The Bill Simmons Podcast - Part 1: 10 Burning NBA Questions With Kevin Clark, Kevin O’Connor, Raheem Palmer, John Jastremski, and Wosny Lambre

Episode Date: June 22, 2022

(1:27) Who should the Magic take no. 1? | With Kevin Clark (13:33) Best prospect outside of the top 4 | With Kevin O'Connor (26:21) 2023 NBA betting odds | With Raheem Palmer (41:01) What should the Knicks do? | With John Jastremski (54:32) Should the Jazz make a trade? | With Wosny Lambre Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Kevin Clark, Kevin O’Connor, Raheem Palmer, John Jastremski, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up next, we're in the middle of one of my favorite weeks of the year. The NBA draft is coming. It is a special two-part edition of the Bill Simmons Podcast on this Tuesday. 11 guests, so many topics. I can't wait. It's all next. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer.

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or visit rg-help.com. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. New rewatchables. We pushed it to Wednesday. It's coming Wednesday night. Chris Ryan and I, we did the Untouchables. 35th anniversary. A classic.

Can't wait to talk about it. So if you missed the rewatch, let's go check that out. There's also going to be a new Prestige TV podcast on Wednesday. Me and Sean Fantasy and Joanna Robinson are going to talk about The Old Man, a show that I absolutely love. So stay tuned for that. Coming up on this podcast is a special two-parter getting ready for Thursday night, one of my favorite nights of the year. Part one, we're going to talk to Kevin Clark, Kevin O'Connor, Raheem Palmer, John Jastrzemski, and Big Waz. I have 11 burning questions in all spread over two parts.

We're going to tackle the first five next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. Kevin Clark from The Ringers here. Die hard Orlando magic fan. He was on Kevin O'Connor's podcast recently. Steve Cerruti talking about what he wanted the magic to do. There's been some drama. We're taping this. It is 1245 Pacific time.

There's been a little drama. Kevin Clark, uh, Palos, Palos odds are dropping. Yeah. I, this is very strange. I have a question. You follow this more closely than are dropping. Yeah, this is very strange.

I have a question. You follow this more closely than I do. Is the betting market predictive? Have we had late? Because I feel like when I follow the NFL draft through this and they say, oh, the odds are dropping, it never really means anything. I would very seriously doubt this is anything but a little bit of noise.

It might be a rumor and then people just feeling like there's a ton of value. But we are going to do... Until it drops to dead even with Jabari, then we'll know something really funky is going on. Because there's a lot of people that work for an organization. It's very easy for word to truck around. So we're going to assume that it's just a little noise, just people trying to grab some value. We're going to assume that it's just a little noise, just people trying to grab some value. We're doing burning questions here today on the pod. Your burning

question is, what should the Orlando Magic do with the first pick in the draft? What do you want them to do and what should they do? They should do two things. They should reach out and see if they can get the second pick in the draft and still take Chet Holmgren. If that is not possible, because it sounds like OKC wants Chet, so we'll just investigate it. But if that's not possible, then I would take Chet Holmgren with the first overall pick. That is my overwhelming desire.

That's what they should do. That's what I want them to do. I think the conversation about this draft has gotten a little bit out of whack over the past couple of weeks where people have said, OK, well, there's not a generational prospect. This isn't like a franchise saving

draft. But on the other hand, in the same breath, people will say, oh, by the way, Chet has some of the best defensive instincts I've ever seen. He's 7'4". He has a great handle. He has a mid-range game you haven't seen yet. He can shoot the three. Obviously, 195 pounds worries me. I don't need him to show up

like Bryson DeChambeau in the first week of the season. We're going to be fine. Wendell Carter can take some of the tough matchups early on in his career, take the pressure on him a little bit. This is not blood sport. We don't have to enter him into single combat here. He can take some time.

The Magic have no expectations for this year. At this point, KOC had asked Cerrututi and I over the weekend if we'd be disappointed if it was Jabari. And at that point, I had talked myself into Jabari being a decent selection. At this point, I've watched so much of Chet. Now, again, you have to watch the YouTube stuff. They can get you high on anybody.

But when I watch Chet, I see a guy who has so much potential that I'm getting worried that we may not pick him. Do you like my weird body Al Horford analogy? I do. I do like it. I think it's pretty good. I mean,

as we've talked about, you know, it was funny because I heard you make the same comment on Sunday night with Russillo that the Charks had made in May about how Chet is anytime and Kyle Mann make the same comment on Sunday night with Russillo that the Charks had made in May about how Chet is anytime and Kyle Mann made the same point. Anytime someone is sort of on the

cutting edge of where the game is going, there's no comp for them. And the comp that they made at that point was someone like Luka where you kind of have to put everything in a little bit of a melting pot and say shades of this, shades of this, and you end up getting four guys who have nothing in common with each

other. And so, yeah, I mean, the Al Horford thing fits, but I think that you're just looking at a little bit of a different guy, somebody we've never really seen before. And I know that this is the kind of thing, we say it, any guy who's over 6'7", I would go, ah, if he was born in 1970

he'd be a totally different guy, but like this is it, man. This is what happens if you're 20 years old in 2022 and you're a legit 7 foot is you can kind of do it all. This is the modern game summed up into one person, Bill. The funny thing with this pick for Orlando is you

have the pedigree of Rashard Lewis 2.0 and Jabari. You had Rashard Lewis. He's a much better version of him. And then Chet, just tall, lanky, weird, can't define him. He's clearly something. There's no comps. It feels like you've taken that guy six, seven times. And then Paolo really does a lot of the same stuff that Franz was doing for you as a rookie, right? He's a tall guy who can create off the ball. He's a forward.

He can play both positions. And he's just a really skilled offensive player. Do you feel like Paolo and Franz could play together? Does that make sense to you in your head? Yeah, I think so. And I think that, you know, it was interesting through natural best over the weekend, but I do think that they can fit. Franz had to do so many different things last year. And at one point he was basically just doing it

all. At one point when Markel came back, um, he became, he, he touched the ball a lot less and had to morph into those ways. I think that he's probably a better player when, when the offense runs through him a little bit more, as we saw. I mean, there were times last year, I talked about this all the time, I went to a game at the Barclays Center, and it was him and four Lakeland Magic players

because of COVID. Like, that was it last year. And sometimes it was just him and four bad players. It wasn't even COVID-related. It was just him on the floor with a bunch of crappy players. So I think they could work together. You know, Paolo's passing is really good.

And to be honest with you, dude, like, fit is one of the last things on my mind right now. Like, the only way that the Magic

propel themselves forward is to get a franchise-changing superstar. And I'm willing to bet that any of these guys can work it out. You know,

I've heard the argument that Jabari would help the backcourt because there's not enough shooting. I really don't care about that necessarily. I really don't care about the... I love this current roster and I love the fact that they do have guys who, if there was a superstar,

would probably be in the mix to have to be third, fourth, fifth best players, no legitimate contender. But I'm looking for superstar potential in this draft and I do think Paolo and Franz could play together, but I don't really want to find out, frankly. The Magic have, I don't know if you knew this, but a little bit of a macabre...

Macabre? Macabre. Macabre. Macabre. Macabre history. Chris Webber. I've noticed. Had him.

Traded him. Shaq. Get for Penny Hardaway. Well, I'm just saying. You had Chris Webber I've noticed had him traded him Shaq get for Penny Hardaway well I'm just saying you had Chris Webber you traded it for Penny Hardaway three firsts

you had Shaq but you really only had him for what was that four or five years you had Dwight Howard which was the right pick and a great pick but he ended up

leaving eight years later what is who is the one out of these three guys that you feel like I don't know if I can trust him. I've been hurt before. I could see that person leaving us and us being bitter about it later.

Yeah, so part of the Chet thing to me is that he fits in with Suggs already. Suggs did not really blow my socks off in his rookie year, but I think that he's still a culture guy. He's still going to be a piece of it. They've known each other for a long time. They're still friends. Chet was in his interview year, but I think that he's still a culture guy. He's still going to be a piece of it. They've known each other for a long time. They're still friends. Chet was in his

interview yesterday talking about how he still seeks guidance from Suggs. I think that helps building that community and basically turning over the franchise to those guys and saying, this is yours. You can't leave. You feel like Chet would be loyal? I think so.

I think so. Anybody's liable to leave Orlando. Dwight said he was never going to leave. feel like Chet would be loyal. I think so. I think so. Yeah, I mean, I think so. Anybody's liable to leave Orlando. Dwight said he was never going to leave and then he left. The one thing I'll say is that I don't have the scars that you think I would have about those things. I mean, yes, Shaq

left. Yes, Penny left. Dwight left, certainly. But while they were there, they made the finals, both of them, in 95 and 2009. And I think that there are teams like the Kings, like the Hawks, the damn Hornets, who would beg for that when I think about the first overall pick. I think it's always sort of suggested a bit of a franchise renaissance. The entire franchise changes if we only get Shaq and we don't get Penny. If we never get Dwight Howard and we end up with Emeka Okafor in that draft, for instance. So I don't really have a negative feeling about this. And so, listen, I think in the modern NBA, Giannis is going to stay in Milwaukee for a long, long time.

I think that the way things have changed, and it's funny because at the end of the Dwight era, one of the executives made the point to him. I don't know if this ever came out, but basically like, dude, this is a new era. You don't have to play in LA. You don't have to play in New York. You don't have to play in Chicago or Miami. You can make it. You can make anything. You can make any market the biggest market in the world when you're there.

And I think that was only starting to shift in 2012 when he left. And I think it's really happening now where you can make anything the center of the basketball universe. And you don't necessarily have to go to a major market. You can make anything a major market because of the internet, because of social media, because of just brand power and all the different things you can do. So in a weird way, I'm less worried. When Shaq left Orlando, I think he called it something like a little puddle or something like that. He was just really demeaning about it. The city's grown, but also just like, no one really talks about NBA markets that way anymore. OKC had that core together for a while, and then they were able to just hit the hard reset button.

I'm less worried about being betrayed than maybe I was about a pick 15 years ago. I like your angle about Orlando has actually been way more competent than it gets credit for. I think that's a good foothold for you. It's true.

If I went up to a random Hawks fan or Hornets fan and was like, alright, our last 30 years for yours, they're not even thinking about it. They're absolutely taking it. Yeah, it's funny how some franchises have identities, right? Orlando's identity. Wizards, same way, yeah. Oh, Wizards is the all-time rock bottom

of last four years of anybody you come up with. Your identity is like, we had these things where it really seemed incredibly promising and it didn't work out the way we thought, but there was still some stuff happening. Even the

McGrady-Gran Hill. Yes. You know, that worked out probably about as badly from a love standpoint as it could have worked out. But,

you had McGrady who for three straight years, McGrady versus Kobe was a legitimate argument. I think actually, statistically, McGrady probably wins. The first

Christmas Day game for LeBron in his career was at Orlando because it was going to be McGrady-LeBron. And I kind of feel like we've glossed over that. Obviously, the injuries and the surgeries and the trade. McGrady was still a hugely productive player when he got to

Houston, but it changed the narrative a little bit. McGrady was still a hugely productive player when he got to Houston, but it changed the narrative a little bit. McGrady was one of the best scorers in modern basketball history. When he played in Orlando, he just didn't have the help. I mean, Juwan Howard trades, all of this desperation stuff.

Once we found out that Grant Hill wasn't going to work. But no, I think there's an identity. I had a friend, I have a friend, who came over from England a couple years ago and was my coworker at the WSA. And he was saying like, explain Orlando to work. But no, I think there's an identity. I had a friend, I have a friend who came over from England a couple years ago and was my coworker at the WSA. And he was saying like, explain

Orlando to me. Explain the magic to me. I was like, well, we're not we've had some of the greatest talents in the history of basketball in this place. And like, I think there's a lot of franchises that would kill for that. I mean, it's almost like a European soccer team where they had

four or five guys who ended up winning World Cups or whatever, but they never won a league title with them. That's an okay destiny. I got to see Shaq in a pretty small arena a couple miles from my house. Penny Hardaway, same thing. Dwight Howard, Tracy McGrady. I think that's an okay basketball

fate to have if you have this constellation of stars and never quite get there. I think the franchise as a whole doesn't get nearly enough credit for the highs that they've reached it's fair all right Kevin Card good luck we'll continue to monitor these Paloas

very strange I hope you get your guy thanks for coming on and I'm sure we will talk to you after the draft see you buddy this episode is brought to you after the draft. See you, buddy. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey.

Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research.

And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. All right, we move on to Kevin O'Connor from The Ringer. He is continuing to put up new content on our fantastic draft guide. I don't know if people realize this. I tweeted about this earlier, KSC. We cannot telepathically predict each pick. Nobody has this intelligence

that we have. We're going to go 60 for 60. People don't believe us, but we have AI learning. It's 58. It's 58 for 58 this year, Bill. That's right. I forgot. We lost a couple. Okay. So your question, we're doing burning questions. Your question is after the one, two, three, and it seems like Ivy is destined to go four. Is there a favorite home run swing?

Is there, think about years past, like Giannis, what pick was he? 15? Donovan Mitchell, very tail end of the lottery. Could there be a home run swing in here? Could there be a guy who ends up being the best player in this draft who doesn't go in the top four? If so, who is it? Can I give you three at different ranges in the first round? Give us three. Give us a gold medalist, a silver medalist, and a bronze medalist for this question. All right. One Shaden Sharp, kind of the mystery player, goes to Kentucky,

doesn't play. Six five. You watch his high school video. This dude's a bucket getter. I mean, Ryan Rusillo and I have talked about him a little bit. I think he's a bit of a better playmaker than he gets credit for. He's asked to score, but he does show the will

to at least pass. Jay Kyle Mann did a great video of him as well, breaking down some of his footage defensively at lower levels. When he's playing in a team context where the goal is to win games, not EYBL, the defensive ability is there.

So Shaden Sharp, number one that comes to mind as a go-to scoring wing. And then Usman Jang. Wait, hold on. Can you stay with Sharp for a second? What's the draft pick range for him in your opinion? Could he go as high as four

and could he drop out of the top nine? I'd be surprised if he goes four because it sounds like Ivy will go there whether it's to Sacramento or a trade with Sacramento. I'd say for Sharp, it's probably more like 6 to 12. That's probably the range for him. So he could fall out of top 10.

Yeah, I mean, it could happen. I mean, there's been so many different guys, including a Jang that could move up. There's a number of different guys that could slide into the top 10. And others have already. Matherin has solidified himself as a top 10 guy. Dyson Daniels has solidified himself as a top 10 guy. Dyson Daniels has solidified himself as a top 10 as well. What is the perfect type of team for Sharp?

Is it a bad team where he can get minutes like Jalen Green last year where you're just getting thrown out there, you're getting your reps, you're making your mistakes, and then February, March, beginning of April, all of a sudden it starts to come together? Or would you rather see him in a Golden State situation? Not that it would be Golden State, but a good team that he could be worked in and learn like

the right rest lessons i i think it's exactly that it's more of the good situation where it's a low pressure you know you don't there's no expectations like new orleans for example they already have so many so many young players where this is an upside player you can slowly develop and bring him in or San Antonio somewhere like that where they already have Keldon Johnson and Devin Vassell and a bunch of guards

where for him he can come off the bench and get some easy minutes rather than, you know, like a team that needs scoring right now. So I think for him

that's the best fit. Okay. Who's your silver medalist? Ousmane Jang, French prospect, 6'10 forward, spent this last year playing in New Zealand. He'smane Jang, French prospect, 6'10 forward, spent this last year playing in New Zealand.

He's, I mean, he played last year, but he's unproven just like Sharp has. He struggled really until the last, you know,

two, three weeks of the year. It was a tough year with him with like the COVID situation since arriving in Australia there. So I think for with him, 6'10, his best skill right now is his ball handling ability,

his playmaking. And anytime you're talking about somebody with that type of size that can handle and create shots for themselves and for others, there's a baseline for success. And you factor in the fact that he did look better

shooting those pull-up jumpers, hitting spot-up threes to close the year. As he continues to develop, there's a package for a well-rounded, versatile offensive player that can be used in so many different roles. And naturally, with that size,

hard worker, puts in effort on defense. It's just a matter of developing fundamentals and developing his awareness on that end. So he could end up one of the better two-way guys in the NBA draft if all things work out. You know I have a bias against tall, super skinny guys. Yeah. So he could end up one of the better two-way guys in the NBA draft if all things work out. You know I have a bias against tall, super skinny guys. Yeah.

6'10", 200. He's not super... Yeah, I mean, I think he has a frame, though. He should get stronger. He has the wider frame to put on some weight. Because I'm trying to think best-case scenarios. Like, Giannis, I mean, he grew three inches, too. That was always helpful. But he was...

We were thinking he was like a Paul George type coming out of that draft. Then all of a sudden he was seven feet. But you have as, in the draft guide, you have as shades of Brandon Ingram, Chandler Parsons, and Evan Turner. Those are three guys that I would not have grouped together. So Brandon Ingram, I'm guessing the body.

Chandler Parsons, what is it about the Chandler Parsons piece? Chandler Parsons, I'd say more like overall ability, that type of thing where he's not your star player, but he could be a good scoring presence with size. And I think if you insert healthy prime Chandler Parsons into today's NBA, he'd be a pretty good player. Yeah, he was a good player. Evan Turner is like no shot, but can be a pretty good player. He was a good player. Evan Turner is like no shot, but can do a lot of stuff. If the shot never develops, you still have a player with size who can play make for you.

My favorite part of this draft is the 8-15 section. Especially if Matherin ends up in that range. I think A.J. Griffin's really interesting. You know, like that Duke team was so loaded, it almost becomes hard to figure out who was who,

but he has all the basic skills you would want. We talked about wings on Sunday on this pod. I just want wings. And that guy checks all the boxes. The Johnny Davis thing, it just seems like he's going to score. Yeah, he's a bucket. It just seems like he's going to score. Yeah, he's a bucket. It just seems like he's going to get baskets.

And, you know, versus like somebody like the Celtics took Neesmith. It's like, Neesmith, he might be able to score. Like some people just have it where it's like, I can score. I'm putting in points. Sohan, you know, I love him. And I love Mark Williams. I think if you have him in that 13 to 15 range as a big who can play 20, 25 minutes a game,

that's really valuable because at that point, you're only paying, what, $4 million a year? Yeah, I love Mark Williams. I got a little mini article coming out about him on The Ringer, I think either late Tuesday or early Wednesday, just about Mark Williams. Because you're right, Bill. I mean mean what did

we see this year in the NBA bigs they're competing for MVP Robert Williams and Al Horford starting for the Celtics came on Looney having huge minutes throughout the postseason for the Warriors having quality bigs even if they're non superstars it matters a lot to get through those matchups like Looney

he defends Jokic in round one interior player and round three against luca he's switching onto the perimeter against him like you gotta have bigs that you can trust and i love mark williams that that dude that dude's so big like what did he have that's the second longest standing reach in in recorded history behind taco fall right it's nuts how big he is and he's got some skill too i like him a lot i think i think mark williams is going to be shooting three someday because when i talked to him i asked him about he shot like five for nine and two years at duke on jumpers and looked pretty good shooting

them and and he told me that that's something he's been working on a lot because he knows like that's a necessity to maximize his value in the NBA. I'm a buyer in Mark Williams' stock. He's definitely a playoff series guy. Yeah. I could have seen him in the finals playing, you know, six-minute stretches in each half for either of the teams. You know, like the Celtics became afraid to play Tice as the playoffs went along.

And it's like, I don't know, he's a little closer to the Robert Williams. At least he can rim protect and be physical. I'm sure a smart team will be able to pull him out in his space and try to beat him off the dribble, stuff like that. I talked to him during the conference finals and I asked him, is there a big that you've watched in the postseason that you feel like you could fit into that role someday? And he mentioned Robert Williams.

Of course. That exact role. Yeah. All right. So who's your bronze medalist? Let's go with Peyton Watson out of UCLA. Okay. He had a really bad year, really bad freshman season, playing behind a lot of veterans, upperclassmen on that UCLA roster,

came off the bench and not do well. Shot, you know, he averaged three points per game. You know, he wasn't playing much. He was not producing in those minutes. But the fact is, is you're talking about someone who's six foot seven with super long arms who busts his ass on defense you know he crashes the boards can switch onto the perimeter can defend some bigger guys as well and then it's like we talked about with jing he has the ball handling ability he creates space and he can pass the ball it's just a matter of

can he get stronger to the point that he's finishing well around the rim can he become efficient enough as an outside shooter that that ball handling is activated and becomes meaningful in the half court but i think with somebody like him we're seeing so many players with funky style games that are managing to find a role whether it's a gary payton or whether it's like a grant williams like siris so he's written about before these kind of you know weird bodied players that have skill a payton watson kind of fits into that category i think as someone that's worth a gamble in the late first so he was 12th on the espn top 100 the two guys that jump out on this list when you go back and look at that from 2021,

because Chet was number one, Jaden Hardy was two, Bates was three, but I think, you know, Bates stayed in school. Paolo was four. Jabari was sixth. Patrick Baldwin Jr.

was fifth. And he had a terrible college year. And I think he's not even in your top 30. But then your guy, Peyton Watson was 12th. Yeah. Baldwin 29 on my board now. Oh, okay. Yeah. So those are just ESPN top 100 pedigree stuff where you, you go, Oh, I didn't like the situation that guy was in as a freshman in college, but the pedigree is still there. Sire Williams, I would say like how good he looked in Memphis versus how bad his one college season was

probably is making people rethink the, eh, can we overreact to four bad months in college when the pedigree was there all through high school? Yeah, especially for a guy like Watson. He's playing behind upperclassmen and not getting a ton of consistent opportunities to do what he did at the high school level. I think for teams, he's one of those

players where you can feel that there's a baseline like a foundation for him to have success he can grow into becoming a versatile defender who makes the right play on offense but if the jump shot develops if that ends up popping you're talking about someone that's gonna have a long career in the nba that that's a worthy gamble for some of these teams in the late 20s, early 30s that already have a lot of young talent where it's worth taking a swing or they're already contending. And it's like, yeah, let's bring a guy in

that could grow into either a key player or a role player for us. I think he has all of those paths available to him. Well, we have a lot of time to talk about the draft on Thursday night. Your favorite player in the draft out of the top three is? It's Paolo? You're a Paolo guy.

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Oh, out of the top three. Okay. Yeah. In the top three, I got Paolo Bancaro, number one. Bancaro, one.

Smith, two. Holmgren, three. How do you actually see the one, two, three going? Now it is 1.10 p.m. on Tuesday. The Paolo ads have moved a little. What do you think it'll go one two three as of now still smith one holmgren two bancaro three but there could be movement within the top three that could change that up like houston trying to move up to assure that

they get bancaro and i've heard okc is also in on bancaro but how much of that is just noise to try to influence a trade knowing Houston's desire to get Paulo? I never believe any rumors with OKC because nothing ever comes out with them. Even last year, it never came out that they were going hard after Mobley until, what, a couple months after

the draft. They do a nice job of just kind of burying stuff, I think. Well, it was out there a lot with Poku. True. They with Poku. True. That they wanted Poku. But that might have been a Wasserman agency thing

more than anything else. The connection's there. All right. Well, we'll see what happens. And you can listen to KFC on the Mismatch feed. And then on Thursday night, I know you are

popping on. We're going to do a multi-part extravaganza. Good to see you, KFC. Thank you, Bill. When you ride transit, please be safe. Yeah, be safe. Because what you do, others will do too.

Others will do it too. So don't take shortcuts across tracks. Don't do that. In fact, just don't walk on tracks at all. Not at all. Trains move quietly, so you won't hear them coming. You won't hear them coming. See?

Safe riding sets an example. Yeah, an example for me. Because safety is learned. It's learned. Okay, give it up. Give what up? Really? Really, really.

Ugh. This message is brought to you by Metrolinks. Okay, Raheem Palmer is here. New addition. Free agent signing on The Ringer. You can find him on The Ringer Gambling Show. There's going to be a lot of basketball, football stuff. Did pretty well on the Ringer Gambling Show in the finals.

Better than I did. You were telling us under, under, under the last couple rounds. You were right. I mean, the last couple games. You were right. That's what happens. Things get tight. Sphincters get tight.

The game plans get better. Shots stop going in. Yeah, I mean, we looked at both teams, they really struggled to score in the half court. And I think ultimately the difference was Steph Curry is the best player in the world right now. Did that result surprise you or did you leave Game 6 thinking that was the right result? I think if they played that series over again, we'd probably get a seven-game series. I think Game 4 play that series over again, we probably get a seven game series. I think game four was the deciding game. Like, I mean, the Celtics up 91-86,

score six points for the rest of the game. And I said to myself, I think I actually tweeted it out. I said, this series is over. That's going to series. Because I mean, I was actually on the Celtics and I kind of got lucky because I planned on betting the Celtics

to win this series. But you know, my game seven trend, it's held up so long. The Celtics won game one. So with them winning game one, I couldn't come back on a Celtics at a better number. So that kind of saved me. So I was just betting game by game, but I just think game four just swung the series so much. And then you saw the Celtics bench really struggled. I mean, they had basically five guys. I mean, Grant Williams, Derek White, and Pritchard, they gave them nothing for the last three, four games of the series. Raheem, I just gotten over this. Why are you bringing this up to me? Oh, wait, I brought it up. I'm sorry. Yeah, our bench died and Tatum died,

and the red team won. The Warriors got better every game and they just figured the Celtics out. And I'm still mad about it. We're going to talk about 2023 NBA. This is one of our burning questions because it's not just about the draft this week. We might see some trades. Something might happen. The odds are out. I was looking at FanDuel. And, you know, I mean, first of all, they've figured out the future odds. There's no value at all. Everybody's like 7-1, 9-1. And it just doesn't make sense, I don't think, especially in like June, to bet like a team at 7-1 to win the finals. Do you agree with that or no?

I think there's some value out there. Okay, tell me. For me, I'm looking at the Los Angeles Clippers. I mean, right now, when you look at this Los Angeles Clippers team, they're going to bring back Kawhi Leonard. This is a team who, to me, they project to be top five offensively and defensively. Last year, Paul George only played 31 games, and they were still a top five defense. And when Paul George came back, the offense was rolling.

And then they also made some trades last year that I felt put them over the top. I mean, obviously made them deeper. Yeah. I mean, you got Robert Covington. You got Norman Powell. I mean, this is a wing factory. And what do you want in today's NBA? Other than your team, the Boston Celtics, there's nobody with better wins.

So you bring Kawhi Leonard back to that. And I know it's tough to bank on a guy coming off of an ACL injury but we've seen Kevin Durant we've seen Klay Thompson I think Kawhi will be fine the one thing I don't like is I hear that they're thinking about trading for Kyrie Irving I don't really like that because I think that's going to mess up their depth

but at 7 50 I love the Clippers I think that's the best bet on the board and I think that that value is not going to be there forever. You know, that one jumped out to me too, but I just felt like the plus 750 wasn't of value. I thought they were going to be like 12 to 1, 13 to 1 because we haven't seen these guys together

basically since spring of 2021. But at the same time, the top five, Golden State's 5 to 1 on FanDuel, Brooklyn's 7 to 1, Milwaukee's 7-1, Seltzer's 7-1, and Clippers are plus 750. And then it drops to the Suns, plus 950. It feels like it's right that the Clips have the second best odds in the West. Yeah. Yeah. The one that surprised me, I don't understand the Nets thing at all. I have no idea why they

have the second best odds out of anybody. I don't get it. I think there's so many variables with them. Start with the Kyrie thing. I have no idea what team he's going to be on. A bunch of old role guys they signed last year. Really, none of them panned out. I have no idea if KD's happy,

where his head's at. And then Ben Simmons, you know, you're in Philly. Do you trust Ben Simmons? To me, the fact that the Clippers have worse odds than the Nets is like absolute insanity I don't get it to me the Nets

at the same odds as the Bucks are insane to me like Benjamin might never play basketball for the Nets ever and then like Kyrie and Kevin Durant are best friends if they don't handle this Kyrie situation in the way that Kevin Durant wants them to handle it Kevin Durant are best friends. If they don't handle this Kyrie situation in the way that Kevin Durant wants them to handle it, Kevin Durant

could walk. This could completely fall apart. We're going to talk about Kyrie in part two. I have some theories on this, but just spoiler alert, I think he'll end up on Brooklyn because I don't think anybody else is ultimately going to give up whatever it would take. It's one of those things. They don't want

to be with each other, but they're going to kind of end up with each other. I'm going to throw two teams at you that I thought were intriguing from a value point. You tell me what you think. Nuggets, 17-1. We just talked about, Rob Mahoney and I just talked about them, about could they be one move away from, you know, if you package Gordon and Monty Morris' contract,

the picks they have, could they have a fourth guy they're 17 to 1 that seemed a little juicy to me considering they have one of the best four players in the league what do you think of that one they stand out to me but I think the thing that scares me is they just got

a new GM obviously he left for Minnesota right and then I'm still I want to see the status of Michael Porter Jr. and Jamal Murray. I mean, obviously, I think when I look at Nikola Jokic, to me, he's one of the best players in the league. And I price him the same way I would any type top guy. Like you have to account for him. I mean, this guy stole one game off the Warriors, almost two. So I just want to wait on that. I think you could probably get a little bit better of a number later on. I think it's funny. They're 17-1, the Nets are 7-1. And to me, they're basically the same team from an I don't know what the fuck is going to happen standpoint. Each team has a great player.

And then there's some variables with the two through four. Honestly, Denver's probably in an easier division or easier conference, or at least a conference that has more uncertainty. So I just feel like some of this stuff comes down to who's public. People just think Brooklyn's a super contender and they're just not anymore. It's not the team from a year and a half ago when it was Harden and Kyrie and KD. It was like, oh my God, how are we going to stop these guys? Those days are done. We don't know what we're getting with Ben.

That's for favorites over your Celtics. I thought that was the most batshit insane line that I've ever seen in my life. I also thought it was crazy. Here's the other one. This one might surprise you. Bulls 65-1. This is a long shot, but This one might surprise you. Bulls, 65-1. Ooh.

So, this is a long shot, but what if they traded for Gobert? What if that Vucevic-Pat Williams rumor that KOC was talking about, and they just ended up with Gobert, and then you start thinking about defensively what that team would look like? Now, what if they were able to get Gobert without trading Patrick Williams?

And it was just Vucevic, the pick they have this year, and a bunch of more picks. But I was thinking about them defensively. If they had Caruso and Lonzo, even if they were able to keep Patrick Williams, Zach Levine, DeRozan, and Gobert anchoring everything, all of a sudden that looks like a real playoff team to me. So the 65-1, just the flyer, just in case they're the Gobert team, I thought was an interesting

idea. That's really interesting. I mean, I wouldn't mind putting a small bet on that. I mean, think of Gobert. I mean, that's scary. Little appetizer, right? Yeah, I mean, why not? I'm not saying it's an entree. It's not the veal chop, but it's a soup order.'s not the veal chop but you know it's like it's a soup order uh what else did you have for values for uh did you any long shots that you

like um i mean i think obviously you kind of you got to have the books i mean you have the best player in the world and i mean i think everybody kind of agrees that if middleton didn't get hurt i'm sorry bill if middleton didn't get hurt i agree with you, Bill. If Middleton didn't get hurt. I agree with you, dude. I don't see that number getting better than seven and one. So I think you can put some value down on that. But as far as long shots, last year I said, and I said this back in January, the Dallas Mavericks or the Memphis Grizzlies will go to the Western Conference Finals. Now, one of those happened. The other one didn't. Obviously, John Morant got hurt.

I don't want to really look to the Grizzlies because I do think the West is getting better. But I think if I'm looking towards a long shot, which I'm not going to play now, it'd probably be the Dallas Mavericks plus 1,900. I mean, obviously, the trade to Christian Wood, that was huge for them. I mean, I think that kind of makes them obviously, they're like the Rockets almost. Like the James Harden era Rockets. Now they have some rebounding, they have some size. I think that's, they really struggle

as they got beat up on the boards against Golden State. I think they're going to be a top one to three seed. Like, honestly, like, if they open up the lines at some point where you can bet, you know, seeding, I would be looking at the Mavericks to be one of the best regular season teams in the league. And I also think that opens up

the value for Luka to be MVP. So, you figure they'll use the mid-level exception too. They already turned all the guys on the back of their bench who didn't play into Christian Wood whose lobs and threes at worst. He's also an expiring if that trade doesn't work out. They could just flip him in February. He's making like 14 million. So I

agree on that. One more body at free, like let's say they got, I don't know, Robin Lopez, just any, just give me any big guy who could at least play 15 minutes and not be a complete disaster. And then Luca makes a jump up. I know you're monitoring this too, because we're talking about MVP. Yeah. I'm waiting. Every day I'm waiting for the picture of Luca with the eight pack and he's giving up sugar and he's working out with this dude. And oh my God, is that a tricep? What's going on now? I'm waiting. I don't know if this is the year, but Luka in a tank top looking like a Marvel hero. And when that happens, I am

banging the MVP. The MVP is 5-1 right now. Still pretty good odds, right? He's going to win at some point. Yeah, I think to me, he's the rightful favorite. I like Luka. And then last year, he had the Olympics. So he was coming off the Olympics where he did more than

people expected him to do. I mean, he took that team really far and now he's back. I mean, so it's like he has a whole off season to, you know, party and then get into shape. So if he's in shape, I think he's, he's the favorite to win this award. Five to one is pretty nice odds. I actually thought that was going to be like plus, plus two 50, three to one range. Embiid is plus 550. Giannis, who just 7-1 always feels, it just almost feels like that's too high. Durant's 10-1. Jokic, 12-1. Curry, 13-1.

And then it starts getting into like a couple long shots I like. Ja, 16-1. If you're making the case, like Memphis is a top three team. Ja, 16-1. If you're making the case, Memphis is a top three team. Ja plays the whole season. Ja, 30 points a game. Ja, the most popular young player in the league

by all the social media metrics. And then the Kawhi comeback, 24-1. For me, I'm not taking anybody over 30. I actually did some work on how... Over 30 years old? Yeah, like 30 or more. Like, there's only been, what, there have been seven,

there were seven guys who won MVP who were 30 and above. You know what the last one was? Karl Malone? Steve Nash in 2005 and 2006. Oh, you're right. And then here's the thing. If you look at the history of the war since 1985,

there's been six players who won the MVP award in their 30s. Most, I mean, excuse me, there's been seven since 1985. Six of them came in the 90s. Maggie Johnson in 1990, Hakeem Olajuwon in 1994, Michael Jordan, 96, 98, Car Malone, 97, 99. But when you look at the 90s, that was a time when pace slowed to a crawl. So 30-year-olds don't win this award. So I'm automatically crossing off LeBron James. I'm crossing off Kevin Durant. I'm crossing off Curry because they just don't win this award. So I'm automatically crossing off LeBron James. I'm crossing off Kevin Durant. I'm crossing off Curry

because they just don't win this award. It's like, it's no country for old men. That's good. Well, the other thing with the 90s, the talent, we had a swoon of talent. So somebody like Karl Malone, who was doing the same stuff he was doing five years earlier, all of a sudden it was more impressive

because everybody around him was playing worse. That's really interesting, the over 30 thing. I like that. Alright, so you crossed off Kawhi, but that doesn't cross off Ja. Yeah, that definitely doesn't cross off Ja. And I think the biggest thing with Memphis is that I do think they can take a step back.

They had a slow start to the season and then they got it going defensively and they just went on a good run. But I think the West is a little better this year. Anthony Edwards, 65 to one little too early. Pretty good. And hustle.

Probably a little too early, but I, I loved him. I mean, he was like two pocket juice as far as being a villain. He was a basic. I was stunned. And apparently he filmed that after his rookie year when he was barely even Anthony Edwards yet.

But he had the same confidence he had during the season. Give us an Embiid prediction before you go. Just in general, what does his next year look like? I think it's the same as this year. I think he's dominant. Actually, I think if there's a long shot, I think you kind of want to look to the Sixers because, and this is not me being biased,

this is more about Daryl Morey. What does Daryl Morey do? He finds ways to put things together. So whether they trade Tobias Harris or Thibault and get some more guys in there, I think MB is going to be his dominant self. I don't know if James Hart is going to stop partying, but I think MB is right there in the MVP conversation. Maybe he even wins it this year. All right. There's 16 to 1. We got to go, Raheem. Good to see you.

We can hear Raheem on the Ringer Gambling Show. I'll be popping on there a few times with you over the summer. And then football, basketball, it's going to be a sprint. Good to see you. Good to see you. After decades of shaky hands caused by debilitating tremors, Sunnybrook was the only hospital in Canada who could provide Andy with something special. Three neurosurgeons, two scientists, one movement disorders coordinator,

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John Jastrzemski is here. You can hear him on the New York New York podcast. You can hear him on the Ringer Gambling Show where him and House were getting their asses kicked by Raheem Palmer.

He was just telling them under, under, under. And he was right. What an addition to the show. We're not talking Yankees. I don't care. Wow. That's why I thought you were having me on. Wow. In denial. You hate to see that. It's a basketball podcast today. What are the Knicks going to do? What do you want them to do? Okay. What do I want them to do? I want them to trade up and get Ivy because they haven't had a legitimate, bona fide star guard in my entire life.

So the idea of getting somebody who can create and can make things happen, it excites me. The problem is, how are the Knicks going to do that? They're not getting Kyrie Irving. You want to talk about something that would drive me to drink, something that would drive me up a wall. The idea of Kyrie Irving coming to the New York Knicks, no thank you. I don't want any involvement. They could have had him a couple of years ago with Kevin Durant. That did not happen. And I think ultimately Kyrie's going to end up staying in

Brooklyn. I think Durant wants him back. It seemed like it was all kumbaya from Annette's Irving perspective about a month and a half ago despite the sweep, but you're asking me what I want Thursday night BS? Ivy. That's what I want. See the 10th pick. So you're saying talk Sacramento into a little flip-a-roo.

What else are you throwing in? Are you throwing in future picks? Like what if Sacramento said, well, yeah, you can trade up for four. We want 10. We want next year's first. Give us a pick swap the year after and give us quickly

and we're happy to do that for you. Well, I was thinking they would want Toppin and I don't want to trade Toppin, but I would do it because I think the Knicks are that desperate for a lead guard. I think they are that desperate for a lead guard where as much as I like Obi, here's the problem, BS. What are they doing with that Randall contract? Can they actually find a legitimate taker for Randall? He was a dog last year, the feel good year, the all NBA year. You're never getting that again. I would sell him 30 cents on the dollar. But I ask you, Mr. NBA, who is the team?

Usually it's Sacramento. It's not Sacramento. Who is the team that can take Julius Randle off my team's hands? I think it's like a Westbrook Lakers situation. I don't think anyone's taking him back unless they know what happened to him last year, unless he can prove in the next season

that he's back to where he was two years ago. I thought it was one of the most inexplicable subplots of the year, how somebody that was a beloved teammate and really efficient, and I think I voted for him second team all-NBA, turned into the guy we watched last year. It doesn't make sense. It was like he was going through something. I'm with you on the Toppin thing.

I like Toppin. I would be really, really uncomfortable about giving him up. But if you're stuck with Randall, you might have to because in two years you're going to pay Obi Toppin like $20 million a year when he can't play with Randall. That's the issue.

They need a guard. I don't know how many times I need to say it. That's the direction the NBA is going. You need one of those guys. Ivy, to me, fits perfectly. Now, if you tell me right now, it's this year's first, next year's first, but I want it top three protected.

If I could do that, done. And it's Obi Toppin, I would make that trade. I would do it. So, 10th it's Obi Toppin, I would make that trade. I would do it. So, 10th pick, Obi Toppin, and next year's first top three protected to move up to four.

I would do it. That's what you're saying. I would do it. Now, if Sacramento asked for my advice on that, I think I would tell them to do that. I agree. It makes sense for them. They have 10 zillion point guards.

I mean, they got Davion Mitchell last year, for goodness sakes. They still have De'Aaron Fox. I don't think I'm being unreasonable with that trade request. And I like the players from 8 to 12 because I think they would end up with somebody good there

anyway and it's not a redundant point guard thing. I really worry about Ivy. I think that's the worst team for him to go to. Where a team that with Fox who just was in this whole weird thing with Halliburton. The moment they traded Halliburton, his stats took off. He really quickly was a bonus

and I would just worry about bringing Ivy into that. Mitchell's already there. And so for me, first with the Kings, is Fox our guy or not? And if he's not, maybe that's plan B to this, right? Maybe then you think about we're going to take Ivy and then we'll trade Fox to the Knicks. Well, last year, it's funny you mention that. Before the Sabonis trade, I was wishing and hoping that the Knicks could swap Randall for

Fox. I was rooting for that. Because I've always wanted Fox on the Knicks. But now with Sabonis there, I can't see that. So would you trade Randall and the 10 for Fox? Done. You would. I would not do that. I would. I absolutely

would. To get Randall off the team? Yes. Yes, I would. Yes, I would. I would not do that. I would. I absolutely would. To get Randle off the team, yes. Yes, I would. Yes, I would. Because let me ask you this question. If they don't move up for Ivy, what are the Knicks looking at with the 10th pick? Mark Williams? A.J. Griffin?

Sohan. I like Sohan. Oh, man. Oh, man. Yeah, you're right. You're going to get me to buy in there? It's not somebody that will have the fans clamoring for the seasons. It does feel like the Knicks, you know, last year, it's just bizarre that they overreacted to that Hawks series like they did. They lost to the Hawks in five and acted like,

we've got to keep the band together going forward. Well, I mean, they had as bad an offseason as any team that I can imagine. The Randall extension, which some would say, well, you had to do it. The Randall extension for no reason. No, they didn't have to do it at all. They should have let him play out the year.

Totally, totally agree. And then you think about this. Fournier, absolute stiff. They gave Alec Burks a ton of money. Rose, who I like, they brought Alec Burks a ton of money. Rose, who I like, they brought back and gave him a ton of money. And of course, predictably, he ends up getting hurt. Last year went as bad as can be. And you also had the regression factor from the tips team where they really played out of their freaking mind the first year he was there. And then you had that regression to the mean in year two. Well, and then letting Bullock go, who's actually a three and D playoff guy.

You spend the money on all these other guys, but you let the three and D playoff guy go. Not that he's like an all-star, but he's a piece. I thought he had some important moments for Dallas. I didn't understand really anything they did last summer. I was saying at the time, I didn't understand giving Randall the extension when they didn't have to.

I didn't like extending some of the deals. And then it was the whole thing of, no, no, no, the deals aren't as bad as they seem. They can get out of them. But it's like, well, great. You can't get out of them now. And I think it's such an advantage to have cap space. Over and over again, we see these teams panic when they have cap space. We got to do something with cap space. It's like, wait, well, Tibbs isn't going to want to coach a young team. Well, then get another coach. Like, why is everybody has to cater toward Tibbs? What is Tibbs has never coached a team in the finals. It's not like he's Phil Jackson.

You know, I think I get that. I think Tibbs is the least of their problems, though. Their direction to me is the bigger problem. And that's what I need to figure out before we hit the start of the year. Are they going all young? Like, are they rolling out RJ and quickly and topping? Well, if that's the case, then what is the plan for this front office?

And BS, I wish I could give you a more detailed and a more eloquent answer because I don't have the slightest idea what their plan is. I have no clue. The tips thing's a problem. It is also swimming against where the league is going, where those type

of coaches, the guys who didn't play, who get the attention for being what they do, and they have their scheme and the whole thing. It feels like the league's moving away from that. If anything, those guys are becoming lead assistants now. I thought it was interesting. Kenny Atkinson had a chance to have the Charlotte job, but instead was like, you know what? I'm super happy as Steve Kerr's number one assistant

and I'll be his X's and O's guys and Steve can do all the public stuff. Celtics, same thing with the Emei Doko and Will Hardy is like his number one guy, right? Will Hardy is in a great spot. He gets to do all the fun coaching stuff without the actual, you know, having to run the team and he can get all the refs and stuff like that. I just think the Tibbs, Stan Van Gundy era is, is kind of going by the wayside going forward. I think guys are going to, teams are going to be hiring ex players. I think they'll be looking at people like Iguodala and people who just played who have this coach and put really good assistants around them.

But the main guy will be somebody who can connect with the players who used to be a player. I think that's where we're going. But don't you think the bigger problem for the New York Knicks

right now is their front office, not the head coach? Because I think the front office right now is completely clueless. Well, so the front office, the one good thing they did is they reestablished some of the credibility

because I think until Wes and Leon showed up, the Knicks were just considered to be a complete shit show, stay away. So what, now they're a semi shit show? I think they at least seem like they have a plan. I just disagree with the plan. Does that make sense?

Yeah. What is the plan? The idea of getting respectable and then hoping that builds towards something? I don't know what that is. I think the plan was... Well, they've drafted well. It came out of nowhere. But they drafted pretty well the last couple of years.

I think the plan was there's nobody we like with the cap space. We're going to try to protect the cap spots. We're going to try to give value where we think there's value. And just kind of wait and just kind of accumulate assets. The problem is the Randall thing

was where they fucked up. If they didn't do the Randall thing, the 48 contract's fine. He makes too much money, but if he was making 10 million, it'd be fine. He's overpaid, which gives him something in common with 50 guys. The Randall thing was indefensible. I just don't understand why they did it. And I don't think there's a way to get out of it. And you know, as a Knicks fan, I know as a Celtics fan during the ML car, Rick Pitino era, like you have these contracts and it's like having a car lease for the worst car ever. You're like, I can't even get rid of this. What am I going to do?

They've done this so many times, the Knicks. So many times. I mean, before Donnie Walsh came in, that was their MO. They would take these awful contracts. I remember when Ewing, and this is 20 years, for goodness sakes, BS, they took on Shandon Anderson and Howard Isley, Travis Knight. And in many ways, people listening are probably like, what are you doing? Why are you referencing something from 20 years ago? Well, the reason I'm referencing it is because that started this trend that the Knicks have repeated about three or four times

over the last 20 years. No, you're right. It starts in the mid-90s, really, with Chris Childs and some of those guys. No, but at least those teams were contending teams. They overpaid Allen Houston, but at least Allen Houston provided moments of brilliance that they haven't seen in 20-plus years, for goodness sake. So I can live with that. I really can. Early 90s and beyond,

there are just very few years you can find the organization in stable footing or making the right decision. So yeah, they're not a full fledged shit show. They have drafted okay, like Barrett. Toppin is useful. Quickly is useful. But Borkley said this. I don't know if you saw this. It was in New York papers a couple of days ago, and I think it's an excellent quote. The Knicks have a bunch of guys like they don't have like who outside of Barrett, who are the budding stars on the team? They don't have them. And that's a problem. James Harden? No, no, no, no, no, no. He's going back to Philly. You know that. More. I'm trying to think of. I'm trying to think of other stars that might be available.

Yeah. Well, Mitchell is the guy. That'd be the guy New York City would be drooling over. His dad works for the Mets. He's had all the Rangers playoff games. He has to be in that trade, though. Probably. That's the issue.

And then what exactly does that do you? I don't know. You're going sideways at that point. I'd rather have RJ on a rookie contract and the arrows pointing up for him and I like him. That would be my sign. Well, I think there's something there with the Kings and Knicks in some way. There's some sort of match.

That would excite me. You want something that will excite me and I think a whole lot of Knicks fans, they trade up to four and get Ivy. I'm going to be fired up about that because then I got to guard. Well, listen to JJ on the New York New York pod. You can hear his response. We're not talking about the Yankees.

I don't really, I don't take baseball seriously until August. That's just the way I am. So I don't even know what your record is. Last year, I couldn't escape the, it's okay though, because you've linked me with Jacko now. So me and Jacko now talk all the time. And we were texting last night and we were in our glory. Big balls, Wendy Peralta.

You've been making a lot of trips to Boston. So I'm not going to see you at Fenway Park in a couple of weeks for Yankees Red Sox. That's what you're telling me. You will not see me. That's unfortunate. I hope we don't get embarrassed. JJ, good to see you. Thanks, BS.

All right, Big Waz is here. We're doing draft questions, burning questions. The Utah Jazz seem to hold a lot of cards. Could Gobert be going somewhere? Could Donovan Mitchell be going somewhere? Could they be going the other way and trying to bring guys in? You have been studying the Jazz

for about four and a half minutes. What is your, what's your take? First of of all what would you do if you were the jazz and then second what do you think they will do i would probably try to get some young guys in get some draft picks for mitchell um and not completely stink up the joint in the process of doing so because Utah has kind of never been the team that just breaks it down to its studs and do the full tank-a-thon type of thing. So I just probably, because I could get more from Mitchell, being that he's got a nice amount of years still left on his deal. He's a wing player, ball-dominant guy. He's younger than Rudy. You can get the most from him. And I just keep Rudy around. My team will be competent.

My young guys will learn how to play next to a guy who's obviously a proven, very solid pro, will play great defenses. And I'll just move on that way. Get pieces, assets in the process, and move on with my life. Because Donovan Mitchell is not long for this franchise. It's just obvious. So they might as well do this as soon as they can and get the most that they can for it. So basically, if they were going to trade Mitchell,

Miami would be, I think, the lead target, right? Because they could do, Hero could be in it, Duncan Robinson, one or two more contracts, and you're good to go. If you wanted to get a little more ambitious, maybe Lowry's in that. Conley's coming back the other way if you wanted to make it a bigger trade. Could you trade Donovan Mitchell for a centerpiece? I asked Mahoney this earlier. Could you trade Donovan Mitchell for a centerpiece of Tyler Harrow and picks and pick swaps?

Yeah, I think so. I think the picks are going to be more important to these guys like i'm somebody who likes tyler hero but i don't think he's like you know some centerpiece of anything that isn't a quality bench unit right right he's the centerpiece of that i don't know about anything else and so i think he's a good enough asset, if you will, to get back. But if I was Utah, yeah, I'd definitely be like, I want to maximize my ability to get some draft picks in there and hopefully get the next Donovan Mitchell. Right. Like they didn't pick this guy. Number two, number three, number one. Like this guy was in the teens. And so they probably want to try to hit gold that way and give themselves as many bites of the apple as possible um if they wanted to go another way bill

yeah which is like talk to me i think it's the toronto where it's like yo you guys have a lot of wing depth we had horrible wing depth um we'll give you Rudy. You sacrifice some of your wing depth to get an actual center in there. We'll look into getting just a, since people think that Rudy's this easily replaceable guy, we'll get this replacement level kind of center in here. We'll fill out the wing depth and keep it pushing from there. So that's another way to sort of go about this. That has to be Siakam if that's the trade though.

For sure. So you would you'd be willing to think about that if you're Utah. I would trade Gobert for Siakam in five seconds. Yeah. I just would.

I wouldn't even I wouldn't even blink at that. I'm not sure if I'm Toronto I'm not sure I would I don't think I would do that if I'm Toronto. You don't think you would give up Pascal for Rudy? See, and that's the thing.

I don't think so. I was looking at it like, look, we kind of have our Pascal replacement in the wings. Yeah. Right now. And Scotty Barnes. And so he seems like a guy that could be expendable. Right. And Scotty is so much in his rookie year i i i could understand why they would do that 100

i was getting excited for them to trade gobert to chicago for vucevic picks whatever and then miami they get hero and robinson. And it's just like the white guys start accumulating in Utah. People are like, wait, what's going on here? Wait, there's a lot of white guys going on here. And we're in Utah. I think the other, we talked about the Knicks with JJ, which I don't think we've run that one yet. But the Knicks possibility with Mitchell,

we know they value him. They blew it not taking him a couple years ago. I think the World Wide West has history with him. You could argue the Knicks are in a position of overpaying, are probably the most likely overpayer just to get a star. They have no roadmap really to be interesting. Mitchell's the guy they can point to, they can put him on. RJ would have to be in that trade though. Which again, I don't understand the logic in that,

right? I guess you package RJ. I'm pretty sure Fournier would have to be in there to make some of the money work. But what is that team? You're going sideways. I'm out on that trade too. What is that team? Same thing with bringing Kyrie in there. You see the Kyrie report, where it's like, well, the Lakers, the Knicksicks and the Clippers won't be all right cool if you're the Knicks you could probably move um move enough money and just sign them out right without a deal but what is the Knicks with Kyrie Irving and OB Toppin I'm like I don't know you know what I mean I I don't I the Knicks situation it feels like they're in purgatory or limbo right now if they could tell me they could you know they have a way of bringing in somebody with cap space then swinging the trade for the kairi for the um donovan mitchell type

then okay then i think we're cooking with gas here uh to just all right we're bringing in kairi or bringing in donovan Mitchell to basically play with this group. Yeah. Played next to Julius Randall or something. Like I I'm not understanding the logic there. What if there was a go bear for eight and sign a trade? I mean, I think if you're, I think if you're Utah,

that is the best of all worlds. That's their best case scenario, right? And if you're Phoenix, you're gonna lose Aiton anyway. You have this relatively brief window, at least to contend, although they're probably gonna think Chris is gonna move into this new stage of his career, I'm guessing, where he's like 26, 27 minutes a game.

But if they could turn Aiton into Gobert and sign a backup point guard for Chris and just kind of make a run the next two, three years, that would make sense to me. I just don't know if they'd spend the money. Gobert's expensive. I think the defensive upgrade, because when we're talking about these guys,

a lot of times we tend to think of them in a vacuum, but I think you need to think about the context. Gobert in Phoenix, like his offensive deficiencies are less accentuated by the presence of Chris Paul and Devin Booker. And I think Chris Paul has been obviously a much better playmaker, table setter, actually might give this guy the ball when he's wide open every now and again, unlike what was happening in Utah. Man, if I'm Rudy, I would be over the moon to go play with Phoenix in that situation because, again, his shortcomings on offense become less of a problem because, one, they're going to be – that's dominance on defense

right there. Him and Mikael Bridges and Cam Johnson and, you know, Jay – like that's dominant defensively, and they can figure out how to pick up the pieces on offense with the amount of shooting they can surround them with and the level of playmaking, table setting that's around. That would be incredible. And I think Utah again that like you get a young guy

and it's because it's time to trade you're able to get him for some years and he slots right into Rudy's position yeah that would be a perfect trade honestly I got one more I haven't seen this anywhere and I don't think it'll happen there's a pretty interesting Memphis match for them

because Memphis is a classic they have more than enough assets for a three for one and I don't think it'll happen. There's a pretty interesting Memphis match for them. Because Memphis is a classic. They have more than enough assets for a three for one, four for one, whatever. They have extra draft picks, I think for the next couple of years. And they have Adams as an expiring. He's 17.9 next year.

So that gets you halfway to the Gobert number. And then you can get creative after that. They're also, are they, yeah, they're under the cap too, so they could absorb some stuff too. But I was thinking the same point you just made about Phoenix's defense. If they could figure out a way to keep their nucleus and put him next to Jaron Jackson with their wings that they have, that one I thought was intriguing too. And if you're Utah, you're basically getting out of the Gobert money. You're getting some picks,

an ability to reset. The thing I keep coming back to is Ainge has shown a couple times now in his tenure as a GM that if he feels like you can't, I can't win a title with the team I have, I'm blowing it up. He is one of the original blow it ups.

Yeah. That's what he does. And I guarantee he's looking at this team going, we can't win a title with these two guys as our best two guys. You know That's what he does. And I guarantee he's looking at this team going, we can't win a title with these two guys as our best two guys. You know, it's interesting because while Ainge might have that imperative, it's felt like Memphis has been very hesitant

to jump the gun on any deals. They're kind of just like, we really believe in this young core. We think we can do it piece by piece. But wait a second, though. Do you think after they watching Golden State win the title, how close they were in that series that would make me rethink that because we were like holy shit if jaw doesn't get hurt could we have beaten the team that won the title yeah and but you know the thing about rudy for them is that i think jaron Jackson, so far in his career, has been much better as a four than a five.

Like, look at it. Like, his foul rate is, like, way higher whenever he has to play the five than when he's playing the four. So that's been his best position. However, I think Memphis cannot be unlocked until he masters the center position. Right? until he masters the center position, right? Like, I just don't think offensively they're a dangerous enough team with him at the four and you bring Rudy to that five. I just don't think they're a potent enough offense

when, you know, you got the one supernova. We love John Morant. We think he's a superstar, difference maker, all of that stuff. I wonder if the Rudy fit might be a little bit too clunky with those guys. So, Waz, you're putting on the Memphis Grizzlies

bulletin board. Waz thinks Jaron Jackson needs to be able to handle the five for the Grizzlies to win. I think you're right. I mean, look at what we just watched. It was Draymond and Looney were the centers on a team that won the title. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to bang bodies with those guys.

Yeah. You know, or even the time, Lord. It's like, there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to play center efficiently against those guys defensively. And you know, he has his moments where he's spacing out and actually making his shots. I'm dubious that he'll ever develop a potent one-on-one scoring efficiently you know

sort of drawing fouls and yeah you know getting great shots or generating help and getting it out to shooters and guys attacking closeouts i don't know that he'll ever be that type of guy. But I feel like short of them bringing in a second, you know, bona fide star, I think he has to become that for them to take that next step. Hmm.

I wonder how many teams are going to overreact to the Golden State thing. That's going to be one of the lessons we have this week. All right, last question and then we're going. 10-second answer. Does the lessons we have this week. Alright, last question and then we're going. 10 second answer.

Does Utah make a trade this week? Yes. I think they do too. They just can't bring back the group. It's too toxic. It's almost, it's not as bad as, I mean, I think it's way worse. Actually, I think it's way worse than Phoenix.

Like the A and B situation. In sense that like you've beaten your head over over over on the you banged your head on the desk over and over again um with this group whereas phoenix could be like yo bring it back we went to the finals we did this let's be kumbaya there's a way that you could say that. There's no justification for bringing this group back again. I'm sorry we left you off the hard to kill rewatchables.

Oh my goodness. Next time we do Seagal, you'll be one of the first calls. Please bring me on. By the way, there's a lot of above the rim rumors right now at the rewatchables.

There's a lot. I don't know. Sham's reported something. You guys have never done above the rim? We haven't done it yet. Wow. Yeah, a lot. I don't know. Shams reported something. You guys have never done Above the Room? We haven't done it yet. Wow. Yeah, there's rumors.

There's lots of rumors right now. I know that's going to be a knife fight to get on that show. Waz, great to see you as always. Thanks, man. All right, that's it for part one. Don't forget part two

coming as well of the special two-part extravaganza heading toward Thursday night. Part one was produced by Kyle Creighton. Thanks to Dylan Berkey

and Steve Cerruti as well. Thanks to the Kevins. Thanks to Raheem. Thanks to JJ and thanks to Waz. See you in part two. I don't have feelings with them On the wayside, on the way so I never run

Say I don't have feelings with them