, this is what's going to happen in this series. This guy's going to get X'd out by this guy and this guy's going to get X'd out by that guy and then it'll come down to this guy versus this guy and whoever wins that matchup is going to win.

If he gambled, he would have done well. Yeah, but it was always like he was very good at being like it's not because this guy's an idiot or these guys are dumb that they don't see it like that. He's just like, look at the way it's not because these guys an idiot or these guys are dumb that they don't see it like that he's just like look at the way basketball is being played look at the way it's going to be played in six months when this guy and this guy are not as like important and it was

always like you get to the playoffs or you get to that matchup you get to that series and you'd be like ah john was right yeah yeah we had i mean it was such a fun time for basketball writing that first part of the 2010s because, and we were part of it, I think, with the stuff we were doing at Greenland. But you could have takes without worrying about them getting thrown back in your face as long as they were smart. Things were moving toward this smarter level of basketball and you could feel it all over the place. We were pretty ahead of the game with a lot of that stuff. And we had so many good people. So when we were forming the ringer, there's a lot of pressure on us finding the basketball people really over anything else that we had to find because we felt like we had had such a high level with the last site. And Charks was the first one where we were like, this guy is at the level. This guy is here.

Hopefully he won't get hired before we're going. And then KFC was the second one where I don't remember the, some Celtics blog thing. I've been following you for a while. I was like, he's not ready. He's not ready.

And then you wrote something and I was like, I think he's ready. Would he send you messages being like, you're not ready? That was when I reached out to you. That was when I reached out to you. That was when I reached out to you. Was it the IT prediction?

That was your big breakthrough, right? I don't know. I mean, I don't know what the blog was that year, but I remember when you followed. It was some sort of breakdown in the Celtics. It was really smart.

I was like, he's ready. But the point is, Charks was ready probably like eight, nine months before we actually started working for us. I think he was sitting there

in a way that was pretty unique. It was easier for us to find talent back then than it is now. He's told this story to me many times. Do you remember? This was right around when he first started with Ringer. He tweeted something out about football players versus basketball players, which he didn't tweet

hardly at all but he said something like this is so his personality he's like yeah well it's basketball players are actual actual great athletes whereas football players weren't or something and he just got i mean people just absolutely destroyed him and he and uh i just thought that was always a funny thing because i I would always be trying to learn how to do this because I was coming to it at a later age by the industry standard. How do I come to conclusions like that? Just trying to figure out how he thought. And he would always just say,

he'd be like, I don't even remember what I said on that pod. He had a great player next play mentality. And he would always encourage me to brag about the ones I got right. Because his thing that he would say over and over again was bad takes slip away. You miss 100% of the takes you never have. And one good one lives forever. Just encouraging me to shoot, basically. That's how John was.

He was just like unafraid to just be an original thinker, basically. Well, his draft takes were usually pretty dead on, which was what was so fascinating that the Chet Holmgren draft, which ended up sadly being John's last draft, but he did the Charks thing. He went all in. He's like, Chet's my guy. I am 100% in and here's all the reasons.

And he made the case. And it was so compelling. He actually almost swayed me. He had that one Jamal Crawford pro-am, like five minutes of like, and then it was the plantar fasciitis. Right, right, right. But going backwards with him, the angles were always the key. And just in general, in basketball writing, just every once in a while, just coming up with a way to look at something

that people didn't see yet. Or was sitting there and just nobody kind of noticed it in the same way. And I think the Durant piece that he wrote in 2019, I think is an amazing reread. He really captures, and it's even more interesting to read now three years later.

But then we talked about the OG Ananobi piece too, about is this guy what the new center is going to look like? And from just a basketball discourse standpoint, it's so hard to find people like that that are just like, all right, here's this piece of paper. I'm going to tilt it.

Tilt it by 10%. With one like that one, the OG Ananobi is the future of the center position. It hasn't exactly panned out that way, right? You know, because of the amount of centers that have entered the league and are still entering the league. Right, it flipped the other way. Centers have changed. Yeah, they've changed, right? But Charks

was right on with the necessary skills that a center is needed. And by the way, the Warriors just won the final. And the team that takes them down might be a team that has the OG and an OB or the player like him that can actually go against a dream out of the five. Like that's, that's, I watch basketball like television, right? So when basketball is on the screen, I'm still watching it like it's a show and I'm listening to the people talk and I'm looking at all the graphics and I kind of understand what I'm watching on a tactical or statistical or whatever level. But I feel like John is the kind of person who could watch...

Was really good at watching film. He could watch game film with nothing encumbered. Completely unencumbered. If it was muted, you didn't know the score. And John could read a game. Somehow that guy would be like, he would watch the same game as I did and I would be like, oh, here are all these storylines

that were coming out of it. And he was like, no, it's actually just like, did they move Tobias to the five or not? And that would be like the whole thing and I would just be like oh right I didn't think of that for the 90 minutes that I watched this basketball game and the 45 minutes I thought about it afterwards and the 50 minutes I spent looking at Twitter after that I never thought about like this little thing that John just would see when he was watching basketball you know and he always had enthusiasm behind it, right? Like, I think there's a lot of X's and O's types,

but Charks always brought love, you know, with his analysis. It was always enthusiastic. I think that's what made him so relatable. He did it in a presentable way, and the love for the game was always there. I mean, even after his diagnosis. I was amazed at the fact that, you know, he continued crushing it on the pod with you, Kyle, every single week.

And he kept writing kick-ass stories on the site. He genuinely loved the game. And anytime you talked to him through texts or phone calls, it was always basketball, basketball, basketball, basketball. He just genuinely loved the NBA. Yeah. And there was no

nasty... I'm certainly guilty of it where you're making fun of the players or making but he just genuinely loved the NBA. Yeah. Yeah. And there was like no nasty, you know, we, I, I'm certainly guilty of it where you're making fun of the players or making fun of GMs or situations. Yeah. To me, that's part of being a basketball fan is like having fun with the underbelly

of it. And Charks didn't really dabble with the underbelly at all. And I think that was part of like who he was as a person. Um, he just, he looked at it like almost like it was a spiritual thing. He really cared about the mechanics, trying to illustrate what he saw versus what the normal person would saw.

His writing got better pretty much every year, the first four years we had him. Then as a podcaster, that was another one where um remember the first couple times doing a pod with him where he hadn't figured out some of the tricks you need like you can't just stop talking and then expect the other things like that where it's like my point is over now you but you're like oh wait you're done yeah but then i think his real personality really came out i think the, the last couple of years too. And you spent the most time podcasting with him.

Getting to know him was like, I always thought people, a lot of people have like really graciously like reached out and asked me how I'm doing. And I appreciate everybody that's done that. I've been really careful to not like portray myself as like some lifelong best friend. I got to know him like late in his life and like really got to know. We really got close prepping for the pods, but having these conversations when he would be on the chemo chair and we would talk. I'm seriously

pushing three hours in some cases. We would just sit there and talk about... I was like, man, we should be recording these. But just going all over the place. But his passion for it, I think... Another thing too is that something he and I bonded over was just basically getting our, getting humbled and like getting our teeth kicked in, in our twenties.

And he was just telling me stories about getting fired from jobs because he was so like arrogant, which was his admission. He says that on one of the pods. He always says it. Yeah. And what, and what he was like stocking beer shelves for a while and just writing about basketball. And I think that like, when you're just doing it in that context his passion was the thing that was pushing him to do it and i think people just people uh people can sense that i don't know it's like the difference between like a good record that like is by a songwriter that wrote something they went through and like a produced pop thing like people can sense that kind of thing. And John just always, we gravitate.

We were fast friends, I think, on that front just because we loved all levels of basketball too. And we were nerdy. We had patience for it that maybe not every NBA fan does. But he, yeah, KLC's right. Like his passion was like, up until like the last conversation I had with him, which was he could barely talk, but Luca was going off in that FIBA game.

And I came in and I was like, dude, Luca's going wild right now. And he smiled and he barely had any energy. And he texted me and he just said, let's watch FIBA highlights. That's literally what he wanted to do so we sat there and uh i had a laptop and we were just like going through synergy watching fiba highlights and i was like talking and he would nod and things like that it was just like that's that that was what he wanted to fill his time with i don't even think so much because of the the basketball itself i think basketball for him was like a prism to just connect with people. And whenever you would meet people, John knew so many people.

Like the stories you are telling me don't surprise me at all. Cause he, he just talked to everybody. Yeah. I mean, I was just, I did just download the G chat app. And that's like just endless back in 2016. It was, I think probably after I remember him, I can't find the message, but I remember when he got hired, he's like, yeah, I'm going to go to the new Simmons project. Yeah. You know, because in the past two years that we knew each other, it was like him working on his blog, him freelancing at SB Nation and grinding, like you said, during that time, working other jobs, busting his ass, writing for different places and always doing original content.

He just had a genuine passion and love for the nba and it's what allowed him to connect with so many different people whether it's us co-workers and friends or whether it's people he just ran into around dallas we love dallas too yeah i feel like the thing that he had that was also really special and i think that you're right that there may have been an element to maybe this is connected to his his faith i don't know but um his takes his takes i feel like i'm talking about a coward it's like he had like a humility um that was like this is the most important thing to me but it's not life or death so like if you disagree with me like i would try to like come in a little hot sometimes with him about like sometimes i would even i mean justin and i would try to come in a little hot sometimes with him about

sometimes I would even, I mean Justin and I would try to push him to be a little bit more provocative a little bit more getting under people's skin here a little bit and he was like yeah I just think I'm right

it'll just be like people who get it or they don't or maybe it turns out I'm wrong but that's it'll be like it'll just be like people who get it or they don't or like maybe it turns out I'm wrong but that's not a big deal like and I think that uh so much of the sports discourse now is about like dominating each other and just be like I predicted this and I was right so fuck you and John never did that like I don't even remember John like never really liked predicting stuff he was like, yeah, it'll happen one way or the other. And it was a very cool way of

relating to sports, I always thought. Let's take a break and then I want to talk about him as a person and the faith and all that stuff. Start the NFL week off right with a no sweat same game parlay every Thursday from FanDuel,

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Just search Movember. So we're talking about like the spirituality with charts, who especially in the basketball universe, the content universe, gets a little combative. There's some takes. He just kind of levitated a little combative. There's some takes. He just kind of levitated a little bit above it. Didn't really care what people thought of, he had this inner confidence and like, like what you said before,

this is what I think and I think I'm right. And that was it. A lot of it came from his faith, which he would talk about. He would talk about on podcasts. And this is even before he was sick. He would talk about it when you hung out with him in person. And it was a big part of who he was. And in a weird way, or maybe not a weird way, it kind of shaped his writing because there was like a serenity to it. And that was one of the things I really enjoyed about reading him and listening to him.

Yeah, he would. It was funny because like when we became friends, we basically had opposite experiences. I grew up in like a very legalistic Southern Baptist environment. So my jadedness was at an incredible all-time high. We don't have to get in to litigate the details, but we would have these conversations and he knew where I was on things. And I remember one time he just blatantly proselytized to me in a conversation. And I was just like, that just doesn't happen very much from person to person. And I remember just being like,

man, I don't realize something that's happened to me. But I think it's like a reflection of John. John's empathy for people was like a real common denominator. Like the fact that he it became a thing where we didn't it wasn't serious like whenever it was. But we could talk about it in a way that was teasing and lighthearted. If we got into a like a subject that I knew was like a direct line to spirituality, I'd be i know what you're gonna do and he'd be like yeah i would but um yeah you did get the feeling like he he could convert you if you if you weren't careful and i mean that in a nice way like he he was always like his way was the best way and it was always like a come to this side kind of vibe that, by the way,

it was pretty seductive. Yeah. And it was, I mean, I think with sharks, he had this line on a house of Strauss. I was listening to that recently. And,

you know, Ethan asked him about like, what's the difference between hope and faith and sharks said, well, you can hope, you know, for good or bad things with faith. It's faith that things are going to work out.

And I think that sort of, you can hope for good or bad things. With faith, it's faith that things are going to work out. And I think that sort of illustrates his mindset with how he approached life. He just has faith. Faith in God, faith that things are going to work out in a good possible way. It kind of dictated who he is as a person. So he told us he was sick. I think it was spring 2021. April, right? Yeah. But he was sick for two months prior kyle something like that and didn't recover from it right and they couldn't figure out what was going on and they thought he had long covid and then uh he was just tired and

um they were just trying to get the right eyes on him the right tests on him and i think that's when it kind of that was when it was revealed what was actually going on. He was podcasting with us with like these, like, yeah, you know, back pain sometimes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When it wasn't physically

feeling good and that was kind of one of the big indicators. And then we get, we get word that it's way worse than long COVID. Then it becomes a question of,

well, wait a second, what does this mean? Like, that sounds like that's one of the worst cancers you can have. But it's, it's Charks and he's young and you think like, well, it's not going to, he's going to get out of this. Or, you know, he starts the chemo and it's like, well, the chemo will fix it.

Does the one round, didn't fix it. Did this second round, which I think was a lot more painful and a lot more agonizing all the way around. The crazy thing was he worked most of the time. And we were telling him not to work. I mean... I don't know. Yeah. I don't know how much more plain it could have been.

We made it incredibly explicit. Please don't work. We don't... Send us your laptop. We don't need anything. We just want you to get better. And he just... It goes back to what you said earlier. There's something about basketball, talking about it,

maybe even writing about it. He didn't really write that many pieces other than the one about fatherhood after he got diagnosed. But something about the dialogue, I think, kept him grounded because he just had a young son and that's all he could think about was I'm going to leave my wife and my son. I just had my son.

So I think he was throwing himself into different things. But I could feel him starting to lose after the second chemo and it didn't work out. That was the first time I was like, wait, what's happening here? And then you start talking about miracle treatments. But what do you remember from all that, Kyle? Yeah, this is like the part of it's the hardest to talk about. He definitely started to move into a phase of like really reflecting about his life and i i

honestly really think that he he flipped it in a way to start to think about how his situation could benefit other people and he used the same like sharp incisiveness in the way that he thought and quickly recognizing like patterns and things and like not literal patterns, but just he saw the landscape, the chessboard and wrote some things that I think are just going to like last. Like a couple of the pieces he wrote

like about reckoning with his mortality and talking about his son and down the road. Like those pieces are just like, I just feel like I'm going to revisit them forever, honestly. And yeah, it evolved to the point where he really, and you were talking about him like continuing to work

and like we were in Vegas and I was unsure if he was going to make it to Vegas. He really wanted to go. I wanted him to have that. Well, wait, go backwards. Because like April, May, he tells you you're doing this draft podcast.

When did he tell you he wasn't positive that that might have been the last episode? That was in the end of May? It was before the lottery. Or was that the lottery, but before the draft? Well, they got bad news when they were driving back from their treatment quarterback, as they were driving back from the their their their their treatment

quarterback as they were calling him and uh i think he just got to the point where he saw his finite time and was like this is i should be thinking about how i'm using it and um and that was what ultimately led to the stepping away and all that stuff which felt like i mean i just kind of started grieving him at that point which was like really hard um and it's when someone's sick for that long kevin i've talked about this a lot chris and i've talked about this I just kind of started grieving him at that point, which was like really hard. And it's when someone's sick for that long. Kevin, I've talked about this a lot. Chris, I've talked about this. You just kind of grieve a person a lot over time. And he but to tie it together, we he ended up in Vegas, which was a miracle.

I remember you texting. He did like two podcasts after. You're like, why is he there? Like he could barely walk. He literally if you saw him in vegas john could barely walk and that was because the tumors were like displacing like they were just displacing the bones in his legs he was like in incredible pain and walking like he was like in his 80s and had hip replacement like um but kevin i recorded a pod with him at the cosmo um which i listened to

on the plane because i didn't have anything to listen to. And it was just cool to hear him sharp and everything. But he and I were walking out and I thought he was okay. He was sharks. And I think that's kind of what you do with somebody when they're sick like that. You're like, they'll be around.

You can't convince yourself that they won't be. But he just got really upset and was telling me just the burden of being trapped in his own body during that time. And there was no break. you just you can't convince yourself that they won't be but he just got really upset and um was telling me just the burden of being trapped in his own body during that time and there was no break for the middle aspect of it and i was like do you ever get a break like when do you when do you like do you ever get one and he was like i do when i'm talking with you guys like like and that that was when it was like that was like the key piece to it i was just like yeah that's why he he he just and he decided to come back to the show.

And I knew it wasn't because he was getting better. It was just because he wanted to talk ball with us. And that was the thing he loved the most. Like, so. Yeah, I remember sometime in early May, we were texting about the Mavs. And at that point I thought he was, you know, he was done with pods,

but just still following to follow as a fan. And he was so excited talking about it. I was like, do you want to just come on the pod tonight? I have a spot. He's like, I'd love to. And then I felt bad I hadn't invited him. And then there's Charks on the Zoom, and we're taping at like 10 o'clock at night. And he was really good, like he always is.

But you could tell, like you could see on the Zoom, he obviously physically was starting to break down a little bit, but still had great analysis. And the Mavericks thing, I don't know. I believe in this stuff sometimes, but they basically make it to the conference finals. They had no business making it. And I don't know,

I think it lifted his spirits a little bit. Of course. That and the draft. I think those two things. I think he was throwing himself into that and it was pulling him out of the reality he was in, I think. It's like you said, Kyle,

you know, that was the escape. Yeah. I mean, transfer, it's just for the Charks' reason. I wanted them to win. Oh my God. I was definitely rooting for them. Yeah.

He was so excited about all that. It was really, it was fun. And it was sobering to hear him say, I mean, his frankness was one of my favorite things about him. Because John, I was talking with Barry about this. John would just tell me things. He would tell you things that were frank that um would surprise you sometimes like in like a social tact kind of a way but it was always you loved that about him the more you got to know him and um he was just uh like for example like he would talk to me about something i wrote

and he'd be like i don't really know why you need a 500 word diatribe a personal anecdote to make a point about uh herb jones and i was like oh you know that was just like he was that's just how john was he was just very honest but just so yeah so generous like i remember like every once in a while i would get into a political discussion with john or you we would have like one on slack and john would just be like yep that's just the way the world goes i'd be like i was like kid gloves man You want to just like kind of ease me into this a little bit. Oh my gosh.

What else do we need to cover here? I'm just glad he got that Vegas moment that you're talking about. I am too, man. That's the thing. I'm so glad.

John has... Because you ran into a bunch of the basketball community there. Yeah. That did seem like that was a good thing. It was a parade of people to see him and John sticks out because he's so tall i always had to

like really suck it up even slouching he towered over me get some strength shoes yeah i never got to play with him but everybody says john would like really could play too that's one regret i have but um yeah people it was just a parade of people. And John just had time for everybody. Like, I really mean that. You blow people, you round up. I think sometimes when people go, John was that way because my first interactions with John were on arguing with him on Twitter, A. But B, I was a Tatum believer.

I remember you had a talk about that. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. John wasn't in on Tatum. Love Jackson. And I emailed him. He messaged me and was like, email me. And dude, we would have full-blown back and forth. This is before I knew him about Kentucky basketball.

And he would ask me questions. He just treated everybody like they were the most important person. You hear people say that a lot, but it really was true. It's easy in professional basketball media to get very exhausted by basketball and just be like this is the last thing i want to talk about when i'm like off the clock pretty much or like maybe in the off season or on a saturday like sunday and you're not working or whatever and i just feel like john lived and breathed it and in a way like i'm really glad he got to to do it professionally for a while because he would have been doing it anyway

you know what i mean? He would have just had a Mavs blog. That's why he's good at it though. Yeah. But he would have just been like, I got a Mavs blog and maybe I coach volleyball or something like that. But I have a Mavs blog. Watching him, especially the last

15 months or so, we're all doing our jobs and sometimes you don't really want to do them or you're like, I don't feel like this tonight or oh my God, it's Sunday night, I got a podcast or any of that stuff. After watching him, I don't think I've complained about working in the past year.

How can you complain after that? I've never seen anything like that. And that piece that he wrote about being a dad, I think is among the best pieces we ever published dating back to Grandland, right? That's one of the five best things we've ever run and probably the most read. That's one of the pieces that more people

from more walks of life who have nothing to do with the ringer or basketball or anything will be like, I read this piece that you guys ran and it absolutely blew my mind, changed my life, led me to make different choices in my life. It is unbelievable the impact that piece had on people. Yeah, my parents and my wife and my daughter, they all read it. My daughter especially. It's one of those pieces,

you just feel like you know the person. And I think fortunately and unfortunately, it's going to be one of the things that lives on with them for 10, 15, 20 years, that that piece is going to be on the internet. I think that I was reading a lot of people's remembrances of him on Twitter yesterday. And one that jumped out, obviously, was Shay's. And Shay talking about John contacting him in Houston when there was obviously the hurricane and everything.

And that John was basically like, I'm in Houston. We're doing work. We're gutting flooded houses. I'm here. And it was just like an example of a dude who was really purpose-driven and made sure that his life mattered like all the time. And that's like kind of like, you know, I'm not a religious person. There's a lot of things that like,

when John and I would talk about that kind of thing, maybe it went over my head. But John's like, John gave his life a lot of meaning. You know, obviously his family, but just also like, he understood how to be in the present moment. And that was something that really resonated with me.

Ken, you knew his wife probably had all, it's definitely the best, but the strength that she showed during this whole thing, updating everybody about what was going on with him and those updates that were just heartbreaking. But I just thought she was an amazing lady. Unbelievable. What was it like to get to know her

over the course of the last two years? It was the same kind of thing. I mean, we went to Vegas and I had dinner with them. And they're just the type of the last two years. It was the same kind of thing. I mean, we went to Vegas and I had dinner with them and they're just the type of people that they will talk about you the whole dinner. If you'll like, they are that type of people. Like they, they were just asking me, grilling me, asking me about myself

and all this stuff and just, and you know, I, I, the thing about John, Melissa is just a miraculously strong person and so generous. And even in her grieving was saying, you know, saying, yeah, I hope this is how they were like in these, in these times that were like, just really bleak and just bottomless, just grief. She would, they just always make time to like, think about other people, just reflect it

outward and things like that. She was like, I hope you're happy that like, you know, you were a part of the shows and stuff like that. I was just like, how can you, why are you thinking about me right now? Like, it's just, it's a, it's an uncommon, but I think the thing that like with the piece that's hard is that like you were saying, John, John grew up and like he didn't have the family experience that he wanted. And I mean,

he just pursued that with like the fullest, wholest heart. And he was so excited to be a dad. And I have a son who's three months younger than Jackson. And Melissa was telling me when I was talking to her in Dallas the other day that John, at one point when their family life was kind of rolling and things were coming together and Jackson was born and they were happily married and he was like, I'm,

he was like, I'm living my best life. That's what he said to her. So, there's that, that side of it that is just really hard to grapple with.

But, the fairness of that, obviously, but he, he was somebody that was excited about being a dad and I think you can really see that in those,

those pieces. They're just special people. Does my son know you? Yes. I had the headline of that one. And Long Night of the Soul was the other one. Yeah.

All right. In Sharks' honor, Kyle and KOC and I are going to do a 2018 redraft. Because if we had asked him what draft should we redraft, he would had asked him what draft should we redraft he would have said 2018

right Luca he loved that draft he did and the story behind this draft you were the only one that weren't in the room for that right

no I was I was doing my dime drop stuff yeah we all got together we did a live watch party that you can find. It's on YouTube.

And John, I think, is sitting right behind me. And just as a company, we were just all in on Luca. And it was summer of 2018. It was really like, you know, The Ringer took a lot of shit

the first two years. It's like, it's not Grantland and what are these guys? And it was, you kind of had to at least prove who you are. How is this identity different than the old place? What are you trying to do?

And by, I think spring, summer 2018, it was pretty obvious. Like we had an identity. We were good at some stuff. And we had the Colangelo piece that summer. We were at the finals. We'd had a whole bunch of good things going and then we had everybody

in the chapel, which we called it the video place and we did a rewatch and we all loved Luca. You were in on Luca. Charks was in on Luca. I was like,

I will bet my baseball card collection on Luca. And we were just like, this is the dumbest thing ever. Like this guy was a 17 year old playing overseas, kicking ass. He won the MVP of a league with grown men. And people don't know if he's going to translate to the NBA.

What are we doing? So we're all in. And as we're there, Jason Gallagher, who was one of our main video guys at that point, huge Mavs fan and Sharks. And all of a sudden there's a trade. And the slow motion, like, oh my. Yeah, so Aiton goes first. Aiton goes first, Sacramento second.

We got Riley McEntee there, Sacramento Kings fan. Knowing that they're going to screw it up. Of course they do. They take Marvin Bagley. And now Atlanta's on the clock at three. And there's like slight rumors rolling around about a Dallas trade. And you can see it on the YouTube clip. There's a trade and the camera cuts to Gallagher who looks like he's going to have an orgasm. And they do the trade and it turns out it's Dallas has moved up to three

and Gallagher runs over and Chark stands up and they do this high five like they're on the team. But I'm really glad that moment exists. Yeah. So we are going to, we're going to redraft the 2018 draft. Chris Ryan's going to leave us. Thanks, Chris. You got it. When you ride transit, please be safe.

Yeah, be safe. Because what you do, others will do too. Others will do it too. So don't take shortcuts across tracks. Yeah, be safe. Because what you do, others will do too. Others will do it too. So don't take shortcuts across tracks. Don't do that. In fact, just don't walk on tracks at all. Not at all. Trains move quietly so you won't hear them coming. You won't hear them coming. See, safe riding sets an example. Yeah, an example for me. Because safety is learned. It's learned. Okay, give it up. Give what up? Really? Really, really. This message is brought to you by Metrolinks. What does possible sound like for your business?

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I forgot to mention this when Chris was here, but I'm going to do it now. He came to visit a couple times. I think one of the times was 2018. And, you know, when we have people that come in and they'll be like, hey, can we talk? And you're always like, uh, what's, it's everything. Okay. Or do they want to do a different version of their job?

You never know what it's going to be. So he was like, can I come by and see you? And I'm like, okay. And I'm a little nervous. I don't know what's going on. And he comes in,

he sits down at this couch. You guys have all been in that office. I think he sits down and he puts his arms, you know, back on the couch, Seven foot wingspan. And he's like, so how are you doing? And I'm like, I'm good. And he's like, I just kind of want to see what you did all day. He's genuinely curious about it. And I was like, yeah, so I'll come here. And he's like, so what's your day like? And he just started,

all of a sudden I was on like a Guy Raz podcast and he's just asking me questions about my day. And he's like, do you like it? Like, how hard is it to juggle all this? And he was just asking me these different things. And we talked for like a half hour and I was like, all right, I'm going to go see Jeff Chow. And he just got up and left.

And I was like, wow, that's never happened to me before in a good way. That was great. He just passed through and he asked some questions. I think that's part of the social thing that I was talking about. That was a childlike, what you're describing pinpoints it really well. It was like a childlike kind of a thing about him that was really

sincere where he would I forgot to tell this to you. We were at the G League Showcase, which is like one of the hardest, hardcore, nerdy places you could be to follow basketball. But we were there and John was like, John knew everybody, number one.

All the like scouts and executives, they were all talking to him. And John, I remember specifically John walking up to somebody and going, can you believe we do this for a living? He said that to the guy, like sincerely. And I just think that was kind of the childlike thing that you're talking about. I could tell stories about John all day. Well, now we're going to tell the story of the 2018

draft, courtesy of a redraft. There's a lot of great players in this draft. I don't know who goes first. Should Isaiah? Isaiah, you want to decide who goes first? We're literally going to pick him. Kyle, you go first. Alright. Okay. Wait, we should say

Miles Bridges is off the table. We're just not going to draft him. He's out. He's got a DNP for this draft. So you go. You have the first pick. If Luka wasn't number one, which he is unequivocally, I was going to say the guy that if he wasn't there

that John really, really loved in this draft was Jaron Jackson. He loved Jaron Jackson and loved Biggs in general. Love Chet, love Mobley, love JJJ, but it's Luka. I mean, Luka is a transcendent, all-time potentially Fugiers, but it's Luka. I mean, Luka's a transcendent, all-time, potentially Fugiers, top of the pyramid type player.

I mean, he's like special, special. So, obvious number one. If we did a 2010s draft, would Luka go first or would Giannis go first? I think you... We projected forward here. Who are you taking the rest of their career

just it was a 2010 you get everything they did and everything they're about to do I think Giannis is first I think it could be Luca with the creation aspect I would you line the ages up against each other though it's like Luca is doing different the two-way stuff with Giannis I think

you kind of end what he's accomplished it's hard to like not include that yeah innis. I think you kind of end what he's accomplished. It's hard to not include that in the data. I think you got to go. Yeah, I think you got to go Giannis, but it's definitely a debate. That's a good one. Okay. KFC, you're second. Trae Young.

Trae Young? Wow. Okay. You could go Aiton here. You could go Shea Gildas Alexander, but I'm going with Trae Young in part because of the playoff production. We saw him go into Philly in a big must-win game, drop 18 assists. We saw him next game

drops 39 in a game five. Game one against Milwaukee is a 48-point game. I mean, Trey's done it in the playoffs. I don't think you can say that about Gilgis-Alexander picking him over him. It's more theoretical, Trey's done it in the playoffs. I don't think you can say that about Gilgis Alexander picking him over him. It's more theoretical. Trey has his flaws on defense. We'll see if he can get better off ball with DeJounte Murray there in Atlanta this year, but I think it's very possible

we see the best version of Trey Young moving forward with DeJounte Murray in the Atlanta backcourt, assuming he totally buys in. The crazy thing about Trey, he's not even 24 yet. He'll turn 24 during this season, but he's banked four seasons and he's, this will be his age

24 NBA season. And you think like just about every player, player peaks 26, 27, 28

area. So how does he get better? What does he add, you think? More shooting off the ball, right, Kyle? That's going to be it with Trey. Tapping into his inner Steph instead of his being hardened

all the time, dominating the ball like Prime Houston. If you get to John F. Murray, he has no choice. Yeah, this is kind of the natural implied path. It's like, you're this size, you shoot like this, you have these ball skills like this. It's like, you would think he would go this direction. Just play more willing with another ball handler kind of the thing garland garland is going to be going through with mitchell which i think that dynamic will work i think it makes it that

they are going to flow into each other you would think so you would think that's direction he would go but i don't know that he's not the same efficient no one is uh spoiler alert it's steph in terms of like on off ball efficiency shooting it but you would think so he could be more efficient you know coming off screens handoffs

like he was at Oklahoma than he is sometimes jacking those 35 36 footers like if he tones those down and does more

you know maybe it helps him out I think the malleability to be built around I think that's kind of the thing with him if he's willing to be more

open to playing different styles, I don't think it's going to handcuff the way Atlanta builds their rosters. That's a big thing for him going forward. Would you take SGA over him? I thought about it. I kind of lean SGA over him, honestly, because we haven't seen, if we built around SGA and if you literally just

claw machine, pick Shea up, and put him in the same position with the same things built around him, how would we feel about Shea? That's a question for me. Trey had an over 34% usage rate the last three years. That was his average. My question is, can you actually win the title if you have a guard that has that kind of usage rate?

No. Which is why I think they made the Murray trade. And they'll play him off the ball, they'll try to rest him. And in general, like we say with Chris Paul every year, the small guards trying to win four straight playoff rounds is rough. So they're trying to save some miles on him. I'm not positive that would have been how I cashed in my chips for my one big trade

with DeJounte Murray, who is about to be paid two years from now. I don't know. The more I think about that trade and how anxious San Antonio was to get off Murray and just cash in on him, and then you look at some of the other trades. I'll be really interested to see how that works out.

I don't like making a trade like that. And this is my same issue with Minnesota. Unless I know I'm a contender. That was why I love the Mitchell trade. Because now for me, Cleveland is like a fringe contender, worst case scenario, or a possible contender with one move, right, this season. And I don't think Atlanta's a contender, worst case scenario, or a possible contender with one move, right? This season. And I don't think Atlanta is a contender yet. So that's what makes me nervous about that.

You go all in and it's like, what are you? You're like a sixth seed, seventh seed? Especially given how loaded the Eastern Conference is. Yeah. I mean, I wonder how much of it politically wasn't about appeasing Trey because Trey wanted the Jante murray he wanted him wanted to team up with him he wants to grow are you trying to appease somebody who just signed like a mega deal with you okay like at least you have common sense leverage right hey trey hold on man yeah be patient yeah we made the eastern conference finals already like we're

trying to build well that maybe that's the way they feel internally well we just made these finals and here's what we were missing to get past Well, maybe that's the way they feel internally. Well, we just made these finals and here's what we were missing to get past that team to make the NBA finals. It's weird. I almost feel like I flip-flopped on that trade

because I thought, wow, they got to Jean Tamura. That's amazing. He's one of the best 40 players in the league. Yeah. But after the Gobert,

it really made me reconsider this whole price of, if you're going to pay the price that it costs now to get people, what is the outcome? Is it just to be relevant or is it to actually try to win the title i think i think the mindset from the atlanta standpoint is this is going to reveal the best version of trey young uh having him in a backcourt with dejonte murray one of the best defenders in the league at that

position and a really good facilitator on offense who still might not be in his prime as a scorer, Atlanta could potentially feel like we are going to be the team that the next star wants to go to. So they're like, we've maxed this version of Trae Young out. Now we have to level him up. This is how we elevate him. It makes sense. And then sign and trade for some free agent.

But you have nothing to sign. They have to get the free agent. Well, it has to be free agent. Not like the guy, you know, it's not a Kevin Durant situation where you have to give up all the picks because you don't have the picks. It would have to be a sign and trade

for a free agent. So I think that's their plan. It's to show what they can be with a better tray. And you're in the 2008. We have Ray Allen and Paul Pierce.

Now it's time for us to go to the cheese stage. All right, I have the third pick. I gotta be honest. I really like Aiton in this spot. I like DeAndre Aiton. It's like a hot take.

He was sitting there in free agency for anybody. I watched him be a very important piece of a team that really almost won the NBA title. He's young. How old is he now?

Is he even 24 yet? He's in that 23, 24 range. Yeah, he turned 24 in July. I like some of the stuff he did defensively, being able to switch around and guard different types of players. He's no V-dubs. Your guy, Waminama.

You'll get there soon, Bill. I got it. Wamanyama? Just call him Victor. Wemby. Wemby is an easy one for you. Wemby. Wemby.

He's no Wemby. Yeah. Yeah. Lean on that. Yeah. But I just, I value what he does. And for some reason,

he became overrated because they didn't do well in the playoffs. But, I just think it's hard to find guys like him. I also, there's no stiffness to him. I see him at least

for the next five, six years being a flexible, athletic big who can jump out and guard different types of positions. And I think that's especially with the amount of centers and big guys that are coming in the league and that V-dubs is coming. But

I just want a big. I don't think, I can find guards. I can find SGA. I can trade for SGA. I can find other SGA's. How many Aitons are there? Well, how much belief

do you have in Aiton offensively to become more of a, like, let's say Chris Paul is retired. An Aiton needs to do more offensively as a creator.

Posting up or stuff from the perimeter. Have you seen enough from him there to feel confidence with him over SGA who is great defensively when he's locked in? I gotta be honest, I haven't watched SGA play in like three years. I don't even remember what he looks like.

You might be taking him three. I'm with you. I lean Aiton because of what we saw in the playoffs I have provability that this guy you can win if this guy's on your team counterpoint he's playing in a situation

devil's advocate here he's playing in a situation where he's kind of being led to water pretty intensely with a great point guard which this is a phenomenon where you know CP3 definitely schooled him on what his what he needed from him at that position and was set up i always think about parameters with players that aren't stars stars are the guys that can improvise beyond

parameters and do things and you trust them to create efficiently hayton if you're going to say he's a max guy you're going to assume that he probably either is going to be a three-level defensive deterrent, like a Giannis type or an AD type. Is he quite on that level in terms of mobility and getting high to disrupt shots? I don't know that he's quite there. More positional, right? He's more positional, which is good.

It's just the difference between him and those types of guys makes me wonder. Those are the ways you ding him. And the shooting has always been kind of hypothetical. It's never quite gotten there.

And I think their frustration with him was just that he never... They would love if he were shooting threes right now. He's not. Yeah.

So there's a lot of... You'd have Suns fans arguing, probably screaming at the pod right now. You're taking bridges over Aiton. Like they're taking bridges over Aiton. They would want bridges over Aiton right now, I think. That's interesting.

It's tough. Oh, yeah. I stand by it. You're up, Kyle. I'm going to go Shea here. I almost did. I don't think it's a bad pick. Man, what a bizarre situation he's in.

Is he going to be content waiting another year? He's been on, well, you know, he's tasted some good teams. He has playoff experience and we saw him. I think he has defensive upside. I think he has shooting upside. They just, the Thunder just hired Chip England. And I think that's huge for a roster full of guys who have shooting upside.

Shea's a special player. I think he has even more. 24 years old. Yeah, I know people are going to come at me, oh, Kyle loves Shea, Kentucky. No, I mean, he's objectively a great player. No, I was going to some of his rookie year games, and I was surprised they threw him in the Kawhi trade,

or the Paul George with all that. He was just kind of the free set of tires with all the picks, basically, and Presti was smart. Presti was like, I'm not doing this unless I get this guy. I really like him. Now I have regrets.

KFC, I did this on a podcast. I don't understand why he's not the next guy. If I'm the next, and I almost got Donovan Mitchell with whatever different packages, and you have OKC who loses Chet for the year, why wouldn't they just offer all the same stuff for SGA?

I feel like he's as good of an asset. He very well could be, because I think, Kyle, you hit the point on Aiton where you said he's in a perfect situation to maximize his game. SGA, he's not. He's on a team with a lack of spacing, and yet he's still one of the he is the league's most frequent driver at getting to the basket and one of the league's

most efficient despite being in a situation that isn't an ideal circumstance for him so if you plug him into a team as you're saying bill where he has you know four shooters around him on the court he has a great roller or pick and pop guy sGA suddenly could become the guy you're like, oh, no, no, it's not Trey No. 2 in this redraft. It's not Aiton. It's not Bridges. It's SGA, period. He could turn himself into that. It's just we haven't seen him in that environment yet. So if I'm another

team in need of a star... Do you think he's worth more than DeJounte Murray or less or right around the same? I'd say more than DeJounte Murray. I think so. Maybe more than DeJounte Murray. I think so. You know, maybe more than Donovan Mitchell, but probably not because I should have

taken him third. I had this discussion with some people recently. Donovan's playmaking evolution lately has turned the tide on that, I think. I think he kind of has to redeem himself defensively

because he's getting dogged all over the NBA landscape. I think it comes back. He had to have read all this stuff. He was so fun in college. Well, we'll see with SGA. He did play in two playoff series already and was pretty good in the second one. He was a Jerry West

guy, wasn't he? I feel like Jerry West is always a good sign. He just had it. You could see it even when he was 19 out there in the Clippers. It was like, oh, this guy. You could always see him, I'm sure, like at Clippers games. You always saw him working with Sam Cassell before games. Yeah, he has. A long time.

What do you got, KFC, for fifth pick? Let's go with Mikkel Bridges here. Maybe the best 3 and D player in the league. Better than 3 and D, though, because we've seen him do a little bit off the dribble for you. But, you know, great shooter, off the catch. Lucas Aries was tough for him. Now, the question is, is the Lucas Aries tough for anybody who's a human being?

Well, and that raises the question of, like, you know, what are the limits of perimeter defense against these megastars? There's only so much you can do. We see that with Marcus Smart in the finals against Stephen Curry. Marcus Smart was Defensive Player of the Year, but there's only so much you can do

against this level of talent. But I think Bridges and, you know, most series still is providing an incredibly important skills to winning basketball with his shooting. He can do stuff off the dribble for you. He's a good, smart, intuitive passer. And defensively, he's one of the best and most versatile. Some of the other guys left on the board,

I think you can make arguments for over him. But I'll go with Bridges. I think the 3-4-5 in some order had to be the three guys we had. I already regret my 8-and-pick. I'm going to have to deal with the media later and the fans.

But yeah, it's SGA and then 8-and-Bridges. I should have taken SGA. But if I had taken SGA, who would you have taken fourth? I'm right here. I actually had Trey fourth. Wow.

I was thinking about... What was your top four? I had Luka, Shea, 8- fourth I was thinking about what was your top four I had Luka, Shea, Aiton, Trey that was my top four I mean I did this quickly I didn't know I'm not gonna I got labored over it

but yeah that was my top four but so Bridges has played the most minutes of anyone in this class that's part of it too

9,661 plus all the playoff minutes a lot of injury prone guys after this. Yeah, really durable. He played 22 minutes in the 21 playoffs. 22 games, 32 minutes

a game. And then just from a durability standpoint in general, 82, 73 in the bubble season, 72 in the 72 game season 82 last year like really really

insanely durable for the three in deep position alright Kyle you're up this was a question I kind of debated with and I might call an audible here because it's tough if MPJ is healthy

the shot making he's basically and this is a Charks quote I mean he's basically like 6'11 clay. I mean, he's like that kind of shot maker. Crazy efficient, but he's coming off of and with a crazy injury history, too. So you have to weigh that in. I flirted between him and Jaron Jackson here. Oh, another healthy guy

yeah yeah I'm actually probably going to lean Jaron Jackson just because I think his defensive upside is pretty special and he had a huge off the bounce leap this past season in terms of getting to the rim and stuff like that I'm going to lean Triple J

here I think it's the right pick he turns 23 this season played 78 games this year I'm going to lean Triple J here. I think it's the right pick. He turns 23 this season. Played 78 games this year, but then he just got hurt. So when does he come back? Chris Vernon said on Mismatch recently that he thinks it will be earlier than expected. Okay.

It's foot? Or is it... What was the injury with Triple J? Knee. Knee, okay. Hard to keep up. Here's my fear with Triple J, and I think this is probably right around the right spot for him.

Last year he shot 41%, 41.5% field goal percentage. Foot. The year before. I was right. Yeah, foot, yeah. He made a face and I was right. 42.4% field goal the year before.

From three point, he was 32% last year. 4.4 free throws. 5.8 rebounds. But the defense is fantastic. When he's not fouling. But he's still got a long way to grow. My fear with him is,

does he become like, not just from this draft but maybe even from this decade the most frustrating I really thought this guy I thought all the pieces

were going to come together and it just all of a sudden now he's 31. And it's like oh you kind of are who you are. I mean Wiggins was that guy

for a long time. But Wiggins had there were some effort things and different challenges yeah. He just took quarters and halves off. And if you went to a game, you could watch it in person.

Jackson gives a shit. Oh, yeah. I just wonder what is he offensively ultimately? I mean, we know he's a sharpshooter. He can handle that. Creation hasn't developed necessarily, but he can shoot it. God, the Warriors-Grizzlies dynamic is just going to be

unbelievable. They really don't like each other. It's awesome. And he's center of it. Who do you got eighth KFC? We're on seven?

No, we're eighth. Kyle went first. Did I go sixth? I think we might have skipped. Did we skip me? I think we did. Oh. Did we skip me? I think we did.

Oh, yeah. We skipped you. I thought you... Did you pick again? Well, we got... Just let me reset. Luca, Trey, Aiden, SGA,

Bridges, Jackson. Right. We skipped me. So, I'll take Jaren Jackson. Yeah! All right! I'm going Twin Towers! Aiden and Jaron Jackson.

What a Jedi move you just did. Imagine if Kyle did that if he was an NBA draft GM. He just drafted a spot ahead of himself. I said that, well, you got me to argue the thing. Yeah, all right. I'm taking Jaron Jackson. All right, now you have to take your backup. I'll go MPJ, just because I think what MPJ does is special. Are you willing to bet on it? I'll go MPJ just because I think what MPJ does is special. Are you willing to bet

on it? I mean, it's a risky bet. We've seen him tweet out the league's in trouble and all that stuff. And he's a funny guy. We know that. But he's a super talent, man. The question... He's come a long way in terms of defensive attentiveness. He was way, way,

way behind on that when he came into the league. How many career games do you think he's played? It's not high. I mean, is it under 120? What do you think, KOC? Under 100? 125. What a guess.

Pretty good, huh? 19 points a game in the 2021 season. How many guys his size are that level of shot maker in the league, though? I mean, it's really a short list. He is like, when we were talking about the Mitchell trade, about what the benefits are of getting him. It is nice to have the guy who can go toe-to-toe with the other team's best scorer.

I think Porter does have it in him. Him on paper is like the perfect Jokic teammate. Oh, yeah. I just wonder, you've missed basically two seasons now. him on paper is like the perfect Jokic teammate. Oh, yeah. I just wonder, like, you've missed basically two seasons now. And you're not even in your mid-20s yet. That makes me super nervous. Let's take one more break and then we'll finish the draft.

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To hear more stories of recovery, visit CAMH.ca. KFC, you're up. Eighth pick. We'll zoom through these now. Let's go with Robert Williams. Time Lord. The Time Lord! Yeah, let's go. Wasn't expecting that. Let's go with Time Lord here. Really?

Yeah, I mean, the defensive impact with him, the vertical threat on offense, and the playmaking. Shredo, I mean, the defensive impact with him, the vertical threat on offense, and the playmaking. Should we know Obama, KFC? Should we know Obama? I mean, I got Obama

stored for later, Kyle. Let's let you assholes take him. But I got Robert Williams here. Some upside with the eighth pick. Yeah.

If he can keep staying in the court. I mean, that's really the question with him at this point is can he stay in the court? Can he stay in the court? Other than that, you know who he is him at this point. Can he stay in the court, Robert Williams? Can he stay in the court? Other than that, you know who he is,

and you know what he offers your team to play winning basketball. By the way, Robert Williams, can he stay in the court? Stay in the court for us. A lot of these guys coming up. I can't believe this guy fell to me at number nine. The one, the only, Jalen Brunson. Fresh off a $105 million contract or whatever he signed with the New York Knicks.

As you know, I value all my decisions with player evaluation. Can I win with you in the playoffs? Can I succeed with you in the playoffs? What are you going to look like in a playoff series? I know the answer with Jalen Brunson. He's a very effective player on a playoff team. And I don't think he can be the first or second best player,

but if he's your third best player, I might have a chance. The problem with Dallas last year was he was their second best player. Yeah. Probably for the Knicks because he might be their best player. That's why we're going to pick them to go 39-43 this year. But he's such a unique player, and he's had a chip

on his shoulder his whole career. Some of the stats with him are just incredible. The paint stats and his shot chart doesn't resemble any other guard in the league. He's one of the league's most efficient isolation scorers. Oh my god. Shocking sometimes.

I know what he is and I know what an asset he is. So anyway, that's my pick. Who do you got, Kyle? I was going to say he was in a perfect situation next to Luka.

I will see how it goes. Yeah, hopefully that's not like the bad career move decision where it's like, yeah, maybe it's a good idea to leave Luka Doncic. Big playmakers for his player.

I think he's going to elevate those young Knicks guys. I hope so. I would like to see that. I like watching him. I had he's going to elevate those young Knicks guys. I hope so. I would like to see that. I like watching him. I had Rob actually ahead of right there. So, and I was debating between,

would you rather have Simons or Brunson? Because I think Simons is a little younger. That's an interesting kind of question. He's underrated. Yeah. I'm going to go with Kevin Herter right here. Wow. Whoa. Wow.

Whoa. Wow. Oh, my God. That's a shocker. I need to take a walk. Kevin Herter. Well, I'm in the Herter hive, so make me feel good. Herter, I think, has playmaking upside.

I think that he has more of that than he got to show with Trey because of how Trey shows. I think he gives a shit on defense, whether he's good at it or not. I don't think the Kings are going to be very sneakily, not even sneakily, very fun to watch this year, I think. Only 24 years old, KFC. They're not going to be able to stop anybody. The Butcher's boy, Kevin Herter.

And just a great size. I've always really liked him as a player. I've always been higher on him than other people. Maybe Russo is the only guy who's higher. No, I'm right there with you guys. I wanted the Celt liked him as a player. I've always been higher on him than other people. Maybe Rusil is the only guy who's higher. No, I'm right there with you guys. I wanted the Celtics to trade Grant Williams for him.

And everybody thought I was doing a bit. I'm like, I'm not doing a bit. I want to trade for Kevin Herter. I like Grant Williams, but I think Herter's skills, that's another playoff guy to me. Even if he kind of sucked

in the last playoff. Don't worry about that. Yeah. KOC's kind of not giving a Herter opinion. He's just looking that. Yeah. KFC's kind of not giving a herder opinion. He's just looking confused.

Oh, come on. He's fine. He's fine. He's a good, not great shooter. Yeah. 39% from three isn't terrible.

It's pretty good. Yeah. Jesus, Kev. Seriously. 39, not good enough for you? Rebounds a little bit. All right.

What do you got, KFC? Anthony Simons. Okay. Upside pick here with him. KFC loves those good stats, bad team guys. Gravitates to them like a month of flame.

I mean, I'm not taking Bomba here. Oh, boy. I mean, Simons has gotten way better every single season of his entire career. And if you're projecting forward with him,

he's still just a baby. He's going to be 23 this coming year. He showed off with Dame out last year, some developed playmaking chops, ability to create for others a little bit. But more than anything, that dude's a bucket getter. He goes from eight points per game to nearly 18 points. I'd say I really like this pick. A lot of nodding going on with that.

I think Simons, like if you're projecting the Blazers this year, they're not going to be some finals contender. But finally, Dame, you know, now he has this young guy and Anthony Simons replacing CJ. And now they have Jeremy Grant, Nasir Little, and all these long-arm defenders to surround that smaller backcourt with. So good for Dame if he's able to come back and stay healthy. If Simons continues to

get better he can you know fill that gap left by cj and and if you know some of these other guys if jeremy grant really finds a hybrid version of the denver and detroit version of himself portland's going to be competitive they're not a finals contender but they're they're going to be competitive and a lot of that has to do with anth Anthony Simons and the way he's developed as a bucket getter. I like it. I'm going to get a little weird here, because there's some other more obvious picks, and I don't really care. In honor of Charks. Don't care.

Herter was a good one for that. He loved Herter, too, by the way. He did. I really like DeAnthony Melton oh he's nice and he's my next pick I thought that was a typical

fucking sneaky Darryl move where he I remember when he traded for Lowry and Lowry

Memphis a million years ago Memphis was just like we just took another point guard does anyone want Lowry Darryl's like,

I'll take him. And just immediately got an asset. But I think Melton, there's a world with that Sixers team. If they can get Harden remotely where he was three years ago with Melton and with Thibel, where they might actually play real defense.

You know, Harden accepted. But they would have two other guys to basically guard whoever the other team has and be patrolling the paint. Harris, who can be okay defensively,

but I just, Melton, if you could have picked a player from scratch, what do the Sixers need? Oh, yeah. It was somebody like him who doesn't need the ball,

who just does all the little things, who's just steady and good at his job. Oh, go ahead, Kevin. An annoying as hell on-ball defender. Really disruptive. Really good hands. Well, how about Tybo and him together now? And he's stronger positionally.

If you're like Chris Paul, you're like, oh man, we're playing these guys tonight? God damn. Their defense off the bench, you got Thibel, Melton, Tucker. Right. PJ Tucker.

They got some tough guys. Even Harold. So put those three within Bede and you can survive with Harden defensively. They have so much lineup flexibility. If Doc Rivers

figures it out, Sixers, I mean, Doc will be gone by Christmas. Isaiah's laughing out loud over there. Big if.

I mean, you could be right, Bill, but whoever the coach is, the Sixers have the upside to become the favorites in the East. Oof. Yeah, it all depends on what we're getting from Harden. 100%.

NBA history says Harden is who he is at this point. But they have everything else. Everything else you need. I can't think of a single late career rejuvenation past a certain age. It just never happens.

Is Harden a unique case, though? Maybe. I mean, Tom Brady's playing quarterback at age 45. LeBron's going to pass 100,000 minutes. What about Chris Paul?

Chris Paul, his value drops and then goes right back up. I just don't know if Harden's going to be dedicated like those guys are. Chris Paul and LeBron were legitimately dedicated. How about the fact

Harden and B, they still had the league's most efficient pick-and-roll duo despite Harden being in the state that he was. The number one in the NBA. The Harden and Bede pick-and-roll duo.

Is that factoring in foul generation? Is that part of that? I mean, it's like every pick-and-roll. I see the whole stack case, the nerd case, anything you want to throw at me,

but can you break that team in a playoff series if those are your best two guys? That's what they have to prove. What happens when, like what happened in the Celtics those last couple finals games

when the Warriors just like broke them mentally and physically? Yeah. And they ran out of gas. How much will it have to do with Embiid getting better too? Because we can't forget

he's gotten better every single season of his career too. Yeah. And he's adding more perimeter stuff this summer. Oh. And Embiid could get better himself. Maybe. Or he might have peaked.

Alright, who made that pick? I made that pick. You made that pick. Let's rush to the rest here. I'm going to go Wendell Carter Jr. I think he's one of the most classically overrated by the media players. Everybody loves him because a lot of what he,

I think he is a good player. I think he offers a lot. I think this year is going to be particularly interesting now that they have Paolo and Franz has grown as a playmaker. I just think that roster is really like, you could say something wild if you wanted to. Sneaky playing interesting, maybe even depending on how things go.

I like Wendell Carter, Gene. He's another one. He's 23. He turns 24 in April. Talk about like a baby. He's been in the league four years. I think that Chicago trade, like 10 years from now,

we're going to be like, whoa, that was a bad trade. That might have been Chicago's one big mistake. Wendell Carter and two lottery picks? Yeesh. And wasn't, wasn't Franz one of the lottery picks? Was that one of them?

I think he was. Maybe I'm wrong, but. If that's the case, yeah, that's bad. Well, remember they had the two, they had five and they had eight. They took Suggs with their own pick and then they took.

They took Franz with eight. Franz with the other. So just Franz straight up for Vucevic is a freaking steal. And they got all the other stuff. They got another pick coming from that trade. So

I think we all understood the trade when it happened, but that's a case of yikes. They haven't re-signed him for a reason. Chicago that is. He's We watched him get played off the floor

in a bunch of different games who do you got next KFC how many more picks we doing let's do we'll do this round and one more

and we're done okay I'll go with Colin Sexton I was waiting waiting to see when he would go he has one

one down year Isaiah's laughing last year I was saying, you know, if you want to tank in the short term, a good move is to bring Colin Sexton in and say, go to town. Score 25, baby.

Let's go. He is a proven good stats, bad team guy. Come on in. I think he can have an iter. I mean, his shooting stats are pretty good. And the eye test, like he... Plays hard. Yeah, he does.

He gives a shit. I don't want to make it seem like we're dumping on him. We just haven't seen him on a good team. What is he in a winning context? I think he's like a Jordan Clarkson. I think he's a 25, 27 minutes off the bench, combo guard, can carry your second offense and sometimes play crunch time.

I think that's where he ends up, right? I think that's fair. Disabusing him of who he thinks he is is going to be the real challenge for his career. If this trade didn't do that for him, then he's going to have to have another one. I can't believe

this guy's still on the board. I'm so excited. The key to the Rudy Gobert trade. That's right. Jared Vanderbilt. Whoa! Yeah. I had him 17 on mine, so I was far off. That's right. Jared Vanderbilt. Whoa. Yeah. I had him 17 on mine, so I was far off. 23 years old. His per 36,

my friends, he was 9 and 12 for per 36 with two steals a game. He's weirdly active defensively. He's one of those guys, league pass, jumping around. He always jumped out. He was weirdly active defensively. He's one of those guys, league pass, jumping around.

He always jumped out. It was like, wow, this guy. What's he up to? And I think Utah really wanted him in that trade. I think that was a big piece of that. Like, all right, first we want all of your picks and then we want Vanderbilt. We're not doing this without him.

Danny hangs up the phone. We need Vanderbilt. Yeah, I just like him I think he's somebody that could be in a playoff series so I'm a fan alright last round one of the foremost

Vando guys here speaking this is tough I was going between two or three guys here I'm thinking about

in the playoffs Knicks fans are furious by the way they're just in disbelief there's one that I he's gotta go one of these. Knicks fans are furious, by the way. They're just in disbelief. He's got to get one of these three. Knicks fans just cannot believe. They're like, wait, wasn't this the Mitchell Robinson draft? Knicks fans, it was.

It actually was the Mitchell Robinson draft. Go ahead, Kyle. Are you guys going to run me out of town if I take Gary Trent Jr. here? I don't mind it. Not at all. I like the pick. Top three available. Hell of a defensive player.

Tough as hell. Shoots the ball. Love him. Play the pick. Top three available. Hell of a defensive player. Tough as hell. Shoots the ball. Love him. Playoff guy. Yeah. Yeah. You can play him. You can keep him on the floor.

He can guard bigger players. Off the dribble too. Also, when Masai trades for you, your stock goes up. Sure. It's like Masai likes you. Something's there. Something's going on.

All right, KFC, last pick. It's got to go with Mo Bamba. I knew it the perfect I mean I have no choice oh my god the perfect I mean you can't say

Mitchell Robinson can shoot threes Bamba can oh my god roasted how old is Mo Bamba now 19 right KLC he's 24

so he's 25 in May young chap and he's gonna be a senator someday I'm sure right so just just an exemplary guy. So still on the board, other than Miles Bridges, who's not on an NBA team, so we didn't draft him.

Among other reasons. Bruce Brown. Landry Schammett. Josh Okoji. Dante DiFincenzo. Aaron Holiday. Lonnie Walker. Grayson Allen, Marvin Bagley. That's the huge glaring.

I thought you were, are you out now? Because you've been teetering on keeping your stock. Weren't there tweets, Bill? I feel like there were tweets about Bagley Island. Are you out or in? What's up? We might have to go one more round. How about Jay Sean Tate?

I didn't say him either. Yeah, he wasn't on my list. Yeah. That's a sleeper. Robinson's got to go here. I'm a little worried about the health. He's only played 117 games, somehow less than Michael Porter Jr. Actually, you

know what? That's terrible. Call back my card. Call back my card. Bring back my card. Wait, no. I'm not taking him. So Mitchell Robinson is still on the board. Mitchell Robinson's out. He's out. He dove and tackled. I'm going to take Dante.

Wow. The fact that first of all, I liked what he did on the Bucs. I thought there was potential there, but I also understood why they had to get rid of him because once the Bogdanovich thing fell apart. The fact that Golden State was like, not only do we like this guy,

this guy is going to be an important piece for us because he knows how to play basketball and he fits in with what we do. For the smartest team in the league to say that, that has value to me. And I think he's going to be really good for them.

As you know, I'm not aware of his home where they cut my heart out in the finals. I'm not the biggest fan of that team right now. But I think he's going to be really good for them.

He could restore his value. Yeah. For sure. And be the best version. Mitchell Robinson, if I knew I was getting 60 games a year from him, I would have taken him there.

So, there you go. All right. You want to wrap it up or do you want to take Mitchell Robinson with the last pick? Yeah, I'll take Mitchell Robinson with the last pick.

It's good. Jay Sean Tate, underrated, undrafted. You're taking Jay Sean Tate? Bruce Brown is in there too. I'll take Bruce Brown. How about Kenrich Williams? Oh, love me some

Kenrich Williams for sure. Bruce Brown. He might be better than Bruce Brown. So, what would Sh? Oh, love me some Kenrich Williams for sure. Bruce Brown. He might be better than Bruce Brown. So what would Sharks have, what was his top four, you think? Other than Luka, obviously one. Luka won SGA too, probably. SGA too? I think I had to talk him into SGA.

I'm trying to remember. I know Triple J. Triple J would be up there for sure in the top four. Yeah. Oh, you think he would have had him in the top four? He loved him. I mean, he might have had him three. It was You think he would have had him in the top four? He loved him. I mean, he might have had him three. It was high.

I'd have to go back and look. Probably maybe above eight. He had like weird unicorn, like strange multi-position guys was kind of his jam. He knew bigs really well. I told this story that he hadn't seen Mobley yet. And I was like, watch this game. And he texted me like 10 minutes later and he was like, he needs to go number one. He's special.

I was like, that quick? Really? He was just really, he had an eye for that stuff. So yeah, love Biggs. Love that dude. Love Charks. All right, that's it. If you want to check out the stuff

that Charks did on The Ringer, we have a special page that you can find pretty easily on our website. It also has a link to his wife's CaringBridge. It has a link to the GoFundMe, which, man, what is that up to now? Almost 200K. We're taping this on a Monday. I think it's over 200K.

So the generosity from the public out there has been unbelievable to watch. So we're taping this. It is 530 on a Monday. What is it up to? 240,000 right now. Wow. 240,000 and climbing. We were hoping,

one of the reasons we wanted to do a special podcast for Charks was because we were hoping that maybe that would inspire people. That started with a $50,000 goal. Kirk Henderson, Mavs Moneyball, started that up at like a 50K goal. Almost a quarter mil right now. Unbelievable. Great stuff.

We're going to really miss him. We hope you enjoyed this podcast. Thanks to Chris Ryan for joining as well. And thanks to Isaiah for joining us short term. Isaiah Blakely, we pulled you into emergency duty. We appreciate it though. Thanks. And thanks for listening.

And thanks for all the nice feedback and the notes and everything that everybody sent us about, about our guy. All right. Thanks to Isaiah Blakely and Kyle Crane for producing.

Thanks to KOC and Kyle and Chris for coming on and talking about our guy Charks. Thanks to everybody who donated to the GoFundMe for the Charks family. It is over $250,000 and climbing,

just incredible stuff. I'm speechless. I didn't mention this during the podcast. I have a Simmons Family Foundation and we create scholarships with it. And one of the scholarships we created was at the University of Texas at Austin at the Moody College of Communication.

It is for a graduate student to go into long form storytelling. And we named it after Charks. It is the Jonathan Charks Fellowship. Sadly, he's not going to be able to mentor this person that was going to be part of it. I told him about it in the spring, maybe round three of the playoffs. We're talking about basketball. I kept trying to find out what was going on with his health. He kept steering it back to basketball, which is what he always did. And eventually I was like, I got to tell you something. And I told him about the fellowship and he was the most excited I've ever heard him. And he was so excited to work with this person.

So I'm sad that that's not going to happen, but it lives on at the school that he loved, that he went to. Kevin Durant was his favorite player. School's in Texas. That's where he's from. And I'm psyched that at least the Jonathan Charks Fellowship will carry his name, plus all the great pieces he wrote for The Ringer, the podcast that he did for us, and most importantly, that piece about fatherhood, which is one of the best pieces that we've ever run at the Rio Grande so rest in peace Jonathan Charks we're going to miss you I'll be back on this feed on

Thursday talking football see you then We saw. I don't. We saw.