The Bill Simmons Podcast - Part 1: Mitchell’s Magic Trick, Ant Keeps Climbing, and Minnesota Might Have THE LOOK With Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: May 5, 2024

In Part 1 of a two-part podcast, The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss Donovan Mitchell and the Cavaliers eliminating the Magic in Game 7 (1:30), big-picture takeaways for Orlando and Cleveland, a Round 2 Celtics-Cavaliers preview (16:41), Anthony Edwards and the Timberwolves stealing Game 1 vs. the Nuggets in Denver (36:02), and more. Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We did a long K and Polly, me and Sean Fantasy. It's going up Monday night. You'll also be able to watch it on youtube.com slash Bill Simmons, where part one of this podcast, we're doing it live, and people watch it live. Maybe they don't have to listen to this. If you've missed it live, you can listen to this podcast. You go on YouTube and watch it, but that's what we're doing. Part two is going to run much later tonight, midnight, normal time. And we're going to be

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I wish my voice worked. It is 12.52 p.m. Sunday. Just watch the Cleveland Cavaliers outlast the Orlando Magic. We're taping the first part of the BS podcast right now. Ryan Rosillo is here, a.k.a. Red Light Rosillo. We are going to dedicate this episode to Franz Wagner's trade stock, which took a massive hit today, Rosillo. But let's start positive with the Cavs. It got dark there in the second quarter. I was preparing for this pod, and I'm just on trade machine making up Mitchell trades.

I'm looking at the Cavs' salaries. I'm like, would they trade Mitchell and Jared Allen? Is Mobley available? Is Bickerstaff going to get fired at halftime? Fans are booing. It just seemed bleak. And then all of a sudden, near the end of the second quarter, Is Bickerstaff going to get fired at halftime? Fans are booing. It just seemed bleak. And then all of a sudden, near the end of the second quarter,

it started to flip. They're down 10 at halftime. And then second half took over. Did you think that was it for Cleveland at any point during that game? No, not at all. Because I just know Orlando's offense, especially on the road. And really, Paolo was keeping them alive. Not so much with his shot making, but his free throws. So when it was 49-31, look, no matter who it is,

unless it's just a complete mismatch, I feel like even as bad as games get, someone's going to make some kind of push. And this is why you have a Mitchell who, at his best, if he had qualified, I probably would have voted him all NBA this year. And even though I know he's not perfect, he can just take over games with his aggressiveness. And I thought he realized that LaVert finally had a decent game. Strews showed up in the third quarter. And, you know, you're probably trying to figure out if you could trade Garland at some point too. But it was 49-31. And then from that point on, and the final score is different, but it was 99-87 Cleveland, and a 12-point deficit for Orlando seems insurmountable with this offense. Over that time, Cleveland outscored them 68-38. So was there a result from this series

that was actually going to make you feel drastically different about either one of the roster questions? That's a good question, actually, because the result I think here was that they didn't have Jared Allen in this game. And I just kind of like watching the Cavs more when they have one big guy instead of two, which I felt that way. I felt that way when Moby was out there in the season and Jared Allen was the lone big guy. Just seems like when they have more space, they're more interesting. Moby, you know, I think he had five or six

turnovers in this game, but there was some rebounding, shot blocking stuff he did and shot intimidation stuff that I thought was pretty important. I like how he played. He's still a little sloppy. He's still a little clumsy. He's still a little weird around the rim, and he still feels like a little bit of a work in progress.

When you compare him to people like Edwards and Paolo, who are just precociously dominating as alphas in these playoff games, he seems like super young compared to them. But yeah, that was the only result I had was, what do they do with Allen? Because if the Celtics waxed them in round two, does that really change that much for them? I think the Mitchell thing, Mitchell kind of needed those last couple games here. Cause I was, I was looking back, he had 12 playoff games going back from 2022 through game four Orlando where he was 21 a game, 42% field goal. He had four wins. He was four and eight in those games. And then game five, that felt like he got going. I thought that was an important win for them. Cause I really, it really seemed like Orlando was going to steal that game. Game six, he has 50. Today, he was awesome. And I

feel like he's kind of reestablished himself as the asset that I think deep down we all felt like he was, but we hadn't seen it on this stage in a couple of years until this week. I'm pretty sure the league though would look at him and go, okay, he's available and he wants to resign with us. Like we'll take him, which I think was the debate about the New York decision and the Cleveland decision at the time. We sit around and we talk about these teams and we critique them for some of the trades. It's like, well, what are we supposed to do? Wait for the first team all-NBA guy? We're supposed to wait to be a perfect fit for him. So if Cleveland had been balanced, it would have been more disappointing because it's the two years with the Mitchell Garland thing that I still think has questions. You're absolutely right about the Allen-Mobley part, but to not have Allen as a possibility when he's 17 and 14 in the series isn't a good

thing, but it makes it... Granted, he's not playing, so that means Mobley's going to be split with these guys, but it just was going to feel more disappointing if Cleveland lost Game 7 at home, but it just was going to feel more disappointing if Cleveland lost game seven at home. But we're going to be asking the same stuff if they get smoked by Boston.

So whatever you think you were going to ask today if they lost, if they don't beat Boston and if it's a quick series, we're just going to delay the questions we were asking today. And as far as Orlando, if they had gotten this one, it's like, okay, Paolo, check. Man, Franz, he needs to be a better two option. They need shooting. Maybe they need playmaking.

They were going to need those things even if it was a competitive second round. So sometimes the distance in the playoffs, I think, tricks us into talking about teams differently. When I was just watching this one, I was like, every single concern I've had about either one of these teams is just evident. And then some team's going to win it. Yeah, that's a good point. I think the one difference though, is if Orlando loses, they were playing with house money. It's a game seven. They had a lot of young

guys in this series, like Suggs and Franz, I think were three for 25 at one point. And Garland on the other end wasn't playing well either. These game sevens, national TV, when the crowd gets nervous, it's just a different energy and atmosphere. We've both been to game sevens. I've been to a lot of them. And it just feels different from the moment you're in the building. I think where the stakes were higher for Cleveland was the way that second quarter was going when the crowd was booming. And it just was like, man, if they like lose by 20 at home in a game seven, what happens to this team? It felt like Bickerstaff's out probably the next day. Mitchell trade, the trade start immediately. And then it's like, do we just keep two of Garland,

Mobley, Allen? What do we do? It just, it felt like an explosion for about 10, 15 minutes there. Part of the problem for Orlando is Paolo was putting up site. Did you see him at the end when they showed him that closeup? He was like, there's different levels of tired. He was, I'm going to puke tired. Like they were showing him. He looked like when I, you know, that stupid MTV challenge show that I watched when they're pushing the guys too far and they just bend over and start puking. And it was like,

is Powell just going to start throwing up on the court? That's how tired he was, but he was getting no help. So anyway, I thought it was a really dangerous half hour there for Cleveland that they fought off. Now, if they get swept by Boston, all the same questions get asked, but I don't think at the same level of intensity, right? No, because that one, clearly they're not expected to win, even though I thought the series was going to be pretty close.

And you're right. If Cleveland doesn't get game seven at home with this group for the second year, because last year was a disappointment against New York. So yeah, it means more to them, the outcome to go ahead and get this win. But on the Orlando side of this, and you're always bringing this up and there's just constant

reminders. And I don't know if it's game seven. I don't know if it's being young in the first time through, but Franz and Suggs ended up three of 28 in this one. I didn't know it got worse. I saw the three and 25. Jesus. Three and 28? Three for 28. Franz won a 15. 0-5 from three. And I brought this up a couple weeks ago where when we really liked Franz, it was like, where's the hole in his game? The best version of it was, okay, he can put it on the floor.

He's got all the size. He's a good defender. And he can shoot it. And when. He's got all the size. He's a good defender and he can shoot it. And when you look at his college stats, like even if the scouting report on him was that you didn't have to respect the shot enough, there was still enough of a percentage there where you felt like it was going to develop into something on top of his free throw shooting, which is what scouts always look at. Like, okay, maybe if I don't love the three point numbers, I don't love the way the shot always looks like there's something to work there. And it became evident. There was just a lot of times in these games where franz didn't even trust

himself they even brought it up in the broadcast where he said to them i think it was with salters where he's like i know i'm a better shooter than this it's like well you've got to have to fight through that doubt because then he starts getting a little clunky with it and he's kind of just fine like he's going to the hoop but you could see he was just really really struggling with it so then you go okay Suggs isn't making shots he's not making shots but Suggs wasn't afraid to shoot which was the difference Franz had a couple possessions you could just see it especially if you've ever played basketball you can see it in somebody's demeanor it's like oh that guy doesn't want to shoot. And he just did it. And Cleveland started

sagging off him. And he was like, oh, fuck, I still don't want to shoot. Hey, does anybody want to come over and set a screen for me so I can try to get to the basket? It was pretty brutal. Yeah. So I'm not sure how Orlando could ever win this game. If you're like, okay, this is what the second and third options, they're going to shoot three at 28. No, there was a way for them to win though, Rosillo. It was with defense. I think they win a rock fight, which is like if you were going to pick Orlando in this game,

the over-under I think got to 195. It went up after Jared Allen went out. Orlando was like plus four. And if you're going to pick Orlando, it is like a 78 to 73 final or an 88 to 81. It's one of those type of games, right? The problem for them is Mitchell got going and then Struis out of nowhere became Miami Struis again for like five minutes. And he hit those three threes, hit 33 points in the third quarter, you know, and that, that was what swung the game. But I think, I think there was a recipe for

Orlando to win where it was just ugly. And Paolo was getting in the line over and over again. Mitchell was three for 13 in the first half. And it felt like he just couldn't get it going. And then that meant nobody on Cleveland was going to get it going. But then he got it going. But this is why you pay Mitchell. This is why there'll still be demand for Mitchell. Because in the gossipy world of the NBA, there's not anyone that I've talked to that thinks that he would actually tell them, hey, I'm going to sign here. So all of this may be delaying the stuff that we talked about at the NBA. There's not anyone that I've talked to that thinks that he would actually tell them, hey, I'm going to sign here. So all of this may be delaying the stuff that we talked about at the beginning, but as imperfect as you can argue Mitchell can be, I've talked about the downside of him being a little peak Westbrook lightish where he'll just go like, I got to do this all

on my own. Well, sometimes you need that, especially when there's nothing from Garland. Levert hadn't been good until this game. I mean, Garland, if they lose this one, then it turns into like a bad Garland summer. So, you know, who knows? Although he had a really important stretch there late where he got to steal on Suggs after the inbound when the game still felt like it was in play. He then hits a shot, then gets a rebound. So, you know, I'm reaching for like Pete Garland. He was playing hard. Can I make a Garland defense for five seconds? I like Garland, so go ahead.

I like him a lot. And that broken jaw thing is like not a small thing if you're a basketball player and you're coming back from like a real injury to your face and you're a guard. And I just think it fucks with your head a little bit. Like I was looking at his stats like two years ago he was basically 22 and 9 before the Mitchell trade right and then

it's gone backwards now he's like a 17 and 6 guy but I I'm still I don't have questions about him yet I didn't I didn't love how he played today but I also think he had a really weird season um the Mitchell one shot less too I mean mean he was taking even less shots in the series so i think that's gonna happen a lot yeah once mitchell decides okay i think the only thing like we need eight superman minutes and mitchell even with the flaws is capable of doing that in a way that's just not a long list of players in the league well a couple of things helped Mitchell in this game. I don't think Suggs was the Suggs from the regular season really since he got hurt earlier in the year. And that's not an excuse for Orlando because Mitchell made some great shots, but I just, I watched Suggs this year and he was

a better defender than he was, especially in this game. And they just, every time they, there was a break, he was limping around. It seemed like he had like five different injuries. And I just think he was really banged up. The other thing was, I thought Mosley really helped Cleveland with not using Isaac enough. I didn't understand the Isaac use at all. He put him on Mitchell for two possessions. I think at the start of the fourth quarter. And I was like, here we go. Where the fuck was this all game? And the first time they got him in a pick and Mitchell was able to get by whoever the switch was. And the second time he took like a bad 28 footer over him.

But Isaac was doing that Bill Russell time machine thing. And I was like, this is how they get back in it. Just put Isaac on Mitchell for five minutes here. And then mostly took him out. Mostly I thought was all over the map in this game. He played 10 guys. I just, in a game seven, I, he might be the first guy that played 10 guys in a game seven in 20 years. I'd love to see the stats on that. His rotations were all over the place. Franz didn't have it at all. And he just kind of kept putting the offense in his hands. I just didn't understand

the coaching. The second unit was so good a few games ago where I thought it like changed the game for them. I think that was game four. And maybe there's part of it where he felt like, okay, that was worth it. Maybe he's afraid of putting Isaac straight up on Mitchell and then they just screen him and now Isaac's away from everything. And I'm just, I'm just trying to figure it out. In 50, I'm trying to think here, the last 50, 61 minutes,

Isaac made four shots. So for an offense... Right, you can't have him and Franz out there at the same time. Right. With Suggs also missing everything. But maybe the way to do it was just like, we're just going to try to stop you on defense every time, and let's have the

final score of this game be 70, like a 2004 playoff game. The final score will be 74 to 71 and we're going to contest and switch on everything. This is why you have game seven at home because I think if game seven is in Orlando, I think Orlando wins. So, the regular

season still matters, Priscilla. Still matters. Okoro, too, by the way, with his assignment on Paolo, I thought just worked his ass off. Did a good job. And as much as we all love Paolo, I think there are times where he can kind of get himself stuck because he's so big he can pass out of any.

Yeah. Like when he picks up his dribble, it's like, okay, well, I can still maybe hit a turnaround. I can still pass out of this. I can see over the top of everybody. But that's kind of what you hope he's going to do. Like, all right, stop yourself, stop your own momentum, and then be 10 feet away

and then not really know what you're going to... And there's so many Paolo turnarounds where I'm like, oh, that's probably not the shot you want. And then it goes in that it's hard to get on him too too much but I can't even really even be critical of him despite the overall shooting numbers for tonight because it's like well he was the only one doing anything for such large chunks of this game yeah you needed the one irrational confidence they even needed like the Max Drew's three threes in five minutes guy. And they just, that guy was not on their bench. Let's,

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All right, so Orlando, big picture. Hey, man, seven game series. We were leading at halftime, feeling great. We're a young team. We have cap space. This is a positive year for us. Don't get too shaken by that. The negatives,

Franz is just not with the offensive game he has now, and he's been in the league now a couple years. I don't think you can comfortably say if we're a title team, he can be the second best guy. Not positive he could be the third best guy.

So to me, he's in like where Michael Porter Jr. is on Denver, where you can't be the first or second best guy. And maybe you can't even be the third best guy. But if you're the fourth best guy, that's awesome. And maybe that's who he is. The only thing that would change that is if he shoots a million, kajillion threes this summer and at least fixes that a little. But this was all year.

He couldn't make a three all year. And I'm starting to wonder maybe that's who this is, a really good slasher guy who teams are going to leave open. I don't understand it because, as we said in the beginning with his college stats, I went back and looked at some of the stuff. I'm like, it's actually higher than you would think. He was 35. He was 36. He was 28% from three this year. But after the All-Star break, it just fell off.

He was just under 19% after 25 games. There's no way. And some of those were open. I just can't fathom that that's who he's there's there's no way and some of those were open i just can't fathom that that's who he's going to be this whole time so the whole first second third clearly he's not a first they won 47 games this year so before we start predicting like hey can they be in the short list of four or five teams that win a title they're not there i still feel really good about what they've done and that they have somebody in palo has a chance to be one of those players so maybe in comparison like some of these other teams, you could argue they were even ahead of

schedule. If you were them, I mean, Mitchell, now he just beat them, but Mitchell could be one of the guys who's on the market this summer. If he's like, I'm not extending, he's got a year left on his deal. And then teams will be lining up and everybody seems to think he wants to go to New York. Miami's always looming, but it does feel like Orlando is a possibility for them. There's the Paul George free agent signing possibility. And then there's the Hail Mary of Booker saying, this Sun situation sucks. Get me out of here, which I think is unrealistic. What kind of player would you want for them? Who are you looking for? Who's on your Christmas

list for them? It has to be... It's funny because I actually think two Warriors would fit the bill here. Where you go, all right, well, could Chris Paul play 20 minutes and unclog some of these? Because what I don't want them to do is I don't want them to bring in somebody

so ball dominant that then it takes away from some of Paolo's possessions. It gets, it's one of the hardest things with all these talented players and be like who overlaps and then who compliments with their skillset or really even their mindset of how they want to attack the game. So I think they need some kind of guard that's a little bit more deferential that could still shoot. But you know,

I don't know what people think of Chris Paul now at this point. And I don't know if this team would be good enough for him to sign on for less money. And that's why I still think Clay is going to make a lot of money somewhere. And because on top of everything else, he's a great teammate. He's a good dude. And I think despite the Sacramento game and the play in elimination, he salvaged himself somewhat this season from the lows of him you know almost having these open therapy sessions with the media after the game which

is not surprising for somebody like him and his stature to go through everything he went through so i mean we could sit here and say paul george and maybe you know i don't know what brandon ingram's availability is going to be but it has to be shooting i don't think makes sense for this team no not at all but i'm just for names i mean there are other names because i thought the same thing i was like ah ingram franz is there something there and then it's like well why would new orleans want to turn ingram into franz and well they might yeah really i don't i think you're being a little hard like if this is who you think franz is going to be then i can't win the argument i just don't think he has

the same i don't think he has the same stock that Ingram has. Uh, Oh yeah. So Rudy points out that, you know, they have the ability to do the Van Vliet contract with somebody where it's like, Whoa, right. Two for 80. And we've been talking about Malik Monk to the magic for two months here. And that's the kind of guy they needed in this series. They, you know, are like a Tyler hero who I think I realized during the Celtics series, his destiny is probably he's like White Lou Williams, right? He's like this awesome six-man score guy, but not somebody who's going to be one of your three best guys. But they need like a monk, like a hero, somebody who can come in, run the offense, take some shots,

be a heat check guy. And those guys are out there. There's a few of those in the league. I feel like they could get one of those dudes. It was the thing their roster was missing this year. Paul George, I said this on Thursday's pod. I went to the Wednesday Clipper Mavs game. You were there too. And they do the starting lineups and they were like,

it is 14th year from whatever, Paul George. And I'm like, whoa, it's going to be year 15 for him next year? And he's got a metal rod in his leg and it's like, here's 200 million, Paul George. And I'm like, whoa, it's going to be year 15 for him next year. And, and, and he's got a metal rod in his leg. And it's like, here's 200 million, Paul George. It's like, do you feel great about that? Cause I'm not positive. I do, especially if you're Orlando and you have some of the injury history they've had over the years with rich, with rich superstars that they've signed. Um, so I don't know. I don't know what the answer is but maybe when palos 21 maybe they're

maybe it's not like a rush you know maybe this is baby steps they don't have to make their version of the mitchell trade or the gobert trade take your time i was wondering you know if this is bad again i think we probably ask a lot of these same questions depending on how far cleveland goes but like if you were new or, but see any, any Mitchell trade for Mitchell, I had, I had it written down. I think it's the most logical non big city team for him. The next thing doesn't make any sense anymore. And unless he just goes, Hey, force me to Brooklyn. And that's the only place I really want to go. And then he controls the transaction more than the teams do. But I can't

imagine it's a real long list of teams where you'd be like, yeah, I'll go see how it is in New Orleans and I'll sign an extension there. I thought David Griffin was really revealing and interesting during that. That was pretty rare because a lot of teams, I mean, the whole model is set up for all of these players to feel like failures and all these front offices to go like, I guess we didn't really do it. But, you know, part of part of what he was talking about where he's like, hey, for a certain stretch, we had the best net rating. And like, I was like, come on, like, yeah, because I think you can take these snapshots of seasons where you can talk yourself into your team being like at this level that it's not really at. And this year is incredibly frustrating because of the way Zion goes out in that playing game against the Lakers. But then for him to say, like,

I think we've seen this group enough that we can't come back. And then you're like, oh, okay. All right. Well, because we agree. We agree. Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was very honest and revealing once he kind of built to the point of, you know, saying the stuff that they did well and that he was proud of. Cause I think there's a version of that Pelicans thing where ends a little bit better. If they had had Zion to close, I wouldn't have picked him against OKC even with healthy Zion,

but that feels like the team, but it's never been a destination. It's never, he's ever gone, Hey, I want to go there. Yeah. And especially you're signing up for a basketball situation.

Cause I assume Ingram would have to be in that trade. It may be even McCollum with Mitchell and picks. And now your, your future is tied to whether Zion decides whether he wants to be in shape or not. But the problem for Mitchell is I, you know, he wants to be in New York and I just don't see how Brunson and Mitchell makes sense. I've argued with Nick fan friends about,

we're already talking about Mitchell trades. Meanwhile, he had 89 points in a game six and a game seven. And you know, you could have made jokes about his suitcases were packed at halftime. He was ready to go, but he, he really wanted to win that game. And I thought like, even that the stuff they showed on the sidelines with him trying to get Garland going, like that was some of the best leader stuff I've seen from him in a game. Like he really took that game on, didn't want the season to end. So that made me think like, well, maybe Cleveland is the best situation for him. He goes to Brooklyn. Who's he playing with? I mean, Bridges has to be in that trade. So now it's just, hey,

it's Donovan Mitchell and a bunch of ninth men. He goes to the Knicks with what's happened with Brunson. I don't know if I messed with the Brunson thing. Here's another ball-dominant guy. You just compared Mitchell in an unironic way to there's a little Westbrook in him, which I didn't disagree with. I don't know how you put that with Brunson. So then you start thinking about Miami. You start thinking about Lakers. What if LeBron's draft Bronny? I want to come home. But New Orleans from a basketball sense might make the second most sense. I thinkveland makes the most basketball sense for him yeah um that's if you're i'm just not sure as much as i like both of them

whenever i was watching atlanta this year i'd be like man it just feels like trey and dejante don't really play basketball together. They stagger their minutes, and when they do play the game together, it feels just very taking turns-ish. It doesn't really feel like they're ever playing ball together. And I think it's been a little bit better at times with Garland and Mitchell, but it kind of gets back to the original point of what I would want Orlando to have, and that's somebody that's complementary to Paolo and not somebody that's overlapping.

It would be two guys, right? Not just one. No, but I mean, just like in Mitchell and Garland, you go, okay, cool. I have two guys. You can shoot two guys who can handle two guys who can play make and two guys that can drive and get to the hoop, especially with Mitchell. Like that's, that's his greatest skill of like, I really, really need to get to the hoop and some of these stretches. And we saw that so much in the last two games from him, which is just really special to be able to do that in the playoffs and we've seen him do it before but then i look at brunson and i'm telling you like i love this next team this is one of my favorite teams in years but then i'm i'm honest with myself and go okay but like what do you actually think they're capable of well you know, the Cav that makes sense on that team

is actually Jared Allen. If you're going to pick a Cav that could make everything that we like about this Knicks team better, you'd take Jared Allen. I think Jared Allen works on a ton of different teams, and I'm sure Cav fans are losing it right now as they just won game seven, and we're talking about potential trades.

We've traded nine Cavs. Maybe just the rules are we shouldn't be doing this. i think it speaks more to the brunson point and all the mitchell rumors and like how important today was but again may have just delayed all this stuff that we're doing anyway i don't want to mess with brunson but i also don't know if you can survive through say three playoff rounds with that being your offense and him taking like 30 shots a game. It's awesome. But can you actually do that? I don't know.

The history doesn't tell you this works. Well, we're about to find out over the next two rounds. I had a thing written down. It's a borderline. I'd tell Kyle to turn the TikTok camera on, but we have the YouTube camera on. Who is Boston rooting for in that game?

Probably Cleveland. I think so too, which is weird because they proved they were better than Orlando. But I think if the goal is like, don't put a lot of miles on us in round two, um, don't just get in a weird basketball situation that's unconventional. Orlando is kind of a funky matchup for them. A lot of defenders to throw at different guys

in the Celts to kind of get in their heads to muck it up. I didn't want a muck it up series for them in round two. I want them to keep the flow they have. In Cleveland, they'll have a better flow. Mitchell will win one game. But Boston, you know, they should have swept the series with them this year except for the Dean Wade game. Dean Wade came in, left his body. Hopefully, I don't know if he's coming back for round two.

Maybe I'd be a little more nervous. But I felt the same way. I was like, I'm actually a little more nervous of Orlando in this next round than Cleveland. Does that sound insane though? You think people are listening to this going, that's nuts. Cleveland just won the series. Mitchell is the best player on either team. Wait, you think Mitchell's better than, well, better than anyone in this series,

not better than Boston. Better than Palo. Yeah, no, I'm talking about Mitchell versus Palo. Just double checking. That's what I thought because halfway through I was like, I think he meant this series. It's just the length. It's just I thought. Yeah. Because halfway through, I was like, I think he meant this series. It's just the length. It's just the length defensive thing. I think sometimes defense with Boston, they can get into some bad habits offensively. Right.

And Orlando could muck that up. With that said, after watching Mosley play 10 guys and then put Jonathan Isaac on ice in the fourth quarter, now retroactively, I'm like, oh, I wish we got in Orlando. That been I wish we I wish we had gone against watching Franz go one for 25 and it gave seven Orlando probably would have been a better pick I don't think it's a

definitive answer they're gonna be they should be able to like if they're this good and as good as they looked through the four games against Miami like that's that series ended up playing out the way that it should have with the one blip historic three point shooting game yeah where it's not like it went six tough games you're like what the hell are they doing this again right they killed them

four times and then lost a random game right they should still be dramatically better than either of the two teams that played today some of the stuff teams that played today. Some of the stuff Mitchell was doing in this game, I was trying to think of other guards and bounce off dudes. And just constantly guys are sprawling backwards. And you're like, was that an offensive foul? What happened on that? And they'll show the replay. I was like, I mean, it feels like he just muscled that guy backwards and then just gets this weird layup.

I don't think I've seen a lot of guards in my life that have some of the moves that he has. And it's weird. It comes and goes because sometimes he seems super happy to just take 25 footers and not play that way. And then other times when he plays that way, it's like, oh, shit. How do you stop this? I think you stop it with length, which is why I wanted them to put Isaac on him. But who else is like him to you? Darren Williams used to be just really good at creating all sides. Like he used to have this

crossover that was nasty, but then he also would just go right at you, like get his shoulder into your chest and he would create, now look, I think Mitchell's probably a little quicker than Darren Williams is, but peak Darren Williams. I mean, probably argues even better than Mitchell. He was just so nasty and he was so physical, even though you thought of him probably more as a prototypical, not prototypical, games. You've got a little bit of a playoff resume. It's not like amazing for Mitchell as far as the lack of distance that he's gone with other teams that he's been with. But just seeing like, hey, you know what's screwing us up on offense is when we wait around, when we let Orlando get settled again off the first thing that we're doing. And that was maybe part of the Boston answer where it's like when Boston gets a little clogged, they can just kind of stand there. And then it's like, okay, but you're making it easier for the defense. And Mitchell, it felt like the light went off with him.

It was like, stop waiting. Stop waiting. It's like, as soon as you come off the screen, go. As soon as you have the ball, go. As soon as somebody thinks they're coming up, make a decision there. And some of these guys that are so good in the regular season, it almost takes them a bit of a wake-up call, being like, oh, I guess I can't just screw around and wait to do something offensively

because they're right on top of me. Well, I thought that was Minnesota yesterday to some degree. They were playing with a pace. I can't wait to talk about that series. For the Celtics to win this series the way that they should, I think they're going to need

Tatum and Brown to guard Mitchell. Because he, you know, people haven't seen the Celtics that much. Like, oh, they'll just put White and Drew on Mitchell.

And it's actually not what they do sometimes. Sometimes they like to throw the forwards with Link at the guard. And then they use the guards, like to either guard three-point shooters

and help off. And it would be interesting if Tatum was like, and then they use the guards like to either guard three-point shooters and help off. It would be interesting if Tatum was like, let me take Mitchell out this series. I don't think he would do it because I think he'd want to match. There's some ego stuff like, no, I'll match him on our end. But I like sometimes,

and they've done this a few times this season, when Tatum's like, let me take that guy out. We have enough offense. I'll be the one that guards him. And Jalen will do the same thing every once in a while. They have so many guys to throw at him that it's going to have to be somebody else, I think, that chips in with the Cavs. It can't be like tonight. Garland's going to have to show up, or Mobley's going to have to start putting together the 2015s or Struis is going to have to

hit more threes. Struis, a semi-Boston killer. I'm not giving him total Boston killer status, but he had a couple moments against them. I don't blame you forever being horrified by everybody that was involved with that team last year, but that's the advantage Boston should have with a team that feels like there's the one guy unless Garland gets the shooting going again. And he just needs to be more aggressive shooting. I think he's good enough to be better than he was this past season or series, I should say. But if you're trying to just screen into Horford all the time, like the two people are just going to stay with Mitchell constantly because if Allen isn't back, like Allen provides maybe a little bit more spacing than Mobley does. And I know that doesn't

necessarily sound right because Mobley's still supposedly going to shoot from the outside. But you would just leave whoever the big guy is setting that screen. You're probably not going to close. You're going to go,

you're going to say, go ahead. Like make your first three shots and we're going to do it a fourth time and ignore you. Right. Feel free to make 16, 20 footers in this game. What do you think the line of the series is on Fandle?

Celtics Cavs. Boston minus 500. Boston minus 1600. The Cavs are plus 820 underdogs. This is without Porzingis. Celtics in four is plus 185. Celtics in five is plus 175. Celtics in six is plus 470.

The last time the Cavs won a playoff series was 2018. Game seven. The weekend of bricks. Rockets, Warriors, and Cavs-Celtics game sevens when they combined for 275 mysteries between the two teams.

Just a parade, a barrage of bricks. So now it's back, Cleveland and Boston. We'll see how that goes. Let's take one more break for the podcast. Then we'll come back on YouTube and we'll talk about our guy, Anthony Edwards. So Minnesota-Denver. I was looking up.

Actually, where do you want to start with Minnesota-Denver? I'll let you lead. Because I know that level of basketball yesterday was. And I saw you last night because we went to go see Shane Gillis. But we were both on a high after game one in Minnesota-Denver. Just about as good of a playoff basketball game one as you're going to get in a series. Yeah. I almost said no to Gillis just because I was like, can I emotionally pivot that quickly after? I was kind of thinking about where i would be

during the day and i was like well this i cannot believe this is a second round series i can't believe we're this lucky uh i think i would start with the defense kind of like what we talked about there a little bit in the beginning and it's a lot of like where phoenix is like are you serious like booker with jayden mcdaniel's going like our waitDaniels going like, wait, this is what we're going to do. Like, I'm not even at half court yet and I'm worried about getting it over. And you saw that with Murray and Murray had another slow start. Although, you know, that wasn't the biggest problem when they were up 18, four, I'm like, okay, well, Denver isn't going to get it run off the floor. And that wasn't the case. And the cat stretch, the Nas stretch,, there's a lot of really good things in there.

I think the alarming thing if you were Denver and you watched the film from it is you're like, man, they got good looks the whole time. And Denver did not. Denver worked really hard. My biggest fear for Denver in this series, and I'm rooting for Denver because I just like Jokic and I like Denver and I like when teams try to go back to back. But I'm also rooting for Minnesota because I have a pretty large Celtics-Timberwolves finals bet

that's 16 to one. So I was kind of like back and forth. Couldn't decide where I was going. But the thing that alarmed me for Denver was I was like, man, there's a recipe where they're just throwing these big guys at Jokic and they're just making him work the whole game. And it's just two and a half hours of just not fun to be Jokic in this game. There's that.

But then there's like the McDaniels, Edwards, just them taking turns on Murray and just making his life miserable. And if those two things are happening simultaneously, what else is going on for Denver? And that entire game one was just, if Minnesota's going to play defense like this, and then they're getting the ant piece on the other end, and he's going to be able to rise to that level offensively,

Denver can't beat them. The question is, can he do that again? Is that who he is, or did he have a really good game? Because if he's there or close, Minnesota is going to win the series. I picked Minnesota. It was a coin toss for me because I didn't really like picking against Denver, especially him having the home court. And when the Gobert Towns things works, it's Gobert just swallowing up Gordon.

And then he's left to roam off of Gordon because if Gordon tries to stretch the floor by standing in the corners, the Go-Bear's just not going to pay attention to him. Yeah. But then you have the town's foul piece where, I mean, you had a tweet on this the other week, and I don't know that it got enough credit. His foul habits are atrocious.

Yeah. And he just decides to get these awful... He had two in like a minute when he came back in yesterday we were like do you not want to play today i actually was wondering if if mike nori who was in for finch but i'm sure it's really finch's call because he's sitting there right on the bench but when naz was so good i was like do you actually go back to towns because we talked about this last night they put towns in with like two minutes left and it was like we kind of know we're going to win the game.

Why do you think they did that? Because they didn't want it to be a story after the game that Towns was benched for the last seven minutes. There's no other reason. Nas was the second best guy they had in the second half of that game. You're not taking him out. They had to take it out for,

you could lose Towns potentially if you're just sitting him for the last seven, eight minutes. That was why they did it. I think you're right. So if Towns gets in a foul trouble, then I'd think like, okay, so that means Rudy has to play Jokic straight up. And if you look at Jokic when he has just Rudy, he goes right out. He doesn't really have that much fear of him at all. I wouldn't say it's as excited as he gets when Rui was on him in the first round where it was like oh my god oh my god you know give me the ball give me the ball i'm actually not going to pass here he has no concern because i think he always thinks he can get but the problem is if it's towns and then rudy helping off of gordon i mean 11 to 25 and two from nine

from three i mean you'll get shook nine threes in that game because he'll also like have moments where he's like all right i, I got to get going. I didn't start taking tougher shots here. So I don't know that you're going to get that from Jokic again. But you left out the Nas' defense part because that was the other piece of this. That's the point that I'm getting to.

It's like when Towns gets into foul trouble, you start thinking, oh, then it's Rudy straight up on him. It's like, well, yeah, but they have this Nas piece against a Denver team that doesn't have another big they feel good about playing.

Well, and then the other way they were using Nas and I don't, I listen, this, if I ever get hit by a bus and they're like, what are the things you truly cared about? And list like 12 things. I really want one of them to be, if the other team isn't using their point guard to bring up the ball, just pressure them 94 feet. Cause Minnesota went in this game and it's like, Yoko, she's going to bring the ball up. We're going to fucking make them work. Like Nas was picking him up at the top of the three-point line on their side of the court

and just hounding and pushing him. And I thought they did something. I watched a ton of Jokic. That was the first time I've seen a team speed him up where he was playing at a speed that I felt like was 10% faster than maybe he was happy about.

And they managed to do it and they got him where he just I never felt like he was totally in control of the game. His stats were fine. But in terms of like the typical Jokic-Meister thing, now part of it this is why game two is going to be so interesting. You're coming off a Lakers game where,

you know, they just figured out the Lakers and when they really needed a score on them and who to attack and who to get into a switch and all that. And he just figured it out. He controlled the pace. They never pressured him.

So he's going to adjust because he's a genius at basketball. But my big thing for game two is can they speed him up like that again? Have you ever seen him? I don't want to say he was frantic, but he just seemed like a little over-caffeinated. That's not normally what he's like.

I thought there was stuff around the rim where he just wasn't... I expect everything to go in around the rim. Okay, so his touch, it's like he's placing the ball up towards the rim the same way. We're comparing him to the greatest players ever. Right, Okay. So like his touch, it's, it's like he's placing the ball up towards the rim. We're comparing him to the greatest players ever.

Right. Yeah. So I'm not worried about him at all, but I would agree there were certain things throughout the course of the day where like, oh,

that feels a little non-yoke-ish-y. And Porter continues to have these stretches when the offense around him doesn't really have much going on. I mean, he had some stretches during LA where you're like, that was kind of the game. Um, Murray,

he was six of 14. His shooting numbers from three were fine. He's only two or four, but he was below 30% against the Lakers. So I don't know how much of the calf thing is there. Did you, what can I do my percentages on him? Yeah, I love it. 81, 74. 84. That seems high. It felt like 84% healthy to me. But they were clearly trying to put miles on him that whole game. They were like, let's, this guy's not 100%. Let's go, let's go, let's go. McDaniels had some early opportunities offensively where you're like, all right, that's a make or, you know, they're turning the ball over.

And I'm like, this this this score should be bigger like they should have a bigger lead than they have right now because still some of these looks are really good and then you have the ant thing that i can't believe we took this long to get to because it's so much fun the shot making is absurd but pope provides zero resistance to him at all like it's not even close when he has people physically so much bigger than him. Yeah. It's, there's like, I don't know how that's solved unless it's an effort thing, but Pope who we like defensively and you think, Hey,

that's a nice little option to have out there. No, he's a borderline elite defender, I would say. And he was just getting demolished. Demolished. Do you know that? Did you read the backstory on those guys?

Uh, with the Georgia background? Yeah. And like, and like Pope's known him for a while and it's like a big brother to Ant and Ant's like, he's my big brother, but I'm going to fucking destroy him. It's like Ant talks the best

shit of anyone I think we've had in a while. I want to get to some Ant stuff in a second, but what's big picture for this series, Denver was a minus 205 favorite heading into game one. Denver is now a plus 108 favorite, Rosillo. Denver in seven was plus 410 24 hours ago.

Now it's plus 350. A Minnesota sweep is down to plus 550. And the reason I bring this up, I know you just made a face. Well, come on. No, don't give me the come on. I'm just going to... I bring this up, I know, you just made a face. Well, come on. No, don't give me the come on. I'm not saying it to you.

I just want to talk it out for a split second. It's just so disrespectful to even ask this. Go ahead. This is why it's going to be good content. Because I'm going to do a whole thing about the history of Ant and some of the pool that he's swimming in right now. This T-Wolves team, a little similar where this team has the look, and I don't know if it's legitimate or not, but we've seen it a couple of times in the history of the league where it was like the bulls against the Pistons in 91. You're like,

man, they really kind of kicked their ass in game one. What did that mean? Ah, the Pistons will come back. And it's like, ah, they're down. Oh, two. Well, they're going back to Detroit. It'll be fine. Oh shit. Are they going to lose game three? And then all of a sudden it's a sweep, right? Same thing with a Pistons Lakers, which wasn't a sweep in oh four where, you know, I think the Lakers won game one or game two, and then it went to Detroit and it's like, ah, the Lakers will steal game four. And it's like, oh, they're getting their asses kicked. Oh, this series over. Cause the Oh four Pistons had the look. And the other one I was thinking was the 14 Spurs when they split the series, the first two with Miami and it went back to Miami.

And then they killed them in game three. And people are like, oh, Miami, lock it down. They're going to win tonight. And I remember going on TV being like, I think there's a chance like San Antonio might've figured this out. And like the series, this, this, like the Miami is in real trouble here. And Miami, remember they were down 20 points in every one of those games. This might just be, this might just be a great spot for Minnesota is my point. There are historical examples of a team coming off like a long title run and just running into the wrong buzzsaw at the wrong time. That's a wrong matchup for them and they're a little banged up. And I would be afraid of that if I was a Denver fan. I'm still picking Denver to win in seven, but to me, every

possibility is on the board now. 2012 Thunder Lakers is one I thought of. Oh, that's a good one. Yeah. Because I was like, wait, these guys are like giving it to them. They're not even remotely afraid of them at all. Like this isn't supposed to happen this soon. And that group ends up making it to the finals. They lost the first two to San Antonio when I was like, okay, well, they're just not going to be ready enough to beat them. And then they won four straight where all the things I liked about San Antonio, the athleticism of

the Thunder were just overwhelming as that series took its course. That's a really good example. Thank you for helping my theory. I just don't like it. It was the first game. Minnesota hasn't lost a playoff game yet. So I would imagine the vibes.

That's another thing that ties into that theory. Like the bull, the 91 bulls, I think they lost two games and like one of them, it was in overtime. They, if, I mean,

the bigger thing is if Ant's going to look like that, they're going to win the series. And I was trying, I went back, I did a little homework. I went back, you know, he scored 36 in his first playoff game ever. MJ scored

30 plus in his second playoff game ever. Kobe, it wasn't until his 30th playoff game, he was younger, weighed 14th playoff game. He scored 41 in his eighth playoff game ever, which is better than everyone but MJ. His last three games, 39.7 points for a three-game stretch. He's 22 years old.

And you go back, MJ, his three Boston games, he was 23, 43.7. Kobe, when he had that 48-pointer against Sacramento, which is like one of the great YouTube games, that's like, if you're going to make the case for the 2001 Lakers as the best team of all time, like the game four of the Sacramento is like, oh, and Shaq was also on this team.

But he had three in a row and he averaged 43 a game. And Wade was another one where he, you know, he had little stretches like that, Jerry West. But like the stuff Ant's doing right now, historically, it's a different level. It's not just, oh my God. Oh, he, yeah, he looks like MJ. It's like, he's doing stuff that the greatest two guards of all time were doing at this point of their careers when it seemed, it seemed early, but it wasn't. And that's what that, to me, the ceiling is now even higher

because of just what his last three games looked like. The stuff he was doing yesterday to Caldwell Pope was like kind of post baseball MJ stuff and late 2000s Kobe stuff and mid 2000s Wade stuff. Like some sort of combination of all of that where like the young athlete stuff, but also like this wherewithal of how to back somebody down, shoot these beautiful turnarounds. It's fucking crazy. Like for a 22 year old to do that is fucking crazy. And if I'm Denver, I'm terrified right now.

Yeah, that might just be the part of like all of this where when I was trying to figure out, you know, and I changed my mind a bunch leading up to game one. And even though game one played out the way it does, I'm sitting here victory laughing. Like, all right, yep, I picked the Timberwolves because I knew it. But whenever I think about all the different things

that could or couldn't happen in the series, I can't get past the fact, maybe Ant is just as special. I mean, we obviously love him. We've talked him up. It's usually not how this works. There was a number that Goldsberry had the other day, players that have scored 35-plus in three straight playoff games at 22 or younger. It's Kareem, Kobe, LeBron, and Ant. What if this is just the beginning and he gets one of these early? They get out of the West.

He might just be that good and that might be the simple reason. Instead of like, okay, well, it means that they had... All these other parts of it are certainly important if they're going to knock off a team as good as Denver. But there's always like, I'll spend all this time looking at it like, hey, maybe just Ant is that sick. Maybe he's just that sick and it doesn't matter. 28 points or more, 45% field goal or more, and just who's on the list. And it's like all the greatest players. It's Durant's 2012, which by the way was incredible that season, which you mentioned earlier. It's Kobe in 2001.

It's Luka in 22. It's Jerry West of 1962. Kareem's first year. Bob McAdoo. It just goes on and on. And Ant has two because last year he did it too. He's just Michael Jordan, Oscar. Like this is a different pool he's swimming in,

to use the pool analogy again. And the shot looking this good this early. I mean, he was under 30% from three from college. The team wasn't any good so you couldn't i had a hard time with it with him where i was like is he taking bad shots which is part of it like the team wasn't very good but there was just a lot of bad decisions he's really raw he's a super athlete he's got the ball a ton. And you're on like, all right, well, you know, is he going to turn to this? And then he just physically pretty quickly,

you would watch him in the NBA. Like now he's next to NBA guys. You're like, that guy looks like the most impressive person out there of the 10 guys running around. He just looks so athletically easy for him sometimes. That play when he went full court lefty in the fourth quarter, when it seemed like they wanted a foul, but they weren't sure. And Ant just went 94 feet left-handed for a layup. And it just looked like he was a high scorer in an eighth grade basketball game. Like think about what he's shown now is that he can drive at his size and get to the hoop. And then once he's at the rim against traffic, he figures out a way with like a little, nobody's Kyrie's finishing package,

but there's certain things with him where you're like, is he closed off? Does he have an angle? Yeah, he has an angle. He brought it up and under on this one, or he finished left hand on this one. I say, okay, so no one can really stay in front of him. If you stay even with him, he's probably going to be more physical than you. He's going to be quicker. He's going to be stronger. And then he has all of these things that he can do. He can shoot threes. His playmaking this year is incredible. And now if he wants to slow it down in a playoff game and he gets the spacing he wants, he had a play where Jokic was waiting for him in the paint and he may have had Reggie. It might not have been Pope on this one, but you could see the

whole time he was trying to find a way to either bring Jokic further out to him for a pass or if Jokic didn't come completely out to him he was going to turn to his right shoulder and shoot it on the left side and like he was seeing it all happen and you could see the play it was just slow so it wasn't hard to figure out what he was doing but he was waiting for like the perfect positioning of where the defense was at was like well if Jokic stays where he is now like I don't have a passing lane so that means the shot's going to be on me it's a little late in shot clock. Let me turn and go this way. On top of that, then he plays awesome defense.

Awesome defense. There's nothing about him where you're like, we're getting a 27, 28-year-old package for a guy who's 22 years old, and that's not supposed to happen. I was looking back, because I remembered his rookie year. There was a game and you and I had both just randomly watched it and we were texting each other.

It's like, did you see that? Because I went back, I looked at his game log. He was bad for the first two months. Like really, you know, that was the coming out of the COVID season. But his stats are bad. And then there's this game. Let's say it's like two thirds of the season against Phoenix. And it was the Suns team that went to the finals.

And I think this was the game you and I texted about when he had 42. And there was just, it was just something there. And you look at his stats, like he just gets better as that season goes along. And then the last eight games, he's like 27 a game. And he's hitting threes. And just over the course of the year, he's like 27 a game and he's hitting threes. And just over the

course of the year, he jumped. But I remember that Phoenix game being like, there's something unusual about this. And he's since then hit every checkpoint. But then you look at this season, I feel like he's hit checkpoints during this season, even from like, you know, Team USA to the first half of the season to what happened when Towns went out, when he had this extra burden and he was able to deliver to now what he's been doing in the playoffs. It just feels like he's jumped four levels since Team USA. And those Team USA guys immediately were like, this is the best guy on our team. Like we were wondering if he was going to get minutes. And this is like, he's the leader of our team. The other thing I love about him. And it really reminds me of

early LeBron. Cause I thought LeBron was like an unbelievable teammate on those early Cleveland teams, like the 07, 08, 09. He just was, he was so much fun to see in person. He was so happy. He was so inclusive. Like he was just awesome to watch. And Ant has that same quality, I think, where it's just, he's just the hub of all the has that same quality i think where it's just he's just the hub of all the activity and the energy and those guys fucking love him like they're they just are completely in on him for for a cat to be miked up and at that one moment in the game they re-aired the miked up stuff and cats going to him tell him to keep his composure and for ant not to just laugh hysterically in cat's face i was like like, I might vote him for MVP this year.

But think about who we're talking about. All right, let me ask it this way, because I've already kind of alluded to it. Do you have moments where you're like, maybe he is this special that he's going to win this whole thing now? Yeah. I thought of it yesterday.

I watched the second half with Tate and we talked about it and I was just like, Tate George, Tate George, uh, Tate Frazier, the ringer zone. Um,

we, uh, sometimes it happens sooner than you're ready, sooner than you think. And that's one of the great things about all of these guys where we're, we're surprised by the age, but that's really not a good reason to be surprised. You know, like Tiger, it's like, oh, Tiger, it's going to be so much fun to watch him. I'm not

comparing the Tiger, but when Tiger came in, oh, it'll be so cool if he can compete for a major. And then he fucking won the masters right away. You know, this is just how it goes. Sometimes guys just come in and they're fucking awesome. Like Gretzky came into the NHL. He's like, I'm going to take every record. I don't think he's Gretzky, but there, there are people that have come in. LeBron made the finals in 2007 with like a fucking G league team.

You know, like it, I look, I still think that's one of LeBron's greatest accomplishments of his 2011 and 12 that like he took that team to the finals. He was slaying dragons every round. We were like, okay, I guess, I guess they're ready. So, you know, it's the history of this sport that sometimes guys are early instead of late. remember that and then it did happen the next year but i thought that 05 um i thought he was ready to take the title that year and it was the second year in the league and it would have been crazy but it was like all right i guess this is happening um so i think it's a good one way it's

a good one because we usually don't get the early but then i was thinking about and i'm like okay so he's not going to make first team all nba if indeed had been healthy like Embiid MVP Embiid you know Embiid might have won another one uh it's like Ant finished seventh like I don't know where Ant's gonna finish he's not gonna finish in the top top uh top five MVP voting and yet I'll have moments and it's not just because they won game one and I'm not gonna be shocked if Denver comes back and Jokic figure some things out and they're terrific and you know maybe they have to get a little creative with what they want to do with Ant and then if Ant gets bottled up then all of a sudden nobody else is making shots for two quarters straight for Minnesota like I'm

not going to be shocked to see some of that kind of stuff happen but it would be really just beyond unique of Ant arrives Minnesota wins a championship like it's not supposed to happen this way and then all the postseason stuff comes in you go he wasn't even top five in MVP. And then next year, he's going to be the favorite. If those things were to happen. I don't know. Yeah. If Ant wins the title, first of all, if he beats Denver and makes the finals, he becomes the biggest under 30 star in the league. That's just like market down. And he might be getting, maybe even beating Denver might do that. He's leaving Tatum, all those guys in the dust

because he's just different. He's got a charisma to him that casual fans can see. Plus he delivers over and over again. Plus he's so fucking fun to watch. There's a world where they just win the title and he goes to Team USA and you have like,

oh, it's going to be LeBron and Steph and KD's team. How are those guys going to deal with that? Because this, I mean, now we're, I almost feel like I'm going to get hit by lightning, but the Dream Team was like that in 92 where it was like, oh, this is going to be the Bird and Magic and this is going to be the, and then MJ just took it and it became the Michael Jordan Dream Team featuring Larry Bird and Magic Johnson and all these other guys. It's going to be fascinating if he actually wins the title to watch how then

that transpires to the dream team and LeBron being like, I always knew. I knew from the get-go this was going to happen, Fran. I've been telling him. You didn't have him. Obviously, we all agreed on where Jokic is. No one had him ahead of Luka. I don't think anybody had him. Because he wasn't. SGA? SGA had the better year. He wasn't ahead of SGA this year.

But in the playoffs, he's averaging 33 a game and he's fucking demolishing teams. He demolished Phoenix. Like he broke them. And that Denver game was the first time we've seen Denver. The game was tied with seven minutes left and they got out executed and a team had a different energy. But you know, I've been watching hoops long enough that sometimes you can see when a team has the look. And I do think Minnesota has the look. I just don't know if

Edward, it's going to depend on whether Edwards is ready or not to really just start slaying dragons now. But he did it against Phoenix and he did it in game one against Denver. And if I'm Denver and I'm thinking, man, they have all this shit to throw at Jokic, it's going to be really hard for him. They have all this shit to throw at Murray. It's going to be really hard on him. Oh, and we don't really have anybody to stop Edwards if he's feeling it. That becomes pretty hard series. They have a game seven in Denver. They have the pedigree. We've never seen Ant in the situation where now this is really sitting there. Is he going to want it too bad? There's just levels to this that we just haven't seen him in the situation

yet, but it checks a lot of boxes, man. We haven't even mentioned the other side of it of how good Dallas looks now and how great OKC looks in the first round, too. Even if he gets through this, it's assuming a lot, but yeah, whatever. I think it's kind of fun.

Let's say Minnesota beats Denver and OKC beats Dallas. And now we end up with Minnesota, OKC, Edwards versus SGA, Jalen Williams guarding Edwards, size against no size really at all. Can Chet pull people away from the basket? That's actually a really great basketball series from a nerd standpoint. And then you have these two guys who are the best, you know, other than Luca, the best under 30 guys.

But, you know, it's sitting there now for Edwards and the defensive stuff they were doing in that game. Who else has been on that level in this century? Like the 08 Celtics got there.

I feel like the 04 Pistons definitely. That Pistons I feel like. The 04 Pistons definitely. All five guys could play any other position. They were awesome. I think San Antonio has always been really good defensively. I think some of those switchy Golden State teams are really good. I was going to say the lineup of death I felt like could get there and really just get stops for four or five minutes in a row. I just imagine if you're another really good player, whether it was Booker or Murray, they're just, and I know I've already said it,

but you're going like, wait, what? Like this is, and just like, okay, can we just get a screen up here with a guard just so I can get an angle to get the ball half court,

get it set up. And it's like now ants on me. And now, now Alexander Walker is on me. Again, he steps up defensively and then you're like okay finally got past these guys wait what yes it's you know what gobert did in that game yesterday that i've never seen in all the times the two-on-one retreat thing on the gordon pass from

yokich yes yeah has Have you ever seen anyone do that to Jokic before? He was the first guy who guessed it. It was like watching somebody pick off Tom Brady in like 07, just like completely reading

some pass play that had worked a hundred straight times. And some cornerbacks, like I'm going to bait him and then grab it. I couldn't believe he did it. I was,

that was the most shocking moment of the game for me other than the 19 Edwards place. It's so hard because you're sitting there and you're going, all right, I want to come help on the best player in the world. Cat needs my help and I got to do it, but I've got to still pay attention to Gordon. So I'm sure it's been broken up a few times. I don't remember seeing that. I don't think it's the only time. I just, I personally don't remember seeing it. What, uh, what would you do if you're Denver? What would you do with Edwards? Cause I don't think Caldwell Pope, I don't know if he's the guy, if Edwards is feeling it, I think you need a different option. I think you start with Pope, but it feels like that's got to be Gordon.

And one of the things I was crazy about yesterday was Edwards was making mincemeat out of those guys. Like borderline ankle-breaking shit on multiple Denver dudes and just getting whatever shot he wanted. But I think Gordon is probably the answer that needs stops, right? I might not use Gordon in the first quarter on him. Right, I'm saying late. I'm sure Malone would go to it if he feels like it's going to be this bad. I do think there's a pride thing that we always overlook in that if you're Pope and you're watching a film of this stuff,

you're going, all right. I have to step my effort up. Peyton Watson would go out there and lose his mind, but he's just not stout enough for ant because ant is quicker than everybody, but he's also stronger than everybody on these perimeter place. It's, you know, like,

it's like, I'm not saying it's Luca's strength, but imagine like if Luca was also first step quicker than everybody. And it doesn't matter. Luca doesn't need to be quicker than he is now because it works all the time. So there could be some pride from Denver defensively. But even if you were saying,

hey, you're just going to send more help or do all these different things, when he hit that crossover pull up to the right side, there's no scheming against that. Yeah, that's the rep. One thing Denver can do, I think, is when they're bringing the ball up, have Jokic running up near Chris

Finch, throw the ball over his head and just have him crash into Chris Finch again. Maybe they just need to take out Chris Finch one more time. Who's the biggest guy they could send crashing into Chris Finch? I felt bad for that dude, man, sitting on the... But he was there. I mean, he was...

He just can't get up. Like there had to have been three times when he wanted to yell at a ref, right? Yeah. They shim like a bullhorn. Did you hear Barkley, like he hadn't looked at the Denver roster really

in depth, perhaps all year. Oh God. And then all of a sudden, if you've never watched it before, you're going, wait a minute denver only has one big guy that they play right they're never going to play somebody else and then they're like wait deandre jordan's on the team yeah dirt was calling for deandre i think at some point barkley said zeke nausea he's like he's six nine he just just looked at the heights on the roster then goes like, all right, well, he's 6'9". He might be your Finch guy, is what I'm saying.

Oh, you Zeke Nagy. I like that. Well, here's the thing, Russillo. It's really hard to repeat. It's really hard to have everything go right for two straight seasons, regular season playoffs. And I go back to, it's so funny that

this is playing out this way now, that going back to that Friday night, a game we watched, the Wembley game, when he scored 17 points at three minutes, when Devontae Graham, who nobody knew was still in the league, made a couple of big shots in that last minute and it swung the seeds. And Denver went from, they could have been the one seed. They could have played New Orleans with no Zion in round one. They'd be playing Dallas in round two, a team that I think they'd much rather see than this Minnesota team. And that one night might have shifted. And we said it on the podcast that Sunday, wouldn't it be weird if it was one of those years where this random stupid game with these players

that we'll never think of again from this season swung the playoffs? But it's in play. I definitely would have picked him in the opener. I would have picked him against Dallas. And who knows? Could OKC just have so much offense and with all their switchable wings on defense,

would they not get manhandled? Would it be one of those weird bats, like three out of the seven games, the Chet thing wasn't a problem, or four out of the seven, it wasn't a problem, and, you know, whatever, game seven, anything could happen. But the fact that Denver and Minnesota,

they're playing in a second-round matchup. This happens, like, what, like three times to four times a decade where we just get this like it happened that one year with Golden State Houston

I think. 2019 maybe when it was the two best teams and it just randomly was second round. Yeah.

Sometimes it happens and it's weird. I want to save OKC for Dallas for round two. We're going to end the YouTube stream. We're going to end part one of for round two. We're going to end the YouTube stream. We're going to end part one of the BS podcast.

We're going to thank Kyle Creighton and Steve Cerruti for producing. Unless Cerruti, I don't, is Cerruti YouTube capable for this or not? I forgot to bring him in and talk about Orlando. Is he? Oh, he is. All right, Cerruti, you have two minutes. Walk us through your feelings. It just sucks that we had to go up 18.

You know, like, it's just... I was accepting of losing that game. Anybody who asked me before the game, I was like, I don't know, we'll probably lose, man. This is one of those series where every home team's going to win. And then you go up 18, you get your hopes up, and then the end of the second quarter just sucked. Because Kevin Clark and I were texting about it,

because we're like, cool, it was 18, now it's 10, and they're going to go on like a 6-0 run in the third quarter. Then it's going to be a ball game again. I don't have confidence in our offense. That's exactly what happened. Well, I had a chance to hedge at halftime because I had an Orlando series bet at plus 160

for the series. They're up 10 at halftime. It was the easiest hedge possible to just take Cleveland on the points. And I'm with you that the end of the first half looked a little dicey, but I still thought they were going to win. I don't know why. I felt terrible. I was like, oh, their defense

and Garland looks like crap. And I should have known. You kind of shot your wad in that first 15 minutes. Yeah, I mean, the control that Apollo had in the first quarter and a half was for a guy in his wad in that first 15 minutes yeah i mean the control that paulo had in the first you know yeah quarter and a half was for a guy in his second year in his first game seven his first playoff series of his life that's stupid how good he is and i don't want to hear about the efficiency i don't want to hear about the shot selection rossillo touched on earlier he has to

do things that are so bad and dumb because he doesn't have he had nothing else going for him so yeah when he takes those like you know 15 foot fadeaway jumpers that go in a decent amount of the time you know comparatively you know to other guys in the league i'm not even that mad at it it's just the franz question is going to be a weird question i i still have faith in him i don't know maybe he can't be a two maybe he can he shot well every single year of his career and this is the first year he hasn't shot well he's improved but the thing, he's improved everywhere else. He's improved in his two-point shots. He's improved rebounds, assists, everything else,

except for the three-point shooting. So are you going to say that he's just incapable of being a player? I would say no. I think the overreaction this summer is going to be nuts. But he's going to have to play in the Olympics again, so he's not going to get a summer off. Lock him in the gym. Rossello, where does Mo wagner rank on best i just committed

a hard foul and now i'm gonna shit talk the guy a little bit but he's not gonna technical is anyone better in the league than him right now he's up there when they had that jump ball when everybody was freaking out then he got he felt left out so then he just started crushing lavert yeah like he he had lavert it's the first time i'd ever seen a guy try to tell the other guy he couldn't be in the jump circle yeah i was thinking he's like those those guys in pickup who the sorry dude guys who they elbow somebody in the head or they whatever they push you for oh sorry dude he's a sorry dude guy just in the actual nba yeah he doesn't be shitty and he has a huge smile on his face yeah oh man sorry he just has a punch i love

him but he's like was that your tooth yeah oh my bad dude oh yeah i love him but he's i mean i i totally understand why he'd be right then after the game he's always like so you oh no you guys you're in accounting huh you guys doing mostly like he wants to like be friendly with you after he just just beat the shit out of you and you're like i don't i don't want to talk to you for real now yeah i have a torn labrum can you leave me alone yeah do that are there more wagner brothers or is it just him i think that's it i don't know the world to handle more wagner brothers but yeah i think two is probably enough how did you feel about jamal mosley breaking down the 10-man rotation and burying Jonathan Isaac? My only explanation would be, I don't have an explanation for the Isaac thing.

My only explanation for the 10-man rotation is he's just kind of grasping for straws, seeing if anybody can kind of step up here. And I mean, I have an explanation. He made one shot for 20 minutes the last three games. Okay. It's not great. That's fair. Yeah.

Tough for the modern-day Bill Russell. I get it. He shot it way better than I thought he was going to especially in the playoffs um like sometimes he's the he's a big oh no no no yes guy from three and if he could you know he was hitting from from the corners but he almost kind of had like a weird green light where i'm like ah you're kind of feeling yourself too much offensively here my man but i don't know i feel like their roster problems are fixable like at a like we need a Max Truce that's what we need I don't know who that guy is but if we had Max Truce I would feel incredible going into a series

like this Judd Howard hey yeah Judd Howard Isaac said no no yes guy and he's also a oh no guy but that's you know with other stuff can we have your summer wish list

let's hear it let's hear it once and for all give us gold medal guy, but that's with other stuff. Can we have your summer wish list? Let's hear it. Let's hear it once and for all. Give us gold medal, silver medal, and bronze medal for your summer wish list. What's gold medal? I texted you and Kev and said, who do you say no for in the Booker slash Donovan

Mitchell situation? Would you put Franz in that deal? I wouldn't put Suggs in a deal because I think you're right. Something was off with him. I have no worries about Suggs in a playoff series going forward at all. You wouldn't put Suggs in a Booker deal? Well, no. Would you do Franz and Suggs?

And picks? Yeah, just really. What do you do? I guess I would. I'd really not like to. I'd put Franz in the deal. It's not even realistic. So I hate how I'm talking about this. And now everyone's going to get mad at me.

But no, I mean, Booker would be great. It's not going to happen. I'm kind of talked myself out of the Paul George thing. I don't think it fits. It's like another kind of similar wing. I think throw the throw the bag at Malik Monk. That's a great call. What's the deal with Donovan Mitchell?

And otherwise, I think it's just adding shooting. Like, can you just get guys like, could you just get add like two Max Truces, whoever those guys are? I think they'll be okay. And a point guard. We need a point guard for sure. What's the maximum offer for Malik Monk for you?

I don't think there is a maximum offer. Whatever it takes to get it done. So you do like three for 110 for Malik Monk. You do it. Because who else are you signing? You're not signing any other free agents. All you got to do is pay your own guys. I think I agree with Saruti because remember when Van Vliet did it, Rosillo, when they did that

deal and we were like, Jesus. But you know what? It's good to have Fred Van Vliet on your team. We do the ringer 100 and he's like the 65th best player in the league. It's like, all right. He feels like a plug and play guy. He's exactly what they need. A secondary ball hander can knock down some shots.

As you guys talked about, doesn't have to take shots away from Paulo. He's the perfect guy. Yeah, the Houston lesson last summer for me was that I don't know if I'm going to get mad about any free agent contracts with all these teams that are bad that have all this cap space. And look, Orlando's good.

They're not bad. It would have been awesome if ben fleet shot it better uh for them but when we saw those contracts like what are you guys doing and then even the draymond deal and by the way all that all this cap stuff's going up but oh i take clay too by the way speaking of the warriors yeah voting on the ringer top 100 really like changed my perspective on this stuff because it makes you realize in a 30-team league how few impactful guys there are. It's just you're getting into the 80s and you're trying to talk yourself into a manual quickly. Is he number 94?

And you're like, man, this is crazy. I can't get to 100. So yeah, I think it's worth it. All right, Saru, do you seem like you're in decent spirits? Yeah, I'm all right. We'll be good. It's not the other way. If you told me that we would have lost in seven games like this

before the season started, I'd snatch your hand off for that. This is a great season for them. I'm happy. It's all right. Well, I'm glad Mo Wagner, I feel like he would have injured one of the Celtics. It probably worked out the best for me. I'm probably better off playing Cleveland.

All right, we're wrapping up part one of YouTube stream. Thanks to Saruti. Thanks to Kyle Crane. Thanks to Rosillo. We are going to put this podcast up immediately. Then part two, which we're going to tape right now, not on YouTube, is going to go up at midnight tonight. East Coast, thanks for watching and listening. On the wayside On the Bruce and Leveron Sayin'

I don't have To ever forget