The Bill Simmons Podcast - Part 2: Tankapalooza 2021, Western Predictions, and All-NBA Picks With Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: May 17, 2021

In Part 2 of a two-part podcast, The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss the Clippers' loss to the Thunder, which locked them into a first-round series with the Mavericks. They discuss a Nuggets–Trail Blazers first-round series, the upcoming play-in tournament, what some of the most shocking outcomes would be, and whether or not the new format will stop teams from tanking. Then, as the NBA regular season comes to a close, Bill and Ryen look at the teams with the worst records and what they have to look forward to in the 2021 NBA draft and beyond; they discuss the NBA Hall of Fame, Bill's finalized All-NBA ballot, Western Conference playoff predictions, and more. Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We're on The Rewatchables, which we're dropping some point on Monday, probably Monday night. One of the five biggest movies we've ever done. I'm going to tell you what it is now. Goodfellas. Yeah, we did Goodfellas. We did it in person. We'd been waiting for the end of the pandemic to be vaccinated, to go back in the studio and look at each other.

Me, Chris Ryan, Sean Fantasy. We did it. Goodfellas. It is available, I think on HBO Max, if you want to watch it tomorrow. There's no basketball. What else are you going to do? Coming up part two of our last day of the NBA season extravaganza. Me, Ryan Rossello. Here it is. First project. All right. Part two of our last night of the NBA extravaganza. This was better than I expected. We saw a tank of Palooza 2021 was in rare form.

I'm going to call it the Otoro game. Otoro? Otoro? Yeah, that's good. Otoro? Yeah. He took 21 shots today for the Clippers. They were ISOing him.

I can honestly say I barely knew who this person was, but he turned out to be the guy the Clippers needed. They locked down the Mavericks for round one. Meanwhile, the Mavericks were trying to lose because they were hoping to get Denver. Denver was trying to lose against Portland, which they did. And then the Lakers were trying to win. And there was some scenario where if the Lakers had also lost,

Clips, Mavs might not have happened. And my head was spinning. There are too many possibilities. But ultimately, here's what we have. We have Utah against the eight seed, Phoenix against the seven seed. We have the Clippers playing Dallas and

Denver, Portland. How will you remember tonight? The Poku game or the Otoro game? I thought there was a point where Poku was so red hot to start the game that I thought he was reading mock drafts this morning. It was like, fuck that. Fuck these guys.

This is my team. They're not taking another four. No, I want to, I want to draft a Euro and stash it for two years. Jalen sucks. No, thanks. So then they took them out of the game.

I mean, it's, this is the thing that we all know. Organizations tank coaches can impact tanking with Linus. The players don't tank. I mean, they don't. So I know I was looking forward to this Clippers,

Oklahoma city thing all day going, I wonder how weird this is going to get, because I think we do need to kind of set a timeline at some point, I think, to try to sift through all this as best we can. But as far as that game was concerned, like, and then I started looking like a Baca was back and Beverly was out there and Beverly doesn't know what tanking is. And so then the fourth quarter was Patrick Patterson, Terrence Mann, Yogi Ferrell, Jay Scrubb, and Otoro, who had 31 field goal attempts for his career and took 21 in this game. He was 5 of 21, and the 21st shot was the biggest single possession they had. It looked like they tried to run something for Kennard.

They even brought Kennard back, and I thought that might be actually a bad idea here because the Clippers, clearly, we figured this out, and I think it plays into how a bunch of other things happen today um once we saw the Clippers lose to the Rockets then it kind of set everybody's signal and like okay now we kind of have to program around expecting the Clippers wanting to lose this Thunder game as well on top of the Thunder wanting to lose this to protect their their standing um as far as the worst teams in the league so there you go Vegas had no idea what to do with this game. House and I bet the Thunder money line, which was plus... Oh, man.

You're never going to forget this one. Plus 335. So we were really riding it out. It was quite a day. We had Wizards and Warriors as well, but it was quite a day. And OKC obviously wanted to lose too. There's some lottery stuff that we'll get into in a second

that was pretty crazy. But we talked about this in part one and I tweeted about how you bruiser brodered me. I did a whole thing about how the Clips talked a big game two summers ago. They're going to take basketball away from the Lakers in LA. And now we get to the 2021 playoffs and they're ducking the Lakers. I've been thinking about it ever since, you know, sold me. And if I'm LeBron James, do you remember that clip of LeBron after game six of the 2016 finals? When they were all there putting the puzzle into the thing.

It's a really great clip. He's with his whole team in the locker room after they win game six. And he's like, he's like, those guys are scared. I can see it or whatever he said. He's's like, he's like, those guys are scared. I can see it or whatever he said. He's basically like, he sensed, he sensed something wrong with the words. He's like, we got these guys. We're going to get these guys. I know it. I know it. I can see it. If you think about how LeBron's wired, how long he's been around him, watching the Clippers try to scramble out of getting out of their side of the bracket. If I'm LeBron, I'm like, we got these guys. They don't want to play us. Like,

this is great. This is, they're running from us, basically. Am I crazy to think that he would think that? No, you're not crazy at all. He's definitely going to think that. All of those guys are going to think that. Now, does it mean something? Like if the Clippers have a, end up losing to them somewhere in the playoffs, then that's what everybody's going to point to be like you guys planted the seeds of doubt among your own amongst your own organization and gave the Lakers all the confidence in the world I mean I don't know I think those things look I'd be dismissive to say none of that stuff um happens of course it happens I mean this is sports human beings all these all these types of things but I just know how it'll play out where it could be that paul george

doesn't hit a shot in game six or seven and that's why they lose you know so would that be any different than stuff that we've seen from paul george in the past so i think looking at at how much and i know the clippers like to point to the bubble and say hey it was different um you know everybody had to deal with different challenges and they clearly did not uh respond well to the challenges they had to deal with but i think all the stuff that you're talking about is all extra stuff where like i'm not telling you you're wrong like i agree with you you're right lebron's going to believe all that stuff it's going to play into it if they end up meeting up if they're eliminated everything i just said but i also don't really blame the clippers they were like hey a loss here keeps us on the other side of the Western bracket.

It's like, if you already SPN seven years ago saying like, I'm going to take cowards job someday. And then eventually they were like, Hey, we have an idea. You and coward together, maybe next week for a full week of radio.

And you're like, uh, I'm, I'm actually, I'm getting a root canal. And I just can't be there. Sorry. But down the road, I'd love to kick his ass, I'm actually, I'm getting a root canal, and I just can't be there, sorry. But down the road, I'd love to kick his ass, but just not, you know, anytime soon, maybe next year.

You had a better analogy. Why don't you, because you were, just so people understand, Bill really appreciates when a co-host sells. I think this is what got you in trouble with the book. When the ESPN book came out, didn't you say Tirico didn't sell Kornheiser enough? And then it turned into like a thing. But he didn't.

Right. I like Tirico and I've hashed it out with them, but I didn't feel like he sold Kornheiser enough. Right. You're big on. Kornheiser's my guy. I know. And Tirico's my guy. I don't know Tony at all, but taller than you would think.

I know how big you are on a co-host not selling you. The thing is when I sell you, then people think I'm kissing your ass. And then when I'm not selling you. I gave you the wrong analogy. I texted it to you and it made more sense. I said it was the guy at the Beacon Hill Pub at 1.30 in the morning saying,

I hope Murph doesn't show up here. I'm going to fucking kick his ass. And then Murph shows up and the guy sneaks out the back and he's just out in a cab. It's like, wait a second. I thought you wanted to kick Murph doesn't show up here. I'm going to fucking kick his ass. And then Murph shows up and the guy sneaks out the back and he's just out in a cab. It's like, wait a second. I thought you wanted to kick Murph's ass. That's how I feel about the Clippers. Why are you so afraid of the Lakers?

By the way, the Lakers playing, who are they playing tonight? I'm blanking. They're playing New Orleans, who's trying to tank. They won. And the Lakers kept their dudes out there for the whole game, basically. And LeBron lands on somebody and it looked like he sprained his ankle again. But the Lakers were so desperate

just to get reps with their best seven guys that they had all these dudes out there in the fourth quarter of a game. New Orleans is trying to tank anyway, which brings me to my point. Well, it still actually is a close score. I mean, that was the other part of it where the Lakers are feeling like,

okay, I mean, we'll get to some of the other stuff. Anthony Davis even had a moment, although I think he averages like two ankle knee grabs a game anyway. Yeah, he does. He's, you can't, he's, he's approaching Bob Macadu's career record. I don'tRusso is looking at the bracket and he knows that he has to go through Johnny, but he's thinking, if I can see you a little later, I know I'm going to beat you eventually. No, because he knows he has to go through Dutch. He knows there's other guys. He wants to fight Dutch. Dutch was all talk. Dutch choked.

Like we covered this in the rewatch was that's just flat out choked. He had, he had a Daniel's been batting around and that's just choked. But, uh, with the Clippers, I don't know. You know, now, now they get Dallas who they obviously want. And the Clippers can spin this. Like, look, we just want to play Dallas round one. We don't care. We don't care when we meet the Lakers, but we own Dallas. Dallas obviously feels the same because Dallas was frantically trying to take their way

out of their game. They couldn't succeed. So now they get the Clippers, which I think is a terrible matchup for them. And I'm no longer that excited about that series. If Luca beats the Clippers with the team he has with George and Kawhi basically tag teaming him, like just alternating possessions, that would be an incredible series for him. I don't see it. So if we go over this

and by the way, like Dallas, this is basically I think what happened here because once the Clippers lost to Houston, we're like, okay, it's on. So you can sit there and think you'll know, but you can only really prepare. And I think that's kind of what the second half of the day was today for the seating in the Western Conference is that the Clippers want to lose to get on the other side of the Lakers. All right, fine. Mission accomplished.

And when Denver realizes that because of the Houston game, then Denver's like, well, look, the 3-4 matchup, whatever it is, but if we win and somehow that means Portland loses and then the Lakers have a better record than Portland, then we're winning to get the Lakers in the first round instead of Portland. So we don't want that. Now, we don't know what's going to happen with the Clippers side of this, but we can tell that they're probably going to lose and they have the tiebreaker with them. And then Dallas is looking at it saying, we want to get away from the Clippers, but the only way to do that is probably to lose. So then this whole thing was weird because, I mean, Dallas is going,

we can read what other people are doing, but we're in a tougher spot than everybody else in dictating this, so we can only do what we can do on our side of it. And they had a weird thing where the Lakers game was also part of this too, because if the Lakers, Dallas and Portland all ended up in a three-way

tie, then Dallas won by some division tiebreaker, so they moved to the five seed. So they weirdly needed the Lakers tobreaker so they moved to the five seed so they they weirdly needed the Lakers to lose so they could drop to six right and that so the point is there was a ton of stuff going on it was really hard to prepare for this podcast because there was too many by the way too many scenarios and because of the division tiebreaker of Dallas wins they're still in the five seed anyway. So they probably knew everything. And the other part of you could say, why did they play Doncic so much?

I mean, you know, their task was far harder here. But when you look at it from the Denver side, and that's why that spread was minus 11, it was Portland favored by 11. Portland hits a million threes. I think they had nine threes like 14 minutes into the game. And they're going, well, at the very least,

we can try to prevent the 3-6 matchup because we know the Clippers are going to lose or try to lose because of what they just did on the Houston game. So I think that's just important to kind of tie it all together because even I was going and looking through it and double checking everything, trying to make sure like, okay, let's understand all the motivations here. There was a moment where it looked like we could potentially have Denver versus Dallas and Clippers Portland, which I think are just two better series than what we ended up with. Cause I don't think Dallas can beat the clips. Um, Denver Portland is fun. It's a little bit of a rematch from two years ago, even though there's no Jamal Murray this time around, but that was a really good seven

gamer. And, uh, I know I'll enjoy that series, but you know, I hate that the Clips get rewarded for basically rolling over for the last two. And they get a team that's a better matchup for them. They get to avoid the Lakers. I just think this stuff has a tendency of not working out for the team that does a lot of finagling to try to, you know, get

instead of just being like, fuck it, we'll play whoever. I can't remember a lot of scenarios where this has worked out for that team. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I just can't remember like us looking back after playoffs and going, you know, it was genius when they rolled over for those last three games. And that man did that work out great for them. So Utah is going to play winner of Golden State Lakers. And then the loser of that game will play the winner of Memphis versus the Spurs.

And Memphis could go either way. I've been thinking about that game. They, if Brooks doesn't foul out and granted he commits a ton of fouls and, but they, the fact that that John didn't play that well and they hung around and they were kind of trading punches with golden state during the game when Steph ended up with 46 or whatever. Um, I don't, I don't think that's an easy, let's say Memphis gets by the Spurs. I don't know if that's like an easy game, you know, for the second playing game for whoever does it, make it their golden state Lakers. I think everybody is just thinking like golden State's going to be seven or eight

and Lakers will be seven or eight and that those are eight playoff teams. And my point is, I think Memphis is a tougher out than that. And then the San Antonio, I just have no feel for anymore because it seemed like they've been pretty much below 500 now for two months. And, you know, I don't really expect them to do anything at the same time. You and I both watched them play these games where in the last two minutes, when it's like DeRozan time and DeRozan takes a lot of shit, but it seems like he can get any shot he wants in the last two minutes and

the Popovich thing. And I don't know. I, I just, I like the seven, eight, nine, 10.

It's way stronger than it is in the East, in my opinion. Yeah. I mean, there were the 7, 8, 9, 10. It's way stronger than it is in the East, in my opinion. Yeah. I mean, there are 33 and 39 team, but it's the West. So they'd probably be over 500 if they were in the East. San Antonio is one of the oddest combinations of teams where there's a bunch of guys I like, but I don't like the team. And I don't know that I'm entirely fair with that.

But in a one game situation against Memphis, against Memphis, because Memphis is trying to, on the fly, get all their pieces back here with the Jaron Jackson piece of it and Dylan Brooks for all the crap that he takes. At least you know he's out there fighting like crazy. And that was a big loss when he went down to the game. So I would pick Memphis. I would think Memphis because they've been the better team all season long. But i don't know that i'd be surprised about any of the one game scenario like i wouldn't be surprised if charlotte maybe charlotte beating indiana would be surprising i

still don't think boston beating washington would be this all-time shocking headline and then golden state lakers one game that actually would surprise me unless steph just went nuclear and was pulling up after half court for like 55. There's been some line movement. Indy's favored by three. The Celtics are favored by two and a half against Washington, which I'm just confused by. And then Memphis is favored by three. There is no Golden State-Lakers line yet

because I think they're trying to see who's 100% healthy in that. And I stand by what I said in part one. I think Golden State in one game could get, especially from what I saw from the Lakers tonight, where it's so clear that they're trying to figure out what their team is, just try to get these guys reps with each other. I was thinking, I mentioned this on a pod before I wanted to mention again, watching Golden State Memphis today. I forgot to mention this in part one.

I still feel like a Jaron Jackson, Wiseman trade, some sort of trade with those two as the principles makes a lot of sense for both sides. Because if you're Memphis, you don't have to worry about paying Jackson. I think he's been in the league three years now. So you don't have to worry about his big superstar contract coming up. You buy some time with Wiseman and he's a Memphis guy. And then, you know, with Jackson, he hasn't been exactly the most durable dude either. So you kind of move out of a situation where you'd have to pay somebody a hundred million for four years or whatever it ends up being. And if you're going state, you're getting somebody who can help you next year with Clay. And we're going to talk about the draft pick situation with them after the break. But just in general, what do you think of a Jaron Jackson Wiseman thing? Am I crazy or does that make sense? No, I don't think it's crazy at all because you're right. It restarts the clock. Jackson's been in for three years.

You know, he played in 10 games this year. I think when he's looked great, it's really exciting. I mean, Memphis might still be like look i mean that's a weird one it depends on what their evaluation of wiseman is but i could see them saying hey we already know when this guy's healthy he he plays at like a really promising level not saying he's fixed or perfect or any of these things but like we already know i feel like wiseman was in just such a difficult spot compared to all those other guys so the evaluation on him is just different than some of these other guys. Like imagine if Wiseman were on Charlotte running around for 30 minutes with just,

hey, go out there and be physical and do your thing. I think the Golden State part of it was more, it was harder because it was like, actually we're still trying to like win these games and do rotations and do the right things where I think Wiseman on a lesser team would have been more impressive as a rookie. This Curry, the extraordinary season he had this year.

We've heard this all year about the timetables don't match. By the time Wiseman becomes Wiseman, Curry's prime is going to be over. I look at it a little differently. Curry was so extraordinary this year that you almost have to think with this pick that it looks like they're going to get from Minnesota. It's basically a 75% chance, 72.4% chance that Minnesota sends that pick to Golden State after the way the standings shook out tonight. So you think with that pick, and we both think they can get somebody right away next year who can help. There's a swing guy in this draft that they could potentially get who could help them next year. And then the Wiseman piece you'd have to figure out. And the question would be, could you package Wiseman in that pick for a major guy? Could you flip Wiseman for

something? Use that pick. You have Clay coming back and next year, could you contend? I think the way Curry played this year, the answer to me is yes. Because I think in other years, we'd be talking about him as an MVP. I just think the Jokic and Bede seasons and the fact that we had a shorter season and the fact that those teams were just way more successful took Curry out of it.

But Curry to me is the clear three, as we said in part one. But even if the season were longer, I just don't know how a 7-8 seed, depending on where they would have ended up I just don't know how a seven, eight seed, you know, depending on where they would have ended up. I don't know that guy, even with Curry having this kind of season,

like I'd love to come up with an argument for him getting the MVP with other factors, but you know, shorter season, longer season, it's, it's joke at your, uh,

joke at your, it's MB. You know, if we played 82 of these and you're still the seven or eight seat, I'd have a hard time voting for that guy. My question is if they had 10 more games could they have gotten a little bit higher is that a possibility i don't know um yeah maybe the six maybe they get the six seed um let's take a break because i want to talk about uh the lottery stuff because

there's some really big shit that happened with the standings. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Superbowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Superbowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. All right, Tankapalooza 2021. Here's our order. We have Houston in the one spot, Detroit two, Orlando three,

OKC, thanks to their dramatic win tonight, their fourth, Cleveland fifth, and Minnesota, because of their win tonight, their sixth. There were some ties heading into tonight that now fell apart. And then Toronto is seventh, and I want to talk about them in a second. But Minnesota was five and five in their last 10. They dropped to the sixth spot. And now it is basically a three

and four chance that they're going to send their lottery pick to Golden State because of how they finished the season. If there were Minnesota fans out there, and there are not that many, they have to be going nuts. You have OKC sending Al Horford away. I don't know what SGA's injury was that had him mishap the season. It was a hip? OK, I'll take their word for it. And then Poco just basically clearing out for Poco

for the last two months of the season so he could throw no look passes that hit cameraman. And then you have Minnesota just being like, all right, we have a new coach. Let's go for Anthony Edwards, work of the year. Towns is feeling it. Let's just try to win these. They're going to lose like a major asset because of how they finished it. So I don't know that to me, that's just a shoddy organization.

They've been bad for a long time. The Russell trade is historically bad for this decade, and it goes to the territory for them. It's awful that they're most likely going to end up losing this pick, but you could see going back a month that they were actually playing harder. So if you want to look at it from the other side, you go, okay, we're this terrible organization that hasn't won forever. We want to figure out a way to have Towns be a guy that's not going to ask out of here in a year, right? So they trade for Russell, which you're right, is a disaster, which is just another lesson in how crazy the market can be for a player and of think of what that trade was 12 months and then 12 months later what the value of each player was it was almost like oh cool we got we got rid of Chris Paul and then you're like actually so anyway moving back to that you get a new coach who's

coming in with all sorts of scrutiny because they didn't bump up an interim head coach and they did something that not many organizations do although I'm telling you right now I don't know Finch at all the amount of text from around the league that I got are calls being like hey if you don't know anything about him understand he's one of the most impressive offensive minds i've ever been around so people raved about him and they went out and and got their guy so you're trying to like the whole culture thing you're not going to sell me on it but i can at least understand them going hey we got all the pieces back russell came back from injury edwards has had this run we've got a couple other nice little younger pieces that we like around the core of this yeah and i'm like okogi i really like um even vanderbilt comes in and gives them some good

minutes i'm serious like there's a couple guys i like with that team so you could see that they were competing they were fighting naz read yeah let's. So I feel like the organization was probably like, we know what we should do, but do we just want to try to just feel like there's something about us that can carry down? I think a lot of that stuff can be fake. Like when the team's like, let's get that AC and play off and we're going to learn from it. And our team's going to be more mature. And you're like, all right, cool. You got swept in the first round. So now next year you're going to come back. And I think a lot of that stuff can be overrated, but in this case, I at least understand Minnesota's thinking to close the season, even though it's a disaster. Is that fair?

Totally fair. I, I guess their motto would be the Phoenix suns in the bubble last year, like getting some momentum from a nice way to end the season that ultimately diminishing in this case though, all they had to do was win two less games and they're in a two way to end the season that ultimately did many a thing. In this case, though, all they had to do was win two less games and they're in a two-way tie for the three pick. And their entire destiny has changed. So the five and five in the last 10, it's a murder. And the thing with this draft,

it really is, it's a murder. Because this draft... This draft is so good, man. Depending on who you talk to, it's either a guaranteed top six or a guaranteed top seven. But if the Warriors get, let's say they get the sixth pick out of this that's mitchell's brother potentially who would play right away for them and be really good so i don't know it's an amazing

stroke of luck for them two other things happen maybe that's what happened maybe russell like pulled up some youtube clips of davion mitchell and showed him Edwards or Jalen Suggs or Cade Cunningham. They were like, yeah, we don't need those guys. Let's play real hard because we don't want to give the ball up. You know, you joke, but I wouldn't actually put that past. If you're D'Angelo Russell, why do you want Cade Cunningham on your team?

I think D'Angelo Russell is capable of anything. He's capable of anything except for making a good decision in the last minute of the game. Houston has a 47.9% chance of handing their pick to OKC. So they, they traded hard and they got nothing for him, but a bunch of future picks from Brooklyn. And this year's pick swap, but it doesn't look like that's going to be. And a pick swap that's not helping them.

And on top of it, OKC might. Yeah. Chicago has a 73.7. By the way, this is all from Chad Ford, our friend who tweeted these earlier. Chicago has a 73.7% chance of giving their pick to Orlando. Now, if you're Orlando and you've weirdly had good luck with the lottery and bad luck with every other aspect of basketball.

You think they've had good luck with the lottery? Well, they won Shaq and Weber back to back years. Oh, you meant in olden days. Because I would argue in the last decade, whatever was their pick was when the draft dropped off. For like three years in a row. Like, hey, oh, okay, we missed

it by one. Right. So anyway, Chicago did just enough work that they have a puncher's chance of maybe keeping their pick if it's top four. We'll see. Are we staying on tanking?

Because I want to, whenever you're done, just keep going. But I have something I want to add on the end. Go, please add it now. Okay. Because watching these last two days, I guess I felt like I was taking crazy pills. And this is on top of what we already talked about on the Eastern part of this, this podcast is that in the moment, the play in thing is like, Oh my God,

look at all this crazy stuff that's happening. Playing game, playing game, playing game. Okay. I am not anti the entertainment that we were all going to enjoy with the playing game set up this week. It's going to be,

it could, could be chance for like, awesome. So if there's a great game, it doesn't mean like, Hey, anybody who didn't like the playing game, you're wrong.

The other part of this is that the play-in game fixes tanking. And I shouldn't even say fixes tanking because I don't think anybody smart is arguing that fixes tanking, but it impacts tanking in a way that's more positive for the league. Because I think you and I both agree there have been years in the past where it felt like a third of the league already wanted to lose all their games before the games even started. And that's terrible.

Now you can still have that because tanking is really a year by year thing. So when I say like, Hey, you realize like a lot of these games today, it has nothing to do with if there were no playing game, golden state Memphis is elimination. You know, Washington Charlotte,

still an important game, all these seating things. It doesn't really have anything to do with the playing game. Other than that, maybe you're trying to avoid the Lakers who are going to be in the playoffs anyway. But if we're looking specific to this year on tanking and saying that the play-in game helped the league avoid tanking

for more teams, I don't buy it. Charlotte wasn't tanking. Charlotte's stale. Charlotte was trying. If they had this kind of record and felt like they were in the mix, I mean, they should have been tanking last year when they were winning all these weird games.

The Pacers weren't tanking the wizards. I don't think they're tanking. If there's a longer season and there's no play in game, do you think they just shut it down with Westbrook and not knowing what Beal's future is? No chance Celtics, not taking Chicago traded draft picks for Vucevic. So they weren't taking either.

And then on the other side, San Antonio doesn't tank. Memphis is not tanking. So if there were no play in game and look, they were still tied going into this thing today with Golden State. So if you say that the play in game helped avoid tanking for this season, I would tell you the teams that tanked were going to tank no matter what you had. And the teams that went for it were still going to go for it based on who they were as a franchise and where they were in the standings, even if we had a normal season, even without the playing game. All fair points. I think it's hard to say when we don't have the extra 10 games because that's a significant amount of time post-All-Star break for teams to kind of look at it and go, hmm, what should we do?

I think with the condensed schedule... Or they could go with 10 extra games. Let's keep fighting for it. No, but I'm saying the condensed schedule just kept the records a little bit closer together. So I think sometimes it was harder to even know what to do. Like Toronto, who I think wanted to tank this whole season and couldn't really do it because they were pretty close.

They're too good. I mean, before that COVID thing wiped do it because they were pretty close. They're too good. I mean, before that COVID thing wiped them out, they were still okay. Yeah. And then I think the last week and a half or so, they realized like, fuck it, let's go. Yeah. Let's see next year. Because I think next year with the longer schedule, it's going to rope more teams into maybe not packing it in as early as sometimes we see with these 82 games

i'm in complete agreement with you on that one i am talking about you're right for this season that's a fair point for me and you know how it is this is all i did for the last 72 hours was watch this and read about it except for some naps in between and the coverage was constant like oh my god the play-in game the play-in game, the play-in game. And you just go, well, all right, but without it, and again, I'm not saying that it doesn't positively impact the problem that is tanking. In the concept of it, I'd imagine, yeah,

with five or 10 years of this, you're right. But for this season to say like this weekend is only this way because of the play-in game, I thought was a little, a little bit of missing the point. There's a weightiness though, to the way they set up the plan, where if you're the Lakers and now you have to go against Curry,

not a picnic, you have a better team. You have more talent, but you also haven't played together at all. Let's say you lose that one. Now it's like, all right, we have a do or die game to make the playoffs.

That's pretty cool. Versus they would just be in as the seventh seed under normal circumstances. That's going to be cool. I like it. No, you got me. You got me on that one. I can see that.

Right. If you want to go back. So they did this in the seventies and early eighties. Don't ask why, but I was looking through Kareem's career the other day. And I do a bad job with Kareem because I never saw any of the peak stuff. And I can only go back and read about it. I mean, obviously, I can go back and watch YouTube, but I didn't live. I lived with old Kareem.

So I was too dismissive of his standing against the other greats Cause he's never brought up in any of the top five stuff. Really? Well, he, he should be because he's your five, by the way. Um, Jordan,

Russell or LeBron, LeBron or Russell Kareem. Okay. So he's four. Oh, he's easily for Dave Collins. Five. Dave counts is really good.

I wasn't even trying. Definitely. Definitely. You know, but I was looking through because I was trying to figure out why Gus Williams, because now everybody's making the Hall of Fame, right? Like Ben Wallace made it today. Everybody's just going to get in now. By the way, thank you.

Like, I love Ben Wallace. I remember watching him with Orlando going like, you know who I kind of like is Ben Wallace I'm like there's something to this guy and then it's like oh he's a Hall of Famer like when I saw that I went

well just everyone's getting in now Gus Williams everybody gets in everybody gets in Gus Williams is not in so I was looking I was looking at Gus Williams

I was looking at Seattle in 77, 78, 79, and 80 where Seattle makes the finals two years in a row and then they make the conference finals three straight years, right? As, as good as anything, the Pistons did.

And Gus Williams was awesome. And he was the best player at a team that won the title. He was a point guard who, you know, I was probably the best offensive point guard in the league in the late seventies. And they have this year. So Kareem gets traded to the Lakers, 75, 76. They don't make the playoffs. They finish 40-42, but they have this stupid division rule

where the teams from the other division, you needed like the four teams in each division. They don't make it. There's a team that, two teams make it that one team had won seven games less than them and they made it. So anyway, they would have caused a riot if we had the internet now. So then the next year,

um, they make it, they make round two, but then in 78, they play Seattle in a best two of three. This is when they started doing these best two of threes and some really good players, really good teams lost these best two or threes,

including the 1978 LA Lakers who lose to Seattle. Seattle had done jack shit at that point. Here's who's on the Lakers team. They had Adrian Dantley, Jamal Wilkes, Lou Hudson, Charlie Scott, Norm Nixon, and Kareem in his prime. And they lose, they lose, uh, they lose two to one to Seattle and Seattle moves on. But this would happen year after year where you'd have like, there was that one year, the 81 Lakers lost to Houston. Remember that one, Moses beat the Lakers. They knocked the defending champion Lakers out. So there's like five of those from that era where we kind of don't factor that into the playoff picture where it was just like, yeah, you could just lose two games.

All of a sudden you're going home. I do think the plan is going to have that at some point with somebody. I don't know if it'll be this year. There's going to be a year where like a team like the Lakers, that's clearly good, but had some injuries. The record was low and it's like, oh, they'll, they'll get through the plan thing. And then, and then all of a sudden they're going to be out of the playoffs. And we're going to be like, what the fuck just happened?

Cause that was Kareem in 1978. That was magic and Kareem in 1981. They lost to a 40 and 42 Rockets team in the best two or three. And people were like, what the fuck just happened? The Lakers were, were the favorites in the West. They're out. We've played three playoff games. So anyway, look, the same thing happens in the NCAA tournament. Like we love Cinderella's until they're in your final four. And you're like, wait, like I can't watch UNC Kentucky. Like what happened here?

Whenever you bring up that Sonics team, because I remember when the heat militia at ESPN, he culture was strong. And I was like, look, that, that team, I was like the Oh six Miami heat title team was like, the 06 Miami Heat title team

is the worst team to win a title in my lifetime. And people were like, and up in arms, because you're in the moment and you're going, oh, you're just a hater or whatever. I'm like, no, let's go through it. Let's go through all those teams, whether it's the Sixers. When I first was basketball conscious, 82, 83 Sixers, and then Celtics, Lakers, Pistons, Bulls, Houston. I mean, look, I don't need to go through everything. Everybody can fill in the rest of it.

But I was like, that team's the worst team. Like somebody has to be the worst team of a 30 year run to win an NBA title. And then the next year they got swept in the first round by the Chicago Bulls. All right. And I felt like, yeah, see, that's what I'm telling you. Now that was a shortened season and it looked like those guys weren't super locked in after winning it. But I used to always say it's probably the worst team to win. Is that the worst team to win a title since the 78-79 Supersonics? Or am I dismissing that Sonics team?

Sonics team was good. Really good back. Is there a worse one then, other than miami that i'm not thinking of um i think the 94 rockets even though hakeem was great but that's like it's just hakeem and some role players and i know i just can't do it to hakeem no i know but if they i think why why seattle throws people off the scent because they didn't have like a Pantheon guy. Right. Right.

Right. Exactly. But, um, but yeah, I agree with you on the Oh six seat. I also think the Oh three Spurs, same thing.

They had a Pantheon player in Duncan, but other than that, it's like Steven Jackson was the second best guy in the team. Manu and Tony were not even close to any, anything where they would end up being. That's a good sneaky one. That would never be brought up. Robinson was like in a back brace.

So those would be mine. But with the Seattle one, though, they beat the Lakers. They beat the Blazers, suited up Bill Walton. Then they have this awesome series against David Thompson in Denver, and they beat them. In the 78, they could have had Dr. J against David Thompson in Denver and they beat, they beat them in the 78. They could add Dr. J against David Thompson. And instead it ends up being Washington, Seattle, and everybody's just super bummed out because

it was like, these are the two most exciting players in the league are about to play each other in the finals. And then it doesn't happen. But as I was researching this, you're going to like this. Um, Marvin Webster on Seattle, the center they had, the human eraser. In the playoffs, he averaged 16 points, 13 rebounds, 2.6 blocks,

and took out Kareem. Basically went toe-to-to toe with everybody and was like, this is the next guy who signs him with a massive free agent contract over the summer. And he disappears to New York Knicks. The Knicks are like, here's our guy. This is our savior, the human eraser. And he immediately gets knee tendonitis and falls off a cliff. Yeah. He's from, uh, he's from Maryland. I'm looking him up now because I always immediately am like, all right, the human eraser. Also Marvin the Magnificent.

There's nothing that gets me more excited than nicknames no one's ever heard of. But Marvin Webster, I wouldn't have known. The human eraser was a real nickname. So yeah, they had Dennis Johnson,

they had Gus Williams, they had Jack Sikma. DJ and Sikma are both in the Hall of Fame. And my point is, Gus Williams should be the Wallace thing. I mean, come on. I don't know what we're doing.

I really don't. And I really like Ben Wallace. I actually thought he was the best. If you had a playoffs MVP in 2004, he wins. But, you know, the case for him would be he's on that one team. Defensive player of the year. He was the worst free throw shooter of all time, I think. I actually think he's the number one worst free throw shooter

we've ever had. When you say he's an offensive liability, he was one of the most detrimental offensive players except for offensive rebounds that you could have on the court. And his run was basically six years. So if he makes it, then to me that opens the door up for a whole bunch of people now i think the hall is too easy to get into look i love ben wallace too i was shocked i was shocked because i i'm like i just wish this is my belief i just wish it were

more difficult to get into that's it i just think hall of fames across the board in all sports should be more difficult i think we should be looking at listed names being like oh this guy isn't in and instead of being like ah you know that one's borderline so you know if it's borderline then it's a no i think it should be really really difficult and you know we've been on this topic a few times before but more people are going to listen to this and disagree with us too i know exactly what's going to happen well because he was a recent player like when the kyle lowry stuff happened, Kyle Lowry's getting into the Hall of Fame. 100%.

But I would think if you, and by the way, when Kyle Lowry's stats are done and all of it, like he's definitely getting in. But I think whatever imaginary level of the Hall of Fame I have in my head, I think it should be something where you were clearly for a long time

one of the great players of your generation and not somebody who just won and was really, I'm not even talking about Lowry now at this point. Like, Bosh, you knew would be in immediately. I mean, I know I sound nuts on that one, but, you know, I'm just going to lose, I'm going to lose everybody on this.

I just think the Hall of Fame should be hard. No, we just have, we have different standards. It's like, I actually, You and I? No, no, I think you and I have different standards and I think some people are all famed. I actually thought C-Web belonged

because for like a five-year span, he was one of the best five to ten players in the league every single year. He was the best guy on a team that almost won the title. And to me, you have to be at that level. That's why with Gus Williams, he was the best player on the title team.

He was first team All-NBA in 82. He was first team All-NBA in 82. He was second team All-NBA in 1980 and was the focal point of a team that made the finals twice and conference finals once. My point is, if Ben Wallace gets in and Gus Williams, now you're letting in Gus Williams

and everybody at that level. That's what's going to happen. And by the way, Robert Hoare is going to get in too, which I'm fine with because I thought he was the greatest role player of his generation michael cooper should get in yeah but you just answered everybody's going to get in they're all going to get in i don't think ori should be in i mean i'm blown away if we're letting if we're letting 14 people in per class all those guys are going to get in they're all going to get in they're all going to get in. Danny Ainge is going to get in.

I mean, that's insane. Ainge is a player. Now, you can make the argument when you have the executive side of it that he's going to get in. He won a ring and he's going to be with the Celtics for almost two decades. So, that one. But as a player, Ainge getting in? I mean, that's when you start to lose me. That's where I'm just going like,

you've got to be kidding me. Bobby Jones got in and that was another one who was he was the best defensive forward of his era. I thought he was great. I was really surprised that he got in. I never watched him and thought this. I love Bobby Jones. He was like always. Now, his career is a little different.

So I caught him towards the end. Still loved him. But you were never going like, oh, my God, we get like Bobby Jones. You know, this is this is the guy. This team is built around Bobby Jones. And so when I look at like Ben Wallace, the scoring part of doesn't matter. I was arguing with a friend about this, right? Because he was like, oh, how?

Because he knew he was like Ben Wallace, you know, dot, dot, dot. I went, yeah, I don't know. I'm like, I give up. I give up. And he said, why do you think it's like if you argue against Ben Wallace and look at the offensive numbers? I mean, he never even averaged double figures at any season in his entire career. I don't believe the rebounding numbers are there. We know how great he was defensively.

He came at me with this and he said, if you're cool with a defensive player getting into the Pro Football Hall of Fame, why do you have a problem with Ben Wallace getting into the Hall of Fame? And I think he thought he got me. And I was like, because he also has to play on fucking offense. Right. Yeah. It's like, what? Did you think you won with that? Well, defensive players in the NFL only play defense.

I think he also had really good timing just for when he peaked the way basketball was being played back then. It was really slow. It was physical. You had these games that were like 82 to 80 and 79 to 75, stuff like that. And they also had four talented offensive players in their team. So they didn't really necessarily need anything from him.

I really like Ben Wallace. I feel bad downing anybody who makes the Hall of Fame because it's, it's such a great honor. It's such great achievement. I just two guys on a podcast are dumping on you. I don't know what you're doing. You're doing this for decades. So, but I just, this is why I wrote a book blowing up the hall of fame and starting over because I didn't, there's so many people in the hall of fame. Even when I wrote the book at oh nine, then I'm like, wow, Casey Jones, who was an awesome Celtics, but he

was not a hall of famer. Not as a player. He was basically, he made it as a player. He's in. What year did he get in? He got in pretty, pretty soon after he, after he finished like within 10 years. And he was basically like Ben Wallace as a guard, right? He was an incredible defensive player and you know, not a good offensive player anyway he was uh see here's the deal though he's inducted in 89 so when casey jones was inducted i thought there was kind of like a nod to the fact that you were there no for those mids are separate so yeah i know but don't you think that there's some part of that that permeates into the decision that hey this is another part of it i mean I mean, look, I don't know what happens

there. What year are you getting in? Stop. The one that was in defense was Cotton Fitzsimmons. Got in and never coached in a finals game. Coached in one conference finals, and the reason he got in

was Jerry Colangelo runs the Hall of Fame, and that's his guy. If you keep talking like this, your year is going to keep getting pushed back. I honestly don't care. Jim Gray got in. Come on.

Jim Gray got in? Jim Gray got the Kurt Gowdy thing. I guess his two contributions were the Artest melee and the decision. I don't know enough about the media stuff. I don't know enough about enough about the media I was happy to see Wilbon

and Wilbon to get in as a hall of famer I couldn't believe for Breen right I was sometimes the media ones I'll be like wait that guy wasn't in yet I mean baseball it's like hey are you almost dead you're in can we do a special hall of famer podcast because i think it should almost be a game show where i'll be like do you think this person's in and you'd be like now and i'm like yeah got it in 1988 it would suck because i'd be the only guest because you already know because you already went through it all so i would just keep saying no and i would score a zero out of it i'm just telling you ben wallace is in gus williams has to be in that. That's where we're at. I defer to you. I defer to you on that one.

By the way, Ben Wallace getting in before Rasheed Wallace? Rasheed Wallace. Who is a better player at their peak? Wait. Just take a break. What does possible sound like for your business? It's having the spend that powers your scale with no preset spending limit. More cash on hand to grow your business with up to 55 interest-free days.

And the ability to reach further with access to over 1,400 airport lounges worldwide. Redefine Possible with Business Platinum. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. All right, coming back. This is off the rails as we knew it probably would be. Most likely upset.

Let's just go chalk. Let's say Utah Golden Golden State, Lakers, Phoenix, Dallas, Clippers, Denver, Portland. Who's in the best spot to pull off an actual upset? And by the way, the Lakers will be favored, I think, in the Phoenix series. So Phoenix

would be the upset pick in my opinion. I hate this for Phoenix so much because I don't think it's just the Lakers thing that everyone was going to feel like getting him in the first round. But from a basketball matchup standpoint, and we got a real taste of it in that game with

Anthony Davis not that long ago. And the size with Drummond when they want to go big with LeBron and even bring in Montrez, they just don't have any size. I mean, I give Aiton credit. He fights like crazy, but it's, it's the kid from Maryland Smith or charge as a small ball five.

It's tough. I'm bummed out because I wanted to pick Phoenix Philly today. That's not happening. Your guy, Chris Paul. It's going to be the worst. It's going to be the worst. It could be on round one.

Because it'll be... I'm going to do the Mellow thing maybe this week. I'm sorry I interrupted you, but I have to just get this out. When people dump on Mellow from a playoff failure thing, I'm like, okay, fine.

But go through every year. And almost every time he lost, he lost to a better team. Chris Paul's going to lose in the first round and people are going to be like, Chris Paul, he's cool. Or maybe they won't. Maybe they won't.

How close are LeBron and Chris Paul? Best friends? Friends? Celebrity friends? Do they talk more than I talk to House? No. So I was going to say, if LeBron was a good friend, he would throw the playing game, get the eight spot, take Utah out and do it that way. And then get the Clippers in the second round and be like, see?

I don't like how the West worked out. I'm bummed out. I like the way the West worked out. No, I'm bummed out because the Lakers are going to beat Phoenix. We're going to talk ourselves into Utah getting beaten by Golden State and Curry and the whole thing, and then we're going to actually watch the series

about, oh my God. You and I won't, but the normal people are going to be like, oh my God, watch Golden State. We believe 2.0. I was making jokes about that on Twitter. I would love to see it happen. I just don't think they have the firepower against that Utah team. It would be, if they beat Utah, this Curry season would start to take on like really

all time single season, somebody throwing a random team on their back scale. Just so we have it here, here are the minutes. Because I know people are busy. Some of those games for the East Coasters is late. But if it ends up being Utah and Golden State in that first round, there's going to be the playoff guy who jumps in. And they're going to have a whole new appreciation for Steph Curry because they'll be like,

wait, are you serious? What the hell's going on here? Like Toscano Anderson, who I actually love, energy guy, he's fifth in minutes right now for this team. Bazemore's playing 20 minutes a game. Jordan Poole's playing 20. I like him.

Damian Lee's playing 19. Kevon Looney's, I mean, they've even missed some of these guys for long stretches. I mean, their top three guys are Curry, Wiggins, and Draymond. For the Wiggins part of it that's nicer in its moments, he's still

Andrew Wiggins. And in a playoff game, like, yeah, I'll probably have... Look, you can get 20. You get enough shots, you get enough minutes, you're going to get 20. 20 he averaged 19 a game this season and he actually shot it uh he shot it pretty well for him this year too so he outplayed russell and i think he i think he certainly was above what they could have possibly hoped for and expected from that trade at the same time it should be a concern when you've been in the league for seven years now and every time you do something good or an important moment of the game,

your teammates react like you're the team manager who came off the bench and got to shoot your first three and made it. That's how they react. Every time he does something good, it's bizarre. It's like, this guy was the number one pick of the draft. He's not like the mascot,

but that's, they, they're so, so determined to, to just pump him up, support him. They know they need him, but again, as you said, he's unfortunately Andrew Wiggins. It's also just a great reminder in the lessons of trying to evaluate players and drafting them in any sport. Because when you watched Wiggins, you went, his athleticism, his length. I thought he was going to be pipping.

I think I wrote that once. I wrote that. I think he had pipping potential as a defensive perimeter guy. But you just don't know. Unless you're around him all the time and Bill Self loves you and trusts you and goes, hey, he's just not wired that way, which is the answer to the Andrew Wiggins problem. Because there are still moves that he'll make in a game. He's going to make one in the Lakers game where he's going to dribble hard, like right into the paint.

He's going to get an angle on you and he's going to spin all the way around and finish in like a 270. And you're going to go, oh my God. Whereas if you saw that at Kansas, all you're thinking of is all the great things because you're not around him enough. You haven't seen him enough.

You're just going to think, hey, he's going to get better and better. He's going to work hard. Oh, he's a great kid. He's Canadian. Canadians get along with everybody. The floor for Wiggins was like 15 a game shot will get better, but he's always going to play defense. And that was the thing is that Wiggins never even played any defense with Minnesota and the shot every time he'd have like a month where it looked like he was going to shoot it better. Then all of a

sudden, everybody's like, oh, he's starting to figure out. He's starting to figure out. This is not about physical talent. It's not about being a good guy or bad guy it's not about any of those things because it's certainly not a system it is all about how you are wired and that's why we will always fail with drafting players there's an extra work ethic thing you know i think by the time you're 15 or 16 and you're playing at a certain level in high school club, what a, whatever, everybody's talented after a certain point. Right. I say it like watching my daughter and the teams they play, like everybody's good. There's just, it's a point where it's just like, yeah, everybody's talented. All right. So what's the next level? It's the kids

that are like psychotic about just trying to get better and better and better, you know? And that's why, that's why I never gave up RJ Barrett stock. Cause I just think he's wired like that. I think he's one of those dudes. That's just every summer is really going to give a shit and work on his game. That's why Randall became the guy he became over the last couple of years because he put in the fucking work and with Wiggins, he has all the gifts.

But at some point, if you're missing that last tiny piece it's you can be as talented as you want that last piece is always going to matter I'm guilty of it too but that's why I can be like more dismissive than other people because like when you're in the league four or five years I don't want to hear about it anymore like that's probably who you're going to be you know the Randall thing I don't feel like it's as huge of a step for him as maybe other most people probably do yes he's far better this year but he also has a team that's basically built around him the shooting got better the passing i think was always there but now he has the ball all the time too so when people have

asked me like oh my god did you ever expect this of Randall? I'm like, okay, this is amazing. And we probably thought his ceiling was lower based on what we'd seen, but I always thought he was like a really talented guy. The difference is he's a really talented guy in a team that's a four seed, which in the past it felt like, hey, he's one of those super talented guys on the team, maybe not even making the playoffs. He's a classic. Wow. Did he go to the wrong team and have the worst possible scenario? It was, it was almost like the lottery version of Gordon Hayward breaking his ankle, you know, a quarter and a half into a Celtic experience. Randall goes to Lakers. He breaks his leg in the first game. Then the next season, it's the Kobe farewell tour. Then the next season, they're rebuilding.

And it's like three years just down the drain in the worst possible situation you could be in if you're him. Then he goes to New Orleans. He thinks he's playing with Davis. And within half a season, Davis is trying to get out of there. And I don't know. I think if you play his career 10 times, this is probably one of the worst versions of it.

All right. Can we do all NBA? So I'm doing Jokic, Giannis, Luka, Curry. I'm making Luka forward. And then go slower. Jokic, Giannis, Luka, Curry. And I'm putting Dame as my second first team guard. Okay. Dame was 29 second first team guard.

Okay. Dame was 29, four and eight. By the way, Dame's last six, even before this year, he had one first team, three second teams, two third teams. He's either going to be first or second this year. This is pretty impressive. Seven straight years of you're at least one of the top 15 guys, but this will be five out of the last seven when he was i know for a guy that top 10 guy he always feels like he's being looked over and

you're like you know what to me dame's always kind of been exactly where he was supposed to be like everybody that knows knows how awesome he is but you know what like you weren't better than curry so two things with that one is um made Luca a forward just because it made the list easier I wanted the list to look good I refused to put Embiid as a forward yeah we've been over this

first time on B.A. we went over that I'm not going to argue with you anymore second team Embiid Kawhi Randall Jimmy Butler at guard

Chris Paul so for Chris I think Chris is going to end up second team that will give him guard, Chris Paul. So for Chris, I think Chris is going to end up second team. That will give him four first teams, five second teams, one third team. Pretty impressive. Nine times in his career,

he's one of the 10 best guys in the league. Randall, I think, is guaranteed has to be second team. I know some people who are putting him third team. For LeBron? Yeah. Jackie said this, and I know one other person who I don't want to say. We're basically like, if I'm voting LeBron to be all-NBA,

I'm not putting him on third team. He has to be second team. But to me, it's like, you can't put him ahead of Randall. And so now it comes down to LeBron versus Kawhi, and they basically have the same stats. LeBron's 25-8-8. Kawhi was 25-7-5. Shooting percentages are

pretty similar. Kawhi's a better free throw shooter. Kawhi's a much better defensive player at this point in their careers. You sure about that? Yeah. You don't agree with that? I think Kawhi floats a lot now. Yeah, but who's just a better defensive player? I think Kawhi floats a lot now. Yeah, but who's just a better defensive player?

It's Kawhi. When they want to be? Yeah. Yeah, I bet you the metrics, because I remember looking at those at some point this year with LeBron. I was like, oh my God, these are off the charts. I think eye test, I'm with you on what their ceiling is.

I just think there's also another part of Kawhi where he has some pretty coasting moments. Well, let's talk this out, because I haven't officially decided on this yet. test I'm with you on what their ceiling is I just think there's also another part of Kawhi where he has well let's talk this out because I haven't officially decided on this yet so Kawhi played 52 games LeBron played 45 that's what I figured was the separator for you that's what I thought you were going because I'm with you I don't think you do this to Randall where you put LeBron because he's LeBron second team because you can't put him third I think that's kind of weird like what's the whole fucking point of Randall doing what he just did then if you're going to be because of LeBron's rep to that, that's,

that's, that's bullshit by the way, that's total bullshit. And you shouldn't do it that way. I can't put LeBron third. So I'm going to fuck over Randall because he's LeBron. I'm not, I'm not saying you're doing it,

but whoever's doing that to take off. Well, were they doing it? Cause like, I don't know. All right. Well, the tiebreaker is kawaii

playing more games i keep i keep interrupting but i just got passionate kawaii missed 20 games but didn't really have an injury it was all like load management stuff they were 36 and 16 when he played the lakers were 30 and 15 when lebron played to me it's close and kawaii just played more games and leBron basically missed the last six, seven weeks of the season. So I'm putting LeBron in the third team. My third team, Gobert, Paul George, LeBron,

Bradley Beal, Kyrie Irving. Here's the case for... Here's Kyrie. The Nets were one of the four best teams in the league I just felt weird having three all NBA teams with no Nets when they're the favorites to win the title Kyrie played 53 games

he was 27-5-6 and he was 50-40-90 he's only the 9th guy ever to be a 50-40-90 guy Kyrie played 53 games. He was 27, 5, and 6. And he was 50-40-90. He's only the ninth guy ever to be a 50-40-90 guy. He finished as 50-40-92. They were 35-18 when he played. And, you know, if Kawhi's going to make it, then Kyrie has to make it because they basically played the same games

and Kyrie actually had better stats. So I put him in over Harden. The Harden-Houston thing, I just don't think you could be rewarded for that. I couldn't do it. And Harden didn't play enough games either. What about Booker? Couldn't get there with Booker.

If you go Booker side-by-side with Kyrie, you kind of can't unless you wanted to say, hey, I want to give the best score on the two seed. The deal, considering you played 67 games and Kyrie, you kind of can't unless you wanted to say, hey, I want to give the best score on the two seed deal considering he played 67 games and Kyrie played 53. Kyrie's stats are incredible this year. They're incredible. They're a good team. So I'm not going to argue against it. And with all the flux they had with Harden and Durant being out, he was kind of the one semi-constant, even though he disappeared twice. Paul George, I really did look at trying to figure out, do I have to put him on a 13-mile NBA? And he was 23-7-5, 47-41-87 shooting splits. They were 38-16 when he played.

And I was trying to think like a Zion spot there, but just over the course, I just tried to stay true to what my all NBA principles are. And Zion's team didn't make the playoffs. Didn't even finish over 500. And I just couldn't get there with that one. The only other one was Tatum. Tatum, I think the COVID thing, I think if he doesn't get COVID, I actually think he would have nudged Paul George out of that spot. What do you mean? Missed games or his stats? Because his stats after COVID were insane. He missed eight games

and then the first couple when he came back, he was having issues breathing and stuff. Really, since the all-star break, he's been lights out. Um, but I think he's the best player in a Celtics team that just, you know, was heroically underachieved.

So I just felt weird about putting him in all NBA, big ramifications for the Celtics for Tatum, not making it. I mean, it's like a 30, 35 million contract swing. Same thing for Mitchell, who I don't think is going to make it either.

And Booker will probably, both Booker and Mitchell will probably make it at some point. But all three of those have big NBA implications. Anything, anyone I'm missing? I would vote Zion over Paul George. I would go, you know what? It's third team.

He was one of the three most exciting players to watch all year. His numbers are better across the board than George's except for, you know, the outside shooting part of it. His, wait a minute. His rebounds are actually close in the assist. He's,

he's probably gonna, yeah, he's got a, he's got a, cause Paul George's assist numbers here were better. I would give it to Zion. I know the team wasn't as good, but he played – I mean, honestly, Zion was going to play the entire season,

and George missed time again. So I would try to find another guy that played like a full season and was a huge part of this and I thought was really good in a difficult situation. Like, I don't feel like that team was losing games because of Zion. I mean, if anything, he was the only one keeping him float there so i would just kind of like when i think back on the season like who were the most impressive people i watched zion's one of the 10 most impressive players if not five most impressive players i watched all season long

so to think that he wasn't one of the 15 best this year i would i would have him there. Well, in the words of the immortal Ryan Rosillo, we were going to have some snubs this year. It's just the way it goes. Yeah, that's what I don't like about the snub thing. You go, hey, some years, this is just what it's going to be. But all the TV shows are going to freak out. Mitchell's not going to be on it. Booker's not going to be on it.

I already know the arguments. One seed in the West. Mitchell leading scorer is not there. Him not playing towards the end of the year cost him that. The Kyrie one, I didn't know if you'd come around on that, but the more you looked at it, you just go, you can't leave him off. You can't leave him off 13. I try to have zero

bias, and it's just weird to not have a net. Oh, by the way, you think there's not going to be more anti-Kyrie stuff, though? You think he's going to make it, though? I actually think he's going to make it. I do. The only other one that is like a mild semi-argument,

but I think it's Gobert, is just if you wanted to do Bam out of bio for the Gobert spot, which I think is pretty ludicrous. The advanced metrics with Gobert. Well, they're always, Gobert is like in another planet. His net rating

is 15.3. I mean, that's just like in the stratosphere. He's shot 67%. He's really good. I test-wise, I'm fine with it, but it's too bad for Bam. I know Bam's going to get some votes because I think some people are going to put Jokage and and bead together on the first team i would you would

yeah if you can do the donchage thing well you know we've already done this three times i don't want to do this argument again but do you think westbrook has a chance here 13 no all right but he made it last year, playing well for two months. Now the field is not the same because we have more people fighting for these spots. But I don't know. I think I wouldn't be so dismissive

if I were you. Okay. Can I ask you another question? Yeah. You mentioned the bonus thing. Everyone hates us in the media. Why does the media have the vote? I get why the NBA did it.

You can have the teams voting for it. What's the best way to try to reward these guys? Or do you just get rid of it? Do you get rid of the raises for all NBA off of these deals and these extensions? Because it basically was like a way to pay that much more to keep this caliber of a player. And the unintended consequence of the cap spike is that it's so much money that players clearly don't care to sacrifice that extra money, but everybody hates the media has anything to do with this.

So have you talked about this with other voters that clearly, I think there's more people that vote on it that are bothered by it than look at it as some cool version of power. Yeah, I think it's a big responsibility, but, and it's a big responsibility. And it's a little weird that it's in the media's hands. I guess I don't know what the solution would be other than to have a fourth team NBA

to just add a fourth one. And you could do it that way. I just think that would be ridiculous. I think they've gotten better at who gets votes, but I'm still surprised by who doesn't have votes. And in some cases who does, like you look at the list and it's pretty random,

especially when they're giving it to people who are traveling with teams, you know, and there's less of that though. There's way less of that. It used to be pretty tough because you were like, how can the home broadcast know what the hell is going on? Because they're not going on all the time. i mean unless you're really locked in whenever i look at the list of votes i'll never have one but i'll look at it and go yeah but you should have

one yeah i know i should i i know how serious i take it i know i doubt i wouldn't be last in the list of people that watch games there but there's usually like five or ten where i'm like this is a joke like this person shouldn't have it if a joke. Like this person shouldn't have it. If it's this important, this person shouldn't have the vote. And I can sound bitter. It's not being bitter. It's that, you know, we shouldn't have screw up certain years where you're like, this person has no clue what's going on. And they hold a, you know, one 100th of a vote on something that's really, really important. Well, they, they should. And I think they do do this sometimes pull votes when somebody is clearly not paying attention perfectly.

But the one thing I don't like, and it's kind of a bummer, is the group consensus stuff that we have now, where you can just go on the internet and read five articles or listen to two podcasts and then basically shape your ballot that way. We had a lot more trial and error with these ballots back in the day day where you would just have people like, here's my first team. It's Kyrie Irving, Bradley Beal, you know, and it would just be completely out of whack because they had nobody to kind of base off what everybody else was doing. Now it feels like everybody kind of knows what everybody else is doing and nobody wants to be crucified on Twitter because they did something really dumb. Another thing, though, is you had said maybe there should be a fourth team. The problem with that is that's five new guys that qualify for a massive bump.

They'll be like, well, you know, we didn't want to pay Terry Rozier $210 million, but we made a fourth team. Fourth team. What was the guy? Who was the guy who didn't pick Pedro? It was two guys. It was George king and lavelle neal was out of minnesota i remember that like it's my kids names um they left them off the top 10 of the mvp and king said he wouldn't do it because of pitchers and the fucking guy had like conan wells in his top 10s on previous ones so like this for the

kids listening right now this is like before internet really got rolling so you would see that two guys left pedro off because pedro was a dick to certain media members and they left him off and then it was in new york part of it and then george king said i don't vote for pitchers and then after digging they found that he had voted for two yankees in the past and people went crazy and that's why i've never forgotten it and then after digging they found that he had voted for two yankees in the past and people went crazy and that's why i've never forgotten it and then it was lavelle neal was the other one i forget what his argument was about it um the all-timer though the all-timer is your man uh freddie voting for iverson and not having shack oh yeah i forgot about that one because he was a Philly guy. Right. And he just

said, fuck it. I'm voting for Iverson. And so Shaq didn't win a unanimous, um, MVP, which then turned into some new way of, of shitting on Iverson, excuse me, shitting on Steph Curry, because Curry became the first unanimous guy and you were like okay so this is ridiculous hold on do you think Jokic should be the unanimous MVP well if we're all sitting here for a month saying

he should win it he's not going to be unanimous he's not he's not the unanimous thing is weird like what am I going to sit unanimous. He's not. He's not. I mean, the unanimous thing is weird. Like, what am I going to sit here and say? We're in agreement that he's the MVP, but I hope he only gets like 70%. So that means I want 30% of the vote to get it wrong

just to make it not look too dominant. Like, that seems kind of stupid. Do you think Curry is going to get a first place vote from any voter? Because I think he is. Yeah. Yeah. I think he 100% is going to get like 10 first place votes.

Think about it this way. Imagine this scenario. You're a person and you walk into a room with two people and you explain the thing to these two people. There's a really good chance between those two people. They're going to be like, yeah, but I don't know that you really said it. The other guy's going to look at him and be like, you didn't hear what he just said. And be like, well, that's not the way I took it.

That's two people. Now expand the exercise to a season of basketball with 100 people and you have to walk in and explain the season to them. Of course, there's going to be votes there that don't make any sense. There's a decent Curry case that is not going to push her over the top, but just like what he did with the teammates he had is, you know, and even like over and over again coming through in games like the one today um i could see a couple people talking themselves into

okay by the way i just want to make sure i get the name right here yeah because it was yeah fred hickman that's right because he was on cnn yeah and he voted iverson to be MVP 99-2000. So Shaq called him Fred Idiot Hickman. Shaq. All right, so playoffs. Tuesday, did you say they had the Charlotte-Indiana game as a 6.30 Eastern time start? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm planning accordingly. Followed by Celtics-Wizards, which, listen, I don't guarantee a lot on this podcast, but if you don Followed by Celtics-Wizards, which, listen, I don't guarantee a lot on this podcast, but if you don't think that Celtics-Wizards game will be a two-point game in the final minute, you're fooling yourself. It's the destiny of both of those teams. The Wizards will be up three with 50 seconds left.

Westbrook's going to throw it off somebody's face and the Celtics are going to something. And it'll just, it's going to be, you'll run the gamut of emotions watching it. Cause that's how, that's how Washington rolls. It's just the way it goes. Bertans does kill the Celtics. That's the thing that happens. Beal always does well. Tatum and Beal have a whole mano a mano St. Louis thing, which is fun. That'd be a great game. And then Wednesday, I guess San Antonio Memphis would start early too. And then it goes right to Warriors Lakers, which I think is going to be just an unbelievable night. We might have to go on locker room that night.

Yeah. Somebody just came to town. They were like, Hey, you can go to dinner on Wednesday. And of course I say yes. And then 10 seconds later, I'm like, what the hell are you doing? Like, that's the game. Like, I can't go to dinner. I can't go to dinner on wednesday and of course i say yes and then 10 seconds later i'm like what the hell are you doing like that's the game like i can't go to dinner i can't go to dinner that night whenever i think of burtons i'm so amazed by his shoulders like i thought you're gonna say 80 million contracts no i it would be amazing if you were like an x-man and charles xavier you'd be like what's what's that guy's deal like he's he's amazing in crowded hallways. He can turn, turn corners and barely get in anyone's way because of his shoulders. Hey,

one last thing before we go, I just forgot. It's just a crucial point. Lakers beat Phoenix. They're in the two, three. Yep. Playing. Yeah, no, I get it. Denver. Playing.

Yeah. No, I get it. Denver or Portland. Portland, who you have liked all season more than me. I'm, I'm,

I'm out. You're out. Are you so out that you think they can't beat Denver? I think anyone could be Denver. That's my whole point. Like, as much as I'm going, hey, this or that, I'm at a loss. Like, I feel way better about the East picks than I do the West picks. Well, my point is, we talked about how Philly had this just amazing clear road to the Eastern Finals now.

You could argue this worked out pretty well for the Lakers. They get to avoid Utah they get to avoid the Clippers I would say those are the two toughest teams for them to play in the West and they don't have to play either of them and basically they're going to be playing Denver or Portland and then Phoenix in the round before when Phoenix has nobody to handle Davis.

I mean, that matchup's a disaster for Phoenix. I feel bad for Chris Paul. So anyway, it feels like it's Lakers-Utah, and yet I just can't see Utah actually making the... I just can't see that in my head. Conference Finals, Lakers-Jazz. Utah actually making the I just can't see that in my head. A conference finals. Lakers Jazz. Now game three, Lakers

Jazz. I just can't see it and it makes me think something weird is going to happen. So maybe we will get Lakers Clippers. I feel bad for Chris Paul. I can't stop thinking about it.

I'm going to want them to win that series so bad. You think Chris Paul regrets that, like, pulling his hamstring so they could have been closer to the 3-7 pack? And then they could have had more malleability with just throwing games away like everybody else did? You're right there. You're right there at the one seed with those guys.

You know who Phoenix has to blame themselves because they had some close games the last couple weeks that they blew. They really had a legit chance to get the one seed and they blew it. And that's that. Mitchell didn't play the last few weeks and they still

couldn't catch him Rosillo you'll have a couple podcasts this week I'm going to be Tuesday and Thursday and then the big good fellas rewatchables goes up tomorrow in lieu of any basketball games Max Kellerman on Tuesday oh

I know I really like his radio show I don't agree with him all the time, but I, I just, I'm fired up because there's a bunch of stuff I've always wanted to ask him. We don't really know each other that well. You know, we weren't really, he was, they were in New York most of the time. And when they were in Bristol, we probably just looked at each other in the hallway and kept it moving. Cool. We forgot to mention Jalen having C-Web on countdown today. Yeah. I guess we can end on that. So, I mean, those guys didn't acknowledge, I mean, C-Web on Countdown today. Yeah. I guess we can end on that. So, I mean, those guys didn't acknowledge,

I mean, C-Web didn't acknowledge Jalen for years. Like, just wouldn't acknowledge him. And I remember Jalen and I did a podcast once when I was at Grantland about just about how fucked up it was because those guys grew up, like, grew up together. They were, you always hear, like,

that's my brother. Like, those guys were brothers and it fell apart over the course of time. And I didn't think it was reparable. And, uh, I, and I think cause you know, Jalen's mother passed. I don't know the story. I haven't talked to Jalen, but maybe C-Web reached out to him after that. And, um, I was just shocked cause I just had countdown on this morning because I wanted to see the playoff matchup stuff. And all of a sudden, Jalen was talking to C-Web. And I didn't think it was conceivable that it would ever happen. So I thought that was cool. Yeah, because you get older, man, and how tight they all were. Because Jalen, I remember when Jalen first started ESPN. I mean, he would get stuck with us on game night some nights and he'd roll by.

And then I started doing this segment with him where I would just be like, I think he was the first I played you didn't segment we ever did. Where I would be like, all right, I didn't play. I'm going to give you some concept that us on the outside think of or some question. And then you're going to answer it like, hey, I played you didn't. And then I'm going to set you straight hey i played you didn't and then i'm going to set you straight on what's true or not about it and it was immediate like jalen was so good as a storyteller because he just let it fly in a way that other guys just weren't comfortable like jalen was immediately comfortable in the role letting it fly and once he got polished you

know look he's had as good a run as an nba analyst at the company as anyone could have but whenever you got him talking about weber he was kind of he would be respectful even though he didn't want to be you know what i mean like you could tell there was some real stuff and he shared i'm sure he shared way more with you because you guys are a lot closer than he and i ever were but um it's to sound like I'm sticking up for him because I don't really know Weber at all. But it was kind of hard to not understand why Jalen was like, all right, whatever, dude. Like at that point, you know, where Jalen felt like,

you know, everybody feels like they're right when they're in an argument with the other person. But I remember we were at the finals. I think it was 2014 in Miami. Juwan was assistant on Miami and we had our set in the stands and Jalen went down to talk to Juwan who was talking to Chris Weber. And I watched it happen. Jalen walked all the way down. Right when he got like five feet away from them, C-Web just turned around. He turned his back on them and kind of pretended like he was whatever. And then Jalen did his whole thing with Juwan and did like a minute and he left because we had to go back in the air.

And then C-Web turned back around. That's how bad it was. So they hashed it out. Did Jalen care? Yes. Even that bothered him after it still had been bad for years that moment there the three of them together yeah look I mean I don't I don't want to Jalen I think we talked about on a podcast so I don't mind I don't mind telling the story but like you know I I think and granted C-Web probably had stuff that he thought there were reasons it happened.

Yeah, of course. But I think Jalen was really hurt by it. And I think the other guys from the Fab Five, same thing. Like, you know, the fact that for whatever reason, those guys drifted apart. And there's different theories on it. My theory was, I don't know if I'm right, but my theory was always like that timeout game was so painful to C-Web that he kind of naturally pull away you have this traumatic moment in your life

you kind of pull away from everybody who's involved with it a little bit maybe that and obviously they had the the legality issues yeah I think the booster thing had a lot to do with it because then they feel like Weber kind of went his own way on it and the rest of the guys were like you know

how could you do that? I mean, I can't. You know, I was funny because I was watching the UVM lacrosse game today against Maryland. Terp smoked him. But I was texting all the guys from the UVM team and every one of them was watching it, telling me like exactly what they were doing what the setup was and for guys that went to vermont like we're not from this school that has these programs where we just know like hey every year a couple different seasonal sports are going to be competing for something so just making the tournament for vermont lacrosse is a big deal and catlax as those call it and to

see these guys you know almost 25 years after they played together, graduated being so excited about it. And that's a stupid lacrosse team that nobody cares about. And you're part of the fab five and the impact that you had, because I mean, the idea that freshmen were going to get together and not only we want to talk about like this country has always had a really hard time with young athletes like having any kind of bravado you know there's obviously some race element to it too but it was who do these guys think they are and not only were they brash but they were that good and you know we can get into the not winning a title all that kind of stuff but can you imagine being one of those five guys for three decades now and part of this this historic

moment in in an athletic timeline and then having it that divided for this long like it would suck and the reason i bring up the lacrosse thing is only because i was seeing all of my friends and roommates how excited they were about this moment that most people listening to this didn't even know happened. And here's this Fab Five group that all of us knew about and watched religiously. And even if you didn't like it, you were watching it,

right? If you were rooting against them because of your own rooting interest in college hoops, and then to follow all their careers where they all, you know, for the most part, the best three guys were really successful in all their different areas. It was just weird.

It's just weird to think of being that close to somebody through the high school ranks and then to go to school together and accomplish what you accomplish and then be like, all right, as adults we're never going to be cool with each other. It's weird. Well, that's why I always thought, and whenever Jaylen and I talked about it, that's why I always thought it was going to work out.

They had too much history. And at some point the history wins out, especially as you get older and life changes and things happen to you and you start to kind of look at it and you go, what are we doing? So hopefully they got to that. I was, I was really delighted because, you know, obviously I have a long history with Jalen and this was a really important thing to him that he had this relationship that, you know, had kind of gone sideways. So it gives me hope. It gives me hope for people out there for fractured relationships. We got to go because my

battery's about to run out. Uh, Priscilla, great to see you as always. And, uh, I'll see you next Sunday night. We'll be doing this every Sunday from now on. I don't have.