The Bill Simmons Podcast - Part 1: Ayton’s Leap, Kawhi the Enigma, GSW Trades, and a 2018 Redraft With Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: June 28, 2021

In Part 1 of the two-part Sunday podcast, The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss the Suns’ Game 4 win over the Clippers, Deandre Ayton’s importance to the Suns’ success, the uncertainty surrounding Kawhi Leonard, why Bill thinks the Clippers still have a chance, and more (2:30) before they revisit the 2018 NBA draft and discuss potential trades leading up to the 2021 NBA draft, Team USA, and more (44:00). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, I'm Shea Serrano. And I'm Brandon Jinks Jenkins. We have a new show called No Skips with Jinks and Shea. In it, we discuss the most unskippable albums in hip-hop history. New episodes drop on Thursdays, only on Spotify. It's the Bill Simmons Podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest-rated sportsbook is the best place to bet at all. We've been doing

pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the Chargers are going to be good. I think Seattle's going to be good. And then trying to back what you think in those first few weeks and then zag the other way if you were wrong. You could bet on new and fun markets on FanDuel, like to catch a pass, same game parlays, highest scoring game across the Sunday slate, offensive TDs in the next drive. They have so much stuff,

it's crazy. The app is safe and secure and easy to use, and when you win, you'll get paid instantly. Plus, look out for FanDuel Squares this season. Here's what you have to do. Visit FanDuel.com slash BS to download America's number one sportsbook. The Ringer

is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit RG-Help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. And listen to the end of the episode for additional details. You must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem called Win 100 Gambler or visit RG-Help.com.

This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this, it's game day, all the gangs here. You're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're standing at the grill and the smell of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that. Or when you want a light beer that tastes like beer, that's delicious. You don't want to load up on those heavier beers and then you only have two of them. Then you feel tired. Your stomach feels full.

Miller Lite, it's your friend. It just accompanies whatever else you're doing. You're super happy with it. Opening an ice cold Miller Lite can signal the beginning of Miller time. Miller Lite is the light beer with all the great beer tastes we like. 90 calories per 355 mil can. So why not grab some Miller Lights today? Your game time tastes like Miller time.

Must be legal drinking age. We're also brought to you by TheRinger.com as well as The Ringer Podcast Network. This is probably the final time we're doing the two-part Sunday gimmick with me and Rosillo. I think starting next week, we can probably cram this into one podcast, but we can't do it today.

Too much to discuss. We are tapingam this into one podcast, but we can't do it today. Too much to discuss. We are taping part one before Hawks-Bucks, a couple hours before. We're going to put that up and then we'll do part two right after Hawks-Bucks concludes. Hopefully it's a good game, but lots to discuss in part one. Western

Conference Finals and a whole bunch of other subplots. It's all next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right. We're taping this. It is 4.15 Pacific time on Sunday. Bucks-Hawks is still more than an hour away. We have no idea what's going to happen in that, but there's enough basketball to talk about right now that we can get going.

Ryan Rosillo is here. Last night, as the Suns looked like poised for another playoff collapse during the Chris Paul era, Rosillo had on his protective headgear. He had a mouthpiece in so he wouldn't grit his teeth. And all the signs were there for some sort of the latest chapter of a Chris Paul collapse. It did not happen.

As it turned out, both offenses collapsed, but it was somehow better for the Suns. They were able to hold on. They have a 3-1 lead. Chris Paul, now, one game from the NBA Finals They were able to hold on. They have a 3-1 lead. Chris Paul, now one game from the NBA Finals. Caught a huge break. I feel like, Russell, I feel like

the announcers every five minutes should mention that the Clippers don't have Kawhi Leonard. Feels important. Or they should flash it as a graphic. Hey, by the way, the Clippers don't have one of the best seven players in the league. You could feel it last night. They just needed two baskets. They couldn't get them of the best seven players in the league. You could feel it last night. They needed two baskets.

They couldn't get them. No, I mean, the teams combined to start 2-21 in the fourth quarter. 84 points to win a game is the least amount of points any team has scored that's won a game this season, regular playoffs. Any team. No team's ever scored 84 points and won a game this year, so it's a little solo there. The Breen call when they went to Kawhi, though, and saying he's just raging with excitement

when they showed him up in the luxury seats. And he looked like a cutout? That was just an all-time line. But I don't really know what to make of it. I know there's a bunch of stuff that we're going to get to here, but I don't know if it's the Clippers have played their 17th game in 32 days. I thought it like eight and a half minutes as I was looking at how they were using Paul. Cause they brought him in at the end of the third, because let's face it, like the concerns about Cameron Payne,

when he's running the offense, those are very real, even though they got those first two games and he had an incredible game too. So, you know, I'm not, I'm not dissing, but I just felt like everybody was kind of running out there exhausted. And maybe because everybody's so used to all these players being hurt in this playoff season that that's why the Kawhi part's just another footnote. I was taking last night with Paul George and, you know, in the Utah series, those last two games, he showed this side of himself. That's like, oh, that's why I voted for that guy third for MVP a couple of years ago. But to me, he's probably a little closer to Paul Pierce than Kawhi in the sense that he'll just have games when he doesn't have it.

And I think the difference between a true superstar and somebody who's like a 1B superstar, which I think Pierce was, right? He wasn't good enough to be the A guy on a finals team, but he could definitely be the 1B guy. There are nights, Pierce would have these playoff games where he would just go like five for 22, you know, six for 19. He just didn't have it.

And he couldn't get a shot off and had a lot of trouble. And you kind of knew by the third quarter, you knew it was Paul George last night. He was doing the thing. He was trying to get lift on his jumpers. You notice how he was almost jumping higher in the thing and he just, he couldn't figure it out. So then it becomes a Reggie Jackson situation and you're just kind of riding him. He took 24

shots last night, but there's not enough offense. If the Clips basically made the decision, we'll go for defense. We'll try to get stops and hopefully the crowd, we can get some energy. We'll hit a timely three and maybe that'll be enough. It didn't work. And yet with that said, I don't feel like this series is over yet because the sun's team, it's a, it's a very good team. It's not a great team.

And I'm, I'm not going to believe they're in the finals till they're actually celebrating that they're in the finals. You know what I mean? And eight and emergence aside, because i do think they have three legit stars but i do think i could see the clips going in there and making 19 threes and sending the game six back to la and i'm not completely sold on this phoenix team are you no i think good really good not great but i think that's going to be the lesson for whoever wins the finals i mean imagine

the clippers winning this whole thing without kawaii and the redemption tour it wouldn't even matter what paul george's stats were you just be like this guy won a title without kawaii if kawaii doesn't come back which i do want to get to at some point too as a topic um let's get to it now well yeah but it's the same thing for milwaukee i mean if milwaukee wins a title all the things that i was concerned with against a beat-up nets team where they still almost got eliminated in that like those things still exist i mean the same thing with Philadelphia and the same thing with like wait a minute Atlanta's in this like Atlanta could very easily win game three and you know again we'll see what happens later tonight when we tape it but before we get to

Kawhi let's just give Aiton a little love yeah let's do it now I'm ready the the big problem for the Clippers is that when they small teams to death, as we saw with Dallas, when it kind of turned the series and it absolutely turned the series in those closing games against Utah. I mean, Utah just, you know, they kept Gobert out there and they couldn't figure it out. Aiton is the rare species at the legit like old school center position who can stay on the floor against the small lineups. And what you have to do when you're out there and you're still a big is you have to, it's not your offense, even though it would have been nice to see anything from Gobert offensively, but that's just not going to happen. We know who he is as a player. You have to destroy that team on the boards.

And Aiton, I mean, look, the offensive rebounds have been incredible in the series, but he can stay on the floor, which is kind of the hope for any big that any team drafts as a young player. You're like, okay, this guy's really good. We like him. This is awesome. But what happens? Everybody goes small in a playoff game because there's like another thing that I want to expand on some point with you. Not, it doesn't have to be tonight, but I'm almost to the point where like the real evaluation of every player now comes down to like the last four or six minutes of a playoff game. It's like, that's when we learn really who is who in this league because the

numbers are so absurd. So Aiton won them game four. He won it with their rebounding. And he's been an incredible story because even in one of the wrap-up stories from last night was how Paul admitting that it wasn't always easy this year and Aiton being like, yeah, he yelled at me a lot, which is kind of a Chris Paul thing. But I think this is, if you paid attention to Aiton all season, to see him be this is an incredible journey from, I think at times in the regular season where you're like, what do you do with this guy? Like, who is he? What's the ceiling going to be? Because now my ceiling for him is completely adjusted. Last night, he looked like young Orlando Shaq

on some of those plays when the, especially the offensive rebounds, there were rebounds. He wasn't even getting, but he was near the ball or touching it or almost getting it. And there was a relentlessness to him. He certainly didn't have it six months ago. You know, I mean, he's locked in. It was interesting. I don't know if you noticed this,

but Rachel Nichols interviewed Chris after the game. And then he finished. And Aiton was right there waiting for him. Aiton was like, he had finished and he was just waiting. Like it was like, he was, it really reminded me of Gronk and Brady, which, you know, brings, brings us to like the whole Chris Paul piece of it. Like he had such a profound impact on Aiden. Aiden was talking about it last night.

He was like, this guy completely changed my life. Like he's brought out stuff for me. I didn't know I had, he's so competitive. I just feel like you can tell he's just like, I'm blessed to meet this dude. And it was the same stuff you would hear with like Gronk with Brady, where Gronk was just, he would have these 24 ounce Brady Kool-Aids and we'd be swinging them and eventually falls into Tampa. I feel like Aiton's going to follow Chris Paul wherever he goes until he retires. Right. Chris Paul's like, hey, we're going to Orlando. Hey, it's like, I'm in.

I'll get out of my contract. But I think when, you know, let's say Phoenix wins the title and we'll look back at it historically and we'll be like, man, how'd they do that? Chris was their only top 50 players, 37. And it's like, it wasn't just the season he had. He almost gets credit for like half a season for the Aiton stuff he basically willed this dude into becoming

a franchise center and this asset that I feel like if we did our top 40 again I think Aiton would have to be in the top like 18 or 19 now right that seems excessive in reacting to if I'm trying to win a title is there 20 guys you'd rather have them, he was trying to win a title. Is there,

there are 20 guys you'd rather have them. If I'm trying to win the actual title, I actually hate this. Cause then I have, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to throw that. No, I don't mean to say like,

I hate you. I mean, there's a very, since like, we get really excited in the moment about like, if you were to say, Hey, is eight and top 10 player,

like every TV show, excuse me, every top 20 player, every TV show would look at you in an, like an idiot for even like going hold on let me let me think about this i'm not saying you're right maybe i'm saying like top 20 asset if i'm trying to win the nba title assets different because what you said before about you look at this stuff and you're like what is this guy going to be like in the last four to six minutes of a playoff game as we see there's a lot of assets or great players or be like in the last four to six minutes of a playoff game? As we see,

there's a lot of assets or great players or whatever, but in the last four to six minutes of the playoff game, I'm not positive. I want them as much. Whereas Aiden is like, the dude's a problem. The Clippers had Zubats had to play more minutes last night than he's ever played in an NBA game because they had no other choice.

And nobody, nobody else put in eight, nine 22 rebounds last night. It felt like he had 30. And I, I don't know. I look at the next round. Milwaukee's, if it's Milwaukee, they're going to have more guys to throw at him.

But I think this is who he is. I saw a Perk tweet last night. I enjoy Perk's Twitter. I have a bookmark. Where he said, All the tweets. I don't go to Twitter. I have bookmarked people.

Perk was comparing him to David Robinson. And my first reaction was like, hold on, that's ludicrous. And then my second reaction was like, I can kind of work with this one. Athletically, he's kind of there. He doesn't have the offensive polish Robinson had, but just as a pure run the floor, around the rim, relentless motor athlete, he's in the proximity of a Robinson comparison. Six months ago, I would have thought that was insane. I would have been like, what are you?

You can't compare him to David Robinson. That's nuts, but it's kind of not nuts. Six months ago, it's absolutely nuts. Now, I mean, that one catch where he caught it and then like went to the finger roll, like he caught it and you look, okay, well, what's he what's he going to do? Is he going to have any chance in the coordination to catch it and then turn it back towards the rim? I think it's catching has gotten better.

He still had a couple last night where I, you know, again, if we're trying to give out a perfect grade, but he was the most important player to him. But as you mentioned, the Zubats minutes, the most he's ever played, like that's where the Clippers are like, hey, we'd love to go small here, but we can't because Aiton's going to stay out there all the time. And even if we try to do this attach, like he had a couple possessions where they got him on the switch on the ball handler and he held up big time. I mean, it's not just him protecting the rim or help defense. It's him getting ISO'd and having to stay in front of somebody. And he holds up really, really well. So now that part of it isn't there, which I still think, you know, because Paul was bad in the fourth quarter.

He was one of seven. Paul George was one of seven in the fourth quarter. But the thing is, is Chris Paul, you know, he did miss that one free throw, but he was five of six. And even though George was missing ones intentionally, that first one that he missed when they thought he was going to miss the second one intentionally. And then, of course, Boogie Cousins apparently not knowing the rule

that it has to touch the rim. That's tough. He had to have not known the rule, right? There's no way. My son knows that rule, and my son barely follows basketball. No kidding. He knows that rule? All right.

I actually think it's worse. I think Boogie was trying to hit the rim and just missed it by four feet. What's worse, not knowing the rule or knowing the rule and missing it by four feet? I think he knew the rule and was trying to whip it off the rim and couldn't have missed it more. That's my theory. Do you back my Shaq Orlando thing? Because I feel like Shaq Orlando has become this alternate human being, almost like there was two ultimate warriors and that we've had two variations of the same celebrity. We have friends,

Jennifer Aniston, and then like 2000s, Jennifer Aniston. Yeah. It doesn't feel related to like season one of friends. Jennifer Aniston feels like the two different people. Orlando Shaq was just this skinny, crazy athlete who was alley-ooping everything. Dayton's not like that. I mean, Orlando Shaq was 29 a game. But I think from the we can't keep this guy off the rim standpoint, I think it's legit. I don't think it's reactionary. I feel like this is who he is. I think a light bulb clicked with him.

And I think this is just who he's going to be for the rest of his career. There's a competitiveness to him. This isn't like, oh, he kind of fades. I don't know where he is. You know where he is in every quarter of these games. Yeah, he really fights I mean even when I wasn't quite sure then watching him you know whether it was the first round against the Lakers and then I mean Jokic is sitting there ready to like get a summer house with them after those guys play against each other and when you look at Aiton's numbers uh other than Houston I think which doesn't count for the most part because of what you're talking about roster wise there look at Aiton's numbers, other than Houston, I think,

which doesn't count for the most part because of what you're talking about roster-wise there, I think Aiton's best numbers were against Denver this year. So I'm not pushing. Look, my only pushback is like, okay, David Robinson was an incredibly skilled offensive player. No, David Robinson was amazing. Right. And even Shaq had more offense.

But Aiton has that touch. I mean, Aiton takes some turnaround jumpers where you're like, oh my God. Aiton takes some elbow jumpers where he kind of, oh my God. Aiton takes some elbow jumpers where he kind of settles into it, and it always looks great. And he hits his free throws. So the touch, the feel, and who knows,

in an alternate universe, if Aiton's the first pick in the mid-90s, you know, maybe he's getting posted up, which is still kind of crazy too. Like your offense is struggling this bad for Phoenix. And both offenses were a mess. So I don't even know if it's defensive intensity. I don't know if it's being tired.

I think it's all of these things. It tired i thought the defense i thought it was a really physical game last night uh yeah chippy very and it's only going to get more chippy which i'm kind of looking forward to a little bit but it's funny that you couldn't even like go hey do we just get eight and a touch on the block like do we do we even? I'm telling you, I think they should have done it because I think he's getting comfortable. No, I really do. I think he's comfortable. He's the first true center. We've had these kind of pseudo centers,

modern centers, they call it, stuff like that. And then there's like the Jokic kind of center. And then there's like the Embiid monster center. He's the first true center that felt like center and then there's like the Embiid monster center. He's the first true center that felt like where the league was going in the 90s and then with Dwight Howard where it's just like these 6'10 to 7'0 feet, super athletic, mobile, up and down, around the rim.

And I think Dwight's a good comparison because when Dwight had his moment, 2009, and he was basically 20 and 15, but they never ran plays for him. Um, I don't feel like he was as fun to watch as Aiton is. And Howard always had the free throw thing hanging over everything too, right? Where you felt like you could foul them in the end of games and then they would have to run the terrible Dwight Howard post that plays for him every once in a while. I think one of the things I love about Aiton is just how additive he is with everything.

He just brings stuff to the table. Doesn't really do anything that he can't do, you know, and doesn't, doesn't have an attitude about it. Doesn't seem to disappear. Hasn't gotten in foul trouble in any of these playoff games, which I think there was,

I think one, what was that? The Lakers series. But I thought last night had all the makings of like one of these games, Aiton's going to have 3,007 minutes. But he continually stays on the court, which I think is a skill too. And the fact that he can make

free throws, I just love what I see. I wrote a list of all the centers who were picked number one overall. And if you put everything down, it's pretty interesting because there's basically, there were six slam dunks. Hakeem,

let me start with Kareem. Are we going to hear all of them? No, no, no. I'm just giving you six. Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, and Bill Walton. Right? Those are the six where it's like,

man, that worked out great. Even Walton, they won the title with him before he got hurt. It's like, man, that was awesome. Then there's that next tier where it's like Dwight Howard, Ralph Sampson, Bob Lanier, Walt Bellamy, Brad Doherty, Townes, Yao. And I think Aiton's at least in that tier now. And you think if he can just stay healthy, I think we have a chance to remember him as

a really good number one franchise center pick, which you're thinking like for three years, the narrative was, I can't believe they didn't take Luca. I can kind of see why they took Aiton, but wow, they should take Luca. And now it's, I don't know. It's, it's not the worst thing in the world to have a franchise center who can run the floor, rebound, who gives a shit, who seems like an awesome teammate. If they're going to give him the max this summer, he's going to deserve it. He's probably going to get it already,

which is the way it works. But you're right. He checks so many of the boxes. And what seemed to happen, because look, I'm telling you, and I think people that watch the Suns all season long, it felt like if he would roll,

Paul and Booker would ignore him. You know, there was even some times where it looked like, you know, just they didn't trust him enough offensively. I just don't. And I think a lot of the quotes that were after the game last night kind of backed up some of that stuff where Paul was like, you know, we really had to work with him. We're trying to figure it out.

And to see where he's at now, I'm not pushing back on any kind of ceiling i'm not uh because look he doesn't even he actually doesn't get in foul trouble he averages like less than three fouls a game for his career he's 76 percent from the free throw line i don't think he shot his free throws as well in this series but again i mean you can just see it that he's a good free throw shooter there's three years of evidence against it but i'll i'll just my thing about the moment is there's always, that's kind of sometimes we make our mistakes. Like Stephen A. Smith was calling Booker the next Kobe. Well, that's dumb. A week ago.

Yeah, I don't agree with that. Okay, a week ago, if you had said, I don't know if Booker's a top 10 player, you actually look like an idiot on a show. When it's like, do your top 10 list and tell me who Booker's ahead of. I'm not saying he can't be a top 10, but he's a hell of a lot closer to 10 than he would be five. So I love everything from Aiton. I'm not going to push back on any of the ceiling stuff, but we're like,

I don't know. I mean, the asset part of it. And I also think this is kind of like a weird Luca thing that's going on because Trey's been awesome for the most part. I mean, whatever he had about gaming game two, I don't care. Luca's still, I mean, whatever he had about game in game two, I don't care. Luka's still, I mean, Luka's scary in the comparison, I think, of still the guys that have a better case

in that draft now. Well, and we're going to do a redraft later just for fun, just top 10 picks. Here's the thing with Aiton that I think has to be mentioned. When we talk about franchise centers, there always comes with flaws, warts. I wish this guy had this. I wish this guy had this.

I wish this guy did this. I wish he didn't do this. You know, like with Dwight, kind of a weirdo. Couldn't make free throws. And stopped asking for offensive close games. And that was why he was so mad at Orlando because he wanted the offense to run through him. And it's like, actually, man, you didn't really ever develop anything down there. Embiid, not in shape all the time, kept getting hurt.

Those are two real things, right? Shaq couldn't hit free throws. Seemed to, when the going got tough, there were times when it just seemed like his teams would go sideways for whatever reason. That was a real thing. With Aiton, I don't think he's as talented as Robinson or Shaq or people like that. But if you're going to talk about Patrick Ewing, who was... Georgetown Ewing is still the best defense rebounding center I've ever seen. I

wasn't old enough to see Russell and I can barely remember Walton. But Georgetown Ewing, never seen anybody protect the rim and patrol the paint like that. His knees weren't the same in the pros, but he started adding all this stuff offensively and he added a turnaround and he added a jump hook. And it was a guy who averaged like 29 a game, I think in the 89 or 90 season. And I don't know what Aiton's ceiling is going to be because we never see them run place for him. He's good hands. He can finish.

He's a great offensive rebounder. But if you told me like alright five years from now guess what Aiton's going to have like this sick 15 foot turnaround and he's going to have like this cool drop step and he's going to be averaging 24 a game like I don't know I wouldn't

rule it out I wouldn't have I would have ruled it out six months ago I just thought he was what he was but now the ceiling has risen let's take a quick break and then there's more to hit on this because this is ruled it out six months ago. I just thought he was what he was, but now the ceiling has risen. Let's take a quick break and then there's more to hit on this because I like the eight and top. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl ring. He rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health,

suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. So I mentioned the Tom Brady thing to you. I think one of the cool things about Chris and why we always compare him to, you know,

the point guards and quarterbacks and stuff like that, point guard is really the only position where you can have a dramatic impact on other players like that. Point guard is really the only position where you could have a dramatic impact on other players like that. Like you think about Nash in the mid 2000s on those Suns teams, right? You think about Jason Kidd in the early 2000s with Kittles and Kenya Martin and even Keith Van Horn or all those other dudes that was on there. He was always able to put Richard Jefferson. He was always able to pull the best versions out of those guys. That's what we grew up with, that we grew up with Magic and Bird and pulling the best versions of the players they played with, which is what a quarterback can do. And we've talked about Chris before when he retires,

what he takes with him. I think this is the biggest thing he takes is this quality of, if you put the right team around him, the impact he can have on different guys on the team and how they talk about him doesn't really exist. And, you know, as great as Trey is, and I think, I think he's gotten much better as a teammate. I think he's a very, very good distributor and playmaker and stuff like that. There's that last piece of like, is he going to pull out like a DeAndre Ayton type of metamorphosis performance? I wonder if Chris takes this with him when he retires. I don't know. How do you feel about the thought of the death of the point guard leader, I guess? Yeah, I think it's an endangered

species. Absolutely. I think we've talked about this a little bit before where we were pointing death of the point guard leader i guess yeah i think it's an endangered species absolutely yeah i think we've talked about this a little bit before where we were pointing to like specific chris paul plays where you go i think he might be the only point guard left who does this i think gary payton's another guy i think gary payton was the kind of guy where it was like all right you know i'll get you over here okay let me make sure you get a touch in the corner let me get my big a touch and then he would feel like okay wait a minute like it's time for me to get mine yeah and he understood the balance of possessions incredibly well because i was actually talking stockton's another one stockton's perfect because stockton could have shot way more uh but he didn't i mean you know granted they ran the same

same thing for for a decade plus and it worked out really well uh but i do think that that you know and even though i think the trade criticism is fair i think we're looking at it in the third year in being like okay well you know we're like trey's already smashed through so many ceilings that we've had for him that maybe that happens to him even down the road i would have never thought it would have happened when the first version i've seen him hell joe varden had a piece on the athletic the other day just mentioning after game one, like teammates, specifically Collins and then others where he was like, you know,

it wasn't always easy with Trey either, which again, you know, all you had to do was watch this stuff at his, during the younger, younger stage of his career. But the weird thing is, is anytime we had a scoring point guard, we didn't like that guy as a draft prospect. I know I didn't, I didn't like that guy as a draft prospect. I know. I didn't even like Dame Lillard. Right.

And so it was okay to only have like, what, two and a half scores on the floor at the same time because then you needed the rest of the balance. That's just not what this game is anymore. So even back to your Aiton point, Aiton may be capable. Aiton may be able to score 25 a game, but nobody even wants to run a play for him. And here's Chris Paul, who all these things they never had like one moment I don't even think where they said hey why don't we just get him on the block like it doesn't even happen so I think scoring is such an emphasis and not just shooting but making sure you have as many guys that can like hoping to have four if not five because the way you're

defended now if you have somebody out there you don't have to guard and two guys you don't have to guard it's a huge problem so the scoring point although frowned upon is the future which again eliminates kind of that caring point guard that we see with chris paul and some of the other guys you mentioned that are gone now do you think kate cunningham could have this quality potentially i like the way he controls a game you know when he was making some of those runs it wasn't just to scoring it was decision making and that's why so many people have them number one i mean i'd still need to do more work on him but that's a lot to ask to go hey is this guy going to come in and do that kind of stuff because Because like how many guys, Bill, would you even put in that category? I remember in 05,

I thought Chris should have been the first pick. And that was what I was writing that year because I watched some of his Georgia Tech games and he was so much better than his teammates. What, Wake Forest? Wake Forest, sorry. He was so much better than his teammates. And you could kind of see it in the games where

you know like well he's shorter in your i'm just i was just watching some of the stuff he was doing like man imagine if he had good teammates he was mad at everybody too it was the first thing that i loved he was so pissed off and i'm like i love this guy and then he got that punch in the ball moment whatever and then he got a little rap for he's a hothead but he was just a state game i think yeah he was no different in 2005 than he rap for he's a hothead. NC State game, I think. Yeah. He was no different in 2005 than he is now. He's ordering everybody around. But I do wonder, and we've talked about this

before, but if you're a young point guard, do you emulate Chris or do you emulate Damian Lillard? You probably emulate Damian Lillard and you're taking 25-footers. That's just what the point guard position became. But I'm going to miss it. Can we talk about... Get the Kawhi stuff in there.

Yeah, let's get the Kawhi stuff in there. I think the Clippers win this series with Kawhi. I think there's two teams Phoenix would have lost to if the best guy on the other team didn't get hurt. I'm not being a dick. That's how I feel. I think the Clippers would have been better. Especially when you think of the breaks that they got in this series,

we have Devin Booker playing with a broken nose, which the announcers did not spend nearly enough time in the pregame, postgame, during the game, talking about what it's like to have a broken nose and then try to play basketball and have a mask on. And just like how, what a fucking deterrent that is. And then you have Chris post COVID is not the same. He was like 14 for 42 in those two games, I think something like that.

Um, and then on top of it, campaign was injured game three. And then in game four, it was abominable. Um, I just think if the clips that had Kawhi, it's at least two, two right now, and maybe even three, one. And I think they had the best team in the West I do really so you felt that way like when did that happen because it couldn't have happened I thought that way during the Utah the game four against Utah that I went to when I didn't realize Kawhi was hurt now I left that game thinking they were going to make the finals now the Lakers were out

if the Lakers had been in it I don't know who wins the Lakers Clippers series, but I left game four going, wow, that team's going to make the finals. They've figured it out. They've figured out their lineups. They have the Kawhi George combo. They've figured out how to balance that, and they have three-point shooting, and they're malleable, and that team's making the finals.

And then he was never seen again. Maybe. You know what? I mean mean the argument is on your side uh you could also argue clippers could be up two one or three one in this series if they made their free throws in game four and paul george made two free throws at the end of game two and the way they defended the inbounds for the valley you there at eight and cousins played it flat to the baseline and should have been back and shading it did you you see the TikTok clip of that, that the guy took courtside? Yeah. Cousins left the whole basket open. I couldn't.

Well, it was the first thing I look at because when I first was taught about, you know, this is what you have to do because, you know, if somebody catches a pass behind you in less than a second, okay, fine. If they make the shot, they make the shot. But that's a tougher angle to cut off. So cut off the angle towards the rim and he played it flat to the baseline and you know whatever i mean by the way van gundy put on an absolute like sensei uh broadcasting moment there when he was just he was covering everything he knew every

single rule he was he was like on another level so shout out to jeff van gundy but but somehow didn't know booker fouled out yesterday but but that's fine. Everybody kind of forgot Booker fouled. It was Mark Jackson was saying they took him out because of foul trouble. It took them five minutes to realize he fouled out. It was weird. I blame the support staff that the broadcast team has. Somebody should point out that the best player in the Suns has fouled out. Support staff.

Support staff. Come on, support staff. All right, so maybe you're right. Maybe you're right with this because if you're going to do that, then you're like, oh, I staff all right so maybe you're right maybe you're right with this because you know if you're going to do that then you're like oh i would have chris paul because you're right game three felt like a chris paul trying to figure himself out here and then i thought he was flat out exhausted but he also didn't shoot it well too so i'm not going to sit there and make a ton of excuses for him do you think who i make he kind of sucks to deal with

does anybody bring this up because i'm asking you right now i read all the new stuff today i've heard all the different varying. I've heard his ACL is gone. I heard it isn't gone. I heard he was shopping for doctors. I heard he isn't. So don't aggregate any of this because I don't know. I'm just saying I've heard a million things.

But then the story comes out today that he's not happy with the staff. And I think the one thing that we have learned with Kawhi is nobody knows what's going on. Kawhi just Kawhi's. And you'd think you'd think there might be just a little bit more communication or maybe i don't know i mean maybe i'm so far removed from it that i have no idea but i'm simply asking it as a theory like other guys would get crushed for this and it seems that everybody's just kind of cool with it when if he truly isn't in conversation with the team because he's mad about something like hey we're also trying to win a playoff series here and maybe win a title.

I know he was at practice a couple of days ago, but I don't know. I don't think he played or anything like that. So it's not like he's just divorced himself from the team. I agree that I think it's super weird. I think he is hard to deal with. But he reminds me of like a non-fun Manny Ramirez because we we live the Manny thing. Boston fans for nine years where it's just like this

mercurial enigma. You never know what the fuck day to day, week to week, what he's thinking, what he's doing. Why is he upset? Why didn't he run that ball out? And he was just an enigma. That's how Manny being Manny started. And Kawhi, well, Kawhi is Kawhi. Anytime they say, I've always said this, it's an Adam Carollai. Anytime they say, I've always said this, it's an Adam Carolla theory. Anytime somebody says the name twice in a row or twice in the same sentence, you know the guy's a nightmare.

It's like, what's Rosillo like to deal with? Ah, you know, Rosillo's Rosillo. You know, it's like, basically I'm saying Rosillo's a huge asshole. And with Kawhi, you talk to anyone on the Clippers, they're like, ah, you know, Kawhi's Kawhi. I guess we'll find out when he's going to play. I just think this is the league we're in now in 2021.

These organizations are so abjectly terrified of their best players. They don't want to cross them, put pressure on them, make them mad. They're afraid to confront them. It's the most bizarre thing in the world. The Stars run the league, like, literally.

They run the league to the point that this Clippers team's trying to make the finals and Kawhi won't even tell them how he's feeling. It's weird. But we also have evidence. I mean, the San Antonio thing was still weird. Toronto, he got sent there. The San Antonio thing to Popovich, who is

the most beloved coach of the last 20 years, and guys are singly handedly signing up to play in his Olympic team right now who don't even want to go to the Olympics just because he's coaching. And Kawhi was the one guy who they, even Pop couldn't connect to them. I remember the first time I heard

about the discontent with San Antonio. It was through a weird source. It was very weird. source it was very weird and it was like hey are you hearing anything about kawaii and the spurs like not being on the same page and i went i don't know you know i don't know i don't know i'm not there i'm not a beat guy but you never know rumor gossipy stuff and then i sent a note to somebody um and i could tell when the person didn't respond to me at all, I was like, oh, wait. And then that was the first time we really learned about the real Kawhi.

You're like, this guy, as you said, is the only dude to just throw his middle finger up at the whole Spurs culture thing. But when it comes to the injuries of the players, I don't know what to believe or not, because I don't know, like you'd think the team wants to keep the health of a long term asset uh in their best interest but other people specifically former athletes that are on television that are on radio seem to think that like the team doctors are the most evil people in any professional setting ever so yeah and sometimes they are yeah so i'm not that's one of those where i can't really take a side other than it seems like the players

are usually always going to side with the players. So then he goes to Toronto. He didn't know Toronto or anything. He gets him a title. He wants to bounce. Somebody really knew what the hell was going on. That was fine. The stuff about him not wanting to play with LeBron

became stronger and stronger as it came down to it, even though LeBron pitched him and said, look, if you're going to play in LA, you've got to be a Laker. You're not going to want to be a Clipper. He's like, ah, whatever. Teams up with Paul George, who I don't think he knew enough about Paulorge because during the times where it wasn't great he's probably going like and then we're even wondering what if they

got really weird what if they were to lose to dallas could kawai say all right i'm about like he's capable of anything but in your um position of being scared more now than ever it's totally accurate and actually it's probably the right tact but you would still think if you're part of a team and all your teammates are counting on you, or they want to know, like, are you in, are you out? Are you showing up to work every day? Not really knowing you think you'd have some allegiance to them to want to, I don't know, convey that a little bit better, I think than what we're rumored to be hearing. Well, if you're really hurt, it's way better just to say you're really hurt because then people aren't asking everybody, what's going on with Kawhi? When's he come back? Why distract everybody else when they're trying to make the finals? And if you're not really hurt,

but you're hurt, but not hurt in a way that you might be able to come back, why not communicate more with it? The veil of secrecy thing, I've just never understood. hurt, but you're hurt, but not hurt in a way that you might be able to come back. Why not communicate more with it? The veil of secrecy thing, I've just never understood because all it does is make people talk about it more. You know what everybody's going to say? It's like, oh, San Antonio, or excuse me, in this case, Phoenix won't know. And it messes with, I think that stuff is so overrated. I mean, maybe for a game, but eventually you just tip it up and you're not thinking like, oh, all of our trapping schemes. We're so confused now because we just, the uncertainty of Kawhi, every single playoff game.

I think it matters in football. Like if you have a big football playoff game and it's like, is Tyreek Hill playing or not? You have to practice like he is. And then he's not like, I can see that if it's one game. Yeah. But not for like NBA at some point it's just like who's who's out there all right let's play those guys but it's not like you're gonna change what you're doing the quarterback one is always kind of funny because then people will just

it's a religious like well you know now you're gonna prepare for two guys like oh I have to prepare for this guy and Brian Hoyer oh shit oh no. Oh, no. Tavares Jackson, we got to run plays for his option stuff. Yeah. I think it's weird. I think Kawhi's had a very strange career. He's going to go down as one of the best 30 players ever. And he won multiple titles.

And I think he would have made the finals this year with that Lakers break. The other piece of this, look, it's post-pandemic. Everybody's out and about. I wouldn't say there's Clipper fever in LA right now. Does it even feel like an LA team is a couple wins away from the NBA finals?

Because it does not. I don't know. I don't live in LA. I live in a five-block area. Is Manhattan Beach on fire with Cooper's talk right now? Like it's like two games at the Staples Center recently where everybody in your life, like, oh man, trying to get down to the Staples to see the Clips playoff game. Whatever they tried to do here doesn't seem like it's succeeded in a win over the local landscape way. I just feel like people care way more about the Dodgers right now, personally. I've heard a lot of Dodger stuff.

People talk about how hard it is to get into Dodger Stadium. You know, any of the Clippers are building this new arena. It's just all of it's weird. And would you bet your life that Kawhi is on the team next year? No, I wouldn't bet my life. I mean, honestly, would you bet your life that Kawhi is on the team next year? No. I mean, honestly, would you bet your life if Kawhi dot dot dot, every time the answer is going to be no? Would you? It's a crazy one because I really

honestly, genuinely think they would have made the finals. I think they would have beaten Phoenix. I think they had a more complete team. You think they had a more complete team. You think they had a more complete team than Phoenix? I think that was the one thing we all liked about Phoenix. I think they were deeper and more malleable and had more ways

to win a game. You've even seen with the Sun stuff, Booker's a star. Booker's not a every single game I'm giving you 29. He's not at that level yet. I think he could get there in two years. If you see him on the right night, you're like, wow, Devin Booker.

He's really put it together, but he's still a little inconsistent. And it's one of those things like when you talk about real greatness, the consistency is the last piece of it, right? You could even talk about high school, a club soccer team, anything. It's like, there's always that one kid who's every game, you know what you're getting from that kid. And that's the best part of the team. I still don't feel like with Booker, do I know every game he's going to put up 29 to 34? Like the way Dame, the level Dame got to over the last couple of years, where you're just like, I know what I'm getting from Dame. Was the rest

of the team going to show up? I don't know if Booker's quite there yet. But I think so with the Clippers, like I just feel like between Kawhi and George, every single game, one of those guys was awesome, you know? And so it was like a superstar combo thing where you just knew one of those guys was going to be really good in the game. And that was a huge advantage. I just like the team. The Reggie Jackson part of it's been incredible. Look, I know he didn't shoot very well in game four, but he's actually a guy now where he pulls up, you're scared of him.

I mean, that's how good he is as an ISO offensive player. And then taking centers off the dribble and being kind of unafraid. i don't know i certainly didn't see any of it coming in my lifetime here's here's what i would push back on all of them we're talking about booker with a broken nose we're talking about covid chris paul so whatever version of the sons that you've seen still up three one if you're saying hey give me kawaii all right well let me let me get no covid chris paul and no broken nose face mask Booker where he took the mask off. Yeah, fair.

I still like the Suns. And I also think there was a weird moment for Paul George where now he had no excuses. Like it was only about you now. You can't rely on Kawhi Leonard to bail you out. So it felt like Paul George responded to that in a big way. Maybe if Kawhi is still around, we're still sitting there wondering if Kawhi wants to stick around and attach himself to Paul George responded to that in a big way. Maybe if Kawhi's still around, we're still sitting there wondering if Kawhi wants to stick around and attach himself to Paul George under contract. The other part of Kawhi, if he's actually this hurt again, he may just take all that money from the Clippers anyway.

Just go, whatever. I'm just going to take it all now, and I'll figure it out, and I'll ask out if I want to because I'm Kawhi Leonard. Here's where I'll argue against myself. Here's the case for the Suns. They're big three now that Aiton has gone up a level. It was really good. They don't have that top 11 in the league superstar, but when Aiton's your third best guy,

it's a pretty good spot to be in. I would say he might be, other than what Brooklyn has, the best third guy in the league now. Right? For Marcus Smart? Oh, shit. I got to think remember Marcus Smart. Oh, shit. I got to think about that more.

Let's take one more break. How can you be sure your child is making the right decision when choosing a university? The smart approach is to look at the facts. Like the fact that York U graduates have a 90% employer satisfaction rate. That's because across its three GTA campuses, York U's programs are strategically designed to prepare students for a meaningful career and long-term success. Join us in creating positive change at yorku.ca slash write the future. Last thing on Suns clips, the demons factor. See if the Suns, only two finals ever, right?

76 and 93. And then in this series, it's looking great. And then Chris Paul gets COVID and Booker breaks his nose. And all of a sudden you're like, uh-oh. But now it seems okay. Still 3-1, it's not done yet. Chris Paul has, as he said in the interview yesterday, it's not like he doesn't have a history with three-win leads.

Then you have the Clippers, who, again, I left that Utah game four thinking that they were going to make the finals. I was like, Jesus Christ, I'm going to get to go to finals games in LA. This is amazing. And then now you have the Clipper Demons kicking up, which they've had some of the worst luck of any franchise ever. It's almost like a Demon-Loser-Leaves-Town match. Loser-Demon-Leaves-Town match.

Retirement Demon match. Retirement match. I guess the Suns could get it back if the finals happen. And they lose a finals thing. So you think if Kawhi was playing, you would still like the Suns? I know that sounds ridiculous because how close the series has been. That's fair. But so you like you think if Kawhi was playing, you would still like the Suns.

I know that sounds ridiculous because how close to serious has been. But I mean, which version of the Suns am I getting? Am I getting COVID Chris Paul and Broken Nose Booker? Then you're right. Then I think Kawhi wins. But if we're if we're playing an imaginary game here and everybody's square and there aren't any of these issues, I still really like Phoenix. 2018 redraft. Luca still goes first.

Alright, let me pull up my notes here. I don't want anyone to get crazy and think Luka, who's the best 22-year-old player we've ever had in the league, isn't going first, because he is. Would anyone? I know there's always one guy out there that does

what we do. Stop. Second pick, Trey or Aiton? I have Trey. It's got to be Trey. I had Trey too. Trey single-handedly doing what he can do offensively and not being dependent on anyone else breaks. It's not even a tie.

Trey proving he can win multiple rounds as the best player on a playoff team. Yeah. Lands him the second spot. Aiton, I think, is a worthy third. It's a great draft. Those are three really good picks. Aiton's going to make multiple all-star teams. Over Robert Williams.

I had him over Timelord. Okay. I have Aiton third as well. So after that drop-off, and I think it's either SGA Porter or Triple J who do you have SGA his statistical

season this year was insane but also invisible so well then he became the first guy ever to the youngest guy ever to be tanking victimized by tanking he's like 22 not allowed to play i have i also had sga fourth and i had porter fifth over uh triple j

yeah i do too i mean porter we know his shot making is like really really special um defensively he's improved from almost unplayable to still potentially a disaster. There's not... If you want to be a little anti-Porter, you could say he's got to start doing some of those other things to be a star in the league.

But the fact that he goes from middle of the first round pick, despite the high school pedigree, because his medicals were red flag city, to hitting big shots and big games i mean his shot making alone this is probably the lowest he could go because i really don't think you can put anybody else ahead of him here because the ceiling too for the offense there's a major injury risk thing with him though and even like he barely made it through a round and a half

in the playoffs before he was banged up in there. And that's, everyone talks about how bad his medicals were, all that stuff. He, to me, he has to be a top five and I have him fifth. I had triple J six, but make the Kevin Herter case for me. An energy that he brings to your franchise that could,

that can carry you in the darkest days. Especially cause he's so pale. He's, you can can carry you in the darkest days especially because he's so pale he's you can actually see him in the dark we do have triple j or herder at six i bet you herder still has there's no i in team high school shirts uh i have mikhail bridges after porter Mikael Bridges after Porter Jr. Wow. Okay. I put Triple J and then I had Bridges and then Herter. That was my 7, 8, 9. The reason I had Triple J is he's still like 21.

He's like one of those, wait, how young is he? He's like 21. He might be 22 now, but Verno pointed this out to me. He came in when he got drafted. I think he was 18. So he was born September 1999.

So he turns 22 in September. Talent-wise, he's probably no worse than third or fourth in this draft. But when you factor in the injuries, I could see him, an argument for him

still being fifth ahead of Porter Jr., ahead of Bridges. But I like the way Bridges fits. I think Bridges could, if you wanted to put him, if he was on a terrible team, we'd probably be talking about, okay, well, Bridges is like, wow, what's this guy's ceiling? But I think he plugs in all the holes.

Well, you know I love him. You know what I love about him? He was like one for six. I think it was game one or game two. And they ran the game winning play oh it was the game when it went out of bounds and then it led to the alley oop the valley oop I called it the

eight oop but valley was better but they ran the game winning play for bridges and he was like one two for six or you know he it's not like he was like lighting it up but they really trusted him which I thought was cool did you get any retweets off the eight and oop? Cause I'm wondering like, did it just not catch on? Was the time of day when you did it? I just didn't see value, but you know what? I'll be honest with you. I think eight years ago, I would have seen it.

I think it was just age 20 years ago. I definitely see it. I see it right away. Eight years ago. I think I see it now, you know, now that I'm 51 years old, didn't see it. I see it right away. Eight years ago, I think I see it. Now, you know, now that I'm 51 years old, didn't see it. Missed it. You're five years away from tweeting out amazing dunk. Dunk noop. I've heard her nine.

I have Miles Bridges 10 and I have Colin Sexton 11. I was surprised that Sexton didn't make my top 10, but he just didn't. His metrics are horrible. Yeah, he's really, it doesn't seem like he's a winning player.

Although after what happened with Trey the last six months, I'm now like super gun shy to say somebody is a good stats, bad team guy. But everything we saw from Sexton, it just seems like it doesn't translate to wins yet. So I'm going to say yet because who knows? Maybe he'll see the win. Okay, wait a minute. You went

faster. Give me your six through ten slash eleven again. So Luka, Trey, Aiton, SGA. We agreed on that. We agreed on Porter five. Triple J, Bridges, Herter, Miles, Bridges, Sexton. So I have Sexton tenth. I'm sorry. I can't remember.

No Mitchell Robinson. No, he gets hurt too much. I had him ninth and I put Sexton 10th. I got to be honest. I thought Williams is 11th though. I thought long and hard about Grayson Allen

and where I could shoehorn him in. Because I, when you talk about guys in the last six minutes of a playoff game, I do think he's one of those guys. I really trust him in close playoff games.

I think he's not afraid to shoot. He knows where to go. And I wish the Celtics had somebody like him. Define how long you spent on debating Grayson Allen being the 10th guy. I thought about him versus Sexton from this standpoint. I know Sexton's a better basketball player, but if I'm trying to win the title,

which of those two guys is more realistic to have in a nine-man rotation? Because if Sexton is my point guard, that means I'm losing the point guard battle against just about everybody else in the league every night. Right? Unless he's a backup for me, unless he's campaigned for me, basically.

But if I have Grayson Allen, it's like, that's my ninth man. I know what he is. And I feel like that's somebody who could be in a championship rotation. I think for Sexton, campaign's a good example. It's like, can he be campaigned on a winning team? Yeah. But I think he thinks he should be a star. And that's where it gets dicey for me with the good stats bad team guys i was uh i was sexton was the biggest question i had going into the whole thing i thought the rest of it was pretty self-explanatory bridges over jackson because the health if jackson is

healthy i think we'd see a version of him where you go hey i really like bridges be gonna go with jackson because of what he could be but But Sexton, I actually did spend too much time on the Sexton part of it because I kept trying to find better stats and they're all terrible. Yeah, they're all bad. And then you just go, okay, but he can still get 20 a game. I can't have 10 guys ahead of him. Aaron Holiday, Marvin Bagley, and Wendell Carter Jr. are still on the board. What is your draft room telling you? My accountant has told me to take the loss in the Wendell Carter Jr. position for a while. He's like, let's just take it.

It's good. It's good for the rest of your stocks. Write this one off as a loss. It's good for the other gains. I'm like, yeah, but the door's still open. They still have an HR department over there? I'm not writing him off yet. How about Bagley? I think Bagley would be better somewhere else.

I just don't think he's very good. That's a tough one for Sacramento to end up with Bagley in the Luka trade draft when you had the second pick. It's tough. It's tough. It's tough. The Kings are going to come up once again for us in one second.

But first, we did a draft lottery live show. It was presented by State Farm. Had a great time. Every single year, you've got these fresh new talents applying mad pressure on the court to achieve their spot in the draft. It's actually refreshing to see these new faces and learn what they're all about. You know, you think about, I don't know, Jalen Green. He's a new face looming.

We didn't really get to watch him play college. There's rumors he could go as high as second pick to the Houston Rockets. I think there's a team that would have taken him one had they won the lottery. But they didn't. How about this? I think there's a team that would have taken him one had they won the lottery. But they didn't. How about this? I'm not ruling him out for one. Are you a Jalen Green guy? I'm not an anyone guy yet.

I haven't done enough research yet. But I think, I do think he's going to go to Houston at two. And here's the thing. You can't always anticipate who will get drafted for next season. But with State Farm, you can anticipate

the personalized service of a local agent all for a surprising great rate. Like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. With that draft, quickly, because you had KFC and yours. I did the live lottery show. But I've been looking at it. I started doing my homework.

I have two predictions. I think Kaminga drops. I've done all my initial Kaminga recon. And there's some red flags that I don't like. I don't like when they switch high schools. There's a lot of high school switches that scares me immediately. And I didn't like the G League thing that he had. Be more specific.

G League thing that he had. There's ambivalent competition issues with him. Oh, okay. So you're talking about him specifically his, his G games. Yeah. Um, and he just seems to me,

Orlando has five and eight. And it seems like one of those things where Orlando would pass on him at five and be like, oh man, we've made this mistake before, but then at eight, he'll be too enticing to turn down and they'll take him.

And my point is, so I'm obsessed with the Warriors at seven here because I really think if they nail the right guy, that they will be the favorite in the West next year. But the draft still has to shake out correctly for them. And one of the things they need to happen is for Kaminga to go like five or six to push down somebody who actually might play for them next year.

I do not think that's going to happen. And I think they're going to be in this situation where Scottie Barnes is probably going to go fifth because I think he's going to be the Patrick Williams of this year where everybody just likes him. He gets more and more buzz and he goes fifth, maybe even fourth. Maybe there's like a Toronto thing. Who knows? But Kaminga drops. So at seven, the Warriors with Donovan Mitchell's spiritual brother, Damian, six feet, turns 23 next season.

Can I just interject real quick? Because I just feel like Jordan Mitchell, Donovan Mitchell's brother has been like left out a lot. So I just want to give him a mention. Sorry, Jordan. I'm glad we gave him some love. But I think seven seems like it's too early. All of our ringer draft people think it's too early to take them. Golden State's

at seven and 14. And I'm just so fascinated to see what they do because on Zach Lowe's podcast, they were talking about could Wiseman seven and 14, what could that get you? How high could that get you in this draft?

Could that get you to two? Could that get you to Houston? Would Houston be like, cool, we get Wiseman seven and 14 for two. And then if you go on state, you take Mobley and Mobley could play right away for you. I'm just fascinated to see what they do with that what do you think?

If they internally think Wiseman sucks then okay but then you're still taking another guy that you're still not 100% sure of even if the valuation the newness factor always adds value to it I was wondering would you do Wiggins 7-14 for

Simmons? Would you do it if you're Philly? Wow, that's a good one. You never thought of that one? You made me stop and my brain started. Wiggins 7-14. I don't think I would do it if I was golden state.

There's a one reason why I wouldn't. And it's because I don't think you play Simmons and green together. Very good. Three on five offensively. Passed it. What if you were golden state and said, all right, we'll do it for a year,

but then we'll move on from dream on. And now we have Simmons is this switching ridiculous perimeter guy. That's going to have all sorts of just open runs to the hoop because you're going to have to guard our spacing they still have to add probably more shooting but well do you think golden state would do the thousand points of light we bring ben simmons into our world and we'll we'll turn him into the superstar he's meant to be because we're the golden state warriors i think they'd love the idea of him not having you know a huge really good center in the middle of what they were doing the whole time but i think a lot of people are lying to themselves about the ben simmons evolution and what the ultimate version of him is going to be it's going to look better somewhere

else away from mb but i still think those limitations for him as a perimeter player are always going to be there i I'd be shocked. You seriously think in three years, you're like, man, everybody said Ben Simmons couldn't shoot. Look at him now. I've had more Ben Simmons off the podcast just shooting the shit conversations with basketball people in my life than any player

in a couple years. What's the consensus? Give me the extremes. Give me the consensus. This is what I can't get past. How is he better in the last three years other than defensively he's gone up a level? But offensively, what's better about him than in 2018

against the Celtics in that playoff series? How has he changed? What has he added? I think he's worse because he's even less confident now from the free throw line. And then you hear this stuff about he's a perfectionist. That's why he doesn't shoot threes. That's what

Jackie Mack was hypothesizing on the pod on Thursday. He wants to be good so badly. He's afraid to fail, basically. I just don't know what he is because he's 24 now. And look, shit can happen,

new situations, all that stuff. And I think you and I both feel like he could be the front man for some fast-paced team where he's like the five. We've talked about this 17 times. Right, probably not a great team though, right? It's probably not a great team. And I just really, I don't like when guys don't get better. Really. It really bothers me. And I feel the same way about some of the Celtics

guys that we've had over the years where you just look at, like, I'm looking at Marcus Smart. It's like, is Marcus Smart better than he was three years ago? He's not even, he's in his late twenties now. What has he added? How is he better? Well, oh, he's a slightly better three point shooter. It's like, do you think they're going in? What's he better at? I feel like physically he's worse. I don't feel like he's as good of a defender as he was three years ago. You know, with Simmons, I think he's an incredible defensive player and the Philly buzz has already started from their side, but Hey, watch out with saying that Ben was awful in that series because he made Trey.

Go look at Trey's stats. Go look at Trey's stats in the series. I've heard all those arguments. I just feel like he's such a liability offensively. Why would you trade real assets for him? That's the part I don't get. I think Philly today with all this Dame-Millard stuff probably thinks that they're in the mix

if Dame gets traded with a Simmons package. And it's like, let me tell you something. You you're probably not that's not enough to get dame lewis no i mean unless there was some really weird power play where you go like harden where you say hey this is where i want to go and it still wasn't a certainty you know but he ended up getting his way but i i don't. I don't think Ben Simmons is going to say, we should frame it the other way. I don't know if Dame is going to go,

I only want to go to Philly, so figure it out. That would be cool if he said that. I think Dame and Embiid together would be really fun. I think it would be awesome. The Simmons stuff, I want to stay on it just real quick because everything you said is fair.

Some guys just don't get better. Some guys actually don't get better. And I don't know. For the Golden State side of it, I was trying to figure out if there were different trades available, all this different stuff. The Draymond and Simmons on the floor at the same time thing is a problem. It's just a problem. And honestly, if you were Philly, are you sure you want to sign up for Wiggins? As bad as

they need a ball handling creator who can drive, shoot, like they need somebody that, you know, we're talking about a really good player, a profile of a really good player, of a guy that can, you know, like a Devin Booker type. I mean, if Philly had a Devin Booker type, they'd be so much better and different, and you'd have to worry about him in such different ways at the end of a playoff game, but they're not going to get him, obviously. Wiggins and Philly would be tough. Wiggins and Philly just isn't enough.

No, I'm just saying, I don't know if their fans would really. That's not a Philly type of player. Well, all right, let's say by some miracle, the, the hardened thing is redone. And Lord says, I demand to play in Philly. And they trade a whole bunch of assets.

They get Dame. And then Philly, I mean, I'm sorry, Portland at that point, you probably have to trade McCollum too. And you're doing the full rebuild. Right.

And then maybe Ben Simmons gets the bad rebuilding team we thought he deserved anyway. We should talk about well, actually, I had a couple more lottery things for you. Zach brought this up on his pod. I had been thinking it all week, but I don't want to seem like I stole from Zach because Zach's

my guy. But basically why would an OKC completely overpay for Cade Cunningham if they thought he was that good? I guess the question is nobody's sure if Cade Cunningham's that good. But if you're OKC, you have so many picks, why not just pay 150 cents on the dollar for an asset? And in this case, if you got Cade, you have Cade and SGA. Now I have a real backcourt. Now there's something going on here, right? now i have something this is a foundation and if poku ends up being good which i'm more than dubious of but now that

now i really have something so kate and poku play together this is probably the real i don't know would poku want kate would he demand a trade no he wants four rebounders oh but uh but the whole model of somebody saying this is the part Zach didn't say we've seen this happen in NBA trades right where the price for what teams are willing to give up to get a star transformed over the last

four years and you had it with the Kawhi trade the Anthony Davis trade the fucking Drew Holiday trade where it's like wow they just gave a shitload. I can't believe it, but nobody's doing that with draft picks yet. And I wonder like, could OKC be the first team who says, fuck it. We're overpaying for your, for the asset that we want. They might be. It's an awesome question. It's a great discussion. The only thing I would present,

and I'm not saying, no, that's ridiculous because maybe it is. Maybe that would happen. I could see Presti still being like, who cares that I have 17 picks in the first round, 18 picks here, and all these second rounders.

I'm not just going to overpay because I have the picks. Well, he wants to win every trade, as they always say. That's why this wouldn't happen because you have to suck it up I have the picks. Well, he wants to win every trade, as they always say. That's why this wouldn't happen. Because you have to suck it up at some point and be like, all right, history will show that I gave up too much for this asset, but as part of a larger plan.

Now, we talked about this on the lottery show, because KOC was on it immediately with OKC trading up. They could go from six to three, go to grab that Cleveland pick, get some, you know, so it's like a mini trade up and still get in the top three and do it that way if they want.

Because if Jalen Green is there at three, I'm not, Cleveland has already made this mistake before, but the classic mistake of, oh, we already have guards. We don't need Jalen Green. Meanwhile, he's a better prospect than both of the guards they have. So I don't know.

I feel like there's trade-up potential with OKC. Yeah, it would depend on how it broke down. But if Oklahoma City really liked Jalen Green and he's still sitting there at three, that's fine. But that also means if they really like Jalen Green, do they like him as much as good? Do they like him better than Cunningham? So it depends on what their evaluation of Cunningham is,

which we're never going to know because Presti keeps it pretty tight there. He does. I think it's a really interesting topic. I just don't know if he fits the profile of a GM who's like, screw it, let's just throw three extra picks at these guys and go get Cade cunningham kade cunningham not the no-brainer number one pick like we've had in some years even though i think people like him yeah he feels like he's been presented that way all year but i don't think that's it's that this isn't anthony davis no

no that's the best way i mean even blake griffin even though that yeah it happened a little bit later the funny one was towns towns wasn't like the slant. Like Okafor, the beginning of that year, was supposed to be the guy. Barrett was supposed to be better than Zion. So if you go through it, there's different ones. There was even Derek Rose was a late. He was. It was like, you know what?

Hey, you know who might go one is Rose. Rose might go one. Yeah. Then he has a tournament run and all that kind of stuff. So I would not put... I'm with you. I wouldn't put Cade in the Anthony Davis category of guys. I think there's real Jalen Green could go one or

two potential. And I've only begun to do my work and begun to talk to people, but I think these GMs want the home run upside pick, especially if you're Raphael Stone. You take Mobley, like great. Mobley will be a really, really good player.

I like him a lot. But Green could be a superstar, you know? And we saw it last year with Edwards in Minnesota where the closer that draft came, they became seduced by the superstar possibility with him. Maybe it happens with Green. Green really might be that good. But I think for Detroit, it's probably

there's some culture stuff there too. We had Jarrett Jack on my pod and I wanted to have him on specifically because he played for Team Ignite. And I was talking with KOC about this this week as well. When you would do like, alright, so this week whatever, I did my Franz Wagner scouting report. I did the kid from Texas, Greg Brown, not Kai.

I'd already done that one. Whenever you're going and jumping from the college player and then you go back and watch Jalen Green, the level of competition is dramatic. Like it's a big jump playing in those g league games and even more so because the g league was i think only 10 teams this year with everything else that was going on so you had ignite with you know four draft picks maybe and then jared jack was the point guard

and you know jared jack in a g league game still looks really good and i asked jack i was like i really wanted to have him on to kind of hear his story. But then also, you know, he did some Chris Paul, we did some Steph stuff, but I was like, give me a breakdown. I like Jalen Green and Kaminga. I got the sense from the way he described it too, that he felt like there was a pretty big gap. And yet Green and Kaminga going back months have always been top five players where Green is anywhere from like three, four. Kaminga has almost always been fifth. Some people like Jalen Suggs more than they like Jalen Green because they like his personality

and his intensity. But the Jalen Green physical skills and moments, even in a G League game where I'm telling you college to G League, that jump is significant. There's moments where Jalen Green's like, whoa, like what the hell was that? And there's a 10-year vet that he's going up against. So yeah, it's a little loose. The shot selection isn't great. But for some of these really raw kids that haven't had a ton of coaching,

as much as I always want to see somebody show me the basketball skills, like Jalen Green, excuse me, Jalen Suggs had like checks all the boxes on the basketball instinct stuff that you'd want. Green doesn't necessarily as much, but Green's physical gifts in a G League level are still more impressive than anybody else. And it's interesting because Houston at two needs a guy like that. You know, whether if people decide Green is close to Mobley or relatively even whatever, I do feel like Houston would take Green because that's the kind, especially if you're shitty, he can make a ton of mistakes as one of your lead scorers the first year,

and then you get to suck again, which is something else they'd want. I really like Mobley, though. I think if he falls to three, one of the trades I was thinking was, who's the fifth pick? Orlando? Yeah. Orlando has five and eight. Cleveland has three. Cleveland also has Love, who were in the middle of a Kevin Love rejuvenation tour

because he made the Olympic team. I think three and Kevin Love for Simmons is too much, but if they traded three for five and eight, and they gave up something else with the five and eight, Orlando moved up to three. And then they had five and they had eight. And then you trade five in Kevin Love for Simmons?

Or eight in Kevin Love for Simmons? What's the right combo, you think? Five? It's got right combo, you think? Five? It's got to be five, right? I don't know what Kevin Love is right now. So as bad as the Ben Simmons market is, I still have hope that Kevin Love, in a certain situation...

So you're worried that he hasn't played for three years? Yeah, I don't know. That's one of the things. That's a red flag? That he's openly quit on plays during games. I'm complicated that way where I just need to see you play a little bit more. Yeah. I think as bad as the Simmons market feels right now, it's probably better than that

once you actually started talking about potential trades. And look, they're already going to figure this stuff out. I still think clutch is like the biggest part of the whole Ben Simmons thing because I don't know if they're going to care about a timeline. You know, hey, let's we don't want them there. Let's figure this whole stuff out. I still think clutch is like the biggest part of the whole Ben Simmons thing. Because I don't know if they're going to care about a timeline. You know, hey, let's, we don't want him there. Let's figure this whole thing out. Clutch pulls something a couple months into the season. We were like, wait, what?

And then, we both know Daryl. I think Daryl liked watching the end of those games. No, that violated seven Sloan Conference rooms. Wait, before, we're going to go because we have Hawks Bucks coming up. But before we go, speaking of Kevin Love, the Olympic team, Durant, Tatum, Lillard, Booker, and Draymond, I think, are the starters. Middleton, Beal, Holiday, Levine, Bam, and then Love and Jeremy Grant were the last two.

My questions, I can't believe Kevin Love made the team. I thought that was so weird. I really, I was kind of shocked. And I'm not doing what Jalen said about they need a white guy because there's been years where they haven't had white guys. Yeah, I didn't understand that. I like him, but it was a tough argument.

It's a bad take. It's an awful one. Jalen's my brother. That was a bad take. I would make fun of him if he joined the Zoom right now. But he's right to be like, why the fuck is this guy on the team? He shouldn't be. He didn't deserve to be on it. My first question,

so is Aiden eligible to be on this team or not? Because he's born in the Bahamas. I never know how that goes. So maybe he's not eligible? Let me tell you something. You're going to have to tell me ahead of time if we're going to have to talk about...

No, no. Maybe the listeners will tell us. But I'm telling you, I would kind of like DeAndre Ayton on our Olympic team if that was conceivable. Second, did Trae Young turn the team down? What happened with Trae Young? How is he not on this team?

I don't understand. Drew Holliday is the backup point guard, but Drew Holliday's barely a point guard? I want ball handling in the Olympics. That bothered me. I would add Herter over Jeremy Grant. The Jeremy Grant thing, I think he's been working out with KD,

and I think KD called that one in. Don't get mad at me, KD. It's just a theory. Wait a minute. Did you go on the record just now of saying what you think KD may that one in. Don't get mad at me, KD. It's just a theory. Wait a minute. Did you go on the record just now of saying what you think KD may have said? Yeah, no, I think Jeremy Grant was working out in Washington with KD.

No, I don't know. I'm making up. I'm just trying to get KD to tweet at me. I don't understand the Grant thing at all. I don't know where that came from. Well, it sounds like a bunch of guys didn't want to play. And considering everything that's happened

in the last two years, I don't blame anybody for not wanting to do it but the olympic thing is very cyclical we'll put over a lesser team don't do as well then everybody gets fired up we turn to mel gibson the patriot overnight all right so that's usually what will happen we gotta get her i know i do we could have some disappointing um outcomes for everybody else to go but i don't i don't blame any of the major guys not wanting to go ahead and do this. Kevin Lovepart, I didn't quite get, I'll admit. But roster-wise, give me two guys you wish could be added to this.

Herter. I've heard of had 27 in a game seven. I want to see him in an international play now. I just think herder herder's game lends itself to international play better than Jeremy Grant. Like we do this all the time when we're putting together these teams, we did it two years ago at the world championships team. Some guys don't make sense for international basketball.

I want like, I just give me threes and somebody knows how to go to the right spots and that's Herter by the way that guy's barely going to play I thought Dylan Brooks would have been a good one Dylan Brooks could start

an international incident that's why I liked it I got excited my two if I could do Love and Grant over again, I would add Herter and Dylan Brooks, assuming I can't have Aiton or Trae Young. Because Aiton and Trae Young are the two logical, why aren't those guys on the team, guys?

But assuming they're off the board, I would have done Herter and Dylan Brooks. Dylan Brooks would have been amazing in the Olympics. Who would have cared more? They'd be like, oh my God, we're at 48. Dylan Brooks is in a fight with somebody from switzerland he's been picking up full court i love you dylan brooks by the way historian bill simmons he came played for usa dream team 2 in 96 but he did u.s citizenship he did he became a u.s

citizen in 93 so i'm just look i'm just giving you the intro of the story. Duncan, U.S. Virgin Islands. U.S. Virgin Islands, but I think that's different. U.S. Virgin Islands being the main part there. Aiton from the Bahamas has played for his national team, but he has to be a U.S. citizen.

And then FIBA has to make an exception, I believe. So they were saying- What are we doing? What are you doing, Jerry Colangelo? So they were saying maybe in 2024 for

Aiden Can we get on this we need DeAndre Aiden for 2024 By the way we would have needed him this year I think they go crunch time Durant Tatum Lillard Booker And then the fifth guy is either Draymond Or Bam

Crunch time we're playing a good team. That has to be the crunch time, right? I think we should do something with Gobert. We just go, hey, citizen you up. Let's have you play some international games. With small ball? Yeah, and we're just going to... So we go Durant against Gobert.

We go Durant, Tatum, Lillard, Booker, and Brad Beal, and we just shoot Gobert off the court. It has to happen for him at International Ball too. All right. Well, let's get Aiton on the 2024 team. That was it for part one. And we are coming back for part two after Bucks-Hawks. Our producer was the one, the only, the most special man in the universe, Kyle Creighton.

We'll see you for part two after the game. Feel it's within On the wayside I'm a person I never was And I don't have to ever