The Bill Simmons Podcast - Part 1: Indy Crushes at MSG, Knicks Summer Targets, Dallas Delivers, and OKC’s Fatal Flaw With Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: May 20, 2024

In Part 1 of a two-part podcast, The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss the Pacers' Game 7 win over the Knicks to reach the Eastern Conference finals, a Pacers-Celtics preview, the Mavericks sending the Thunder home in a nail-biter Game 6, and more! Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, two game sevens. We got to do two parts. Knicks, Pacers, and a bunch of other stuff next. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. You know me, I can't go a day without sports. I really can't. And now Monday nights are all about hockey. That's right.

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And we will be running eventually on the YouTube channel, the Ringer Movies YouTube channel. I hope you subscribe to that one. Whole podcast will be on there. Speaking of Ringer Podcast, Fairway Rowland, Joe House, Nathan Hubbard, whose brother was in the top five after two days at the PGA. That ended as we were actually taping this podcast.

I'm doing the intro after. And Xander Shoffley won a dramatic. He fought off Beefy Bryson at the tail end, made a clutch birdie putt, I'm doing the intro after. And Xander Shoffley won a dramatic. He fought off Beefy Bryson at the tail end, made a clutch birdie putt, and congrats to him. It finally happened. So listen to House and Nathan break all of it down on Fairway Rolling, a great golf podcast. Coming up on this one, part one,

me and Ryan Rousseau are going to talk about a very sad ending to the Knicks season, a very happy continuation of the Pacers season, what the Knicks might do this summer. And then we dove into OKC and Dallas, the tale of two teams and how they handled the trade deadline and how it manifested itself in a really fun series to watch. That's all next. Part one of the podcast. Part two will be later, later tonight, Denver and Minnesota after that game. This is part one.

First, our friends from Come to LA, Pearl Jam! All right, we're taping this. It is 3.13 Pacific time, Sunday. The Pacers just crushed the Knicks. Where do you want to start? Indy, greatest Game 7 shooting day in the history of basketball or devastated day for the Knicks franchise? How about this? I was expecting the Knicks to come back, so the Celtics faced the Knicks without

Brunson with a broken hand. I did have thought. Burks made a shot, and it got down to like 12. I started getting ideas. I was like, this is great. Imagine that happens. So I give up trying to understand Game 7s anymore because this was the exact situation with a young team

that we already saw look through in the headlights in game five. And you figure MSG, crazy crowd, Knicks, they're going to get all the calls. I thought for sure the Knicks were going to win. I also thought OJ and Obi was going to be able to play 25, 30 minutes. I thought Hart was healthier than he looked in the game, although he was giving his best. And Hartenstein was kind of a sneaky injury that I felt like the announcers didn't mention as

much. So it was a compromised Knicks team. At the same time, the shot making from the Pacers was, from the get-go, awesome. I think that's the best they can play, and they did it in Game 7 in MSG. Yeah, they set a record, or at least the last 50 years, Kirk Goldsberry had the tweet out 101 points through three quarters of a Game 7, most in a Game 7 in the last 50 years. After the first quarter, they were at like 78%, and it actually went up to 81%, so they were

22-27. Halliburton, who I was a little worried about because of how bad he was in Game 5, he took nine total shots, and there were still two drives in the first quarter, specifically the second one where he was at the rim, and he just pirou was in game five. He took nine total shots, and there were still two drives in the first quarter, specifically the second one where he was at the rim, and he just pirouetted in the air and threw it out. So I'm like, whoa, dude, what is going on with this?

Because he had a couple of those plays in game five where I'm thinking, that just means you're just not comfortable once you're inside the paint. And if anything, just take it and see if you get fouled. You know, you're their best player. You have to go aggressively there. And then he finishes the quarter with 15 points. Siakam got off to a good start.

They couldn't miss. They couldn't miss. So a huge credit to a team that I had no idea, just like you, what to expect. I was probably leaning towards, I don't know, man, some Game 5 hangover stuff in there. And it wasn't even close. They were a completely different team. Yeah. So I think in-season tournament, stupid, but big game exposure with a big crowd, big audience,

some pressure. And then I think that game five really helped them, you know, watching this game today, how bad they were in game five. And they just didn't understand the urgency of the game. And I thought Hal Burton, we talked about on this podcast, was a little deer in the headlights. He, reading the stories about Carlisle coming out of that game, how he hammered them, made them watch the tape,

all the loose balls they didn't go after. And, you know, I thought this was a great coaching job by him because they came out with a pace. He was clearly like, yeah, nobody's going to play. He's not going to be 100%. Hart's not 100%. Brunson's banged up. Like, just go. Press the pedal. Go, go, go. If we're going to go out, let's go out like how we've played all year, which they did. And a game seven since 1998. At various points in the second quarter, they were 22 for 27 and 29 for 38. They finished halftime 21 for 26 from two and eight for 12 from three, 76% total. It was the best playoff shooting half in 25 years.

And then even end of the game, they finished at 67%, Rosillo. I went back and I looked up the best game seven shooting percentages ever. The number one was Phoenix in, it doesn't say what year that is, but it was 61% against the Lakers. OKC was at 60.9 and Boston against Atlanta in 88 at 60.8. So nobody had even done 62% and they did 67%. Now,

some of that has to be the Knicks where, you know, precious of Chua playing a ton of minutes. Um, Berks is out there a ton of minutes, Hartenstein's compromise. Like you could tell the Knicks weren't flying around, but still like,

just, just from pure shot making pretty crazy. Yeah. And then TJ comes off the bench and makes everything. And you can sit there and talk about the offensive part of it for the Knicks. It wasn't bad. It's not like their totals were necessarily bad at the halfway mark and Brunson was still around. But we touched on it last week.

You're not usually going to be successful as great as Brunson is. And this is an incredible run. And it's almost like in a storytelling version of it, fitting that his hand broke because you couldn't keep asking this person to physically do this and carry this team. His shooting even better for the, just for the narrative. It was important. It was the left hand. And just to understand too, like, obviously I don't, but if you were writing out some story and it's like, okay, he's going to play so hard that he actually breaks his shooting hand, you're not really built.

Teams are not built to do this and be successful in the playoffs. And that's what makes it this miraculous that we're even talking about a game seven. And who knows if he's still out there. You know, a couple calls go their way. They got two quick fouls. The Pacers did at the beginning of the fourth quarter. And I was like, oh, I actually meant to ask you, can we at like conspiracy bill,

if we're going game seven, Knicks, Celtics love that market. What happened? Does this one not exist as evidence that it doesn't happen? I was banking on it. I thought for sure. It's tough though,

because when the Pacers are just making every shot they take, I think it's tough to give some 50, 50 calls to the other team. It never really came into doubt because it was, it was so clear so early on, but yeah, conspiracy bill was, was very focused on that.

I just like to keep track of the ones where everybody will be like game seven, MSG and Sunday afternoon, Boston, two markets. And then will be like, Game 7, MSG, Sunday afternoon, Boston, two markets. And then it's like, oh, yeah, the Pacers are now in the Eastern Conference Finals. It's just weird, too, because making the Brunson point of if they had come back and then the Celtics get the Knicks without Brunson, it's like, okay, but on the other side, too, look what the Pacers have done. They faced Milwaukee with no Gianis and dame who missed two games og who was a non-factor and and you're right like when you saw him in the beginning of this

game and i know og takes there's some stuff that came out when he'd missed a bunch of games it's like he's in no hurry when he's like 50 50 to come back and play so you're like is he really going to do that when he came out like okay this guy is really hurt like even he made he made a couple shots and then they showed that wide that wide shot from behind the basket of him being unable to shoot over on an open three when the pacers had transition and it made it 16 10 i wrote it down because i was like oh he can't even like jog to the right spot yeah like he was just incapable of like quick burst for eight feet and that was when you knew he was to come back yeah him making the second shot was like all i needed to see and then yeah because it was like he took this hail mary shot because he actually couldn't

like get into his shooting pocket or whatever he wanted to do from that spot it's like i might as well just go straight up and turn around and see if this goes in. And then you watch them off the ball and then they subbed him out right there at like six minutes to never be seen again. That was it. Timeout came back. When I mentioned the hottest shooting teams ever, it was the 06 Suns who had the record. The 2014 OKC, which was that great Durant team that really probably could have made the finals. And then the 88 Celtics, the last Bird, McHale run. And then the 05 Suns. So two of the top four were

Nash Suns teams, which the Pacers play a little bit like. But I was really, I was so impressed by Halliburton in this game. I noticed the same thing you did when he kicked it out that maybe the second time I was like, oh, Oh, it was the second one back. If they can come back, maybe he'll get tight. But he, he went the other way.

He started talking shit. When the guys start talking shit. Now Tyson Fury is an example. The other way of he was talking shit and then he got absolutely tagged. And all of a sudden he was talking no more shit. But how burn as this game was going, he's when, once he started talking to the courtside guys, I was like, okay, he he's good i don't know what happened to him in game five i don't understand it but it's water under the bridge now yeah i think development wise for him you know the comfort level like you know i know we'll get to it but like i look at sga differently even though they lost that series i look at sga differently now and it's and it's a huge compliment and for Halliburton in the series, I know there's just been a lot

that's gone on in his story for 23, 24, but I, as I was kind of walking around today, like thinking about this game, I'm just going like, I don't know. I was like, man, I hope I don't see that again. I hope I don't see him on the road, but I mean, they came out and they didn't miss any shots. So all of it was easy. You never even had a, it was never like a point they, you know, they got it to six at one point and I went, Oh, and then just like that, it's like another eight Oh run. So there was never like Dallas and OKC had these extended stretches of those games. Cause it was so tough at times where it was like, oh, it's eight points. And then it felt like three days went by and it's like, now it's six points. This game had two maybe moments. And if they were fires, they were immediately extinguished. The big moment midway through third quarter, 77-70. Knicks got to stop with a little over

six minutes left. Deuce had the cross court pass turnover. Miles Turner three, back up to 10. Brunson turnover. Tyrese layup. Five second violation, bringing the ball back in. Neesmith layup. It was 84-70 in under a minute. And that was the next chance because the crowd was getting back into it. And I wanted to see the Pacers put in a position of, okay, you guys are going to get tight here. And it went the, went the other way. And they were awesome. There was one point my buddy Hench texted me, Nismith, Nembhard and McConnell were 17 for 18 shooting at one point in the fourth quarter. When your bench is doing that. One of the things I liked about this Pacers team was that when McConnell, McConnell's like the rare bench guy that comes in and it's just could not be less

afraid and kind of relished the moment. But it was nice to see my guy Neesmith, who Brian Barrett texted me and was like, boy, it would have been nice if Neesmith played in the 2022 finals. Still a sore spot for the stealth loser Celtic fans like

me and Brian Barrett. I think that's a big assumption. I don't know. That's kind of a big assumption. Neesmith was going to be the difference against the Warriors two years ago. No, just saying. Just saying. It reminded me that they couldn't get him off the bench.

Think about that. It was a fair point. Think about that exercise, though. This is what I do with losses, Russillo. Don't take this away from me. You get 24 Neesmith, who up until like, I don't know, I mean mean it felt like for a week plus i was like yeah what happened to this guy's shooting yeah um and i think he watches like tom

amansky fouling videos but they're put up by cat so it's like cat amansky it's like this how to always be in foul trouble so yeah i don't whatever i mean we're making some but he was good he was he was really really good he started seven at seven so i mean what else can he ask for him on top of like there was some clear you know there was two big coaching things throughout this where you were like how come they can't get burks a few minutes and clearly you know i don't know if the series goes the other way if tibbs is willing to trust a guy who actually has been around is a consummate pro. I had another team texting me while it was happening,

being like, what the fuck? Yeah. This is stupid. And if you know anything about Burks, he's been around enough that he's not going to freak out. I mean, as much as I love Myles McBride, he had a layup attempt today. We were like, dude, have you not looked in the mirror?

He weren't going to finish this layup attempt today. We were like, dude, have you not looked in the mirror? Like, you weren't going to finish this layup at any point. So it's hard to really point to anything other than when the other team's shooting like that and Brunson goes down. Like, what did anybody expect? Burks has one of those jump shots that he's like the guy in pickup

where you just can't believe it's going in. There's just no arc at all. It never goes in clean. It hits like two, three parts of the rim. But when he started making, he made a couple of those in the second quarter and it was exactly what the Knicks needed. The Knicks got to 55 points in the first half, which is kind of a nutty total when you think no Randall, barely any OG. Hardenstein wasn't getting any offensive rebounds. But going back big picture for the series though, like if I'm a Knicks fan,

I'm torturing myself about all the ways that God hated us basically. The Nembhard game three, three is the first thing I'm going to think of when I think back at that series because they could have been up three nothing. That three was ridiculous. The whole play broke down. He was 31 feet from the basket. He was one for six for the game. Nobody in the arena, literally not one

person wanted him to take it. He made it and Halliburton put his hands over on his head, walking to the bench, like Thomas Hill, Grant, you know, the Thomas Hill-Christian Leitner game style, like just in disbelief that it went in. And if it doesn't go in, I think the Knicks win. They go up 3-0 for the series. And no team in the history of basketball has blown a 3-0 lead. So to me, it starts with the Nemhardt three.

The no-show in game five was weirdly important because it allowed Carlisle to basically kick them in the ass. And then OG starting and not being able to move, I think, was big. In retrospect, I wonder, do you think they should have maybe brought him off the bench? Use him as this lurking boogeyman that you don't know where you're going to get?

Because it was one of those things where they started him and within six minutes, like, okay, well, he's not going to be a factor. My guess would be whatever stuff they do pregame to get get him ready then they don't want him sitting on the bench for six minutes you have to get him going yeah yeah makes sense um he couldn't he couldn't move i mean there was a cut off the ball and then there was another three where you know the one cut he was screened but he just was stuck and then the other clothes i mean look everybody watched it uh i think he deserves credit for even trying to get out there can we do the big picture on the

knicks fan base um the you know the most lovable team they've had i don't think the personally don't find the carmelo jr smith tyson chandler team i don't think there's going to be a lot of knicks fans bouncing their grandkids on their laps telling them about that team, even though they were successful. Raymond Felton. This was the most beloved Knicks team since the Canby team.

And then you think, like, I don't remember another basketball team just getting decimated like this as the playoffs were happening. Pretty unusual. Like, you lose Randall, you lose Mitch, you, you lose Bogdanovich out of nowhere.

OG gets hurt. Heart in game six, who was like kind of one of their superpower guys. Cause you just play 48 minutes a game. And it was like, Oh no, he's fine. No tips.

These guys, they're just conditioned to do this. Then he goes out. Um, D Vincenzo was the only one who didn't get hurt. But I just think if you're a Knicks fan, small picture, that sucks. Thought we had a chance to play Boston.

Big picture, the way the East was set with all the injuries you mentioned earlier, you're probably not going to get a better chance with this unit unless you make a trade. Unless you can add a big- ass piece to what you already have or some sort of substantial piece, because next year the East is going to be better. And I don't think this team as constituted, I don't think it's realistic. The overachiever team is going to be probably less of a successful gimmick next year. Orlando will be a year older. The Celtics will be just as good.

Milwaukee will be back. Philly will be different, but not what they were this year. And they're going to have to do something, basically. We talk about this a lot, and I do think it's a good exercise of how far a team makes it, and then just like,

okay, is that who you think you are? Maybe Dallas getting there for a second time in three years puts more stock into them making it to the Western Conference Finals a couple years ago. And they beat a Phoenix team that on paper was statistically better than the team that had been in the finals the year before. And they just humiliated them and took their souls and the thing's never been the same since.

But, you know, if you're thinking about like the four or five best teams, I don't know that any of us really had Dallas in that group. But now you look at what they did this year and you're thinking about like the four or five best teams i don't know that any of us really had dallas in that group but now you look at what they did this year and you're like this feels way more real as a western conference finals participant so that yeah depending on which way it goes depending on who you get you know feeling really good about their chances no matter who they play against just because you know they they have a lot of pieces and it's all come together the defense has been better it's like you know going into next year i'll think about dallas differently with this year on the other side of the boston line i don't i don't know what i would have thought about the next well i guess i could tell you what i would have thought about at the next pacers is that this was a mess it's a mess

of a conference and you know boss is going to have all of this time off, and their starters are rarely going to have, it just was like kind of last man standing. And I'm not sure how much that'll change, like my ceiling thoughts on some of these teams. One thing that's cool, and I don't know why teams don't do this more often when they're at least in the vicinity, was they made that Siakam trade, right? And they gave up a pick and they gave up some stuff. And, you know, it's like, okay, that's fun. Like they're pretty good now. They can potentially sign him long-term and make him one of their three best players.

He was really good in the game today, especially the first quarter. I thought he had real purpose and was like trying to punish whatever the matchup was. And in general, like, you know, has been in some big games from his Raptors days. And he was the one guy they had, unless you're going to say TJ McConnell, who had at least been in some games where the hair on your arms are going to go up. But I look back at that trade and I feel like a

lot of teams could add Siakam and a lot of teams talked themselves out of it for a variety of reasons. Right. Like, I don't even know who really, who else was in that mix. And then he was like, fuck it, we'll go get him. And he's a top 60 guy and he played really well today. And it makes me think like, if they're being aggressive like that, I would expect them to keep staying aggressive. Whereas like, you know, what does Cleveland do?

Cleveland to me is the, I don't know what's going to happen with them. It seems like Jared Allen's going to get traded, and it seems like Mitchell's going to get traded, and they'll rebuild around Garland, Mobile, and their shooters, and then whatever they get back in those trades. But that's a wildcard team,

and I think Orlando's a wildcard team to me in the East. And I just assume the Knicks are going to go all in on somebody. Orlando will have to be better. I would just be shocked if Orlandolando isn't better i don't think franz is going to be just a bad shooter all of a sudden i think this year you know i'm not telling you he's he's stiff but they have the cap space they'll probably overpay somebody and get aggressive just to go ahead and add them cleveland has to break up the mobile island thing they have to and i don't know if it's a bit of fool's gold and it sounds like the garland mitchell thing too

if the reports were correct that that Clutch was basically like, if Mitchell's staying, you got to trade Garland. Published report. Yeah, no, no, you're right. I'm just trying to think, what would you rather do, keep Garland or Mitchell? I would keep Garland and Mobley,

and I think Allen has real value that they could get a real piece back and maybe even a pick. And then I would trade Mitchell because I don't think he's going to stay. I just wouldn't believe him. I don't think he's going to stay. So if he said, hey, I'll do the extension, you'd be like, okay, but what does that mean? We're just going to do this a year from now. Because he said that, though.

He has not said that yet. No, he hasn't said it. I'm just saying, what if he came to you and said, okay, fine, I'll do the extension. Would you be like, okay. Under the Ryan Murcillo rule of they're going to do the extension and then a year later be like, get the fuck out of here.

I don't know. I don't know if I would trust it. I just have to see what those other things, like we're all in love with trading all these guys, but I want to get back to your original thing on Siakam because I think it's worth diving into a little bit more. When the trade first happened, I was like i was like okay well do you know that you're keeping him and the word was they knew that they were keeping him so then when you look at the

pieces you're like okay that's kind of a no-brainer i mean i haven't always been the biggest siakam fan because you know i think one year i had him like it may have been him and actually donovan mitchell was like the last spot for an all-nba team yeah that's still even like whatever you think is wrong with mitchell or whatever you think the limitations are for siakam of closing a big playoff game i think the franchise i maybe it's probably fan bases even more than than franchises is just okay well who do you want like you you want somebody in the seven to eight range you want somebody who's a top 10 player? So if you're the Pacers, you go, hey, we'll never probably get Siakam in free agency. So let's just

go ahead and do this now. And let's figure out if he's happy with our place and wants to sign here. And the price really isn't that bad. I don't think teams get enough credit for being way more practical about the kind of player they can bring in. And if you're Indiana, that's probably the best you would do. So especially, I think we talked about this when it happened.

There's 30 teams in the league, which means there's 60 top two player spots, which means you want to at least have two in the top 60. Like we do this ringer hundred exercise that we vote on. And I think we did the last vote in April. I'd see Akam as the 41st best player in the top 60. Like we do this ringer hundred exercise that we vote on. And I think we did the last vote in April. I'd see Akam as the 41st best player in the league. Right. And it's,

there's no context other than just rank the players, you know, right now, who do you think are the best players? So they had number 41 and I had Halliburton at number 20. So they have two of the top 45, you know, then you get some luck in the conference. Then you get your bench to show up. Then you have a really good coach. And all of a sudden, you're in round three. I think the one thing we've maybe learned from this year is that

there's so much talent now that you can maybe sneak into round three. We're going to go through some of the stuff Dallas did that I didn't agree with half of it, but guess what? They had Luca, they leveraged a bunch of different assets and now, now they're two rounds away from winning the finals. So yeah, when you, when you look at the big list and you think like the guys I had after Siakam were Jared Allen, Brandon Ingram, Trey Young, Jaylen Green, Scotty Barlin, Scotty Barnes, Darius Garland, DeRozan, Shengun, Drew Holiday.

And then you get into the 70s, all of a sudden, you're looking at Grayson Allen and Terry Rozier and Jada McDaniels. It drops fast. So I like that they did it. I think they deserve a lot of credit for how they built the team. They didn't do that Turner-Heal trade when everyone was trying to bully them

into trading them, those two guys for the two firsts. They made a really smart Halliburton trade. But Neesmith, like getting Neesmith for Brogdon, that worked out. A lot of their stuff worked out. They could have traded TJ McConnell

at any point this season to a team that needed a point guard that kept them. So they did a good job. And I thought Carlisle was outstanding in this series. Yeah, I didn't love how Lady went from Nembhard to Neesmith because I just felt like it was obvious against Brunson. But at least he fixed stuff that wasn't working.

Like, we'll see some coaches, like, just stubbornly be like, nope, this is what we do. Like, I like how he fixed six and seven. Yeah. You're right, though, because Turner was weird because he was available forever. Forever? Because I remember when the Celtics had the Hayward

signing trade possibilities, there was like, okay, well, if it were the Pacers, because there was some interest there, can Turner then be flipped somewhere else? And then it was like, yeah, the trade market for him isn't really that good. So they didn't just want to give him away. And look, they've done this without Matherin, somewhere else and then it was like yeah the trade market for him isn't really that good so they didn't just want to give him away and look they've done this without mathren who i know is

probably a little too single-minded at times but man like if you need somebody to come off the bench he's a rational confidence guy who would have helped in a game like today yeah yeah because you know if you had other guys like siakam comes out in the third quarter and misses everything which i think is still i think he can be a little predictable with the way you have to defend him. And if OG had been healthy, then I think the Siakam story is a little different, even if I like ultimately the trade for all the reasons that we just brought up. I thought it was really interesting that Koulibaly was like, he's easy to defend. And I was like, oh, wow. Yeah, that was one of the rare, interesting player podcast

things. Wait, we got to take a break. I want to keep talking about this. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research.

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thousands of high-intensity focused ultrasound waves, zero incisions. And that very same day, two steady hands. From innovation to action, Sunnybrook is special. Learn more at sunnybrook.ca slash special. Let's flip it forward to the Pacers, who are now somehow in the Final Four, playing the Celtics.

Looks like we're not going to get Porzingis for about two games. Who do you think the Celtics were rooting for by the time we got to Game 7? Knowing Ananobi wasn't healthy. Knowing Hartenstein was banged up. knowing Brunson was banged up I wonder I mean come on Brunson breaks his hand are you saying I'm saying before I'm saying before game seven I still think it's the Knicks hmm yeah I don't know this team I think this team looked worn out, which is understandable. Yeah.

Well, when you're playing at the pace they played just to pull out that Philly series and then just to be in even the position to be in Game 7 in Indiana, plus everything they did the second half of the year, probably not sustainable. And based on just ball movement alone, if you're defensively Boston going,

hey, we have more big guys to throw at Brunson. We can go Drew. We can go Brown. We can even go some white Tatum. And then Hauser will come in and get switched to him twice, and he won't get past Hauser for the two times, and everybody's like, oh, that's right. He doesn't suck on defense.

So it would have to be New York. I would rather play a team that, as great as Brunson is, say this guy's taking 30 shots a game. Okay. Well, let's, let's see what happens. They've been on this physical grinded out pace now for a couple of weeks because at least like the pacers, you have to be locked in. They swing the ball, they move the guys drive. And like, there's a lot about their offense that I like, and there's not really a zero out there offensively. I was texting with Doc Rivers about them, and he was saying they were the best team in the league

at defending the first half of the court before you get into your offense. And he said this before the Knicks game, because he thought they were going to give Brunson trouble just putting miles on him as he brought the ball up. And I thought they got better at that as the series went along. By the time we got to game seven, even before Brunson got hurt, they were harassing him before he got the ball. They were harassing him as he dribbled the ball

up. Turner would come up to mid-court basically to double him. So he had to think about that. And it felt like over and over again, they weren't even in their offense until the 14 second mark. And it's, you know what, it's, it's the kind of stuff that Celtics seem to take three, four games in a series to even figure out like how to do little wrinkles like that.

So we'll see if they can do it big before we get Celtics Pacers, big picture on the Knicks. They have the 24th and 25th pick this draft. They have all their own firsts. They have a top 13 protected Detroit first that the protection just dropped for the next three years after that. They have a top 10 protected Washington first

that drops to a top eight in 26. And they have a Milwaukee first that's one through four protected. So they have the ability with the Bogdanovich contract, they can team option that, put 20 million on that. They can add contracts to it. They can get nuts and put Randall in there. They have a

lot of options. And I really think they're going to get Mikhail Bridges as the big target. I think that's who they want. I think they're going to try to overpay because I think they want those four Villanova guys together. And I don't think they want a major star. I think they want somebody like that. So that'd be my prediction. Who else do you think they want a major star. I think they want somebody like that. That would be my prediction. Who else do you think they would potentially pursue? Do you think the Nets would do that with New York? I think if it's

a 120 cents on the dollar. I just don't know why you want Mikael Bridges if you're going nowhere. That's a guy who should be on a good team. On a team like that, unless you feel like you can get Mitchell or Devin Booker, which they're not getting Devin Booker. They're not. Now you start talking yourself into Brandon Ingram and people like that, which is not

going to take you very far. If I were them, I would trade Bridges for more than he's worth and just start over with my Phoenix picks and whatever I got with the next thing. But that's just me. Do you think the 27 unprotected Phoenix pick is more valuable today than the number one pick Atlanta has in 24? Why do you ask? I just was looking at different trade stuff for Atlanta's pick,

which is always an interesting exercise. Cause I think no matter how, like however you do it, I always suck when I do them with you too. And I, I almost want to apologize after we tape them because you have more fun with it. And then as I work my way half through the fake trades,

I'm like, that's stupid. Nobody would do that. I like it though. You're a glass half empty trade idea guy. And I'm a glass half full trade idea guy. That's why we work so well at those. You're just like, nah, they won't do that. Nah, why would they do that. I like it though. You're a glass half empty trade idea guy and I'm a glass half full trade idea guy. That's why we work so well at those. You're just like, nah, they won't do that.

Nah, why would they do that? And I'm like, no, no, here's why they might do it. I'm a glass overboard in a rowboat with no sail, lost at sea. I don't know that the, well, first of all, I think the New York Brooklyn thing is, is something you have to think about and bridges is awesome. I would love to have bridges.

I think his decline this year was like, all right, cool. You guys want to have Cam Thomas take a million shots? Like, all right, whatever. And when I thought about the Mitchell stuff with shots? Like, all right, whatever. Yeah, right. And when I thought about the Mitchell stuff with the Knicks, you know, all the things in life that you want that you don't get and you should be happy, like it just felt like they were finally going to get Mitchell. They didn't believe that there was another suitor. Cleveland comes in and it's like, wait, somebody else wanted him?

And then it opens up this Brunson story where it's like, well, that would have never happened, okay? The most beloved Knick since the 90s, guys. it opens up this Brunson story where it's like, well, that would have never happened. Okay. The most beloved Nick since the nineties guys, some would argue even more so, which I think is, is a little aggressive. And now I don't want Mitchell anywhere near the Brunson thing, even though I kind of default to like, Hey, have more talent, have two on ball creators. Like that's what you want. But I't i think mitchell is a tough one because i think it would take so much away from brunson even if you'd love to see brunson have

another on-ball creator like that's what was so remarkable about this run is like di vincenzo can do some things it's not like you're running the offense through him at any point heart's all complimentary og had some incredible moments where even he surprised me but i think the overall package with him is that you're not going to just let him freestyle for multiple possessions an entire game offensively so what's that contract for you by the way for og i'm sure that's probably i mean it's going to be a huge scary number and with his injury history alone i mean i i guess i'm always surprised when people are like a little like taken back when I talk about like some of the OG limitations on offense notes where I'm

like, well, do you not like, you don't see it, you know, but I think we did this a week ago talking about, I think he'd missed 120 games in the last four years. They dialed up his minutes in the playoffs and he made it three weeks and got hurt.

Some guys just get hurt more than other guys. That's been his deal going back to college. This is who he's been. I always had that joke about LeBron. If he landed the wrong way and his leg came off his body, he would just go over and grab it and put it back on and then

be back in the game. Some guys are just wired differently. Thank you. I look forward to it every time. I think it in the game. Some guys are just wired differently. Thank you. I look forward to it every time. Thank you. I think it's the fourth time I've made it. Brunson ends, even though he had a bad game today, he still ends in 13 playoff games over 33 points a game for the playoffs.

And it still, you know, it just sucks that it had to end this way. But unfortunately, sometimes that's sports. Pacers-Celtics. 3-2 was the series. They played five times because of the in-season tournament. So the Celtics lost twice. One time, no KP.

The other time, no Tatum. Right, because Siakam only played one game. They haven't played in four months. And Siakam only played in one of them. So it's hard to do the season series thing. Just eye test, because I think I watched all of those games. The pace thing is a really good thing for... The pace thing that Indy tries to bring to the table,

like, we're going to play with pace. We're going to go. It's actually good for the Celtics because that's how they should play. So when they get caught up into that, it kind of unlocks some of the frustrating Celtics stuff of like, oh, they're walking up again, oh, Tatum's 45 feet from the basket, waiting for a pick for 15. Like it makes

them go. It's really good for them. It's not great for Porzingis. Coming off a calf injury, the pace would be the fear, but I think it's good for the Celtics. And I think just from a talent standpoint, you go from, you're basically playing a team with Brunson and a bunch of role players to playing a team that has Jason Tatum, Jalen Brown, Derek White, Drew Holiday, Porzingis when he comes back, Corford and a good bench. I mean, it's going to probably take Indiana a day just to be like, whoa, they're playing Tuesday night. It's a tough one. So it seems like an incredible break for the Celtics,

but this play has taught us to not think anything too crazy. One thing that has been apparent throughout this too is just, especially Cleveland, that he wanted to wear Horford out. Like Horford felt like he was in everything. And having to keep up with quick guards in a switch, and then also figure out how to kind of play two as one with Mobley.

Like Mobley did some really nice things. You went to game five, right? Yeah, and I was just watching it going, dude, he's in everything. He's in everything here. And Mobley deserves a lot of credit for some of these numbers he put up, but not having Allen in the way.

And he was eating for free on a lot of this stuff too. I would say two things about Mobley. One is I still think the way I look at his offense, I was surprised by some of the buckets that he got on his own throughout the series. But there was also a lot of opportunity for his life to be really easy offensively because you'd either have a small guy from the corner coming over to help him on the roll or Horford like trying to retreat. So when I think about the Pacers part of it, I go, okay,

but is it something where it's better for him because he's not going to have to deal with Turner who's going to pop more on that stuff? him because he's not going to have to deal with Turner who's going to pop more on that stuff? Or are the Pacers going to say, hey, based on what we saw against Cleveland, Turner, you have to be crashing hard off any of these high screens. But then on the other side of it, go ahead. Well, this is the thing I talked to my dad the most about at that series

because he went to the games. We just didn't understand. This is a series Boston was clearly going to win, right? Especially when Mitchell gets scratched for game five. my dad the most about it that series because he went to the games. We just didn't understand. This is a series Boston was clearly going to win, right? Especially when Mitchell gets scratched for game five. I don't know why they didn't experiment with different small ball lineups. He was so determined to just put Al out there and have these big giant Al minute games. And we never saw Tatum playing small ball center. We never saw Brissette as a small ball center, right? We didn't really see that much Tillman. And in general, like, I think teams are going to try to go small

against the Celtics if they're going to play Horford because they feel like, you know, they'll try to go up and down on him and just put him in the same stuff you saw on Wednesday. And I don't know what he has against Brissette. I don't really understand it. Obviously, we're not there at the practices, but I have liked some of the Brissette stuff. And I think it's worth, in a Cleveland series that you know you're going to win, can we see a quarter of it just to see what it looks like? What happens if the Celtics go small? What does that look like? Celtics didn't do enough of what does this look like in that they just kind of

tried to stay with whatever their system was. I didn't agree with it because I think, I think they're going to get into a other team trying to go small against some situation this round and next round. I agree with you, but I'd still imagine like the Pacers default is going to be Turner and Siakam and then going like do we have an advantage there on the glass

with some of that stuff if you're keeping those two big guys and Prazingis isn't back yet but then I think about it on the other side like the Pacers defensive options on the perimeter Halliburton's not good McConnell is a terror but he's small Nembhard's

you know a big effort guy, but when I start looking at the size difference compared to what you had with the Knicks, that might be your game on wake-up call of like, oh, wait, all these guys aren't just 6'4 and under. Well, and they're not going to be able to pressure them 94 feet the same way

because the Celtics have all these different dudes. I mean, if they see Jalen Brown, definitely pressure him. But Tatum, Holiday, White, Pritchard, it's just going to be a lot easier. The Knicks are basically like Brunson or Buss bringing the ball up. Anytime anyone, even when Alec Perks brought the ball up, they're like, oh no. But the Celtics, that's never been a problem for them. They have a lot of people throw at Hal Burton. There's a Neesmith versus the Celtics piece that's going to be fun because he never really got a totally fair chance in Boston.

They never really used him correctly. We used to talk about this on this pod a couple years ago. They just put him in the corner. He clearly was something, but they never tapped into whatever that was. And every time he plays the Celtics, he's a maniac. He could not something, but they never tapped into whatever that was. And every time he plays the Celtics, he's a maniac. He could not be more fired up to guard Tatum and Brown and try to go and hit threes and talk to the crowd. And he just loves it. It's a pretty nice spot. You'll

be happy to know I made a list of the worst teams ever to make a Final Four. I'm not going to say the Pacers are on the list. I'll let you decide. 2021 Hawks. 41-31. Made it to the ECF. Lost to Milwaukee in six. Trae Young, Bogdanovich, Collins, Gallinari, Herter, and Capella.

2018 Celtics. 53-29, lost to Cleveland in seven. That would Kyrie and Hayward get hurt. They still had Tatum and Smart, Horford, Rozier, Jalen, and Morris. The year before, 2017 Celtics, 53-29, swept by Cleveland. That was the Isaiah Thomas season, which hopefully isn't being reenacted as the Brunson one-year season when then all the injuries happen after. Horford Smart, Alenic Crowder, Bradley Jalen. The worst team in the last 20 plus years to make the Eastern Conference Finals, ironically, was the Boston Celtics, who went 49-33 in 2002. They lost to New Jersey. This was, I think you and I met after one of these games.

Pierce Antoine, the Batman Tony Battee, Kenny Anderson, just about washed up, Rodney Rogers and Tony Delk. They averaged 91.3 points a game in the playoffs for Sillow. 91.3. I think the Pacers had that at halftime. Just a couple more for you. 94 Pacers, 47 and 35. Lost to the Knicks in seven.

That was basically Reggie and the Davis brothers and Rick Smiths, but still better than that O2 Celtics team. Pretty Jonathan Bender. Right. 87 Sonics. Now we're really talking. Sweat by the Lakers in the Western Finals. They were 39

and 43 in 1987. Dale Ellis, Tom Chambers, and a young Xavier McDaniel with Nate McMillan and Alton Lister. Somehow they beat Dallas. They upset them in round one in a best-of-five. They lost the first game by 22 and came roaring back, and all their scores just went off.

So that's the worst team since the last 37 years. The 87 Phoenix Suns went 41 and 41, somehow made the West finals, lost the Lakers in six, Walter Davis, Larry Nance, pretty solid. And then the coup de grace, I just did everything since the merger, the 81 Western finals, which featured the 40 and 42 Rockets battling the 40 and 42 Kansas City Kings. The Kings had their best two players were Phil Ford and Otis

Burns on both hurt. Houston was basically Moses and that's it. I think all the games were either taped or not showed. I'm not even sure there's more than one of these games on tape. Houston wins in five, makes the finals, and the Celtics kill them. Out of everything I mentioned, are you willing to put the 47 and 35 Pacers

in the vicinity of the teams I mentioned, or do you think they're a level up? Look, a recent memory here, and I'm trying to remember the 40, because I was like, how many games did Moses play that year? And he actually played in 80 games. Yeah, they were just bad. Yeah.

I thought that 17 team for the Celtics, this Pacers team is way better than that team. That's how I feel as well. Yeah. Because that was one of those sweeps that it felt like they were going to lose every game by 40 points against the Cavs. Look, I still couldn't believe they beat the Wizards.

Like, that Wizards team, like, that was the first, like, that was the first page of, like, what's up with these guys? Yeah. Like, why are these guys all, like, and I used to watch them, what's up with these guys? Why are these guys all like... And I used to watch them and they always had these guys that were willing to bullshit and get into physical stuff. But it was always at the wrong time.

It's like, hey, I want you to show me this toughness when it matters in a huge possession. And it was never that with them. And considering the guys the Wizards had going up against one pencil it in for 30 score and they lost like i thought that was one of the most embarrassing and the strangest thing is weren't there even interviews from some of the guys in that group that were like we would have beat cleveland that year it's like dude you lost to boston okay and that team they were supposed to repeat like the whole funny thing about the brad stevens thing in the beginning,

it's like, I guess this guy's so good that they're going to win games and we're not actually going to watch them rebuild. So what's going on here? When I think about the Pacers, and even when I think about Brunson this year in comparison to the Isaiah Thomas season, because I brought it up, especially with MVP voting, this Knicks team is better than that team. That was just an incredible year. They shouldn't have beat the Wizards in the second round.

It spoke more to who the Wizards were and then everybody knew like nobody thought they were actually going to compete did you even in your rosiest moment you're like hey no so so happy they made it it was so happy they made the eastern finals and just i think out of all those celtics teams i think the o2 celtics were by far the worst. Because that was just basically them jacking up threes and the league was bad. The league was worse. The league was the year before

the Sixers made it with basically Iverson and just role players. Right. It was a game seven with the Raptors in there. If you look at Philly's path, it's not like they were smashing through everybody. That was one of the weirdest teams constructed ever with the way that they played. And Larry Brown's just like,

look, you can do whatever you want on offense as long as everybody else, the other four guys play defense. Shoot 30 times. Yeah. And this 0-2, the Celtics, they beat that Pistons team that was basically just Jerry Stackhouse

jacking up shots with a bunch of rebounders. And I think John Barry was on that team, but that team was bad too. That would have been even worse than, so I feel like that was probably the nadir. Did Vitaly get hurt too, right before the playoffs about to start? Yeah.

But the 87 Sonics, I wasn't prepared for, um, I mean, that's the worst record that's made the, uh, made the conference finals. Needless to say, they got swept by LA. Uh, the coup de gras though is that 81 Western finals is really great. I don't think that, I think the Pacers are better than every team we just mentioned. Now the 18 Celtics, it's not fair cause they didn't have Kyrie or Hayward,

but, um, the 21 Hawks is probably a decent parallel to them. They went 41 and 31. They had a guard that was a big offensive creator. They had some good role players. They had a certain style and identity. They took Milwaukee to six that year. It wasn't embarrassing.

No, but there's also another factor to that Atlanta run, and that's watching Ben Simmons crumble in real time. In real time, yeah. Right, so when you watch that Sixers series... The Met Gala's Ben Simmons. Yeah, right. Every time you turn in and just go, okay, didn't the Sixers blow three 20-point leads in that series or something ridiculous on top of everything else. So when I look at the Pacers, okay, fine, the health part of it

isn't compelling, but if they had Siakam for the entire year, if Halliburton doesn't have to kind of fight through everything, where clearly he was a different guy with the injuries there. I mean, they won 47 games. They easily would have won 50. This version of this basketball team easily would have won 50 basketball games. So I don't

think they're on this list. Alright, we got to do a Retratables. The Retratables segment brought to you by Workday. Get the whole band together with Workday. Pair finance and HR on one platform for an epic performance with Workday at the core. You'll make confident decisions faster than ever, and you'll drive flawless business and finance operations with an agile platform that constantly evolves to future-proof your organization. Be a finance and HR rockstar. With Workday, visit workday.com to learn more.

I'm shifting us to OKC and Dallas and what Dallas did to get to the final four, which is basically this. They traded Bertans. They got rid of him with the 10th pick for number 12. OKC takes Kaysen Wallace. Dallas gets lively. They use a top 30 pick swap to create enough cap space to pay Grant Williams.

They then use Grant Williams and Rashawn Holmes and Bertans, basically, and a top two protected 27 first and a top two 20, 28 pick and a top 30, I'm sorry, 20, 30 pick swap. And they turned that into Lively, Gafford and PJ Washington. So a lot of assets. And I didn't agree with at least the PJ Washington trade. I like the Gafford trade. I didn't agree with the PJ Washington trade when it happened. A lot of assets for three guys. And then those three guys helped them make the conference finals. So in retrospect, pretty shrewd yeah the lively thing didn't bother me a ton when it was happening no because they got rid of burtons it was smart no but i mean just like i think the nba world got

like really mad about something for like 48 to 72 hours because it was like right up to the very end and i kind of like like when cuban blew up the championship team he's like hey this team isn't really that good it was an awesome season oh you're saying about when they when they tanked yeah yeah i didn't like it i know you didn't like it and a lot of people didn't like it and i'm not necessarily saying like hey that's awesome but it's something where it's like okay fine everybody shoot their arrows nobody's even going to care about this or remember it and then when you see lively running around and playing with the effort that he's playing with and you're like okay well that seems worth it so like oh you guys going to

dump on us for a couple days until you're distracted by something else and no one's going to remember this down the road and we just have a guy who like at his worst is somebody who can switch grows out game so the Gafford thing is funny because I couldn't believe why would Chicago not want to stay in the Gafford business for him? Then that one works and then that pivots back to the OKC conversation that we've had too many times this year.

Save that for after we do retrainables. The Gafford trade was Holmes and a first round pick they got from OKc to give up a 28 pick swap for gafford and that was it and the question wasn't just why didn't okc top that instead of giving them the pick to use it but why didn't like five teams top it why didn't they why didn't anybody value gafford at a pretty good contract for the next couple of years. So you look at everything they

did and the grant thing was a disaster, but they got out of it. I mean, they paid to get out of it, but they got out of it. And they ended up with three guys who came up huge in that OKC series. So that's a good one for the Retradables. Thanks again to Workday for sponsoring this segment. Be a finance and HR rockstar with Workday. To learn more, visit workday.com. As the world's population grows, so does the need for resources like Potash to support sustainable food production. This is why BHP is building

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Please be alert as trains can pass at any time on the tracks. Remember to follow all traffic signals. Be careful along our tracks and only make left turns where it's safe to do so. Be alert, be aware, and stay safe. Okay, OKC Dallas. Let's try to do this in like 15 minutes. Better win for Dallas or worse loss for OKC if you had to start with one of those two?

The win. I'm positive on this one. You know, maybe it's because of OKC's age, and it's certainly just a gut punch there if you had to start with one of those two? The win. I'm positive on this one. You know, maybe it's because of OKC's age and it's certainly just a gut punch there to be in that moment where you're up and then you get the call. But Steve Javie did, I thought, a really good job of explaining

why it's actually still a foul because he had the ball and reset was then going into a shot. Because I think when the ball's hit first and there's contact after, it can be really confusing for all of us. By the way, I hate the rule. I think the rule should be if you hit the ball first and you can punch the and there's contact after, it can be really confusing for all of us at home. By the way, I hate the rule. I think the rule should be if you hit the ball first,

then you can punch the guy in the face after. It's fine. Maybe next year at NBA. I don't know. I felt like he got the ball. Yeah. Stopped it. I don't remember seeing that more than five times in my life.

I like the call because if you're strong enough to hold the ball to stay in a shooting position with it and then you're fouled after, then you fouled me on the shot attempt. So, like, what are we doing? And then PJ steps up and then obviously I think you had to challenge it. I think you had to, even though that cost him

the time out with two seconds left. And now all of a sudden you're like, okay, great. And then PJ misses the free throw. So everything was really smart there by Dallas at the end end i just think it's so huge for dallas you know because of you know hey is this kairi thing really going to work out i also think there is a kairi conversation that we would have had had they lost this series um that it's like hey awesome quotes but can you shoot more or can you not take off the first 24 minutes every night like it's some cool calculated thing. Because I don't really understand that.

But, you know, once he turned it on again, he was really good. But he was taking 11 shots a game going into game six. So I think collectively for me, Bill, I didn't watch that game last night going, oh my God, the Thunder have to be kicking their asses. Because there were so many moments where you could see why they were losing. I just think it's a huge positive for dallas for figuring out the pieces around luca the pj part of it the gaffer part of it the lively part of it and then kairi feeling like part of it yeah right but then just shit the kairi stuff is like for a season here man for a season

this has gone about as smooth as it's gone in years with him. So I thought it was just, it was well-deserved. Well, like we said, the retradables, they went all in on this. You know, they either don't have picks from 27 to 30 or they're at the worst part of a pick swap. They went in on Kyrie, which I don't think anybody else in the league

was like lining up to pay him. And they clearly were like, we have this window with Luca and we can't fuck around and we got to do everything possible. They identified the PJ Washington piece that he was going to come in and be the guy that he's been, which I just, I didn't see it. I didn't. Well, no one saw him averaging like 20 plus. No, but I'm, but just like being this super comfortable corner three rebounder, defender,

tough guy, not caring if he was going to score selfless piece of a team. Didn't see it. I saw the gaffer that made sense to me. Um, lively being that good as a rookie, especially in a big game where he was dominant down the stretch. They had Rosillo.

The last two games, they were plus 29 rebounding. But in the second halves of the last two games, they out-rebounded OKC 50-28. And there's some OKC stuff. We have to go in there with that. But they had 16 rebounds in the fourth quarter of game six. And OKC, I felt the whole series. I was like, I don't think Dallas' defense is that unbelievable. I think OKC's missing shots they've made all year.

OKC scored on eight of their last 11 possessions in game six. And Shea hit some fucking nutcrunch shots. They still lost. They lost because they couldn't get rebounds. But Lively and Gafford were 20-17 in game five and a 22 and 22 in game six. Chet and the other Jalen Williams had 10 rebounds total in the last two games. And one sequence when it was 105-101, offensive rebound, Bubba misses the second free throw. They get another offensive rebound in the three and it was just like they just couldn't get rebounds. And Dallas was better and I thought

for the fact that Luka wasn't 100% and they were still able to do what they did, I thought it was a really impressive win by them. I was not a big believer in the Dallas team, but they, they certainly earned the respect of like, Hey man, we don't know who's we're taping this before Denver,

Minnesota, but they at least earned the respect of they're not going to be afraid of the next series and the next series would be a battle. Right? Yeah. That's how I, I feel about it now. Cause I just felt like there were so many times over the course of the

series where I just be watching and kind of go go to my default like who's having an easier time just real simple question I ask myself whenever I'm watching a game it's like who's having an easier time easier shots easier pace whole thing and it felt like SGA's just having to put the cape on all the time because all these guys around them fall apart can't hit a shot in game five. And, you know, an offense that was off the charts in the regular season. You know, it's the second best offense. You can argue it's the best shooting offense, depending on what you want to look at. But we knew the rebounding numbers were really, really bad. And, you know, getting to the trade part of it and all the stuff that we've talked about,

like we don't know who was actually available. And, you know, people can look at the press the resume now it's like okay so i get it but you think he's bad you think he's bad at his job of course not i don't think anybody that's being reasonable would say he's bad at his job and we did the trade deadline show right before the super bowl and we led with mcdonough and talking about how how wily the knicks were you know so that's that's how bad the trade deadline was because mcdonough and talking about how how wily the knicks were you know so that's that's how bad the trade deadline was because mcdonough was the headliner unless you want to argue that the thunder should have added somebody like a i was upset about okc yeah you weren't and i i think it

was a glaring problem and considering all the assets and then when you factor in the dallas part of like helping facilitate that, that's the part where it looks really arrogant and seems to be a problem. I wonder, they clearly need an on-ball guy. They need a third guy beyond Williams who, for his first playoff run, it's not shocking that he had some games where he had nothing there and just seemed to not be locked in. But they actually need another guy. And I wonder if they thought Hayward was going to be that but they he was unplayable i mean if dante xm and gordon

hayward played one-on-one whoever had next would die because no one would shoot now you just be at the park and you're like what happened like oh he had next with hayward and x-men he just died because the weird thing is there's so many swingmen available they had all these assets the trade was basically so so the OKC trades, they traded 12 to Dallas for 10 in Bertons. And Bertons was clearly a trade contract.

Then they traded Bertons, Meechich, and Trey Mann. They turned that into Hayward. But then they gave Dallas... Get off the Meechich number two because now they're 30 plus in cap space. Yeah, but don't you think

they could have given one of their 700 firsts or seconds to a team that take Mijic and just kind of like, I don't feel like they had to do the Hayward trade to get rid of Mijic. I don't get that. You of course, I just feel like if they put maybe, they made like 7 million a year. It's not like he was at 40.

But I can just imagine Presti going, I don't want to have to pay some tax to move off of something. I wondered if they thought they'd get something from Hayward. But when you watched his minutes, you were like... I think they did. Yeah, he was... This guy doesn't want to play right now. Everyone in Charlotte was like, this guy's...

He's washed. We were so psyched we got anything for him. The Dallas thing, the irony of Dallas just not having a first to trade for Gafford. OKC helping them out for this pick swap four years from now, and then Gafford ends up killing them. Also, what's Washington doing in that trade? Washington ended up with the 29th pick in the draft, this year's draft that is the worst draft in 11 years. Why not just keep Gafford?

I didn't understand that at all. But I went back. I was looking at all the OKC picks. They have the 12th pick this year from Houston. They have all their own firsts through the decade, through 2030. They have a bunch of 25 stuff. They can swap for the best Eclipse or Houston. They can also swap for a Philly top or Houston. They can also swap for affiliate top

six protected. They have Miami's top 14 protected 26. They have Houston top four. They have a Clippers pick swap in 27. They have the Dallas pick swap. They have so much stuff. I just find it really hard to accept that they didn't, they just felt like, Oh no, this will be a learning experience this year. We're happy to be here. It's, we can't believe this young team of upstarts made round two because Priscilla, they're fucking in this spot when the KD era, they did the exact same thing where they didn't, they didn't try to upgrade the team in that 2011 to 14 stretch other than the Jeff Green Perkins trade, which was like a lateral trade of younger guys. But they never, they kind of sat on their lead with the thing. They were like,

we just want to be good every year. And I don't think you can have that mentality. Like, I really feel like they were one guy away from at least beating Dallas. They were a guy short. Okay. But does that mean you think they should have gone in for OG? You know, should they have gone in for Siakam? Because once Toronto kind of pulled the plug on it earlier, and I don't know if that caught some franchises by surprise because the scattering of Toronto has always been like, they flirt with you, they flirt with you, they flirt with you, and then they never want to do anything. And then maybe they felt a little burnt on the Van Vliet thing where it's like, well, we can't have this happen again. We have two guys going to free agency and not getting any

assets. And Toronto's like, all right, let's just pull the plug. And Toronto wanted players, which I think OKC had to pick, so I don't know if that works as well. But Siakam is somebody they had the assets to get. Yeah, it's kind of back to the original thing of who do

you want, but who's available? And my guess is that Presti just looked around and was like well all these guys that are available like it's not we're pretty good or whatever but then it just looks brutal it looks brutal when you look at the rebounding numbers it looks brutal and jaylen williams is your only other big option to not have like a third guy who's just big who at least allowed you if they had gotten through this to go like what the hell were they going to do against minnesota minnesota wins tonight what were they going to do against denver i mean can you imagine yokich against chet

seven games chet looked like he was 180 pounds by the end of round two we all love chet we love chet but when you watch him closely around the rim especially like over the course of the game in a series it's like it's like run blocking you know like hey how come they're doing this or how come they're running this play and it's're running this play? And it's like, because this is going to these guys are paying a price now, a bill that's going to come due in the fourth quarter. And we need to keep running the football. We need to keep doing this. I always feel like whenever you're watching Chet around the rim, you just see him this toll that he has paid to the first two hours of the game. Right. Where it's asking him to do a lot as a rookie with his frame. It was nuts. We agree. But if you flip Gafford, if Gafford is on OKC in this series instead of Dallas,

that's a what if for me. If I'm an OKC fan, I'm thinking about that all summer. It's like, why the fuck didn't we get Gafford? Instead, we helped Dallas get Gafford. They beat us. It's a rough one. I have this whole thing I did that I'm not going to do in the pod. I went through every OKC the last

seven years at Durant. Presti just doesn't make trades, is the reality. It's very rare for him. He made that Perkins trade. He made the James Harden trade. The Harden trade, remember, too, is that ownership. It's a financial thing. That was an actual, he made the James Harden trade. But the Harden trade, remember too, is that ownership. It was a financial thing.

But I'm just saying that was an actual trade he made. Right. They screwed that up though because they could have just wrote it out for another year. Considering what they got back for Harden. They absolutely blew it. Right. None of us thought Harden was going to end up becoming a guy who won MVPs. I didn't.

But it was a dumb trade. Right. They should have just paid Harden. It still was a really stupid trade because you just go to ownership and go, hey, I know what you don't want to do, but we just pay them and we'll figure it out later.

Okay, we'll figure it out later because ultimately they were going to have to like, I don't know, man. That whole thing. But to me, it's like the Mookie Betts trade where they liked what they got. That was part of the trade. They're like, well, we'll price Harden stats

with Kevin Martin. We have this project with Jeremyeremy lamb we're going to get this awesome pick which turned out to be stephen adams right and they were like we're going to be at least the same if we do this trade that was the piece they missed they tried i remember that too daryl towards uh he told zach lowe it's like well we told them we wouldn't have done this deal a year from now it's like oh yeah no way yeah right. We definitely would turn that James Harden. In 2015, they traded a first for Dion Waiters. They traded Perk and Reggie Jackson and a first for Enos Cantor and DJ Augustine. And then in February, 2016, they traded Augustine and Steve Novak for Randy Foy. Those were all the trades Presti made during the last seven years Durant

was on the team. So he's just, he's a little more hesitant. What's interesting though, the summer of 2016 before Durant left, that was when he traded a Baca to Orlando for Oladipo and the rights to Sabonis, which was a fucking awesome trade. And I do wonder like if Katie, if there's no Golden State cap spike and Katie just signs a one-year deal to stay there in 2017 and they would have had Oladipo and Sabonis and Steven Adams and Cantor and Russ again. And maybe like that team, there's another sliding doors where that team might have been the best team in the league, but we'll never know. Yeah, that's the thing is that you're saying Presti won't do it, but we'll never know. Yeah. That's the thing is that you're saying Presti won't do it, but they don't have these moments of boldness.

But why didn't he have the moment of boldness this year? He should have learned from the past. It's like, he traded. I have Gildress Alexander. He's the top four guy in the league. When he did the Oladipo deal for Paul George, people were like,

okay, but you know, what are you going to do? But then you don't realize like Paul George, people were like, okay, but what are you going to do? But then you don't realize like Paul George, if you throw him a party on the night of free agency that he feels like he has to go to and he signs with him, then he's going to lead. Can I give you one other thing from the series that I thought, because it was like, man, Jones and Washington played really well, right?

Then you look at the stats. P.J. Washington in the first four games, 87 points, 19 for 37, three-point field goal. The last two games, Derek Jones had 41 points and was seven for 11 from three. These guys, Derek Jones is a career 31% three-point shooter. P.J. Washington's a career 32% three-point shooter. So if you're Dallas, you're like, man, if we could just hit on two of these,

on this wing position, just one guy a game can come through. Just one. Axum, like whoever it is, just please, can one guy come through? Just DJ and PJ, if you just take their best games for the six games, they were 21.3 points a game, 53% from three.

And that and the rebound swung the series for them. And there's one other thing, because we should have talked about him sooner. You know, 64-48, OKC had a ton of momentum. Luka just, some of the shots he makes that are sometimes bad threes. Sometimes they're like, he's rolling into the lane like Jokic, but he seems to, he always has a sense of timing for this game slipping away. I need to do something. And he did that. I thought over and over again in

the, in the, especially game six, just has a sense of like, they need me right now. I'm going to do it. And that's why he's so dangerous in this next round. He has two playoff runs now of experience, especially on the road where he knows like, it doesn't matter where we play. I'm not going to be afraid. I'll know where to get my spot. So we'll see what happens with Denver, Minnesota tonight.

But I certainly, two weeks ago versus now, I feel differently about this Dallas team. Yeah, and I think Luca looked better as the series went along you figure the three-point shooting had to get better I also I don't know when I did the numbers it might have been after game five where I was like okay well wait like what's what's going on is Luca getting deep enough you know like there's so many times you look at him where you just feel like he can get really deep and then he's just working.

And he can do the step back. He can do some kind of up and under. He can throw it. He can skip it or he can throw it to his corner. And I don't know that I was seeing that from him enough. And look, I think Oklahoma City did some really good things defensively. But once he knew Dort had five and they tried to

get a couple of case on Wallace possessions against him, it was just like, okay. Luka, I think he's the second best player in the world and it's kind of what you'd expect from him in closing this thing out. I feel like with Dallas

here now, I can't wait to see what happens. I cannot wait to see what happens tonight. Like this series hasn't been close, but it's so much fun. But we're due for, we're due for a close one. Yeah. Yeah. The, uh, and then you mentioned this earlier, but if you're okay, see, you leave that series and it's devastating, but you feel better about SGA is like a real guy, especially, uh, those last couple of games where, you know, you go sideways unless he's like,

oh, I'm a top five guy in the world too. I'll match these baskets. It's gonna be interesting to see him in the Olympics because he, to me, now has the gravitas to be in any situation against any team and know he can get to the spot. I thought he got to the spots he wanted the whole series and his team just wasn't consistently good enough

around him. They never really figured out their five either. Because if they need a little more scoring, it was Isaiah Joe. If they wanted a little more defense, they would put somebody else in. And I thought they... It's weird to say this, but I thought they missed Giddey's rebounding. I know Giddey was kind of a... had become a sunk cost

to them to some degree. But Giddey was like a... He's like a seven rebounds a game guy. And I wonder, did they handle that one correctly where they basically lost confidence in him and vice versa midway through the series? They were scrambling. And the problem is the Giddey thing just got worse and worse. And they had talked about how, hey, we're still getting good looks.

And then there was one game. I remember some of the guys are saying like, hey, we still won the giddy minutes or whatever. And you're like, OK, yeah, but like, how does it look? Yeah. And and trying to make SGA try to figure this out with him out there, you know, his game for deal where, you know, they came back in that game, too, where, you know, his game four deal where, you know, they came back in that game too, where, you know, they're down and they outscored him 35, 27 SGA goes for 34. He hit 10 of 14 mid ranges,

which is the most in a playoff game since Chris Paul did it five years ago. So there were just these things that SGA was doing weren't in agreement because like moving forward was like, all right, you know, I know they lost in the second round, but like it has nothing to do with him. Just a bunch of guys ended up with the ball in their hands that weren't ready.

And Wallace had hit a couple threes, I think in game four. Game four, yeah. And you were like, okay, well maybe there's something there. And it's like, okay, maybe there also isn't. Right. Maybe he's 20 years old.

Right. And as good as he's been this year, and it looks like Presti hit on another pick. And I can't get past some of the Jalen Williams moments where it's like, dude, and maybe this is just his bad series. Brunson had a bad series early on with the Mavs. I brought up the SGA series with OKC

when Chris Paul was there with Schroeder. And it looked like he wasn't entirely comfortable. And granted, the ball's going to end up in those other guys hands a little bit more and and that's fine but for this series SGA this depth the shooting and this offense around him didn't even look close and I still think it as much as we all like Chet you're not running a play for Chet maybe it's a lob maybe it's him trailing something and hitting a three. I mean, he had the huge free throws and the huge three in that game four. So all of us should feel good about it, but they got to do something.

Because it'll be funny to see what happens this offseason. Well, they're going to trade Giddy. Giddy will be traded. That's the one thing we know. He's getting traded. I saw the mutual interest with Utah thing, which I was just kind of like an awesome wording. Yeah, that's almost like a Mad Libs. Can we mention, I should have mentioned this earlier.

Because if I was an OKC fan, I'd be so mad about the Gafford thing. The other thing I'd be mad about. You're mad about it as a non-fan. I don't even care. Like I literally don't care about OKC. The other thing that would drive me nuts, they played really good defense on Luka on that last play.

They're up one. Luka ends up, can't get the shot he wants, and kind of dribbles over to where P.J. Washington is and just throws it to him and basically fucks him. He's in the corner, right? And then P.J. Washington has to take the game-deciding shot of the game. He didn't even have a point in the first three quarters and takes a shot where SGA is coming at him

and is close enough to him that he can put his hand on the ball and block it and then hit him after. But what a crazy way to lose your season. You did everything right. Even SGA's play, he did that right and then you still lose. That play would drive me nuts.

And so would that four-point sequence with four minutes left. I was just like, oh my God. But Dallas, this is, you know, Dallas over and over again was making the plays. That's why they won the series. All four of their games were pretty close at some point in the last four in at some point in the last 12 10 minutes and they pulled all of them out playoff experience for silo yeah i i gotta tell you man the the fouling on the three-point line with these guys i it was such it was going to be such a tough shot but it's so much to ask a player to just deny their instincts of contesting the shot,

especially when it's a game winner to potentially eliminate you from the playoffs. Like, you know, you're going to, but it's like, make him make it, man. Make him make it. And he still was clean on top. But once Javi explained it, I was like, you know, that actually makes a lot of sense because you shouldn't be able to foul him after he resets with the ball in his hands. But look, six games, it could have been five. If SGA doesn't go crazy in four,

if Chet doesn't hit the corner three, these things have a way of balancing. But over the course of watching these two teams play six times, we did not get a result that wasn't deserving. Dallas was the better team, and I thought their secondary guys were consistently better than OKC's. And they make me, after this series, go, okay, let's see what happens.

I'm with you. The better team won. OKC was freaking close, and they'll think about it all summer. I want to see what they do. They got to figure out, is that Jalen Williams spot a real spot? Is that really going to be our backup center,

rebounder guy, or are we going to try somebody else there? They got to figure out, can we turn Gideon to another wing? And then what do we do with these draft picks? Do we want to really go in on somebody? But it's funny, like I'm frustrated that OKC didn't do enough. And yet Dallas, it's almost seemed reckless how much they did. And that was what paid off.

And it was great. Right. I mean, Dallas was all in. There was, there was no outs with everything they did. If this didn't work now, it's like we made conference finals.

We have a real chance to potentially beat next round. This all worked, but, uh, that's why I got to go for it. Sometimes we're still, if Kawhi's healthy and the Clippers get through them, which is not a

crazy assumption, maybe Dallas still beats them. But how annoying we can all be after the results and be like, dude, and then they move that and then they paid for PJ. You didn't even get out of the first round. But I think they were kind of desperate to prove something here

to Luka and here we are. And they did yeah my last thing pj washington who had really not a ton of opinions on because i wasn't sitting around you know watching the hornets over and over again for the last few years he's just such a fun playoff guy i love when guys turn into playoff guys when you have no idea out of nowhere you know defense is like that too. I think, uh, these guys were in the lights with the pace and the intensity of a game and certain guys,

for some reason, it just make, they make more sense in games like that. He's definitely one for me. And it was not somebody I would have expected, but they saw it. Kudos to them. All right,

we're going to wrap up part one. Thank you to, uh, Steve Cerut and Kyle Creighton. As always, you'll'll eventually be able to watch some of this stuff on YouTube, youtube.com slash at Bill Simmons we're gonna be back after a

hopefully awesome Minnesota-Denver game part two tonight, see you in a little bit we'll see you later On the wayside I don't have On the wayside I don't have