The Bill Simmons Podcast - Part 2: Our Favorite NBA Free Agency Moves, Plus the Biggest Mistakes, and the ESPN Layoffs With Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: July 3, 2023

In Part 2 of a two-part podcast, The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined again by Ryen Russillo to break down the early stages of NBA free agency, including which teams made positive moves and which teams left them confused, such as the Lakers, Rockets, Bucks, and more (0:53). Then, they close it out with their thoughts on Jeff Van Gundy, Jalen Rose, and the ESPN layoffs (1:11:40). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producers: Kyle Crichton and Steve Ceruti Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Win 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. You know me, I can't go a day without sports. I really can't. And now Monday nights

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one and it's going up on Monday night. Stay tuned for that. If you missed part one, it's on the same feed. You're listening to this podcast. This is part two. We taped it a few hours before it's going up. So if anything happens, don't hold it against us. Ryan, we're still coming up. Pearl Jam is next. All right, it's time for part two of the Sunday Extravaganza on July 4th weekend. We're taping this part. It's a little before five o'clock on Sunday Pacific time. Rosillo, I don't want to do winners and losers.

I feel like let's go a level above. I'll give you two choices. We could go road A, favorite weekend outcomes, or we could go road B, dumbest strategies of the weekend. Because I'm not willing to call anyone a loser because who knows how it's going to play out, but just strategies that made us go, wait a second, what's going on here?

So you go. You want to go happy or you want to go a little darker? Let's start happy. Okay. I got to say, I thought the Lakers were the second best team in the West and maybe the second best team in the whole league at the end of last season.

And I thought they got better. And I was really impressed by what they did. They kept Reeves on an awesome contract. Nobody made a run at trying to bump them up, put them in a bad position. They get him at four for 56. They get Gabe Vincent from Miami, who's like out of a lab to be the perfect LeBron guard off the ball. They got Rui back on a price that's a little high, but it's tradable, three for 51. They got D'Lo back on, it just seems like a trade

machine contract. It's two for 37. First year is like 18. They got Torian Prince, who I fucking love. I've loved that guy for like five years. They got him for one for four and a half million. I'm not a Jackson Hayes fan, but they have a playoff eight right now. AD, LeBron, Reeves, Vincent, Vanderbilt, Rui, D'Lo, and Prince. That I think is as good as anybody

in the West except for Denver. Yeah, I mean, there's a couple I don't like, but the Reeves deal's a no-brainer. They're really smart in using basically the full mid-level for Gabe and just playing the game the right way. The biannual for Torian Prince at four and a half's a no-brainer, keeping Vanderbilt around. You like him?

Who, Torian? Yeah, look at the shooting numbers. And he's long. It gives them, I think, you know, one of their problems last year is they felt like, do we have enough wing defenders here that match up with guys? And they really didn't. And, you know, Russell's not a defensive player. Schroeder, I think, works his ass off, you know, so I respect it.

But I also don't think it's necessarily a strength for him. He was a little too involved last year, even though I thought he was more of an asset to liability. The thing I love about Prince, it's very similar to Bruce Brown last year in the Nuggets. I just think he's not going to be afraid in big games. You can throw that dude out basically anywhere and he's fine. And I've been kind of waiting

for him to be on the right team. I was hoping it was going to be the Celtics. I really like that. I'm surprised he wasn't worth more in the market. Yeah. He just wanted to be in LA. The Vanderbilt monies, they had the bird rights on him.

They just did a really good job of combining the exceptions with the bird rights. I think Rui at $17 million, and that's a full 51 for him, is high for a guy that- You think? Yeah. But it was the same thing that we talked about a week ago

with D'Angelo Russell we were arguing about the price and right well it still ended up being a little bit lower than I thought it was going to be but it just it felt like they weren't going to lose the asset for something else and then they were going to have to pay Russell probably a little bit more knowing hey if our guy re-does the deal here like we already know what's going to happen but again what does he care and he's coming off a playoff run where it looked like he was unplayable and he still finds a way to make almost 40 million dollars because he's basically yeah he's a human trade chip he's kind of like it's it's almost like the the car well costco's not a good call it's like the general version of uh of kairi where it's like you still have to pay D'Angelo Russell a certain

amount of money. I know we're going to talk about the Kyrie stuff a little bit later on, but it's similar. It's like, yeah, but you still have to pay this kind of guy that much, even though I know you're going to push back on that when we get to Dallas as part of this. But yeah, the Lakers were terrific. They have a bunch of different options, but this also allows them to have a couple pieces here or there because even though I'm not going to say you're wrong about them being the second best in the West, second best maybe in the overall league, I don't look at this group and then go,

okay, well, that's your two seed in the West. Well, the X factor will be the health of those two guys, which was the X factor anyway. But if they can time those guys from a health standpoint in March, April, May, June, I think they're going to be in really good shape. And I think they're going to trade D'Lo for something. It does.

I look at this and I, you know, LeBron year 21. This is going to be his best chance probably until he goes and ring chases with whoever after the season. But I just keep staring at Davis. Like I wrote down all the guys on the team and I had AD first because I think he's the best player on the team. LeBron is one of the great players of all time, but AD's in his prime.

This is an unbelievable team for him to be on, but he's going to have to play center, which we've never, you know, he's always kind of resisted, pushed against it. But he did. I mean, he played. He played in the playoffs and he did it. Right.

He played it when they won, even though they had the big options years ago. But to me, I'm just looking at it like, what kind of career do you want to have Anthony Davis? And you and I, we've talked about him a million times. This is set up for him to be like a potential MVP, to be a one seed, to be like the guy in Los Angeles. He's got to have to embrace being the center. And really the only guy in the conference that is going to be a problem for him is Jokic, who's a problem for everybody. But I just look at him like, to me, he's a guy to watch for October now, because you're never going to be, he wanted to go to LA to be in the Lakers, to play with LeBron and to be on a really good team and a winning franchise

he's never going to be a better situation than what we just laid out they have everything but they need him to play 35 minutes a game the rest of the West they're good and they killed it although I do think it's kind of funny that they'll have Cam Reddish to replace the Mo Bamba Hope role

I didn't even mention him as you noticed right but it'll just be like yeah man this guy's a kind of funny that they'll have Cam Reddish to replace the Mo Bamba Hope role. I didn't even mention him, as you noticed. Right. But it'll just be like, yeah, man, this guy's a crazy athlete. He'll have a night running around one time. It's kind of like the Bamba stuff, honestly. It just reminded me of that. But I'm not being fair. So I'm going to stop.

It's a win. It's one of the best off-seasons a team could have, considering the restrictions and the amount of money they had in the two guys. And knowing that there wasn't that big third fish out there for them. But it's, I can't tell if it's like the beginning of what the next thing is because there's certainly like, if they ended up a five or six seat,

I don't know that I'd be shocked either. Would you? No. Cause LeBron might play 42 games. Well, 40 would be low. And Davis might play 51. I have no idea.

The Suns, I wasn't crazy about what they did until they landed Eric Gordon today. And now I'm putting that in my favorite weekend outcome. I still haven't seen what the exact price is, but that's a guy who can play crunch time for them. Gordon? Yeah, they can play Booker and Gordon and Durant and Aiton and Beal and be really hard to guard in crunch time.

It's two years, six and a half million with a player option. That's a joke. That's such a good deal. Why do you think he, do you think he just really wants, I mean, I'm sure his whole career, he's been dying to get back to where he got to in that one Houston season. And he's been on a lot of shitty teams over the years and a lot of bad situations. I've always liked that guy. And, uh,

I don't know. I just was really impressed by that one. Watanabe. I like to, I love whatever you don't like what Phoenix did. Like, I think they had 162 million right at the tax line with the rant deal Booker.

I did like it. That's why I put it in favorite weekend outcomes. I liked it. I mean, as creative as LA was with the tools of their dispersal, what Phoenix did here where like Metu's actually okay at 25 and he's a veteran minimum at two and a half. Bates Diop, if you look at his shooting splits last year, was actually pretty incredible. You know, I'm not telling he's going to be closing the playoff run here. The Gordon number, Watanabe already covered,

keeping Okoge around, who actually shot it better last year than he ever had before, although he's always kind of a negative on the box score, plus minus offensively out there. With those four guys and a couple options here, and I think Vogel will probably, you know, I just felt like Monty was just searching and chasing, and it was that part where, like, these aren't adjustments. This is kind of desperation a little bit more.

And a full, look, a full season with this, to be fair to Monty, where it was kind of at the last minute. Hey, Durant's back now, and all the other pieces are gone. But considering how tight it was for them and trying to figure out the rest of it i think phoenix did as probably as good a job as you could just having multiple options for guys that are actually these dudes have been in rotations before for other teams both of us like me too met too i do too yeah met met too met too yeah of us like him. Here's my concern with Phoenix

and why I thought they did about as well as they could have done with the restrictions they had. I still think defense matters and I still value when we get to May and especially June getting stops. And the team they currently have right now, I just don't think is going to get stops.

So they're going to have to be incredible offensively. But we learn every year in the playoffs, it's like the defense is what wins. If you're actually trying to win the title, the defense is what wins the title. You can have your lead guy, you can have your scoring, all that stuff. But ultimately it comes down to, can you get stops?

Denver in that Lakers series, which was way closer than people remember, but they got stops down the stretch against that Lakers team. That last play of the game went for the sweep. LeBron going to the basket, they got to stop. They had Gordon that they could throw on different people. And I just don't think they have win a title that way. I'm just saying you're bucking history year after year after year with the defense part of this whole thing. And maybe they can address in February. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, they still have the Aiton chip, but I think the best case scenario is that Aiton

looks a little bit like the guy from two years ago. And honestly, it can be worse. You know, the Monty disconnect with Aiton, just by having it not be Monte Williams, is going to improve Aiton's vibe towards the team. But look, to this point, he's been disappointing. He's not the guy we all thought he could be. It looked like maybe that was going to happen a couple years ago,

but instead of just dumping him and doing the three guys for the one thing where usually you always lose that trade, which I thought might be their only option. Like when you go through every piece that they added here for these veteran minimums, like most of these guys have played in rotations and it's not just veteran minimum of like,

oh, that guy's still in the league. Like you can go through. Wadanabe clearly was a KD recommendation because he played with them. And he had a nice little stretch before the KD trade with them. Nice little stretch. He made everything.

He made everything for like two months. I'm going to give you a little who says no to really bump your energy up right now. Uh-oh. Why is it waning?

No. I just think you'll be excited about this. And I don't know what the answer is for who says no. Indiana calls Phoenix and says,

Miles Turner and McConnell for Aiton. We need to know in two hours. I think they should both say yes. That's how I feel. I really like that trade for both sides. Indiana, as we're about to cover, is another favorite weekend outcome for me. But I was thinking they have a lot of players.

They have Halliburton. They have Nembhard, who I think we both really liked last year. And they can kind of afford to trade McConnell. And if I can turn Turner and McConnell into Aiton, I think Aiton's a better player than Turner. I'm admittedly on the Aiton side of things, and there's not a lot of us,

but I still feel like he's a real asset. And I respect what he's done, and I still feel like he's a real asset and I respect what he's done. And I think he's kind of underrated now as an asset. Um, and I liked that trade for Phoenix cause I'm getting two guys and Turner's give me a lot of what I was going to get from Aiden anyway. And I get a real backup point guard and I'm probably just better. Yeah. I just feel bad for Chris Paul. I'd be like, oh, now you get McConnell? Thanks. Let's talk Pacers.

Wow. Our guy Bruce Brown got the two for 45 with the player option year two. They also re-signed Hal Burton to a huge extension

and they have a nice little nucleus now. They got Obi Toppin, which we mentioned in part one. They could throw out Hal Burton and Heald and Bruce Brown and Toppin and Miles Turner and Walker, their first-round pick. Matherin, Nembhardt, McConnell, Jalen Smith.

That's a lot of talent for a team that we don't even know if they're going to make the playoffs or not. But man, I just listed 10, McConnell, Jalen Smith. That's a lot of talent for a team that we don't even know if they're going to make the playoffs or not. But man, I just listed 10 guys who are like legitimate NBA players. The deal for Bruce Brown's two years, $45 million. It's a team option on the second half. So you're paying Bruce Brown essentially $22 million this year. $22 million for Bruce Brown, as much as we all love him,

but away from Jokic is too much money. I think I agree, but we saw this over and over again. The tax we usually used to joke was like a 25% tax for the teams to get guys to come to their city when it maybe wasn't the most desirable location.

It seemed like this year was like a 50% tax. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah. You know what it reminds me of? Van Vliet for three for 130 for Van Vliet. Is he a three for 90 guy? So they paid him an extra 40 million. Right.

Should he make more than, I like Fred Van Vliet. I get it. But should he make more than $30 million a year? I'm just asking the question. It's a lot of money for Fred VanVleet. It's a ton, but you're right. It speaks to the tax. The tax of, you know, sometimes it used to just be the free agent tax.

Be like, oh, I think this guy will get 100. And be like, oh, just make it 120. But the, do you want to go to this team? It's a 50% tax now. Right. And especially when you knew that like the point for Bruce Brown was $12 million. The fact that it's only one year, that's really all this commitment is. Because I just don't think as much as I like his game and all that stuff, $20 million for that guy away from Jokic, he's

going to be a different guy. And it reminds me a lot of the Jabari Parker deal that he did with Chicago, where Chicago had the cap space, but they didn't want to extend it out because they want to be able to reset it again. And they go, look, this is how we'll do it. We'll do one year. And then I don't know if there was an option, but they never picked it up. It was one year and 20 million for Jabari Parker. And it was an absurd single annual salary just because the deal was so short. So in this version, I still like Bruce Brown better than what I liked from Jabari back then, but that's what the deal reminded me of. Would you like it if it was one for 15?

Yeah, I wouldn't even think about it. I just think north of 20 for Bruce Brown is a lot of money. What are they going to spend it on? They're Indiana. What do they care? They had to get him. I'll ask you this. Let me have you think about it this way.

Will you enjoy watching this team on league pass? Because of Bruce Brown? No, no. Have you team on league pass? Because of Bruce Brown? Have you ever turned on a game because of Bruce Brown? I'm saying the 10 guys they put together. I kind of like the team. Well, I love Matherin. This would be a league pass team for me. Halliburton's my guy. Buddy healed in a contract year. I can't wait to see

if Toppin was one of those. I have Knicks fans in my life who are like, Tibbs fucked up this Toppin was one of those. I have Knicks fans in my life who are like, Tibbs fucked up this Toppin thing. He's going to go to another team and he's going to be really good. And they made this trade

because as usual, Tibbs couldn't figure out somebody at all and he's going to come back to haunt us. I have people in my life who are passionate and convinced that he's going to fuck them over when he goes to another team and everyone's going to fuck them over when he goes to another team and everyone's going to feel stupid.

Toppin's best stuff, I felt like, was when he got to play the big in a small lineup. Yeah. So will they do that? If they do that, then I think you're unlocking something that's kind of fun. But just straight his skills, I don't think all of a sudden Knicks fans

have to worry about all-star Obi Toppin. I don't like losing an asset for literally nothing unless there's a plan down the road. Just trading Obi Toppin for two second round picks to me is fundamentally dumb unless you're doing it because it's leading to this.

So we'll see what the this is. But I just don't like giving guys away. But these moves don't all happen. Even the Houston thing with KJ Martin, you're like, what? Then it's like, okay, yeah, but you've been drafting all these other players. You've got to find a minutes and then you just spend all this money in free agency.

You don't get to always keep something for something. You don't always get to do it. For the Knicks, the Josh Hart thing worked out really well because he played ball with them, knowing that if he didn't opt out, that they could then figure out a way to get DiVincenzo, who I really like for them.

He's so in over guy. Right. I think that's been brought up. KJ Martin. I had the Clippers on my favorite weekend outcomes list only because I just like that they got K.J. Martin basically for nothing. And they brought Westbrook back at a really cheap price. And now they have two more assets on their team. And I think if you're them, you have to look at the big picture. You have to fill in the 25 games

Kawhi's not going to play and the 27 games Paul George isn't going to play, and have enough people who can come in and actually create offense so you're not the nine seed again. Yeah, for Westbrook at 3.8 million, there's never been a better... He hasn't been in this good of a setup in a while since Oklahoma City. Well, no, Washington. That's not fair because he at least made them competitive when he and Dio were there. He's like the guy at the comedy store.

Who's like, yeah, you're only going to get 10 minutes, but if Aziza Ansari doesn't show up, can you do 40? And he's like, yeah, I'm ready for either.

Can you actually do an hour? Actually, we're going to need a headline tonight. Bill Burr just canceled his, uh, his limo from the plane. It got, it broke down.

So you're gonna have to actually do an hour 20. Can you do that? Yeah, I can do it. That's Westbrook. He's just like breaking case of emergency. Hey, can you put up like 20, 12, and 15 tonight for us?

Because Guantanamo, Georgia, I'm playing. I'd love to. Sounds great. Here are 24 shots tonight. You want them? I'd love them. Thank you. Yeah, because if everybody's healthy as much as we're sitting here being like, man, KJ Martin, great move. He might not play. Terrence Mann barely played and he's good.

He's playing like 20 minutes a game for them. As everyone in my section went nuts. So the question now is can they add Brogdon to this? Can they turn like two, three pieces into Brogdon or James Harden, something like that? Or do they not need to do anything? We will see. I think there's a real healthy appetite on the Clippers behind the scenes side of things

to not bring back last year's team. So I'll be interested to see what happens. I don't think they're like super psyched to have another Marcus Morris in a contract year. Upset that Ty Lue doesn't understand that he should be playing 30 minutes a game. They just have too many veterans and too much

depth and they just have to hash it out somehow. And that's where we get to the Kawhi part. Yeah, but what are their options? They need to make a three-for-one. No, they need to make a three-for-one. No, they need to make a three-for-one, and they need to really put the training wheels on

the first two months of the season and decide, do we want to break this up now if it's not working or wait until after the year? So are you saying take the training wheels off, like go into it at the start of the season, like let's go one more run? Because I didn't know if you meant moving on from either Paul George or Kawhi, which is not what

I think you're saying. They're not going to be able to trade Kawhi, but they'll be able to trade Paul George. I think this is a very, very wait and see, be ready for anything Clipper season ahead of us. Their worst case scenario is another disappointing whatever and they lose in round one and And it's like,

Hey, here's our new arena. We've spent $6 billion on it. Does anyone want to come? Kawhi might play tonight. Want to drive to Englewood? You never know what you'll see. 70% chance Kawhi plays today.

Come on down. Um, the Nets, Cam Johnson, four for 108. I have them in the winners. Then the last one I had was the, uh, I just like where the Wizards ended up, where they turned Beal and Porzingis and

Monty Morris into Poole and Tyus Jones and Shamit, who's tradable. Patrick Baldwin, Gallo, who's tradable. They got a bunch of pick swaps. They had enough money to spend for Kuzma. And more importantly, now they're worse and they're a lottery team and they're positioned now for one more top five pick. I would just rather have the team they have now than the team they had two months ago. So I'm going to put them in the winners column. Thoughts on that? I'd add Sacramento.

Stability? Yeah. Because you thought, oh wait, is this being Harrison Barnes? You're like, you know what? He's not great. He's not perfect. But he's still pretty good. He's young enough. It's on a good number. They extend out Sabonis. That was smart.

The Trey Lyles piece of it as well. What about Vizenkov? Do you have any Vizenkov thoughts? No. Post-draft, I stay away from the... I'll get into it a little bit later, but I don't have much for you. You didn't go on YouTube and dive in on Sasha Vizinkov? I don't like watching YouTube clips of guys. Euro MVP?

No, because the YouTube stuff, I mean, they'd have me looking like I was a second-round pick in my 20s. You put a little Aerosmith underneath it, stuck in an elevator. Love an elevator. We should do that. We should tape like four months of your pickup

games and then do an NBA draft combine video of it. This one guy was trying to get me to like talk up a dude that was never ever going to be drafted. He was like, you got it. I was like, what do you think is going to happen? I'm going to mention the guy's name on a podcast and the Thunder

are going to go, hmm. Was it Drew Hanlon? No, I don't think we talk a ton lately. Let's take a break. And then the part that I really care about, the dumbest strategies of the weekend is next. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer.

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Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. Okay. You have the floor. The Houston Rockets. 3 for 130 for Fred Van Vliet. Could talk myself into that because, you know, leader, great guy.

Everybody loves Fred Van Vliet. Gotta change the culture behind the scenes. Need a fixed commodity, a real point guard. Culture changer. And then you bring in Dylan Brooks for 4 for 80. I wouldn't call Dylan Brooks a culture changer necessarily. They spent $210 million on a backcourt of two guys that aren't all-stars. But they don't have their first round pick. It's top four protected. They needed to get better.

They definitely got better. It sets up the stage for one more trade maybe and then all of a sudden maybe they're a little friskier but I didn't understand 4 for 80 for Dylan Brooks at all. I just didn't. Explain it to me. I can't. It doesn't make any sense.

Part of me couldn't wait to see it be young again but they've done it now for two years where it's like, okay, this team's completely rudderless. I look forward to Ime Udoka telling the young guys to go bleep themselves at some point. I was really looking forward to Jalen Green and Porter Jr. coming back to the bench after something went wrong and Ime looking like he was going to fight him.

But I guess that's why they brought in Dylan Brooks to do that. The Van Vliet deal, it kind of speaks to what we've already covered. Like if you're Houston and you're going to go after a guy who's like the tier below the all-star, and I like him. You sent me a text though about his numbers that, you know, there's a scary part of him where he's like steroid Devante Graham, where he just kind of takes a lot of shots, but the overall numbers from it aren't that great. Yeah, Michael Pena had that in his ringer piece. He had pretty bad advanced metric shooting stats with him. That wasn't even advanced metrics.

That was just what's your field goal percentage in this many attempts. For Van Vliet, it's pretty low, but I don't know. What was it? He was anyone 16 field goal attempts and over, he had the lowest field goal percentage, 39%. That's right. He was last in whatever that was. And you can certainly sort some things out there

with that. And defensively, I think Nurse is so aggressive in this style that it makes all the perimeter guys look really good because all these deflections and all that kind of stuff. But I would never look at Van Vliet as a defensive guy. Look, here's the point. I'm okay with it because Houston was going to have to pay kind of the Bruce Bowne part of it,

even though Indy is not Houston right now. You just go, hey, look, for Van Vliet, this is the price for him to come here. All right, fine. The Brooks one makes no sense. The Brooks one doesn't make any sense. So part of me is like, wait, aren't you now bringing in two guys that get

in the way of the guys that you're trying to develop? But I can kind of understand Houston being like, I don't know that we can do this another year. I don't know we can do this another year, roll the ball out, let Porter Jr. and Jalen Green do whatever they want, and then try to figure out how Eamon Thompson gets into it. And then Shingun, who's really nice, getting ignored, and Jabari maybe not always being engaged.

And then Tari and then Whitmore. It was clear that they were like, whatever we're doing with all these picks, we need some other guys and let them fight it out. And I'm okay with the Van Vliet part of that. $80 million for Brooks is too much. And I think we both felt like Brooks was actually a little underrated the way people were talking about him a month ago. And then he became overrated again. The China stuff was stupid. It's kind of like what happened to Austin Rivers years ago,

where it was like, oh, this guy wouldn't even be in the league. And you're like, okay, you can hate him, and he's not a starter, but he's an NBA player. And Brooks brought it on himself, so nobody's going to sit there and say, hey, leave him alone when you talk all that shit, and then you don't talk to the media multiple games after that Lakers series.

But $80 million for him to then, like, I know they had to use the space, but that's the problem with cash spaces. Sometimes you have to use it. My fear with Van Vliet, if he has the ball in the last five minutes of a game, I just don't know how many games you're winning. Right.

I think he was at his best in that finals in 2019, playing off a bunch of really good players where he was just additive. But, you know, Toronto had all these crunch time issues last year and the year before too. And part of it at least was him and Siakam with the ball at the end of games. And they would always be in these tight games and then they'd lose by one, they'd lose by three. I don't love the the smaller guys who's not Dame Lillard who's hitting their 30s but at least it's three years

not four and everybody says he's the greatest guy and I think that was that's where the 50% tax come in it's like we just need an awesome guy in here it's not that they have him

they have Budoka I get it I don't know who they're competing against with Dylan Brooks next one Orlando had the 6th and 11th picks are competing against with Dylan Brooks. Next one. Orlando had the 6th and 11th picks and a bunch of cap space. And they turned that into Anthony Black

and Jed Howard and Joe Ingles for 2 for 22 and Mo Wagner 2 for 16. It just left me a little cold. We were talking a lot about, man, could they do this? Could they do that? What if they put all these things together? Yeah, but that's what we say.

That's what we say. I'm going to say it one more time because you've said it a few times in both parts of today's pod. Like, oh, this is probably the precursor to the next thing or this means they can do this here or they can do that there. The likelihood is most of these teams are stuck with these contracts.

The likelihood is that you're not going to be flipping Dylan Brooks into anything. D'Angelo Russell, we're on the same page about. But what could Orlando realistically do without trading any of the pieces that they don't want to trade? I don't know. Fultz is a lot better. Is there a trade market for him? Is there packaging those picks for number four?

Yeah, they probably could have done that. Could they have done it for number three? Absolutely not. Ingles at two years and 22 mil, fully guaranteed at 36 years old, what he's going to be when the season starts. The fact that I think last year, 83% of his attempts were three-point shots. And what I loved about Ingles is that he gave you a big wing body to at least size match with some of the other big wings in the NBA. But it was the playmaking, man. He could run, pick and roll with him. His assist ratio stuff, it's not even close. Now, is that because he was in Milwaukee and he wasn't going to initiate as much offense as he was during Utah? Or is that part after the injury and the age gone? If he can get back to some of that playmaking, initiating stuff and taking the

burden off the on dribble creation that Franz and Paolo and Fultz are going to have and still trying to figure out how Suggs fits in all this. I figure they got to get rid of one of the guards. I used to love this dude. I used to love this dude. But when we're looking at Brooks for $80 million, you may look at Ingles for $22 going, yeah, this is what's available for teams that are in this tier.

I thought he looked washed last year. I'm not going to tell you he's not, but you hate it. I know you hate it. I didn't think he could guard anybody, and he's 36 years old. I also really, really liked him. I just don't think he's that guy anymore. The only way you can talk yourself into it is if you're saying he was coming off a major injury

and that was a two-year injury, not a one-year injury. I don't know. It feels like the black pick just feels like they have another fault. Anthony Black. The Jed Howard thing, everybody seems to think,

everyone who follows the draft is like, Kobe's a better player than Jed Howard. I don't understand that piece at all. I don't follow college basketball like you, but I think if you put 20 draft experts together, like 19 of them would say Kobe's better than Jed Howard. Anyway, I didn't love what they did. But the black pick though,

I think is getting shrapneled by the Jed Howard pick a bit. Because at six, you know, what did you want? I mean, unless you loved Jarese Walker, unless you loved Taylor. Cerruti says he's come around on black.

Well, no way. A fan of a team that's spent a really high pick on a player is going to hold out hope that it's going to work out? That never happens. He could be the next Markel Fultz.

He's going to learn from Fultz. Fultz is good now. Yeah, he's going to work out. That never happens. He could be the next Markel Fultz. He's going to learn from Fultz. Fultz is good now. Yeah, he's going to learn from him. How do you feel about Cleveland dropping $120 million on Max Truce, George Niang and Karis LeVert? What were your thoughts? That surprised me a bit.

You're a little taken aback. Which one was it? Karis LeBert two for 32. Was it Yang three for 26 or Struis four for 63? You know what? I always wanted the ringer to do. And I'm going to answer that, but I wanted them to go like a flow chart of what the $5 million guy is now

with the cap spike that we had in the Durant to Golden State offseason. And then with the new money that's coming in. We need to do a flow chart of like, remember when the six for 36? Remember the old mid-level where it was $6 million, but you could do it for like six years? Yeah. That was like a nice player back in the day. You're like, oh, that's pretty good. I think $12 12 to 15 million is

the new six million dollar mid-level that we that we grew up with right the defenso is another one yeah i like i like him but 12 million a year seems seems high yeah so i think you have to kind of look at it as like all right lavert two-year commitment so the annual is going to go up because you don't want to go beyond the two. I think they were so desperate, honestly, Bill, to find some option that closes as the fifth person with the other four guys, with Allen, with Mobley, with Mitchell, and Garland, that it's like, okay, maybe we can go big with Niang, who hits threes.

Strews fights his ass off on defense and is a proven guy. I just think that Struis number is really high. That Struis number seems really high. I think they just feel like, hey, can we give ourselves four different scenarios here as who the fifth dude is to close a playoff game? Isn't it funny in June, July

when certain guys go from, man, Max Struis, I like that guy. You can get him for your mid-level, like three for 40. We talked about this last week. I think I'd like him at that. But then it goes to the four for 63 and like, whoa, four for 63 for Max Struess, who was six for 31 in the finals. I don't know. It was definitely an overpay. But on the other hand, that guy's been in a lot of big games. And they needed more guys

who have been in a lot of big games. So I get it. I guess like if I was from 40,000 feet, what I would have wanted from Cleveland is somebody that could have played where I could take Jared Allen off the floor against certain teams or in crunch time. And Mobley's basically the five,

who is that four who can also get some rebounds and be scrappy? And it's none of those guys that they just signed. So they have Garland and Mitchell, who I think is- Wait, Niang is scrappy. I mean, he's had a lot of at-bats in playoff series at this point. And there's been games and even series where he was kind of pushed to the side

by a team that really needed a guy like him in the Sixers. So that would make me... So you're saying you think he could be the crunch time guy, Mobley, Niang, Struis, and the two guards, and Allen's off the floor and I can beat Milwaukee. Wait, so you're taking Allen off the floor and I can beat like Milwaukee. Wait, so you're taking Allen off the floor. I think you have to think about that.

If you're not against Milwaukee, but he was so bad in that Knicks series that you have to think, all right, all right, we have these two kind of lineups. We're thinking down the stretch, the mobile Allen lineup, and then the smaller lineup with mobile at the five,

which I think is the future of their team. But I just, they just did those three guys, so you're basically saying they're just hoping one of those guys can play crunch time instead of Okoro. Plus, you have the Okoro piece too. What do they do with him?

They're four small forwards now. I think they just hated their options. Mitchell is better with a second unit. He just is. By the way, want to talk worst rumor out there that they'd be interested in moving Garland? Remember that one? That was debunked quickly.

Yeah, but that one made no sense. We talked about it on our We Love Garland text thread. Yeah, and by the way, you're kind of on the clock with Mitchell at 27 and 28 years before the player option three years from now. So, you know, I think that playoff series was horrifying because it's like, oh, no, do we have two bigs that nobody has to guard? Like, is this what's going to happen? Or you go...

You asked that as a question, but it was an answer. They had two bigs that nobody felt like they had to guard. It was a problem. But the front office is normally going to go, okay, all right, fine. That sucked. All these defensive numbers from the regular season, let these guys get a year older,

everybody together. Mitchell, as bad as that series was, man, and it was bad, he was really good throughout the regular season and all that kind of stuff. I think they were always kind of searching for that fifth guy

and now they have options without knowing what the answer is. But I thought it was really expensive. I thought Struis was really expensive. Niang even leans towards expensive. I've never been a Levert guy, but, you know, keep the acid, I guess.

I don't like LVert on that team. I think there are certain teams for him. I don't think that was the team. A couple more dumb strategy stuff. So let's say it's true that Dame requested the trade on Monday. How does Portland end up spending the five for 160 on Grant? And I know I heard Zach talking about on TV about the cap goes up 10% each year. So in year four, year five of some of these deals,

it's not as daunting as maybe it would be right now to think you're paying 34 million a year for Jeremy Grant. I'm still daunted. I just think that's a lot of money for him. I just don't think he's that impactful. The stats are fine. To me, he's pretty much a good stats, bad team guy so far has been the resume. And we saw him on Denver with Jokic and decided, you know what? I'd actually would rather have my own team. It's like anyone who leaves Jokic, I'm just immediately suspicious of your basketball future. Because if I'm on Jokic's team, I'm like, oh my God. You know, Bruce Brown, it's different. Bruce Brown was cashing in. Grant, it wasn't even, remember, it wasn't even for that much of a money difference,

him going from Denver to Detroit. He just wanted to prove he could be the guy. I guess he proved something because he got five for 160. But to me, I've been following this league my whole life. I've been writing about it and talking about it for the last 25 years. Those are the contracts that kill teams when you're overpaying guys who aren't all-stars. And I just wouldn't do it. He feels a bit like a zero or 20 point guy where you were like, Oh, Grant had 20 tonight. And then you'd be like,

Oh, it's zero. I'm like, Oh, uh, zero is low. Zero is the lowest you can have in a, in a game if you're out there a lot.

When it was with Detroit, I'll admit like for that deal for the 60 million, I was shocked about that one because he didn't rebound enough. He completely disappeared at times. And I always thought he was maybe a little overrated as a defensive player. Like people just looked at him and how big and young and athletic he was. It was like, oh, great. You got this huge wing stopper. And Denver's defense wasn't like ever awesome. Granted, there's other people on the team. I get all that. And then when Detroit paid him that, I was like, oh, that must have been like

out of nowhere. And in fact, Denver wanted to bring him back denver wanted to bring him back at that number and to your point he kind of wanted to do his own thing and then he started showing me stuff offensively that i was like oh damn like there is more to it but if you're if he's like anybody in this league if they're taking 18 19 shots a game they're going to put up some numbers right that's what he was allowed to do they move on from him they get an asset back for it. We could talk about the cap going up and all that kind of stuff. And at first I thought, wait, they did this deal

and then Lillard asks for the trade, but they already knew about it. I think going back to the Monday, as you said at the top of the part one deal, I just think it's really, really expensive for somebody that I think the perception of him and what he brings night in and night out

is, is beyond the reality of it. It's a panic overpay is what it felt like, because you could just compare him to other guys in his general category, right? Kuzma gets four for one Oh two Cam Johnson, who's four years younger. He gets four for one Oh eight Harrison Barnes, who's an older version, but you know, another non all-star to wing he gets four for 108. Harrison Barnes, who's an older version, but another non-all-star to wing, he's three for 55. Bruce Brown gets the basically one for 22 and then his option for the second one. All of the guys in his general ballpark, nobody was anything close to five for 160.

And if I was Portland, that would make me super nervous that I fucked that one up. You know, like even somebody like CJ last year, when he signed the extension, he, he, he's kind of in that three for 90. He's always kind of stayed in that range, but it was never a five for 170. You know, I think when you get to the five and you, that number gets past 150, man, you better be an all-star close. And I just don't think he is. Yeah, at least be a snub.

Be a snub. Right. Or in VanVleet's case, he didn't make the all-star team, but then a couple people got hurt and then he made it. Isn't that what happened with him in 2022? And then it became, you know, you're a borderline bubble guy

and you get in, but Grant was just never that guy. So I didn't get that. Um, all right. The Pistons. This is going to be my most random part of the two part podcast. Just,

this is the team that should have made the Reeves offer because guess what? They use their cap space to go get Joe Harris from Brooklyn for, you know, I think they even took a second round pick to take them off Brooklyn's hands. So Brooklyn would have more money to do stuff. I'm going to make a spinoff of a Ruricillo joke. I'm pretty sure the Joe Harris trade was going to be there on July 6th. Do the Reeves thing. Let the Lakers take the six days and match it for four for 98. Maybe they won't. And you might stumble into a 25 year old guy who just played in three rounds of the playoff series and is like a real guy. Oh, we didn't get him. The Lakers match. Okay. Yeah. We'll do that

Joe Harris trade now. Instead they did it on June 30th. It's like, guess what? Joe Harris, I know you can look up his stats. I was like, oh, he shot 42% last year. He was unplayable defensively for a couple of years there. They couldn't keep him on the court. He's been hurt over and over again. I just think, oh, cool. We got Joe Harris. Cannot be the outcome when there's other moves that you should be making. Like even somebody like OKC, who's always operated on the fringes and grabbing contracts and grabbing picks. This is not a move like that. I didn't like it. I love how OKC, I was like, wait, they're doing this again. Right. They just, this is year four of them just

grabbing. Sure. We'll take that guy. Give us some picks. But anyway, I just didn't like the Joe Harris thing. So that's my random rant. Yeah, Joe did not look like back to your Ingles point. Joe Harris felt like he was kind of in that group of like, man, is he going to look better? And granted, he's younger, so he's got that advantage over Ingles.

Remember, he sucked in that playoff series and was kind of never the same after that. Where it was, it seemed like there was a certain version of him that was happening. We're like, wow, this guy, this is like exactly the fourth guy you need on a,

like a championship team. And then he sucked in the playoff series. And I don't know. He just, just seemed like he bounced around after that. But if you look at his basketball reference, like, well,

he shot 42% from three last year. That sounds good. But I just, there's a lot. But if you look at his basketball reference, like, well, he shot 42% from three last year. That sounds good. But I just... Yeah, there's a lot. I mean, look, he's been over 40% for six straight seasons here. Yeah. I mean, this is crazy stuff.

But he also... I test wise... He played this year after playing only 14 games. And I test, you're absolutely right. I'm just wondering if at 31, what, 32,

maybe going into next year, that you're thinking, all right, there's a better chance they're here reviving it. I think you are very on this Austin Reeves not getting a qualifying offer from another team. If it weren't the Lakers, would you spend this much time wondering why other teams didn't mess with their cap sheet? I would. I would because if Jeremy Grant's going to get 5 for 160, Reeves couldn't get four for 98 from somebody? I don't get it.

It looked like teams didn't want to wait around on it. But again, you don't wait as long as you have to. Remember back in the day when you made the offer on the restricted guy, you had to wait seven days to figure out what was going to happen. So teams were like that was another mechanism there to not go after other teams or restricted free agents because you felt like, okay, I have to wait around this whole time. Granted, they changed that a few times, I think, since then,

but there used to be this massive waiting period before you had to do it. Yeah, look, Joe Harris needs to look better, even though the three-point shooting, the numbers, you're right. You go to basketball reference, it looks like it's awesome, but he didn't look awesome watching the games last year. Let's take a break, and then we got to talk Milwaukee. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising

will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. After decades of shaky hands caused by debilitating tremors, Sunnybrook was the only hospital in Canada who could provide Andy with something special. Three neurosurgeons, two scientists, one movement disorders coordinator, 58 answered questions, two focused ultrasound procedures, one specially developed helmet, thousands of high-intensity focused ultrasound waves, zero incisions.

And that very same day, two steady hands. From innovation to action, Sunnybrook is special. Learn more at sunnybrook.ca slash special. All right, the Bucks, they bring back Middleton, three for 102. They bring back Lopez. It seems like Houston jacked that one up and they were able to bring him back

for a pretty prohibitive price. What was it? Twofer? He's in the 40s, man. I mean, it's a huge deal. And look, last week, I didn't think he was going to make that kind of money. It's two for 48 and they're both guaranteed.

So they're doubling down. The naysayer would say they're doubling down on a team that lost in round one in five games. The positive side would be like, this is a championship team. Giannis took a terrible fall in the Miami series. Butler had flame shooting out of his ass for an entire

week and a half. And it was a fluke event. Don't overreact. Bring everybody back. Let's go. And I don't know what side I'm on. Giannis playing half of the available minutes in that series. As bad as it looked when, even when he came back and that team looks scared to death.

You're bringing in a new coach, you know, the bud stubbornness. I mean, considering what he was going through personally too. And they were still like, no, we're moving on.

I think the Lopez number is really high, but for this window, like the first, because the fascinating, honest thing that I always think about still like, no, we're moving on. I think the Lopez number is really high, but for this window, like the first, because the fascinating, honest thing that I always think about, actually, I don't spend every day thinking about it, is that how interesting it's going to be when they're going to have to recreate this on the fly. As Drew gets older,

Brooke is now going to be, what, 37, 36, 37 on the back end of this. Middleton, who, you know, now it's a concern. Although I thought Middleton when he came back the second time this year I felt like okay he's moving around it looks better now this whole thing so them trying to just reload after was a disastrous

playoff exit no problem with it I also think it's kind of the default of the league hey let's run it back because it's better than changing everything around it but it's going to get weird when they have to figure out, like, this will be the last run with this group

the next two years. And then they're going to have to figure out if they have enough to build it around Giannis. Will Giannis be somebody that other players go, you know what? Like, how about Dame? Dame, maybe it's Milwaukee. He's like, hey, look, I was just important. I don't want to go to Milwaukee. But

why isn't Dame saying, I'd actually like to go play with that guy? Because they basically would just have Drew Holiday back and that's it for the trade because they have no draft picks. I guess they have some later ones like five, six years from now. I think your window point is really important. Giannis, 45.6 this year. He's extension eligible. I'd be surprised. 48.7 next year, and then he's got a player option for

the 25-26 season. So they have put a two-year timetable on this. Holiday's got a year left plus a player option. Middleton's got a year left plus a player option. Middleton's got two years left plus a player option. And Lopez has two years left. It's a two-year window. I think Mark Lazzari selling his share to me was an all-time sell-high move when he did it for two reasons. One is the evaluations were nuts.

He wasn't the controlling partner because him and Wes Edens had that, that they rotated it every five years thing. So I think, I think Edens is in charge right now, but he sold high on the evaluation. But there's like a little conspiracy bill side of it, which is like, I'm going to sell high right now before two years from now if Giannis leaves. All of a sudden, the Bucs aren't worth nearly as much because they're basically Charlotte at that point. For me, the Middleton thing

is what scares me. I know he looked better offensively in that series, but his defense, I thought, went completely south with that, whatever's going on with his knee. And I just don't trust it. He's going to be 32. We really haven't seen him healthy since the 2021

finals. And it's been two years now of hey, what are we getting with this guy? Is he coming back? Couldn't stop Jimmy Butler at all. At all in that series. Not that anyone could have, but at the same time, like two years ago, Middleton, I think would add a better chance.

I don't know, man. 31 and 34 for the next two years, 36 player option. What if he opts in? What if he's hurt the next two years? He's like, yeah, I'm going to opt in on that 36. It's tough. It's risky. Okay.

But again, I'll ask you, what else would you have done? Would you have told... I don't think they had a choice. I think they had to do this. They didn't really have any other options. They don't have any picks. What are they going to do? I just don't like it that much.

Of all the available things that were there for him, I'm sure there's probably some minor transactions we don't really know about. Would you have thought about a Drew trade? Yeah, but for who though? Could you have turned him into like two guys? Could he have had some real value?

Could you have made a case that, you know, championship experience and great defensive player, all that stuff, and maybe shopped him around a tiny bit. I would have thought about it. Okay. But I think they had to do something. Because that's why I wondered if they would get weird with Middleton before

the trade deadline, or maybe that's now this year, right now that they have them under the contract and it's, they don't feel like it's going great. Okay. But then it's like, okay, well,

if he's not great, you know, the best version, if we get the best version of Middleton, the price will be higher and then they won't want to trade him. If it's like, oh, we're not sure's not great, if we get the best version of Middleton, the price will be higher, and then they won't want to trade him. If it's like, oh, we're not sure about this guy, then what are you actually going to get?

You feel like Giannis is like, okay, that's awesome. I mean, this stuff is really, really hard. I mean, you want to talk about Drew. I mean, shit, we started the pod talking about Dame going hero and Duncan Robinson. Yeah, but you were at least getting picks and stuff. Yeah, you're right. Here's what I don't like. I should have said this sooner, but this is the big thing with being Milwaukee. There's two teams in the East who both match up really well against them and think they can beat them. Like Boston plays Milwaukee great. They have a real problem against Tatum. I would say Tatum is as comfortable against Milwaukee as any team in any good team in the league. And then Miami just kicked the shit out of them.

Right. And they're basically running it back. And those are the two teams they need to get by. What was their move? What's what, what like, what's your angle? If it's October and you're covering the team and you're like,

what's my angle that what's different about this Milwaukee team than the last two years when they lost to lost to Boston, when they had home, you know, they, they had a chance to close the series out in six, they couldn't. And then they got killed by Miami. What's different about this year? Everyone's just a year older.

Well, maybe you'd allow Giannis to defend Jimmy Butler or Tatum. So you're going all in on the coach. That would be the angle. I guess you're right. But other than that, not a lot of angles because they didn't you know they brought back uh but i see for me it gets back to like the phoenix thing and it gets back to the boston thing and you know maybe even golden state running this back it's like okay when you when you throw the ball up in the air and the season starts this fall, do you feel like, hey, we at least right now feel like you have a chance?

And Milwaukee has that. No question. So of all the different things, like, hey, do we get really aggressive and start to rebuild around Giannis for phase two now? Well, you might be costing yourself a chance to win the East.

And as bad as a 1-8 matchup was and how lifeless and honestly scared offensively they look as Jimmy Butler's taking their souls from them, I still think if Giannis doesn't miss half the available minutes

in that series... It's a different series, aren't it? I'm flagging it. Well, you're not going to encounter... I don't even know that we're disagreeing.

I think what I'm saying is the reality of it is... I need to come out of this summer and it's like, I finally found my guy who's going to be able to guard Jason Tatum and Jimmy Butler.

I have the guy now. Like the Celtics. Oh, I get to talk 80 Celtics. Andrew Toney kills the Celtics in 82. What are the... And then 83 saying, they know they have to stop Andrew Toney somehow. What do they do?

They trade for Dennis Johnson. I don't know who's guarding those dudes for Milwaukee. And this is why they've lost the last two years. They didn't address it. Well, they lost two years ago because Middleton wasn't healthy. And Tatum went fucking apeshit in game six. And then Grant Williams hit a bunch

of dumb threes in game seven, which is almost a religious event. Okay. Still not ready to talk about Kyrie yet. Minnesota, over the next three seasons, is paying $90 million, $108 million, and $117 million for three centers. Nasrid, three for 45 extension, the Gobert contract,

and then Towns, who has this big extension kicking in. 90 million, 108 million, and 117 million for three centers. Zag. You want to zag on this? Go ahead. No, I'm saying they zag.

It certainly is a zag. What's undervalued? Like stolen bases. What's undervalued? This is not sustainable. They have to trade Towns or Gobert has no trade value for what they, it would be too embarrassing for them. So it just makes me think, I think Towns is the other guy this summer who starts kind

of getting floated around. Because how do you do this? Talk about a recipe for non-success. I'm going to say it's that. The Nas deal is a good deal, though, at that number. Right. And they got it done ahead of time. Granted, his agent must have known ballpark-wise, like, hey, this makes sense.

You're comfortable, all that. I really like Nas. But I feel like I've already covered this with those two guys, with Gobert and Towns. I would just get... It's a Towns personality thing to me more than it's the number. I'm offering him to Houston.

For what, though? Just give me stuff back. Dylan Brooks? back Dylan Brooks not Dylan Brooks I guess like Towns makes so much money it would be really hard for them to make the salaries work I don't think Houston is going to trade you

all their draft picks after they just took a bunch of dudes that if half of them are good they're in a good spot I just don't know what they're doing Chicago's paying over the next three years, $60 million for Kobe White and Javon Carter. I actually like the Javon Carter

signing. You love Javon Carter. I do. I kind of wanted him for the Celtics, but the Kobe White three for 33, I felt blindsided. You think it's that bad? I don't think it's that bad. I just think you can find guards all over the place. You're talking bulls and you're, you're starting with those guys instead. I mean, Javon Carter, three years, 19 million,

no brainer. I think Kobe white actually showed me some things last year where I was like, this guy's going to be illegal. Oh, it was three for nine, three for 19 for Carter. I had that. And then Kobe's Kobe's three for 33. Wait, what did you have? All right, so three for 52 for those guys. Well, I just, I don't understand what Chicago's doing. I had Jason Goff on here the other day and talking about like, why aren't they,

why isn't this team blowing up and tanking? And instead they kind of doubled down. They got Vucevic on a pretty good deal. I had him actually on my strategy thing, like fire your agent Vucevic because you pretty good deal. I had him actually on my strategy thing. Like, um, fire your agent Vucevic. Cause you got less per year than Lopez and you got less years than

Yaka Perto. And you're better than both guys. Um, I just don't know what Chicago is doing. It seems like they're like the, they're having the fantasy draft where it's like, Oh shit, I need an outfielder.

Uh, all right. 28 bucks on Verdugo. Okay. And they're just trying to fill out the roster. I don an outfielder. All right. $28 on Verdugo. Okay. And they're just trying to fill out the roster. I don't get it. It seems like you have more understanding than I do. I don't know.

I don't think I have more understanding. I'm just surprised that more people were upset about the Vucevic thing than they were. What were they upset about with that? Just that they are running back the 42-40 team? It's a good price for him, though. You can spin him in

January. Are you sure he's that much better than Pirtle? I haven't liked the Chicago version of him because I think he's on a weird team. I would like to see... To me, I think there's a Sabonis Sacramento side to him that I still haven't felt like we've seen on the right team. That's how I would position it. I would like to see him used in a more creative way. The Chicago team is not it.

I just had the Knicks, the four for 50 for DiVincenzo was a little aggressive, but, you know, 50% tax. And then last one, Kyrie. What's a Nova with those other guys? Kyrie, two plus a player option. It's like over 120.

What is it? What's the number? 130? Three years. Oh, excuse me. It's three years, 126, it's like over 120. What is it? What's the number? 130. Three years. Oh, excuse me. It's three years, 126. The third year is a player option at 45.1. Well, let's get to it.

I can't believe it took an hour. It's a dessert on the dinner. To me, he's a year-to-year guy. And that's it I'm not I can't go multi years with you I don't trust that

it's going to go well so let's go by the year and see how this goes and you can have the player option each year but that's how I want to handle this Kyrie and that's that

it'd be nice but it's not realistic. Walk me through the Dallas side of this. Is this embarrassment because you traded Dinwiddie and Finney Smith and you're 29 first? So you feel like, well, we got to keep them or that trade looks bad. Or is it like a fear of like with Luca? Well, if we don't

bring Kyrie back, Luca's going to think we're a mess. Maybe he'll ask for a trade. So we got to do this. We know how this is going to play out. Don't we? I'm pretty sure. What about he went at you, huh? He called you Billy boy. I didn't know that till today. Yeah. He had, he had a tweet responding to my tweet. It was kind of like, I was, he insulted me or I didn't understand it. I've noticed his move when he goes at somebody who's critical of him. It's like a lot of like blessings for you and your tribe. And it feels like he's putting a curse on you. He's telling it's, it's Kyrie for fuck off.

Right? Yeah. It's definitely what he's telling it's Kyrie for fuck off. Right. Yeah. That's definitely what he's doing. So my original tweet was they gave him three for 126 and they outbid the three teams that were offering him three for 25. I guess Kyrie didn't like that too much. But I just, who else was in this? What other teams?

I'm still waiting to hear like even the second team, I guess if you're the Lakers, would you rather have Gabe Vincent for three for 33 or Kyrie for the mid-level? I guess you would say Kyrie, but I, I personally would rather have Gabe Vincent because I'm close to a title. Give me the known commodity who I know is like a good guy, hardworking, and it's not going to blow stuff up. Hey, as you know, over here at Rosillo Industries, we don't get into the Kyrie business. If we had a poster, it'd be like open seven days a week.

We don't get into the Kyrie business. I have a quick timeline just to revisit his stuff over the last year. You go back to last year, he had the player option for the Nets when he and Durant were on the warpath. And Shams tweeted out the story that he was going to decline it and be willing to play for the mid-level with the Lakers,

which I think was the tax mid-level. So we're talking like six to seven million. So he's going to lose like 25 plus million dollars on that. And guess what happened? Even though all of us are like man if there's one dude who might do something like that maybe it's kairi he came back picked up the player option and then came back and played for brooklyn um during the time with brooklyn asks for another trade out just as things were actually looking like they were heading in the right direction because he wasn't getting the extension. And by the way, he was offered the full four years

for about as much as you could possibly make, but the Nets had this weird clause where they wanted him to play in the games. It's crazy, I know. And Kyrie was like, no. So he actually kind of fucked himself out of that contract when he should have been able to take that one so then during the playoffs we have a story that he's looking to bring lebron to dallas that lasted for like four and a half hours right because there was no way lebron wanted

to go to dallas none of that made any sense and that wasn't true and then just the other day just the other day a leak story where it's like oh i may go meet with phoenix because this this three for 126 maybe that was the final number the last number i don't know if the phoenix thing phoenix phoenix wasn't going to do it i'm sure eight would beon would be fine playing in Dallas, but I just didn't understand the Phoenix part of that. I don't think that was all. So that's just three or four that I'm giving you where you're like, wait, none of that. I think Kyrie actually is behind a lot of this stuff,

and I don't know if Dallas felt like there was any kind of threat from it all. I think it's a bit like the D'Angelo Russell thing that I mentioned earlier, where it's like, yeah, that guy's kind of that number. Hey, Carol's the first kind of that number. It's almost like Dallas had to pay a bit more of a tax on this going.

Well, if we really play hardball with Kyrie, what version of Kyrie we're going to get. So if you give him an annual average number here, what he's sabotaging, if he's not happy about the money we gave him and he just goes into tank the season mode. Well,

I mean, that's awful, right? That's awful that you'd have to pay extra to prevent a guy from being bummed out. But we've seen him do it on other teams. We've seen him do it. I would love to know who was coming around $40 million average annual salary for three years. How about $25 million? Who was

doing it? Nobody had the cap space. He's lucky he got that deal. To say the least. Conspiracy Bill is going to come in here. I couldn't help but notice that if you add up D'Angelo Russell's deal and Rui Hachimura's deal, it works in the trade machine with Kyrie around December, January range. Just pointing that out. Like the Russell deal being abnormally high. I think we can all agree the two for 37 for a guy who couldn't make a shot

in the entire Denver series. A little rich, but it also allows them to maybe upgrade if they feel like they need to. I love it. It's my favorite point you've made. Thank you. Because here are the two options, because some people are going to listen to that and

be like, whoa, you don't go to. Okay, so you're just smooth sailing, smooth sailing for the next two years. We don't have to talk about the player option. It's going to go great. Just smooth sailing. And, you know, I don't know how good or bad the team's going to be. Luka needs to get in better shape. There's not a ton of depth. I love that they got Seth Curry at that number. I can't believe that good or bad the team's going to be. Luka needs to get in better shape. There's not a ton of depth.

I love that they got Seth Curry at that number. I can't believe that guy. That was great. How is Seth Curry a biannual guy? It doesn't make any sense to me. So whatever. Seth Curry gets that deal. He goes back to places where he played.

That's one way. That's one way it could go. Or it could go the other way, where the track record tells you that at some point he's going to go, you know what? I want to go to LA. I want to play with LeBron and you guys need to figure it out. I would phrase it this way. Would you bet your life it's going to go well for the next two years with Kyrie in Dallas? Anyone listening to this? Would you be like, yeah, I bet like Fred VanVleet in Houston, whether he, whether his stats are great or whatever, it'd be like,

will this go well for Fred VanVleet in Houston, just from a culture standpoint? But yeah, it will. Maybe he, maybe his stats will be a little worse than, than they thought. But for the most part, they know what they're getting.

You go on down the line. That's one of the things I'd want for that kind of money is to at least know I have a little stability in this situation. And you're just bringing instability into this. Right. But that was the mistake when they made, they were like, Hey,

we're getting a super talented guy at a completely discounted price. So you do this trade and it's in a vacuum and it's like, okay, but now the problem is you've got to bring them back. Now you have to keep them. And that's why there's no point in ever getting into business with them in the first place. And I'm telling you,

it would be shocking. It would be far more shocking if it's just, everything's cool the next two years. Agree. I guess my lingering questions before we, we want to talk about the ESPN stuff really quickly. Draymond, four years, a hundred million. Yeah, that's a pretty fair price. And I, and you know, I think it's cool that those guys, him and Clay and Curry,

that they stay together. I liked it. Yeah, that's why I wanted to have him. Do you feel like Tyler Hero now is kind of an underrated asset? Because we're coming off of playoffs where they did better as soon as he got hurt. People look at his contract and they're like, eh, it's a lot. But I also watch basketball.

There were a lot of games where he's really comfortable with the ball in his hands at the end of games. And I think he's a really, really good offensive player. Who's, I think, 22. And he's going to keep getting better. He's not 29. He's 22 or 23, something like that. And it's just weird to me now that he's this to keep getting better. He's not 29. He's 22 or 23, something like that. Um,

and it's just weird to me now that he's this discounted asset and he took the Miami heat off his Instagram page today. Well, he could have cheated. Um, I look, I think you're right. He's 23 years old.

I think you're right, but I'm only looking at the hero part of the Dame trade if you're talking just league wide like hey man you added Tyler Hero this is really nice like what else do you have in place defensively that kind of stuff yeah you're right I think you're right because I hadn't really thought of it that way because I've only thought about Tyler Hero in exchange for Dame and the lack of assets that Miami has if Miami's going to pull it off it feels like like it has to be a 13 because if I'm Portland, I'm going to go, dude, no, you got to do better. And I'm not losing Dame in a year. I have him in a contract for four.

Hunted defensively. So that's a mark against him, but he was 25 and 20 points, five rebounds, 5.4 rebounds, 4.2 assists last year. He shot 38% from three. He shot 93.4% free throws, which is like one of the highest marks of anybody who averaged more than two a game. And I do feel like he's gotten better every year. So it's weird. Like, so when we talk about with Dame, like Hero's not enough for Dame. And I don't think he is because I think you need to get a star back. But I still kind of like Hero. And if it's soured with him in Miami, that's somebody I would look at if I was somebody else. Like, let's get in the Hero business.

Maybe we can give them multiple guys back. Because if you're Portland and, you know, like if you're trading Harden or when the Kyrie request comes, the other teams, like we may be interested, but we know the deal. Miami, I think, should actually have to pay a little bit more because Portland should be saying, when he goes there, you're not going to have any problems. Right, you're going to be good. Would you trade Harden for Hero if you were Philly?

Because I would. Yeah, look, there's three guys that I wouldn't let run my team. And it's Kyrie, it's Harden, and it's Westbrook. And at this point, Westbrook at 3.8. Like, okay, whatever. I'm not going to get... If you were Miami, would you trade Hero for a year of Harden? And some cap space? No.

I don't think I would either. Would you? Yeah, okay. Yeah. Would you trade Malcolm Brogdon for Harden? No. I would move out of the country if that happened. And then the only other question I had for you is,

why did Houston cool off on Harden? Was it ever real? It's amazing, huh? It seemed like it was done that he was going there. Well, that's what everybody was saying. Yeah. That's why I brought up the combine story

in part one. No, I know. It's just like, what happened? Do you think Adoko was like, they have a meeting with him, like, so here's our plan. So James is coming and he was like,

hold on a second, hold on. That Harden thing's true. We're actually going to get him. We can't do that. And just spent the next week talking them out of it. They're like, no, no, you don't understand. People love James here. It's like, I don't fucking care.

We're not doing that. Because I kind of feel like that might've been what happened. What if it was fake the whole time? Like Harden started getting a sense of... Just floating stuff out. Philly wants to do like three for 120, but the third year has harsh guarantees. So you're saying a team and their team around them might, or a player and their team around them might have floated fake stuff

to reporters to see what, to throw a little test balloon out there. You're saying that happens. I gave you four Kyries in 12 months. All right. I think we covered it. Do you have anything else? I think we hit everybody. I think we had every team.

Yeah. I think that was a good job by us. A couple of teams that we didn't get to. I did like the... I like the Sabonis extension and the Clarkson extension too. We probably should have mentioned just that. I like when teams use their cap space

to give the guys more money, but then have a more favorable cap number down there. How about the no questions asked full max extension for Lomelo? Oh, that was in my notes. Oh, that was in my notes. Oh, that was in my dumbest strategies of the weekend. Why didn't we mention that?

Yeah, man. Five for 260. He's their guy. Woo. Can I finish 500? Can we go 500 before I give you 260 ESPN stuff

so they laid off a bunch of people which sucked and they did it on Friday the last day of June of the quarter and one of the people they laid off was Jeff Van Gundy who I think is one of the three best color analysts that we've had do TV since I've been alive for basketball. It was him and Steve Kerr and Doc Rivers, I think are the best three I've ever heard. My guess is they're going to bring in Doc Rivers.

And I thought that before it got even floated. I know Doc wants to do TV and maybe that they're thinking you get rid of Van Gundy and you replace him with Doc for one or two years. Doc goes back coaching. Ultimately, you save a lot of money at that position. I just really valued his perspective on stuff. And man, we watched a lot of basketball. I can't say there's a lot of savvy color guys doing these games that actually point shit out, that explain shit,

that understand what coaches are trying to do. Some of the conundrums that pop up during a game that have a sense of a moment for the fourth quarters. And to just toss that away was shocking to me. Yeah. The layout stuff's always tough. You know, in 17, when I, you know, had to say goodbye to a bunch of friends, you know, whether they were people I always saw at work or lived near me or my co-host, you know, 17 was really, really tough. But it's a tough business in every corporation, especially one of the size of Disney on down. Like this stuff's going to happen. but it's a tough business in every corporation, especially one of the size of Disney on down.

This stuff's going to happen, but it's so much more personal when you're going to fight so hard for so long to kind of get to an ESPN. So there's that part of it. And in this round, I lost three people that I would consider pretty close friends. And the Van Gundy one, though, I just don't know how you go like, Hey, do we have the best person

in the business on the NBA? We do. We have them under contract and he's in the building. All right. Well, let's, let's go into tomorrow without that person. You know, it's a bit like some of the contracts that we just talked about, or you're sitting in a room and you're like, hey, do you want to pay Dylan Brooks 80 million? Does anybody else? You know, should we do that? Oh, wait, no, let's not do that. So I know that it's always an accounting thing that a lot of us don't understand

when it comes to moving off of the salaries and there's other people where the contracts, you know, they're not going to be renewed. And we don't know what the number was with him because he always had the coaching possibilities. He was there for a long time. The number might've been way higher than we knew. Not that that excuses it, but unless they replace him with Doc Rivers, this is one of the all-time bonehead TV moves that I

can remember because he actually was good. And it was like having Van Gundy do a game of like, oh, cool. We got Van Gundy for this one. Especially in the constant noise. Man, I was kind of stupefied by that one, Russillo. Because I'm going to miss listening to him do games. Yeah, that's the thing. So if you're just starting from there, it's like, man, people like us, I would say we're probably the toughest audience possible for a studio show or a game broadcast. Definitely.

And we both like Van Gundy. I just valued his takes on stuff and I felt like he was able to make the game feel a little bit bigger, which is the number one skill you need to have. Collinsworth had it. I think Aikman has it right now for football. McCarver had that for a little while with baseball.

Kerr 100% had it. Doc had it for a couple years that he did it. Collins, for a moment, I thought was pretty good. I thought he was maybe a notch below the top three, but this is, it's just hard to find those dudes. And if I'm TNT and I could just add Van Gundy, I'm doing it. Yeah. And I know that there's some probably listening to us, maybe you're younger, and be like, hey, he didn't even like basketball, and he complained like crazy about flopping,

or he complained about calls, and he went crazy during the Denver-LA series, and people really got pissed at him. But it kind of reminds me of doing this job, and it's like, oh, I listen to you all the time, but I haven't liked you since you said this. You're like, look, if you're going to listen to somebody talk, observe, and then have opinions, and they're going to do it for a decade plus or two decades, at some

point you're going to have stuff. You're like, you know, the standard that you're held to talking publicly for a living of like, well, I liked you up until you said this thing. You're like, wait, so you like. Oh, you say this sometimes. It's like, yeah, because I talk for seven hours a week. Guess what? I'm going to have a couple of things that are kind of my go-to things that I say every once in a while.

Right. Like at ESPN, it's like I'm doing 15 hours live every week for 10 years almost. Yeah. I might repeat a couple of things. I mean, your wife ever say anything that pisses you off? Right. So with Van Gundy, I think there were some people that style wise he complained too much but I actually I was aligned I liked his complaints now even if I disagreed with his complaints

his greatest asset which you know look I'll just be honest with you I think for either people it doesn't come to them naturally even though they played or coached I think there's always a prep issue. I think a lot of the former players love this gig because it's a really cool lifestyle. There's no real pressure on you. You fly first class. You stay in nice hotels. You get out of the house.

You know, it depends on how busy you want your schedule to be. But we've worked with those guys where it's like, oh, you want the gig, but you don't want to do the job. And when I see Van Gundy or I watch a game of Van Gundy, whatever, the game has its flow, right? Certain things are happening. Nothing's been said that's so amazing or enlightening. And then he'll be like, oh, why aren't they doing this on this thing here or whatever? And you go, oh, wow. Okay, now let me look for this. And he'd always point it out before anybody else pointed it out. Always, okay? And I think I'm going to be nice here about the Mark Jackson part of it,

but because Van Gundy coached him, because they have this respect for each other, that the times were maybe, I wasn't vibing with what Mark said, Jeff made it fun still like those guys work together so well because we're talking about like three decades of experience and yeah and just a respect factor that that jeff and mark are going to have for each other because of the wars that they had to go through so look man i there's a lot of stuff we could say oh you know

whatever whatever behind the scenes there's plenty of stuff that we could say, oh, you know, whatever, whatever. Behind the scenes, there's plenty of stuff that we don't really know. But, you know, I remember when I was there, one of the great prideful things about the NBA for ESPN was that of the professional sports, that was the one where they presented the trophy, right? That was their, they had the NBA finals. They didn't get the Super Bowl,

although obviously they're making moves to try to maybe line up for that. They don't have the World Series, right? They've got the College National Championship. But for pro sports, they were the ones that try to maybe line up for that. They don't have the world series, right? If you have the college national championship, but for pro sports, they were the ones that were present to Larry O'Brien. So you'd want that product to be the best that possibly could be. And I don't know how it ever becomes better without Jeff Van Gundy.

If you're going to ding him on anything, he was a little too obsessed with the refs and got a little too caught up with it, but that's fine. I'm willing to take that with all the other stuff he brought to the table. And unfortunately, you know, there's a lot of conspiracy stuff out there right now

about that the league, you know, that they never liked the Van Gundys, that they wanted him off the main broadcast. I just know from personal experience, I've told this story before, so it's not like this is not a breaking news story. When I did countdown the first year in 2012, it was supposed to be Stan Van Gundy. And we were supposed to join together and be with Magic and Wilbon.

And that was what was going to happen. I talked to Stan and we were going forward and Stern squashed it. And he was like, I don't want two Van Gundys. And that's how Jalen ended up with the job because at the 11th hour, Stan got yanked. So part of me wonders, all right, is that true? Because I know from firsthand experience, now that was Stern. This is Adam Silver. It's a little bit different, but this is so weird to me that unless Doc is coming and they figured out, oh, we can get Doc for two years and he's cheaper than Van Gundy, nothing else makes sense to me.

You don't take the best guy off your broadcast who does this for a living unless there's some other reason. So it's too bad. I will say you and I both have dealt with him a bunch of times and I worked with him at ESPN as you did. But I always thought he was really gracious with his time and just a good guy. Then the J ESPN shows bouncing around at a really different era for what it was like for players to go into media. I don't think they had the same respect. They either came in and they were doing games and it was like the Magic Johnson Isaiah just gets thrown right into a game or they get thrown on a studio show. Barkley was the one and Kenny too that really hit. So everybody was being compared to them. But for the most part, the guy who just played and then kind of moved into the media side, they were just used as these kind of talking head, move your hands guys. And the stuff Jalen did with us at Grandland was really cutting edge. Nobody had heard an ex-player really talk about, that was what we really leaned into when he was doing this stuff with me and with Jacoby,

which eventually became a TV show of like, take us under the hood. Tell us what it's really like to be an NBA player. Pull the curtain back. Teach us. This was not anywhere. This wasn't on TV. It wasn't on the radio. It wasn't on podcasting. And he was the pioneer for it. He was the pioneer in a bunch of different ways. He also, you know, he started his own school in Detroit. And I just thought he was such an incredible asset for them for 12 years and such a good guy that it just really hurt to see it just end on a Friday, you know, on a tweet, you know, and I've been in that situation too. Like I found out the same way it sucks. Um, but I thought what he did at ESPN, he paved the way for a bunch of dudes now who are basically doing the same thing

that he was the first one that who did it at ESPN really anywhere. And, uh, I just thought, I think he should be really proud of everything he did. So that's my Jalen monologue. One of the first things I was ever told about this business is that there's very few happy endings and it's just true. I don't know that that's specific to this business, you know, like how many athletes get to go out on their terms, how many coaches, I mean, look how many people working in finance or, you know, maybe that that's the illusion as a kid. You're like, oh, you know maybe that that's the illusion as a kid you're like oh you know i'm gonna do this i'm gonna work hard and everything's gonna be happy happily ever after it's actually kind of rare and then you find like new things that make you happy

and certainly the classic guys that we're talking about right now they've made so much money it's a lot different than you know some of the people that lost their gigs in 17 so i'm not saying well i just know that you know when you add it all up people be less sympathetic about it but like the the human part of it is it's cool as shit when it's going your way at espn yeah it's a cool feeling because you've got partnerships with all the leagues and you know i didn't get to experience that way and i shouldn't have you know i wasn't somebody that to experience that way. And I shouldn't have, you know, I wasn't somebody that played or anything like that, but like even the best versions of the things that I got to do,

you'd have to kind of take a moment and be like, man, this is awesome. And even for somebody else who, you know, played or, you know, guys, even that had better careers than, than somebody like Jalen in the league or whatever, there's still this moment that when you're attached to it and you're doing the NBA finals, like you did bill, like you're doing NBA finals show and you're sitting in the arena and you're in that tunnel and that desk and you're like, everybody's coming back to us afterwards. Like that's an incredible opportunity and an awesome feeling. And when it's gone, it's probably never coming back. And it doesn't matter how much money you've made that it's kind of sucks specific to the Jalen part and like countdown. And we've already covered this too many times, but I just don't know what that show is supposed to be. I don't feel like it gives anybody a chance. Like

it's, I know what everybody wants, like watch TNT show and then watch ESPN show TNT. They're allowed to explore the space. They come back being like, let's make this the show ESPN show. Like, I don't, I don't know that there's a group that you could put together that would solve the problem just based on the way- They don't even talk to each other. Everybody just goes in a circle. They have like, what, three minutes at halftime? Yeah, like, hey, we're back, thought, and let's get out of here. And you're like, wait, you want to pretend you're competing with this other?

They're not even the same product. So I may like one guy more than the other guy or all that kind of stuff. But until they ever say, hey, let's have this be a place where you can watch some guys talk about what just happened without some fucking shot clock off the corner of the set. But that's the irony of ESPN is the talent comes and goes. All these people who elevate the company in all these different ways. And the behind the scenes people, a lot of times don't come and go and they, it's always the talent's fault when the show's not good. Countdown has had the same problem since I was on it. And since the 10 years before I was on it,

there was never enough time to talk. It was never produced correctly. And it always just felt like people going in a circle, just trying to get off takes, not even listening to each other. So I think they're going to put Bob Myers on it next year. That's what I heard in the Jalen spot. And guess what?

Bob's not going to have enough time to talk either. Bob's going to be good at TV. But if Bob gets that gig, I would want to hear him talk NBA. But guess what? He's not going to have enough time to say anything. And somebody that's had some of my favorite interviews be with Bob Myers, to tell that guy to hurry it up before he gets back.

Can you just lay out for Steve and A for two minutes again here and then can you put in your 20 seconds on how the salary cap works? He's not going to succeed. Do you have your Modelo thought of the day? But yeah, so the Jalen thing, I think sometimes you see over and over again it's it's always the talent's fault if the show's not working correctly or you know whatever and I I think when you're behind the scenes and this is something we really pride ourselves at the

ringer like it's part of your responsibility to make people succeed when they're doing stuff for you right you want to put you want to get the best possible version of people. And you can't tell me with their NBA coverage that they've consistently done that, you know? And so I look at somebody like Jalen and I just feel like that guy's a huge asset. And I didn't think that show was very good and I don't know who to blame on it. But I just look, if I'm Iger, eiger i'm going hey we have the nba finals what's the problem with like and we're back final score greeny 30 minutes one long commercial break in the middle and like let's let's talk about stuff yeah i mean we spent all that time talking about all like the moving pieces and the drama around the halftime thing.

And then finally somebody in the media timed it. It was like all this headache for fucking 180 seconds. Right. Brian Curtis wrote a piece about it. They're spending all that money for it and they value the commercials more. Which is fine. Look, I get it. It's about the commercials, but I don't know what my God, whoa, he said that. And they're rewarding people who

kind of strike oil with those takes. Right. So then if you're around the vicinity, you're like, well, is that, is that how I get ahead here? So I have to, do I have to get the 90 second Twitter, Twitter take? And that helps me. And at some point, you get what you deserve. Right. Imagine being on the show and then you're sitting there and be like, all right, Green is going to bring us back. What do you have, Stephen A.? I think that Denver is going to destroy Miami's zone.

Okay, Wilbon, what do you got? You're like, all right, well, I think the shooting for the depth for Denver is too much for Miami to overcome. All right, Rosillo, what do you got? If I'm Jimmy Butler, I retire after game two. All right, that's where we're going. That's where we'll go with that. Start with Ryan. Jimmy Butler should be ashamed of himself.

Yeah, no, unfortunately, I don't know. Maybe people like it, but I also think... Oh, I see. Here's the thing is I think people actually like it. I've already done this. Maybe they do. I think it helps us though. I think it helps normal conversations like the podcast we just had. Well, I've already did this with Curtis, but my epiphany recently in the last year or so is when I look around, I think people actually do like this. I think people like it and it's kind of good for business. So, I mean, now it's a different topic that we're on here a little bit off of the layoffs and everything.

But it's a weird job because longevity is hard to come up with, man. But I know personally, not as somebody who works in the business, it's just a fan. I still listen to talk radio. I don't really watch the shows that much because I don't like being inside if I'm not watching sports. I don't like to spend time watching more TV. After all the TV I watch for the games and everything, but talk radio, I go around. I listen to what everybody's doing. I listen when I'm driving. Yeah. Or I'll listen to TV shows that are being first things first because my friend Wilds is on that show. I was driving around on Friday and Broussard was saying how,

you get Kyrie Irving, you get a proven playoff guy. And he's doing this whole thing. And either Wilds or Nick Wright was like, wait a second. He made the shot seven years ago. How much longer does he have to dine on that? And I'm driving to my car like, yeah, you tell him. There is something about talk radio that still works right but it's it's hard to like get noticed if you're not saying something that would

get you noticed and I feel like there's always like a line cutting way of doing it but then sometimes I'll look around and like at least again for me personally I've already said this but it's it's like if I already know like what your angle is going to be in the result, the best place to work. Like they, and I've said this before, but the run that we all had when we were doing Grantland and 30 for 30 and everything, when they were just trusted our take and spending money on the stuff that we cared about, like it was great, you know, and it's still staggering how many people watch ESPN as the cable bundles dying, as we're moving into this weird streaming world. But there's still people who are just like,

you know what? I like to have my coffee and watch Stephen A. Smith. And that's just what I like. I like to put on TV and I like to hear people argue about sports. And that's what I like. And I don't know if that goes away even as the cable bundle dies,

which goes back to the Van Gundy thing. To me, it still matters to have one awesome color person, right? And now maybe he's been out of the league too long and you could start like picking him probably as a coach for 17 years. How is he doing? It doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter. He still watches the game. He's still elevated it. He's still put in the work. And that's why, so if we're going to spin it on a positive, like somebody like Legler, who I felt like was on his way out there,

you know, and like really marginalized. And now he's kind of had this resurgence because he still puts the fucking work in and he's still good on TV and he's got this reason stuff. You've had him on your pod a bunch of times. I think he does an excellent job.

Yeah, the stuff he does with Van Pelt, it's great. Yeah. And so there's still people that put in the time and we don't need to list all of them, but weird times regardless. In general, it just seems like they're starting to mirror kind of what's happening in sports in general, where you just have the big expensive stars and then kind of the lower middle class and then there's happening in sports in general, where you just have the big expensive stars and then kind of the lower middle class, and then there's nobody in between. Well, that also speaks to the live rights fees, you know, and the company, I remember you and I were talking about it, I think while I was still there and we were just talking and I think you'd said like, Hey man, it's a live rights company. And honestly, are they wrong to do that? Of course not.

Like if you're trying to find a way to continue to get people to watch your channel live, and that's why all these teams are worth so much money, and that's why the TV rights, like I don't know when it's going to end or if there's some kind of live rights bubble. And even though you can talk about cutting cords and all the traditional stuff, well, if you position yourself with all the streaming content that's still live, then you have a leg up on everybody else, which is what ESPN should feel really good about. So I mean, nobody wants to lose that or hear that when you're losing your job, but it just comes down to some simple math. And it does feel like, I know Curtis and I talked about this,

not the most recent one, the one we did before that. It could be a bit like the NBA collective bargaining agreement and how it plays itself up the top guys are still going to get the top money yeah but is the mid level is the middle class going to be able to live like they did in the past and there's going to be minimum guys all over the place but you wonder if uh if that's what's happened to with the talent part of it too so and on that summer note we're going to wrap up our two-parter. Russillo, good to see you.

You have a podcast coming Tuesday on your feed? Yeah, Alex Caruso, The Bulls. All right. If you missed part one, go check it out. I'll be back on Wednesday or Thursday.

Don't forget about the rewatchables coming Monday night. Primal Fear, first movie from Courtroom Month. We're doing Courtroom Month. Haven't you already done Primal Fear. First movie from courtroom month. We're doing courtroom month. Haven't you already done Primal Fear?

No. Courtroom month, baby. It's happening. I loved that range of movies where it's like, wait until you see this twist. When you could still do it pre-internet. We talked about that on the pod where you could just have the usual suspects ending

and everyone kept it quiet. And you went to the theater and like, oh my God. Or the score. Oh my God, De Niro. Yeah, the score. Or Crying Game had it, the Blair Witch.

The 90s were the last decade where you could kind of keep secrets from the moviegoers. Blair Witch. Not Blair Witch, Sixth Sense. We might've been Marx though. decade where you could kind of keep secrets from the moviegoers or which i'm not where which six cents we might have been marks though like specific specific to primal fear where it's like oh this whole time and i don't know i think we're a little too educated now i think people like pick up on it a little bit quicker i just think there's this run of late 90s, early 2000s movies where the audience

was like, oh my god, I can't believe this twist happened. You had to write the script with a twist. I remember I went to see the score at the theater and you see the very end scene there. My buddy turns to me and he's like, they're running out of ideas. I wonder if you guys get super bored if you could try to come up with

a timeline of the twist movies and then like when it stopped. Get fantasy on that. All right. Good to see you, Russillo. All right. That's it for the podcast. So I am not coming back on this feed until Wednesday or Thursday, probably Thursday.

And I will be on the rewatchables on Monday night doing Primal Fear with Sean Fantasy and Chris Ryan. Enjoy the July 4th. Enjoy the extended weekend. And I will see you later in the week. I don't have.