The Bill Simmons Podcast - Part 2: Philly Chokes, Hawks Fever, and a Bucks-Nets Postmortem With Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: June 21, 2021

In Part 2 of the two-part Sunday podcast, The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss another 76ers playoff exit as the Hawks win Game 7 to head to the Eastern Conference Finals. They discuss the fundamental problems Ben Simmons brings to the Sixers, a lackluster (yet confident) Trae Young performance, and more (3:00) before discussing why this may be the strangest postseason in recent memory (50:45). Then they discuss the Nets' Game 7 overtime loss to the Bucks, Kevin Durant’s heroic effort to save the series, Giannis Antetokounmpo's impact, and more (1:08:45). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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because we stole him for a special Father's Day 2 part or part one is already up. Part two, we were hoping Sixers Hawks game 7 would be fun. Our hopes were correct. And we're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about the Nets Bucks series

and a holy shit Eastern Conference Finals Hawks Bucks. It's all next first program. Hawks, Bucks, it's all next, First Pearl Jam. All right, Priscilla is still here. We just watched the death of the process. The process was given last rights about 20 minutes ago. We're taping this.

It is almost 8 o'clock, Sunday night Pacific time. The process passed away about 15 minutes ago as Ben Simmons was subbed out with about two minutes left with his team down four points. One of the most shocking game seven losses I've ever watched. That wasn't shocking at all. You texted me during the game, I think early in the third quarter. And you were like, I'm convinced Philly is going to lose, or I really genuinely think Philly is going to lose something like that. And I completely agreed with you. Atlanta wins, even though Trey young comes within one field goal of matching Kobe's iconic six for 24.

He goes five for 23. Bogdanovich gives them nothing. And yet this becomes the Kevin Herter game. And more importantly, this was Ben Simmons' last game ever for the Philadelphia 76ers. He will not be on the team next year is my prediction. What's your biggest takeaway?

Two things. And I have a million things, so I'm going to try not to go forever because I know we have a lot of space here. Yeah, let's go back. Let's go rapid fire back and forth. We'll really, we'll step it up. This is why we're the pros.

I don't know that I can do this. We got it. We got it. For 48 hours, I've been thinking about these two teams. And I've been thinking about anybody that's played in a huge game. And there's two kinds of people.

The people that can't wait to get out there and play in a game seven and the people that dread it. And there's a lot of people that dread it. And the one guy that I thought was looking forward to it the most was Trey Young. I don't think there's any doubt. Now, granted, he was terrible for most of the game. He couldn't shoot it, but when it mattered late, he was incredible. And the other part of it is I'm still kind of sitting here in disbelief, yet not remotely surprised. It's both things. Like I can't believe Philadelphia lost to the Hawks, but yet we've had four years of evidence that when it comes to the playoffs in those big crunch time offensive moments, they're just not good enough. And even though I felt like there was a chance

they were better this year, let's face it. I picked the Sixers because I thought, well, I'm not going to pick the Nets and the Nets could get her anyway, but I didn't love it. I didn't really love any of the options as we get closer to it, but I'm sitting here kind of in disbelief, but the basketball part of us that have watched these games for decades, Trey Young was the most confident, the toughest, the most comfortable player throughout all seven games and hurt or carried him offensively. Don't get me wrong. But I don't know that any of us should be surprised because almost anyone that was arguing pro-Philly

all of these years, like, no, it's great. Ben and Joel can play together. It's fine, it's fine, it's fine. They were emotionally attached to the argument. I had a Bucks-Hawks parlay for round two. That was six to one. No kidding. And I could have gone against it.

I'm not bragging about that because the Nets, knowing now what we know about that Nets-Bucks series, which we're going to talk about later, even if Kyrie plays, the Nets win that series, much less if Kyrie and Harden play. Real quick, I mean, if we learn anything here, like if the Nets had been healthy, this would have been a wrap. Yeah, wrap and a half. Um, but anyway, I had a chance to

hedge against the, the Hawks thing today. And you, you know, you could do Sixers money line. You could try to do teases. I didn't even consider hedging. Cause I genuinely thought Atlanta could win if try young played well. And then try young doesn't play well and they still win. He was, what was he, one for 13 in the first half? I just, this Philly team just looks broken to me and it's been lurking here for years.

The Simmons and B thing, you and I have discussed ad nauseum and Simmons just looks scared to me. The iconic play and the play that will be the meme for the entire Ben Simmons process era is going to be him passing up a dunk so he could pass to the eyeball in traffic. He had a dunk.

And he just, not only did he not want to dunk, he didn't want to get fouled. And you could hear the Sixers fans booing and groaning. This is a home game for them. There's three minutes left. And then you compare it to the other side, Trae Young. They're up three. I think there's like, what, two and a half minutes left? And at that point, he's three minutes left. And then you compare it to the other side. Trae Young, they're up three. I think there's like, what, two and a half minutes left? And at that point, he's four for 22.

And he takes a 32-footer and makes it. It was bad. I don't think it was four for 22 because I thought he... No, that was the last shot he took. That was it, I think. He was four for 22. And that made it five for 23. Yeah, that's right. Five

for 23. That's right. Cause he was, he was nine 11 for the free throw line. Cause you're like, Oh, he ended up with 21. I mean, he was, he was missing everything. I think he was Oh, a seven to start the game. He was getting good shots and missing them. And if it was weird, cause if you're rooting for the Hawks at halftime, you're going, I can't believe we got that half from Trey and we're still in this. And if you're a Sixers fan, you're like, wait a second. Trey's off tonight. We should have this. What are they going to do?

It's going to be Herter and Gallinari unless Trey gets going. And Trey never really got going and it didn't really matter. I just felt like Doc had no feel for this team the whole season. We could talk about some of the fundamental roster stuff, but I even like, where was Korkmaz down the stretch? At least it seemed like he wasn't afraid to shoot threes. I just would have surrounded Embiid with shooters and the fundamental shadow over this team

and this season and the whole process is Simmons shouldn't have been playing in the last six minutes. They should have taken him out. I am a huge Ben Simmons defender. I thought Houston should have traded Harden and got Simmons back in the package, but he just couldn't be out there in the last six minutes.

And I think Doc was afraid to bench him. Honestly, I think he's too big of a star and you don't want to be like, all right, I'm going to bench the second best player on my team. Cause this is the only way I can win the game. And he wouldn't do it. A couple of numbers for you.

Embiid, 16 turnovers in back-to-back playoff games. The first time that's ever happened. Eight plus turnovers in back-to-back playoff games since 1984. But can I say one thing on that? They're asking him to be the

main creator. They're giving him the ball 20 feet from the basket, and he's supposed to create their entire offense. They weren't posting him up, and I didn't think he was he was 100 healthy either but it was like they had no other options i don't have a problem with mb um you're not gonna give me trash and beat at all i'm just bringing that number up because it's a big deal but there's a reason why that happens um you know that regular season playoff thing we've seen uh nobody's even gonna want to win defensive player of the year again uh because ben simmons is the best thing that we've seen. Nobody's even going to want to win defensive player of the year again because Ben Simmons is the best thing that's happened to Rudy Gobert probably all year long.

When I think about offenses that work, I thought Van Gundy had a great point in that Phoenix game. He goes, you know what? I don't know if we're ready to start printing up t-shirts that says the mid-range is back. But he goes, this entire defensive concept in the NBA now for years is protect the rim, run them off the three-point line. Well, you actually need somebody that can kind of live with those mid-range jumpers, whether it's Durant, Kawhi Leonard, a guy like Devin Booker, obviously Chris Paul. There's a few other names in there. I mean, it's not mandatory, but it changes things. The other problem for Philadelphia is forget the mid-range thing. As you said with Embiid, their primary offensive thing that they do is they have Simmons sort of pretend he's in the offense,

and they run some sort of handoff action where it ends up with the Seth Curry-Embiid two-man game. Now, Seth actually shot the hell out of the ball, set a playoff record for an entire playoff season from three. But to have Embiid, how many times can you have a guy, his size facing the basket, 17, 15 feet away. And I think with the double bigs with Capella and Collins, it makes it a little tougher to just go straight deep post, but you're asking him be to basically like,

Hey, we ran all this fake shit. You know what I mean? That's how I feel about their offense. It's action into inaction. We ran all this stuff and now in bead, it's you with 12 seconds. So figure it out,

buddy. Yeah. That's just, that's just with 12 seconds. So figure it out, buddy. Yeah, that's just that's just too much. And I don't know. Look, I think it's a combination of roster structure, but we just spent the first podcast praising the hell of Ty Lue. I defend Doc all the time, way more than you do. But this is kind of indefensible to not at least try some different things here. And they run the same thing with Ben, Seth, Embiid,

and it becomes really stagnant. And then everybody's waiting around for Embiid to save their ass every possession. And it's just not, it's not sustainable against good teams. They're running the 2011 Mavericks offense that Dallas was running with Dirk, who was one of the three greatest scoring forwards we've ever had in our lives and had completely mastered the top of the foul line

and what to do in every single situation. If you're going to single him, if you're going to double him, whatever, he had an answer. They still had a couple drivers, though. They still had a couple drivers. You know what I mean? Like, who actually can put the ball on the floor? I mean, Philly had Maxie.

They had, they tried to get Maxie. Think about what you're asking. I know. You're asking, like, where's Cork Moss? And they had Maxie out of control. I know. You're asking like, where's Cork Moss? And they had Maxie. Okay. That's what you're asking.

I just feel like they put Embiid in a tough situation, especially because he obviously wasn't healthy. The Embiid we watched in the first half of the season would have overpowered John Collins.

He couldn't. And I mean, the Simmons thing, again, I think we were two of Simmons' bigger defenders. No, I wasn't. Well, he was two for four and one for two from the free throw line when he got intentionally fouled.

He played 36 minutes. Do you know how hard it is to play 36 minutes and take four shots? Like, how irrelevant you have to be offensively. And he had, what did he have? 13 assists. It's just like, we see this every year in the playoffs. The playoffs slowed down.

It's just the way it goes. You're not getting transition anymore. You're not getting those coast to coast in February against your Orlando magic. Well, you are not getting back on defense. Well, yeah, you are if you're playing Philadelphia. But if you're Philadelphia, yeah, they didn't get back how many times? How many Trey Young half-court passes? You're ready for the place to explode.

And that's what I love from Trey is Trey's like, oh, really? You guys are like out here celebrating? All right, Collins is back there. I'm just going to whip it ahead here. So keep going. Well, it's just the playoffs are different. They never solved the half court thing other than a beat had to bail them out over and over again. And Harris had one of the worst eight for 24 as I've ever seen in my life because all of those shots were good shots.

They were what's up with him in the late nine foot nine foot bankers. And it was every time it was alligator arms. It was front of the rim. It was off the backboard too hard. It arms it was front of the rim it was off the backboard too hard it was he was all over the map they needed him to play a good game the hawks no bogdanovich i don't think the announcers like weren't focused on that enough bogdanovich was their second best player for a playoff series and a half and this came down to basically Collins, Herter, Young, Capella. And then who was the fifth?

I can't, I can't. Oh, Danilo. Yeah, Danilo hit a couple of big shots. So basically Herter had to fill the Bogdanovich stats, which he somehow managed to do with miraculous game seven by him. But just losing that second ball handler, you would have thought would have killed Atlanta. And it did not.

No, because Herter can do a lot more than you realize. Like there were times you thought like, oh, the Herter's not going to close the game now that they have these other guys out there. And if you watch it, you'd be like, oh, wait, like they're staying with Herter. I mean, Herter doesn't just make shots. He had like a paint jump hook floater. That was incredible. And Thibel, I mean, the biggest play of the game was thibault fouling oh and the three yeah they're down one there's still plenty of time left and thibault who actually all season long i thought one of the greatest traits of him was one of the few guys

who could contest shooters yeah and have enough body control to contest and not foul all the time and he hits him in the back of the head. I mean, he knew it immediately. Shocking he didn't complain. And then, you know, hurt her. He didn't care. He's been made fun of his entire life. Drains all three free throws like it's nothing. It's a four-point game. He looked paler than ever.

Yeah, he was almost like – I don't think he ever looked more pale. Could you guys want to make it more challenging? Because this is going to be too easy. I mean, then there's another play in there. As everything's falling apart, like Simmons and Trey have that almost turnover in the corner, and Simmons, the second time is fighting over the loose ball. Like Ben, who gives a shit? Cool. You guys are grappling over the basketball

again. You're showing more effort with this than any other thing you're doing on offense. Go to the basket like this. I think he had zero field goal attempts in, in the last four, fourth quarters. And then they're up excuse me atlanta's up but they're inbounding but it's still like 40 or 35 seconds left about there but you know so the shot clock is still in play and then philly fouls again and then doc is on the sideline going like what the hell is happening but i think you you pointed it out too like the whole thing's a mess we could just keep going on and on and on. The Simmons passing up the dunk and then was seeing the other angle of him bead being like,

what the fuck, what is he doing? That's one of those all timer moments. That's going to be one of those Philadelphia talk radio moments. That's going to live for decades. Seriously. I screenshotted the game with four 24 left in the third quarter. Hawk 64 Phies 63.

Ben Simmons was two for four at that point. So he didn't take a shot for the last 16 minutes. So that's four games in a row, I believe. But it's more than a fourth quarter. It was like Embiid didn't even play for part of that. Not only was he afraid to shoot, he was just afraid to go to the basket. And I felt like he had matchup advantages going to the basket. He was one of the best athletes on the floor. I, but after the game, I was immediately on three

different trade. Like I was in a legitimate text thread with Celtics fans about, could we get Ben Simmons for smart and Thompson? Would you do that? That's how far his trade value has fallen. He was the centerpiece of it. I don't know that it's fallen that far. I was just asking the question. Could we pull this off? Spartan Thompson, you know, smart's a leader. We need to get tougher.

Was the text thread Witt Grosbeck and Rich Gotham? My point is, so you actually think he will end up fetching more than people would think. Now, he is a clutch guy. Clutch is going to play a role in where he goes. He's not going to be going to Cleveland, I would guess.

My rule is this. In the moment, everything is too much. In the moment, minutes after we just saw this, as bad as it is, and it's real, I still hold out a little bit of hope that him away from, you know, a huge old-school center would open things up for him. I think we've seen it when they've been split up or when Embiid's been hurt, but the record isn't very good for Philadelphia when that happens. But his mental approach to the game right now is going to be,

I don't even want to hear about jump shooting. He's never going to take shots. But something is going on upstairs with him don't even want to hear about jump shooting. He's never going to take shots. But something is going on upstairs with him that gets you to pass there. So yes, I think all of us looking at it right now, it's hard to be positive about any of it. But in the moment is when we make our mistakes. Things are the best or the worst.

Things are irreparable. People are untradeable. In this case, this tapped into the deepest, darkest fears of Philly fans. The way this played out, game five and game seven was the lurking nightmare that they woke up thinking about at 3.20 in the morning.

It's like, honey, what's wrong? Nothing. I just had a dream that we blew a 25-point lead at home and Ben Simmons looked like he was shitting in his pants for the last four minutes of the game. I'm just going to go get a glass of water. I'll be right back.

This was it. This was what they were worried about this entire time that when push came to shove and the game slowed down and the spotlight got super bright, these two guys can't play together and they cannot. That's the verdict. You're not winning a title with these two guys. I listen, my old friend, Mike Lombardi, he, he does an NFL podcast, but

he's like a diehard Sixers fan. And in his last podcast at the end, he talked about the Sixers and Adnan just let him rant for three minutes. And he was basically like, we're going to lose. This team can never win a title. And he's like, this is about culture. The process is about culture. I'm paraphrasing. Sorry, Mike. Um title. And he's like, this is about culture. The process is about culture. I'm paraphrasing. Sorry, Mike. And he's just like, when you build something where you treat everybody like assets, you don't try to develop any sort of winning identity at all. And then you reward people when they haven't done anything.

What are you building? He's like, they gave him beat a max contract when he couldn't stay on the court. They gave Simmons a giant contract when he can, couldn't stay on the court. They gave Simmons a giant contract when he can't shoot and doesn't seem interested in learning how to shoot free throws. It's like, you're rewarding players that haven't done anything. And you're creating this culture where it's just, everybody's a success when you're not a success. And it's like, what is the process we'd ever made? He had this great rant. I encourage people to listen to it, but I agreed. It's like, we celebrate the process.

What did it lead to? They never got out of round two. They had a hundred top five picks. Okay. I agreed with a lot right until you get to the contract stuff because Embiid's a max guy. No, I know. I get it.

And Simmons at that point was a max guy. Uh, but you're right. You have to do the money. I get it. The process thing is really weird because I felt like it become like a real, it was like a cultural war. It wasn't a land war. It was, you know, I think people that are heavy, heavy into the analytics and, you know, looking at it like, oh, I, you know, I used to work in asset management and now I'm doing this. And Hinckley was, was a genius. And I think Hinckley did a lot of really good things, but But then I'd read other Hinky commentary with interviews and I'd be like, that's excessive. Like, I feel like Hinky gave you that quote because he wanted to seem like this really, really out there guy that was impressive. And I like Sam. I don't know him that well. We don't have any relationship now. But in the couple of times I ran into him, he was really cool and he was actually like way more open. And I was kind of like, man, you should be talking more. And that could have, that could have potentially saved him if he knew how to play the game a little bit more. But, um, then it just, it became this kind

of divisive deal where if you didn't trust the process, you were an asshole or you weren't. No, it was, and you weren't, you weren't smart. Yeah. You weren't smart is really what it was. Yeah. You're dumb. You don't get it. You don't get what smart is really what it was. Yeah, you're dumb. You don't get it. You don't get what the process is. It was like, I do get it. I just don't think you should lose for four straight games. I still thought they had a chance to come out of the easy because I liked all their bigs.

I thought that they did a better job overhauling the roster. I mean, they still had 20-point leads in four of the games. One of them was actually 18. But that's four games where they had 18 or more point leads and they lost two of them. So Philadelphia is still with their flaws, which is the lesson of this entire playoff when we're done with a champ here, which I think Atlanta, which I want to get to here at some point, because I think they have a real chance to win this whole thing, which seems crazy to say, and they deserve more credit. But when you're Philly and you're in year eight of this stuff and Trey Young in his third year just went further than you and eliminated you in your own place. Like, I don't want to be called an idiot if I'm not buying into the process

a hundred percent. And, you know, I think the Ben Joel debate was one of the things that it was like the divider line. You know what I mean? It was kind of like, well, wait a minute, where are you and Joel in bed? You know, they can play together, right? You know, they can, and you'd be like, eh, I don't know, but they could still win some games. They were one seed this year, but I don't know. I mean, maybe. But maybe they win, and they still don't look good together. You know what I mean? Because that would have been the weird thing that we brought up months ago.

They could have, you know, look, a couple bounces here, there. They win this one. Who knows against Milwaukee? What if Philadelphia were to win it all? Does it mean that it worked? Because it hasn't worked for four years. Here's the defense of the process. If they just stay at three in 2017 and take Jason Tatum,

the process looks brilliant because Tatum is exactly what they need, right? It was like a much, much higher level Tobias Harris, who somebody at the end of these games, now you'd have two guys you could go to and you could probably get away with playing Simmons with those two. But they did the

Fultz thing and that fucked it up. The Fultz thing. You're absolutely right, because, you know, the process, if you add up all the picks and then what you ended up with to end up with two foundational pieces is actually really good. But now we're learning that Simmons isn't that foundational piece. But we've also see this is where I got to push back, not on you, just in general. I'm not I haven't given up on Ben Simmons. I just want to see him go to a team that's his team. He's like basically the out-of-the-box five. Everything runs through him.

He's a center on defense, but he's floating around. And just, it's his team. And if they go 33 and 49 for two years, great. But let him learn how to be the guy, whatever situation they're in here. He's been kind of reinvented as like, he's this defensive ace. Who's a zero on offense and fourth quarter is when you actually need

him. Yeah. They, they, if he's the focal point of your offense and he's dribbling around and like creating stuff and just cause there's more space, like I don't necessarily see it happening. I mean,

he missed Orlando. Like let's say orlando is like cool we'll we'll roll the dice with ben simmons you can have one of our first round picks um that we got in that chicago trade and we'll give you something else cool we'll take them okay so what are we talking about we're talking about somebody then because i mean at one point you're trying to figure out like is this guy in all nba like that's the projection for him is he going to be a top 10 player that's all that stuff that was happening back then and um i think at this point you'd be thrilled if he's like the second best player on a on a decent team you know because he's still trying to second best player on this team i mean well seth curry ended up seth

curry yeah not when it mattered certainly not when it mattered how about this imagine if they didn't Was he the second best player on this team? I mean... Well, Seth Curry ended up being the second best. Not when it mattered. Certainly not when it mattered. How about this? Imagine if they didn't trade Curry for Richardson. Oh, my gosh. What would the team look like? Well, anyway, I don't think Simmons is going to be here.

That was a devastating, devastating loss. Can we take a break and talk about the Hawks? No, I just want... Well, I want to talk about the Hawks, but I do want to ask you this because it's a good point that you touched on. Fultz blowing up and going from surefire number one pick all season long, even though there were some teams that were like,

look, if you watch him in some of the international stuff, that's why everybody was so on him. And then by the time going into the physical and the pre-draft stuff, there were some concerns, but most teams would have taken him on. That's devastating. And then the Zyra Smith-Bridges trade is ridiculous. I mean, didn't Bridges' mom work for the Sixers and they still traded him?

It's retroactively worse than it was. I do feel like a year into Bridges' career, you probably could have traded for him pretty easily. Like about a year and a half into his career, I don't know how high his value was. I think he's been... Yeah. And this part of it's kind of irrelevant if we're going over draft misses here or there. The problem is, hey, you were the one seed. You were at home. It's year three with Trey Young. This team is basically like three months old in this version of it. Maybe more than that. Let's go March, April, May, June. Yeah. So four months old and you lost at home and they looked like they had zero fear. And you guys looked like you had

that same fear we've been seeing for years. 2018, they lose the Celtics series that they had a better team and they lost mostly because Embiid wasn't in shape. And that team just hadn't been there before. They weren't ready for it. And Boston just kind of out-thought, out-coached them and kind of stole the series, right? 2019 is their best chance because Jimmy's there. And, you know, Kawhi plays one of the great games and knocks them out. And now you look at this year, this was not,

I think probably out of those three teams, this was definitely not the best. This was their best chance, just the way the season had broken. But there was something wrong with the Sixers team. You could see it during these playoff games. Atlanta's not exactly a juggernaut, but they just didn't look right.

It's a missed opportunity. If there's ever a year to make the final four of the NBA playoffs, which we're going to talk about right after this break. This was the year. Let's talk Hawks in that right after the break. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance.

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Just search Movember. Quickly on the Hawks. Did that game make you like Trey Young more or less? Because I actually kind of like him even a little bit more because he was terrible, but I never felt like he lost his confidence. We've seen guys in situations like that, especially when you get to like two for 16,

two for 15, four turnovers, a technical. We've seen guys just exit stage right or just change how they play or hot potato it. The confidence that he had in the last five minutes was, I just think that's who he is. To me, I learned tonight, you can hit Trey Young with a two by four and he's going to get up. I'm with you. Um, you know, I have to separate the two things, but I've definitely learned through the Knicks series and 10 times more than that in this Philly series that, you know,

you're not, you're just not going to get to him. I mean, he's going to miss some shots. He's going to make some decisions here and there that you don't always love, but that's pretty much everybody that has the basketball the entire game. And he wasn't very good, but he never showed any signs that he doubted himself, where Philly's walking around waiting to lose, and Trey Young's out there expecting to win. And that made me respect him um a lot more so i i hate the fouling everybody knows it i've talked about it

constantly he did it to dwight he did the jump in front of dwight and almost got i thought dwight kind of ran him over on that one actually it was kind of like it was it was two annoying guys reaching an annoying that's one of the, I'll be honest. I thought Dwight just kind of, by the way, how about Dwight's flagrant because he gets mad. Yeah. And then it was like a run. How about Dwight playing?

Why is Dwight in this game? What are you doing, Doc Rivers? Doc did not switch it up. He did not. He went with the Harris bench guys. And when it's that, Harris tries to seek out a small player. And then when that action doesn't work, then everybody's kind of lost looking at each other.

But yeah, I have my respect for Trey, the toughness part, because I think it always is in the playoffs. You go, I mean, here we are looking at guys that are supposedly stars are supposed to be stars are projected to be some of these top players in the league.

And then they're not long-term legacy, but their immediate legacy, their day-to-day legacy has been trashed. So if those are the rules and that they're not long-term legacy but their immediate legacy their day-to-day legacy has been trashed so if those are the rules and that's what we're doing and even with trey shooting night you gotta if we're doing like updates like a facebook status here on players legacies you gotta update trey's to being like that's a guy i actually trust in a big moment now and we didn't know until we get to see it. And to go into Philly and be that guy, I have way more respect for him.

I didn't know. So go ahead. You have Simmons and Thibel basically taking turns on him. You have Embiid protecting the rim. And your shot's not going in. You're also a seven game series you've been playing every other day. something's going on with the shoulder. Cause every time he comes off there, like heating his shoulder or

doing whatever, but he kept coming and coming. What's funny about this is you'd think like, man, well, at least we don't have to play a team like that again. And now you go to the next round and you got drew holiday, who I think is the best defensive, you know, small guard in the league. They have him, they have the same kind of rim protection, stuff like that. So it's, it's not getting any easier for him, but I just think, and this is why I never thought he was like a great shooter. This is why the Curry thing drives me crazy. And this is why I keep saying he's more Nash 2.0 to me. What makes him special is like, he's kind of a shriek shooter. It's the playmaking that is what makes him special. And those lobs and the way the one-handed half court

passes, things like that. With his shot, it's like, it comes and goes. He can score 20 and a quarter, or he could go, you know, one for 14 and a half. I don't think he's a dead-eye shooter like Curry or Dame or any of those guys. He's not in that class. He can make 30 footers every once in a while, but I think there's this misperception with him. He's Steph, and he's just not. He's not the same shooter. He brings different stuff to the table. I forget what the

numbers were, but when he first started doing it, I was like, why is he doing this? Is he just doing it to show you can do it? It'd be like going to some of those pre-draft camps where I'd watch a center bring the ball up to court and pull up from 26 feet and clank it and then look at the scouts like, hey, I do it. It'd be like going to some of those pre-draft camps where I'd walk, I'd watch a center, like bring the ball up to court and pull up from 26 feet and clank it. And then look at the scouts like, Hey, I took it, you know, that's in my game. And he makes it, he makes, I don't know what the numbers are, but it feels like Trey makes them enough to keep you honest on it. But it was a body type thing. It was a, it was a skinny body guy who looks like he's 15 years old, just like

Steph looked like when he first came to the league. it's a it's an eye test similarity but shooting wise I mean look we shouldn't be comparing anybody to Steph this entire time here's the question I have for you though if Atlanta wins the whole thing well that actually look a championship's a championship but Atlanta winning it compared to the clippers phoenix or bucks winning it and i'll feel bad for atlanta on this one as bad as you can for a city that wins an nba title if it happens but that will lead to the most non-atlanta associated people being like okay well this championship's a total joke i mean if what just happened to the heat and some of it's a carryover like what you do the next year but if atlanta of the four ends up winning a title this title would be more disrespected than any of the other three teams

i'm not saying that's right but i think it's what happens i did all the work on this and i'm glad you brought this up i do i also agree with you that i think the hawks could win the nba title can you believe we're saying this right now well i need to know what I'm getting from Bogdanovich. Like, does he just, did he like tweak his knee or is it something where he's just not going to like cross them off for the rest of the series? We don't have 21 minutes tonight.

Not much. Didn't look, didn't look right. And in the fourth quarter, they didn't play him. But, um, I just think the way it's worked out where the 2021 postseason,

I thought Brooklyn and the Lakers were the two best teams. The Lakers end up at a seventh seed because it's a shorter season. LeBron gets hurt. Brooklyn loses Kyrie and Harden during that Bucs series and almost wins it anyway. And you think like what we talked about earlier, it's so clear now.

Brooklyn was by far the best team. The fact that they almost made it anyway is nuts. You have the Clippers who lost Kawhi. We don't know when he's coming back. You have Utah who loses Mitchell. Then he comes back. He's hurt. Playing well, but still not 100%. Then Conley misses the first five games and is a shell in the sixth game. You have Embiid with a torn ligament. You have the Suns who are completely healthy until CP3 gets COVID. We have no idea when he's coming back. You have the Warriors who ran off Klay Thompson all season. And you have Denver who loses Jamal Murray like a month and a half before the playoffs.

And I think could have been a sleeper in this. I went through and I was trying to find if there was ever a weirder postseason than this. And I'll give you the answer in a little bit, but I just wanted to lay that out for you. This has a chance to go down as the weirdest postseason we've had since 1978. And the reason I bring up 1978, which I'll go through later, Seattle makes the finals. Seattle had Dennis Johnson, Gus Williams as their backcourt, both young. They had Sigma as their center. He'd been in the league like two years. Lonnie Shelton, Marvin Webster, who's playing for this huge contract that the Knicks ended up giving to him.

It's a young team that was 5-17 and changed their coach, fired Bill Russell, hired Lenny Wilkins, and then got their shit together and just started taking down really good teams. And all of a sudden we're in the finals, went to a game seven and almost beat Washington. My point is, this has happened before where we look at a team like the Hawks like,

oh, they won't make the finals. That's crazy. And then it's just like, you know what? Sometimes you have fucking crazy years. So to answer your question, I think it's conceivable they could win what? Sometimes you have fucking crazy years. So to answer your question, I think it's conceivable they could win the title. I'm not predicting it. If I had to pick a team right now,

I would still pick the Clippers. I even, I assume Kawhi's going to come back at some point. But if you're telling me Kawhi might not come back, now I don't know who to pick. Because from what I saw from Milwaukee last round, they barely made it. I don't trust them either. I don't trust any of these teams, Russillo.

Yeah, when you were talking about like, well, hey, you get through Philly, but now it's Drew Holiday. Drew made some shots at the end of game seven. He did. But, you know, part of it defensively, it sucked when he got stuck with Durant because nobody's stopping him.

But then when it's just that much of a seismic match, even if you hold up and Drew's strong and he's stout and all that kind of stuff but i didn't always love the way drew played harden when harden came back in yeah it's like it's drew is he as a lead as he used to be defensively or is he a little bit older now because i feel like guys are going by him a little bit i just don't think he had like a good understanding of how to defend harden which sounds stupid because it's just two guys on the podcast so i regret saying it halfway through the sentence but you're like look harden's gonna get into you he can't really move so you don't have to worry like when you're playing right up on somebody that's usually because you don't expect them to go past you.

It's hard to play that close to Harden, though, because he's... He's so crafty. You're going to end up in fouls. Drew's in foul trouble. He's in foul trouble the whole time. And you're like, why are you contesting him like he's somebody that you're trying to contain when you're probably already going to be able to... I don't know.

It was just really weird. Or because he felt like he still had to worry about his, his, his shooting threat. But I think Cardin psychs dudes out. Yeah. I don't know. I just, I didn't love it. You ever watch video of when guys, when those guys can like grab a snake and you go like, wow, I don't, I don't watch those. You've never seen that on YouTube, YouTube, where they could grab a snake's head and you're like, wow, that was amazing. How did they have reflexes like that? I can't believe anybody can do that. I feel the same way. Anytime somebody's trying to guard hard and where they're close to him, because it just seems like he has 17 tricks to get a foul, right?

Well, because they call them all. You put your hand out, he immediately puts his arm underneath and throws his arm up play. The big one is he'll grab your arm and then pull you into him and then he flails backwards and you think like I just don't understand why the rest can't be like alright you got me that one but next time you do that same motion even if I can't seem

the arm hook I'm not giving you the call but they just keep giving it to him I think he psychs dudes out I think they don't want to get fouled then you're chasing him around on a screen. And Harden has this way of he brings you toward the guy who's screening. So then when the guy screens you, he jostles you and knocks you into Harden, who then flails. I've never seen anybody more successfully draw more types of fouls. Well, that one's ridiculous too, because you're

seeing something that's happening and Trey does it. I mean, these are the two culprits. They're not the only guys, but they're, they're the headliners. And that's why Woj's report that came out last week specifically mentioned Trey and Harden. But there's some of these calls now where I know this sounds stupid because you're not going to stop trying to go over screens against good shooters, but the way they'll call it, like there's sometimes I'm like, so what am i supposed to do now never go over the top of the screen because if the idea is that i can't make any kind of like contact as i'm fighting over the screen yeah then then i give up so that's uh look the hardened call for lopez i don't know i already mentioned this in part one i'm sorry if i did but capers reviewed it and it ended up being the free throws that made it 106,

104 in the Nets game that they won in game. Was it game five when Harden came back and Milwaukee didn't attack him the entire game? Yeah, I that that call was massive. And you're going, look, all he did was get into Brooke Lopez's body and then he fell down and you gave him the two free throws that put him up 106, 104 the end of the game like that's a huge huge moment I just wish the league would say hey if guys start falling down and you don't quite see what happened and it's also maybe going to decide I don't know fucking game five yeah maybe don't give don't give him the free throws because he didn't even have the ball the thing with holiday Trey Young traditionally is

the type of guy that he's been very good at shutting down. He's always played Dame well, people like that. Booker, he did a really good job on. I remember. So that could be a tough one. But talking about crazy postseasons, I mean, we should mention KD wins Game 7,

but his foot is on the line by what? Five inches? Five inches? No. Three inches? Centimeters maybe? He does the game winning shot. Doesn't matter. The Bucs win in overtime. Did you see the picture of Claxton,

by the way, when the bench is going crazy thinking they won the game and Claxton's just like totally deadpan holding up two fingers? Like that makes me think something's wrong with you. You're like,

hey refs, that was a two. That's like that commercial that never made any sense that I think was some religious school where it was like, Hey coach, it was off me. So we had that. We had to see that.

Okay. Which, which call, which commercial? Nothing. I was going to my next point. I know you were, I know I killed you I just did

I no sold one of your things Do it again I want to hear it Kyle leave this in Do you remember the ad Where no one could understand It when it was like a play It was like a high school game And there was an out of bounds and the ref like gives it To the team and

The team goes back to the huddle and the coach is like Alright you know we're going to win the game We're going to make sure what's going on and the team goes back to the huddle and the coach is like, all right, you know, we're going to win the game. We're going to make sure what's going on. And then the player looks at coach. He's like, coach, it was off me. And coach is like looking at him being like, there's a real lesson lesson here. It's a teaching moment. And the whole team's looking at the kid. And then the kid goes up to the ref for the first time in the history of fucking anything where he goes to the refs like, hey, it was off me. And the refs like, all right, balls the other way.

And then it's like, that's the lesson. And I think it had to have been a religious thing for bounty towels or it was for towels. Yeah, it was one of those one of the two things. And people have been fascinated with this ad for years. You've never seen this ad. I remember it, but it was it was what, 10, 15 years ago. Who's to say? Wow.

Scholars have argued it's timeless. Well, when you're talking weird post-season Katie wins the series, then he didn't Utah chokes up 25 in game six with no Kauai. And it's going back to game seven. They're going to win. Philly loses game, loses three games at home, including game five and game seven, including a game where they're up 20 plus with 15 minutes left. Coach Bud was fired. Rick Carlyle was the new Bucs coach, and then they ended up winning the series. Do you think if Durant's foot's behind

the line, Bud is the coach tomorrow? No. I think they fire him as he's walking off the court. And then you have the Suns who are in it. After game three against the Lakers, the Lakers were minus 800 favorites to win the series. They then you have the sons who are in it. After game three against the Lakers, the Lakers were minus 800 favorites to win the series. They were eight to one favorites to advance over Phoenix. And we've had this a few times in the playoffs where a good thing to remember gamblers for down the road, like maybe don't overreact after two games of some of these lines. Anyway, here's what happened in 1978.

Washington beat Seattle in seven games. This was the year Bill Walton, Portland was 50-10. Bill Walton was the best player in the world. They'd won the title year before. He hurts his foot. He goes out. They're 50-10 without Bill Walton. And ends up, doesn't come back. They lose to Seattle in six. Seattle

also beats LA back when they did the three-game series. Remember those? The best two out of three? Oh, yeah. They beat LA, and that was that Lakers season where Kareem punched Kent Benson and broke his hand

and was out for like 30 games. And then Kermit Washington gets in the fight with Tomjanovich, gets suspended for however long. They have to trade Kermit Washington. They get nothing back. You have this Lakers team that, in my opinion, the best four teams that year.

I actually did the research where the Lakers decimated, Portland, Walt goes down, and then Philly and San Antonio. So in the conference finals, everyone thinks it's going to be Philly and San Antonio or Philly and Denver. And it ends up Denver is in the conference finals against Seattle. And everybody's going, cool, Julius Erving against David Thompson. This will be amazing. It ends up being Washington, Seattle.

You could argue that neither team was a top five team that year. Not a top five team that year. Not a top five. So that to me, that's the weirdest one of all time that you have a team that went five and 17 and made game seven in the NBA finals that none of the top five teams are in there. But I think we're going to be remembering 2021

the same way. I think we're going to look back at this and be like, what the fuck? How? Look at all the stars that aren't in the playoffs as we're down to four teams. I think nine of the best

11 players in the league aren't in the Final Four. Yeah, I mean, we knew when it started it was going to be, what, the first new champ since Philly in 83? That was the most recent champ of the teams that were still alive going into these rounds. Go through the four now?

Milwaukee's last win was 50 years ago. Atlanta's never made the finals. Nothing. And Phoenix has been in the finals twice, right? So you have no title in the last 50 years for any of the four teams. And two of the teams have never made the NBA finals. If Paul is back, which he's going to be and Phoenix beats the teams have never made the NBA finals. If Paul is back,

which he's going to be and Phoenix beats the Clippers and beats whoever comes out of the East, there will be a, Hey, Chris Paul was always that dude love fest parade for him. Okay. And Booker will now be, Hey,

is he a top 10 player? Because those are the rules. If Milwaukee figures out some of their offensive stuff here, um, If Milwaukee figures out some of their offensive stuff here and turns it into a funneling tray into size versus size versus size, and Bogdanovich isn't healthy, and then Milwaukee beats whoever comes out of the West, I think there'll be a, hey, you guys were too hard on Giannis. And by the way, just in case Ben Simmons has a really nice round two game in 2022,

can we hold off on that internet Ben Simmons apology form that people already have ready to go? Because I mean, just remember tonight, we start printing those up on the old dot matrix. So I look, I'll tell you, I know what you're saying right now, but never underestimate the narrative part of kind of the big hug that we give everybody that ends up at the end where the atlanta one will be weird because it'll be so new that you're like wait what the hell's what just happened i think atlanta winning or the clippers winning without kawaii would lead people to think this was the dumbest not dumbest um the most incomprehensible playoffs we've had. Phoenix wins. You could talk yourself into a narrative of, well, maybe, you know, Chris was hurt those first three Laker games.

Maybe they were the best team all along. And if Milwaukee wins, now it's the narrative of, well, Giannis is the best player in the league. Yeah, I know. Isn't that weird? And we flipped that one. I'm going to read you.

So when we did our top 40 exercise last week, I had these players as the 11 guys that stood out. Kevin Durant, out of the playoffs. Jokic, out. Luka, out. Yonason, Embiid, out. Leonard, injured. LeBron, out.

Curry, out. Dame, out. Davis, out. Harden, out. So we have one of the top 11 is left, plus Kawhi, who's hurt. And then the next level was Tatum, Mitchell, Trey, Booker, Williamson. Two of those. Will someone write? Go ahead. This is the opposite of what we're told, right? Superstars win titles, superstars bring you to the finals. This is the opposite of what's happening okay but my other rule is this because something happened doesn't mean it's anything so whoever writes what you really want to do after this championship because atlanta is the only like they didn't have any all-stars and i think they're the

only team without yeah there's a there's a stat here i'll actually pull it up because i i saved it but atlanta making the conference finals, the second team in the current playoff format without an all-star since the Pacers in 1994. And even that playoff format is actually a little different. So you go all the way back to 84, Pacers was the first team ever to do it. But you could still argue it's not the exact same playoff format

because of the first round and the extent of games. Well, can you imagine being a Hawks fan? As we covered in part one, not a lot of positive Hawks memories since they got to Atlanta. You had the Neek Bird shootout. You had a couple of 90s teams that were frisky. Josh Smith draft night.

Joe Smith. The Joe Smith Horford. Joe Smith. The Joe Smith Horford. Josh Smith. The draft suit. I'm just here to win championships. There was a 60-win Hawks team at one point. We covered that. This is the greatest, I think, moment in the history of the Hawks.

Not counting St. Louis. Bullet Bob Pettit. No? I'm with you. because it's their guy. I mean, they got dumped on forever. I mean, Trey Young's perfect for the city now

because he's the guy that got laughed out of Summer League. And every Hawks fan that's been coming for our heads for years now. I mean, those guys are

you can't. I'm on the bandwagon. Plus, I have them at 80. I have them at 85 to one to win the title. How many people can say that? Oh my God. Is his dad started tweeting at us yet?

No. Rayford, we're on your side, buddy. We're we, we love your son. Your son won us over. It's fine.

It was a rollercoaster ride, but he loves over. Love would be strong. I respect the hell out of him. I respect that as well. Uh, weirdest post seasons. Just quickly. Actually,

let's take a break and I'll run through this fast. What does possible sound like for your business? It's having the spend to powers your scale with no preset spending limit, more cash on hand to grow your business with up to 55 interest-free days. And the ability to reach further with access to over 1,400 airport lounges worldwide. Redefine possible with Business Platinum. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. We got to talk Bucks Nets.

Weirdest post seasons. 2015 was pretty weird. Golden State over the banged up Cavs. KD had a broken foot. Clippers choked. The 60-win Hawks made the Final Four and then got annihilated. The 1999, the lockout season.

I do feel like when I look at some of this stuff, I'm always like, did the right team win? And for the most part... The lockout Knicks won is a good one. Because, I mean, Miami had the best record in the East. They're the one seed. But the Knicks had lost Ewing for some time. It was the first year...

Canby came in. ...he missed time. Latrell had missed some time. And then Ewing got hurt in the finals. I think the Knicks scored... Eastern finals, he got hurt. That was the premiere of the Ewing theory. That theory. And a reader sent me this long email about this is going to be good for the Knicks. I call it the Ewing theory. And then they made the finals, but I still feel like

the right team won. The Spurs are really good that year. So I don't feel like that's that crazy of a season. I only think it's weird when, you know, when you look at like the wrong team one. So like in 1981, the Celtics were the best team, but the Western finals had the 40 and 42 Rockets against the 40 and 42 Kansas city team. And it's like, well, why did that happen? The Lakers lost the best two out of three to Houston. And then this goofy Kansas city team just beat Portland and Phoenix. And all of a sudden we had two 40 and 42 teams in the West final.

So that was weird. And then the 1976 Boston, again, the Suns making the finals was weird. But most of the time the right team wins. We don't leave it going, wow, I can't. It's not like when Leicester City won in soccer and people were like, oh my God, I can't believe. Or in the NFL, sometimes that'll happen, right? There'll be some team you're like, wow.

The Ravens. Like Sebastian Vettel winning a Grand Prix today. Great one. Great. I was just about to say that. Joe Flacco winning the Super Bowl. That's one of the all-timers. Wow, I can't believe it. But remember, Flacco.

We don't have that in the NBA. Flacco, I'll never forget Merrill Hodge. Monday, SportsCenter, in studio. Give me your top five quarterbacks in the NFL. Joe Flacco, number one. And I went, see, this is my rule of the moment. In the moment, we're just, it's too much. It's too much. We just- Did Eli Manning second? I don't know. I don't know who he had, but Flacco was a different guy for a month. That's another one, the 2007 Giants. That stuff doesn't happen

in basketball, but this year it might happen. We might have like a Hawks might be the 2007 Giants as weird as that sounds. Three-point shooting would be NFL defense in this scenario or a pass rush. Even Miami in 06, my point had always been if you got to pick one of the worst teams to win the finals in the last 20

years, that team got swept the next year, but it wasn't like they were bad. Wade was one of the three best players in the league. They had Riley. They still had Shaq. They had some vets. The Warriors 15 won. When you look at... They won a million games. They won

67 and 15 that year. There's that. And then Kyrie plays really only that one game. But Cleveland... Love was hurt too. Love had already been hurt, obviously, in the Boston series. But that was also...

You remember, Golden State went down 2-1 to Memphis and people were kind of like, they were anti-Golden State. We're like, see, this is what happens. You hit him in the mouth, completely ignoring all of Golden State's defensive statistics.

And then they rolled through them. Houston came back in that weird series against the Clippers. And then they rolled through them. Houston came back in that weird series against the Clippers. And then they completely took care of... By the way, I was looking at that. Harden's second scores, that was when it was still... They were trying to figure out the Dwight-Harden combo

and who was going to win the locker room and the Kevin McHale stuff. And those two guys were dividing the locker room and Howard wanted more touches and all that kind of stuff. But like it wasn't wrong that Golden State won. It was just suck

that Cleveland was that hurt. Well, then KD had the broken foot that year too. Like their major guys either missing or their teams self-combusted for weird reasons.

There's usually always one or two though. It's usually not all top 10 players except for one. This is a surreal postseason. Absolutely. Bucksnets.

So, it's weird to think that the story coming out of a series was a guy in the team that lost, but I just thought Durant was so unbelievable in that series. I actually moved him up my all-time rankings. Okay, where? I jumped

him over a couple people. Give me your updates then. I got to know this. I got them 10th. I moved them up to 10. I had them jump a couple centers. You jumped Moses? Moses and Shaq and Hakeem.

I couldn't believe I was doing it. I just think like, I was looking at, I'm looking at my list and I'm like, how do I only have one guy from the last 20 years in the top 12? When basketball, we all agree, is probably harder to play now and is played at a higher level these days because of the shooting.

I've even had people that played in the 80s and 90s are like, the shot making is just better now. Like anybody from my era who says that it's not is fooling themselves and the stuff to rant, you know, you think like what he was doing in 2019 and what he was doing this year. And the fact that really he should have, I think four rings, I think they would have won in 19. And I think they would have won easily this year. And that's the woulda, coulda, shoulda thing you can do with every player. But he has two rings and people are going to hang them that he chased them. Golden State, he joined 73 win team, all that stuff. But he really should have won this year too. And in 2019, and he's one of the best two way players I've ever seen. It's one of the best scoring scores, period. He's the best scoring

forward I've ever seen. And that shot he hit, which the announcers missed. So they're down two. He's dead because he's played 48 minutes. Played 48 minutes four nights before. He knows he has nothing left in the tank. They're coming out of a timeout. They call a play for him to shoot a three

because he's like, I don't know if, I'm guessing, didn't talk to him. He didn't have anything left in the tank for overtime. It's like, I don't know if I'm guessing, didn't talk to him. He didn't have anything left in the tank for overtime. It's like, we have to win this game now. Let's run the play where you throw me the lob and I turn around, I do a 25 foot fucking turnaround and he fucking drained it. And the only thing that he didn't win the game on was because the tip of his toe was over the line. That was unbelievable. It was one of the greatest shots in the history of the league. But his foot was on the line.

And I think you could tell from his body language that he didn't have an overtime in him. I don't think anyone, by the way, no one on the court had an overtime in him.

I was worried Giannis was going to like pass out. Giannis was about as tired as I've ever seen a superstar. He was like almost keeled over some of those dead balls. Well, he got subbed out early and Jared Greenberg, who was reporting on it, he tweeted

out immediately. He's like, hey, Giannis is gassed. Like he could see him. And then we saw a video coming back from the commercial where you could see, and by the way, both networks are making up for all the commercial stuff in a big way. Like we're coming back late and then some of these sideline reports, we get the're coming back late and then some of these sideline reports are

we get the in-screen thing and then you miss two possessions like just have it be audio over the game have have have the coach right be audio over the game because it just kind of sucks when you get the smaller box then the major announcer the main announcers can't call the action he's like you'll miss some possessions it drives me crazy so So we saw video of Giannis just gasping, and you're like, all right. I don't know if Durant planned on the turnaround. I think it was just kind of like, I got to create. I got to try to get free and get any kind of space whatsoever.

No, you got to watch again. That was a set play. I'm not saying it wasn't a set play. They were specifically trying to do that. And I think he wanted to take a three. I really do. I'm not saying that he didn't want to take a three. I'm saying on the turnaround part of it, it was so hard.

It was such a difficult shot. Right. I don't think that's what he wanted to do. I got to go back and look at it again then. But I felt for Durant because he had no help. Joe Harris couldn't make a shot. Harden, who was actually okay and a little bit more aggressive, looked the healthiest he had been all week. And he, you know,

look, another Harden flame out in a big spot, but he's going to get the pass because of the hamstring. But when I said, hey, I kind of feel for Harden because I still don't know what to do with Milwaukee, I completely underestimated the reaction for the Nets' hate. I feel like Durant didn't have any help game seven.

You said you fell for Durant, not Harden. Yeah, I fell for Durant. Yeah, right. Good correction there. I fell for Durant because of game seven, but then it turned into, oh, well, he picked this team. And they were like, hey, hey, hey, I'm in the moment guy right now. Okay, that's all I'm doing.

And people still like they let their hatred for him going to Golden State and then Brooklyn get in the way of appreciating him. It's very different. It's very different from just straight hatred for a different player. I don't know. It was one of the most heroic game seven, like just losing a series in seven games performances. Like in 1969, Jerry West won finals MVP, even though his team lost in seven to the Celtics and Havlicek should have won the MVP. It's kind of a travesty, but West was so good in that series that they were like, ah, let's give it to Jerry. He can't win the title. At least he could have this. It was stupid.

Durant was the MVP of this series. And yet I was so impressed by Giannis because look, Giannis, I, it goes back to that 90, 10 thing we talked about sometimes when I wrote that Westbrook column about everybody's got the 10% that kind of is you can nitpick with. And for some guys, it's more glaring than other guys. Giannis is 10% is the most glaring right now of any superstar. But I don't know if you can ask for more from your best player in a game than what he did. It seemed like every time they threw him the ball on the left side, he either got a shot for himself

or created a shot for somebody else. And I think the only reason they weren't doing it every time was because he was so dead. So that was when they would run like Chris Middleton action, stuff like that. Holiday was a no-show. Lopez was pretty good for him. Other than that, they had

nobody that you trust. They basically had three and a half guys. And Giannis was in the mid-30s every game. He was an unbelievable athlete stuff, quarter after quarter after quarter. And there was that weird storyline about why isn't he guarded Durant? It's the fourth quarter. You got to come out and guard him. It's like, do you guys see all the shit Giannis is doing? Like this guy is playing 40 plus minutes a game and he's doing everything.

Like we can't also ask him to guard the best player on the other team. I thought Giannis was great. And, uh, you know, I, I think that that was a career changer for him. Cause I think if they go out in round two,

it looks a lot like the Sixers part of the podcast that we did at the top where we're like, the process is dead. Like, we're just like, we're coming in with conclusions. If Giannis is out in game two, I think, or round two again, I think we would have had to make some conclusions from that. And they fended it off. And now, you know know they should win the east

unless they really fucked us up and when you look at the seven game stats 32 13 and almost four assists throwing a block 57 from the floor overall um the free throw percentage thing is a problem 48 but the difference is is you know like when you're if you had the spectrum of players like he has more of the ben simmons lacking skill part of his offense than like a durant when that whole durant controversy gets started up like you can kind of watch in that series why a guy like durant would be like don't ever compare me to him even though durant said he never said it um i i guess i'm still a little worried, even though you read those numbers back,

you're like, what the hell's the problem with you guys? But I'm telling you, there are playoff series that you'll watch and you'll be like, I don't know, this guy wasn't as good or this guy wasn't as good. And then a couple of years removed, you'll look back at the seven game line and you're like, oh my God, that guy was crazy.

Like, how come everybody beat up on him? And you're like, well, who's right? The numbers guy or the guy that remembers watching it going, maybe you're watching it with some sort of biased lens which is also another problem but I love that Giannis cares I love that he fights his ass off you know I think those parts are real like they're when you want to say oh his limitations offensively trend more to Simmons at least Simmons like Simmons is checked out we learned that multiple times and never more than game seven. Giannis would never do that, right? Giannis would never do that.

But I'm still just a little afraid of that left extended. It's not on the block, but it's on the left side, you know, kind of at the angle, 10, 12 feet out. And it's like, all right, figure something out. And it's usually just his physical gifts get him the angle. I felt like in game seven, he kind of got it going from that side though. He did. He was either going into the jump hook or he was just drop stepping into like a layup or dunk. You made the key point. He really, really, really gives a shit and he's really competitive and we can pick apart flaws of a lot of great guys

Shaq had them I think Shaq's 12th or 13th best player of all time the dude had real flaws he couldn't stay in shape he would disappear sometimes on defense smaller teams could pull him out and fuck with him when he was on defense and he didn't want to get fouled in the last 4 minutes

which is why Kobe was so important and yet he was like the 13th best player ever. I think with Giannis, if your foundation is this guy gives a shit as much as anyone else on the court and this guy is not afraid of this game in any way, shape, or form, like he airballed two free throws in that game and still made big free throws down the stretch.

Like he wasn't afraid of the game. And, you know, he's only 26. He's been playing basketball. What? Since he was 12, it feels like there's room for him to grow. And I thought that was a huge test for him. I really felt like he gave every single ounce of his body to that game.

And I don't know how you can criticize that. So he's a huge winner and Durant's a huge winner. And then Lopez. That block he had on Durant was one of the biggest plays of the game. He had another block in there earlier too, but you know, the second one was so huge. Go ahead. Coming off a disastrous inbounds. I mean, they had.

Oh my God. What the hell was that? That wasn't even Lopez's fault. It was just the whole play was bad. That was the right corner. If you were trying to remember here, There was like two seconds, maybe one eight on the shot clock. Go backwards. They

run a whole 24 off, get a terrible shot, but somehow get a rebound. Holiday freezes for like 10 seconds for reasons that remain unclear, and then gets a terrible thing. It goes out of bounds. So now they've spent 36 seconds to get nothing, and then they have to throw it into Lopez. When didn't you think they were just going to have

Giannis cut into the basket, like a tight end. Okay. Well, they tried the ball and traffic. The announcers were like, Hey, look, Blake Griffin, to his credit, he battles his ass off. Yep. That guy holds on every single play. I mean, he had a play the first bucket, the net scored in overtime, it was an offensive rebound, I think, and Blake was behind Giannis, and he just ripped him to the ground, and they never even called it, and Giannis is sitting there with his hands

up, going like, are you serious? So, on that inbound, if you watch it, he's on the right free-throw side, not, you know, he's the right side of the lane, not the free-throw line, and Giannis looks like he has an open cut, but Blake is just grabbing him. And that's where I think the inbound, I think it was Drew

freaked out a bit and then just kind of panicked. Right. And Brooke catches it. And I think, I think Brooke, it's a brutal spot to put them in, but I also don't think Brooke knew that there was still like less than two seconds left on the shot clock because he actually like thought about making some sort of move and then threw it up and you're just like, all right, so the bucks are going to lose this one.

So yeah, I'm sorry. Like they're up for it too. They're up for net score. Come down. You waste 38 seconds. You don't get a shot at all. And that leads to Durant with his foot on the line.

And if he makes that shot with his foot, not being on the line, the bucks lose that goes down in history is one of the worst last minute losses. You know, we're, we're comparing that to Kings Lakers game seven Oh two and Blazers Lakers 2000 and all like the worst losses ever. It's, it immediately moves in there. Yeah. And then drew, if you look at his numbers, um, 36% from the floor for the, for the series. But how crazy was it that when they really, really absolutely had to have him,

he made three shots in a row. He was like, remember that? In the fourth quarter, it was like, all right, if he doesn't do anything, they're going to lose. And then just miraculously, he made a three and a floater and something else. And that was really all he did offensively

the whole game. But it was like the only time that they really needed him or they're going to lose. Cause Giannis was dead at that point. Yeah. But like where Trey was missing shots in game seven and you go, okay, he's going to hit some and it still looked fine. Even though he's missing everything. When he hit the side of the backboard,

when it looked like he didn't know what he wanted to do, I felt like mentally. So that was a great recovery from him. And hopefully it's kind of one of those deals where like, Hey, you got lucky you got through an awful series, but even, you know, you can't overlook Atlanta here, but you got to figure he's going to, he's going to revert a little bit back to a guy that keeps you honest with a shooting. And he did not do that against Brooklyn. I'm going to talk a little bit more about this game, but let's take one more break. All right. Bucks netsNets, Game 7, which we've had seven Game 7s ever went into overtime.

Did you know this? Only seven in the history of the league? Yeah, I knew it was a low number because it had been a long time, right? 1957 Finals, Celtics beat the Hawks, 3-0-2. Tommy Heinsohn fouls out, cries on the sideline. They win anyway. 1962 Finals, Frank Selvey's shot. He's going to win it for the Lakers. Tommy Heinsohn fouls out Cries on the sideline They win anyway 1962 finals

Frank Selvey's shot Is going to win it for the Lakers He misses Celtics win an OT 1990 semifinals Portland-San Antonio That was the one where Rod Strickland did the crazy pass

Threw it to nobody Portland ends up winning 1993 semis Houston beats Seattle 2002 Western Conference Finals People forget this 1993 semis, Houston beats Seattle. 2002 Western Conference Finals. People forget this. Lakers-Kings in Sacramento goes to OT.

And the Kings played the end of the fourth and OT with their hands wrapped around their necks. 2006 semis, Dallas-San Antonio. We actually did a book of basketball podcasts about this. This game's unbelievable. It's the one where Dallas is down 20 seconds left. They're three-point play. Ties it. Go to OT.

They win. And now we have this Milwaukee-Brooklyn game. I think what was really unique about this game and made it, in my opinion, an ESPN classic game, even though it wasn't necessarily the greatest played game I've ever seen was I can't remember seeing guys more tired on both sides when we knew there was five more minutes of basketball because it felt like everybody was tired in the fourth quarter. It started to look like a prize fight. Like one of my favorite rant, like, as you know, I like to go on YouTube sometimes and watch old boxing matches and snake grabbers. Yeah, and snake grabbers. Holmes Norton,

late 70s, where they're fighting for the vacated title in the last couple rounds. They're both dead and they're just throwing haymakers and it looks like the end of Rocket. They got nothing left.

And sometimes you have those boxing fights where both guys are dead. They still have to fight two more rounds and they're just like basically throwing all arm punches.

That's what that Nets Bucks game. It was actually like a really poorly played overtime, you know, for the most part, because both teams were just dead. At one point, it looked like the Bucks weren't going to score in the entire overtime. And then they finally got stuff at the end.

But I just, I've personally never seen a basketball game like that. You've seen it like triple OT. Like if you watch Celtics Suns from 1976, by the third overtime, guys are sitting on the floor between free throws and shit like that. But in modern era, no, I can't remember.

Think about this. As you just said, the last bucket in regulation was with 154 left. Drew Holiday makes a jumper. They did not score a field goal again until 112 left in overtime so they went almost six minutes without a bucket and brooklyn scored two points total in overtime so you're absolutely right and duran duran was done i mean he and you can't ever nobody's allowed to

hang his oh for four or whatever he did in the overtime because the guy had nothing left. And I really honestly believe that's why they went for the 3 at the end because I think he knew. And what he did, 5, 6, 7, the amount of minutes that he played, having to also protect the rim, be the number one rebounder on his team, and then basically create every scoring chance was nuts. So a couple other things from, oh, I got to criticize my guy Nash a little bit.

I love Steve Nash. I just think when you're game seven at home, your biggest advantage is your energy bench guys for little five minute spurts. Cause I think bench guys feed off that crowd. You saw it with Terrence Mann in the Clippers game. Not that he's, I mean, he's more than a bench guy, but there's, there's an energy thing that you can kind of tap into and they have guys who can do that. Claxton, Tyler Johnson, uh, TLC. I I'm throwing those guys out in the

second quarter for four minutes to see if I can get, go on a little run, try to change the pace. There was, if you look at the amount of free, how many field goals did Brooklyn have in that game? Like just total. Because one of the things they did was they slowed it down to the point

where the possessions were like, They had 84 attempts to 98 for Milwaukee. 84 attempts in a overtime game. Think about that. So they were like in the seventies for regulation, which the way basketball is played now, usually the teams are in like the high eighties. Um, I just would have brought in energy guys. And then I also thought they should have called a timeout with, uh, in the overtime because their guys were dead with 11 seconds left. They got the ball back timeout. the overtime because their guys were dead. With 11 seconds left, they got the ball back. Timeout. They had one. Set up a play. Give Durant three minutes of rest. It's going to actually be five minutes because you're going to get all the TV timeouts. Normally, I'm in favor

of let your best players decide the game. This is why you have practice. But in this case, get Durant a rest. And I bet he would do that over again if he had to. I'm surprised though, to hear you saying you, you'd rather see a bunch of guys out there that, um, you know, aren't ever comfortable in that moment before. I'm not disagreeing with anything else you've said. I want energy. Just give me four minutes of just give me some energy and see if I can get the crowd, you know, ignite the game in a slightly different way because I know the Bucks are only playing seven guys. So I'm saving my guys for a couple of minutes and I'm just energy pressure. Have Tyler Johnson guard Drew Holiday full court for three minutes. I think you can do that when you're home. That's my only case. I'm watching the shot

again right now. Yeah. I still can't believe that was their inbound with 2.1 on the shot clock. Which one? On the Lopez screw up, which was kind of everybody collectively. Yeah. I think they just threw it to Durant and he kind of got turned around as he was driving on PJ Tucker. So I don't think the turnaround had anything to do with it. I would agree with you about the three-pointer, but I'd also say that we kind of joke throughout the year that there was some rule pass that when you're down two, it doesn't count unless it's a three. Yeah. Can I give you, my buddy Hench said this to me, Kyrie's last five years. Oh, this is going to, I was looking at this because Bobby Marks did an incredible contract extension piece

up on ESPN.com that I'd like to throw a couple numbers at you. But yeah, go ahead because I know where this is going. Game five, Golden State suck. 2017 finals. 2018 injured.

2019 is just horrific in the Milwaukee series. 20 and 21 injured. Now the injury this year wasn't his fault. I'm just pointing out that's half a decade and 2016. He hits one of the great shots in the history of the league. And it goes beyond that. Cause people are always like, Oh, I hit the shot. It's actually like, if you're going to really talk about that 16 team, it's gotta be game five, six, and seven. Cause game five, him and LeBron, they both went over 40.

Yeah. What those guys did. No dream on, no dream on, but that was like outrageous game six, same thing. So I feel like he almost gets shorted on that series for how unbelievable he was. But you got to say since then, like his career has kind of been disappointing for what the potential of it seemed to be in 2016 right now some of that's bad luck he changed teams he had some injuries but now what is he well i don't think i don't think it's unfair to go hey your last half decade of playoffs have not ended well yeah um because of your inability i'll throw

this at you pointing it's pointing it out. With his movement and how great he is and what a great combination. Smaller guys can just survive in this league that we've seen in a way that we weren't ever really used to. I think he's so slight now. I wonder what his diet is. I wonder if he...

Clearly, the basketball skill part of it it he's one of the most incredible specimens like he's as special on some of the technical stuff that we've ever seen his footwork the handle yeah shot creation finishing against big guys but like we saw steph bulk up this year because he kind of knew he had to take it on i wonder if that's in kairi's training regimen you know i wonder if there's any part, because he looks really skinny to me. He looks almost malnourished at times.

You think he's on some weird diet? Just Johnny Cakes? You think my son could take him in a wrestling match? My son is fucking jacked right now. I'd like to know how many... That'd be a good segment. We did that once on local radio in Boston. How many Red Sox could you beat up?

Could you beat my son up? My son is now five, seven and a half and he's fucking ripped and I think he could officially beat me in a fight. Yeah, the Kyrie thing is just like, wow, that's half a decade where you look back and there was so much promise coming out of the 16 finals. We didn't really get there.

The Joe Harris thing. I don't know how you bring them back. I know they will. And I know there's a whole Joe Harris hive and people, Oh, you got to read a bad series. But we also saw him do this at the world championships. Anytime there's ever been pressure basketball,

he sucked. And at some point you got to wonder like, is, is, is regular season Joe different than playoff Joe? Because if he plays even decent in this series, I think they win. If Kyrie plays all seven games in this series, they definitely win. And if all three guys play in this series, it's not close. All Joe Harris has to do is hit one more shot in game seven and they win.

So Kyrie, definitely. I mean, Ky about game four? What about game four? What was the game when he was over? Oh, game three. He was one for 11 and all 11 shots were wide open. I actually, you could argue that you're going to love this. I would have played Jeff Green over him down the stretch. I didn't think Joe Harris's shots were going in. When he's taking him, if I'm a Bucs fan, I'm like, great, Joe Harris is shooting. It's not going in. Yeah, but usually those guys, I can't believe you went world championship on him. What? You went world games on Joe Harris.

He sucked. He's really bad. He couldn't make a shot. Maybe he never traveled internationally before. Where were they? Who would you have rather had if you were betting on the Nets in that game? Jeff Green or Joe Harris? Game seven.

I've seen Jeff Green do it at least. With a minute left, you have? Here's my last question for you. I think he had some big shots with Houston though recently. So maybe Ice Green? Is KD the best player of the last five years? So we go 2017, 18, 19, 20, 21. If I just said, who is the best player of the last five years?

Who would you say? LeBron. So you'd have LeBron even with this season and the season in 19 when he basically took the year off. Yeah, because Durant missed a full one and then a chunk of this one too. Playoffs was here. So he's four out of

four to five post seasons. Went toe-to-toe with LeBron. I'm just asking. The last five seasons counts the 16 finals, right? No, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21. All right, all right. Math.

If we're just breaking down, like if we're going backwards, who are the best player every five years? So that's three finals? That's three finals and a title for LeBron? Yes.

And it's 17, 18. It's two titles, two finals for KD. Two and a half finals because he makes it in 19. It's closer than I thought. As you first said it, because I'm thinking about... It's closer than you thought, right? Right, because Durant's missed so much time.

Because you can't sit there and say, hey, LeBron basically took that season off when, for the most part, he's certainly more durable than Durant is. Because the funny thing is, once you start going backwards and you just do five years, five years, five years, 12 to 16, it's definitely LeBron.

No question. 2007 to 11, it's Kobe. Which is weird because he only won one MVP during that. And by the way, that's justified. It's not like, how did Kobe not win more MVPs? He's got two titles in there though, right? Yeah, that's two titles in there. 02 to 06, it's definitely Duncan.

If you go 98 to 02, it's Shaq. Then it's MJ basically the rest of that decade. You go backwards and you start arguing about Magic Bird, shit like that. But it's just weird the rest of the decade. You go backwards and you start arguing about magic bird, shit like that. But it's just weird that the last five years we didn't have a distinctly best player because usually we do. Usually you can point to like,

oh, that guy was definitely the best. I think Durant, LeBron is neck and neck. And maybe LeBron gets the edge because Durant misses a season, but I don't know. Yeah, it is close. It's a lot closer. Yeah, you like that one. I'm glad I won you over.

Yeah. I mean, Kawhi, it's kind of tough to argue it with the time. Yeah, so I'm not even going to. I'm just trying to think out loud here on the fly. Also, from a one-man show standpoint, I thought what Durant did was really special. Like, as I've said a million times,

my favorite bird season ever was the 87 Souths when everybody was hurt and he was just one man show bird. It was awesome. That's like the last piece that the, the Pantheon guys can go one man show, you know, and that, that is something like when we talk about Giannis,

that's the one thing he doesn't have. He'll never have that level where he can be like, I've got it, guys. I will navigate this entire game for us. Get on my back. He can carry people on his back, but he's still going to need the second guy. Anyway.

Let me ask you this then. Yeah. All right. Because I don't know how much more you, is there something else you still want to do? Nope. Okay. Will you ever vote Rudy Gobert

defensive player of the year again? No. To me, this, it reminds me of, remember there was that year when it was the first year Kidd made the finals. There was a huge argument about Kidd versus Duncan for MVP. 2002? Yeah.

It's back and forth. I thought it was ludicrous. I was making fun of it. I think as it was happening. I think I was, who knows? It was 20 years of it. I think as it was happening. I think I was. Who knows? It was 20 years ago. But then,

so Kid finished second. You were in your prime back then. I've, God, my fingers worked back then. The year after, Kid makes the finals again, basically as the same season

he had the year before, but finished ninth. And it was like, what was different? It was just like, people are like, wow, Duncan really proved he was the best. What were we thinking doing with that kid thing?

And everybody was just like, I'm off kid, I'm out. And I think Gobert and Simmons will be the same for defensive player of the year. It would almost like, you'd have to come up with defensive stats that would show that they were so clearly dominant to everybody else

that there's almost no way to avoid picking them. Because I said after Curry, they blew the 3-1 lead. I go, this is the kind of thing where he'll never win the MVP again. And he hasn't, but I also didn't expect this kind of year. I wasn't going to say, but you know what? In five years, there'll be this weird Warriors season where it's shortened. We'll be coming out of this national and global pandemic and clay will be hurt and he's going to put this like run

together where he leads the league in scoring and everybody loves steph again and it's still efficient so you know that was kind of a hard one to predict five years ago but your kid duncan argument is perfect because that's what's going to happen here. Like who's going to vote Ben Simmons, all NBA. Is anyone going to do that next year? Remember there's a page a year or two where he got like first or second team on VA. And then people were like, Ooh, what did we just do? And that was it. He was out. I forgot to tell you this. I thought her tonight looked a little page. He was in the page, the page of vortex, Pagia. He was in theay. The Pajay vortex. Pajay. He was in the Pajay kind of vicinity with some of those moves, right?

The coming off screen threes, the little post up from 15 feet. He was like pale Pajay. I think that's low. I think it's a low ceiling, but I'll take it. Pajay was really good. He was all NBA.

I like Pajay. He got some MVP love that year too. all NBA. I like Peja. He got some MVP love that year, too. All right, I got a couple more. Will you ever say Giannis is the best player in the world? I mean, not this year. I think Durant clinched the title, even though they lost. I think there's...

There was stuff going on with him on the left side in that game 7 That I think they're going to look at the tapes By the way, alright, here's the thing The bloggers out there Who break down the games Do the breakdown stuff Do a breakdown of when they went to Giannis On the left side And they cleared out for him

What the points per possession was on that I guess maybe I could do that on second spectrum. I'll look at that tonight. I thought it was unstoppable. The net. I wonder if they tapped into something with that, moving all the shooters away and just giving him the whole side. Yeah.

They've done that with him before. I never saw them do it at crunch time like that before. Like just like where it was that unstoppable. I felt like he'd figured something out. I'm not, I'm not kidding. All right. Last one. Will you ever vote Westbrook all second team defense again?

Was that, wait, was that you? Was that me? Who is that, Marv? Was that Marv's farewell bar? I think it was Wilbon. I'm hoping Wilbon says there was a second voter theory. That's a tough one. I like who was the German guy who voted Westbrook third for MVP. He didn't have Jokic.

He didn't have Jokic in his top five. Like how does the NBA, the NBA, do they email him and go, Hey, they got to take the vote Westbrook. When you're voting Westbrook third for MVP. Hey, Dieter. You lose the vote. Dieter, Dieter,

some bad news. We respect your contributions. Unfortunately, you won't be voting for the awards this year. Yeah, and Marv was the LeBron MVP voter.

Oh, no, no, no. Wait a minute. No, no, no. No, it was. I thought he was the first team all NBA voter-NBA voter. He was first-team All-NBA. That's right. That was tough. That was tough. There was... We were

hoping for a couple of suspects to be the actual one of that one. Wait, I had another question for you. Who's going to... what's your finals prediction now knowing that we know this is the final four Phoenix Hawks baby I'm rolling with

the ATL do you really think that's gonna be the finals you think it's gonna be Phoenix Hawks no I mean it feels like I have no problem on the Phoenix thing you and I are just seeing that differently that's fine I kind of just want to pick the Hawks.

You know what I'm saying? Because I didn't leave that Milwaukee series going, all right, you're the deer time. The fact that their bench is just, I guess, a zero. They feel like they put a lot of miles on their three guys. And as we've seen, there's been injuries every round. And I just think you never know. Thank God they got P.J. Tucker, by the way.

Oh, my gosh. Like, he brings, he was toast. Again, this is kind of that rule that we talked about. Guys that have some pedigree that aren't 100, that are in an awful basketball situation, I think you and I have learned this year that you've got to be a little bit more open-minded about what they could bring to your team.

Because I think at one point, P.J. had the single worst plus-minus box score of any active player that qualified. And granted, Houston's a mess and all that kind of stuff. But when you watch, you're like, hey, it's not quite the same when you can't just sit in the corner off of all Harden's drives. But just who he is as a dude out there, knowing that they're going to be complete donuts offensively, I hope P.J. Tucker gets paid again

because he's been underpaid through a good chunk of his career. And thank God they have him because you're right. Rotationally, they actually just desperately need the minutes, especially when you're talking about the matchup there with Durant. Can I zag on this? Okay. I actually thought,

are we sure PJ Tucker was good in the last few games? Cause Durant scored like 50 a game and PJ Tucker scored zero on the other end. How many, what did he score? Three points a game? And then Durant did everything he wants. I think there was like a Jedi mind trick thing going on with PJ Tucker with him. Man, this guy's amazing. And then it's like a Jedi mind trick thing going on with P.J. Tucker.

Man, this guy's amazing. And then it's like, all right, look at Durant's box score. Are we sure P.J. Tucker was amazing? Like, would you have been better off just playing Bryn Forbes, having Durant torch Bryn Forbes, and then at least Bryn Forbes wide open in the corner is going to make 50% of his shots? Is that a better scenario?

I don't know. Good Zach. I thought it was good Zach. No, it's a really good Zach. It's a good Zach because I don't know. Good Zach. I thought it was good Zach. Thank you. No, it's a really good Zach. It's a good Zach because the offensive numbers were not very good.

They're awful. But if it's Bryn Forbes torching Durant or getting torched by Durant, although who knows, maybe Bryn Forbes is a bad matchup for KD,

low center of gravity. Yeah. We can only, we'll have to wait until next year. But the fact that PJ made Durant work led to his fatigue. Oh, there we go.

Didn't know where he was on the court. Foot is over the line. Counter zag. And yeah, I just, I double zagged you. And if it's Forbes, he's far more, like it's easier catch. He hasn't expended as much energy. Three point game. And we're wondering if a Simmons for Middleton trade makes sense.

Wow. I mean, now that would be too much for the Bucs, right? They'd hang up. Would you do Ogilvy and Neesmith? Ogilvy and Neesmith for Simmons? This is good. Tell Chris Ryan to not listen to anything for days. Well, all right.

Let's say Philly calls Sacramento and says, give us De'Aaron Fox for Simmons, which is calling into the league. I think Sacramento says no. I think that was actually, I don't know who, I don't want to start any rumors here. Um, I think at one point,

no, right? Yeah, I would say no. So if we're just saying like top 40 guys, that he's a free agent, by the way, I knew that.

So sorry, that trades off too bad. Um, yeah, it's like McCollum for Simmons. I don't know if I'm Portland. Am I doing that? No.

From what I just watched. He's healthy. That'd be a plus for Portland. Brandon Ingram? They're not doing that. That would be awful for Zion. Zach Levine? No.

It's like... Aaron Gordon? Just don't know what the trade is. Is it like a Memphis where you get like a slow-mo and Dylan Brooks and like a forefront of Memphis fans are going to get mad at me. I don't know.

I don't know what the trade is. I think everyone's going to try to trade Ben Simmons this summer and I don't know what the trade is. Because you're not... By the way, Laker fans, you're not getting in for Kuzma and Talon Horton Tucker. So stop,

stop clutch. I don't know. You sure? Hey, by the way, can you imagine Simmons off the ball with John Morant? Oof. I honestly,

it's a team like Orlando. It's a rehabilitation thing. And you talk yourself into it. Like this guy just needs his own team. Let's build a team around Ben Simmons. The same way Atlanta built a team around Trey young. Let's build a team around all the stuff he's good at and give this guy a chance to be the focal point on a,

on a team other than this side piece would be hours, right? Hours after the, the wake is not going to talk about his trade value. Because I think Verno was on our text thread, and he had a really good point. He was like, whatever you guys think it is now. And I completely agree with him.

There's just so many trades where you're determined to be like, oh, no, no, it's this, or this is the most you could do, or this guy sucks, or there's no market here, or you could get everything for this guy. And then when the trade goes through, you like oh all right okay there was like a little bit more in there than we thought doesn't that feel kind of the way the nba market works simmons for kevin love and garland i think they'd rather do sexton i think you're right i think cooler heads will prevail

but you know daryl's just going to give them away, by the way, either. It's Daryl. This was the big question I had for you, and we can end on this. I think this NBA season is way more fun if Harden got traded to Philly. I think this season falls into place

in a totally better way. We don't have this Brooklyn super team that feels like karma just completely submarine because the basketball gods didn't like how that team got put together. So like, fuck this. You guys are out. Harden goes to Philly. That team is now much more of a contender and we have more answers for Harden as what he is as, you know, a top 40 all time guy. What is he? All right. Now we've put you on a team that has defense and a center. What are you? Let's see it.

Can you be the best guy on the best team? And then the Nets, we kind of saw what happened anyway with Ed Harden, and they could have survived without him with all the pieces. I just think it's a more fun league. And then we get Simmons and Houston kind of just putting together his own band,

which is going to happen somewhere anyway. I just kind of wish putting together his own band, which is going to happen somewhere. Anyway, I just kind of wish that trade had happened. The NBA changed that day because it was such a weird day. Cause early in the day here in the West coast. Yeah. We did the same info. Yeah.

It looks like it's Philly. And then it was, you know, according to, uh, you know, others that do it for a living, which is,

you know, always a little dangerous for guys like us that have information, but you're kind of just conversational about it, and then it could start a whole shitstorm. So I'm glad we weren't on until it all happened. But you could just see again throughout it all that somebody that can create, somebody that can space. Because I don't know. i feel like this is the same conversation for four years so i have to keep doing it it's just it's kind of how i started the pod like i shouldn't be surprised by any of it i'm kind of not but i still can't believe it happened even though that's all i've seen and now atlanta's playing for a chance to get to the nba finals you

were surprised by herder a little bit you've've been following Herter's career. You were a little surprised that he turned into Peja 2.0. I know this about Herter when he comes to your town. Alright. Yeah. Strap him up and hide your wife. Fan do odds for the title

right now. Your Atlanta Hawks are 12 to 1. LA Clippers plus 850. Phoenix Suns plus 135. Milwaukee Bucks minus 105. That line makes you think Vegas may be more in line with your information then. No, I would say your information, if the clips are plus 850.

Oh, they're plus? I'm sorry. I misunderstood what you were saying. My bad. Yeah, so if you did a Buck's Sons parlay, it's about three to one. If you're saying that is what I think the finals will be. And that would be, as we discussed last week,

the Neal Walk finals. That's a good bet. That's a good bet right there. Yeah. 3-1 payout. Wasilla, you got two pods coming this week. I have a draft lottery show I'm doing Tuesday night. New rewatchable is coming tomorrow. We're doing Stripes. Nice.

Yeah. Nice. And then I have a Thursday pod as well. It's great to see. What a week in a basketball. This is certainly the weirdest postseason that the NBA has had since I was nine years old or eight years old. So it feels significant. We're still good to see you.

Enjoy the rest of a father's day. Best of luck to the dads out there. Lee Harvey. You are a mad man. When you and your buddies stole the cow and he did it with the cow i want to party with you stripes rewatch was all right good to see you riscilla that's it for the pod we will see you on tuesday On the way so I never said I don't have feelings within On the way so I never said

I don't have to ever say