The Bill Simmons Podcast - Part 2: Phoenix in Trouble, Dallas Fights Back, a Magical Knicks Moment, and Denver’s Superpower With Kevin O’Connor

Episode Date: April 24, 2024

In Part 2 of a two-part podcast, The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Kevin O'Connor to run through Game 2 of Mavericks-Clippers and Bucks-Pacers (1:25), Suns-Timberwolves (22:02), Knicks-76ers, and Lakers-Nuggets (39:40). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Kevin O'Connor Producer: Kyle Crichton The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

coming up part two of the podcast me kevin o'connor talking tuesday night and monday night hoops next this episode is brought to you by my old friend miller light i've been a big fan of miller light man since since college days when i was allowed to have beer i think nephew kyle is a fan too miller light keeps it simple for us undebatable quality great taste picture this it's game day all the gangs here you're tailgating outside the, it's game day, all the gang's here, you're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're standing at the grill and the smell of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that. Or when you want a light beer that tastes like beer, that's delicious. You don't want to load up

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If you missed part one of this podcast, me and Ben Solak broke down the NFL draft. I threw a lot of theories at him. We tried to figure out what quarterbacks we liked, if there's any sort of trends. I had a great time. I also had a great time on FanDuel, where we're going to

be doing something with FanDuel Sportsbook on either Wednesday or Thursday night. Probably Wednesday night, but we're going to boost something, and I've been on a boost hot streak. Stay tuned for that. NBA playoffs boost coming. Check my Twitter. Coming up on this feed, man,

the weekend of the playoffs wasn't that good. And then all of a sudden, the playoffs got good. Monday night, Tuesday night, lots of stuff to talk about. Kevin O'Connor is here. We're going to talk NBA next. First, our good friends who have a new album out from Pearl Jam. All right, we're taping this. Part two. It is almost 10 o'clock Pacific time. Just watch Clips Dallas. Kevin O'Connor is here.

Is Dallas back? Are we ready to go here? Is Dallas the contender that we were waiting for that didn't show up over the weekend, but now they're here? It sure felt like they were back in that, you know, second half of the game once Luka started rolling. I mean, the entire game,

I was waiting for Luka to come out. He had the weird game at the end of the I mean, the entire game, I was waiting for Luca to come out. He had the weird game at the end of the third quarter, a missed layup. But then he ends up hitting a three, and it felt like that turned things around. But ultimately, this is the version of Dallas that I felt like you were expecting to see entering the postseason with Derrick Jones Jr. and P.J. Washington, those additions on defense this past year, their off-ball defense was amazing, complementing the star scoring of Kyrie Irving and Luka.

I thought both of those guys, even though Luka didn't have his best scoring game overall, Kyrie, as a complement, incredible defense throughout, great energy, downhill attacking. Played hard, Josh Green as well and his minutes it just felt like this is definitely compared to the first two times we saw luca against the clippers when they lost and he went toe-to-toe with some incredible kawaii performances this is by far the best overall roster that luca has gone against the clippers with and i i think they definitely look like a team that was back on track,

even going back to the first half of the first game, Bill. Yeah, and then Tim Hardaway gets hurt, which means Green plays more, which I think actually helped them. But I went to Sunday's game, and you could feel in the second half they were starting to figure out the pace against the Clippers

and how to slow things down and what to do. And then this game was kind of an extension of that. I mean, neither team got to a hundred points. The Kawhi variable seemed like it screwed up the Clippers. And I know there was a lot of debate with the Clippers about whether to just have him rehab for a couple more days, bring him back for game three, try to steal one more with him. Tyloo stuck with him. I don't think he should have. Would it, would it, Kawhi finished seven for 17, but I just thought he looked a step slow. I didn't think he had any lift.

He didn't make a three. And Terrence, man, how many minutes did he have? 21. 21, yeah. He was one of the heroes of game one. I just thought they missed his energy. And the worst version of this Clippers team is when everyone's just standing around

and the clogged toilet offense officially takes effect and tylo's over in the sideline with the plunger and it's like oh it's paul george's turn oh it's harden's turn this time and westbrook's in the corner just waiting for somebody to miss so he can come flying in from the side but uh really stilted weird they went away from zoo bots who at one point was like one for one for six one for seven and he was somebody that was just killing Dallas in the last game but I thought they blew a really good chance to go up 2-0 to put the Mavs on their heels the Mavs were like griping a little bit during that game that I went to in game one and now all of a sudden the Mavs have their mojo

back and then you have this Kawhi piece what did you see from Kawhi what did you like and not like? I have this Kawhi piece. What did you see from Kawhi? What did you like and not like? I mean, with Kawhi, he had his moments. You know, it's his first game back. I'm not going to overreact to just him going 7 of 17. I understand why you play him as much as you did in the game. He's Kawhi Leonard. So you think it was like a let's knock some rust off him type of situation?

I think so. I mean, you need Kawhi ultimately in the series. I think for the Clippers overall... Do you need Kawhi? You do need Kawhi. Do you need not totally healthy Kawhi? Or are you better off just hoping

he's healthy for the last 3-4 games? Because the Kawhi today, they did not need. I mean, they did not need this version of Kawhi, but you still need at least 80% Kawhi or 90% Kawhi because of the belief in this Mavericks team. And I felt like part of the reason why, like you said, the toilet was clogged for the Clippers on offense was that overall collective defense by the Mavericks. Derrick Jones Jr. and P.J. Washington, their off-ball defense shading off of Terrence Mann,

shading off of Russell West man shading off of russell westbrook are blatantly ignoring him a lot of the time putting pressure on james harden paul george kawaii leonard taking away driving lanes recovering and then switching on ball at times i thought pj washington he had a really good overall game i know he missed some easy layups which was weird but he hit some big threes down the stretch his on ball defense I thought he made things hard on Kawhi a lot of the time. So this is what they got him for This is you know What they what they went out for last year to get Derek Jones juniors to surround Luca and Kyrie with versatile defenders And I felt like that they the matchup in this game was a lot better also with the way they played Zubats

Gafford only plays nine minutes tonight. He stunk in the first game. Zubats just bullies him completely. He got hurt a little bit too, right? He did, yes. It's like he stepped on an ankle or something. It seemed like something did happen there. Lively played 21 minutes and he's undersized too. But what that did put the Mavericks into was playing more small ball with Kleba, who was way better in game two tonight than he was in game one, but they were swarming. Sometimes when Zubats would get the ball near the paint or in the paint, like fourth quarter, they had two, three guys kind of swatting at the ball, taking it away from him. They were all over

him by committee. It wasn't just playing him one-on-one when he was one of the league's most efficient post players of the entire season. So I think the Clippers collectively, as an offense, went against a better Mavericks defense. And to me, that was the big difference in the game. And then Luka just took over at the end in order to take the win for Dallas. They felt out the Kliba thing in the second half of game one

because I think they started to realize the centers maybe didn't make sense against this Clippers team, which is weird because that was one of the things we loved. I like the way Lively was jumping off guys in game one and guarding guys 25 feet from the basket. For the most part, they're getting overpowered. Who's more scared right now where this series goes in 10 days? Who would this be a worse loss for?

Because I was thinking today about the stakes. Cleba hit that three with two minutes left. Dallas was up three. The Clips were coming back, and it started to feel a little Lakers-Nuggets-y, like what would happen in Lakers-Nuggets game two, and I was thinking, oh my God, if Dallas blows this, they've traded basically all their picks to go all in on this team. They don't have a lot of optionality

after this season other than the mid-level. It's like, man, if they can't get out of this series, this is brutal. But then the game ends today and the Clipper fans who were on such a high over the weekend are now like, oh my God, now we have to win a game in Dallas. And Dallas is really good in Dallas, at least since the deadline. So I think there's a little more pressure now on the Clippers only because I don't know if they know who they totally are with this Kawhi variable.

Whereas the Mavs, at least they know who they are. They're like, yeah, we're a little small. We're going to have to go a little small ball. Kawhi and Kyrie and Luke are going to take a bunch of shots. Hopefully a couple other swing guys will make a shot or two.

But we kind of know what we are. I'm not sure the Clippers even know who their best five is right now. I think with the Clippers, to answer your first question, Bill, they are the team under more pressure considering just the sheer age of this team. They're going to have to make the James Harden or Paul George or both of them this summer. There's just a lot of pressure on this team

opening a brand new franchise. They also don't have a ton of assets or youth of them this summer. There's just a lot of pressure on the team opening a brand new franchise. They also don't have a ton of assets or youth on their team either. With the Mavs, at least, they still have Luka and Kyrie, and they still have some youth on their side and time with Luka. Not a lot of time, but they have time at least. What does that mean, KOC? I mean, if they go three, four more years without getting to a West Finals again, then of course, suddenly you're going to start hearing

talk of Miami, LA, New York for Luka, but we're not there yet. We're not close. Whereas with the Clippers, we're already talking about Paul George potentially flirting with the Sixers this offseason as a guy who could go into their cap space. That's already a conversation.

You know, I was thinking about that. He's just going from this Kawhi roller coaster for the last few years, not knowing if Kawhi is going to play next week for how many years? Four or five? Yeah. He's going to go from that to Embiid?

I know, one roller coaster to the next. I would want to go to the most durable guy on the planet for my next guy. It's like, hey, is Yoko have any cap space? California adventure parks, six flags, right? Look up to the next. I mean, it's just seriously. Is he watching the Philly Knicks series? You know what? Philly's looking great. If I were him, I'll go to Orlando.

Cause I think that I think like if he's going to leave the Clippers, I would want to play in Orlando. Cause that's a team that actually needs Paul George. And he brings a specific skill set that would really help them. Plus lives in Florida, no state tax, all that shit. A lot of benefits there. But we'll see what he

ends up doing. If he goes to Philly with Philly doing a grievance? The fuck was that? Why'd they do that? It's such sour grapes. That's the most anti-Philly thing you could do. Here's my grievance. I can't think of a dumber thing to do. Somehow the Sixers have become the Rockets.

Maury just took it there. I don't understand. I love Darryl, but God damn it. I know. To me, Darryl, what Darryl should have done is used his platform on social media and said, hey, here's ways that we can be better at recognizing timeout calls. Let's improve things. Be a little constructive.

Just file on that appeal. Doesn't do anything. It just makes you look like a whiny baby. KOC, here's a fucking newsflash. It's at MSG. It's a playoff game. The crowd's going crazy. I agree.

You're probably not going to get the touch foul on Tyrese Maxey with 12 seconds left. It's not happening. You're not getting those calls. It's the way the league has worked the entire time I've rooted for it. The games are going to be reffed a tiny bit differently

when it's a crazy, crazy playoff crowd and teams are super aggressive all game. Get a rebound. I mean, Hartenstein, that last rebound that got kicked back out to Dante, he just kind of, and Bede is boxing out nobody. He's boxing out like an imaginary man. And Tobias Harris is just like, I have the best seat in the house. I'm just in the paint watching all these shots go by. Hartenstein just comes flying in, gets the rebound, kicks it back out. They had two fucking guys there. Are you complaining about the refs?

Get a rebound. I agree. I mean, the Sixers guys were standing around, whereas Josh Hart just went in hard. Hartenstein followed up, grabbed the board. Like, that was, no pun intended, all Hart in those closing moments by the Knicks to grab the board. I think the complaining about the calls is absurd.

If Embiid had an Apple Watch on that just counted his steps in the last 40 seconds of the game, he's just kind of wandering around in a small circle as just all hell is breaking loose. He's not moving anywhere. Anyway, I think Dallas is a better team than the Clippers.

And I don't know if that means they're going to win the series, but this feels like a best player in the series series to me. And Luka is the best player in the series. And if Kawhi is compromised, which he clearly is, then that means this has to be a Paul George matches Luka. And I just don't think he's on the same level. So this is Dallas' series to lose.

Doesn't mean they're going to win it, but especially with three home games and Luka, level. So this is Dallas' series to lose. Doesn't mean they're going to win it, but especially with three home games and Luka, I thought, man, you know, I wish he was in better shape. I'd like to introduce him to a couple salads and maybe some sparkling water

and some fruit. Sparkling water? Is that good for weight loss? Well, instead of soda? Okay, yeah, instead of soda. That, okay. Yeah, instead of soda. Okay, that's a good replacement. The teas. What does he drink? The sweet teas?

I don't know. Sweet teas. Probably a lot of beer too. A lot of alcohol. Replace that. Yeah, you know what you shouldn't drink when you're a star professional basketball player is beer.

Just ask James Harden. Just ask Larry Bird. That's how he started winning MVPs. He stopped drinking beer during the season. Like he literally says that. He's like, yeah, stop drinking beer. Alright. Let's do Bucks Pacers because

Suns-Wolves I have deeper thoughts on. The Pacers were the team that I picked up to win the series and I wagered on them. Then they showed up for game one or they didn't show up for game one and just looked nervous and looked like the classic young team that didn't realize that the playoffs are going

to be harder than the regular season. And they sucked. And Hal Burton looked bad. And he's, you know, for him, he's looked not great for two months. This game was different. They had the same pace they had in some of those October, November, December games. They played with speed. And without Giannis out there, the big thing was Siakam. The Bucs have no wing on their roster with size who can deal with his athleticism. And he's had the two highest point games, I think, in round one so far. I think the Bucs are in real trouble here

because they didn't really mention the Giannis thing today. Feels like another week. What do you think? Maybe he's back for game five, six? Maybe four at the earliest. And are you rushing him back when the Celtics are a prohibitive favorite to win the East? Are you like, yeah, let's fuck around with Giannis' strained calf?

I'm not fucking around with that. It's a difficult choice. I mean, because we saw, obviously, you hope nothing ever would have happened like did to Kevin Durant after he returned. That's the 10 out of 10 terrible scenario. That's the worst case scenario of what could happen if you rush him back, especially

if you're down 2-1 in the series or even 3-1 in the series series is it really worth it to bring him back at all um obviously like we'll see uh it seems like he's trending up but trending up doesn't mean a close to return to game action ultimately he is the key to it like to everything like if janice doesn't return the series will go the pacer's, which is why I also picked him to win the series, just with the uncertainty with Giannis. But for him, if he comes back, he fixes two main things. A, he's helping the Bucs actually get to the paint,

which is slowing the game down. A, he has athletic ability. Yeah, he's an athlete. He can jump. Yeah. But if they're slowing the game down you're limiting those transition opportunities the pacers are just absolutely feasting on i know you could say the bucks need to get back but the pacers are a fast team like they're hard for any defense to

stop and transition especially a team lacking their best player but then also he's the guy who would probably be defending pascal siakam like have Brook Lopez defending Pascal Siakam right now, just allowing him to take open catch-and-shoot threes. Siakam's hit 40% of them this year with the Pacers, up from 34% with Toronto. He's one of the league's better players at attacking closeouts. He has been for years, ever since he was a role player with the Raptors. And tonight, he showed off everything. He showed off when they put other smaller guys on him, the post-ups, the cutting was there,

the ISOs, the transition opportunities, the playmaking. Like it was two complete games we've seen from Siakam. But if Giannis returns, then everything changes there. And then it becomes on Halliburton, who I still think the Pacers need to return to some form of his, you know, the version we saw of him before the injury in January.

Because 21 points on 17 shots through two games so far, that's not going to cut it for them. Halliburton needs to find himself. He doesn't seem healthy. He doesn't seem healthy to you, does he? Yeah. Seems like 72, 78%. Rosillo always makes fun of me when I do percentages. Might be less than that, Bill.

It might be more like 67, 68. This guy was a top five player in the league for the first 10 weeks of the season and has no resemblance to that guy. Not even close. And doesn't beat people off the dribble like he did. It's gotten to the point when he takes those 25-footers, I don't necessarily think they're going

in, but they had a massive Siakam game and then Turner hit some big threes. The Bucs are one of those teams, we've seen it all year, if you can hit them with some punches and get them on their heels and get them to the later rounds of the fight,

they just quit, which they did in the fourth quarter today. They just stopped getting back. So if you're the Pacers, your goal was to get 1-1 going back to Indy. They did that. They play Friday, Sunday, which I just don't think Giannis is going to be back this week.

Friday, Sunday is tough for the... Feels so soon. Yeah, Friday, Sunday is tough for the Bucs because you got Middleton who played 36 minutes tonight. You got Lillard who played 39. Portis, 30. Beverly, 34.

Those guys are old. Jake Crowder. So for the Pacers, if they can win game three and then we're coming right back like 38 hours later for game four, it's a great spot for them. I mean, this is exactly where they wanted to be.

Definitely. And I think for Halliburton, I was looking at the numbers earlier today ahead of the game tonight, and the three-point shot, like 40% from three prior to the injury, 32% since then. Shots are down from 17 per game to 14 per game. Usage is down. Everything's down, right? But the one interesting thing that I found when looking at the numbers is that he's still shooting the same percentage at the rim. He's shooting even better from mid-range. He's shooting

the same on catch-and-shoot threes. The only thing that's really worse, at least statistically, I know he looks a bit slower he looks like he's not creating quite as much space but the one thing that's the worst is the cat that the dribble jumper three so shooting threes off the dribble so what i think with helleburn he should at least look at doing he's been an elite mid-range shooter before and after that injury happened maybe rediscover the mid-range a little bit. He doesn't take many mid-range shots. He's one of those very anachronically happy players at rim and then would step back threes and pull-ups.

Maybe for him, it's about finding the mid-range. He's shot 60% from mid-range since the injury, 60%. It's just he doesn't take a lot of them. I wonder if maybe for halibur and maybe tweaking his own shot selection as a way to kind of you know uh adjust to whatever he's going through whether it's something mental or something physical or something that other teams are doing to him on those step back jumpers but the mid-range is still there at least according to the numbers or just just stronger drugs in his leg.

Maybe that's it too. Maybe go horse tranquilizers. Like with Embiid with the eye twitch. Oh, Jesus. But did you see, there was a video I watched today, Dr. Brian Suter. About how he put his left eye couldn't blink? Yeah, because Embiid, if you look back early in game one,

Oubre kind of like swiped Embiid over the eye. And ever since then, Embiid, if you look at him at the free throw line, like that side of his forehead isn't wrinkling like the other side is and the eye is not blinking. So the theory is maybe something with nerve damage or something along those lines. Or just got tweaked in a weird way. Yeah. But I mean, that's, I that's on top of the knee issue. Dame's

stats in these two games, he had 61 points and 12 threes in the first halves. And he had 8 points and 0 threes in the second half. And shot 21.4% field goals. I have no explanation for it. But I was thinking maybe this goes back

to my thing I wanted Philly to do with Embiid, just play him in one half, just play him in the second half. And if you just had Dane playing in the first half, that's it. And then he just leaves. And then Embiid comes in second half. You'd have the best team in the playoffs. We're going to take a break and then we're going to talk about the bright future sons who are now the sad future sons. That's next. Do you know you can watch a lot of videos and clips from this podcast on youtube.com slash Bill Simmons? Yeah. I put up shorts. I walk around LA. I just babble about stuff for a minute. We put up stuff from the office. We put up random live episodes like we did on Sunday night recently with me and Ryan Rosillo, just talking NBA, the first part of the podcast you listen to here. Yeah, we ran it

on YouTube. Please subscribe, youtube.com slash Bill Simmons. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention,

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After decades of shaky hands caused by debilitating tremors, Sunnybrook was the only hospital in Canada who could provide Andy with something special. Three neurosurgeons, two scientists, one movement disorders coordinator, 58 answered questions, two focused ultrasound procedures, one specially developed helmet, thousands of high intensity focused ultrasound waves, zero incisions. And that very same day, two steady hands. From innovation to action, Sunnybrook is special. Learn more at sunnybrook.ca slash special. All right. So Suns Wolves, the crazy ownership series. KFC, I am just filled with hatred for myself. I loved Minnesota all year. I was so excited to, I even had a bet with them versus the Celtics at 16 to one that I did like 10 days before the playoffs started. And then the Suns

beat the Wolves twice in nine days. And they also won that Sacramento game where they won by one. And I was out on the Suns. I was like, there's something wrong with this team. I don't think they necessarily like each other. This feels like a team that could be one, two, three Cancun potentially. And then they sucked me back in. And by the time the playoff started, I'm like, they're just a bad matchup for Minnesota. They're going to beat them. And then you watch the game today, game two, a must win. And you watch how the other game two road teams responded. And then you watch what they did. It was the opposite of a response. And in the second half, they just looked miserable. And I wasn't there. I would have loved to have been there. But even TV body language, Dr. Bill was like, I don't like what I'm, what I'm seeing here. I don't see a team that's connected.

I see a team that's ready to roll over and go back to Phoenix. And I went from thinking this team was going to potentially beat Minnesota. Minnesota wasn't ready to now wondering if Phoenix might just check out here because they got the Edwards game that they needed today. Edwards kind of stunk today. Like for him, he didn't play that well. But McDaniels steps up and just Minnesota just seemed like they were playing harder. And Phoenix just seemed your turn, my turn-y.

And it was bad. What were your takeaways? My takeaways were, first of all, to add context to it, I felt the same as you during the series. That's just a bad matchup for the Wolves. And I picked the Suns to win the series because they just smoked them during the regular season

and it felt like a terrible matchup. It was like that New Orleans-Portland year with Anthony Davis, where it's like sometimes it's just a bad matchup. And that's what I think we both saw in this, but we were wrong. And ultimately, though, the Timberwolves have proven that to be completely false. I mean, we'll see how things return to Phoenix, but I have no faith in the Suns at this point

with the way in which the Wolves have played. I thought tonight was, it looks very bad for Phoenix, because as you said, Anthony Edwards was not great. He still was a positive player for the Wolves. He defended his ass off. Yeah, he's playing hard. He was great. He was awesome on Beal.

I thought offensively, again, like he was in the first game, he was really good as a playmaker. He was decisive. He moved with purpose. He had a kick out in the second quarter, I think it was. Gobert on a short roll kicked it out to ant he immediately just attacked whipped it to jayden mcdaniels for a three i thought he was just good overall even though he wasn't scoring but ultimately though like this

game for the wolves was about everybody else jayden mcdaniels in game one was awesome defending devin booker tonight he actually defended kevinant more than he defended Devin Booker. He was still equally impactful on defense in the same way that he was tonight on offense. Mike Conley stepping up, like that's something that it feels like the Suns are missing is that point guard. Like the guy to settle things down where it's your turn my turn with the suns whereas with mike conley his second quarter i i thought he was the reason why the wolves didn't allow the suns to extend the lead because that quarter the suns were were pretty good um like i think they had a chance to extend the lead but conley scored or assisted on 15 of 22 points for the wolves over a stretch

showing up everything he can do offensively lefty flo floater, righty floater, three off a screen, pull up out of a pick and roll. He had an extension layup. He did everything. And I thought that set up the Conley run, set up the third quarter where Edwards came to life a little bit late. Nikhil Alexander-Walker was scoring and playmaking. McDaniels was hitting everything.

And that's when they extended their lead. When McDaniels plays like that, they're basically unbeatable incredible they're incredible when mcdaniels is like that might be the only time this series when he plays like that but but ultimately though i mean maybe not i mean he does have talent um he does i'm just saying he's not he was it was one of those games for sure and i mean this does serve as an example, though, when you look at the Wolves role players versus the Suns role players. Role players do matter here. When you don't have Ant going off, he's three for seven, three for 12, and Cat was three for seven in the game. And yet you smoke the opponents.

That's because of McDaniels. It's because of Conley. It's because of Alexander Walker. And I was just watching the game tonight. I think so much about the draft. I'm thinking, this is why I can't get behind the 2024 draft class stinks. Yes, it lacks star power,

but this is a draft class that could be littered with star role players. Guys who could have potentially played in this series. Yeah, you're right. Exactly, and I think tonight's game was a good example of that. And oh, by the way, the name we didn't even mention, Bill, Rudy Gobert.

This is one of his Hall of Fame performances on defense. Gobert was incredible. He was great. He was amazing. He did everything. He dropped. He defended high in the pick and roll. He switched.

Bill Gobert, a booker, went 0 for 4 with two turnovers when he defended him. Those guys manned him in. Gobert was amazing. He's really one of the main reasons why they're up 2-0 in the series. I wrote down, Minnesota can win without a good Edwards game. Who else can

win without a good game from their star in a playoff game like this? It's basically just them and Boston. I don't think Denver can win if Jokic sucks. Right? Unless Murray goes for 45. Yeah, Murray would have to.

Well, I mean, it's a hypothetical because Jokic never sucks. He never does. But for him to just really suck, I think it would be hard for them. What about the Knicks, though? Brunson has not been good through two games, and they're up 2-0. Does that not count because they're going against the Sixers team with you know and be limited and yeah I think it's that to me is a little more of an Embiid thing but yeah Brunson has not been good you're right the Knicks probably get thrown in there but uh Thunder if SGA has like a really

off night I think the Thunder maybe. They could. You need a lot of Jalen Williams. You need the right Isaiah Joe 5-3s. I think they could get that. Maybe. I think OKC, Knicks, Celtics. So maybe about a quarter of the teams in the playoffs. Ant's weirdly like it's almost a luxury when he has an awesome game.

You assume he's going to be somewhere between 22 and 28. the teams in the playoffs. It's weirdly like it's almost a luxury when he has an awesome game. You assume he's going to be somewhere between 22 and 28, but they can still survive when he's not good, especially when he's passing like this. I wrote that down. I wrote down this is why you need a point guard. You know, the Suns, they were smarter than all of us, right?

It was like, we're just going to trade everything for Durant. We're going to be the team that takes Bradley Beal. We don't need role players. We're the team that's going to figure out Nurkic as a reliable center. And then you're watching it just fall apart. I'm holding a thought that I'm going to throw at you. I had one more Minnesota thing. Our guy Jason Goff, who hosts the Full Go, big week in Chicago.

They're going to actually have a quarterback for the first time, Jason Goff's lifetime. He had this tweet, and I had to brew a special batch of settle-down juice for him. Goff said, said it before, I'll say it again, Jada McDaniels is my favorite defender to watch. I agree with that. And if he's going to chip in like this offensively in a playoff game, MJ might have found his Scotty. Said it before, I'll say it again. Jada McDaniels is my favorite defender to watch. I agree with that. And if he's going to chip in like this offensively in a playoff game,

MJ might have found his Scotty. Jason, I'm sending you a 24-pack of settle-down juice. Now, on paper, yeah. If Jada McDaniels can average 23 a game, I could see it. But he was 10-5 this year. He's 23 years old. But it did make me think. Love you, Goff, by the way. It did make me think,

what more is left here for Jada McDaniels offensively? Because he is young. And you figure this is going to be him and probably Gobert for a few years, Nas Reed. We'll see if Towns stays or goes, but what's left for him offensively? Could he be more than a 10-5 guy? Well, it's two things. It's A, last season, more so than this year, he showed off some flashes of pull-up shooting ability from mid-range, And the hope was that that would translate to a higher volume. It hasn't.

This year he shot, I believe, 35% on catch-and-shoot threes. Last year he was better than that. He was closer to 40%. So it's him getting that number back up. So it's higher volume pull-ups from mid-range, kind of that secondary creation, and then it's just better shooting off the catch. I think those are the two main things you want to see

from McDaniels moving forward with him. And if you get that, then maybe you get nights like this with more frequency. I don't think he's going to be the pippin' to MJ for Anthony Edwards, but I do think that there is more. It's a bold call. I liked it. There is more to his game, though, and he's shown flashes. It's just about putting it together,

and that's what made it cool to see that tonight from him. Well, I looked at his shot chart. I like ESPN when you can go to the shot chart. He made a couple threes, but a lot of his stuff was in the paint, and I think the thing I like about him, I like when he goes to the basket. I like when he just decisively drives, and I don't feel like he does that a lot.

Maybe some of it has to do with Gobert's block and the thing. But I think we all like him. It was funny when they traded for Gobert and then they put the stuff out. We told them Jaden McDaniels is off limits after they gave up like 18 first round picks. I was like, congrats, you kept Jaden McDaniels. But he is good. All right, it's time. This is one of my big questions.

Kyle might have to turn on the hotel room TikTok camera on. Are we going to be making up Devin Booker trades in late June? Booker before Durant? Or both? Durant can't get traded again. I can't handle that emotionally. I can't handle that emotionally. I can't. Not again.

What does he have to lose? Not again. Where's he going to go now? He's already tarnished his reputation ever since leaving Golden State. Is he going to wander around the league and just find different teams? He's linking posts about Chet on Instagram. It might be he wants to go back to OKC. I don't know if they'd want him back.

Phoenix calls New Orleans late June after they get swept by the Wolves here. Let's go worst case scenario. They get swept. Swept. And it's like, oh man, Frank Vogel, you're the fall guy, but maybe that's not enough.

They're in the room. It's Ishbia who can't believe that he's traded all of his picks and he's the second apron team and he has two playoff victories in two years to show for it. Ishbia and whoever is in her circle is, they're like, let's call New Orleans.

Griffin answers and he says, give me five first. Five first? I'd want pretty much everything back that I've given up for some of these other star players. I want five. I want six.

For Devin Booker with the years left on his deal, how young he is. How many years are left though? I thought it was kind of getting a little... Are we inching a little closer to the end there? 2026? Booker is signed through 2028.

So there's time. This is the first year of that new extension. So we have the new extension. When we keep the TikTok video going, we got to reflect that. With that many years on his contract, it's four or five firsts. Yeah, I think you need a hell of a lot.

Who has a longer meeting? I'd be intrigued from the Phoenix side of things of just blowing things up completely, considering if you do suffer a first round loss, worst case scenario sweep, you got to be looking at the drawing board saying, there's literally nothing that we can do. You don't have future assets. You don't have young players to train. You're not allowed to sign free agents because you're over the second April.

Yes. And not only that, the swaps that you've already traded, sometimes you've traded the swaps twice, further diminishing the value of your pig swaps. They've tried to get creative with the limited amount of assets they have, but they got nothing to make significant moves. And this is a fundamentally flawed team. The only counter I would have to you there, Bill, is instead of trading Devin Booker at 28 years old, you're probably not trading Beal either. He has a no trade clause and he doesn't have great value anyway.

If you did decide to trade Kevin Durant again, he's the guy that would still have some value. He's still really good. He's still a top 10 to 15 player in the league. Maybe flipping KD into... 36 next year. He's old. Maybe flipping him into multiple pieces and picks is something that could be mutually beneficial

for your team and the receiving team. To me, I still want to hang on to Booker. He's in the first year of his deal it's it's too soon for me to give up on devin booker especially given the fact that you don't own your own picks moving forward so if you suck or you're stuck in the middle like where are you exactly you still want to compete so i'd still want to hang on to devin booker at this point what if you traded booker and durant what if What if you traded Durant to the Warriors? I don't know. This is the kind of stuff. The point is, I was thinking about this stuff during the fourth

quarter of that game where I was like, wow, this is now officially like we're in blow it upville, as you would call it. It is entering that neighborhood because of the fact that they have nothing they can do. And ultimately, it should be elite. They're at the stop sign going, wait, is that a right turn to blow it up, Phil? If you are Devin Booker, specifically, I think if you're the Suns, you want to hang on to these guys. You have nothing else you can do. You want to compete and hope you get lucky. But if you're Devin Booker, specifically, you're like, I'm 28 years old. I'm an all NBA caliber player. I'm an all-star. I've been to a finals. I've flourished at the on the biggest stages. Do I really want to be here? If you're Booker, I think those thoughts

begin entering your mind this summer, because why would they not? It's only natural when you're a competitor like that when you have his mindset. So I think for Booker, he should be thinking about it. But I think it's too soon. It's one year too soon. But one year from now, I think it's very reasonable for something that big and that massive, a blow-it-up situation to occur for the Suns. But we're nearing the point that they should think about it. I'm glad we talked it out. It would be interesting if they did a Booker trade

and a Durant trade and just said, F it. We won two playoff games with these guys in two years. It didn't work. We're moving on. Let's get our picks back. Think about the good vibes of this team just a couple years ago. Mikel Bridges, Cam Johnson, up and coming team. So if they're not

bright future sons, what are they? The bleak future sons. The sad sex sons. We can just pull out a thesaurus and pull out a whole whole bunch of words here for phoenix it's yeah it's um i feel bad for sons fans because things were so bad for a while and then they got really good and really optimistic and they got good fast and now you're in this position it's just it's awful it really is awful because it feels like if you're like if you're ranking

teams with the bleakest futures they're in the top five right like who else is there the bulls there well i'm not ready to bad teams i'm not ready to say that until we see how this round one plays out because there's a chance they go to phoenix and they play awesome and we're like the suns here we go sure but it was the first time I started really thinking like, holy shit. This could get bad. What if Booker just says, get me the fuck out of here? But to your point, if they get

swept or lose in five, within that context, it's like... To put a bow in this, I don't think they would trade Devin Booker unless he was like, I'm unhappy, I'd like to be traded. And then even then, I don't know if they would trade him. I think the Knicks would be a possibility for that. The Knicks have still held all their stuff for some sort of mega deal.

Miami would be a possibility, so on and so on. Durant, that one gets tougher if you start thinking about they get swept. This gets ugly. Where does Durant go? And all roads maybe lead back to the old state. Who knows? thinking about they get swept, this gets ugly, where does Durant go? All roads maybe lead back to Golden State. Who knows? Well, maybe they'll win game three,

and this will sound like a dumb conversation. KD, only next year are left on his contract as well. Just one year left on his. Who would have thought Kyrie would be in a better spot than Kevin Durant. What were the odds of that a year ago? I don't know. Um, things seem really good with Kyrie right now.

We are, uh, this was the crazy ownership series, by the way. There was all that stuff about the Minnesota non-sale today. Joe Pompiliano wrote a really good piece about it. And, uh, so you have it. And so you have that, and then you have Ishby on the other end, who's like new owner syndrome personified. They're battling for the weird ownership belt. All right, we're gonna take a break. And then I want to talk about yesterday's games and a couple of things going forward.

All right. So you did a podcast with Verno about last night which was uh the monday night games nick sixers nuggets lakers two of the two of the two of the great back-to-backers that we've had especially in round one happiest next playoff win since the lj four-pointer and imbeed is becoming a tragic figure are my two takeaways from that game. It's been so, and you could feel it the whole day today with all the, all the tweet videos and Instagram clips and all the different things, just the fan reactions, the shots of Monica McNutt and her partner doing the radio where they just had the camera on them as they're watching all of it.

That was awesome. Mike Breen gave it a double bang, which I was like, wow, he double banged it. This is the rarest of rare. And then the NBA Today put out a video that he's only done six double bangs. Wow. This is the sixth double bang ever. Yeah, they ran all of them. So it was the sixth elbow bang ever. And there was pure joy in the garden. And if you're a Knicks fan, I mean, really, the issue was Larry David. Because the entire time Larry David had Kirby enthusiasm, the Knicks had no happiness whatsoever. He sucked the happiness out of the Knicks.

Ends the show, good times for the Knicks again. That's my working theory. He started the show, good times for the Knicks again. That's my working theory. He started the show in 2000. That was when it started to turn. Ends the show, now it's, oh my God, it's the DiVincenzo game. Sucks for us. I miss Curb already. I know.

But this is a good outcome at least that the Knicks are fun again. But it was such a joyous game so what stuck out more for you joyous knicks or whatever is going on with this philly situation um i mean joyous knicks stuck out more like it was just an unbelievable environment it was just beautiful to watch fans be that happy and the players like we said earlier play with that amount of heart and effort at the end of the game heart playing every second second in the game. It's just, it's nice to see that. But the six, the curse Sixers is one of the thoughts on my mind. And with Joel Embiid, it's, it's sad at this point.

I mean, I think you can point blame in him if you want to, but this is his 10th postseason loss in which he had a positive plus minus, but his team lost. That happened in two game sevens for the Sixers as well. So it's like Embiid is, you know, he's limited, but he's out there. He's still making a positive impact. He's a plus in game one. He's a plus in game two with him on the floor. He changes things when he's out there compared to Paul Reed and his backups.

And yet the team is still just suffering these heartbreaking defeats over and over and over and over again. And he can't even blink out of one eye on top of a knee injury. And they blew a really great Maxey game. Maxey was awesome. Maxey really took it to the, I mean, he completely outplayed Brunson,

who a lot of people had top five MVP, including me. Brunson looked pretty mortal. They were doing all kinds of things to mess him up. All of it was working. And the Knicks just basically tried harder and got a lot of second chance points and just kind of stole the game, which is when you know you have a good team,

when you can steal a game like that, that you have no business winning. It wasn't lucky. It was grit. Do you buy and beat after the game, you know, him saying we're going to win the series. Do you think the Sixers have that amount of belief going home where fans are going to be insane?

I think it's nuts too. Like, it's like, if you're going home to certain crowds, I think you might say, Oh yeah, the role players would be better. But buddy healed looked frightened to that game.

Like guys, just, we're not putting an effort in the buddy. Healed stock is like going for pennies right now. God. And Tobias, I going for pennies right now. God. And Tobias. What the hell? I like Tobias.

I'm out of excuses for Tobias at this point. Because last year it was like, oh man, Harden and Embiid dominate the ball. What's your excuse this year? You barely do anything. And what your team really needs in this series is rebounding. So go down and get some rebounds. But it's a tough one because Embiid's going to be 31 next year. This was a real chance to at least get to the Eastern Finals

the way this lined up with Giannis getting hurt. you know, the Knicks just stole a game from them that they had no business winning. But if you've watched the Knicks all year, it wasn't that surprising. It's a bad matchup where you have on the one hand, you have this team that's a little slow, a little banged up, and then you have this Knicks team that's just relentless. And that was one of the reasons I love the Knicks in this series.

A non-healthy Embiid, I just think the Knicks are, you know, they're like a pack of pit bulls. Like you can't fight them off. Josh Hart played 48 minutes yesterday and was playing harder than everybody in the last five minutes of the game. Like, I just think they're at a different level competitively. I thought Embiid was crazy to say that because, um, if they lose game three, that looks super stupid. And I don't know what the point of that is either. It's not like it gives anyone confidence. They've shown nothing in those first two games that could make you think they're going to win the four of the next five. Do you agree with my theory against... I said to Rosillo on Sunday night, I think sometimes you can win a series in game one. Because I felt that way with Boston and Brooklyn two years ago.

It was that game one was such a big win and such a huge game. And for them to pull that out, I was like, they're going to win the series now. And that's how I felt about the Knicks. And I don't think Embiid sees that yet. I don't think it's necessarily true with the Sixers-Knicks series. Because they had game two. I mean, they were up. Right, they had it.

They had it. They had it. They had it. Like, it was in their hands, and they just let it slip. And then it would have been one-to-one going back to Philly, and who knows. But I do think it can happen, and this is an example where they lost the series in game two because I see no chance of them fighting back.

You are demoralized. That's one of the worst losses of many terrible losses the Sixers have suffered over the last six, seven, eight years. So I think for Philadelphia, it's like we talked about in regards to Phoenix. With going back to the drawing board, the one difference for the Philly side of things, if you assume worst case, you lose them four or five on the Philly side of things, the difference between them and Phoenix is the fact that they have all the cap space in the world this offseason. They do have flexibility. And they have excuses. They have like, hey,

man, Embiid was hurt. He'll be healthy next year. Phoenix has no excuse. He can't blink one of his eyes. He's coming off a surgery to his knee late in the year. So there's legitimate excuses. And you feel good about the fact that Maxie is looking legit. Maxie is the one silver

lining for the sixers side of things here he looks awesome and so i think for philadelphia um you go into the offseason still feeling like okay this season just didn't go our way but how can we build positively from this at the same time the questions about in beads health are not going to go away which is why i think it was you know i i think the conversations about about whether to bring him back or not, I know you've kind of thought maybe you don't bring him back considering his injury risk. But to me, you had to bring him back if there was a chance of bringing him back because there's no guarantee he'll be even healthier next year. He may never be healthier again entering the postseason again when he's on the wrong side of 30. This could have been the last chance. We don't know that. I hope it's not with Embiid, but it could be.

If you were the Philly GM, would you trade him or keep him? You keep Joel Embiid. Okay. Do you think about trading Embiid? At least... I don't know how this gets better. You might not talk to an assistant, but you think about it in the back of your own mind.

I don't know how it gets better. I don't know how the injuries get better. It's like, oh man, I'm so healthy now. Like big guys, they get bigger every year. And once they pass, they're like heavyweights. Once they pass a certain weight point, they don't really lose the weight. So now he's carrying around a way bigger load than he's ever had before. But he's also had, this is surgically repaired. That was surgically repaired. Oh, he had to have that fixed. Oh, he has two broken orbital bones.

And it's just, you know. I said to Russell on Sunday, it's like what happened to Blake Griffin, where sometimes you can just have too many injuries. It's possible it goes that way at the same time. The Sixers are probably at least tied in the series or maybe up in the series if they have, A, someone far more competent than tobias harris and be a better backup center than paul reed or mo bamba or any of the options that they have behind the beat on

the bench that like they're missing two things really they have a lot else on this team kyle lowry's been good for them as a rotation point guard since they got a mid-year nick batum has been really good overall as well ubrae's has been good. They have good role players. It's upgrading on Harris and upgrading the backup center. Those are the keys for the Sixers to at least give this a greater chance moving forward. You think they regret not doing a Tobias Harris, Bradley Beal something last summer? I think with Maxie's development, no. Maxie has gotten so much better. It just would have been too much overlap

in terms of skill set. Nuggets, Lakers. Jokic had a 20-20-10, which has happened eight times in the history of the NBA in the playoffs. He has four of the eight. What a monster. His last 37 playoff games,

a legitimate 30- 13, and 8 dating back to the start of the 21 playoffs. Wow. He, every time I think I've peaked in how much I love Jokic, he does shit like he did the last night. The thing that, my takeaway from that game, which was just awesome,

and I thought the Lakers played really well. And it was weird to hear them blame the refs because I thought they took a bunch of haymakers. They were going against a team that in the third quarter decided we're winning this game, even though we're down 20. We've done this before. We're taking this game. And the Lakers kept hitting shots and kept fighting them off and kept fighting them off. And ultimately LeBron gacked the one with 17 seconds left, he had a wide open three. And if he makes it,

they're up three with 17 seconds left. He missed it. He'd been making it the whole game, but if he makes the shot, they probably win the game. So it was weird to hear them talk about the refs, but LeBron was, I thought incredible in the second half.

It was crazy to watch. And Denver just kept taking it, taking it, taking it. And it was that same inevitability that we talk about with them, that we used to talk about the Chiefs too. I was trying to think, they're down 19 in that game, and I'm like, they're going to come back. I'm trying to think how many other teams this century I felt that way about. It's really only the 17 Warriors and the 0-1 Lakers, and that's it.

Are the only two teams where I would have felt like they're coming back. And that's it. And that's this century. And now we're one quarter of the way through the century. I wouldn't even have said that about the Miami Heat in the early 2010s. I really think that's the list. Because when they want to, they score every time they have the ball.

Are they one of the greatest? Where do they rank as one of the greatest clutch teams in league history? Are they the greatest? I think when you're talking offenses, that's the list since Jordan retired. And if they go back to back,

and they've lost four times in the playoffs this year and last year. That's not nothing. But I think if they go back to back and they keep winning games like that with how good and competitive the league is this year, it vaults them a whole other level because you're also talking about Jokic now

who has a chance to be, I think, a legitimate chance to be one of the 10 best players ever. Yeah. You know, Russell and I talked about this Sunday. I think he's hitting all the check marks now that we will be talking about him with Bird and Magic and Duncan and Kobe and all these guys. I think he's on his way, but they need the title this year. It'll be some crazy conversations very soon if they go back to back. And I mean, there's just an inevitability with him in these games where, like you said, the Chiefs, where there's a belief in Mahomes that he's going to pull it out like there was with Brady.

We had it with Brady. Yes, exactly. We had it. We know what it feels like. We had it with down 28 to 3 where it's like, okay, there's a little sliver of a chance. Right. You're down 20 points in the second half with Jokic. You're like, we're in this game.

We got a shot. This is manageable. And I think, you know, with Jokic, like he has reached incredible individual heights. But like- He was taking it to Davis. Oh my God. Like it wasn't like he had, you know,

Joel Prisbella in front of him. Like he's just backing down davis and triple drop stepping him and doing all kinds of shit it was fucking crazy yeah it's like as amazing as anthony davis was in the game he was making things harder on yogich he was fighting hard defensively he was even better offensively he wasn't missing at all in the first three quarters of the game. He was amazing. As amazing as AD was, Jokic was significantly better somehow, some way. And I think when I was watching that game last night, when in the middle of the third quarter, they're down 17 points and Michael Malone changed up the Nuggets defense.

They went with Jokic on Rui, Gordon on AD, and KCP on LeBron James. I was like, hmm, I wonder if this is where the game shifts. We'll see what happens, if this works out. And it did. That is where things shift. It just felt like the entire Lakers offense got discombobulated. You know what else happened?

That was when Darvin Ham went into a coma. Yeah, he just stopped doing anything. Just take out Rui and put in Prince. How fucking hard is this? I'm on my couch. I don't even like the Lakers. Why is Rui still playing? They just eliminated him from the game and you still have him

out there. He had a terrible game. I felt like also the one other thing when I was re-watching the game earlier today, it almost didn't occur to me watching live last night, but I tracked the pick and rolls run lebron ran zero pick and rolls ball screens in the first half he ran 12 in the second half d low ran 10 in the first half and only six in the second half and i while re-watching the game

like d low kind of just vanished in the second half like the don't think part of their strategy was let's save LeBron's legs until the second half? Yes, and that was part of it. It's like the opposite of what you said on the pod on Sunday night where you're like, he had a great first six innings, and then he kind of fizzled. It was the opposite, where they just let him roll on defense. He was amazing on defense in that entire game,

and then they saved his legs for the second half, and he was great. But D'Lo did disappear. The D'Lo AD pick and roll is part of the reason why ad had such a big game getting him shots yeah kind of roll into the basket at the short roll ad was feasting on that with d-low and d-low himself was too but they went away from that and that speaks to i think when it comes to that defense the nuggets went to the lack of adjustments from ham. I think maybe at some point, maybe you do force things back to D'Lo a bit more. Try to find situations

to get D'Lo and Aiden together. Prince over Rui is the other one. Granted, Prince has had his issues this year. He would have been better than Rui in that game. He'll make a crazy 24-footer out of nowhere. The altitude, I think think is the other thing with these games.

When your lead is slipping away and you could see all those guys were starting to get tired. And Jokic, who doesn't seem like he's in the best shape of anyone in the game, but he really is.

The guy just never stops moving, never gets tired, always plays at the same speed. He's relentless. It's a really special team. It really is. I enjoy watching them as much as any non-Celtics team that I can remember. It's like real greatness. It really reminds me of those. I hated the Lakers, but I really liked watching the 0-1 Lakers. I felt like they were special. And the same thing with the 17 Warriors.

We're like, this is just special. The Miami during the 33-game win streak was the other one like that. That wasn't in the playoffs. Not 33, 27. But when they had that long win streak, it was like, this is special. These guys have something magical together. I really feel like they have it. And I think it's going to be just shocking if anyone beats them in the West.

I agree. Whether the Celtics can beat them, we'll see. They have the best chance. But man, this is going to be such a tough team to beat. Denver, it's all rooted in Jokic. Again, it's rooted in the Mahomes, the Brady, the belief factor. Even that, the last possession of the game, the game winner by Murray, Jokic orchestrated that entire thing.

The ball's inbounded, and Jokic is like, give it to Murray. He goes up the floor. He's pointing to his teammates to kind of clear out the entire right side for Murray. He tells KCP they're going to run a double screen for Murray. And it's like he's doing everything on the court without even touching the ball. And I think him empowering Murray in a moment like that and down the stretch, even though Murray didn't have a great game individually really until the end, it's that belief factor with yokich that like

helps your team as a whole like with mahomes like with brady where it's like we have a chance with this guy to bring us back and then he empowers everybody in turn as a leader like he is truly truly a special talent and the ways in which he's improved in in little ways he was a once a guy who would have nights where he'd have zero points or four shots and like he wouldn't be looking for a shot he realized oh me being selfless isn't not shooting i need to score for my team to win improving as a defender like he is honestly one of my favorite players i've ever watched in my entire lifetime he is truly truly special and like i'm thankful to watch Jokic. I know it's cheesy to say, but it's true. He is that special as a player. Yeah. I'm trying to think of my

favorite non Celtics were, and it's probably him and magic and Curry are probably my favorite three selfless players. All three of them. That's what they have. Right. Cause that's, that's my favorite thing. Yeah. Tomorrow we have heat Celtics. The Celtics would have been asleep in this game, but the Caleb Martin thing, which everybody has been talking about for three days, now the crowd's going to be all drunk and fired up. Big mistake by Miami. And then Pelicans Thunder,

which is, you know, that is just, I have a season pass for that one. I'm watching every minute of that series. It's a great matchup. My guy, Trey Murphy, who you don't think is nearly enough to be the centerpiece of a Devin Booker trade. I love Trey Murphy, just not for Devin Booker.

I just said he was the centerpiece. I got to check. I have some Trey Murphy fans in my life. I'll be interested to see what they feel like. I feel like he might be untradeable for them. If you're going to ask the Pelicans going backwards, who are your most untradeable guys? It's probably him first, Herb second, and Zion third.

Oh, wow. Ahead of Zion. Yeah, because Zion, he hasn't finished a season and he's expensive i don't know i'm just talking about trade assets yeah fair but he's still zion and you still need it's like you still need zion to win a title you still need a star and i love trey murphy don't get me wrong i love trerey Murphy. I've loved him since pre-draft. The dude's awesome. Like, to see him blossom the way he is is really cool.

But I think he's probably third. It's one Zion, two Herb Jones, best perimeter defender in all of basketball. I have Zion third. And then Trey third, in my opinion. I have Zion third. I think he would be a little harder to trade than people think. It does speak to the decline. Because of the salary and the health.

This speaks to the decline of Ingram though. The fact we have not even uttered his name. I don't think he's going to be on their team next year. Oh, I don't think so either. I'd be surprised. To me, he's the guy you trade and it'd probably be mutually beneficial for him too to have a new situation. Because they need to start playing my guy Trey Murphy more.

Before we go, who do you want the Pats to take at number three? Or do you want them to trade down? Do not trade down. I'd be furious. I'd lean towards Drake May. But I admittedly haven't done deep dives in the ways that I have in the past year since I'm so focused on NBA and NBA draft right now.

But Drake Mays, the guy in my time watching videos, reading the ringers NFL draft guide that stands out the most to me with that third pick right now. Have you ever been more scared of the Pats since you've been alive in terms of who's, who's running them and what's, what's the possibilities are like your whole life. It's been, you know, there's been stability and Tom Brady. And now we have the owner and his son basically running this draft being like,

hey, number three is available if you want to make an offer. It's funny. My mom, she asked me the other day, she's like, hey, would your dad be like excited about the Patriots and Celtics right now? I was like, he'd be very excited about the Celtics, but not the Patriots.

Yeah, he'd be terrified right now. And I like, he'd be very excited about the Celtics, but not the Patriots. He'd be terrified right now. And I explained why with everything going on, as you just did. And I think with them, it's interesting because it reminds me a little bit of when I first was like watching football in the late 90s when people called them the Patsies. Are we entering a Patsies era again?

Oh, man. Wow. If we are, we had a great run. It's hard to complain. Enough to last a lifetime. More than I ever could have asked for as a Patriots fan.

But it does feel like right now you're banking on them sustaining their very good defense from last year. Who knows under, you know,

all the changes under a new coach. The defense is good. I'd like to get a quarterback and a left tackle and a wide receiver. And I feel like we'll be all right. It's a lot to ask for, though,

unfortunately. Are you with Drake May, too? What would Solak say on the first part of the pod? I am all in on Drake May. Solak is also in on Drake May. So we're all on Drake May. I don't think we're all in.

But I think most of us are in. I also like Mac Jones, though, unfortunately. Mac was very underwhelming. also like Mac Jones, though, unfortunately. Mac was very underwhelming. It's hard with quarterbacks, man. It's so tough. It's not like NBA where there's certain guys where that guy's definitely going to be a good pro. There's no doubt.

Quarterbacks, even if you feel great, it's still like 75, 25, 80, 20. It's almost like big men. It's like you just don't 100% know. Wiseman. To me, James Wiseman is the classic top five quarterback pick. It's like, James Wiseman, such great size and athleticism. And then you watch him and you're like,

oh, he doesn't have it. That's basically like Sam Darnold. Is there any logic to not picking a quarterback, going with Harrison, who you feel is like a certainty now the only logic is trading back okay yeah that if you're gonna not take a quarterback you have to trade back because there's enough good receivers in this year's draft class pick up a bunch of stuff yeah yeah get per set for a year and then figure it out a year from now but you only can do that if you don't like the quarterbacks. Is there a sleeper quarterback

in this year's class that people are like, hey, he could be the guy that ends up better than the top quarterbacks, better than Caleb Williams? No, I don't think anyone feels that about Caleb Williams, but I think there's some Pennix believers.

It's a little Brandon Murray-ish, where his knees are really bad and people don't think he's going to be around maybe for 15 years, but there's talent. So who knows? Alright, we gotta go. You can listen to KFC and The Mismatch. You can watch them on Through the Ringer with

Tate Frazier. When do you go on that show on FanDuel TV? That's changed. What's the new schedule? With the Mismatch playoff scheduling, now I will not be doing Through the Ringer every week. I will be irregular with Tate. Oh, I like you and Tate. I know, I know.

I got to talk to the guy in charge and see if we can fix that. They couldn't shift certain schedules, but hopefully that can do it because I like doing it with Tate every week too. But right now I'm Tuesdays and Fridays with the mismatch, Wednesdays with the Ringer NBA draft show. That's back. So we'll be doing that every week through the draft. Granted, this year is not as interesting with no Wemba and Yama,

but I still think it's going to be a fun draft, an interesting draft, kind of like with no certainty up top. That makes it exciting in a lot of different ways. Great sell, but it's a bad draft. It's a role player draft, Phil. It's a role player draft. We went from Wemba Yama, who's like the most unbelievable thing that's ever happened, to

a bunch of role guys. Find your next Contavious Caldwell Pope in the 2024 NBA draft. I need a stretch shooter. KOC, good to see you. Good to see you too, Bill. Thank you. That's it for the pod. Thanks to Kyle Creighton for producing

thanks to Steve Cerruti as well don't forget to check out youtube.com slash Bill Simmons if you want to watch videos and clips from this and I will see you on Thursday So I never said I don't have feelings within. On the wayside. So I never said I don't have feelings within. Must be 21 plus, 18 plus DC, and present in select states. FanDuel, offering online sports wagager in Kansas under an agreement with Kansas

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