The Bill Simmons Podcast - Part 1: The Reeling Nuggets, Embiid’s MVP Case, and CP3’s Journey With Jackie MacMullan

Episode Date: April 15, 2021

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Jackie MacMullan to discuss the "grind" of being three-quarters through the NBA season, Jamal Murray's injury, the Phoenix Suns, Rajon Rondo's impact on the Clippers, updated MVP candidates, the 76ers, the Brooklyn Nets, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, you know, it's a great thing to have when the Yankees are collapsing in mid-April, which seems to be happening right now. It's a New York sports podcast. It's called New York, New York with John Jastrzemski. He is on there at least three times a week. Plus he's doing some emergency podcasts too. You know, like this week when, I don't know, say the Yankees are already collapsing and it's mid-April. Oh my God. I love it so much. New York, New York with John Jastrzemski. You can find it on the Ringer Podcast Network. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too.

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as well as the Ringer Podcast Network where we put up a brand new rewatchables on Monday night, Manhunter. Yet another Michael Mann movie, one of the great action thrillers, in my opinion, of all time. Certainly one of the first influential action thrillers ever, but you can check that out.

Also, me and Dave Jacoby, we're breaking down Challenge Double Agents on The Ringer Dish Feed. This was the penultimate episode this week. I'm kind of sad. I really like seeing Jacoby every week. Next week will be the season finale you can hear on Ringer Dish

where you can also hear every episode of every single album with Taylor Swift, which was a fantastic podcast with Nora Princiati and my friend Nathan Hubbard. Did a great job. The Swifties loved it. So there you go. So we did a double podcast this week.

We're doing, this is part one, NBA, me and Jackie Mack. And then part two is going to be Warren Sharp. It's just been a great day. I've been doing podcasts. Oh my God. Somebody just homered on the Red Sox. Now it's seven to one. This has just been a great day. I've been working all day doing podcasts. Oh, Verdugo again. My God. Yeah. You're hearing me in live time react to a Red Sox homers, but, uh, working all day. And then the Red Sox winning these two seven inning games with this stupid rule that we have seven inning double headers. But when your team is winning the seven inning double header, it seems like the greatest rule of all time. The Red Sox, I think this will be nine straight. My God.

And I feel like I've watched a lot of it. I'm just back with baseball. I cut it off last year. I was so upset with the Mookie Betts trade. And I just was like, out. I'm like, this is it. I might've outgrown baseball. I got my four World Series titles amount. But this year, the rhythm of the season, everything turned with that JD Martinez hit right over the Tampa Bay right fielder where he seemed like he kind of misplayed it or Rosarina. But we win the game on that and the winning streak started and it's nice to have baseball back. It's nice to have a team with dugout chemistry. Somebody hits a home run, they're wheeling them around in a cart. It's nice to

have a team with bullpen arms. Evaldi looks like he's good. Alex Cora is back. And you take this Red Sox team that was 20 to one to win the AL East before the season. And I don't know, I've watched a lot. I've watched more baseball than basketball the last week and a half. I think they're the best team in the AL East. Plus they, they have Chris Sale coming back to put in the Martin Perez spot. I'm fired up. I'm excited. The Red Sox, this reminds me of 2013. Just the lowest of low expectations. And then you watch them for a couple of weeks and you're like, oh my God, this team's actually good. Plus the Yankees are in complete chaos. Go to New York, New York with John Jastrzemski to check that out. But I love that the Yankees, the pitching staff is completely overrated, which anyone with half a brain could have probably guessed.

But this is great. Baseball is back. The Red Sox are good again. We have good chemistry. We have our manager back. I fucking love it. Coming up, part one, me and Jackie Mack talking NBA. And then part two will be on a separate podcast,

which we'll be putting up right after. Me and Warren Sharpe talking NFL. This is me and Jackie Mack. It's all then part two will be on a separate podcast, which we'll be putting up right after me and Warren sharp talking NFL. This is me and Jackie Mack. It's all coming up next first project. All right, Jackie McMullen is here, the Hall of Famer from ESPN. We are 75% of the way through an NBA season that suddenly feels like a slog. People complaining. I should be wearing all black today for my boy Jamal Murray, man. Yeah, let's start there.

So that happens Monday night. I was watching because I want to see if Steph Curry could get 60 points. The last five minutes is super disjointed. Denver just kind of won't go away, so they have to keep the starters out. And then he clearly gets badly hurt and he's rolling around. There's no fans. You can actually hear him, you know, the whole thing. And this feels like this killed

two Denver seasons, not one. Because by the time... Very true. By the time he comes back, will be, I don't know, March, April. The ACL stuff is usually 11 to 13 months, but they'll be in the swing of the playoffs. They'll be on a minute restriction.

And this was a team that I was feeling like was a little sleepery. My biggest question with them was their bench, but I thought the Gordon trade, they had the makings of something and now that's sideways. But what was your reaction? You just did a big story about him. Yeah, just gut-wrenching because he was out before. He missed, I think, three or four games for rest on the other knee. I mean, this is a kid that just plays through everything. And it's his biggest strength and his biggest weakness, which the team had to sometimes protect him from himself, which is what they were doing, which is why he was sitting out with that. I just go back to what he told me in that story about how he felt like he was like in a groundhog day. It was

every, every day was an AAU tournament, except for it never ended. And that, that, that quote really sticks in my head. I know the league is sending out data that says there aren't any more injuries this year than other years that, you know, the games are maybe there's a few more games, you know, space in between games and all that. But I don't know. There are very, very high profile injuries to people that don't normally get injured this year. And it just feels to me like we knew that this could happen. We knew that the, you know, the COVID curse is what I call it.

Just having to come back so soon. Again, I'll stress it again. All those players thought they were coming back in January, and then all of a sudden they weren't. And if nothing else, professional athletes are creatures of habit that plan their training and ramp up, especially older players like LeBron. They ramp up their training with a certain date in mind. And I just will never know.

Also, small thing that people don't talk about is how long it takes to test for COVID. It's just not like, oh, hey, come on in here. There's a procedure. It takes time. It cuts into the free time, the very little bit of a pall over this season. I mean, if you put a team together of players that have had major injuries this year, you'd win the NBA championship, right? You'd have LeBron, AD, Harden, Durant, Kyrie, Jamal Murray. I mean, I know I've missed somebody. Michael Porter Jr., Jason Tatum. Who have I missed? I mean, there's a lot of them. And you just wonder.

Wonder what it all means, you know? Yeah, I'm torn on this because, like, they were playing six games in nine days, basically, during this stretch where post-All-Star break, the numbers are higher. Like, I think it's like 3.7 or 3.75 games per week for every team, which is definitely higher. On the other hand, I think everybody's a lot better at managing minutes. This isn't, this isn't, you know, what was going on even in the 99 season, the, uh,

the strike season when you just saw some teams really wear out because how physical the game was, um, they had just less stuff to think about back then that we're really good at now. Going from the hyperbaric chambers and infrared light on injuries and these specific physicians that can look at somebody's, the way they stand

and whether their body's a little bit off, all this stuff. To me, the Murray injury, I think happens in any season because he was playing hurt. He obviously had an issue with the other leg, right? And that so often happens where you have the building, the structure of the building gets knocked off. You have a problem on one side of your body and then ends up putting more stress on the other body. So I don't know. I just feel like we have major injuries every year. What's different about this year to me is the minor injuries. You know, the LeBron thing would have happened any year. Somebody fell into his leg.

He's getting hurt no matter what season we're playing on. I guess so, but he never does, but he never does. I mean, you know, that's the thing. Like you're right in every case, but it doesn't usually, I mean, and we haven't even talked about like way early. You forget about Markel Fultz. Cause that happened so long ago. Right. Doesn't that feel like that opened to a whole nother season? Yeah.

I mean, that happened right out of the gate. Jonathan Isaac, you know, well, I'm looking at like that, like a Jimmy Butler who has just been banged up this whole year. And even last night I was watching,

he got hurt. He came back in, but it seems like, especially for the final four teams from last year, they're really banged up. And it makes sense to me because we were playing finals games in, I don't even know, what was it? End of October?

Mid-October? Early October? Ridiculous, whatever it was. And you see, Toronto has had some stuff too. They got decimated by COVID. Toronto kind of had a little thing going on and Nick Nurse was coaching his rear end off and then COVID hit them and just wiped them out.

And they're trying to recover now, but I don't know. I guess anything's possible even though how many games do we have left? We're in the teens now. We're in the teens. We're three-fourths through the season. And this is normally like in a normal season.

This would be right around when March Madness starts when everybody's just kind of, it's like a week too early to talk about MVP. Right. And it's two weeks early to talk about playoff matchups, but everybody's just kind of like, all right, let's get to the playoffs, which I'm feeling now.

The thing I've really noticed is the quality of basketball seems to be down. There was one night, I think it was Friday or Saturday night where every game was 15 points or more. It was the final. Every single game was a blowout. It seems like there's more blowouts and more teams that are basically bailing on the game midway through the game or two thirds of the way through the game that I can remember.

And I think everybody has the same mindset. Let's just, let's just get to the play either. Let's get to the playoffs or let's get to the end of the season. If we're not a playoff team. Well, you know, and it's interesting or ironic, even that Celtics nuggets game,

which is probably the biggest win of the Celtics season. You know, you'll get, she's getting into with the refs a little bit. Michael Malone makes the decision. I mean, that game is still within reach for the nuggets, especially against the Celtics.

So here's, you know, her historic and the amount of leads they blow. Oh my God. Yeah. Right. They almost did it last night. makes the decision. I mean, that game is still within reach for the Nuggets, especially against the Celtics, who are historic in the amount of leads they blow. Oh, my God. Right? They almost did it last night. Right, and he took Jokic out, you know, and he sat him down. And I thought everyone, you know, the announcers were questioning,

and I'm like, no, no, that's smart, because he's going to get teed up and tossed or maybe teed up and saying something and get suspended. He's tired. He's playing too many minutes. At that point, Jokic wasn't playing. I mean, Murray was still out from the other knee. So I understood why Michael Malone did that. But under normal circumstances, you'd kind of scratch your head a little bit. But the heat, you look at the heat and you keep waiting, right? You

keep waiting for Tyler Hero to be Tyler Hero. And maybe that's too much for us to ask for a kid who's only in his second year. But Bam Adebayo is just another guy right now, it feels like to me. And I love Bam Adebayo. And I know he's better than that. And so what's going on there? Is he nicked up? You know, there's just, you look around.

And then yet the Clippers, they're like playing as well as they have been again. Yet Kawhi is out. And now, like whenever anybody sits, I mean, we're taping tonight, and the Nets and the Sixers are playing, and Durant's out, and people are barking about that. I'm like, are you kidding me? I'd keep him out. After what?

He's just come back, back-to-back. Are you kidding me? He's sitting. I'll sit him as much as I need to until we get to the playoffs. I'm not going to criticize any team at this, at that point, at this point for doing that. Well, did you see Stevens's quote about, we're always going to prioritize the health of our players over what the playoff seat is? He basically came out and said it like we're making the playoffs anyway. We don't really care what seed, and especially this season where you don't even really have

the whole kind of home court advantage that you'd have had in other years that's why i thought the cuban quotes were so weird well they're so cuban cuban does this thing well he does this thing where he kind of tries to it usually happens when they're not playing well he just he does this throw everyone off the scent controversy he he just kind of goes off and he's basically saying, this is stupid. This is too hard on our players. But ironically, he's saying this right as they're playing terribly. Well, you know what I think he was doing? That's an old Gino Ariema trick. When he feels pressure for his players coming on, he deflects and takes the pressure himself. He did it all the time. If they lost a big game or they were under scrutiny, he would say something outrageous,

usually about Pat summit. So everyone would talk about that and stop looking at his players. And I feel like that's what Cuban did. Cause Donchic is the first one that brought this up and then Cuban just piled on. And so then everybody started, started talking about Cuban cause he's the owner, you know?

Right. So I don't, so that, that might just be taking one for your, your player. I don't know, but I mean, it's kind of,

it kind of rings hollow, doesn't it? Rings a little hollow to me. I thought it was lame. He voted for it. It was unanimous. He voted for it because he didn't think his team was going to be anywhere near seventh place. I'm sure of that. Well, and then Luca is complaining about the playing games and

saying like you play all year and then you in two games you could be out. It's like, yeah, that's why it's really good to be one of the top six teams. Right. See, I don't disagree. I don't disagree with him, honestly. I'm not a big fan of the play-in for the reasons Luca says, but I would, it would hold a lot more weight with me if a team in third place was saying it instead of the seventh place team, you know, where like, like if Jason Tatum or Jalen Brown said something like that, people would jump all over them, you know? Yeah. Well, the reality is Dallas hasn't been that good and they're probably going to be the seventh place team. It's, you know, that the West has

been 60. Dallas has had a lot of excuses. We kept waiting for them to turn it on. It hasn't really happened. And now we're in a position, Denver is the fourth seed right now as we're heading in, we're taping this for Wednesday's games. I think Denver probably drops because I thought their bench was weak anyway, and it was really a team that was as good as their best four or five, and now taking Murray out. I just don't know how you replace the Murray offense. Well, what you do is, I mean, Monte Morris is probably one of the best kept backup guard secrets in the league.

He doesn't get nearly enough attention for he's pretty good. He's really good. Now, he's not going to score the way Jamal Murray scores. Porter has been on an absolute tear, a post-COVID tear. A bender. You can't even like unbelievable. And this is probably who I mean, this is who we thought he was. So you wonder if Compazzo, who really hasn't fit in with them.

There was a lot of hype about him coming on and maybe he can pick up, maybe he can get comfortable enough. He never, I watched Denver a lot and he never looks quite comfortable to me. Maybe now he can find a comfort level cause he's going to get extra minutes. You know, I think Mark, Mike was starting him when Murray was out with the other injury. And probably cause he wants some punch off his bench to bring Monty Morris in, but Monty Morris makes the most sense.

Will Barton had a little bit of a resurgence after that trade. You know, he's looked good too. So, I mean, and Jokic has been the MVP. Now, it's interesting. What will that do to his chances? I'm sure he doesn't care. He doesn't care about that kind of stuff. But, I mean, his usage percentage was already, I don't know, in the 36%.

I mean, I think the only one whose usage percentage was higher was Doncic in the whole league. I think Jokic is second. But here's the real thing with Murray. That two-man game, Jokic lives for it. And if you look, I don't have him in front of me. There's splits with Jokic and Murray on versus both of them off. But it'd blow your mind. And Jokic on, Jokic off, yes.

Mariano and Mariano, yes. But the two of them together when they're running that two-man game, that's Jokic's comfort zone. This is really going to affect him as well as his entire team. So you certainly wonder how they stay afloat. I don't know.

Aaron Gordon was a nice pickup for them. Gordon's been good for them. I agree. You do this thing after a major injury where you kind of start to go glass half full like two days later. Well, maybe. And it's like,

nah, they're not winning the West without Jamal Murray. No way. If anything, it might be a team that teams are jockeying to play. You know,

when we get to like the last four days and teams start trying to be like, oh, I kind of want to be the five seed and go against Denver. I want to be the three seed. That would be the team out of the top six. I'd want to play them. I wouldn't want to play Portland more than them. I wouldn't want to play basically anyone else.

Dallas, maybe. But Dallas, you're in a situation where Luka can just knock you out by himself. I guess Jokic could too. Yeah, but J, you're in a situation where Luka can just knock you out by himself. I guess Jokic could too. Yeah, but Jokic can too. I think the thing about Murray that if you're around that team, you know, he's their emotional heartbeat. He's Marcus Smart with a much higher skill set. And I mean that with just all the heart.

And they look to him. He's great with everybody and Jokic too. But he's their emotional leader. And when you lose those guys, it's like ripping the heart out of the team. I feel bad for him. I really thought they had a chance to win the West. I really did. I did too. I was looking at their odds for the West and they were actually higher than I expected because I thought they were like the stealth sleeper of the whole conference, especially if Davis, you know, if Davis is a hundred percent,

the Lakers are the heavy favorites and they should be. Yeah. You certainly feel that way. Yeah. Where do you stay? Where do you stay on Phoenix? I did a whole thing on my pod about them on Thursday about, I'm just a believer.

I think there, there's a lot of teams they match up with really nicely in a series. The Lakers not being one of them, but have you talked to yourself into them yet? I have a little bit. I'm actually hoping to do a little story in Phoenix here. They're very popular, so they're hard to get a hold of at the moment, but I'm hopeful. First of all, I was thinking about Chris Paul, who you think goes to the boneyard in OKC, and you're like, man, what a way for his career to end here. And then he has

this amazing year with them, and then he ends up in Phoenix. It's just incredible. And, you know, Monty Williams, who I think is a really, really good coach who doesn't get enough credit, one of the many who doesn't get enough credit. He was saying to me that how that, you know, he just always wanted another chance to coach Chris Paul. He only coached him one year. I had forgotten that. Byron Scott was Chris Paul's coach in the beginning. I always think of Monty as multi-years with him and he wasn't. So he was psyched to get another chance at him. So the question becomes, you know, he and Booker, Chris Paul and Booker seemed to have figured it out because that would have been when Chris Paul went there in the beginning. That was one of my

big questions. Can these two coexist in a way that, because Chris Paul's ball dominant and so is Devin Booker, but it, so Booker's numbers are down a bit, but they're winning and he seems great about it. So those two seem great. So then it comes down to, you know, is DeAndre Ayton, can he do it? Does he have what it takes to, you know? Because the rest of their lineup, you know, they're kind of a sneaky deep team.

I like the Cams. I like both Camerons. You know, those guys are helpful. They, you know, I like their team. Now, I think they're probably a big wing player away. Maybe we could say that about every team in the NBA, that big, strong wing player, two-way player, you know, maybe that puts them over their top. So can they come out of the West? I don't know. I can't say that. I really like what they've done,

but do I like them enough to say they're going to come out of the West? I don't know if I can go that far. If we're in a non-100% Davis world, I think they could. Just because I think it evens out after that. When I did my thing about, I did a whole thing about Phoenix

and I forgot to mention this part with Chris Paul. The chance to basically completely change your legacy as an older point guard on a team like this, right? Which has some history in the league. Oscar goes to Milwaukee. He wins a title with Kareem. Tiny Archibald ends up in Boston and wins with the 81 Celtics. Ryan Howard.

Well, no, I was thinking guards. I'm just thinking pure point guards. Rondo last year was the third best guy for the Lakers in the whole playoffs. And then I think Kidd's probably the last one in 2011. I think the difference with Chris Paul is at this point of his career and those other four is,

I think he's still like a top 15 to 20 guy. Tiny, Tiny could get there when he, and I still think they win in 82 if he doesn't get hurt, but, um, Tiny could get there for stretches. He couldn't do it game after game after game. And then those other guys I mentioned, um, they were just at different points of their careers. Right. I'm not sure Chris is at a different point of his career. It feels to me like he's still getting to the same spots he wants to get to.

He's still as efficient as he was. Maybe he's not as ball dominant as he was in 2012. Right. But that's actually good for this team. Yeah. I feel like he's 90 90 what he was yeah and it's interesting because if you go back to houston you know he had that catastrophic injury which we all talk about one hamstring away which i still believe if he's healthy i still think they go

and then the next year yeah things you know you're like oh maybe he's done maybe he's lost a step maybe maybe maybe all these things. But then he went to Oklahoma City, and everyone's talking about Phoenix. But I say, go look a year ago. Chris Paul showed up like a professional with all these teams. That team was going nowhere by design, right? And you listen to Shea Gilgis Alexander talk about him

and their respect and the reverence he has for him. And I really think that's where people were like, oh, yeah, all that talk about Chris Paul. Why is everybody dogging Chris Paul? He's been really good for this young team. And then Phoenix takes him on. And I love what's going on there. And, you know, his mid-range game is his mid-range game, right? You almost feel like it's automatic.

He still does some of the histronics I could do without, drawn fouls, the flopping, you know, all that. But that's just part of the package. I see less of that this year than almost any other year he's played. I've been really impressed. And you're right. The Oklahoma City season, where they basically came within one play of advancing in the second round, and then who knows?

Amazing. No expectations. city season where they basically came within one play of advancing the second round and then who knows no expectations but i think what's cool about him especially in a big game you could feel it in that utah game last week because that was the one of the only games this year that really felt like a playoff game where you're like oh i could imagine watching a game seven of this and it's guess what it's really nice to have chris paul at games like that. He knows exactly what he's going to do. He got great shots. And really the guy who let them down a couple of times that game was Booker. It wasn't Chris. But if I'm in a situation where Donovan Mitchell

is on one side and Chris and Booker on the other side, and it's like, who's going to get better shots these last three minutes? Like, I'm going with Phoenix. I just am. And same thing with Denver. And you go on down the line, it's like there's just,

you're running out of teams in the West until you get to the Lakers. I guess the Clippers would be the other one. Man, they're playing well. Yeah, they're playing great. I want to talk about the Rondo thing, but let's take a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this

November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. So Rondo's been up and down since he joined the Clippers, but there's been moments where you can kind of see where it's going to go. And I think that the reason I thought that trade was important for them long-term, the ball moves with him. The ball didn't move with that team. It was your turn, my turn, his turn. Now it's my turn again. And it's just people standing around watching each other. And that doesn't happen with him. He's going to move. If he doesn't have the ball, he's going to be up to stuff, but he's going to try to keep things moving. And I do think they need him. And I do think he plays crunch time for them. What do you think watching so far? Oh yeah. A hundred percent. In fact, someone, someone told me that he was there like

15 minutes and there was some, you know, they're in the locker room or something. And some of the guys were arguing about a play and Rhonda goes, yeah, no, you're wrong. He's right. And they're all looking at him and he goes, right here. He had it on film because he's got that memory. He's probably listening to them arguing, called it up and said, no, you're wrong he's not that kind of guy, but that's why Paul George said what he said about him being in the five minutes that he's been here, what a leader he is, because he's, he's not trying to impress anybody. Like if you don't know who he is by now, then he can't be bothered, you know? So if you want to learn from him, here I am. If you don't, you're lost, not mine. And, and you know, when the game's on the line, because, and he hates playoff Rondo, but it's just real. We know it is. The numbers tell us beyond a shadow of the doubt, it's real because he gets into those big moments and he has

this photographic memory and this muscle memory and he gets into those big moments and there's no fear in big moments. All the superstars have always told me the same thing. Jordan in particular, he said, you know, if I miss a shot, I'm never missing because I'm scared or because I was surprised because I have prepared for every single way that someone might guard me. And I think that's what Rondo's like. Now, he doesn't have the skill set, obviously, of a Jordan or any of these other, you know, top 10 of all time superstars, but he does have the brain of them.

And so nothing is a surprise to him. Anything he sees in a playoff game now, chances are he's seen it before. And not only does he know how to react, he knows how to put you in a position where you can react accordingly. And that's just invaluable. And it's funny, we were just talking about Chris Paul a minute ago, and those two don't like each other at all, as we remember. I can't wait for that in the playoffs. Right, right. But you know why two don't like each other at all as we remember I can't wait for that in the playoffs oh yeah but you know why they don't like each other because they're the same darn person I mean Paul's more talented obviously Paul's a hall of famer we can argue about Rondo in a minute if we like different kind of ballot right

but he'll make it because everyone makes it okay fair. Fair point. But my point is they are so much alike because they both have never been wrong a day in their life, a minute in their life, either one of them. They've always been right. Tell our listeners the genesis of why they don't like each other. Well, I think it's because of what I just said, but there was that game. No, there was a game.

There were trade rumors initially. Right. But then the game was it was it didn't even start out with them right there was a little scuffle underneath and rondo and paul got this close and i mean you've seen the zapruder slow motion photograph i mean rondo spit at him now rondo says it was inadvertent spittle. No, I'm going 10 years earlier. I'm going to the late 2000s. Because remember, there was that rumor that Danny was going to try to... He's been trying to get Chris Paul his entire career, Danny. And he got out there, but then they had a game and they got in the game.

And basically, from that moment on, they've hated each other. That led to the spitting thing. Right. But they both play in a playoffs. Yeah, but they both are the same. That's why they hate each other. Both know-it-alls. And by the way, they do know-it-all, both of them, when it comes to basketball. And they drive coaches crazy. They have a common denominator in Doc Rivers wanted to throw both of them into the Charles River by the time he was done. Well, I don't know. What's the river in LA? There's no river in LA. Where would he throw them? Onto the freeway, I guess. LA River. You can go with that. Okay. The LA River. It's a thing that exists.

You know, Doc, someday when they're both retired and he's patched things up, which I think he has with both of them. I think he and Ronda were great now. And I think he and Chris Paul, if they aren't yet, will be someday. It would just be a blast someday to get Doc in a room interviewing those two. I would pay money to see that. It would just be a blast someday to get Doc in a room interviewing those two. It would be, I would pay money to see that. It would be great. Doc and point guards. Was there a point guard he got along with? Let's go backwards. Okay. Well, no. Out of the good ones, the answer is no. Well, I think he pushed him because he was a point guard and he pushes him. Yeah. But I don't,

like, I think he and Rondo are fine now. I don't know about him and Chris Paul. They weren't fine when I did that rocket story with Chris when he first got there. I'll tell you, how bad the Clippers chemistry, all that ascension with that team, was actually kind of underrated and underreported. Okay. But it wasn't all Chris Paul's fault. No, I think it was, I think there were five, six people involved with it.

And also it was a really dysfunctional organization. So you have to add that piece of it too. But I think, because I remember talking about it on TV, like that, you know, at some point during that, like Blake and Chris and- Blake and DeAndre.

Yeah, and then they would get mad. It'd be like, well, where's this coming from? And it's like, what do you mean? Where's this coming from? Everybody knows.

What are you guys trying to hide? You guys don't like each other. You know, my favorite, favorite moment of the Rondo, Chris Paul beef was though, was when, um,

you know, after the spitting thing, which was like, then it was way out in the open. And then I know someone started like ragging on Chris Paul. I forget who it was. And then big I don't know, someone started like ragging on Chris Paul. I forget who it was. And then Big Baby of all people comes out and says, Chris Paul's a bad teammate.

And I was like, oh, dude. Yeah, that was sad. No, thank you, but no. You must not weigh into this. You can't, no pun intended. This is not your, no. You don't have the right to go there. You just really don't.

Well, I'll tell you this. J.J. Greta loves him still to this day. He and J.J., they got each other. That is probably going to be a round two playoff series. Because I think Phoenix is pretty locked into two. I think somebody would have to get hurt. I'm not saying they've clinched it, but they... What are they, 15 losses?

15, do you have it in front of you? 15 losses or something? So you have it in front of you? 15 losses? Yeah. So heading into tonight's game, Phoenix is 39-15. The Clippers are 38-18. And Phoenix is just... They're winning 85-90% of their games now.

And they're not going to lose that lead unless somebody gets hurt. Clippers are interesting now, though. They've got my attention again because I got so burned by them last year. I'm like, no, I am not falling for this ever, ever, ever again. I'm not falling for the Clippers. No, I will not believe in them. And I will say that we were going to talk about today on the round the horn. We didn't, we got sidetracked, but I was looking up their defensive numbers and that is still what's flummoxes me. Like their defensive rating, they're still 10th

in the league. And then I was against uh points in the paint scored against them they're like 16th in the league like how is that possible when you've got pat beverly paul george kawaii leonard just to name three why are they so bad defensively not bad but that's not fair they're not bad defensively but why aren't they better defensively. Not bad, but that's not fair. They're not bad defensively. But why aren't they better defensively? Why? I think they need the Rondo piece because I just gave up on Lou Williams last year and I think

the Clippers did too. I've given up on Beverly. He's been hurt a lot too. He's been hurt way too much. I don't think he's reliable. Honestly, he's like that dude on the hockey team who can't stop getting a terrible penalty with five minutes left. You know, it's like, Oh man, he got another slashing penalty when, right. When we didn't need it. But I think ultimately I don't feel like he's going to be a factor for them when they're actually

trying to do stuff. It hasn't been this year for sure. No, I think the ship has kind of sailed on him, but so that's why Rondo is so important for them. And then Paul George had that toe thing. And it's like, I'm never going to be the same this season. You start thinking, oh, here we go. Paul George, excuse time. Excuse karaoke with Paul George. But then he looked awesome the last couple of games.

So it's like, so does your toe hurt or does it not hurt? Because you destroyed Indiana last night. But then he said, well, I didn't want to use it as an excuse. So I said to myself, I got to stop using it. He's like, the thing I like about this new Paul George is he just tells us everything he's thinking. I kind of like it. It's a stream of consciousness. I don't know if I would like it if I was the Clippers PR person. Well, of course not.

But that's not our concern. He definitely leads the league in excuses. Because this year he used the, I had too much coffee before the game and I was dizzy and I couldn't play excuse. But yeah, look, I feel the same. It's up to him,

right? Don't you, it all matters. It's all up to him. In my mind, everybody else. I have an idea of what they're going to do. It's all up to him,

what he does, whether they can be the team we thought they were going to be. Is it fair? That's too much pressure. I don't know if that's too much pressure, but you know, it's supposed to be one I don't think that's too much pressure. I don't know if that's too much pressure, but, you know, he's supposed to be one of the best two-way players in the game.

Is it fair that I just don't trust him and he's going to have to prove to me that he can do this? No, I think you and I are on the same page. Yeah, we're both on the same page, 100%. And that doesn't mean he can't do it. He certainly has the capability, the ability to do it.

And I did feel bad i was hard on him like everybody else last year when he you know had that disappearing act and then but then he started talking about the mental toll it took on him in the bubble and then i felt a little bad because i i think that stuff is real and i think it affected a lot of players uh not just him and again he was at least courageous enough to talk about it, which I appreciated. So then I felt a little bad. You know, I feel bad. I always feel bad after I crush somebody.

Can we, well, I mean, he was talking a big game. So I think part of it is- Playoff pee. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. If you're going to talk the talk and then you don't walk the walk, you can't then throw the excuses around.

Two quick Eastern questions. In your opinion, what happened to Ben Simmons offensively? Why have we gone backwards? Have we gone backwards? Yeah, I feel like we have. Because he's not shooting threes? I'm starting I feel like we have. Because he's not shooting threes? I just am starting to feel like this might be just who he is.

Because he had that, remember he had that Utah game. Right. And you're going, oh, so this is what it looks like when Embiid's not there. This is what Houston missed. Right, right. But then I just feel like since the All-Star break, he has been a borderline liability them offensively defensively he's the best player in the league and he's correct to say that he wants

defense I like that I like that I thought that was super spicy I also like that he said the stuff about the Nets and said they still have to do it there's only one ball I kind of liked all of that yeah I did and I so I don't know I've spent a lot of time with Ben. I've written about him a lot. And I just guess I'm at the point where I'm like, when I watch him play, my expectations offensively are just adjusted, permanently adjusted. So when he has a game like Utah,

I'm pleasantly surprised. But should he shoot threes? Yeah, he probably should. He, if he wanted to, he could shoot 34% from the three point line. There's no doubt in my mind, but he's one of these guys who's a perfectionist and he doesn't want to shoot threes unless he's going to shoot, you know, 40%. So that's a weakness. That's a, like, is it a weakness? I don't know. Perfectionist. That's what he is. So I, I, you know, I, it's hard for me to say. I, I, I still think the way they're constructed, they can do some damage. Can they beat Brooklyn? Who knows? We don't even know what Brooklyn is because they're never together on

the floor together. We know that when they're together, they're historic offensive. They're going to break every single record, you know, offensive record, the Brooklyn Nets. So is that enough to get them out of the East? Maybe. But I don't know. Joel Embiid's on such a mission. And the only thing I thought was interesting was about Ben's comments was,

I'm sure Joel Embiid was like, hey, wait a minute. I'm the defensive player of the year. Right, right. That was a really interesting thing about that. But, you know, they're number two in defense. They have been all year. Their defensive rating's been in the top three

from start to finish. That's who they are. And the Nets are the exact opposite. So I would love to see those two play each other in the Eastern Conference Finals. I would enjoy that immensely. The star power alone would be fantastic. You know, Joel would be trolling everybody. They'd be trolling back. It just would be awesome.

I think Philly has a real identity. I think they have a chance to be a really good defensive team in the playoffs. And Ben is the thing that is the wild card. He's going to be left alone in big games. And the bigger the game, the more you're going to feel it. And how he handles that and reacts to it is going to decide their destiny. But the difference now is that you have Seth Curry, you have Danny Green, and you have Shaq Milton off the bench. You have guys that can come in and shoot shots for you. It's not like last year where you had Shaq Milton some of the time and nobody else to shoot perimeter shots for you.

I'm saying five minutes left, game six, they're down 3-2 in a series, and you're throwing your best five guys out there, and he's going to be out there, and the other team is going to be like, cool, we're not defending you. Well, unless, so then you got to be able to run off misses, I mean, because he's unstoppable in transition.

Now, I know transition... But you know it slows down in the playoffs. Everything slows down to a crawl. That's what, but Heinsohn used to always tell me, it doesn't have to be that way. You know, it slows down in the playoffs. Everything slows down to a crawl. That's what, but Heinsohn used to always tell me. It doesn't have to be that way. You could still, even if they score, take it out of the net and go. It just has to become a habit. Whether I think, you know, we'll see.

We'll see. Let me throw this at you. Okay. Embiid is the best player I've seen this season. He's been great. It's too bad he missed those games. Well, here's my question. So he's- 21 games?

How many? He's missed 18 games. That's a lot of games. But it's a shortened season. He might be able to get to, I think, 54 games, possibly. 54 of the 72. And there's no MVP emerges. Denver takes a step back.

Let's say Denver's a six or a seven seed. Normally, the MVP has to come from a top four seed. Westbrook was the only exception. And we all regretted that. Jokic winning the MVP and then losing in five in round one. Like, maybe we should be more forgiving of Embiid missing. If he plays 75% of the season, why can't I vote for him for MVP?

Well, you can, you absolutely can. But here's a couple of things. That's assuming he plays all the rest of the games. Yes. Okay. So he would basically have to run the slate the rest of the game.

And if I'm the Sixers, I'm not doing that. I'm not letting him do that. I'm going to rest him somewhere along the way because to your point, they're averaging 3.6 games. They're squeezing all these games in. The guy has little nicks and cuts all the time because he's a seven-foot whatever guy. It makes sense to me. Big guys always have to preserve their bodies. So if I'm the Sixers, I'm going to say, Joel, man, I want the MVP for you too, but I'm not going to play you. All right. So what if he plays 50? What if he plays 50 of 72,

but they're the one seed? I think it's a really good question. And I'd have to really think long and hard about it. Joel was at the top of my ballot right up until the last time he went out. But he was the best player of the first half of the season hands down. And that was done. But you got to look at Jokic's numbers. He's averaging almost a triple-double. And if his numbers

are only going to get higher, I think, with Murray. I actually think they're going to go down because of the two-man game thing. Two-man game.

That's possible. But he's just such a gamer. It's a very interesting question. And by the way, we haven't even talked about Giannis, who just quietly goes along and dominates games. But he's,

no one, you know, people get bored and they don't want to vote for the same guy again, which is ridiculous. And Kawhi, how many games has Kawhi missed?

Because Kawhi's been really sneaky, quietly good too, you know? Yeah, he's missed 10. I had, what I had written down now is Jokic, Dame. Dame always.

Embiid, Giannis. And then just for sentimental reasons, Chris Paul in the five spot. Right. So what about Harden? Because he's missed games now, you rule him out? Harden, I had ruled out already when he completely quit on the Rockets. And then there was this counter thing of like, oh, look at his stats. His stats for Houston were pretty good.

All right. Unfortunately, I have eyes and I have league pass. We all know what happened. Yeah. So that eliminates him for you. Fair enough. Eliminates him. Plus he got hurt, so it doesn't matter.

He's going to miss enough games that it's a good point anyway. Okay. I think there's a really weird... So to me, this turns out like the 99 season, where it's like Karl Malone ends up winning. Nobody could even figure out who to give it to. He wins and I don't know, maybe Shaq should win.

I don't even know if it matters. I feel like this is heading toward a we're just going to look at this MVP. It's like, eh, we didn't really have one that year. We picked this person because we needed to pick one. Jokic is an incredible offensive player. Defensively, he's what, a C-?

Yeah, a little better than that over the last few weeks. But yes. I mean, Embiid is a much better two-way player. There's no doubt about that. Much more impactful. The case for Jokic, other than the stats you mentioned, because he's 26- 11, and 9. He's a borderline 50-40-90 guy.

He's 57-42-85. He's one of the most fun players in the league. But the durability is incredible. He's played, I think, he's played 54. I think he's played every game. He has. So to me, that would be the case for him. It's like, this guy's been there every single game.

He's been awesome. Vote for him. Yeah. And he's carried that team. I mean, when Murray wasn't playing well, when Porter was in the, you know,

that out. And then when he came back struggling, Jokic was just phenomenal every step of the way. But here's my question. So let's say them in Portland end up with the exact same record. Can you tell me he did more for Denver than Dame did for Portland? Yes. Because Dame had a lot more to deal with because he lost McCollum for six weeks.

He loses Nurkic for a while. Kanter's playing way more minutes than they thought. They make a trade midseason. 30 rebounds. Oh my God. That's so awesome. My dad lost his mind. My dad loved Kanter. He's like, oh, you think we

could use Cantor? He's so upset. Cantor is one of the most interesting players because he's one of the best offensive rebounders I have ever seen in my life. He comes out and he's not fast and he comes out and you're like, how did that happen? But yet on the other end, not so much, you know, not so much, But he was a joy to be around. I've enjoyed him at every team he's been on. He's been fun. I actually think they missed him this year. I think he was a really important behind the scenes

kind of had a spirit to him and he was a great teammate and was a tough guy because the Celtics team is not tough. Yeah, I think the one thing about him though was that he was just so out there all the time. There were times I think the one thing about him, though, was that he was just so out there all the time. There were times, I think, his teammates were like, dude, take a day

off from that, alright? And just you know, there was a little bit of that. Anyway, that Dame Jokic thing, I think you can make a case. Yeah, of course you could. Dame, you could vote for Dame every year. You could vote for Steph Curry if you really, I mean. Steph Curry's been unbelievable.

That team's just bad. Yeah, they're bad. And he's done everything he can for them. So there's always... I mean, Bradley Beal. All right, now settle down. Come on, Bradley Beal. Well, I'm just trying to make a point.

Here's the level Dame reached. So the Celtics play them last night. Tatum misses a three for the Celtics to go up five with like a minute left. McComb comes down and hits one. And the Celtics score. They're up one. And I'm watching. I'm just like, we've left Dame too much time.

He's going to win the game. I just kind of assumed he was going to win. Always feel that way. Yeah. And the Celtics end up pulling the game out. I felt like I escaped, but the only reason was because I couldn't believe Dame didn't win the game. He's so incredible. Because he's kind of hit that way. Yeah. And the Celtics ended up pulling the game out. I felt like I escaped. But the only reason was because I couldn't believe Dame didn't win the game. He's so incredible. Because he's kind of hit that level. Remember that series that Portland beat Denver? Was that two seasons ago?

Yeah, two seasons ago. He just hijacked that series. And Denver was really good and really hot. They were playing really well. And he just, he's like, nope. It was so much fun to watch. So I think I would go Jokic,

Dame, Giannis right now. And then Jokic, Dame, Giannis, Embiid.

And then I would give Chris Paul the fifth spot because we vote for five, right? Yeah. Because I don't really have a fifth. So you have Embiid fourth. You have Embiid fourth. You have Embiid fourth.

And yet you just made this passionate case for him. I'm talking it out. This is a talk exercise. I'm bouncing stuff off you. Just trying to understand you, William. See, I think you could argue, I mean, Chris Paul would be

a very fine vote. I think you could argue you could vote for Steph Curry as well in that five spot. Very fair. Are you worried for our friend Steve Kerr? He's taking some heat. I know, but he can handle it.

And I mean, what's wrong with people? For crying out loud, are you paying attention at all to what this team has gone through in a very shortened season? It's just been one horrific thing after the next. Now James Wiseman, you know, you're trying, like, he got criticized for the handling of James Wiseman. I'm like, you know what? Just because he's a high pick.

Yeah. He's trying to teach the kid what's important, what isn't, what earns you minutes, what doesn't earn you minutes. That's what he's supposed to do. I can't believe, who was I talking to the other day that was saying to me, this is just a league now where if a coach criticizes a player or calls a player out, everybody's like, what's he doing? That's so horrible.

No, that's what he's supposed to do. Mike Malone sometimes gets pretty brutally honest with the Nuggets. I love that when that happens. Doc has always been like that. Some guys aren't like that at all. Ty Lue, if he gets a little spicy, if he gets a little upset, he might tell them what he really thinks. I kind of like it. I think it's good for these players. And so Wiseman, he's a young kid that's learning how to figure out the NBA. He probably went pro too soon. And Steve Kerr is just trying to get him the foundation he

needs to become a great player. That's all. He went from high school to the NBA basically, but also wasn't playing for the last year. Right. Yeah, that's a lot. I still feel like that was the right pick. I think I might be in the minority at this point because I think most people would say they should have taken Lamello. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, but look at their personnel, right? Look at their personnel. Because I forget, had Clay already torn his... Yeah, he had already torn his ACL. Had he?

I can't remember now. Before the draft. He had right before the draft. Well, there's a specific argument for it, which is centers don't win championships. The perimeter guys win championships. That's how it goes. So why would you take a center? LaMelo's fabulous.

He was fabulous. And that's another shame of it too, right? What a year he was having. And Gordon Haywood's out now. Like Charlotte had a chance to make some noise and then they lose. But they're sort of hanging around, aren't they? Where are they? Charlotte's a game over 500.

They've lost everybody. There's nobody left. They're playing like the Martin twins, but it's not sustainable. The other thing we should mention this with, I had another question. Give PJ Washington a little love. Come on.

A little bit. I like PJ Washington. Yeah, I do too. Um, this is a random one. This wasn't the second thing I had for you. The,

uh, the Bogdanovich thing enrages me. It's the same six dumb teams every year. The Bogdanovich thing enrages me. Why? It's the same six dumb teams every year. Sacramento is always one of them. They have this guy who they decide for whatever reason, eh, we won't keep him.

And there's some trade. I don't know how true that Milwaukee trade was, but at least they would have gotten an asset. Nope, they don't get him. Then Atlanta comes in. Here's four years, 85 million. The Kings look at it and they go, yeah, too rich for our blood.

You take them. I don't like losing assets. Like if I ever own an NBA team someday, which is very unlikely, guess what? I'm not losing assets for zero. I'm signing the guy and figuring it out four months from now. It's just so confusing.

He's been, Trae Young goes out. Is he better than Trae Young? You know, it's so funny. Remember when you kept talking, lamenting Cam Reddish being out? We didn't even talk about Bogdanovich. We missed the boat on it. I forgot. How about that play last night?

That play, Solomon Hill takes the ball out about, it looks like he was playing pickup in Rucker Park. He, like, casually side-armed it on the move. I'm sorry, it was with this arm. The length of the court to Cameron Herter, who looked like a receiver, and with six-tenths of a second, caught the ball. That was one of the greatest plays of the year. I couldn't, you know, which was better? I don't even know. The pass or the greatest plays of the year. I couldn't, you know, which was better? I don't even know.

The pass or the catch. It was incredible. That team is so fun. And give Nate McMillan his props. The minute he took over, everything turned around. And I thought Lloyd Pierce did a really good job with those guys. But Nate, you know, he's another guy that tells it like it is to his players, you know? Yeah.

Now that team is now 30-25. I thought the over-under for them, I think it was a half game for them to be a half game over 500 before the season. Really? I thought they were going under. And that team now... And Collins is out, too.

They're both out. I know. Collins and Young are both out. But it's like that old 82 Celtics, the 83 Celtics thing, where it's like sometimes you can have too many guys. So they got rid of a couple of the guys and everybody's like, great. Yeah.

That wasn't the 83 Celtics problem. They had a lot of problems. Did you cover that team? No, I would, I was still, I just graduated from college. No,

I did not. But I've talked to, I mean, I love Bill Fitch. I talked to Bill Fitch a lot. ML Carr flat out told me we wanted him to get fired. So we quit. I mean talked to, I mean, I love Bill Fitch. I talked to Bill Fitch a lot. ML Carr flat out told me we wanted him to get fired, so we quit. I mean, that's on the record. You can go look it up somewhere.

He told me that in the 80s at some point, much later, well after the fact. We wanted to get rid of Bill Fitch, so we quit on him. That's a direct quote. It's a major, major mark on the legend's resume to sweep to Milwaukee. It's a tough one, but he had nothing to do with it. He loved Bill Fitch. He was fighting like hell for Bill. Larry loved, if you ask Larry his favorite coach of all time, he'll tell you it's Bill Fitch. He was disgusted with those guys. He was really upset. It's at least 40% of the Maxwell bird beef, I think is the 83. Might be. And then the other is 60% is the Max not rehabbing his knee well enough

for the 84-85 season. Right. Which I think you were around for. He was basically a no-show in that playoffs. Yeah, and the thing about Larry is he's just so tough and he just expected everybody else to be as tough as he was. He expected everybody else to be a gamer. And that's a high thing to leave up to.

That's why I like McHale, even though they had their differences, McHale played through everything always. Right. And that's where the respect comes in between those two, you know? Here's my other biggies question for you. This Brooklyn thing with the rotating door of who's available night to night. And then Kyrie disappeared again last week. I know. Why should I trust that this team,

as presently constituted, from what we've seen now for four plus months, five months, however long it's been, that when we get to the playoffs and the pressure increases and the spotlight gets hotter, that this team is going to stay together for 10 weeks without any sort of drama, somebody disappearing at the wrong time, whatever.

Why should I trust that? Because they're just historically talented. They're the most historically talented offensive team probably ever the NBA's ever seen. I'm talking to the data. Yeah. And so when the light gets hot, Kyrie doesn't shrink from the light. When the light gets hot, Durant doesn't shrink from the light.

Now you can argue a little bit about Harden if you want, based on his somewhat checkered legacy when the game was on the line. A little bit's the nicest thing anyone's ever said about him. Yeah, right. But here's the thing. What's his role on this team? If it stays what it has been, he's, to me,

been the most important guy on their team since that trade happened. And he's been unbelievable until he got hurt. And he's the glue. And he's the guy that was saying, I don't care about

taking the last shot. I don't care about now. Would that change in the playoffs? By all accounts, it wasn't supposed to change in time for the playoffs. So if the lights get white hot, do you think Durant is going to crumble under the white hot lights? I don't. The dude's a winner

everywhere he goes. Kyrie, I don't see him. I don't think those guys wilt. Now, your point about chemistry and when the game gets tight and let's say Joe Harris misses a shot and, you know, will Kyrie turn and do what he did in Boston and start, you know, jumping on the guy? That might happen. But I think Joe Harris

can take it. And I think Joe Harris is going to make more shots, big shots that he's going to miss. The most interesting thing to me about this Nets team is that if they even didn't have Kyrie

for a couple rounds, I actually think they'd be okay. I, if it was just Durant, Harden, all the other dudes they have, I still think they would probably, I'd probably pick them to win these.

So Kyrie becomes this weird luxury where it's like, you don't know where you're getting from him from week to week, game to game. But if you get anything out of him, now they're unstoppable, which is kind of like what he wants, right? That's the spot he wants to be in.

When he plays, though, my God. You just, you watch him when he's engaged and he's playing. He's just so good. He's just so good. You forget how good he can be. He could dominate games for stretches that you just go. Nobody could stop him. He's really talented.

And just think about if Spencer Dinwiddie was here, you know? Although I wonder if they, if he was healthy, they would have traded him probably at the deadline, right? 100%. Yeah. I was looking at the stats. I was just looking at some MVP stuff and I was looking at different stats bouncing around

and I looked at PR. And if you look at the top 10 in PR right now, it is all superstars. I'll give you the top 10 except for the fifth place guy. Jokic, Giannis, Zion, Kawhi, Jimmy Butler, Steph Curry, Luka Doncic, Dame Lillard, Kyrie Irving. That's our top 10 in PR. LeBron's not in there? LeBron's 13th. Wow. I'm surprised LeBron is in the top 10. He always is.

Can you guess? Who number five is? Can you guess the non-superstar in that top 10? I'll give you a hint. He's playing less than 20 minutes a game and he plays for my favorite team. Jared Allen. Oh, no.

Nevermind. I was going to say Jared Allen. Your favorite team. Who's your favorite team? The Celtics. Yeah. Is it, they're your favorite team? PER. Oh, Robert Williams. Time Lord is number five. Robert Williams. Right behind Kauai Leonard at 26.36 PER. Yeah. 19 minutes a game. I was excited. I was really sick to see him in there. Yeah, let's not get carried away. Well, I think that's why we've all had slight issues with PR because it looks

great, but there's always the Robert Williams type guy in the top 12. Oh, that's weird. And it's often a big guy. I mean, from what I've been told by all the analytics guys, they have stuff we can't possibly match. Our laymen like myself and others. But they do say that the ESPN real plus minus

is probably one that they put more weight on than they do PER for what it's worth. So for what it's worth. And I don't have that in front of me, but it's the same. It's, you know, it's the usual cast of characters. I think LeBron fares well in that statistic as well. So big guys do well there because field goal percentage

matters and that kind of stuff. The funny thing about LeBron before he got hurt it was statistically, I don't think I think it was his worst season just from the raw stats since like 2006. I think the impact of it was probably a little better. I think that's all I had for you. Oh, I want to talk women's college really fast.

Okay. Um, the, uh, the Stanford wins. Yeah. The coach had it won. The coach had it won for 29 years. Yeah. Isn't that beautiful that she had a chance not to win for 29 years. So what happened? Cause I, I I'm, I'm just recently kind of becoming enamored with the, with the, this whole, how do you not win? How do you go 29 years between championships? I thought that was bizarre. Plus she's at a good school. It's not like she's at like Eastern Carolina. No, she's a lifer and they're always in the top five every year. It just never happened?

Yeah, it just didn't happen after that. And she got close a couple of times. Did she have like close calls? Or was there like almost like, oh. Here's one thing I have to just brag about because my old high school coach, Kathy Delaney Smith is the coach at Harvard, as you know, because I've mentioned her before, but she was for many years, the answer to a great trivia question, which was the only time a number 16 seed beat a number one seed in the NCAA tournament, because this is before Belmont did what they did. Yeah. She beat Tara Vanderveer in Stanford. Now they had some injuries, but she had Allison Feaster,

who is now the director of basketball ops for the Celtics. So they were the answer to a trivia question for many, many years. I loved, who was the tall blonde who had the McHale game? Bechtel. Bechtel. Yeah, she's terrific.

But Kiara Wells, their senior was really great. I mean, she's the one that missed 11 straight shots. She missed 11 straight shots in that game. And you're like, oh my God, this is like Dame Lillard missing 11. But that's why she was Dame Lillard because she hit all the big shots down the stretch. I jumped

on the Arizona bandwagon. So I was reading against Stanford in that. Well, yeah, because Adia Barnes is a cool story. She's a really cool story. I like the coach and the point guard reminded me of

pre-injury Isaiah Thomas. Oh, there you go. The women's version and was doing... I like that. So I was like, I'm all in. I'm in on Arizona.

And I did think they were going to come back. And I did love that Adia Barnes and Don Staley used their platforms to talk about what we talk about in the men's game

all the time, the dearth of female black coaches because just like the men's game, there's a million of them out there that are great assistants that haven't gotten the chance. And I'm going to throw one name at you, someone that I've gotten to know very well. Her name's Marissa Mosley. She turned the BU program around. She's not only such an amazing coach, but one of the most dynamic people I've ever been around. I was on the board of Shooting Touch, my organization I've told you about before, where we use basketball as a tool to help kids, both in inner city Boston,

minority kids in inner city Boston, also in Rwanda. And she joined our board as the coach BU. And she just blew me away with her enthusiasm or energy, the way she interacted with these young kids. I just like thought, wow, she is a star. And I was right. Wisconsin just hired her away. She's the new coach at Wisconsin who I think had four wins or something last year. Like that program is really downtrodden. And you mark my words within five years, Wisconsin is going to be the NCAA tournament because that's how good Marissa Mosley is. I really love her. My wife was not totally watching, sitting next to me doing emails, but her head was popping up in the final.

And when it got to the part about Adia Barnes, she was pumping milk at halftime. Yeah, it was incredible. And then her husband was an assistant coach. And my wife was like, what's going on here? Her husband's the assistant coach.

She's pumping milk at halftime. Like, this not a bigger story? She was all in. Welcome to the 21st century, people. It's awesome. How many married people are on the same coaching staff? It's a little more common than you would think. Really? Yes. In fact, at UNH, Maureen McGarrity, who did a really great job at UNH for a number of years is now at Holy Cross. Her husband was on her staff for a time. Jen Rosati, the former UConn star was at Hartford and her husband was on her staff too. Yeah.

I was trying to think what the NBA version of that would be fantastic. If somebody just said their wife is an assistant. I feel like that would be a storyline every game. The sideline reporter would have to like go. How about like Kevin and Lynn McHale? Did you ever know Lynn McHale? Oh man, don't cross her. Don't cross her. I'm just telling you right now.

She is a mama bear. She'd be entertaining. That would be fun to watch her. I'm trying to think who else. Well, that was a good, that was a good, I thought that was a good tournament. The final four, all three of those games were really good. Like really, really riveting.

Yeah, they were. And there were other teams involved. That's what was so fun. There were actual upsets, which in the past, it was all chalk for years and years and years. And we're well past that now. That's not how it goes. What about our girl, my dad, as you know, giant, you kind of fan now he's very upset with Paige Beckers thought, uh, thought she didn't show up. So I thought she thought she was a little

overwhelmed. I was like, dad, she's like 19. Yeah. And you know what? Go back and look at what Diana Taurasi did in her freshman year. I'm pretty sure she missed every shot she took. Don't hold me to this, but she was a freshman on a great team with Shea Ralph and some of those great players. And she missed a lot of shots and they didn't win. And then she won three more. So let's see what Paige does next. I don't pick on 18-year-old kids. Just can't do it. Listen, my dad is who he is. He's lived in Boston for the last 50 years. I've never met your dad.

I would take your dad to lunch at the Forest, but it's closed. So tell your dad I'll take him to lunch. Is he vaccinated? He's vaccinated. Okay. I'm vaccinated. I'm flying back to Boston for round one games.

Oh, okay. I don't know if that'll be a great idea because this might not be a good Celtics team. Yeah, it might be over. They might be in that play-in game, so you better get here in a hurry. But I'm getting my second vaccination on Friday, so I tell your dad we should go to lunch and we can talk

UConn basketball all day long. He's got a lot of UConn thoughts. Okay, that's good. I will look forward to that. Jackie, what's your next story? When's it coming out? I don't know. I'm trying to do a son story, which I'm hoping will come out soon if I can get to these guys.

The world is different, Bill. I can't just show up at the arena like I normally do. So, you know, here's hoping. Here's hoping. Good to see you, Jackie. Thank you, Bill. This was fun. All right, that's it for part one of the two-part Bill Simmons podcast.

Check out me and Warren Sharp in part two, talking NFL draft, talking future bets, talking draft prop bets, and a whole bunch more, including Minshew Mania in New England, possibly. Who knows? But yeah, go out. Part two, me, Warren Sharp. That's next.