The Bill Simmons Podcast - Part 1: Booker Torches L.A., the T-Mann Game, Gobert Issues, and a Kemba Trade With Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: June 21, 2021

In Part 1 of the two-part Sunday podcast, The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss the Suns' Game 1 victory over the Clippers, Devin Booker's superior shot-making, speculation on Kawhi Leonard's injury, as well as the Clippers’ Game 6 victory over the Jazz on Friday night (3:30). They also issue some “playoffs apologies” to a few players including Nicolas Batum, Reggie Jackson, Trae Young, and Paul George (24:00), before discussing the Celtics trading Kemba Walker and draft picks to the Thunder for Al Horford, Moses Brown, and a 2025 second-round draft pick (56:30). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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on the Book of Basketball podcast. And I hope you're enjoying the rewatchables because we have another one coming on Monday night. It is the 40th anniversary of one of the great comedies of all time, Stripes. Yeah. 40 years old. We had to go way back, 1981. This is about it. We did Raiders and we did Stripes in the last couple of weeks, but we had to. Those are. 1981. This is about it. We did Raiders and we did stripes in the last couple of weeks, but we had to, those are two icons. So that's coming up on the rewatchables on Monday night. On Tuesday,

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So if you want to get in there live, listen to how we make the sausage. You can do that on Tuesday night looking forward to that looking forward to this it is a two-parter with Rosillo coming up this is part one we are taping this a little after three o'clock Pacific time as the US Open is going on on Sunday and then we're going to come back for part two

much later after Hawks Sixers game seven so that's the schedule part one going up as soon as we can put it up part two going up much later tonight first our friends from Pearl Jam. All right. Happy Father's Day to everybody out there. Happy Father's Day to my father, my stepfather, my father-in-law. Russillo, any Father's Days you want to throw out there?

Yeah, we got my brother and then my dad. So I'm trying to think if I'm leaving out anybody. Oh, Trick Daddy as well. Trick Daddy. There you go. Lots going on. Man, this has been a tumultuous round too. We are still in the throes of it.

Right now we're taping this. It is 3-11. So we still have game seven, Sixers-Hawks coming. We just watched Clippers-Suns game one. I felt a little for the Clippers. They have the single greatest moment in the history of the franchise. On Friday night, it's an emotional rollercoaster ride. It ends.

And 36 hours later, they're playing in Phoenix because the league needed a Sunday afternoon game with the ABC contract. Then they were able to push game seven of Sixers Hawks to Friday night. It was a tough ask for the Clips. There's a lot to get to with that. I want to almost go backwards though,

because we have to cover Clips Jazz game six, but Clips Suns game one, incredible Devin Booker game. Suns took care of business. They win without Chris Paul. And I feel like the Clips left one on the table. I was texting you during the game. I just feel like those Cousins minutes are fool's gold. That is not the team that ended up knocking out the Jazz on Wednesday and Friday, where they win with quickness, small ball, three, speed, kind of a relentlessness. And now you're slowing the game down with Cousins.

I didn't really understand it. And if you just look at the minutes he played, that was the difference in the game. Do you feel like Ty Lue is just like, this is going to be a tough haul for us coming off the greatest win in the history of the franchise. I'll experiment today. I got to steal game two.

That's the one I care about. Well, I don't, I mean, I was with you right history of the franchise. I'll experiment today. I got to steal game two. That's the one I care about. Well, I don't, I mean, I was with you right up until the end. I just don't think these guys piss these games away the way some people seem to think that they do. And we saw in game one against Utah, I believe Ty played 11 guys in the first half. And then after the fact was like, look,

you know, I had to do something to make sure guys coming off that seven game series being down to to Dallas the first time around that that's a tough turnaround. And you're absolutely right with the ABC part of this. Like when I I'm one of the worst things I'm I have in my my scattering report is that I'll look at, you know, what's happening that day. And then you'll send me a note about some of, Hey, what do you think about this? And I'm like, literally I am day to day with my entire life. So when I look at the NBA schedule, I don't look out, I don't map a, Hey, this will be this game. And this is what the schedule says. I just rarely do it. And then when you're looking through everything you have to do in the next couple of days, I'm thinking, Oh wow, that's going to be

really tough. So I think that that's exactly what the approach was. He was going to play different people because of another series they're coming off of that was an emotional thing. And he wanted to try to have guys ready in the second half. I also just think Phoenix is better than them, even without Chris Paul. Interesting. I actually disagree with that. I think the Clippers are better and I think they're going to win the series. But I guess what I'm saying with the throwing away game one, I don't mean throwing it away like we're going to lose. It's more like the odds are against us in this game. What better game to experiment? I want to see what Cousins looks like against this they're just like, hey, these are our seven guys. It'll be eight when Kawhi comes back. And this small ball thing they stumbled into, I was there on Friday night and I can't wait to talk about it. It was one of

the best small ball things I've ever seen in person. It was just them completely outwitting this team that was built a certain way and they turned it against them and the Jazz had no answer. I'm not sure against the Suns, that Aiton thing, it's so funny that Aiton has become more valuable than Gobert. If you're actually trying to win a playoff series,

wouldn't you rather have Aiton right now as raw as he is, as much of an unfinished gem as he is? I would just rather have him in a playoff series than go bear and go bear as defensive player of the year. People, 13 mile NBA people voted for him for MVP,

but he's too slow against his small ball lineups eight. And they were able to manage it with him. He was able to jump out. He was able to make people pay. His hands were always around the basket. I just think he's a better playoff guy. All right. You just said a million things.

Um, I almost was going to bring that up with eight and cause I'd rather have eight than go bear because there's nothing you can't say anything cool about go bear right now there's like a 60-day moratorium on any positive go bear thoughts yeah um but eight and provides you something offensively i actually thought there was a couple possessions late in game one of this game today where i'm like you know what they're small again but tombs playing center like let's see they? They're small again. Batum's playing center. Like, let's see. They had an eight in post, and Batum actually held up well and blocked it,

but I still didn't think you should just give them one shot and abandon it because they had one 30-footer shot clock attempt by Booker, and then there was another Booker runner that was pretty tough, and you go, you know, let's not give up on eight completely, but I still think there's probably some apprehension, even though eight, and I'm with you, has totally turned things around because there was a real point in the middle of the season where it felt like the two guards with Phoenix, Paul and Booker were kind of like, I don't know, you can cut to the hoop, but I don't think I'm

going to throw it to you. So you think Kawhi's coming back though, is the most important thing. I just heard you out of there. Is that info or is that because then you're right. If you think he's coming back, then I can understand your Clippers pick because Paul George is coming back in this series. Who do you think we see first? Excuse me, Paul George. Chris Paul. You think we see Chris Paul before we see Kawhi? Yeah.

Okay. I think Kawhi comes back. From everything I've heard, he hyperextended his knee. And they were calling it a sprain or hyper, whatever you call it. But I just think he's going to be back before the end of the series. Wow. Okay. I do. I'm not reporting that. I just think he's going to be back before the end of the series. Wow. Okay. I'm not reporting that. I just think we're going to see him again.

Okay, because that's crazy because I would say everything I've heard on the other side of it has been incredibly negative. But I think that's what you have to do, right? The Nets did the same thing with Harden and then all of a sudden he could play. And then he said after he had a grade two hamstring pull, but during, in the moment

they were saying it's strained. I, you know, can he play hurt in the last three, four games? I don't know. I guess we'll find out the last three or four years. I know. Well, the irony of it was I went to game four and I thought that was the most athletic and just ridiculous. He's looked in person since, uh, since the 2014 finals for me. He was flying around, and then he got hurt. But do you think they're hiding some torn ACL or something? I don't think there's anything that dramatic. Others have thrown it out there.

I'm not saying that I know anything because Kawhi is Oz, man. With him, it's even another layer that you're just never going to figure out. I don't know. I'm just telling you I've heard more negative stuff. You seem to be more positive on it. I have no idea who's right or wrong here, but if you're telling me Kawhi is coming back, then I think it changes little things. I also think on Kawhi's athleticism, it's unique in that it's actually more explosive than Pierce. I'm not trying to do a Celtics thing here. Don't worry, folks. But Pierce was always more athletic than you realize,

but he just played the game a certain way. I think that athleticism has kind of been there with Kawhi where he'll have these moments. I mean, the dunk that he had last week was one of the most impressive dunks you're going to see in a playoff game. So I think he's a burst guy with his athleticism more so than like a Westbrook who from the minute he's on the floor throughout the entire game, he's just doing things athletically that you're not used to seeing. Here's what I saw in game four from him before he got hurt.

I always felt like he, he was picking his spots for a couple of years there, right? He'd pick a spots, pick a spots, pick a spots. I didn't feel like there's any spot picking before he got hurt in that game. I just feel like he was like, all right, this is the gear I'm in and this is how I'm going. And, you know, it goes back to like what a bonkers playoffs this has been, which I think we're going to dive into more again too.

The reason I don't think he's done is just reading between the lines with all the quotes from the Clippers. I haven't seen a lot of, well, you know, if Kawhi doesn't come back, then we have to think blah, blah, blah. We haven't seen that. Now, I just find it hard to believe that all of these dudes, a lot of whom have been thrown together the last year, just have this code of omerto where they're just not going to talk about Kawhi's season-ending injury. Like, I don't even know what competitive advantage you get out of that.

And you might be right, but we've also seen teams obsess and waste many man hours on just delaying the inevitable. The 09 Celtics being a great example. Yeah, but people, I mean, football coaches are brutal with it, where it's just like, I can't possibly tell you that this guy's done for a season on Tuesday. I have to wait until Thursday. That changes everything. And you're just like, all right, whatever. But I think that's just the way business is done.

So maybe because they're doing a lot of Kawhi's been really engaged. I mean, that's the constant story that I've heard. How much he's helped, how often he's calling. Now he's like the most talkative cat of all time, which is kind of a tougher sell. So when I kept hearing it over and over again, I'm like, what? Kawhi's talking to everybody all the time now? Are you guys trying to like trick us? He wasn't there for game six. I don't think I didn't see him. We were looking, my son and I were there. We were looking on the bench for him. We didn't see him. So that would speak to maybe he is more hurt, but I, I just, I feel like they would have said something.

I don't think it benefits a team to hide an injury where the guy's just not coming back. So I think I would agree, but I think it's just, you know, you're right. Maybe he's coming back. I honestly,

I have, I have no idea. So we'll find out. I don't feel good one way or the other. Quick stuff on the Clippers sons, sons game. Booker is a lead guy. A year ago, do you think he could have played

the game we saw today? He was spectacular today. 39, 12, and 13, something like that. 16 straight points when they really needed them. And just exemplary shot making. Really some of the best shot making. Other than maybe Durant. When he's really feeling it,

the way he can get to different spots and hit all kinds of shots, he might have the most fascinating array of shots of anyone other than Durant right now. But do you think he could have done that a year ago? I think the talent's always been there, but first of all, I'm going to put him like a hard second, maybe even third behind Durant. I would include Steph in the array of shot making that is incredible. So, yeah, that's fair. I mean, I was thinking fair. Well, I think with Steph, it's drives and threes.

I think with Booker, I feel like any spot on the court from 30 feet in, you could just pick a spot and he could probably create a shot for that spot. Whereas Durant's the only other guy I feel that way about. He's got bank shots. He's got threes. He's got drives with both hands. He's got pull-ups. He's got floaters. I don't, I think Curry has all of those things. Yeah. What, what do you, what doesn't he have? He can, that's why Curry's the best shooter is that he's comfortable. Like Curry's a great shooter, the greatest shooter we've ever seen because the muscle calibration, like his understanding that, okay, if my feet are a little forward,

you know, maybe I need a little bit more out of my hands or a little more arms. If my legs are dead, then I'm going to calibrate. But I think we're arguing two different things though. No, but I'm leading up to, I've seen him do stuff from all over the floor where it's all of him

understanding like the science of the release from wherever he is. So I just wouldn't put Booker ahead of him. All right. I don't know. Okay. So he's behind Katie, but let's not turn it into negative Booker thing here. No positive Booker thing.

Cause the one Booker shot that he has that I'm not positive Curry has at the same level is that little like 15 to 17 drag the big guy out where there's like some shades of Kobe and there's some shades of Chris Paul in it. And he could just get it with the release over and over and over again from the right spot. What's weird about his game at this point in his career is he still doesn't shoot like a crazy amount of threes. Like he took seven a day, which is a lot for him, but he took seven. Yeah.

He took seven a game a couple of years ago. He's actually declined a bit from that. But I mean, the other reason why I'm going to stop you from putting them ahead of Curry's 35% from three for his career. So, you know, yeah. But if you're saying who's a better pure shooter,

the answer is Curry. If you're saying, I can't even believe we're doing this right now. I'm asking, I'm asking who has more shots in their shot bag. I'm still saying Curry. All right. We'll disagree.

Booker is 15 for 29, seven free throws, 11 assists, and they were good assists. Great, yeah. They were like, I'm creating shots for you assists. They weren't like, I drew three guys over to me, and then somebody was was wide open and I threw it to him and he made a 25 footer. They were, these were like real shots. He was really good. Aiton was 10 for 14. And I think as weird as this sounds, I think Aiton is actually the key to this series for them.

He was able to play 37 minutes. Um, he was able to defend, he was able to get out, he was around the rim. And I actually think he could have better games of this. He was able to get out. He was around the rim. And I actually think he could have better games than this. He was 29. I could see him having like a 2020 game at some point in this series. And his maturation is the biggest difference for me between this team three months ago and now.

Yeah, but when you asked the original question, which I think is the best point, like, all right, would Booker have been able to do this before? I'd like to think that Chris Paul and Mark Jackson talked about him like he was dropped from the heavens into the basketball world. But I do think there's some truth

of like the day-to-day grind of a regular season being a really good team getting through those first two playoff series and having Chris Paul around where it kind of gets you probably thinking about the game a little bit differently.

So I don't know, you know, if the Suns were in the playoffs without Chris Paul, say, say, you know, Aiton improves, Booker improves. There's a different piece with the cap room and all that kind of thing. You know, say they're in the playoffs. We see this from Booker, you know, I don't, I don't know, but here's what I would say

about today. That was really great. Especially when Cameron Payne picked up that fifth foul and he was going to be playing point guard. And I love the Cameron Payne reclamation story. You know, I was wrong about him coming out. I liked him. The guy looked like he wasn't even going to play in the league again. But I think we'd all agree that Cameron Payne plays an emotional level. It's almost like point guard Cousins at times. Look, it's not even close to Cousins. But I think full-time Cameron Payne can be a little scary.

So when Booker has to run all of that offense there for that really important stretch, like the game stretch, Booker's brought the ball up a lot and initiated the offense throughout all the different versions of the Phoenix Suns roster throughout his entire career. So he's played a lot of point guard, and I think all of those things led to his comfort level. And you're right, the decision-making, getting doubled, reading the double, getting it to the outlet,

or in some of the cases, I didn't love the way the Clippers defended some of the high-screen stuff. I didn't even love all the times Phoenix, like he'd have Rondo on him. I saw twice in possessions where they got Rondo off of him on purpose. And I'm like, wouldn't you still want Rondo? But when he had to make a pass, he was great on those reads. And I think it's all those years playing the position, even though he's more of a two. Imagine being the Clippers.

You go from Donovan Mitchell last round to Booker. These kind of zero guards where they're not a one, they're not a two. They can bounce back and forth. They can initiate offense. They can also play off the ball. And in this case, he was initiating a lot of this stuff.

And from a three-point standpoint, they made 41%, which is usually around where they are. I didn't feel like they played really that special today except for him. And it was a good one for them to take care of because, again, we don't know when Chris comes back. Do you think he's back for game two? Who knows?

But if you're the Clips, I think you're fine. You're like, look, we just had this amazing win on Friday night. We're fine. We were supposed to lose this game. Game two is the one we're going to get. We tried some stuff out. And I still feel like they're small ball stuff. Can you explain the Reggie Jackson thing to me? Because KOC said something we were doing, we were doing a green room the other day and KOC looked up on second spectrum, who is the best ISO guy with a hundred plus possessions. And Reggie Jackson was number one over everybody else in the league, including

like Kevin Durant and people like that. And I test backs it up. He's kind of unstoppable when they throw in the ball against Utah. He was unstoppable. He was either shooting threes. He was taking the basket. He was going right at go bear. And this is somebody I've just never liked there at any point in his career.

And now I fucking love watching them and I hope the Celtics sign them. I don't get it. There's a lot of this though, in league especially with the offensive explosion where you can have guys put together stuff but there's a real skill of getting by guys i too early on with reggie jackson um and it wasn't just 75 million and everybody's saying no it's a good deal because the cap goes up and you're like that doesn't seem good that seems high i think i remember even john wall at one point being like well reggie jackson's gonna make more than me for like one year like what's going on here again and when reggie jackson was running your offense and he thought he was the guy as a younger player it was a problem okay it was a real problem so that would be a turnoff but then as what a minimum

addition last year and somebody you keep around because you like his driving and you like his shooting and you like him as a third, maybe even fourth guard at a low number, then his entire basketball identity has changed, which means our evaluation of him has changed. And it's happened to superstars. It's happened to role players. So anybody that was selling Reggie Jackson stock is the number one option closing games for Detroit. When you'd watch it, you'd see some numbers, but I didn't love it. I don't know that Detroit loved it. I mean, he ended up being a buyout. And now this is a completely different role. So I don't know that people that were shorting Reggie Jackson were wrong. But if you bought some stock in him at a real low price because you liked him in this role, then congrats to you. But he's been two different players, and that's seen versions of him work in the playoffs, right? Houston was able to win a title with two titles with Hakeem, where they had this Kenny Smith, Vernon Maxwell, Sam Cassell, like all these guys, they weren't like all, you know, superstar guards, but they could get hot at the right times. They could

catch fire. They carried themselves with crazy confidence. The guy I watched Friday night, you would have thought if you'd only watched one game all year, you would have assumed he was one of the best 10 guys in the league because it wasn't just the shots he was making, but the way he was behaving, he was behaving like, you know, he had won six titles and you look at like, he's been on the Clippers for two years. Um, cause they signed him late last year. During the season this year, he was 10.7 points a game in 23 minutes. In the playoffs last year,

he played 12 games in the playoffs. He averaged five a game. This year, he's played 13, now 14 counting tonight, and he's averaging 18 a game, and he's basically a 50-40-90 guy. And every time they need to get bailed out with 10 seconds to go on the shot clock, it feels like he can get a good shot.

So I just think it's, I was totally in on him in OKC. I was totally out on him in Detroit. And now I think I'm back. And maybe this is who he is. Maybe some guys are just late bloomers. I don't know. But when they have him and Mann and Paul George

and either Morris or Beverly, depending on what the situation is, and then Batum as like their small ball center, it's a really hard lineup to defend, which leads me... Oh, you know what? Let's take a break because I want to do some 2021 playoff apologies.

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Sign up now. Just search Movember. All right, coming back. We're talking about Reggie Jackson. I'm not going to apologize to Reggie Jackson. I'm going to apologize for thinking that he couldn't have a place on a playoff team. I was proven incorrect.

Nick Batum, I actually feel like I have to offer an apology to because I've really enjoyed watching him in the playoffs, especially in person. He's just like incredible glue guy. He's in shape. He really gives a shit. He can guard five positions,

not afraid to shoot all the misconceptions or maybe they were right. Conceptions I had about him on different teams. I watched him where it's like, that guy's going to disappear. Don't trust that guy. Um, that guy doesn't give a shit. I don't know. Maybe you get older in life and you can change the narrative of yourself. But, um, to me, he's like a real weapon for them now. And his ability to be a small ball center who can also, doesn't really need the ball, but can hit a three if you actually give him the ball. Like, it's just kind of shocking to me. Anyone in the league could have had this guy.

Yeah, look, I think I already did apologize about Batum because I really felt like that first week of games, watching him two or three times, I was just like, oh my God, like he's catching the ball and giving it to somebody else immediately being like I can't believe I'm running around out here with everybody so I thought that first week we were pretty harsh on him because that's what it looked like and you know coming out of the Charlotte deal you know was it wrong to say this guy doesn't care was it wrong to say that he was out of shape was it wrong to say that he kind of quit? Again, no, no. I mean, some of these are just whiffs on players

where you have to admit you were wrong, but sometimes the player, but as far as like that first week, we were way too harsh on Batum the first week. And I think we've already addressed that part of it. So yeah, he's a big part of what they're doing, but I'd love to see Aiton get a couple more chances against him offensively and see what happens

if it's a close game and the Clippers have gone small because Aiton's not coming off the floor. I like when they have Aiton on the left block and they just kind of throw him the entry pass so he can immediately wheel around and do the McHale jump hook. It's kind of unstoppable. Just, you know, when he followed the kind of transition play there and he had a dunk, like that's, it's not just, hey, let's post up Aiton and run a 1980s, 1990s offense. It's make them pay for being that small when it comes to rebounding. And that's where, that's where I think the Aiton part, as you pointed out earlier, is going to be a big part of the series.

Next apology for me, Paul George kind of won me over the last few games. I got to say, um, the, the complete two-way offensive game manager type of thing from the forward position that he put on in game five and game six and even a little today. He wasn't as good today, but he was still kind of doing it. But there was like a little LeBron KD pieces of both of those guys, especially in game six, where I think he finished with something like 29-8-8, something like that. His decisions were great. His demeanor was great.

Every time he stepped up was at a point of the game in game six, where they just really needed their star to make a play. And he would, um, there was a coolness about him. It was all the stuff that, you know, we saw during the regular season during the year when he finished third. We knew we had it in him. There's been moments over the years, but it was like all the pieces of him were on display, which is why he's been such a polarizing guy over the years

because we always kind of felt this was in there, you know? And then you watch him, those last two Utah games. It's like, this is why we've spent so much time talking about Paul George. We felt like this was there. And I don't know, this is, will this be the pivotal breakthrough when we're assessing Paul, when he makes the hall of fame or like, oh yeah, he was a really good player. And then the 21 playoffs, he went to another level or is this just a two week thing? And a year from now, we're going to be complaining about him. I don't know, but, uh, I did not know he had it in him. I expected him to not be able to carry the Clippers in game six and he did. So I'm offering

a tacit, uh, semi apology. I will apologize to Paul George. If he apologizes to me for last year's game seven against Denver. Fair. Or his game six in 2018 against Utah. I don't I don't really know what's going on in the water here. But, you know, Paul George feels like he has no choice. And maybe that's what he always needed. You know, maybe he's better not on a super team. Cornered Paul George.

Push him in a corner. Exactly. So now that he has no choice, he's been a completely different player because he also had games at the beginning of the Utah series. All right. That first game against Utah. A couple games beginning of the Dallas series. You're like, are you seriously going to do this again? You're seriously going to do this again?

People are calling him Palmdale Jeff Green. All right. Which I thought was insulting to Jeff Green, all right, which I thought was insulting to Jeff Green. So if the rule is, if the rule is guy who we've talked up, like we talked him up massive with the Pacers, all right, we talked him up all the way to like, how many players after LeBron do you take before you get to Paul George, that kind of stuff. Going to be an MVP, finishes third MVP in one of the years at OKC, all Alright? So everybody was pretty nice to Paul George for a long

time, despite saying a bunch of stuff too along the way that didn't make any sense. And now that he had had all these flame-out playoff games, which he went over last year and felt very accurate. With excuses too. The excuses were made more intolerable. So,

I'm pumped to see Paul George look like Paul George again, but I'm not going to go back and apologize for telling people what we saw. I got to say, this has been a traumatic playoffs for me in term from a take standpoint, we're just guys I'd either given up on or just things that I just assumed about certain players. Like that. And we don't need to.

Trae Young is the next apology, but I feel like we've already done it on both of our pods. We don't need to do it again. I'll do it again. I just felt like I just thought he was the ultimate good stats, bad team guy. Did what was best for him. Did not understand anything about the position. It was going to be literally years and years before he figured out how to play that position successfully.

And within three months, he became Steve Nash 2.0. And he's now one of my favorite players to watch. He's a tough motherfucker. And he's, I think, I said this the other day in the pod, he's like the heir to Iverson, Isaiah Thomas, and like these little tough guys that I fucking loved.

And he carries himself the same way. I did not expect it. And I think he's been enthralling to watch. I'm excited to watch him in game seven. They're seven-point underdogs. Game has not started yet. They should probably lose. Bogdanovich is hurt. Which no one's talking about, by the way.

Losing the Bogdanovich piece is tough. Then they lost Hunter. And all signs are for them to lose by 20. But I'm not betting against that kid. I'm not saying they're going to win, but I just, you can't feel safe in that game because that dude could put up 40 and 15

and just shoot the lights out. And if it's a close game in the fourth quarter, he's not going to be scared. He'll be the least scared guy on the court. All right. You're taking my shit here because I already did all this on Thursday. I know. We agree. That's all right you're taking my you're taking my shit here because i already did all this on third i know that's all right we agree okay but i again just like paul

george the timeline for this wasn't inaccurate it was kind of gross for a long time they had almost the worst record in the league last year i think it was the third worst and then everything changed when mcdonough came back mcmillan was better mcmillan even talked about trey young understanding how to play based on the quarter, not just based on what he wanted to do. We had complaints at points during this season and previous season where guys were watching film, being tired of how

because that stuff was real. It was all happening. I'm sorry, Atlanta people. But having said all those things and we picked them both or no, you switched it to New York. Never mind. Not trying to beat up on you there. I didn't know. I said seven game series and I don't even remember who I, you switched it to New York. Never mind. Not trying to beat up on you there. I didn't think it was close. No, I said seven-game series, and I don't even remember who I ended up picking. You bet New York, I think.

No, no, I didn't. I did not. You didn't? No. I'm pretty sure you picked New York as a Randall. I think you remember you saying you got... Stayed away. I think I was like,

if I had to bet this, I would do New York at seven, but I stayed away. I was too confused by that series, and we should have stuck to our guns. Anyway, even to the New York series, because I thought that was a horrible matchup for the Knicks because Trey's just so good against those guards

and the fact that they never really attacked him defensively. And then we see game one against Philly. And I was like, okay, well, they let Danny Green defend him the whole time. So that seems stupid. And then in game two, I'll admit, I was like, okay, this is what happens. This is why teams have rules about small point guards in the playoffs. And it's like, as great as the guy can be at that position,

there's some real limitations when you have this. And it hasn't mattered because when I watched 10 players running around in the Philly Atlanta series, there's one guy that's tougher than everybody else, mentally tougher as well. And it's Trey young. So, um, the fouls don't make me vomit three times a game, but as far as his approach and, and being a foxhole guy now that ascension is way quicker than I ever would have thought it would have been, especially if you'd asked me this back in February. So yeah,

I'll apologize for all that. I also think it's more, way more realistic now than it's ever been that you could build a championship contender around a little guy because like, and there's a really good book called The Franchise written about the late 80s Pistons that Cameron Stoth wrote that's about this conundrum the GM of the Pistons at the time, Jack McCluskey, had about, I have this guy who's Isaiah Thomas, who's one of the best players in the league. How do I build a championship team around this guy

when in the history of the league, these guys don't win titles? You always have to have a big guy. I have to figure out how do I do this? And since then we haven't seen it. The closest was Curry, the, the warrior, the 15 words being built around Curry. He's not necessarily a small guy. He's six, three, you know, he's not, he's not like a little guy like Chris Paul was, or Isaiah or people like that. I think with the Trey thing, what's changed about basketball as we head into this decade is that it is realistic to build around Dame, Trey, these kind of offense first little guys.

You can actually win the title with them now because of the three and just how much the game has changed. So that leads me to my next apology. I said probably four months ago that I thought the Luka trade was a generationally terrible trade and really horrible

and would go down as an all-timer. I don't think you can say that anymore because this trade looks really good. I still think it's a bad trade. They gave up the best 22-year-old player of all time. They could have just taken him. It will always be bad that they didn't do that, but how it turned out was about as well as it's going to turn out.

And then with Phoenix, the other piece of this where Phoenix takes eight and one over Luca, which I, even at the time I was like, it's semi-defensible. I get it. I still would never pass up Luca in a million years. That ain't thing has also worked out really well. He's a really nice fit with Booker. So you look back at that draft and we're just not going to have that Sam Bowie Darko Milicic kind of moment in that draft other than the Marvin Bagley. Well, you still like

Bagley though too. So that all works out. No, I did not like, never liked Bagley too. Yeah, but you still like him. I like him as like a reclamation project, but I don't think he's Darko or Bowie. Do you? He's been hurt. He's had bad luck.

He's getting close. He's getting close. I mean, the Darko. Darko was done. Disastrous because it was the top end of that draft is littered with hall of famers. It's that's rough.

Uh, next apology. And this leads us to clips jazz game six, which we have to spend five minutes on. Clippers crowds, who I've made fun of forever. Incredible crowd on Friday night. And I was trying to think about it. My son, I took my son to Game 4 and Game 6.

My son had, I think, the single best time he's ever had at a sporting event in Game 6. It was this joyous, euphoric, crazy, raucous atmosphere that resembled no Clipper game I've ever been to. And I was trying to figure out after maybe the pandemic like washed away all the crowd habits. And now people are so happy to be back. My people. Yeah. So people are just so happy to be out and about with people that it's just like everyone's starting from scratch. That Clippers crowd affected that game. It was the, it was the

bizarre version of the Josh Smith game in 2015 when Houston Harden leaves, he's got a towel over his head. He's quit in the series and Josh Smith and Corey Brewer bring the Clippers back and they choke. The crowd doesn't know what to do. And this was the opposite. The crowd never gave up. It was 75-50. Nobody was like, we're going to lose. They were kind of waiting for some sort of comeback. It starts happening and they're on their feet the whole second half. I was really proud of them. I got to say. I have nothing to add to that. I mean, but you're kind of making fun of your own here. This is almost one of those deals where you could say like, well, I can make that joke

because you've been a Clippers guy for such a long time. Clippers guy is strong. Clippers season ticket holder. How many years have you had season tickets? Clippers empathizer. 2004. So 17 seasons you've had Clippers season tickets? This is my 17th season with Clippers tickets.

That's a big deal. Yeah. How many people do you think have had them longer than you? Like 12 guys? A lot. I'm in a whole section of people who have had them since like 84, 85. So there's a lot of them.

There's a couple generation things. But it's a crowd that expects the worst at all times. So you almost can't overstate how important that game was for the history of the franchise. They've never made round three. They've never had a game like that.

It wasn't just like the greatest moment in the history of the franchise. It's by far the greatest moment. Like the runner-up choice is probably Chris Paul beating the Spurs in round one with that shot. Remember that series in 2015? Are you kidding me?

It's one of my favorite playoff series of all time. That was the previous greatest moment in the history of the Clippers franchise. Probably number three was when they beat Denver in 06 to advance to round two with a team that had a chance to win the title. No, I would say game seven against the

Warriors before the Warriors got rolling when Bogut was hurt. Oh, when they beat them? Yeah. Yeah, maybe. All right, that's fair. That's three and then... Wait, wait, so it was yours... Denver was the first round, right? Right, but just them making the second round

was a huge deal. I'm not even sure they'd made a second round before. So, and that team... You might be right. That 06 team, I still feel like I had a chance to win the title that year. And there's a world where you play that season I had a chance to win the title that year. And there's,

there's a world where you play that season 20 times and they might win two of the titles. Fourth has to be Darius Miles and Q Rich. Yeah, but like what game? What game?

No, just that they existed. It was cool for like a couple of weeks and people were playing with them on 2K. Right. Yeah, that's fair. It was awesome.

I was really happy for everybody. And, uh, And the jazz piece of this, my God, blowing a 25 point lead to a team, missing their best player, and then not adjusting at all to anything for an hour, as even people in the crowd are looking at each other going, how are they not taking out Gobert? What is this guy seeing? And I don't know what the announcers were saying,

but it was just in person. It was even my son who knows nothing was like, why don't they take out Gobert? Like he's just, everybody just says, why don't, but why don't, what does he do? Why don't, why don't they just take them out and put in somebody else? I'm like, I don't know. This is my son who knows nothing. It was just an all time, uh, choke job by them all time. 81 points in the second half of game six 81 points and i remember you know

watching game five thinking okay once everybody cools off like what is this going to look like the worst part about game six and we can you know explore the adjustments that may or may not even exist here because i'm not a huge every coach sucks where's the adjustment but they had already seen this in game five they They'd already seen, hey, we're going small, we're sticking Rudy's guy in the far corner, and then we're going to run the action away from the corner so Rudy has to help on the other side on drives and then somehow stay honest.

So there is a bigger Rudy Gobert conversation we can have where it's kind of like, can anybody argue him next year? Like, what are the Rudy Gobert arguments going to be for the people that are told they're wrong about how great he is? Because I understand what the stats accumulate over the course of a season. I understand the screen setting. I understand how his screens and his roles kind of pull everybody in and affect how people play you defensively. But the fact is, it's not that he was asked to, I think for the Gobert criticism, that's unfair. What you're asking him to do as a seven footer is pretty much impossible. Help on drives on the opposite side,

but also stay honest enough that you can go out and contest threes. And then the guys that were in the corner were getting open looks, but they all started reasoning like this guy's running at me so hard. I can actually just get them up in the air and then go at him. Like, he's in an impossible spot. So that part, I actually felt bad for Gobert. But the biggest issue of it all is he gives you nothing offensively when the other team goes small. And that's why the Aiton question, I think, is a good one. And I think Aiton's the right answer because Gobert's supposed to make them pay a little bit and his own teammates won't give him the basketball because they've seen it for years and it doesn't work. So I don't know if it's going to favors because that didn't work.

It was it was sharks in the water when he's protecting the rim. I mean, are you going to get really weird here and go Ingalls, Bogdanovich, Clarkson, Conley, Mitchell, and then just go as small as you can? But the fact that nothing was ever attempted is, I think, the issue there and where the criticism's fair. Regular season Rudy? That's what your nickname would be for him? It's great in the regular season,

but we've seen it now in the playoffs. It doesn't work. We've talked about this now for years. We don't have to apologize for this one. No, because what would Chris Paul be if utah got through this series every big possession in the fourth quarter he'd be looking at rudy gobert saying come on out here let's go we saw it with golden state and that's why we're like some of these big centers as great as they are over the course of regular season and you'd need gobert against the lakers you'd want gobert against the

nuggets you know there are some some bigger teams, but the best perimeter players are going to find a way to abuse you. And this wasn't even him having to defend the screen against the primary ball handler. He's defending the fifth option, but he's asked to cover so much space. That's the part where I have a little sympathy for him. But what I will not do next year is be told that he's actually incredibly special when i think sometimes we can make it too complicated you know it's like okay i know what all the numbers say i know the numbers are off the charts this is amazing the gap between him and the next guy but what about the basketball shit like what about the stuff where it's like hey if you're one of the best basketball players in the league then let's see that stuff be better

and he just doesn't have any offense to make the defensive part of it from what we saw in five and six make up for it. I would have played O'Neal, Bogdanovich, Ingles, Mitchell, and Clarkson because you had to match the offense. You weren't going to get stops. The lineup you had out there not only couldn't stop the Clippers, as we saw by the 81 points, and they go into it and they're basically like, look, if Terrence Mann can make some threes, God bless him. If Batum can make some threes, God bless him. That was their strategy. Well, guess what? All of those guys were unconscious. Fucking Pat Bev made three threes. Once it was raining in like that and what's the energy of the crowd got

like what it was, you have to switch plans. And Beverly was about to have sex with somebody courtside. Oh my, he was, he was, I thought Beverly was done. I'm not going to apologize to him, but to me, he was like a guy on his way out of the league and he was like rejuvenated. It was, I'm telling you, there was an energy in that place that you could feel was tangible. And I just would have gone small. I would not have gone down in flames. Gobert played all 24 minutes. The other one who didn't have it was Connelly. That was obvious. And I think they were trying to be loyal to him, but he wasn't healthy. And, um, I think they were trying to take some pressure off Mitchell,

but man, if you, I guarantee if Snyder watches that second half at some point this summer, he's going to have to have like seven drinks. I don't know if he drinks. But I just think there were options. I don't think they had many options. I'm not saying you're wrong for trying anything different. I have to match their small ball. Their small ball is murdering me.

I at least have to match it and make them work on defense. The other thing we have to talk about is the Terrence man piece because, um, I was, when I go to games, I always, I always screenshot the end of the first half box score and then look at, so I can do it for the second half and kind of see how it changed.

So I always used to love when I went to Celtic games, Neil garden, they used to hand out the end of the half box scores. You get that in the media. Sometimes you can study them. So I did that with this. You look at the second half where Mann at 25 in the second half and Reggie Jackson at 24.

I've never been to a game that had more heat checks because Mitchell had a heat check. Clarkson had 21 in eight minutes in the first half. Mann and Reggie Jackson both had a heat check. Then Beverly had like a mini heat check where he made all these threes in a row. And it was, it was one of the weirdest games I've ever been to. And you know, is why the NBA is so random now. And I don't, I'm not alive better, but if you're alive better and the team that's down by 20 plus can make threes. I think you have to look at the line because we saw it with the Hawks

in that Sixers game the other night too. You just never know. It takes two guys to get hot and all of a sudden a 22 point game is a nine point game. But the Terrence Mann thing, he's somebody you and I both liked. I remember we did a pod at some point

earlier in the playoffs where we were like, what are they doing? Why isn't he playing? This is like their best energy guy. I never thought he would have offense like that. And now he seems like a legit keeper. He was the 49th pick,

you know, and was bouncing around. He was, you know, he was the best player in the history of New Hampshire. You know, I was always wondering who the best player in the history of New Hampshire. I think he was,

I think it's Terrence Mann or he was Mr. New Hampshire for a year. And then it got hurt with Florida State. He had that classic always had talent, was in some weird situations, had an untimely injury before a March Madness. That would have been good for him.

I just liked that guy. The thing that jumped out at me being there was just like the guys on the court really gave a shit and were not afraid. Sometimes in the playoffs, you just need to find five of those guys. Utah never found their five. But if you're a Utah fan, what's your takeaway? Are you running this back?

You'd be like, cool. Just some bad luck. Let's do it again. What do you do? Conley's a free agent. I don't know what to do there. I'd be really scared about what I'd give Conley. But then again, don't know what to do there I mean I'd be really scared About what I'd give Conley

But then again You worry about the asset slot So it's like Okay so what's Conley Going to get on the market Maybe you know Obviously he'd rather Have everybody healthy

And I think for any Utah fan That's going like Hey you know Conley wasn't hurt Kawhi went out For the rest of the series And you lost both games That's inexcusable I mean honestly

Which was worse to you Game five or game six What's a worse loss? Because game five, you're home. You should never lose that game in a million years. Game six is still worse because. Giving up 81 and a half? Yeah, I think that's high.

I think that's a lot of points there. And Mitchell, who I love, all right? I love Donovan Mitchell, but you can see, there was actually, I think, a nice difference here because it's going to end up being like, it's absurd for you to think you'd like Mitchell more than Booker because now Booker's still playing and he had this kind of game one but Booker dealt with the double teams better than Mitchell does now Mitchell can split them with more dynamic athleticism I think there's

more of a when Mitchell's 100% healthy which you, you know, I don't think he was in the series. But again, you can't really use it as an excuse when Kawhi's gone. But Mitchell, Mitchell, you could see like, ah, this thing's falling apart. Here comes a double. Screw it. Pulling up. You know, there's a little bit of that. We've always we've always, you know, flirted with the little of the Westbrook in them. Little here of Bali.

Yeah. And, you know, booker was very very composed for the most part except for maybe a couple shots here or there so you know the rudy thing when you looked at the salary you're like all right i guess you just have to go ahead and pay him and i know people hate hearing that but that's kind of the reality of the gm gig for it um i don't even know what the market would be for gobert you trade him the magic Magic and then tell Mitchell you're going to build around him. And then what if you're worse and you're flirting with seeds six through 10? And then Mitchell starts going, hey, this isn't working out.

I mean, that's the biggest fear if you're running Utah, all of that stuff. So I wish I had a better answer for you, but I don't because I think it's really hard. What would you do? I think sometimes you have your window. You know, you look at, there's that 2015 season. Remember when the Hawks went 16-22? Yeah.

And it's LeBron's first year in Cleveland and the first half of that Cleveland season, LeBron started to look old and we're like, what's going on with LeBron? Then he went away for two weeks. He came back, he was fine. You had the Spurs-Clippers thing where all of a sudden the Clippers just die started to look old and we're like, what's going on with Brown? Then he went away for two weeks. He came back. He was fine. Um, you had, you had the Spurs Clippers thing where all of a sudden the Clippers just die in that Houston series. And you have, um,

the Warriors who people think, oh, they're really good, but they can't actually win the title. Can they? And it's just the league seemed wide open and the Hawks are sitting there and they have Al Horford and Joe Johnson. Um, remember people wanted them to have five all-stars because they had such a there and they have Al Horford and Joe Johnson. Um, Corver. Remember, remember people wanted them to have five all-stars Millsap. That's such a good record.

Yeah. Corver. And it's just like, Oh, maybe it's going to be the Hawks. And then they just fucking got annihilated against Cleveland. And then you go, well,

it's not only is it not going to be the Hawks, it's probably never going to be the Hawks. And that's how I feel about this Utah team. I just, if they couldn't do it this year with all the things in their favor, where you have home court throughout the playoffs, you're playing the Clippers and the best guy in the Clippers gets hurt.

It's a tough one. I will, the only thing I can say about them, if you're trying to talk yourselves into running it back, is that Mitchell was not healthy. And I, as I said, I went to those last two Clipper games and watching on TV versus in person, you know, this, you pick up so much shit in person. And especially like, if you're watching guys during dead balls, coming out of timeouts, coming out of huddles when they know they're not on camera or they know people aren't

looking at him, just kind of the way they handle themselves. And he just looked hurt to me. Like he was always like looking down at his legs and looking down at his feet and kind of like pushing off things. And just, I think he was actually hurt more than they were letting on. I think he's just really tough. And his brother's like that too. I mean, his brother is an equal tough guy maniac. So I just think he was playing through a lot of pain. And normally you go small ball and I think he's just attacking and getting in the rim. And I don't feel like, I feel like he had to pick his spots because he wasn't healthy. So that would be my one thing I would say if I like to, for the run it back for them. Okay.

But isn't this the most likely scenario? You give it a few weeks, you assess your team and you go okay if we come back next year we have what we have a chance to still be a really high seed have an exciting year if something breaks our way injury wise which it kind of did in the second round when Kawhi goes out you know maybe we have a chance here I mean there are I know that's not what everybody wants and it's actually kind of like annoying every time a team loses in the playoffs, especially if it's sort of a bad ending. It's like, all right, well, you know, this team can't win. So now what? I don't think organizations look at themselves the way we do from the outside and that if they meet and they talk it all over

and go, Hey, what are all of our options? And you're like, you know, not that many of the options are that great. So if we stand Pat, so what are we like a 50 plus win team 55 win team and and we'll see what happens and if we get bounced the second round we could bounce the second round but like to get real dramatic and start really changing things around but you know the gobert thing i think is it continues to be a real problem in the playoffs and credit to ty Lue for trying a bunch of different things in both series we're going to see it again against Phoenix and for Paul George having some of those moments although I was looking at it again he didn't score in the fourth quarter today he had the technical foul that was the only point he dead legs it looked like um I also think some of those

guys they were face guarding him a little bit I thought Jay Crowder picked him up I think Bridges had him late in some of those possessions but I also felt like there was a couple of possessions where they didn't quite look at him. But Lou, who down 30 to 11 in game three in the Dallas series in the first quarter, and it starts swirling around being like, why is this guy good again? And we've seen now. So I think Lou deserves a ton of credit or I guess a reevaluation of what we thought of him as a coach because I think there were real questions. And that's how crazy all this stuff was. Like, think about it, Bill.

They're down 2-0 to Utah. Look, they're down 2-0 to Dallas. Hey, Ballmer's going to blow it all up. What can you get for Paul George? Could Kawhi bounce? You know, he's not going to be happy. Is Ty Lou actually that good? Okay, never mind look what

happened look what kawaii did in game six look at his fourth quarter numbers throughout the season kawaii leave the knicks fans thought they're getting kawaii for like 48 hours exactly the same exact thing happens like a week and a half later and it's like man apology like what can you get for this guy like kawaii is not going to want to sign up for this so things can change that's my utah lesson using the Clippers as an example is that things can change very quickly, even though I know I wouldn't be selling you on Utah going in with the same group because of the playoff limitation. I'm glad you brought up Ty Lue. I thought he was awesome in that Utah series. The Dallas series, I just think they had a better team and eventually

they just got their shit together and he figured out which guys to play. And, but we going into the playoffs, we were like, do the Clippers know who their best guys are? It doesn't seem like they know. And they kind of figured it out as the series went on this Utah series, he was amazing. And, you know, he did some really smart stuff, even in game six, Marcus Morris is a guy who kind of wants to be out there, you know, especially when the crowd is like that. And they're hit a point in that game where Lou is just like, I'm going to ride or die with this lineup. But Marcus Morris, you've, you've done a great job this series, but you're

not in the lineup. This is whatever we're doing. I'm keeping it. It's working. And I think a lot of coaches sometimes kowtow to especially guys like Morris, who's an alpha where it's like, oh, I got to get my guys back in. He's just Lou kind of rides with where the series goes. That's why with Phoenix, I think he's going to figure it out. And I think he's going to figure out like, I shouldn't play cousins in this series. I need to go small. I need to have energy. I need to pressure Booker. Um, especially the next game when Chris Paul doesn't play. Booker's going to be a point guard. They have to pressure him. They have to annoy him.

It was the stuff they were doing to Mitchell. It's like, just make him uncomfortable. Make him think. Make him go. Make him go. We're going to take a break. A couple more things to hit here. All right, coming back.

So we're going to save. We thought we were going to do some Bucks Nets in this one, but I think we're going to save it. We're just going to do the East for part two. And we had a couple other things we going to do some Bucks Nets in this one, but I think we're going to save it. We're just going to do the East for part two. And we had a couple other things we want to do. We, we, some, some, some NBA new stuff that happened. The Kemba trade. I never talked about it on my podcast.

Do you cover it on yours? No, it happened as I was traveling. So. Yeah. Interesting to watch how this was covered. Because there was a big thing about the relationship soured with Kemba and the Celtics after he found out they had tried to trade him during the off season. And then it becomes a thing where it's like,

well chalk that up to another thing with the Celtics where, you know, every player on that team, they know like they're expendable and they'll trade anybody. And this whole kind of this thing that's been lurking with this team really for the second half of the Angel Era was basically like Angel trade. Anybody has no loyalty to anybody.

I personally think it goes back further than that with the Kemba thing. It goes back to the pandemic. His knee was hurt before the pandemic. They gave him all these exercises to try to keep working. And I didn't see this reported anywhere, but I think I talked about it last year, gave him all these exercises and stuff to work on his knee so that, you know, because the trainers weren't allowed, you couldn't be in the same room with anybody. So it was like, Hey, you got to work on this, do all this stuff. And from what I heard, he didn't do it. And when he came back to the bubble, when they were about to play, his knee was in the exact same shape it was before the pandemic.

And then they had to do, you know, basically two months to try to get him in condition to play in these playoff games. And I think that was when the discontent started. It wasn't from the Kemba side. I think it was from the Celtics side initially that they just felt like they spent all this money on this guy who had a bad knee and then didn't take care of it before the bubble.

So, you know, I think they were hoping he could rehab it for year two. But at the same time, I don't feel like they had a lot of loyalty after how it played out where you could argue if he was any better in the Toronto Miami series, they make the finals. If he's even 80% combo and he just wasn't healthy. So I think from that standpoint, they're either like, either this guy didn't, didn't work on his knee correctly, or his knee is degenerative. Either way, we're in trouble. We have to get off this asset before the league figures out

that he's not an asset anymore. Now, a year later, they have to dump him with a first round pick. But I think it started pre-bubble with this stuff. Yeah, I believe it goes both ways. I think you're right on with some of the criticisms that were happening last year, which actually didn't come out last year. And I think it was pretty quiet. And I haven't heard it brought up because the athletic piece I read was very pro Kemba. And the part where Kemba, where I would agree with, because I was talking to somebody with a different team about this, and it's like, look, you can't give Kemba four years and that kind of money and then already be floating them in trades. You just don't want to do that you just don't want to do it like i

get it because i always think the age isaiah thomas kairi trade criticism is bullshit because as i would ask any other gm or fan base be like oh okay so you wouldn't trade isaiah thomas jay crowder the pick for sexton and ante zizic for kairi irving you because you wouldn't do that because you'd want you'd want people to respect your front office more. Like that's nonsense. Anybody given that option would have done the trade as well. And it sucks for Isaiah Thomas, but that's the business that you chose. But it's also, it's Avery Bradley, it's Jay Crowder.

It's basically everybody that was like, oh man, these guys, these overachieving Celtics. And then they would just, as soon as they could upgrade, they would. I'm not saying, by the way, you and I agree. I think that's kind of how you have to run a basketball team. Your goal is to try to get three all-stars. But I do think the perception that built up over these last eight age years was like, that dude will trade anybody at the moment's notice. So the Kemba thing played into it.

Right. So I think Kemba, and I would agree with Kemba on this part, being frustrated by that, being like, I just did this deal four years, all all this money you guys want to bring me in here um but I think the conditioning part of it post pandemic where a lot of people you know I mean look we even started the start of this season where guys are like wait we're starting now like I thought we were starting in March and you saw a few guys although I think this generation of athletes does an incredible job of kind of the year-round maintenance it's not like we had it back in that short season. We remember 98, 99.

I mean, guys are coming back in that short season. Dude, you guys did not expect to be playing this year. Right. The Kemba part that I that I won't have is that there's a way to frame the transaction to make the Celtics look stupid. And maybe they are stupid. All right. But not for this reason where you're like, wait, so you could have had Horford, you didn't,

and then you brought in Kemba, and now you're going to get Horford back, and you had to attach the 16th pick to it. Loss. Well, that's a little unfair. The Horford deal at the time when he left to Philly was massive, and most people didn't want Horford back

at that number anyway. Then Kyrie decides to bounce, which is fine, but to salvage Kyrie leaving, I thought it was actually smart to bring in Kemba's salary slot in the sign and trade for Rozier. And then you're like, okay, well, you kind of salvage something on the fly. Cause I don't remember reading too many articles. The number might be zero that were criticizing the Celtics for bringing in Kemba at that, not at that time as a 29 year old former all-star. Like I don't, I don't remember...

Need average 25 a game that season, all that stuff. So I think a lot of people signed off on that deal and felt okay with it. So now you look at it this way, and you go not for 21-22, it is how can we reinvent this team on the fly around Jalen and around Jason Tatum, and does Horford bring us something

that we don't have a toughness that was certainly lacking last year? I loved the Kemba deal when they did it. Found out that summer because I was like, why didn't Charlotte just pay him? I don't understand it. And the thing I heard back was they were worried about his knee. So the knee thing was there. Yeah, they were right. And they were right. Yeah. But that was, I heard that that week from multiple people, they're worried about his knee and you hear that. And you know, you and I put this stuff through the same filter, which is why sometimes I don't really like talking to people. Cause I think you get spun constantly. But in this case, I hear that and I go,

Charlotte's butthurt that they can, but didn't want to stay there. They're just telling people they didn't want to sign him because of his knee. Well, obviously his knee was fucked up because his knee was really never healthy other than for two months with the Celtics. And I think the thing people have to realize who weren't watching the Celtics all the time was he was really a liability defensively. He was hunted by any good team in a way that was kind of insurmountable and Toronto did it and almost won a series that way. Uh, Miami did it and they did win the series, but then even

in the regular season, there's just, it's a league, it's a point guard league. And they were constantly losing point guard matchups. Remember we, I talked about that dumb website that has the, the matchups. He got killed. He was like 14 games under 500 on that list. And I just think they're better off. I think it's an easy pitch position to address and get better at and get lucky at. And there's always like the campaign out there. You can always trade for the Derek Rose.

You can always find the quickly with the 25th pick or maybe Pritchard. If he ends up looking out, you can always find the quickly with the 25th pick or maybe Pritchard if he ends up lucking out. You can always find a TJ McConnell type. You can patch together that position for a lot less money than $36, $37 million. I was more confused about it from OKC's standpoint, to be honest, because that team doesn't need more picks. I actually liked Moses Brown. I was fired up.

He's in the trade. I thought he had some good moments. And I don't know if the 16th pick is a game changer unless you're trying to package three picks to move up or something. But I don't see how it helps them to take that Kemba contract on for two years. I don't think he adds value from what I watched for two years. All right. So that means Oklahoma City now has 36 draft picks over the next seven years, 18 first round picks, 18 second round picks. And I think it has solely to do with when you have that many picks and you don't know

who the long-term people are on your roster. Like there's a couple of wings here and there that I've always kind of liked, but I don't know how many of them are in their future other than Dort is on a good team, a nice bench option, and then Shea Gilders, Alexander, who statistically this year was off the charts, and then he was too good, so they shut him down to try to get in there,

and then the Clippers take that last thing. By the way, side note, the Clippers, for all the shit they took being down 2-0, like, oh, hey, you guys wanted it. It's like, look, careful what you got, careful what you want, or what the hell is the phrase?

Careful what you wish for. Yeah. Ryan, first time on a podcast um and now they're doing well but uh when i when i look at what they're doing i think the kemba money is is solely like okay maybe we can flip it later on but here's what i would say is wrong if you think they're going to take all these picks and then go bring in the next superstar that's mad because they can overwhelm a team and be like, wait, you guys want five? We'll do 10 picks. Screw it. I don't think that's what Oklahoma City wants to do. I think they want to have these high picks. They'll probably suck for two more years. Figure, hey, if we have five or six of these or move up in drafts, which doesn't really happen in basketball, clearly as much as it happens in the NFL, then maybe we can grab two foundational pieces, but then continue to supplement those pieces with other draft picks as opposed to just packaging all

of the picks for some star. Because I think with Oklahoma City, you constantly have to be worried about, is this guy going to want to stay here, especially when he's not homegrown? Well, the Poku trade is a good example of why he's stockpiling picks. It allowed them what they move from like 22 and 29 to 17, something like that. You, you, you basically paying 120 cents on the dollar to move a little higher to get guys you want and take chances on guys.

And I think, I feel like Presti is going to have more pokus in them where you're just basically home run picks where you look like a genius. If it works out and if it doesn't work out, you're big. It's like an advanced version of the process. It's like process by volume where it's like, all right,

we have all these picks. We roll the dice on this guy, this guy, this guy, this guy, and three of them pan out. Now I'm, now I'm looking great.

I guess the part I didn't understand with the Kemba pieces, I understood the Horford thing. So I got an extra pick for it. Great. Uh, when they flipped Danny green, say it went and for Schroeder, they got Schroeder for Danny green and a pick.

And then the way it worked out, they ended up getting three picks. I get all that. I just think Kemba is going to be really hard to flip as opposed to the, uh, Horford thing where you got to pay full price this year, but then next year, if you want to buy them out for 14, you can, I would never personally buy a guy out for 14. I would rather have the expiring at 27. You know, I just, I always like having

those big expirings. I think that's been one of the issues with the Celtics the last couple of years is not having that big ass expiring just in case. But yeah, if you look at, you just go back to the summer of 2019, huge ramifications for the Celts where there's, in six months, it goes from, can we get Kyrie and Anthony Davis on the same team

to Kyrie's gone, Kemba's in his place, Horford's gone, and none of us know that Kemba is hurt and it eventually goes backwards I'm not going to be, yeah, I won't be buyouts two years from now because you have no idea what's going to

happen, there could be somebody else that comes along and you're like, oh, okay, because we made, I mean, there's all sorts of transactions that'll happen between now and then Horford looked pretty good last year in OKC, it's not like he's you know, at the tail end of his career. I think he's a useful guy. He's a useful locker room guy.

They still have a trade to make. I don't think Thompson's back. And, you know, the big thing we're going to find out is how much do they like Marcus Smart and whether he's somebody that is getting shopped around. And I think there's a couple teams that you have to look at those role players in that 15 to 17 million range. Smart's one of them. We're going to talk about Nets bucks in part two,

but what do you do with Joe Harris? If you're the Nets, do you chalk that up to, we just had a bad series or do you look at that a little more carefully and like, Hey man, this guy looked terrified in the biggest games we played. And is this somebody we can count on in a series or not?

There's a bunch of guys in that range, that 15 to 18 range that I think we could see flipping around. And then you have, you know, the Ben Simmons question, which we're about to be where we have that game coming up, but the Ben Simmons trade value slash trade thing, um, game seven, they, if they lost to the Hawks, he went from being the centerpiece of a hardened trade to, I don't even know what his value is. Like, could you get CJ McCombs straight up for him? If they like,

let's say they lose to the Hawks and he's terrible. I don't even know what his value is at that point. Yeah. It's really a perfect way to end the first part of this podcast because, you know, that's the thing about Philadelphia. If they get through Atlanta in game seven, I still think Philadelphia

has a chance to win a championship. But no one can tell me, like, see, the Ben Embiid thing works. Because I think that's kind of the lesson in all of this. And if Milwaukee, you know, if Durant's feet are behind the line

and the Nets move on, is Budenholzer fired on Monday? Does he make it to Monday? You know, and then all the questions about Giannis' limitation as an offensive player in the playoffs. And then what the hell's wrong with Middleton and Drew, which I know we're going to get to all this stuff in part two. But there's such a fine line. And this is also something we talked about months ago, where it's like the way you start looking at some of these new teams making a run if the Lakers can't get through the playoffs, there's going to be these conversations that we've had for years.

And one of the teams that we've had these doubts about for this specific flaw, they're probably still going to end up winning a championship. Unless it's Phoenix, who, with a healthy Paul coming back, pulls it off. It's a good way to put it. I still, I'm still in on the, so you think Phoenix wins the series? I think the Clippers win the series. Yeah, I do.

I do. Even if, if Kawhi comes back. All right. All right. We are going to watch the end of the U S open and we're going to watch the end of, uh, we're going to watch the whole game of Hawk Sixers and then come back. We're gonna talk Hawk Sixers. Then we're going to break down one of the most bizarre,

compelling game segments. I can remember bucks nets that will all be in part two. We're solo. I'll see you in a couple of hours. I don't have feelings with him on the wayside on the wayside never

I don't have feelings with him