The Bill Simmons Podcast - Part 2: A Mavs-Celts Breakdown, Philly’s Summer Plans, and a Lakers Competency Check-In With Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: June 17, 2024

In Part 2 of a two-part podcast, The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss whether the Mavs found something in Game 4 of the Finals, or if the Celtics just sucked. Plus how nervous is Bill heading into Game 5? Then, they chat about why the Lakers haven’t hired a coach yet, and play a game of "What Would You Do?" if they were running the Sixers and Bulls. Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producers: Kyle Crichton and Steve Ceruti Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, part two of the Sunday NBA extravaganza with Brasilo is next. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. You know me, I can't go a day without sports. I really can't. And now Monday nights are all about hockey. That's right. There's a new exclusive home for streaming Monday night NHL hockey, and it's on Prime. All season long, watch prime Monday night hockey deliver unreal

plays. The biggest goals can't miss moments. Matthews, McDavid, Crosby, the NHL is best. They're all on prime prime Monday night hockey. It's on Monday. It's on prime. This episode is brought to you by my old friend Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this, it's game day, all the gangs here, you're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're standing at the grill and the smell of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that. Or when you want a light beer that tastes like beer, that's delicious. You don't want to load up on those heavier beers and then you only have two

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We are doing it on the Ringerverse podcast, but also on the Ringerverse feed, which you can find on YouTube because we launched that channel this week. Also, Rassel and I were taping the podcast. I taped the US Open, but it was incredible. And we did not talk about it

on this podcast, but you can hear on the Fairway Rolling podcast with Joe House and Nathan Hubbard. They broke down everything that happened today. So if you want golf, go to those guys. It's the best golf podcast going on this podcast. We're going to talk about the NBA finals. We're going to talk, what would you do with Philly and with

Chicago? And we're gonna talk about the next Lakers coach and some other goofy stuff. Anyway, part two next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, I'm taping part two here with Rusillo. It's a little before six o'clock East Coast time. We did not talk about the finals really in part one somehow, Rusillo. We're going to talk about the finals. We're going to do a little what would you do with two teams we picked and then a couple other quick things to throw you and then we're out. Let's talk about the finals.

Did Dallas find something in game four or did Boston just suck or both? I think they found human nature and Boston was terrible. But Milwaukee's others, I pointed out on my pod on Thursday, scores three, four, and five combined were scoring 28, I think,.7 points per game in games one, two, and three.

So the third leading scorer, fourth leading scorer, fifth leading scorer for Dallas. So that was combined almost 20 points less than the third, fourth, and fifth option for Boston. They did a better job probably. I think the lively thing is they've kind of given up on Gafford. And I was just impressed with Dallas in the night where they showed a lot of pride for a newer team,

but I just don't know that you can ever get past knowing deep down you're going to have multiple more chances to close out a series, and the other team doesn't have that luxury, and I think that's what happens a lot. Yeah, because I had heard from some people who were at the Dallas practice the day before, and they were like, zombies, dead men walking. And I was like, oh, because there's also ways that could go to where it's the end of a series and the team's like, yeah, fuck this. But it's really hard to do that in the finals. And it's really hard to give up on winning a title. You know, you go into that one game in time mode. But I will say, so I'm going to give you all my best Game 4 Boston excuses.

Okay, I love it. Let me get a pen. Yeah, get a pen. Number one, you mentioned, already got the game they needed. They came there to do a job to win one of the two. They just happened to win Game 3, so there's one. Number two, really good Dallas adjustments. And I think they stumbled into something in the second half that they then went deep on in game two, which was the Derek

Lively piece of it. There's an alarming Derek Lively Al Horford stat I'm going to give you. Derek Lively, second half game three, 17 minutes, six points, 10 rebounds. Derek Lavely, first half, game four, 15 minutes, six points, 10 rebounds. Out of those 20 rebounds, 10 were offensive. So that's just two halves. You combine those together, he was 12 and 20 with 10 offensive rebounds. Here's Horford's stats. Game three, second half, 19 minutes, zero points, four rebounds. Game four, first half, 19 minutes, zero points, four rebounds.

Game four, first half, 15 minutes, zero points, three rebounds. Now, there's two pieces to that. One is that I think Lively is actually a pretty special player. I've watched him in person now five, six times. This is like a really unusually good rookie that has completely vindicated their decision

to throw away a season when they had Luka Doncic on their team. Throw away an attempt, a chance to get into the play-in and likely get smoked. I just think, I just think it needs to be framed. We are talking about it last year though. Yeah.

But the whole reason they punted is because even if they got in, they knew they were like, what's the point of this? I get it. But they also have one of the best three guys in the league. And I just, I never liked punting on, I have one of the best three guys in the league and I just I never like punting on I have one of the best three guys in the league but they did it it worked out um live was really good and I think

first two games he was running around like a chicken with his head cut off and I think the finals were too big for him and he looked terrible and he was bowling into people and he was just all over the place and in in game three, something flipped. He settled down. The big picture thing, and this is excuse number two, is the no Porzingis thing you really felt in the fourth quarter of game three and then game four

because the Celts didn't have enough size. They were getting killed on the offensive glass, which really has not happened a lot with this team, with or without Porzingis. And it was alarming, right? So you could say dead legs Horford in game four. That's another

excuse, right? He's 38 years old. They played Wednesday night. Really gritty, tough game. Then they have to play two nights later. And Drew and Jalen were awful. That's the worst Drew Holiday game I've ever seen in person. So throw that away. They won 10 straight. They were due for a stinker. Right? You win 10 in a

row in the playoffs. That's incredible. They were due for a stinker. Right? You win 10 in a row in the playoffs. That's incredible. They were due. And then the last piece, the human nature thing you talked about. You weren't expecting to win game three, even though you thought you could and you wanted to. And I really thought the Celts were going to win. Now it's game four.

Well, what happens if we win? Oh, party. Where's that going to be? Everybody kind of moves into, holy shit, what if we win? What's Friday night going to look like? And I don't care whether you're working for the team, you're coaching for it, you're playing for it. It's this weird thing that comes in where it's like, I don't want to jinx anything that's happening here, but what happens on Friday night if we win? And you start, and now after you're the players, you're like, should we go?

Should we be in Dallas? Should we go somewhere else? The whole Celtics organization's like, well, where's the party going to be? We have to have somewhere for women. We got to run out someplace. And your mind just drifts a little bit, whereas you're Dallas and you're Luca,

and you just got punched in the face by everybody in the national media for two days. And they're in Rocky IV log cabin mode. And the Celtics are just a little bit drifting toward. And then I think you saw what happened. So out of those excuses, what's your favorite? The last one.

You could tell those first quarter they were out rebounded. They were minus 10 in the first quarter rebound. Okay. And the Horford point is an awesome point because I think it's real and it shows up. And he's asked to do so much, even without presenting this in the regular season, but to know how stretched out he is and all the different stuff that he's trying to do.

And then when Tillman comes in, it's like this first guy in the entire real rotation now for Dallas where it's like, oh my God, someone we can ignore. And I think Al is probably in that category a little bit in game four by design. It's like, maybe he's the guy we sag off of. Remember how well Al shot it? They closed on him really good, though.

What's that? They were closing on him really good even when they were leaving. I thought Dallas, their defense, I just thought they'd played Boston enough times that it was like, oh, the ball's swinging this way. There's Al.

Just start charging at him now. He's got that weird little three. It takes him a second. He's got that hitch. And they were kind of on him even when it felt like he was open a couple times. But it was not a great Al Horford game. I also think if you're watching film

of certain things that were going wrong in game three before the big comeback, which again, it's so weird it's just the celtics this season like that's the perfect and people thought i was kind of like ripping them after game three in the open and it was just like no i'm just pointing out like why like the rest of the country if they haven't been watching and you're watching the nba finals you get to see why this dominant statistical team is always met with this confusion and worry like i don't know and then like the clutch stat i saw it there was a ringer piece that i was reading where it was kind of like oh for all of you people that have this concern about the celtics clutch stuff it's like

okay but can you call yourself clutch when your net rating is as good as theirs is but they blew a 20 point lead and scored two points over eight fucking minutes in game three of the nba finals so now like they get credit for being clutch because they won the clutch game when Luka fouls out at 412. So when I think about how bad certain things were, whether it was Luka's defense on the perimeter in game two, the Jalen dunk that he had where Luka didn't do anything in game three. Yeah. Where I remember watching that one the next day and saw that clip. I was like, God damn Luca,

like you didn't even, you didn't even pretend to move on this one or that secondary cut off the Tatum drive where a lot of that is just watching the ball and watching the guy and losing, losing track of the guy that you're assigned to just running past you and drew making some of those plays. If you're good enough to be in the NBA and you're sitting in a film session watching some of that stuff and you're like, you screwed this up. You like think how mad you would be. And you pointed out the info that you were getting

like, Oh, zombies. And then they come out and play the best game ever and smoke the Celtics, hold them to their lowest point total for a half of any half all season long. And it kind of reminded me a bit of the Phoenix thing in that we probably assume a little too much about how willing guys are to mail it in. The 3-2-1 Cancun jokes all the time. Because like Phoenix is a perfect spot. Like that profile of that team going, all right, we're down 3-1. Like maybe this game four is going to get really ugly. And they were actually competitive in that game. So I expect teams to compete.

Unless there's a massive gap between the two teams, Dallas, this Boston thing, is a bad matchup for Dallas. That will likely show itself again here at some point. But I don't feel like... I'm just so impressed with who Dallas has been throughout the playoffs to beat OKC, to beat Minnesota, that I would expect something like this, Bill. I would expect some evidence of pride and a performance that... I didn't think they were going to beat anybody like that, but the game just got so ugly and gets away from... I'm not

sure what the stats of that game even mean. Horford had an interesting quote after the game when they asked him about what adjustments it was either what adjustments do you have to make or whatever and he's like well we didn't make any adjustments so far because we were winning. Dallas made adjustments and I thought the two key adjustments

for Dallas one was Exum I don't understand why he didn't play him in game three. And Kidd was just throwing. He played 11 guys in the first half. He was throwing shit against the wall. But even in game three, Exum... That's unbelievable.

11 guys in one half of finals. In the finals. In your must-win game of the year. And you don't have 10 guys you can pick from. But Exum came in for three minutes. He can handle the ball a little bit, which I think really helps them because the team's so Luka Kyrie dependent.

He's really the only other guy on the team that can bring the ball up, maybe beat somebody off a dribble and drive and kick or anything. And then Kidd just bailed on him and played Tim Hardaway, who was absolutely atrocious in game three. Then he had a big garbage time in game four.

But I think they realized, oh shit, we should play Exum. He's better defensively. He can at least big garbage time in game four. But I think they realized like, oh shit, we should play Axum. He's better defensively. He can at least handle the ball a little bit. Any shot he makes is a bonus. Yeah, he can move, he can go. And then the other thing was Lively, which is clearly if the Celtics aren't going to have Porzingis, Lively's athleticism, his fire, his ability to crash the boards are real problems for this Boston team. So yeah, they beat him in one game, but I was talking to my dad. I had brunch with my dad today

and we were talking about game three and it's like, all right, what if Luka doesn't foul out of that game? Do we win? Luka fouled out with four minutes left and Dallas still almost win the game right and it felt like Boston had this first two and a half

three quarters of oh you think we don't have KP so we're going to roll over tonight no it's actually the opposite we're going to do this and we're fired up Tatum was great in the first half Jalen was unbelievable in the second half and then they kind of held on down the stretch but it's a 3-1 series that feels a tiny bit closer than that to me. And with that said,

I wouldn't be surprised if Boston beat them by 35 in game five. But we don't see Boston, I don't think, that version of them in game four if they blow the lead in game three. I just think all games, like chemistry, like all of it's connected. And so you can't, the dallas frustration for me would have been peak like game two going okay these three things happened they had their stale offensive moment late they didn't make threes they were six of thirty at one point they were up nine points and um i don't think many i maybe it was the vocal people people seemed i was surprised how many people were actually really positive

about Tatum's game in game two. Maybe you and I were harsher because of stuff we were seeing live because I even went back and watched the fourth quarter. I was like, God, I can't believe how many people just felt like his playmaking was so great. No, but I think people are defensive of him now in a way that this has now morphed into a different conversation. So you're either I am pro Tatum and think he's incredible,

or I am a Tatum basher and there's no nuance anymore. And I thought what we did a week ago had nuance. We were just pointing out what we saw. He did some really good things. He also didn't look confident in a lot of ways offensively with the ball. And that's what both of us saw. We didn't like it. Yeah, that's the part that I think is like, oh no.

If you're the number one option, which he is, that's what both of us saw we didn't like it yeah that's the part that i think is like oh no like if you're the number one option which he is uh like that's that's not great like you're stuck you're stuck so whatever it doesn't who cares we already we already did all that stuff so the series probably should be two two but it feels like it would you say two and a half to one and a half is the right yeah for the series maybe that's the better way to do it i don't think boston should be tied in this series but it feels like a two and a half one and a half because one and a half is the right score for this series. Maybe that's the better way to do it. I don't think Boston should be tied in this series, but it feels like a two and a half, one and a half. Because Dallas didn't even have a fourth quarter lead in the first three games. So it's hard to say,

oh, this series should be tied. But it feels like they're getting better and Boston's getting worse, I guess, over the last five quarters, at least, is a valid concern. Yeah, that's a five-quarter sample. It's a convenient way of doing it but now we don't know what to make a porzingis because i don't believe anybody when

it comes to basketball injuries i never yeah so why was he suited up for game four do you think i assume they my baseline assumption and it's not even team specific anymore i just think everybody just fucks with everybody else now. Because I thought they should have suited him up in game three, even if he wasn't playing. Why not? What's the downside? So you're removing Jordan Walsh from the active roster to put like, who cares? Put him on there and put a uniform on him and make them think he might come out, which I think is what they're trying to do in game four. The other theory I heard was that Missoula felt like if they were up 10 with two minutes left,

you put Porzingis out so he can get into the last game, which seems very trophy participation-ish to me. I don't know why that would be the reason. So I think they were fucking with him. I agree with you on that one. But do we see him in game five is the big question in game five

because they really need him. I don't think they can play Tillman again. I think that worked in game five is the big question in game five because they really need him. I don't think they can play Tillman again. I think that worked in game three. I think Dallas figured out why it worked and they solved it. And now we can't see him again. And they need more size. They need rim protection and rebounding for whatever those non-Horford minutes or need to go small with Tatum, which I mean, my dad and I like had a serious conversation about, would you throw Kata out there for three minutes? And by the way, neither, neither of us thought it was nuts. Did you like the Kata minutes? I there's certain matchups where I don't mind Kata. I'm sorry. I don't mind them.

You know, if you're putting him in space and people are going through their legs, somebody's going to score on him. But if we need rim protection and rebounding, I kind of like him more than Luke Cornett. Where are you right now? Give me... Nervous. You are nervous. I'm more nervous than most.

Yeah, because Lucas, every one of these first halves has come out. We've covered this in part one and it's just dropped huge points on them. And he seemed, I thought in game four, again, Boston played terrible, but Luca is just really comfortable getting to his spots now. And if he's getting calls like at game four, I thought the refs were a little more Dallas friendly,

which was predicted, predictable and predicted. And I thought Boston got job done a couple of calls. They would have lost by 32 instead of 38. Yeah. You're not actually blaming the officials for game four. I'm not. For the record? You found a couple of calls you didn't like?

I didn't like a couple of the calls. I thought we could have lost by 32. Grab some rebounds. Make your layups. Stop turning the ball over. So here's the number one thing that makes me feel good about game five.

I love Drew Holiday. I don't think he can play worse than he played in game four. And he's my number one candidate to be awesome in game five. I don't see him playing two shit games in a row. And I think he's going to be at a whole other crazy level because he just was one of, he had like a Butterfingers game. He just couldn't make layups, couldn't make little floaters, was dropping passes that were going out of bounds.

Even his defense was, was a little off and I just think he's going to be better. And then Jalen. Jalen had a weird game. He had like a 2022 Jalen game. He didn't have the same. I thought he was forcing it a tiny bit in the first half. I just think they're going to be a little more locked in. But KP is the big thing to me. I think they need 12 minutes from KP in game five.

Question for you. Yeah. I have not missed a minute of the stanley cup final i was really looking forward to this one was not thrilled when the panthers were up 3-0 on my oilers and it's fun just being a just an idiot who doesn't really know what he's watching and just enjoying the game yeah not thinking about anything i'm gonna say because i don't really have anything worth saying. Like Conor McDavid's legacy?

Yeah, but I also noticed that I'm guilty of what say LeBron does to viewership, right? When you look at the finals ratings and you go, how did we go from 17 million people watching the last version of the

Warriors and Cavs. I think that was, I don't know if that was the average number, if it was the peak number, if the peak number is even more than that. And then you think of like what the ratings are now, or I can't figure out, like, is it really that much lower just six years later? And you go, okay, the LeBron factor is that big of a deal. And here I am with the McDavid factor. Some would call it the dry sidle factor because I'm a huge dry sidle guy. He's unbelievable. Right.

He's unbelievable. Just his vision. It's Reed Shepard-ish. He's also amazing defensively, too. He's just ridiculous. Right, but he's been a disappearing act for the first three games. I don't think Skinner, most of the goals are like, Edmonton looks like the better team.

They make a huge mistake, and then it leads to a goal. So I didn't really think it was on Skinner. So the reason I set this whole thing up, also because if you had told me 20 years ago, there's going to be a moment where the Red Sox and Yankees are in town while you're in town, and you're going to stay home and watch the Stanley Cup final instead of Red Sox-Yankees. I would you're in town and you're going to stay home and watch the Stanley Cup final instead of Red Sox-Yankees.

I would have never believed that was a scenario that would ever happen. But it did. That's what happens when you trade Mookie Betts for a below-average starting catcher. I cannot believe where I'm at right now with the Boston Red Sox.

I'm actually, I felt guilty about it. I go, you're not even going to throw on Sox-Yankees? But when Henry did the whole, this team's an asset and we don't sell our assets, whatever, that was, I mean, I felt vindicated for, by the way, I still have not watched an inning of baseball, even though I'm following what's going on of the Red Sox this year, because I'm not supporting these guys. Wow. Okay.

So, big lead up. Not unknown for me Oilers dominate in game four much like the Mavs dominate in game four would it be worth it just for you to be alive for something as historic to have both the Oilers and Mavs come back down 3-0 it's happened in hockey before it's never happened in basketball. I know it'd be disappointing as a Celtics fan,

but as a chronicler of historic moments in sports, would you be okay with it? I would not. The answer is no. I think it's more realistic in hockey, though. Basketball, I think, unrealistic. Hockey, just so random and stupid. And there's been so many playoff series. I think unrealistic. Hockey, just so random and stupid and we've,

there's been so many playoff series. It's one of the reasons I lost a little interest in hockey over the air because sometimes you feel like that's how the series just ended. We were in double overtime

and somebody just did a wrist shot and it bounced off two guys' shoulders. I was going to all those Kings games in 2014. It was unbelievable i was going all those kings games in 2014 it was unbelievable that they they won all those rounds in a row with some of the 2012 they were the best team 2014 they needed a lot of luck i felt that way about the 2013 bruins too

hockey is just just rips your soul out i think it's the most aggressive ending of anything in sports other than like cockfighting because you think you're in control you've got the puck you've controlled it in your offensive zone they haven't had a sniff of their side of the ice and just stupid goal coming you could feel it right it just ricochets off some guy's skate whose head is turned right then it goes in and then in and then you're not even aware of it. And then you're at home and you're just like your heart is completely ripped out of you. And that's why I actually think it's less likely in hockey because of the randomness that there's no way that every break is going to go Edmonton's way four games in a row, right? Whereas Dallas maybe unlocked some things. Maybe Luka's grown up. Maybe Kyrie second time around in Boston understands what's going on.

I just think it would be too hard for the Celtics not to have at least one more awesome three-point shooting game. If you're going to really say, is this conceivable that they could blow a 3-0 lead? Would you retire? No. What would you do, though?

I mean, because that would be a tough one for you. I'd genuinely be worried about my dad's health because my dad might be too old for one of those moments. Us sitting. I was worried about him in the Miami game seven, and that wasn't even the finals. But, you know, it is scary when you watch how easily Luca scored a game four, right? You just kind of helpless, right? Which

is why they need Porzingis because you put Porzingis in at least for six minutes, a half, somebody's around the rim with his hands up that you have to think about. And they didn't have, once the guys weren't rebounding or protecting the rim in the right ways, it became super easy for Dallas. Derek Lively, I love Derek Lively. I'm really impressed by him. He's not that good. He's not 20 rebounds in two quarters. Like he's 20 years old.

He shouldn't be doing that to them. What I liked about it from Dallas too was like everybody was getting involved and everybody's kind of like having a fuck these guys kind of game. Yeah. No, it's true. But there's a lot of good history the other way of these blowouts that ultimately mean nothing. I mean, probably the best one was two years ago in Memphis. Remember, they beat Golden State by like 50, 55. It was just that.

And it was like, oh, my God, is Golden State done? I remember being on text threads. Like, is that it? Did they just kind of end the Golden State run? And then Golden State ends up winning the title anyway. So there's been a few of these over the years. And I remember even my favorite team ever, and I'm so delighted I get to bring them into the podcast, the 86 Celtics.

Game five, Houston, Seechting-Samson fight. Jim Peterson comes in, wreaks havoc, and the Celtics blow game five when Seechting Samson fight Jim Peterson comes in wreaks havoc and the Celtics blow game five when it seemed like they had the title wrapped up they come back game six and blow them out I think the thing

the thing to remember about Dallas is those roll guys on the road if it gets super hot around the collar I don't know how many of those guys I trust like do you trust those Derrick Jones threes when they're in Boston It gets super hot around the collar. I don't know how many of those guys I trust. Do you trust those Derrick Jones threes when they're in Boston? Do you trust Exum,

who's going to play more in game five, just being left alone? Hey, Dante, knock yourself the fuck out from 24 with the crowd going nuts in a second half of a must-win game. There's ways that they can shift pressure to some of these non-Kyrie Luka guys that I think could work for Boston.

I also think Tatum's going to be better. Jalen's been so good the whole playoffs. Is he really going to play two shit games in a row? I think they're going to show up tomorrow in a big way. Golden State lost five. We'll see what happens to Luka.

39. That was 134-95. But they were already up 3-1 in the series. Maybe it's because of the Warriors and the 3-1 jokes and whatever. But then they came back and closed it out. That was a series where I broke Verno's heart. Because I'd enjoyed

the Memphis thing. The Memphis thing is a real thing. Whatever it is, it's just different. It feels different. You know, you're watching a game in Memphis and I want that back. I want that back for that fan base. But the way those guys chirped and kind of, it was like, you guys need a little bit more of a resume, I think, to be acting like that. But maybe that's just the Memphis experience. Or any resume.

Where I was like, I'm, and everybody knows that I love Steph. So it wasn't like I've had a lot of opportunities where I've been rooting against him in his entire career. But that was a game six where I think I'd said at the pod, I was like, I hope they destroy them because of the way Memphis had acted in that home game. Yeah. Wait, before we take a break, you never told me what you think is going to happen in Game 5 of the 2024 NBA Finals.

I don't know why. I'm kind of waiting for the next stretch of threes that we saw in Game 1. I'm kind of just waiting for it and i imagine it's probably happening game five but i think luca's horrifying man and that's it's kind of funny because if you think at the start of part one of the pod today and here we are it just i know the issues i'm with you the things like we would all agree on the stuff you don't really like and it is kind of a reminder too of how intently people are now watching luca for the first time yeah because you're like hey look i thought he

complained more against okc in minnesota than he has in the nba finals and i don't know if you don't don't leave out the quipper series that was in person so i felt like my my observation of that was totally distorted because i saw it in person. And in person, it's even more ridiculous. We talked about it on the pod. I went to that one game with Rob Stone and he's like, is Luca always like this? It was like one of those.

He was just like, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. The whole time. Well,

Rick Carlisle was on with, with Chris Long on his podcast. And he said, he's like, if Luca's not the best player in the world, I don't know who is. I think there's probably another guy you could name. Yeah. Even if you want to pick luka over jokic i don't think it should be presented in a way where you're going i don't even know who the the second guy is but for all of the things about him

that can be and look it's six months it's the roommate theory we're annoyed we're we're annoyed with way more players right now than we're in love with him because we've been watching him nonstop since October, but he is capable of doing some pretty crazy shit. And there's a lot of times in a game where you're just like, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do with him because he's getting whatever he wants. And the zag now off the game four was incredible defense by Luca. That's the hardest I've seen him work on that end. And it was like, eh, he tried harder, there's no question. But Drew Holiday missed like four three-footers. Here's what happens.

When you don't play good defense and then you hold up in some switch against somebody because you guess right to the dribble side and then they play the clip like four times throughout the broadcast going, oh man. Like you only have to do it a couple times. It's the new version of the hardened post-defense recognition comment of every playoff game.

It's like, this guy's out of position, lazy, doesn't fucking care, doesn't adjust to personnel, but he'll get caught in a post and he holds up because the guy misses the turnaround. You're like, he's a great post-defender. You're like, yeah, because that's the priority now whenever I'm thinking about how to build a roster is who's a really good one-on-one post defender because nobody does it anymore so the newer version of this is bad defensive reputation and then has a couple possessions where he stays

in front of a ball handler and it's like all is fixed in the town rejoiced well i'll tell you this as we head to break. One of the many things I love about the finals, and you've heard me say this many times, is as the finals goes along, you trust people less and less and less.

And usually you're down to seven guys, maybe, by the end of this. My guess is Dallas is going to now be rolling with PJ, Jones, Gafford, Irving, Luca, Lively, Exum, and a whiff of Kleba. And that's it. A whiff of Kleba. A whiff of Kleba. Maybe Gafford starts

the game, but he's out in like four minutes. Celtics. Kleba's defense is a positive too. Yeah. No, there's weird plus-minus stats with him, even though he didn't do that much, that they were better in situations than the four. And then for the Celts, the starting five, obviously, Hauser, Porzingis, and like half of Pritchard. Because if Pritchard sucks like he did in game three and in the first half of game four, I don't know if you can

bring him back in the second half. To me, Pritchard is on a half-by-half basis now because he just hasn't played well. Those are really tough minutes for them to survive defensively because it just becomes Pritchard's season. If you look for it, and you'll see it in the first

half, but I think that's, if it's a tight game in game five, I'd imagine that's something Missoula is not going to want to, like, you're just going to have to extend the other guys. But you know, but you know, Boston's, you know, they're going to have two adjustments. I will say one other thing, and then we're going to go break with Dallas that, uh, it's a weird point, but I think I might even said this after game three, I thought Dallas spent so much time hunting for matchups with Luka. You know, they would chew up 10 seconds of the shot clock being like, oh, we got it. And then if this guy can come over and then Luka can have, and then by the time they got what they wanted, especially if they walked it up, there's like seven seconds left in

the shot clock. I thought in the fourth quarter game three and then all game four, they pushed faster. And sometimes they were like, you know what? Whoever's fucking guarding Luca, it doesn't matter. He's just going to, he'll just take that guy. They try, they try to switch matchups sometimes, but there are other times where he was just like, all right, fine. I'll just take Jason Tatum.

Fine. I'll just take Jalen Brown. So I thought they were moving at a faster pace that I thought really helped them. And Exum really helps them with that. Exum to me, if he plays like 28 minutes and hits a couple threes, that's a bad sign for the Celtics. But I would say for Dallas,

Lively and Exum are the guys to watch. And for the Celtics, the Porzingis minutes. And honestly, Drew. I think Drew could have an awesome game five because it feels like finals MVP is still in play too, right? Not that that would incentivize him in any way, but I could see a world where Drew is the best player in game five. I think Tatum's due.

Although, look, his game three was terrific. I know that it was the Jaylen Brown show in the second half, but Tatum was so good in the first half. His first half was fantastic. Right, but Brown, whether it's the Derek White or to Drew three,

or excuse me, the Drew kicked at the Derek White three where Drew went baseline. I thought that play was huge. Do you want more game log from game three? I'm going to stop now. Drew 38 to one on Fando.

Jalen's minus 230. Tatum's plus 220. Luca is 14-1. Let's take a break. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring,

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To discover how, visit bhp.com slash better future. All right, I gotta talk about the Lakers really quick with you. Why they don't have a head coach yet. I think it's weird. It's June 16th. It was one of the most covered topics of the last 10 days. They are still interviewing people. I don't understand why this took so long. They fired Darvin Ham seven weeks ago. And I was looking at the history of the Lakers since 2012. They've had

Mike Brown, Mike D'Antoni, Byron Scott, Luke Walton, Frank Vogel, and Darvin Ham and new coach X as their head coaches. That's seven coaches in 12 years. And it seems like JJ is the leader in the clubhouse. But as you watch the Lakers from afar, do you feel like they have a firm grip on the steering wheel just in general? What's your take? I didn't think it was embarrassing when they made the offer to Hurley

and then he turned it down because I saw a lot of that. Now, if you want to look at the whole stretch of it, yes, it does feel a little weird. And it feels like there's just a lot of different information flying out there. How does JJ Reddick go from the guy to then the Hurley weekend to then there was a report? And sometimes it's just wording. And if somebody has to title three podcasts a week, there'll be times where I'm like, I just want to hit send on this thing. And I don't care how this is framed. But to say that Reddick now moves to the forefront. Is that one interview?

Yeah. And then it was like, so who was ahead of him? It was like, I guess Hurley was. And then where's Borrego in all this? Because I just hope Borrego gets it. Because he's a great coach. Like, I did this whole coaching thing, and I wish I had talked about how, like, when I forced myself to watch a team that doesn't have a great record, be like, find a coach you like, though.

Find somebody in this. If you're always mad about people never pointing it out, then you have to do it. Like, find somebody. And Borrego was always, like, one of those guys for me. So what's happening is... So it's like when Bill Burr was the comics comic? Yes, exactly. Before he became a huge star?

It's like the other comics love Bill Burr. Then it was Shane Gillis. It was like Shane Gillis. Love that guy. Very good. Strong, strong for a man. So Borrego is the comics comic. Coach is coach. That, strong for a man. So Borrego is the comics comic. Coach is coach.

That's how I see it. I think all of us are living like this fictional version of it. So we don't know. And that's why it seems weird. Does that make any sense? I agree. But what's going to be even weirder is if Cleveland just hires James Borrego tomorrow, because there's not a lot of head coaching candidates left. I mean, part of the reason you hire a coach relatively fast is because every summer there's a certain number of qualified candidates available and then they all get hired. And they've kind of missed the boat on that. I'll tell you another thing. And, you know, we both like JJ and I think he's super smart and I think he really wants to coach and I think he's put a lot of thought into it.

If I was the Lakers, I would be super concerned about the NBA first-time head coaches with no coaching experience list. Do you want me to rattle this off? Have you looked at this? I do. Yeah.

The last one was Steve Nash with the 21 Nets. And I still feel like Steve Nash should have been a good coach. And maybe he was. Look at his record. It's actually, when you look it up, you go, oh my God, he actually did all right considering. Yeah, they came within one, what, half inch of KDs on the line of beating the Bucs and that's it. No, but whenever I look at his winning percentage, he won 58% of his games.

Now you can say, okay, well, the team is pretty good. Considering what a headache that was for him, I think that's a very easily forgettable number in that. Like, oh, he was bad and they fired him or whatever. When he was hired, people were really pissed about it. I wonder what that was. Derek Fisher in 2014 with the Knicks, which started his incredible cycle of NBA to WNBA

to high school basketball in LA over the course of 10 years. He also was paid, I think he had the seventh highest salary out of the jump. Yeah. Steve Kerr with the 2014 Warriors. Now, this was a no-coaching experience thing, but there's a huge asterisk with this because A, his two coaches were Phil Jackson and Greg Popovich.

So he had two of the best four coaches of all time as the only coaches he had for the last three-fourths of his career. Then the other thing was he was the Phoenix GM for like four years and was with Alvin Gentry every day. And it was just around a team and that kind of day-to-day decisions, seeing what it takes, seeing all the things that pop up. So even though he had no coaching experience, I almost can't count him because I feel like he did. Whatever his experience was as GM, every day being around the team is something more than not being around the team.

Jason Kidd, 2013 Nets. Mark Jackson, 2011 Golden State. Vinny Del Negro, 2008 Chicago. Kevin McHale, 2005 Minnesota. Isaiah Thomas, 2000 Indy. And Doc Rivers, 1999 Orlando. And then it goes backwards to Larry Bird, ML Carr, Magic Johnson, Quinn Buckner, Dan Issel, one of the Van Arsdales, and Paul Silas.

And I mention this because there's 18 guys. Which Van Arsdale? I can't remember and I'm not going to look it up. Only three of the 18 that I just mentioned reached round two of the playoffs. Steve Kerr, Larry Bird, and Steve Nash. 10 of the 18 coaches, first-timers, never made the playoffs. The point is, I think it's hard to just step in

and coach a team. And I think we're all glossing over that because if somebody's smart, but even you look at the difference of Missoula from last year to this year, it's like night and day. I just wonder if this is harder than we gave it credit for. What are your thoughts? I also think the industry would come up with a string of this. NBA coaching right now is chaos. It's a two-year job. Yeah. It's actually, people saw this being debated,

like, would you even want it? It's like, fuck, I've never wanted it more. I mean, again, I'm not talking about me, but if you were in that world, I'd be like, all right, so the salaries are making a massive, like, hey, the cap goes up spike, the average annual salary and the top-end numbers right now

for Kerr and Popovich and Spolster and this kind of stuff and the Monty Williams number. You're coming in going, all right, I've got to be at eight figures if I have any kind of juice or any kind of leverage. That's where the Lakers probably screwed up on the Hurley thing is that they really wanted to grab him out of UConn.

Did they screw up though? Did they ever want him in the first place? I don't know. Because that offer wasn't a good enough offer. They can't in a million years have thought that that was going to be the offer. And by the way, why didn't he counter?

Why wasn't there a negotiation? And then why did he do this entire day PR tour about the whole offer? I thought the whole thing start to finish was one of the weirdest stories in the recent history of the league. I still don't know for sure if the Lakers even wanted him as a coach. I don't know how he came out of nowhere. Why wasn't he the name that got mentioned in the beginning of May? Did he ever really want to leave UConn? Gino Arrema was making jokes about it. I thought Ethan Sherwood Strassard wrote a really good piece about it this weekend.

Just in general, it's a rare basketball story where it's over and I'm like, I still don't really know what happened. Were they just trying to leverage JJ, which I espoused to you a week ago when Conspiracy Bill came in? Were they just trying to leverage JJ

to get him to knock his price down by pretending they were interested in somebody else? I don't know. Are they just a mess as an organization? Is it true that it's just Linda and Kurt Rambis and Jeannie Buss, they just like hang out on a porch and figure out what's going to happen to the Lakers?

Because I think that might be true. I actually think that might be the Lakers. They like go out to dinner at Craig's and Kurt's like, I'll have the veal chop. And then Jeannie's like, I'll have the salmon. I actually think that might be the Lakers. They like go out to dinner at Craig's and they're, and Kurt's like, I'll have the veal chop. And then she's like, I'll have the salmon.

And Linda's like, how's the Branzino tonight? And it's like, it's great. And then they're just eating. Like, what should we do about a coach? What do you think?

Branzino has been huge for a couple of years. Branzino's on an incredible two, three year run. Big Branzino decade. Yeah. A lot of people are saying that. Do you think it's a decade? You know, the moves, uh, the years move. Big Branzino decade. Yeah, a lot of people are saying that. Do you think it's a decade? The years move fast,

so it may be a decade, but it feels like just yesterday I was like, what? I think all of that's fair. Seriously, I think all of that's fair. The Hurley part of it that I think is the funniest thing is he went on with everybody after to explain

why any speculation about it was wrong, which I thought was like he had one specific quote where he had said, oh, I thought the silliest take was that this was a leverage play. It was. It was. What are you talking about? What? How was it not? Why? Why did you point so specific to that which i think was a completely

reasonable thing which by the way no one would be on your case about right nobody would other than the hardest core husky fans that wouldn't want you to leave so i think jj probably my guess would be like can tease the first time time guy. They were like, well, that's not like, we know what the numbers are for head coaches, but that's not your number. And I would guess that JJ could say, well, yeah, but my number isn't about my lack of coaching experience. You have to convince me to take the job. This is what it will take. Right. Because I have a long runway, potentially, depending on what he does in the media. And there's no reason to put a cap on anything for JJ. But we touched on this already, I think, was it last week? Yeah, it was seven days ago when we laid out this whole thing. And by the way, it was right.

Yeah. So that's what I wonder. Well, but the other funny thing about this, Rosillo, is, so there are two choices here, are a head coach with no coaching experience, which is the results are checkered, to say the least. You know what else is checkered? Bringing a guy in from college to be a pro coach. That's also a thing that has pretty much never worked with a couple of,

a couple of zags. Brad Stevens. Donovan's been solid. Would you say above average? I'd say above average. But for the most part, it's been a lot of Lon Kruger, PJ Carlissimo. There's just been a lot of bad ones.

I remember writing about it a million years ago. It's really hard. It's apples and oranges going from college to pros. Patino, Calipari, we've watched a lot of people fail. Lon Kruger. Lon Kruger. Freddie Hoiberg. Let's take a break and we'll do What Would You Do? After decades of shaky hands caused by debilitating tremors, Sunnybrook was the only hospital in Canada who could provide Andy with something special.

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Scrolling TikTok and avoiding your chem homework. Chegg here. Hot take. You've seen enough Bama Rush, ASMR keyboard, and viral dance videos for one day. Let's lock in and start that assignment. If you need a little help, lean on Chegg's expert-supported learning tools. I say this with love. Put on some lo-fi beats and get going with our step-by-step study support.

Your weekend will thank you. Small steps today means big wins tomorrow. With Chegg. Subscribe today. You got this. Whether in the game or in life, the right coverage can make all the difference. with Chegg. Subscribe today. You got this. financially giving you the peace of mind to focus on what truly matters. Find their products through banks, credit unions, and associations, or visit SecurianCanada.ca. Securian Canada, insurance designed for life. All right, we're going to wrap this up playing a little game of what would you do? We did this

last week. We had fun. We're going to do it again. We're doing it again with the Philadelphia 76ers, Rosillo. Under contract, Joel Embiid, 51.4, 54.2, player option, 59. Tyrese Maxey, restricted free agent. Paul Reed, 7.7 million next year, 8.1 the year after. Some guy named Council, 1.9 million. That's it. That's all they have. Number 16 pick, they have that. Their free agents include your guy Tobias, Oubre, Batum, Lowry, Payne, Heald, Melton. They have about $53 million to spend in free agency potentially. They have two of their next four firsts.

They have in 2028 a Clipper pick. They have a Clipper pick swap in 29 and they owe their 25 protected to OKC and their 27

protected to Brooklyn that is the map everyone thinks they're going to go after a big player what would you do Rosillo

I feel like Sixers fans are getting a little little particular like we want this but we might not want this I don't know I feel like Sixers fans are getting a little, a little particular. Like we want this, but we might not want this. I don't know if,

I don't know if this is the perfect fit, but here's what they should do. They should, they should prioritize anyone that's going to say yes to them. That's just a yes. Right. So Paul George, we've been over it. Not perfect.

The injury stuff with him, by the way, this is the first healthy season that we've had from him in five years. And he turned 34 in May. It's also funny when you think of George. Most games he's played, right? Since like 2018, something like that? 2019? Yeah, five years.

Butler, look at his average games per season. Going back like seven years. It's a fucking joke. He doesn't even play over 65 games ever uh now granted some of that is also covet based where shorter seasons but like at the same time okay well what about the other seasons the funny thing is butler feels so much older because he came to the league older but he's 34 now 35 in september if either one of them are in play, even with their issues, that that now becomes your third person with how great Maxie has been and the best parts of Embiid. You can't

get cute about this. So you've got to figure out the one of two of those guys. Who would you rather have between those two? I'd rather have Paul George because I don't have to give up anything for him. I just get to sign him. If I go after Jimmy Butler, I now have to give things up for him. I have to give up picks. I have to figure out also why is Miami helping me just because Jimmy Butler's like, hey guys, I'm cool. I'd like to go back to Philadelphia. Is Miami going to be like, oh, that sounds great. Have to be some sort of three-team trade. Paul George is just easy. It's like just convincing him to come and sign him. What if it had nothing?

Because that's the right answer for everything you just said. But let's say there was no asset part of it. Say Butler were a free agent. Is it still Paul George? I'd rather probably have Butler at that point because he'd have a chip on his shoulder from the Miami thing and I think Philly fans

love him Vendetta Butler Vendetta Butler which we've seen in the past I like but yeah I think it's pretty even but the number one thing for me but Butler more of a pain in the ass, right?

Paul George is never going to be a pain in the ass. Okay. Right. And as old stars get older, they become more pain in the assy. Okay. Cause I think this is part of the Butler conversation is that you're right. His attitude, Vendetta, Butler, Philly, all of it. Like you don't have to worry about, is he, does he want to take the soul of the opponent?

All the things that we love about him and competitors and all that kind of stuff. But you have to ask yourself, like Maury and the staff would at least be going, okay, let's map it out two or three years. Embiid's personality, Butler's personality, Max's personality. Maybe it all fits. Maybe it's all fine. But with Paul Georgeorge you'd be like dude i get the third most shots tonight no problem which may be the problem but a podcast tomorrow like i think i'm just have you heard michael porter jr's he's been interviewing these porn actresses it's been awesome. It's fantastic stuff.

I didn't know he had it in him. I have three ideas for Philly. Number one is sign Paul George. I have that one too. Yeah. Number two is not Jimmy Butler. Can we talk about Levine? Yeah, you want to talk about him bad today.

So let's do it. Is there a Levine and Caruso combo trade that, by the way, fits their cap space exactly? And you try to get both of those guys from Chicago. And Chicago is going to be our other What Would You Do team. And I have a lot of thoughts about what they should do, but they tie into this. Could you get Levine and Caruso

and you give up like the Paul Reed contract, you give them number 16 and you give them that Clippers 2028 and you get Levine to waive his trade kicker, which I think is super important. I'm not trading for Zach. I already don't feel great about trading for Zach Levine, 43 million next year, 46 million,

then 49 million player option. I'm not throwing in the trade kicker, dude. I'm giving you a chance to go to Philadelphia and play with Embiid and Maxie. You're not getting rewarded for this. So wave it. Caruso's on an expiring 10 million. And now I have Embiid, Maxie, Caruso, and hopefully a chip on his shoulder. Zach Levine is healthy. And I didn't really give up anything other than the number 16 pick and a bad draft and a future Clippers pick. That would be my second idea. What do you think of that?

That's if Paul George stays with the Clippers. Butler is just making noise and Miami was making noise back and they're going to play out the year because they don't have to do anything and they'll worry about the option when they have to. So now you're going, okay, of all the other scenarios,

because I think there's, I really like it, first of all. I'm not going to be a huge fan of any Levine transaction where you're giving up something for him. Chicago's like... He's still 25 a game for his entire career. So just remove that and be like, this is now your third guy.

And he's a 25 points a game score. That's better than an information option. I know you and I are not fans. I get it. We don't, we're not huge fans. Not crazy about the defense. We've never seen him in a winning situation,

but if I get Caruso too, and I'm not giving up a lot and and now I still have some cash space. Well, we'll get to that when we do What Would You Do With Chicago? Then there's some version of that with Butler too, which I think they'd have to throw in more, which would be idea 2B. That's Levine's 2A,

Butler by himself is 2B, and I don't understand why Miami would do that unless there's a third guy involved in the trade and I don't know who that third guy is. Which we talked about last week. Is it Trey Young? And then could it be like Trey Young goes to Miami, Hero, and

somebody else goes to Chicago with other stuff. Wherever the three-teamer goes, that's the only way it makes sense. The Miami helping out Philadelphia part of it to the original start of this whole thing doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Well, also, I've never seen them do it. Good point.

I don't think Chicago would just go like, all right, it's time to move on from Levine. Can they get three firsts from Philly out of that? Or if you're Philly, you're like, hey, this is not... Zach Levine, and even with Caruso, who Caruso kind of falls into that Josh Hart category of like, we'll take him and we'll figure it out because he'll figure it out.

And every team can use somebody like that. So is that enough? Would Chicago be like... And then with Chicago, maybe is the bet that Philadelphia would be like, hey, who knows with Embiid? You're going to predict that all of a sudden he's going to be healthier the next phase of his career? So could those picks actually be one of those picks?

And then you're adding Levine to that, who's... Levine's not Mr. Durable? Yeah. Can we unwind this? Is Levine a negative trade asset or a positive trade asset? Do the Bulls have to get something back for Levine, or is it they have to attach something with Levine

to trade the contract? For them to justify their head. Well, I don't like him. Established. But I don't think Chicago can just trade him for nothing. To your question, is he something you have to get an asset back for? Yeah.

You still have to. We would have said that about Bradley Beal. What did they get for Bradley Beal? Zip. They got nothing. What did Washington get? They got some second rounders. They fucking get anything?

Well, he also had the no trade clause, so that made it impossible. Levine has the trade kicker. The kicker's way less restrictive than... No. The no trade clause is far more damaging to any potential deals than what you have

with Levine. I don't think Chicago... I think both of them are pretty damaging. I just don't think Chicago... It's not working out, the whole thing. They made him the guy. DeRozans more the guy. And I think Levine has issues with it. When I watch Bulls games and they're actually playing,

I still think you're going to have to be able to sell it to ownership, to sell it to your city, to sell it to the fan base. Like, you guys might not be fans of it, but he's not a salary dump. Here's idea number three. Philly moves back four spots from number 16. Let's move five back to New Orleans at number 21. And then they take Bronny at 21 and go all after LeBron. Because that's

basically the Paul George scenario again where now I'm not spending any assets and I still have those assets for one more move. What would you do for LeBron? I think Bronny is going to go in the first round because I think

that's going to be encouraged. You think it's going to be encouraged by the league or by Clutch? The latter. Encouraged in a way like, if this happens, then this will happen. There's a lot of Phoenix buzz right now. I'm just going to say it.

There is. And I don't know if it's real or not. Do you think Phoenix is doing it? Do you think Phoenix is doing it because it's what they want to do or do you think they're trying to mess with the Lakers? Well, Matt Ishbia has the same media strategist that LeBron in his camp has, Adam Mendelsohn.

So that makes me a little suspicious. But they seem really confident that he's getting drafted in the first round. And if you're Matt Ishbia and the draft sucks and it's like, let's get Bronny. They're telling us if we take Bronny, there's a chance that we could get LeBron too. You got to think about it because I don't know how many more years LeBron has left,

but it's one, it's two, it's three, whatever. He was an all-NBA guy last year. And if that's your backdoor way to get LeBron to play for you

on, you know, for 2.8 million a year or whatever, you got to explore it. But for Philly, he'd be able to play for a much bigger salary. So Philly, you do a two-. But for Philly, he'd be able to play for a much bigger salary.

So Philly, you do a two-year max for him? Three-year? I don't think they're allowed to do three-year. I think it can only be two. I think the Lakers

would only run that with that age rule. Yeah. But maybe you even say like, hey, LeBron, what if it's $35 million a year and then we'll have enough money left to get, you know, But maybe you even say like, hey, LeBron, what if it's $35 million a year?

And then we'll have enough money left to get you one other piece and get you a shooter or whoever. I don't think LeBron's leaving LA and I think the chances are slim. But I'm just talking about what are Philly's options. Because the fourth option is probably the most likely option. I can't believe we haven't mentioned it yet. Trade for Bridges? They do like two Bruce Brown type contracts for two guys from this year with the team option for the second year.

And both guys make like 22, 23. And they just kind of keep their options open for... It's December and Jimmy Butler is now not talking to Pat Riley anymore and is demanding out. Or whatever scenario pops up in December. You just kind of keep your chips on the table without knowing what you're doing yet. I think that's the most realistic if they don't get Paul George.

That's a tougher sell to Embiid because you've been gearing up for this. Like, I really think they need to walk away with something as opposed to like part. Now, this is part two of what the plan is. In part two, success is completely determined on the next guy wanting to be at your place, whoever that guy is. And then he has to be a good enough of a fit because I think you have to worry about Embiid if this summer doesn't go right for them. And I wonder if there's a Bridges trade where I think when we did all the Bridges stuff last week, I kept coming back to the point of like, I just wouldn't want to be in a hurry to be getting rid of this guy as long as he's cool with wanting to stay here. Yeah. And so this is just a very, a lot of these things that we do are really one-sided in the selfishness of like, okay, we could just do this. But is there a Bridges trade where then you still have a ton of cap space and kind of like your LeBron model of, hey, LeBron, here's the number.

We don't go full with you and we can still fill in the margins here a little bit. The problem is, is like the Rosen's probably still going to get a big number. The KCP stuff. Like when you look up, Hey, what do you think KCP can get a year? It's like, Oh, he's probably like 20 million a year. That probably means like 28 million. hey what's malik monk gonna make because the sacramento kings can only offer him 78 million so he's that's gonna get trumped there's gonna be a four-year deal out there that's gonna trump what sacramento could offer him with the cba rule so when i see like projections like oh monk could be like four years 100 million that means it's probably going to be like four for 120 so right so we could probably only get one of those guys. And then it's like, imagine if

you're a sixer stand going, what do we do? Well, you do the, you do Caldwell Pope for two years, 50 and it's like 25, 25, 25. But the second year is a team option. Now he could probably make 20 million a year without doing that. So maybe it's even you move down. Some of the guys I like in this... Kyle Anderson's a free agent. Caleb Martin's a free agent. Fontecchio, a guy that we both really like. Restricted.

Player option, but restricted. Would Detroit match two years for 40 type of thing? Derek Jones. Your favorite of mine, Najee Marshall is a free agent. Love that guy.

Chris Dunn's a free agent. Like you could patch, you could say the other way to go here is you have the 53 million in cap space and you just get four guys that are like 12 million a year that are really awesome role players, right? Let's say you get Caleb Barton ops out, Caleb Barton, Fontecchio, Chris Dunn, Najee Marshall.

You could basically put together a rotation and then try to re-sign a couple of your other Batum type guys for the minimum. It's a tough one because I think Phillies... Go ahead, go ahead. I don't want to derail it with Batum type guys for the minimum. It's a tough one. Well, go ahead. Go ahead. I don't want to derail it with Batum thoughts. So just keep going. You're hot right now.

Well, I think Philly's showing a lot of confidence. But if I were them, I don't know how you have confidence in the complete unknown unless you feel like there's a real chance you're getting Paul George. Because none of these, all these other scenarios are hypotheticals and weird.

I would want Bridges to be like, hey, could you tell your bosses you're annoyed? Yeah, what's my fear? Because he's also, they're on the clock with him too, because I think he only has this year, next year left. Right? So if you're going to trade him, this is the time to do it. It's also like it's a weird free agent year where Siakam and Ananobi are free agents, but we assume they're going to re-sign with their teams. DeRozan is a free agent that, would you be shocked on July 1st, it's like Philly signed DeMar DeRozan for $120 million for three years.

I wouldn't be shocked by that. It could be a mystery team. There's a weird Miles Bridges, who the fuck knows what he's getting, if he's getting anything. And then Clay Thompson, who mysteriously unfollowed the Warriors on social media the other day. What if he just didn't like their content? No one ever asks that.

Like he was disappointed with their social media strategy? He's like, are you guys doing the tortilla slap? I did that last year. I don't like what you did with Kavon Looney two weeks ago, and now I'm out. I'm unfollowing you guys. Nick Claxton, Hartenstein, and Valanchunas are all free agents that Philly would not want because they have Embiid, but might chew up some cap space for some other teams. I don't know. Having another big non-spacer with Embiid, you're basically, I mean, that was the whole Horford problem. Yeah. And they're stuck with Paul Reed regardless.

There's also a Chris Paul if waived. There's a funny D'Lo scenario because he is a player option where I'm trying to think of a worse fit in Philadelphia and I can't immediately think of one but give me five more minutes there's a Harden comeback Daryl and I hashed this out we're fine I've decided to return to the Sixers this was all work all along we just wanted to get some Clipper picks and now I'm back in Philly I can't believe you just came up

with this because I was thinking about it going what if the Clippers go we like you but we don't like you that much and Harden still thinking as he screwed this up himself two different times on not getting the money in the bank if he somebody goes dude the best option

is for you to go back to Philly and get the four years that you so desperately wanted like Paul George stayed LeBron was never going anywhere Jimmy Butler's going to get another year Bridges won't be traded DeRoz rosen signed with the pistons for an absurd number like dude hard just like maury probably like the whole maury's a liar summer tour i bet you if daryl doesn't have anybody to spend it on i mean he's worshipped this cat for almost a decade i love that you brought this up because i was thinking about it this week

going, there's a weird domino effect where Philly actually makes the most sense for Hardin. So Daryl gets the text from Hardin like 2 a.m. on Friday night. This feels like a 4 a.m. Those 4 a.m.

texts hit a little bit different than 2 a.m. But it might even be a 5 a.m. texts hit a little bit different than 2 a.m. but it might even be a 5 a.m. because it would be 2 a.m. Vegas time hey so I

maybe Daryl's taking the kids to practice so the first text is hey Daryl texts back hey second text can we talk do you have time to chat tomorrow

Darryl's obviously going to say of course what time I'm here all day and then we're out what do you think seriously what do you think I wouldn't rule it out, man. I honestly would not. I will say this about Daryl, and I think Danny Ainge is the same way

and a couple of these guys. These guys don't give a shit. They're fine. They have no long-term memory on anything. Danny brought Antoine Walker back like a year after he traded Antoine, and Antoine just went off on him and killed him. And a year later, he's like, you know who he is? Antoine just went off on him and killed him. And a year later,

it's like, you know what, you know, he is an Antoine Walker. Just brought it back. Didn't care. So, uh, yeah, I would, I wouldn't put it. If you're talking about stars, the list runs out pretty fast. I'm just saying that you're, you're looking at Caleb Barton and Simone Fontecchio really fast. Chicago is the other piece of this. And you asked, why would they do this? I have keepers from a what would you do standpoint. I have keepers. Kobe White,

Caruso in the 11th pick. I think are the only actual keepers on this team. Exciting. And Caruso's an absolute trade thing. They also have Zach Levine. We mentioned him. They have Vucevic making 20 and 21. DeRoz's an absolute trade thing. They also have Zach Levine. We mentioned him. They have Vucevic making 20 and 21. DeRozan is a free agent.

They got Alonzo expiring and a Patrick Williams restricted free agency thing where I don't think there's big bidders. They own five of their six next firsts. And they have a top 14 protected Portland pick and they owe their 25 first to San Antonio. That's top 10 protected Portland pick, and they owe their 25 first to San Antonio that's top 10 protected. By the way, I could see somebody left with their cap space being like,

why don't you just throw a dumb number at Patrick Williams so they don't match it? This year's Bruce Brown, where it's like two years for 40, but team option a year or two. It'd be different because if you watch, I don't know that the offense

is ever going to develop the way you would hope for somebody who's drafted as high as him. I liked some of his defensive moments. I wonder if there's a team that's like, hey, if you get this big wing and Chicago didn't do it right anyway. Isn't he super young?

I want to say he's like 23. Is that possible? I think he was like the youngest guy in the league when he got drafted. Looking this up. Yeah, he's 22 right now. Turns 23 in August. Leo.

And I think he's had some bad luck injuries too. I always kind of liked him. He'll have a moment at some point in his career. So here's my case for Chicago blowing it up. I don't know what the point of the team is. Let's start there. I don't think they're ever going to be top five in the East. There's this awesome draft coming up.

They have the 11th pick this year. They could do that Levine Caruso trade, try to get as many assets as they can. You let the Rosen go. Or if you need a sign-in trade and you can get something back, you do that Levine Caruso trade, try to get as many assets as they can. You let the Rosen go, or if you need a sign-in trade and you can get something back, you do that. And then I think Vooch on OKC or San Antonio has a little bit of value because San Antonio's, they'd have to trade Devante Graham back as an expiring, but that's fine. And maybe they would give them back their Bulls pick. Yeah. OKC. I'm not kidding. Well, he certainly was in game 82. Vooch to OKC is pretty interesting to me

because they have like 33 million to spend. He's on a two-year deal. He can bang a little bit down low with his low post game. He can also space the floor a little bit. And he just, I don't know, I kind of like it. And I wonder if they could just dump everybody, bottom out for one year, get some assets, and really focus on 2025. Because they watched that with the Bulls, right? I mean, the Blackhawks.

Where the Blackhawks end up getting this number one pick and highly regarded. Not quite McDavid, but probably next level. And now it's like, oh my God, the Blackhawks, here we go. I would do that over just trying to go 42 and 40 again. I don't understand the point of the Bulls. They don't pay the luxury tax. They don't really totally try to compete.

What's the point of this franchise? Well, I think the Vooch trade was them trying to compete. And they spent money on Lonzo. And then you started thinking like this, this actual like real depth in the backcourt with Kobe, with Caruso, with Levine, and DeRozan. And granted, you can move DeRozan up and kind of play him. Like there was a model here where it was like,

hey, that team's going to be a tough out. And Patrick Williams had to develop more offensively and Vooch, as we all know, the limitations there, but I actually do think it makes sense. Like imagine just Vooch is playing a complimentary or specific matchup piece for OKC, but they may think that that's still just too expensive.

And do we have to give up an asset for that kind of thing? So I, I actually respect the Vooch trade is a disaster. We understand it. But I respect kind of what they were trying to do. Because in this two-tiered planning system we have in the NBA, that if you're not a real title contender, that everybody's just supposed to blow it up.

And there's no reward for all the guys that work super hard around the clock, year-round. And hey, we had 48-win team this year. And the coach did a good job. reward for all the guys that work super hard around the clock year round you know and hey we had 48 win team this year you know and the coach did a good job we developed this kind of guy like no one care i'm not telling fans to get excited about but like we act like that doesn't even matter and it doesn't even exist so i thought the cells did that the cells did that in the mid 2010s and i think it it really helped them so there's track records of some teams doing it yeah you've brought this up in the past too.

It's like sometimes I think there was this detachment at times when teams were rebuilding where it's like, okay, cool. We're going to rebuild and we're going to be so violently bad that we're like, I don't love culture and all that kind of stuff. I'm trying to figure out like, I think it's a lot of catchwords and it shit doesn't mean anything. Do you win? Do you lose?

But there has to be some reward of like, hey, there's a standard here, and we have a standard. And if you're entering the league with like three draft classes with zero standard, and the only standard is that we hope we're even worse this year, and we're not really super into development because I'm pointing out Hinckley specifically with the Sixers, but he's not the only guy that ever did this, that the constant blow it up button, I'm not a fan.

In this case, this team is now pointless. We agree. I would use Caruso to dump the Levine contract and get assets. Well, you would get an asset for... Yeah, yeah. I probably would not sign DeRozan, and I would try to trade Vooch and I would just take my lumps for one year because it's still the number three market in America. They should still

at some point be able to thrive. They have the Michael Jordan legacy and there's just no reason the team should be meaningless. And right now it is. There's no scenario where there will be a top 10 team next year. And if I'm in a situation where there's no scenario where I'm going to be a top 10 team, then that's where I think you have to take a real deep thought of what are we doing here? And I think they're at that point. They got bad luck.

They had bad luck with Lonzo. There's no question. And the Patrick Williams pick seemed really good and it just didn't work out. Philly, your final recommendation is what? Paul George or Bust? Paul George number one. Paul George or Bust? LeBron?

Interested at all? Depends on what the number is. Okay. And Bulls, your final recommendation is what? depends on what the number is. Okay. And Bulls, your final recommendation is what? The full-blown reset button that I usually... I don't throw that out there a lot, Bill.

I know you don't. It's like when Windhorse went after Luca. It was the same thing. It's like it carries some weight because you're not just ramming the blow it up button. When you say it, you mean it. Cooper Flagg?

Well, the Brockton kid. AJ. Ooh, look at you. There's some spice in your tone. Cap space, just for, I forgot to mention this. Detroit, $62 million. Philly, $53 million. OKC, $33 million. Orlando, $32 million. this, Detroit, 62 million, Philly, 53, OKC, 33, Orlando, 32, and Utah, 31.

Utah, which we'll probably do next week for What Would You Do, is a really fun one because that could go 90 directions. They could also spend their cap space on a marketing extension. There's a bunch of 12.9 million exception teams, Brooklyn, Houston, Washington, Charlotte, Toronto,

and then a couple other ones potentially too. So that is that. All right, before we go, I have some quick questions for you. Do you believe Barkley is retiring? No. I don't either. Not a fucking chance.

I also believe that. I think he knows he's done in a year at TNT because TNT is not going to have basketball in here. I may retire during part two, though. We still have more on the bone. No, that's it. Trevor Lawrence, $275,200,000 plus guaranteed. Would you have done that?

Yep. Okay. I would have not wanted to do it. Gulped hard, but still done it. Will Conor McGregor ever be in a main event again? Yep. Yes. Are you fast? Yes. See me. you just what's up what's up and what's up with that now it's just a question third you're a fan of america you're a fan of america with yeah i was in dallas for game three and game four and i was walking around in 95 degree weather and i was trying to figure out where the downtown was and i was just walking around aimlessly for two days yeah does it have a

downtown one big long downtown i feel like dallas has all these cool areas I've never been to. Yeah. That's what, that's why I was walking around. I was like, I feel like this is, I want to unpeel this. And I,

I didn't get there. Maybe I got Houston down. Yeah. Right. I definitely have, I definitely have Fort worth down. No, like the back of my hand,

spent a lot of time at Fort Worth. Dallas, I always feel like there's something better than what I'm doing. And it's all around me and I just don't know where it is. Dallas is interesting because near the hotel I was staying at, they had a Whole Foods right next to a 24-hour barbecue place. And I was like, that's probably why I'm confused. Those are two confusing things to be next to each other. All right. Last question. Do you think Karen Reed did it? I don't know the case. I know. Can you promise me, can you promise me you will recill a deep dive this case? Because I was resisting and resisting and resisting and being in Massachusetts here for the finals and hearing people talk about it,

seeing it all the time, and then I finally got sucked in and now I'm the most in. So please deep dive. I've seen different stuff. I've seen this one reporter had these videos and I was like, I just don't know if I have room for this right now.

And everyone of my friends... Make the room. My friends are all over this. They love every minute of it and they're just as mad as you are. All right, fine. To-do list. We'll add it to the list.

As somebody whose favorite character is Shine's mom from the town, I'm going to say you're going to like this case. Chris. Russillo, a pleasure to see you as always. Thanks to Steve Cerruti and Kyle Creighton as well. And that was it for part two. Don't forget about Russillo's podcast.

Don't forget about Fairway Rolling with Joe House and Nathan Hubbard breaking down an incredible U.S. Open. And don't forget about Talk the Thrones on the Ringiverse talking about House of the Dragon. Good to see you next time.