The Bill Simmons Podcast - Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Episode Date: February 6, 2025

In Part 1 of our NBA trade deadline special, The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre to break down the early trades of the day and other updates, including De’Andre Hunter to the Cavaliers, Jusuf Nurkic to the Hornets, the new-look Mavericks roster (1:44), Jimmy Butler to the Warriors, the Kyle Kuzma–Khris Middleton trade, the CBA’s impact on NBA trades, the Raptors' trade for Brandon Ingram (22:31), why the Kevin Durant trade fell through, lingering thoughts from the De’Aaron Fox trade, teams that probably should have made a trade, listener questions (55:09), and more! Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre Producer: Kyle Crichton The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and a part two heading into the trade deadline. This is the part one that we started at 145 ET heading into the 75 minutes right up to the trade deadline. We recapped a bunch of stuff that already happened, tried to anticipate stuff. So when you listen to it, keep an ear for that. And then part two is coming a little bit later. That is everything right after 3 p.m.,

the official trade deadline and our final thoughts. Plus, my million dollar picks for the Super Bowl, which we barely talked about this week. Sorry, sometimes basketball wins. I hate to break it to everybody. Anyway, here is me, Rob Mahoney, and Big Wise talking to NBA Trade.Line. Part one, let's go. I don't know what my camera is, but this is the Bill Simmons podcast, YouTube Live, presented

by Nicolai Vultro, Superior Light Beer, the official beer sponsor of the NBA. That's Rob Mahoney. That's Big Wise. So we're about to go live here and a big trade happened. Cleveland gets DeAndre Hunter for Laverte, Niang, two second round picks, second round picks, Giant Commodity Waz, and then two first round swaps, we don't know what they are.

I like this trade more than Rob, because I like DeAndre Hunter, and you're like, go ahead, do your thing. I'm a skeptic, I'm a DeAndre Hunter skeptic. I like players who will, on occasion, pass. DeAndre Hunter doesn't really do that. And now, he's granted, while not passing, had the best season of his career by far. Has scored and shot in a way that he never has before. That's all well and good.

But when I'm imagining the Cleveland free-wheeling offense, I want somebody who's going to move the ball, who knows how to play and flow. And that's not really what DeAndre Hunter does to the point. Is that Laverte though? I mean Laverte's a little ball stopper. This year it has been. He's actually been like a good soldier within that context and I take your point but I think he's actually done a pretty good job of that exact thing this year. Laz, you love the Hawks.

I did. That's one of your surrogate teams. Yeah for sure especially when Jalen Johnson wasn't injured. But Hunter, I think this year has most often looked like the version of him that's been sold to us basically since he's been drafted. Like this big physical guy who is really toolsy, but every now and again will make a shot and even create his own shot, which takes him past the 3 and D sort of element. The D has been hit or miss his whole career. And even his shooting has been sort of hit or miss. But this year he's actually making shots.

And I think 39% from 3. That's what I think attracted him to the Cavaliers. Did you guys see the Cavs out the game the other night? I caught half of them. I did. I think that's the trade for a Celtic series where you're thinking we got to go against Tatum and Brown for two weeks potentially. Yeah. We need a wing with size. We're not totally fired up about this Laverte-Niang situation. Ken Hunter be the guy. And I don't know I like the trade. I don't care about swaps. Cleveland's gonna be good the whole decade. Niang and Laverte, whatever.

Second round picks, whatever. And Hunter's on a great deal. I think he's making like 17. It's not too bad. It's pretty reasonable for a score like that. This is the first year that it's felt like a great deal though. That's the crazy thing. I think anytime you can get somebody under 20, who can play in the last five minutes of a round two playoff game, that's a pretty good deal.

Yeah, I think Hunter's another one of those guys like, like Rui, who looks the part where he's like, oh, he's this big physical guy and we could get him to guard Tatum and Brown, but like in practice, he's just an offensive player. He's never been a defensive force at any point, maybe in moments and possessions at a time. You've been like, wow, if he could just tap into that always. And so that's why I feel like he's available for, you know, a Karras, Laverte and second round picks where famously, you know, great guys get picked. I also like Cleveland going for it a little bit, you know, pushing in,

in a way that there are certain non-negotiables on their roster, like Darius Garland, Jared Allen, those guys are only going to play one position. But otherwise, you want a little lineup flexibility. You want the ability to play, you know Strews here Dean way there or now Deandre Hunter at the three four like there's there's some options for Cleveland I think are pretty appealing not just for a Celtics matchup, but really just getting through the Eastern Conference alive It's risky to make a trade when you're doing really well To just mess with the chemistry and the vibes of what you have

But going back to the Boston thing like I I'm looking at Hunter's last season, because I remember him just playing well against the Celtics, my favorite team. And they had, they played them four times last year in the regular season, and he was good in three of the games. And then they played in the playoffs, I can't remember what he did against the playoffs,

but I don't know. I'm sure they're trying to figure out, Tatum and Brown, I don't know. I'm sure they're, they're trying to figure out Tatum and Brown. That's the mountain who's out there. That's had some success against those guys. And then they're, you know, they're studying these hunter things. I just don't really understand it from a Hawks perspective, like, because they don't, they don't have their first round pick unless it's like, what is it? Like top 10 protected.

Yeah. I think it's the, I think it's the tank in motion now was of course. And I think the tank has been in motion once they decided that like when, when Jalen Johnson got hurt, they really have not been able to function without him for the season. And you know, Hunter's been there for so long, you know, uh, he's been there long enough to get a rookie extension like he's not new.

So in a certain sense, like he's a known commodity for them. So I can understand them being like, look, this thing is run its course. Let's get at least something out of this. And we're not the type of team where we're winning so much and he helps as this sort of ancillary part that will, you know, help us out filling the blanks rotation wise. It's just like, let's get something for him. We're going in this. So I just looked it up.

That picks on protected that disperse. Yeah, the one for 2025. So it's not you can't even call it a tank trade because what are they tanking for to give San Antonio a better pick? And by the way, that pick, the deer and fox thing, the more I think about it, unconscionable that Sacramento doesn't get that pick. But they get two picks and they get this flimsy Charlotte pick that really turns into two seconds. Not real. I'm just not tra- you watched Darren Fox last night.

I'm just not trading him unless I get that Atlanta pick. Especially after Jalen Johnson goes out. It's like that might be, you know, somewhere between seven and ten. You're giving me that pick if I'm trading De'Aaron Fox. Somehow San Antonio keeps it. But that's a team that they just dug themselves out of the absolute Nadira vibes in Sacramento. Like it got so weird and so bad for their season and they finally get this momentum with Doug Christie. They finally have some things with their roster sorted out.

I don't know that it's realistic to expect the Kings to just sit on a couple months of De'Aaron Fox pouting if that's what it would have been. Yeah, and to what end, right? Like I guess, yeah, the Hawks pick is definitely valuable. Like I could see it landing, what are they, probably like in the 10 range or something like that. Which, you know, of course is a valuable pick. But at the same time, when the guy says that he wants to go to San Antonio, San Antonio is clearly positioned to sign the guy outright if and when they need to or have to. And it's like the closer he gets to his free agency, the less valuable he becomes. I do wonder how much leverage they have in a situation to be like, screw that. You're giving me this because the Spurs season was going fine.

Like they could make the argument that like, look, we don't need to bring Fox in right now. We like the way our young guys are coalescing around Wemby. The Chris Paul thing has worked out, knock on what he hasn't even been hurt. And so there's no rush on our end. So they definitely could credibly say we could walk away from the table. But then you see what happened last night and you're like, this is why you get there in Fox. Yeah. You have this guy who's this really special, potentially generational player.

He's in year two. We've seen the timetable of some of these guys goes way faster than we expect. Yeah. Now you have Fox. So Hunter, it was the 2023 playoffs when he played Boston. And he basically put up 17 and 6, 37%. But I always felt like, I'm not saying he shut down Tatum or Brown or anything like that, but I always felt like, you know, he, it's the six, eight guys that are the guys that you want

against us. So from a Cleveland standpoint, I just wonder like what that, if that game changed their mindset at all, but I like, I like the trade for them. Big picture. So Butler happens yesterday, not quite worthy of an emergency trade pot. Who thought about it? It was worthy until Saturday happened. I think without Saturday, we definitely treat it as a monumental trade. Jimmy Butler's teaming up with Steph Curry and Draymond, that whole saga ends. It's a story.

It's a joke to the Warriors season. It's just after the Luke Kudantchik. We're broken, the meter is broken as far as we're very sure. Well, Tuesday night when it seemed like Durant might go to the Warriors and it was a three teamer with Butler going to Phoenix and whatever going to, that was emergency trade worthy. I was ready for that one. Yesterday with Butler after he sulked for four months and didn't want to go to Golden State.

And then it was like, well, can we frame it as it's a two year extension, but it's really a one year extension because he was already in a contract. So he made an extra, I don't know, 61 million bucks, maybe 69 million bucks, whatever it is, to basically torpedo this Miami situation. So that's- Is that worth it? Would you do that for $69 million? whatever it is, to basically torpedo this Miami situation.

Is that worth it? Would you do that for $69 million, Waz? Would you just completely torpedo a situation? Probably yes. He would do it for less. So here's the thing. How about $6.9 million? So here's the thing. The Suns had agreed in principle to give him

two extra years on top of what he already had in the bank. But why? That would be tampering if they did that. What do you mean? Well, all of these reports about tell Golden State no, or tell this person to go away or whatever. It's like holding out hope that Phoenix could somehow, by some miracle, get Bradley Beale

out of there so they could bring Jimmy in and actually give him that extra year. Once that became not a possibility, it's like, all right, cool. We'll settle for Golden State. I want to get the hell out of there so they could bring Jimmy in and actually give him that extra year. Once that became not a possibility, it's like, all right, cool, we'll settle for Golden State. I want to get the hell out of Miami. It's only one year added. My agent's framing it as 120. It's really like 111. But whatever, you know, I think he was just really holding out for that extra year that Phoenix had promised him. Can I give you, can I do a performance theater of how the Miami Phoenix trade talks went? We would love it. Just every couple days?

What about Beal for Butler? No, Durant we would do. Okay, we'll call you back three days later. Hey, Beal maybe for Butler? No, Durant. This is a perverse take on the Julie Delpy before sunrise fake phone call. And I think it just went on and on.

And every time Miami's like, no, Durant. We're not taking Bradley Beal. Nobody wants Bradley Beal. And then they're telling Butler, we're not taking Bradley Beal. And Butler's like, well I'm going to act like even a bigger dick. Like, fine. We can just keep doing this. We're not trading you for Bradley Beal. Bradley Beal. It's just, it's just like at a certain point, Jimmy, it's worth it to

take this to the summer if Bradley Beal who has a no trade clause. Okay. It's not even just like, all right, we get Bradley Beal. And it's like, if something comes up, we could use this guy to move or whatever. He's still a good player. He's not worth the fifth highest salary in the NBA, but he's still somebody who can play, who can help a team. It's not the end of the world.

Bradley Beal, where he gets to dictate terms to the team that he gets traded to. It just makes absolutely no sense. Without the no trade clause, is he more tradable to you? He's gone. He's gone. Like I think it is the signature hangup of it's not just like, oh, could you trade him to Miami or whatnot? It's there would be a taker on the market because you think like you get him this season,

you have next season, you can trade him as an expiring. But with the no trade, you're stuck with him for three years. You literally can't trade him. You honestly cannot. I one of my many hot takes of this two part trade deadline podcast. I think Bradley Beal's playing kind of well for the Suns. Have you watched him lately? Like he's actually playing defense and he's playing hard and seems dedicated. He's been trying.

I just don't want to pay him $50 million. No. It's not like he's a disaster. No, he's still somebody who contributes. And I would say he could contribute to winning. It's just when you're paying somebody like that, you would hope he's like your on ball guy, your shot creator. No, but what do we say when they made the trade?

We were like, this is stupid. This is too much money. Why are you doing this? We said it when Washington gave them the contract in the first place. Why are you doing this? This is too much money. Why'd you put the no trade clause in? This was a comedy of errors.

And now Phoenix, so they made a trade. They did, they finally dumped Nurkic. Congratulations to them. Um, Nurkic, they used one of those three picks they got from that stupid trade they made with the 20 31 first that they gave up that they're in regret and they got back. What was it? One of the Martins. They got back. Yeah. Just moves around every year. Uh, they got back a couple seconds cause everyone loves seconds now. Got to get those seconds.

Get that one in 20 chance you might have gotten a player. It looks good in the tweet. Oh, one in 18 chance. We maybe got a rotation guy. I just have a very bad feeling. We're going to look at the total

math of that breaking up the one pick into three and it's going to be three deals that are basically like this. Like basically use a first to dump Yuseff Nerkach's contract. To dump a dumb decision you made. Yeah, to try to rebate another bad decision. The other ones, we'll see what happens.

Maybe they pull a rabbit out of their hat this summer. Maybe there's even time left for them to figure something out here. I just, I think that was a blunder in itself. The sons are like somebody who remodeled their whole house and then built like a giant movie theater in the house. And then six months later, we're like, why did we do this movie theater?

We should have done, wait, bring the contractor back. We've got to change that. Who was the movie theater in this metaphor? That was the Nerkage, the whatever that complicated Deandre Ayton's trade where they're like, we gotta get out of the Chris Paul business. If we turn him in Deandre Ayton into where they're like we don't we got to get out of the Chris Paul business if we turn him in Deandre Ayton into Nurkic and Beal and we do all these swaps that kill all of our leverage

We'll be fine. And then six months later like oh fuck now What do we do and they're just constantly working on their house and they've just destroyed their house Their house has no value left. I mean they paid 10 million and put in 10 million for a house That's that worth 7 million. Is destruction, you know, a knife seed in the play-in or potentially an 8? Is that destruction? Are we sure anymore that that's where they're going to end up? I think it's striking looking at the rest of the bubble teams, all teams that are making

moves right now. Let's talk about this. Yeah, because this is part of the Butler conversation. Definitely. So if you look at the West, OKC, Memphis, Houston, Denver, and the Lakers, who we're going to talk about. The Lakers are 29 and 19, and I think Arrow pointing up, I think all five of those teams are in the playoffs, right?

So there's one playoff non-play-in spot left. We have the Clippers at 29 and 22. Looking a little creaky. Yeah. Minnesota, 28 and 23. They've little creaky. Yeah. Minnesota 28 and 23. They've looked creaky the whole time. We have four teams with 25 losses. Dallas, Sacramento, Phoenix, Golden State. So now that's 11. And then we have San Antonio 22 and 26 with some good vibes. There's 12 teams that have a chance. Four of those teams

are not going to make the playoffs. And I can stare at that list forever. And's like what would your who would your four be like who's your number one? Would you have San Antonio as your number one pick for not making the playoffs I? I think they might be just just cuz they're a little further behind I mean too far behind with two games back sounds insane, but it's more that there are one last back Yeah, so they went on like a five game winning streak. They'd be in the ballpark. Yes. So that'd be your number- would you agree with that? I would say the Spurs are the first ones out for sure. Okay, so now it gets fun. Who's your number two pick for, sorry the West is too loaded, you're not making the playoffs?

I think it might be the Suns. I think it is too. I think it might be the Suns. I'd probably go Sacramento, but I understand the Sun's skepticism for sure. Well, can I give you the Fandel ads? See, this is cheating. Spurs plus 370 has the highest odds to make the playoffs. So they agree with us on that.

Who do they have second? And say, I've ruined my own draft. I should have looked at this after. Sacramento plus 290. Yeah. Yeah, who do they have second? Man, say I ruined my own draft. I should have looked at the staff there. Sacramento plus 290. Yeah. Sacramento to me is the clear second pick here. I feel like that's a little bit of Zach Levine disrespect. Is it?

I think the Malik monk, Zach Levine subonus thing is going to be pretty decent. They brought in Jonas Valanchunas, which is not nothing. They basically have thrown away the point guard position. But when you watch them, especially in crunch time, it kind of makes sense with Malik running stuff, and it's not that crazy. And then when they did the Valanchunas trade, I was like, what the fuck is that?

That makes no sense to me. You can't play him and Sabonis at the same time. And I was like, wait a second. And I started getting flashbacks to bad FIBA games. And I'm like, oh, those guys were teammates. And I started getting flashbacks to bad FIBA games. And I'm like, oh, those guys were teammates. And then you go read it and those guys are boys. They've figured out how to weirdly

either play with each other or not. And they got them for free. And they just have all these professional veteran basketball players. I would put Phoenix over them. Phoenix is plus 198 on Fandl to make the playoffs. I think the Phoenix thing, like the stuff you hear like through the grapevine about like the locker room. Shocking.

Our guy Coach Bud, maybe a little Donnie Nelson on the Knicks-ish. Where it's just like not working out at all. You're not going to believe this was, but it seems like KD might be on another unhappy team. There's been no track record of that over the years. That's never happened. Literally. You're not going to believe this was, but it seems like KD might be on another unhappy team. There's been no track record of that over the years. That's never happened, literally. Booker looks just miserable at all times. Weird year for him.

And then Beale is getting heckled at home games. So I would have them second and Sacramento third. What do you have? What's your order for the top three? I would say about the same. I want to put this out there not because I want it to happen, but because I fear it could happen. If the Dallas Mavericks do not make the playoffs as a son of Dallas, I would like to be able

to go home again and I fear that the city would be raised to the fucking ground. So Dallas is minus 110 and Golden State is plus 126. And I got to be honest, I would bet on Golden State to make the playoffs over Dallas. I think this Dallas thing could go bad. We haven't had the three week Kyrie injury. I don't trust AD's health. The team's weird. There's big three stuff going on, but Klay's in the big three.

It's like, we're done. 2020 is Klay and the big three is out. And also the fan base is so angry and so hostile and the vibes are just so brutal that I could see it tailspinning. I really could. I think the theory that you replace Lucas production or lack of production because he's not on the floor with AD who's like, you know, played at an all-star starter level damn near the whole year and you become this defensive juggernaut. I think the theory is sound there specifically in the regular season. If they're just like, you know, a really hard nose, like we grind out games defensively team in the regular season that I don't buy it as a as a playoff.

They did get the better Martin brother. Yeah. You know, they got something Martin. They did get the better Martin brother. Yeah They got a little Martin Unfortunately, Boston doesn't play in this conference. So I don't know how good right Martin can be I just think Not what they needed by the way, I just think of motivated Jimmy actually fitting a Golden State need meaning somebody who can do something off the dribble that isn't Steph Curry and You know can play defense even though he's not what he used to be at all. He used to be an ace defender.

He's not that, but he's way more than competent. And just the motivational factor. I think the FU Jimmy factor is going to be at a very high level and Draymond super competitive guy. I understand why the odds are such. Golden State 25 and 24, Dallas 26 and 24. And my guess is you gotta get to maybe 46 wins. To be, it's not just about being one of the six

playoff teams, but you wanna be seven or eight. You don't wanna have to win the two road games in a row. I wanna talk about the Jimmy FU factor. We're gonna take a break for the podcast. Sometimes in basketball, 30 points could be worth more than 30 points. And now you can get a 30% profit boost from the Ringer with Fandul's 30 on 30 during Friday's NBA action. Fandul, the Ringer, teaming up to give you a 30% profit boost when either pick a player

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Restrictions apply including any token expiration and max wager amount. See terms at sportsbook.findo.com. If you have a problem called Win 100 Gamble, visit rg-help.com. So, and I've said this before and I feel really strongly about it. I actually thought that was a great trade for Golden State. I don't think they gave up really anything. I know they loved Andrew Wiggins, but just fundamentally it was an NBA 2K trade

where you're just cheating the system and you're basically just turning Wiggins into Butler. Keeping Kuminga out of this thing. Keeping Kuminga was amazing. The protected pick, whatever. The key to me would be if you're looking at it going, is Butler still good? Can he still be that guy?

Because we didn't see it last year. He kept missing games, missed the playoffs. This year was spotty. And I think I talked about this part on the pod, but like five, six weeks ago, he had a game in Detroit when he was just awesome. And that was, you can go back, you can watch it on League Pass game in Detroit when he was just awesome. And that was, you can go back,

you can watch it on League Pass, that's all you need to see. This was not one of those, oh, Jimmy made some threes and had a good game. Like, he was fucking awesome, he was pissed off, I think he was mad at Miami. I think this was his like trade value audition tape. And he just ran amok in this game.

And I just think that's what he's gonna do in Golden State. I don't know if it's gonna last two months, I don't know if it's going to last two months. I don't know if it's going to last a year and two months. I think two years from now, it could be a catastrophe for them where they're just like, oh my God, we have Draymond and this guy, what the hell? But short term with Curry's window, you got to do it. Two, a couple of things that I love about the deal.

One, it pays deference to the end of the Steph era. So Jimmy's deal basically coincides with, you know, Steph's deal. Two, Jimmy Butler is a maniac. He's going to be extremely motivated and he's an upgrade to what Andrew, you can say whatever you want. He is a clear talent upgrade to Andrew Wiggins sort of sometimes here, sometimes there, whatever. And then third, I like that it just clarifies the Kaminga stuff because with these young guys, we see it all the time when they're in these trade rumors for an entire season.

It's like, all right, that's now been clarified. You're going to be here. This is what the team looks like. Let's go. I'm really high on this for Golden State. Unless Kamiga is traded the next hour. Which he might be. But even preserving him to potentially include him in another deal is important.

And I think the Jimmy Wiggins comp, like Andrew Wiggins has had a perfectly fine season, I don't mean to diminish it, but Jimmy is a totally different level of creator. And most importantly, he is a go-to scorer as we've discussed, but also a point trigger man for a lot of the Steph Curry offball stuff in a way that Wiggins is just not comfortable doing. And so now you have another person who can do that in addition to Draymond, in addition to Pajemski, if

you have him in that role. Like you have someone who can actually make some plays for the way Golden State wants to play. Yeah, there's the crunch time piece, but there's also the every four games. He's just going to be awesome in a game.

Right now, this Warriors team, unless Steph is awesome. You saw last night against Utah. They can just suck for five minutes and all of a sudden blow a game. They've blown a lot of uncharacteristically close games. You know, I'm going to say this, not going to win. I love Steph. He's at a different point of his career. He can still hit the heights, but he can't do it nearly as consistently He can't put a team on his back. No, it's not

2022 final step is not he's at a different point of his career. He just is But I still think he could be a really great piece of a good team with Butler the question for me is That Detroit thing that he did that I saw is is that like a once every two weeks thing? Could he dial that up? Could he carry them? Because they're going to kind of need to jump on his back.

And then when Kaminka comes back, if they keep him, and now they have some scoring off the bench, they have less guys in the team, which I think was a weird thing for them too. They had like 12, 13 guys that needed to play now that they've got the numbers down. But I just thought fundamentally it was an awesome trade. I still don't feel great about it as a basketball fan, but I just think that's...

We just had these moments where this guy who's making 52 and then 52 next year, it's not even the final year of his deal. He has a contract next year with a player option he can opt into. And he's just decided, I don't like my situation anymore. I'm going to torpedo it. next year with a player option he can opt into. And he's just decided, I don't like my situation anymore, I'm going to torpedo it. I really feel like whenever the next CBA comes up, how do they figure out a wrinkle for this?

Because if you're like a Miami fan, you're just going to be like, what the fuck just happened? We just turned Jimmy Butler into Andrew Wiggins. I mean, how do you, it's like if you're playing a game of chicken against a guy who's willing to die, like how do you it's like if you're playing a game of chicken against a guy who's willing to die Like how do you win right? Like I just don't know He's willing to do it so like how do you win versus that and you know, and again I personally wouldn't have carried it the way Jimmy did

The way he's obviously looking at it's like, this is literally his last payday ever in the NBA major payday. And he's looking at it like, I have to do whatever I have to do to make sure I secure that win. And unfortunately, it got ugly. And I can understand feeling entitled. It got...

It was like, got disfigured. Yeah, it was bad. It was like Vanilla Sky Tom Cruiseured. Yeah, it was, it was bad. It was like vanilla Sky Tom Cruise face level. And I've been, I've been carrying Jimmy water just in the sense that he's overachieved. He was an A plus player for Miami for what they did when they got him, what the expectation was and what he actually delivered. And for him to feel like, yo, like, why won't you place faith in me that I'm going to overdeliver again, as I've done my entire tenure year.

So like him being like, yo, this is a slap in the face. That's a tough one to say though when you're just missing games left and right last year. Which I think was Miami's problem. It's like, dude, first of all, you're under contract for this year and next year. And play more. But then Riley did the old guy thing. That was... That's what he does though.

He did it to LeBron. Two days before LeBron left. And LeBron took it personally. I kind of love every time he does it, but the question is do you need an old crazy guy running your basketball franchise? Because he clearly doesn't, he gives no shits anymore. He does not, but it's also not a coincidence

that like every star leaves Miami kind of feeling like this. Yeah. You know, like by the end, it's always ugly. There's no peaceful transitions of power. Even Hassan Whiteside, he's like, I'm fucking, I just wish it ended better. So they also got gold states first, which is top 10 protected for two years in a row and then unprotected. I'm not scared.

I still have staff during that home run. Poor Dennis Schroeder. Can the guy just find a house to live in? Unfortunately, remarks about trade culture. Yeah. Or Dennis Schroeder. Can the guy just find a house to live in? Unfortunate remarks about trade culture. Yeah. Because last time I checked, every professional sport has trades. Oh my god.

But he's kind of stuck in this new role with the apron where if you're over 12.8 million, nobody who's over a certain apron can buy you out. I think it's if you're over any apron at all, first or second, you can't sign a bio-gaff for the mid-level. I thought there was like a 12.8 million level too for like certain. So there's like eight teams he just can't even get bought out and go to. Basically if your contract is just over the non-taxpayer full mid-level, which his is like by a hair, like just barely, then you can't sign over any, sign with any apron

team as a bio-guy. So one thing I didn't get with Miami, I actually there was a world where they just get Wiggins Kyle Anderson and Schroeder for For it feels like they basically just said we don't want we'd rather have cap space But it's telling when a team like the heat who say what you will about their personality management Yeah, they're pretty good talent evaluators and they have just decided Thanks, but no, thanks on Dennis Schroeder. Like that's registers.

Well, I'll just tell you, my dad and I talked last night. Miami just has a slew of guys who killed the Celtics. And Dennis Schroeder kills the Celtics for some reason. Wiggins had a lot of success against them in 22. Kyle Anderson's just weird in general. And we were like, I hope they don't keep all these dudes. Because if we see them in like a 2-7 series you really worried about this version of the Heat? I'm always worried about Miami. I'm always worried about them.

I'm never not worried about the Heat. So right now the Heat are three games out of the fourth seed in the East. Yeah. This is their new rotation. They got Tyler Hero and Terry Rozier more or less running point. Scary Terry. Duncan Robinson they brought in Davion Mitchell from the Raptors. Another guy who I've always kind of liked. I wanted to see him on a decent team. Sure. Andrew Wiggins, of course.

Haywood Highsmith, Jaime Jaquez. Bam's been playing the four with Kaleo Ware. Nikola Jovich. Ware's been good for like a month. It's been quite good. Ware is very good. And Kyle Anderson. Tell me that is not the most Miami Heat-ass team you've ever heard.

Kyle Anderson is one of the most Miami Heat guys There's definitely gonna be an annoying team to play against. I just think this version of Boston is just oh, I'm not worried about them for Boston Yeah, okay that makes two of you. I Don't want to play Miami. They fucking pulled Jedi mind trick shit Boston they definitely have a Nine trick shit against Boston. They definitely have a bunch of solid rotation guys. It's just like who individually are you scared of in a series? Who do you think, what do you think Terry Roger bet on?

Too soon? Come on. He was absolved. Stop it. This segment is sponsored by FanDuel. The Miami has cap space now. They're under the tax. They have a trade exception and maybe they'll do one more thing before the 45 minutes from now deadline.

I don't know, man. The way Hero's playing, BAM's been playing better. Wear out of nowhere. It feels like they have a little bit more of an identity. They have some shooting. We'll see if they can get more from Roger, who's been really bad ever since they made that trade. shooting. We'll see if they can get more from Roger who's been really bad ever since they made that trade. But just as a sneaky, you're down 2-1 in the series against them wondering what happened, I still feel like they're on the radar for me. Nobody else in the East is. That's the only team, once you get past the four seed, that's the only team I'd be like a little worried about in a series.

Do you have anybody else? I think the Bucs are still interesting enough and I think the Magic if they ever get their shit together, are still interesting. Yeah I guess they've got a lot to figure out offensively though. I guess the Bucks. Now that they got Kuzma because he was red hot. I mean he was playing great this season. I'm a Kuzma apology. He was doing great this season. What does the apology sound like these days? I've never seen plus minuses that could get to like minus 59. He hasn't played on an actual NBA team for five years This is year five in NBA, Siberia. He had his choice. That was his choice He had options to leave could have played for competitive teams for example there. Maybe he was looking out for a better championship situation

Um, I just think in 2020 on the Lakers he was the ultimate role guy. Is he really doing this? Yes. 2020. He was the ultimate role guy. Again, the last two good players he played with were Brad Bill and... who? Is this... Bob Carrington? Rob, is this happening right now? Listen, at this point... It's a defensive cow-coosma monologue. Great cutter, not a great shooter, but can make open shots when called upon. Okay? How about terrible shooter? He's shooting like 27% for free this year.

I would say the shot quality has been horrible on a team that's going nowhere. He has shown no professional pride whatsoever this season. He's been actively bad. I just think actively bad. He looks like he is on autopilot. I just think it's different when you play on a team that's actually playing for something. I think he's in the running for worst player of the season. Wow.

Like if we were doing LVP, if you've actually watched Wizards games, I think he's one of the worst players I've seen this season. Can he just flip the switch and put it back? I don't know. I mean, it's hard to be that inefficient, that passive aggressive and that much just straight chilling all the time. Like it's really a rare skill. The Wizards basketball situation is hell.

It's bad. It's hard. Isn't that bad? Like they have a bunch of young guys. They have Jordan Poole playing pretty well this year. I don't know. Is it that bad? You're a veteran on the team. You wanted you didn't want them to trade you last year. They're trying to trade you Dallas. You're like, I want to be here.

So I'll put this like this wouldn't be a problem if what the Bucs weren't giving up is a player who is very important to their team and Chris Middleton who just can't do it at that level that they need him to do anymore move but got bad he's got two bad ankles but what they needed was somebody who could do some Chris Middleton adjacent things and Kyle Kuzma is closer to Torian Prince than he is to Healthy Chris Middleton. That is a big problem. But was there a Chris Middleton-esque guy out there? No, and not in trading Chris in his current form.

But that's the quandary that the Bucks found themselves in. Chris Middleton this year, guys, has been a non-entity. He's been an occasional entity. There was a stretch two weeks ago when he had zero points in two of three games like the goose eggs It was a lot of all but somehow he's shooting like 45 percent from three or some crazy I can play for for these guys next to Yanis or next to Brooke if you need them to and again like I think that Bro, please no guys. No, we're recording this one last thing because I think the cool thing is gonna work When team USA was assembled last summer Kuzma thing is going to work.

When Team USA was assembled last summer, Kuzma, who's like an outspoken tour guy, he's like, yo, these guys are big NBA players and names, but somebody's going to have to fill a role. Somebody's going to have to do these dirty work things. And Devin Booker, like famously said, I will or whatever, quote, whatever. This Kuzma explains to you, like, I understand what it means to be on a team that's trying to do something meaningful. It's five years ago. Dwight Howard was on that team.

Look, for Sean Rondo is on that team. COVID, COVID, it just happened. I think, I think Doc as a coach, Joe Biden was alive, is the kind of guy who will curse you out for not doing the right thing in terms of playing your role. Playing next to Yon. I'll go the other way. I think Doc's going to hate Kyle Kuzma. I think he's going to be like, I can't believe we traded for this guy.

What did my scouts tell me? In three, four weeks when this thing is actually working, we'll come back. So we disagree. You get the tiebreaker vote. It's not going to go well. He's Kyle Kuzma. Wow. Here's the thing.

When you approach a trade of this magnitude, and this is a huge trade for the Bucks, they've been waiting to either trade Chris Middleton or Brooke Lopez for the right move that came along. This is not the right move. I'm going into our YouTube chat. Thanks to everybody who's sending questions. RapStallion says, hey, if it weren't for Kuzma, we might not have the nickname DinShitty.

I forgot about that. I forgot about the Kuzma Dinwitty feud. So people want to know if they can trade Jordan Pool. He's playing pretty well this year. He's also there. I want to say the elder statesman of their rotation right now. So is Jordan Pool an Orlando Magic candidate? I don't think he's an Orlando Magic player personally, but you know Orlando know they were allowed to make trades Well, we're gonna soon find out I think they did the Vucovich trade and they're just like Mike trap

No more trades for us. I did it They probably should be a little bit more desperate and in terms of getting some all a fall in love with their young guys So it's not that surprising that they still think you know All of these guys are gonna come through in a major way their young guys. So it's not that surprising that they still think, you know, all of these guys are going to come through in a major way. Jaylen Suggs going down, I think is just underrated in how- It's really hard to- It turned out he was their MVP. Who knew? I thought it was Palo. Super important to their team.

So with the Milwaukee, uh, that Kuzma trade, which is really a money trade, they have to waste their first run pick they took last year, AJ Johnson, um, got under the apron. Um, which raises the question, why did the CBA suck so much? How did the league just turn into just people trying to get under the apron, make financial moves, save tax money? How did they, I know it's like on the one hand you have the NBA, the owners, Adam Silver, probably the smartest lawyers on the planet. And then on the other side, you have like a couple players, some dude who took the job because they thought it'd be cool to get a picture with LeBron.

And they just, they get worked every time. But this is disgusting. It's two things. It's two things. It's terrible. So nobody's going to convince me that this doesn't cost players money. People say, well, no, the basketball revenue is guaranteed and teams have to spend to a floor and like, cool.

But those are literal facts though. Yeah, no, that's cool. Yeah. But like teams going beyond, above and beyond. Sure, sure. What is called for is more money in the player pool. And now teams will just say, we don't have that option because of these things. And the reason why the players agreed to it is that the new

CBA kicked in and they 2X the money. So when you're making all this money, it's like, why are we going to bat for this? We're richer than we've ever been by two and a half times X. And so that situation converts to let the owners get this. And it's literally so that Joe Laker could forever just be like, you know, he his first five, six years just always spending way over the cap and always going into luxury tax. Now he could go to his fan base without any retribution. Say, guys, second apron out. Yeah, my hands are tied. My hands are tied.

You know, what can a guy do? The owners just literally like, OK, see, it's like, there's an apron. Oh, my goodness. That's the thing. Ultimately, what you're describing is in some way the way the league has been for a long time. It was just they were mostly trying to dodge the tax. Now, even if you are above the tax,

there are more lines to dodge and harsher penalties. I've never seen it be the number one reason for this many trades before. We've always had like financial implications and stuff, but this is different. You have eight, nine, 10 teams that are just like, we're doing this because it gets us under apron one, apron two, apron three.

I also think the fans don't want to take the time to understand it, they don't care, it's confusing, and it turns into this have, have not of basketball conversation. And nobody can explain to me what problem it was solving. What was solved by this in terms of selling it. It seems like they were... So I talked about this.

We talked about this, about the Zach Levine thing. Where it's harder to trade Zach Levine. So Zach Levine then goes, alright, I guess I'll roll my sleeves up and I'm going to have an awesome season for Chicago. It's not like I can go anywhere. But for every Zach Levine, there's been 10 other ways that this went wrong and it just seems like there's more player movement. There's more guys getting bought out.

There's more roster turnover. We had another trade by the way. What do we get? The Clippers have traded Terrence Mann, a beloved Clipper guy forever, who always had the T-man game and Bones Highland, who couldn't have been more available for Bogdan Bogdanovich in three second round picks. Now we're talking.

The Clips needed like a heat checky off the bench kind of guy like this. I was really hoping Denver would get Bogdanovich because he has the Jokic connection. But as you know Denver is not allowed to make trades or spend money. I think they're a zero apron team. Look first week of the season, the Strother talk, even the Christian Brown stuff, I was like Zeke Naji, I was like Zeke Naji made a couple threes the other day and I was like what the hell is going on? I was just like guys, I get it, you love your young guys and whatever.

See if you say this like you're not talking up Julian Strother in the group chat. No, I have to say now. I have the receipts. I'm like damn, I'm like damn, Strother's kind of better than I thought he was. So maybe they will be vindicated, but you're right Bill. I would have loved to see them do something like a bogey thing. I was excited when they were in the Zach Levine sweepstakes allegedly. Like I was happy for that kind of thing.

This happened in the Celtics five years ago where they either have giant contracts or small contracts that no one between and you can't get the 16 to 20 million dollar guy because you literally can't put the contracts together. Bogdanovic and the Clippers. I mean love to pick up for them. It is a buy low thing and we need to acknowledge that Bogie is having the worst season of maybe his entire professional life including pre-NBA just has not had it in the way. It's been an underrated post-Olympics slowdown guy.

Almost everybody. Yeah. To the Olympics has been a little slow, a little step slow this season. It's been a thing for sure. So I would love to see him recapture some parts of his game surrounding him with high, like high leverage defensive personnel with the Clippers. That's a team that is so desperate for shot making, depending on what's going on with Harden, how he's being pressured that night,

where Kawhi is in terms of his health on a day-to-day basis. They need what Bogdanovich can provide. And so if this is the cost, absolutely why not? Can I read you his stats? I'm a little worried to even hear them. 10 points a game. Yeah, the shooting percentages are bad. Well, you know how normally 50-40-90

is the standard for percentages? He's a 37-30-88 guy. Not what you want. 7.6 PER. It's like nearing Bronnie James level of, sorry, Waz. But last year, 17 a game. Yeah. And...

I feel okay being a bogey apologist, not a college football. Yeah, I always feel with him like, first of all, Atlanta could not have been more of a wrong team for him. I don't know if Trey Young is the catalyst for him. I want to see him on a team that's like, you're coming in, you're going to play eight minutes, we're going to run plays for you. Yeah. We're going to run you off picks.

Ultimate green light. Go nuts. Do your thing. And then for the Hawks, Terrence Mann, another long swing guy. There's some Clipper fans in my life who were like, when are they going to unleash this guy? Never really happened. Never really got off the ground. Bones.

Bones? What about him? He is a player in the NBA, that's for sure. He's a player that made a lot more sense 30 years ago. Back when I was just, again, applauding everything the Nuggets did, I just swore Bones was going to be a- He was the truth. A person. But then he failed an IQ test.

He wasn't happy playing with Nikoli Jokic. Which is like the number one IQ test. He was complaining that he wasn't getting enough tic on a team that had Nikoli Jokic. He thought he was better than Jamal Murray. Yeah. Tough. And now he's about to be on his third team. Almost borderline we could replace Deann Waiters and the rewatchables with the bone of Thailand

heat check. It's almost like a personality heat check. All right. So Atlanta... They're really gutting this thing. I guess, you know, it makes sense in the way that the future of their team is more Jaylen Johnson, Zachary Rissachet oriented, right? Like Rissachet.

I think there's something there that works. Do you have to do all of this housekeeping right now? I don't exactly know why it would need to happen right now. Yeah, I get the idea that they're not keeping their pick. It's like, why are you losing and giving them a better pick? It's like, that's gone, it's out the door. We gotta do what's right for our team. For some cost there, I've heard this. Yeah, it's like, we already lost the pick.

What do we care if it's four, 12, 15? I would personally care. I would be like, oh my God. The spite piece. Yeah, you gotta stick it to them. We've seen this happen in the past. Like, I remember the Clippers, that one year when they traded their number one

to get rid of Baron Davis' contract. Yeah, we're just going to eat it. And then it turned into Kyrie Irving. Like you just never know. I just wouldn't want to find out. Speaking of teams that we don't know what the hell they're doing. Toronto traded for Brandon Ingram. What is this?

I did a tweet where I did the power rankings of teams that I don't know what you're doing. And I didn't put Toronto in the top five because I haven't known what they're doing for like over a year. They just every year trade their pick. They get a guy who's kind of likeable. He doesn't seem to make sense with any of the other players they have. And I have no idea why you would trade Bruce Brown, Kelly Olynyk, and a pretty mediocre first. That's Indiana's pick. To then pay Brandon Ingram when you're already overpaying Scotty Barnes, you're overpaying

quickly, RJ Barrett's making a shitload. I just don't understand their team. It's tough. I remember when Masai was, he was like a GM free agent and it was like, is he going to New York? Is he going to this? Right, is he going to New York? Is he going to the next? Uh, and you know, there was rumors that he got equity in the Raptors and all of this stuff and like to use all of that.

Cache and literal equity and goodwill to do this with the Raptors since he resigned with them, it's just so rudderless and directionless. And I get it. Brandon Ingram is a good player. I understand why you would want him on his team, but like, what is the idea or the theory of the Raptors? It's like, I genuinely don't. Like they're a team that wants to play a very loose, freewheeling, like democratic style.

That's not Brandon. That is not how Brandon Ingram plays basketball. If you did want a big forward to put next to Scotty Barnes, why did you trade the better one in Pascal Siakam? And like the Siakam comparison is inevitable because they're giving up that Indiana pick. They're giving up Bruce Brown. They're giving up Kelly Alenek, who I want to say was involved, like tangentially in that deal in a follow up with Utah.

And so now you traded Pascal's Yakam for an expiring Brandon Ingram. Oshia Baji was in that deal who was the pick that became Jacobi Walter. That's your Pascal's Yakam Hall. Why didn't you just keep Pascal's Yakam if that's where you were

going to end up? And Brandon Ingram has been available since June. Like back in the days when we had video stores and you would just stroll by the new release section, you'd be like, huh, domestic disturbance with John Travolta and Vince Vaughn. I don't think so.

And then you'd walk around for 15 more minutes and then you'd pick up the VHS tape again. Ah, Travolta and Vince Vaughn. And then you'd stroll around again. Like that's Brandon Ingram. People were just strolling by the new release aisle for him for nine months. So here's the justification. It's like, you know Brandon Ingram is going to feel a way about New Orleans not paying him

because he feels like he's accomplished stuff there. And there's like a sort of entitlement there. But then you go a whole year and a half, basically, where nobody wants you. I think he comes into that contract negotiation with the Raptors with a little bit more humility. I'm sure that's probably what they're banking on, where he doesn't think he's a five year maximum contract player.

I think it'll probably be a shorter term deal. I would probably be like a three year. But are you telling like, I'm just seeing a future where they pay him upwards of 40 million dollars a season and to do what? He is a dynamic duo. I'm a Scotty Barnes. He doesn't fit with Barnes He's hurt all the time him and RJ they occupy the same area to court He has a top five body of like oh man you're gonna get hurt just when you see him in person He's like he's so skinny. Does his space.

No. Which the Raptors need. He will occasionally talk himself into taking spot up threes. Occasionally. Here's the red flag for me beyond all the other red flags. So you had Golden State, who was definitely strolling around that new release video store over and over again.

Steve Kerr who coached Brandon Ingram on one of those FIBA teams. No shot. And by the end Brandon Ingram was like, he's sick. He can't play in the last two games because he was just out of the rotation. And Golden State who desperately needed anything. And this was like the layup trade of all time. Give up nothing for Brandon Ingram.

They were like, we're good. We're not doing that. Then Miami, they're sitting there too. Hey, we can turn whatever. Maybe we'll take... And Miami is like, we're also good. And then you have Toronto who's like, we don't think we can turn whatever maybe we'll take and Miami's like we're also good. And then you have Toronto who's like, we don't think we can get free agents ever. So this is how we get free agents. And then they talk themselves into it. I don't like it.

I don't like it at all. The talent doesn't fit at all. Um, but you know, again, another lanky range guy who they love, but it's never been, he's never used his tools for good. It's fake size and he doesn't guard. Never like ever and he's a he's ball stopper It's a he absolutely is ball stop. He is would there be a worst team to be like the fifth guy Then this meaning you never get the ball passed to you. It's like you're like the you're the like Agbaji you're like fuck. Oh My god, I'm just gonna be in the corner over here guys. I thought she seems like he has a good head on his shoulders

He seems well, it's not a good year. I was wondering if he was like a like a sneaky trade in my face He lately especially on D like they guarded really well. Well, their fans are frisky. They're they're like always taking everything personally I mean they did win the title and they have a lot to take personally, you know, there's reasons to boo the national right 2019 they won the title. And since then, Masai's just been on a heater. It's like when Obama finished the presidency,

he's like, I'm opening a production company and I'm playing golf. Masai's like, I'm going to trade for Brandon Ingram. Shout out to our colleague Danny Chow, who flagged this is now four consecutive trade deadlines where the Raptors have traded a first for a guy who's about to be a free agent They can't sign a free I guess the Danny Chow like this trade. I can't imagine I can't imagine

Yeah, I'm gonna say Brandon Ingram is not a Danny Chow type of player doesn't strike me as one And then the New Orleans side of that trade just quickly So they're down to as assets just quickly. So they're down to as assets, Trey Murphy, the best player in the team, who I think is their only untouchable. He's been really good. Zion Williamson, Wildcard could get traded next half hour. CJ McCollum, always in trade rumors. Herb Jones, Hawkins, Missy, Alvarado, and De'Jante Murray, who will not be playing for at least a year. Torn Achilles. That's brutal.

And their first round picks are fine but not, they're whatever. Yeah. They used to have like, oh look at all those first round picks, they've kind of taken all of them. But you go back to that AD trade. Dude, I go back to 2019 all the time. Well this, but look at all the people in this trade. De'Andre Hunter, Brandon Ingram, Lonzo Ball, who I think was way more of an asset back then then you know he got hurt Josh Hart

Mo Wagner Come on Wagner was 22 first which became Dyson Daniels The 23 swapped in Nephi and then the 25 first pick it was a lot When you look back at like they did get a lot of players There was a lot when you look back at like they did get a lot of players. Do Lanzo, Josh Hart, Brandon Ingram? Yes, none of them. I just, and I've said this a couple of times. I remember being at Summer League in 2019 after they traded AD, Draft Zion, who looks

like he's going to be the next LeBron James. And I remember seeing Griff at Summer League and there was an aura emanating from him. Everybody wanted to bend this guy's ears. Like, my God, Griff, he's done it. You got Zion and a million picks. They are on their way. They got all these picks and their young guys are cost control and blah and this. And there's so much versatility and oh my New Orleans is it. And what's come of this AD trade?

One frisky Look awesome on paper, but no longer play it Yeah didn't quite work out and the Lonzo thing was the thing that I think hurt them the most because I actually really think Lonzo and We're seeing it like we're seeing this diminished version of Chicago Who's still like a really additive where and he's got an extension to yeah 20 million dollars Which is nice nice little turnaround for him. Yeah, but but going forward, I don't know what this team is. I don't know how long they're gonna be in New Orleans.

I don't know how long Zion's gonna be in the team. I don't know what the plan would be going forward with this roster. And the Murray trade is catastrophic. I would have traded him already. Same. I don't think it's ever happening in New Orleans, so you just have to accept that.

It's like, we all said how Jimmy Butler for Wiggins is a trade that makes no sense on paper, but if you're Miami, you don't have Jimmy Butler anymore. You have the ghost, you have zombie Jimmy Butler who's not an asset. So now you're turning him into a guy who can play defense and rebound and hit some threes. I think that's where you get into really tough places

when you don't actually have the ideal version of the player anymore. And the Pelicans have not had the ideal version of Brandon Ingram for quite some time, mostly because of injury. But they held on to him too long in the same way that the Raptors held on to see how come too long. Like you can see this chain of events of some of these teams that are feeling pinched where they don't move their guys when they need to move them. And then the perils of the max contract error is that when you have your own guy and he's clearly one of your best players,

there's a pressure to pay him a max deal, which he'll be in the same pay grade as guys that are just clearly much better. Bonafide All-Stars and Ingram and even Siakam, like these are high quality players. Are they max players? But the way the system is set up, like you have to pay these guys in accordance to this freaking pay scale. Yeah. Well, think about this. We knew somebody was going to suck in the West heading into the season. We're like, there's just too many good teams. There's too much talent. Who is going to be the out of nowhere, this team sucks team. New Orleans has played 15 games and one 12.

That would not have been on my bingo card. Like they have so much talent. You can feel something stinky maybe with them the way they're hitting the Trey Murphy thing Zion you never know. But this is 12 wins is nuts. We thought they were clearly going to be above playing range. Like they'd be in the six maybe even five. Their overrider was like 45 and a half. Yeah. So it is lower now. Like it is idiots on New Orleans coming into this year.

We are gonna take a break for the podcast. So Phoenix going forward, the Durant piece of the Butler trade, which we did not discuss. What did you think of him being like, I'm shutting this down, I don't want to go to Golden State. If you trade for me, I'm going to be unhappy. Because that's confirmed.

I heard all the same stuff everybody else had. It seemed like on Tuesday that was gonna be a three-way trade. I think it was really close and it basically came down to, are we sure KD is on board with this? And the feedback was he's not, he doesn't down to, are we sure KD is on board with this? And the feedback was he's not. He doesn't wanna go back. So Rob, you're in the Bay. Why didn't you wanna go back?

What was it? I can't imagine a single reason why he might not wanna run back at experience again. Probably a Draymond thing. I could imagine that being a potential holdup. A Steve Kerr piece, the Draymond piece, this'll be bad for my legacy. No. I think him coming back to the Bay,

if there ever was like a full circle moment for that, it would require Kevin Durant to have a dramatic re-imagining of who he is as a player and a person and the way he fits into the basketball universe. And I give Kevin Durant credit for this in a way. Like he has a very firm and fixed understanding of who he is. And it is not the guy who needs to go crawling back to the Warriors to win again.

And that leads you to some places like Phoenix with this particular roster sometimes. But I just, it didn't really fit with the KD that we know that he would want to do something like that. And it doesn't fit because it would have made sense basketball wise, which is just generally not what KD does. He doesn't do the basketball thing except for Golden State. Like, that's been the only time that he put the thing on the floor first. And he didn't really care for the results in terms of his own personal happiness, as he said previously. I went back and looked at his 2019 game log splits because he was really good

to start the year and then after the Draymond thing, I forgot like oh yeah he was like 21 a game 33% from three and then in the playoffs he will impact up and he was awesome but it was damaging for months yeah and I just you know that's what's so funny when you see these stuff now these podcasts and these guys do these fake things together and it's like dream on and Katie no no we're good it's like there's no way they're good. Like, KD's never forgiving whatever happened, whatever was said. And there's that piece, there's probably a Steve Kerr piece, but from a basketball standpoint, if I was him I would have rather been on Golden State. I just, just like it's a no-brainer. I don't want to be in this Phoenix team.

This crazy owner, no picks. It's almost, you fit the thing like a glove. Like, obviously, Katie's good enough to do all the ball movement stuff, but that's not what Golden State would be asking them to do. Yeah, they'd be asking them to be KD again. Just get the ball and cook people and staff and everybody else will work around it. But again, I can understand not want to go back and do the same thing and want to maybe if Phoenix isn't what you ultimately

end up doing in terms of signing an extension with, exploring some different option that makes you a lot happier. And I think Phoenix's whole thing has always been with like trading all these picks and this and the future's done. Like if we want to, we'll do a fire sale for KD and Booker, try to get a bunch of picks back and just move on with our lives. That's what it feels like the Phoenix thing is. It felt like this could have been the first time in Kevin Durant's life where he didn't really get to pick and maybe he just would have gotten moved somewhere. But then when

he was so vocal and made it so clear he didn't want to play for Golden State, I think it changed the math a little bit. Ultimately, I think the only way it would have worked for KD as a warrior again is if it was also a more elaborate LeBron going to Golden State thing. They would probably have to have it over with some... Just the old guys. And even it's not... Honestly, just put a bullet in my head. I just wouldn't be able to handle it.

Well, I think you're probably bailed out on that just because the timelines were so different. Let's talk about these old guys some more. Can we bring in conspiracy bill for a second let's do it i thought he was already in the room with us no we bring him in okay i'll put a i'll put a hoodie conspiracy bill is here are we sure

there's that lingering bitterness with kd for the achilles injury and maybe how that was handled by the team in which direction like him towards the Golden State? Yeah. People don't remember this, Bill. That's why you're Bill Simmons. I'm not Bill Simmons. I'm conspiracy Bill.

Conspiracy Bill is here. I'm just asking. I have no inside information. Please don't aggregate this. I just always thought it was a little weird. He heard his calf, came back and blew out his Achilles. People don't remember. And I was like at the time, there was a bit of a whisper campaign of what's up with KD?

What's taking him so long? You should be back already. Like, he looks good when we see him in practice, when we see him in the gym, blah, blah, blah. He's going to be a free agent. He doesn't want to risk it. And it was a whisper campaign, and he came back and then tore his freaking Achilles. And Bob Myers is crying at the news conference and all of that.

And I always thought that was like, man, damn, we did kind of say he was, you know, loafing and taking too long. Another great appearance from Conspiracy Bill. That was great. What a cameo by him. Why did you do something to it? I wonder what the people think on the chat.

I'm going to look in the chat for this. Oh man, that really got the chat going. People want a 90 minute conspiracy bill. So maybe I just put it on the hood every time. I'm sure you've gotten a few of the conspiracies with the Luca situation. Oh. It's out of control. We're saving all Luca Laker stuff for part two. We're still, we're on trade deadline watch. Baker stuff for part two. Okay. We're still, we're on trade deadline.

Watch. We have a Cody Zeller and Houston's 2028 second round pick going to the Rockets. So Atlanta can get under the luxury tax. Um, oh, sources tell free Pete Freep sports that Dennis Schroeder will end up with the Pistons as part of the massive Jimmy Butler deal. If I'm the Pistons, I'm just getting a little frisky. Could I get the sixth seed? I have an awesome player.

I have a team that is like tough and likes playing with each other and that gets a little aggro in some of these games. I have the scariest guy in the league, Beef Stew. Why not? They also ended up with, who did they get in the league, Beef Stew. Why not? They also ended up with, who did they get in the Butler deal? I want to say it was Lindy Waters and Josh Richardson, I want to say. Yeah, Josh Richardson. Maybe not players of importance for them. Lindy Waters, I could see actually giving them some minutes and some stretch at times.

I could see him giving them some... Oh, here's a fun one. In the Bogdanovic trade, the Clippers got three second round picks back, including their own pick. We love a pick return. We're trading so many second round picks, teams are now reacquiring their own picks. You don't love any pick like your own pick. Yeah, we finally got it back. They should do the welcome home jumbo, jumbo truck thing.

Do you think we should have third round picks? Should we have third round picks? Who are we drafting drafting the third round? I don't know. Like these teams love trading these picks. Then they can just put like they've acquired four third round picks and a second round picks. More bites at the apple, Bill.

So if we say the Lakers things for part two, what else jumped from the trade deadline for you? I mean, the Fox thing, I think was, was cool in a couple of ways because a lot of people felt like the Spurs should hold out for a better superstar. And I said this on our podcast, it's almost like your friend who is addicted to Tinder and is like a nice girl who wants him and wants to settle with him. But he's like, yeah, but I got these five other hot chicks on Tinder that might want to mess with me. It's like, no, get with the girl. That's like a nice girl. Good looking girl wants to be

with you. Settle up with that one. Do you think the was 10 years ago would have made this take, you know, of course not. No, this is personal development. Of course not. Very mature version. Yeah, you're very bummed out today. You got the cardigan going. The Spurs knocking in on not just De'Arend Fox as a talent, but like temperamentally, he's a Spurs kind of player in terms of his headspace, his approach to the game. You know, he's not like, he's just not an NBA diva. He's about the right things. And I thought they were smart to just be like, you know what? It's not going to cost us a ton to bring this guy in.

Yes. Some people might look at the extension like, are you gonna pay him 48 million dollars. I would I think he's a top 30 guys Yeah, I'm okay with it to me. I'm looking who he wanted to be in a small market Texas team, which is pretty rare Go get him and I'm happy they did that I I thought it was like the more I stared at it was like 62 cents on the dollar for what they paid I can't believe Sohan or Vasell were not in the trade and I don't know what the bulls, the more I stared at the bulls part of it. Their part of it is the most confusing. Every time they make a trade you're always like wait what are they getting? It just seems like now it's like cool we get Zach Collins for two years and

like I just don't get them at all. Another team that just like held onto Zakhlevin for too long, waiting for the perfect deal to materialize and it never did. And do we know that better deals were available earlier than this? Better than this? Yeah. I think Golden State was trying to get them before they went down the Butler road, but I think that was sitting there. I thought he was the sneaky trade piece of this whole thing.

Contracts bad, but it's not that bad. It's this year, next year, and then it's an expiring. He was playing great. I think I'd said this before, but he plays well against good teams, which I think matters. And I don't know what to make of that Sacramento team. We talked about it earlier, but I just, you could tell me they're gonna win 10 of their next 12, you can tell me they're going to win 10 of their next 12. You can tell me they're going to lose 12 in a row. I don't, it's, it's a weird team.

I mean, their owner just doesn't like the idea of a complete tear down and rebuild. And so other people might've been like, look, Fox has been our franchise player for how long we built everything around him. We moved Halliburton out of here because of him and our belief in him and he no longer wants to be here. All right, let's start all over. See if we can get some Sabonis offers out there. Let's start all over, do something different. Waz, they've made the playoffs one time in 20 years. 20 years. I get it. I get it.

That's the thing. It's like, in theory, sure. From an asset standpoint, maybe there's an argument for a tear down. So, bonus has been probably a little too good, at least as a regular season player for that. And, bonus, like, who trades for sub... I feel like he's way more valuable to them than he would be to some other team. That could be true. That could be true. A wise GM told me once, you always want to have six or seven dumb teams that you can trade with at any time in a 30-team league.

Sacramento has just always managed to be one of those teams. This has been a big deadline for potentially dumb teams. I was thinking, I know we're not dipping too much into the Lakers part of this yet, but the Luka trade has made me feel young again. It is, it is harkening back to a time of our youth where there just haven't been like that many old-fashioned absolute dog shit like David Kahn style trades. I was literally about to scream it Bill. That's like that's what it is. Kahn is running a team in France right now. We have 12 minutes left in the deadline and so far it's we're in Cody's hour, Dennis' shooter land.

Is there a team that you are surprised hasn't done anything yet? Definitely the Magic most surprised because they're so rudderless right now. And the idea that you wouldn't try to spruce that thing up is tough. I think the Knicks are really counting on Mitchell Robinson coming back and being that anchor.

It's a big role to dice. They really need him. But the big man market has also dried up pretty fast on them. OK, so. But you have Nick Wexton and Cam Johnson still sitting there. And I don't know the Nets, are they trying to sink or not? Why is nobody going to school? Click, is this an injury history thing?

He's currently injured, I want to say. I think it's a Swiss thing. Yeah, Magic should have probably tried to do something. I get it. They can be patient. Their guys are still young and all of that stuff and they feel like they're building towards something. But the Magic should have done something.

I'm always going to think that Denver Nuggets should have upgraded. So that's, Denver is my number one. I don't know what apron Denver's in, but they seem perfectly content to stay in that apron and not do anything. I was even wondering, like when Middleton got moved to Washington, would they try to make a move with Porter and use that Middleton contract, get one other, try to do like a three for one, something like that,

and maybe jump on the chance to dump Porter somewhere. But Porter's actually been playing pretty well lately. And Michael Mullen was like quite definitive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They are not gonna trade Michael Porter. So it seems like he's there. Murray they're already all in on. Yoko job is to go anywhere.

Gordon they extended. And they just don't really have the flexibility. But if they do like the Zeke Naji, with Sarich, some swaps, second, third and fourth round picks, and just, I don't know, what could you get for that? They are actually close.

They feel like one even kind of minor role player edition could tick them up a couple of percentage points in the title race. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. And also, just related to that. Especially in the West. Why has nobody made a move for Jeremy Grant? I know the Bucs were kicking the tires. Because they have a league pass?

He makes 35 billion a year. And he's already 30. I think he's on trade about that number. It's one of those things where guys on bad teams, I feel like you get in the right situation, that's actually playing for something. You can change the contours of what you do on a night-to-night basis if it's for some greater good. A couple of YouTube chat questions as we wait for a trade.

Daniel wants to know if we can discuss Butler's jersey retirement in Miami and whether that would happen. Who's retired over there? I'm already on the record as after Vince Carter's number got retired in New Jersey and Toronto, I think everyone is eligible now. Yeah. Especially Vince in Toronto. If that can happen, I'm fully prepared for Jimmy Butler in Miami.

I think that should happen, but we'll see. It'll probably be after Pat Raleigh's dead. Maybe like 15 years from now. Probably. He's definitely one of the greatest heat ever. Um, Russell Martin says Sacramento turning into the Bulls is so sad. This is disrespectful to DeMata Sabonis. I want to...

They're better than the Bulls. They're better than the Bulls. They're the Bulls with DeMata Sabonis. Yeah. That's a, that's a meaningful difference. You know, that's a different thing. The Bulls basically had, what was it, 30 games in Lonzo's first year? But what a beautiful 23 games they were.

And Sacramento's been that good. Cappella's not injured. Cappella's not, I don't know, like if you need big man help. He might be day to day, he might be a minor. If you need big man help, why are you breaking the bank to me? And I know we're saving it for the second half for Mark Williams. Save it for the second half. Where you could do something for Clint Capello just for this year.

A couple people are asking about KD. KD to the Spurs, KD to the Grizzlies, KD to the Rockets. KD to the Grizzlies is a KD move. What's the most interesting of those three? KD to the Grizzlies, KD to the Rockets. KD to the Grizzlies is a KD move. What's the most interesting of those three? KD to the Grizzlies is a KD move. Because they have the stars already, so he won't feel like the burden is all on him. I was wondering how you were going to make this insulting for a second. Yeah, the burden is-

I thought you were like- I thought you were complimenting him, but I was like, I was confused. No, he's going to recognize the burden will not be all on him. And so he can go in and just do KD things. Just come in. Plus he can take over the offense in the two out of every five games when John doesn't play for some reason. Is John not playing today? No, he's got bronchitis. Listen, it also would be very bitter sweet. John's just trying to save himself for the playoffs.

Has John played four games in a row? I don't think so yet. But they're being very cautious. Should I be surprised when I put the Grizzlies on league pass and it's like, here's Jav Moran he's playing tonight. He's like him and Joel Embiid. I can't believe you're on my TV. It's the perfect compliment I can

play to Grizzlies and I get it I'm in the tank for them. Even when Jav's not playing I still want to watch that team. The Jaren Jackson Jr. agenda is strong. Yeah, my biggest regret is not voting for him as an All-Star starter. I didn't have the balls. I wasn't strong enough. And then Rossello of course did it, and then I was super jealous of it. Because when you watch him, there's definitely an aggro Jaren Jackson this year.

Especially in crunch time. And they're like, they'll run offense like Bam Adebayo style. Like he'll bring the ball over mid-court and like be telling people where to go. Drive at people too. That would be the kick of the potential Kevin Durant trade. Would be that the Grizzlies spent all this time cultivating this very elaborate, interwoven offense. And it's like, oh, let's just get the ball to Kevin Durant. So if the Rockets traded...

I'm trying to think what the KD trade would be, but I think Van Vleet would have to be in it. Probably still. Because they can't trade. But if it was like, damn, who's playing a point guard for them? If it was like Van Vleet, Terry Eason, a bunch of picks, and Phoenix just gets a reboot and then they get out from under, you know, the money stuff next year. I just, I wouldn't do, I'm not wavering from my, I wouldn't do anything if I'm the Rockets this year because I don't think

they're winning the title and I want to, I want to move into the summer and make a move with Jalen Green or Shangoone potentially. Also if you're gonna do that man, get somebody who's in their 20s, even if it's their late 20s, get somebody in there. Don't get a 38 year old man. Come on, you're adding years to him. He's like 36, 35. Mahoney, where do you stand on KD right now as an impact guy? He's really good. Because his stats. Oh his stats are insane. Yeah, I was actually looking at this. I did a little uh, I actually did some homework for this pod. Because it's my job. Um I was looking at kd this year versus kd career

So his last 15 years from 2010 to this year. He's 28 a game This year is 27 He was seven rebounds for those 15 years. He's six this year. It's five assists. He's four this year For those 15 years 51 percent. He's 52 this year 39, he's six this year. It's five assists, he's four this year. For those 15 years, 51% is 52 this year. 39% for three, 40 this year. 7.6 free throw attempts for those 15 years. 6.1 this year. He's 91% of what he normally is.

And the only slippage I really see is when I watch, because he just looks a little creakier, stiffer than he used to be. He used to be like such a, one of the way he was playing. He was so smooth. He's not, he's still smooth, but he's not like that. Is there anything else you've noticed?

I mean, he is by far their most reliable creator this year. He's the only reason their defense has ever remotely worked, which it mostly does not, but he's the only thing kind of papering over most of their mistakes and the lack of ball pressure on the perimeter. There's a reason why when he's out, they look like a totally different team. They just, they don't know how to work without him in Phoenix.

The only thing he doesn't do anymore is turn the corner, guys. He's not getting to the cup the way, like, Prime KD, like, that was what made it unstoppable. But he still gets to his spots. And can elevate. Hey we have a trade. Shams yet again Shams just dancing in Rojas wake having a great time. The Grizzlies trading Marcus Smart and a 25 first round pick to the Wizards in a multi-team trade that sends a couple second round picks to Memphis. Memphis creates roster flexibility and cap stuff with the move. We also have Sean saying Kevin Porter Jr. to the Bucks for Marjon Bochamp. I've gone to a couple Kevin Porter games where you

watch and like, this guy's pretty good. And then you have to calm yourself down. No, he gets to the basket, man. He has moments where he looks like an above average NBA athlete. Where it's like, man, this guy has some physical gifts in terms of quickness and all of that. Can we talk about the smart thing though? So they trade smart, two first round picks. They trade two first round picks. Basically poor Zingas for Smart is the trade. Right?

And Smart shows up and he's been banged up the entire time, which I think is, I tried to say this delicately when the trade happened, I think the Celtics felt like this car has a lot of miles on it. Let's sell a year too high than a year too late. And I wonder is, because he's an expiring this year next year can't remember let's find out but he still feels like a playoff guy for me and I remember the Lakers try to get him a year ago and I wonder if that ends if that ends up being a Laker possibility would be my guess I'll find out as you

guys talk Marcus Martin anything left in the tank I mean this is a player over 25 for the Washington Wizards which which does not fit their timeline. With Middleton, two adults. I guess that's true. They do have Chris Middleton now. What a weird roster. What a weird way for Marcus Smart's Grizzlies tenure to end. I can't believe that we got here.

Next year is his last year. $21 million. $21 million for Marcus Smart. So yeah, I don't know what's left. Well now that they have Marcus Smart, the Wizards have waived Reggie Jackson. Oh, Reggie. Shout out to Reggie Jackson's brief Wizards career. So, yeah, with Marcus, whether there's anything left in tank or not, as somebody who watched

a lot of his career, most of his games that he played, just that style of play, you're just not aging nicely. All the fucking abuse that his body took, all the charges he took, all the big guys he had to go against. And I don't know. I just want to get to the world where he's retired and he's the lead analyst with Drew Carter on Celtic Games. Maybe with Scow, we can keep Scow.

But I think Marcus Smart will be an incredible post-career local Celtic guy. Would be my hope for him. I'm trying to figure out what Memphis is doing, because the reporting from Shams around the Marcus Smart trade is that it's creating roster flexibility. And Memphis just, it appears- So there's some trade coming.

Dumped Jake Larravia, who can actually play. Rotation guy! To the Sacramento Kings, nice little pickup for them. So they did that weird thing with Larravia where they didn't Extend his option. So he was a free agent after the year and then he started playing really well They kind of fucked it up. So the Kings got the Arabia. They got the Arabia. I like him I was hoping the Celtics would get him. So what are yeah, what are the Grizzlies gonna do here?

Smir I wonder if there's Now I'm starting to wonder if there's some Katie potential Won't be very exciting. Although I was, when the KD era in Phoenix appeared that it might be coming to a close, I was trying to reflect and say, okay, what have we done here? About two years as a Sun so far, obviously hasn't had the playoff run this year, a six and nine record in the playoffs with Phoenix one playoff series win series win But that awesome two games with Booker where they scored like that was sick 90 points

He came together and it was like holy shit zip to the nuggets and came back and tied the series up Hey guys, we have to end part one of the podcast, but we're staying on YouTube. Don't leave We're just any part one of the podcast, but we're staying on YouTube. Don't leave. We're just ending part one of the podcast, which will go up pretty shortly. All right. That's it for part one of the BS podcast. Remember part two is coming pretty soon. Right after the trade deadline. Thanks to Kyle Creighton, Gahau and Saruti for producing as always.

You can watch all the clips and videos from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel, See for Part Two. It must be 21 plus in President-elect states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in President DC. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-hope.com, call 1-887-897777, or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut, or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here, visit Gambling Help Line, ma.org, or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts,

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