The Bill Simmons Podcast - Part 2: Lakers-Nuggets Picks, the Warriors' "End of an Era" Loss, and Suns Trade Options With Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: May 15, 2023

In the second part of the podcast, The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss the Lakers heading to the Western Conference finals and whom they like in the series against the Nuggets (02:00). Next, they talk about the future of the Warriors and if this was an "end of an era" loss (27:00). Then, they play the "What do we do now?" game with the Suns, including trade ideas for Deandre Ayton and Chris Paul (45:00). Finally, they close it out with how the Knicks can take another step forward this offseason (1:00:00). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producer: Jonathan Kermah Additional Production Support: Steve Ceruti Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, part two of the Sunday NBA extravaganza with the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the Chargers are going to be good. I think Seattle's going to be good. And then trying to back what you think in those first few weeks and then zag the other way if you were wrong. You could bet on new and fun markets on FanDuel like to catch a pass, same game parlays, highest scoring game across the Sunday slate, offensive TDs in the next drive. They have so much stuff. It's crazy. The app is safe and secure and easy to use. And when you win, you'll get paid instantly. Plus, look out for FanDuel Squares this season.

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where we broke down Succession Episode 8. Me and Joanna Robinson and Sean Fennessey. Also, new rewatchables coming tomorrow with a pretty massive movie. There's no NBA game tomorrow, Rosillo. So we decided we will do an absolute banger. You want to know what it is? I do want to know what it is. I'm always curious by the selections. Trading Places.

40-year anniversary next month. We jumped the gun. You want to talk peak go-tos for young Rosillo? That was number one. At one point, I would say a couple of years of my favorite movies. Thank you. You've been helpful. Well, you criticized Chef last week, so we felt like we had to step it up and win you back.

It didn't matter. It didn't matter what you said last week. I was just taking a slight jab. I'm sorry. Part two of the big podcast coming up. If you missed part one, we broke down the Celtics throttling the Sixers and what that meant for both teams going forward. This is part two. First, our friends from Pro Gym. All right, Priscilla, we're going to play a little game of

what do they do now with all the teams that got knocked out this week. But let's start with the Lakers, a team that has looked increasingly more like a championship team as March, April, May has gone on. I went to game four. I went to game six. I thought LeBron was absolutely fucking awesome. Unbelievable in game six. I also thought he was awesome in game four in a different way because he had such control over the proceedings. You know, it's one of those things. It's almost like this happened with Brady and a couple other great athletes as they get older. Their

sports IQ just goes to all other level and they can just problem solve immediately. They got Davis. They got two rounds out of him. They have all these role players. You never know who's going to play well, but one of them always ends up playing well. On top of it, LeBron does seem like he can

get there if they need him. He knew they needed him in game six. We're going to talk about the Warriors and how bad of a loss that was for them and what it means going forward. But from a Lakers standpoint, my question with them was always, how is LeBron in year 20

and how is Anthony Davis, who's made a glass, going to make it four rounds? Well, they made it two rounds and they have a Denver team. I think Denver's better, but the Lakers have at least hit the point for me where I'm not going to like load up on and bet on Denver and say they have the best player. They're going to win this thing.

I think the Lakers have a little bit of a look to them. They really do. I was, I was genuinely impressed by them and especially how they stepped on the neck there in game six. Where are you at right now with the Lakers as a title contender? It's probably the first time I'm like, holy shit, this is happening. I don't know that I felt it before the playoffs started because part of me, when I looked at the record was like, okay, you know, they have to make this push. Like they have to play these games to like win them. And now you're always in that weird stretch of the season where you do have, even though tanking's not nearly as bad,

you have teams tanking, you have people resting people. And it's like, well, they had to play it seriously. But then you run into Memphis. So it's almost like an extra playoff series, right? Yeah, it's like they already had a round one before they even had round one. Right. And then Memphis is a mess,

which I know we'll talk about a little bit later, not only with injuries, but who that team is after. Even though I ended up playing out in six games going, man, Golden State was such an easy matchup for them because they always knew if they could get downhill consistently enough. I know we talked about it in part one, but seeing LeBron in the closeout game go, all right, do not let up here. Let's keep going. I think it gets back to the AD part of it, where maybe we should just remind ourselves of...

I feel like I'm kind of going all over the place. Guy turned 30 this year. He had played, since he's been in New Orleans, 56 games the last year there, 62 in the first year with the Lakers, and they won the title. Then he played 36, he played 40, and he's played 56 games this year. This is actually the healthiest he's been in three seasons. And the reason we all

freaked out about it, we keep revisiting the trade the entire time, is that he really is this good. And even if he doesn't score 30 and get you 15, or maybe he doesn't hit the jumpers the way that he used to, which made him even more of an offensive weapon. I know, look, I guess I can only speak for me personally, is that I still was like, wait, will it all come together at the perfect time for the first time since they won that title? Because that's who this team has been. They've been in this seasons long, not one season, seasons long, like what is wrong with you guys? Like even last year when everybody was making fun of them, I'm like, dude, if Anthony Davis is average, Anthony Davis and plays 65 games, they're still probably a pretty good team.

And I kind of broke my own rule with that. So yeah, I'm open to it, but I'm picking Denver. I'll save my pick for the end of this segment. On Davis, I think what's intrigued me about what's happened with him in the playoffs is they don't lean on him that much offensively, especially in the second half. Because I think LeBron's supercomputer brain

has been like, we actually, this is what we need. We need rebounding and defense and you to finish around the rim, offensive rebounds or lob, stuff like that. But we have enough offense. Just do all these other things. Don't get hurt. Wait, you think that was by design?

Because I thought people were pretty pissed. I don't know. Because after game five, when they lost, I thought people were pretty pissed. I do. I don't know. Because after game five, when they lost, I think people were pretty pissed that AD, what, had four shots in the second half? I felt like in game six, the way they were using him was so different than how they would have used him three

years ago. I'm shocked by how much they trust Reeves. And then D'Lo is kind of, does he have it? Oh, he has it. They trust him. Then he has the ball. But a lot of the offense was really running through Reeves and LeBron. And it seems like they're the most successful when those two guys have the ball. The Reeves thing's incredible. And we've been talking about it for a while. I came to the conclusion he was genuinely good

like two months ago. Because I think in your head, you just think he's, oh, he's like one of these guys. And you think, you know, he's just a three point shooter in the corner guy. And he's like the opposite. To me, he, I forget who was the first one who said they reminded him of Gordon Hayward, not because they're both white, but just the way they play. Well, it's impossible. We're not allowed to actually compare. Go ahead.

Yeah, true. Fair. He reminds me of Utah Gordon Hayward, the way he plays. He's just really smart basketball player. He's really crafty. Utah Gordon Hayward, the way he plays. He's just a really smart basketball player. He's really crafty. He's really good in the paint. He's in the right spots. And the fact that he can initiate offense and they can run plays for him and they can attack matchups with him, and then the random D-low, and then the weird Lonnie Walker stuff that started happening the second half of that series, I guarantee the Warriors and Steve Kerr must be like, how the fuck, where did that come from? On top of everything

else that's going on, Lonnie Walker in game four and game six, being able to initiate stuff and make wide open threes. I just think they have a lot of options. So for Davis, it's great because they don't need him to get 30 a game anymore. They need him to have the game he had in game six, which is like, you know, he wouldn't have 20 rebounds. He challenged a bunch of shots. He played really smart. He stayed on the floor and the offense is a bonus. He was never that guy, but I think he is this year. You disagree still. I do. He took nine shots in game six. They were up 20. They didn't need him to score. Game four is the one where he had four total shots in the second half and people were actually pissed about it, even though they won that game.

But they won, so it was the right idea. Look, we're talking about championship here. Here's the funny thing about the Golden State part of this. Golden State doesn't get to suck, but also be an incredible accomplishment. And that's

the way they've been talked about for the last couple days, where it's like, they weren't even that good in any way. Like, okay, well then now what am I supposed to do? I think Davis is going to have to be much more assertive offensively. I think it'd be great to see another team make Jokic work a little bit more on defense, which I think Phoenix didn't do. I can't wait to talk about that. Phoenix, decided against it. They did the opposite of what the Celtics did today. Right? Phoenix was Jokic just got to do whatever the fuck you want

in that series. But I know what you're saying. On the Davis shot so quickly? 13.6 field goal attempts in that series. Yeah, I want that number up. I actually don't want Lonnie Walker thinking he's Vinnie Johnson coming off the bench. Like, it's an awesome story.

Did you see some of the shot selection in game five when it was like, I've got this? Because I was like, oh man, like you're still, like it's a great story, but. Here's our disconnect. To me, Davis is the car that I don't want to go cross country with, but is really fun to drive.

Okay. If you're putting all the miles on him offensively on top of all the things they need from him, from defense, rebounding, and playing 40 minutes, he played 40 minutes in game three, or game six. He played 43 in game four. He played 44

in game one. They won all those games. They need him on the court. I just want to take him for a drive. I don't want to go 120 with Davis. I just want to go 70. And I just, if he goes six for 12, seven for 13, five for nine, but does all the other shit I need from him,

that's what I want. And I don't want to put too much on him because he's made of glass. I don't want him to shoot 25 times and do all the rebounding block stuff because I don't think he can handle it. And he's going of glass. I don't want him to shoot 25 times and do all the rebounding block stuff because I don't think he can handle it. And he's going to get hurt. I don't know, man.

You know, like the other part of me with the injury stuff where I think, I wonder, this is like a science debate, so we're not going to get too into it. I like it. Is he actually at the point where he's played so long, the injuries that we think are going to end his season, he's actually like the body's more adjusted to him. You know, the old Harbaugh thing. That he's played so long, the injuries that we think are going to end his season, he's actually like the body's more adjusted to him. You know, the old Harbaugh thing.

That he's weathered. Yeah, that he's a little bit more weathered and that some of the stuff that we all freak out about, you know, where you're like, uh-oh, he's down. It's like, oh, he's back up. He's back up this time. Let's do this. I know what you're saying,

and maybe it's by design, but I think now as the stakes get a little bit higher and we're talking about the Lakers potentially winning a championship, I'm going to want more than four shots in the second half against Anthony Davis, despite what you think is a calculated approach.

I think in game six, that game, granted, it was like a 10-point game again there where you're like, wait, is this a game? But it didn't feel like it. It didn't feel like they were being threatened like they were in, say, some of the other games in that series.

The thing I noticed in Game 4 and in Game 6 where LeBron, he took over the second half of Game 4. Everything they were doing, decision-wise. And then Game 6, same thing. He wasn't that interested in Davis. He was interested in all the other stuff he did. But what he really wanted to do was, you know, whatever the mismatch was, put Miles on clay, but what he really wanted to do was, you know,

whatever the mismatch was, put miles on clay, attack Jordan pool. Anytime they could. I don't know if you noticed the first, like five, six plays of the game Wiggins, where it comes out,

he's got this rib cartilage thing. LeBron posts them up and goes hard into his body each time. Right. It was totally deliberate by design. I don't know if the announcers talked about that, but in the stands watching it, I was like, oh, I know what he's doing. He's fucking testing out Wiggins' ribs.

It was like watching a football team know that the right defensive end is playing on a bad knee. It's like, let's run four straight run plays at him and see how his knee holds up. He was in such control mentally of everything. And the team really feeds off his confidence. It's really impressive because we've been really hard on LeBron sometimes over the years since we started doing this stuff about when he's out on his team, he's really out

and you can feel it. And when he's in on the team, you can feel it and the team feels it. And he's got... What like what's, what's happening with Reeves. I'm just not positive. This would have happened on other teams. Like Reeves now thinks he's like this go-to fucking dude. And he might be, and against Denver, he's going to have good matchups against Denver. Like they're going to need them. You know, D'Lo will have three good games out of the seven. He just will. He'll suck in the other ones. Schroeder has been reinvented as OKC Schroeder again, right? He's doing, he doesn't take the dumb weird Dennis Schroeder. There's no crazy drives when they have momentum.

He's just like, same thing. It's just playing smart. And everyone defers to LeBron. And that's why I think they have a chance. But I'm still picking Denver because I think Jokic is the best player in the league. So I'm taking them for the series, but I do not feel great about it. I wouldn't bet a ton of money on it. Yeah, you're right about the Russell stuff because there's going to be a night in game three where he comes out and you're going, oh my God. Then there's other games you're like,

can Darvin stay with him right now? I don't know if Darvin will get to that point with him. There might've been more margin for error against Golden State because I just couldn't get over the big, small advantage in that one. As you were watching it play out in the playoffs, I was like, man, they kind of have this thing that they can always kind of default to. And that's why I think specific to that Warrior series, I would have liked to see AD take more shots in the second half. Again, game six, maybe they just felt like, hey, we've got this one, but it wasn't the

case in game four. They just didn't get it to them enough. But the Reeves part of the development was out of necessity, right? That's how bad the rotation was. And I think LeBron definitely trusted him because he's like, dude, at least this guy is here every night and he's making the right play. He moves the ball. He takes the open shot. He's not just a chucker. He's not somebody that's afraid to shoot.

There's some parts defensively where I think he competes. There's other parts of him defensively that I don't love. But he's been kind of the constant after the main two guys.

It's like what happened with Rondo that year when Rondo was suddenly right? He all of a sudden it felt like a big three because Rondo was so good in the bubble in the bubble playoffs. Remember? Oh, you're talking about the Lakers. suddenly, right? He, all of a sudden, it felt like a big three because Rondo was so good in the bubble playoffs, remember? Oh, you're talking about the Lakers.

Yeah, right. In 2020. But that Rondo run. Reeves' ascent, same thing. It's like, all right, I don't understand this, but he seems like he belongs as maybe their third best player. I actually think he's their third best player. Yeah, because Vanderbilt's hit or miss.

I do like what I've seen from Schroeder. I really do. Me too. He's been a guy defensively at times you think you're at a disadvantage with him, but I'll give him this. He works his ass off. He fights around screens.

He stays in the play. He's good. I think Curry is frustrated as I've seen Curry in person in a game. Not like Curry wanted to punch him, but he was just following him around, touching him. He was constantly touching him and just always kind of in his

grill. When he got thrown out of game six, I felt like it was going to be a big moment, but Klay could just never get going and they had no chance. As much as he probably shouldn't have been thrown out, I thought a lot of people missed this. He was getting the tech because he wouldn't give the ball back to the ref. That was his second tech. I get it.

If you're going to the events and be like, this guy gets a ball shoved in his face, which Draymond, that's the part with Draymond where I'm like, there's some major shit on the line here. You've got to stay and you're almost going to give yourself this. He's 3,000 in like two minutes. He kind of unraveled.

As much as it seems unfair, Schroeder not giving the ball back. But I think the other part of all of Golden State being frustrated with Schroeder is that he flops. So if you're a Nuggets fan, prepare to lose like two calls a night on him coming around screens where he does fight to stay in it, which I'd mentioned earlier,

which he deserves a lot of credit for, but there's going to be a time where he's not going to get there. And he can be a little funky with it and he's going to get those calls a couple times, and it's going to be bullshit, and it's going to happen. There you go. There's some stuff the Warriors did from a ball movement standpoint, mostly with Peyton. There was a lot of backdoor stuff and just trying to lure Davis out past the foul line and then beat

him basically to the rim. Denver is probably the best team in, I don't know, 10 years of doing. They get all kinds of cheap layups that way. They're not cheap because they're great assists, great plays, but they thrive on that shit. They thrive on, you know, I probably watched Denver more than any other team this year, except for the Celtics. A lot of the stuff they do is perfect

for what the Warriors were trying to do the Lakers, but didn't have the right people. They just didn't have the right team to do kind of what they want to do. That guy, like if they had a mid 2010s, Iguodala would have been perfect for that series. All that back cut movement stuff. I think the Lakers are susceptible.

And then you think they're going to put Schroeder on Murray and he's going to bug Murray and be in his face the whole time. They're going to try to use Reeves to attack a couple of the Denver wings. And then LeBron, over and over again, when the game slows down, they're going to hunt Jokic and they're going to go after him and they're going to try to use Jokic's defense, which, by the way, is not much worse on the perimeter than just about any other center in the league, but they're going to try to use that against Denver and put some miles on them and bang them. They're going to fuck with them. I could see the game plan. I just think Denver's the best team in the league.

That's why I think they're going to win. I still want to see somebody beat them at home. It hasn't happened yet. No. I'd like them to be beat them at home. It hasn't happened yet. No. I'd like them to be better on the road, but you go into Phoenix and trounce them and you just blast them right out of the building at the end of that first quarter. Kill them.

When Denver, when everything's kind of flying around, I think their role players, like any team, any team can have role players. You're like, oh, this guy didn't do anything tonight. You're like, yeah, that's why he's a role player. That's why he's on his fourth team in seven years. But it's more fun to be a role player with Jokic and your lows may not be as sustained because you know, as long as I keep running and as long as I keep running to the spots and I stay in it and be ready to catch. I think the other thing too would be Gordon on LeBron

where it's just a lot more size and athleticism than Golden State had. They had no real option because they had to figure out the loony Draymond minutes on Anthony Davis. And I give Draymond a ton of credit for trying. He's trying the whole time. He's trying to find a way to compete.

And I think Davis, back to what we were talking about when we initially started talking about the Lakers, sometimes can make it easy on the opponent there. But this will at least be more sized to try to impede some of those LeBron post-ups where it looked like free money for LeBron far too often. LeBron was actually making even some tough shots as he curled into the paint and stuff.

No, when he fades away in that turnaround, that's your best outcome if you're the other team. Yeah, and it was going in. When he shouldered the basket. He had one play in the second half when he drove to the basket and he was anticipating the contact and he's just so good and so smart

about how to get a call that he just kind of flailed his body out, but the guy ducked away. So LeBron did this flail thing, but there was nobody there and he didn't get the call, but it was like, it just shows you like, oh, that's the thing you do that 19 out of 20 times your elbow hits a guy and they're going to call it. Like he, I don't know, man, that from an IQ standpoint, he's about as high. It's so funny, like the athletic ability that he has and all the other shit, but just from

the way he dissects games, like it really is up there with Bird and Magic and Jordan for me, which no surprise, breaking news, LeBron is one of the best. But I've just never seen, it's like watching a quarterback. It's like watching somebody two minute drill and just solving in real time, whatever the issue is and figuring out like, oh, that's your issue. I'm going to, we're going to hone in on that. And what's cool is that he has the right team now

that I think the hoops IQ in this team is actually really high. You know, there's not like, there's no jackasses. It's all people who kind of know how to play basketball and where to go and what to do. So the fact that this happened blatantly, I do think the trades were a little overrated because like, I don't know, Vanderbilt barely played. You know, Malik Beasley doesn't play at all. The Russell hit or miss, but sometimes he's a miss. Rui comes in, he's another hit or miss. But the totality of it,

it just feels like they always have two guys who might show up, you know? But that's back to the AD point. Like, yeah, all the trades happen and they're all rotational guys. Rui had some of the Memphis games. You forget he's even in the Golden State series at times because they tried him at the five once. You're like, oh my God. Yeah. Russell, we've covered. All right. I would push back maybe on the full five basketball IQ guys with some of the decisions that he makes, but he doesn't- I'm not counting him. You knew I wasn't counting him in that.

But he still is not as reckless because he's not in charge anymore. So him being in charge in Minnesota made him way more dangerous where I know he's good for one of the games. I'm like, see, this is what I'm talking about because I've already seen a handful of them, but I was in attendance for game three. And I'm like, this is also the other part of him where the guy's so damn talented he can make.

That floater that he hit. And what was it? Game four on the baseline. Or was it game six? The floater that he hit. We were like, what the hell? Like,

I can't, he's got a nice little, he's got that nice little post-up step back that he hits. I think one of the, the reason he's important for them is whatever play they're running. They don't have those sequences like what Philly had today, where it just felt like they couldn't get a good shot for six minutes.

With the Lakers, they'd be like, oh, this would be the play where D'Lo has the shot. And he'll get a D'Lo shot. Whether you like the shot or not, it'll still be a three-pointer, it'll be a step back or whatever. Reeves will get something going to the basket. When Rui comes in,

Rui's shockingly big in person. He's huge. He's legit. Almost seems like he's 6'10". So when he's posting up a smaller guy, it feels like a good shot. Every Davis shot feels like a good shot. LeBron. So I think they're a really good team.

I really do. I was really impressed by them. And I really thought they broke Golden State by game six. And it wasn't just what was going on with Golden State. I think the stuff the Lakers were doing broke them. They were physical. They overpowered them. And I really thought they broke Golden State by game six. And it wasn't just what was going on with Golden State. I think the stuff the Lakers were doing broke them. They were physical, they overpowered them. And there haven't been a lot of teams like this that could physically overpower you and get to the basket in the ways that they get. On the flip side, I just think Denver's awesome. And it's almost like prove to me you're not awesome.

I'm at that point with them. I think at home, they're going to be just about impossible to beat. Right. Unless I'm thinking about, are they going to try Gordon on Davis? And then do they go with somebody smaller to chase LeBron around? I also wonder if you're Malone to be like,

okay, let's see if LeBron paces himself a bit. Right. So that we can use Gordon on Davis to try to fight and meet him when he's setting up for position. And if LeBron's coasting for the first quarter, can we get away with KCP on him? You can kind of tell right away with that with LeBron, right?

Where it's like, oh, you're doing that thing where you're going to just go through the motions for an hour and you're saving yourself for the second half. Game six was not like that. Game six was like, I'm coming out hard. And he was exhausted too. We got to put Gordon on there. Yeah.

That's why I was just so impressed with him in game six. Not that anytime he does something awesome. But I want to finish though, one of the things that we were going over there is we're talking about all these rotational pieces up, down, the whole thing. It just gets back to what we said in the beginning. If you told me I was going to get really good AD again, then I would have thought the Lakers are capable of anything. But I, again,

broke my own rule in believing in him for as long as I have, being like, wait, you guys just think he sucks at basketball? All of a sudden, he's 29 years old

when this was all happening last year. Like, he's not just going to suck at basketball. And then I couldn't make the health bet anymore. I'm like, God, he's just the worst health bet.

Yeah. Sports media broke up with him. It wasn't that I, all of a sudden, you know, thought he was bad, but now I'll admit myself. I'm like, okay, wait, if you always thought he was this good, none of this should be surprising. You shouldn't be picking against them. Like, here we go. And I guess I'm doing it one more time. So we'll see how it goes.

Really, really, really good series. And just last thing, and then we'll take a break. I really think Jokic is that great. Like was texting jaylen over the weekend because jaylen had some quarters like nicole yokage is vaulted to superstar status i know he's won two mvps he had that he had that quote and i had to text him and tease him about it but i just think he was somehow like ridiculously underrated even though he was doing all the stuff he was doing. And that Phoenix series, you could feel from a casual sense, people like, whoa, Jokic. It's like, yeah, this guy's one of the best offensive players of all time.

He really is. I think he's like one of the, I don't know, 10 or 12 best offensive players ever already. And the last thing he needs now, why are you smiling? I'm just listening. I'm just listening. Well, you kind of half smiled like I was like pouring it on too much.

No, not at all. I'm into this. I'm engaged. I think him putting it together and winning two more rounds and getting through LeBron and getting through whoever the East and putting on the map.

And then it'll be like, oh my God, Jokic, she finally did it. Now he's, it's like, he just has a good team finally. This could have happened last year or the year before. He's been this good for three years. He's fucking unstoppable. And I can't wait to see how the Lakers try to stop him because they have the smartest player, you know?

And how LeBron, how he tries to figure out with his little fucking chest brain, what do we have to do to make this guy work on one end and stop on the other end? I will say, I really, Darvin Ham's really grown on me. We're always like negative with the coaches, or I am. He had, he has such a good feel for his team. There was a moment, I don't know if it was on TV, after Schroeder got kicked out, when Draymond went over him,

was kind of going at him. Did they show that on TV? I don't know what you're saying. He was standing next to him and he was just talking shit to him and trying to get Darvin Ham upset. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Darvin Ham was just laughing.

But there was this moment, I think in the fourth quarter, Lonnie Walker came out. He played well for the most part and then he took like one dumb Lonnie Walker shot and hand pulled him. And he like, he talked to him like where they put their heads next to each other and talked and he like hugged them. Like it was like one of these things I'm pulling you because it's a better matchup for us, but I fucking love what you're doing. He like hugged them.

I think those guys fucking love that guy. And he's smart enough to kind of let LeBron decide his own schedule. You know, LeBron at one point, I think he played 42 of 43 minutes in game six. I went to game four where LeBron just put himself back in. I don't even think he told everybody. But he's smart enough to not get threatened by it. He's just like, LeBron, you do your thing. Well, I don't think this is new for a head coach for LeBron's minute rotation thing. It's like how Ben Simmons

will just leave my house now. Okay, let me ask any of you guys that are big on the coach stuff. Have you ever watched a coach during a series that he lost and was like, I really think he's connected to his team?

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Do great things this November. Signefine possible with Business Platinum. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. So the other piece of that Lakers series was that they broke Golden State. And I actually thought it was worse than maybe the reporting and stuff afterwards. Although the reporting got a little bit dark and there were some big pieces,

but just watching what I saw in person, game four, game six, I said after game four on this podcast, how they looked like coworkers to me and not a close-knit team anymore. And there's a whole bunch of reasons for that that we've talked about, where Draymond punches pool,

they have these young guys that all want to play. They have old guys who maybe aren't as good as they think they are anymore, who still think they are and carry themselves that way. A coaching staff that's been there for a while. It's just, there were things I didn't like seeing in game four. And I thought they were going to either lose game five or game six, but I didn't think they were going to come back from 3-1. Game six, it fell apart fast for them.

And they were kind of hoping for the Klay game because he had sucked in Game 4 and Game 5, and he was worse in Game 6. And Curry was the only guy on the team who could create a shot. And Curry has to go back to Jordan Poole at some point hoping that he's going to do something. He couldn't do anything. And they were just outmanned and looked pretty broken as a team. And it was really interesting watching Iguodala in the timeout huddles. Because the coaches did the thing where they all move off to the side. And then it was basically Iguodala and Looney trying to keep everyone together and be like glue guys. And there's this moment in the second half

where Poole was just mad. He was mad at everybody and they're trying to calm him down. And there's this moment in the second half where pool was just mad. He was mad at everybody and they're trying to calm him down. And he was mad at Steve Kerr about something. Steve Kerr got mad. Cause he missed, he missed some sort of defensive assignment. He came back and Kaminga and then Kaminga got mad that he never came in. There was two guys talking to him.

Somebody else is talking to pool. And I'm like, Oh my God, this is getting dark. Like there's like, this team has real issues. It was like being at a Thanksgiving table where a couple just starts fighting and you're like, Oh my God, our cousins, they're just, they're just fucking airing it out right in front of us. Um, to me, that team is going to make some, my, my takeaway is that that team's going to make major changes despite what they said. I don't believe

them. I think they have to. And if that change is just trade pool and trade Kaminga, if it's a little more ambitious and maybe Draymond leaves, I refuse to believe they're going to run it back. That is not a championship team. It's not. You're right about the

championship team, Par, and you were in attendance. And, you know I do think teams that are losing all look like they fucking hate each other towards the end of it they weren't close last they were close last year though that was one of the things that made them them last year was they

they were all kind of pulling together that's not what was happening this year that was the whole year that's why they're so bad on the road I'll say one thing and then I'll ask you a question. Whenever they lost the Draymond Green punch on Jordan Poole was going to be brought back up as to some death blow. All right. Like the only other version where it wasn't going to be brought up is that they won a back-to-back title, which wasn't realistic. So, you know, I think it's playing the results a little bit, unless you know for certain that they were all bummed out all year long,

and that's why they didn't play as well. Because it's funny, because Golden State loses in the second round. It's like, we should have seen this coming. Like, okay, we do the same thing with Miami Heat. We've seen this coming? That doesn't make any sense. You could see it coming after game four, though. Let me ask.

All right. Okay, fine. Game four. Game four down 3-1. They were bummed out. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. But something dramatic

happened to Poole this season and then especially in the playoffs. Like, he averaged 11 points a game in the playoffs. Right, but if they had

lost to Sacramento, it was going to be Draymond punched Jordan Poole. Dot, dot, dot. They almost did lose to Sacramento. They had the team meeting after game six.

Like, the Athletic wrote that whole piece about how Curry had to give like the first speech he'd ever given to the team in his whole life about how they had to stick together. I think this team had real issues. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm agreeing with you on the issues part. But I'm just telling you the way we tell stories is the Draymond punched a teammate story was going to be used in whatever fashion it needed to be used once this team was eliminated, which was more likely than not that they were going to be eliminated at some point. So the same stories that ran after game six were going to run after game seven if they lost game seven Sacramento. And I don't know if that means the entire vibe

was off all year. I don't know if it means could the vibe have been off because they knew they weren't as good and it was going to be hard to win a title? Or is it just because Jordan Poole regrets so much or just loves to foul everybody all the time? The reason I bring that all up is I agree with you on a lot of the Golden State stuff. It's just, what do you actually think they're going to do? How much different do you think they're going to be? Can I greeny tease it for you? Please.

Even though we're not going to a break? I'm going to tell you who the Draymond punch hurt the most. That's next. Then I come back from the break. That Draymond punch, you know who it hurt the most? Draymond Green. I think it affected how he led the team. And you know what's really interesting about the Lakers series?

All the Draymond stuff that he does that's great in a playoff series, he wouldn't do to LeBron and Davis. He didn't fuck with LeBron once. Practically made out with him after they lost to him. It was actually shocking. It was shocking because if you have Draymond on your team, it's like, what are the benefits of having Draymond on your team? Incredible defensive player, incredible competitor,

pretty good rebounder, great passer. And he seizes on whatever the mental or emotional or whatever weaknesses of the other team, like he did with the Celtics in that series where he's like, this team isn't tough enough. Fucking bully balled the Celtics that whole series. Did he try anything with LeBron or Davis that whole series? No. LeBron, I get it.

Like LeBron's his friend. They series? No. LeBron, I get it. LeBron's his friend. They have the same agent, all that stuff. LeBron's his big brother in a lot of ways. Davis is exactly the kind of guy, if you were doing a fantasy draft, that people dream about Greenwood fuck with. You'd put Davis on it. He didn't mess with him. And so he was kind of running around.

He's trying to start shit with Dennis Schroeder and Darvin Ham. It's like, go pick that. Why don't you start fighting the two guys who are kicking your ass? And I'll tell you, like, I think LeBron befriending that guy was really smart. Because, you know, down the road, you never know if you're going to play against somebody like that. And they're going against them. And Draymond wasn't doing any of the normal Draymond stuff against them. So that's one side.

And then the other side is the leadership thing. That it's pretty clear that it wasn't the same kind of leadership after that, where he was like a fiery, you know, in everybody's face, like just love the team, all about the team, all about the team. And then he punched somebody. I did think it affected them. I think it affected Poole. Poole was awesome last year. He sucked in the playoffs.

He was unplayable. So I don't know to me it's like multiple moments it's how that punch affected Draymond and Poole it's the fact that

Kamingo wanted to play and he would like something happened with Kamingo where Kerr was like I'm out he'd stop playing him completely like you needed Kamingo

in the Lakers series you needed his size and athleticism against LeBron they didn't even try him so I don't know. It just felt like an end of an era loss. And I

think these things end badly. Nobody's had, like, the Pistons in 92. They had lost to the Bulls the year before, right? And then they lose to the Knicks in round one. It's like, whoa, this is over. That was my feeling after that Lakers series.

To me, it felt like an ending, like we're now moving into a different era with them because I don't think Klay's the same guy anymore and I don't know what Draymond is at this point. Agree with all of it. I don't know anyone that ends goodly, though. Like it never, at the end, if this is truly the end, and the better bet is to say, hey, it's over, right?

Yeah, but you can't because you're, what is the payroll? You did all the math, the payroll luxury tax stuff. That's the thing with this is they have no ads. That's the point that I want to get to is that I actually think they're going to look like the same team next year. So as much as people want to go, oh, this guy should be gone or what are they going to do with Draymond? I mean, look, they're 81 million with Clay and Poole. Clay, to me, if he makes some shots, we don't care about Draymond's punch as much months and months later. I mean, the guy was 3-for-16 in the elimination game

after not hitting a shot and looking like he was out in one of the Sacramento games. Wouldn't you say Clay's a once-a-week guy like what we talked about with Harden? I don't know. He had back-to-back months during the regular season. He had the highest scoring months of his career in two of those months. So I thought, okay, at least you, even if he's not, because he's not the same guy he was defensively

when it felt like he was one of the best two-way off. That has not been the case. It's not coming back. That part's not coming back. The offense, I thought, I didn't think it was going to be, hey, every single game now, multiple games in a row, every single game is a stretch, but look at his shooting numbers. Look at the games. Look at the games where you go, he's not even

close. And then when he's not hitting his shots, it's like, what am I actually getting from him? Because it's not rebounds. It's not playmaking. It's not that elite level defense. You don't assign him to the best perimeter guys anymore because he's going to get cooked. So that to me is a bigger issue. So you wouldn't pay him $43 million?

I wouldn't want to, but he's an expiring. So what are you going to do? Go to Steph and say, hey, we're going to move on from Klay. We're going to break this up to try to reinvent it around you. Well, Klay's opting in. Klay has a player option. He's going to opt in. There was some stuff in the reporting about- I'm talking about trades. Yeah. Well, they're not going to break this up to try to reinvent it around you. Well, Klay's opting in. Klay has a player option he's going to opt in. There was some stuff in the reporting about... I'm talking about trades.

Well, they're not going to trade Klay. I don't see that happening. They're going to trade... I think they trade Poole and Kaminga, I think, would be the leading contenders. And I would still be interested in both players. I think Kerr, they tried to do something that... It's hard enough to rebuild in this league. They

tried to rebuild while they were competing for titles. Good luck. It's really hard to do. And, you know, all three lottery guys between Wiseman, Kaminga, and Moody not being even one bankable rotation guy, it really hurt them extending this. Wiseman not having another service so big because Kerr didn't want to play him. And then they don't bring in another big just to back up Looney. Because if you're looking at mapping out

potential playoff matchups, and maybe they didn't map out the Lakers part of it enough, you're like, okay, wait. Centers are a little overrated and they can get played off the floor. But do we have 20 other minutes from another center?

Are we going to ask Looney to run around the whole time or have Draymond Green defending Jokic or AD if they were to get through the second round? And you lose DDV, who is their second best guy in game six, which is a problem. Yeah, and Wiggins wasn't even close to being the same guy in game six as he was in game five, which is another thing where he's gone.

Again, he was gone. So then it's like, oh, hey, he's back and he's back for the playoffs. Let's ramp this whole thing up again. The numbers are the thing that matters here because Steph's at 52, Klay's at 43, Poole is at 29. Draymond has a player option at 27.5 million. I'm sure they want to re-sign him despite everything that's happened. If he were to opt out, does he opt out knowing he's got an extension for the same number about for three years, maybe? Wiggins is actually a valuable contract because he's pretty good. He's not great, but he's good.

He's at $25 million in the next three years. The problem is you keep adding these up. Gary Payton's $9 million. Looney's $7.5 million. Kaminga, where you'd still keep him on the books because you want the asset. DiVincenzo is going to opt out of his player's option. They are, with the repeater tax, they're 55 million over the tax. All right. But because they're through the second apron of the

triggers, their tax for next year, if they keep all of this together is 250 million, which is more than any other team's payroll. Their tax bill will be that much more. So the question I don't have the answer to is despite how bad it looked here at the end and all the different storylines, which are all valid, I'm not dismissing any of it. I'm simply asking, like, I wonder how much that wants to walk away from Curry? There's still a few years left of his prime, we would think. And does any owner, even Joe Lacob, go, hey, a 40-something win team that cost me $250 million in tax? Yeah, let's run it back. No owner ever seems to want to do something like that because no owner's ever had to before. Well, the other problem with him is he's got a lot of minority owners and the higher that that tax goes and the repeater tax and all that stuff. This isn't Matt Ishbia owning 80% of the sons.

This is a bunch of minority owners who invest in the team who look at stuff like, wait, we're going to pay $400 million and we lost in game six and round two. I, well, let me ask you this. The Lakobs call you, FaceTime, not just Joe, but the two sons,

the three of them call you. They're like, we're so glad we need your advice. What do you think we should do? If they called me, I think I would tell them to throw away next year and just reboot and get out of whatever next year looks like. Not throw, throw away is the wrong word. I would try to get off that pool contract

and I would make it very clear to Clay that if he does come back with the Warriors, there's just no way you're going to be making anything close to 43 million again. So you tell us what you want us to do because that money's not going to be making anything close to 43 million again. So you tell us what you want us to do because that money's not going to be there. And I would not pay Draymond anything higher than low 20s at this point. Because I would really, really... To me, there's some real Ben Wallace mid-late 2000s potential with him where when it goes, those intangible guys, when it goes

to them, it goes fast. And I'd be really nervous about that because there's no plan B for him if his athleticism starts going. And he's played a lot of games over the last 10 years. I would just be nervous about that. And I would think about trading Kaminga. Because what am I paying Kaminga in two years? I don't even know what he is. And he's going to be eligible for the rookie extension,

I guess like this summer, but really next summer. I don't know. The trade I would be looking for them if I was them is trying to trade Jordan Poole to a team with cap space so I can get a bunch of cap relief and maybe get a player back who's not as good, but is way cheaper. And he gets a fresh start. And by the way, if I was another team, I would be intrigued by Jordan Poole. He's a change of scenery guy to me. If it's like the Wizards or the Spurs or a team like that, the Magic.

He'd make a great Wizard. The Magic aren't touching somebody like that. You got to stop dumping everybody's problems on the magic. Well, I like to bring them up just to make sure Cerruti's paying attention. Oklahoma City's got cap space. They're not doing it. Detroit's got cap space. Cerruti says, I actually don't hate it. That was a, he just chattas that.

There's one more piece I want to mention to you from a basketball standpoint about this team. Because we saw them get overpowered by Davis and LeBron, right? During their heyday, they never really played a... Did they play a team that could do that during the whole heyday, right? Because I was thinking about

2018 when LeBron had that incredible game one. That's the best game I've ever been to with LeBron when he just overpowered them physically and then went to OT because of J.R. Smith and the Warriors ended up winning. But just in general, from 2014 on, can you remember a team overpowering them like that? And I wonder, is the league, there's more centers, there's more physicality, there's more guys who can punish you if you're undersized. And maybe that lineup that they played had a little bit of a shelf life,

especially if Draymond's athleticism is starting to fade a tiny bit. Well, in the beginning, no, because they had Bogut. And then when they didn't have him, they had the best starting five in the history of the game. Right. But who's in the league in the mid-2010s that's going to make them pay for it the same way that a team with LeBron and Davis together?

Yeah, not Tristan Thompson. Or Jokic. If they had played Denver next round, I think Denver would have done the same thing, right? They were going against Dwight Howard. They were going against whoever was on Portland, Nurkic, you know, that Clippers team in 2000, you know, the mid 2010s.

I don't, I just don't remember ever being worried about them being physically overpowered until this series. This is the first time I was like, whoa, they're not big enough, which is never something you said with the Warriors. It was always like, oh, they'll figure it out. Because everybody kept missing shots too. Like that's the other part of this math that like, I'm with you. It was always like, ah, they'll figure it out. Because everybody kept missing shots too. Like, that's the other part of this math that like, I'm with you.

It was bad. When you're big and tired, I'd rather be big and tired than small and tired. Because when you're small and tired, you don't get there. But when Klay misses all of his shots and Poole gets out there

to see how many bad fouls he can commit immediately, and Draymond doesn't look at the rim, and then Wiggins is a no-show in that last game. That's when it is going to look bad. I mean, it's a good point on the center stuff, but they were more armed. They were more armed with their side.

Not just the center stuff, the overpowering thing. Because what LeBron was doing to them, I don't really know what their answer was. It's something that Celtics couldn't do against them. But it reminded me of in the 90s Bulls, the one thing if you're going to them, I don't really know what their answer was. It's something that Celtics couldn't do against them. But it reminded me of in the nineties bulls, the one thing, if you're going to pick, if you're doing the greatest teams of all time and you're arguing, all right, how would you beat this team? What was their flaw? And we never really saw with the nineties bulls in those six years, other than Ewing was a team that could try to basically a team that was big, could try to

physically overpower them. What would that look like, right? Rick Smith was somebody that had success against him. But the two best Hakeem years, those were the years that Jordan was playing baseball or came back. And so we never kind of saw them have to deal with a Hakeem type.

So it was one of those questions we would just never have an answer for it. And the Warriors for years, it was the same kind of thing. Well, what would happen if they played this type of team? What would it look like? And we kind of found out in this Lakers series. I thought LeBron

anytime he wanted could get to the rim. Anytime. Yeah, he's good. We'll take a break and then we got to do some, what should we do now? Life and death were two very realistic coexisting possibilities in my life. I didn't even think I'd make it to like my 16th birthday, to be honest. I grew up being scared of who I was.

Any one of us at any time can be affected by mental health and addictions. Just taking that first step makes a big difference. It's the hardest step. But CAMH was there from the beginning. Everyone deserves better mental health care. To hear more stories of recovery, visit CAMH.ca. All right, what do we do now? I don't think we even came up with a solution for Golden State, but that's fine.

Phoenix, new owner syndrome just running rampant here. One of my favorite test cases in a while the KD trade a minute after you get the team firing the coach 48 hours after the embarrassing playoff loss

checking a lot of boxes I'd be really nervous if I was a Suns fan because I don't really know what the moves are that don't involve me trading Chris Paul

and basically rolling the dice on somebody like Kyrie. And I don't even know if KD would sign off on that. But the Chris Paul contract, you can buy it out for half the price and they could get out of jail free with that contract, right? So like the friends said, they could take Jordan Poole

and just like, here's a year of Chris Paul and we'll take Jordan Poole. But, it's that, or it's Aiden and people are like, Oh, the Aiden's going to get traded this summer. And my question as always is to who we always say, Oh, that guy's getting traded. We're going to make like a nine team trade of guys that we think are going to like a, basically a barrier around. There's not a lot of eight and teams out there. I went through it. I went through it again and I'm trying to talk myself into him with different teams.

And it was really hard to get there. I don't know. What did it, what did you do when you tried? Who'd you land on? If I were Dallas, I would try to do, I mean,

that starts my no Kyrie business rule. I wouldn't want to resign him. I understand why Dallas would do it because of retaining the asset, which is always kind of my default rule here. I like that you brought it up. Like we sit there and the teams lose and it's, well, what are you going to do? You're going to get rid of this guy. You're going to get rid of this guy.

You know how often we'll have trades happen where we go, I can't believe that's all we got. Be like, okay, just to be fair though, the dudes that call each other nonstop year round for months and months and months before they actually pull the trigger on something, I think the reason why a lot of trades don't happen is that you're like, that's all I can get. That's all I'm going to get from my guys. And so when the trade does happen, we'll be on the outside going, I can't believe that. They got hosed. You're like, no, that's all they could get. So when the season's end for these teams,

it's disappointing as it's been certainly for Phoenix because of the last two years, they're like, all right, is it time to move on from eight? I don't have a problem with the eight in contract. They're protecting the asset. He's not it. He's never going to get tougher. He doesn't have it. He says the right things. He seems like a super nice guy. His touches per 100 possessions went from like 82 to 70 once he started playing with paul durant and booker so now what you're doing is you're playing you're paying 30 million a year for a guy that's giving you like the eight or nine million a year center production so you have to find an eight and trade where the other team's like holy shit we're getting the number one pick

we're getting him in his prime we've got him in a contract for a few years. He's not perfect. But damn, when he played there, he was like 18 and 11. There will be another team that would be interested in doing that. This is the law of the NBA. If you look at the basketball reference, you're like, whoa, 19 and 11. I'm telling you, man. Pretty good.

I think even with eight, you'd be like, oh, get him away from Chris Paul because it can be annoying, especially when you can't catch. His role will never be important enough to justify that money. And I do think he's soft. And I don't think he's wired the right way. And I still think they'll be one of the 30 teams that can talk themselves into it a little bit. And breaking one of my cardinal rules

for trades is if I'm giving you one and you're giving me three, I'm probably losing a trade every time. Phoenix might be in the rare situation, and we can get to the Chris Paul part of this separately or maybe together with Aiton, where I'd be like, can I flip Aiton for a Clint Capella discount type? Not even Atlanta, but give me the center who's serviceable, who shows on a screen and then he can catch a lob. And then I'll work it from there because Durant and Booker are still going to have the ball most of the time. And can I fill out the rest of the roster? Normally,

I wouldn't ever want to do that. I think that's what they need to do. If that means, however, moving Paul and Aiton to Dallas for Kyrie, which Bobby Marks in his off-season preview said, and I know this isn't always hard and fast with some of these cap rules, but it could trigger a hard cap, I think, in a sign and trade for Phoenix, which makes this a little bit more complicated than people are just kind of penciling it in. On the other side of our Phoenix going, oh, cool, I get another ball handler. Again, if you were the owner and I'm the GM and you're like, hey, we got a trade for Kyrie, I'd be like, I'm resigning. I'm resigning today. Not doing it. I probably wouldn't, but it sounds cool because I'm not in

the league. I'm just a podcast. Chris Paul is 15.8 million guaranteed. It becomes fully guaranteed on June 28th. Why is that important? Because if you're a team that basically wants to press the reset button on an expensive guy or you want to package that Chris Paul together with DeAndre Ayton, now that's like basically $60 million on paper and you could make a pretty ambitious trade with that

and the other team could say, cool, not only am I going to have this contract, but I also can buy Chris Paul for $15. And I've traded $60 million of contracts for basically 45 this year. And I got eight and out of it. Like, this is, this is realistic stuff. You know, like if let's say, I don't know if they'd want to do this or not, but let's say the wizards, right? They they're just like, man, that Bradley Beal, I just can't do that contract. It makes me want to throw up in my mouth. We just got to get rid of it.

The owner just tells the GM. They don't even have a GM, but whoever their GM is, hey, item number one, just get me out of that Bradley Beal contract. Just whatever it takes. And they come back and like, well, all right, here's what we can do. I can Chris Paul and Aiden, and then we won't resign Porzingis and we'll just get out of the bill. And then we have this fixed cost. I'm not saying that will happen, but there's going to be a team that bites because they want to get out of a deal in that scenario. Again, I don't know if it'll happen. I don't know if those are their options. I don't know if it'll happen.

I don't know if those are their options. I don't know if Chris Paul is valuable as a money-saving thing or, you know, the funny thing about all this Dallas stuff, which again, I think it's a little more complicated because of, you know, if you, once you're over the tax or some of this stuff, like there's just certain shit you can't do. But Paul with Donic, actually, now at this stage of Chris Paul's life, it'd probably be a good thing. Dallas may look at it as going,

wait, this is somebody who can run the offense when Doncic isn't. He can come off the bench maybe even. Instead of prime Chris Paul, where those two guys would be looking at each other, I think it'd be a terrible pairing. I actually think Chris Paul at this stage of his life needs somebody to carry the load a little bit more I would have thought I've been great at Phoenix and get some kind of

comparable hybrid guard to play with and then run the offense at times then you get campaign who's talking shit to Christian Brown down 20 when Brown wasn't even in the play you know Brown came over late in transition although pain youne did hit a bunch of shots at the beginning of the game. They got eliminated. I have no idea what the value would be for Chris Paul at this point, knowing that the next year isn't even guaranteed.

So I don't know if he's worth it as a wave guy or if some teams would go, no, I'll still take that on. Go ahead. Charlotte goes that Charlotte doesn't win the Women Yama Lottery, right? Let's say they get Scoot Henderson. And Phoenix comes to them and says, we'll give you Chris Paul and DeAndre Ayton for

Rozier and Hayward and future first. And Hayward's been expiring. Rozier's got, I don't know, 60 million left. And if you're Charlotte, whoa, we got DeAndre Ayton in starting centers, the number one pick in the draft. Chris Paul, we'll try to convince him to stay. He can mentor Scoot Henderson or we'll tell him we'll buy him out in February or whatever. I just think that as a package, that's going to be enticing to somebody. And then the other, going back to Dallas for a second, that's the kind of move, if Dallas doesn't want to keep Kyrie, they have to get ambitious

and try to figure out how do we flip Kyrie into a couple of things that'll help us. So if they flip Kyrie and Tim Hardaway Jr. and the Bertons expiring into Chris Paul and DeAndre, and they're probably fucking excited about it. I just don't know if Phoenix

would be excited about Kyrie, but the problem with these new owners is Ishby might be like, I've played with guys like Kyrie. He'll be great. We'll get him in. Now we have Kyrie, KD, and Booker. We're going to be fucking amazing. I don't even care who's on the rest of the team. You just don't know. I don't know what he's going to think is a good idea. He's got Isaiah Thomas advising him. What if Isaiah's like, no, let's get Kyrie. I've known Kyrie forever. I can help. So the point is,

I think everything's on the table with Phoenix, except for trading those two guys, Durant Booker. First of all, I've Durant was signing off on this again. If this even works, then I I'd like be getting close to being out on Durant. Seriously.

Like the money Williams part of the Kyrie part. No, all of it. Like, I love the guy. I love his game. He's a big risk. You almost wonder if these trades could be conditional.

It's like, hey, if we don't make it out of the second round, can we have Cam Johnson back? Yeah, okay, no problem. You just have to give him back to us. Right, right. If we don't get out of the second round, we kind of want him back. Can we have that swap back?

Right. And I was wrong about Phoenix. I thought you'd just put those two guys together and then your guys three and four would be good enough and you'd figure out a way to get through it because that's what... Well, he got hurt though. Him getting hurt was the what if with that.

I don't feel like they had enough time altogether, personally. Oh, when Durant got hurt during the warmup stuff. But look, man, Durant signs the extension, then immediately wants out before the extension's even kicked in, wants all the people that gave him the extension to be fired and replaced. They don't do that. He comes back. He plays awesome basketball.

Kyrie decides he's done after that bullshit. And then you knew Durant was going to, like, it was like this weird, quiet, like, what's going on? Like, oh, Durant's not saying anything. It's like, no, actually Phoenix trade. I'm good. We're working on this Phoenix thing. The, again, I should never be surprised by any arrogance level of the best in the world to do what they do. But not only do I want out, I only want to go to Phoenix and I don't want it to turn into a bidding war. So it's like, wait, you took the extension. You wanted us all fired and now you're fucking us. And yet you only want to go to the one team where I think that impacted the pricing.

Because Brooklyn looked at it as, we might be able to get away with whatever we want here and ask for whatever we want. And then maybe with a new owner going, because it'd be hard if I just bought a basketball team saying, hey, you can have Kevin Durant. You can put him with Booker. You can put him with Chris Paul. You can put him with Chris Ball. You can put him with John Dray. It was a pretty good team last year. Yeah, the depth's going to be an issue, but that's not usually that big of a deal in the playoffs. You should be fine. I can understand why Ishby would sign off on that, so I wouldn't criticize him or any of that.

But Durant has gotten his way now a bunch of months in a row. A bunch of years in a row? Well, I'm talking specific. Going back to 2016. I'm going from the elimination last year to where they're at now.

Yeah. And I love the guy, but there's a lot there to go, hey, you got to deliver on this. Because the problem

that Durant's staring with, and he can say none of it matters, is that if this is all it is for him as far as the winning thing, he's going to be, it's better than being Barkley, right?

It's better than being Barkley. Yeah, because at least he was on a title team. But it's going to be the history of like, yeah, he got his rings, but whatever. And those guys can all say none of this matters. I think deep down, it's the only thing that matters. I think it's the only thing that really matters in the world that they're constantly engaged in because I think that's why they pull some of the stuff

they pull. So he got his way again. And you know, I look watching that. I don't look at the shooting numbers against Denver and go, Hey, he sucked. Let's beat up on Kevin Durant.

He's not that good. And all the, the reset resetting that we do with dudes. Point guard was campaign. The center was the Andrere Aydin. I'm not defending KD because I don't like anything about his last year. It's a shitty last year.

Don't sign the extension and then try to get out of there. I don't like when people do that. But I agree with you on the Phoenix thing too. Let's do this. Let's do this. Let's do this quietly. Phoenix is where I want to go.

But then Phoenix has to trade basically every asset they have except Booker. To me, Aiton had to be in that trade if you're doing the KD thing. And I got to keep one of the wings. The more I look at that and think about it. My guess is Aiton, did you do all your ring around the Rosie trade guys? I did. How many did you have? So I asked Priscilla before the pod, Aiden, Jordan, Poole, there are all these dudes that

kind of around the same price range who seem like they might be available and could, is there like an 18 trade potential where just everybody kind of moves teams like ring around the Rosie? So who are your guys? Julius Randall. and could, is there like an 18 trade potential where just everybody kind of moves teams like ring around the Mersey? So who are your guys? Julius Randall. John Collins. Who's been, I mean,

he's, they already given him a fucking jacket. When you go on the trade machine, his picture should just be on the trade machine staring at you. It starts with him

in the Atlanta Hawks, not alphabetically. They just go, okay, get to work. Here he is. Click on Collins. That was really good. Thanks. I would put...

Jordan Poole? Jordan Poole is in there. I don't think... Well, Aiton's in there. I thought we already covered that. I don't think Carl Anthony Towns is in this group. I don't. Agree.

I think Minnesota's going to try to figure it out with this group, and then they'll reassess. I'd be shocked if they didn't come back and look pretty similar and go, all right, let's see now. We've got a year under our belts. It looks like Edwards is taking that step. Towns is more likely to be healthy this year than missing all the time he did last year.

Let's see what it looks like with the full group with the full season. So I think Towns gets mentioned a lot, but I don't think he should be mentioned in this because I think that would be putting him in a more dramatic category than he actually is. I have a couple of merry-go-round questions. Kuzma, good enough to be in the merry-go-round?

Yeah. As a sign-in trade? Okay. I think Kuz-in trade? Okay. I think Kuzma's good. I do. I think he's good. So Phoenix traded... Congrats to that man.

If Phoenix traded DeAndre Ayton for Kyle Kuzma, or how about if they traded... If it was a three-teamer where it's like Kuzma and Peel and Anthony Peeler? Poole. Kuzma, Poole. We're past two hours.

I'm starting to get groggy. Kuzma, Poole, Aiton. That threesome. And just guys, they're just shifting teams. Everybody's just happy they're getting traded. Kuzma ends up on the Warriors.

Poole goes to Phoenix. And Ayton goes to Washington. I don't know. I'm just like that. I feel like we're going to have a trade like that. I feel like we're going to have a three or 14 merry-go-round trade where guys are just moving like on the trade machine, but it's actually going to happen.

Okay. So give me your nine guys for the nine teamer. Let's come up with this list, then I'm going to ask you a follow-up. Can you read your guys again? You had Randall. Aiton, Julius, John Collins. Kuzma. Kyrie.

I feel like Kyrie's in his own unpredictable thing. We should probably put Miles Turner in there. It seems like Indiana likes Miles now. I don't know if Miles... I don't think he's available. Let's take him out. Let's take him out. He was in it for a while. Kuzma,

Poole... That's six. Do we put RJ in there? Is Zach Levine too good? No, he isn't. Okay, throw him in. There's seven. Put him in there. Levine would be

like if you haven't watched him new fan base you're gonna be like holy shit this guy's amazing he had 51 the other night this is fun

yeah like why is why is he so pissed at the other guy for shooting tonight what happened what happened does he always raise his hand

when the other guy is dribbling? Do we put R.J. Barrett in there? I think R.J. Barrett and Randall both have to be in. I think that's fair. Because I think R.J. is the easy move if the Knicks could

load up. Imagine if the Knicks maybe throughout all of this, the Knicks are actually up. Imagine if the Knicks maybe throughout all of this, the Knicks are actually positioned. Because I still think you should look at the Knicks going, hey, one, ten more games, you have a real dude that is beyond anyone's wildest expectations in Jalen Brunson. Randall is a real issue, but it looks like they've been

drafting well. They have some contract extension decisions to make. There's a lot of that going on there, but I think the problem is Milwaukee losing started getting Knicks fans to think some crazy shit. Like, hey, are we actually really good and we could win the East? I still think as dominant as they were against Cleveland, which surprised me that was that dominant, I think it was just as disappointing as Miami. I would go, hey, give it a week, step back and go, some good things really happened here for this Knicks team

and not getting the Eastern Conference Finals shouldn't be seen as some massive failure despite thinking that they had more talent than Miami. All right, so can I throw two more wild cards in? Yeah, why don't you keep going? Can we include Anthony Simons? I like it. I like what you're doing right now.

Because if Portland keeps Dame then you talk yourselves into uh Dame and Simons together I don't know maybe he shouldn't be included but I'm just thinking of guys in that 25 to 30 range look it's not an indictment on Simons but it's a really good

question because if Dame were to stay it's a team construction question let's be small at guard. Like, okay, let's move out CJ. Be like, what do you guys want to do?

Let's get even smaller at guard. Right. Exactly. Right. That's why I'm asking. Um, is there a new Orleans? Anyone,

anyone you would throw in there? I guess the salaries don't work, but Zion probably isn't eligible. Zion's like in a completely different category of potential. Paul George is too overqualified for this category too, right? Yeah. Okay.

Who's the best player out of this group? The best asset out of all those guys is RJ Barrett, in my opinion. I still like RJ Barrett. I'm not going to get psyched out because Spoh and the Heat kind of broke him over a six-game series when he's on a pretty weird team

and Brunson was playing out of his mind. I'm not ready to give up on him. I don't know if Tibbs is the easiest guy to have as a coach, if you're RJ Barrett, either. I have one more wildcard guy for you. I think some people would say Levine real quick, but that contract gets so gross. Oh, I forgot Levine was in there.

You're right. Levine's the best guy in that. But that's, so if, if, if Chicago offered Zach Levine for RJ Barrett, who would turn that down? Probably Chicago.

Levine's only 22. Can we talk about... I'm kidding, but he's still so young. He's like 28, right? Yeah, I know. Gosh. He makes less money than these guys, but would you put Jalen Green in this?

I only ask because like two weeks ago, Jake Fisher reported that Houston was, everything was on the table for them, including Jalen Green. And the thing with them is they could take back a more expensive guy and Jalen Green would be cheaper. I would say out of the young guys they have, he would probably be, let's say they got the second pick in the draft and got Scoot Henderson. And they're like, oh, we'll turn Jalen Green into

a forward and we're ready to go. I don't know. I'm just talking it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No one ever trades those guys. They just don't. That's when we were kids where people would be like, all right, lottery pick, we're going to move on. That's what made the Halliburton trade so crazy because that was so rare to even see a guy get traded like that.

It just feels like Houston's going to do something weird this summer, depending on how the lottery goes on Tuesday. Do you want Harden to stay in Philly, or do you want him to go to Houston? You, personal, out loud. First thing that comes to your mind. Well, as a Celtic fan, I hope he stays in Philly.

Because I just think that contract gets worse every year. It's the meanest possible answer. It's $40 million a year. What are you going to do? He's going to be worse next year and the year after than gets worse every year. It's the meanest possible answer. It's $40 million a year. What are you going to do? He's going to be worse next year and the year after than he was this year. Houston's got to spend it on somebody. They have like $60 million.

It's pretty grim for agency. Yeah, I know. It's bad and they have cap space. That goes back to the Jordan Poole thing where if the Warriors really want relief, they could probably trade him and they don't even have to get that much back. Just more to unload the salary and then all the luxury tax stuff that comes with it. You could argue that's like, it's why they traded Wiseman because they knew Wiseman next year was going to be

so much money with the tax. They kind of had to get rid of them. So if they feel like this pool thing, they're keeping dream on and they feel like maybe there's something that's sustainable. I don't know. We didn't talk about the Knicks. Who are your keepers on the Knicks before we go? I still like RJ.

I'm a little worried about it. You know, they really needed him in some spots to provide some of the, Hey, just bail us out of some of these possessions when the other guys are not here. And that didn't happen. The quickly end was disappointing. Grimes looked scared at times.

Hart also looked like he didn't want to shoot. He's a free agent. So I'd be curious what that price would be if it's in the $18 million range of people projecting. But overall, like I just said, you should feel really good about it. But watching Julius Randle, because I got so annoyed with game,

I think it was game four. I was home. you should feel really good about it. But watching Julius Randall, because I got so annoyed with game, I think it was game four. I was home and I just, the game put me in a bad mood. I don't know. It doesn't happen very often, but I was like, I'm so sick of watching these guys right now. So then the next game, and it's an exercise, I decided I'm only going to watch Randall for the first quarter. I go, I'm only watching Randall. So like I would lose track of what the score was. And it was so bad, Bill. I spent the next two plus hours only watching Randall. And it was so bad. It was so impossibly bad. And then I couldn't stop watching him in the elimination game too. I would have him on my do not touch list of like less than 10 players in the league where I would go, I don't, I don't really know that I want this guy around. Uh, if that's where he's that you're, I don't really know that I want this guy around.

If that's where he's at. I don't know. What did the body language doctor say? It's almost like sends him into a seizure. Dropped him as a client? Just can't handle it. It's really tough. Really tough watch.

Pool in game four and game six. And I actually felt bad for pool. That's how bad the body language was. I was like, oh my God, I hope this guy's going to be alright. I think I wrote down, should he shave his mustache? And I don't even know that that's the right answer. I was just, again, just workshopping. You should just publish

your notes during games like a coffee table book at the end of the year. To me, you can dump Randall on a team like Charlotte. How long is Charlotte just going to go 22 and 60? Let's say they get Wambadyama. They could start making some moves pretty fast to do something. But if I'm the Knicks and I could turn Randall into Hayward's expiring

or Chris Paul, I can get him for a year and then buy him out, whatever. That's how I'd be thinking of Randall. I think it's that bad. I'm with you. He kind of felt like it was the Knicks were his team, and it's so clearly Brunson's team. He's losing any popularity contest with Brunson for the rest of the time he's on the Knicks. That's a hard thing to deal with. When you were the guy and now you're not.

I regret voting him. I don't forget. I have to go back and look at my all NBA votes. But I think I had him because I was like, you know what? But you had some PVSD? Big time. Because I don't want to reward somebody who only cares about having the basketball. He doesn't care about any of the other stuff. I was thinking about the alternate universe where I told everyone to fuck off and voted for Jokic again.

Like, what a fucking victory laugh today would have been. At least you had him on the ballot. Jokic ripping through. Do you believe that story? Mark Jackson. So Mark Jackson left Jokic off of his MVP ballot entirely. There's five slots for it he left him off he went on

his explanation made perfect sense except for we both filled out the ballot and I don't know how you would get there with the center

two guards two forwards unless you were just like zipping through it at warp speed not thinking it's because it's pretty complicated

to fill out it's like pages you click to the next page and there's instructions and yeah because it's pretty complicated to fill out. It's like pages. You click to the next page, and there's instructions. Look, I'm telling you right now, I've only had a vote two years, and I'm always worried the first time you hear about, like, did you hear the one person who left this guy off? I go right back to double check because we're voting on like... Make sure you didn't fuck up.

Right. You're voting on 60-plus things. It is completely feasible to fuck something up or like, because we're voting on like- Make sure you didn't fuck up. Right. You're voting on 60 plus things. It is completely feasible to fuck something up or like, oh, all rookie. I can't believe I forgot a guy or I can't. So I double, triple check it. I had Cerruti double check my ballot this year to be like, does anything look insane to you?

And then I give it a little time and I'm like, hey, and then I have my own list of stuff. Think that was a highlight or a low light for Cerruti this year in 2023? Low light. Low light, okay. Yeah, because I have my own list of stuff. Do you think that was a highlight or a low light for Serenity this year in 2023? Low light. Low light, okay. Yeah, because all the front stuff was last year. Having said that, I can totally get why somebody would make a mistake.

I'm just not sure. I'm not sure. I mean, do you think Mark Jackson just decided to not vote Jokic top five? Like, even if you hated his guts. I think it's 50-50. Wilbon had Jokic fourth last year. And I was like, dude. I think it's 50-50 because I also think it's possible he forgot the votes were public.

So it's like door A is he, for some reason, he's rushing through it and he thought there are positions and he just fucked up. Door B is he's like, I fucked this guy and didn't there were positions and he just fucked up. Door B is, he's like, I have fucked this guy and didn't vote for him and then forgot it wasn't public. I think that's very conceivable. People have been making mistakes. Like Jalen had Kyrie all NBA last year and then straight up was on the show.

It was like, I screwed up as someone who's done it two years. I can completely understand just whiffing on something. Especially if you're rushing through it. Yeah. If you're spending 10 minutes on it, you might make a mistake. So I don't know. I don't know what to believe.

But it's just insane. But it speaks to this Jokic thing of he's been this good for three years. And to me, it's inconceivable anyone would fill out an MVP ballot and not be like, wait a second. Cause it's number you're numbering at one, two, three, four, five. There's no positions. Are you, am I hearing you say you wish you had voted Jokic MVP now? No, because I, I arrived at the right. I do have some PVSD. I'm not going to lie. Watching Jokic. I've had a couple nights where I'm like... My thing was, I couldn't get over the three in a row

really fucked with me, and I thought Embiid had done enough, and it was like, you know what? Over the course of three years, if this is 2-1, that feels okay. But I really did feel like Jokic was the most impactful player this year, and I felt that way the last two years, too. Yeah, look, that's not the award. That's not the award. He was going to look better in the

playoffs. Um, you know, Jokic cares less than anybody does about this. And more times than not, I think it's bullshit with him. I believe it. And he didn't care about the award at the end of the season. They started losing games. They started looking bad. He didn't play defense for six weeks at the end. Right. So it was hard to vote for him. He's the reason they lost it or if you were going to vote for him and then people that voted for him, I still like that was the thing that was so maddening about all the arguments. It's like this guy's really

really good and it is like hard decision and as an Embiid voter I was like, okay, I think this is the way I'm going because I think end to end he cared the most. Yeah. I don't mean care about the award the most, which he did, but he closed so strong.

He was so good at the end and he was hitting all these big shots and all this different stuff, but at no point did I think he was the better player. I don't know. I mean, that's not what the award is. The only thing I didn't like about it was people making defense that

impactful with the decision. Because I think from what I saw from Philly, you could beat them down floor. They didn't always run back on defense. And I think that should matter. And I did feel like you could pull and beat away from the basket and do the stuff like we saw today. I just didn't feel like he was like Dikembe Mutombo in the nineties, which some people were trying to make that argument and there were stats you could use in your favor, but the fact that you could run on

that team for two-thirds of the season really whenever you wanted. I don't know. I felt like that should hang on him a little bit. I don't feel to have too many regrets on it, though. Do you feel like people would have been chill if you left Embiid off your ballot? You're like, ah, I fucked up. I think Perk might have mentioned it.

I think it would have been an issue. I did like that Mark Jackson immediately fell on the sword though. He went on Terminator and he explained it. He even made a joke about it tonight on the broadcast, which was a good joke. We got the lottery on Tuesday. I'm doing a lottery show, by the know. He even made a joke about it tonight on the broadcast, which was a good joke. Alright, so we got the lottery on Tuesday.

I'm doing a lottery show, by the way. You're doing your next podcast Tuesday morning. So I'm doing lottery. If you're bored, you want to pop on after the lottery, tell me. The next podcast I'm doing, the succession one's up. I got Rewatchables Monday doing Trading Places, and then

I will be on after the lottery talking about that and the round three. Russillo, good to see you as always. This was produced by Kerm, Jonathan Kerma, and Steve Cerruti, who is signed off on Jordan Poole, Chris Paul, and DeAndre Ayton during the podcast. So congrats to him.

Did you make a great magic? Chris Paul and the magic? Now we're cooking. Chris Paul and and DeAndre Ayton during the podcast. So congrats to him. Did you make a great magic? Chris Paul and the magic? Now we're cooking. Chris Paul and the magic, Cerruti? Sounds great. All right, we're going to go. I don't have feelings within. On the wayside, I'm a person never lost. I don't have feelings within.