The Bill Simmons Podcast - Part 1: Unexpected Bucks-Nets Drama, Plus Top 40 Players Right Now With Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: June 14, 2021

In Part 1 of the two-part Sunday podcast, The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss the Nets’ Game 4 loss to the Bucks after Kyrie Irving was injured. Among their questions: ...Did the series just flip in the Bucks’ favor? Is Kevin Durant officiated differently than other superstars? Is Giannis Antetokounmpo’s play style inefficient for his skill set? (3:00) Then Bill and Ryen run through their much-alluded-to list of the top 40 NBA players (40:30). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Transcript
Discussion (0)
Starting point is 00:00:00 What if the Len Bias story, hosted by Jordan Ritter-Khan, is The Ringer's latest narrative podcast? You can find new episodes every Wednesday on the Book of Basketball 2.0 feed. Here's a quick trailer. You've heard his name, Len Bias. 1980s phenom, second pick in the NBA draft. And then, cocaine, tragedy, one of the most shocking deaths in sports history. 35 years later, Bias' legacy is still making an impact. From Spotify and the Ringer Podcast Network, this is What If, the Lynn Bias story.
Starting point is 00:00:37 I'm Jordan Ritter Kahn. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this. It's game day.
Starting point is 00:01:00 All the gang's here. You're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're standing at the grill and the smell of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that. Or when you want a light beer that tastes like beer, that's delicious. You don't want to load up on those heavier beers and then you only have two of them. Then you feel tired. Your stomach feels full. Miller Lite, it's your friend. It just accompanies whatever else you're doing. You're super happy with it. Opening an ice cold Miller
Starting point is 00:01:29 Lite can signal the beginning of Miller time. Miller Lite is the light beer with all the great beer tastes we like. 90 calories per 355 mil can. So why not grab some Miller Lites today? Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet it all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking,
Starting point is 00:02:04 I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the Chargers go into the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the Chargers are going to be good. I think Seattle's going to be good. And then trying to back what you think in those first few weeks and then zag the other way, if you were wrong, you could bet on new and fun markets on FanDuel, like to catch your pass, same game parlays, highest scoring game across the Sunday slate, offensive TDs, the next drive. They have so much stuff. It's crazy. The app is safe and secure and easy to use. And when you win, you'll get paid instantly. Plus,
Starting point is 00:02:30 look out for FanDuel Squares this season. Here's what you have to do. Visit FanDuel.com slash BS to download America's number one sportsbook. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit RG-Help.com to learn more about the resources
Starting point is 00:02:45 and helplines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. You must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem called 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. We're also brought to you by TheRinger.com as well as The Ringer Podcast Network. We have a new Rewatchables coming on Monday night. I'll just tell you what it is. City Slickers. 30th anniversary. It's quite a movie. I'll tell you.
Starting point is 00:03:13 Some of it's aged great. Other of it is aged in the corniest way possible. We had fun breaking that one down. That's tomorrow night. That movie is on one of the streaming platforms for free. I can't remember which one. You want to check out the Ringer NBA show? We are reacting live right after a lot of these games on Sunday night, Monday night, Tuesday night, Wednesday night,
Starting point is 00:03:33 all those nights. So you can hear the whole crew over there. We even did a Friday nighter the last couple of weeks. So we'll see. Some of these series are going to end early as we are about to talk about with Rosilla, but we're going to talk about the Nets. Are they in trouble?
Starting point is 00:03:47 Part one of the special two-part extravaganza. Part two will be coming in a few hours. This is part one. First, Pearl Jam. All right, it is 3 o'clock Pacific time, 6 o'clock Eastern time, taping this right after Nets Bucks. Game 4, Ryan Rosillo is here. Man, how much can change over the course of the weekend? I watched game three and I thought,
Starting point is 00:04:30 Nets gave it away. They're fine. That's about as dumb of a game as they're going to lose. They easily could have won nine different times. They played terribly. They still almost won. And I'm not sure what Milwaukee has for answers. Going to game four, the Nets are up 34-25,
Starting point is 00:04:49 have all the momentum. Shamit face commits a foul on Middleton, four-point play, and it opens the floodgates. Bucks go on a 19-2 run. Kyrie sprains his ankle during the run, and the entire series shifts. And now Kyrie is out. We have no idea when Harden's coming back.
Starting point is 00:05:08 And you saw what the Nets looked like as a one-man team. Rosillo, it's overreaction Sunday. Did the Bucs flip this series? Yeah, I mean, they did because now we don't know about the Kyrie part. But I'll tell you, this doesn't happen very often
Starting point is 00:05:22 because I've felt like Milwaukee, you look at them, you're like, all right, I like them. Look at all the size, look at all the stuff. Those first two games are so bad. In game three, even though they won it, Bill, I felt worse about them. I go, this has, there's a version of this breakdown,
Starting point is 00:05:37 which I still will probably do and perhaps regret because the Bucs could end up winning this series if it's just Durant. But there are fundamental problems that this team has with Giannis being the initiator on so many things. And Middleton was bad for two games. Drew Holiday couldn't do anything for like three games. He was a little better. They shot it better. And it felt like once Kyrie went down, it was 44-40, 542 left in the second quarter. It felt like the Nets just emotionally were like in shock. They were very flat for a long period
Starting point is 00:06:03 of time. And then I think Milwaukee actually kind of matched their lack of emotion, but it was just they had more options. And I thought Tucker was terrific on Durant. They're very physical with him. And Milwaukee made threes, which they did not do in the first three games. It was a weird energy game from Durant.
Starting point is 00:06:17 And I think this is a good topic to hit for this specific game. And we can go into what this means. I'm sure there's going to be stuff that comes out as you're doing this pod about how her Kyrie is, things like that. But Durant for, I think somebody who's one of the best 15 players ever, who I think is the best player in the league right now, the best two-way guy. If I'm starting a team just for four rounds and I can have anyone in the league and I'm trying to win the title. He's my first pick. And yet the way Tucker was defending him and the physicality and the tricks he was doing and how he was just in it, like Rich Kleinman sarcastically tweeted,
Starting point is 00:06:56 PJ Tucker has 13 fouls here in the third quarter, but he really was like roughing him up. And I'm not making excuses for KD because I thought it took him out of it. I just think it's fascinating that he doesn't get officiated sometimes like he's one of the best players of all time. Because I promise you, if somebody tried to defend LeBron like that, they would be calling the fouls. And this has been a theme with KD's career. You can get physical with him. The Warriors did it in 2016. And we've seen KD get frustrated. He starts looking at the refs. This is kind of the blueprint for how to defend him.
Starting point is 00:07:30 Unfortunately for the league, there's not that many guys who could do this, but Tucker knows it. He was playing all the tricks. He was doing the Raja bell, Bruce Bowen. He was doing the playbook, greeting him two thirds of the way up the court in his way, jostling him, pushing him, always like in his vicinity, bugging him. And it worked. But my question for you is, does Kevin Durant get treated like a superstar? Because it did not seem like it in this game. There are other guys that get calls because their primary approach to basketball is trying
Starting point is 00:07:59 to get calls. And those are usually guys I don't love watching. And I would say even Steph started doing a little bit more this year than he's ever done it before. He's like, all right, let's go ahead and do it. But I think when you're 7'1", it just gets old. Like you don't want to keep doing it. And, you know, the biggest thing with Durant when it's right is,
Starting point is 00:08:15 you know, he gets that screen and he kind of comes into mid-range and it's just you're scrambling a bit. You don't really know. I thought they got good looks in game three. Others disagree. I thought they just didn't shoot it very well. And I thought whenever it was kind of that handoff to him trying to settle into that mid-range pull-up jumper deal, Tucker was just on him the whole time, like riding him. So yeah, I think he got fouled. I don't think the Nets would have won
Starting point is 00:08:38 had they called more of these fouls. But you have to be committed to exaggerating contact if you're going to be one of those guys. Because even if you get it, like the thing that drives me crazy is like it'll be obvious that it was a bad call. And you'd think like, all right, the ref's not going to give you the benefit of the doubt the next couple of times you do it. They just keep they just keep making the call for you. So I think for Durant, he was falling like later in the action. You know what I mean? Like how many times do we see him sitting his ass on baseline, like looking up as everybody is in transition going the other way. It's like, he needs to sell that earlier, but I just don't, I think it can get a little
Starting point is 00:09:12 exhausting doing that over and over again, trying to sell calls, but look, it's not what they lost. I thought once Irving went down, Bucks hit shots, Tucker, who had nine points in the first three games total, couldn't hit a three. He hits th hits threes drew who's been invisible for three games you know he gets it going and then yannis who i know we're going to talk about here we should kind of like as the core of this i mean you know these are not the reasons why milwaukee won milwaukee won uh for all the things i just said not because of the durant stuff well milwaukee won because of that 19-2 run when they were really physical with Durant and it worked. They were going to the line. Giannis was aggressively going to the basket and doing his stuff.
Starting point is 00:09:52 And I thought Middleton, even though his stats won't really show it, he had a knack for making shots when you could feel the momentum starting to drift the other way. Actually, I thought he played a good two-way game. The Durant thing, though, you're right. He doesn't, he's kind of one of the most authentic
Starting point is 00:10:11 players we have. Like, he is a ball-don't-lie kind of, like, he does his thing. If he gets the calls, he gets them. If he doesn't get them, he doesn't get them.
Starting point is 00:10:20 But he's not going to do the I shoot my jumper and I flail my arms out. Or I'm going to pretend, I'm going to kick my legs I shoot my jumper and I flail my arms out, or I'm going to pretend I'm going to kick my legs out on this three and hope I drew contact stuff like that. Both him and Kyrie don't really operate that way. There's like a purity to how they play the game. So when they feel like the refs aren't kind of respected in that purity, like today, I do think Durant loses it a little bit. Like, I think he lost his composure
Starting point is 00:10:45 tail end of the second and definitely in the third quarter for the first six minutes during a point when the Nets didn't really have anybody else but him. Right. And that had to be like one man show Durant. You could feel this happen in 2016 to those last three Warriors games, which we broke down on a book of basketball pod, where when it really started to get skittish and the Warriors kept pushing the energy up and up and up, like Durant sometimes can get discombobulated by it. And I felt like it happened today. I actually think if he had played a great game,
Starting point is 00:11:15 I think they could have beaten the Bucs even with just him. But he just, I mean, they had at one point, like halfway through the third quarter, they had 52 points. They had 34 with like eight minutes left in the second. Like they scored 18 points for like a period and a half. They missed after Kyrie went out, they missed 10 straight threes. And I just thought they fell apart. And I thought they fell apart emotionally too.
Starting point is 00:11:37 You're right. Their energy died. Yeah. From Kyrie being out at 44-40, that turned into 87-73. They were 12-32 overall, 0-10-3 with eight turnovers. So even with the physical stuff on PJ, a bunch of those other guys are terrible. Like James had some moments. That alley-oop he went to throw to Blake were literally James.
Starting point is 00:11:56 I don't even think he knew what he was doing. No one else knew what the plan was. He didn't. Joe Harris missed everything early. And all of a sudden, when you can just load up on Durant, you're never helping off of some of those other guys, the reason why Nick Claxton and Brown and the rest of these dudes have looked good is because there are always two horrifying offensive players out there.
Starting point is 00:12:14 So now all of a sudden there's one. And I also think there's just a human nature element, too. We saw it in Game 3 with the Clippers and Jazz. When the team is desperate and they're going to play you a little bit more physical, that's certainly what happened with some of those hard doubles on Mitchell, the way they came up to defend Ingles at the very start of the game. You're like, oh, okay. And I think it can take you sometimes.
Starting point is 00:12:32 I know this sounds ridiculous, but there are moments in games where you can just tell if Durant goes back and watches the tape, he'll be pissed at himself because he's going to go, you know what? I didn't match their intensity. I wasn't ready for it. And it happens. It happens all the time. Even with the best players you can see over the course of a game where you don't adjust to match the other team. And then you regret it for like the next 48 hours and you come out with a
Starting point is 00:12:54 plan and ready for it. I thought Blake matched it. I think KD was there at least for a little while and Kyrie was there. I don't know what happened to Joe Harris in this series, but he was the biggest reason they lost game three, I thought topics for pods or TV shows, like is Joe Harris, the fourth all-star on this team? And it's like, no, he's actually not. He's in a really good spot with playing with three all-stars. And I think when they really needed him to go toe-to-toe with Middleton, he had a lot of trouble. You mentioned Mike James. Mike James, who I was going to have as a topic before he put up that stink bomb.
Starting point is 00:13:48 Like, could we add him to the list of guys who could conceivably add a score 20 points a game on a 15 and 67 team? Do you think Mike James could score 20 points a game on a bad team? Yeah, he's actually, you know, he's the real deal offensively. He is, but you can see he wasn't today though is my point no and he was really awful today and they needed him i've also seen moments with him in the nets where i mean he's all about his deal which i think he's had to be to survive but yeah i know there was one game i still think it was towards the end of the regular season where it was a decent game and and nash like yanked him in a spot where you wouldn't normally yank him. And he was like, all right, you know, I'm getting you out of here.
Starting point is 00:14:27 Now I could be, I was just watching it. So I don't know exactly what happened after the fact. And Shamit was another one who did not show up in either of these games. And it doesn't seem like they have a lot of confidence in Shamit, which is tough because, you know, that was that three-way trade where I think the Nets were the one that gave up their first, right? And that was a pick that, you know, was in the Sadiq Bae kind of range.
Starting point is 00:14:47 But it just doesn't seem like they trust him. And I thought it was weird because in the two home games, they were playing their bench. Like they were playing guys like Tyler Johnson. They were getting a lot of energy. And then Nash only went eight guys in the third game. And I don't think Tyler Johnson played. And he just like tightened the rotation, did that whole thing. And then in the third game and did like, I don't think Tyler Johnson played and he just
Starting point is 00:15:05 like tightened the rotation, did that whole thing. Um, and then in the game today, I actually thought that would have been a really important Tyler Johnson five minute stretch post Kyrie. Cause at least he can, you know, he'll, he'll pick up the other point guard full court. Like he'll have some energy, he'll have some intensity, but they just didn't play him at all. And they, they kind of tried to have Mike James as the Kyrie replacement, which I thought was weird. But I have to admit, coming into the second half, I thought it was set for the magical KD ESPN Classic game. I really thought he was going to have like 28 points in the second half and bring them back and do it. But it just wasn't his day.
Starting point is 00:15:44 And I think these last two games, they've thrown him off. Like he hasn't shot well and he's looked frustrated and he's had some very un-KD like plays, which we're going to do top 40 or top 40s later. And I don't think it's going to affect my top 40, but I don't know. It's like,
Starting point is 00:16:01 think about could, could Luca have survived for three quarters? When you just think about could could luca have survived for three quarters when you just think about one man shows i thought the rants one man show game was going to show up in that second half it did that i thought everybody else was dead i thought there were some horrible possessions where they're just looking at each other and then there was another run there before they went to the benches where jeff green just threw it away to somebody else um there were times where they got stuck and there was zero spacing and then they would be looking back at KD. So I thought they were all a mess.
Starting point is 00:16:27 I thought emotionally they were completely destroyed. And I just think it was a bad half plus a basketball after losing another really special player in Kyrie. So I don't know where you had, I mean, look, we can watch games differently and all that kind of stuff. I'm surprised that you had this anticipation for this unbelievable Katie
Starting point is 00:16:45 moment, which would have been a major one 80 from where they seem to be intensity wise. He did have, he ended up with 16 in the third quarter, which it didn't feel like it was, it was happening. I was wondering,
Starting point is 00:16:57 so this ties into another question I had, and this was even before game four, I was going to ask you this. I just don't think Harden's close to coming back. And this is a tea leaves thing. This is like through the grapevine kind of stuff. I don't think he's close. And I wonder like,
Starting point is 00:17:15 do the Nets know he's not close to coming back? Or if he comes back, he'd be 70%, not a hundred percent. But when Kyrie goes down, he's obviously really hurt. And the Nets kind of, as a team, they look at that and they're like, holy shit.
Starting point is 00:17:29 If they know Harden isn't necessarily going to be back in the next couple games, and then you have Kyrie with this legit ankle sprain, that was a bad one. And you just go, holy shit. This could now be a best of three, and we're down to one star. And they, like you used the, I don't know, you didn't say shell shock before, but there
Starting point is 00:17:50 was like a small shell shocking that you could feel for that half hour. Right? Yeah. I think it was pretty clear. You could see it and they played like crap. Yeah. And then it was just KD fix everything. And, you know, this is, I think, what's really delicate about this series.
Starting point is 00:18:11 Okay? If there's no Kyrie and, you know, there's no Harden, as you're alluding to, and the Bucs win this, the result, I think, will trick us into thinking the Bucs are something that they're not. And during Game 3, even when the Bucs won it, and I don't know if you want to go here yet,
Starting point is 00:18:31 but I'm watching Giannis and I'm going, why do you expect this to be different in any of these playoff series against good teams? You know, this is only like the third year of evidence that you can find a way to slow him down. And now he's not making any free throws. Zach Lowe did a really good piece kind of looking at some of the second spectrum possessions where some of the ISO stuff that he's running is like 19 ISOs a game. He's missing basically all of his
Starting point is 00:18:56 threes. And I'm thinking about him as a top 10 player, which he certainly is. But then I compare to the rest of the top 10 guys. I'm like, is he the only one that kind of can't keep you honest? Is he the only one that becomes so one-dimensional offensively that it's easy to shut down? And Blake, you know, it's kind of like when a pitcher misses a spot and then we show the replay and that's a home run. It's like, oh, look where the catcher was set up and then boom. It's like, you know what?
Starting point is 00:19:17 Sometimes guys are going to miss spots and get crushed and other times they're going to miss spots and it's still a strike. And with Blake, sometimes he's going to get eaten up by Giannis, but I think he held his own on a lot of those drives when Blake was in there. And it led to a bigger deal of me looking at Giannis going, you know, I defend him. I like his approach. I like that he's intense.
Starting point is 00:19:39 I like that it seems like he cares, Bill. But I'm also open to the idea that he may be this incredibly flawed superstar. And that's the way it felt going through game three. And now they might get through the series. And I don't know if it actually really changes any of these thoughts that I've had. I'm open to discuss being wrong about it. I think I've been very pro Giannis
Starting point is 00:19:58 for this run of three years and being like, we'll see what happens. But I also think there's just some reality of watching it play out over and over and over again, where you go, maybe he's just not that guy. Maybe he's the regular season guy assess. Yeah. It reminds me of, uh, you know, when some of the comedy actors try to do a drama, you know, and it's like, you know, I was not expecting this. I mean, I can't wait. It's like Will Ferrell, as you've never seen him before, as a divorced dad who's bad in alcoholism.
Starting point is 00:20:28 By the way, that movie, he didn't make that movie. I'm just saying, you're kind of like, I just want Will Ferrell to be the Little League coach who's, you know, screaming at everybody and just being goofy. Like that's the Will Ferrell I like. With Giannis, I just like the Giannis who's in transition coming off defensive rebounds and he's this unstoppable force of nature. Or he's Giannis who's in transition, coming off defensive rebounds,
Starting point is 00:20:45 and he's this unstoppable force of nature, or he's the guy who's around the rim, finishing plays alley-oop. When he's Giannis from 25 feet, now he's Will Ferrell in the dramedy as the alcoholic father going through the divorce. And it's just like, this is not how we should be using him. He's not LeBron. He's not Luca. Like I, we've said a million times, see, I think he's a center and I think he's miscast with a lot of this stuff. And maybe there shouldn't be centers anymore. You should argue like if you have a seven foot athlete like that, but we've seen guys like Embiid and Jokic and low post guys use these drop steps and these little jump hooks and different moves and pull second defenders, which opens the court for everybody else. And I just watching this for
Starting point is 00:21:31 multiple years, I just don't understand how they use them. Zach, one of the revelations in Zach's piece today, which was excellent. It was on ESPN.com. If you want to go read it was when they use him as a screener. When he's the role man. Yeah. When he's the role man, it's terrible. That's are even worse. He's like, what was it like 0.84 per possession?
Starting point is 00:21:50 It was awful. Yeah. I would have thought just knowing nothing, like being like, Oh man, I don't understand why they don't run drew and Giannis pick and roll. That should be unstoppable. And there's overwhelming statistical evidence that it's really stoppable
Starting point is 00:22:03 because everybody just backs down and they give Giannis this 15 to 24 foot cushion, which leads me to my point. Like if, if Shaq was being used like this and Shaq was just always 25 feet for the basket, we would have Shaq would have been guarded this way, right? We just, cause Giannis is such an unbelievable athlete. You don't think of them as a traditional center, but I just think he is now he had a great game today. It was 34 points, but that was a game. It was discombobulated. There was a lot of chaos, a lot of, you know, long rebounds or turnovers. And he was in transition a lot, which is when he looks great. But that's, as we know in the playoffs, you don't get that for four straight rounds. You just don't. Yeah. I, you know, I, I don't know. I don't
Starting point is 00:22:43 know how people will react to that but i just i'm sitting here and i'm counting this as like the third playoff year where i felt like all right you know they made an adjustment toronto smart you know they're up 2-0 they lost four straight like that's not the worst thing to ever happen and then last year you're like that's a disaster but is it fluky because of the bubble and then you know the shooting numbers were atrocious in the first round against Miami, but we realized Miami is incredibly limited. And then when you look at some of the possessional stuff, you're like, okay, that's bad. And I know he was going to be great today. Like, look, Giannis could still get 40 in one of these games here. It's, it's certainly a possibility, but I have to be honest in that, like a lot of
Starting point is 00:23:22 my note taking and the stuff I was looking up after game three, I go, all right, so he keeps taking threes and he misses. He keeps missing all of his free throws. Van Gundy was grunting on those threes. Two games in a row. He did it again on one today where he was like, I just don't get it. I just don't get it.
Starting point is 00:23:41 And I don't think I'm being unfair knowing that he's fully capable of having some huge game, but I don't know if he can carry you consistently enough because when he does get slowed down by the wall, he can be really slow in his decision. There was a couple possessions today where I thought the broadcast was giving him too much credit. They're like, oh, that was great.
Starting point is 00:24:00 It's like, no, he kind of just got stuck and then threw it to the guy behind him, and then the guy made the shot. A couple of times where it was with Drew where I think it was a quicker decision on the pass. But I think he can be really slow on his decisions. And so, yeah, that's kind of where I was at. Because, I mean, if you look at all the other top 10 players,
Starting point is 00:24:17 and he's certainly one of those, like I would say Embiid's the only other one that you wouldn't call a shooter. But, you know, whether it's LeBron, Harden, certainly Curry, Doncic, Kawhi, Joker, Dame, you know, and I'm just kind of doing this off the top of my head. He's in that group, but he's probably the only one that you're begging to shoot. Yeah. And I trust Embiid a lot more from from from deep than I think I trust Giannis hold on we got to talk about State Farm really quick
Starting point is 00:24:48 I don't know about you guys but the NBA playoffs have been exciting to see even though this round's been a little spotty there's no such thing as certainty on the court until the ref blows the final whistle but basketball wouldn't be the game we know without a few surprises right
Starting point is 00:25:02 for instance this Nets-Bucks game today. So if Kyrie doesn't get hurt, just quickly, do you think the Nets win this game? Kyrie doesn't sprain his ankle? Yeah. Because I am convinced they win the game. And I think that goes back to our reticence with the Bucks
Starting point is 00:25:18 where this is two pretty big major breaks there. Harden gets hurt 42 seconds into the series. Yeah, kind of. Kind of a big deal. I'm going to say that's a break. And then Kyrie, right as it felt like, because Kyrie was not good in game three, but right as it felt like Kyrie was going to start going full Kyrie,
Starting point is 00:25:36 and then he steps on Giannis' foot. And unfortunately, that's what happens in the playoffs. You have surprises. You have the Lakers as minus 800 favorites after game three, and then they lose the next three because Anthony Davis all of a sudden falls the wrong way. You just never know. You never know at the playoffs. The playoffs are really showing. Surprises are all part of the game. The same can be said when it comes to shopping for insurance. With State Farm, you get the personalized service of a local agent for a surprising rate,
Starting point is 00:26:00 like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. Did you think that will be called the flagrant retroactively Giannis going right under Kyrie's landing spot? I don't know what to make
Starting point is 00:26:51 of this. Sometimes it happens on threes and I'm like, I don't know where that guy was supposed to land on him trying to block a three. Then there's other times like the Giannis thing was like Kyrie is up in the air and Giannis just ran right underneath him. That's kind of the definition of what that rule is. They didn't call it. They didn't review it. But did you think that was an illegal play? Because I think it was.
Starting point is 00:27:10 Well, I don't think it was dirty. I don't think Giannis did it on purpose because I thought Giannis was looking up and he's just big and his foot got underneath him. But by the standard of how that's called, I think the problem is that the ball's away
Starting point is 00:27:23 and the focus is probably up high where when it's called in the perimeter, it's everybody's kind of watching that matchup, you know, defender against perimeter shooter 25 feet away from the hoop. So I think it's an easier one to call. It certainly called more consistently. I don't remember it being called a ton closer to the basket. So I think that's, you know, just part of the Kyrie being unlucky on that one. But yeah, if it went back. It's never called on layups. They never call it. If it went back and did it, yeah, all right, fine. Play your one on him. But I don't think it was intentional.
Starting point is 00:27:54 It's a tough one. One of the things, like when I watch football, I'm always amazed there aren't more like head injuries, neck injuries, stuff like that. When you just see like guys going in and guys coming in from angles and they'll have these slow-mos and you're like, my God, how, how was that not a horrible injury? And the same thing with basketball, these guys going way up in the air and in the paint, there's always like four or five feet. And I always wonder why this doesn't happen more often. People just landing on feet. We didn't, I didn't have that problem when I played pickup basketball, I wasn't in the air a lot
Starting point is 00:28:26 around four or five people. But when you watch, when you watch it at this level, it's like, man, this feels like this should happen once a game. I'm with you. I can't believe it doesn't happen
Starting point is 00:28:36 more often. It's like the Willis McGahee injury where it was devastating. But at the same time, I'm like, guys go at guys' legs all the time. Yeah. I'm surprised it doesn't, surprised it doesn all the time. Yeah. Why this time?
Starting point is 00:28:45 I'm surprised it doesn't happen more. It looked like McGahee's leg was basically detached. Right. And also the foot was planted. So that added to it a little bit. I don't know if it's just a sixth sense that the guys have or what, but yeah, I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often, especially when guys are going up for rebounds and you're just kind of selling out to get the ball and you're not even really thinking about where you're at and you're that high up but um thankfully it doesn't happen were you hoping for a kairi second half re-emergence limping around a la isaiah in game six 1988 finals i don't know what i was rooting for uh to be honest i didn't want him to be hurt by the way
Starting point is 00:29:20 how about milwaukee's arena playing the weekend while he was he was headed back to the tunnel so i was like whoa they they did i didn't hear that yeah yeah oof so i thought they applauded him they the announcer said they the fans applauded him people in milwaukee are nice oh i didn't i didn't notice yeah i didn't notice any like nastiness from the weekend thing you know there's a little backstory maybe everything's cool now but um yeah i'm not on the bucks fans at all i don't i don't remember seeing anything i mean um uh the standard is always the durant toronto game right so um which will be classic just because i mentioned it now people from toronto will be like that's not really that bad go back and watch it it's it's it's even worse they remember it yeah it's horrible it's awful
Starting point is 00:30:04 like when the players are looking at the crowd being like, what is wrong with you guys? I don't know that I've ever seen that before. KD, I'm sorry, Kyrie goes out and they cut to Nash. And he's on the bench. And a half expected and would just pull off the pullover. And he would have his uniform on, do the sports movie, puts himself in.
Starting point is 00:30:25 It's like, oh my God, Steve Nash has hit the game. I feel like he probably would have been better than Mike James. I know he probably isn't playing every day, but I think he at least could have dribbled the ball over midcourt and passed it to somebody. I got to think defensively, they may seek him out a bit. You think they would have hunted?
Starting point is 00:30:40 They might have gone Nash hunting. All I can think of now is movies. It was a forbidden love from World War II. You've never heard. Starring David Spade. There's just been a million of them. John Lovitz is a bank CEO in the height of the crisis. Paul Thomas Anderson's new film.
Starting point is 00:31:06 I was thinking about Nash and the bad luck he had over the course of his career, especially in that 05-08 run, which has been well-documented on this podcast and on the Book of Basketball pod, but it would just be unbelievable if they end up losing this Buck series because they get 43 seconds out of Harden and three
Starting point is 00:31:22 and a half games out of Kyrie. On top of all the other terrible things that have happened to Nash. Some legitimate bad luck shake going back to even 03 when Dirk got hurt during a year that I think Dallas could have won the title.
Starting point is 00:31:39 That was one of those weird... Yeah, the Spurs got it that year. The Spurs ended up getting it that year, but it wasn't really... I don't think it was one of the best five Spurs teams we had. It was got it that year. The Spurs ended up getting it that year, but it wasn't really... I don't think it was one of the best five Spurs teams we had. It was the best Duncan year, but from a supporting cast standpoint, it was not. And that Nets team was good,
Starting point is 00:31:53 but I don't think any of us... You know, like you're not putting it... You'd be listing a few teams for the last 20 years ahead of that Nets team. They cut the Lakers after a three-peat. Dallas, Weber got hurt in Sacramento. He was out was out dirt gets hurt in Dallas. He's out. And it made me think like this might be the year we're having right now because I look back at that. Oh, three season. And I think about more of the injuries and the weird shit that happened. Then, you know, whether the right team won the title or not, the best player won the title, but his team wasn't great. And now you look at this 2021 season, it's like, well, Davis, he's out. Lakers all of a sudden are gone.
Starting point is 00:32:34 That was the team I thought was going to make it. Then you have the Nets. They have this team that looks unstoppable after two games. They might now lose the series. And that's without Harden. Like when you were talking about, hey, they use different bench guys. They also got a 49 in game two. So, yeah, I think that's where some of your bench minutes leak in
Starting point is 00:32:51 when you're up half a hundred. But I like as I watched every team, you know, because I've watched every playoff game. I kept getting back to like the Nets. This might be a wrap. Like it might be a wrap. And that's be a wrap. Like it might be a wrap. And that's without Harden. Like it might be a wrap.
Starting point is 00:33:08 And, you know, even though I like what Philadelphia can do and, you know, Danny Green being hurt, you know, I know we'll do that a little bit later. That might help their defensive rotation just by him not being out there. That certainly was the plan after game one and the disasters against Trey Young. But I kept getting back to like, am I kidding myself thinking anyone can beat this Brooklyn team? And even that was with whatever version of Harden we were getting back later on. And now I'm going, so what if they get eliminated? And your luck thing's right on point. And yet everything I've just said about the Bucs, like I'm not going to change my mind on that.
Starting point is 00:33:41 I thought it was fair about it. I don't know if you agree, disagree, how vehemently you feel about. Because I look at them going, can this team actually win a title? And then they're going to be in the Easter Conference Finals. It's an incredibly flawed team. I mean, they have no bench. They got a tiny bit at home today.
Starting point is 00:33:59 But I don't trust really anybody on their bench in a road game. Let's say they have to win game seven in Brooklyn. How many of the Bucs do you trust in that game? I mean, the big three or their big three. I kind of half trust Lopez. And then I don't know. Elijah Bryant didn't do it for you today? Elijah put up the classic new guy in the pickup game that he shouldn't be
Starting point is 00:34:29 playing in three from the corner. That was three feet over the rim. That thing missed. I mean, even, even the announcers are like, he's a little worked up right now. He's a little adrenaline,
Starting point is 00:34:40 but yeah, I mean, I, they have three and a half guys I trust and I didn't really trust defense Genzo either. His name, I still can't say, but, um, you know, Connaught and a half guys I trust. And I didn't really trust DeFincenzo either, whose name I still can't say. But, you know, Connaughton got hurt today. It's like, oh no, Connaughton's hurt.
Starting point is 00:34:51 Like he's like barely a 10th man, you know? But at least he didn't look scared when he was out there. The Bucks are at a point with their bench. Well, they're at the point with their bench where it's like, can we find three other guys who aren't scared other than our three and a half best guys yeah and the Kyrie that ankle
Starting point is 00:35:10 I mean some guys can come back and play immediately you know some guys don't even leave the game it just looks bad and then they're back and then with this case I mean whatever I was reading it's just going to be the same stuff everybody else is reading online so I don't I don't know but I mean do you still do you think the Nets can win this without both of those guys against Milwaukee? So I took a quick look on Twitter when we did our break.
Starting point is 00:35:36 They're already complaining about the refs. Nash said, PJ Tucker's defense on Durant. I thought it was borderline non-basketball physical at times. I mean, look, if they're not going to call it, look, I thought they were really rough with him too, but I don't think that that's the main reason they lost the game today. No, I agree with you. I searched it because I wanted to see,
Starting point is 00:36:01 I searched Twitter quick because I want to see what happened to Blake Griffin because he didn't really come back. I don't think we saw him in the fourth quarter. And that was one of the things we were talking about a couple of weeks ago. It was like, do you trust Blake Griffin to play four straight playoff rounds? They were putting a lot of miles on him.
Starting point is 00:36:16 By the way, they put a lot of miles on Durant today when they had the guys coming in with six minutes left. And Van Gundy's like, this is too early. I was looking at it like, he's already played 40 minutes. These are 40 hard minutes. They played Friday night. And this guy has a surgically repaired Achilles tendon. And he was in the 2007 draft.
Starting point is 00:36:36 I wouldn't fuck around. I would get him out. They're not going to win this game. So I think physically, it's not just the Kyrie Harden thing. It's an older team that who the hell knows. I think one of the most shocking things to me during this whole series was how important Blake was. And so, you know, if he's not 100%, then now the door's open. If I'm Milwaukee, I'm feeling like this other team's breaking down.
Starting point is 00:37:01 We're in Durant's head. We can actually steal this even though we're not playing well yeah look I mean Blake the overall numbers aren't really much to get you excited about but he impacts the games in the 24-25 minutes he's playing yeah and the fact that he can stay singled against Giannis once Giannis kind of breaks down the wall and wins some of those. And we're talking about like 20 ISO possessions a game for Giannis in the postseason as opposed to 13 a game during the regular season. Blake gives you a chance. And Blake has all those little plays and all the hustle stuff. And he's got a little bit of an attitude, like in a good way out there.
Starting point is 00:37:43 And one of your rules, I mean, despite his standing in the league now, he's not looking at anybody out there with awe because he felt like, you know, at one point he was one of those guys. So I've loved his minutes. Did you see when he hit the, when he hit the three, when he kind of couldn't believe he hit it to start the game. No, I thought he was like talking shit. Like you can't guard me. Like he had that kind of look on his face. I thought it was a laughing yeah i couldn't tell maybe i could be wrong i thought it was kind of a laughing
Starting point is 00:38:09 like you can't guard me not a you know like i'll always get annoyed when it's a bench player when the guy's like one for seven then he hits a three and he's just shaking his head being like nope nope can't guard me you're like what like actually you've done a great job tonight so what are you talking about? I've been thrilled for Blake. I've been happy about all of it. And I mean, we've touched on it last week about, you know, projecting what you think. And does that change?
Starting point is 00:38:37 Like, hey, are we going to pretend guys are done again when they look like they're done? Like, well, we can only go based on what we've seen. But I thought those minutes where, you know, he was out there against Gianis on some of those drives not today but the beginning of the series because the overall numbers for yannis too like i was looking at those bill and you can sit here this is where we can get a little loss like it's the same thing with the paul george numbers but if you just looked in totality of yannis's numbers in the series you'd be like what are you guys talking about yeah he's been great you know like yeah but that's the difference. When you do have the ball forever, getting 25
Starting point is 00:39:08 plus, even 30, actually isn't impossible because he's still so tough to match up with physically. But I think there were just a lot of bad possessions in those first two games that would be tough for anyone to deny. I'm with you. Jeff Green came back today and
Starting point is 00:39:23 somehow played 27 minutes. That was another thing. I mean, that's how desperate they were to find bodies. And I don't know what to make of this series anymore. I thought the Nets were the lock of the year today. The line was between Nets minus one, Nets minus two. I didn't think there was any way they were losing the game. And we've now seen, we saw an Embiid injury,
Starting point is 00:39:44 but it turned out he was okay in the Washington series. We saw the Davis injury that completely swung that series. It may have swung the West. We'll talk about that in part two. And then this Harden-Kyrie combo. And sometimes this happens in the league. Sometimes you just have these years where it's like, all right, that team just kind of stayed healthy.
Starting point is 00:40:04 Mitchell's another one. Mitchell, we don't know if he's going to be 80% the rest of this Clipper series. And he was getting anywhere he wanted, you know, those first two and three fourth games. So sometimes this is the way it goes. All right. We're going to take another break and come back top 40. So I asked you to make a top 40 list a couple weeks ago. Then I asked you again, and I actually gave you enough notice this time. I had been working on mine, and I separated into tiers. I did a whole thing. I'll start here. And this top 40 is always a work in progress. I am going top 40 as if I'm just trying to win a title, who would I want on my team? So that we're starting there
Starting point is 00:40:51 in premise. We're not talking about who would you want for the next 15 years? Who would you want for the next five years? I'm just like, if we're, if we're just picking sides right now and I'm just trying to win this year's title, who would I want? That's one thing. The second thing is I was shocked by how many people are in the top tier or have a chance to be considered as top tier guys. I think it's the most swollen we've had. So anyway, I'll read you my top two tiers, which is really a top. It's like a 1A and then a 1B after.
Starting point is 00:41:22 And then you tell me yours. Right now. KD. Yeah. And then you tell me yours. Right now. KD, Jokic, Luka, Giannis, Embiid, Kawhi, LeBron at seven. That's the lowest he's been for me since the mid-2000s. And then Curry. And then I have a slight drop to a supplemental tier of Dame, Davis, Harden. And then I think it drops. So that's my top 11. I'll do it again. KD, Jokic, Luka, Giannis, Embiid, Kawhi, LeBron, Curry, then Dame, Davis, Harden. What did you have for your top tier?
Starting point is 00:42:01 Well, I didn't know we were doing tiers, but I still kind of did it anyway. You could separate it. whatever you yeah so I go LeBron, KD, Steph, Kawhi, Dame, Giannis, Harden, Jokic, Embiid, Luka but I think Anthony Davis is a top 10 player so I know he was hurt I know everybody's frustrated by him right now I would not separate not separate him from the rest of those guys. And I think I even flirted with Donovan Mitchell, you know, sniffing that. So if I go one, two, three. So we had basically the same top 11?
Starting point is 00:42:41 Just in different orders. Yeah, mine wasn't really even in order, You know, I mean, maybe it was, maybe it kind of was because I feel like, you know, Giannis, like everyone we just talked about before, I'm like, you know, I guess he's a top five player,
Starting point is 00:42:55 but I think we need to reassess when we start saying like, oh, he's the best player in the league. You know, I don't think I'm ever going to say it again. And I know I said it at some stretch last year in the playoffs and then I felt stupid for saying it. And I just don't think I'm ever going to say it again. And I know I said it at some stretch last year in the playoffs, and then I felt stupid for saying it. And I just don't think I'm ever going to say it again. I was surprised I had LeBron seventh in the order,
Starting point is 00:43:12 but it was, it's purely an age thing. I think he's the second best player of all time. I just wonder physically, I don't think he's seventh now. I think that's, well, I just wonder physically, could I count on him for four straight series in the way that I could a while back? That's what it came down to. That's it. It was the only thing I was thinking. Could you do it at this age? The age that he's at, is it conceivable? So who did I have? I had Mitchell in there and you didn't. So my next group right after, 12 through 16, I had Mitchell, Tatum, Trae Young, Booker, and Zion as my 12 through 16, as their own group. And I actually liked that group for a lot of different reasons.
Starting point is 00:43:58 Then the group right after was CP3, Gobert, Kyrie, and Butler in some order. Four guys who just give me a better chance to win the title. I don't know where I'm going, if they're my best guy and I have like a C supporting cast. But if I have a good team and one of those guys are on the team, I'm in good shape. All right, CP3, Gobert, Butler, and who was the other one? I. CP3, Gobert, Butler. And who was the other one?
Starting point is 00:44:26 I had CP3, Gobert, Kyrie, and Butler. So that rounds out the top 20 for me. So basically 12 through 21 was Tatum, Mitchell, Trey, Booker, Zion, slight teardrop, CP3, Gobert, Kyrie, Butler. So it's really a top 21. And then I think it's a distinct drop off after that, the next group of guys. Yeah, man, this is pretty crazy
Starting point is 00:44:49 because we're almost like name for name on this. But I don't have that mysterious 1A tier. I just kind of went from my 12 to the 13 through 20, 21. And so I have Butler. Like I wasn't going to put Paul in a lower tier than Tatum or Zion because I still would rather have Chris Paul for a playoff series than either of those two guys. I just would.
Starting point is 00:45:13 So I could get rid of those 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B and just have a first tier of 11 guys. We could say this is a work in progress and we could do our final list after the season. But yeah, I think there's a top 11. And then there's definitely a next nine. Yeah. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:45:28 I almost have the exact same thing as you because I've got Booker. I've got Tatum. I've got Paul. I put Clay in there though. It's like the last guy. Oh, fuck. I didn't even have Clay in there.
Starting point is 00:45:37 There's by the way, the entertaining part of this list is who is going to have the bigger fuck up because there's no doubt there's always going to be. That's my biggest one. Okay. I just, I was, I looked at all the names. I was looking at
Starting point is 00:45:49 PR for the year to make sure I didn't miss anyone and I just missed Clay because he didn't play a game obviously. Yeah, I double checked it and looked at last year's. So then I have for the next group. So I didn't have Rudy in that group, which I know is criminal to some people, but I don't know. I think I feel okay, but I have him at the top of whatever the next one is. So he's like the 21st, 22nd best player in the league. julius randall jalen brown ben simmons and bam i had those eight and clay should be in there too
Starting point is 00:46:28 so that should really be a nine player list yeah and i could put trey in the second one to extend it out or the top of the next one i mean even rudy too like maybe i just put him make the second group 12 names instead of nine names i mean you know you know, to say, hey, but I just still think for like a game, there's just some of these guys that I would rather have. So, and I know you said it's like the four series, but I think we're kind of talking about the same thing. Because I've got Beal and Westbrook in there.
Starting point is 00:46:55 Probably Beal ahead of Westbrook. I mean, Westbrook's more of a trust thing than it is the numbers. Bam is in that group. And I think Paul George, this is where he deserves to be. Yeah. Seriously. because I think some people would have him higher and you just keep going like
Starting point is 00:47:08 reputation what like defensively no and I know he was terrific in game three but you can't have a parade for a guy because he shows up finally you know the way he played in game three was the best case scenario in our head when we think of Paul George
Starting point is 00:47:23 like this really assertive guy on offense who's all over the place. And he just, he isn't consistent enough with that stuff. It's funny. I talked to my daughter about that just when we talk about sports and what it's like to be an athlete. And at some point, whatever level you're at, you hit a point when everyone at your level is about as talented as you are. Right. And then it becomes about how do you want to keep adding stuff? Do you keep wanting to get better? And the consistency part.
Starting point is 00:47:50 And with Paul George, I just don't know if he's showing up. Like I'm going to the game tomorrow night, Clippers jazz game four. It's Paul George going to show up. I have no idea. He might, he might be out there for two quarters and I might forget he's out there in
Starting point is 00:48:01 the third quarter and be like, Oh my God, there's Paul George. I forgot he was playing or he might have 27 points in the first half. That's just who he is, which is why you always did your 30, 13 thing with them. He's never solved it.
Starting point is 00:48:14 And that's who he is. And it's fucking frustrating. Yeah. I think that's why coaches go crazy too, because when you look at just the Clippers from an effort standpoint, you're like, why did we have to wait two games for this? Why did we have to wait two games for you guys to take on your defensive challenges with more urgency?
Starting point is 00:48:32 Why did we have to wait for Paul George to go like, hey, Paul, you know what you're really good at? It was when you drive, it's hard to defend you. You're big. You're agile. You have a handle. When you're right, you have a touch. And you check out of games. Like when things don't go your way, you start checking out. You you're right, you have a touch and you check out of games. Like when things don't go your way, you start checking out, you get caught in between decisions
Starting point is 00:48:49 all the time. And look, it's never going to change. Like, I don't know if you can get out of that at some point. I think everybody, you know, there's, there's guys walking around that you're just like, I wish this guy approached life differently and it doesn't happen necessarily. So with Paul George, you know, to say, oh, he's not a top 20 guy. Like, this is what's funny about the exercise. Cause if you had said like, oh, this guy's top 40 and you go, maybe not. Maybe not. Not Paul George. I'm not being that ridiculous about it.
Starting point is 00:49:12 But whatever the tiers are, there's easily 20 players I'd rather have in a playoff series than Paul George. And for a while there, he was living in the neighborhood with the first group of guys that we talked about. And it just wasn't accurate. Was he first team all-in-bay or second team all-in-bay they are i don't remember the clippers i just know that the year that the pacers were really you know competitive with the heat it was it was one of those deals where you know the best examples anthony davis sweeps the trailblazers a few years back and you're like wait is anthony davis the best player in the league like it was just one of those deals, right? And I know I've referenced that a bunch of times, but Paul George had a moment where it was, wait, is he the second
Starting point is 00:49:51 best player in the league? And now people can laugh and say, that's absurd to say. Now I'm telling you, at least go back to it. If it were brought up in conversation, it wasn't out of nowhere. It wasn't last out of the room. Here it is. The 2019 all NBA team. He was first team forward. And I think I voted for him for like third or fourth for MVP that year, his Oklahoma city Giannis and Paul George were the forwards. Jokic was the center Harden and Curry were the guards. So didn't he come in third for MVP that year too? I think he did. Yeah. So I just don't think he's gotten to that point again. You could say it's the Clipper situations where weird. The Kawhi match is weird. But he was awesome that Oklahoma City season.
Starting point is 00:50:27 I think we hold that against him a little bit because we've seen him do it for a long time. Because the playoffs, that's the problem, though, is because then they lost. Is that the year they lost to the Jazz with Justin Mitchell? No, that was the year Dame knocked him out. Oh, Dame knocked him out. All right, 17.
Starting point is 00:50:44 17 is when they lost to the Jazz. And I think Paul has one of those horrendous final games. Right. But came back. To his credit. All right. So I have after the top 20. And I think we see this pretty similarly.
Starting point is 00:50:58 The Drew Beal, Paul George, Middleton, Randall, Jalen, Simmons, Bam, Clay. That's nine. I have a tiny tier of Aiton, John Morant, and Towns. A three-person tier of guys that I just think are more valuable than anybody else I'm looking at. Aiton, because I think we've seen the stuff he does at his position in a playoff series, if you have good players around him, is unbelievably valuable.
Starting point is 00:51:27 I know Jokic had a 32-20-10, but I think Aiton's done a pretty good job on Jokic in that series. He at least makes him work to get to his spots. He really doesn't take a lot of stuff off the table anymore. I don't know. I just think he's valuable job look great in towns from a talent standpoint has to be on there. And then to me, it drops to this group of, you know, Sabonis, Zach Levine, Brandon Ingram, Tobias Harris, Vucevic, McCollum, Jamal Murray, Kyle Lowry, Draymond Green, maybe Westbrook, which is slightly more than 40, but
Starting point is 00:52:04 it's like eight of those 10. I think that's pretty much everybody. Is there anybody you had that I didn't have? I think I went Siakam over Lowry. But look, I've got De'Aaron Fox in there, Middleton, Randall, Drew, Jalen, Jamal Murray, Ben Simmons, Levine. I thought about Vucevic, but then I was like, look, I'd rather have CJ McCollum. Jha is in there Murray, Ben Simmons, Levine. I thought about Vucevic, but then I was like, look, I'd rather have CJ McCollum. Ja is in there. Draymond's in there. And I think I got to 40 with Carl Anthony Towns
Starting point is 00:52:32 and Mike Conley. So Sabonis was in my group too. Aiton just missed it. You know, DeRozan wasn't in it. Bogdanovich. Interesting. Aiton missed for you. Aiton missed for me, and I've really loved what I've seen from him. I just need to see more.
Starting point is 00:52:47 I need to see more. I think Tobias Harris, there's probably a few Tobias Harris people going, where's my guy. I think he's just go, go through the exercise and it's, it's pretty tough. And it's also kind of one of those deals.
Starting point is 00:52:59 It's like we say top 40, but based on how slim the margin is on some of this, like where's Shea Gildress Alexander? He deserves to at least be mentioned in whatever this last group is. I had even Porter. I don't think he's a top 40 guy, but I at least had him written down as from a talent standpoint has a chance to get there. Absolutely, talent-wise, but I think at this point he's...
Starting point is 00:53:21 And same for Mikael Bridges. Yeah, he's too one-dimensional. Now, Bridges, who I love everything about him, then I think you're reaching a little bit. talent wise but i think at this point mckay bridges yeah he's too one-dimensional now bridges who i i love everything about him then then i think you're reaching a little bit no by the way we need for a year two years from now yeah we need to clean up that utah oklahoma city thing that was 18 and that's when he had five points in deciding game six paul george and then in 19 was losing in five yeah that was when he was first time on Bay. You're right, you're right. Okay, well, we cleaned it up.
Starting point is 00:53:47 Yeah, we cleaned it up. No problem. So there's a few things I love about this top 40 exercise. One is, so if Clay is in there, that means five teams have three guys in whatever my top 40 is. Brooklyn, Milwaukee, Phoenix, Philly, Golden State. Now, Utah didn't, but Brooklyn, Milwaukee, Phoenix, Philly are four of the five teams
Starting point is 00:54:12 that have a chance to win the title right now. I don't think it's an accident that they have three of the top 40 guys. Golden State would be the other one if you included Clay. These are the teams that have two on my list. Boston, Portland, Denver, Lakers, Clippers, Miami, Utah, Chicago, New Orleans. This is my favorite list though. Zero. Zero top 40 guys. How many teams do you think had zero top 40 guys on my list? 11?
Starting point is 00:54:40 Eight. Sacramento, Detroit, San Antonio. Did you have De'Aaron Fox top 40? I didn't. That's good. Finish 500 once
Starting point is 00:54:51 and I'm, I'll discuss it. Just go 500. Can you go 500? I'm surprised you didn't have Halliburton in top 40. Sacramento, Detroit,
Starting point is 00:55:02 San Antonio, Cleveland, Orlando, Charlotte, Houston, OKC. According to my list, and I'd have a top 40 guy. Here's the amazing thing about Sacramento. From 2009 to 2018, they picked in the draft 4, 5, 7, 5, 7, 8, 6, 8, 5, and 2. And they don't have a top 40 guy on my list.
Starting point is 00:55:26 Like that's like, that's impossible. You couldn't do that? Yeah, it's impossible. It's impossible. I think De'Aaron Fox is at least, like I'm saying, if you're stopping it at 40, there's players I think he's still at the level of of the guys that make your 40 cut.
Starting point is 00:55:40 Like I don't think it's that noticeable drop off where it's, you know, whenever we do these lists, like whenever you say, hey, who's the top 10 player in the league? What I think we'd agree is the list should probably be top 10 or excuse me, it should be like top 11 or top 12. I also think too, like instead of saying top, I think there's a first tier and I don't even know if it goes past six players, maybe not even five players of guys that like truly,
Starting point is 00:55:59 truly change who you are the next day that they're on team. Like, I don't think that list is very long at all, but to have that run of those kinds of picks and only have one guy that's even in the conversation is hard to do. Like that's hard to do. That list you just said, I think is 11 guys. Yeah. I think there are 11 guys that if you have them on your team, it changes who you are as a team immediately overnight.
Starting point is 00:56:22 And, but then Paul should be on the list. No, because we saw Paul on OKC last year. It's like he still needs a certain level of teammates and a certain kind of team to thrive and succeed. And also, let's be honest, if Davis doesn't get hurt, does Phoenix get out of that series? That was a pretty big break. I love the way Phoenix is playing.
Starting point is 00:56:43 They're crushing it. They've won six straight, but you know, they, they did, they did get the Davis break. That was pretty massive. Now, Chris Paul deserves it. He's had more bad luck than probably any star that we've had over the last, probably since Nash. But, um, but that, I don't know if they get past that Lakers series. A couple other things from this.
Starting point is 00:57:04 The, the reason you and I, I think, both love it is we always hear like, oh, that guy, he's one of the best five guys in the league. He's one of the best 10. Oh, he's a top 20 guy. And it's like, I just encourage all the people out there who love this shit, just make your own list. I think you'll be shocked by,
Starting point is 00:57:20 oh, that guy's not a top 20 guy. Oh, he's not a top 10 guy. You nailed it, though, because the top 20 is 10 guy you you nailed it though because the top 20 is the one because the amount of guys that get thrown around we're like oh he's definitely a top 20 guy and i hear it all the time during broadcasts and it also can be the myopic approach of like being just on that broadcast and i'm talking like the national one not the local one where if you said like hey beal's probably not a top 20 guy if you just tweeted it out that would be like met with resistance if you said it about Westbrook I already know the guys that would
Starting point is 00:57:48 come after you for saying it um Paul George Bam like because I've heard Bam like Bam's a top 20 guy you're like uh Simmons Ben Simmons gets talked about but I don't know it's the Simmons thing I think both camps got stronger in their positions this year. Both sides of the battlefield on the Simmons argument, they've just been digging trenches for a year, and they still think my trenches are better than your trenches. It's like a tug-of-war
Starting point is 00:58:15 battle network stars. Yeah, because the thing that Simmons has is he can still have a subpar game and coast behind Embiid's star, where Giannis can't do that. Giannis doesn't get to be the second guy because nobody ever looks at him,
Starting point is 00:58:33 nor should they. And look, Middleton for... I think Middleton's been brought up as a top 20 guy. He isn't. He isn't. He isn't. I think what makes Simmons still...
Starting point is 00:58:44 Why I'm in the pro Simmons camp is what you've seen him do to Atlanta in those last two games where there's just not a lot of guys in the league. Yeah. And actually there's zero other guys in the league who could in back-to-back series guard Giannis and Trey young. That's a fact. And that's why he's special.
Starting point is 00:59:04 And that's why he's special. And that's why I'm getting him in a James Harden trade if I'm Houston. Like, awesome. We got all these picks. Great. I didn't actually get anybody who mattered.
Starting point is 00:59:15 At least on this list, that Simmons list. I had Simmons... I had him 27th. He easily could be 23rd. I mean, he's in the Drew Beal, George, Middleton, Randall, Jalen, Simmons, Bam, Clay, that group. But the thing is, this is what Darrell always told me. When he took that Houston job, he had a team at Caneow.
Starting point is 00:59:38 And we would talk about, can this team actually win a title? And he was like, I think you need three guys. I don't think you can do it unless you're two guys are like Shaq and Kobe. They would have to be like two of the best eight players in the league. Then you could win a title with the two guys. But he's like, what I can do is try to piece together that third guy with these guys who are awesome role players. Like I'm not talking out of school with that. I'm not doing the Jay Williams on KD. Darrell's talked about this publicly. He's talked about it on my podcast. He's like,
Starting point is 01:00:15 I can't find the third star. Can I piece that pieces of third star together where I get Battier and I get Aaron Brooks and I have these guys who are specialists at different things. If you add up the specialties, that makes them a third star. Um, but the truth is if you have three awesome players, it's like in fantasy, if you have a fantasy football team and you have three awesome guys, you're going to finish in the money in your league. You know, it's just the way it goes. That's why guys go, Oh, I'll spend $68 on Christian McCaffrey. Cause as you know, if you get like Christian McCaffrey, one other awesome guy, and then a third guy, you're probably going to finish in the money. So that's basketball. No, look, you're right. And just because you want a third guy doesn't mean you're going to get one either. And I remember all the teams that I would talk to when Paul George was still with the Pacers
Starting point is 01:00:58 and all these teams be like, yeah, they offered us Paul George. And I'd be like, Whoa, you know what, how'd that go? And it's like, well, first of all, you got to deal with the contract problem. Does he even want to stay here? And just like you said with Daryl and like a lot of teams being like, well, we already have our two guys we like and we want to add Paul George to this. Yeah. So we're not giving you one of our guys that is a problem for your guy that might be a little bit better but is a problem and
Starting point is 01:01:25 take away from this. That's the Celtics conundrum, right? If they get, try to get a third star, they're going to have to trade Jalen Brown to get that star so they'll still be a two star. So what's the point? Yeah, unless they were dramatically different. But I mean, with Boston,
Starting point is 01:01:42 I would say, we'll see what happens with the coaching part of it, boston has to worry about guys wanting to stay there and yeah you know the same thing for like portland you know that's why the dame thing for all of this angst about what are they going to do what are they going to do if dame's okay with it meaning he's not knocking neil o'Shea's door down every day saying get me out of here then you just never move that guy because you're never going to get a version of Dame in Portland in free agency. Like it's just not going to happen. That's why, like even with baseball, I'll get annoyed with, with franchises that have like a one in their rotation and the guy will be like on the right side of 30 and they're like, ah,
Starting point is 01:02:19 we're not any good now. So we'll just trade him. And it's like, okay, I get it. But at some point you're going to want this guy. Like at some point you're going to want this guy like at some point you'll want to give 30 million to this pitcher and can't you just ride it out for a couple years while you figure out around him because those guys are hard to get although now everybody's awesome at pitching so
Starting point is 01:02:38 anyway the best case scenario of that which also would have been an awesome trade was when the Celtics could have traded Pierce for Chris Paul and ended up keeping Pierce. And Chris Paul wasn't on a team yet. They could have had the Portland pick for Paul Pierce potentially. And then Pierce caught wind of it. And I think he wanted to stay in Boston and kind of squashed it a little bit.
Starting point is 01:03:02 The way basketball stars can send little feelers out and be like, hey, I'm not going to be happy if I have to go to Portland. But that was a trade that almost happened. It didn't happen. And three years later, they won the title. You know? Would it have been better off with Chris Paul? I don't know. Yeah, because you're already counting
Starting point is 01:03:20 the championship you have in your back pocket. But I always think there's so many deals that when they don't happen, it ends up being the best thing because you're in that year, you're frustrated, things are carrying over, and you want to... But the Iverson to the Celtics thing
Starting point is 01:03:31 that almost happened, and that would have derailed that entire 2007-2008 thing. Yeah. It would have changed it, and you were likely not winning a title with Iverson as your best player compared to Kevin Garnett.
Starting point is 01:03:43 Iverson had two of those because he also had the one where he almost went to Detroit and then Matt Geiger had early kicker and canceled it. Yeah. And like 2000. And then the year later, Iverson goes to the finals. And then the fact that that trade didn't happen,
Starting point is 01:03:55 allowed the Pistons to build their Pistons team, which doesn't, isn't able to happen. If Allen Iverson goes there, cause stack house would have been, I think in the Iverson trade. So it's a, it's it's this whole sliding doors thing. But yeah, so you're right.
Starting point is 01:04:11 Sometimes the best trades end up being the trades you don't make. Other times, there's that fork in the road like the Celtics. If the Kyrie thing just doesn't happen, that trade package was going somewhere. It probably just would have gone to Paul George, right? Instead of Kyrie, they probably would have tried to overwhelm somebody for Paul George before he went to OKC, I guess. I don't know. And then he would have left. Right. So I know that people love talking about Kyrie and being like, he's the reason all of this got derailed. And I'm like, well, I mean, that's one way of telling the story. And it certainly doesn't help when you lose a Kyrie for zero assets. But anyway, none of this got derailed and i'm like well i mean that's that's one way of telling the story
Starting point is 01:04:46 and it certainly doesn't help when you lose a kairi for zero assets but anyway none of this is relevant now we're talking about talking about the kairi thing though because this did come out after danny left um i do think the league i you know there was some stuff about kemba um being really hurt that he was in trade talks a year before and stuff like that. I do think Danny had the reputation, which was well-earned and he certainly did nothing to discourage it. It was just like, I'll trade anybody. You know, you're not like, if we can make the team better, we're making it better. Nobody's safe basically is how the last eight, nine years played out. And I think that's, you know, in the, in this league that is full of, uh,
Starting point is 01:05:26 you know, it's a pro player league now player relations are so important superstar relations, relations with agents, stuff like that. I think Boston had developed the reputation as, yes, as soon as you're not useful to them, they'll trade you. And that's it. And I think he specifically had that reputation. Now I'm not saying that's why he left. I think it was, I don't think he physically wanted to do this anymore. And I think they were kind of not ready to really 100% talk him out of it either
Starting point is 01:05:55 because I think they realized they needed a different kind of vision. But that's a bad label to have as a franchise that you're the franchise that will trade anybody as soon as it's convenient to you. It's a hard one to shake. Yeah, but I also think it's completely ridiculous to think they're the only ones that operate that way.
Starting point is 01:06:10 I'd love to know all the other GMs, if they were offered Kyrie Irving for Isaiah Thomas, the eighth pick in Zizic would say no. And Jake Browder. Like, all right, so what, you guys are like the moral standard because you'd say no to that fucking trade? Bullshit. You guys all would do the trade.
Starting point is 01:06:24 So I don't understand why ange suffers from some you know i remember anthony davis's father saying like oh dude clutch isn't going to put guys in boston anyway so yeah you know it doesn't matter i mean the scary thing could have been the celtics going all in on an anthony davis trade with one of the jays and thinking that that would keep Kyrie around when Kyrie was already gone and just not that many people knew it. And then Davis is like, oh, I'm out of here too. I mean, it could have been even more disastrous because I think you go in a vacuum. Hey, I want Kyrie and Anthony Davis. And that'll prove to Kyrie that we're serious about this when both guys probably didn't want to be in Boston. That's why I think both Tatum and Brown are guys that you go,
Starting point is 01:07:10 you know, you just, whatever the reset button is on that Celtics team, which again, I don't even really want to talk about all that much. It's a reset with maybe completely different pieces around those two guys because they seem to like it in the city. So, or at least Chainland does. Look, I think both of them like the city. But I think, as we've discussed many times over the years, you never know
Starting point is 01:07:30 when you're safe with your superstar. Never. Huge mistake. You always have to be careful thinking like, oh, we're good. He loves it here. I bring it up constantly, but there's somebody right now that's going to want out in a couple months.
Starting point is 01:07:46 We have no idea. We have no idea. And that's, in a weird, perverse way, exciting. It can be annoying. But there's a guy right now that we don't know, and he's going to ask out in two months. I'm looking at the list, trying to figure out who it is, of my top 40. Yeah, it could be... I mean, my worst nightmare would be Tatum.
Starting point is 01:08:11 I really don't think that's a possibility, but if we're just talking about out of nowhere... But yeah, like Mitchell, what if they lose this series, then Mitchell's like, hey, I'm cool with Utah. I'd rather go somebody else. I don't know what to expect. I don't know what to expect with this league. Looking at the list, and this would be a nice one to do a year exactly from today,
Starting point is 01:08:33 because it'll be the finals next year. I think of the people on my list, I'd be surprised if Zion was six to eight spots higher when we do this a year from now. I think it would be pretty hard to keep him out of the top tier. Whatever that top list is of stars, I think he will be on it. He just has to keep doing what he's doing and he's going to win a few more games. And I mean, him moving up six to eight
Starting point is 01:08:57 from my list would be, you know, you'd be flirting with top five. So that seems a little lofty for him, but there's no questioning the production and it's efficient production too because if you're just going straight numbers with some of these guys like look paul george's stats for the series right now look pretty good yeah in the in the utah like when you combine them all together you're like oh you know it's and that's where it's like
Starting point is 01:09:20 no but that's not what i saw and so at at least with Zion, we know how efficient it was because he basically made damn near everything. That's a good topic for us to do way down the road is do our basketball stats officially align to us? Because sometimes I look at box scores and I'm just like, that's just not what I watched. That doesn't reflect what I just saw. That's why I don't trust plus minus a lot of the time.
Starting point is 01:09:48 But the Giannis 16 for 24 today, you would think that was the most awesome game he's had. And some of that was in transition. I thought he was really good in spots. I thought his attacking was the best it's been the whole series. It was smart. He knew in transition, he's like, I'm getting to the rim. And he also, I feel like he went left more today.
Starting point is 01:10:10 I don't know. I could be pulling that out of my you-know-what. But I just felt like he was at least charging left a few more times instead of kind of going always back to his right. He asserted his athleticism. And it wasn't to the point when Nash would be like, oh, and there's DeAndre Jordan. We haven't seen him all series, but I was
Starting point is 01:10:26 wondering if that was going to be in play. I think one of the things I would do if I was the Nets, especially in a game like that that you have to ugly up, I would have brought DeAndre in. I would have gone hacky, honest. I just would have tried to knock the Bucs out of that rhythm. I'm always amazed that teams don't do that.
Starting point is 01:10:42 I think Atlanta should be doing that with Simmons. When sometimes you can feel it in the game where it's like, all right, we're down nine and we have no life and no energy. We kind of need something. What do we need? Popovich was always great at knowing when to do it. He would be like, I don't like the way this game is going. I'm just going to do this right here. And it would work. It would just kind of throw, it would kind of lose the spine of the game all of a sudden. And I think that Nets could have done that today. I still, I don't, I don't think Giannis trusts himself at the free throw line. And I don't understand this 15 second free throw thing. Like just in general, why they haven't intervened with this. Why is he taking that long? It's ridiculous. It's like when you watch these pictures that take 75 seconds to throw a pitch. It's like at some point you got to just trust
Starting point is 01:11:29 your physical gifts. Just go with it. Just three dribbles and shoot foul shot, dude. Get off there. Why do you want to spend more time at a place that you suck at? Well, that's a good point because the longer he's out there thinking about it, but Javi was really good the other night when they were asking about it. And Javi was like, look, Javi gave us the perfect answer where he goes, you know, I called it one time in my entire career. I think this is a guy that was re he goes, what I would do too, because you're aware of it if it's one of those guys that takes longer. He goes, but I would let him settle in and then kind of start the count. Because I'd rather be giving you the benefit of the doubt than trying to count it perfectly at you touching the basketball. And then there's a chance I could be calling you a violation at like 9.5 or 9. Yeah. He's like, I don't want to do that. And so I thought that was a great explanation. And honestly, I don't really care. And clearly the league doesn't care that much that,
Starting point is 01:12:32 you know, I thought the Quran Butler talking the rest into it in the middle of the game was like a bad look for the refs. Cause you're like, wait, you're just going to get bullied by Quran Butler on the sidelines. Like that's weird. And so I,
Starting point is 01:12:42 I don't know, I guess it doesn't really bother me all that much. It just doesn't. So if they don't call it, I don't think it's that big of a deal. And I know Mark Jackson's constantly like, I just need you to be consistent. That's all I'm asking. Consistency. And you're like, punishment is not consistent.
Starting point is 01:13:00 Punishment, there is inconsistencies throughout the way a game is called the one thing i don't like is i think when somebody takes too long or does whatever and the guys don't know when to jump into the lane to box the other person out when it's actually screwing up how people react to the rebound i think that's when the refs have to step in and be like hey dude you got to shoot this faster or you can't have this giant hitch when you're about to shoot. But that's not how this goes. Just shoot the fuck free throw. We're going to break for part one.
Starting point is 01:13:31 We're going to come back for part two. We have saved the following subplots. Jazz Clippers, Suns Nuggets Game 4, which let's be honest, part two of our podcast will be a 20-minute Chris Paul victory parade for you, which I couldn't be more delighted.
Starting point is 01:13:50 I couldn't be more delighted for you if that happens. What a great pod that'll be. And then we got to talk a little Sixers Hawks too. And if there's time, I made you watch Mayor of Easttown and we're going to recap that. So that's all. Plus you'll be a little groggy because you're on the East Coast. So that's all coming Plus you'll be a little groggy cause you're on the East coast. So that's all coming up in, uh, in part two,
Starting point is 01:14:06 uh, the producer part one was our friend, Kyle Creighton. Great job, Kyle. Great job, Kyle. Kyle.
Starting point is 01:14:14 Great job. You were, you were like the, who's, who's a, who's a good third banana in the playoffs right now. Rudy Gobert. Is Rudy Gobert a third banana or a second banana? Feels like a
Starting point is 01:14:26 second. He's the second best player on the team, isn't he? Reggie Jackson? You know, I've liked Reggie. I like this version of Reggie Jackson. He's been good. I really like this version of Reggie Jackson, too. When he's a max player running your offense, it's an issue. When he's a guy that you've got to trust to have the stones and take some big shots
Starting point is 01:14:41 on a team that I think consistently, maybe they've changed their culture overnight, but I think we'd always agree like the doubt with the Clippers. It didn't feel like they had a ton of foxhole guys. I think Reggie Jackson is one of those guys though. I measure my, my feelings on these guys by when they do the thing where they make the three and they turn to the crowd and they pull their Jersey and start screaming
Starting point is 01:15:00 obscenities at everybody about how great they are on a scale of one to 10, how I'm like, get the fuck out of here. You suck. And with Reggie Jackson, I haven't been reacting that way this playoffs. I've actually been like, yeah, you've kind of earned that. You've earned the Jersey pole. You've been, you've showed up in a lot of these games. I've been impressed. No, he's had some like big quarters here and there. And I was always, I was always down on when he was like a Detroit.. Then I thought, okay, well, if you... Now, there's a weird thing that happens as a player,
Starting point is 01:15:28 but there'll be this wake-up call like, hey, whatever you thought your ceiling was, it's actually a little bit lower, man. Sorry. And I think he was one of those guys. It was hard for him to realize that. And now that he's accepted whatever role we would classify it as with the Clippers,
Starting point is 01:15:43 it's a guy I'd like to have on my team now, where he was somebody that I was like, do not touch there for a while. I wish he was on the Celtics. All right, we'll see you in a few hours for part two. All right, that's it for part one of the special two-parter. We're going to be coming with part two, probably about two, two and a half, three hours
Starting point is 01:16:01 after the Suns-Nuggets game. We're going to watch that one. We're going to react. We have a whole bunch of other stuff planned for that one. See you then. Yes, we can. On the wayside. I'm a Bruce Allen liberal. I don't have to ever forget.

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.