The Bill Simmons Podcast - Part 2: 10 Burning NBA Questions (Plus Kyrie) With Chris Ryan, Joe House, Rob Mahoney, J. Kyle Mann, Seerat Sohi, and Van Lathan

Episode Date: June 22, 2022

(1:51) Will Daryl Morey and the 76ers make a trade? | With Chris Ryan (15:42) What are we expecting from the Wizards and Bradley Beal? | With Joe House (28:55) What are the Nuggets' and Heat's trade assets? | With Rob Mahoney (42:26) Favorite wings in the draft | With J. Kyle Mann (56:06) What is the Warriors' title window, and can they extend it? | With Seerat Sohi (1:09:40) BONUS: What is going on with Kyrie Irving and the Nets? | With Van Lathan Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Chris Ryan, Joe House, Rob Mahoney, J. Kyle Mann, Seerat Sohi, and Van Lathan Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's part two of NBA Burning Questions heading into Thursday's draft, one of my favorite days of the year. In either part, I'd like to apologize to the fans from Houston and Detroit and Indiana, kind of Portland, San Antonio, Charlotte, and Cleveland. Those are the latter teams that we didn't really talk about.

Everybody else is covered in these two parts. It's all next. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this. It's game day. All the gang's here. You're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're standing at the grill and the smell of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that. Or when you want a light beer that tastes like beer,

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FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet it all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the Chargers are going to be good. I think Seattle's going to be good. And then trying to back what you think in those first few weeks and then zag the other way. If you were wrong, you could bet on new and fun markets on FanDuel, like to catch your pass, same game parlays, highest scoring game across the Sunday

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Please visit RG-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. You must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem called Win 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. Again, a new Rewatchables is coming Wednesday night. We did the Untouchables. Me and Chris Ryan. Stay tuned for that. If you missed part one, you can go find it. Talk to Kevin Clark, Kevin O'Connor, Raheem Palmer, John Jastrzemski, Big Waz.

We talked about favorite things in the draft for the top three favorite players. Best wings. Raheem gave us some MVP picks. JJ told us what might happen with the Knicks. Waz broke down Utah's precarious situation heading into Thursday. Part two coming up. Chris Ryan, Joe House, Rob Mahoney,

J. Kyle Mann, Sirit Sohi, and Van Lathan talking about Kyrie, but we are going to cover more of the NBA side this time. What's Philly going to do? Where's Bradley Beal going? Could Miami make a play for a big star? Who are the wings we should be watching out for this draft and who could have played in the finals we just watched?

Do the Warriors need to do anything? And again, what the hell is going on with Kyrie? It's all next, first, our friends from Pearl Jam. Chris Ryan is here. He's on the rewatchables with me a lot, including tomorrow. We're doing the untouchables, a half decent movie that we both watched a million times. Also a diehard Philly fan.

The burning question for you, Chris Ryan, what does Daryl Morey have up his sleeve? What's going on with this guy? He's, he's not going to be static. We know how he thinks. He wants to win the title. He's never won the title.

He's never made the finals. What does he have up his sleeve? Let me ask you something. What do you think Daryl saw when he watched the finals? Do you think he saw two teams that were led by multiple stars, or do you think he saw depth? Because I think that's the big question facing the Sixers going into the offseason is whether or not they're going to go hunting for

a third star, possibly at the expense of crown jewel Tyrese Maxey, or whether or not they're going to try and basically swap out their depth for more depth for better depth and kind of mimic what you saw to some extent

the Warriors have there, which is like they could use some combination of seven to nine guys in a much more productive way than the Sixers were. Because like right now I'm at that point where when you watch the finals, you had the luxury of having your team in it. But when you watch the finals, that looks like a different sport than

the one that your team was playing. And you're just kind of like, I don't know what the roadmap is to that. I say this a lot, but the finals to me informs every decision I'm thinking about for draft and for agency. If you're offering me a guy who can't play in what I just watched, then why am I interested in that guy? You can get gimmick guys that can win you a round or two rounds, whatever. But you're right. It was depth. It was defense. It was get gimmick guys that can win you a round or two rounds or whatever, but you're right. It was depth.

It was defense. It was two-way guys. It was chemistry and continuity. The irony is if you traded Simmons for something else other than try to do the star model, you probably would have had some of the depth that you're talking about, right? Yeah. If you do Simmons for

Buddy and Halliburton, it just feels like you've got a couple more pieces to throw. You've got a couple of different combinations to try. Yeah. Well, you can't do that. You can't. The first decision is James Harden.

What are you hearing? There's all kinds of weird rumors about Harden right now, about Philly trying to get him on a shorter deal, about maybe him exploring the free agent studio space. What, like Brian Wilson with Pet Sounds?

Yeah, he's explored a little bit. There's some San Antonio. He's always gotten along with Popovich. He always liked Texas. There's some Houston comeback stuff. No. I don't know what to believe. The Tillman Harden reunion?

They're back. They're going to hash it out. Listen, if LeBron and Dan Gilbert can reconcile, I'm not ruling out anything. My guess is that Philly will sign Harden, but it will not be for the Mavs. That would be insanity. Opt-in and then two years on top.

So he gets his opt-in year, and then I think they're going to do two more years extension. And walk me through the Philly fan base as they react to that news. I think that while, I think as long as it's not the full five year or the full, yeah,

I guess it would be the five year if he opts out, then he can get the five. I think everybody is like comfortable with it. We made our bed. This is who Daryl traded Simmons for. He knows Harden better

than everybody. We all saw that he had basically five good games in him in the second half of that season. I was basically on acid after those five games. I thought it was the coolest thing I'd ever seen. And then it all fell apart. He was pretty useless. Maxie became the second

best player clearly on that team down the stretch. And then Tobias might have usurped Harden in the playoffs. So it's just kind of like, it is what it is. It just can't be for four years. It can't be that there's a long-term commitment to him. And you're convinced Maxie stays on the team? Unless they go

for this Beale deal that weirdly people have divined from Windhorse's appearance on Greeny, where it was like, he kind of laid out a scenario in which the Sixers were looking for additional talent. And then it was

basically intuited from something Windhorse said that that was Beal, and it would have been Tobias and Maxie for Beal. Tobias and Maxie for Beal. Well, I said this on my podcast in February, Tobias and Maxie for Beal. Well, I said this on my podcast in February. I don't just throw shit out on the pod.

It's usually like, this is stuff I believe in and I'm saying it for a fact. Embiid wanted Beal. That was always what was going on. And the front office was pushing for Harden. Then Beal got hurt and it's made the decision for them. But I do think there's a Beal and Bede thing. And, you know, I think it's a possibility. I just, to me, I don't know.

Doesn't that feel very like three, four years ago thinking though, to be like, we're just going to get in Bede, Harden and Beal together. And then we'll worry about filling out four through 10. Maybe we'll get, it's like, I don like, can they even afford PJ Tucker if that happens? I don't even know where they would get the guys to fill that out. We just watched this happen with Brooklyn. You know what I mean? I don't want a team that's so top-heavy.

So you're saying it's like walking into Netflix and being like, I have an idea. It's a show about... It's during the tech era. And it's a little like WeWork. It's just too late at this point. It's during the tech era. And it's... It's like... It's a little like WeWork. And one of the... Like, it's just too late

at this point. It's the 80s. There are these kids. They found another dimension. Are you guys buying? What are you thinking? You guys don't have anything like that, right?

I think the three-star thing is shot its wad for a variety of reasons. I'm with you. Especially because once you turn your franchises over to these guys, good luck. To some extent, I think it's still dictated.

There's a popular line of thinking that the Bucs would have been in the finals if it wasn't for the Middleton injury. You are dependent on your best players. I'm not saying that that would make a huge difference, but there's something about going all in

on Beal, who has coming off this wrist injury, and Bede, who's a little bit injury-prone, although obviously back-to-back runner-up in the MVPs. And then Harden, who's like, we're just not even sure whether or not he's anywhere close to his MVP level, whether he'll ever

approach that again. And just tying up like, what, 70% of the salary cap and three guys like that? This doesn't make much sense to me. Well, it should also scare whoever is thinking about trading for Beal is the feelings about the Washington fans, like not completely flipping out that

they might lose Bradley Beal, I think is an alarming sign. And then there was also like, I guess Stein just reported that Beal wants to be the Dirk of Washington, which I don't even know if Washington fans are just like, thanks. What does that mean? Like, Dirk actually had success in Dallas. I know.

That's a weird one. Yeah, Beal, Harden, and Embiid with no depth. I don't know where that gets you. But I don't know how much different, I don't know how much roster turnover you can get out of Danny Green. He basically has one year guaranteed left, but it has to be taken care of by July 1st. Well, you can trade him for somebody and then that person can immediately waive him.

So weirdly, he's a trade asset, even though he can't walk. I thought that loophole had closed, basically, on that. I wasn't sure about that. But I think he has a little less value. But there's Green. They have, obviously, Tobias. And there have been noises

that Tobias was... In the Philly papers, there was some talk about Tobias wanting out. And then there's Furkan who's supposed to be a shooting specialist who can't shoot right now.

So we don't have a ton of assets aside from 23. They've worked out a couple of guys at 23. I always love a draft pick, but it doesn't seem like Daryl loves, loves playing draft picks

or loves, loves staying in the first round. Where's Dame Lillard during all of this? I don't know. Waiting for Phil Knight to buy the Blazers? Like,

if you're, if you're going to be flopping Maxie and Harris around as a package, wouldn't you, if you're going to be flopping Maxie and Harris around as a package, wouldn't you have to kick the tires on Dame with that if that's actually a possibility?

And just let, and say to Portland, go ahead and tear it down and you have Maxie. Yeah. And if I'm Portland, you know, I guess it would depend,

like, how good do you think Maxie is? Is Maxie ever an all-NBA point guard? On this trajectory? I mean, are we sure he can't make it to third team on this trajectory? Could he be one of the six best point guards or one of the six best guards in the entire league?

That's tough. That would make him an all-NBA guy. You're talking like at that point, you're 24, 25 a game. You're probably in the 50-40-90 range. Yeah. I mean, his defense is still an issue, but he's the kind of guard that

first of all, he's a fan favorite and second of all, it's just like I hate selling on these guys so young. You know what I mean? For me, it's just like, this kind of goes back to what you would trade Sims for I would much rather have like younger more interesting guards with like more of a story

to tell than like just be like yeah we'll just get hope that Beal and Bede and Harden can can work together or we like Lillard and Harden like can you see those guys ever reaching a defensive effort level of Boston and Golden State that we just saw?

You're just trying to outscore people. So what are we talking about? Yeah. What's interesting about the Philly fans I know, including you, is that there's this feeling like, well, Darryl will figure it out. He's one of the best. I get to do this because he made fun of me on Twitter this week. We've been friends for a long time. Yeah, he made fun

of the whole time. Are you going to do it? Are we sure he's good? You're fucking right I am. Are we sure Dale Moore is still good? Are we sure? I mean, the Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook trade is one of the worst trades of the last 10 years. He pushed

all his chips. He had a Lowry seasoning up against his head when he made that trade. You know that. Did he? Yeah. Come on. Maybe he liked the trade. Maybe he was fired up by Westbrook. I don't know.

No, I'm having fun, obviously. But his last four years haven't been awesome. Even the way they played the Simmons thing, leading to like James Harden is our guy. He'll answer all our prayers. Then you get this guy who just physically doesn't seem like he's the same person anymore. Not to mention the competitive stuff with him and the, and the match of him and Philly feels like a bad fit. Like if I had to bet, if you gave me like the roulette wheel of Philly bets,

the easiest bet would be that this season's going to suck. If you're a Philly fan, that it'll be kind of a, the season you just had on acid where it's like, I feel bad for him bead. Oh my God. Harden. God, did you see him last night? He was so bad as he washed. And then it's like Harden at 38.

Oh, Harden's back. And it's just going to be this rollercoaster ride. Cook the magic in Orlando. Yeah. Right. Right. And that's just going to,

how it's going to go. Not to mention the, the, I don't know. It's just a weird fit, the players together. And then what you talked about at the beginning. It's like, does this team resemble the

finals I just watched in any way other than that we have an overpowering guy? Yeah. Do they resemble Memphis? Do they resemble the Heat? Do they resemble any of the teams in the second round? I mean, I guess that's the thing that kind of bothers me is just because that kind of stuff comes from

the Dylan Brooks' on the team and the kind of bothers me is just because that that kind of stuff comes from you know the dylan brooks is on the team and the the the kind of like the the bulldogs on the team that i don't know that we really have i think fiable was supposed to be that and it that didn't obviously did not work out that he seems the safest bet to be going somewhere yeah i mean but you have to find somebody who's just like we think that we can fix him or we think that he we need his defensive activity. And it doesn't matter that he's like a complete zero on offense. The bummer is losing, losing Seth in that trade when he was the guy who out of anyone you've ever

had fit the best with Embiid for whatever reason. Yeah. I mean the first, the guy, the guy who fit the best with Embiid other than JJ, I will say that I don't know if Seth is like, I would have been interested to see Seth Curry play in the Sixers playoff rotation

because it might have, I think traditionally he's been a little bit exposed when it gets to the postseason. No disrespect to him, but it was just, that just seems to be the case. And he was hurt. Yeah, and he was hurt.

Before we go, I'm going to have to ask. I'm going to do the Scott Van Pelt. Chris, I wouldn't be doing my job I'm just a guy with a podcast I'm just a guy with a pod And a microphone And I Listen I just

I just feel like I have to ask this one question Chris Would you be surprised If there was a Joel Embiid Not for another year And I'm not even going to let you Finish the fucking question

It's not It's going to be another year at least I don't remember anyone swearing At Scott Van Pelt On SportsCenter for another year. And I'm not even going to let you finish the fucking question. It's going to be another year at least. I don't remember anyone swearing at Scott Van Pelt on SportsCenter. So you think the first Joel is unhappy and he wants to go to the Knicks or wherever that we're a year away?

No, that's not what I said. I said we're at least it's not, for at least another year, it won't happen. You said, don't put words in my said. I said we're at least it's not for at least another year it won't happen. You said I'm not don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say we're a year away from Joel leaving.

I have to say it's like at least going to be another year of this. No, from the first unhappy story. When does that happen? Yeah. Like what if what if they're like

two what if they're like two or three games over 500 at Christmas or at the trade deadline? Sources. And it's just sort of like, what are we doing here?

Sources. And being unhappy. All right. Chris Ryan, good luck this week. Hope you make it through it. I feel like I got used. I feel like I,

I feel like I came on here. You got to, you got to look down. What do you mean? My team just lost in the finals. We're both lost. There was one winner in the season

and it was neither of our teams. Look, Bill, I'm just a podcast guest. I got to ask this question. See you later. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring,

he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. All right. We just talked about Bradley Beal and the Sixers and whether that was possible. Let's go to the world's preeminent Bradley Beal expert, Joe House. That's me. Talk about what the Wizards are going to do. The Wizards are in one of the power seats as we head into the last 48 hours

before the draft here. You have the 10th pick in the draft. You're always a trade-up candidate. You have the Bradley Beal piece where if he decides he doesn't want to sign the extension, now it becomes sign and trade central for him. What are we expecting from the Wiz?

Bradley Beal is not going to leave $64 million on the table. He is definitely going to sign the extension. And the Wiz might nibble around the edges with that 10th pick and move up if Dyson Daniels is there or Matherin is there or move back if somebody wants to offer them two firsts for that 10 spot. But we're looking at another wonderful 39 to 41 win team that is on the outside, you know, playing on the playoff bubble. We can't wait to play Charlotte or I don't know who will be there this year.

And, you know, just run it back. It's been a great 40 years, Bill Simmons. This is the wizard's mindset of try to get a lottery pick, but not too high. Try to build enough that you could be, have a frisky first round exit where you take somebody to six, and then the next year you go backwards and you get the ninth pick again.

It just rinse and repeat. Rinse, lather, rinse, repeat, baby. I like where you're picking because I really like that. I said this to KFC earlier. I really like that 8 to 13 range in this draft. I think you're going to get somebody good

with that pick. Even if it's like, I really like Sohan on Baylor. Johnny Davis. Sure. A lot of people like professional scorer. You've always liked the professional scorers over the years. Yep. Played in big games.

I like Johnny Davis. Mark Williams, the center from Duke, might be a little too early. AJ Griffin is another one who might have a little more talent than the spot, but it would seem like the most wizardy pick would be the kid from New Zealand who can't shoot. It's a 6'10", 200-pound kid. Dang. I haven't heard that name. I've heard a lot of other names. KOC feels like he's

the ninth best player in this draft, but he feels very wizardsy to me. Somebody, a tantalizing guy with a potential flaw, which in this case, he can't shoot well the wizards need defense and so if they can develop a conviction around any of those guys in that 8 to 13 range that can really really really really play defense then i think that's the direction that they'll go they have shooting in a way like you had that covered with kispert. Rui showed and improved, you know, in the 35 games that Rui deigned to play for the Wizards last year.

After whatever challenge he confronted, he was able to overcome. He shot the ball pretty well. And so they have still these young assets. Kuzma wasn't horrendous shooting-wise. KCP, professional shooter. So I'm not worried about getting shots up from the wings. They need defense. They need a defensive identity.

They need to play defense. It would be great. I thought that was Wes Ensel Jr.'s calling card. Didn't see a ton of it last year. 2015 in the league defensively. Poor Zingas, not known for his defense, but you know. Yeah. Hope springs eternal, Bill Simmons.

Well, the most fun pick for you would be Matherin just because that would be you know, an old school dog. Well, that would be incredible except he's not going to be there. So it would have to be a trade up probably because isn't he in that in the five to eight range more likely allegedly, but

sometimes they say that and then the guy ends up red in the range. He was in. I like Sohan for you the most. That's fine. There's plenty of upside there. He's very solid. The timeline for him to be making a contribution professionally isn't as long. You don't have to sit and wait for him to develop. So that would be wonderful if that's the way they go. Okay. So now that we've talked all about this, Bradley Beal, who I think people will say, all right, he's going to sign the extension and then probably be sniffing around by December and he's going to grab the money. That's me. My hand's up. Correct. Agreed. He always gets thrown around in these, you know, how somebody could improve their team, whatever people are talking about, a big three and so-and-so city, whatever superstars that are available. Can you do your Bradley Beal thing just for the uninitiated? Why you think to this point, Bradley Beal has not been a superstar and why he shouldn't be thrown in with some of these other guys? Because he's not a superstar. And his resume reflects it.

He is a very talented scorer. He's a good to great offensive player. He averaged 30 points a game for two consecutive seasons. I think he led the Eastern Conference in scoring for two consecutive seasons. He is, to me, on a real genuine finals kind of contender. That is the Eastern Conference or Western Conference finals if your

ambition is to be in that class so you can have a chance to play for the NBA championship he has to be your third option he can't even be your second option if you have genuine ambition in that direction because his best his ceiling defensively is zone defense like the

very best you can hope for out of him is that he's in a system that hides his inability to really guard anybody at his position one-on-one. He gets annihilated by every wing in Eastern Conference. He can't guard any of them. And that's somewhat, you know, a problem that is reflective of the Wizards defensive scheme or lack thereof over the years. But Beal also is a guy that doesn't necessarily really want the ball

at the end of games. There's a reason that if you look at last season, Kyle Kuzma was the guy who was taking the big shots and getting the big shots and had the confidence to take all of that. If I had a dollar for every fourth quarter free throw that Bradley Beal has missed, he's entering his year 29 season. I think this is his 10th season in the NBA. Fourth quarter free throws are, to me, among the most invaluable assets. He, in games like, if you ran all the advanced metrics or whatever, games within seven points

or something in the fourth quarter, he loves to miss those fourth quarter free throws. Free throws that would make a difference potentially in the outcome of the game. And so I think he's a perfectly valid and viable third banana for somebody.

But the problem is, in the inimitable fashion of the Washington Wizards, this tradition goes all the way back to Juwan Howard, Bill Simmons. We love to find a third-rate talent and play him as though he's a super-duper star.

Two trades for you. I'm listening. Tyler Hero, Duncan Robinson, and one other contract for Beal. Do I get any picks? You get some picks. Got to have some picks.

You want some picks? Yeah, got to have some picks. Got to have, because that, I think, advances the ball a little bit. Now, you have to have a really strong belief in the idea that you can corral Tyler Hero. Tyler Hero thinks very highly of himself. The sixth man of the year. He feels like he's starter caliber, starter quality. He would be a starter here in Washington. That much I can confirm. But what kind of chemistry might he have with the other young players on Washington? And what is the goal if Tyler Hero is your best player or your second best player?

What is the goal? What's the ceiling for that team? The problem with that trade is I think Lowry has to be in that trade. Oh, God, no. And then you would have to give a contract back and it gets complicated. This next one doesn't get complicated, though. It's just Tyrese Maxey and Tobias Harris for Bradley Beal I would do that in a heartbeat absolutely positively I've been saying it for as long as anybody would listen I think Tyrese Maxey has the ability and every Sixers fan in my life says

go f yourself go jump off a building we're not giving up Tyrese Maxey under any circumstances. They all believe in Maxey. And that's because that dude has got that dog in him. You mentioned that just a little bit ago. He definitely has it. And all the Sixers fans recognize that. I feel like the Sixers fans think that's too high a price to pay for Bradley Beal. Yeah, I think you would have to throw in Kispert or one of your wings in that trade to even make that a real conversation.

But yeah, for what it's going to cost Beal, it's going to be like what? Because it's sign and trade, it would be $250 million at that point? Yes, correct. It's a pretty steep price. Feels like it, doesn't it? Big, big contract for a guy whose best attribute is he was here. I mean, 30 points a game, it's fine. Would you describe him as durable?

Well, I mean, other than he had a wrist injury this year, 40 games, running up to this, he has been pretty durable. He has been decently viable. He did not have the same kind of complicated injury history as John Wall. Can I zag against you on Bradley Beal before we go? If you want, go ahead, take a shot at it.

I went to that game seven, aka the Kelly Olenek game in 2018. Yes. Which we've agreed never to talk about again for our friendship. I thought Beal was your least afraid guy in that game. Sure.

And the reason, one of the reasons you lost other than the fact that Kelly Olenek was just throwing everything in for whatever reason was the John Wall was pretty worn out. He played big minutes. He didn't have the backup point guard for him. And the Celtics were just letting him shoot and he couldn't make them. Beal,

I thought was awesome in that game, or at least that's my memory of it. And then you look at the last couple years, right? Wall gets hurt. The 20 season just ends. And then we have the bubble. The Westbrook season. He played basketball with Russell Westbrook.

It was just the two of them. They ended up making the playoffs. It's the last successful moment of Russell Westbrook's career as a basketball player. I don't know. Has he been in the greatest situation, I guess would be my question. Definitely not, but we can't go five years back and say his performance in that series five years ago is the true version of him. Four years ago. Four years. Pardon me. I mean, it feels like there's a lot of evidence since then that might play a role and play a factor in how you think about him and what his contribution might consist of. I just think if you take the pressure off of him by putting him alongside a super duper star, he might be super effective because he definitely has the skill set. He can get to the basket.

He can finish most of the time. He's not very well respected by the refs, but he's respected enough. He gets some calls. Doesn't get super duper star calls. Alright, before we go, you have 35 seconds to explain to people why they should trade for John

Wall on an expiring contract. Because he hasn't played basketball in two years and haven't you watched the YouTube videos? The guy is jumping through the roof. He's jumping through the ceiling. He's got his bounce back. He's got his spring back. All kidding aside, he's one of the

best distributors of the basketball I've seen in my tenure as a Washington fan. He made a lot of guys rich. He made Martel Webster rich. He made a lot of guys rich. He made Martel Webster rich. He made a lot of guys who could sit out on the corners. He helped Trevor Ariza

get another contract. Over his time here, he was an awesome passer. Go back and look at the little vignette that Zach Lowe put together. I think it was for Grantland during his time there. I remember that.

Yes, about John Wall as a passer of the basketball. An extraordinary innate sense of where guys are and how to feed them in a way that they're in their shooting rhythm. You can't teach that. And if he has any of that, then he's going to be a valuable asset for a team. I think he's a really interesting buyout guy this year.

I agree. And maybe even a trade piece. Because now people have just thrown John Wall aside like he's nothing. I do think, to me, he makes sense

as somebody you could bring in who, if you needed a point guard distributor or whatever, I think, like I'm thinking about him for the Celtics. If you got him as a buyout,

it'd be amazing. You beat me to it. I was just going to say, you know who could have used him this postseason? The Boston Celtics could have used him. They needed a guy

who wasn't going to turn the ball over one out of every three They needed a guy who wasn't going to turn the ball over one out of every three times and a guy that was going to catch his wing players in the position and rhythm that they need to be successful. All right. We're both buying John Walsh's house. Good to see you. Good luck on Thursday.

Always. Thank you, buddy. What does possible sound like for your business? It's having the spend that powers your scale with no preset spending limit. More cash on hand to grow your business with up to 55 interest-free days. And the ability to reach further with access to over 1,400 airport lounges worldwide. Redefine possible with Business Platinum. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply.

Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. All right, Rob Mahoney is here from an excellent website called theringer.com. We are going to talk about two burning questions that are related to each other, Miami and Denver, two teams that I think are one move away from potentially being a finals team or maybe even a champ, who knows? Question from Miami.

How real are their trade assets, Rob? What needs to happen for them to go up a level? Is it even possible? What do you think? Well, I think a lot of that comes down to what is Tyler Hero's reputation around the league and how does that compare to whatever stock the Heat are

going to put into his future? Because we saw in these playoffs they need offensive creation in a big way. Hero was a little dinged up, so maybe it's not the fairest evaluation of what he can do, but they got to pull the plug on something here. They really are in a position of urgency similar to the Nuggets.

A lot of pressure to get better quickly just because they don't have... These other top teams in the Eastern Conference have superstars or star-level players who are entering their prime, who are in their prime. Jimmy Butler is the best player they got and he's not getting any better than we just saw. And he's got

a prohibitive contract. I mean, his dollars end up in the 50s, I think, in the last two years. So Hero's contract, first of all, he's an RFA a year from now. And he's very tradable. He's in the four range.

They have Robinson, who I'm sure they're going to try to move. He's 16.9 next year, and he's got four years left, so it escalates. Kyle Lowry's 28.3 and 29.7. So the hero thing, because I agree with you, I think he would be the centerpiece of a trade. I was messing around with the trade value list, which I think I might actually post draft

unveil, but I had him in a list. And I don't, by the way, I'm not finalizing this, but just this was the group. And I don't even know what the ranking is. It's just a tier that I think he's in. You tell me if he belongs in this tier. If it's the wrong tier, he should be a tad higher. DeJounte Murray. Jalen Brunson.

Desmond Bain because of the contract. Herb Jones because of the contract, Wiggins, big contract, but delivered on the biggest stage, Jared Allen, Jordan Poole, Fred Van Vliet, DeAndre Ayton, big contract RFA, and Mikael Bridges, who also has a big contract. Do you think he belongs in the list of guys I just said? I love that Herb Jones snuck in there. Let's just get him in. Let's just sneak him in.

Great contract, great defender. But a lot of the guys you mentioned are very clear parallels for Hero. Like Jordan Poole, you can see column A, column B, they do very similar things. Even someone like Jalen Brunson, who has had his ups and downs in the playoffs, obviously was very great in this playoff run, was not so great previously.

Is that him getting better? Is that just like randomness you never really know with some of these young guys? I think Hero's in that same category where he's had some amazing playoff moments, but maybe not enough to like bowl you over in a way that if you're one of the other 29 teams, you're just gung-ho to trade your star player for a package centered around Tyler Hero.

Right. And the other thing is Riley. I think Riley's post-season press conferences are always illuminating. His whole thing about two-way players felt very deliberate to me. He went out of his way to mention this is a thing that they care about if they want to win the title and we're just not sure of him as a two-way player. If you go a group higher, that's when you get into the group that has Donovan Mitchell and Bradley Beal and

DeMar DeRozan and people like that. That's too high for sure. Yeah, yeah. But if you're doing a three-for-one, there's future picks, Hero's the centerpiece of it and you're trying to get Bradley Beal or you're trying to get Donovan Mitchell. I think you and I see this the same way. Miami's always up to stuff. It always feels like a trade that doesn't seem probable. For some reason, they pull it off. Even I look back at just the Jimmy Butler trade they were able to pull off. I'm still not positive why Philly even participated in that

or wanted to help. There was no other way Miami could get Jimmy Butler, but they did it. And this is what they've done over and over again. And I guess if Durant ever became available, which who knows, Miami would be another thing for that. But with the Hero thing specifically, I think it's Donovan Mitchell. If he was somehow on the table, What does that trade look like? Let's just say it's possible. What does Utah want back other than Hero and picks and pick swaps? What else is in it? Yeah, I mean, Hero is definitely the starting point. And I think it's not just that it's picks and pick swaps. It's that if we know anything about Pat Riley, he's willing to play fast and loose with distant, totally unprotected first rounders,

right? Like they'll, they'll throw that in a trade for Goran Dragic because they think that he's going to be that meaningful to them. If they think they have a chance to get a Donovan Mitchell, who would be just a fantastic fit with what they have and they could cover for him defensively. So,

well, I wouldn't be shocked to see a kitchen sink type offer in terms of future picks and considerations. I think they only owe one future first in terms of stuff you need to work around. But they could make that part of the deal really attractive because in terms of players, as you mentioned, it really is kind of like a Duncan Robinson and Tyler Hero

and then maybe some various role players, minimum guys here and there. But Miami doesn't have a lot to give up unless you're jettisoning Kyle Lowry already. A lot of their guys are pretty important and they're important on low salaries, which is why they need to keep them. Or they already have their own guys who are free agents. PJ Tucker could walk this summer and they may not have good means to replace him other than just giving him a competitive contract or trying to work one of these trades for a future pick of some kind. So they're going to have to make sure they can kind of mind their flank and keep the rest of their roster intact, which is

why I think the attractive part of a deal has to be hero and picks. That is the centerpiece. Well, and then with Utah, Conley, who looks like he's a little long in the tooth at this point, maybe that's a piece of it. Now Kyle Lowry's in it. Maybe Robinson is in that. And I still like Robinson. I know that salary is intimidating, but that guy delivered on a big stage. There's a chance he just had a bad year and he got in his head. And there was a couple moments in that Boston series when it felt like he might get going. But I just think the team kind of gravitated away from some of the stuff he was good at. I still believe in him. I would talk myself into him.

I was looking at him for the Celtics for the trade exception. If Miami just wanted to dump salary or try to figure out a way where they needed to reroute him somewhere and reroute him in some sort of trade that they were trying to figure out, I wouldn't be opposed to Robinson because I think that's what the Celtics need. I think they need a scorer off the bench. And he could be awesome on a team

like that. On a team that has so many stout defenders where he's the only guy you really need to cover for. I think Duncan Robinson is an okay defender. He's not a total disaster. I think he's okay. He's still big. He tries. He tries. If you're big and you try that's half the battle. He fouls

a lot, which is a problem. But let's be honest. like almost all these playoff rotations have a guy or two like this. The problem with Duncan Robinson is that he plays on the same team as Tyler Hero, who has a lot of these same problems.

And so if you're going to pick and choose, if you're Miami, you're going to pick the guy who can create because almost no one else on that team can create other than Jimmy Butler. Well, ironically,

both of those guys could be in the same trade if they're trying to get somebody big like a Bradley Beal. Or, you know. Let's say Bradley Beal says to Washington, I'm not going to do the extension. I actually want to go to Miami. Now they got to scramble. And if you're Washington, the guy's going to leave anyway. You can figure it out. So now you're talking to yourself and to Tyler Harrow and Duncan Robinson and another contract and some picks,

stuff like that. I'm with you. I think the Hero piece, whether they keep Hero and trade Robinson or whatever, I don't think they can bring both of those guys back as assets because we've kind of learned that the two-way stuff is just too tough with it. Let's move to Denver.

Yeah. So Denver's assets are a little different. They just traded for a second pick. They got Gordon at 20 million. They have Will Barton as an expiring at 14.3 and they have Monty Morris at 9.1 and 9.8.

There's already been stuff out there that they're looking around. They're a little more positioned for a big trade than I realized. They had the opportunity to get Drew Holiday a year and a half ago or whatever. And they basically, they could have put together a better and a half ago or whatever. And basically, they could

have put together a better version of the trade Milwaukee made, and they just didn't want to do it. And then they ended up, they got Aaron Gordon for a pretty cheap price when you look back at what they gave up, but they haven't really gone all in. And the problem for them is Jokic, who's a free agent after this year, Porter, Murray, that's it. You're at the salary cap already. So if you want to add one more big piece to that Gordon probably has to be in that what else do you see with them what are the moves for them well I think there's kind of a philosophical question you say you know they have

these pieces to go all in will they go all in like financially speaking is this a team that's prepared to do that because as we've seen in ways small and large you know from are we going to convert this two-way guy into a full-time player on our roster to are we going to let Tim Connolly,

our president of basketball operations, walk out the door for essentially financial reasons. And if they're not willing to pay, potentially to add salary, to pay big into the tax, to behave like a contending team, then I think a lot of the commentary and the lip service we've seen so far

about being stewards of Nikola Jokic's prime years, that's what that means. You have to be willing to pony up financially to make those kinds of things work. And that's where the future of guys like Monte Morris come into question. The future of guys like Will Barton come into question. Barton's a guy who's been...

He's meant a lot to that franchise and I think had a very specific and personal relationship with Tim Connolly, who is no longer running that team. So maybe all of a sudden he is available in a way that he wasn't previously. There's all these kinds of mid-level pieces for them that could be jumbled together into a deal

to spring something loose. And that begs the question of what you think exactly they need. And it doesn't seem like they have the yokage pressure, even though he's a free agent in the air, because there's been stuff out there that as soon as they can do it in July, five years, 260 million bucks.

I would say it's a bargain. Yeah. At his age. That'll work. His production. The Porter contract is ultimately what's going to sink or swim this team. However, they try to figure out these other pieces.

If he's not going to be able to stay on the floor, that's just a huge miss because I don't think Murray and Jokic and then just trying to cross your fingers on some of the other stuff, it's not going to be enough. I do feel like if I were them, I would be really aggressive.

I would be trying to, I'd use Gordon and I'd use whatever other contracts I had and future picks. Because wait, the next five years of picks, I have Jokic, especially if he's going to agree to extension. So I know I'm that none of those are going to come back to haunt me unless he got hurt. So can I go all in? Can I get a fourth guy for these that's better than Aaron Gordon? Because I don't know from what you saw of Aaron Gordon for a year and a half, do you feel like that's your answer

as the number four guy in a championship team? Because that's what makes it so tough is like the initial signs were so great when Murray and Porter were healthy. And it's like, how much are you clinging to that 15 game sample size or however many games it turned out to be before this guy started dropping out of the lineup? Because when you relieve the pressure on him, are you clinging to that 15-game sample size or however many games it turned out to be before

this guy started dropping out of the lineup? Because when you relieve the pressure on him, I think he can be a really good player. But we've seen, especially in the playoffs, asking him to be a big-time creator against good teams. That's too much for what his skill set is. And that's why, whether it's him, whether it's cobbling together some of these other role players they have... I think Morris is a guy who is at the intersection of a lot of their questions. If you're bringing back a point guard in Jamal Murray who's missed so much time, and you have a young up-and-coming guard in Bones Highland who's going to be wanting more minutes and pushing for more minutes, does that make Morris more essential or more expendable?

I honestly don't know. Yeah. And I mean, I just lived through it with this 24 Celtics playoff games that I'm going to need. I'm going to need like another month to unwind from the stress of it. But man, as it gets, that series keeps climbing and you go to the next round, the next round, every flaw you have, the teams just pounce on. Grant Williams was a disaster in the last two rounds. Like he was a disaster. Like his stats was rebounding, wasn't scoring, wasn't shooting. Part of the reason was teams were just going,

you're just not getting corner threes anymore. You're never going to see one again. What else do you got? And Grant Williams is like, I don't really have anything else. I'm a six foot four power forward. You're going to take away my corner threes? Fuck. And I think with Gordon, that's what I I think like if you're going to put together

four rounds at some point teams are just going to go hey please knock yourself out we're giving you that shot every time he just hasn't proven he can make it so before we go more likely to make a big deal Miami or Denver in your opinion Miami I mean I think Miami is

probably more likely to make a big deal on a year by year basis than almost any team in the league. They're always in these conversations for one reason or another. Riley's like, I'm 78. I don't got a lot of time left. Let's go. All right, Rob Mahoney. Thanks, as always.

We will see you on TheRinger.com and on The Ringer NBA Show. It's a new show tomorrow. Good to see you. Thanks, Bill. When you ride transit, please be safe. Yeah, be safe. Because what you do, others will do too. Others will do it too.

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Because safety is learned. It's learned. Okay, give it up. Give what up? Really? Really, really. This message is brought to you by Metrolinks. All right, Syrit Sohi is here from theringer.com. We're going to talk about the Golden State window, which has been a topic at least a little bit after the finals. We talked about a little on our podcast about where this goes for them. How can they extend this? How can they get Steph a fifth title? How can they have another little mini era? What do you think? As you look at their team and the construction of all of it, what do you expect from them? Because it feels like they value the continuity so much. It's hard to tinker with that. But at the same time, this is a franchise that is always really aggressive

at trying to get better. So what do you see? I can see pretty much everything working out for them, right? Like you have Steph and Pool, that's pretty much working out. Somehow, by some measure, he's become like Steph when he needs to be. Right. That has like player development. I think, I think implications for the future, like just let a guy shoot and maybe he can actually do that. But, and you kind of go down the line.

And I think what we wanted to talk about essentially was Draymond, right? And they've been able to replace both Draymond and Iguodala defensively they've been able to replace the physicality like Looney at times in the playoffs was better than him on on the offensive glass and Wiggins Payton coming in for like the more of the isolation defense stuff but the one thing that kind of sticks out to me is like they don't really have anything to anybody to do the one thing that Draymond does better than everybody else was like combine that with his transition ability better than everybody else was like combine

that with his transition ability, with the playmaking, with like just being one of the smartest players in basketball. He's kind of like the chain that makes it, makes it all go because he can do that unique combination of things. Yeah. And looking at, you know,

I think looking at game six, especially, but that last, the last half of the Celtics series, that second quarter in game six, that was Draymond field. That's like two offensive rebound tips by him. And, you know, transition, outlet, go, go, go. Very few players in the NBA can do that.

And that's the one thing where I wonder, I'm like, okay, obviously their cap situation is, they can't really add much. And that's the one thing I look at. And I'm like, I don't know if you can replace this internally. I agree with you. their cap situations. They can't really add much. And that's the one thing I look at. I'm like, I don't know if you can replace this internally. I agree with you. I was thinking halfway through that series that win or lose, that might be the move. I'd be wondering if

they would have the balls to actually trade Draymond and mess up the core. But the fact that he turned it on like he did in 5 and 6, it made me so mad. All of us in the arena were like, really? He's going to start hitting threes and grabbing rebounds and pushing. He looked like Draymond from 2016 again.

Were you immediately afraid in the first quarter when he hit that banker coming off of a roll? He never hits that right angle. It's a really high skill shot. It just went in and I was like, oh no, the focus is here today. Well, and then the fact that he immediately was like, I'm shooting this, which he just didn't seem

really comfortable with even the decision to shoot. So yeah, I think whatever Kerr did in game four, it worked. It lit a fire under him. He was awesome. So yeah, he's under contract for one more year, then he's got a player option for the next one. And I think they stick with this group. Then the big things will be Peyton and Porter. How can they bring those guys back?

And then you figure if we're like a super contender, we're going to get one semi-old person chasing a ring that is going to pop over just for the, maybe take a discount for one year to come play with us. And that'll be, I don't think they'll bring Porter back, but in that Porter spot, maybe that's like the 33 year old guy who's never made it or the shooter or

whatever, whatever they go. That would be my guess. Possibly. Right. He just opted out. Right. PJ Tucker would be a good one,

but he, what did he make? make like seven seven million plus that last year yeah I think he was I think he was around 7.5 I guess you could I mean you probably got to spend that money on Peyton right to to bring him back I think Peyton has to come back that was that I thought as soon as they unleashed him in the series because I think what

did he miss game one? They lost. Comes in game two and from, it just felt like every time he was out there, their team was complete. And defensively, I thought he, you know, he, just the worst possible scenario for the Celtics and the fact that nobody on the team can dribble. Yeah.

It was weird though because there was a moment where we, you know, he came back in game two and then game three, he kind of had low minutes and it felt like Tatum had kind of figured him out and then I mean you know Tatum just seems like ran out of gas and maybe that's what happened but it felt like wait these guys are kind of bigger and stronger and this might be a problem for the Warriors but then you're right like he he was awesome for them but he's actually the one guy where I look at and i think maybe he's the guy that can internally replace draymond he's the closest guy i think just because of he has a

playmaking history he used to be a guard but even that still feels like a bit of a long shot you know it's just like extra bit of iq and decision making that you have to have he's probably the closest though yeah it's i think they figured out from their Kelly Oubre experience, everybody that we put with Steph has to have a real understanding for

ball movement and what Steph does. And if they can't fit in that, they're out. Yeah. And the defensive IQ too. I'm so glad you brought him up because he's kind of like

the perfect example for why the Warriors have to be so specific in free agency regardless of who they get, right? Like, whether it's, you know, you're going to go for a superstar

or, you know, just try to add somebody as a 15th man. Like, they really have to understand everything. Because you even see it with the guys we've been successful with, right? Like, you watch Wiggins on the court and, you know, he's not on the court with, like, Iguodala or Payton or Draymond. And all of a sudden, like there's a couple of backdoor cuts that are being left on the floor. And there's sometimes that Curry's wide open.

You're like, get it to him, get it to him. But he's not going to see that. He can't see the other side of the floor when he's on one side. Yeah, there's that weird osmosis thing that happens to some of that stuff too, which I've always been fascinated about with basketball, where if you play with,

if you play long enough with people with the high IQ, you end up emulating some of the stuff they're doing just by osmosis. Especially passing and ball movement are the two things that just seem to transfer. Defense is effort more than anything. And I think most people, unless they're just completely incompetent, if everybody else is trying way harder than them, they're going to raise their thing. But the passing the ball movement, it's really funny. You end up on the wrong team where everybody stands around. You end up standing around. And you end up moving. Everyone's moving. You feel like an idiot if you're not moving. And Wiggins is the perfect litmus test for this because Wiggins is Minnesota versus the guy we saw in the finals are like two different people.

Yeah. I wonder if it's just a matter of watching the same film over and over again, seeing like, oh, that guy made that pass. Like, I can probably make that pass too. Like, if I was watching Draymond over and over again, this is something that they all kind of do, right? Like, Looney figured out how to master the dribble handoff

basically and like re-screen. And then you saw Peyton like give Curry a reposition uh screen after you know I think Curry drove and drove and kicked and then Peyton could have taken a three and then he didn't because um you know Curry was relocating and that's something that you know he learned with Draymond so yeah I wonder if like yeah that's that's really interesting like the basketball IQ by osmosis thing the Warriors are are kind of like, if it exists, the Warriors are kind of the best example for it. It's insane how much this team

on the, you know, even their bench can look like pretty much just a little bit of a worse version of their starters at their best. Right. The first time I thought about this was the 80s because I thought McHale and Worthy on the Celtics and Lakers are two

people that if they had just gone to normal teams, I don't think those guys would have been passers at all, especially McHale and Worthy on the Celtics and Lakers are two people that if they had just gone to normal teams, I don't think those guys would have been passers at all, especially McHale, because McHale was like a black hole. But if you're just with it every day, you start seeing the angles the same way, and you realize like, oh, if I'm going this way, then this will be open. And it just kind of opens up to you.

Watching in person the way they moved for Curry, I've just never seen anything like it. It's like they had almost a form of a cheat code. He would give up the ball, and they would immediately know the spot he was going to go to three seconds later, and they would just wait for it. That one pass, and Curry hit that three when he touched his finger for the ring in the third quarter.

Did you see that pass? Well, not for us. We were pretty miserable. Draymond threw a pass and it was like I don't even know how to describe it. He was dribbling up and Curry was behind him and he just threw a bounce pass to this open area and Curry

came up and caught the bounce pass and shot it. But that's like, to me, that's nine years together. And that's so going back to what they're going to do this off season. Every piece has to just fit into that because that's their biggest advantage. Now the league's going to be better next year. The West is going to be better.

In a lot of ways, this was just a, became a super wonky year with all the injuries and teams that were either a year behind where they should be or a year past where they should be. Next year's going to be much harder. Yeah. Maybe Wiggins' development is a little bit instructive as well. Who is the Draymond toiling away on a small market team

or on a bad culture team that you could turn into the next great playmaker. Because that's a skill that I think that unless you're on a good team, it doesn't really get unlocked. Right. That's a tough one. I think you think of like Draymond in 2013

where he was basically we considered him the same way you would consider like Grant Williams now. He's just like, oh, he might be able to hit a three and he's a good defensive player, but he's undersized and that's it to the guy he became

and then the guy that he was those last two games. I don't know if those guys are out there. I think teams have felt like, I think people felt like Aaron Gordon had another level on him, right? And then it turns out he kind of is who he is. So I don't know.

Yeah. Grant's a great example of that too, because he has some of the ingredients to be kind of like a replacement or like the next Draymond type. But there's also just like, I think he's just a little, he's a little small. Well, he's also not, he's, I mean, he's just just really the last two rounds were really bad for him if you go look at his set the last two rounds first of all he never had more than six rebounds i was going through this yesterday with a friend of mine because we were trying to decide would we trade grant williams okay because he's one more year at a contract pretty cheap they have this trade exception they could actually trade him and get somebody back. So we were trying to figure out,

would you trade Grant Williams for Kevin Herter? Who would say no on that trade? And that, yeah, they probably would, right? But you could argue, well, they get, if they're doing a series of moves,

Grant could replace John Collins. You do a three for one, Bogdanovich gets the Herter minutes. Like there's some path for it. But, but the thing with Grant. It does open them up to make a big deal for Collins yeah the thing with Grant is once teams

took the corner threes away from him that was it like he had no plan B I think he had seven threes in game seven against Milwaukee and then I think he had ten in the next two rounds total and was just by the end of the Warriors series a complete zero. Now, he might have hit the wall.

They still need him for a Giannis series. He did a great job against Sarant. There's Eastern matchups they need him against, but I think what we thought of him coming out of the Bucs series versus what I think of him now is definitely lower. How much do you think is development though? Two, three years

from now, could he end up being that guy guy i don't think he has the passing yeah that's probably fair and also that's the hard that's the trickiest part about all of this yeah it comes down to that yeah definitely he i mean he could probably be a better three-point shooter i don't think the size thing is a real issue like the Warriors were just jumping over him in that series. It was pretty rough. What do you think about PJ Washington? For the dubs? Yeah. Let's say, now Looney's come up as a guy that the Hornets are interested in.

So let's say you try to bring him back as a sign and trade. So you're trying to keep PJ Washington at like that 5 million bucks? Yeah, I think he's still got another year on his deal. Yeah. The problem for giving up Looney is he was pretty durable on a couple of those runs. He played every single game this season.

If I'm the dubs, I just like the fact that I know I get 20 minutes a game out of this guy who knows how to play with all my dudes. Yeah. I just think with their know, with their payroll, I guess that's going to be the question for the Warriors, right? Like, are they going to go like $500 million into revenue? They're going to be at $400 next year.

I don't think they care. Easy. Yeah. I mean, it seems like they don't. And I mean, they make more money than any team in the league. And Joe Lacob is Joe Lacob. So maybe they won't care. But if they do, then I look at...

Looney's kind of the guy that as much as I love what he brought in the playoffs, there are moments that without him, I don't think they would have survived. Does Wiseman just replace him next year? Do you hope that that's the answer? That would be my answer. At that point, what's the point of Wiseman?

If you're paying Wiseman almost $10 million a year, but then you also have to pay Looney to give you all the 20-25 minutes a game Wiseman was supposed to give you, then what's the point of Wiseman. If you're paying Wiseman almost $10 million a year, but then you also have to pay Looney to give you all the 20-25 minutes a game Wiseman was supposed to give you, then what's the point of Wiseman? We have to go. It was good to see you, Sarah. Good to see you, too. Alright, J. Kyle Mannis here

from The Ringer. You've watched his videos. You've heard him on Upside High with Jonathan Charks. Now we're going to ask you your favorite wings. Do you have tears for these wings? How deep are the tears? Walk us through it. Give us the wing tears.

Tears, classifications more. We have some guys that are sort of conditional. I mean, like in terms of like the highest upside, I still think that's probably Shaden Sharp, but he's so caveat heavy. I don't know. Have you gotten to watch much Shaden? Do you have a take on him or an opinion on him?

He's going to get a GM fired or he's going to get a GM in extension. He's one of those guys. There's just not enough footage on him. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I made a long video about him and he was one of the more difficult guys to watch because it's just like oozing with talent, but

the competition was kind of weird and then he's just basically been a total disaster in his interviews. Anyway, he's the highest upside in terms of elite scoring capability. In terms of shooters, A.J. Griffin from Duke,

hard to deny his success rate this year. He was 43.2% on dribble pull-ups and 44.7% overall on threes on a team that didn't move the ball super well. Jalen Williams from Santa Clara, a guy that we've talked about about 40%. Malachi Branham, Wendell Moore. There are guys that, to answer your question in the

broad sense, there are guys that check individual boxes, but the overlaps for guys to have the total... You've used the car wash package. That's a term you've used. There's not a guy that has the total car wash package, but there are guys that

overlap and check some of the boxes more than others. For me, my three that I'm There's not a guy that has the total car wash package, but there are guys that kind of overlap and check some of the boxes more than others. For me, my three that I'm kind of higher on than other guys, I really like Dyson Daniels. I'm counting him as a wing because I don't expect him to be a full-time primary creator. Kid from Australia, great size, nearly 6'8", plays with a lot of great pace,

seems to know when to get off the ball well. Jalen Williams is another guy that, aside from the shooting, what I'm really looking for are guys that can either play high-end defense on one end or run some pick-and-roll and shoot it for me and make decisions on the other end. Jalen Williams would be there. And I also think I'm higher on Wendell

more than other people are. The guy from Duke, I think, is going to be able to put it together on the defensive end. And I don't know. I just expect him to show up for a team, a decent team sometime in the near future. Do you think we get five Duke guys in the first round?

Well, I mean, Williams, yes. Palo, yes. Wendell is kind of the question AJ yes um blanking on the fourth guy do we Kiel's uh Kiel's seems like a no I don't think that's gonna happen

it feels like four yeah yeah so out of the wings what's applied to what we watched in the finals so long term obviously a lot easier to say, oh yeah, that guy could have played. What guy could have stepped in that you've seen as a rookie next year and played 15 minutes in the finals

that we just watched for one of the two teams? Now it would have been harder for the Warriors because like Moody couldn't even get time for them. But the Celtics were a team that really needed a backup wing. One of the reasons they lost the series was in game five, they couldn't take Jalen and Tatum out. They had to play the whole second half

because they were so afraid to put anyone else in there for them. And then those guys wear out and give all these ramifications. How many wings in this draft as a rookie could have played in that game? Well, for the Celtics, I guess it's a question of can you

defend to their level? The guys that are the most ready to defend at a high level, in my opinion. I was thinking about this a lot today. I mean, the term wing has gotten kind of foggy in the past few years, considering we try to go. Yeah. Like, is Johnny a wing? What is he? Is he 6'4, is Johnny a wing? What is he? Johnny Davis? Is he a shooter?

What is he? Like, does he qualify as a wing? Does Dang qualify as a wing? Yeah, I would kind of say the question is do you want to include Tari and Sohan? That's the question

because defensively those guys can slide up or down better than anybody in the class. I know Charks is a huge Tari Eason fan. He has the most dominant body type skills. He fits the Celtics kind of mold. He could come in next year.

For people who don't know much about Tari Eason, incredible size, incredible athlete. He's 6'8". He has 11-inch hands. He's just one of those alien athletes. And then if you want to include Sohan, he's another... If you're playing a 4-out, 5-out style, you could count him.

But physically, defensively, yeah, I'd say Johnny is up there. Actually, I... We think Johnny could play next year and get real minutes and play for a decent team next year. That could happen. Another underrated guy is Daylon Terry from Arizona. It was

a really, really disruptive player. He had a high steal percentage. Shot about 36% from three. He's a guy that some good team might steal next year. I can see that. How about Matherin? Matherin's a tricky one for me because it's kind of like wings. The pattern

that I've really noticed within the playoffs is you need to be either like a plus plus decision maker like you're really good shooting the ball you're really good if the closeout something i noticed was the teams in the playoffs or the teams in the nba this past year that they were what that were the most productive when a player attacked a closeout and then made a pass, eight of the top 10 teams were legit playoff teams. So that told me,

if you were a team that doesn't have... You're shaking your head like the Celtics. Would you say that that was a thing that plagued the Celtics? It really seems like. I was just getting flashbacks. Yeah, keep going. Sorry. My body, I flinched.

No, I mean, Mathurin is a guy who can shoot the ball. I question the defensive upside and the playmaking. Those are things that I kind of like more than others. I lean philosophically in that direction. Yeah, I mean... Well, he's been a really successful workout interview guy. People love him. I mean, yeah, I know. People really love

his attitude. And that's something that I think people underrate. We look at what guys are, and when we're thinking about where they need to be, the NBA is just such a mentally demanding game today, aside from the physical stuff.

The guys that are in the series, if you look at the Celtics, those are all really bright, like curious guys. Like it's such a complex game that moves fast. I like Mathurin on that front. Yeah. Like, I mean, I think that he fits that mold,

like somebody that's going to work and get better. Yeah. I was watching one of the finals games. I was there super early. I was watching the Celtics shoot. It was like the, kind of the guys who don't play that much were out there before like the, the best guys guys who don't play that much were out there before like the,

the best guys come out. And Nismith was out there and he was just shooting threes and they, most of them weren't going in. And you could see just the look on his face and his demeanor. He was just like broken.

Like he had just lost his confidence. I still believe in him, but it's so tough with the, with these wings and these situations where in certain cases, like the Memphis guys, those guys, for whatever reason, they they've been able to figure out how to have those guys thrive. Even if their minutes are getting yanked around a little bit, they just, they can get the best out of those guys.

Then you look at other situations. So like Neesmith, who was really good down the stretch a year ago, and then was unplayable this year. When they really needed them the most, they couldn't put them in the game. And so part of it to me is situation and then somebody who's a good shooter in college for sometimes it just doesn't translate the same way, right? That extra two and a half feet can be like 20 feet for some of these guys. Yeah. For some guys, they have to recalibrate how fast they shoot. That's an underrated thing about the NBA game. That's something you really pick up on in person that people on TV,

I don't think necessarily notice as much. When you're at eye level with these guys, like say you can be an incredible shooter, but if you don't shoot fast enough and you don't shoot high enough, even they're like great shooters that come into the NBA and have to make legit adjustments to their mechanics.

Neesmith, I think, is just kind of, you get into like a possession in the NBA and have to make legit adjustments to their mechanics. Neesmith, I think, is just kind of... You get into a possession in the playoffs. If your first shot's not there, you need to be able to make a dribble and make a pass. And there might be two, three, four pass sequences that go deep into the clock. And that takes a player with high IQ

and that can just filter some guys out. And I think Neesmith has fallen prey to that, honestly. I thought Moody was impressive in the little time that they threw him out there. It seems like he was somebody that seemed to be able to adjust to the speed of stuff. So if you had to bet

big picture for this draft, who do you have for 1-2-3 right now? The only two that I've wobbled on is the Paolo-Chet order over the course of this since like January.

I'm Chet 1. I've actually kind of dug in deeper on I'm Chet 1 even more firmly than I was before. Paolo 2, Jabari 3. Wow. And in the actual draft,

it could go the complete opposite way. It could be Jabari 1, it could go the complete opposite way. Mm-hmm. It could be Jabari one, Chet two, Powell three. Do you have Ivy? Some people are saying, like, Sam Vecini on The Athletic, he did his whole guide today, and he was saying he felt like there were four potential real stars in this draft, and Ivy was one of them.

Do you think he has that potential that we'll look back at this as a four-person draft or no? It's very possible. I could see him passing. The thing about Ivy is he's really, obviously an elite athlete. He has good size. He's smart.

When he turns the corner on people, he can get so low. He has a kind of a Jalen Green-ish kind of an ability to get really, really low and turn the corner on people, but he's stronger. Then he can power through contact. The thing is, are you betting? How willing are you to bet on him as a three-level score? Because that's what it's going to take for him to be a star and to dictate pace. Is he going to be the focal point of an offense? That's who he's going to have to become.

I think he's going to need to play next to sort of like a full-time playmaking, deferring type player. I'm not sure about centering a whole offense around him for that reason. But I mean, he's an incredible player, man. If put in the situation where his strengths are unable to pop. Is he incredible enough that somebody in the 8-12 range should be just putting together a bunch of assets to try to trade up to four? Like he could be a franchise star for you?

Was it the Pelicans that there was some chatter about them trying to maybe move up and take him? They certainly have enough picks. Yeah, I mean, I could see that. That kind of speaks to what we're talking about here. If you're a team that kind of has pieces in place that make sense and you have some stuff to move around and make a move, I think that there's a world where he could be really, really put in a good situation like that. If you have an existing kind of offensive thing that sort of works

and he could be your extra downhill, he's going to be a monster in transition. He's going to be like a highlight machine. I mean, he's going to be like a highlight machine with space. Purdue had a weird offense. You see this with like draft picks every year.

They just had two bigs that they played a lot. They had Zach Eady as just a massive, massive human being. I don't know if you've gotten to see him. With more space,

he's going to really pop in the NBA, in my opinion. All right. So after the top four, who's your pick to be the biggest star after the top four? If you had to bet on one person, who would you bet on? Let's see. After that, in terms of being an offensive primary,

I don't know if I have any guys that... This draft has a glut of players that are kind of... No one is really popping. Like I said, Shaden has that type of talent. Yeah. I could see Durin becoming... He's young. I could see Durin becoming a really valuable defensive piece

because he's... Sharks and I were talking about on Upside High that's going to come out tomorrow, I believe. We were talking about three level defensive guys. People that can get out there like a Time Lord type player who can guard all sorts of positions really strong lob threat i could see him becoming like a defensive superstar like that i think i think ty ty washington's value has been pushed down a little bit i i know i'm sure i know you're grinning but it's like

the like the cow phenomenon the thing that I've like been laughing about, I'm just like, we do this every year. We really get to do it again. This kid who is like a really fluid score and can pass the ball. He's kind of like, if you think about it, like guys playing in the finals,

like Jordan pool played in the finals, he was in a good defense that could protect him. And in a scheme that could like protect him. But Ty Ty is a guy that I think has a lot of offensive talent too. He's been underrated. We've learned to not underestimate the Kentucky guys who looked slightly lost in

Cal offenses from time to time. There's certainly been a few of them. Kyle, we'll listen to you on Upside High tomorrow and I'm sure we'll be hearing from you on Thursday night. Thanks for coming on, as always. My pleasure.

All right, we promised 10 burning questions heading into Thursday's draft. We have a special bonus question and a special bonus guest. Van Lathan is here, the world's preeminent WTF NBA expert that I know. The Kyrie Irving situation is just getting weirder and weirder. He's putting out teams that he might want to play for.

It's being reported. The Knicks, the Clippers, the Lakers. And the question remains, as always, would you want to be in business with this guy? So I come to you. Kyrie, how does this go? Because we're now, this is pretty much five years of weirdness with him dating back to the trade request in 2017.

Would you want to be in business with this guy? Depends on the business. If the business is playing basketball, then probably not. So, and I'll be honest with you. I have a lot of respect for Kyrie Irving. I have a lot of respect for kairi i have a lot of i'm a weird person i'm off kilter bill you know this i am an off kilter person um i sometimes need the good old mental health break um i sometimes get wrapped up into things that happen to in the news and have trouble focusing.

Uh, I understand that. I understand the human aspect of the human element of some of the things that Kyrie Irving has, has said that he has been going through and how they can affect you. Uh, so if you're talking to me right now and you're asking, Hey, Van,

would you want Kyrie Irving as an advocate for something that you're doing? Would you want Kyrie Irving as a, for something that you're doing would you want Kyrie Irving as uh as a partner on social issues or anything like that the absolute the answer is absolutely yes I think that I would want that he seems to be very outspoken he seems to be very dedicated to learning and dedicated to uh a dedicated to making change in society the way that he thinks it should be changed, right? And that seems to be very sincere. If we're talking about basketball, then no.

And the only reason why is because you got to have people come to work. And we got to keep it all the way gangster with this. Like, the reality is that Kyrie Irving does not seem to be, from the basketball perspective, a net positive for your basketball franchise. And that's just the reality of the situation. The reality of the situation is I'm

not talking about whether or not Kyrie Irving is a net positive for society, because you could still litigate that if you want. There are a lot of people who agree with him for his stands last year. There are a lot of people who agree with him on a great many things but if we're talking about as a basketball owner dude paying upwards of 150 200 250 million dollars to somebody is that going to make you better and get you closer to an nba championship forget about the nba championship forget about that because that's the the highest level of the of uh of the sport that's the highest level of sports winning. That's the highest level of sports, winning the NBA championship. Forget about that. Is Kyrie Irving going to make your team a more attractive, watchable entity?

Probably not. I mean, the reality is, like, if you go over the track record, probably not. He's probably going to bring, from what we've seen on the court, a lot of distraction and exactly the type of talk and the type of discussion that a functioning organization doesn't want. So, I mean, as much as people, you know, as much as it, because I think the guy is a cool dude and an interesting guy. He's very interesting. But no, the answer is no. It was interesting to hear the Nets talk about him at the end of the season press conference after when Sean Marks was basically saying,

we want to find people going forward who will put the team above themselves. Yeah. And that's the issue, I think, with Kyrie is he carries himself more like he's a tennis player or a golfer like that his the way he

behaves him missing games, whatever's going on him having a weird press conference I've been making this point for 3-4 years every time when you're one of the best players on the team or the best player that stuff has ramifications every time you do something that's best players on the team or the best player, that stuff has ramifications. Every time you do something

that's a little off the beaten path. That's why everybody loves Steph. Steph's like just, he's like this boat that just goes straight ahead and you know what you're getting. And he just wants to be on a good team. He's not going to tell the front office what to do. He's the most kind of weirdly reliable star we have.

He's just the greatest shooter and that's who he is. And that calmness I think really helps with the team. And Kyrie is the opposite. Kyrie is, he's the boat in sleeping with the enemy. It's, it's all of a sudden it's like, Oh,

I didn't think it was going to rain today. Oh my God, I'm holding on for my life. I might, now I might get knocked overboard. And I just think teams see that and they're like, do we want to be in business with this?

Well, look, you're looking at like what seems to be, you're looking at what seems to be like clashing sort of perspectives, right? What people want, what fans want and what organizations want, they want players that have a just burning desire to be the best. Just a burning desire to be the

best. And not just a burning desire to be the best, but a burning desire to prove it. What you want essentially out of an athlete is an athlete that would hate to win by forfeit. You want somebody that wants to go out there and say to everyone, I'm the best and I can prove it every single time. And sometimes that irrationality, right? Like you talk about Kobe, the mama mentality, whatever, whatever is in front of me that even has a shred or an inkling that I am not the best basketball player on the court, I must destroy, right? The first thing you got to be is available to do that. You have to be there. There's a bunch of other things you have to do. I remember reading this article about Kobe. As soon as he would come off the court, he would start icing everything.

His whole body was about the next game. His entire body, say what you want about Kobe Bryant, his entire life was about the next second, the next minute on the basketball court. I'm going to ice everything. I'm going to go right into treatment and I'm going to come back, give it all for 48 minutes and then do it over and over and over again. And so my body physically says, Kobe, you can't anymore. Like you can't do it anymore, right? You don't have the Achilles anymore. You can't do it anymore.

And that's the baseline for greatness the baseline for reality for reliability is not putting the team above you putting the team even on equal like footing issue kairi the team is beneath him it seems like sometimes when he's like angry to be an employee of a team. Yeah, it's like not, I'm not even talking about, if you can't put the team above you, that's fine. There are a lot of players in the NBA who aren't willing to do that, right? Those guys typically don't win a lot, but a lot of guys are, I'm going to get out there, I'm going to spend a little bit,

get my money, get out. It seems like with Kyrie, the team is beneath him. They're paying him a lot of money, and he's annoyed that he's being asked to play basketball. My brother, that's your job. So as much as it means... Well, he's also annoyed by the

infrastructure that comes with being a basketball star too. Dealing with the press, dealing with people that make money off of talking about him, dealing with the fans who feel like they can yell at him at games because they paid for a ticket. All of that stuff he seems burned out about too, which I don't think is a good sign for his long-term viability as a star. So look, I am completely on board with everyone that says, hey, let Kyrie be Kyrie. But the reality is we live in a world and the world

that we live in, everybody has to deal with consequences of the decisions that they make. And one of the consequences for Kyrie Irving right now is no one thinks they can count on him. And that's fair. That's fair. That is a completely fair assessment. I don't see how you could look at what's going on the last couple of years and come to any other determination. It doesn't seem like you can count on him. It seems like as the wind blows, so will Kyrie Irving. So it's just nuts. And the people that are probably entertaining, even the possibility of going back into business with them, are people who are desperate.

I'm sure the Lakers would be happy to get into business with Kyrie Irving if they get rid of Westbrook and throw some picks and whatever, but they're also desperate. They don't really have any chess moves left. But if you're like, I don't know, Dallas, and I'd always

talked about the double sign and trade with Brunson for Kyrie, but then ultimately, if that doesn't work, I've now squandered a year two years whatever of Luca and now I'm kicking myself Dallas can't do it the only reason why if you're the Lakers it seems like obviously and everyone knows this anyone's paying attention the last time Kyrie was uh with LeBron James this seemed to be enough of a foundation and enough of a system and a big enough leader there to where he was like in some way a contributing basketball player he's under control i don't want to say it like that under he's no but he could he could float in and out of situations he could

take a game off and it was okay and then he could come back in and put up 45 on whoever and it's like oh there's kairi and go nuts right and hit one of the biggest shots in the NBA of the last decade, right? When he sunk that jumper against Golden State. So that might be a situation where people go, if LeBron's here, maybe Kyrie will be okay. A situation like Dallas, you can't do that. What you have are young, impressionable stars who actually need vets that are going to show them how to be professionals. And the last guy right now, as talented as he is, as amazing as he is,

the last player in the NBA, the last player in the NBA that you will want teaching a younger player how to be a pro right now is Kyrie. I'm not saying he doesn't do everything that he can to get his body ready. I'm not saying he doesn't work on his craft. He does, but you have to show up to work and care about people other than yourself. And he's just not doing that right now. So how did Zil play out? Where is he next year? I have no clue. I've thought about this so much, man. I think he's on Brooklyn. I think that's how this plays out. It's of stare at each other and he opts in for one year and that's how it goes.

Nobody's happy with it. I can think of one team more desperate than the Lakers that might move heaven and earth to get him. And that's the Knicks. And I could see the Knicks making a situation to where he's ended up. That's where he really wanted to be. He's from the area. I could see the Knicks making a situation to where he's ended up. That's where he really wanted to be.

He's from the area. I could see the Knicks really dipping their toe in the water. And wouldn't it be a very Knickish thing to do? It would be the Knicksiest Knicks thing they've ever done. I don't think they're going to do it, but it really would be. It would be. And their fans within, I can't blame them. They to do it, but it really would be. It would be, and their fans within, I can't blame them.

They haven't won a title since 73 and you talk yourself into stuff. Within 48 hours, I think they would talk to, I don't think their fans would revolt, especially if the price, as long as they didn't give away any of their assets.

Last question for you then. Yeah. If Kyrie Irving plays for Brooklyn next year, what's the amount of games he needs to play in the regular season for Brooklyn to be a real threat? He has to play the whole season. It can't be. He's not going to play 82 games.

He's never played 82 games. I'm saying like, so, so what? Like a 65 to 70 off and on. Something like that. And then healthy for the playoffs. a 65 to 70 off and on. Something like that. And then healthy for the playoffs. Yeah.

I think it has to be something like that. I think part of the problem with him is he was kind of getting rewarded for not playing. Like he had that Orlando game when he kicked their ass and there was a Kyrie. He might be the most talented player in the league. So he's getting like positive affirmation for the fact that he decided to show up once in a week and destroy one of the worst teams in the league in the Celtics series when push came to shove and he was awesome in the first game and as that series went along in the first game and his series went along was terrible it was a defensive liability and kind of shrank from the moment and you know

if he didn't he's a good example of like how one moment can completely change somebody's career. And in that case, it should have, he made the biggest shot in 2016 finals, but he's also been dining on that shot now for six years. And that's a fact. So, you know, in the 2017 playoffs, he was good too. But I would, I personally, my vote would be no thanks unless I'm just giving up a bunch of crap. You know, if I'm giving up like two role players and I'm just swapping salary to roll nice one, that's what I would do. All right,

Van Latham, I'm glad we talked it out. Good to see you. Listen to Van on Higher Learning and on the Ringerverse podcast as well. Good to see you as always. Peace. All right,

that's it for part two. Thanks to Chris and House and Rob and Kyle and Sirit and Van. Thanks to Kyle Creighton for producing. Thanks to Dylan Berkey and Steve Cerruti as well. I will see you on Thursday night. Not sure what the plan is yet. If there are some massive trades,

we could be going multi-part on Thursday. If not, we will definitely be hustling to get one up right after the lottery on Thursday night. I will see you next time.