The Bill Simmons Podcast - Part 1: The Best NBA Finals Angles With Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: June 3, 2024

In Part 1 of a two-part podcast, The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss the Mavericks-Celtics NBA Finals, a look back on each team's playoff path, NBA historical implications,... how the Mavericks reinvented their team mid-season, player matchups, and much more. Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producer: Kyle Crichton The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Starting point is 00:00:00 coming up a special two-part NBA finals preview with a lot more next it's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel football is in full action FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet it all we've been doing pretty well a million dollar picks this year I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking I think Pittsburgh's going to be good I think the Chargers are going to thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the Chargers are going to be good. I think Seattle's going to be good. And then trying to back what you think in those first few weeks and then zag the other way if you were wrong. You can bid on new and fun markets on FanDuel like to catch a pass, same game parlays,
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Starting point is 00:02:25 for you on monday night we did slap shot it's only one of the best sports movies of all time it's only the best hockey movie of all time it is coming on monday night we might even put it a tiny bit earlier than usual and you'll be able to watch it eventually as well on our ringer movies youtube channel hope you're checking out my youtube channel as well. Just search for Bill Simmons. You will find it. Coming up, we're going to do a special two-part podcast. Me and Rosillo here for part one and then we have something a little different for you for part two that's going to go up later that night. We're talking BA Finals right now.
Starting point is 00:02:57 First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, we are taping this on a non-sunny Sunday afternoon here in Los Angeles. Ryan Rosillo is here. We're talking NBA Finals, at least in part one. Celtics minus 225 favorites to win the title Mavericks. Plus 188 on Fando. Rosillo, are people kind of sleeping on what a massive upset it would be if Dallas actually won the championship here?
Starting point is 00:03:41 Because I feel like in the last couple of days, because Luke and Kyrie looked so good in the last round, that now a lot of people are like, I'll tell you, you won the championship here because I feel like in the last couple of days, because Luke and Kyrie look so good in the last round that now a lot of people are like, I'll tell you, you won best player in the series. And it just feels like Dallas is a massive underdog, but isn't a massive underdog. What do you, what do you see watching it from 40,000 feet away? Okay. So you're frustrated about the series, correct? I wouldn't say frustrated because I don't, I don't know if there's 100% of a right answer. I do have some thoughts that I'm going to get into, but I wanted to see what's your gut take on
Starting point is 00:04:10 how Dallas is being treated as we head into this. Well, you started by saying it'd be a massive upset. I guess I don't feel that way because of Luka. So maybe I'm guilty of all the things
Starting point is 00:04:24 that you're being critical of right now because, I mean, I'm going to pick Boston at seven and it's just not a hedge. It's respect for Luka, knowing that he will figure out a way to dissect. You know he's penciled in for 30 every one of these games. I mean, if you hold him to 24, it's a miracle.
Starting point is 00:04:39 But he can undo pretty much anything you throw at him. And in a series where there's only five guys out there, I think he has all of this momentum that is preventing not only me, but others from thinking it would be this huge upset because it feels disrespectful of who Luke has been. I completely agree. And yet, I'm going to give you some historical stuff.
Starting point is 00:05:02 This is such a fascinating series to me because the gut check, eye test, watching basketball, and also seeing really what's happened with the Mavericks the last three and a half months and not knowing what's going to happen with Porzingis. The series feels way closer, right? Like even the Celtics being minus 225 feels a little high when you think about how well Dallas is playing and the Porzingis X Factor. But I'm going to give you some stuff. First, the Mavericks would be the third biggest finals underdog upset to win since the merger.
Starting point is 00:05:39 Being plus 188 right now. The biggest one ever. Do you know who it is? It's the series that made Haralba Haralba. Uh, Dallas, Miami. Oh, four Pistons, five to one underdogs in 2004 against the Lakers and they win. So that's by far the biggest underdog that's pulled off. The second biggest one was the 2019 Raptors who were plus 230. And that series was pretty goofy because KD comes back and immediately gets hurt. Clay gets hurt. By the end of it, it's like the Warriors running on fumes. But I don't remember the Raptors being underdogs like
Starting point is 00:06:18 that, but apparently they were. So the Mavs would be number three if they won it, plus 185. This is since 1976. And then it goes 2016 Cavs, plus 180. 21 bucks, plus 165. 08 Celtics were underdogs, plus 160 against Kobe and the Lakers. And then the 12 Heat and the 11 Mavs were both plus 155. So this would be the third, just by gambling odds, the third biggest upset since the merger. That was surprising to me. Would you have guessed that?
Starting point is 00:06:49 No, I wouldn't have. I mean, the Toronto number would have been different if KD was totally healthy, but there was all the speculation about what it was going to be considering they were looking for a three-peat at that point.
Starting point is 00:06:59 I thought the Dallas odds would have been lower the first time against the Heat. And I think that's interesting too. The Heat second run through it. Well, that was OKC. Yeah, guess what? OKC was favored in that 2012 Heat series.
Starting point is 00:07:18 Yeah. The 06 Heat were plus 130 underdogs. And the 1995 Rockets were plus 130. and then the 1977 Blazers were plus 140. So anyway, the point is, it's really rare for a team that is this drastic of an underdog to win the finals. So there's that. Next thing, Dallas would be the second worst finals winner by record since the first bird magic season. So the worst one since 1980 is the 95 Rockets. They're 47 and 35.
Starting point is 00:07:53 Dallas is 50 and 32. Miami in 06 was 52 and 30. And then there's three teams in the late seventies. The Sonics were 52 and 30 and 79. The 78 Bullets were 44 and 38. And the Blazers were 52 and 30 and 79 the 78 Bullets were 44 and 38 and the Blazers were 49 and 33 so just from a regular season hey this is
Starting point is 00:08:09 really unusual this would be the second most unusual only one team has lost more games in the last 44 years and won the finals than this Dallas team you remember that was irrelevant just before we go any further on that that's the regular season stuff for me on them is irrelevant.
Starting point is 00:08:27 They were 26 and 23 after they had lost, I think, six to eight. And that was the week of the trade deadline. So the first time they got those guys in the lineup together was every 10. And Kyrie missed some time too. Kyrie missed like 20 games. There's a very easy explanation especially too when you think about 50 wins in the west this year that's like 55 in a normal year I'm just laying out I'm just laying out history and stats I have no opinion
Starting point is 00:08:57 but it is interesting though the 95 Rockets they made the Drexler trade halfway through the season their team changed this 24 Dallas team they make the Gafford trade halfway through the season. Their team changed. This 24 Dallas team, they make the Gafford and the Washington trade. Their team changes. And then the 06 Miami, that had the coaching change, right? Van Gundy for Pat Riley at some point during the season. And then once you get in the 70s, the 70s were pretty weird.
Starting point is 00:09:23 Those would be the three most drastic ones. So there's that. And then the other one in the 70s, the 70s are pretty weird. Those would be the three most drastic ones. So there's that. And then the other one that I thought was interesting, Dallas would be the fifth franchise since the merger to miss the playoffs and then win the finals the next year. And what's weird is that's only happened four times and two of them were recent, the 22 Warriors and the 20 Lakers with the bubble.
Starting point is 00:09:46 And then the 08 Celtics, they missed because the year before they tanked. And then the 77 Blazers missed. So that's it. So just like removing everything from it, there's three giant history red flags with the Mavericks thing. And yet I still feel like mentally I'm where you are. Like you almost like throw it out. It's this different Mavs team that seems like it came together the last six weeks. So ignore all the history stuff and concentrate on the six weeks, I think is the right answer. I don't think there's any other answer because it's a different team.
Starting point is 00:10:19 And considering the teams that they've gone through here, where granted once Kawhi went down, the Clippers are entirely different, but you take on an OKC team where over the six games,'ve gone through here, where granted, once Kawhi went down, the Clippers are entirely different. But you take on an OKC team where over the six games, the points were even. And a bounce here or a bounce there. Although I feel like Luka, you have to give it a little bit more credit than just make or miss league stuff. Because we just see how great the looks are for him. How helpless you feel when he wants to make sure he's going to get a good look for himself.
Starting point is 00:10:44 Or if you completely sell out to stop him in some clutch moment in the game, he's going to make the right read and depends on whether or not the guy's going to hit the shot. Like you just are going to get a good possession. Like he and Jokic are on the list of two where I go in a tight spot, give me a good look. I know those two guys are going to be the best two looks in the world. And the fact that defensively, there's some real connectivity with this team that I watched the second game from from Boston and Dallas this morning I watched it again and there's some stuff that you could say oh boy that might be scary for Dallas but then I think about the defensive effort that I saw against Minnesota and I go this isn't even close it's not even
Starting point is 00:11:21 close to being the same team yeah they'd only been together less than three weeks. There's two other things from a history standpoint. The Celtics. I did that list for you last week about the 20 losses or less finals teams. There's only one team that had 20 losses or less heading in the finals that actually lost the finals. And that was the 2016 Warriors. Everybody else won 96 bowls, 97 bowls,
Starting point is 00:11:48 17 Warriors, 86 Celts, 87 Lakers. Keep going, going, going. So this Celtics team would have to be the second one ever. And there is 12,
Starting point is 00:11:58 15 examples. So those teams are 14 and one in the finals. So there's that. And the other thing, which I think is getting lost just because of who they played, but the Celtics have been dominant for eight months, right? They were 76 and 20 in the regular season. They were first in offense, second in defense, plus 11.7 net rating. In the playoffs, they were second in offense, third in defense,
Starting point is 00:12:25 plus 10.8. They've been pretty consistent. And I don't know, I feel like from an odd standpoint, the odds should be higher. And yet I understand why the yards are what they are because of the Luka fear factor.
Starting point is 00:12:38 And because this is the kind of league we've grown up with where it's like, you take the one guy who's not afraid of a situation is the best guy on the court. And that should overcome all this other stuff. And yet all the historical evidence says, yeah, most of the time that's not actually true. Most of the time that team loses and here are all the examples. I think this is one of the harder series to figure out that we've had,
Starting point is 00:12:57 because the other thing we did mention, home court advantage just does not seem to matter anymore. I don't think it matters where these games are being played. I don't know if it really helps Boston, um, other than maybe to have a game seven in Boston, but for the most part, I don't really feel like it's going to matter. The times are so late on the East coast. That part's weird. Boston's been great on the road all season. I think they can go into Dallas and win. I just don't think it matters. And I think this is a really goofy series. So two things in all the different ways that I've looked at the series. If you go over the last however many years, you say, okay, LeBron, when he won it in the bubble, he's still in the conversation for best player in the league. Is that fair?
Starting point is 00:13:38 Four years ago? Yeah, no question. Okay. All right. So 21. Giannis. 22. Steph, little reminder season, 23, Jokic maintains his hold on the belt where you could have argued it or he'd had it for a little while. And then the kind of dot, dot, dot part of it here with Luca, where we just know if you're a Boston fan, Tatum's none of those guys. So he's none of those guys. And I think this is a three year Boston hangover where you could even add years if you wanted to. And this is something
Starting point is 00:14:09 I've talked about in the past where if ever I do like a radio interview somewhere and they'll say, yo, what's up with Boston? What's up with Boston? It's like they had a schedule in 17, 18. Okay. And when they lost to Miami in 20, I didn't really think it was that big of a deal. 22, they showed something against Milwaukee that would be counter to the fact that people still think they're soft. And I'll admit there's moments where it's not so much soft. It's just the late execution, which we're going to spend a lot of time talking about with the series because it'll probably creep up and scare you.
Starting point is 00:14:39 If it happens in game one where Boston just stagnant offensively, lose at home and Lucas closing, well, you're going to go up. Here we go again. But I think it's a three year hangover of not trusting the offense against Golden State and it looking very apparent that there was a gap and then the Miami debacle of last year. So if this Celtics season where they just added Drew and Przingis and this group hadn't really gotten through the second round and they're in this tier with all these other NBA teams and their rosters going, what's wrong with this guy?
Starting point is 00:15:07 It's different in that if it lived on its own, I think the Celtics would be more public favorites, at least the way they'd be talked about. But it feels like the basketball community is just so sick of them and probably too disappointed by them that all that's baked in to the lead-up of this where, again, the Boston run just wasn't that impressive and Luka took out three teams with 50 wins. And yet the Boston, you know,
Starting point is 00:15:35 they didn't have Porzingis this whole time, which just got kicked to the curb with the run. I know they're a bunch of stars missing on another team, but I do feel like it was a bigger deal to not have Porzingis than people gave it credit for. It was 23 a game. It was the guy who just made them completely unstoppable offensively. It had a ripple effect
Starting point is 00:15:52 on their bench. There's guys that are playing more. There's some games where they just got zero from the bench because the whole hierarchy got knocked around. If he plays and he's healthy, which I still haven't been able to get a straight answer on, they're going to have five of the best seven guys in the series. I guess one of the things that I'm really surprised by is, and I get it because Luka is super fun to watch and Kyrie
Starting point is 00:16:17 has been the best version of Kyrie we've seen in, I don't know, since the 2017 finals. And has shown a lot of different things over three rounds. I thought in OKC, when they were guarding him a specific way and he wasn't trying to force anything, he was just playing defense, getting people involved. And then this last round where he was really good. So it feels like people are glass half full on those guys in a lot of ways. And then on the Boston guys, glass half empty. Luka is better than Tatum. There's no question. But Tatum's not that far away from Luka from a
Starting point is 00:16:52 statistical standpoint. It's not like the distance it was with Minnesota where Ant's not going to play that well. It was like a chasm. Ant not playing well. It was like 22 to 24 points a game tatum and brown and the playoffs have been like 51 52 points a game which is right around the same of where luca and kairi are you know but i i just think from my test it seems like those guys are so much so much more fun to watch play offense it doesn't make sense to us that the stats are pretty similar and they are but it's built i think it's because it builds in that Luke and Kyrie were at 59 points per game combined against Minnesota, the
Starting point is 00:17:29 best defense in the NBA. If you were just to look at this, if Dallas hadn't played Minnesota along their path to the NBA Finals, you go, Boston's got all these different guys that can switch a ton of stuff. They can start with Jalen Brown on him, who's big enough. If Tatum has to get him
Starting point is 00:17:48 for some spots, as long as Drew doesn't get pinned deep in the post, he can at least hold up a little bit. There's options, right? There's options. I think he's going to walk Derek White down when he gets him. And then you're like, okay, but the other team had Ant, they had Jaden, they had Alexander Walker, and then they'd be filtered into these other big guys back there. And it didn't matter. It went to another level. And that's the Boston side that scares you. So on the Minnesota piece, because I think that's part of what we need to do to unpack this Dallas-Boston matchup. The big question for me is what happened in Minnesota, which I think we have to tackle, but let's take a break and then we'll hit it. With FanDuel, it's never too late to get into the action, this NBA playoffs. Right now, new customers get $150 in bonus bets with any winning $5 bet. That is $150 to use on same-game
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Starting point is 00:19:17 Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. You know me, I can't go a day without sports. I really can't. And now Monday nights are all about hockey. That's right. There's a new exclusive home for streaming Monday night NHL hockey.
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Starting point is 00:19:52 It's on Monday. It's on Prime. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember.
Starting point is 00:20:06 You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. So the Minnesota piece of this, we haven't talked about that series since it ended. And I can't decide what happened because you could tell me there was some rock,
Starting point is 00:20:37 paper, scissors stuff going on with Denver and Minnesota and Dallas, right? Minnesota built to beat Denver. Dallas, for whatever reason, matched up perfectly against Minnesota. And maybe if Denver played Dallas, maybe that would have been a great matchup for them. I don't know. But watching it, and I was just like, man, I couldn't tell whether it was like strategy mistakes that they were doing or what it was, because in the previous round, OKC put Jalen Williams a lot on Kyrie and then followed that up with Wallace. And they really, I don't want to say they took Kyrie out of the series, but they really gave him issues. I mean, he averaged like 16 points a game in that series. And then Minnesota, it seems like they couldn't decide what the right
Starting point is 00:21:19 Kyrie strategy was and all of them turned out to be the wrong strategy, right? So defensively, it was like they just never figured it out. And then Luca just gained confidence as the series went along and just torched them. And then on the other side, they couldn't figure out who to attack and exploit on the Dallas side. And every time they tried to attack Luca, it got weird. It's like, well, when he's gone, Gobert will post up Gobert. And it's like, all right, if you're going to start doing that, you're probably in trouble. But it was like they could just never solve it.
Starting point is 00:21:48 So did Minnesota run out of gas? Or did Dallas go up a level? Or both? I don't think it's running out of gas. I mean, this team's too young to sit there and say they ran out of gas, even though Ant was like UFC fifth round exhausted at the end of game one. And I think he might've just been so hyped. He might've just been so hyped and he was bringing the ball up to help Conley. He's guarding Kyrie, he's chasing around and then he's tasked with being the number one option
Starting point is 00:22:14 the entire night on offense. But it was, so when people are going to say like, oh, what do you mean they didn't run out of gas? Like, look at him, look how tired the guys were. I think that was a specific game thing for Ann. He might have just been so hyped up that he burned himself out a little bit. The thing I keep coming back to when I try to figure out who I was going to pick is that it's
Starting point is 00:22:36 two versus one. Two versus one meaning Minnesota had one guy they cared about on offense. If you go back through all those Cat games before he finally got hot in Game 4, and he sucked again in Game 5, those were a lot of good looks.
Starting point is 00:22:52 The worst shot decisions Cat made was when he decided to drive on Lively. And I don't know that he got Lively one time, by the way. Maybe he got some free throws in Game 5. But it only worked once Lively was out of the game in Game 4. And when I look at Oklahoma City, Shea has that incredible game four where he goes 10 of 14 for mid-range shots for the most makes in the mid-range in five years since Chris Paul in a playoff game.
Starting point is 00:23:17 And you're like, that's how you had to win that game. Yeah. You had to do that. And then you're watching Jalen Williams have these long stretches where as a a young guy first taste of it didn't really look comfortable offensively and then if you look at the clippers part of it you get the coin toss stars the coin toss brothers in harden and pg is that you just come up with that yeah yeah you just like you have no idea no you have no idea there's two options one's good one's bad but you know within the first six minutes of the game it's like oh with hard tails right with harden i can usually tell be like oh we're
Starting point is 00:23:52 doing a lot of entry passes uh so when i land on boston in seven games i do believe this will be the first time where it goes wait we have to, we have to worry about more than one guy. Right. Which they only really had in one Clipper game when it was Paul, George, and Harden were going together. Because I think that only happened once in that series. Certainly OKC never happened.
Starting point is 00:24:18 It was the floater game. Harden hits all of those floaters at the end of that one game where Dallas stayed back the entire time and was just letting him, but you're also expecting, is Harden going to make every single one of these floaters at the end of that one game where Dallas stayed back the entire time and was just letting, but you're also expecting like, is Harden going to make every single one of these floaters? And he does because he's obviously really talented. But from all the angles that I look at this, the one that makes me feel best about the Boston side of it is this is the first time in a couple of series where that number two guy is going to feel like a better bet to show up than what you had with OKC and certainly Minnesota.
Starting point is 00:24:50 Well, what if they get a healthy Porzingis as the other piece too? Because then they'll have a third guy who is better. I still think there's a scenario where he comes in and he's just really good. And they've been kind of putting him on ice and keeping the injury glow on it. 37 days off? I don't know. Back to Minnesota for one second. Towns was 8 for 33 from 3 in the series.
Starting point is 00:25:13 That was higher than I thought. And all of those shots felt like they were open. I don't really feel like any of them were contested. He finished with 8 threes and 12 fouls. I went through them all bill i went through every one of his shot attempts through the first three games and i went in expecting way more decisions that i didn't like and it was one of those deals where when you're only like really focused on that i got done like i have really easy thing where i'll go like good
Starting point is 00:25:40 decision bad decision and then kind of questionable maybe not on him shot clock or whatever there was an overwhelming number of them that were actually really good looks. And the best shooting, the self-annoyed best shooting big in the NBA didn't make them. You just gacked. And then you go to the previous series
Starting point is 00:25:56 when their whole strategy was like, let's at least try to take out as much of Kyrie as we can. We'll let all these other guys beat us, which I think is the right strategy when you play Dallas. And then PJ goes 23 for 49 from three. Jones goes 10 for 27. So combined, they were 33 for
Starting point is 00:26:13 76. And then Josh Green was 10 for 27. So all their guys just started making it. I guess if you're going to make the case against Dallas, their role guys, I think outkicked their coverage a little bit from a shooting standpoint. And we know at the finals, we know that there's levels to this stuff as you go. And you get to that final round and the intensity and the scrutiny and everything starts three hours for the game. And even when you're doing shoot-arounds, there's a bunch of people on the court already. Games start late. There's no flow to anything. And it's tough to rely on those guys. It just is. Whereas at least the Celtics, their guys went through it in 2022 all the beats of a four round playoff series except for Porzingis. That's it. So I think that's an advantage for them.
Starting point is 00:27:11 The flip side is if you're Luka, who did you go against in the first three rounds that is the type of person who can at least make you work for all the points you need to get?
Starting point is 00:27:26 Dort. Okay. rounds that is the type of person who can at least make you work for all the points you need to get. Dork. Okay. He makes you work. Jalen and Tatum are at least going to make them work. And I think that's one of the things that interests me about this series from just a basketball strategy standpoint. How much are they going to try to put on those two guys? Because those are the type of guys, I talked about this last week, Ben Simmons was probably the most successful guy against Luka over the last six years, even though he's a younger version of Luka. But it's 6'9", athletic, strong. That's who you want. At least make him work so he can't put people on his hip
Starting point is 00:27:59 pocket and do all the stuff he does. One of my questions I have is who is Jalen going to guard in this series? Because I think you can make a case he should guard Kyrie. Because that's what OKC did where they put Jalen Williams on him a lot and they put size and athleticism and length on him and just tried to make him pass the ball around. And we've seen Jalen take all these other challenges. It feels like a very Jalen-y decision to be like, you're going to guard Kyrie in game one. Yeah, fuck yeah. I've guarded all these different guys. People don't realize very Jalen-y decision. Be like, you're going to guard Kyrie in game one. Yeah, fuck yeah. I've guarded all these different guys. People don't realize what a good two-way. I can see him getting fired up for it and them just
Starting point is 00:28:31 trying to take out Kyrie and then just throwing a bunch of people at Luka. So it'll be Tatum, it'll be Drew, you know, little Al Horford, like whatever. They'll just kind of rotate dudes, but really try to take out Kyrie would be my guess. Jalen aside to Kyrie, and Kyrie goes for 45 in game one and Jalen says in the postgame he's just
Starting point is 00:28:50 he's just proud of him I hope I hope those guys aren't going to do that this road uh so when I looked at the matchups I'll give them to you from the March 1st game Dallas started lively. PJ, Josh Green started and then it was Kyrie and Luka. And you know me. I just, I seem to always love Josh Green minutes even when they're a little chaotic. And Jalen starts on Luka, but it doesn't really matter.
Starting point is 00:29:17 You can be assigned to him immediately within that game. A lot of the stuff that's the same stuff that we saw against Minnesota, those double drag screens, Luka works at left to right. He's looking for like two different things off it, then throws to the corners. But I thought the most interesting part was that Przingis is on PJ Washington and Tatum was on lively. So I don't know if lively now who is really answered the bell about like, if the crazy thing about lively if he's only this it's awesome right it's like a 15-year career yeah so i think there's probably a little bit more trust depending
Starting point is 00:29:55 on how luke is going to be looking for switches because you know as soon as there was a double big lineup with horford and prasingas he was looking for horford's guy to come up and set the screen but prasingas with all of his rim protection numbers, where he was the fifth best, depending on how many attempts, at the rim in the NBA this season, like really lofty numbers, like up there with Embiid, up there with Kessler, up there with, who else, Rudy, I think was fourth in that number. When you look at where Przingis is statistically
Starting point is 00:30:24 and how much you think that should help Boston having some kind of rim protection there. I don't know if Missoula will do the same thing where it's like keep him on PJ but allowed to roam. But if you get OKC PJ, then you're in major trouble where then against
Starting point is 00:30:40 Minnesota, it didn't even matter that he only shot 25% from three. When I watch the game again this morning, Drew has to make sure he doesn't get stuck deep or Luka setting up off the ball because that's a problem. I think White just isn't stout enough for him. It probably feels like Jalen and Tatum, but then it'll really be dictated on what kind of switch Luka wants to run because I think he'd probably be more trusting and lively at this stage than he was when they played him
Starting point is 00:31:07 Mark. Well, they're going to trap him a bunch too. That was one of the many weird Minnesota pieces I didn't get from that last series. You think so? They don't double a lot. I thought it was an easy series for Dallas. They just kind of did whatever they wanted to do, whereas I thought OKC was a little more inventive with the way
Starting point is 00:31:23 they defended and it just came down to the side guys on Dallas just made a shitload of shots and they got some rebounds. But I felt like OKC was way more in the ballpark for how to play with that team. And the Clipper series was weird because Luka was hurt because I was looking at some of those games and trying to remember what I thought. And Luka shot like, I don't't know 24% from three or like he just was limping around for most of the time but I think the OKC was a better basically Boston has to do what OKC a lot of what they did
Starting point is 00:31:54 in that last series but rebound and protect the rim a little bit better but you're right about Luka I just want to add this though to think that through the grind Luka has looked better and better physically as the playoffs have gone on because there were the Clippers moments where like, okay, wait, what's going on here? He shot 24% from three in that series. Even in the clinching game, he was one of 10. He starts game one against OKC, one for eight. And then against them in game two, I was actually worried about him, as we've already covered that part of it. Didn't take a lot of free throws in that game at all,
Starting point is 00:32:29 but still finishes with 29, 10, and 7, which is basically the least you'd expect from him. But he still had moments where physically it didn't look right. I don't know if it was him working the officials maybe a little bit more because of Dort's physicality. But then you go into the Minnesota part of it, you're saying oh they could have done this they could have done that I just think that's the brilliance of him he's 44 percent from three 43 percent from three in that game in that series because you think he got Jaden this is the stout versus length thing
Starting point is 00:32:56 with Luka that that I think is very easy to identify as great as Jaden is on the ball and he's one of the best in the game he got got on the backside of Luka every single high screen, and then Luka is like, okay, you're behind me going for a ride. I'm not worried about you. I've got a retreating big. For the most part, Minnesota wants to drop there. I think sometimes they change it up a little bit, but consistently it was him knowing.
Starting point is 00:33:19 He's got Lively on some kind of role, and then his vision to the corners is unmatched because he's as massive as he is and he can just stop and then make the decision and you're battling four different decisions. So I think it looks easy, not because Minnesota screwed up because of how special he is. I think they screwed up not putting McDaniels on Kyrie and just being like
Starting point is 00:33:41 McDaniels, take out Kyrie as much as you can. So would you, would you focus on, I think if they had to do it over again, it's unquest take out Kyrie as much as you can. So would you focus on... We'll live with the Lucas up. I think if they had to do it over again, it's unquestionably what they would have done is that. Because I think you bring up a good point in thinking about this.
Starting point is 00:33:52 Do you think it might be like, hey, if Luca wants to switch and get in one-on-one, it's fine, but Boston needs to make sure Kyrie is bottled up as much as possible off the ball. That's what you think. I think they're going to trap Luca so that they, he doesn't get going. Cause like in the first quarter of the Minnesota game was a great example. You could see what was unfolding as it was unfolding and everyone could see
Starting point is 00:34:12 it except Minnesota. It was like, Oh man, I hope it doesn't make another shot. And then you make another shot. I was like, Oh damn, he made another one.
Starting point is 00:34:19 It's like, you guys can control this a little bit. Let somebody else make a shot. I don't, I think Boston is going to do everything they can to not let those Luka runs happen. And they have the perfect team to guard Kyrie. They really do. They even have a better version of what OKC had to at least, you're not going to shut them down, but they have guards to throw at them. They have size to throw at them. They
Starting point is 00:34:41 have rim protection if Porzingis is going to play. I just think it's a good matchup. It's funny though because I heard some great stuff over the last couple days. There were some rollicking takes out there. It doesn't seem like you mean great in the sense that most of us define great. Give us it, Bill. What do you got?
Starting point is 00:35:00 Get it off your chest. Takes were flying. Jalen's really good. I just want to start there. I think there is a chasm between the people who talked about the Celtics versus the people who actually watched them. Like Jalen in the playoffs for three rounds now, he's 25 points a game. He's shooting 54% and he's shooting 37% from three.
Starting point is 00:35:23 And he's plus 6.8 when he plays. Kyrie's averaging 23 a game and shooting 49%. And I think if you ask the normal person, be like, who's a better offensive player? They'd be like, Kyrie, 100 times out of 100. He's way better than Jalen. It's like, is he? Jalen's for the last four years of the playoffs
Starting point is 00:35:41 is averaging more points than he is. And he's a better shooter than Kyrie is at least from field goal percentage. It's at least like arguable that he could put up similar production as Kyrie but I think we've hit this point based off that last series where people are like Luka and Kyrie man, it's
Starting point is 00:35:57 unstoppable. There's no two like this in the league and Tatum and Brown have been pretty good for a long period of time and they just went 76 and 20 you know20 the entire season. To me, it counts for something. Are they one of the three most disrespected 76-20 teams of all time?
Starting point is 00:36:17 Do you agree with me that this is the best version of Jalen we've ever had and it's not close? It's not close. This is the best version of him we've ever had. My Jalen close? It's not close. This is the best version of him we've ever had. My Jalen stuff is well documented. I'm probably not as high on him as I need to be, which doesn't mean to say that I don't understand
Starting point is 00:36:31 how special he is. I cannot believe some of the shot decisions and I can't believe how often these brutal turnarounds where I'm like, that's what you're coming up with? And then it goes in. And then it just goes in. The Indiana series over and over again. Now, granted, well, they didn't have Halliburton.
Starting point is 00:36:45 Well, the Celtics didn't have Porzingis, but over and over again, they were in these close games and he made huge shots. He made a three in the corner to save game, to save game one, right? Game three and game four, he made huge plays in both of those games. He made big, he made a big shot over Turner game three. He had big plays on both ends in game four. And it's like, well, it was against the Pacers. Like at some point,
Starting point is 00:37:06 you got to give the guy some credit. I thought he should have made all NBA. I made the case. He didn't make it. But, you know, I think we've been pretty critical of him over the last few years. I think he has absolutely worked his ass off
Starting point is 00:37:18 to get stronger, to be a better two-way player. I think he's competitive as fucking shit. The fact that he won that conference finals MVP, I thought was great. I thought, I don't know whether he deserved it or Drew, but I thought it was awesome for him. Wait, you're Drew or Tatum?
Starting point is 00:37:34 I actually, I would have gone, I think I would have gone Drew second, Tatum third. You can't vote for Holiday. Oh, come on. I thought Drew was incredible in that series. Oh my God. Great plays? I just thought he was great. I thought they were very close. If just thought he was great. I thought they were very close. If any of them had won, I would have been fine with it.
Starting point is 00:37:50 Drew did not receive a vote. It was 5-4 voting for Jalen Overtake. I get it. I thought Drew was awesome. I just think the stuff Jalen has done and the chip that he has on his shoulder, which is weird. It's one of the only times ever somebody's got a massive contract and it actually turned out to be a good thing for their career.
Starting point is 00:38:10 Usually it's the other way, right? It's like, I got this massive contract. Oh my God, I got fat. Oh, I'm not working as hard. Oh, now the fans have turned on me. This is the opposite. This guy got this contract. He's been trying to justify it ever since. It's been pretty cool. He's been so good. He's been so good and I think his defense has gotten better. I think he's the primary guy defensively, but it could have more to do with Tatum having
Starting point is 00:38:37 to run more of their offense where it's kind of like the ant lesson we saw there where there's so many superstars. We're like, wait, who's SGA guarding or who's this guy guarding or how come? And you go, well, the downside is, but in the playoffs, you don't want to hear that kind of stuff. And Jalen is taking that stuff on. I also thought that Jalen had the easier defensive matchup instead of Tatum and that Tatum's gravity was impacting stuff a little bit more.
Starting point is 00:39:00 That's why I would have voted for him for Eastern Conference Finals MVP. But Jalen had the three in game one. He had the pass to White to close it out. He had the block. He just had some of these moments that I think the voters probably fell in love with there a little bit more. So I have talked about him nonstop, and I probably should look at him as somebody who's delivered in so many of these playoff moments. And the problem for him was it turned into this guy who couldn't dribble with the offhand and the Miami series got so ugly.
Starting point is 00:39:30 And that lives in a way in the internet. That's like a tattoo. It just stuck to you. But this goes back to what we talked about earlier. It's the perception of things versus what the reality of it was, right? Like if I told you Jalen from 2020 to 24, 75 playoff games versus Kyrie,
Starting point is 00:39:49 basically from 2019 to 2024, 39 playoff games, who do you think averaged more points? I think 99 people out of 100 would say Kyrie. And it's Jalen. Jalen averaged 23 points during that stretch. Kyrie averaged 22. Jalen shot 49%. Kyrie shot 45. There's this weird... And I think both of us are pretty aligned on this. It's been pretty awesome to watch Kyrie turn himself into a meaningful basketball player
Starting point is 00:40:16 again. I think over everything else, we're going to root for good basketball and more good basketball players is always going to win the day. But now people have just tossed away the last seven years and a lot of the rollerco But now people have just tossed away the last seven years and a lot of the rollercoaster ride stuff with him and all the missed games and some pretty bad playoff performances. And the way he's played in the 2024 playoffs is the best he's played in seven years. Well, we're aligned on this one.
Starting point is 00:40:39 And I fear that... We're just stating facts. Nobody wants to hear from you or I because they think it's only about the Boston thing. And I would remind everybody, I think the 2019 is one of my least favorite teams that I've ever watched and I couldn't wait for it to be over. So I do think it speaks to how we treat winning and that winning fixes everything about your perception. And it's if the rules, I don't know when this changed.
Starting point is 00:41:05 Maybe it's always been there, but it's more pronounced now. But if you're coming at people that were critical of Kyrie with this, hey, where's the apology? It's like, fuck off. Miss me with all. Like, what am I supposed to do? I'm psyched he's playing basketball again to the level that he's playing. The stuff that he is capable of doing is as unique as we've ever seen for somebody that small.
Starting point is 00:41:30 But then it's like, no, now you have to do all this other stuff. I'm like, I don't have to do any of that shit. I don't have to do any of it. Because I'm not going to. He's missed 205 games in the last seven years and was missed or hurt. Missed a postseason or was hurt in a postseason for those.
Starting point is 00:41:48 Um, I, one of the revisions history things with him is that he, I mean, it was really Dallas or bus from him last year. Cause I went back and read some of the stories. Like, did I remember this wrong?
Starting point is 00:42:00 Cause I, I remember like both of us were kind of stunned that they gave him the contract they gave because we didn't know who they were competing against so I went back there was like a possible Lakers thing but he would have to take the mid-level and then it was like he's going to do an interview with Phoenix but that was but it was after Bradley Beal right but they leaked they leaked that whole story because Shams had it where it was right before the deadline for him to opt out of the Nets contract that it was like, you better trade me because I'm going to opt out and then I'm going to go for the mid-level. And you're like, okay, cool. And the Nets call his bluff.
Starting point is 00:42:34 And then guess what? He doesn't want to give up $30 million to play for the mid-level with the Lakers. So he was on this tear of all of this stuff. It was all there. And it all deserved criticism. It just did the same way his playing right now deserves praise. But we're very odd in the way that we'll cover things at our events where it's the present good
Starting point is 00:42:55 is supposed to somehow erase all of this stuff that was real and was just, I don't know, it was kind of a pain in the ass. Dave Jomro-asky, in late June went on SportsCenter and he said, the market for Kyrie Irving, legitimate places that he would leave Dallas for that make sense that are available to him,
Starting point is 00:43:15 it's extremely limited, perhaps almost nil. The full expectation is he returns in Dallas. I don't think the money will be as much of an issue as how many fully guaranteed years are there for Kyrie Irving. That's where we were in June. And we were there because of the six years before it. And then he turned his career around and it was a gamble that they had to take because there was really no other way for them to get a major free agent. I posted on Twitter, I posted my notes from this podcast you and I did at the end of March in 2023. Remember they lost that terrible Charlotte game and they were 11th in the
Starting point is 00:43:47 West. There was like eight games left in the season. And we were like, Oh my God, they might miss the playoffs with Luca. And I had all my notes from that. And the notes were like, is Luca in one of the worst situations of any under 30 star? And I had him and LaMelo and ironically Edwards, um, stars, best players that just missed the playoffs. And it was like, there's a Barkley here. There's a Dwayne Wade here. I had that whole list too. Like we did the whole podcast thinking there was no way this was going to turn around for Dallas. And then in one of the great kind of basketball reconstructions that we've
Starting point is 00:44:20 seen starting with them losing that pick and I'm getting that pick back doing the lively trade dumping the burtons contract and they did all these things and it's it's really impressive but it was also really bleak in june and i and for some reason that's been kicked out the window um but it also helps too when we're talking about the second best player in the world at 25 years old yeah and i want to talk about him in one second. Let's take a break. Metro links and cross links are reminding everyone to be careful as Eglinton Crosstown LRT train testing is in progress. Please be alert as trains can pass at any time on the tracks. Remember to follow all traffic signals, Be careful along our tracks and only make left turns where it's safe to do so.
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Starting point is 00:46:05 It's happening now at BHP, a future resources company. To discover how, visit bhp.com slash better future. Going back to Dallas and some of the stuff they did, I went back because I was like, this Gafford-Washington thing feels unusual to me. I'm just going to go through all the seasons and try to figure out how unusual is this for a team to remake itself at the trade deadline and then it actually works. Right. So you go back, I went back to 08, the Lakers did that Pau Gasol deal,
Starting point is 00:46:33 which changed their season. They make the finals, they lose, but they make the finals. Changed their season. Yeah. I mean, it changed. It changed three years. Well, but I mean, it's specifically, they made the finals that year. They didn't win. The Celtics made a very small PJ Brown trade. That really helped them. He made a couple big shots against the Cavs.
Starting point is 00:46:51 A little tiny deal, not on the PJ Washington sense. But then, it really wasn't until 2015 when the Cavs did that. They got Shumpert and Mozgov
Starting point is 00:47:00 and J.R. Smith. They traded some picks. They didn't win that year. In 16, they got Channing Frye. But, you know, he still played for them. Smith, they traded some picks. They didn't win that year. In 16, they got Channing Frye, but he still played for them. 17, they got Korver. 18, they got Clarkson, Nance, and Hood.
Starting point is 00:47:12 They didn't win that year. This was the biggest trade deadline move that I saw that actually resulted in a finals. Same year. It was Marc Gasol in 2019 for Toronto, where they traded for him. They gave up real stuff for him. He was super impactful for them.
Starting point is 00:47:29 They ended up winning the finals. 2020, Jay Crowder, Miami. 2022, Celtics, Derek White. That helped them, I think, make the finals. And then Gafford, Washington. It's really unusual to trade around the fringes like this and get guys who can you can get 40% of your team
Starting point is 00:47:49 at crunch time basically at the trade deadline and they paid a lot I mean they definitely gave up a shitload for it and especially when you include the Grant Williams they'd give up a pick
Starting point is 00:48:00 just to sign Grant Williams right so you're talking three first round picks get those guys. But it does make me wonder our team's going to get friskier on the trade deadline going forward. Like, could this be one of those things
Starting point is 00:48:13 where people go, hey, look at what Dallas did. They got those guys. And maybe this is the new inefficiency once the rest of the decade. Because we have more parity at the top than I think we ever had. I don't think we have parity, but I think we have contender parity. Or if you have one of the decade, because we have more parody at the top than I think we ever had. I don't think we have parody,
Starting point is 00:48:25 but I think we have contender parody, where if you have one of the best eight to 10 guys in the league, you can at least, whether you're Phoenix, whether you're OKC, whether you're Philly, whether you're Mike,
Starting point is 00:48:36 whatever, you feel like you're kind of around, sniffing around the title. So I don't know. Like Miami made a play for Rozier. I guess you could say that was the East Coast version of a trade like that. But do you feel like we'll see more of those trades?
Starting point is 00:48:49 This is one of the worst trade deadlines we've ever done. Yeah, it was tough. There was that part where, remember, it was, oh my God, Bogdanovich, Bogdanovich. Look how smart the Knicks are. And they got berths. Right. And I think we were at least good enough
Starting point is 00:49:04 to give credit to Dallas when it happened, because for whatever reason, I've always really liked Gafford and then PJ's motivation to come back home and how inspired he's been throughout all this. And then on top of that, the PJ defensive assignments. PJ turning into Robert Horry? I don't remember us talking about that. No, not that part of it. I don't think anybody projected that. Big shot PJ? Right. I think this is one of those things where you look at it and go, well, does that mean next February when we're doing all the look ahead stuff, the week of the trade deadline, will front offices actually go, hey, last year we would have been on the fence, but
Starting point is 00:49:39 look what Dallas did. So let's be more motivated to do it. I don't know. I think with the second apron, I think it's possible. There's more talent just in general. So there's more of these guys when you think where the league was,
Starting point is 00:49:51 we did this in a previous pod where the league was 20 years ago, where the league was 10 years ago, just from a top 75, top 100 guys in the league standpoint, there's more guys to get. And then I think from a superstar standpoint, we have more like really
Starting point is 00:50:06 good guys than we did. You know, like all NBA guys, even the guys in that like nine to 20 range, they're just really just deeper. So you might feel like, Hey, look at the league. We've had a different champion every year since 2018. You're never that far away. Maybe it becomes more like football. Where teams are like, if we're one of the eight teams, maybe we have a chance. I don't know that I'd go that far. Maybe, maybe.
Starting point is 00:50:36 But it still seems that it ends up being some guy holding up a trophy where we're like, okay, well, that makes sense. I mean, if it's Doncic, you're going to go, okay, second. But everyone will make him the best player in the world and forget about Jokic if he's holding the trophy up. And then if Tatum's holding it up, people are going, okay, well, that makes sense. I mean, if it's Donchic, you're going to go, okay, second, but everyone will make him the best player in the world and forget about Jokic if he's holding the trophy up. And then if Tatum's holding it up, people are going to go, you know, is Tatum actually closer to one than he is five? Because that'll be what's on the shows the next day. So that's still always the guiding rule of this league. But the reason I was even hinting at the second apron, because I love thinking about the stuff that's going to happen with the second apron.
Starting point is 00:51:02 We haven't really fully experienced the cuts that are going to have with the second apron. We haven't really fully experienced the cuts that are going to have to happen where I look at bad teams with cap space, right? Like, here's a perfect example. Look at the Orlando Magic. You try to figure out like, okay, what are they going to do with their cap space? So in the past, they just for a year, a guy probably even pay him a little bit more to come to the Magic and then worry about paying all their young guys down the road. Well, now I don't know that you can really do that. If you want to keep Franz, Paolo and Suggs, which you would want to keep, and then you're paying them big money, you may go, well, wait, we actually can't do the four-year thing in free agency with somebody who's this secondary, maybe not even a secondary player, right? I think OKC's in the same boat, right? see i think that's why they wanted to do the hayward deal a little bit there where they were
Starting point is 00:51:45 clearing up some of the money and then adding the cap space but they also probably felt like maybe gordon you know offers them up some kind of shooting and play making that didn't really happen did you see what sam said about gordon yeah basically he's basically like i missed it yeah i missed it you rarely see a gm be like yeah missed it didn't work my bad yeah so i don't know if he was prioritizing what he thought he could be in a different environment outside of Charlotte, or if he was prioritizing a little bit more flexibility.
Starting point is 00:52:11 Anyway, the whole point and the whole reason I'm making this is I tie it into, will we see teams a little bit more active? I wonder if there'll be a surplus of some of these players that are margin players that become available prior to the trade deadline as owners start staring down the real restrictions that they could be facing by being a first or a second apron team.
Starting point is 00:52:32 As you look at some of these salaries, like I was looking at some of the salary stuff this morning and how many teams are already projected over the second apron for 24 and 25. Well, we have more players available because you don't feel like you can stockpile contracts the way you did in the past and it's just a question it's a theory but the math would make sense that maybe you're going to see more gaffords available so it could be just a supply part of it more so than it is the motivation to match what dallas just did counter that might only be one season and then the media deal kicks in and all the numbers go way up. And then it'll be like, yeah, not as afraid of the second apron.
Starting point is 00:53:06 I still don't understand the Gafford piece. PJ, look, I don't think there's any way to know PJ was going to turn into Robert Horry. And it was kudos to Dallas for figuring out, identifying him. But there was still no real evidence for it. Gafford was playing really well for these shitty Washington teams for years. And the house always would talk about, yeah, if anyone gets Gafford, playing really well for these shitty Washington teams for years and House always would talk about yeah if anyone gets Gafford that guy's good that guy will be like I just don't know
Starting point is 00:53:30 how the league missed that when they have these giant organizations with a bunch of scouts can we go to Tatum for a second didn't we already do that no just quickly sorry Tatum 42 club that I have
Starting point is 00:53:45 well because it ties into Luka that 42 club that I love to do points, rebounds, and assists anytime it's over 42 for a playoffs it's usually a sign something's happening so Luka is no surprise at 47 right so this goes Luka Joka, Giannis, Kawhi, Duncan
Starting point is 00:54:01 Iverson, Kobe LeBron like it's all the people you would think is on this list. There's no cheapies. By the way, I love stuff like this. I love numbers like this that just go, oh, there's not one weird name there. It's all the best players. I think when I came up with it,
Starting point is 00:54:16 I think I got to 42 because I wanted to figure out a way to cut Karl Malone out of it. And for some reason, 42 worked perfectly. And then that allowed me to get everybody in and not have them in. Your guy Barkley's there at 93, 44.5, but Tatum's on the list this year.
Starting point is 00:54:31 Tatum's at 43.3, and I do think, because Tatum, it's a weird thing, man. When it's not great, you really feel it, and I think people have been watching him for so long that they kind of do the glass half empty thing for him and there's you know we talked about this in previous pods
Starting point is 00:54:50 like there's a little Tim Duncan-itis with him too where it's just like Luca's got the swagger and he's talking shit and he goes on these heaters and it's like this is fucking cool man there's nobody like Luca nobody's ever going to be like oh, man. There's nobody like Luka. Nobody's ever going to be like, oh man, Tatum.
Starting point is 00:55:07 There's nobody like Tatum. But he's just been really, really, really high level, good and efficient for a few years here now. He's been one of the six best players in the league for three straight years. He's the best two-way forward in the league. I don't count Giannis as a forward. As you know, I count him as a, I think he's a big man. And I do wonder if like,
Starting point is 00:55:28 everyone's talking about this is going to be Luka's moment. This can be Luka's moment. There's a flip side of this where it's like, maybe this could be Jason Tatum's moment too. There's a lot of pedigree building up toward this specific series.
Starting point is 00:55:39 Some of the matchups he has, he's going to be, the rebounding is going to be huge for him. The playmaking, he's going to have to go head-to-head with Luka in a couple games. And this could be the moment for him too, one way or the other.
Starting point is 00:55:54 I know it's more fun to talk about Luka, but Tatum putting up like 29-10-8 in the finals and beating Dallas and winning the title, I don't feel like we'd have any more Tatum conversations after that. The numbers will have to be there, but all that's going to happen. It's it's,
Starting point is 00:56:12 we already hinted at it, kind of joked about it with the whole Luca thing with the belt transfer of the segment we did a week ago. But if Tatum has numbers even close to what he's just had throughout the East and they pull this off, there's going to be a big media Tatum parade because there's no other way to do the job. 27, 10, and six, and they win the title and he's the best guy in the team, then it'll be a reconsideration. Then people will start talking about him versus Kobe,
Starting point is 00:56:38 playoff points before age 27. They're like, man, Tatum might end up with a pretty amazing career here. He's going to play 200 playoff games. There's a whole bunch of checkpoints that would happen with that. The Luka thing is more fun to talk about because you're talking about this guy has a chance now to be one of the 15 best players in the history of the league. Right, but the visual thing that you mentioned is true because Tatum is like Duncan in the visual sense, probably not even as extreme as Duncan is. Kobe, for as great as he is and the resume.
Starting point is 00:57:06 And it's, it's all incredible. He's probably one of the best examples of being so visually pleasing that even in those big moments, you edit out a lot of, a lot of the bad stuff. Yeah. You just,
Starting point is 00:57:18 he presented himself as someone that in the game, like nothing was more important. And he was the one that wanted it more than everybody else. So he was, he was good at that. His big shots were awesome. Right. It was just,
Starting point is 00:57:32 it was that much fun. And, and Luca is, is certainly different visually than, than Kobe, because we're just talking about a massive gap in athleticism, but Lucas, the way he carries himself and he kind of takes on this villain now
Starting point is 00:57:46 as as the road guy and part of it's because he's just he's just once i think he steps in those lines he cannot help himself but being the biggest asshole and i think i mean that as a compliment like there's a reason why he's always getting into it with somebody and i'd certainly rather that than somebody that's passive but between the two i don't have any kind of debate where I'm like, oh, is Tatum actually better than like this in a long time like a guy who like actually seems like he likes being on the road sucking the soul out of the crowd but also the best player too is what you're talking about and you can back it up i'm saying like we're going back to like the bird magic era we're going back to like jordan this is the kind of shit that we grew up with were these guys who were like I don't care if anyone likes me,
Starting point is 00:58:45 I'm going to make shots and just start screaming at some guy sitting courtside. He was like, what's happening? I'm with my daughter. Why are you yelling at me? Just going nuts. I wrote down, he's a road quieter. There are these certain guys that are like,
Starting point is 00:59:01 I always think the great players are always on the road is always the best way to analyze them because they really thrive are like, you know, I, I always think the great players are always like on the road is always the best way to analyze them because they really thrive on like, fucking shut all these people up. It was just like, just silence. And I'm just staring around, I'm talking shit and I'm just basically pulling everybody's pants down. And as much as I love Jokic, like he, you know, Jokic is, he, he, he is who he is. Right. I don't think he's in there. I'm going to fucking shut up everybody. He just, he plays, then he goes and he, and he leaves and he goes back to his country and rides horses. Luca's like, Luca was like this. This is one of the reasons I loved him so much heading the draft. He was doing this as a 17 year old
Starting point is 00:59:39 and they were shown in those games on NBA TV. And it was unbelievable. He was going in these, in these opposing arenas where they were kind of semi-dangerous places and he's talking shit to 30-year-olds. Someone's like, who is this guy? And he's carried it ever since. So
Starting point is 00:59:57 I love thinking about Luka, the younger guy, because we've seen his dad who just is a legend, apparently just a legend. And there's a Slovenian hockey player here that is a neighbor. And I ran into some of his family members, Kopitar. And I ran into some of his family members and they were like, we were at the beach and I was talking to his family and they, all they want to talk about was luca yeah the entire time and luca this and luca that his dad it was just he's this mythical feat you know just you think about
Starting point is 01:00:30 some of these smaller countries where i think in the states we could just be like oh it's another one of those guys in that part over there and like do you realize how small some of these places are okay and now they have a guy who's potentially you know going to do this it would make sense if luca does this based on his background his upbringing and him checking boxes and being ahead of schedule as much as we fall in love with right yeah we fall in love with new and new is fun because we think it's going to be something we've never seen it before that's why the women yama stuff is so exciting but at the same time like luca keeps going like oh wait you didn't think i could do this yet you didn't think i could do this yet and that's the thing that scares the shit out of you on the south side of it because you're just going yeah this is
Starting point is 01:01:04 this guy is supposed to win a championship because all these things but when you talk about his demeanor i would love to know what he was like on the ride to game five because watching him like did he know where he's just going to those guys being like hey first quarter i'm gonna i'm gonna take their fucking souls first quarter because some of the shots he was taking it was apparent to me that he had decided I'm going to see what I can do here tonight and yeah granted he's probably feeling a certain way feels like he's a little bit more locked in he starts hitting all these deep threes and he I know it was 18 18 because Rudy was awesome on offense but it was it was just one of those moments was like man he showed up in an elimination game it was just one of those moments where it's like, man, he showed up in an elimination game
Starting point is 01:01:45 and was like, I'm not waiting around. I'm going to win it in the first 12. It reminded me of LeBron in that 2012 game six game in Boston, which was the most important game probably in his career. When he came out in the first quarter and was just making 20 footers with that crazy look on his face, it was like, oh no, this is bad. But the great guys,
Starting point is 01:02:05 they go into a game and they're like, I'm fucking taking this in the first quarter. It was awesome. He, uh, he would have a chance here. It's interesting for the youngest finals MVPs. Um,
Starting point is 01:02:20 he'd be in the top 12 youngest. He's 25. It's a pretty good list. There's some guys like Magic's on it twice. Kareem, Tim Duncan, Dwayne Wade, Bill Walton. There's some weird ones too, like Dumars and Maxwell and DJ, but Giannis was 26.
Starting point is 01:02:38 Duncan was 26 the second time he won. It's more conceivable than I thought as I was doing the research. I was like, man, Lucas seems young. And it's like, nah, it's actually, this is right around the time, especially if he's somebody who has a chance to be a top 15 or 20 guy ever, which I think we're on pace now. It's still kind of young though. It's 25 in February. It's a little young, but it's not crazy. I think two years ago in the 22 playoffs, when he went against the Warriors in the conference finals. If they had made it that year,
Starting point is 01:03:05 that would have been, whoa, he's 22 that we're doing this now. A little like LeBron in 07. We're like, whoa, we're doing this now. This feels maybe a year early, but it's around when it should have happened, I think. He's so good. Yes. Because LeBron felt early, not to say that we didn't realize how good LeBron, but that's still, when you look at the rest of it, especially when you look at Dallas, granted, we've already talked about it. You've got to put this dividing line between who they were and who they became, and it's only gotten better. But the issue I had was just navigating the landmines of the West, and I still couldn't get there with them. And as I watched the Minnesota series, I went, hey, this might be the simple stuff. If you're really going to try to build a playoff team
Starting point is 01:03:51 that can go deep, you need two on-ball creators. You can't just have one. And that was the difference between Minnesota and Dallas. Do you think Denver would have beaten them? I would have said that, but I'm not going to do it to Dallas anymore. I've already been too disrespectful by not picking him. And by the way, I don't know that I've ever picked against a team
Starting point is 01:04:09 four straight rounds. Miami doesn't count last year. I picked against them four times. So I doubt there'll have ever been a time where I picked against a team in four straight playoff rounds and they actually won the NBA title. Like last year, Miami-Denver was easy to pick because I still thought the Celtics series was one of the flukiest things we've ever seen. But that'll be- I had them over the Clippers. I had them over the Clippers in round one. And then I thought, okay, so he was going to beat them. To be fair, more because of how injured
Starting point is 01:04:38 Luca was. Yeah. Once Leonard was out, I went, okay, well, now I'm not taking the Clippers. So I guess there's a technicality there, but when I thought Kawhi was going to play and be healthy the whole time, um, well, yeah, I don't know that I can ever think of a team that I'll, I've, when the series started, went, okay,
Starting point is 01:04:57 I'm going to pick against them and they won a title. So, that would be a new one for me. I'll feel pretty proud about that. One other thing, Dan Shaughnessy wrote about... The curse of the Bambino? No, the Celtics have a chance to end a drought. I think it was tongue-in-cheek, but I couldn't tell. Boston title drought.
Starting point is 01:05:17 Let's talk about it. Haven't won a title since February 2019. It's been five years and four months. So he was having fun with it, but it is the Boston teams won 12 titles from February 2002 to February 2019. No titles in five and a half years.
Starting point is 01:05:34 Apparently, it's a trap. I think he was kidding. Depends on what your standard is. I think he was kidding. I'm going to give you my favorite thing that I heard over the last couple of days. I was driving back from work because we did rewatchables on Friday and I was flipping around on the serious and that show speak was on Fox. And one of the topics was if Dallas wins the title, is Kyrie the best sidekick of all time?
Starting point is 01:06:02 And one of the guys made the case, yes, but he prefaced it. And it was something I could, I was driving on the highway, so I couldn't write this down, but he said something like, look, I know Scottie Pippen has six titles, but if, if Dallas wins this, Kyrie would have two. And then he went, and I'm like, whoa. So we're tossing out 1986, Kev McHale, who is the best defensive center in the league and shot 60% in the playoffs in 26 and 10. We're tossing out 2001 Kobe. We're just going to toss away sidekicks now
Starting point is 01:06:35 and Kyrie just because he looked good in a couple rounds is now we're talking about him and the historical great sidekicks ever. It was Friday. It was really great. Yeah, that's. That's the part like people have lost their mind, I think, in the Kyrie conversation.
Starting point is 01:06:50 I just think they have. He's really fun to watch. I get it. He's super fun to watch. He scored 16 a game against Oklahoma City. Yeah, he was fun to watch. I get it. But and Jalen is just nobody's going to be like,
Starting point is 01:07:01 watch this Jalen Brown mixtape for six minutes. But Jalen scored more points than him in the playoffs we're going to end part one we're going to bring in Brian Curtis for part two thanks to Russella thanks to Steve Cerruti and Kyle Creighton as well and
Starting point is 01:07:17 part two is going to come up a little bit later on Sunday but this was part one thanks for listening. Must be 21 plus, 18 plus DC I'm a person, never a thing. I don't have to be. Must be 21+, 18+, D.C., and present in select states. Fandle, offering online sports wager in Kansas under an agreement with Kansas Star Casino, LLC. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit Fandle.com slash RG.
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