The Bill Simmons Podcast - Part 1: Boston Gets Jrue Holiday With Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: October 2, 2023

In Part 1 of a two-part podcast, The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss Jrue Holiday being traded to the Celtics, what’s next for the Trail Blazers, a look at the new East...ern Conference, and more! Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producer: Kyle Crichton The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Starting point is 00:00:00 Coming up, Drew Holiday of the Celtics. Russilla was here. Next. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet it all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking,
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Starting point is 00:02:19 Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. We have a new rewatch of us coming on Monday night. Check out the ringer.com. Check out all of our podcasts. This is a two-part podcast. Rarely do this on a Sunday. We usually have Cousin Sal on and he's still coming on. He's going to be part two later tonight. We'll do Guess the Lines. We'll react to the week four games. This is part one. Ryan Rosillo is here. We're going to talk about the Drew Holiday trade to the Boston Celtics and all of the ramifications it's all next first our friends from Pearl Jam All right. So we're taping part one here.
Starting point is 00:03:12 It is a little past four o'clock Pacific time. Just watch the Pats completely shit the bed. We're not going to talk about that. That'll be part two. Part one, Ryan Rossellos here. We're talking Drew Holiday, the big trade. How is the NBA different for you right now? And are we done? Do we finally have the 30 rosters? Is this what we're looking at?
Starting point is 00:03:33 Do we know who's going to be on everybody's team or are we somehow not done? I never think we're done anymore in the NBA. And I know you're being a gracious host here, but you and I talked for five minutes today. I think you have the headline take on this, okay? I think you have the headline take on, like, what the top of the league looks like. Are you ready to share it this early? I think Boston has the best top six. I did not feel that way 24 hours ago.
Starting point is 00:03:57 I did not feel like there was a clear best. I trust this team in crunch time. And if Porzingis stays healthy, which is a huge if, I think they have the best six and they can fill around and they have the most ways that they can play whoever in a series. So from that vantage point, you had to do the trade and they gave up a center who has been hurt every single year. And I don't fully trust that he's ever going to be out there when it matters. Brogdon, who was hurt and was mad at the team and two picks. And you get Drew Holiday, who was a 2021 finals hero, who's one of the best defensive guards
Starting point is 00:04:34 in the league, who's still really good and just raises their ceiling. Now you can go, you can go white holiday, Tatum Brown and a center at crunch time. And you're good. You can switch on almost everything especially if you get anything from Horford so were you similarly enthused yeah I love Drew you know there's some stuff with his his shooting in the playoffs where it's been pretty bad or you're like is that just because he can't make shots in the playoffs or is it just what happened statistically I mean it does happen I mean if I'm getting the negative parts out of the way, like, yeah, sure. He's a little bit older. The big situation is a huge
Starting point is 00:05:09 question mark. I can't believe what they got from Horford last year. Like, so I don't know if you can just pencil that in because he was way beyond expectations, at least for me or for what I had for him. But when you can add Drew for those pieces and and I'm with you, when Rob Williams is right, it's really, really nice. But you can even tell when he's out there, you're like, is something wrong with him again? The number of times that I've watched Rob Williams in Celtics games, I'm like, I know he's out there, but wait, is something? And every time, I thought Marcus Smart was trying to end his career
Starting point is 00:05:39 with some of those alley-oop passes, depending on how he lands. Is this going to be the last one we ever see from him? So to me, it makes a lot of sense. By the way, on that Rob point, my dad texted me after the trade. He's like, Oh, I hate giving up Rob. I'm like, you complained about Rob more than anybody I know in my life. You would text me from the games going up. Rob's just off. Rob just walked in the tunnel again. I don't know what happened. I just, like Brian Barrett had a tweet, 32 games, 29 games, 52 games, 61 games, 35 games.
Starting point is 00:06:13 Those are Rob Williams' last five years. It just wasn't reliable enough for a team that's trying to win a title. I interrupted you. No, you didn't because it's a really good point because what's going to happen, I mean, you know, it's just, there's definitely, like if Przingis is hurt, it feels like the whole thing is screwed up. And there's a really good chance that that could happen. But if you're talking about like the allocation of minutes and the talent that's getting those minutes, well, the talent that's getting those minutes just went up with Drew Holiday.
Starting point is 00:06:40 And that's, I think, the simplest way to look at it. So they turn Marcus Smart and Grant Williams and Brogdon and Rob Williams into Drew Holiday and Porzingis, more Derek White minutes, more Peyton Pritchard minutes, and then there's a little bit of an X factor with who's going to be like that ninth man, tenth man, kind of big four-slash-five person.
Starting point is 00:07:04 Maybe, I don't know if he plays more. you trade like that. I feel like that's the easiest position to pick up in January and February. The big thing for me is I think white was ready for a bigger role. I think white and holiday together is magnificent as a, as a backcourt. And I read some stuff today. They think white's going to come off the bench. I don't know if I see that. I think I would come out of the gates with White and Holiday and Tatum and Brown in the center and maybe bring, to your Horford point, like maybe bring Horford off the bench and really try to rest his minutes during the season
Starting point is 00:07:35 and be careful with him and make him a bench player and then the playoffs reassess. But I think that having those four guys all together, they complement each other so well. You can play basically any kind of defense against any perimeter guy in the league with those four guys. And they're just better. I mean, there's just no way around it.
Starting point is 00:07:54 They're better. He's a much better player than Marcus Smart was last year. And, you know, you made that point about the shooting. He'd have those games. He'd go five for 22 in a playoff game. You know, he'd... But I do feel like he was asked to do a little bit more than maybe what he's supposed to be doing. I don't feel like he's a pure point guard right now. You have white who can handle most of
Starting point is 00:08:13 the ball handling. He can play off the ball and they're going to get the best version of him. Awesome locker room guy too, by all accounts. I mean, really like a beloved teammate wherever he went. And I think they wanted to change the chemistry a little bit. I think this was an unhappier team than maybe they led on to the outside world last year. Yeah, look, I definitely like him more than smart. And, you know, to be totally fair, when I'm looking at like the Lillard side of this trade last week before we knew the second piece of Drew and upgrading from Drew to Lillard, I'm going, OK, well, now you're top two in Milwaukee's like in the argument for the best two in the NBA. Okay. And that's, that's really what this league has been about now post the teens decade where it was the arms race for your top
Starting point is 00:08:54 three. It's you look around the league, you go, okay, who's got the two best? Like, let's come up with the five teams who have the two best. And with Lillard and Giannis, that's like a whole nother level. So when I was looking at it, it's like Lillard compared tonis, that's a whole other level. So when I was looking at it as Lillard compared to Drew, Drew is not somebody you're expecting to break down a defense off the dribble. Oh, hey, we're stuck, end of the shot clock, make something happen, where Lillard can literally do anything right into the final second of the shot clock, and you feel like it's still a decent look. So that part of it's a huge upgrade, but he's number three to four
Starting point is 00:09:24 as far as an offensive option he also and i don't know this is just me talking out loud as i thought about the trade it's pretty clear that when boston's offense gets into trouble in the playoffs like tatum and brown haven't figured out a way to kind of unlock it other than just like i can already picture in my head like i know what the tatum move is going to be i already know what the jalen brown move is going to be i don't know if smart was able to to make their life easier with the playmaking yeah and then sometimes i even think smart would go like well if you guys are going to screw around like i might just i might just be green light on this possession i don't think drew necessarily plays that way so So, you know, it's, it's probably silly
Starting point is 00:10:05 for me to think that like, Drew's going to be the Steve Nash type who comes in and sets up all these great late playoff possessions, but there may be something in lessening the burden of those guys feeling that they have to do or defaulting to just forcing the issue as much as they do in the playoffs. I like how much ball handling they have to your point. Cause they were talking about experimenting a little bit more with Tatum as a point forward this year, which makes me nervous a little bit, just cause you know, he's six foot nine. I'm not, I'm not sure that's the best use of him, but they seem pretty adamant.
Starting point is 00:10:34 Like we feel like he could be a little bit more of a creator. And then you think white can do that. I, to me, white is the key to this season now, because if, you know, other than the Porzingis health thing which I almost I'm gonna knock on wood um but they part of the reason they made all this movement and they got rid of Brogdon and Smart was I think they really wanted to push weight to be the lead ball handler for them and a creator and there's some unbelievable pick and roll stats with him and uh and just if certain people set him a pick in the way, even in the Miami series,
Starting point is 00:11:05 he was one of the only guys who could create offense. So I think they have that, plus they have Drew. And the reality is, for Drew, this might be the deepest offensive team he's been on, right? When you think back to, like, he was on some pretty weird Philly teams and some pretty weird New Orleans teams, and even when Milwaukee was at its best, it was really just Giannis Middleton and drew. And that was it. This, this there's
Starting point is 00:11:30 more shooting and playmaking around him than I think we've seen. Hey, maybe it'll be a slight upgrade on the flip side. He doesn't have Giannis who was the second best player of the century, probably, but I liked the spot for him. It seemed like he really wanted to go to a contending team and I don't really know who they were competing against because for reading through some of the reports, it just seemed like Philly. I don't even know what the trade was for them. Portland wanted at least one piece back, probably two that they could do their keeper package. They wanted picks back. Golden state wasn't even in it. And it didn't seem like OKC ever threw their hat in the ring, which I was shocked by. Because I felt like OKC was the sleeping giant of this whole thing
Starting point is 00:12:10 with Dort and some picks and just say, fuck it. Let's see if we can be really good this year. So it seemed like it was down to Boston and the Clippers. They just had more assets. I don't know if Portland keeps Rob. He's on a good contract. They already have Aiton. My guess is they're probably spinning him.
Starting point is 00:12:27 Does it make sense to have both of those guys? My sense is they're going to try it out. The thing with Rob is if you think he's an awesome defensive player that's just out there, he's awesome when he's used a certain way. Once Boston unlocked that two years ago, where they stuck them on a non shooting big, and then you could see other teams adapt to it. It's like,
Starting point is 00:12:51 well, let's stop giving them an out where Rob can just roam off of this dude. That's not a threat. Cause I think that, you know, this is just going to turn into like, now that he's not here, but I mean,
Starting point is 00:13:01 have you listened to us talk about Rob Williams at all last couple of years? He, you know, he, I don't, I don't think he's, I know what the defensive metrics are. I know the on off stuff. It's a big reason why I think the analytics models always love Boston. Like sometimes you'd look at him and be like, Hey, I think this team's good. But like, these numbers are overwhelming. This is like, yeah, it's, it's so far like as if there's this huge gap between Boston and everybody else, which I never really felt going back these last two years.
Starting point is 00:13:27 But if you're Chauncey Billups and you think like, okay, Rob Williams is going to go out there and like wreak havoc. It's like, well, he has to be used a certain way. So maybe they feel like that's in defensive support to Aiton. And with Aiton, you know, I have, I'm not quite sure what to expect. Well, this is the one thing he's probably going to put up huge numbers because he's not going to have older dudes that have a higher status in the league that go, I'm sick of passing it to you. So he's probably going to get more touches. We'll probably see like early eight numbers and like 22,
Starting point is 00:13:57 10 for the first six weeks of the season. Yeah. I'm with you. Yeah. Like he'll, he'll, he'll put up some big numbers there, but you know, defensively it's really about his competitiveness because there were times, I think going back two years ago, when we were thinking about him with that run of the Suns in the finals, you're like, look at this guy. Like he can switch out on the smaller players, he can rotate. But it's all about the way he's wired. And I think long term, unfortunately, like we already kind of know the answer there. Like, I don't think all of a sudden now you start playing with some fierceness after being in the league this long. Also, he was the fifth option on that team. And there seemed to be real resentment toward him.
Starting point is 00:14:30 Yeah. In that whole Phoenix culture of like, why doesn't he just realize we don't need his offense? We need him to basically rebound and block shots and crash the offensive boards. I think his attitude was probably 25 years old. I want to be the best player I can be. I already went to a finals. I don't, that's not, I think I could do more than that. So I don't, I don't think anyone was necessarily wrong. As I said, I know my Thursday pot, I just hated the trade for Phoenix. I just thought they got the poo poo platter back. You know, they got some, some, some spare ribs back and a couple of egg rolls and, and that's it. But they did not get an entree back.
Starting point is 00:15:06 And I think he's an entree on the right team. Whether he's a guy that made sense for them, I don't know. But I know that they didn't get a good haul for him. I think Rob, for his contract, for what his talents are, is a really intriguing piece for them or for another team because you could trade for him and it's not like a daunting salary, right? I think he's, what is he, like 15 a year or something like that? No, it's a really good, yeah.
Starting point is 00:15:30 I mean, it was a really low-cost extension. And he's still a pretty young guy. Yeah, so from the Boston standpoint, though, they are all in now. I mean, this is a really expensive team that has, you're talking just this year, Drew's at 36, KP's at 36, Tatum's 37.6, JB is 32, Derek White's 18.3, and Al is 10. So from a tax standpoint, this bumped them up 14.4 million. They're, they're potentially a super tax team unless they, uh, can do some shaving, but they just have six really big contracts now. And I think, I don't think they care. I think they're in the mode of like this,
Starting point is 00:16:15 this league can be stolen. Denver is a little worse from a depth standpoint. The Lakers are, are tied to whatever LeBron's health is going to be. Milwaukee has Giannis and Dame, but really a lot of subpar defense and perimeter stuff for them I think is going to be a real issue beyond the two-man game. Philly's worse. Miami's either the same or worse, depending on how you feel about some of their young guys. And then the West is like,
Starting point is 00:16:42 I started doing Miami Bay research this weekend, and so the West is like, I started doing my MBA research this weekend. We're so the West is like, it's a bloodbath. There's like 11 teams that I think had plus had minus playoff odds to make the playoffs. There can only be eight. And you know, I think there's going to be some zero sum game stuff there.
Starting point is 00:17:00 And especially if somebody loses a guy for 20 games, it could be a dramatic, all of a sudden you go from like a three seed to the 10 seed. If you lose one of your best guys for 20 games. So I just think the Celts looked at the league as a whole and they were like, the East is significantly worse and we could be a one seed and we could potentially dominate this conference. And I'm here for it. Ultimately, it's going to matter. Does Tatum go up a level or not? You know, cause you're always as good as your best guy. Can Tatum become a top five guy in the league and battle these dudes in the biggest, biggest, biggest, biggest games in the biggest series combined with this cast they have?
Starting point is 00:17:37 I'm pro the trade. I applaud them for going all in on it. And I'm actually surprised he didn't go for more. Because think of that trade, right, 33 good pretty fair contract with the player option um they gave away two picks that probably you know it's this warriors pick in 24 that's top four protected they gave up their own unprotected in 29 brogdon who you who I don't think there was exactly a hot market, and then Williams. So I thought that was pretty solid value for them.
Starting point is 00:18:11 I thought he was going to go for more than that. It feels like it's always just the number of picks now anyway. And you've got to wonder if you work for the Celtics and you're a college scout, you're like, hey, Brad. What? Right. Do you hate picks.
Starting point is 00:18:25 Do you care if I, if I do some bartending on the side? Is it okay if I get a second job? Hey, did you go to the Metro semifinals? No, I'm at the cast. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:18:38 Send those scouts to Europe to just scout the, uh, the Euro league and all those different things. But you look, you just made a really good point like really the way the drew thing will be judged will be based on tatum ceiling and wherever that is and it still feels a little weird that we're this many years into tatum and you know it's not like there are these epic flame outs in the playoffs no we're taught we're talking about
Starting point is 00:19:04 nba finals and then when the states get raised but it's like the celts are turning into the buffalo bills a little bit where it's like and granted you know i still can't believe they got down three out of the miami heat and they end up losing the series and you know credit the heat and everything but it's it's like look it's not like they keep losing in the second round all of a sudden so i don't i don't quite understand that or maybe it's just because the stakes are raised and you know they haven't done it done in the last couple years or they'd lost the you know but i maybe it's the eastern conference finals where i felt like when they
Starting point is 00:19:32 were losing those prior to the last two years i was like i don't know i was kind of amazed they were even in a lot of those eastern conference finals the offense got so stagnant that it just felt like against a certain type of team they weren weren't going to be able to score at a high enough level to actually win the title. That was the takeaway from 22 and I think 23. Yeah, and 22. It was just too hard for them to score at some point. Yeah, 22, I completely agree with it.
Starting point is 00:19:56 But when it comes specific to Tatum, and maybe I'm just going off of the millions of guys that want to talk to me about it that are from back home, and he can go for 51 in a in a clinching game. And then the next bad game, it's like, I don't know if this guy has it. And but the thing is, is like, I'm not completely dismissive of it either. And that's probably the challenge of being a franchise guy who's not really a top five player in the league like when i look at when i look at some of the player rankings and i see tatum ahead of booker
Starting point is 00:20:33 every time i i disagree with it and so i know booker's resume isn't the same necessarily even though you know they sort of are the same but i don't know if you if you agree or with that, but I don't know if that's just because I've, I've sat and listened to all of this Tatum stuff. And then they had those games too, where I've watched Tatum, where I'm like, wait, like, where, where's this guy at right now? Is it just dribble, dribble, dribble, step back three the whole time? Like, do I want them to miss layups? Will that make me feel better? You know, like I don't, it's the off season for me and thinking about it, but I, I think specific to Tatum, like he he's, he's going to be what happens here. It's not going to be any of this other stuff really. Yeah. And the history of the NBA says the age is in his
Starting point is 00:21:16 factor that over these next three years, this is it. He should take a leap, right? It's not, he's not maxed out yet. He's hitting his 26, 27, 28 seasons. And this is usually when you climb and you peak as a player. And I think the Celtics are banking on that. Lots more to discuss. Let's take a break. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. You know me, I can't go a day without sports. I really can't. And now Monday nights are all about hockey. That's right. There's a new exclusive home for streaming Monday night NHL hockey, and it's on prime all season long. Watch prime Monday night hockey, deliver unreal plays. The biggest goals
Starting point is 00:21:57 can't miss moments. Matthews, McDavid, Crosby, the NHL's best. They're all on Prime. Prime Monday Night Hockey. It's on Monday. It's on Prime. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer.
Starting point is 00:22:18 Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. So is it fair to say for 2024, at least for this upcoming season,
Starting point is 00:22:49 Boston-Milwaukee is now the best game? That's the most interesting. Anytime those two play, I will go out of my way to watch this between Giannis and Dame, Drew playing his old team, Drew and Derek White against Dame, Giannis going against his Boston team
Starting point is 00:23:06 that doesn't have Grant Williams anymore. He always did like a half-decent job keeping him in check. The fact that I think those are now the two best teams in the East, kind of definitively, and they're going to be measuring each other this whole time.
Starting point is 00:23:19 Plus you have Giannis. I don't know. It's year by year for him in Milwaukee at this point. Boston all in with this team financially. I just feel like this is somehow the marquee matchup now in the league. Would you go Warriors-Lakers or Lakers-Denver? What would you say? It feels like Denver is being entirely dismissed with all this stuff
Starting point is 00:23:39 as this happens. And I don't want to do that. I was trying to think of what's their... I don't know if they have a kind of a rival measuring stick team equivalent to this Boston-Milwaukee thing where this for nine months, these will just be these two teams that are now eyeing each other.
Starting point is 00:23:56 And then you're going to have Miami over on the side going, oh, you're going to count us out. We're not in this. Oh, he caught it. And they're going to have a huge chip on their shoulder again. So you can kind of see where the East is going. Philly, Embiid already had his depressing tweet today. And Philly, I mean, they're over under on FanDuel.
Starting point is 00:24:13 It was 48 and a half. Them getting a 49 win seems almost inconceivable to me. I can't wait to watch the Sixers this year. I mean, I cannot wait because What a car crash. I just, what is Harden going to do? He's
Starting point is 00:24:33 up in the stakes against Morey. That stuff from the club the other day with the Daryl Morey is a liar sign. This is the weirdest heading into media day situation I think we've had since kobe and shack broke up and this is the last time i remember like oh my god i this whole this is going to be a whole saga um this is like i don't know where this goes well because hard to play a
Starting point is 00:24:57 game for them right because harden and his his reps are thinking like hey the big deal is still out there for you but how do you you prove that you're worth it? Well, I'm not saying I know where. But what do you think? You think those guys are sitting around going, oh, too bad, you're going to be a $15 million a year guy now. Of course, they don't believe that. But he's got to be careful, though.
Starting point is 00:25:19 They have that 30-day rule where if you don't report within a certain amount of time, you lose your free agency for the next season. So you have to at least be somewhat professional. So he's going to have to report. Does he fake an injury? Does he just say, I'm not talking and actually plays pretty well? And then the other question for me is... It's all on the table.
Starting point is 00:25:36 It's all on the table. He's a legendary quitter. No one will be better than him. When he's inducted into the Hall of Fame, that should be on the bus. Quit in ways no one ever thought was possible. Invented new ways to quit. Well, Kyle, cue the TikTok camera up for this question. If Miami acquired Harden,
Starting point is 00:25:57 my initial reaction would be, oh my God, that's insane. And then after five minutes, I'd be like, holy shit, that might've been a good trade. That might be the only team left that can save him. If they go and it's like just Kyle Lowry and a protected 2028 first,
Starting point is 00:26:17 like basically that's his value now. You're looking at 15 cents on the dollar for somebody who is a top 15 guy halfway through last season. But if you're Miami and you missed out on all this other stuff, are you happy with what you have? Or do you bank on the fact that you have Riley and Spolstra and Jimmy Butler and Bam and this certain culture in place and Harden's going to have to come in there and be like, you know what, let's bet on the talent. We can afford one knucklehead. Can't have two, but you can have one.
Starting point is 00:26:44 I think it's an interesting idea for them they're too smart because here's the other thing is like harden is not even close right they're too smart like whatever you want to say not get seduced by james harden and i mean the obvious joke of harden in south beach is if it's some recovery thing meaning like okay he's gonna he's gonna redeem himself there and lock in i mean he's trying to simultaneously tank a team situation while proving that he's worth the money that he's already passed on twice this is unprecedented stuff i want a 30 30 on this like don't ever let them tell you you're not worth anything if you're actually worth less or like whatever you know i could i could workshop what if i told you someone cost themselves 100 million dollars over the course of three years and ended up playing in hong kong
Starting point is 00:27:29 still wanted 200 million you know so i don't i don't know how it's going to go you know the the default is always the teams are scared to death of the guy going like hey i need a second opinion on this knee they get the second opinion they okay, so I'm not actually holding out. There's nothing you can do. Like, I remember at one point with Ben Simmons going, oh, wow, this is actually pretty admirable. He's not going to fake an injury. Like he could go, ah, you know, I've got a C6 that's a little tweaked or whatever. And it's like, no, I'm actually going to go with the mental health route and then tweet videos that I'm back for like two plus years and do a bunch of sit downs talking about how awesome I'm going to be. He's really playing five onfive now. He's back.
Starting point is 00:28:06 Yeah, no, look out. So I don't think the Heat... Well, first of all, I think the Heat was obviously very disappointed for a million different reasons on the timeline. There were probably some other deals out there for them. They held off. They thought they were getting gamed the whole time. Yeah, what do you think was out there for them
Starting point is 00:28:21 that they now regret not chasing? Because I think they were pretty certain that this Dame thing was going to play their way, think what do you think was out there for them that they now regret not chasing because i think they were pretty certain that this dame thing was going to play their way including letting vincent and streus leave those aren't deal breakers i think they can survive without those guys but i also think if they felt that dame wasn't happening i think they might have kept one of those guys i know streus got a lot of money. I don't know. Can I read you their team now? They got Bam, Kevin Love, Jimmy Butler, Tyler Harrow, and Kyle Lowry
Starting point is 00:28:50 as their starting five. Caleb Barton, Duncan Robinson, Jaquez, Jovich, Thomas Bryant. I'm not counting that team out. Counting them out in which way? I know they'll have a weird regular season and it'll be up and down. They'll crawl their way to 45 and 37, I, cause I know they'll have a weird regular season and it'll be up and
Starting point is 00:29:05 down and you know, they'll crawl their way to 45 and 37, whatever with that roster. But in the playoffs, I don't want to see them. I'm just, I'm on the record permanently. I don't ever want to see that team in the playoffs. And it's not just cause they lost Vincent and Struess doesn't mean we should be like, well, cross them off. But I think as a regular season team, Milwaukee and Boston just are clearly poised for more wins and more success. Yeah, I mean, this took way too long to circle back around. But if we're just talking the Eastern Conference, it's Milwaukee, it's Boston.
Starting point is 00:29:36 And I know the rule will be we have to sit there and say, well, you can't rule out the heat, like you just said. I mean, again, I can't believe what happened last year. But there are also things happening that had literally never happened before, and they were all happening at the same time. For Caleb Martin to turn into what we thought Donovan Mitchell would be
Starting point is 00:29:51 in the playoffs is one thing. What Jimmy did in Milwaukee in round one was almost unprecedented historically. Right. Like, that's Jordan stuff that he did against them. He turned into Michael Jordan for two weeks. Right. And then, you know, even the one game they won against Denver, that fourth quarter was the most efficient
Starting point is 00:30:10 single fourth quarter of any game for any team in the entire regular season and playoffs. That's what they had to do. And they still did it to even get one of those games. So I know that I'm supposed to just go, Hey, you have to, you have to pencil them in on that one line, not as a one seed, but you have to go Milwaukee, Boston, and then Miami to be respectful. And I want to be respectful of it, but I still can't help but think
Starting point is 00:30:32 like last year was fluky. It just kind of was. I'm surprised they didn't go after Drew. It's like the quintessential heat guy. Yeah, but you think Portland? And then would have taken Lowry and some picks. But obviously that got super ornery on both sides I don't even know if they can call like can they call for it I mean it all
Starting point is 00:30:50 depends on which side of the argument you want to I mean I know we've been over this for like three months and all came to a head when the deal finally went down but you know if Portland didn't want to deal with Miami I don't know that that's necessarily wrong. Like Portland felt like Miami was in this and the agent was telling everybody in the league, don't trade for them. And clearly Dame was certain that it would only be Miami because we're used to the players always getting their way. And my point was, you know, for, for months, I was like, how many times do you have to make a decision where you're like, I'm only doing this and I'm never doing this and I won't do this and I won't move here but i won't do that show but i'll do this show or whatever and then like it comes down to the very end you're like all right i guess i can do that show or i guess i could live
Starting point is 00:31:32 there or i guess i can come to the uh you know what i mean like you you end up compromising a little bit and that's where i think portland was kind of smart so i don't i don't necessarily blame portland for taking it personally because i think the agent part of it really pissed them off but at the end of the day like do you want to add it all up and compare with the hero packages and I don't even know if we know what the final Miami offer is because based on the timeline of all the reporting last week because they hadn't really even talked and gotten a in a formal like yes no here's our best offer in mid-July so I even if it were going to be a third first from Miami and Hero and some of the other salary
Starting point is 00:32:07 filler, and yeah, for the record, I like Jovic a lot. I liked him before the draft. I like what we saw this summer. But I don't know. Even if you think it was personal and unprofessional on Portland's side, do you think they did worse? They still got players that they need for the players they already have. They now have two
Starting point is 00:32:23 centers. They have more trade stuff. There's no way it didn't make more sense to do the two deals that they did right because like you know joking about the hall of fame thing like i think og and obi should get in just based on who he hasn't been offered for like you know he was he was more of a role guy but messiah said no to durant he said no to lillard He said no to Lillard. He said like, he just, then we're like, we, we, he's headed to Springfield and the same thing, 16 and five for three straight years. Can't,
Starting point is 00:32:51 can't sacrifice that guy. And then when hero gets inducted, we'd be like, you know, we know he was kind of primarily a score and he's not the normal, but for, for three months, he was one of the greats.
Starting point is 00:33:02 He was one of the greats. Now, granted it was during the off season, but he was one of the great players of all time. And, you know, Now, granted, it was during the offseason, but he was one of the great players of all time. And, you know, obviously, I'm having fun with this a little bit, but when you started digging around, like hearing what Hero could be flipped for, like if Hero were so great and so valuable,
Starting point is 00:33:14 then get a three-way deal going here where those pieces that are being given up for Hero because the other team believes all the propaganda from this summer that then they get flipped to Portland in this deal. So however you feel about the tensions. I think Brooklyn messed that up. I think Brooklyn should have jumped in and tried to steal Hero and give some picks that Miami could have used.
Starting point is 00:33:36 I like Hero as an asset. I just didn't think he made sense for Portland, but I still like him as a player. He's a good offensive player. What player piece was going from Brooklyn to Portland to appease what it appears like they actually wanted to put together an actual starting five? I'm saying I would have traded
Starting point is 00:33:52 a couple firsts for Hero if I was Brooklyn. I would have traded a couple of those Phoenix firsts. Oh, and just sat on it? No, for Hero so that Miami would have more picks to offer for Dame. If Miami would have more picks to offer for Dame. If Miami was in Portland doesn't want Hero,
Starting point is 00:34:09 you need to get picks for Hero to put in the Dame trade. And I'm Brooklyn and I'm sitting there. I would have tried to get him. Okay, but I'm still asking you. Above average guard. No, I think he's good. I think he's good too, but it just became, I think, rather
Starting point is 00:34:24 inflated for three months. Well, he didn't make sense for Portland. We said this for three months. He didn't make any sense. He didn't make any sense for the roster. It was going to be Sharp, Simon, Scoop, and Hero. Those four guys aren't playing together. But it seems clear between Aiton, Rob, that Portland actually wanted a couple people they could pencil in to their starting five.
Starting point is 00:34:41 And so if Hero goes to Brooklyn for picks and miami can offer three and two swaps or whatever and you know the swaps just kind of blow all this stuff out of proportion by the way there's another version of this too where it's like do i really care about swaps with miami because there's a pretty good chance that the worst miami season is still really good because they've got the best you know who knows the next guy that's actually going to want to go there they're not going to go they've had two bad seasons of like 30 years. The Milwaukee getting Milwaukee swaps and getting that Milwaukee and protected is super appealing. If I'm Portland,
Starting point is 00:35:11 because now you're banking on like, yeah, is it 50, 50 Giannis is still there in five years, you know, based on the history of the league and how things go and how guys move around. And all of a sudden you could be sitting there,
Starting point is 00:35:24 you know, swaps big wise was doing a whole thing on swaps that I enjoyed about how how things go and how guys move around. And all of a sudden you could be sitting there, you know, swaps. Big Waz was doing a whole thing on swaps that I enjoyed about how the swaps never since Boston, Brooklyn, the swaps don't come through nearly as much as you think. It would be an interesting research project to actually see how many of them hit. But I think in the Milwaukee case, those are, those are swaps I would rather have than a Boston swap or a Milwaukee swap. By the way, Boston kept some flexibility. They still are able to trade, I think, two more firsts and some swaps, and they have eight second-round picks.
Starting point is 00:35:54 If they want to do one more thing, I just don't know. I don't really fully understand the super tax yet and just how punitive it is, but they could still make the roster better. Can I read you Phillies starting nine right now? Or their top nine?
Starting point is 00:36:10 Embiid, Harris, Tucker, Harden, and Maxey. Melton, Reed, Korkmaz, and Beverly. That's what I have for their top nine. And you got Harris on an expiring contract. 40 million bucks. And they don't really have any picks they can attach to anybody. And they got to figure out the Harden piece,
Starting point is 00:36:31 but it doesn't seem like anybody wants them. And I got to say, I'm surprised that Clippers haven't bid on that. I think it really speaks to how bad Harden's reputation is right now, that the Clippers are like, yeah, Terrence Mann,
Starting point is 00:36:43 too rich for our blood. We got to stay out. Like you thought if I had said to you in February, the Clippers have a chance to trade Terrence Mann, Norm Powell, and Robert Covington's expiring for James Harden. And that's the entire trade. You would have been like, that's insane. Of course they should do that. But now that's, I don't think you could get Powell or Terrence Mann for Harden.
Starting point is 00:37:03 Who's trading for him? The problem is, is if you're the Clippers, too. The reason he wants the Clippers is he thinks they were going to give him the extension. So what if you traded for him and then you went, let's see how this year goes. And then he's like, well, at least I'm out of Philly. I've just never seen a guy expect something while also sabotaging himself in, in such a way. I mean,
Starting point is 00:37:27 it'd be one thing of Harden. We're 27 and doing this. I don't want to, let's not talk about him anymore. I'm tired of James Harden. Um, Boston, Milwaukee,
Starting point is 00:37:35 you recoiled at the, is this the best rivalry? But then neither one of us could come up with a better game. No, no, I'm just like, ah, that's not fair to Denver,
Starting point is 00:37:43 but I don't know. I don't know who Denver's rival is. I guess maybe it's Phoenix. Maybe Denver-Phoenix is good, because then you get the Nurkic-Jokic thing. You get some offense on both ends. So maybe that's the Western version of Boston-Milwaukee. But the problem is, there's
Starting point is 00:37:58 more than those two teams in the West that are going to be measuring each other. I mean, you could make a case for the one seed in the West. You could talk me into five teams. You really other. I mean, you could make a case for the one seed in the West. You could talk me into five teams. You really could. I think the West 51 games might be the best record in the West this year.
Starting point is 00:38:12 So, you know, and the fact that Denver's from a depth standpoint, you know, they're putting a lot of stock in Christian Brown to hope that he can do those Bruce Brown minutes, right?
Starting point is 00:38:26 And not to mention Porter staying healthy for a whole year. And, um, I don't know. I just don't see a juggernaut in the West and I don't think it's Phoenix either. Yeah. I mean, this isn't really even about Denver. It's about the rivalry part of it. So yeah. Storylines in some of the Milwaukee Boston stuff that's already happened. Yeah, that's fine. I'll give you that. Uh, and I'm not deferring because I'm, I think you're wrong and I just want to move on. That's fine.
Starting point is 00:38:50 But I just think Miami Portland, Miami Portland robbery. Now GMs having to be seated across from each other. Uh, all right. I would have more stuff for you. Who is a bigger loser in this whole Dame sweepstakes? Was it Miami or Philly?
Starting point is 00:39:04 Now that the Dame sweepstakes have officially pulled out. I actually feel like this is worse for Philly because the merry-go-round has now stopped and they are now just stuck with James Harden going forward. And I don't really see a path for them to improve their team. And I think probably rightly, they didn't want to trade Maxey or involve him in any stuff. I don't know. you would you put maxi if it was maxi and harris and whatever pick it took to to close down dame
Starting point is 00:39:34 and just go for a two three year window with him beat and dame would you have done it well i mean just to be consistent here do we think maxi if we're making fun of the hero offer do you think maxi and harris and picks get it done for philadelphia if we're max if we're making fun of the hero offer do you think maxie and harris and picks get it done for philadelphia if we're if hero we're like hey how do you play hero i don't i think yeah i think they would have to flip maxi to a third team which is probably why i never got any traction yeah portland certainly does need maxi yeah it's kind of the same thing as much as anybody wants to debate max your hero i don't i don't feel like doing it right now uh the biggest loser is that you know i know miami feels like the answer but at least i can look at miami going okay they'll move on from this and they'll figure it out and they have the best
Starting point is 00:40:17 coach and you know if there's ever a case study for a team fighting through adversity it's it's them last year philly this is where. This is where they ties in with their philosophy on everything, right? It's like now they've been counted out again. Now it's Boston, Milwaukee, and they're over here. They get to do the chip on the shoulder thing. Guess what? It's going to work. And I still don't want to see them in April.
Starting point is 00:40:40 Does Embiid, are we in the clock now? Yeah. I think so too. Do you agree? Yeah. What was your reasoning for like, just the way the NBA works? I think this Harden thing is going to be super unhappy.
Starting point is 00:40:58 I don't, if you were going to say like, FanDuel gambling odds, will this Harden thing be super unhappy, unhappy, or happy? I think I would bet on super unhappy. It just feels like it's headed to a really bad place. And Embiid knows it. And he's looking at it. He turns 30 this year. These are peak years. How many years does he have? How many years physically is he going to be an elite center who can play nine months a year? So Harden doesn't get his wish.
Starting point is 00:41:32 He has to play well if he still wants the contract. So do we get the feature, the sit-down? Where is it? Local media? Is it national media? Showtime basketball? Yeah, where Embiid says yeah where mb says we're great we're on the same page like rachel nichols show basketball youtube page
Starting point is 00:41:52 very possible um i will not believe it by the way so i'm with you i don't even think fanduel offers the unhappy mb prop they like, we can't put that up there. We had it up for a second. We had to take it down. People were banging it. Do you know that Tatum and Brown
Starting point is 00:42:17 are the only guys left from the 2020 Bubble Celtics? I didn't. Is that true? In three years, every other person that they played with in the bubble is no longer on the team. I think this is just the league now. I think it's like a fucking miracle if you have four guys on the same team for more than four years and maybe you have your top two for a while or you're in the denver situation where you have your three plus gordon but for the most part like to just keep four guys
Starting point is 00:42:51 or more together is just not going to happen anymore but this this kind of like speaks to the milwaukee motivation behind it like the league is about your top two and you know jamal murray needs to be in that because he's got the title but also what he did in that laker series and could not agree more right and then yokich being the undisputed one now and being in his prime i mean here's the thing like if you really want to get into it and i was talking with uh somebody about this today but like as great as Giannis is, if something were to happen, can he unlock the possession offensively? Or is he just going to have to like out-physic you,
Starting point is 00:43:34 which has worked, all right? They already got him a ring. Like what he did against Phoenix and he made all those free throws, all of that different stuff. As good as Tatum is, we've seen it get bogged down, right? As great as, you you know it's weird because we kind of feel like people are turning the page on golden state which could be a mistake
Starting point is 00:43:51 but i don't think necessarily like the right but like steph steph can you know steph can because with his gravity he's still going to impact every possession so maybe he's still in this conversation the point that i'm trying to make and I'm taking too long to get to it, is that whatever you think you're going to do to Jokic, it's like a great hitter who never gives away at bats. They're probably still going to get a good look. They're probably going to run something that makes sense. They're probably going to end with better options offensively
Starting point is 00:44:19 than most teams, if not every single team, because of him. So, oh, you want to get physical? Okay, cool. You want to double off of him? Okay, cool. We're going to do this. Oh, you want to make sure to stay on the cut? Okay, well, now this guy is open on all these different things. So even though Denver, you could look at it and go, okay, where's the depth? Where's the depth? The Michael Porter Jr. thing is its own little experiment anyway. It's a lot like the Nash sons, where just knowing that you're playing with him is going to increase your efficiency. And it's happening.
Starting point is 00:44:47 Aaron Gordon's a perfect example of that. Like he's a completely different numbers guy now because having Jokic there makes it that much easier. So, you know, top two, even though Murray still feels like he's behind some of the other guards. No, I'm with you. They have the belt. If we're doing the two-man championship contest, to me, they have the belt. Giannis and Damer there and KD and Booker.
Starting point is 00:45:10 I think those are probably the three. You'd put what? Tatum Brown fourth? Would you put AD and LeBron behind or in front of Boston? I think I'd put AD and LeBron behind Tatum and Jalen just because LeBron's in his 21st year you know and and i just this is ridiculous it's ridiculous i know it's just like 2003 draft like at some point this has to end and badly i don't know what year it's gonna be but so i don't know but he's still
Starting point is 00:45:40 you know um in the end then there's probably a little bit of a drop off. Like you go into like Embiid and Maxie and Luca and Kyrie and start trying to talk yourself, Curry and whoever the second warrior is. But I think for pure, like our two best guys are going to go against your two best guys. You know, when it's Jokic and Murray playing KD and Booker, those games are going to be incredible. And I mean, the Boston-M that those games are going to be incredible. And I mean, the Boston Milwaukee games are going to be incredible. Like watching Boston throw all their shit at Dame and try to, you know, make him uncomfortable. We haven't seen Dame in like a really competitive basketball situation since 2019, you know, it was for, I mean, I guess the world championships or whatever in 2021, which he wasn't very good at. But we just haven't seen him in a while.
Starting point is 00:46:27 We haven't seen him out of guard. This is what I did part of my podcast about on Thursday. Like, I don't think people realize like how bad of a defensive player he's been the last few years and how we haven't really been focused on that. Because that in the playoffs is when you really see it. When people's entire strategy turns into, we got to get Dame on a switch and just torch him. And, you know, whether he's going to be a major liability for them or a minor liability, we'll find out. Um, and then the Phoenix thing, you know, I, I just don't think they're going to be able to guard anybody either. So maybe this will be a year
Starting point is 00:47:00 where offense carries it because at least Denver, as good as offensively they were last year, they got stops when it mattered. Right. They, in that Laker series, they got big stops in the right time. And you think like Yoke, H Murray,
Starting point is 00:47:12 like those guys knew how to defend when they actually had to. And I'm not sure Milwaukee. We'll see. We just haven't seen Dame do it, but who's your favorite. If you had to pick a favorite team right now, who'd you pick? Is it too early?
Starting point is 00:47:27 It's too early for me. It just is. Yeah. It's too early for me too. I was doing the start and research yesterday. I was like, Jesus Christ. I mean,
Starting point is 00:47:35 the Pacific, the Pacific has Lakers, Clippers, Kings, Warriors, sons. Those are just all five teams in the division. I guess the Clippers are the worst team,
Starting point is 00:47:44 but I think the league is like insanely loaded this year in kind of a shocking way just too much talent I'll never forget when NBA.com does the GM surveys and how much recency bias can play into the whole thing I think it was the offseason
Starting point is 00:48:00 where the Celtics I don't know I think it was like was it gordon hayward and and kairi for when it was kairi because kairi was 17 yeah and you're like okay well that's that's like an incredible haul and then oklahoma city had added carmelo late right and they did that survey right after it. And then the survey was like, Oklahoma City had the best off season. And they were like, if you just separated, like, there's no way anyone would ever say
Starting point is 00:48:32 that. So the point that I'm making here is that I don't want to be dismissive of Denver by going like, oh, it's either Milwaukee or Boston because I don't feel that way. I think any of the front offices are trying to do this stuff. It's a short list of teams that can say, we have a real chance. We have a real chance
Starting point is 00:48:48 to end up as the team. And Milwaukee is it. Milwaukee is on that list, I should say. Boston's certainly on it. Clearly Denver is because of Jokic. I think Phoenix,
Starting point is 00:48:57 in a weird way, is being overlooked. But it was so ugly. I just thought that was such a mess of a series against Denver. And maybe that was the most impressive.
Starting point is 00:49:04 Phoenix is on that list for for me I don't know if defensively they'll be able to pull up four rounds but I mean they have to be the Fandu odds Boston Milwaukee Phoenix Denver and the Lakers have the top five odds I'm good with all five and then the Warriors are sixth and I think I'm good with that too that would be my short list right now and I wouldn't really have anybody else except the Heat. The Heat have dropped to 30-1 on FanDuel. There's some, you know, OKC I felt like was one trade away
Starting point is 00:49:34 from really being interesting, but they just don't seem like they're interested in actually competing this year. But I felt like talent-wise, if you had added Drew to everything they had, I really felt like they could have been a top three team in the West potentially, regular season. You haven't even mentioned New Orleans, too, on top of everything else.
Starting point is 00:49:51 Because New Orleans started the season last year. I'm going, they might be the best one through nine. But we know the New Orleans story is the same one over and over again. But yeah, when I looked at FanDuel odds after the Lillard deal, Milwaukee was one, Phoenix was two. Boston was three. I think Denver was four. I think most places, maybe Denver and Boston, were the same odds. And now it's Milwaukee and Boston tied.
Starting point is 00:50:12 And then it's Denver. So it's moving around a little bit. I think Denver should be the favorite. But they might, even though they're weaker, they're not that much weaker that they shouldn't be the favorite. But it may be follow up on your point about the West in general that the odds will be different for Denver just because of how packed it is. Because how deep the West is. Yeah, you're right. For me, what you said earlier about the Jokic Murray combo, to me, that's still the, somebody's got to trump that. That was the best thing anyone had last year was when Denver needed a basket, they had those two guys and they were able to create a really good something every time. And maybe Dame and Giannis will pull that off. I really liked what the
Starting point is 00:50:49 Lakers did. Um, and I think Boston's better than they were last year. You know, I think there's going to be some over the next couple of days, people will point to the four guys they lost and the two guys that got back and they'll be like, they're worse defensively. They're not as good. It wasn't about the defense. And by the way, their defense would collapse at the worst possible times, right. And, uh, in 22 and 23, like their regular season defense was great, but they had some stops issues against really good teams for two straight playoffs. And then big picture was a seven year run for them. Five of them were really good. And I remember doing a thing with you in June. It's like, man, these runs, you never know.
Starting point is 00:51:29 All of a sudden, it could be over. They can't stand Pat. They got to be aggressive. I would say they were even more aggressive than I ever imagined, right? The Drew trade and the Porzingis trade were fucking ballsy trades. Maybe Drew a little less so
Starting point is 00:51:43 because it's a little more turnkey but trading smart for poor zingas um was was risky i don't i don't know it's really we're gonna be able to play nine months no it's it was a home run yeah and now the lack of depth it's a big position and you know we already covered the horford thing it's a miracle they got what they got from him last year so to expect it again I don't know about that. And yeah, I kind of, I kind of expect Przingis to be hurt, despite the fact he had a really good season last year. Let me ask you this.
Starting point is 00:52:13 Yeah. Does Milwaukee do all of this over if they know that Drew ends up on Boston? Yeah. I think that, I think all they cared about was they don't want Giannis to leave and ask out. And they felt like this having Dame making life easy, upgrading in whatever way possible and not worrying about what else happens in the league.
Starting point is 00:52:40 I think that's what they cared about. And Giannis seemed pretty fired up about it. Did you see the video yesterday of Dame going to Milwaukee and all those people waiting for him? I mean, Milwaukee has great fans. They're going to be, if there was any concern about, oh, he's not in Miami, he's not going to be happy, he's going to be super happy there.
Starting point is 00:52:57 They're going to love him. He's going to love playing with Giannis. But no, I think they do it anyway. Why, do you think they don't? No, we agree. I just wanted to throw that out there. I think it's exactly, I don't need to add to Why? Do you think they don't? No, we agree. I just want to throw that out there. I think it's exactly... I don't need to add to the answer
Starting point is 00:53:08 because you answered it the right way. It was about Giannis. From what I can tell, the super tax is $182.8 million and the Celtics are above it. So I don't know. I don't know. Bobby Marks had an interesting tweet this weekend
Starting point is 00:53:22 who basically said like, when you look at... And with some of the stuff that we talked about, these new rules and how punitive they're going to be and that it's basically a different label for a hard cap at the top of this stuff. Mark's entire point was, Boston's going to do this now while they can because if they try to do this, they just wouldn't be able to do it. I'd have to really dig into it the way he did. Granted, I'm in Mississippi watching football. So I wasn't as on top of it as I normally would be. But it's definitely, it makes sense for Boston to go. I mean, I think sometimes we spend all this time on this stuff,
Starting point is 00:53:57 but it becomes really simple. Hey, are you better with Drew Holiday? Yeah. Are you better with Drew Holiday? You are. And you'd have to watch, you'd have to live the Rob Williams experience for the highs and the lows and the what the hell's going on with that guy. Like it was constant. It was all the time. And the salaries, you know, 11, 12 million the next couple of years, it's a great number for him. Maybe it works out.
Starting point is 00:54:20 I still think the pairing's about maybe protecting eight and a bit defensively instead of him just replacing him Twin Towers? Samson Olajuwon back? Bring it back just block to block Baseline screens for each other I'm going to really enjoy watching this Celtics season
Starting point is 00:54:39 This year you will you think? No I'm going to really enjoy this team I'm excited for Jordan Walsh. I'm excited to know if Joe Maz is a good coach or not once and for all. Like, they've removed all the excuses for him. They can't say, ah, chemistry, and then locker room. You had some dark days. You had some dark days in Missoula.
Starting point is 00:55:00 And I don't know we're out of the woods. And that's part of the gamble. Like, if you're ranking the Celtic gambles, giving up all the draft picks they gave up would be third. Porzingis. Porzingis is one. Banking on that dude is second. And tripling down on Joe Mazzulla
Starting point is 00:55:14 and trading all the guys that rubbed them the wrong way is number one for me. Because you better really think you have the right coach. Because they greased the skids for him, man. There's no excuses now. If he can't pull this team off, that's on him. This is a really good team. I mean, we have White and Holiday.
Starting point is 00:55:33 It's one of those teams, like you and I, we both talk to these people that work for these other NBA teams, and there's just certain guys they love. Like, they all love Derek White. Derek White's like the perfect, like, oh my God, I would love to have Derek White on my team. Even when they trade him from the,
Starting point is 00:55:46 from the Spurs, you just hear it, right? Like, Oh man, I just love that Derek White. Holiday has been like that since when? Like 2013,
Starting point is 00:55:54 14. He's always been one of those guys that the, the smart kind of whatever basketball people say, Oh man, true holiday. Love that guy. Um, Jalen Brown, not really as much of a
Starting point is 00:56:06 guy like that i would say no but like when you're a little more confusion with him when you talk about i don't know how often they would play the four maybe it's specific matchups and really none of this matters until the playoffs but you know the thing i like about certain teams that do really well is well how many guys do you have that are really comfortable finishing a possession with the ball in their hands? And that's a lot of guys. Well, now they have five. If they play Porzingis at the end of the games instead of Al with the Tatum Brown and the two guards, all five of those guys can score. And White and Holliday are both really good. Weird shit just happened in this play. It's complete chaos. Like Holliday, the best play of his entire career was that alley up to Giannis,
Starting point is 00:56:47 right? Which was one of the crazy, he, he gets the strip and just fucking throws a half court alley up to Giannis to quench a finals game in Phoenix. Like that play was bonkers. Um, so I don't,
Starting point is 00:57:01 I don't know. I think this team's going to be really fun to watch. I like that combo. Um, all right, we're going to you go. We're still, uh, you're doing your podcast tomorrow. Yeah. Tomorrow morning. I'll be back in game, not since I was in college, which you're old enough to remember, when we had Mark Wilson, we had Tommy Hodson and the Humilinator and Steve Grogan with the neck brace. And there was just like this five-year run before they got Bledsoe when it was just bad quarterback play was a lock. And I didn't know Mack was... What he did today against Dallas was the darkest QB moment for this franchise since the early 90s. It was that bad. He completely blew the game immediately and made five terrible decisions that just submarine them. It was really rough. Hey, at least the organization didn't overpay Brady.
Starting point is 00:58:06 Because that would have been a disaster. They wouldn't have won. The Celtics are in pole position in this city. Like, I don't think they've been in a while. Because even the B's are kind of, you know, it seems like they're moving into a different phase of things. The Red Sox, holy shit. And then the Pats, this is about as bleak as it's looked offensively.
Starting point is 00:58:26 Tatum's like, this is it, man. It's all lined up for him now. Yeah, I don't think there's any disputing that. I hadn't really thought about ranking the four teams. How would you even rank them? I guess the B's would be second even because they still have some talent. I feel like the Red Sox
Starting point is 00:58:43 stuff is nastier. Is this true or. I feel like the Red Sox stuff is nastier. Is this true or not? Do you think Red Sox fans are still more mad about Mookie Betts than Pats fans are about Brady? Oh, the Red Sox fans are way madder about Mookie Betts. Think about that. I don't think it's even close. They gave him away.
Starting point is 00:59:00 It was bad when it happened, and now it's like a million times worse. By the way, the playoffs are about to start, and it might feel worse three weeks from now than it does now. They didn't win any games. If you're going approval rating in the city, then it's Boston, Bruins. Celtics easily first. You're right.
Starting point is 00:59:20 Let me know when the playoffs start. I don't have a lot of Bruins takes for you. I apologize. They had a nice run and they came really close to winning a second cup and they have nothing to be ashamed of. And they had, you know, they,
Starting point is 00:59:33 but last year is disappointing. You're losing the first round. That's that's hockey. But you know, when you think about it, like I remember just me dipping my toe into hockey. I'm like, they don't have enough lines for all of these guys this is
Starting point is 00:59:46 incredible and they added these two dudes in the trade deadline and then yeah for two i was like this is going to be unbelievable like think about all of these options and i know there was health issues with uh with a couple but yeah i think by default there are two and and the red sox are probably last in approval ratings because that one just feels. Like if you're Henry, you're going, so you losers couldn't win for eight decades and now you're mad at us? And it's like, yeah, actually, that's the way New England works.
Starting point is 01:00:13 Because when you're trading guys that have a chance to be in your life for 20 years, how many great players are you really going to root for in your entire life? They get to spend their whole careers with them. Mookie would have been one of those guys so I think that's a much tougher thing to forgive like when they when they lost Fisk and Lynn when I was little like I never recovered from that watching Fisk on the White Sox for the 80s and you know just just cheaping out on those guys it was unrecoverable yeah that's that for me because
Starting point is 01:00:45 that's where the gap will come up like i had to be taught those lessons right what happened what happened dad pop right you know like a kid coming back from the village eons ago what did they do right what and so yeah mookie man i mean for somebody that was at Yazday when I was, I think I was eight, you know, like that was, I went to the Dodgers game. I brought my dad. He'd never been to Dodgers stadium. And Mookie went off while he was playing second base, like of all things. And then my father was like, let's leave. I went to three Dodger games this year and he played second short in one of the outfield positions of the three games.
Starting point is 01:01:25 I was like, you gotta be kidding me. How did they trade this guy? Uh, all right. Rosillo's podcast coming tomorrow. We are going to be teaming up with house in a little more than two weeks. We're going to be doing the annual over-unders. I cannot wait for, uh, for this year because the over-unders have never been harder to figure out ever. And there's Fando has more bets, too. There's some different playoff bets and some fun. You can bet on a team to be one of the six playoff teams that doesn't have to be in the play-in.
Starting point is 01:01:55 So lots to discuss. Rosillo, thanks for hopping on for part one. Really appreciate it. Thank you, Bill. All right, that's it for part one. Thanks to Kyle Crane for producing. Thanks to Rosillo. Much later tonight, Sunday night,
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